Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[GuitarStv]

In all seriousness, I’m routinely shocked and frustrated that a dominant response to “we should build my bike-friendly infrastructure” is “but very few people cycle around here”.  It’s a chicken and egg thing.  Make it easy and safe to bike and suddenly your city is filled with cyclists. This has happened over and over in cities small and large. The hard part is carving out the space and making routes contiguous.

Do you know of some examples of a bike-friendly infrastructure successfully being retrofitted into a less dense (semi-rural) community?  I know the economics are more challenging -- the miles of roadway per potential cyclist/pedestrian ratio is unfavorable compared to a more densely populated area.  But the number of miles driven on short trips per person is also higher since everything is more spread out.  So even relatively few people deciding to cycle ~5 miles to the nearest grocery store/library/pizza shop/etc. would have a significant effect in terms of avoided emissions (and improved health and fitness!).

I like bike infrastructure as much as the next guy (more maybe?), but am not sure that this would pan out as expected.

In a lot of rural areas the people who are going cycle somewhere will do so whether there's infrastructure or not.  Traffic is so sparse that it's often a pleasant/relaxing experience just being on the road.  I'd take cycling near my dad's farm over cycling where there's a quite a bit of bike infrastructure in Toronto's downtown core any day of the week.

(Obviously this doesn't hold true where posted limits are ridiculously high, where there's a huge amount of traffic even though the area is rural, or where there's a culture of attacking cyclists with vehicles.  I've ridden in each such place, and not enjoyed the experience.)

[Just Joe]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

[AlanStache]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

Is this not what the "backlash" is about 15 min cities?  I have resisted clicking on anything related to this topic, seemed to be looking for trouble. 

[pecunia]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

This may be my oddest comment yet.  I think better bike paths to businesses could be used as an argument for convenience.   As the business is more convenient to customers, they may choose the local hardware store, for example, rather than take the car 15 miles to Home Depot.  Basically, I'm saying bike infrastructure could be good for business.  Above all else right wing folks support small business so it's rather possible that the "culture war" may pass this one over in favor of pragmatism.

[nereo]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

Again - there seems to be this persistent and false narrative that "progress on bike infrastructure won't work in the US".  This ignores multiple places where it already has worked, and these locations are not just in deep blue states. For areas where environmentalism is seen negatively the simple approach is to discuss all the personal benefits a walkable/bikeable area offers, such as less traffic, less ground-level pollution and quicker ways to get through town.

[LennStar]

Do you know of some examples of a bike-friendly infrastructure successfully being retrofitted into a less dense (semi-rural) community?

There is probably a difference in what you consider rural, but that applies to about 2/3 of the Netherlands.

Though I am not sure what you mean with retrofitted. In rural areas is enough space to build a few path without having to dig up old houses or change streets.

And no, on a street where cars drive it is definitely not nice to ride. Especially when it's dark. (btw. that's why in the Netherlands rural streets without seperate infrastructure have a speed limit of 60km/h or even lower. Only the roads that connect villages or towns are faster, but they ahve seperate infrastructure.)

[Frugal Lizard]

I was astonished by the number of cyclists using Bloor Street after the start of the pilot project adding cycling lanes to this major east-west corridor.  All the background research is outlined here: https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2017/pw/bgrd/backgroundfile-107582.pdf

What is surprising is the impact on sales in the businesses along the street, although I shouldn't be surprised as I am more likely to stop and make a purchase on my bike because stopping is so much easier when you don't have to find a parking spot.

"The Moneris data demonstrated that while average per-transaction size has marginally decreased in the pilot area, it is on-trend with other parts of the City. Total customer spending in the Bloor Street pilot area increased more than in the area surrounding the pilot and more than in the Danforth Avenue control area."

[AlanStache]

Wait, so cars dont spend money but people do? /s

[Bird In Hand]

Do you know of some examples of a bike-friendly infrastructure successfully being retrofitted into a less dense (semi-rural) community?

There is probably a difference in what you consider rural, but that applies to about 2/3 of the Netherlands.

Though I am not sure what you mean with retrofitted. In rural areas is enough space to build a few path without having to dig up old houses or change streets.

And no, on a street where cars drive it is definitely not nice to ride. Especially when it's dark. (btw. that's why in the Netherlands rural streets without seperate infrastructure have a speed limit of 60km/h or even lower. Only the roads that connect villages or towns are faster, but they ahve seperate infrastructure.)

I'm not sure how similar our definitions of rural are.  My town has about 40 people per square km, and is a little larger than 100 square km.  That is pretty typical in the region where I live.

By retrofitting I was thinking about how bike paths would affect the existing road drainage systems, since most roads here have ditches on either side.  Also how it would work logistically with snow removal (right now the plows push the snow right where I imagine the paths would go).  I suppose most people would just not be able to use the paths during the winter.

In the rural areas I'm familiar with, roads usually abut private lots or wetland pretty much everywhere.  The towns technically can use a couple meters on either side of the road (e.g. for utility poles and dumping all the snow), but I'm not sure if there's enough space for a bike path in many cases.  In fact the utility poles -- power, cable, fiber -- would definitely be in the way of any roadside path, now that I think of it!

[pecunia]

I suppose money is one of the big hangups to bike lanes.  At least in part gas taxes pay for roads.  The argument could be made that users of the big trucks who pay the most gas tax do not want to subsidize freeloading cyclists.  On the other hand, I would think replacing an F-350 truck with a bike would surely not cause the same wear and tear.  If enough persons substituted a bike for a pickup truck the road surface would last considerably longer.

Bike lanes are paid by property tax where I live.  I have a hunch that many cyclists would volunteer free labor to build bike lanes.

[TomTX]

This may be my oddest comment yet.  I think better bike paths to businesses could be used as an argument for convenience.   As the business is more convenient to customers, they may choose the local hardware store, for example, rather than take the car 15 miles to Home Depot.  Basically, I'm saying bike infrastructure could be good for business.  Above all else right wing folks support small business so it's rather possible that the "culture war" may pass this one over in favor of pragmatism.

