Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 537410 times)

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1100 on: September 26, 2021, 08:55:30 PM »
I've also never bought anything that included a warranty I give two Fs about. I've only ever bought cars 10 years old. Same with my boats. I do not and will never understand warranties unless there are design flaws.

This concept of people relying on warranty is  not mustachian in any stretch. And EVs are really simple compared to current cars on the road.

AccidentialMustache

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1101 on: September 27, 2021, 09:27:46 AM »
Ford just recalled north of 17+k EVs in the US that represent 5 months production. https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2021/09/27/ford-mustang-mach-e-recall-windshield-roof-glass-popping-out/5874064001/ -- glass, not battery at least.

I would not expect if you reserve a Lightning now, that you will not get the tax credit unless phase-out is eliminated.

That said if Ford does with the Lightning as with the Mach-E, if you're quick you can probably pick up a dealer demo vehicle when it hits its time/mileage limits for near MSRP. You'll be calling daily at dealership open though.

Weisass

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1102 on: September 27, 2021, 09:30:17 AM »
I certainly hope electric cars are gaining traction. I live in a M/HCOL suburb, and I see an awful lot of them around me, especially fancy Teslas.

As for us, we are joining them, but via inheritance--we are being gifted a used Tesla that once belonged to my FIL, and we can't wait to ditch our gasoline powered minivan. It will be an adjustment, but I am looking forward to finding ways to embody the MMM spirit of treading a bit more lightly on the earth.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1103 on: September 27, 2021, 09:32:29 AM »
My beloved Nissan 2015 Leaf is no more. 

My DD was doing her driving test and was hit by a dude missing the red light in front of the front wheels on the passenger side.  She and the driving tester are bruised but no worse.  Car was spun around 300 degrees and hit on the back side as well.  Air bags deployed.  The front of the frame is displaced more than 12 inches so it now sticks out way past the side mirror on the driver's side.  But that beautiful little car kept her safe. 

(She didn't complete her test so even though they were 3 minutes from being in the office doing the paper work, and the tester was going to pass her, she had to redo her test.  A new tester took her out Saturday morning and she passed again) 

We won't buy another leaf because of the range issues and it is a little squishy in the back seat. We are looking at the Bolt EUV - I am not afraid of the battery issue and man, there is a lot of space in the back seats. 400km range and 6" longer than the bolt cabin. We are a family of four adults. The options are luxurious and most importantly it will hold a wheelbarrow and all the squash I have grown this summer out at my parents' farm.  BUT we can't test drive one.  I can sit in it but I can't take it out on the road until it gets the battery replaced.  I swore up and down I wouldn't buy a new vehicle ever again, but there is just nothing available and if there was - the newer tech/battery and rebates are mighty shiny.
 


pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1104 on: September 27, 2021, 12:09:51 PM »
My beloved Nissan 2015 Leaf is no more. 

My DD was doing her driving test and was hit by a dude missing the red light in front of the front wheels on the passenger side.  She and the driving tester are bruised but no worse.  Car was spun around 300 degrees and hit on the back side as well.  Air bags deployed.  The front of the frame is displaced more than 12 inches so it now sticks out way past the side mirror on the driver's side.  But that beautiful little car kept her safe. 

(She didn't complete her test so even though they were 3 minutes from being in the office doing the paper work, and the tester was going to pass her, she had to redo her test.  A new tester took her out Saturday morning and she passed again) 

We won't buy another leaf because of the range issues and it is a little squishy in the back seat. We are looking at the Bolt EUV - I am not afraid of the battery issue and man, there is a lot of space in the back seats. 400km range and 6" longer than the bolt cabin. We are a family of four adults. The options are luxurious and most importantly it will hold a wheelbarrow and all the squash I have grown this summer out at my parents' farm.  BUT we can't test drive one.  I can sit in it but I can't take it out on the road until it gets the battery replaced.  I swore up and down I wouldn't buy a new vehicle ever again, but there is just nothing available and if there was - the newer tech/battery and rebates are mighty shiny.
 

It probably has a good warranty too for a few years.  Somehow this is non mustache-ian, but your car will still be fixed.

Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1105 on: September 27, 2021, 12:28:04 PM »
Ahh, Arthur Tussik could probably fix that Leaf. I want your battery for my electric tractor.

