Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 523980 times)

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #950 on: August 24, 2021, 05:46:37 PM »
Sooner or later someone will get clever and realize a trailer is a great place to mount a range-extender engine (or spare battery pack, or fuel cell) and tow capable EVs will get a plug on the rear fender for power going "the other way." You don't even have to haul the range-extender around when you don't need it, unlike a PHEV.

Or we will find that you can either have a lake, or tow a camper to it.

But by that time everything around the lake will long be ash.

(To clarify, I'm not blaming the entire climate change thing on the recreational camper users. And I have plenty of wasteful carbon emissions to cut myself, guilty as charged.  But the whole notion of needing to do something recreational in the face of the existential crisis strikes me as a perfect example of why we are all doomed.)
You'll love me then I live on a lake with a boat made to plow water and plan to tow it to a different lake 2x a year to plow some different water. Then borrow my cousins camper to go see national parks.

Like you said we all could cut things climate crisis is real. I debate this alot. When my stache goes up 50% in Fi I'll convert my water plow to electric. Still not the best but better than now

shuffler

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #951 on: August 24, 2021, 06:57:14 PM »
Sooner or later someone will get clever and realize a trailer is a great place to mount a range-extender engine (or spare battery pack, or fuel cell) ...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/08/this-teardrop-trailer-could-be-perfect-for-electric-vehicle-camping/

Quote
Much of that weight is due to the Boulder's battery pack, which is built into the trailer's frame. The idea is that the trailer's 75 kWh lithium-ion pack can recharge your EV at your destination.

Chaplin

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #952 on: August 24, 2021, 10:10:59 PM »
Yeah I need it to get to a lake 2x a year that's 200 miles away. All data I've read tells me it will cut range in half. So I'll have to stop and charge half way or so and if I want to tow my cousins camper I have to charge every 2 hours of road time on road trips if it takes the 300 to 150. Really need 400 to 450 for it to work towing if range gets cut in half imo. But I currently do neither of those things. And don't own a truck. So whatever it can do increases my options.

Sooner or later someone will get clever and realize a trailer is a great place to mount a range-extender engine (or spare battery pack, or fuel cell) and tow capable EVs will get a plug on the rear fender for power going "the other way." You don't even have to haul the range-extender around when you don't need it, unlike a PHEV.

Many people have realized it. The first one I heard of (as a concept) must have been close to ten years ago.



If it's part of a bigger trailer (RV, for example), I can see it happening, but I don't give it much of a chance in the configuration shown in the picture. The car has to be made to support accepting the charge at the same time as driving, and any given EV owner might only need one rarely enough to make the economics of developing and building them pretty poor, even if they are a rental item. Cars with reasonably-sized batteries, and reasonably fast charging deal with the vast majority of the use cases. They're like battery-swapping - a lot of effort to solve a problem that is small and getting smaller. Again RVs and other towing applications with something built into those trailers are a different story.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #953 on: August 25, 2021, 04:09:54 AM »
Ford says that higher than expected demand for their Lightning F150 model means they'll double their expected production from 40k units annually to 80k by 2024

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/exclusive-ford-doubles-lightning-production-target-strong-pre-launch-demand-2021-08-23/

That's still a fairly small percentage of overall Ford truck sales, but it's still promising

Yeah and the standout is only 15k being made next year. At least it stands out to me since I pre-ordered.

It will be interesting to see which trim levels they prioritize early on in production. The current trend in vehicles, especially EVs, is to start selling the higher priced, highest profit trim levels first. For the Lightning, that would be $50k+ trucks with luxury features and tech geared more toward suburban dads. BUT, Ford has massive fleet sales, and offering EVs for fleet customers has been a big part of their decision making recently (with an EV Transit van and cheaper, more spartan versions of the Lightning). So if a big part of the current interest is coming from fleets, maybe they buck the trend and actually put out some of the cheaper models first to get them in the hands of some of their best customers? I'm not sure the bean counters will let that happen, but it's probably not the worst idea. They'd have to have all of the bugs worked out though. Suburban dads are more likely to tolerate some hiccups than fleets that need their trucks to work in order to make money. Either way, it's something that I'll be interested in watching over the next year or two.

gaja

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #954 on: August 25, 2021, 04:51:28 AM »
Dethleffs has made a caravan with battery and motors: https://www.erwinhymergroup.com/en/press/news/dethleffs-ehome-coco

lemonlyman

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #955 on: August 25, 2021, 09:05:20 AM »
Why is Ford moving so slowly? 80,000 produced in 2024 is a crawl of a ramp. The market for that is so much larger and that truck looks rad. It's possible they're just sandbagging for market surprise with their valuations in 2023/2024. Usually not a bad move.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #956 on: August 25, 2021, 09:34:46 AM »
Why is Ford moving so slowly? 80,000 produced in 2024 is a crawl of a ramp. The market for that is so much larger and that truck looks rad. It's possible they're just sandbagging for market surprise with their valuations in 2023/2024. Usually not a bad move.

