Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[BuffaloStache]

Teslas Depreciate Way Faster Than Maseratis Or Alfa Romeos: Study

On average, used EVs dropped 31.8%. Leading the pack is the Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf, but not far behind was the Tesla Model X with a 24.6% drop, followed by the Model 3 at 24.1%, and the Model S at 20.5%.

Eh- this doesn't bother my much because I plan on keeping my Bolt EUV for a long time; hopefully 10 years or more.

For what it's worth, yesterday was my 1 year anniversary of owning my Bolt EUV. Just over 15k miles of fun driving and still enjoy the car as much as the day I got it!

[GilesMM]

Hertz made a huge bet on electric cars (mostly Tesla and Polecat) but it didn't work out.  Renters didn't want them, they were expensive to repair, and resale value was low.  The CEO was just fired and they are moving back to ICE vehicles.  I wonder what will happen to that football player on their advertisements for EV rentals.

[Paper Chaser]

Hertz made a huge bet on electric cars (mostly Tesla and Polecat) but it didn't work out.  Renters didn't want them, they were expensive to repair, and resale value was low.  The CEO was just fired and they are moving back to ICE vehicles.  I wonder what will happen to that football player on their advertisements for EV rentals.

Hertz screwed the pooch with their implementation. EVs are great if you can charge where you park, don't have to take super long trips, and keep them long enough for the decreased maintenance costs to actually pay off. Hertz didn't really do any of that. They didn't have the charging infrastructure in many locations to ensure their fleet of EVs could be recharged quickly/easily. They didn't keep them long enough for the lower maintenance advantages to pay off. And they didn't properly account for the fluctuation(s) in depreciation, although not many fleets did or can anticipate significant, random price changes from OEMs.

[dandarc]

Hertz made a huge bet on electric cars (mostly Tesla and Polecat) but it didn't work out.  Renters didn't want them, they were expensive to repair, and resale value was low.  The CEO was just fired and they are moving back to ICE vehicles.  I wonder what will happen to that football player on their advertisements for EV rentals.

Hertz screwed the pooch with their implementation. EVs are great if you can charge where you park, don't have to take super long trips, and keep them long enough for the decreased maintenance costs to actually pay off. Hertz didn't really do any of that. They didn't have the charging infrastructure in many locations to ensure their fleet of EVs could be recharged quickly/easily. They didn't keep them long enough for the lower maintenance advantages to pay off. And they didn't properly account for the fluctuation(s) in depreciation, although not many fleets did or can anticipate significant, random price changes from OEMs.

Not to mention they pushed HARD for "Rent a Tesla, drive Uber/Lyft, Profit". And people did that - thus maintenance savings that might have happened were swamped in a lot of cases by using the car as a taxi for 12+ hours per day (apparently many who did this worked in teams of 2).

[Tyson]

Hertz made a huge bet on electric cars (mostly Tesla and Polecat) but it didn't work out.  Renters didn't want them, they were expensive to repair, and resale value was low.  The CEO was just fired and they are moving back to ICE vehicles.  I wonder what will happen to that football player on their advertisements for EV rentals.

Hertz screwed the pooch with their implementation. EVs are great if you can charge where you park, don't have to take super long trips, and keep them long enough for the decreased maintenance costs to actually pay off. Hertz didn't really do any of that. They didn't have the charging infrastructure in many locations to ensure their fleet of EVs could be recharged quickly/easily. They didn't keep them long enough for the lower maintenance advantages to pay off. And they didn't properly account for the fluctuation(s) in depreciation, although not many fleets did or can anticipate significant, random price changes from OEMs.

Not to mention they pushed HARD for "Rent a Tesla, drive Uber/Lyft, Profit". And people did that - thus maintenance savings that might have happened were swamped in a lot of cases by using the car as a taxi for 12+ hours per day (apparently many who did this worked in teams of 2).

I saw that many Uber/Lyft drivers using Tesla got the version with NMC batteries and proceeded to charge them up to 100% at superchargers every day.  That's going to damage the battery.  If they'd gotten the models with LFP batteries that would not have happened as LFP is pretty much impervious to full charges.

I think the biggest problem Hertz had was the extreme price drops that Tesla implemented really affected the value of their re-sales. 

It'll be interesting to see if Tesla continues to cut prices as their cost of goods sold continues to decline.  I did see that they cut prices so aggressively that it cut into their profit margins on the 3 and Y, so I'd guess prices are probably stable for a while.

[NorCal]

Hertz made a huge bet on electric cars (mostly Tesla and Polecat) but it didn't work out.  Renters didn't want them, they were expensive to repair, and resale value was low.  The CEO was just fired and they are moving back to ICE vehicles.  I wonder what will happen to that football player on their advertisements for EV rentals.

Hertz screwed the pooch with their implementation. EVs are great if you can charge where you park, don't have to take super long trips, and keep them long enough for the decreased maintenance costs to actually pay off. Hertz didn't really do any of that. They didn't have the charging infrastructure in many locations to ensure their fleet of EVs could be recharged quickly/easily. They didn't keep them long enough for the lower maintenance advantages to pay off. And they didn't properly account for the fluctuation(s) in depreciation, although not many fleets did or can anticipate significant, random price changes from OEMs.