BicycleB

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1106 on: September 27, 2021, 01:57:39 PM »
My beloved Nissan 2015 Leaf is no more. 

My DD was doing her driving test and was hit by a dude missing the red light in front of the front wheels on the passenger side.  She and the driving tester are bruised but no worse.  Car was spun around 300 degrees and hit on the back side as well.  Air bags deployed.  The front of the frame is displaced more than 12 inches so it now sticks out way past the side mirror on the driver's side.  But that beautiful little car kept her safe. 
 

RIP, Gallant Leaf!

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1107 on: September 27, 2021, 04:20:32 PM »
Did she pass her test?

dandarc

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1108 on: September 27, 2021, 04:29:56 PM »
Did she pass her test?
.
See the parenthesis - she did this past Saturday.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1109 on: September 27, 2021, 06:51:30 PM »
Did she pass her test?
.
See the parenthesis - she did this past Saturday.
Her Dad had to stalk the manager of the drive test place to get her an appointment so soon.

The insurance adjuster offered us $9,100K CAN plus HST.  The only car we can find on auto trader for that price has been in a collision.  They rated our car to be in good condition - We did a full brake job, new 12 volt battery, and rust proofing undercoating after DH removed all the tiny rust spots and touched up all the chips and marks - I think he spent 30 hours on the car getting it all clean this summer.  Other cars are listed at 16K, 14K and 11K but are lower mileage.  DH sent the dude a spreadsheet of all the cars he could find.  If they don't increase their settlement, we are just going to say - you get us a car then and let the claim sit unresolved.  We are borrowing my mom's car so we can wait it out.  DH is hoping for 13K.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1110 on: September 28, 2021, 08:45:06 AM »
Did she pass her test?
.
See the parenthesis - she did this past Saturday.
Her Dad had to stalk the manager of the drive test place to get her an appointment so soon.

The insurance adjuster offered us $9,100K CAN plus HST.  The only car we can find on auto trader for that price has been in a collision.  They rated our car to be in good condition - We did a full brake job, new 12 volt battery, and rust proofing undercoating after DH removed all the tiny rust spots and touched up all the chips and marks - I think he spent 30 hours on the car getting it all clean this summer.  Other cars are listed at 16K, 14K and 11K but are lower mileage.  DH sent the dude a spreadsheet of all the cars he could find.  If they don't increase their settlement, we are just going to say - you get us a car then and let the claim sit unresolved.  We are borrowing my mom's car so we can wait it out.  DH is hoping for 13K.

Just curious - Who holds the cards?  What clout is there to make them increase to a reasonable settlement?  The longer they sit on that money, the more they make from it and the less a given amount is worth.  I used to work for a utility.  They didn't pay vendors until the last minute for the money they made while holding it.  I've never put in an insurance claim other than health insurance so this is educational.  Maybe Ontario has better regulatory bodies for this type of thing.

Frugal Lizard

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1111 on: September 28, 2021, 09:05:28 AM »
Did she pass her test?
.
See the parenthesis - she did this past Saturday.
Her Dad had to stalk the manager of the drive test place to get her an appointment so soon.

The insurance adjuster offered us $9,100K CAN plus HST.  The only car we can find on auto trader for that price has been in a collision.  They rated our car to be in good condition - We did a full brake job, new 12 volt battery, and rust proofing undercoating after DH removed all the tiny rust spots and touched up all the chips and marks - I think he spent 30 hours on the car getting it all clean this summer.  Other cars are listed at 16K, 14K and 11K but are lower mileage.  DH sent the dude a spreadsheet of all the cars he could find.  If they don't increase their settlement, we are just going to say - you get us a car then and let the claim sit unresolved.  We are borrowing my mom's car so we can wait it out.  DH is hoping for 13K.

Just curious - Who holds the cards?  What clout is there to make them increase to a reasonable settlement?  The longer they sit on that money, the more they make from it and the less a given amount is worth.  I used to work for a utility.  They didn't pay vendors until the last minute for the money they made while holding it.  I've never put in an insurance claim other than health insurance so this is educational.  Maybe Ontario has better regulatory bodies for this type of thing. 
They do.  And Ontario is not great for car insurance.  I think that since we are not in a hurry to buy a car and the individual adjusters will not be too comfortable having a long open case file, we may have a tiny bit of leverage.  I haven't had a claim in 26 years and DH has been with the company since he was 16.  I think moving our business would also be a tiny bit of leverage.  But at the end of the day, if that is all they will give us, despite the comparables DH found, then that is all we will be getting.  It really sucks.