It's not odd. There's a fair amount of scientific research which shows that installing good walkability and bikeability is great for local businesses and local property values.

[AlanStache]

FB friend shared a reginal map of all the bike racks and public bike repair stations - it was basically a map of the desirable neighborhoods with places to go and do things at.  The hipster area and cool down town were covered - suburban big box store areas, not so much.  I have some thought to overlay it with some strava bike route heat maps. 

[BuffaloStache]

Sorry for the delay- here's part 2 of my EV Test Drives series.


---***VW ID.4***---
Test drove in December 2022.
1. Overall Impressions:
Solidly built car. Very tight turning radius given the size. Definitely a 'bigger' vehicle, but not huge. Side view mirror issue when driving- after putting car in reverse, mirrors would not go back to normal position (explained to me after fact, not really an issue). Infotainment and climate control buttons are not intuitive, and take a while to get used to. I think any driver would eventually get used to this, but it would take time. Car does not have true one pedal driving (that I'm aware of? and the dealer didn't know when I asked), but does have regen braking mode. Adaptive cruise control and Lane assist work great. Heated steering wheel, power adjust seating, heated front seats available on the higher trim levels ($48k+), but not on basic trim. Not a lot of buttons- everything is done through infotainment touch screen and usually buried several layers deep. Trunk space is meh.

No spare tire, but patch kit and 3 yr roadside (up to 36k mi included when you buy).

Pro S and above trims  have power adjustable driver seat, everything below does not.

For some things (rubber mats, garage door buttons), you'll likely get the car without and then have to come back to get installed/buy parts separately. VW just isn't making the cars with them now bc they are still selling like hotcakes without them.

Has a weird but cool, "clean the cabin air" feature where you can do a quick (~5min) blast of the air thru a filtration system. May only be on the higher trim models?


2. Range / In cold weather?:
RWD- 277 mi {MODEL I DROVE}
AWD- 250-255mi  ... 10-15% range reduction is what dealer sees in cold weather.


3. Wait List duration:
- 4 months is typical, but can be up to 8.

4. Any Warranty offered, or at-home charging subsidy?:
3 yr/36k mi roadside assistance.

Lifetime power train warranty (just motors).
Bumper.to.Bumper lifetime warranty
--- an additional ~$2900 if you finance, $4900 for cash only {this may be dealer specific}.

5. What Charging Plug type and any charging networks/public chargers?:
CCS- ~125kW

6. Battery (kWh capacity?) Thermal Management, Maintenance?

Battery has liquid cooling.

Battery check every 10k mi, they do it at Dealer. Tire rotation, brake pads, windshield wipers/fluid. That's it.

7. MSRP: I was given a print out. But most models were above $50k, especially for longer range and/or AWD options (all models with power adjustable seats were ~$54k and up).

8. What Gov subsidies is this car eligible for?:
Off the record; dealer was very cagey when I asked this. He said, After Jan 1st I'd bet the fed rebate will be $3750 (That has since changed).

11. Pre-Owned or Leasing options?: At this dealer, they only had one model- a 2021 pro for ~$43k. Not a lot of savings.

[StashingAway]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

This may be my oddest comment yet.  I think better bike paths to businesses could be used as an argument for convenience.   As the business is more convenient to customers, they may choose the local hardware store, for example, rather than take the car 15 miles to Home Depot.  Basically, I'm saying bike infrastructure could be good for business.  Above all else right wing folks support small business so it's rather possible that the "culture war" may pass this one over in favor of pragmatism.

IMO, it's all about presentation anyway. StrongTowns is one of the prominent voices in walkable cities, and the founder is an admitted conservative, at least on national elections. It certainly could be taken up by culture wars if Fox News caught wind, but because these are local decisions made by local governments and citizens, it is much easier to present the practical and financial benefits to making cities less car reliant. If you start down the road of trying to build community based, prosperous, safe, fiscally responsible cities (all things that traditional conservatives support in spades), you end up with much more pedestrian friendly city centers without even bringing up bikes. Turns out infrastructure per mile for pedestrians is much cheaper to maintain, businesses that don't have to have minimum parking requirements can bring in more tax $ per acre, gathering places for social events goes up, and the list goes on. This is all arrived at by fiscal analysis of the long term health of a city, not some culturally pushed green agenda.

I would also like to add that from a culture wars standpoint, the "freedom loving" crowd already has their mind made up in many cases, but if they are interested in discussion one can point out that having car-centric infrastructure is the opposite of freedom because it forces people to own cars on roads supported by government subsidies. Freedom should be to own a car or not- your choice. I don't want the government spending my tax $$ on roads to new rich suburbs.

The most recent StrontTowns video outlines changes made to Fayetteville, Arkansas (notable ones from 2015) to increase local businesses in their downtown. This is a city that votes purple/red - in the last election the republicans took every race they had a candidate for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUhOFUQDLQk

[Cranky]

Do you know of some examples of a bike-friendly infrastructure successfully being retrofitted into a less dense (semi-rural) community?

There is probably a difference in what you consider rural, but that applies to about 2/3 of the Netherlands.

Though I am not sure what you mean with retrofitted. In rural areas is enough space to build a few path without having to dig up old houses or change streets.

And no, on a street where cars drive it is definitely not nice to ride. Especially when it's dark. (btw. that's why in the Netherlands rural streets without seperate infrastructure have a speed limit of 60km/h or even lower. Only the roads that connect villages or towns are faster, but they ahve seperate infrastructure.)

I'm not sure how similar our definitions of rural are.  My town has about 40 people per square km, and is a little larger than 100 square km.  That is pretty typical in the region where I live.