Not to mention they pushed HARD for "Rent a Tesla, drive Uber/Lyft, Profit". And people did that - thus maintenance savings that might have happened were swamped in a lot of cases by using the car as a taxi for 12+ hours per day (apparently many who did this worked in teams of 2).

I saw that many Uber/Lyft drivers using Tesla got the version with NMC batteries and proceeded to charge them up to 100% at superchargers every day.  That's going to damage the battery.  If they'd gotten the models with LFP batteries that would not have happened as LFP is pretty much impervious to full charges.

I think the biggest problem Hertz had was the extreme price drops that Tesla implemented really affected the value of their re-sales. 

It'll be interesting to see if Tesla continues to cut prices as their cost of goods sold continues to decline.  I did see that they cut prices so aggressively that it cut into their profit margins on the 3 and Y, so I'd guess prices are probably stable for a while.

A quick glance at the financials shows Tesla with ~18% gross margins compared to 10%ish for Ford and GM.  As much as Tesla doesn't want to cut prices, they'll probably end up with lower prices as more competition enters the EV space.  This will be bad for Tesla's valuation, but great news for EV buyers.

The next few years are going to be weird for EV depreciation.  I expect a lot of "step-function" depreciation events as technology progresses.  For example, the CCS versions of EV's will probably take a big step down in value when the comparable NACS version is available.  Similar things could happen with 800V charging, and other tech enhancements.

[NorCal]

I had an interesting anecdote on the whole rental-car situation this morning.

My wife is flying to California next week for a funeral.  She's sharing a rental car with her sister while there.

My wife booked an EV rental because that's what she's now familiar with.  Neither of us care to drive gas cars anymore.

Her sister FREAKED OUT about charging.  There's no charger at the hotel, and how could they manage?  Keep in mind that they'll probably drive a combined 50 miles while there, and are staying in a major metro area. 

It's just a reminder that we're all slave to our own psychological biases and familiarities.  Fear of the unknown/change is probably the biggest hindrance to broader EV adoption. 

[AlanStache]

I wonder how much the wider public will see the Hertz backtrack as conformation that EV's are shit and no one wants them or will it just not register at all.  Probably has minimal effect on people already inclined to go get one. 

[NorCal]

I wonder how much the wider public will see the Hertz backtrack as conformation that EV's are shit and no one wants them or will it just not register at all.  Probably has minimal effect on people already inclined to go get one.

I don't think most people care or are paying attention.

I think Hertz overbuying and selling into the market is a partial contributor to the doom and gloom about EV's out there. 

There were ~1 million new EV's sold in the US last year.  Hertz is dumping what, 50k-65k relatively new EV's into the used car market?  That's 5%+ of the entire EV market in the US up for sale.  It's not to say there aren't other issues, but this is big enough to have an impact. 

[Just Joe]

Hertz made a huge bet on electric cars (mostly Tesla and Polecat) but it didn't work out.  Renters didn't want them, they were expensive to repair, and resale value was low.  The CEO was just fired and they are moving back to ICE vehicles.  I wonder what will happen to that football player on their advertisements for EV rentals.

Hertz screwed the pooch with their implementation. EVs are great if you can charge where you park, don't have to take super long trips, and keep them long enough for the decreased maintenance costs to actually pay off. Hertz didn't really do any of that. They didn't have the charging infrastructure in many locations to ensure their fleet of EVs could be recharged quickly/easily. They didn't keep them long enough for the lower maintenance advantages to pay off. And they didn't properly account for the fluctuation(s) in depreciation, although not many fleets did or can anticipate significant, random price changes from OEMs.

Not to mention they pushed HARD for "Rent a Tesla, drive Uber/Lyft, Profit". And people did that - thus maintenance savings that might have happened were swamped in a lot of cases by using the car as a taxi for 12+ hours per day (apparently many who did this worked in teams of 2).

I saw that many Uber/Lyft drivers using Tesla got the version with NMC batteries and proceeded to charge them up to 100% at superchargers every day.  That's going to damage the battery.  If they'd gotten the models with LFP batteries that would not have happened as LFP is pretty much impervious to full charges.

I think the biggest problem Hertz had was the extreme price drops that Tesla implemented really affected the value of their re-sales. 

It'll be interesting to see if Tesla continues to cut prices as their cost of goods sold continues to decline.  I did see that they cut prices so aggressively that it cut into their profit margins on the 3 and Y, so I'd guess prices are probably stable for a while.

A quick glance at the financials shows Tesla with ~18% gross margins compared to 10%ish for Ford and GM.  As much as Tesla doesn't want to cut prices, they'll probably end up with lower prices as more competition enters the EV space.  This will be bad for Tesla's valuation, but great news for EV buyers.

The next few years are going to be weird for EV depreciation.  I expect a lot of "step-function" depreciation events as technology progresses.  For example, the CCS versions of EV's will probably take a big step down in value when the comparable NACS version is available.  Similar things could happen with 800V charging, and other tech enhancements.

I guess the Nissan Leaf could be watched as an example. It has neither CCS nor NACS.