I'd guess that it comes down to battery capacity and profitability.
Tesla cranks out as many EVs as they do because they have massive battery capacity, and there's no more profitable version right across the showroom. Ford doesn't have the battery capacity yet, and I'd guess that a $40k ICE F150 makes them higher profit than a $40k EV F150.
I suppose production constraints may come into play as well if EV F150s are made in the same facilities as ICE F150s.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #957 on: August 25, 2021, 10:47:37 AM »
Why is Ford moving so slowly? 80,000 produced in 2024 is a crawl of a ramp. The market for that is so much larger and that truck looks rad. It's possible they're just sandbagging for market surprise with their valuations in 2023/2024. Usually not a bad move.

Did they know these were going to be so popular?  Always remember the Edsel.

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #958 on: August 25, 2021, 11:39:56 AM »
Why is Ford moving so slowly? 80,000 produced in 2024 is a crawl of a ramp. The market for that is so much larger and that truck looks rad. It's possible they're just sandbagging for market surprise with their valuations in 2023/2024. Usually not a bad move.

Did they know these were going to be so popular?  Always remember the Edsel.

Pretty simple statistical cost curves tell us they're going to be wildly popular. Economics sway people faster than other things then add on all the advantages of an EV with only one limited short coming - distance and recharge times which affect most people less than 1% of their time in vehicles. In a year they're going to be talking about half the f150 fleet being ev by 2024/25.

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #959 on: August 25, 2021, 01:27:28 PM »
What I don't understand is that nobody seems to produce camper (and mobile homes and all that) electrified with PV on the top.
The roof is a fairly big space. Even if you park in the shadow you should get at least 100W out of it (and more if you use a different type of cell which has lower on sun but much higher diffuse light use). That should suffice for the normal small TV or phone charger. And you could even slowly charge your car range. And in the sun it would shadow the vehicle a bit, making the temperature inside better.

Also it would make you less dependend on charging stations on route (you could probably get 50km out of this system in the summer sun before you run dry from a full charge) and charge you up while you camp.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #960 on: August 25, 2021, 01:53:47 PM »
What I don't understand is that nobody seems to produce camper (and mobile homes and all that) electrified with PV on the top.
The roof is a fairly big space. Even if you park in the shadow you should get at least 100W out of it (and more if you use a different type of cell which has lower on sun but much higher diffuse light use). That should suffice for the normal small TV or phone charger. And you could even slowly charge your car range. And in the sun it would shadow the vehicle a bit, making the temperature inside better.

Also it would make you less dependend on charging stations on route (you could probably get 50km out of this system in the summer sun before you run dry from a full charge) and charge you up while you camp.

Shade really kills solar generation -- I have 13.2 kW on my house/garage and can do ~1.7 mWh in a good month, but less than half of that in off-peak seasons (less sun / worse angle). 

If you somehow managed to sustain 100 watts over an 8 hour period on a small mobile array and you were getting Model 3 efficiency, that'd provide 3-4 miles of additional range.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #961 on: August 25, 2021, 02:25:07 PM »
What I don't understand is that nobody seems to produce camper (and mobile homes and all that) electrified with PV on the top.
The roof is a fairly big space. Even if you park in the shadow you should get at least 100W out of it (and more if you use a different type of cell which has lower on sun but much higher diffuse light use). That should suffice for the normal small TV or phone charger. And you could even slowly charge your car range. And in the sun it would shadow the vehicle a bit, making the temperature inside better.

Also it would make you less dependend on charging stations on route (you could probably get 50km out of this system in the summer sun before you run dry from a full charge) and charge you up while you camp.

A 1500W space heater is more or less the maximum wattage you can pull from an American style wall outlet. Using that maximum wattage, overnight - an EV might gain 30 miles of range. I tested this for a couple of weeks with a Leaf only charging via the 120V wall outlet in my garage. It was plenty of range for my needs.

However 100W would not make an appreciable difference to an EV.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 02:28:45 PM by Just Joe »

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #962 on: August 25, 2021, 04:42:47 PM »
This may really be disgusting to you guys.  I think one of those little Honda generators could be used to do some charging of your truck battery at night.  Sure you are against it because of the environmental principles, but if you are only hauling stuff with the electric truck a couple times a year, I wouldn't feel real guilty. 

They've got a 30 amp outlet and should be a lot lighter than the battery solar panel trailer.

BDWW

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #963 on: August 25, 2021, 05:05:31 PM »
With high efficiency solar panels, you could conceivably get about 500W on the roof of a car.  In most of the US you get 4-5 solar hours a day.  So, ~2.5Kwh a day optimally, that's about 10 miles in model Y/3.  We don't know F150 efficiency number yet, but it's likely half that initially, and half again when towing. Then again potentially larger solar area if you put a topper or something on.  Bottom line, solar on an F150 MIGHT get you 5 miles a day.

The generator idea for occasional use is worth thinking about. The downsides being that, A) you'd need a large one to deliver power on a short trip, and B) you'd have to run it continuously to get a good charge. And C) generators run harder the bigger the load, so you might end up needing quite a bit of gas.

A common model is Honda's E2200, technically 2200 watts, but likely would only get 1500w of charging via one leg of 120v.
So that's 1.5KWH an hour.  With the F150s estimated 200KWH battery, you're looking at 66 hours for half a "tank".  66/4hrs a gallon, puts you at 16.5 gallons of gas. 

Obviously very back of the napkin, but running a small generator for 66 hrs over the course of a long weekend is doable, but not ideal.

