Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[Tyson]

Here is a good visualization for how inefficient your electric car is at moving you between physical spaces, compared to, say, an e-bike (remember that half of all vehicle trips in this country are less than three miles):

"Along similar lines, most people don’t understand just how much electricity EVs use, so let me give you an example. Electric car owners today would generally be thrilled to get an efficiency of four miles per kilowatt-hour. Most get less. But if you’re traveling at 65 mph on the highway, that means using 16 kilowatts to travel for one hour. In that same time, a whole-home air conditioner running at full tilt is using something like four kilowatts. So driving on the highway uses, at a bare minimum, as much electricity as running four air conditioners at once. But realistically, most EVs get less than four miles per kwh, and most people drive faster than 65 mph on the highway, so the actual effect is probably more like five or even six air conditioners. " (https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkkpw/the-manchin-climate-compromise-doubles-down-on-car-culture)

Once you get your energy from renewables, does that even matter?

[nereo]

Here is a good visualization for how inefficient your electric car is at moving you between physical spaces[...]

Wouldn't an ICE vehicle be something like a dozen air conditioners then?

So as people remove window AC units and replace them with heat pumps, is there a way of wiring them together to power your car?

[Syonyk]

But if you’re traveling at 65 mph on the highway, that means using 16 kilowatts to travel for one hour. In that same time, a whole-home air conditioner running at full tilt is using something like four kilowatts. So driving on the highway uses, at a bare minimum, as much electricity as running four air conditioners at once. But realistically, most EVs get less than four miles per kwh, and most people drive faster than 65 mph on the highway, so the actual effect is probably more like five or even six air conditioners.

... so?

Most people also don't spend all day driving at 65mph on the interstate.

Our Volt uses significantly less energy than the rest of the house does, except for some very edge case days like "three trips on a spring/fall day when we don't use any HVAC and mostly aren't home."

[GuitarStv]

Here is a good visualization for how inefficient your electric car is at moving you between physical spaces, compared to, say, an e-bike (remember that half of all vehicle trips in this country are less than three miles):

"Along similar lines, most people don’t understand just how much electricity EVs use, so let me give you an example. Electric car owners today would generally be thrilled to get an efficiency of four miles per kilowatt-hour. Most get less. But if you’re traveling at 65 mph on the highway, that means using 16 kilowatts to travel for one hour. In that same time, a whole-home air conditioner running at full tilt is using something like four kilowatts. So driving on the highway uses, at a bare minimum, as much electricity as running four air conditioners at once. But realistically, most EVs get less than four miles per kwh, and most people drive faster than 65 mph on the highway, so the actual effect is probably more like five or even six air conditioners. " (https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkkpw/the-manchin-climate-compromise-doubles-down-on-car-culture)

Once you get your energy from renewables, does that even matter?

Provided no environmental destruction takes place to generate the renewable energy - no.  I don't believe any renewables meet that description though.  Otherwise, it's always a good idea to increase efficiency.

[Raenia]

Here is a good visualization for how inefficient your electric car is at moving you between physical spaces, compared to, say, an e-bike (remember that half of all vehicle trips in this country are less than three miles):

"Along similar lines, most people don’t understand just how much electricity EVs use, so let me give you an example. Electric car owners today would generally be thrilled to get an efficiency of four miles per kilowatt-hour. Most get less. But if you’re traveling at 65 mph on the highway, that means using 16 kilowatts to travel for one hour. In that same time, a whole-home air conditioner running at full tilt is using something like four kilowatts. So driving on the highway uses, at a bare minimum, as much electricity as running four air conditioners at once. But realistically, most EVs get less than four miles per kwh, and most people drive faster than 65 mph on the highway, so the actual effect is probably more like five or even six air conditioners. " (https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkkpw/the-manchin-climate-compromise-doubles-down-on-car-culture)

Once you get your energy from renewables, does that even matter?

Once you personally get all your energy from renewables, or once the whole grid gets its energy from renewables?  In the second case, sure it probably doesn't matter.  But we're a far ways from that, so in the meantime, reducing your own usage means more of that green energy can go to other customers and still decrease total grid reliance on gas/coal.

Now if you're operating with an entirely off-grid solar system and not feeding your extra back into the grid to serve other customers, then sure, do whatever.

[Tyson]

Here is a good visualization for how inefficient your electric car is at moving you between physical spaces, compared to, say, an e-bike (remember that half of all vehicle trips in this country are less than three miles):

"Along similar lines, most people don’t understand just how much electricity EVs use, so let me give you an example. Electric car owners today would generally be thrilled to get an efficiency of four miles per kilowatt-hour. Most get less. But if you’re traveling at 65 mph on the highway, that means using 16 kilowatts to travel for one hour. In that same time, a whole-home air conditioner running at full tilt is using something like four kilowatts. So driving on the highway uses, at a bare minimum, as much electricity as running four air conditioners at once. But realistically, most EVs get less than four miles per kwh, and most people drive faster than 65 mph on the highway, so the actual effect is probably more like five or even six air conditioners. " (https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkkpw/the-manchin-climate-compromise-doubles-down-on-car-culture)

Once you get your energy from renewables, does that even matter?

Once you personally get all your energy from renewables, or once the whole grid gets its energy from renewables?  In the second case, sure it probably doesn't matter.  But we're a far ways from that, so in the meantime, reducing your own usage means more of that green energy can go to other customers and still decrease total grid reliance on gas/coal.

Now if you're operating with an entirely off-grid solar system and not feeding your extra back into the grid to serve other customers, then sure, do whatever.

I was going to put solar on my roof, but here in CO the local power company (Xcel Energy) gives you the option to get 100% of your energy from renewables.  It's a bit more expensive, but it's worth it to me.  So, yes, I do get 100% of my energy from renewables. 

Now, just gotta buy an EV at some point, lol.  I still have my 15 year old ICE car.  I keep waiting for it to die, but it seems like it might never do that because I'm about 90% walkable/bikeable.  So the car just sits there, mostly.

[pecunia]

What if I got all my power from nukes?  Would that be almost as good?

[Tyson]

What if I got all my power from nukes?  Would that be almost as good?