In my part of the country I'm still seeing alot of ~$20K used Nissan SL PLus before rebate which seems high.

[mizzourah2006]

I wonder how much the wider public will see the Hertz backtrack as conformation that EV's are shit and no one wants them or will it just not register at all.  Probably has minimal effect on people already inclined to go get one.

I think Hertz backtracking is unrelated to whether an individual should get one or not. People renting cars are renting them to drive. Usually pretty long distances or they'd just use rideshare. EVs are not great at that and public charging infrastructure is poor and about as expensive as gas until it gets to ~$4/gallon.

Most of these should be small factors in deciding whether or not you would buy an EV for everyday life.

[nereo]

I wonder how much the wider public will see the Hertz backtrack as conformation that EV's are shit and no one wants them or will it just not register at all.  Probably has minimal effect on people already inclined to go get one.

I think Hertz backtracking is unrelated to whether an individual should get one or not. People renting cars are renting them to drive. Usually pretty long distances or they'd just use rideshare. EVs are not great at that and public charging infrastructure is poor and about as expensive as gas until it gets to ~$4/gallon.

How did you arrive at that figure? Our own analysis has the crossover point around $1.85 given the cost of electricity (or more specifically $/kw*h per mi).
The only way I arrive near $4 is if I’m using primarily pay-per-use DCFC.
In reality more than 80% of our charging is free between work, a 3 year network subscription and the wide assortment of free public chargers in our area.

[mizzourah2006]

I wonder how much the wider public will see the Hertz backtrack as conformation that EV's are shit and no one wants them or will it just not register at all.  Probably has minimal effect on people already inclined to go get one.

I think Hertz backtracking is unrelated to whether an individual should get one or not. People renting cars are renting them to drive. Usually pretty long distances or they'd just use rideshare. EVs are not great at that and public charging infrastructure is poor and about as expensive as gas until it gets to ~$4/gallon.

How did you arrive at that figure? Our own analysis has the crossover point around $1.85 given the cost of electricity (or more specifically $/kw*h per mi).
The only way I arrive near $4 is if I’m using primarily pay-per-use DCFC.
In reality more than 80% of our charging is free between work, a 3 year network subscription and the wide assortment of free public chargers in our area.

My assumption is that people renting cars don't have home charging so they are relying on superchargers and such to "fill up". For me charging at home the crossover point is definitely significantly lower.

[AlanStache]

...
My assumption is that people renting cars don't have home charging so they are relying on superchargers and such to "fill up". For me charging at home the crossover point is definitely significantly lower.

or charging at the hotel, would expect hotels to keep charing rates modest to attract guests.  But dont really feel like digging into that. 

[dandarc]

I wonder how much the wider public will see the Hertz backtrack as conformation that EV's are shit and no one wants them or will it just not register at all.  Probably has minimal effect on people already inclined to go get one.

I think Hertz backtracking is unrelated to whether an individual should get one or not. People renting cars are renting them to drive. Usually pretty long distances or they'd just use rideshare. EVs are not great at that and public charging infrastructure is poor and about as expensive as gas until it gets to ~$4/gallon.

How did you arrive at that figure? Our own analysis has the crossover point around $1.85 given the cost of electricity (or more specifically $/kw*h per mi).
The only way I arrive near $4 is if I’m using primarily pay-per-use DCFC.
In reality more than 80% of our charging is free between work, a 3 year network subscription and the wide assortment of free public chargers in our area.

My assumption is that people renting cars don't have home charging so they are relying on superchargers and such to "fill up". For me charging at home the crossover point is definitely significantly lower.

I'm kind of an odd duck, but one of the things I always do in terms of spending more money for convenience is pre-paid fuel when I rent a car. Hertz was charging $35 for that on the EVs (Actually was "return with 10-70% battery" if I'm remembering the terms correctly - comparable to slightly less than what that service has been running when we rent a Toyota Corolla or similar kind of vehicle for gas. So that's another small data-point for "if you buy electricity for your car per use, expect to pay about the same price as gas", albeit I'd peg the break-even a little lower than $4 per gallon based on my own experience when I've rented and used the fast chargers much more than I do at home.

On one recent rental, I remember Budget offering the guy in front of us to either wait until they could pull the kind of car that he requested around or take a truck or an EV. So Hertz isn't the only rental car company doing EVs - perhaps just the one that made the largest and most widely publicized bet. I had booked Avis on that one and no such offer was made to me.

[AlanStache]

...

On one recent rental, I remember Budget offering the guy in front of us to either wait until they could pull the kind of car that he requested around or take a truck or an EV. So Hertz isn't the only rental car company doing EVs - perhaps just the one that made the largest and most widely publicized bet. I had booked Avis on that one and no such offer was made to me.

I could definitely see an advantage to staring small and quiet, learn some lessons the hard way with people inclined to select an EV then scale and hire Foot Ball Guy. 

[2sk22]

I had two rides in EVs recently, both underwhelming.

