Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 537246 times)

neo von retorch

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #750 on: July 13, 2021, 08:30:58 AM »
In the expensive area I live, there are bike trails along the major road. I was able to ride a bike the 7 miles to work before my employer chose to support remote work. Now I only did it when the weather was favorable. I'm no saint. But almost every other place I lived, and almost every other job I had, biking was, at best, barely tenable. At worst, a dangerous proposition. That's the current state of the United States in many places for many people. Can we just casually subsidize moving all the houses and employers closer together? Make sure all roads have safe biking lanes or trails? Shouldn't take more than a year or two, right? Of course not. It would (will, if we're optimists) take generations to get there. Cars will be used by individuals in many cases, in the meantime.

Do I hate the environment? No, but I'm not selfless, and I am pragmatic. I also think lots of people could bike that still choose not to. It's hard to get people to change their ways. It takes a long time and lots of aligned incentives.

If twice as many people are buying electric bikes than electric cars, I'm not sure there's a good argument for reducing the incentive for people to switch away from ICE vehicles. That confuses me. Of course, with government, you'd think they'd look at their budget and carefully select where to allocate dollars. I don't think our government does a good job of that... lobbyist likely say "you should throw money in this direction" and budgets... be damned! That's a whole other thread :) (Your local thread police!)

This thread about the Mach-E helping to spark change was started November, 2019.

In 2020, Ford didn't really sell any Mach-E.
In 2021, they've sold about 13,000. Looks like production numbers are approaching 7,000 / month now. (Tesla produces about 10x as many EVs each month.)

Overall this is very disappointing (unless you wish Ford just built bikes).

Chaplin

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #751 on: July 13, 2021, 08:56:11 AM »
Good stuff @gaja!

The problem of "perfect is the enemy of the good" rears its ugly head often in environmental issues:

- does evangelizing about bikes being the only solution stop people from seeking improvements on their current modes of transport?

- does heavy promotion of veganism reduce the number of people who might reduce their meat consumption by say 10%?

- does a focus on how power is generated overshadow the conversation around reducing consumption regardless of source?

- does arguing that people need stop doing X,Y or Z stop people from considering ways to those things in less impactful ways?

I think a lot of the "extreme" positions are taken by people who realize that ultimately the solutions to climate change are going to have to be fairly extreme. I think that's the case myself. What this approach misses is that asking people to go from zero to extreme in one step is pretty much guaranteed to fail. Getting people to do a "meatless Monday" rather go full vegan isn't "enough" relative to the problem at hand, but it might be palatable enough for someone to try. The hope then is that they're open to further incremental changes. And then, perhaps the incremental changes lead to something closer the "extreme."

Of course, we work within systems and infrastructures that define where "extreme" is. 68% of trips to school and work in Amsterdam are by bike because the infrastructure supports it. Getting to 80% probably isn't supported by their infrastructure, yet. For many other cities around the world, but especially in North America getting to 5% would be extreme.

People will choose what to do in just about every area based on what's most convenient (fastest, lowest cost, etc.). Some of the decision-making around convenience is logical, but much of it also isn't - there's so much influence of habit, childhood, what everyone else is doing, and especially identity.

People in Amsterdam don't bike because they're altruistically doing something they don't want to do for the good of others. They're doing it because it's the best option based on factors like cost of private vehicles, bike paths, bike parking, work policies, bike design, helmet laws (lack thereof, which is possible because of the infrastructure, etc.), and because it's normal.

In a weak attempt to tie this back to the OP question... EVs are relatively easy to adopt because the infrastructure mostly already supports them (roads, parking, etc.). Some would say that the infrastructure doesn't support them because of a lack of sufficient public charging, and charging solutions for renters, apartment-dwellers, and street-parkers. There's some truth to that, but for a significant proportion of the population those infrastructure concerns aren't a big deal. Right now, the biggest factor that will drive or slow adoption is identity. If driving an EV conflicts with your identity you will hold out as long as possible. If it confirms or reinforces your identity, you'll pay a bit extra to be an early adopter. If it has no bearing on your identity, you'll drive one when the economics makes sense for you.

BuffaloStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #752 on: July 13, 2021, 09:23:27 AM »
...
This thread about the Mach-E helping to spark change was started November, 2019.

In 2020, Ford didn't really sell any Mach-E.
In 2021, they've sold about 13,000. Looks like production numbers are approaching 7,000 / month now. (Tesla produces about 10x as many EVs each month.)

Overall this is very disappointing (unless you wish Ford just built bikes).

Thanks for getting us back on track, Neo. I'll chime in to say:

In 2020, I know I didn't drive around much, but I didn't see even one Mach-E out on the road.
In 2021, I've seen 3. Granted it's a 300% increase, but it still isn't a lot.

Where I live, Tesla's are far and away the most seen BEV (mostly Model 3s), with Nissan Leaf coming in 2nd. Outside of those handful of models (Tesla S, 3, X, Y, and Nissan Leaf), all other BEVs are seen far and few between (Maybe slightly more Chevy Bolts than others, but still not a lot).

However, I do think that there are many more EVs on the road today than 3 years ago. I'm hoping that trend continues. I say this as a non-EV owning person, but both of my family's cars are 15+ years old (and we definitely plan on replacing at least one with an EV when they die).

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #753 on: July 13, 2021, 09:30:45 AM »
You can't blame the oil and gas lobby.  Car use seems to be ridiculously deeply ingrained in our culture.

At least in the US, the most potent political forces form when genuine grassroots movement finds institutional support and funding. The way humans are, we are much easier to get worked up in opposition to something than in support of something. Add to this the rural bias in American political institutions, and you get car-centric development being practically impossible to dislodge.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #754 on: July 13, 2021, 09:57:11 AM »
There has traditionally been a lot of resistance to making streets safer for pedestrians and cyclists . . . because most methods for doing this involve reducing space for and speed of automobiles.  In North America, the automobile is king - suggesting otherwise seems to either get you branded as a heretic or laughed out of the room.

Something makes me suspect that the pedestrian and cyclist lobbying organizations don't have the funding that the automotive and oil & gas lobbyists have, lol.