Good question, but I'm not sure of the answer.  I do see that the cost of building out new nuclear plants is way more expensive than building out more renewables infrastructure.  Hell, renewables are now officially cheaper than the cheapest coal options, so I think industry as a whole is going to start to pivot toward renewables simply on a cost basis alone. 

[Raenia]

Here is a good visualization for how inefficient your electric car is at moving you between physical spaces, compared to, say, an e-bike (remember that half of all vehicle trips in this country are less than three miles):

"Along similar lines, most people don’t understand just how much electricity EVs use, so let me give you an example. Electric car owners today would generally be thrilled to get an efficiency of four miles per kilowatt-hour. Most get less. But if you’re traveling at 65 mph on the highway, that means using 16 kilowatts to travel for one hour. In that same time, a whole-home air conditioner running at full tilt is using something like four kilowatts. So driving on the highway uses, at a bare minimum, as much electricity as running four air conditioners at once. But realistically, most EVs get less than four miles per kwh, and most people drive faster than 65 mph on the highway, so the actual effect is probably more like five or even six air conditioners. " (https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkkpw/the-manchin-climate-compromise-doubles-down-on-car-culture)

Once you get your energy from renewables, does that even matter?

Once you personally get all your energy from renewables, or once the whole grid gets its energy from renewables?  In the second case, sure it probably doesn't matter.  But we're a far ways from that, so in the meantime, reducing your own usage means more of that green energy can go to other customers and still decrease total grid reliance on gas/coal.

Now if you're operating with an entirely off-grid solar system and not feeding your extra back into the grid to serve other customers, then sure, do whatever.

I was going to put solar on my roof, but here in CO the local power company (Xcel Energy) gives you the option to get 100% of your energy from renewables.  It's a bit more expensive, but it's worth it to me.  So, yes, I do get 100% of my energy from renewables. 

Now, just gotta buy an EV at some point, lol.  I still have my 15 year old ICE car.  I keep waiting for it to die, but it seems like it might never do that because I'm about 90% walkable/bikeable.  So the car just sits there, mostly.

Right, so the local power company has a certain amount of renewable energy available in the grid.  That renewable energy is earmarked first to customers like you who are paying for renewable only (I do this too, it's definitely worthwhile).  However, if not all the renewable energy is earmarked away, the rest still goes into the grid to serve other customers.  So reducing your own use, even though you're on 100% renewables, still reduces the amount of fossil fuels used in the grid as a whole.

So I do think it still matters to consider energy efficiency, because less energy used by you directly improves the total fossil fuel use by your local electric company/grid.  All energy is transferrable, and renewables tend to produce however much they produce, so all energy savings are likely to come out of the fossil fuel portion of the grid generation.

[Tyson]

Here is a good visualization for how inefficient your electric car is at moving you between physical spaces, compared to, say, an e-bike (remember that half of all vehicle trips in this country are less than three miles):

"Along similar lines, most people don’t understand just how much electricity EVs use, so let me give you an example. Electric car owners today would generally be thrilled to get an efficiency of four miles per kilowatt-hour. Most get less. But if you’re traveling at 65 mph on the highway, that means using 16 kilowatts to travel for one hour. In that same time, a whole-home air conditioner running at full tilt is using something like four kilowatts. So driving on the highway uses, at a bare minimum, as much electricity as running four air conditioners at once. But realistically, most EVs get less than four miles per kwh, and most people drive faster than 65 mph on the highway, so the actual effect is probably more like five or even six air conditioners. " (https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkkpw/the-manchin-climate-compromise-doubles-down-on-car-culture)

Once you get your energy from renewables, does that even matter?

Once you personally get all your energy from renewables, or once the whole grid gets its energy from renewables?  In the second case, sure it probably doesn't matter.  But we're a far ways from that, so in the meantime, reducing your own usage means more of that green energy can go to other customers and still decrease total grid reliance on gas/coal.

Now if you're operating with an entirely off-grid solar system and not feeding your extra back into the grid to serve other customers, then sure, do whatever.

I was going to put solar on my roof, but here in CO the local power company (Xcel Energy) gives you the option to get 100% of your energy from renewables.  It's a bit more expensive, but it's worth it to me.  So, yes, I do get 100% of my energy from renewables. 

Now, just gotta buy an EV at some point, lol.  I still have my 15 year old ICE car.  I keep waiting for it to die, but it seems like it might never do that because I'm about 90% walkable/bikeable.  So the car just sits there, mostly.

Right, so the local power company has a certain amount of renewable energy available in the grid.  That renewable energy is earmarked first to customers like you who are paying for renewable only (I do this too, it's definitely worthwhile).  However, if not all the renewable energy is earmarked away, the rest still goes into the grid to serve other customers.  So reducing your own use, even though you're on 100% renewables, still reduces the amount of fossil fuels used in the grid as a whole.

So I do think it still matters to consider energy efficiency, because less energy used by you directly improves the total fossil fuel use by your local electric company/grid.  All energy is transferrable, and renewables tend to produce however much they produce, so all energy savings are likely to come out of the fossil fuel portion of the grid generation.

I completely agree!  Efficiency is important and cutting back on usage is important.  That's why any new job I get, my #1 priority is that I can work 100% remotely.  This alone cuts out 70% of the driving that I would do.  The other thing is when I find a place to live, does it have grocery stores within walking/biking distance.  That cuts out another 10% of driving.  The only thing I have left that's regular driving is taking my daughter to school, which is only 4 miles away. 

And, for anyone reading this thread, please contact your local utility to see if they offer an option to get your power from renewables.  Having a lot of customers request it (and being able to charge more for it) really does drive future decisions of the electrical company about how/where they invest money for future buildouts.  The more people that pay for it, combined with the falling cost of buildout, that really does tip the balance toward a renewable future.

[Just Joe]

Well said Synonyk.

A bit before I bought my Ford, I was looking at a Kia hybrid.  One of the things that impressed me was that they had the repair manual online.  I had to pay for Ford Repair manual on CD.