A bigger 7000w generator, would output 240v and charge a lot faster but still consume a significant amount of gas. Say 6.5Kwh an hour, 100/6.5 ~ 15 hours.  ~.75 gallon per hour ~= 12 gallons of gas for half a tank

edit: Not to mention the up front cost of $800-$5000 depending on how big/efficient/loud of a generator you want to run.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 05:11:43 PM by BDWW »

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #964 on: August 25, 2021, 05:30:37 PM »
This may really be disgusting to you guys.  I think one of those little Honda generators could be used to do some charging of your truck battery at night.  Sure you are against it because of the environmental principles, but if you are only hauling stuff with the electric truck a couple times a year, I wouldn't feel real guilty. 

They've got a 30 amp outlet and should be a lot lighter than the battery solar panel trailer.

It’s not unlike the principle behind a PHEV - an EV with an onboard gas-powered ‘generator’ to recharge the battery pack. They can be incredibly versatile for a lot of people.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #965 on: August 25, 2021, 05:53:40 PM »
It’s not unlike the principle behind a PHEV - an EV with an onboard gas-powered ‘generator’ to recharge the battery pack. They can be incredibly versatile for a lot of people.

In most PHEVs the internal combustion engine can send power to the wheels directly, in addition to acting as a generator. But your point still stands. They are versatile, require fewer battery cells, and can function without fast charging infrastructure. They are more complex than both gas cars and pure EVs, but for many people they can be a perfect gateway drug to the electric mobility.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #966 on: August 25, 2021, 09:14:45 PM »
With high efficiency solar panels, you could conceivably get about 500W on the roof of a car.  In most of the US you get 4-5 solar hours a day.  So, ~2.5Kwh a day optimally, that's about 10 miles in model Y/3.  We don't know F150 efficiency number yet, but it's likely half that initially, and half again when towing. Then again potentially larger solar area if you put a topper or something on.  Bottom line, solar on an F150 MIGHT get you 5 miles a day.

The generator idea for occasional use is worth thinking about. The downsides being that, A) you'd need a large one to deliver power on a short trip, and B) you'd have to run it continuously to get a good charge. And C) generators run harder the bigger the load, so you might end up needing quite a bit of gas.

A common model is Honda's E2200, technically 2200 watts, but likely would only get 1500w of charging via one leg of 120v.
So that's 1.5KWH an hour.  With the F150s estimated 200KWH battery, you're looking at 66 hours for half a "tank".  66/4hrs a gallon, puts you at 16.5 gallons of gas. 

Obviously very back of the napkin, but running a small generator for 66 hrs over the course of a long weekend is doable, but not ideal.

A bigger 7000w generator, would output 240v and charge a lot faster but still consume a significant amount of gas. Say 6.5Kwh an hour, 100/6.5 ~ 15 hours.  ~.75 gallon per hour ~= 12 gallons of gas for half a tank

edit: Not to mention the up front cost of $800-$5000 depending on how big/efficient/loud of a generator you want to run.

That might be very useful in a weather event when charging is difficult or impossible. I could see a ladder rack with solar panels covering the entire footprint of the truck. ;)

BDWW

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #967 on: August 26, 2021, 12:46:09 AM »
Yeah, in your typical zombie-apocalypse type scenario, an electric truck with solar panels might be the way to go.  If you weren't concerned about aesthetics/aerodynamics, you could maybe get a 2000W+ array on some sort of roof rack.  That might be good for 20 miles a day as you avoid the zombies and roving mad max type people.

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #968 on: August 26, 2021, 02:42:50 AM »
Shade really kills solar generation -- I have 13.2 kW on my house/garage and can do ~1.7 mWh in a good month, but less than half of that in off-peak seasons (less sun / worse angle). 

If you somehow managed to sustain 100 watts over an 8 hour period on a small mobile array and you were getting Model 3 efficiency, that'd provide 3-4 miles of additional range.
That depends a lot on the system. You can make it so that part shadowing does not affect the result as much (but it's more expensive and so nearly never done for free land or roof systems which you put away from trees).

And of course when I said "could" I imagined a sunny highway ;) Even a small camper should have a roof for 2-3kW. Your model 3 would get ~100 miles out of it according to your numbers, so 50km for a camper sounds equivalent to me.


Quote
It’s not unlike the principle behind a PHEV - an EV with an onboard gas-powered ‘generator’ to recharge the battery pack. They can be incredibly versatile for a lot of people.
I always thought that would be the main route of car electrification. The majority of people don't have an outlet near their car after all, and putting up charging stations in public is expensive. Having what is basically a plug-in hybrid with a charger onboard sounded like the best bet for the time between gas and full electric in 30 years.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #969 on: August 26, 2021, 03:00:56 AM »
Solar panel roofs have already been done on a handful of hybrids and EVs. They're not good for much really. Maybe enough to run the HVAC to keep the vehicle more temperate while it's parked. But you could also just try to park in the shade and get similar temp benefits.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2019/08/26/hyundai-put-a-solar-panel-on-an-electric-car-but-its-false-green/?sh=26db6dc41537

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #970 on: August 26, 2021, 05:49:16 AM »
Quote from: LennStar
Quote
It’s not unlike the principle behind a PHEV - an EV with an onboard gas-powered ‘generator’ to recharge the battery pack. They can be incredibly versatile for a lot of people.
I always thought that would be the main route of car electrification. The majority of people don't have an outlet near their car after all, and putting up charging stations in public is expensive. Having what is basically a plug-in hybrid with a charger onboard sounded like the best bet for the time between gas and full electric in 30 years.