By retrofitting I was thinking about how bike paths would affect the existing road drainage systems, since most roads here have ditches on either side.  Also how it would work logistically with snow removal (right now the plows push the snow right where I imagine the paths would go).  I suppose most people would just not be able to use the paths during the winter.

In the rural areas I'm familiar with, roads usually abut private lots or wetland pretty much everywhere.  The towns technically can use a couple meters on either side of the road (e.g. for utility poles and dumping all the snow), but I'm not sure if there's enough space for a bike path in many cases.  In fact the utility poles -- power, cable, fiber -- would definitely be in the way of any roadside path, now that I think of it!

In my county there are bike *paths* in fairly rural areas. They are typically on the other side of the drainage ditch and all the bike paths are plowed by little atvs with a snow blade.

Bike *lanes* are a snowy mess because the snow does get piled up there, but the actual bike paths are cleared as fast as the main roads. We have found that the residential streets in our neighborhood are too icy for us to bike (which is a personal decision) but the bike paths are great.

[alcon835]

Paris doubled the % of biked trips in 3 years with a strong upwards trend. Corona helped, but it was more things like creating acutal wide bike paths.

I haven’t been to Paris yet - that’s good to know. It follows the trend though - wherever cities build dedicated end-to-end paths, cycling goes way up.

Weird.  It's almost like most cyclists don't enjoy being terrorized by motorists.  :P

..or that the pool of potential cyclists who just don’t want to feel like they could be hit by a car on any given ride is enormous.

In all seriousness, I’m routinely shocked and frustrated that a dominant response to “we should build my bike-friendly infrastructure” is “but very few people cycle around here”.  It’s a chicken and egg thing.  Make it easy and safe to bike and suddenly your city is filled with cyclists. This has happened over and over in cities small and large. The hard part is carving out the space and making routes contiguous.

This is my issue. My neighborhood is GREAT for biking (albeit a little hilly) and there is tons of stuff close by for us to bike too. But the sidewalks are in disrepair and there are no bike paths and people speed through the neighborhood and there are several extremely busy roads nearby.

I have a bike, but if I want to use it safely, I'm going to have to move. Not out of the question, but it has significantly slowed my uptake of biking regularly.

[lemonlyman]

Kia unveiled the EV9 today. I know bikes are the rage in here right now, but for bigger families who want an EV with spacious 3rd row seating, it looks pretty good. Starts at $50,000. Wouldn't be eligible for the US tax credit as of now but not many options in that category.

[Just Joe]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

Is this not what the "backlash" is about 15 min cities?  I have resisted clicking on anything related to this topic, seemed to be looking for trouble.

Could you reword the first part of your sentence? Is "15 min cities" a YT channel?

Saw this over the weekend:

https://electrek.co/2023/03/13/why-fox-news-wants-you-to-be-afraid-of-electric-bikes/

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/how-e-bikes-exploding-killing-people

[Just Joe]

I would also like to add that from a culture wars standpoint, the "freedom loving" crowd already has their mind made up in many cases, but if they are interested in discussion one can point out that having car-centric infrastructure is the opposite of freedom because it forces people to own cars on roads supported by government subsidies. Freedom should be to own a car or not- your choice. I don't want the government spending my tax $$ on roads to new rich suburbs.

All good points. Around my part of the country the Republicans say one thing and do another. Freedom is an important theme to them except they act to limit people's choices - for example.

I think we need to sneak up on these towns and their conservatives. Make the changes bit by bit. ;) Sort of like "big gov't is bad" but we sure like roads, fire departments and sending our kids to school.

[LennStar]

I think we need to sneak up on these towns and their conservatives. Make the changes bit by bit. ;) Sort of like "big gov't is bad" but we sure like roads, fire departments and sending our kids to school.

Big government is bad, so let's start building smaller bike paths instead of big roads! That also means less taxes, yeah!

Is "15 min cities" a YT channel?

The 15 min city is a concept that everything you need has to be reachable within 15 minutes.

[Just Joe]

Thanks Lennstar. "15 min cities" makes perfect sense. Now it is time for another coffee... 

[BuffaloStache]

...
Could you reword the first part of your sentence? Is "15 min cities" a YT channel?

Saw this over the weekend:

https://electrek.co/2023/03/13/why-fox-news-wants-you-to-be-afraid-of-electric-bikes/

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/how-e-bikes-exploding-killing-people

My in-laws aren't  full blown freedom lovin', but they tend to lean in that direction. When I started talking about getting an electric car as my next vehicle ~5+ years ago, I was met with many comments like "well, those cars tend to catch fire and the firemen don't know how to put them out!". They really fed off of the anti-EV (and now anti-e-bike) narratives on Fox news, and had a field day with the Chevy Bolt battery recall. Fast forward to this year, and I got my Chevy Bolt EUV. I figured the best thing I can do is keep my mouth shut around them, quietly enjoy my EV and show them that [insert doomsday EV ownership scenario of the week featured on Fox] doesn't occur to the vast vast majority of EV owners {battery catches fire for no reason, entire electric grid fails from over-demand, battery spontaneously discharges while parked and you have no range left, etc. etc.}.    :)

[nereo]

Saw an interesting summary on EV adaptation in the US; 
At the end of Jan 2023 an additional 35,000 Level 2 public chargers nationwide had gone online in the previous 12 months, and 7% of all new passenger car sales were EVs. Projections for the forward-facing 12 months are that an even greater number of L2 chargers will be added this year.

Personal anecdote - in my region it's wild how many L2 chargers have been added in the last 3 years. When we moved to SmallTown® (pop. <5,000) in 2021 there were 6 public chargers, now there are 28, with an additional 10 planned to be in service before June in the municipal lots.

[pecunia]

...
Could you reword the first part of your sentence? Is "15 min cities" a YT channel?