This isn't the website I saw a few years back, but looks adequate.

https://www.allcarmanuals.com/models-Kia.html

I miss Radio Shack.  Their products were often sold with schematics.

Starting about 1990 or so I always bought the factory repair manual for cars I owned. Its usually a big step up from the Haynes repair manual that is 65% generic information with a little customization for the car it is supposedly written for. I looked at one over the weekend for a GM product we own and the car in one illustration was actually a Ford Mustang. Recently I tried to locate a repair manual for my Honda product. 

No more books from Honda but I can subscribe... $25 per day. $1300 for a year. One year...

https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/logon.aspx

A proper factory manual might have cost me $125 in the past. I have one for my CRV. First repair paid for it.

[JLee]

Well said Synonyk.

A bit before I bought my Ford, I was looking at a Kia hybrid.  One of the things that impressed me was that they had the repair manual online.  I had to pay for Ford Repair manual on CD.

This isn't the website I saw a few years back, but looks adequate.

https://www.allcarmanuals.com/models-Kia.html

I miss Radio Shack.  Their products were often sold with schematics.

Starting about 1990 or so I always bought the factory repair manual for cars I owned. Its usually a big step up from the Haynes repair manual that is 65% generic information with a little customization for the car it is supposedly written for. I looked at one over the weekend for a GM product we own and the car in one illustration was actually a Ford Mustang. Recently I tried to locate a repair manual for my Honda product. 

No more books from Honda but I can subscribe... $25 per day. $1300 for a year. One year...

https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/logon.aspx

A proper factory manual might have cost me $125 in the past. I have one for my CRV. First repair paid for it.

I subscribed to the equivalent from Toyota/Lexus and downloaded everything I needed to PDF during my (short) subscription window. :D

[Raenia]

I completely agree!  Efficiency is important and cutting back on usage is important.  That's why any new job I get, my #1 priority is that I can work 100% remotely.  This alone cuts out 70% of the driving that I would do.  The other thing is when I find a place to live, does it have grocery stores within walking/biking distance.  That cuts out another 10% of driving.  The only thing I have left that's regular driving is taking my daughter to school, which is only 4 miles away. 

And, for anyone reading this thread, please contact your local utility to see if they offer an option to get your power from renewables.  Having a lot of customers request it (and being able to charge more for it) really does drive future decisions of the electrical company about how/where they invest money for future buildouts.  The more people that pay for it, combined with the falling cost of buildout, that really does tip the balance toward a renewable future.

It sounds like we agree, but could you clarify what you meant by the quoted comment?  In context, it seemed like you were saying that energy efficiency didn't matter as long as you were using renewables, but now it seems that's not what you meant.

Here is a good visualization for how inefficient your electric car is at moving you between physical spaces, compared to, say, an e-bike (remember that half of all vehicle trips in this country are less than three miles):

"Along similar lines, most people don’t understand just how much electricity EVs use, so let me give you an example. Electric car owners today would generally be thrilled to get an efficiency of four miles per kilowatt-hour. Most get less. But if you’re traveling at 65 mph on the highway, that means using 16 kilowatts to travel for one hour. In that same time, a whole-home air conditioner running at full tilt is using something like four kilowatts. So driving on the highway uses, at a bare minimum, as much electricity as running four air conditioners at once. But realistically, most EVs get less than four miles per kwh, and most people drive faster than 65 mph on the highway, so the actual effect is probably more like five or even six air conditioners. " (https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjkkpw/the-manchin-climate-compromise-doubles-down-on-car-culture)

Once you get your energy from renewables, does that even matter?

[Just Joe]

You seem to want churn of old cars to new cars to stop, that's just not going to happen.

No, I want cars built to be repairable, and that includes things like battery packs.  "Gluing together entirely custom cells you can't get anywhere else" (as Tesla is doing in their new packs) is the opposite of this approach, and leads to scrapping cars because the pack has lost capacity, and you can't get a replacement, and you can't build a replacement because it's all based around proprietary technology.

Good post. Where my tech experience overlaps your's I have seen similar things.

This situation keeps me from actually buying an EV right now as much as I think they are a good (not perfect) way forward and why I will wait for a simple EV to reach market.

The problem I see is that long term ownership will be tough when batteries are difficult to source for an older EV - and just crushing it in favor of another newer car isn't an option I am willing to entertain. Nor is buying an expensive EV that be impossible to get parts for in 15+ years. Why scrap a whole car when a replaceable part is what wore out? People do it all the time though. A walk through many scrap yards will prove that.

https://youtu.be/Ws9Y1be8N-U

Sometimes the aftermarket will supply the missing part, sometimes not. My CRV needs a new driver's side door latch. Age and miles. No aftermarket replacement. Honda wants north of $400 for the part and stock is very low. I was lucky and found one NOS online for $150. Should I just scrap the car instead? No. I don't feel good about that.

Ideally for the environment we stop throwing stuff away and keep it longer. My technology is as good as I ever want. TV looks great. Car has a/c and ABS. Smartphone works great. I don't desire anything newer or flashier at this point. Computer is from 2011 and works great (Kubuntu Linux).  Maybe my age is showing or something.

Less cars, more pedaling, more walkable places. More trains.

[Just Joe]

I subscribed to the equivalent from Toyota/Lexus and downloaded everything I needed to PDF during my (short) subscription window. :D

That is my plan when something complicated happens that I need to repair. I'll take a day off if necessary.

[Syonyk]

This situation keeps me from actually buying an EV right now as much as I think they are a good (not perfect) way forward and why I will wait for a simple EV to reach market.

Unfortunately, the trend seems to be in the other direction.  I mean, who doesn't need to be able to remotely unlock their EV from their cell phone when halfway across the planet?  That's, like, basic required function these days, apparently.

The problem I see is that long term ownership will be tough when batteries are difficult to source for an older EV - and just crushing it in favor of another newer car isn't an option I am willing to entertain. Nor is buying an expensive EV that be impossible to get parts for in 15+ years.