If we follow the assumption, that people don't have power outlets near their car, then a PHEV is useless compared to a hybrid.

Thankfully 99.9% of car owners also have electricity.

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #971 on: August 26, 2021, 06:06:28 AM »
Quote from: LennStar
Quote
It’s not unlike the principle behind a PHEV - an EV with an onboard gas-powered ‘generator’ to recharge the battery pack. They can be incredibly versatile for a lot of people.
I always thought that would be the main route of car electrification. The majority of people don't have an outlet near their car after all, and putting up charging stations in public is expensive. Having what is basically a plug-in hybrid with a charger onboard sounded like the best bet for the time between gas and full electric in 30 years.

If we follow the assumption, that people don't have power outlets near their car, then a PHEV is useless compared to a hybrid.

Thankfully 99.9% of car owners also have electricity.
In the street I lived most of my live there were exatly 0 from at least a hundred car owners that could put electricity into their car from their home.
That is a strictly single family home with garage house-type of thing.

The plugin-ins with range extender (and possibly solar roof to charge one cycle over the day) would have been charged at work or when shopping. And in the US that maybe even works for most people. But in less car-centric areas of the world (aka everywhere outside North America) people don't drive their car to get a few bananas.

Chris22

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #972 on: August 26, 2021, 07:46:15 AM »
I’ve only charged my PHEV 2x while out in the wild, and that was mostly due to the novelty of it plus the chargers being choice parking spaces :)

My Jeep charges slowly, but I do start almost every day with a 100% charge, giving me ~20-25 miles which generally gives way more range than I need most days to do this gs like the school drop off/pick up and run to the grocery store.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #973 on: August 26, 2021, 09:16:01 AM »
Shade really kills solar generation -- I have 13.2 kW on my house/garage and can do ~1.7 mWh in a good month, but less than half of that in off-peak seasons (less sun / worse angle). 

If you somehow managed to sustain 100 watts over an 8 hour period on a small mobile array and you were getting Model 3 efficiency, that'd provide 3-4 miles of additional range.
That depends a lot on the system. You can make it so that part shadowing does not affect the result as much (but it's more expensive and so nearly never done for free land or roof systems which you put away from trees).

And of course when I said "could" I imagined a sunny highway ;) Even a small camper should have a roof for 2-3kW. Your model 3 would get ~100 miles out of it according to your numbers, so 50km for a camper sounds equivalent to me.


Quote
It’s not unlike the principle behind a PHEV - an EV with an onboard gas-powered ‘generator’ to recharge the battery pack. They can be incredibly versatile for a lot of people.
I always thought that would be the main route of car electrification. The majority of people don't have an outlet near their car after all, and putting up charging stations in public is expensive. Having what is basically a plug-in hybrid with a charger onboard sounded like the best bet for the time between gas and full electric in 30 years.

A 200w Renogy panel is just over 2ft x 5ft.  Remember that campers have AC units, vent fans/etc on the roof - let's look at a 16ft like this guy: Jayco Feather Micro (roof picture from here, equipped with the solar power package (one 190w panel):





To fit 2-3 kW on that roof you'd need room for 9-15 more panels...

StashingAway

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #974 on: August 26, 2021, 09:30:50 AM »

To fit 2-3 kW on that roof you'd need room for 9-15 more panels...

Yes yes yes!!! Solar power is an overvalued energy resource in the modern green movement. It's ubiquitous, but not highly concentrated. People put up 1kw rigs on their campers just to power their AC... it just doesn't make sense to try to power a CAR with it. Especially when it's cloudy out or can't be positioned to face the sun. You can easily lose 30% or more of the power just by having flat panels rather than tilted ones (and no one is tilting panels on a moving rig).

The MMM answer, as noted above, is to ditch the camper. Bring some tents if you want to camp, or stay in an airBNB if you want to travel. Or do a combo of the two for long trips. Stop driving an entire house around (this coming from someone who lived in a van for awhile). Figure out how to trick the hedonistic systems at play. 3-4 nights of camping followed by a shower at a cozy airBNB can be more pleasurable than setting up shop in a paved over established campground accompanied by cable TV and loud drunk neighbors.

Then you don't have to worry about the towing capacity of a Model Y or range reduction, maintaining a crappily built tiny house that is used 6 weekends out of the year, or safety of all of the above.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 09:38:17 AM by StashingAway »

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #975 on: August 26, 2021, 10:11:34 AM »
The MMM answer, as noted above, is to ditch the camper .... Stop driving an entire house around

This, times 10. We have entire towns burned down or washed away due to climate change. Yet we keep insisting that only solutions that allow us to do exactly what we are doing now how we are doing now are acceptable.

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #976 on: August 26, 2021, 10:42:45 AM »
The MMM answer, as noted above, is to ditch the camper .... Stop driving an entire house around

This, times 10. We have entire towns burned down or washed away due to climate change. Yet we keep insisting that only solutions that allow us to do exactly what we are doing now how we are doing now are acceptable.
Haha true, but I still wonder why nobody is selling those things. (btw. the campers here don't have an AC unit on top. And you could easily use the windows (which are generally not see through anyway) as panel place too.