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1112 on: September 28, 2021, 02:50:27 PM »
Insurance sucks like that, stick to your guns, or get a lawyer to write a letter if you're in rush.

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1113 on: October 15, 2021, 08:57:34 PM »
FWIW Cybertruck base price is 40k.

FWIW, I can't find a price listed anywhere on Tesla's site for the Cybertruck. I think it's fair to say that Tesla is targeting a base price of $40k...eventually, because that's what they've said in flashy product reveals. But the most recent delay has pushed back the beginning of production until "late 2022" (and that could continue to be pushed back) so I think it's a bit premature to say the base price is $40k. "Might be, at some point" is probably more accurate right now.

https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck/design#battery

Ahhh, there it is. Thanks.

During the original reveal, Musk said the Cybertruck would be available in late 2021, with the base model following by about a year. With the entire time line being pushed back at least 12 months, we're probably talking about late 2023 for the $40k model at this point. If the chip shortage and other supply chain constraints continue, then it gets pushed back even further.

https://insideevs.com/news/540929/tesla-cybertruck-specs-price-removed/

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1114 on: October 16, 2021, 06:40:22 AM »
Random comment:
Yesterday I was sitting in a parking lot making a zoom call and a big-ass diesel truck pulled up next to me and proceeded to sit there with his engine running (this is super common in my area btw).  Within a few minutes i was getting light-headed and had to move to the opposite end of the parking lot.

All of which to say - for me, personally, the transition to an EV fleet can’t come fast enough.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1115 on: October 18, 2021, 11:45:31 AM »
Random comment:
Yesterday I was sitting in a parking lot making a zoom call and a big-ass diesel truck pulled up next to me and proceeded to sit there with his engine running (this is super common in my area btw).  Within a few minutes i was getting light-headed and had to move to the opposite end of the parking lot.

All of which to say - for me, personally, the transition to an EV fleet can’t come fast enough.

I don't have links handy, but the more research is done on PM2.5 pollution, the worse it looks. Switching to electric saves lives, literally.

Abe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1116 on: October 23, 2021, 06:34:42 PM »
Random comment:
Yesterday I was sitting in a parking lot making a zoom call and a big-ass diesel truck pulled up next to me and proceeded to sit there with his engine running (this is super common in my area btw).  Within a few minutes i was getting light-headed and had to move to the opposite end of the parking lot.

All of which to say - for me, personally, the transition to an EV fleet can’t come fast enough.

This happens a lot down here in Houston, as you can imagine. Right now there's an inversion layer over southeast Texas and all the smog is just sitting on us. It's a gross reminder of how polluting some of these vehicles are. Also someone tried to coal-roll me on the highway. Extra gross.

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1117 on: October 24, 2021, 01:38:27 AM »
Random comment:
Yesterday I was sitting in a parking lot making a zoom call and a big-ass diesel truck pulled up next to me and proceeded to sit there with his engine running (this is super common in my area btw).  Within a few minutes i was getting light-headed and had to move to the opposite end of the parking lot.

All of which to say - for me, personally, the transition to an EV fleet can’t come fast enough.

This happens a lot down here in Houston, as you can imagine. Right now there's an inversion layer over southeast Texas and all the smog is just sitting on us. It's a gross reminder of how polluting some of these vehicles are. Also someone tried to coal-roll me on the highway. Extra gross.

Can you explain what this is?

Monocle Money Mouth

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1118 on: October 24, 2021, 03:25:43 AM »
Random comment:
Yesterday I was sitting in a parking lot making a zoom call and a big-ass diesel truck pulled up next to me and proceeded to sit there with his engine running (this is super common in my area btw).  Within a few minutes i was getting light-headed and had to move to the opposite end of the parking lot.

All of which to say - for me, personally, the transition to an EV fleet can’t come fast enough.

This happens a lot down here in Houston, as you can imagine. Right now there's an inversion layer over southeast Texas and all the smog is just sitting on us. It's a gross reminder of how polluting some of these vehicles are. Also someone tried to coal-roll me on the highway. Extra gross.