If you put enough miles on, it can be worth a less expensive EV just to keep miles off the other vehicles - and you can actually save money in the process.  If I had a long commute (I don't, I walk to my shed), I'd have a dedicated commuter EV, because operating costs are so much lower than on gas that it would make sense.  I knew people who did this - the early Nissan Leaf lease deals at $200/mo were, in many cases, literally cheaper than the fuel costs alone for some commutes in the Seattle area.

Why scrap a whole car when a replaceable part is what wore out? People do it all the time though. A walk through many scrap yards will prove that.

I know that, you know that, and a lot of the people designing cars and basically "all of modern consumer tech" either don't know that, or refuse to learn it.  So you end up with things that can't be easily repaired, because nobody designing them has given the slightest thought to it.

When I was in Seattle, almost all my coworkers thought I was a special sort of weird for doing my own work on cars, motorcycles, etc.  Why wouldn't I?  Apparently, the sort of activities that get grease under your nails are very blue collar, and therefore icky.  We don't do that stuff, we pay people to do that stuff!  I spent the better part of a nice Saturday redoing the front end of my truck's engine (thermostat replacement sort of went sideways, ended up doing the water pump, serpentine, and both main coolant hoses while I was in there because if you've got the coolant drained that far, may as well), and people were just baffled that I'd spent a day doing that.  I figure I saved at least $1000 over shop costs to do it, and the water pump was leaking, so it needed doing anyway.

But even in the realm of what I consider basic electronics repair, I was the only one in the office who would do that stuff.  Busted cell phone?  Yeah, I'll buy it from you and replace the screen, you'll see it listed on the local buy/sell group in a week.  Laptop with a bad charge port?  Sure, I can fix it.  I've got a soldering iron and can read a teardown manual just as well as the next guy.  Replace a cell phone battery?  No big deal, I can do it in 5 minutes at my desk (I did a lot of those on one model of corp phone that had some battery issues - the Sony cells just weren't lasting like the others).  But it was a big office and I was the only one doing any of this stuff.  It was weird.

Ideally for the environment we stop throwing stuff away and keep it longer. My technology is as good as I ever want. TV looks great. Car has a/c and ABS. Smartphone works great. I don't desire anything newer or flashier at this point. Computer is from 2011 and works great (Kubuntu Linux).  Maybe my age is showing or something.

But, but... think of the profit margins!  Won't someone think of the CEO's children?  Anyway, good news, your TV will die in 5 years anyway, so you'll get to replace it then!  You couldn't possibly consider life worth living without at least a 75" TV these days, could you?

The good news is that if you're willing to repair stuff, there's a ton of nice stuff being discarded.  But more and more it looks like EVs are being designed to inhibit that.  Which is very annoying.  I got around for a decade on the gap between when someone else thought a car should go to the junkyard and when I thought it should.

[Just Joe]

When I was in Seattle, almost all my coworkers thought I was a special sort of weird for doing my own work on cars, motorcycles, etc.  Why wouldn't I?  Apparently, the sort of activities that get grease under your nails are very blue collar, and therefore icky.  We don't do that stuff, we pay people to do that stuff!  I spent the better part of a nice Saturday redoing the front end of my truck's engine (thermostat replacement sort of went sideways, ended up doing the water pump, serpentine, and both main coolant hoses while I was in there because if you've got the coolant drained that far, may as well), and people were just baffled that I'd spent a day doing that.  I figure I saved at least $1000 over shop costs to do it, and the water pump was leaking, so it needed doing anyway.

Yep, our other car - our "travel car" is on jackstands in my driveway right now. Based on prices I saw in the brand forum I'm literally saving thousands of dollars for my DIY time and a few hundred dollars of parts - both OEM and aftermarket. We really like the car but wouldn't if we were reliant on a dealer for service.

[AccidentialMustache]

The good news is that if you're willing to repair stuff, there's a ton of nice stuff being discarded.  But more and more it looks like EVs are being designed to inhibit that.  Which is very annoying.  I got around for a decade on the gap between when someone else thought a car should go to the junkyard and when I thought it should.

More than anything it sounds like you want an open source (software + hardware), modular/reconfigurable, EV-refresh kit. That doesn't sound impossible. Nor really unreasonable. Not something that exists today of course. The crazy types have been DIYing EV conversions on random scrapheap specials for years... but without any of that "I should do this in a way I can re-use it on the next one" parts.

It just needs a few folks with just enough experience in all of said disciplines to decide to make a thing. And while I'm sure the first response is, "that's too much work" -- so is Linux and the whole open source toolchains that make a Linux box go, if you were trying to build it from scratch rather than over the last few decades.

It has to start somewhere. Could be you!

[Syonyk]

It has to start somewhere. Could be you!

Damn it, I have enough other projects that need my attention.

Linux on the RK3588.

Qubes on ARM.

Solar power trailers for Owyhee Mountain Power.

[BDWW]

There's quite a bit of cell re-use in the diy community. People use old tesla batteries for power walls and such.  Then there is a  fairly robust  and growing community of lower power EV stuff - Ebikes, scooters, e-carts, RC, etc.  I imagine it won't be too long until more people get on board the high-voltage, high power stuff, but it'll be niche due to the danger involved.

Right now 72V nominal (84V max 20s *4.2v) is about where the DIY community has topped out. Even with massive surge current capability, you're looking at applications of < 50hp   (300A*84V ~= 25KW / .75 ~= 33hp). 

Once high-voltage EVs have a longer history and better market penetration, the after market will hopefully start develop applications for it.

From my understanding it took the Ford flathead V8 being on the market in large numbers before the aftermarket hot rod community really grew into it's own.

[sonofsven]

There's quite a bit of cell re-use in the diy community. People use old tesla batteries for power walls and such.  Then there is a  fairly robust  and growing community of lower power EV stuff - Ebikes, scooters, e-carts, RC, etc.  I imagine it won't be too long until more people get on board the high-voltage, high power stuff, but it'll be niche due to the danger involved.

Right now 72V nominal (84V max 20s *4.2v) is about where the DIY community has topped out. Even with massive surge current capability, you're looking at applications of < 50hp   (300A*84V ~= 25KW / .75 ~= 33hp). 

Once high-voltage EVs have a longer history and better market penetration, the after market will hopefully start develop applications for it.