You can't blame the oil and gas lobby. Car use seems to be ridiculously deeply ingrained in our culture.  It's a little frustrating that the same chorus of excuses always comes up:
- NOBODY COULD DO THAT AND YOU DON'T COUNT
- MY SON RIDES A BIKE, THEREFORE THEY'RE ONLY FOR CHILDREN
- ALL THAT BIKES DO IS SLOW DOWN TRAFFIC FOR EVERYONE ELSE
- WHAT IF IT RAINS / IS SUNNY / SNOWS / IS WINDY / HUMITITY / POLLUTION / BUGS / DUST / ALLERGIES
- IT'S SO DANGEROUS.  DID YOU KNOW THAT 100% OF CYCLISTS WILL DIE?
- I'M AN OBESE SMOKER SO AM INCAPABLE OF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY
- YOU CAN'T CARRY ANYTHING WHILE CYCLING
- MY BODY IS UNIQUE AMONG HUMANS IN THAT I SWEAT
- I COMMUTE 300 MILES A DAY, YOU CAN'T BIKE THAT
- HOW WOULD I BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO ENJOY RUNNING CYCLISTS OFF THE ROAD WHILE ON A BIKE?

:P

Why do you think that is?

https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history

bacchi

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #755 on: July 13, 2021, 10:47:12 AM »
...
This thread about the Mach-E helping to spark change was started November, 2019.

In 2020, Ford didn't really sell any Mach-E.
In 2021, they've sold about 13,000. Looks like production numbers are approaching 7,000 / month now. (Tesla produces about 10x as many EVs each month.)

Overall this is very disappointing (unless you wish Ford just built bikes).

Thanks for getting us back on track, Neo. I'll chime in to say:

In 2020, I know I didn't drive around much, but I didn't see even one Mach-E out on the road.
In 2021, I've seen 3. Granted it's a 300% increase, but it still isn't a lot.

Where I live, Tesla's are far and away the most seen BEV (mostly Model 3s), with Nissan Leaf coming in 2nd. Outside of those handful of models (Tesla S, 3, X, Y, and Nissan Leaf), all other BEVs are seen far and few between (Maybe slightly more Chevy Bolts than others, but still not a lot).

However, I do think that there are many more EVs on the road today than 3 years ago. I'm hoping that trend continues. I say this as a non-EV owning person, but both of my family's cars are 15+ years old (and we definitely plan on replacing at least one with an EV when they die).

I've seen a lot more Tesla around lately. The booming economy has helped.

The best selling personal vehicle is the F150. Once Ford starts selling the F150 Lightning, the move to BEVs will quicken.

I plan to convert a classic car to electric and use it as our 2nd, around town, vehicle. My current daily driver is fun but it's now old enough to vote.

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #756 on: July 13, 2021, 11:05:07 AM »
...
This thread about the Mach-E helping to spark change was started November, 2019.

In 2020, Ford didn't really sell any Mach-E.
In 2021, they've sold about 13,000. Looks like production numbers are approaching 7,000 / month now. (Tesla produces about 10x as many EVs each month.)

Overall this is very disappointing (unless you wish Ford just built bikes).

Thanks for getting us back on track, Neo. I'll chime in to say:

In 2020, I know I didn't drive around much, but I didn't see even one Mach-E out on the road.
In 2021, I've seen 3. Granted it's a 300% increase, but it still isn't a lot.

Where I live, Tesla's are far and away the most seen BEV (mostly Model 3s), with Nissan Leaf coming in 2nd. Outside of those handful of models (Tesla S, 3, X, Y, and Nissan Leaf), all other BEVs are seen far and few between (Maybe slightly more Chevy Bolts than others, but still not a lot).

However, I do think that there are many more EVs on the road today than 3 years ago. I'm hoping that trend continues. I say this as a non-EV owning person, but both of my family's cars are 15+ years old (and we definitely plan on replacing at least one with an EV when they die).

I've seen a lot more Tesla around lately. The booming economy has helped.

The best selling personal vehicle is the F150. Once Ford starts selling the F150 Lightning, the move to BEVs will quicken.

I plan to convert a classic car to electric and use it as our 2nd, around town, vehicle. My current daily driver is fun but it's now old enough to vote.

Lots of friends are signing up for the f150 that I know trucks rule suburban Midwest roads. When the lightning outsells the ice we'll know it's now an EV world my guess 2-3 years max.

I also have an itch to convert a classic car. Can pickup some wrecked tesla cells on ebay really cheap. Any resources you recommend?

bacchi

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #757 on: July 13, 2021, 11:12:15 AM »
...
This thread about the Mach-E helping to spark change was started November, 2019.

In 2020, Ford didn't really sell any Mach-E.
In 2021, they've sold about 13,000. Looks like production numbers are approaching 7,000 / month now. (Tesla produces about 10x as many EVs each month.)

Overall this is very disappointing (unless you wish Ford just built bikes).

Thanks for getting us back on track, Neo. I'll chime in to say:

In 2020, I know I didn't drive around much, but I didn't see even one Mach-E out on the road.
In 2021, I've seen 3. Granted it's a 300% increase, but it still isn't a lot.

Where I live, Tesla's are far and away the most seen BEV (mostly Model 3s), with Nissan Leaf coming in 2nd. Outside of those handful of models (Tesla S, 3, X, Y, and Nissan Leaf), all other BEVs are seen far and few between (Maybe slightly more Chevy Bolts than others, but still not a lot).

However, I do think that there are many more EVs on the road today than 3 years ago. I'm hoping that trend continues. I say this as a non-EV owning person, but both of my family's cars are 15+ years old (and we definitely plan on replacing at least one with an EV when they die).

I've seen a lot more Tesla around lately. The booming economy has helped.

The best selling personal vehicle is the F150. Once Ford starts selling the F150 Lightning, the move to BEVs will quicken.

I plan to convert a classic car to electric and use it as our 2nd, around town, vehicle. My current daily driver is fun but it's now old enough to vote.

Lots of friends are signing up for the f150 that I know trucks rule suburban Midwest roads. When the lightning outsells the ice we'll know it's now an EV world my guess 2-3 years max.

I also have an itch to convert a classic car. Can pickup some wrecked tesla cells on ebay really cheap. Any resources you recommend?

I just started looking but there are some here. The LG Chem's are supposed to be good if you want to get new instead of used.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4


boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #758 on: July 13, 2021, 11:20:50 AM »
...
This thread about the Mach-E helping to spark change was started November, 2019.

In 2020, Ford didn't really sell any Mach-E.
In 2021, they've sold about 13,000. Looks like production numbers are approaching 7,000 / month now. (Tesla produces about 10x as many EVs each month.)