Can you explain what this is?

Coal rolling is when bubbas in modified diesel pickups dump extra fuel in the combustion chamber. This causes the engine to emit plumes of black smoke from the exhaust. It looks like the exhaust from an old steam locomotive. It can make it hard to see if someone does it in front of you.

nereo

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1119 on: October 24, 2021, 05:26:42 AM »
Huh.  Thanks for the explanation.  How does that impact the engine performance?

Monocle Money Mouth

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1120 on: October 24, 2021, 05:42:35 AM »
Huh.  Thanks for the explanation.  How does that impact the engine performance?

I'm actually not sure. There's probably some gear head on this thread that knows more about diesel engines than I do.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1121 on: October 24, 2021, 07:47:58 AM »
Huh.  Thanks for the explanation.  How does that impact the engine performance?

I'm actually not sure. There's probably some gear head on this thread that knows more about diesel engines than I do.

Not a gear head but did used to own a diesel Jeep.  People actually told me it was good for the Jeep to tromp the accelerator once in a while to clean out all the soot from the exhaust.   And,........yes I did it to tailgaters on multiple occasions.

I still wonder about the diesels.  Batteries are still not as energy dense as diesel fuel.  I wonder if it may be better to manufacture an artificial diesel,i.e. biodiesel for transportation purposes.  Biodiesel can be made as a rather clean fuel.

LennStar

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1122 on: October 24, 2021, 09:40:03 AM »
You can make artificial fuel, no problem, Hitler did it.
But then and now the main problem is that it's several times more expensive. (And I don't think it's better environmentally btw.)

Coal rolling is when bubbas in modified diesel pickups dump extra fuel in the combustion chamber. This causes the engine to emit plumes of black smoke from the exhaust. It looks like the exhaust from an old steam locomotive. It can make it hard to see if someone does it in front of you.
If you did this as a steam engine driver, your supervidor would give you a headache. And the next time the last pay cheque.

Rolling Coal is the epitome of human stupidity. If there are Aliens, they only need to show this to convince everyone to put a "wild animals, do not enter" sign on our solar system.

RWD

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1123 on: October 24, 2021, 10:55:07 AM »
Huh.  Thanks for the explanation.  How does that impact the engine performance?

I'm actually not sure. There's probably some gear head on this thread that knows more about diesel engines than I do.
If a diesel vehicle is rolling coal it means less than optimal power and efficiency. Combustion engines make the most power with an optimal air/fuel ratio. Adding extra fuel just wastes fuel, decreases power, and increases pollution.

Not a gear head but did used to own a diesel Jeep.  People actually told me it was good for the Jeep to tromp the accelerator once in a while to clean out all the soot from the exhaust.   And,........yes I did it to tailgaters on multiple occasions.
How does it make sense to increase the soot coming out of your exhaust to clean it? They either had no idea what they were talking about and/or you misunderstood. Soot build-up can be a problem in diesel engines but not in the exhaust, in the engine itself. And occasional hard acceleration is not a solution to this. To mitigate soot build-up you need to change your oil regularly and maintain a properly operating engine (i.e. not rolling coal).

There is a tangential carbon build-up issue in direct injection engines that can be worse if you baby the car all the time. But the typical solution for this is to get the heads up to full temperature roughly once per oil change (e.g. drive on the highway at 3-4k rpm for 30 minutes). An occasional hard acceleration probably won't do much for this issue either. Though there is precedent for this, see Italian tuneup which was a legitimate way to burn off carbon deposits on old cars (~1950s). No longer applicable on modern vehicles.

I still wonder about the diesels.  Batteries are still not as energy dense as diesel fuel.  I wonder if it may be better to manufacture an artificial diesel,i.e. biodiesel for transportation purposes.  Biodiesel can be made as a rather clean fuel.
Biodiesel still pollutes ~20% as much as regular diesel. It's not a good long term solution.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1124 on: October 24, 2021, 07:06:40 PM »
I'm actually not sure. There's probably some gear head on this thread that knows more about diesel engines than I do.

I like my diesels too...