Saw this over the weekend:

https://electrek.co/2023/03/13/why-fox-news-wants-you-to-be-afraid-of-electric-bikes/

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/how-e-bikes-exploding-killing-people

My in-laws aren't  full blown freedom lovin', but they tend to lean in that direction. When I started talking about getting an electric car as my next vehicle ~5+ years ago, I was met with many comments like "well, those cars tend to catch fire and the firemen don't know how to put them out!". They really fed off of the anti-EV (and now anti-e-bike) narratives on Fox news, and had a field day with the Chevy Bolt battery recall. Fast forward to this year, and I got my Chevy Bolt EUV. I figured the best thing I can do is keep my mouth shut around them, quietly enjoy my EV and show them that [insert doomsday EV ownership scenario of the week featured on Fox] doesn't occur to the vast vast majority of EV owners {battery catches fire for no reason, entire electric grid fails from over-demand, battery spontaneously discharges while parked and you have no range left, etc. etc.}.    :)

I don't have Cable TV.  I guess I am better off without FOX News.  It seems odd.  Many of their viewers are old.  An electric bike could do a lot of good for them.  It's almost a disservice.  This is borderline FAKE news.  Maybe people just like to be scared. 

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/how-e-bikes-exploding-killing-people

The pictures are great.

[TomTX]

I don't have Cable TV.  I guess I am better off without FOX News.  It seems odd.  Many of their viewers are old.  An electric bike could do a lot of good for them.  It's almost a disservice.  This is borderline FAKE news.  Maybe people just like to be scared.

What gives you the impression that anything FOX News does is for the benefit of their viewers?

[AlanStache]

...

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/how-e-bikes-exploding-killing-people

I love the "they" use ebikes for delivery angle, like no way a reader could be using an ebike to get around. 

[FINate]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

Again - there seems to be this persistent and false narrative that "progress on bike infrastructure won't work in the US".  This ignores multiple places where it already has worked, and these locations are not just in deep blue states. For areas where environmentalism is seen negatively the simple approach is to discuss all the personal benefits a walkable/bikeable area offers, such as less traffic, less ground-level pollution and quicker ways to get through town.

Agreed. It can and has worked in certain places.

Nor is this primarily a culture war left vs. right issue. From what I can tell it's more of a generational, at least in the western half of the US. The boomers I know, on the left and right, value cars and car centric cities. They want to drive places, park for free with minimal walking (i.e. strip malls). My guess is that this is related to their formative years in the mid-twentieth century when cars were a symbol of freedom and mobility. Oh, and thinly veiled classism and racism, with bikes viewed as transportation for poor people and/or people we don't want in our neighborhoods. Which also dovetails with white flight. So make homes expensive (exclusionary zoning) and force everyone to own a car to keep "undesirables" out without have to use overtly classist or racist rhetoric. Again, from what I can tell this is a bipartisan sentiment among the older generations.

Whereas younger generations are less enamored with cars and low density housing (higher density being inherently more bikeable/walkable). There's hope for improvement as the younger generations gain political power. Even here in deep red Idaho the metro area of Boise is making a sustained effort to build a network of protected and connected biking/walking paths. Older homeowners (esp. NIMBYs) bitch and complain about it, but so far they don't have enough sway to stop it.

[BicycleB]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

Again - there seems to be this persistent and false narrative that "progress on bike infrastructure won't work in the US".  This ignores multiple places where it already has worked, and these locations are not just in deep blue states. For areas where environmentalism is seen negatively the simple approach is to discuss all the personal benefits a walkable/bikeable area offers, such as less traffic, less ground-level pollution and quicker ways to get through town.

Agreed. It can and has worked in certain places.

Nor is this primarily a culture war left vs. right issue. From what I can tell it's more of a generational, at least in the western half of the US. The boomers I know, on the left and right, value cars and car centric cities. They want to drive places, park for free with minimal walking (i.e. strip malls). My guess is that this is related to their formative years in the mid-twentieth century when cars were a symbol of freedom and mobility. Oh, and thinly veiled classism and racism, with bikes viewed as transportation for poor people and/or people we don't want in our neighborhoods. Which also dovetails with white flight. So make homes expensive (exclusionary zoning) and force everyone to own a car to keep "undesirables" out without have to use overtly classist or racist rhetoric. Again, from what I can tell this is a bipartisan sentiment among the older generations.

Whereas younger generations are less enamored with cars and low density housing (higher density being inherently more bikeable/walkable). There's hope for improvement as the younger generations gain political power. Even here in deep red Idaho the metro area of Boise is making a sustained effort to build a network of protected and connected biking/walking paths. Older homeowners (esp. NIMBYs) bitch and complain about it, but so far they don't have enough sway to stop it.

Very interesting observations about the generation gap on car attitudes, @FINate. Keeping this in mind.

[GuitarStv]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

Again - there seems to be this persistent and false narrative that "progress on bike infrastructure won't work in the US".  This ignores multiple places where it already has worked, and these locations are not just in deep blue states. For areas where environmentalism is seen negatively the simple approach is to discuss all the personal benefits a walkable/bikeable area offers, such as less traffic, less ground-level pollution and quicker ways to get through town.

Agreed. It can and has worked in certain places.

Nor is this primarily a culture war left vs. right issue. From what I can tell it's more of a generational, at least in the western half of the US. The boomers I know, on the left and right, value cars and car centric cities. They want to drive places, park for free with minimal walking (i.e. strip malls). My guess is that this is related to their formative years in the mid-twentieth century when cars were a symbol of freedom and mobility. Oh, and thinly veiled classism and racism, with bikes viewed as transportation for poor people and/or people we don't want in our neighborhoods. Which also dovetails with white flight. So make homes expensive (exclusionary zoning) and force everyone to own a car to keep "undesirables" out without have to use overtly classist or racist rhetoric. Again, from what I can tell this is a bipartisan sentiment among the older generations.