BDWW

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #977 on: August 26, 2021, 11:47:38 AM »
To fit 2-3 kW on that roof you'd need room for 9-15 more panels...

You know, anti-EV folks are often accused of using ridiculous examples and what-ifs to claim EVs are impractical.

Showing possibly the most cluttered and unoptimized camper roof to argue against a large solar array is very similar. There's plenty to suggest that 2-3kw isn't enough to meaningfully charge an EV without disingenuous nonsense. To be clear it would be fairly trivial to get 2kw on a camper that size, just because it currently isn't done, doesn't mean it's at all unfeasible.


JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #978 on: August 26, 2021, 12:10:05 PM »
To fit 2-3 kW on that roof you'd need room for 9-15 more panels...

You know, anti-EV folks are often accused of using ridiculous examples and what-ifs to claim EVs are impractical.

Showing possibly the most cluttered and unoptimized camper roof to argue against a large solar array is very similar. There's plenty to suggest that 2-3kw isn't enough to meaningfully charge an EV without disingenuous nonsense. To be clear it would be fairly trivial to get 2kw on a camper that size, just because it currently isn't done, doesn't mean it's at all unfeasible.

If you're talking about a factory-produced system with walkable solar panels and integrated roof components, that's a different story - but my impression from this conversation was "why don't people just put 2-3 kW solar arrays on small campers."

I picked a camper at random, and a medium sized one at that.  The initial claim was 2-3 kW on a small camper. I made a legitimate effort based on a random (common) trailer. If you're going to accuse me of "disingenuous nonsense," at least show your work instead of making lazy accusations that you can't be bothered to back up with any actual effort.

This is 1350 watts of solar on a trailer. You're talking about more than that on a trailer half the size. If your trailer is a box with nothing on the roof, no need for roof access, and you literally cover it 100% with solar panels, then sure -- you could get close or maybe even get 2 kW, depending on your definition of "small trailer." In the real world, with the trailers that exist today? Not so much.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 12:14:09 PM by JLee »

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #979 on: August 26, 2021, 01:21:23 PM »
To fit 2-3 kW on that roof you'd need room for 9-15 more panels...

You know, anti-EV folks are often accused of using ridiculous examples and what-ifs to claim EVs are impractical.

Showing possibly the most cluttered and unoptimized camper roof to argue against a large solar array is very similar. There's plenty to suggest that 2-3kw isn't enough to meaningfully charge an EV without disingenuous nonsense. To be clear it would be fairly trivial to get 2kw on a camper that size, just because it currently isn't done, doesn't mean it's at all unfeasible.

If you're talking about a factory-produced system with walkable solar panels and integrated roof components, that's a different story - but my impression from this conversation was "why don't people just put 2-3 kW solar arrays on small campers."

I picked a camper at random, and a medium sized one at that.  The initial claim was 2-3 kW on a small camper. I made a legitimate effort based on a random (common) trailer. If you're going to accuse me of "disingenuous nonsense," at least show your work instead of making lazy accusations that you can't be bothered to back up with any actual effort.

This is 1350 watts of solar on a trailer. You're talking about more than that on a trailer half the size. If your trailer is a box with nothing on the roof, no need for roof access, and you literally cover it 100% with solar panels, then sure -- you could get close or maybe even get 2 kW, depending on your definition of "small trailer." In the real world, with the trailers that exist today? Not so much.

I thought it was quite clear that I meant solar power that is meant and made to be on that roof, not put on later. Not that it would change a lot.

That is what I consider a small one (not the smallest variant in existance, but the smallest common size today): https://img.ricardostatic.ch/t_1000x750/pl/1126526162/1/1/wohnmobil-camper-hymer-mlt-580.jpg and it is likely a popular one (I have no interest in those things so I just took the winner from several tests).
From the technical data: size is 598x222cm - roof is maybe 2m shorter and that could be changed easily if needed. 
I can see only 3 small obstructions. You can probably move them around if you want it.
That should easily give you 6m˛ (or 10m˛ if you use full size as other models do). Per m˛ you can get about 200W. So this would give you 1,2-2kW peak.
I can still not see that my rough calculation is that wrong considering that this calculation is very lowballed on the 1,2 end.

Means on a sunny summer day you can harvest about 15kW. I have no idea how much range that means, but it is certainly enough for onboard electronics, which should be important for people valuing independence and living away from the grid. 

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #980 on: August 26, 2021, 02:15:19 PM »
Means on a sunny summer day you can harvest about 15kW. I have no idea how much range that means, but it is certainly enough for onboard electronics, which should be important for people valuing independence and living away from the grid.

In a small EV, without a trailer, you can get 4 miles/6 km per kWh. So, 15 kWh = 60 miles/90 km. Not too shabby.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #981 on: August 26, 2021, 02:18:44 PM »
I haven't seen any discussion on the economic practicality of covering the roof of an RV/vehicle with PVs (though it's possible I overlooked it).  Depending on efficiency, 60-cell PVs cost anywhere from around $400/panel (300w) to $700 the more efficient designs. If you can figure out how to squeeze 2k onto the roof (which depends greatly on the size of the roof) that's $2600 - $4000k depending on cell type. That doesn't include microinverters/optimizers, mounts or wiring. Perhaps $5k on my back-of-the-envelope calculation, unless you were taking about flush-mount or roof-integrated, which would almost certainly be a lot more.

