Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[JLee]

After 2035 in CA - will people be able to import ICE cars from other states? If someone moves to CA, will they be able to bring their ICE car with them?

Presumably yes, given that is not a new car sale:

The California Air Resources Board voted unanimously today to implement perhaps its most significant regulation ever – the Advanced Clean Cars II regulation, which officially implements a planned ban on new gas car sales beginning in 2035 and could shake up the entire US auto market.

[Telecaster]

FWIW I’m a big proponent of installing EV chargers at places like grocery stores, and I frequent one that offers charging for just that reason. Syonyk wrote a great article about why it’s literally better to give L2 charging for free in these places rather than pay to install a metered station such as ChargePoint. But the comment about not being open when it’s dark just struck me as odd, since most of my shopping is done exactly then. Different experiences in different locations, i guess…

My local Safeway has free dumb L2 charging.   Syonyk's economic case is pretty compelling.   It costs a couple bucks an hour to operate.   It a rounding error compared the cost of running the beer cooler.  If you get even a couple more customers a day to stop in because they change it pays for itself.     And the thought process is the same as selling cold beer as opposed to warm beer:  You don't have to keep beer cold.  But people buy more beer if you do keep it cold. 

[Syonyk]

Syonyk's economic case is pretty compelling.

The article in question, for those not familiar: https://www.sevarg.net/2020/04/27/slow-dumb-charging-quit-charging-for-ev/

Which is basically, "Don't spend more in management fees than you would have spent in power in an attempt to ensure you're recovering costs, because that's dumb."

The "church charger" I run (which is currently offline, we added some grass and fence, and need to build a new cable guide gizmo to mount the charger on the fence) implements this.  The $5/mo in discounted management fees were still going to be more than the power cost to run it, and occasionally people leave a $10 or $20 for charging, so... wasn't worth the hassle/cost.

[GuitarStv]

FWIW I’m a big proponent of installing EV chargers at places like grocery stores, and I frequent one that offers charging for just that reason. Syonyk wrote a great article about why it’s literally better to give L2 charging for free in these places rather than pay to install a metered station such as ChargePoint. But the comment about not being open when it’s dark just struck me as odd, since most of my shopping is done exactly then. Different experiences in different locations, i guess…

My local Safeway has free dumb L2 charging.   Syonyk's economic case is pretty compelling.   It costs a couple bucks an hour to operate.   It a rounding error compared the cost of running the beer cooler.  If you get even a couple more customers a day to stop in because they change it pays for itself.     And the thought process is the same as selling cold beer as opposed to warm beer:  You don't have to keep beer cold.  But people buy more beer if you do keep it cold.

Beer does go actually go bad pretty quickly if it's kept in warmer temperatures.  Keeping beer in summer weather (26-30C) for a couple weeks will ensure that when drunk it's not tasting all that great.

[Telecaster]

If you're ever coming through the Boise area, hit me up and I can let you know if we've got them out running somewhere!  They're both out at the Nampa Farmer's Market most Saturdays, and various other places too.  I tow the little one behind the Volt without trouble, and I can tow the big one, but I'd generally rather not - it's up on the limit of what I'm willing to tow with the Volt, so the guy with the pickup usually tows that one.  He's running his well pump on it during the week too, so it just goes home with him.  I'll probably have the big one this winter to back up my office, though.  Beats generator use by a good amount.

Love to!   Those things would be ideal for a food truck.   I love the idea of food truck courts, but I hate the generators thundering away belching blue smoke.   These also would be great for camping at a multi-day music festival.     You could power mechanical refrigeration, outdoor fans, etc. 

[Syonyk]

Love to!   Those things would be ideal for a food truck.

That's actually the primary consumer of power from the big one - a food truck.  Just, some are horribly designed for power.

These also would be great for camping at a multi-day music festival.     You could power mechanical refrigeration, outdoor fans, etc.

Absolutely!

[caracarn]

So just stumbled on this thread and wow, you guys know a ton about this stuff so going to drop my stupid questions here.

I have been interested in moving to an EV when it "makes sense".  First question is best way to figure out when that is?

It is unclear to me on if you can really charge an everyday commuter without adding a charging station with higher voltage which significantly adds to the cost of the already costly EV.  Am I understanding this correctly, or can an EV recharge fully overnight with just 120V?

We just took a trip from Ohio to Missouri for about 750 miles of travel.   I had not seen any charging stations along the way but perhaps that is just because I am not looking for them.   As I have EVs more and more on my mind I'm trying to observe if the things I do with a car make it reasonable to think an EV would work.   I get over 500 miles on a full tank in our 2015 Sonata (145K miles) but I know EVs are about 200-300 at best.  What's the "magic" distance for an EV to be a full replacement (commuter and long trips) in your opinion and why?  In addition as politicians rail against free chargers, as noted upthread, seems this lack of chargers may get worse not better?

I've gone back a few pages reading mainly Syonyk's posts as I found them extremely informative, so it seems the battery longevity I felt concerned about is realistic.  I think I understood the calendar versus cycle life of the battery talked about.   Now that I work from home I drive much, much less, but that can obviously change if I suddenly need to make a job change, but if it does not seems like the calendar life would be my biggest issue (I drive maybe 5K a year now).

I keep waiting for decent EVs to appear in the sub 35K range and seems like 2025 might be it?   

That's enough to get started.   

On a side note, I used to do a lot of the basic maintenance on my cars too as you seem to love Syonyk.  I never got good enough to do a lot of the major stuff, though as you note it's all learnable.  No one is born knowing how to change a water pump.   I've asked around town and no one will take used oil from an oil change you do yourself, so it makes it darn near impossible to even perform your own oil changes these days unless you want to violate the restrictions on dumping, so I do agree that the drive for decades of thrown away product, including cars, is terrible, just not sure it will ever change.  Far too much profit in having people think the only way is to replace decent products or to build in ways the product itself makes its use unbearable after a certain period (tablets, cell phones, etc. with speed loss).  It's the old light bulb example, where there have been rumors out there for decades that light bulbs exist that would never burn out but no one will make them as it would kill the market. 

[nereo]

So just stumbled on this thread and wow, you guys know a ton about this stuff so going to drop my stupid questions here.

I have been interested in moving to an EV when it "makes sense".  First question is best way to figure out when that is?

It is unclear to me on if you can really charge an everyday commuter without adding a charging station with higher voltage which significantly adds to the cost of the already costly EV.  Am I understanding this correctly, or can an EV recharge fully overnight with just 120V?

We just took a trip from Ohio to Missouri for about 750 miles of travel.   I had not seen any charging stations along the way but perhaps that is just because I am not looking for them.   As I have EVs more and more on my mind I'm trying to observe if the things I do with a car make it reasonable to think an EV would work.   I get over 500 miles on a full tank in our 2015 Sonata (145K miles) but I know EVs are about 200-300 at best.  What's the "magic" distance for an EV to be a full replacement (commuter and long trips) in your opinion and why?  In addition as politicians rail against free chargers, as noted upthread, seems this lack of chargers may get worse not better?

I've gone back a few pages reading mainly Syonyk's posts as I found them extremely informative, so it seems the battery longevity I felt concerned about is realistic.  I think I understood the calendar versus cycle life of the battery talked about.   Now that I work from home I drive much, much less, but that can obviously change if I suddenly need to make a job change, but if it does not seems like the calendar life would be my biggest issue (I drive maybe 5K a year now).

I keep waiting for decent EVs to appear in the sub 35K range and seems like 2025 might be it?   

That's enough to get started.   

On a side note, I used to do a lot of the basic maintenance on my cars too as you seem to love Syonyk.  I never got good enough to do a lot of the major stuff, though as you note it's all learnable.  No one is born knowing how to change a water pump.   I've asked around town and no one will take used oil from an oil change you do yourself, so it makes it darn near impossible to even perform your own oil changes these days unless you want to violate the restrictions on dumping, so I do agree that the drive for decades of thrown away product, including cars, is terrible, just not sure it will ever change.  Far too much profit in having people think the only way is to replace decent products or to build in ways the product itself makes its use unbearable after a certain period (tablets, cell phones, etc. with speed loss).  It's the old light bulb example, where there have been rumors out there for decades that light bulbs exist that would never burn out but no one will make them as it would kill the market.

I had my plug-in for a solid year before I ever installed a L2 charger in my home.  It really wasn’t an issue, as the amount of mileage I could add each evening (> 40 miles) far exceeded how much I’d use on average, so my battery pretty much started out always “full”.   I also quickly learned where there were L2 chargers (often free).