- I dropped off my wife's Camry Hybrid at the dealer for routine maintenance and was given a free Lyft ride back home. To my pleasant surprise, the car was a Kia EV6 driven by a young woman. It felt claustrophobic in the rear seat thanks to the narrow slit-style windows. It was definitely quiet and smooth but not any better than my wife's Camry. I ruled it out as a purchase candidate.

- Neighbor gave me drive in his three year old Tesla model 3 and I was not impressed. Shoddy and noisy interior with things squeaking all over. This simply reinforced my desire to never give a cent to Tesla.

Still waiting for half decent EV that would persuade me to replace either of my cars

[Jack0Life]

My shift into EV, particularly Tesla.
Through the years, I rarely pay attention EV. Same as everyone. Too expensive, range anxiety, all the usual EV fears.
The thought of EV was a cool one but I always thought about getting a plug-in before full electric.

My wife got a new job last Oct and it's 85 miles round trip.
She has a Lexus IS250 and not really great for long distance.
We thought about getting a plug-in Prius Prime. The one we wanted was close to $40k and a wait list plus greedy dealers wanting price adjustment. Don't get me started with Toyota as we waited over 2 yrs to get a Sienna at MSRP and couldn't.
Wife then said an interesting to me. What about full electric and get a Tesla ??

Yup, I shifted gears and did all the research on Tesla. The possibility of getting a our first EV becoming real.
Through I research, I found out that starting 2024 the $7500 will be POS but Tesla was going to lose it's fed credit in 2024.
2024 came and the Model Y retained it's Fed credit and as soon as the $7500 POS became available, I jumped on it.
$51,000+1400 delivery fee. Minus $5100 inventory discount and $7500 credit made it just under $40k for a brand new long range AWD Model Y.
I even surprised my wife. Traded in her beloved Lexus without her knowing it.

Love everything about the car. I will probably end up trading mine in for another Tesla.
As everyone say, it's a smartphone on wheels.
I'm touting Tesla to anybody that I come across and they probably think I work for Tesla.
In fact in my group of friends, 2 other couples got a Model Y a week after I did. a 4th couples bought one 3 weeks after us.
I figured out that on her 85mile work trip would cost her $13.6 for gas vs $2.56 for electric as we 100% charge at home @.11 per kwh.
Mine is the blue one.

[JLee]

My shift into EV, particularly Tesla.
Through the years, I rarely pay attention EV. Same as everyone. Too expensive, range anxiety, all the usual EV fears.
The thought of EV was a cool one but I always thought about getting a plug-in before full electric.

My wife got a new job last Oct and it's 85 miles round trip.
She has a Lexus IS250 and not really great for long distance.
We thought about getting a plug-in Prius Prime. The one we wanted was close to $40k and a wait list plus greedy dealers wanting price adjustment. Don't get me started with Toyota as we waited over 2 yrs to get a Sienna at MSRP and couldn't.
Wife then said an interesting to me. What about full electric and get a Tesla ??

Yup, I shifted gears and did all the research on Tesla. The possibility of getting a our first EV becoming real.
Through I research, I found out that starting 2024 the $7500 will be POS but Tesla was going to lose it's fed credit in 2024.
2024 came and the Model Y retained it's Fed credit and as soon as the $7500 POS became available, I jumped on it.
$51,000+1400 delivery fee. Minus $5100 inventory discount and $7500 credit made it just under $40k for a brand new long range AWD Model Y.
I even surprised my wife. Traded in her beloved Lexus without her knowing it.

Love everything about the car. I will probably end up trading mine in for another Tesla.
As everyone say, it's a smartphone on wheels.
I'm touting Tesla to anybody that I come across and they probably think I work for Tesla.
In fact in my group of friends, 2 other couples got a Model Y a week after I did. a 4th couples bought one 3 weeks after us.
I figured out that on her 85mile work trip would cost her $13.6 for gas vs $2.56 for electric as we 100% charge at home @.11 per kwh.
Mine is the blue one.

Congrats - my significant other is actually on her way right now to pick up a blue Y LR - similar deal on an inventory car.

[pecunia]

So, it looks like Ford is going to design and build a smaller electric car.

https://electrek.co/2024/03/18/ford-plans-affordable-ev-pickup-suv-starting-25000/

Maybe, they are coming around.  They believe a smaller electric vehicle is right for the market place.  Yet a little over 4 years ago when I went to replace my Focus, no small cars were to be had from these guys.

I just kind of figure if there is room for a small electric vehicle, there will still be those looking for high mileage gas vehicles too.  (At least for a while.)

[MayDay]

This thread and a friend d recently getting an electric rental car against her will made me think about it. I don't have an electric car (yet- I am sure we will get one at some point and I'm not opposed to owning one at all). When I rent a car for personal travel I usually am driving a fair bit and as a non-EV owner I have no idea what the charging systems and infrastructure are.  When I rent a car for work,  same. For both I have no extra time to wait for charging.   I just absolutely don't want to mess with it. I am very every opposed to having a rental EV in almost every situation that I rent a car.

I think that will change if/when I own an EV and know the systems. But until then, on a trip where I am strapped for time is NOT when I want to learn and potentially get trapped somewhere.  And I am sure the EV owners can tell me about how I won't get trapped but I don't see electric charging available at hotels, I don't see it available at work sites I go to, I don't see it at tiny small towns in remote areas near national parks. If I got stranded somewhere at home while learning, I have the resources to sort it out.  Not so while traveling. 