And believe me, the "other 99% of truck owners" hate the coal rollers too.  They're destroying their engines for the sake of making some idiotic point and drawing an awful lot of very unwelcome attention to diesel trucks that have largely been left alone...

The first thing to point out is that there's a difference between "rolling coal" and the moderate haze that a lot of diesels do under acceleration (either if you're not gentle with the throttle, or just when an older engine is making good power).  If it's a brownish haze, that's just what some older engines do, and if it rapidly clears up substantially, the fuel flow just outran the turbo spooling up.  Plenty of older engines had mechanical fuel controls and would just dump fuel in if you didn't feed throttle in gently.  Even the late 90s/early 2000s electronic systems were prone to this.  I can get my engine to put out a decent haze if I'm not gentle with the throttle.  I try not to, but sometimes if you're heavy with a trailer, and turning onto a high speed road, there's just no real other option than to put your boot in it and let the engine sort it out as boost comes up (I have some leaking up-pipes to the turbo and can't really get past 20psi, would like to change a few things out at some point and get a couple more pounds when pulling hard).

"Rolling coal" is the sort of jet black column of smoke that hazes out the area, and that's just a deliberate dumping of fuel into the cylinders.  Diesel is an oil, but it's really not a good lubricating oil, so it ends up washing down the cylinder walls (the engine oil remains up in the hatching on the cylinder wall to lubricate the rings on the next upstroke, and the diesel washes this out so it tends to wear the rings and cylinder really badly).  A diesel is a lean burn engine - they run with the air supply "wide open" and control power by fuel delivery.  As you head towards maximum power output, you start approaching the stoichiometric mixture, but on most diesels, you're limited before that point by exhaust gas temperature.  At least if you care about your engine and turbo.  As you continue adding fuel, you end up on the rich side, and there's no good reason to run a diesel over there unless you're doing something like a tractor pull, where you want every bit of air you can cram into the engine burned, and need to cool combustion with excess fuel.  The result is a column of black smoke, and tractor pull engines running up there are not exactly long lived... they're closer to a drag engine that's rebuilt constantly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57zTeSoOLA0 if you're not familiar.

As far as I can tell, it started from a "Engines that make lots of power blow black smoke, therefore if I make my engine blow black smoke, it's making a lot of power" sort of "correlation does not equal causation" logical flaw.  You can make most diesels belch black smoke by covering most of the air filter with a grocery bag or otherwise massively restricting the air intake.  Doesn't mean they're making power.

If they're actually putting out a column of black smoke, and not just some brown haze, get the license plate, and see if you can find your local emissions "polluting vehicle reporting" contact.  It's not hard to get such a truck back into an emissions compliant form, but it's annoying, and hopefully after a few times people will stop bothering.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1125 on: October 25, 2021, 06:45:28 AM »
Huh.  Thanks for the explanation.  How does that impact the engine performance?

The basics have already been covered, but I'll give it a go as well. Diesels used to have their fuel mechanically injected into the combustion chamber. So, the amount of fuel and the timing of the fuel's injection into the combustion chamber were driven by cam profile and directly related to engine speed and the amount of fuel that the injectors could spray. Engines with forced induction will need lots of fuel to support the added air at peak demand, but when your fueling is pretty fixed this means that there are some situations of less than peak load where there is more fuel being injected than necessary. That fuel turns into hydrocarbons and soot/particulates. For modified diesels with mechanical fuel injection, seeing raw fuel (black soot) out of the exhaust was an indicator that it was likely making more power, so people assumed that "smoke = power".

Now, diesels are electronically injected under super high pressures. The amount and timing of the fuel injection is precisely controlled and directly impacts power, fuel economy, and emissions. The OEMs are constantly tweaking the balance between those 3 aspects of the engines based on it's intended function. There's no reason for a modern, electronically injected diesel to be running so rich that black smoke comes from the exhaust, but idiots still think that "smoke = power".

Getting a modern diesel (anything 2008 or newer in the US) to "roll coal" requires illegal modifications. It's gotten out of hand enough that the EPA has recently begun to actually enforce the laws against this by enacting heavy fines on manufacturers that sell products to aid these fools, as well as shops that promote or install the hardware/software modifications.