As for knowing where chargers are, there are lots of online resources and apps for that.  I’ve found PlugShare to be pretty good (and free) - you can sort by charging type (e.g. L2 vs DC, etc) plug type etc. Once I started looking I discovered lots of places I’d never expect would have them, like a local Audubon preserve, a number of breweries and restaurants and virtually every car dealership and B&B. 

You can plot out a route with chargers and your specific vehicle’s range on a number of online calculators.  I can’t speak to the Midwest but I’ve driven from Maine to DC with nothing but electric, and it involved about 10 minutes of planning, mostly to decide which of many options we’d want to stop at for lunch.  YMMV in your area.

You mentioned you drive 5k a year or so now, so strictly from a cost perspective an EV isn’t going to save you much money, especially if you are do basic car maintenecnce (and ICE maintenence) yourself. But as I mentioned upthread I’ve found EVs to be superior in just about every way I care about… acceleration, quietness, convenience. 

[Syonyk]

It is unclear to me on if you can really charge an everyday commuter without adding a charging station with higher voltage which significantly adds to the cost of the already costly EV.  Am I understanding this correctly, or can an EV recharge fully overnight with just 120V?

You can charge on 120V, but you'll really want at least a 20A/240V circuit if you want to use one as a daily driver sort of vehicle.  If you're running a new circuit, run 50A, because the wire cost isn't that big a factor in the cost of a run, but neither do you need 50A to make an EV workable.  But 120V is workable, just not ideal in the winter (you use more energy for heat, and often an EV will have to heat the battery pack before charging, so a good chunk of the power from the 120V is going to that, not actually charging the battery).

I charge our Volt (PHEV, so has a gas engine if we need it, but only has a 3.3kW onboard charger) with about a $150 Duosida charger, plugged into a 12 gauge extension cord, modified to be a 240V/20A cord by putting new ends on it.  I've also charged Teslas from this for long periods of time and it's just fine.  I'm about... $200 in for the charging infrastructure?  This is probably on the low end, but you don't need a $10k high speed charger with 100A service to it or anything to make an EV usable.  Far, far less is entirely workable, and neither do you need a high end charging station - something cheap and reliable is fine, unless you want to track every kWh through it or something.

I had not seen any charging stations along the way but perhaps that is just because I am not looking for them.

You simply didn't look.  Plugshare.com is your friend.

In addition as politicians rail against free chargers, as noted upthread, seems this lack of chargers may get worse not better?

Nobody cares about those politicians, so they can be safely ignored.  EV charging stations will continue to go in.

I've asked around town and no one will take used oil from an oil change you do yourself, so it makes it darn near impossible to even perform your own oil changes these days...

The auto parts stores that sell oil won't take used oil?  What corner of Hell do you live in?  I just put mine in 5 gallon buckets and take it in every year or so - I occasionally get a dirty look for bringing in two buckets, but neither one is full, it's just easier to use two (one of them is the oil from my truck - that's about 3 gallons or so alone).

It's the old light bulb example, where there have been rumors out there for decades that light bulbs exist that would never burn out but no one will make them as it would kill the market.

The Phoebus Cartel is well enough documented.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel

And Dubai LEDs are a thing too.  https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/

[Just Joe]

We just took a trip from Ohio to Missouri for about 750 miles of travel.   I had not seen any charging stations along the way but perhaps that is just because I am not looking for them.

https://www.plugshare.com

Our first MMM step was to see where our money was going (via Mint). IMHO the first thing you should do when considering an EV is consider where you do most of your miles.

Then consider whether you could charge at home. With a modern EV w/ 200+ miles range that ought to cover most of your needs unless you want to use the EV for roadtrips. Anyhow, this map can help survey your charging needs.

[Just Joe]

RE: used motor oil. In our town I can dump it for free at any of the auto parts stores. I can also dump it at the household waste transfer station. They'll take any oils. Antifreeze too in a separate tank. They will also take old batteries but most of us turn in our old vehicle batteries b/c of the core charge at replacement time. Like a bottle deposit.

[Telecaster]

So just stumbled on this thread and wow, you guys know a ton about this stuff so going to drop my stupid questions here.

I have been interested in moving to an EV when it "makes sense".  First question is best way to figure out when that is?

It is unclear to me on if you can really charge an everyday commuter without adding a charging station with higher voltage which significantly adds to the cost of the already costly EV.  Am I understanding this correctly, or can an EV recharge fully overnight with just 120V?

We just took a trip from Ohio to Missouri for about 750 miles of travel.   I had not seen any charging stations along the way but perhaps that is just because I am not looking for them.   As I have EVs more and more on my mind I'm trying to observe if the things I do with a car make it reasonable to think an EV would work.   I get over 500 miles on a full tank in our 2015 Sonata (145K miles) but I know EVs are about 200-300 at best.  What's the "magic" distance for an EV to be a full replacement (commuter and long trips) in your opinion and why?  In addition as politicians rail against free chargers, as noted upthread, seems this lack of chargers may get worse not better?

I've gone back a few pages reading mainly Syonyk's posts as I found them extremely informative, so it seems the battery longevity I felt concerned about is realistic.  I think I understood the calendar versus cycle life of the battery talked about.   Now that I work from home I drive much, much less, but that can obviously change if I suddenly need to make a job change, but if it does not seems like the calendar life would be my biggest issue (I drive maybe 5K a year now).

I would consider an EV (and I own one, it should be said)  if I had a place to charge where I normally park, either at home or at work.   And 2) if I didn't regularly take trips that exceed the vehicle's range.  But the range limitation I think is mostly overblown/unnecessarily feared. 

For example, a 400 mile trip will take you a good 7-8 hours of driving.  You could do that in one shot in your Sonata, but do you want to?    You're probably going to want to stop at least once, maybe twice.   You can't do that same trip in one shot in an EV (some EVs, but not most of them), so you'll have stop at least once, maybe twice.  You'll have to stop for longer each time, but not a ton of difference really.  And even if you want to do it in one shot, do you need to?   Is it a capability you need to have?   Maybe for some people, but that has to be a rare, niche case. 

Now, if I regularly went a couple hundred miles to visit the in-laws, or had an out-of-town hobby or something that exceeded the vehicle's range, stopping to charge might get to be a pain and I'd probably consider another vehicle.   

[Syonyk]

They will also take old batteries but most of us turn in our old vehicle batteries b/c of the core charge at replacement time. Like a bottle deposit.

Yeah... those core charges have gotten a lot more aggressive recently, to my great dismay.  I buy a lot of batteries for new trailer R&D work and builds, and I don't have cores.  Nor will places let you play games like using a little UPS battery as a core for an L16.  So I'm out typically $50-$100 per battery on the core charges, because they're not replacing existing batteries.

I don't mind them for automotive batteries, but, come on.  They're not relevant for standalone solar focused storage batteries!

[nereo]

[

For example, a 400 mile trip will take you a good 7-8 hours of driving.  You could do that in one shot in your Sonata, but do you want to?    You're probably going to want to stop at least once, maybe twice.   You can't do that same trip in one shot in an EV (some EVs, but not most of them), so you'll have stop at least once, maybe twice.  You'll have to stop for longer each time, but not a ton of difference really.  And even if you want to do it in one shot, do you need to?   Is it a capability you need to have?   Maybe for some people, but that has to be a rare, niche case. 

Well I’d go further - it’s not even a question of whether you need to drive >300 miles without stopping, but whether a person ever should.  And a whole bunch of research tells us that’s just a terrible idea. Bad for your muscles, bad for your body, bad for your mental acuity (which in turn makes it bad for everyone around you).  Of course lots of people DO drive multiple hours without stopping, but that doesn’t make it wise.

[bacchi]

Getting around town is easy. A friend uses a 120v plug to juice up overnight for his commute.

Looking at where I would drive, in the West, I see long stretches with different plugs. There's the standard Nema-14/50, CHADemo, CCS/SAE, J1772, and of course Tesla. When winds cut our mileage by 30%, this would mean...carrying adapter plugs? And hoping that the last resort isn't a regular 120v plug, I guess.

[RWD]

It is unclear to me on if you can really charge an everyday commuter without adding a charging station with higher voltage which significantly adds to the cost of the already costly EV.  Am I understanding this correctly, or can an EV recharge fully overnight with just 120V?

My wife was daily-driving our EV and we only needed to charge it once every 2-3 weeks (short commute). We have only been using the 120V at home. Expect maybe 3 miles or so of range gained per hour on 120V (depending on the EV).

We just took a trip from Ohio to Missouri for about 750 miles of travel.   I had not seen any charging stations along the way but perhaps that is just because I am not looking for them.   As I have EVs more and more on my mind I'm trying to observe if the things I do with a car make it reasonable to think an EV would work.   I get over 500 miles on a full tank in our 2015 Sonata (145K miles) but I know EVs are about 200-300 at best.  What's the "magic" distance for an EV to be a full replacement (commuter and long trips) in your opinion and why?  In addition as politicians rail against free chargers, as noted upthread, seems this lack of chargers may get worse not better?