From my understanding it took the Ford flathead V8 being on the market in large numbers before the aftermarket hot rod community really grew into it's own.

And a world war!

[Syonyk]

There's quite a bit of cell re-use in the diy community. People use old tesla batteries for power walls and such.

Sure, but that's "using old car batteries and such for other storage," not generating new car batteries in most cases.

I imagine it won't be too long until more people get on board the high-voltage, high power stuff, but it'll be niche due to the danger involved.

And you still can't rebuild, from new cells, almost anyone's EV packs.  I literally can't get the cells for the Volt at this point except as used.

Once high-voltage EVs have a longer history and better market penetration, the after market will hopefully start develop applications for it.

Perhaps.  And I expect Tesla to sue the first creator of aftermarket packs.  You know, for "safety" reasons.

[BDWW]

There's quite a bit of cell re-use in the diy community. People use old tesla batteries for power walls and such.

Sure, but that's "using old car batteries and such for other storage," not generating new car batteries in most cases.

I imagine it won't be too long until more people get on board the high-voltage, high power stuff, but it'll be niche due to the danger involved.

And you still can't rebuild, from new cells, almost anyone's EV packs.  I literally can't get the cells for the Volt at this point except as used.

Once high-voltage EVs have a longer history and better market penetration, the after market will hopefully start develop applications for it.

Perhaps.  And I expect Tesla to sue the first creator of aftermarket packs.  You know, for "safety" reasons.

You're not wrong, but right now the bigger issue is right to repair and digital locks.  Tesla could sue, and perhaps create a chilling effect, but the magnuson moss act has a long history and substantial precedence in the automotive space and they likely wouldn't win if there's the will/money to fight it.

The bigger issue is what happens when(maybe they have already) pair the BMS to motor/controller. There's a company called Future Motion that software locks the BMS to the controller on the OneWheel boards you might've seen around.  Such that if you try to replace the battery, it will refuse to turn on.  There's already an aftermarket company producing a bypass for it, but FM is trying to sue them. Thus far it looks promising they'll win, but it's a huge expenditure and waste for resources to fight this nonsense.   

Curious, with your Volt, is it that the cells are unique, a software lock/BMS issue? I mean what's stopping you(or someone else) from building the rough equivalent with different cells?

[Syonyk]

Curious, with your Volt, is it that the cells are unique, a software lock/BMS issue? I mean what's stopping you(or someone else) from building the rough equivalent with different cells?

The cells are a particular form with coolant passages through them.  It would be a literal entire pack re-engineering, including heating and cooling systems, to use something of a different shape.  Not impossible, but far from a casual effort, and a low volume pack would likely cost as much as the car did new, if not a few times, by the time you got all the custom machining done.

[Just Joe]

It just needs a few folks with just enough experience in all of said disciplines to decide to make a thing. And while I'm sure the first response is, "that's too much work" -- so is Linux and the whole open source toolchains that make a Linux box go, if you were trying to build it from scratch rather than over the last few decades.

It has to start somewhere. Could be you!

Yep. I'll be repeating this project using Nissan Leaf battery modules in the next year as my lead-acid batteries are declining.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/electrak/posts/10158741624394813/

I've got to say, I LOVE having an electric garden tractor. Reduced noise when mowing, no poisonous exhaust in my face, less vibration, etc. Capable 50 year old machine.

[Just Joe]

Listened to this while I worked on our car today: https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium?orgid=578

Another level of battery tech I had not even imagined.

[AccidentialMustache]

So how about that new EV credit, due to be signed tomorrow? https://electrek.co/2022/08/15/biden-will-sign-inflation-reduction-act-tomorrow-affecting-ev-credits/

We had been looking at trading in the problem-child for a HI5 or EV6 but those won't qualify anymore. Maybe that'll mean we can find a HI5 Limited to test drive if sales slow down.

On the flip side, if Chevy doesn't raise the price in response, a 250+ mile Bolt EV for under 20 grand? That's crazy good, even with its kinda garbage DCFC speeds. CT or IL (and others?) and can take another 4-5k off. Priced under 15k after rebates? Madness. Put that on the ultium platform to fix the charging speed and they'd never catch up with demand.

[kenmoremmm]

So how about that new EV credit, due to be signed tomorrow? https://electrek.co/2022/08/15/biden-will-sign-inflation-reduction-act-tomorrow-affecting-ev-credits/

We had been looking at trading in the problem-child for a HI5 or EV6 but those won't qualify anymore. Maybe that'll mean we can find a HI5 Limited to test drive if sales slow down.

On the flip side, if Chevy doesn't raise the price in response, a 250+ mile Bolt EV for under 20 grand? That's crazy good, even with its kinda garbage DCFC speeds. CT or IL (and others?) and can take another 4-5k off. Priced under 15k after rebates? Madness. Put that on the ultium platform to fix the charging speed and they'd never catch up with demand.

we love our 2017 bolt. no big commute or anything like that for us. have done several 1000+ mile road trips and the charging speed isn't optimal, but it works.

[chemistk]

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/california-new-gas-car-ban

Not too many top-level news sources posting this yet, but I've seen it come up enough in my algorithmically shoved-down-my-throat suggested "news feed". It looks like California, thanks to the Biden administration's rollback of the Trump emissions rules (specifically for CA anyway), is set to create a rule which would cease the sales of new ICE vehicles by 2035.

Will this actually stick, through the inevitable flurry of lawsuits and through a couple more Presidencies? Who knows. But if it sticks around, it's likely to be adopted by a number of other states.

Ford's already (according to them) gearing up to be primarily an EV company by laying off a bunch of corporate staff, and Toyota recently lost a lawsuit against CA so now they have knelt before CARB and formally recognized the might of its authority. 

[AlanStache]

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/california-new-gas-car-ban

Not too many top-level news sources posting this yet, but I've seen it come up enough in my algorithmically shoved-down-my-throat suggested "news feed". It looks like California, thanks to the Biden administration's rollback of the Trump emissions rules (specifically for CA anyway), is set to create a rule which would cease the sales of new ICE vehicles by 2035.