As for direct results on the engine when "rolling coal", it depends a lot on the extent of the modifications that have been done. The extra fuel can be used for more power if done properly, but then you wouldn't be seeing the smoke. Adding more fuel decreases combustion temps which can actually drop NOx emissions from the combustion chamber, but it obviously increases hydrocarbons and particulates to unacceptable levels. In factory form, modern diesels have good enough pollution controls downstream from the combustion chamber that they can run dirtier combustion mixes than older diesels before they were required to meet emissions regulations. This gives us trucks that can tow 30k lbs with a warranty and similar fuel economy to the older diesels. The downside is that if those downstream components are removed or made less effective you've got a super polluter more or less. So, having removed and/or overriden these pollution controls alone would drastically increase the emissions of a modern diesel compared to a pre-emissions diesel. When you start adding a bunch of extra fuel, or playing with fuel injection timing in the software that makes it even worse. These people are highly visible thanks to the "rolling coal" (which makes all automotive enthusiasts look bad) and they're polluting heavily in other ways at the same time. Hence the EPA's recent and continuing crackdowns, increased motivation for the push to EVs from legislators, and a shrinking automotive aftermarket (at least for things that can alter tailpipe emissions).

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1126 on: October 25, 2021, 09:59:17 AM »
thanks all for the very detailed info on diesel engines and 'roll coal". 

Having only heard the term in passing I thought it had something to do with burning/mining more coal.  I'm guessing it's more tied to the black color of the exhaust then?

after all that's been said it seems beyond stupid - people doing things against their own interest simply because it pisses other people off.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1127 on: October 25, 2021, 10:00:36 AM »
after all that's been said it seems beyond stupid - people doing things against their own interest simply because it pisses other people off.

Should be a good example of why trusting people to do the right thing is doomed to fail on environmental issues though.  :P

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1128 on: October 25, 2021, 10:10:20 AM »
thanks all for the very detailed info on diesel engines and 'roll coal". 

Having only heard the term in passing I thought it had something to do with burning/mining more coal.  I'm guessing it's more tied to the black color of the exhaust then?

after all that's been said it seems beyond stupid - people doing things against their own interest simply because it pisses other people off.

Sad to say but if I still had the diesel, I'd blast the tailgaters again.  I guess there is evil in us all.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1129 on: October 25, 2021, 10:54:12 AM »
Trillion dollar market cap for Tesla today.

I think F, GM, TM together is something less than $350B

I think electric cars are finally becoming popular.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1130 on: October 25, 2021, 10:59:34 AM »
Trillion dollar market cap for Tesla today.

I think F, GM, TM together is something less than $350B

I think electric cars are finally becoming popular.

TSLAs value is more in its FSD than its ability to produce cars IMO.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1131 on: October 25, 2021, 11:03:04 AM »
thanks all for the very detailed info on diesel engines and 'roll coal". 

Having only heard the term in passing I thought it had something to do with burning/mining more coal.  I'm guessing it's more tied to the black color of the exhaust then?

after all that's been said it seems beyond stupid - people doing things against their own interest simply because it pisses other people off.

Sad to say but if I still had the diesel, I'd blast the tailgaters again.  I guess there is evil in us all.

Why not just let your foot off the accelerator, and let them pass you?  You get rid of the person tailgating, there's no environmental damage, and you reduce the risk of an accident.

Not exactly evil, but it seems like what you're indicating as a preference is low reward/high risk and motivated by emotion rather than good decision making.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1132 on: October 25, 2021, 11:15:22 AM »
thanks all for the very detailed info on diesel engines and 'roll coal". 

Having only heard the term in passing I thought it had something to do with burning/mining more coal.  I'm guessing it's more tied to the black color of the exhaust then?

after all that's been said it seems beyond stupid - people doing things against their own interest simply because it pisses other people off.

Sad to say but if I still had the diesel, I'd blast the tailgaters again.  I guess there is evil in us all.

Why not just let your foot off the accelerator, and let them pass you?  You get rid of the person tailgating, there's no environmental damage, and you reduce the risk of an accident.

Not exactly evil, but it seems like what you're indicating as a preference is low reward/high risk and motivated by emotion rather than good decision making.

many moons ago, like more than a decade ago, i had diesel trucks, and on occasion i would roll coal. looking back on it, it was a meat head thing to do, stimulating the lizard brain.

its kind of the equivalent of wearing affliction or tapout shirts. i would love to own a diesel again, but i can't when considering how silly it is for my use case and the planet.

i would get/want an electric truck though

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Just Joe

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1134 on: October 25, 2021, 02:50:37 PM »
You can make artificial fuel, no problem, Hitler did it.
But then and now the main problem is that it's several times more expensive. (And I don't think it's better environmentally btw.)