There are a lot of rapid chargers now. For Ohio to Missouri you can make it the whole way on just Electrify America without ever needing to go more than 170 miles per charge:
https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=e0e9040e-6a71-4832-80e5-55ef2fd41210

We just made a road trip from Mississippi to Wisconsin and back (~800 miles one way) and were able to use exclusively Electrify America stations the whole way. Our EV can do a little over 200 miles on the highway but we never needed to charge above 90% (and usually only charged to around 60% or so).

I think the magic number is 200 miles of reliable highway range (note: this is hard to estimate from EPA range, better to check independent 70 mph tests). Charging stations just aren't going to be more than 200 miles apart. It's typically faster to stop more often anyway (charging is faster at lower percentages). What really dictates the road trip experience in an EV is not the range but how fast you can recharge. 300 miles followed by an hour and a half of recharging is going to suck compared to 150 miles and then 15 minutes of charging. You'll probably want to be stopping for bathroom breaks at least anyway.

I keep waiting for decent EVs to appear in the sub 35K range and seems like 2025 might be it?   

Depends on your definition of decent. There are already multiple 200+ mile range EVs for under $35k (Bolt, Kona, LEAF) before incentives. After incentives there are (/were?) quite a few additional options.

I've asked around town and no one will take used oil from an oil change you do yourself [...]

In addition to auto parts stores Walmart should take the oil (yes, for free).

[badger1988]

[

For example, a 400 mile trip will take you a good 7-8 hours of driving.  You could do that in one shot in your Sonata, but do you want to?    You're probably going to want to stop at least once, maybe twice.   You can't do that same trip in one shot in an EV (some EVs, but not most of them), so you'll have stop at least once, maybe twice.  You'll have to stop for longer each time, but not a ton of difference really.  And even if you want to do it in one shot, do you need to?   Is it a capability you need to have?   Maybe for some people, but that has to be a rare, niche case. 

Well I’d go further - it’s not even a question of whether you need to drive >300 miles without stopping, but whether a person ever should.  And a whole bunch of research tells us that’s just a terrible idea. Bad for your muscles, bad for your body, bad for your mental acuity (which in turn makes it bad for everyone around you).  Of course lots of people DO drive multiple hours without stopping, but that doesn’t make it wise.

Eh, we do these types of drives somewhat regularly. It doesn't bother me at all...much prefer to minimize travel time. For example, we drive 600 miles/9 hours each way to visit my brother in Kansas  twice a year. Typically a single <10 minute stop for gas+restroom. I've got no interest in doing that with an EV. I'm not opposed to the idea of owning one, but I would probably rent something else for longer trips.

[nereo]

[

For example, a 400 mile trip will take you a good 7-8 hours of driving.  You could do that in one shot in your Sonata, but do you want to?    You're probably going to want to stop at least once, maybe twice.   You can't do that same trip in one shot in an EV (some EVs, but not most of them), so you'll have stop at least once, maybe twice.  You'll have to stop for longer each time, but not a ton of difference really.  And even if you want to do it in one shot, do you need to?   Is it a capability you need to have?   Maybe for some people, but that has to be a rare, niche case. 

Well I’d go further - it’s not even a question of whether you need to drive >300 miles without stopping, but whether a person ever should.  And a whole bunch of research tells us that’s just a terrible idea. Bad for your muscles, bad for your body, bad for your mental acuity (which in turn makes it bad for everyone around you).  Of course lots of people DO drive multiple hours without stopping, but that doesn’t make it wise.

Eh, we do these types of drives somewhat regularly. It doesn't bother me at all...much prefer to minimize travel time. For example, we drive 600 miles/9 hours each way to visit my brother in Kansas  twice a year. Typically a single <10 minute stop for gas+restroom. I've got no interest in doing that with an EV. I'm not opposed to the idea of owning one, but I would probably rent something else for longer trips.

I know lots of people who do this. We also know its a bad idea. Kind of like texting while driving.

[LennStar]

Well I’d go further - it’s not even a question of whether you need to drive >300 miles without stopping, but whether a person ever should.  And a whole bunch of research tells us that’s just a terrible idea. Bad for your muscles, bad for your body, bad for your mental acuity (which in turn makes it bad for everyone around you).  Of course lots of people DO drive multiple hours without stopping, but that doesn’t make it wise.

Totally true. But doctors also say you should make 15 pause every hour of screen time, and there is probably not one person on the whole globe doing that ;)
But really, if you drive so much in one go that your car battery needs a recharge, you definitely need one, too. Why do you guess police are so hard on truckers not taking their break time? Because people die if they don't do it.

[RWD]

[

For example, a 400 mile trip will take you a good 7-8 hours of driving.  You could do that in one shot in your Sonata, but do you want to?    You're probably going to want to stop at least once, maybe twice.   You can't do that same trip in one shot in an EV (some EVs, but not most of them), so you'll have stop at least once, maybe twice.  You'll have to stop for longer each time, but not a ton of difference really.  And even if you want to do it in one shot, do you need to?   Is it a capability you need to have?   Maybe for some people, but that has to be a rare, niche case. 

Well I’d go further - it’s not even a question of whether you need to drive >300 miles without stopping, but whether a person ever should.  And a whole bunch of research tells us that’s just a terrible idea. Bad for your muscles, bad for your body, bad for your mental acuity (which in turn makes it bad for everyone around you).  Of course lots of people DO drive multiple hours without stopping, but that doesn’t make it wise.

Eh, we do these types of drives somewhat regularly. It doesn't bother me at all...much prefer to minimize travel time. For example, we drive 600 miles/9 hours each way to visit my brother in Kansas  twice a year. Typically a single <10 minute stop for gas+restroom. I've got no interest in doing that with an EV. I'm not opposed to the idea of owning one, but I would probably rent something else for longer trips.

I know lots of people who do this. We also know its a bad idea. Kind of like texting while driving.

It's also not even saving that much time compared to stopping a couple more times a modern EV. For a 600-mile drive you could stop for 15 minutes at 150, 300, and 450 miles. So roughly 35 minutes extra over those 9 hours. Even less difference if you want to stop to eat anyway during that 9 hour period.

Bjørn Nyland has basically been doing this exact test: see how long it takes to drive 1000 km (621 miles) in an EV. He first tested a hybrid for comparison and it took exactly 9 hours. He did it in a Tesla Model 3 in 9 hours 15-20 minutes. Basically a rounding error. And there are several other EVs that are in that ballpark (and they're only getting better).
Full spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=15442336

[Paper Chaser]

I have been interested in moving to an EV when it "makes sense".  First question is best way to figure out when that is?

Financial sense? Environmental sense? Convenience sense? They all depend on your motivation and use case. The thing about EVs, is that they have a high initial cost both financially and environmentally (from their manufacturing process). They can definitely "math out" to be beneficial in the long term, but the benefits only come on a per-mile basis. The more miles they're driven, the sooner they pay off. If you're driving 5k miles per year, the new EV may never reach the point where it's financially or environmentally justifiable. Especially if the new EV has a big battery to enable tons of range as the battery is the most expensive and intensive part of the vehicle.

It is unclear to me on if you can really charge an everyday commuter without adding a charging station with higher voltage which significantly adds to the cost of the already costly EV.  Am I understanding this correctly, or can an EV recharge fully overnight with just 120V?

120V will add 3-4 miles of range per hour of charging. Perhaps less for really inefficient EVs. So you can pretty easily do the math to decide if that's adequate or not. Even if you run a slight deficit on weekdays, where you're only replenishing maybe 70% of the miles driven each night, you can likely catch back up to full charge on weekends.

So, you can definitely say that 120v is possible with an EV in most cases, and 240V would be "nice to have" for sure but can probably be added when it's convenient rather than being a "must have" that's already in place before purchasing a plug-in vehicle.

We just took a trip from Ohio to Missouri for about 750 miles of travel.   I had not seen any charging stations along the way but perhaps that is just because I am not looking for them.   As I have EVs more and more on my mind I'm trying to observe if the things I do with a car make it reasonable to think an EV would work.   I get over 500 miles on a full tank in our 2015 Sonata (145K miles) but I know EVs are about 200-300 at best.  What's the "magic" distance for an EV to be a full replacement (commuter and long trips) in your opinion and why?  In addition as politicians rail against free chargers, as noted upthread, seems this lack of chargers may get worse not better?