Overall this is very disappointing (unless you wish Ford just built bikes).

Thanks for getting us back on track, Neo. I'll chime in to say:

In 2020, I know I didn't drive around much, but I didn't see even one Mach-E out on the road.
In 2021, I've seen 3. Granted it's a 300% increase, but it still isn't a lot.

Where I live, Tesla's are far and away the most seen BEV (mostly Model 3s), with Nissan Leaf coming in 2nd. Outside of those handful of models (Tesla S, 3, X, Y, and Nissan Leaf), all other BEVs are seen far and few between (Maybe slightly more Chevy Bolts than others, but still not a lot).

However, I do think that there are many more EVs on the road today than 3 years ago. I'm hoping that trend continues. I say this as a non-EV owning person, but both of my family's cars are 15+ years old (and we definitely plan on replacing at least one with an EV when they die).

I've seen a lot more Tesla around lately. The booming economy has helped.

The best selling personal vehicle is the F150. Once Ford starts selling the F150 Lightning, the move to BEVs will quicken.

I plan to convert a classic car to electric and use it as our 2nd, around town, vehicle. My current daily driver is fun but it's now old enough to vote.

Lots of friends are signing up for the f150 that I know trucks rule suburban Midwest roads. When the lightning outsells the ice we'll know it's now an EV world my guess 2-3 years max.

I also have an itch to convert a classic car. Can pickup some wrecked tesla cells on ebay really cheap. Any resources you recommend?

I just started looking but there are some here. The LG Chem's are supposed to be good if you want to get new instead of used.

https://www.evwest.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=4

I was thinking more just the conversion steps. Been thinking of buying a Shelby Cobra kit car, the mechanical aspects of the conversion are what I need to research. I can handle the electric system pretty well

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #759 on: July 13, 2021, 11:22:02 AM »
https://electrek.co/2021/07/13/electrify-america-announces-doubling-charging-network/

VW isn't doubling their charging network out of kindness. Though this was a forced company that will probably make them money now.

dandarc

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #760 on: July 13, 2021, 11:28:49 AM »
more emmisions-gate fallout for them?

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #761 on: July 13, 2021, 11:48:54 AM »
more emmisions-gate fallout for them?

No I was saying their doubling it bc EVs are here to stay and growing.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #762 on: July 13, 2021, 12:21:46 PM »
There has traditionally been a lot of resistance to making streets safer for pedestrians and cyclists . . . because most methods for doing this involve reducing space for and speed of automobiles.  In North America, the automobile is king - suggesting otherwise seems to either get you branded as a heretic or laughed out of the room.

Something makes me suspect that the pedestrian and cyclist lobbying organizations don't have the funding that the automotive and oil & gas lobbyists have, lol.

You can't blame the oil and gas lobby. Car use seems to be ridiculously deeply ingrained in our culture.  It's a little frustrating that the same chorus of excuses always comes up:
- NOBODY COULD DO THAT AND YOU DON'T COUNT
- MY SON RIDES A BIKE, THEREFORE THEY'RE ONLY FOR CHILDREN
- ALL THAT BIKES DO IS SLOW DOWN TRAFFIC FOR EVERYONE ELSE
- WHAT IF IT RAINS / IS SUNNY / SNOWS / IS WINDY / HUMITITY / POLLUTION / BUGS / DUST / ALLERGIES
- IT'S SO DANGEROUS.  DID YOU KNOW THAT 100% OF CYCLISTS WILL DIE?
- I'M AN OBESE SMOKER SO AM INCAPABLE OF PHYSICAL ACTIVITY
- YOU CAN'T CARRY ANYTHING WHILE CYCLING
- MY BODY IS UNIQUE AMONG HUMANS IN THAT I SWEAT
- I COMMUTE 300 MILES A DAY, YOU CAN'T BIKE THAT
- HOW WOULD I BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO ENJOY RUNNING CYCLISTS OFF THE ROAD WHILE ON A BIKE?

:P

Why do you think that is?

https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/7551873/jaywalking-history

Holy fuck!

windytrail

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #763 on: July 14, 2021, 12:29:28 PM »


Of course, we work within systems and infrastructures that define where "extreme" is. 68% of trips to school and work in Amsterdam are by bike because the infrastructure supports it. Getting to 80% probably isn't supported by their infrastructure, yet. For many other cities around the world, but especially in North America getting to 5% would be extreme.

People will choose what to do in just about every area based on what's most convenient (fastest, lowest cost, etc.). Some of the decision-making around convenience is logical, but much of it also isn't - there's so much influence of habit, childhood, what everyone else is doing, and especially identity.

People in Amsterdam don't bike because they're altruistically doing something they don't want to do for the good of others. They're doing it because it's the best option based on factors like cost of private vehicles, bike paths, bike parking, work policies, bike design, helmet laws (lack thereof, which is possible because of the infrastructure, etc.), and because it's normal.

In a weak attempt to tie this back to the OP question... EVs are relatively easy to adopt because the infrastructure mostly already supports them (roads, parking, etc.). Some would say that the infrastructure doesn't support them because of a lack of sufficient public charging, and charging solutions for renters, apartment-dwellers, and street-parkers. There's some truth to that, but for a significant proportion of the population those infrastructure concerns aren't a big deal. Right now, the biggest factor that will drive or slow adoption is identity. If driving an EV conflicts with your identity you will hold out as long as possible. If it confirms or reinforces your identity, you'll pay a bit extra to be an early adopter. If it has no bearing on your identity, you'll drive one when the economics makes sense for you.
This argument is similar to the "but America was designed for the car, so we can't have it any other way!! Not like those people in Amsterdam who have always had bike infrastructure!"

Here is the Brooklyn Bridge, circa 1883:


Here is Dallas, TX from the 1950s:


Here is Haarlemmerdijk (Amsterdam) in 1971
 .

You speak of "infrastructure supporting" a certain mode as if it's independent of the conscious decision of governments. The car-centric state of our US cities today was a result of hundreds of billions of dollars spent by the federal government to tear down buildings, widen streets, and build highways to accommodate cars. This is definitely not the way it has always been, and it did not exist at all before WWII. Similarly, Amsterdam has not always been bike-friendly. The people had to rise up and demand that their government prioritize street safety.