Coal rolling is when bubbas in modified diesel pickups dump extra fuel in the combustion chamber. This causes the engine to emit plumes of black smoke from the exhaust. It looks like the exhaust from an old steam locomotive. It can make it hard to see if someone does it in front of you.
If you did this as a steam engine driver, your supervidor would give you a headache. And the next time the last pay cheque.

Rolling Coal is the epitome of human stupidity. If there are Aliens, they only need to show this to convince everyone to put a "wild animals, do not enter" sign on our solar system.

Porsche has announced intentions to make synthetic fuels going forward.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 03:08:02 PM by Just Joe »

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1135 on: October 25, 2021, 03:02:20 PM »
Rental fleet ramp-up:
https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/

About time rental companies offered this as a choice.

This will alter the used car pricing for the S when the fleet cars are sold.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1136 on: October 25, 2021, 03:40:51 PM »
Rental fleet ramp-up:
https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/

About time rental companies offered this as a choice.

This will alter the used car pricing for the S when the fleet cars are sold.

I bet they'll keep them in service longer than the ICE cars - I'm curious to see how it all pans out.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1137 on: October 25, 2021, 03:44:58 PM »
Rental fleet ramp-up:
https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/

About time rental companies offered this as a choice.

This will alter the used car pricing for the S when the fleet cars are sold.

I bet they'll keep them in service longer than the ICE cars - I'm curious to see how it all pans out.

I’ll take that bet.
For rental cars it’s never seemed to be about mechanical reliability, but near- new interiors. IIRC most rental cars are sold before they hit 35,000 miles. Even for an ICE vehicle that’s still almost brand new.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1138 on: October 25, 2021, 03:57:28 PM »
Hmm a rental is probably the place I wouldn't want an electric right now.  I presumably don't know the area, am staying at a hotel, and just generally don't know the distances/area.  Gas stations are still ubiquitous, and range is still generally superior.

My wife and I have been talking about ordering a Model Y for about a month, and we were almost convinced to pull the trigger.  Then they cranked the price by another 2K, and I'm a bit bitter about it. We may end up buying another ICE now.   It was a stretch to begin with, and they're just still too expensive and compromised to bite the bullet. The 20K we'll save will buy a ton of gas, and they'll almost certainly be more options in ~10 years or so when we need another vehicle.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1139 on: October 25, 2021, 04:21:38 PM »
Just get a used Gen 2 Volt.  They've come down in price somewhat, and are still the best "do all things for all people" car out there.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1140 on: October 25, 2021, 04:27:56 PM »
thanks all for the very detailed info on diesel engines and 'roll coal". 

Having only heard the term in passing I thought it had something to do with burning/mining more coal.  I'm guessing it's more tied to the black color of the exhaust then?

after all that's been said it seems beyond stupid - people doing things against their own interest simply because it pisses other people off.

Sad to say but if I still had the diesel, I'd blast the tailgaters again.  I guess there is evil in us all.

Why not just let your foot off the accelerator, and let them pass you?  You get rid of the person tailgating, there's no environmental damage, and you reduce the risk of an accident.

Not exactly evil, but it seems like what you're indicating as a preference is low reward/high risk and motivated by emotion rather than good decision making.

It definitely made me feel good.  Like I said,......evil.

As far as letting up on the accelerator, I've done that for years.  I've noted something very very strange.  I've seen very often people will not pass until you hit 35-40 mph.  This has been on a 4 lane highway where they had plenty of room.  When they finally did perform their easy pass, they would look at me with a scowl or worse as they passed me.  Then they would accelerate to the next car ahead where they would resume tailgating.

Electric cars should eliminate both my former soot blowing behavior and with assisted (or fully automated) driving help eliminate tailgating.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1141 on: October 25, 2021, 04:32:06 PM »
This latest turn in discussion makes me look forward to a time when cars aren’t driven by humans anymore…

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1142 on: October 25, 2021, 04:34:02 PM »
Perhaps the automated driving software will learn human driving habits and tailgate also. Bwahaha!