Overall range isn't what really matters. EVs often have lower than rated range at highway speeds anyway. Go to youtube and check some highway range comparisons for an idea. Simply adding larger and larger capacity batteries isn't realistic for the cost and environmental reasons mentioned above. So, for road trips what you actually want is the ability to add range quickly a la a typical liquid fuel stop. Lots of new EVs will tout "the ability to add XXX miles of range in 15 minutes" as more of a headline than overall range now because charging rate slows down significantly at the lower and upper extremes. So you can save time on a road trip by stopping (potentially more frequently) to charge from 20-80% capacity and then getting back on the road vs taking the battery down close to 0% and then charging back close to 100% because the 20-80% charge might take 20 minutes or so while the 0-100% charge might take over an hour on DC fast chargers.

I've gone back a few pages reading mainly Syonyk's posts as I found them extremely informative, so it seems the battery longevity I felt concerned about is realistic.  I think I understood the calendar versus cycle life of the battery talked about.   Now that I work from home I drive much, much less, but that can obviously change if I suddenly need to make a job change, but if it does not seems like the calendar life would be my biggest issue (I drive maybe 5K a year now).

Again, manufacturing and purchasing a new EV with a big, long range battery is incredibly resource and money intensive. That initial hurdle takes 10s of thousands of miles driven to payoff vs a comparable brand new ICE, and it will take even longer compared to keeping a relatively efficient ICE going that you already own. With so little driving, the financial and environmental benefits of the new EV aren't likely to be reached. Shopping used EVs, especially ones with smaller battery packs can really help the cost of ownership calculations for your finances as well as the environment.

I keep waiting for decent EVs to appear in the sub 35K range and seems like 2025 might be it?

As mentioned, there are a handful that are already here. And of course, the used market has even more to choose from if you want to avoid the high upfront financial and environmental costs associated with buying new.

[Paper Chaser]

[

For example, a 400 mile trip will take you a good 7-8 hours of driving.  You could do that in one shot in your Sonata, but do you want to?    You're probably going to want to stop at least once, maybe twice.   You can't do that same trip in one shot in an EV (some EVs, but not most of them), so you'll have stop at least once, maybe twice.  You'll have to stop for longer each time, but not a ton of difference really.  And even if you want to do it in one shot, do you need to?   Is it a capability you need to have?   Maybe for some people, but that has to be a rare, niche case. 

Well I’d go further - it’s not even a question of whether you need to drive >300 miles without stopping, but whether a person ever should.  And a whole bunch of research tells us that’s just a terrible idea. Bad for your muscles, bad for your body, bad for your mental acuity (which in turn makes it bad for everyone around you).  Of course lots of people DO drive multiple hours without stopping, but that doesn’t make it wise.

Eh, we do these types of drives somewhat regularly. It doesn't bother me at all...much prefer to minimize travel time. For example, we drive 600 miles/9 hours each way to visit my brother in Kansas  twice a year. Typically a single <10 minute stop for gas+restroom. I've got no interest in doing that with an EV. I'm not opposed to the idea of owning one, but I would probably rent something else for longer trips.

I know lots of people who do this. We also know its a bad idea. Kind of like texting while driving.

It's also not even saving that much time compared to stopping a couple more times a modern EV. For a 600-mile drive you could stop for 15 minutes at 150, 300, and 450 miles. So roughly 35 minutes extra over those 9 hours. Even less difference if you want to stop to eat anyway during that 9 hour period.

Bjørn Nyland has basically been doing this exact test: see how long it takes to drive 1000 km (621 miles) in an EV. He first tested a hybrid for comparison and it took exactly 9 hours. He did it in a Tesla Model 3 in 9 hours 15-20 minutes. Basically a rounding error. And there are several other EVs that are in that ballpark (and they're only getting better).
Full spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=15442336

And think about how much cumulative time is saved by not having to stop for fuel once per week like most people do, or taking an hour to change the oil in an ICE. People tend to focus on time added to a roadtrip, but they ignore the time saved on the day to day usage. If we were to calculate the actual minutes saved per year, I'd wager the EV comes out comfortably ahead unless the owner is doing long trips constantly.

[lemonlyman]

And think about how much cumulative time is saved by not having to stop for fuel once per week like most people do, or taking an hour to change the oil in an ICE. People tend to focus on time added to a roadtrip, but they ignore the time saved on the day to day usage. If we were to calculate the actual minutes saved per year, I'd wager the EV comes out comfortably ahead unless the owner is doing long trips constantly.

+1

Point not made often enough. Our commutes are managed with 120v overnight charging. I'm considering trading in our other car for a Bolt in January when GM becomes eligible for the new credit.

[Just Joe]

They will also take old batteries but most of us turn in our old vehicle batteries b/c of the core charge at replacement time. Like a bottle deposit.

Yeah... those core charges have gotten a lot more aggressive recently, to my great dismay.  I buy a lot of batteries for new trailer R&D work and builds, and I don't have cores.  Nor will places let you play games like using a little UPS battery as a core for an L16.  So I'm out typically $50-$100 per battery on the core charges, because they're not replacing existing batteries.

I don't mind them for automotive batteries, but, come on.  They're not relevant for standalone solar focused storage batteries!

Ouch!

[Telecaster]

And think about how much cumulative time is saved by not having to stop for fuel once per week like most people do, or taking an hour to change the oil in an ICE. People tend to focus on time added to a roadtrip, but they ignore the time saved on the day to day usage. If we were to calculate the actual minutes saved per year, I'd wager the EV comes out comfortably ahead unless the owner is doing long trips constantly.

+1

Point not made often enough. Our commutes are managed with 120v overnight charging. I'm considering trading in our other car for a Bolt in January when GM becomes eligible for the new credit.

I'll +1 that one as well.  I never realized what a hassle going to the gas station was until I didn't have to do it.  Even if the gas station is on your normal route it is a big time suck.   

[Frugal Lizard]

And think about how much cumulative time is saved by not having to stop for fuel once per week like most people do, or taking an hour to change the oil in an ICE. People tend to focus on time added to a roadtrip, but they ignore the time saved on the day to day usage. If we were to calculate the actual minutes saved per year, I'd wager the EV comes out comfortably ahead unless the owner is doing long trips constantly.

+1

Point not made often enough. Our commutes are managed with 120v overnight charging. I'm considering trading in our other car for a Bolt in January when GM becomes eligible for the new credit.

I'll +1 that one as well.  I never realized what a hassle going to the gas station was until I didn't have to do it.  Even if the gas station is on your normal route it is a big time suck.

Especially where I live.  First time I drove my leaf by a gas station it was just above freezing at dusk and the precipitation was coming down sideways. I was just so happy to keep on driving home and plug in in the comfort of my garage.

[Syonyk]

I'm apparently the only person on the planet who doesn't mind gas station stops... and I put E0 in almost all my stuff...

[Just Joe]

I don't mind it b/c we do so few miles in a weeks time in a reasonably efficient vehicle. If I was a daily commuter driving 40-50 miles each way and buying gas multiple times per week I'd have a much more sour opinion about it.

When our kids were young they were frequently tempted by the contents of the convenience market. Dinner soon or 100 mile trip ahead of us and didn't want to stop twice or three times for potty breaks. I mean an infrequent treat wasn't a problem but we didn't want to start a habit.

I'm a big fan of charging at home when I have one of my employer's EVs. Look forward to owning one eventually but I'm not selling on my perfectly good daily driver that will ought to last us another decade.

[Shane]

They will also take old batteries but most of us turn in our old vehicle batteries b/c of the core charge at replacement time. Like a bottle deposit.

Yeah... those core charges have gotten a lot more aggressive recently, to my great dismay.  I buy a lot of batteries for new trailer R&D work and builds, and I don't have cores.  Nor will places let you play games like using a little UPS battery as a core for an L16.  So I'm out typically $50-$100 per battery on the core charges, because they're not replacing existing batteries.

I don't mind them for automotive batteries, but, come on.  They're not relevant for standalone solar focused storage batteries!

Aren't the core charges meant to encourage people to return batteries for recycling, at the end of their useful lives, rather than just dumping them into a landfill?

[Syonyk]

Aren't the core charges meant to encourage people to return batteries for recycling, at the end of their useful lives, rather than just dumping them into a landfill?

Yes, but the way that they're typically implemented is that you pay the core charge when you buy a new battery, unless you're bringing an old battery in at the same time.  You can, later on, return the old battery for a refund of the core charge (if you swapped batteries in your car).

That works fine for that, but it doesn't work well when you're buying new batteries for a power trailer or off-grid office or such.  If I'm replacing those batteries, I can return the old ones for a core charge, but when I'm building something new, I've nothing to trade in, so it's just a (substantial) additional cost per battery.