Whereas younger generations are less enamored with cars and low density housing (higher density being inherently more bikeable/walkable). There's hope for improvement as the younger generations gain political power. Even here in deep red Idaho the metro area of Boise is making a sustained effort to build a network of protected and connected biking/walking paths. Older homeowners (esp. NIMBYs) bitch and complain about it, but so far they don't have enough sway to stop it.

Very interesting observations about the generation gap on car attitudes, @FINate. Keeping this in mind.

To be fair to them . . . a lot of older people have mobility issues that make using public transit and general walking/cycling much more difficult.  Hip problems, knee problems, being fat, heart problems . . . and then you add in the media driven general state of fear of being attacked.  It doesn't surprise me that a lot of older people want to cling on to cars.  Having to walk an extra couple kilometers is not big deal to a fit 20 year old.  It could make a trip a real ordeal to an unfit 65 year old though.

[FINate]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

Again - there seems to be this persistent and false narrative that "progress on bike infrastructure won't work in the US".  This ignores multiple places where it already has worked, and these locations are not just in deep blue states. For areas where environmentalism is seen negatively the simple approach is to discuss all the personal benefits a walkable/bikeable area offers, such as less traffic, less ground-level pollution and quicker ways to get through town.

Agreed. It can and has worked in certain places.

Nor is this primarily a culture war left vs. right issue. From what I can tell it's more of a generational, at least in the western half of the US. The boomers I know, on the left and right, value cars and car centric cities. They want to drive places, park for free with minimal walking (i.e. strip malls). My guess is that this is related to their formative years in the mid-twentieth century when cars were a symbol of freedom and mobility. Oh, and thinly veiled classism and racism, with bikes viewed as transportation for poor people and/or people we don't want in our neighborhoods. Which also dovetails with white flight. So make homes expensive (exclusionary zoning) and force everyone to own a car to keep "undesirables" out without have to use overtly classist or racist rhetoric. Again, from what I can tell this is a bipartisan sentiment among the older generations.

Whereas younger generations are less enamored with cars and low density housing (higher density being inherently more bikeable/walkable). There's hope for improvement as the younger generations gain political power. Even here in deep red Idaho the metro area of Boise is making a sustained effort to build a network of protected and connected biking/walking paths. Older homeowners (esp. NIMBYs) bitch and complain about it, but so far they don't have enough sway to stop it.

Very interesting observations about the generation gap on car attitudes, @FINate. Keeping this in mind.

To be fair to them . . . a lot of older people have mobility issues that make using public transit and general walking/cycling much more difficult.  Hip problems, knee problems, being fat, heart problems . . . and then you add in the media driven general state of fear of being attacked.  It doesn't surprise me that a lot of older people want to cling on to cars.  Having to walk an extra couple kilometers is not big deal to a fit 20 year old.  It could make a trip a real ordeal to an unfit 65 year old though.

True, but this was something I observed long before this cohort was old enough to have mobility issues. One wonders how many of these health issues in old age are made worse by sitting in cars and getting insufficient exercise during mid-life. I know older guys that drive everywhere and chronically overeat, and of course they're overweight and have bad hips and knees. Whereas guys the same age that walk most places in the city and watch their diet (nothing crazy, just being careful with portions and quality) are in much better health. Of course, we're all eventually get old and worn out (if we're fortunate to live to old age), but by the time this happens most people shouldn't be driving anyway.

[pecunia]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

Again - there seems to be this persistent and false narrative that "progress on bike infrastructure won't work in the US".  This ignores multiple places where it already has worked, and these locations are not just in deep blue states. For areas where environmentalism is seen negatively the simple approach is to discuss all the personal benefits a walkable/bikeable area offers, such as less traffic, less ground-level pollution and quicker ways to get through town.

Agreed. It can and has worked in certain places.

Nor is this primarily a culture war left vs. right issue. From what I can tell it's more of a generational, at least in the western half of the US. The boomers I know, on the left and right, value cars and car centric cities. They want to drive places, park for free with minimal walking (i.e. strip malls). My guess is that this is related to their formative years in the mid-twentieth century when cars were a symbol of freedom and mobility. Oh, and thinly veiled classism and racism, with bikes viewed as transportation for poor people and/or people we don't want in our neighborhoods. Which also dovetails with white flight. So make homes expensive (exclusionary zoning) and force everyone to own a car to keep "undesirables" out without have to use overtly classist or racist rhetoric. Again, from what I can tell this is a bipartisan sentiment among the older generations.

Whereas younger generations are less enamored with cars and low density housing (higher density being inherently more bikeable/walkable). There's hope for improvement as the younger generations gain political power. Even here in deep red Idaho the metro area of Boise is making a sustained effort to build a network of protected and connected biking/walking paths. Older homeowners (esp. NIMBYs) bitch and complain about it, but so far they don't have enough sway to stop it.

Very interesting observations about the generation gap on car attitudes, @FINate. Keeping this in mind.

To be fair to them . . . a lot of older people have mobility issues that make using public transit and general walking/cycling much more difficult.  Hip problems, knee problems, being fat, heart problems . . . and then you add in the media driven general state of fear of being attacked.  It doesn't surprise me that a lot of older people want to cling on to cars.  Having to walk an extra couple kilometers is not big deal to a fit 20 year old.  It could make a trip a real ordeal to an unfit 65 year old though.

True, but this was something I observed long before this cohort was old enough to have mobility issues. One wonders how many of these health issues in old age are made worse by sitting in cars and getting insufficient exercise during mid-life. I know older guys that drive everywhere and chronically overeat, and of course they're overweight and have bad hips and knees. Whereas guys the same age that walk most places in the city and watch their diet (nothing crazy, just being careful with portions and quality) are in much better health. Of course, we're all eventually get old and worn out (if we're fortunate to live to old age), but by the time this happens most people shouldn't be driving anyway.

In case anyone missed it.  Mr. Money Mustache's latest blog kinda sorta deals with this..  Although the blog cuts out all cars, including electric.