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1143 on: October 25, 2021, 04:47:11 PM »
This latest turn in discussion makes me look forward to a time when cars aren’t driven by humans anymore…

Should happen around the time fusion powered cars are a thing.  "20-50 years," or, in practical terms, "Never, but keep the funding coming, I've built my career on this and intend to retire before other people figure out it won't work too."

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1144 on: October 25, 2021, 05:20:05 PM »
This latest turn in discussion makes me look forward to a time when cars aren’t driven by humans anymore…

Should happen around the time fusion powered cars are a thing.  "20-50 years," or, in practical terms, "Never, but keep the funding coming, I've built my career on this and intend to retire before other people figure out it won't work too."

Meh - I’d take that bet. From my view I’ve seen a relentless and accelerating path towards automation in the last decade. But I think the ultimate push will come from the actuators and litigators.

I guess we will just have to wait and see.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1145 on: October 25, 2021, 05:24:18 PM »
Rental fleet ramp-up:
https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/

About time rental companies offered this as a choice.

This will alter the used car pricing for the S when the fleet cars are sold.

I bet they'll keep them in service longer than the ICE cars - I'm curious to see how it all pans out.

I’ll take that bet.
For rental cars it’s never seemed to be about mechanical reliability, but near- new interiors. IIRC most rental cars are sold before they hit 35,000 miles. Even for an ICE vehicle that’s still almost brand new.

How much of that is general wear and how much is wear on buttons/switches/climate knobs/etc that don't really exist in the Tesla, though?  There's two stalks and a touchscreen -- other than people just destroying the interior, there's not much there to wear out.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1146 on: October 25, 2021, 05:45:57 PM »
Rental fleet ramp-up:
https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/

About time rental companies offered this as a choice.

This will alter the used car pricing for the S when the fleet cars are sold.

I bet they'll keep them in service longer than the ICE cars - I'm curious to see how it all pans out.

I’ll take that bet.
For rental cars it’s never seemed to be about mechanical reliability, but near- new interiors. IIRC most rental cars are sold before they hit 35,000 miles. Even for an ICE vehicle that’s still almost brand new.

How much of that is general wear and how much is wear on buttons/switches/climate knobs/etc that don't really exist in the Tesla, though?  There's two stalks and a touchscreen -- other than people just destroying the interior, there's not much there to wear out.

It's not about it wearing out as much as it's about it being the latest and greatest and looking and feeling new.

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1147 on: October 25, 2021, 06:38:43 PM »
Rental fleet ramp-up:
https://electrek.co/2021/10/25/hertz-orders-100000-teslas-the-single-largest-ev-purchase-ever/

About time rental companies offered this as a choice.

This will alter the used car pricing for the S when the fleet cars are sold.

I bet they'll keep them in service longer than the ICE cars - I'm curious to see how it all pans out.

I’ll take that bet.
For rental cars it’s never seemed to be about mechanical reliability, but near- new interiors. IIRC most rental cars are sold before they hit 35,000 miles. Even for an ICE vehicle that’s still almost brand new.

How much of that is general wear and how much is wear on buttons/switches/climate knobs/etc that don't really exist in the Tesla, though?  There's two stalks and a touchscreen -- other than people just destroying the interior, there's not much there to wear out.

It's not about it wearing out as much as it's about it being the latest and greatest and looking and feeling new.

A 2018 Model 3 is basically indistinguishable from a 2022 unless you know what you're looking for ;)

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1148 on: October 25, 2021, 07:41:33 PM »
Rental cars, like rental houses, are often used harshly. We've all seen near new rental cars with scratched up bumpers from people loading luggage. There's no reason to think that drivers will baby their rental EV.

I wonder how much Hertz will charge for non-full batteries on return. They do, what, a 2x multiplier for gas?

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1149 on: October 26, 2021, 03:57:34 AM »
Rental cars, like rental houses, are often used harshly. We've all seen near new rental cars with scratched up bumpers from people loading luggage. There's no reason to think that drivers will baby their rental EV.

I wonder how much Hertz will charge for non-full batteries on return. They do, what, a 2x multiplier for gas?

With current charging times I'd say they have to charge for you upon return