Some years back, when I built my office, there wasn't a core charge on the batteries intended for solar installs - I have the T105REs in my office as opposed to the regular T105s, because the -REs didn't have a core charge and as such were about the same cost as the regular T105s plus core charge.

But that's changed, so I'm out a couple hundred per power trailer on core charges I can't get refunded until end of life of the batteries in the trailers... which we're building to sell to other people.  It's a bit silly in that case.

[badger1988]

[

For example, a 400 mile trip will take you a good 7-8 hours of driving.  You could do that in one shot in your Sonata, but do you want to?    You're probably going to want to stop at least once, maybe twice.   You can't do that same trip in one shot in an EV (some EVs, but not most of them), so you'll have stop at least once, maybe twice.  You'll have to stop for longer each time, but not a ton of difference really.  And even if you want to do it in one shot, do you need to?   Is it a capability you need to have?   Maybe for some people, but that has to be a rare, niche case. 

Well I’d go further - it’s not even a question of whether you need to drive >300 miles without stopping, but whether a person ever should.  And a whole bunch of research tells us that’s just a terrible idea. Bad for your muscles, bad for your body, bad for your mental acuity (which in turn makes it bad for everyone around you).  Of course lots of people DO drive multiple hours without stopping, but that doesn’t make it wise.

Eh, we do these types of drives somewhat regularly. It doesn't bother me at all...much prefer to minimize travel time. For example, we drive 600 miles/9 hours each way to visit my brother in Kansas  twice a year. Typically a single <10 minute stop for gas+restroom. I've got no interest in doing that with an EV. I'm not opposed to the idea of owning one, but I would probably rent something else for longer trips.

I know lots of people who do this. We also know its a bad idea. Kind of like texting while driving.

It's also not even saving that much time compared to stopping a couple more times a modern EV. For a 600-mile drive you could stop for 15 minutes at 150, 300, and 450 miles. So roughly 35 minutes extra over those 9 hours. Even less difference if you want to stop to eat anyway during that 9 hour period.

Bjørn Nyland has basically been doing this exact test: see how long it takes to drive 1000 km (621 miles) in an EV. He first tested a hybrid for comparison and it took exactly 9 hours. He did it in a Tesla Model 3 in 9 hours 15-20 minutes. Basically a rounding error. And there are several other EVs that are in that ballpark (and they're only getting better).
Full spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=15442336

And think about how much cumulative time is saved by not having to stop for fuel once per week like most people do, or taking an hour to change the oil in an ICE. People tend to focus on time added to a roadtrip, but they ignore the time saved on the day to day usage. If we were to calculate the actual minutes saved per year, I'd wager the EV comes out comfortably ahead unless the owner is doing long trips constantly.

Not all minutes are created equally. I don't mind stopping for a few minutes every few weeks on my way home from work. Making multiple extra 15+ minute stops with the whole family in tow? I'd rather not.

I'm absolutely interested in owning an EV, and will seriously consider one for my next vehicle purchase. I'd personally be most interested in some type of inexpensive econo-minivanish-EV with a smaller battery and something like 150 mile range, and then just spend the $35/day on a rental for longer trips. I'm hopefully years away from my next vehicle purchase, so haven't put nearly as much thought into the true practicalities and limitations of the various options as many of you have.


I've got a trip coming up this weekend...I'd be genuinely interested in anyone's assessment of how this would look with an EV (route/charging plan, travel time, recommended vehicle, etc.) Maybe my concerns are misplaced.

Trip Plan:

• 6 passengers
• Leave Peoria, IL around 4:30pm after work/school. Dinner at home before leaving
• 450mi drive
• Arrive at destination within Chequamegan National Forest, a few miles north of Loretta, WI in time to roll into bed just before Midnight
• Return trip Monday after lunch w/ a stop for dinner on the road. Home for kids 8:00 bedtime
• *Note: No electricity available at destination*

[Telecaster]

Not all minutes are created equally. I don't mind stopping for a few minutes every few weeks on my way home from work. Making multiple extra 15+ minute stops with the whole family in tow? I'd rather not.

I'm absolutely interested in owning an EV, and will seriously consider one for my next vehicle purchase. I'd personally be most interested in some type of inexpensive econo-minivanish-EV with a smaller battery and something like 150 mile range, and then just spend the $35/day on a rental for longer trips. I'm hopefully years away from my next vehicle purchase, so haven't put nearly as much thought into the true practicalities and limitations of the various options as many of you have.


I've got a trip coming up this weekend...I'd be genuinely interested in anyone's assessment of how this would look with an EV (route/charging plan, travel time, recommended vehicle, etc.) Maybe my concerns are misplaced.

Trip Plan:

• 6 passengers
• Leave Peoria, IL around 4:30pm after work/school. Dinner at home before leaving
• 450mi drive
• Arrive at destination within Chequamegan National Forest, a few miles north of Loretta, WI in time to roll into bed just before Midnight
• Return trip Monday after lunch w/ a stop for dinner on the road. Home for kids 8:00 bedtime
• *Note: No electricity available at destination*

I'd say an EV probably wouldn't work well for this itinerary. 

[Shane]

Aren't the core charges meant to encourage people to return batteries for recycling, at the end of their useful lives, rather than just dumping them into a landfill?

Yes, but the way that they're typically implemented is that you pay the core charge when you buy a new battery, unless you're bringing an old battery in at the same time.  You can, later on, return the old battery for a refund of the core charge (if you swapped batteries in your car).

That works fine for that, but it doesn't work well when you're buying new batteries for a power trailer or off-grid office or such.  If I'm replacing those batteries, I can return the old ones for a core charge, but when I'm building something new, I've nothing to trade in, so it's just a (substantial) additional cost per battery.

Some years back, when I built my office, there wasn't a core charge on the batteries intended for solar installs - I have the T105REs in my office as opposed to the regular T105s, because the -REs didn't have a core charge and as such were about the same cost as the regular T105s plus core charge.

But that's changed, so I'm out a couple hundred per power trailer on core charges I can't get refunded until end of life of the batteries in the trailers... which we're building to sell to other people.  It's a bit silly in that case.

So, why not just pass the core charges on to the customers who buy the trailers from you, and explain to them that they'll get their money back when the batteries inevitably wear out and they exchange them for new ones? Without core charges, batteries end up in landfills or, worse, in a ditch on the side of the road.

[Paper Chaser]

[

For example, a 400 mile trip will take you a good 7-8 hours of driving.  You could do that in one shot in your Sonata, but do you want to?    You're probably going to want to stop at least once, maybe twice.   You can't do that same trip in one shot in an EV (some EVs, but not most of them), so you'll have stop at least once, maybe twice.  You'll have to stop for longer each time, but not a ton of difference really.  And even if you want to do it in one shot, do you need to?   Is it a capability you need to have?   Maybe for some people, but that has to be a rare, niche case. 

Well I’d go further - it’s not even a question of whether you need to drive >300 miles without stopping, but whether a person ever should.  And a whole bunch of research tells us that’s just a terrible idea. Bad for your muscles, bad for your body, bad for your mental acuity (which in turn makes it bad for everyone around you).  Of course lots of people DO drive multiple hours without stopping, but that doesn’t make it wise.

Eh, we do these types of drives somewhat regularly. It doesn't bother me at all...much prefer to minimize travel time. For example, we drive 600 miles/9 hours each way to visit my brother in Kansas  twice a year. Typically a single <10 minute stop for gas+restroom. I've got no interest in doing that with an EV. I'm not opposed to the idea of owning one, but I would probably rent something else for longer trips.

I know lots of people who do this. We also know its a bad idea. Kind of like texting while driving.

It's also not even saving that much time compared to stopping a couple more times a modern EV. For a 600-mile drive you could stop for 15 minutes at 150, 300, and 450 miles. So roughly 35 minutes extra over those 9 hours. Even less difference if you want to stop to eat anyway during that 9 hour period.

Bjørn Nyland has basically been doing this exact test: see how long it takes to drive 1000 km (621 miles) in an EV. He first tested a hybrid for comparison and it took exactly 9 hours. He did it in a Tesla Model 3 in 9 hours 15-20 minutes. Basically a rounding error. And there are several other EVs that are in that ballpark (and they're only getting better).
Full spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=15442336

And think about how much cumulative time is saved by not having to stop for fuel once per week like most people do, or taking an hour to change the oil in an ICE. People tend to focus on time added to a roadtrip, but they ignore the time saved on the day to day usage. If we were to calculate the actual minutes saved per year, I'd wager the EV comes out comfortably ahead unless the owner is doing long trips constantly.