We are at an inflection point: should the federal government spend hundreds of billions more dollars to continue subsidizing automobiles, as Biden is proposing with his EV plan? Or should it spend more on accommodating other safer, more sustainable modes of transportation? No, you can't just fund "all of the above" -- that's not how these political negotiations work; there's not infinite money to spend on infrastructure.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 12:49:56 PM by windytrail »

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #764 on: July 14, 2021, 12:42:39 PM »
I think that Biden is balancing what is best with what is realistically possible in the current environment.  The car reliance is very deeply ingrained, and there doesn't seem to be any significant grass roots support for a no car lifestyle.  In Amsterdam the bike friendliness was largely a result of a sudden quadrupling increase in the price of oil.

If Biden started telling people to ride a bike to work and building bike infrastructure in the current US political climate, I suspect he would get a similar reception to the one that got Carter kicked out of the White House after he told people they should wear sweaters in the winter.

windytrail

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #765 on: July 14, 2021, 01:10:09 PM »
I think that Biden is balancing what is best with what is realistically possible in the current environment.  The car reliance is very deeply ingrained, and there doesn't seem to be any significant grass roots support for a no car lifestyle.  In Amsterdam the bike friendliness was largely a result of a sudden quadrupling increase in the price of oil.

If Biden started telling people to ride a bike to work and building bike infrastructure in the current US political climate, I suspect he would get a similar reception to the one that got Carter kicked out of the White House after he told people they should wear sweaters in the winter.
I see this as more an issue of communication. Let's look at what Americans' preferences are in regards to lifestyle:
- 53% of Americans would prefer to live in a walkable neighborhood (https://www.wpr.org/more-americans-want-walkable-cities-how-does-happen)
- Americans support expanding public transit, including passenger rail, by a 77-15 margin (https://t4america.org/2020/03/17/voters-want-and-need-more-transportation-options/; https://www.onerail.org/resources/americans-strongly-support-rail/)

Thus, Biden is missing out on a huge opportunity to improve our transportation system by focusing primarily on EVs. Instead of framing it negatively ("You need to bike to work"), he could use positive messaging, such as, "Wouldn't you like to live in a walkable neighborhood?" and "What if our country had world-class passenger rail, thus allowing you to avoid those annoying security lines at the airport?"

Chaplin

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #766 on: July 14, 2021, 01:17:18 PM »
We are at an inflection point: should the federal government spend hundreds of billions more dollars to continue subsidizing automobiles, as Biden is proposing with his EV plan? Or should it spend more on accommodating other safer, more sustainable modes of transportation? No, you can't just fund "all of the above" -- that's not how these political negotiations work; there's not infinite money to spend on infrastructure.

I think you're inferring that I'm saying is we can't shift to more walking, biking and transit because the infrastructure is what it is. That's not the case at all - what I'm saying is that with the infrastructure we have people will make decisions based on it. I fully support shifting the infrastructure radically and quickly because then people will be able to make different decisions.

Yes, Amsterdam also went very car-centric after WWII, but came to their senses and started to shift back. They wait for a road or bridge to need major repairs and use that as an opportunity to decrease and slow car traffic, make more room for bikes and pedestrians, and make a host of other more subtle changes. They are playing the long game and have managed to keep chipping away at it for over thirty years without a politics-driven reversal. I would love to see that happen here. It's going to be some serious uphill slogging as GuitarStv points out.

Here in Victoria, with some of the best bike infrastructure in North America, every bike-lane, every traffic calming measure, bring out a chorus of "what about deliveries," "what about the handicapped," "what about customers not being able to park." But once it's done and in-place most people love it, stores get more not less business thanks to foot traffic, and a pedestrian-friendly city is generally also more handicapped-friendly.

So no, I don't support subsidizing more car infrastructure. I also believe that no new fossil fuel infrastructure should be build anywhere, ever, period. Let what we have run its course but don't add any.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #767 on: July 14, 2021, 01:31:14 PM »
I see this as more an issue of communication. Let's look at what Americans' preferences are in regards to lifestyle:
- 53% of Americans would prefer to live in a walkable neighborhood (https://www.wpr.org/more-americans-want-walkable-cities-how-does-happen)
- Americans support expanding public transit, including passenger rail, by a 77-15 margin (https://t4america.org/2020/03/17/voters-want-and-need-more-transportation-options/; https://www.onerail.org/resources/americans-strongly-support-rail/)

Thus, Biden is missing out on a huge opportunity to improve our transportation system by focusing primarily on EVs. Instead of framing it negatively ("You need to bike to work"), he could use positive messaging, such as, "Wouldn't you like to live in a walkable neighborhood?" and "What if our country had world-class passenger rail, thus allowing you to avoid those annoying security lines at the airport?"

In the US, support for ideas doesn't translate to support for political parties pushing these ideas. Don't go any further, let it digest a bit.

Best example is universal background checks, which are nearly universally supported, with nearly absent effect on electoral politics. Higher minimum wage, voting rights for people who completed their time behind bars, you name it - all of it is popular, and does not translate into electoral success.

US political system is heavily biased towards rural areas. What people living in cities want, essentially, doesn't matter. Suburbs and rural areas call all the shots. 53% is a laughably weak hand for a coalition that includes city dwellers. It will translate to less than half of House seats, and WAY less than half of Senate seats. Results on the state level will be equally dismal, except is states that are already doing a lot. Also, young people vote at a much lower rate, so their preferences are further discounted, and any coalition that includes them is further weakened.

Yes, people want walkable neighborhoods. They also want to be able to jump into a car, drive anywhere, and park near destination. If you ask people who call the shots (those in suburbs and less dense areas) the real question: would you support less car infrastructure to get a more walkable neighborhood, you'll be laughed out of the office.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 01:43:26 PM by GodlessCommie »

Chaplin

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #768 on: July 14, 2021, 02:41:10 PM »
I realize I left out a final part to my previous thoughts. Despite significant advantages in the Netherlands such as better social cohesion, fewer baked-in problems of post-WWII development, a healthier population, a smaller country, better health care, fewer weather extremes (not to say that their weather is ideal), etc. it has still taken them 40ish years of sustained effort to transition their infrastructure (and they're not done).