[nereo]

A couple of thoughts:

• We don’t need some mega-personality* to transition our cities and towns.
  

I expect any progress in the USA would be stymied by the "culture wars". In addition to the liberals are coming for your guns, the new message would be the liberals are coming for your homes and cars...[/list]

Again - there seems to be this persistent and false narrative that "progress on bike infrastructure won't work in the US".  This ignores multiple places where it already has worked, and these locations are not just in deep blue states. For areas where environmentalism is seen negatively the simple approach is to discuss all the personal benefits a walkable/bikeable area offers, such as less traffic, less ground-level pollution and quicker ways to get through town.

Agreed. It can and has worked in certain places.

Nor is this primarily a culture war left vs. right issue. From what I can tell it's more of a generational, at least in the western half of the US. The boomers I know, on the left and right, value cars and car centric cities. They want to drive places, park for free with minimal walking (i.e. strip malls). My guess is that this is related to their formative years in the mid-twentieth century when cars were a symbol of freedom and mobility. Oh, and thinly veiled classism and racism, with bikes viewed as transportation for poor people and/or people we don't want in our neighborhoods. Which also dovetails with white flight. So make homes expensive (exclusionary zoning) and force everyone to own a car to keep "undesirables" out without have to use overtly classist or racist rhetoric. Again, from what I can tell this is a bipartisan sentiment among the older generations.

Whereas younger generations are less enamored with cars and low density housing (higher density being inherently more bikeable/walkable). There's hope for improvement as the younger generations gain political power. Even here in deep red Idaho the metro area of Boise is making a sustained effort to build a network of protected and connected biking/walking paths. Older homeowners (esp. NIMBYs) bitch and complain about it, but so far they don't have enough sway to stop it.

Very interesting observations about the generation gap on car attitudes, @FINate. Keeping this in mind.

To be fair to them . . . a lot of older people have mobility issues that make using public transit and general walking/cycling much more difficult.  Hip problems, knee problems, being fat, heart problems . . . and then you add in the media driven general state of fear of being attacked.  It doesn't surprise me that a lot of older people want to cling on to cars.  Having to walk an extra couple kilometers is not big deal to a fit 20 year old.  It could make a trip a real ordeal to an unfit 65 year old though.

True, but this was something I observed long before this cohort was old enough to have mobility issues. One wonders how many of these health issues in old age are made worse by sitting in cars and getting insufficient exercise during mid-life. I know older guys that drive everywhere and chronically overeat, and of course they're overweight and have bad hips and knees. Whereas guys the same age that walk most places in the city and watch their diet (nothing crazy, just being careful with portions and quality) are in much better health. Of course, we're all eventually get old and worn out (if we're fortunate to live to old age), but by the time this happens most people shouldn't be driving anyway.

It’s both, and it’s a generational feedback loop. In the US and Canada it’s rare to see someone over 55 on a commuter bike, and many don’t even own a bicycle but do own a luxury pickup of suv. There’s a negative attitude from boomers about people who bike - the stereotype is of an eccentric white man on a recumbent with an orange visibility flag.
 In much of Europe and Asia it’s commonplace. Stand by any bike path for a few minutes and you’ll see plenty of older people go by, including middle class

[Just Joe]

...
Could you reword the first part of your sentence? Is "15 min cities" a YT channel?

Saw this over the weekend:

https://electrek.co/2023/03/13/why-fox-news-wants-you-to-be-afraid-of-electric-bikes/

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/how-e-bikes-exploding-killing-people

My in-laws aren't  full blown freedom lovin', but they tend to lean in that direction. When I started talking about getting an electric car as my next vehicle ~5+ years ago, I was met with many comments like "well, those cars tend to catch fire and the firemen don't know how to put them out!". They really fed off of the anti-EV (and now anti-e-bike) narratives on Fox news, and had a field day with the Chevy Bolt battery recall. Fast forward to this year, and I got my Chevy Bolt EUV. I figured the best thing I can do is keep my mouth shut around them, quietly enjoy my EV and show them that [insert doomsday EV ownership scenario of the week featured on Fox] doesn't occur to the vast vast majority of EV owners {battery catches fire for no reason, entire electric grid fails from over-demand, battery spontaneously discharges while parked and you have no range left, etc. etc.}.    :)

I took a 12.8 mile hily ebike ride at lunch today. Was really, really nice b/c of the weather and everything in bloom. Bike odometer rolled past 3710 miles.

I was thinking a little about the people I know best who hoover up the FoxNews "stories" (can't call it news). Each and every one of them seems particularly susceptible to rumors. The ones I know won't read an in depth article from a mainstream information source, they want someone to tell them the story (rumor). Summarize it. Of course FB is a valid source too. Back when so many of us were home staying safe - these same people gobbled up all the vaccine rumors and basically spent alot of time catastrophizing.

Naturally most of what they repeated never came to pass. And it didn't matter. They had gossip to share, rumors to commiserate about, something to preach about (darn liberals!) and once that topic was put to rest, they went on to the next one. Never an apology to anyone - "sorry if I alarmed anyone. Sorry that I was wildly incorrect about those liberals.

I work with a strong conservative leaning coworker. There is a timeline on everything coworker repeats. It'll reach the "news" and a couple of days later coworker will start repeating it to everyone and anyone they talk to for more than a few minutes. Then the topic withers and is replaced with the next one. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Someone ought to document the progression of conservative topics and the outcome. Bullet shortages, Obama is coming for your guns, diesel shortages will bring the country to a halt, bathrooms, trans people, pedophiles, her emails, his laptop, etc, etc. They are afraid of everything...

[pecunia]

...
Could you reword the first part of your sentence? Is "15 min cities" a YT channel?