Not all minutes are created equally. I don't mind stopping for a few minutes every few weeks on my way home from work. Making multiple extra 15+ minute stops with the whole family in tow? I'd rather not.

I've got a trip coming up this weekend...I'd be genuinely interested in anyone's assessment of how this would look with an EV (route/charging plan, travel time, recommended vehicle, etc.) Maybe my concerns are misplaced.

Trip Plan:

• 6 passengers
• Leave Peoria, IL around 4:30pm after work/school. Dinner at home before leaving
• 450mi drive
• Arrive at destination within Chequamegan National Forest, a few miles north of Loretta, WI in time to roll into bed just before Midnight
• Return trip Monday after lunch w/ a stop for dinner on the road. Home for kids 8:00 bedtime
• *Note: No electricity available at destination*

The average person isn't stopping for fuel "once every few weeks" though. They're stopping once or twice every week. Even if the gas station requires no diverting or waiting to get to, and there's no line at the pump, and you only swipe, fuel and go it's going to take at least 5min per stop. Nevermind if you have to leave your normal route to get the station, or wait at a stoplight to enter and/or exit the station, or the pumps are slow, etc, etc, etc.  I'd bet an average fueling stop requires closer to 10 minutes when all of the time associated with it is accounted for. That adds up when you're doing it 50-100 times per year like so many do. And yet it's just brushed under the rug, while the road trip time to charge is seemingly this huge obstacle for so many.

As for your trip, going deep into remote locations is always difficult for EVs. Google says it's just over 7hrs straight through with no stopping of any kind, and no traffic. With 6 people on board, I'm guessing there will be at least 3 bathroom stops in a 7hr period. And that's assuming your bodies are synched up better than any 6 humans that I've ever road tripped with. Probably closer to 8hrs of travel time than 7hrs if we're being realistic.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=a162a7ea-54b9-4ee7-801c-699cdef47b77

The EV charging route planner above isn't necessarily optimized. It's my first time using that site, and I'm unfamiliar with the details. I just plugged in the starting point and the closest end point that I could find (Park Falls, WI). It's showing 3 stops for a total of 75min of charging. For some reason, the first stop is just 8 minutes, and charging from 23%->44%, but the second stop is 48 minutes and charging from 10% ->96% state of charge. I'm guessing a big chunk of the 48 minutes spent at stop #2 is due to the slower charging below 20% and above 80%. So I'd think that staying at Stop#1 a bit longer to get more charge there, and arriving at Stop#2 with more than 10% capacity could shave off some total time. You could also leave Stop#2 before hitting 96% charge, and arrive at Stop#3 with something like 30% charge remaining to again reduce the total time spent at Stop#2.

So the actual travel time for the EV probably adds 20-30 minutes to each leg of your trip over ICE. The real world issues are the lack of electricity at your destination (There are currently some Level 2 chargers not too far away that typically add 20-30 miles of range per hour of time charging) , and the lack of EVs available in North America that can haul 6 people and their stuff (pretty much just the Model X, and that might be tight). If you have to pile the stuff on the roof, that's going to shorten range. If the bathroom stops don't overlap with the charging stops, then you're adding time. If the trip happens in the dead of winter, you're losing range.

EVs aren't perfect for everybody all the time. Long road trips to remote locations are definitely an edge case that's better suited to ICEs or hybrids, but that may not necessarily mean that it's impossible in an EV either. To make that trip frequently in an EV, you'd be hoping that with time the charging infrastructure would improve, and so would the availability of large EVs with substantial range.

[GuitarStv]

Google says it's just over 7hrs straight through with no stopping of any kind, and no traffic. With 6 people on board, I'm guessing there will be at least 3 bathroom stops in a 7hr period. And that's assuming your bodies are synched up better than any 6 humans that I've ever road tripped with. Probably closer to 8hrs of travel time than 7hrs if we're being realistic.

I think your numbers are off (or maybe American speed limits are way higher than ours over here).  We lived pretty far into Northern Ontario when I was a kid, and would often take trips down to Toronto for shopping and to visit relatives - it was about 1000 km or 600 miles each way.  The driving time alone would take about 11 hrs.

FWIW, two kids two adults and a dog would usually end up requiring two stops.  One longish (30 min) stop for lunch (because dad refused to let kids eat in his car) and one shorter stop (5-10 min) in the afternoon to pee.

[RWD]

Google says it's just over 7hrs straight through with no stopping of any kind, and no traffic. With 6 people on board, I'm guessing there will be at least 3 bathroom stops in a 7hr period. And that's assuming your bodies are synched up better than any 6 humans that I've ever road tripped with. Probably closer to 8hrs of travel time than 7hrs if we're being realistic.

I think your numbers are off (or maybe American speed limits are way higher than ours over here).  We lived pretty far into Northern Ontario when I was a kid, and would often take trips down to Toronto for shopping and to visit relatives - it was about 1000 km or 600 miles each way.  The driving time alone would take about 11 hrs.

FWIW, two kids two adults and a dog would usually end up requiring two stops.  One longish (30 min) stop for lunch (because dad refused to let kids eat in his car) and one shorter stop (5-10 min) in the afternoon to pee.

1000 km in 11 hours is an average of 91 km/h or 56 mph. Interstate speed limits in the USA typically range from 65 to 80 mph.

[JLee]

Google says it's just over 7hrs straight through with no stopping of any kind, and no traffic. With 6 people on board, I'm guessing there will be at least 3 bathroom stops in a 7hr period. And that's assuming your bodies are synched up better than any 6 humans that I've ever road tripped with. Probably closer to 8hrs of travel time than 7hrs if we're being realistic.

I think your numbers are off (or maybe American speed limits are way higher than ours over here).  We lived pretty far into Northern Ontario when I was a kid, and would often take trips down to Toronto for shopping and to visit relatives - it was about 1000 km or 600 miles each way.  The driving time alone would take about 11 hrs.

FWIW, two kids two adults and a dog would usually end up requiring two stops.  One longish (30 min) stop for lunch (because dad refused to let kids eat in his car) and one shorter stop (5-10 min) in the afternoon to pee.

1000 km in 11 hours is an average of 91 km/h or 56 mph. Interstate speed limits in the USA typically range from 65 to 80 mph.

Limits do, but average speed doesn't.  I guess unless you live in the middle of nowhere where you can actually drive 75mph for 8 hours straight.

[RWD]

Google says it's just over 7hrs straight through with no stopping of any kind, and no traffic. With 6 people on board, I'm guessing there will be at least 3 bathroom stops in a 7hr period. And that's assuming your bodies are synched up better than any 6 humans that I've ever road tripped with. Probably closer to 8hrs of travel time than 7hrs if we're being realistic.

I think your numbers are off (or maybe American speed limits are way higher than ours over here).  We lived pretty far into Northern Ontario when I was a kid, and would often take trips down to Toronto for shopping and to visit relatives - it was about 1000 km or 600 miles each way.  The driving time alone would take about 11 hrs.

FWIW, two kids two adults and a dog would usually end up requiring two stops.  One longish (30 min) stop for lunch (because dad refused to let kids eat in his car) and one shorter stop (5-10 min) in the afternoon to pee.

1000 km in 11 hours is an average of 91 km/h or 56 mph. Interstate speed limits in the USA typically range from 65 to 80 mph.

Limits do, but average speed doesn't.  I guess unless you live in the middle of nowhere where you can actually drive 75mph for 8 hours straight.

I had a moving average of 65 mph over ~400 miles through Illinois four days ago (I-39, I-74, I-57). Stopped three times to charge.

[nereo]

Google says it's just over 7hrs straight through with no stopping of any kind, and no traffic. With 6 people on board, I'm guessing there will be at least 3 bathroom stops in a 7hr period. And that's assuming your bodies are synched up better than any 6 humans that I've ever road tripped with. Probably closer to 8hrs of travel time than 7hrs if we're being realistic.

I think your numbers are off (or maybe American speed limits are way higher than ours over here).  We lived pretty far into Northern Ontario when I was a kid, and would often take trips down to Toronto for shopping and to visit relatives - it was about 1000 km or 600 miles each way.  The driving time alone would take about 11 hrs.

FWIW, two kids two adults and a dog would usually end up requiring two stops.  One longish (30 min) stop for lunch (because dad refused to let kids eat in his car) and one shorter stop (5-10 min) in the afternoon to pee.

1000 km in 11 hours is an average of 91 km/h or 56 mph. Interstate speed limits in the USA typically range from 65 to 80 mph.

Limits do, but average speed doesn't.  I guess unless you live in the middle of nowhere where you can actually drive 75mph for 8 hours straight.