Will this actually stick, through the inevitable flurry of lawsuits and through a couple more Presidencies? Who knows. But if it sticks around, it's likely to be adopted by a number of other states.

Ford's already (according to them) gearing up to be primarily an EV company by laying off a bunch of corporate staff, and Toyota recently lost a lawsuit against CA so now they have knelt before CARB and formally recognized the might of its authority.

Article only says "cars" I presume the law would include everything short of work trucks and semis? 

I would love to see it written into the law that for a vehicle to be counted as a "work truck" you have to take it to an pre-school and let 10 kids whack on it with hammers for 60 seconds.  Or that people are free to bump shopping carts into it outside Whole Foods.

[Telecaster]

Solar power trailers for Owyhee Mountain Power.

Those are cool!   

[Paper Chaser]

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/california-new-gas-car-ban

Not too many top-level news sources posting this yet, but I've seen it come up enough in my algorithmically shoved-down-my-throat suggested "news feed". It looks like California, thanks to the Biden administration's rollback of the Trump emissions rules (specifically for CA anyway), is set to create a rule which would cease the sales of new ICE vehicles by 2035.

Will this actually stick, through the inevitable flurry of lawsuits and through a couple more Presidencies? Who knows. But if it sticks around, it's likely to be adopted by a number of other states.

Ford's already (according to them) gearing up to be primarily an EV company by laying off a bunch of corporate staff, and Toyota recently lost a lawsuit against CA so now they have knelt before CARB and formally recognized the might of its authority.

To add some clarity to this, PHEVs will still be allowed to be sold after 2035 with this new mandate. So there will still be ICE's being sold/used in some capacity. Since many people may not have places to charge regularly, and public charging can be challenging, I'm going to bet that many of those PHEVs will rarely be charged up, and simply driven as standard hybrids by people in that situation. At least that's what's happening in Europe:

https://theicct.org/publication/real-world-phev-use-jun22/

That's likely still an improvement compared to the current situation, but it's probably not the ZEV picture that many people have in mind when they read articles like this.

[Syonyk]

Those are cool!

If you're ever coming through the Boise area, hit me up and I can let you know if we've got them out running somewhere!  They're both out at the Nampa Farmer's Market most Saturdays, and various other places too.  I tow the little one behind the Volt without trouble, and I can tow the big one, but I'd generally rather not - it's up on the limit of what I'm willing to tow with the Volt, so the guy with the pickup usually tows that one.  He's running his well pump on it during the week too, so it just goes home with him.  I'll probably have the big one this winter to back up my office, though.  Beats generator use by a good amount.

[NorCal]

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/california-new-gas-car-ban

Not too many top-level news sources posting this yet, but I've seen it come up enough in my algorithmically shoved-down-my-throat suggested "news feed". It looks like California, thanks to the Biden administration's rollback of the Trump emissions rules (specifically for CA anyway), is set to create a rule which would cease the sales of new ICE vehicles by 2035.

Will this actually stick, through the inevitable flurry of lawsuits and through a couple more Presidencies? Who knows. But if it sticks around, it's likely to be adopted by a number of other states.

Ford's already (according to them) gearing up to be primarily an EV company by laying off a bunch of corporate staff, and Toyota recently lost a lawsuit against CA so now they have knelt before CARB and formally recognized the might of its authority.

To add some clarity to this, PHEVs will still be allowed to be sold after 2035 with this new mandate. So there will still be ICE's being sold/used in some capacity. Since many people may not have places to charge regularly, and public charging can be challenging, I'm going to bet that many of those PHEVs will rarely be charged up, and simply driven as standard hybrids by people in that situation. At least that's what's happening in Europe:

https://theicct.org/publication/real-world-phev-use-jun22/

That's likely still an improvement compared to the current situation, but it's probably not the ZEV picture that many people have in mind when they read articles like this.

While true, my understanding is that PHEV's would have a minimum electric range of 50 miles.  Although I can't find my original source for that information, so correct me if I'm wrong.  So even those PHEV's will use pretty minimal gas.

With that big of a shift in the market, it's likely that there will be places in CA (and states that follow CA's lead) where you won't be able to find gas stations starting around 2040ish.  Gas stations are already low-margin businesses that rely on a lot of foot traffic to survive.  I recall reading that the "average" independent gas station generates something like $40k in profit per year for its owner, although that number is probably dated.  I could see the gas station business model starting to fail with only a 10-20% drop in foot traffic. 

I also don't see the gas station retail format being particularly useful for just adding EV chargers to, although gas stations will try.  I think the EV charger networks will evolve to mix with retail/food locations that match a typical EV charge session time.  For example, Starbucks is piloting an EV corridor from Denver to Seattle, and we'll probably see more EV chargers at grocery stores to encourage people to spend a few more minutes in the store while charging.  There are real business models here beyond just selling electricity.  Like gas stations, the money won't be made on the electricity, it will be made on everything purchased while people are charging.

Once gas stations start becoming an inconvenience to find, even PHEV's will have a hard time selling.  It will be the inverse of today's situation with difficulty finding EV chargers in some places. 

[AlanStache]

On-demand gas services may kill off the remaining 'gas'-stations in some areas.   https://www.gasitup.com/home

When people visit my area two things strike them:
1) We have A-LOT of churches, over four days a guest counted over forty. 
2) We have A-LOT of convince stores, there are places that are not even that dense where there will be two 7-11's within blocks of each other.  many without gas pumps. 

Might be a function of lower land value, lower labor rates and some quirk of taxes?  I dont know.

[dandarc]

On-demand gas services may kill off the remaining 'gas'-stations in some areas.   https://www.gasitup.com/home

When people visit my area two things strike them:
1) We have A-LOT of churches, over four days a guest counted over forty. 
2) We have A-LOT of convince stores, there are places that are not even that dense where there will be two 7-11's within blocks of each other.  many without gas pumps. 

Might be a function of lower land value, lower labor rates and some quirk of taxes?  I dont know.

"Save time - No one likes to waste time! The average driver spends at least 7 minutes per trip to the gas station. That adds up to 12 hours a year!" 7 minutes!