Is that worth getting 30-50km extra per day (assuming the battery pack isn't already full)?  Seems like a ludicrously expensive option to me, but it might appeal to a very niche set of circumstances.  ::shrug::

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #982 on: August 26, 2021, 02:37:16 PM »
It is expensive an impractical to have solar on an EV itself. The biggest drawback in my mind is that without grid connection, there's no way to put excess energy to any good use. If you started with a full battery, and let the car sit in the sun all day, all the energy is wasted - but the cost of panels is still the same.

The math for a camper is a bit different. People use solar to camp where there's no grid connection. A small generator is loud, dirty, inefficient, it's power expensive. That's where solar starts to shine (pun intended). Plenty of people do these conversions.

Also, the cost to install solar on a house is around $2.75 per kW. A lot of it is soft cost - cost of sales, permits, design for each unique roof, etc. None of it applies to a factory-assembled car or trailer. But they may have their own unique costs of which I'm not aware. For campers, it's the batteries. But even with the batteries math is positive for solar if off-grid.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #983 on: August 26, 2021, 02:41:49 PM »
To fit 2-3 kW on that roof you'd need room for 9-15 more panels...

You know, anti-EV folks are often accused of using ridiculous examples and what-ifs to claim EVs are impractical.

Showing possibly the most cluttered and unoptimized camper roof to argue against a large solar array is very similar. There's plenty to suggest that 2-3kw isn't enough to meaningfully charge an EV without disingenuous nonsense. To be clear it would be fairly trivial to get 2kw on a camper that size, just because it currently isn't done, doesn't mean it's at all unfeasible.

If you're talking about a factory-produced system with walkable solar panels and integrated roof components, that's a different story - but my impression from this conversation was "why don't people just put 2-3 kW solar arrays on small campers."

I picked a camper at random, and a medium sized one at that.  The initial claim was 2-3 kW on a small camper. I made a legitimate effort based on a random (common) trailer. If you're going to accuse me of "disingenuous nonsense," at least show your work instead of making lazy accusations that you can't be bothered to back up with any actual effort.

This is 1350 watts of solar on a trailer. You're talking about more than that on a trailer half the size. If your trailer is a box with nothing on the roof, no need for roof access, and you literally cover it 100% with solar panels, then sure -- you could get close or maybe even get 2 kW, depending on your definition of "small trailer." In the real world, with the trailers that exist today? Not so much.

I thought it was quite clear that I meant solar power that is meant and made to be on that roof, not put on later. Not that it would change a lot.

That is what I consider a small one (not the smallest variant in existance, but the smallest common size today): https://img.ricardostatic.ch/t_1000x750/pl/1126526162/1/1/wohnmobil-camper-hymer-mlt-580.jpg and it is likely a popular one (I have no interest in those things so I just took the winner from several tests).
From the technical data: size is 598x222cm - roof is maybe 2m shorter and that could be changed easily if needed. 
I can see only 3 small obstructions. You can probably move them around if you want it.
That should easily give you 6m˛ (or 10m˛ if you use full size as other models do). Per m˛ you can get about 200W. So this would give you 1,2-2kW peak.
I can still not see that my rough calculation is that wrong considering that this calculation is very lowballed on the 1,2 end.

Means on a sunny summer day you can harvest about 15kW. I have no idea how much range that means, but it is certainly enough for onboard electronics, which should be important for people valuing independence and living away from the grid.

I see - we are talking about different things.  These are what I think about in the context of "small trailer:"

https://camperreport.com/7-awesome-small-travel-trailers-under-3000-pounds/
https://www.thespruce.com/glamping-worthy-camping-trailers-3017221

I used a medium trailer for my example to err on the side of more space.

I'd pull statistics from my truck's solar if it wasn't on the other side of the country, but there's no way you're going to get 7+ hours of 100% panel output on a flat roof. 

My 13.2 kW home array is mostly south facing and on an average day in July, I produced 51.3 kWh:



Translated, that's 3.89 kWh / day per 1 kW of solar array, with high end (Panasonic) panels angled towards the sun.

It is expensive an impractical to have solar on an EV itself. The biggest drawback in my mind is that without grid connection, there's no way to put excess energy to any good use. If you started with a full battery, and let the car sit in the sun all day, all the energy is wasted - but the cost of panels is still the same.

The math for a camper is a bit different. People use solar to camp where there's no grid connection. A small generator is loud, dirty, inefficient, it's power expensive. That's where solar starts to shine (pun intended). Plenty of people do these conversions.

Also, the cost to install solar on a house is around $2.75 per kW. A lot of it is soft cost - cost of sales, permits, design for each unique roof, etc. None of it applies to a factory-assembled car or trailer. But they may have their own unique costs of which I'm not aware. For campers, it's the batteries. But even with the batteries math is positive for solar if off-grid.

Yeah, the power demands to run LED lighting, efficient fridges/etc are vastly lower than the power requirements for an EV.  I have 100w of solar and a dual battery setup on my offroad/camping vehicle. IMO it's absolutely worth doing, but not for the purposes of running a car off it.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #984 on: August 26, 2021, 10:01:00 PM »
It is expensive an impractical to have solar on an EV itself. The biggest drawback in my mind is that without grid connection, there's no way to put excess energy to any good use. If you started with a full battery, and let the car sit in the sun all day, all the energy is wasted - but the cost of panels is still the same.