It's really region-specific.  I live in an area where 75mph interstate speed limits are the norm (and the only efficient way of getting from town A to town B), and the flow of traffic is ~90mph (lock your cruise control at 89mph and the state troopers won't give you a passing glance).
When I worked as a Census enumerator and spent most of my time driving I frequently averaged >70 mph, point-to-point, including in-town segments.

There's a whole lotta country out there connect by high-speed interstates...

[Paper Chaser]

Google says it's just over 7hrs straight through with no stopping of any kind, and no traffic. With 6 people on board, I'm guessing there will be at least 3 bathroom stops in a 7hr period. And that's assuming your bodies are synched up better than any 6 humans that I've ever road tripped with. Probably closer to 8hrs of travel time than 7hrs if we're being realistic.

I think your numbers are off (or maybe American speed limits are way higher than ours over here).  We lived pretty far into Northern Ontario when I was a kid, and would often take trips down to Toronto for shopping and to visit relatives - it was about 1000 km or 600 miles each way.  The driving time alone would take about 11 hrs.

FWIW, two kids two adults and a dog would usually end up requiring two stops.  One longish (30 min) stop for lunch (because dad refused to let kids eat in his car) and one shorter stop (5-10 min) in the afternoon to pee.

The Google estimate seems to align with badger1988's timeline pretty well. They're planning on leaving between 4:30-5:00pm and arriving at their destination between 11:30pm-12:00am. That's 450 miles in ~7hrs (average 64mph).

[JLee]

Google says it's just over 7hrs straight through with no stopping of any kind, and no traffic. With 6 people on board, I'm guessing there will be at least 3 bathroom stops in a 7hr period. And that's assuming your bodies are synched up better than any 6 humans that I've ever road tripped with. Probably closer to 8hrs of travel time than 7hrs if we're being realistic.

I think your numbers are off (or maybe American speed limits are way higher than ours over here).  We lived pretty far into Northern Ontario when I was a kid, and would often take trips down to Toronto for shopping and to visit relatives - it was about 1000 km or 600 miles each way.  The driving time alone would take about 11 hrs.

FWIW, two kids two adults and a dog would usually end up requiring two stops.  One longish (30 min) stop for lunch (because dad refused to let kids eat in his car) and one shorter stop (5-10 min) in the afternoon to pee.

1000 km in 11 hours is an average of 91 km/h or 56 mph. Interstate speed limits in the USA typically range from 65 to 80 mph.

Limits do, but average speed doesn't.  I guess unless you live in the middle of nowhere where you can actually drive 75mph for 8 hours straight.

It's really region-specific.  I live in an area where 75mph interstate speed limits are the norm (and the only efficient way of getting from town A to town B), and the flow of traffic is ~90mph (lock your cruise control at 89mph and the state troopers won't give you a passing glance).
When I worked as a Census enumerator and spent most of my time driving I frequently averaged >70 mph, point-to-point, including in-town segments.

There's a whole lotta country out there connect by high-speed interstates...

Yeah, sometimes I forget that the east coast is special in that regard.  I did a cross country (AZ to NJ) trip once and the first time I hit any traffic to speak of was ~20 minutes from home in NJ...

[Syonyk]

So, why not just pass the core charges on to the customers who buy the trailers from you, and explain to them that they'll get their money back when the batteries inevitably wear out and they exchange them for new ones? Without core charges, batteries end up in landfills or, worse, in a ditch on the side of the road.

That's what we're doing, it's just a bit pointless for new builds.

If you have to pile the stuff on the roof, that's going to shorten range.

Rear rack, not roof rack!  I can't tell the difference in energy use on the Volt with the rear rack installed or not.

I think your numbers are off (or maybe American speed limits are way higher than ours over here).

I'm out west, and if I head east, it's 85mph speed limits for... well, until we turn off the interstate and take our preferred back roads, mostly.

[caracarn]

Thank you, thank you, everyone for your lengthy and thoughtful replies!  They are helpful to give me some thoughts when/if the time comes.

First a new question before comments.   I have always been leery of buying an EV used because I've heard that if they did not charge it well and just the life of batteries and such that you could have a very sub-optimal experience.  Thoughts?

Comments relating to responses.

Right now our road trip process would not fit with what is suggested with EVs.   My wife like to get the drive over with and many times I'm fighting a bit to stop even at 250 miles.   In essence unless we need to have a bathroom break she'd rather just go.   So that usually means 4-6 hour stretches between stops.   We also then will work to get fuel/bathroom/food stops done at the same time to minimize stops.   It's possible for an EV (which she if very pro for.  She drives a Prius now, 2011 which we bought used in 2017) she might change that stance but every 150 miles?  It seems a big move for her, but she might surprise me.   For this last trip for example, we left about 6 AM, did not stop until about 11:30 to eat lunch and fuel.   It was fast food so perhaps 15-20 minutes.   Then we stopped at about 3:30 next for bathroom and snacks, so perhaps 15 minutes.   Then made it to our destination at 6:30 (there was time change in there so was really 7:30).  That would not have worked with an EV.    She was OK with that trip.   When we head down to Disney (which will happen less now that kids are grown) we leave at 2-3 AM and arrive late the same day so between 16-20 hours of travel depending on stops.

The daily commute needs at least 60 miles round trip and if there are more stops (different students each day of the week) could be more but probably never more than 100.   So it seems that the 120V would not be an option.   Not sure what all the costs would be to get the 240V service added etc.  I can work with electricity in the house, wiring up ceiling fans, changing switches, outlets, etc. but for something like this I do not have the knowledge to even know what I don't know.   I know our current service is 100A not 200A that you see in some homes, so I assume I'd at minimum need electric company to expand that and would need to research those costs with them. 

This is not an imminent thing for us.   I'm hoping to make it to at least 2025 with my existing car to over 200K miles perhaps, but will likely stick with it until it dies and the cost to repair exceeds the cost to continue.  I figured that would allow the newer models to be introduced, be tested in real world conditions and it can help me make a better decision, but it seems that it is not going to be a cost savings no matter what so I'd have to justify the move based on lifestyle, climate impact, etc. from what everyone says.

Thanks again!  Will be following this thread as much as I can (it has a LOT of posts daily) and will chime in when I can.

[RWD]

First a new question before comments.   I have always been leery of buying an EV used because I've heard that if they did not charge it well and just the life of batteries and such that you could have a very sub-optimal experience.  Thoughts?

Are you referring to battery degradation? That was really only an issue for the Nissan LEAF with its passively cooled battery. Basically a non-issue. Current batteries are warrantied for at least 8 years/100k miles and are expected to last 15-20 years/200k+ miles. Tesla is also talking about a million-mile battery, so this stuff is only getting better.

Relevant link:
https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/

[nereo]

Right now our road trip process would not fit with what is suggested with EVs.   My wife like to get the drive over with and many times I'm fighting a bit to stop even at 250 miles.   In essence unless we need to have a bathroom break she'd rather just go.   So that usually means 4-6 hour stretches between stops.   We also then will work to get fuel/bathroom/food stops done at the same time to minimize stops.   It's possible for an EV (which she if very pro for.  She drives a Prius now, 2011 which we bought used in 2017) she might change that stance but every 150 miles?  It seems a big move for her, but she might surprise me.   For this last trip for example, we left about 6 AM, did not stop until about 11:30 to eat lunch and fuel.   It was fast food so perhaps 15-20 minutes.   Then we stopped at about 3:30 next for bathroom and snacks, so perhaps 15 minutes.   Then made it to our destination at 6:30 (there was time change in there so was really 7:30).  That would not have worked with an EV.    She was OK with that trip.   When we head down to Disney (which will happen less now that kids are grown) we leave at 2-3 AM and arrive late the same day so between 16-20 hours of travel depending on stops.

If you (or your wife) is absolutely set on having this kind of long-haul, 600+ mile road trip with no wiggle room to fast-charge along the way, then no, current EVs won't meet that need. But since you seem to want to stop a bit more frequently, having an EV might force that issue.

To give you one example of what that might look like, a VW ID.4 will give you 250+ miles of range in non-freezing weather (rated for 275, so some cushion there for highway speeds).  It can give you an additional 200+ miles of range with a 150kw DC fast charger in 38 minutes.   Planning on two stops of ~45 minutes each you could easily cover 600 miles.  That would be 3.5 hours of driving, break, 2 hours of driving, break, and then arrive at your destination a couple hours later.  Total travel time of 9 hours.  It wouldn't meet your 16+ hour marathon trip to Disney, but such a trip could be done (maybe) if you are willing to take 4 breaks (breakfast/lunch/dinner and one more?). TBH if that were me I'd want an ICE vehicle (rental?) - but that also sounds like a terrible idea to me regardless, and my back would be screwed up for days afterward.