Even with all the support and political will in the world, it would take North America as long or longer. In the mean time personal cars will remain significant. I believe it would be better that they be EVs rather than gas or diesel. Yes, a focus on EVs risks delaying other necessary changes. The alternative though seems to be the same slow pace of infrastructure change, but gas and diesel vehicles rather than EVs.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #769 on: July 14, 2021, 03:15:54 PM »
One more reason for the EV push: making cars = jobs and no significant opposition. Like, what are you against? More blue collar jobs in the American heartland? Please sign here: "I commit my political suicide freely and willingly". Not only that EVs = jobs, they are jobs for people who (in the US political context) matter - gettable voters who are not already in the pocket, and who are geographically concentrated in important areas.

Rebuilding infrastructure for better walking and biking at the expense of cars = making people change habits = huge opposition. You cannot come up with a better fuel for a culture war. THEY ARE COMING FOR OUR AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE! It also means jobs, of course - but these are mostly city jobs, and thus they don't matter.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 03:18:04 PM by GodlessCommie »

windytrail

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #770 on: July 14, 2021, 03:43:42 PM »
One more reason for the EV push: making cars = jobs and no significant opposition. Like, what are you against? More blue collar jobs in the American heartland? Please sign here: "I commit my political suicide freely and willingly". Not only that EVs = jobs, they are jobs for people who (in the US political context) matter - gettable voters who are not already in the pocket, and who are geographically concentrated in important areas.

Not sure I follow your point about jobs. Does building buses not produce jobs? Does building train cars or laying railroad lines not create jobs? And does building bike and pedestrian infrastructure not produce jobs? On the contrary, bicycle and pedestrian projects create more jobs than building roads and highways, due to a heavier reliance on humans vs. machines. (https://smartgrowthamerica.org/new-report-reveals-bike-and-pedestrian-projects-create-more-jobs-than-those-for-cars-only/; https://idahowalkbike.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Bicycling-and-Walking-Projects-Create-More-Jobs.pdf)

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #771 on: July 14, 2021, 04:05:06 PM »
One more reason for the EV push: making cars = jobs and no significant opposition. Like, what are you against? More blue collar jobs in the American heartland? Please sign here: "I commit my political suicide freely and willingly". Not only that EVs = jobs, they are jobs for people who (in the US political context) matter - gettable voters who are not already in the pocket, and who are geographically concentrated in important areas.

Rebuilding infrastructure for better walking and biking at the expense of cars = making people change habits = huge opposition. You cannot come up with a better fuel for a culture war. THEY ARE COMING FOR OUR AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE! It also means jobs, of course - but these are mostly city jobs, and thus they don't matter.

Seems like a little public relations is needed if going against walking is against the American Way of Life.

I can see some of it.  What really made America Great?

Folks!  It's walking.

Then you follow it with, "One small step for man,......."  of course there will be the shot of Neil Armstrong stepping on the moon.  Appropriate patriotic music must be lightly playing in the background.

How was the nation settled?  You show pioneers walking the Oregon trail.  The announcer says there was no interstate.  He follows with language that people walked.  It's natural.  You could event throw the word "organic" in there somehow.  The announcer shows native Americans walking the plains with a herd of Buffalo.  The announcer goes on to state that walking is both healthy for you and our planet.

World War 2 soldiers are shown on the march.

Then a bunch of smiling people each call out.  They state, "I feel good when I walk."  A doctor is shown smiling and says, "It's good to see these folks use their natural endorphins.  It makes me feel good too."

Maybe you finish it off with, "A man walks into a bar" and a wink.

Then you have the text to support walking projects in your neighborhoods.

I really don't think it would take that long to change attitudes.  You won't get everyone, but the culture around smoking has certainly changed.  It may be easier with something so basic as walking.

I saw a lot done with the rails to trails thing a few years back.

I'll bet it would have a huge impact on emissions.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #772 on: July 14, 2021, 04:35:51 PM »
Not sure I follow your point about jobs. Does building buses not produce jobs? Does building train cars or laying railroad lines not create jobs? And does building bike and pedestrian infrastructure not produce jobs? On the contrary, bicycle and pedestrian projects create more jobs than building roads and highways, due to a heavier reliance on humans vs. machines. (https://smartgrowthamerica.org/new-report-reveals-bike-and-pedestrian-projects-create-more-jobs-than-those-for-cars-only/; https://idahowalkbike.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Bicycling-and-Walking-Projects-Create-More-Jobs.pdf)

Once again, US political system is heavily biased towards rural areas. Building bike and pedestrian infrastructure produces jobs in cities. These are irrelevant in the current political climate.

Only swing states matter. In them, only people not firmly in one or the other camp matter. Building EVs are jobs for them. Building bike lanes are not.

I went into a bit more detail in the post before the one you quoted.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 04:38:33 PM by GodlessCommie »

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #773 on: July 14, 2021, 05:17:20 PM »
I'm sure the MAGA crowd will be outraged by pecunia's commercial. "Antifa is EXPLOITING our most cherished history to promote SOCIALIST SIDEWALKS!"

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #774 on: July 15, 2021, 03:12:55 AM »
So about jobs, for better or worse. The auto industry currently employs about 1.7 million Americans directly (OEMs and Tier 1 suppliers). And as many as 7.5 million total jobs are indirectly supported by the automotive industry. Directly, these are of course assembly workers, but also designers, engineers, accountants, sales people, mechanics, HR workers, IT people, etc. Indirectly, you've got a ton of energy jobs, shipping jobs, building support/trades jobs, even local restaurant jobs tied to this industry. Many of these direct jobs pay pretty well for the given area, or in the case of indirect jobs rely heavily on the income they get from having these businesses/employees as customers. The sector is responsible for 3-3.5% of total US GDP each year. They sell something like 16 million+ new vehicles per year domestically (In normal times). In a nutshell, that's why the automotive industry as a whole gets lots of support, up to and including bailouts with our tax dollars. "Too big to fail" and all.

EVs, are already threatening to cull the number of jobs for these people. EVs require fewer parts, which means fewer people are needed to design and engineer the parts, test and validate the parts, manufacture the parts at suppliers, ship the parts, assemble the parts, and support the workers doing all of the above. EVs are also likely to require less maintenance and service, which means you need fewer dealers, mechanics, quality engineers, etc. This reduction is very likely to occur no matter what as EVs increase market share.