[Raenia]

It does feel like a rental is the worst possible time to have an EV - you're not at home, don't know the area, possibly have tight schedules to keep, etc. You might not know if your destination or hotel has chargers available, are they complimentary or paid, do you have the right apps on your phone... Way too much to keep track of during already possibly stressful travel.

[pecunia]

This thread and a friend d recently getting an electric rental car against her will made me think about it. I don't have an electric car (yet- I am sure we will get one at some point and I'm not opposed to owning one at all). When I rent a car for personal travel I usually am driving a fair bit and as a non-EV owner I have no idea what the charging systems and infrastructure are.  When I rent a car for work,  same. For both I have no extra time to wait for charging.   I just absolutely don't want to mess with it. I am very every opposed to having a rental EV in almost every situation that I rent a car.

I think that will change if/when I own an EV and know the systems. But until then, on a trip where I am strapped for time is NOT when I want to learn and potentially get trapped somewhere.  And I am sure the EV owners can tell me about how I won't get trapped but I don't see electric charging available at hotels, I don't see it available at work sites I go to, I don't see it at tiny small towns in remote areas near national parks. If I got stranded somewhere at home while learning, I have the resources to sort it out.  Not so while traveling.

Good point - I only know of one charging station where I live.  I googled to find more.  It said there was 57 but only listed a few.  I guess you are really dependent on those cell phone apps to find where to charge.  Maybe, it will be different when my present vehicle is old and tired and I am ready for another.  In the interim, the gas stations seem to be thriving and should not close.

[NorCal]

This thread and a friend d recently getting an electric rental car against her will made me think about it. I don't have an electric car (yet- I am sure we will get one at some point and I'm not opposed to owning one at all). When I rent a car for personal travel I usually am driving a fair bit and as a non-EV owner I have no idea what the charging systems and infrastructure are.  When I rent a car for work,  same. For both I have no extra time to wait for charging.   I just absolutely don't want to mess with it. I am very every opposed to having a rental EV in almost every situation that I rent a car.

I think that will change if/when I own an EV and know the systems. But until then, on a trip where I am strapped for time is NOT when I want to learn and potentially get trapped somewhere.  And I am sure the EV owners can tell me about how I won't get trapped but I don't see electric charging available at hotels, I don't see it available at work sites I go to, I don't see it at tiny small towns in remote areas near national parks. If I got stranded somewhere at home while learning, I have the resources to sort it out.  Not so while traveling.

Good point - I only know of one charging station where I live.  I googled to find more.  It said there was 57 but only listed a few.  I guess you are really dependent on those cell phone apps to find where to charge.  Maybe, it will be different when my present vehicle is old and tired and I am ready for another.  In the interim, the gas stations seem to be thriving and should not close.

From a practical standpoint, renting a Tesla would be a non-issue. There’s lots of Tesla chargers, the plugs are simple, and you just plug it in to work. The navigation in the car also helps immensely with the process.

Non-Tesla’s still have a way to go in this area. The chargers are becoming more common, but you sometimes have to create accounts with different companies, and the user experience at the charger is similar to a 16 year-old figuring out how to pump gas for the first time. It’s stupid-easy once you’ve done it once or twice, but intimidating to people that haven’t done it before.

[2sk22]

This thread and a friend d recently getting an electric rental car against her will made me think about it. I don't have an electric car (yet- I am sure we will get one at some point and I'm not opposed to owning one at all). When I rent a car for personal travel I usually am driving a fair bit and as a non-EV owner I have no idea what the charging systems and infrastructure are.  When I rent a car for work,  same. For both I have no extra time to wait for charging.   I just absolutely don't want to mess with it. I am very every opposed to having a rental EV in almost every situation that I rent a car.

I think that will change if/when I own an EV and know the systems. But until then, on a trip where I am strapped for time is NOT when I want to learn and potentially get trapped somewhere.  And I am sure the EV owners can tell me about how I won't get trapped but I don't see electric charging available at hotels, I don't see it available at work sites I go to, I don't see it at tiny small towns in remote areas near national parks. If I got stranded somewhere at home while learning, I have the resources to sort it out.  Not so while traveling.

Good point - I only know of one charging station where I live.  I googled to find more.  It said there was 57 but only listed a few.  I guess you are really dependent on those cell phone apps to find where to charge.  Maybe, it will be different when my present vehicle is old and tired and I am ready for another.  In the interim, the gas stations seem to be thriving and should not close.

About five years ago, I couldn't wait to buy an EV - now my enthusiasm has cooled. Like you, I'll eventually get an EV when one of my cars needs replacing. I was reflecting on this change in sentiment and realized an EV doesn't really solve any problem for me since I don't commute to work in my car (I'm retired) and don't really enjoy driving in any case.

[Tyson]

I'm still somewhat new to the EV ownership experience but one thing that has been really surprising is how much more convenient an EV is if you can plug in at home.  I never realized how much going to the gas station sucks until I no longer had to do it.  I just wake up every day and my car is magically 'full'. 