The math for a camper is a bit different. People use solar to camp where there's no grid connection. A small generator is loud, dirty, inefficient, it's power expensive. That's where solar starts to shine (pun intended). Plenty of people do these conversions.

Also, the cost to install solar on a house is around $2.75 per kW. A lot of it is soft cost - cost of sales, permits, design for each unique roof, etc. None of it applies to a factory-assembled car or trailer. But they may have their own unique costs of which I'm not aware. For campers, it's the batteries. But even with the batteries math is positive for solar if off-grid.

I used to use a 2 kW Honda generator at work.  It wasn't very loud and is a small engine so wasn't too dirty.  The ones I used started with one pull.

I used to work with utility generators.  They were like 98 percent efficient.  So, I figure a little Honda has a minimum of 85 percent efficiency from the engine.

https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu3000is

The world isn't perfect.  If you are only needing it a few times a year and worry about the carbon footprint, maybe it could be made up elsewhere.  It seems a lot easier to haul a small generator than a special trailer.

Someday, I too will own an electric vehicle and will better understand.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #985 on: August 27, 2021, 03:48:33 AM »

I used to use a 2 kW Honda generator at work.  It wasn't very loud and is a small engine so wasn't too dirty.  The ones I used started with one pull.

I used to work with utility generators.  They were like 98 percent efficient.  So, I figure a little Honda has a minimum of 85 percent efficiency from the engine.

https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eu3000is

The world isn't perfect.  If you are only needing it a few times a year and worry about the carbon footprint, maybe it could be made up elsewhere.  It seems a lot easier to haul a small generator than a special trailer.

Someday, I too will own an electric vehicle and will better understand.

There is no way an utility generator can convert 98% of the energy (=fuel) consumed to electric energy or a small Honda 85% for that matter. In a big-ass power plant the very best achieve bit over 60% efficiency.

A rotary electric generator in itself is very efficient, it can generally convert 98-99% of kinetic energy into electric energy. However, if such a generator is fueled by gas or any other fossile fuel the system's efficiency is way, way lower. For power generation the most efficient is hydro which is somewhere in the 90s.

A car engine is larger and has a much easier job (converting fuel to mechanical enery) and a typical engine has efficiency of maybe 30%, quite a bit higher for big diesel engines in utility vehicles and at its highest in massive diesel engines used to power large ships.

Hauling a small generator to charge an EV is not a good idea.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 04:02:31 AM by habanero »

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #986 on: August 27, 2021, 04:17:48 AM »
I see - we are talking about different things.  These are what I think about in the context of "small trailer:"

https://camperreport.com/7-awesome-small-travel-trailers-under-3000-pounds/
https://www.thespruce.com/glamping-worthy-camping-trailers-3017221

I always talked about camper, not trailer. Not least because since everything gets electrified now, that looks like the logical combination - you are off grid (or it's at least a viable possibility) for several days in a row, you have a big mostly flat roof, you run on batteries - that sounds like the perfect combination if done at production time.
But afaik there aren't even prototypes for that. So why? is what keeps me awake in the night ;)

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #987 on: August 27, 2021, 06:57:28 AM »
I used to use a 2 kW Honda generator at work.  It wasn't very loud and is a small engine so wasn't too dirty.

It may not look dirty, but it is dirty. There's no catalytic converter, they use carburetors, and that Carbon Monoxide Detection System isn't there for nothing. It's way behind what's standard in car engines today, in terms of both efficiency and pollution. And no combustion engine is anywhere near 90% of efficiency.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #988 on: August 27, 2021, 07:24:43 AM »
I see - we are talking about different things.  These are what I think about in the context of "small trailer:"

https://camperreport.com/7-awesome-small-travel-trailers-under-3000-pounds/
https://www.thespruce.com/glamping-worthy-camping-trailers-3017221

I always talked about camper, not trailer. Not least because since everything gets electrified now, that looks like the logical combination - you are off grid (or it's at least a viable possibility) for several days in a row, you have a big mostly flat roof, you run on batteries - that sounds like the perfect combination if done at production time.
But afaik there aren't even prototypes for that. So why? is what keeps me awake in the night ;)

In my experience (at least in the areas of the US I have lived) the term “camper” most often means trailer.

As far as why, probably due to cost - gas is cheap, solar/batteries are expensive.

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #989 on: August 27, 2021, 08:37:16 AM »
In my experience (at least in the areas of the US I have lived) the term “camper” most often means trailer.

That can very well be the case, a misunderstanding on my side since I am a German never been in the US and have no interest in the camping topic, so my vacabulary isn't exactly 5-star level ;)

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #990 on: August 27, 2021, 08:38:45 AM »
In my experience (at least in the areas of the US I have lived) the term “camper” most often means trailer.

That can very well be the case, a misunderstanding on my side since I am a German never been in the US and have no interest in the camping topic, so my vacabulary isn't exactly 5-star level ;)

Hey at least we figured out the source of the confusion!

I would love to set up a small camping trailer with a solar/battery array sufficient for multiple days without access to power - if I could find a place with a cell signal (or when StarLink is mobile-capable), it'd be lovely to work remotely from the top of a mountain somewhere..