Choosing to emphasize non-automotive transport over the current system isn't going to keep all of these people employed. The bus and train manufacturers might take on some of the employees, but there's just not enough new demand to take on all of the people currently employed by the industry. The whole point behind emphasizing mass transit is that there would be less usage of resources to manufacture and support transportation in the US. That includes human capital. There are like half a dozen bus manufacturers in the US and they're mostly staffed up at this point. They might respond to increased demand with an uptick in hiring certain roles, but keep in mind that (at least to some degree) they're undergoing similar ICE>EV transitions as the automotive industry, so the number of workers needed per bus/train that leaves the line is likely to drop.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #775 on: July 15, 2021, 04:36:23 AM »

Thus, Biden is missing out on a huge opportunity to improve our transportation system by focusing primarily on EVs. Instead of framing it negatively ("You need to bike to work"), he could use positive messaging, such as, "Wouldn't you like to live in a walkable neighborhood?" and "What if our country had world-class passenger rail, thus allowing you to avoid those annoying security lines at the airport?"

Perhaps the narrative you are hearing differs from what I am getting, but it seems there is a great deal of talk about the very things you want him to discuss. Every morning there’s discussion about Biden’s plan to expand high-speed rail (almost always with the mention of how he was “Mr Amtrak” during his three decades in the Senate). Better broadband and improving access to allow more people to WFH or go to school is another key focus. So is improving cycling and walking infrastructure in metro areas.

It’s even front and center on Biden’s own page about his infrastructure package :( https://joebiden.com/clean-energy/

Quote
Transit: Provide every American city with 100,000 or more residents with high-quality, zero-emissions public transportation options through flexible federal investments with strong labor protections that create good, union jobs and meet the needs of these cities – ranging from light rail networks to improving existing transit and bus lines to installing infrastructure for pedestrians and bicyclists.

And…
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Sparking the second great railroad revolution. Biden will make sure that America has the cleanest, safest, and fastest rail system in the world — for both passengers and freight.

And getting directly to your issue of pedestrians and cyclists:
Quote
Revolutionizing municipal transit networks. Most Americans do not have access to high-quality and zero-emissions options for affordable, reliable public transportation; and where transit exists, it’s often in need of repair. As a result, workers and families rely on cars and trucks, which can be a big financial burden and clog roadways. Biden will aim to provide all Americans in municipalities of more than 100,000 people with quality public transportation by 2030. He will allocate flexible federal investments with strong labor protections to help cities and towns install light rail networks and improve existing transit and bus lines. He’ll also help them invest in infrastructure for pedestrians, cyclists, and riders of e-scooters and other micro-mobility vehicles and integrate technologies like machine-learning optimized traffic lights.

All of these things Biden is already and very publicly advocating for. If there is more of a focus on BEV and charging stations, perhaps that’s less about the plan itself and more about the consumers’ focus.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 04:39:00 AM by nereo »

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #776 on: July 15, 2021, 06:16:18 AM »
Who else could be unemployed in a future "transportation revolution?" Well - We wouldn't need as much oil.  Texas might not like that.  Maybe OPEC wouldn't like that.  I'm thinking we wouldn't need all this military presence in the Middle East as most of that has been about protecting oil shipments.  Would you need as many of these huge tankers?

What would we need?  Well - Solar and wind electricity would be needed, but I like a reliable source of electricity.  I'm thinking we would need some of those generation IV nuclear reactors that can burn nuclear waste and turn it into electricity.  It might be a good idea to build some of those molten salt reactors that use Thorium as it's hard to get bomb material from them.  That could be a lot of clean energy jobs.  With a higher electricity use, the transmission lines would probably need upgrading and the substations on each end.

Those high speed railroads aren't going to build themselves.

A lot of what is needed is becoming apparent with this climate change thing.  Maybe, houses should be retrofitted for geothermal heating.  Lots of work there.  Lots more electricity used too.  The news tells me everyday about the West drying up.  Lots of farmers need water.  New technologies are out there for desalination with stuff like graphene that could get those farmers some of that water.  It would need to be pumped vast distances.  All those pipes would need to be manufactured.  All those pipelines would need to be laid.  All those pumping stations would need to be assembled.  Tunnels through mountains would be needed.  A lot more clean electricity would be needed for this pumping.  Lots of jobs depending on the decisions of the politicians and those that run the big business. 

And,.......we should go back to space too.

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #777 on: July 15, 2021, 08:20:38 AM »
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-v3-300kw-upgrade-confirmed-elon-musk/amp/

Tesla supercharger upgrades have recharge times likely sub 15 mins.

Abe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #778 on: July 15, 2021, 04:52:52 PM »
Are the fast charges damaging over the long term to the battery? I’ve heard conflicting reports and wondered if anyone knew any hard data on this. It’d be important thing to know for planning charging infrastructure.

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #779 on: July 15, 2021, 05:44:12 PM »
No.

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #780 on: July 15, 2021, 06:09:21 PM »
No.
No?  Then why do I keep reading that it does? Like here and here and here and here?

Of course I also see reports that it has a negligible impact.  Problem is, I don’t know which to believe…

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #781 on: July 15, 2021, 07:41:27 PM »
They're not damaging. From one of your articles.

Quote
However, a study conducted by the Idaho National Laboratory (INL) concluded that while an electric car’s battery will deteriorate faster if it’s only power source is Level 3 charging (which is almost never the case) the difference isn’t particularly pronounced.

Does continual DC fast charging reduce the capacity Faster that level 2 charging? It depends. For many well designed EVs it has no negative effect.  For other EVs it can have a minor effect on capacity.

Is reduced capacity damage? No.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #782 on: July 16, 2021, 07:59:44 AM »
Is reduced capacity damage? No.

While it may be technically true, this is not how a regular owner would see it. And it may not be even technically true.

It mostly comes down to heat, and heat does damage a battery. There may be other effects, of which I'm not qualified to speak.

Frequent fast charging on batteries without thermal management (**cough*** Leaf ***cough***) leads to pretty severe degradation. Vicious cycle: most often, people use DCFC on long trips. By the time you need FC, battery is hot. DCFC heats it further. A hot battery doesn't carry you as far - you need another session of DCFC. More heat, more damage.

Things are much improved with batteries that are actively cooled - but still, the heat is not removed instantly, and cooling doesn't reach where heating occurs, inside a cell. Cells still degrade faster than under gentle current, but the delta is not as big as with older batteries or **cough*** Leaf ***cough***.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 08:02:35 AM by GodlessCommie »

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #783 on: July 16, 2021, 08:29:47 AM »
https://insideevs.com/news/520495/ford-f150-lightning-pricing-interview/
Quote
Factor in the $7,500 US federal tax credit, and you should be able to get into an F-150 Lightning for less money than a comparably capable and similarly equipped gas-powered model.