No need to drive to a gas station at all.

I also remember when I had a gas car that I would need to mentally keep track of how much fuel it had, so I could plan to go get gas when the tank was low.  That's all completely gone now.  One less thing for my brain to keep track of in this world of information overload.

[dandarc]

100% Tyson - I feel like that aspect more than outweighs any range anxiety I might have had. And with range anxiety, once you've owned for a while, you get a good feel for it and suddenly not such a big deal because your car is generally charged up, you know when you need to maybe need to plan for charging a bit and so on.

[pecunia]

This thread and a friend d recently getting an electric rental car against her will made me think about it. I don't have an electric car (yet- I am sure we will get one at some point and I'm not opposed to owning one at all). When I rent a car for personal travel I usually am driving a fair bit and as a non-EV owner I have no idea what the charging systems and infrastructure are.  When I rent a car for work,  same. For both I have no extra time to wait for charging.   I just absolutely don't want to mess with it. I am very every opposed to having a rental EV in almost every situation that I rent a car.

I think that will change if/when I own an EV and know the systems. But until then, on a trip where I am strapped for time is NOT when I want to learn and potentially get trapped somewhere.  And I am sure the EV owners can tell me about how I won't get trapped but I don't see electric charging available at hotels, I don't see it available at work sites I go to, I don't see it at tiny small towns in remote areas near national parks. If I got stranded somewhere at home while learning, I have the resources to sort it out.  Not so while traveling.

Good point - I only know of one charging station where I live.  I googled to find more.  It said there was 57 but only listed a few.  I guess you are really dependent on those cell phone apps to find where to charge.  Maybe, it will be different when my present vehicle is old and tired and I am ready for another.  In the interim, the gas stations seem to be thriving and should not close.

About five years ago, I couldn't wait to buy an EV - now my enthusiasm has cooled. Like you, I'll eventually get an EV when one of my cars needs replacing. I was reflecting on this change in sentiment and realized an EV doesn't really solve any problem for me since I don't commute to work in my car (I'm retired) and don't really enjoy driving in any case.

Same here - I used to put hundreds of miles a week on my cars.  I bought my present vehicle about 4 -1/2 years ago.  I'm almost at 18,000 miles. 

[Telecaster]

I'm still somewhat new to the EV ownership experience but one thing that has been really surprising is how much more convenient an EV is if you can plug in at home.  I never realized how much going to the gas station sucks until I no longer had to do it.  I just wake up every day and my car is magically 'full'. 

For sure.  You never have the "Aw shit, I gotta get gas first" when you leave the house to go somewhere.  If the car is in the driveway, it is full.  The aw shit moments aren't a big deal, but it is a suprising relief to not have them. 

[Just Joe]

We're waiting to buy an EV (used) to meet a couple of financial goals but I've been running trip scenarios on the computer and phone while watching TV.

Given a particular candidate EV (Leaf Plus or Kona), what would a trip to the big metro be like to attend a concert or shop at the big mall? Answer: not bad. The metro is big and our destinations are all downtown.

What would it be like to drive to the relative's house in a different smaller metro and stay overnight?

What if I can't charge at their house b/c despite offering ~$10 to cover $6 worth of electricity if they have (emotional) reservations about their electric bill? Yes, this should only add $6 to your electric bill but if they are skeptical. No worries, we'll charge on the way home.

How close are the chargers to their house? Answer: not close despite living near a mall / shopping district.

Surprisingly, even in that city, one of the largest in the state, chargers are not ubiquitous in the suburbs. Even downtown options are limited.

If we stayed with different relatives and needed to find a commercial charger there are none nearby even though they live in a fancy ZIP code.

Oddly enough, our small university town has more convenient charging opportunities than their city. Makes me wonder - does no one buy EVs in that part of the state or - possibly red state politics at work? 

If we visited by EV we should be able to charge at either relative's homes. Both have a convenient dryer plug. At our house, we'd charge at home nearly 100% of the time.

[bacchi]

I'm still somewhat new to the EV ownership experience but one thing that has been really surprising is how much more convenient an EV is if you can plug in at home.  I never realized how much going to the gas station sucks until I no longer had to do it.  I just wake up every day and my car is magically 'full'. 

For sure.  You never have the "Aw shit, I gotta get gas first" when you leave the house to go somewhere.  If the car is in the driveway, it is full.  The aw shit moments aren't a big deal, but it is a suprising relief to not have them.

I haven't noticed this. Granted, we just bought a PHEV but all of our miles so far have been EV miles (besides driving it home from the dealer). Even when we had a hybrid, we only filled up at most once a month unless we were on a road trip.

[LD_TAndK]

I get irrationally angry at smartphone software, modern websites, my laptop updating, etc.

Is anyone out there like me and but bought a Tesla? Can you report whether you found yourself perpetually irritated?

[FINate]

About five years ago, I couldn't wait to buy an EV - now my enthusiasm has cooled. Like you, I'll eventually get an EV when one of my cars needs replacing. I was reflecting on this change in sentiment and realized an EV doesn't really solve any problem for me since I don't commute to work in my car (I'm retired) and don't really enjoy driving in any case.