Just find that line amusing more than anything. Also approaching two trips to a gas station per week seems high to me.

[Travis]

https://gearjunkie.com/motors/california-new-gas-car-ban

Not too many top-level news sources posting this yet, but I've seen it come up enough in my algorithmically shoved-down-my-throat suggested "news feed". It looks like California, thanks to the Biden administration's rollback of the Trump emissions rules (specifically for CA anyway), is set to create a rule which would cease the sales of new ICE vehicles by 2035.

Will this actually stick, through the inevitable flurry of lawsuits and through a couple more Presidencies? Who knows. But if it sticks around, it's likely to be adopted by a number of other states.

Ford's already (according to them) gearing up to be primarily an EV company by laying off a bunch of corporate staff, and Toyota recently lost a lawsuit against CA so now they have knelt before CARB and formally recognized the might of its authority.

To add some clarity to this, PHEVs will still be allowed to be sold after 2035 with this new mandate. So there will still be ICE's being sold/used in some capacity. Since many people may not have places to charge regularly, and public charging can be challenging, I'm going to bet that many of those PHEVs will rarely be charged up, and simply driven as standard hybrids by people in that situation. At least that's what's happening in Europe:

https://theicct.org/publication/real-world-phev-use-jun22/

That's likely still an improvement compared to the current situation, but it's probably not the ZEV picture that many people have in mind when they read articles like this.

While true, my understanding is that PHEV's would have a minimum electric range of 50 miles.  Although I can't find my original source for that information, so correct me if I'm wrong.  So even those PHEV's will use pretty minimal gas.

With that big of a shift in the market, it's likely that there will be places in CA (and states that follow CA's lead) where you won't be able to find gas stations starting around 2040ish.  Gas stations are already low-margin businesses that rely on a lot of foot traffic to survive.  I recall reading that the "average" independent gas station generates something like $40k in profit per year for its owner, although that number is probably dated.  I could see the gas station business model starting to fail with only a 10-20% drop in foot traffic. 

I also don't see the gas station retail format being particularly useful for just adding EV chargers to, although gas stations will try.  I think the EV charger networks will evolve to mix with retail/food locations that match a typical EV charge session time.  For example, Starbucks is piloting an EV corridor from Denver to Seattle, and we'll probably see more EV chargers at grocery stores to encourage people to spend a few more minutes in the store while charging.  There are real business models here beyond just selling electricity.  Like gas stations, the money won't be made on the electricity, it will be made on everything purchased while people are charging.

Once gas stations start becoming an inconvenience to find, even PHEV's will have a hard time selling.  It will be the inverse of today's situation with difficulty finding EV chargers in some places.

There will be "surviving" gas stations at critical points in much the same way there are charging stations now. The catch is they'll be charging quite a bit more knowing that they're the only place to find gasoline. I think we're a long ways off though. Buying ICE vehicles out of state and paying to ship them will probably pick up for a while until more states enact this kind of legislation.

[LennStar]

I also don't see the gas station retail format being particularly useful for just adding EV chargers to, although gas stations will try.  I think the EV charger networks will evolve to mix with retail/food locations that match a typical EV charge session time.  For example, Starbucks is piloting an EV corridor from Denver to Seattle, and we'll probably see more EV chargers at grocery stores to encourage people to spend a few more minutes in the store while charging.  There are real business models here beyond just selling electricity.  Like gas stations, the money won't be made on the electricity, it will be made on everything purchased while people are charging.

I do hope they use their incredibly large, empty roofs to put up solar panels at least. They don't have customers in the night anyway.

[Just Joe]

On-demand gas services may kill off the remaining 'gas'-stations in some areas.   https://www.gasitup.com/home

When people visit my area two things strike them:
1) We have A-LOT of churches, over four days a guest counted over forty. 
2) We have A-LOT of convince stores, there are places that are not even that dense where there will be two 7-11's within blocks of each other.  many without gas pumps. 

Might be a function of lower land value, lower labor rates and some quirk of taxes?  I dont know.

"Save time - No one likes to waste time! The average driver spends at least 7 minutes per trip to the gas station. That adds up to 12 hours a year!" 7 minutes!

Just find that line amusing more than anything. Also approaching two trips to a gas station per week seems high to me.

I know someone who has for decades run around on a quarter of a tank. It is not a money thing. I've never understood it. Stops several times per week and its not about lottery tickets or food.

[RWD]

To add some clarity to this, PHEVs will still be allowed to be sold after 2035 with this new mandate.

While true, my understanding is that PHEV's would have a minimum electric range of 50 miles.  Although I can't find my original source for that information, so correct me if I'm wrong.  So even those PHEV's will use pretty minimal gas.

Yes. Minimum range of 50 miles and only 20% of a manufacturer's vehicles can be PHEVs.
https://electrek.co/2022/08/25/ca-finalizes-2035-gas-car-ban-a-huge-deal-but-why-not-sooner/

[gooki]

It's highly likely a PHEV with 50 miles of range will cost more than a BEV in 2035, except maybe some of the larger vehicle sizes.

[gooki]

Actually we're probably there already today with the BYD Atto 3 costing less than the comparable Toyota RAV4 Prime.

[rocketpj]

Just got back from a week at a cabin in the Cariboo region of BC.  About 700 km (434 miles).  Used our EV for the trip, with zero hassle.

Over the past couple of years various private operators, as well as BC Hydro (energy company) have set up fast charging stations at almost every little 1 horse town along the highways.  In both directions we drove for a few hours, stopped at a fast charger for an hour and ate our lunch in a nice spot, then drove the rest of the way. 

One of the fast chargers cost me $12 to 'fill up'.  The other one the charge up was provided 'free' by the local small business association - it was right in the middle of the local business centre with multiple restaurants around.  On that stop we did the obvious thing and enjoyed a restaurant lunch while the car 'filled up' for free (we ate packed sandwiches the other time).

Total fuel cost of the holiday: $12, plus whatever trivial electrical cost at my house before/after the trip.

If I drive for 3-4 hours I want a break anyway.  In literally every way, our EV is better than any ICE I've ever owned.  I'm not the only one to notice this, and I have zero doubt that the ICE is a doomed model outside of antiques and some novelty vehicles.