Saw this over the weekend:

https://electrek.co/2023/03/13/why-fox-news-wants-you-to-be-afraid-of-electric-bikes/

https://www.foxnews.com/tech/how-e-bikes-exploding-killing-people

My in-laws aren't  full blown freedom lovin', but they tend to lean in that direction. When I started talking about getting an electric car as my next vehicle ~5+ years ago, I was met with many comments like "well, those cars tend to catch fire and the firemen don't know how to put them out!". They really fed off of the anti-EV (and now anti-e-bike) narratives on Fox news, and had a field day with the Chevy Bolt battery recall. Fast forward to this year, and I got my Chevy Bolt EUV. I figured the best thing I can do is keep my mouth shut around them, quietly enjoy my EV and show them that [insert doomsday EV ownership scenario of the week featured on Fox] doesn't occur to the vast vast majority of EV owners {battery catches fire for no reason, entire electric grid fails from over-demand, battery spontaneously discharges while parked and you have no range left, etc. etc.}.    :)

I took a 12.8 mile hily ebike ride at lunch today. Was really, really nice b/c of the weather and everything in bloom. Bike odometer rolled past 3710 miles.

I was thinking a little about the people I know best who hoover up the FoxNews "stories" (can't call it news). Each and every one of them seems particularly susceptible to rumors. The ones I know won't read an in depth article from a mainstream information source, they want someone to tell them the story (rumor). Summarize it. Of course FB is a valid source too. Back when so many of us were home staying safe - these same people gobbled up all the vaccine rumors and basically spent alot of time catastrophizing.

Naturally most of what they repeated never came to pass. And it didn't matter. They had gossip to share, rumors to commiserate about, something to preach about (darn liberals!) and once that topic was put to rest, they went on to the next one. Never an apology to anyone - "sorry if I alarmed anyone. Sorry that I was wildly incorrect about those liberals.

I work with a strong conservative leaning coworker. There is a timeline on everything coworker repeats. It'll reach the "news" and a couple of days later coworker will start repeating it to everyone and anyone they talk to for more than a few minutes. Then the topic withers and is replaced with the next one. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Someone ought to document the progression of conservative topics and the outcome. Bullet shortages, Obama is coming for your guns, diesel shortages will bring the country to a halt, bathrooms, trans people, pedophiles, her emails, his laptop, etc, etc. They are afraid of everything...

It all seems a distraction from other news.  I don't have Cable TV, but I get the gist of what they are about.  Subjects are a sort of smokescreen to keep people from thinking of the real issues of the day.  For example, I am sure little time would be spent on global warming.  Their advertisers may take offense to such stories.  Likewise, there is now a wide proliferation of pill commercials.  One will not see any sort of analysis of how Americans vastly overpay for their health care.  If these subjects are covered it would be to ridicule positions that attempt to deal with said current problems.

[BDWW]

The car-centric culture doesn't seem to me to break down in actuality on red/blue lines. I think the generational argument may bit a bit closer to the truth.  True, blue seems to give a bit more lip service to the issue, but as of yet doesn't really seem to putting all that much into action. Blue is pushing electric cars, and red ICE cars, but both are still pushing cars hard.

As an anecdote, my red state is actually on the verge of implementing what some may consider a progressive idea SB 323 based on the idea of not "ending up like California."  As I understand it, it would eliminate single family zoning in cities of a population > 5000.

As a hubristic pat on my own back, I've been attempting to make that argument for years. Everyone here claims they don't want this valley to end up like LA, but then keep following same blueprint for car-centric sprawl.

[AlanStache]

Local optimization vs global optimization.  A few single family homes near town might be nice and work well for the occupants and the stores they drive to but when everyone tries to do that the "good" result breaks down and we get traffic infested strods.

SB 323 - are parking requirements on the table too?

I expect boomeres will not be remembered fondly by the younger generations now coming up, or at least for the macro problems the created or kicked the can down the road on.   

[BDWW]

Just read the latest version of the bill, and it appears it's getting watered-down (of course).  It now only stipulates duplexes are allowed vs the original which required triplexes and four-plexes. Nothing on parking.

[LD_TAndK]

I had written the KIA Niro off as an SUV without much thought. I recently sat in a friend's though and it's really a small hatchback stylized as an SUV. It manages good rear seat legroom, trunk space, and roof rails, but in a compact package.

If only the full EV version didn't start at 40k!

[LennStar]

I had written the KIA Niro off as an SUV without much thought. I recently sat in a friend's though and it's really a small hatchback stylized as an SUV. It manages good rear seat legroom, trunk space, and roof rails, but in a compact package.

If only the full EV version didn't start at 40k!

It's what we here in Europe call a "crossover" or "compact SUV".
Still has one of the main problems: The way too small back window. And the front is still higher than needed and likely longer than needed too. Kill 6 children for the price of 3!
Also 30% mehr energy need than a small car. (only a  slightly bit more than what is probably the competitor, Hyundai Kona)

[nereo]

I had written the KIA Niro off as an SUV without much thought. I recently sat in a friend's though and it's really a small hatchback stylized as an SUV. It manages good rear seat legroom, trunk space, and roof rails, but in a compact package.

If only the full EV version didn't start at 40k!

It's what we here in Europe call a "crossover" or "compact SUV".
Still has one of the main problems: The way too small back window. And the front is still higher than needed and likely longer than needed too. Kill 6 children for the price of 3!
Also 30% mehr energy need than a small car. (only a  slightly bit more than what is probably the competitor, Hyundai Kona)

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

[Just Joe]

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

Maybe this is what they are talking about with the killing reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Bigger vehicle, worse spatial awareness for small things in front of the vehicle.