Electric F-150 for the same price or less as the gas F-150 is probably going to be huge step for EV adoption in the United States.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #784 on: July 17, 2021, 10:32:41 PM »
Our experience with hailing ride-shares has been to hurry up and wait a long, long time. If that's going to be fixed by EV + autonomy + not owning cars, there's going to have to be cars just sitting around idle doing nothing for big stretches of time near anyone who might need it. Seems inefficient to me...

We live ten minutes from work in a rural area. If we relied on ride-share a car has to drive out from town, take us to work and then go on to other customers. Then for the trip home, a car has to repeat the same trip. That is twice as much driving as we do now.

Who cares if our car sits in the parking lot unused all day? B/c it rests most of the time, it lasts decades. If it went on to carry other people around town all day, it might not last a couple of years. Want to change things? Make affordable repair parts available for 50 years. Sort of like favorite collector cars. A person could daily drive a vintage Beetle thanks to an endless supply of repair parts.

Positive change would be bike paths with gentle grades so we can bicycle back and forth despite the distance. I ebike the route sometimes now but without battery assist, the trip is impossible for me - and still be ready for work when I arrive. Without assist when I return home, I'm utterly exhausted.

I recognize moving into an urban environment is the best option but until American cities start to mimic European cities - we're not moving anywhere.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #785 on: July 18, 2021, 06:08:35 AM »
Who cares if our car sits in the parking lot unused all day? B/c it rests most of the time, it lasts decades.

For population dense areas, not having to waste precious space by parking cars walking distance from work/shopping is a big deal. I would also say from an MMM-philosophy standpoint, even where space is less at a premium, it significantly eats into our ability to be pedestrian friendly. Parking lots in front of every store stretches out our cities and towns, and we need all the help we can get to pull it back.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #786 on: July 18, 2021, 06:48:51 AM »
Who cares if our car sits in the parking lot unused all day? B/c it rests most of the time, it lasts decades.

For population dense areas, not having to waste precious space by parking cars walking distance from work/shopping is a big deal. I would also say from an MMM-philosophy standpoint, even where space is less at a premium, it significantly eats into our ability to be pedestrian friendly. Parking lots in front of every store stretches out our cities and towns, and we need all the help we can get to pull it back.
^THis.

Here’s an example of how differently the issues are between rural/urban. In rural areas (like where I live now) there’s no shortage of space for cars.  In urban areas both parking and congestion is an enormous deal.  Not coincidentally this is where most people live. In these areas something like 40% of the area is devoted to parked cars, and these are parked >95% of the time.  Even at ‘peak’ transit times some 80% of cars are just sitting in lots or by the side of the street. On-street parking conflicts with both car traffic and bike lanes. Every proposal to expand cycling lanes runs into opposition because it involves taking out a few dozen parking spots and parking is already at a premium. There’s a reason why taxis service became enormously popular in most every city in the 20th century despite its high per-mile cost.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #787 on: July 18, 2021, 07:11:25 AM »
Who cares if our car sits in the parking lot unused all day? B/c it rests most of the time, it lasts decades.

For population dense areas, not having to waste precious space by parking cars walking distance from work/shopping is a big deal. I would also say from an MMM-philosophy standpoint, even where space is less at a premium, it significantly eats into our ability to be pedestrian friendly. Parking lots in front of every store stretches out our cities and towns, and we need all the help we can get to pull it back.
^THis.

Here’s an example of how differently the issues are between rural/urban. In rural areas (like where I live now) there’s no shortage of space for cars.  In urban areas both parking and congestion is an enormous deal.  Not coincidentally this is where most people live. In these areas something like 40% of the area is devoted to parked cars, and these are parked >95% of the time.  Even at ‘peak’ transit times some 80% of cars are just sitting in lots or by the side of the street. On-street parking conflicts with both car traffic and bike lanes. Every proposal to expand cycling lanes runs into opposition because it involves taking out a few dozen parking spots and parking is already at a premium. There’s a reason why taxis service became enormously popular in most every city in the 20th century despite its high per-mile cost.

I look at things just a little differently.  I used to work in an office in the middle of a large Midwestern city.  The thought occurred to me way back then that there was no real reason for the office to be located in the downtown.  Cities like the businesses because of the tax base.  Landlords like to rent space in the big buildings.  Would the customers care if the offices were located in one of the largely empty malls?  I doubt it. 

The big cities were a hassle for the workers to get to work, a hassle for the clients to visit the office, a hassle to get anything delivered. and higher cost of office space rent.  There were places to eat at lunch but I either skipped or took a sandwich.  I always thought it was an ego thing for the fat cats to have offices in a downtown location.

No, I never got with the program.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #788 on: July 18, 2021, 07:28:43 AM »
There’s been this push and pull between putting offices in downtown locations or in more rural/suburban locales. Despite the added cost for, well, almost everything cities routinely win. Despite the enormous cost, there are huge advantages and inertia in being in a dense urban setting with lots of other businesses.

Of course dense urban settings done always win out. Every year some huge company relocates a major office in a less dense area (or overseas), always mentioning how the cost of doing business would be so much lower. Sometimes it works great. Sometimes it fails miserable. Ebb and flow.

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #789 on: July 19, 2021, 01:29:35 AM »
Quote
I look at things just a little differently.  I used to work in an office in the middle of a large Midwestern city.  The thought occurred to me way back then that there was no real reason for the office to be located in the downtown.  Cities like the businesses because of the tax base.  Landlords like to rent space in the big buildings.  Would the customers care if the offices were located in one of the largely empty malls?  I doubt it.

That's the current best practice in city planning. Multiple business hubs surrounded by living spaces instead of one big centralized business district.

But it's nearly impossible to undo what exist today.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #790 on: July 19, 2021, 11:59:52 AM »
There’s been this push and pull between putting offices in downtown locations or in more rural/suburban locales. Despite the added cost for, well, almost everything cities routinely win. Despite the enormous cost, there are huge advantages and inertia in being in a dense urban setting with lots of other businesses.

Of course dense urban settings done always win out. Every year some huge company relocates a major office in a less dense area (or overseas), always mentioning how the cost of doing business would be so much lower. Sometimes it works great. Sometimes it fails miserable. Ebb and flow.