Same here - I used to put hundreds of miles a week on my cars.  I bought my present vehicle about 4 -1/2 years ago.  I'm almost at 18,000 miles.

Same. We're FIRE and live in a walkable/bikeable neighborhood, don't drive much anymore. Which means we almost never go to the gas station... maybe every other month. To me one of the biggest benefits of an EV would be no oil changes, but I'm not going to spend $50k to avoid 1-2 per year maintenance.

So we are biding our time. At some point everything will convert to NACS. Heat pumps will be standard equipment. More EVs will use LFP (less risk of thermal runaway, longer lifespan). Less fancy/lux vehicles should (hopefully) be available. The charging network will be more filled in. On that last item, the long and questionable charging gap between Boise and Winnemucca, NV (the most direct route between Boise and the Bay Area) has improved, with a couple of DCFC in the middle. And McCall, ID finally has DCFC. Still waiting on Stanley, ID to get one, but once that happens an EV is very viable for us.

[NorCal]

I get irrationally angry at smartphone software, modern websites, my laptop updating, etc.

Is anyone out there like me and but bought a Tesla? Can you report whether you found yourself perpetually irritated?

I don't have the same irritation with software, but I have thought about people like my mom owning a Tesla.  She doesn't own a smartphone and doesn't want one.  I think the user experience would not be great.

I can say with confidence that a Tesla is not for you.  The phone app is your key and a fairly important part of the user experience.  The car interface feels very much like a mobile app, albeit a high quality one. 

Maybe try renting one for a day if you're truly interested.  But a Tesla is deliberately designed to feel like a smartphone on wheels.

Some brands are leaning into Tesla's design decisions, some are keeping cars much more traditional.  I'd look at some of the other options in your use-case. 

[Psychstache]

I get irrationally angry at smartphone software, modern websites, my laptop updating, etc.

Is anyone out there like me and but bought a Tesla? Can you report whether you found yourself perpetually irritated?

I don't have the same irritation with software, but I have thought about people like my mom owning a Tesla.  She doesn't own a smartphone and doesn't want one.  I think the user experience would not be great.

I can say with confidence that a Tesla is not for you.  The phone app is your key and a fairly important part of the user experience.  The car interface feels very much like a mobile app, albeit a high quality one. 

Maybe try renting one for a day if you're truly interested.  But a Tesla is deliberately designed to feel like a smartphone on wheels.

Some brands are leaning into Tesla's design decisions, some are keeping cars much more traditional.  I'd look at some of the other options in your use-case.

This is one of the things I like about the Nissan Leaf. In some ways, I think of it more like a car that runs on electricity vs. an "electric car" in the sense that everything about the car is very ICE-like, except the guts.

[Just Joe]

Anyone want a fancy EV SUV for $25K?

https://news.google.com/search?q=fisker%20ocean

[LennStar]

The phone app is your key and a fairly important part of the user experience.  The car interface feels very much like a mobile app, albeit a high quality one. 

Maybe try renting one for a day if you're truly interested.  But a Tesla is deliberately designed to feel like a smartphone on wheels.

Wait, so I could not rent one because my dumb phone can't run a Tesla app?

[Tyson]

The phone app is your key and a fairly important part of the user experience.  The car interface feels very much like a mobile app, albeit a high quality one. 

Maybe try renting one for a day if you're truly interested.  But a Tesla is deliberately designed to feel like a smartphone on wheels.

Wait, so I could not rent one because my dumb phone can't run a Tesla app?

Teslas can be run from your phone, but they also come with physical key cards you can use as well.

[GuitarStv]

The phone app is your key and a fairly important part of the user experience.  The car interface feels very much like a mobile app, albeit a high quality one. 

Maybe try renting one for a day if you're truly interested.  But a Tesla is deliberately designed to feel like a smartphone on wheels.

Wait, so I could not rent one because my dumb phone can't run a Tesla app?

Teslas can be run from your phone, but they also come with physical key cards you can use as well.

Does Tesla require use of an app for service scheduling?

Also not a tesla specific question, but do EV chargers require you to have a cell phone to use them?

[nereo]

Also not a tesla specific question, but do EV chargers require you to have a cell phone to use them?

For Pay-as-you-charge roadside ev chargers, almost all that I’ve seen have both an app and a credit card interface. Many L2 chargers are “dumb” and require no payment at all.

Tesla and other network chargers can be set up to work directly with the vehicle, so you have Ann account and plug in and you just get billed.

[NorCal]

Also not a tesla specific question, but do EV chargers require you to have a cell phone to use them?

For Pay-as-you-charge roadside ev chargers, almost all that I’ve seen have both an app and a credit card interface. Many L2 chargers are “dumb” and require no payment at all.

Tesla and other network chargers can be set up to work directly with the vehicle, so you have Ann account and plug in and you just get billed.

My experience is maybe 50%-70% of EV chargers have a separate card reader.  And maybe 20% of those chargers have one payment method broken.  So you need to be prepared to use either a credit card or the RFID/mobile reader.