[LD_TAndK]

I looked up the dimensions of my current car (2015 civic), the Chevy Bolt (which I'd call a compact EV) vs the Niro. Niro is a bit wider, much longer than the bolt, and slightly less tall. Quite a bit taller than my old civic, but shorter length. Overall I think it's comparable to other small vehicles. "Crossover SUV" is just marketing BS

Model	Weight (lbs)	Height (in)	Length (in)	Width (in)
2015 Civic	2754	56.5	179.4	69
Chevy Bolt	3589	63.4	163.2	69.5
Niro EV	3721	61.8	174	71.8

[nereo]

I looked up the dimensions of my current car (2015 civic), the Chevy Bolt (which I'd call a compact EV) vs the Niro. Niro is a bit wider, much longer than the bolt, and slightly less tall. Quite a bit taller than my old civic, but shorter length. Overall I think it's comparable to other small vehicles. "Crossover SUV" is just marketing BS

There are a number of different ways vehicles get categorized in the US which are important for the standards they must meet and how they are taxed, licensed and sold, as well as how they are tested for safety. There are the IIHS, EPA and NHTSA classifications. For the IIHS, SUVs are classified by their curb weight.
There's another entire set of standards in the EU.

here's a brief intro: It gets confusing rather quickly.

[RWD]

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

Maybe this is what they are talking about with the killing reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Bigger vehicle, worse spatial awareness for small things in front of the vehicle.

Sure, but there's a huge difference between a compact crossover SUV and a full-size SUV (e.g. Suburban)...

[LennStar]

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

Maybe this is what they are talking about with the killing reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Bigger vehicle, worse spatial awareness for small things in front of the vehicle.

I meant something like this:

https://media.nbcwashington.com/2022/07/frontovers-6.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&resize=1200%2C675

Only the kid with the red shirt (Star Treck fans: ironically) is visible for the driver. And with those extra-hight wheels on a Ford 250 it's 12 kids standing you aren't seeing. Or smaller adults for that matter.

[farmecologist]

Late to the party here but the value proposition of EVs in our area doesn't really do it for me yet.

First of all, not enough range with lower priced EVs....and the "lower priced" ones are still too much, with the exception of the Bolt.

Secondly, our current vehicles are cheap to run/insure ( both low miles 2012s )...they both literally each only have about 50k miles.  I do my own maintenance on them and licence tabs are extremely cheap now that they are "old".  So not worth it to trade or sell them at this point...

Thirdly, Charging infrastructure in our area is lacking...which is somewhat of a moot point because of home charging.  However, a day trip from our small city to the big city would likely deplete the battery of a reasonably priced low range EV...especially during winter.  And I don't want to go out of my way to find chargers.

At this point, we won't get an EV until chargers start showing up at our local "Kwik Trip" gas station...lol.

If anything, a 2023+ Prius or Prius Prime will be our next vehicle...but even that is a long ways off.

[Tyson]

Late to the party here but the value proposition of EVs in our area doesn't really do it for me yet.

First of all, not enough range with lower priced EVs....and the "lower priced" ones are still too much, with the exception of the Bolt.

Secondly, our current vehicles are cheap to run/insure ( both low miles 2012s )...they both literally each only have about 50k miles.  I do my own maintenance on them and licence tabs are extremely cheap now that they are "old".  So not worth it to trade or sell them at this point...

Thirdly, Charging infrastructure in our area is lacking...which is somewhat of a moot point because of home charging.  However, a day trip from our small city to the big city would likely deplete the battery of a reasonably priced low range EV...especially during winter.  And I don't want to go out of my way to find chargers.

At this point, we won't get an EV until chargers start showing up at our local "Kwik Trip" gas station...lol.

If anything, a 2023+ Prius or Prius Prime will be our next vehicle...but even that is a long ways off.

It's similar for me.  I'm in the city and my next car will be an EV.  But in the meantime I have a 2007 Acura in good shape and I like having ZERO car payments better than I like the idea of an EV right now. 

[RWD]

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

Maybe this is what they are talking about with the killing reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Bigger vehicle, worse spatial awareness for small things in front of the vehicle.

I meant something like this:

https://media.nbcwashington.com/2022/07/frontovers-6.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&resize=1200%2C675

Only the kid with the red shirt (Star Treck fans: ironically) is visible for the driver. And with those extra-hight wheels on a Ford 250 it's 12 kids standing you aren't seeing. Or smaller adults for that matter.

Are you seriously saying a Kia Niro with it's sloped nose and more than a foot less total height is the same kid-killer as a Suburban/Yukon? Absurd.

[pecunia]

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

Maybe this is what they are talking about with the killing reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Bigger vehicle, worse spatial awareness for small things in front of the vehicle.

I meant something like this:

https://media.nbcwashington.com/2022/07/frontovers-6.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&resize=1200%2C675

Only the kid with the red shirt (Star Treck fans: ironically) is visible for the driver. And with those extra-hight wheels on a Ford 250 it's 12 kids standing you aren't seeing. Or smaller adults for that matter.

Are you seriously saying a Kia Niro with it's sloped nose and more than a foot less total height is the same kid-killer as a Suburban/Yukon? Absurd.

Well - Maybe you'd only kill half the kids.  It would be odd if safety forces some car companies to offer cars again.  Safer and better mileage.

[Just Joe]

It's classified the same here in the US (both the Kona and Niro are "crossover SUV).  I'm not sure I understand why you are talking about killing 6 children, can you explain?
The Hyundai Kona nad Kira Niro are built on the same platform, and the two companies are "sister companies", sharing parts, design and manufacturing.

Maybe this is what they are talking about with the killing reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo

Bigger vehicle, worse spatial awareness for small things in front of the vehicle.

I meant something like this:

https://media.nbcwashington.com/2022/07/frontovers-6.jpg?quality=85&strip=all&resize=1200%2C675

Only the kid with the red shirt (Star Treck fans: ironically) is visible for the driver. And with those extra-hight wheels on a Ford 250 it's 12 kids standing you aren't seeing. Or smaller adults for that matter.

Yeah, we're on the same page. The NJB fellow used the same picture here: https://youtu.be/jN7mSXMruEo?t=622