Which leads to less transit, more commuter vehicles and shifts some of the cost of doing business onto the employee.

neo von retorch

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #791 on: July 21, 2021, 07:31:41 AM »
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/07/41-percent-of-consumers-say-their-next-car-will-be-electric/

Quote
EY surveyed 9,000 consumers across 13 countries (Australia, Canada, China, Germany, India, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea, Sweden, the UK, and the US) in June

Quote
In each country, the environment was the primary reason for wanting to electrify, and the major concern was the cost of ownership, not charging infrastructure. The good news is that time and again, research shows that EVs are cheaper to maintain and have a lower total cost of ownership than gasoline or diesel-powered vehicles.

And another important headline...

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-plans-open-up-its-charging-network-other-evs-later-this-year-2021-07-20/

Quote
The electric-car maker's fast charging network, with over 25,000 superchargers globally, has given it a competitive edge.

Quote
"We're making our Supercharger network open to other EVs later this year," Musk said on Tuesday, adding that over time Tesla's charging network will be opened to other electric vehicles in all countries.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 07:38:01 AM by neo von retorch »

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #792 on: July 21, 2021, 07:53:21 AM »
One of my relatives designs a lot of electrical stuff.  This is like sizing a businesses incoming services, sizing wiring , etc.  He told me that recently a business had asked him to install one of these Superchargers at a restaurant.  Their existing wiring couldn't handle it.  So, I found this snippet:

Taking the Model 3's battery pack voltage into consideration with its known max charging amperage of 525 amps, it's possible that the Model 3 could benefit from charging up to about 180 kW, an increase of around 50 percent.

So, I guess that's 525 amps at 220 volts.  That's 115 kVA.

Multiply that by a million or two and there's a lot of energy needed.  There's a lot of copper needed.  All that energy must be at the ready for these people's cars.  There's a lot of capacity needed.

It looks like there will be a major investment in electrical retrofits when this electric car revolution really takes off.  Will this translate into an investment opportunity? 

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #793 on: July 21, 2021, 11:00:47 AM »
And another important headline...

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-plans-open-up-its-charging-network-other-evs-later-this-year-2021-07-20/

Quote
The electric-car maker's fast charging network, with over 25,000 superchargers globally, has given it a competitive edge.

Quote
"We're making our Supercharger network open to other EVs later this year," Musk said on Tuesday, adding that over time Tesla's charging network will be opened to other electric vehicles in all countries.

This will be interesting. First off, it's just a tweet from Elon, so massive grain of salt... Second, when/if it happens it will be really interesting to see how they implement it. Will non Tesla's have to pay more? Will they just add more superchargers so that current Tesla owners won't be inconvenienced by other EVs taking up Supercharger space for long periods of time?

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #794 on: July 21, 2021, 11:02:39 AM »
And another important headline...

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-plans-open-up-its-charging-network-other-evs-later-this-year-2021-07-20/

Quote
The electric-car maker's fast charging network, with over 25,000 superchargers globally, has given it a competitive edge.

Quote
"We're making our Supercharger network open to other EVs later this year," Musk said on Tuesday, adding that over time Tesla's charging network will be opened to other electric vehicles in all countries.

This will be interesting. First off, it's just a tweet from Elon, so massive grain of salt... Second, when/if it happens it will be really interesting to see how they implement it. Will non Tesla's have to pay more? Will they just add more superchargers so that current Tesla owners won't be inconvenienced by other EVs taking up Supercharger space for long periods of time?

I had a similar thought too - it would frustrate a lot of Tesla owners if slow charging cars were using up all the supercharger spots. 

AlanStache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #795 on: July 21, 2021, 11:31:52 AM »
And another important headline...

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-plans-open-up-its-charging-network-other-evs-later-this-year-2021-07-20/

Quote
The electric-car maker's fast charging network, with over 25,000 superchargers globally, has given it a competitive edge.

Quote
"We're making our Supercharger network open to other EVs later this year," Musk said on Tuesday, adding that over time Tesla's charging network will be opened to other electric vehicles in all countries.

This will be interesting. First off, it's just a tweet from Elon, so massive grain of salt... Second, when/if it happens it will be really interesting to see how they implement it. Will non Tesla's have to pay more? Will they just add more superchargers so that current Tesla owners won't be inconvenienced by other EVs taking up Supercharger space for long periods of time?

I had a similar thought too - it would frustrate a lot of Tesla owners if slow charging cars were using up all the supercharger spots.

Short term vs long term.  Short term it might cause some issues but long term if it increased demand and cash flow the network could be expanded more quickly (?).  Maybe time limit slower charging cars?

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #796 on: July 21, 2021, 12:08:00 PM »
And another important headline...

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-plans-open-up-its-charging-network-other-evs-later-this-year-2021-07-20/

Quote
The electric-car maker's fast charging network, with over 25,000 superchargers globally, has given it a competitive edge.

Quote
"We're making our Supercharger network open to other EVs later this year," Musk said on Tuesday, adding that over time Tesla's charging network will be opened to other electric vehicles in all countries.

This will be interesting. First off, it's just a tweet from Elon, so massive grain of salt... Second, when/if it happens it will be really interesting to see how they implement it. Will non Tesla's have to pay more? Will they just add more superchargers so that current Tesla owners won't be inconvenienced by other EVs taking up Supercharger space for long periods of time?

I had a similar thought too - it would frustrate a lot of Tesla owners if slow charging cars were using up all the supercharger spots.

Short term vs long term.  Short term it might cause some issues but long term if it increased demand and cash flow the network could be expanded more quickly (?).  Maybe time limit slower charging cars?

There are a lot of slow chargers out there already - maybe they would do something like restrict to fast charging vehicles only, e.g. 100kw or faster charging capacity?

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #797 on: July 21, 2021, 01:07:40 PM »
From my experience, Tesla has built out their charging network where there's rarely a wait to get a charging spot. It seems very deliberate on their end.

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #798 on: July 21, 2021, 01:17:41 PM »
That's the brilliance of selling network connected vehicles directly to customers. You know where they are and where the go so you can plan charging infrastructure around it.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #799 on: July 21, 2021, 01:21:42 PM »
From my experience, Tesla has built out their charging network where there's rarely a wait to get a charging spot. It seems very deliberate on their end.

Biggest issue is with trucks entering the market they don't have pull thru stalls for trucks towing trailers

 

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