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #991 on: August 27, 2021, 08:41:02 AM »
From my rural PA background, "camper" always meant those camper setups you put in a pickup truck bed! Or a pop-up camper, which is a very small trailer.

Any larger all-in-one is called a recreational vehicle (RV), though the small ones may be called camper vans.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #992 on: August 27, 2021, 08:54:08 AM »
You guys were right overall.  The internal combustion Carnot cycle is not that efficient.  I was only considering the generator itself.  However, if I were parked for the night running my little generator in a campground to charge my truck.  I figured if I looked around i would probably see a lot of campfires.  These are fires just for fun and to roast marshmallows and such.  MY little generator is not benign, but it sure doesn't seem like an evil poison spewing monster.

I would also probably see gigantic motor homes that may almost flip the normal miles per gallon to gallons per mile.  There would be trailers pulled by big gas guzzling trucks.  Once again, I would turn to my little generator chugging away charging the truck batteries overnight.  I think I would be entitled to smile.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #993 on: August 27, 2021, 09:00:02 AM »
You guys were right overall.  The internal combustion Carnot cycle is not that efficient.  I was only considering the generator itself.  However, if I were parked for the night running my little generator in a campground to charge my truck.  I figured if I looked around i would probably see a lot of campfires.  These are fires just for fun and to roast marshmallows and such.  MY little generator is not benign, but it sure doesn't seem like an evil poison spewing monster.

I would also probably see gigantic motor homes that may almost flip the normal miles per gallon to gallons per mile.  There would be trailers pulled by big gas guzzling trucks.  Once again, I would turn to my little generator chugging away charging the truck batteries overnight.  I think I would be entitled to smile.

If you're at a campground, just rent a spot with the big 30-50 amp power hookups (large trailers / RVs are designed to run off external power, so big power outlets are commonly available at campgrounds) and charge off that ;)

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #995 on: August 27, 2021, 11:41:05 AM »
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/08/26/tesla-is-slowly-cutting-into-pharmaceutical-health-insurance-costs/amp/

Interesting side effect that doesn't really get talked about

Here’s another interesting benefit, sorta related. In higher heat/cold, I drop my kids off at school versus walking with them. I can drive my PHEV locked into EV mode, and then rather than turn it off for the 3-5 minutes while walking my kids in and signing them in, I can leave it “idling” in the parking lot which just means the HVAC system is running off of the battery. Plus, since school is about 3/4 mile from my house, I don’t have any cold starts, which are bad for the car and also the worst part for the environment. I’m more comfortable, it’s better for the car, and it’s better for localized emissions. Win/win/win.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #996 on: August 28, 2021, 06:42:16 PM »
I've driven about 2000 miles in my ID.4 and like it. The apple CarPlay is a bit wonky (works better with the USB plugged in) but otherwise no issues. The remote AC start is nice. Also the emergency braking feature already saved me from an accident with a terrible driver on the interstate. Would recommend it for anyone looking for a soccer-parent SUV. The range is as stated, even with the AC running all the time.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #997 on: August 29, 2021, 06:10:00 AM »
I've driven about 2000 miles in my ID.4 and like it. The apple CarPlay is a bit wonky (works better with the USB plugged in) but otherwise no issues. The remote AC start is nice. Also the emergency braking feature already saved me from an accident with a terrible driver on the interstate. Would recommend it for anyone looking for a soccer-parent SUV. The range is as stated, even with the AC running all the time.

I'm waiting for the 3.5t bill to pass hoping they increase tax credits. Currently debating the Id.4 vs the y vs the stang.  Any reason you went with the VW? And did you drive the others

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #998 on: August 29, 2021, 06:22:06 AM »
I've driven about 2000 miles in my ID.4 and like it. The apple CarPlay is a bit wonky (works better with the USB plugged in) but otherwise no issues. The remote AC start is nice. Also the emergency braking feature already saved me from an accident with a terrible driver on the interstate. Would recommend it for anyone looking for a soccer-parent SUV. The range is as stated, even with the AC running all the time.

I'm waiting for the 3.5t bill to pass hoping they increase tax credits. Currently debating the Id.4 vs the y vs the stang.  Any reason you went with the VW? And did you drive the others

My friends have a Tesla Y and another have a Tesla S. Both were fine but I didn’t find any significant differences to justify the extra cost(53k vs 32.5k). The battery platform VW used has been field-tested with their ID.3 model in Europe, so I was reasonably confident that it’s reliable. I felt the mustang was too new to purchase without risk of 1st model regrets.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #999 on: August 29, 2021, 06:50:59 AM »
We didn't end up test-driving the id.4 -- can't find one around here to do that. We got the Mach-E. No regrets so far. We didn't consider the 3 because it is too low (older parents have enough problems with our Honda Fit's height). At that point the Mach-E is competitive with the Y or id.4 in terms of price and, importantly, was available. Picked it up off the dealer lot for MSRP (lots of dealers doing ADM due to supply constraints even though ford has told them not to for MME).

I would have liked to wait a few years and pick something up used, but we need the car now. We would have gotten a used bolt, but the whole fire thing is kinda a turn-off. Yes I'm aware the MME has a LG battery too (ditto id.4).

If VW had brought the id.3 state-side, we likely would have that instead, but apparently we can't have nice things here.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!