[nereo]

On-demand gas services may kill off the remaining 'gas'-stations in some areas.   https://www.gasitup.com/home

When people visit my area two things strike them:
1) We have A-LOT of churches, over four days a guest counted over forty. 
2) We have A-LOT of convince stores, there are places that are not even that dense where there will be two 7-11's within blocks of each other.  many without gas pumps. 

Might be a function of lower land value, lower labor rates and some quirk of taxes?  I dont know.

"Save time - No one likes to waste time! The average driver spends at least 7 minutes per trip to the gas station. That adds up to 12 hours a year!" 7 minutes!

Just find that line amusing more than anything. Also approaching two trips to a gas station per week seems high to me.

I do kinda get this sentiment though… one of the unexpected outcomes of getting a plug-in is I realized just how much don’t like going to petrol stations to fill up (which I still have to do with company work truck). It’s just so nice starting each morning with a full battery and never needing to deal with teh whole fueling experience.

I do hope they use their incredibly large, empty roofs to put up solar panels at least. They don't have customers in the night anyway.

Sarcasm?

[scottish]

Just got back from a week at a cabin in the Cariboo region of BC.  About 700 km (434 miles).  Used our EV for the trip, with zero hassle.

Over the past couple of years various private operators, as well as BC Hydro (energy company) have set up fast charging stations at almost every little 1 horse town along the highways.  In both directions we drove for a few hours, stopped at a fast charger for an hour and ate our lunch in a nice spot, then drove the rest of the way. 

One of the fast chargers cost me $12 to 'fill up'.  The other one the charge up was provided 'free' by the local small business association - it was right in the middle of the local business centre with multiple restaurants around.  On that stop we did the obvious thing and enjoyed a restaurant lunch while the car 'filled up' for free (we ate packed sandwiches the other time).

Total fuel cost of the holiday: $12, plus whatever trivial electrical cost at my house before/after the trip.

If I drive for 3-4 hours I want a break anyway.  In literally every way, our EV is better than any ICE I've ever owned.  I'm not the only one to notice this, and I have zero doubt that the ICE is a doomed model outside of antiques and some novelty vehicles.

Nice.  Which EV do you have?

[LennStar]

I do hope they use their incredibly large, empty roofs to put up solar panels at least. They don't have customers in the night anyway.

Sarcasm?

Em... no? Are your supermarkets open in the night? (even if they have, certainly far less than at the day, where the sun can charge the cars.

[nereo]

I do hope they use their incredibly large, empty roofs to put up solar panels at least. They don't have customers in the night anyway.

Sarcasm?

Em... no? Are your supermarkets open in the night? (even if they have, certainly far less than at the day, where the sun can charge the cars.

Yes, our supermarkets are typically open late, with a lot of traffic.  Looking at our two major chains in teh area, one closes at 10:00pm, the other at 11:00pm.  Google tells me the peak shopping for both is from 4-7pm, with the most traffic around 6pm (coinciding with people getting home from work, I guess).  In our neck of the woods that puts you at dusk/dark for about half the year.

FWIW I’m a big proponent of installing EV chargers at places like grocery stores, and I frequent one that offers charging for just that reason. Syonyk wrote a great article about why it’s literally better to give L2 charging for free in these places rather than pay to install a metered station such as ChargePoint. But the comment about not being open when it’s dark just struck me as odd, since most of my shopping is done exactly then. Different experiences in different locations, i guess…

[JLee]

I do hope they use their incredibly large, empty roofs to put up solar panels at least. They don't have customers in the night anyway.

Sarcasm?

Em... no? Are your supermarkets open in the night? (even if they have, certainly far less than at the day, where the sun can charge the cars.

Yes, our supermarkets are typically open late, with a lot of traffic.  Looking at our two major chains in teh area, one closes at 10:00pm, the other at 11:00pm.  Google tells me the peak shopping for both is from 4-7pm, with the most traffic around 6pm (coinciding with people getting home from work, I guess).  In our neck of the woods that puts you at dusk/dark for about half the year.

FWIW I’m a big proponent of installing EV chargers at places like grocery stores, and I frequent one that offers charging for just that reason. Syonyk wrote a great article about why it’s literally better to give L2 charging for free in these places rather than pay to install a metered station such as ChargePoint. But the comment about not being open when it’s dark just struck me as odd, since most of my shopping is done exactly then. Different experiences in different locations, i guess…

My preferred local supermarket is also open 7am to midnight, and sunset is around 4:30pm in the middle of winter.

Time is not super relevant as solar is not wired directly into a device - it's either fed into the power grid or into a battery system.  That could be structured either as a way to offset grid load during the day or charging battery systems that would charge cars when needed.

[LennStar]

I do hope they use their incredibly large, empty roofs to put up solar panels at least. They don't have customers in the night anyway.

Sarcasm?

Em... no? Are your supermarkets open in the night? (even if they have, certainly far less than at the day, where the sun can charge the cars.

Yes, our supermarkets are typically open late, with a lot of traffic.  Looking at our two major chains in teh area, one closes at 10:00pm, the other at 11:00pm.  Google tells me the peak shopping for both is from 4-7pm, with the most traffic around 6pm (coinciding with people getting home from work, I guess).  In our neck of the woods that puts you at dusk/dark for about half the year.

FWIW I’m a big proponent of installing EV chargers at places like grocery stores, and I frequent one that offers charging for just that reason. Syonyk wrote a great article about why it’s literally better to give L2 charging for free in these places rather than pay to install a metered station such as ChargePoint. But the comment about not being open when it’s dark just struck me as odd, since most of my shopping is done exactly then. Different experiences in different locations, i guess…

hm..
Our rush hour is not that late (because we start earlier with the workday). Also if nearly half of the people are pensioneers, it tends to distribute the demand over the light hours. Once it's TV Prime Time (20:15) it's close to empty here. So I would say 80% are between 9 and 19:00.

[Just Joe]

After 2035 in CA - will people be able to import ICE cars from other states? If someone moves to CA, will they be able to bring their ICE car with them?