However, all of the major networks will provide you with an RFID card you can use in place of a phone.  I have cards for EVGO, EVConnect, and Blink that I can use in place of my phone.  I just leave them in the car.   

We're also seeing the early days of "Plug and Charge" capabilities outside of Tesla.  I can now do this at EVGO and Tesla with my Rivian.  Ford's network allows Plug & Charge with EA, Tesla, and I believe a few others. 

The new NEVI standards require a card reader, so I expect those will become nearly ubiquitous over the next few years. 

[Tyson]

Does Tesla require use of an app for service scheduling?

Also not a tesla specific question, but do EV chargers require you to have a cell phone to use them?

For Tesla you can call the service center directly and set up an appointment, no need for the app.

[GuitarStv]

Does Tesla require use of an app for service scheduling?

Also not a tesla specific question, but do EV chargers require you to have a cell phone to use them?

For Tesla you can call the service center directly and set up an appointment, no need for the app.

Have you tried that?

Everything that I've read online says that it's way understaffed and average wait times when calling for service are multi-hour - or that it just tells you to use the app.  Is the phone number really a valid option for this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/1abooa2/tesla_isnt_letting_me_book_at_a_local_service/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/10jkuum/anyone_know_a_better_method_to_contact_tesla_it/
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ej17w3/anyone_else_completely_frustrated_trying_to_reach/
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/co90ss/getting_tesla_on_the_phone/

[halfling]

Haven't read this entire thread, but I am hoping for more widespread urban EV charging solutions soon. I would love to have an EV replace my old car one day. I don't know what the national stats are, but out of 8-9 homes I've lived in around the country, I think only 4 had space where I could have set up my own car charging. My new home is a SFH but has no driveway or garage, just street parking, as is common in many older neighborhoods. I can't see an EV being practical for me until public charging is nearly as widespread and fast as gas stations.

Some people in the city run charging cables from their house across the sidewalk to their cars but I think that's likely illegal (it's definitely harmful to public accessibility and safety, anyway). In Berlin, years ago, I saw an electric moped with a battery you could remove and bring indoors to charge at your house/work.  If I could bring the car's battery inside separately to charge, that would work great, but as I understand it the batteries are about the size of... a car, lol. It will be interesting to watch the charging landscape evolve in the years to come, but right now it feels very far away from being the default.

[Tyson]

Does Tesla require use of an app for service scheduling?

Also not a tesla specific question, but do EV chargers require you to have a cell phone to use them?

For Tesla you can call the service center directly and set up an appointment, no need for the app.

Have you tried that?

Everything that I've read online says that it's way understaffed and average wait times when calling for service are multi-hour - or that it just tells you to use the app.  Is the phone number really a valid option for this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/1abooa2/tesla_isnt_letting_me_book_at_a_local_service/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/10jkuum/anyone_know_a_better_method_to_contact_tesla_it/
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ej17w3/anyone_else_completely_frustrated_trying_to_reach/
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/co90ss/getting_tesla_on_the_phone/

I haven't needed service in quite a while so I don't know how things are right now.  It also probably varies quite a bit from city to city.

[Just Joe]

Just had an idea: chargers at all Starbucks (urban) and Dollar Generals (rural).

Still playing with the "A Better Route Planner" and running simulations for all the out of town places we go in a year's time.

[Tyson]

Just had an idea: chargers at all Starbucks (urban) and Dollar Generals (rural).

Still playing with the "A Better Route Planner" and running simulations for all the out of town places we go in a year's time.

If things get really desperate, you can always plug in at any place that has a 220v outlet.  For example if you are staying with family and they don't have any chargers around, you can use the adapter and plug in to their electric dryer outlet.  Or really any 220v outlet.  Adds about 30 miles per hour you have it plugged in.

Also if you are in wilderness and need some juice, you can go to an RV park and plug in there, using an adapter. 

[NorCal]

Just had an idea: chargers at all Starbucks (urban) and Dollar Generals (rural).

Still playing with the "A Better Route Planner" and running simulations for all the out of town places we go in a year's time.

Announcement:
https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2022/find-an-ev-charger-at-starbucks-stores-from-seattle-to-denver/

Media test drive of the route:
https://www.newsweek.com/i-drove-1400-miles-starbucks-new-electric-vehicle-charging-route-1851252

[RWD]

Just had an idea: chargers at all Starbucks (urban) and Dollar Generals (rural).

Still playing with the "A Better Route Planner" and running simulations for all the out of town places we go in a year's time.

If things get really desperate, you can always plug in at any place that has a 220v outlet.  For example if you are staying with family and they don't have any chargers around, you can use the adapter and plug in to their electric dryer outlet.  Or really any 220v outlet.  Adds about 30 miles per hour you have it plugged in.

Also if you are in wilderness and need some juice, you can go to an RV park and plug in there, using an adapter.

A lot of (most?) EVs come with a cable/adapter for 120V as well. Which means you can charge effectively anywhere in a pinch. It's slow but it's good safeguard against getting stranded.

[Just Joe]

Yup. It's all moot. Not planning to travel much by EV yet. Haven't bought an EV yet. We have a nice gas powered vehicle for that but already thinking about the future after the gas powered vehicle too.