A better question here might be how frequently do you need to take these marathon drives, and will you allow that to determine your vehicle selection.

The daily commute needs at least 60 miles round trip and if there are more stops (different students each day of the week) could be more but probably never more than 100.   So it seems that the 120V would not be an option.   Not sure what all the costs would be to get the 240V service added etc.  I can work with electricity in the house, wiring up ceiling fans, changing switches, outlets, etc. but for something like this I do not have the knowledge to even know what I don't know.   I know our current service is 100A not 200A that you see in some homes, so I assume I'd at minimum need electric company to expand that and would need to research those costs with them. 

Installation depends on what you buy, and most people are coerced into buying much more than they need or want for home charging. Consider whether you really need (or want) a 'smart' EV charger with a snazzy interface and phone app, or if you just want to plug your car in and have it charge.  hint:  every EV I know about has built-in charge management so you can schedule charging during non-peak hours anyhow,  (making this 'feature' of most smart chargers entirely redundant).  'Smart' EV chargers also require a solid WiFI signal and many (most?) will sell your data as part of the package, which you may or may not be ok with.

 You can buy a L2, 240v charger for around $350 off Amazon. If you are even remotely handy you use a 12awg (or 10awg) extension cord and swap out the plug.  For the installation, all you need is the circuit and receptacle. The installation is however much a certified electrician will charge you for installing a 30, 40 or 50amp circuit, which depends greatly on your location, your existing panel and service, and how far and how complicated a run it is.  If it's a short run from your panel to your garage (or outside) I'd expect to pay between $300-500 for the installation, including the breaker.  If your code requires AFGI breakers those can cost $120, a short run of wire is under $100, and the equipment is $350 or so.  The rest is just a few hours labor. 

100 amp is more than sufficient to add a charger to most homes. You might not want to put in a 50amp charger, but that's overkill for almost everyone and certainly for your commuting habits.  A 30amp (7.2kw) home charger will add 15-20 miles per hour of charging.  Plug it in for just 6 hours and you're going to replenish even your 100 mile days with ease.

This is not an imminent thing for us.   I'm hoping to make it to at least 2025 with my existing car to over 200K miles perhaps, but will likely stick with it until it dies and the cost to repair exceeds the cost to continue.  I figured that would allow the newer models to be introduced, be tested in real world conditions and it can help me make a better decision, but it seems that it is not going to be a cost savings no matter what so I'd have to justify the move based on lifestyle, climate impact, etc. from what everyone says.

Well you probably just want to check back and see in a couple of years if you aren't going to buy one now.  Two things which seem to keep improving are DC charge times and the (often expensive) options for ever larger battery packs. Also, the number of DC fast chargers is growing exponentially right now. A few years ago the most juice typical EVs could take was 50kw.  now a number will go 125kW (and Teslas at 150kW).  There are some cars that claim they will be able to charge at 350kW in the coming years, which in theory could add 300+ miles to an extra-large battery pack in the 20 minute range, IF they can figure out how not to blow the entire pack up during the process. Likewise, there are a few groups claiming they can reconfigure existing chargers to go from 20% to 80% (roughly 150 miles) in about 10 minutes. 

For now the existing range and charging infrastructure is more than sufficient for >95% of drivers.  but you sound like an extreme outlier - someone who does 16 hour road trips and won't compromise on breaks or distance. It is what it is.

[Syonyk]

Buy a used Gen 2 Volt, put a 20A 240V circuit for charging in, and you cover all your use cases on a good bit less fuel than you burn now.

[BicycleB]

On a different track, hopefully still part of the overall picture, Aptera has opened a new round of funding. As before, open to ordinary non-accredited investors.

The goal is still to bring out vehicle that minimizes charging by having very high efficiency even though only a fraction of buyers will choose this form of vehicle. Article below gives overview.

https://electrek.co/2022/08/31/aptera-reopens-investments-1000-mile-range-solar-electric-vehicle-production/

Aptera site states minimum investment $1000. Share price for this round $10.50 (last round was $9.20).
https://invest.aptera.us/

[PathtoFIRE]

Aptera site states minimum investment $1000. Share price for this round $10.50 (last round was $9.20).
https://invest.aptera.us/

I remember you mentioning this a little while back, congrats on your 14.1% return (so far)! Interesting company, might check one out at the EV car show here in San Diego in 2 weeks.

[badger1988]

[

For example, a 400 mile trip will take you a good 7-8 hours of driving.  You could do that in one shot in your Sonata, but do you want to?    You're probably going to want to stop at least once, maybe twice.   You can't do that same trip in one shot in an EV (some EVs, but not most of them), so you'll have stop at least once, maybe twice.  You'll have to stop for longer each time, but not a ton of difference really.  And even if you want to do it in one shot, do you need to?   Is it a capability you need to have?   Maybe for some people, but that has to be a rare, niche case. 

Well I’d go further - it’s not even a question of whether you need to drive >300 miles without stopping, but whether a person ever should.  And a whole bunch of research tells us that’s just a terrible idea. Bad for your muscles, bad for your body, bad for your mental acuity (which in turn makes it bad for everyone around you).  Of course lots of people DO drive multiple hours without stopping, but that doesn’t make it wise.

Eh, we do these types of drives somewhat regularly. It doesn't bother me at all...much prefer to minimize travel time. For example, we drive 600 miles/9 hours each way to visit my brother in Kansas  twice a year. Typically a single <10 minute stop for gas+restroom. I've got no interest in doing that with an EV. I'm not opposed to the idea of owning one, but I would probably rent something else for longer trips.

I know lots of people who do this. We also know its a bad idea. Kind of like texting while driving.

It's also not even saving that much time compared to stopping a couple more times a modern EV. For a 600-mile drive you could stop for 15 minutes at 150, 300, and 450 miles. So roughly 35 minutes extra over those 9 hours. Even less difference if you want to stop to eat anyway during that 9 hour period.

Bjørn Nyland has basically been doing this exact test: see how long it takes to drive 1000 km (621 miles) in an EV. He first tested a hybrid for comparison and it took exactly 9 hours. He did it in a Tesla Model 3 in 9 hours 15-20 minutes. Basically a rounding error. And there are several other EVs that are in that ballpark (and they're only getting better).
Full spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1V6ucyFGKWuSQzvI8lMzvvWJHrBS82echMVJH37kwgjE/edit#gid=15442336

And think about how much cumulative time is saved by not having to stop for fuel once per week like most people do, or taking an hour to change the oil in an ICE. People tend to focus on time added to a roadtrip, but they ignore the time saved on the day to day usage. If we were to calculate the actual minutes saved per year, I'd wager the EV comes out comfortably ahead unless the owner is doing long trips constantly.

Not all minutes are created equally. I don't mind stopping for a few minutes every few weeks on my way home from work. Making multiple extra 15+ minute stops with the whole family in tow? I'd rather not.

I've got a trip coming up this weekend...I'd be genuinely interested in anyone's assessment of how this would look with an EV (route/charging plan, travel time, recommended vehicle, etc.) Maybe my concerns are misplaced.

Trip Plan:

• 6 passengers
• Leave Peoria, IL around 4:30pm after work/school. Dinner at home before leaving
• 450mi drive
• Arrive at destination within Chequamegan National Forest, a few miles north of Loretta, WI in time to roll into bed just before Midnight
• Return trip Monday after lunch w/ a stop for dinner on the road. Home for kids 8:00 bedtime
• *Note: No electricity available at destination*

The average person isn't stopping for fuel "once every few weeks" though. They're stopping once or twice every week. Even if the gas station requires no diverting or waiting to get to, and there's no line at the pump, and you only swipe, fuel and go it's going to take at least 5min per stop. Nevermind if you have to leave your normal route to get the station, or wait at a stoplight to enter and/or exit the station, or the pumps are slow, etc, etc, etc.  I'd bet an average fueling stop requires closer to 10 minutes when all of the time associated with it is accounted for. That adds up when you're doing it 50-100 times per year like so many do. And yet it's just brushed under the rug, while the road trip time to charge is seemingly this huge obstacle for so many.

As for your trip, going deep into remote locations is always difficult for EVs. Google says it's just over 7hrs straight through with no stopping of any kind, and no traffic. With 6 people on board, I'm guessing there will be at least 3 bathroom stops in a 7hr period. And that's assuming your bodies are synched up better than any 6 humans that I've ever road tripped with. Probably closer to 8hrs of travel time than 7hrs if we're being realistic.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=a162a7ea-54b9-4ee7-801c-699cdef47b77

The EV charging route planner above isn't necessarily optimized. It's my first time using that site, and I'm unfamiliar with the details. I just plugged in the starting point and the closest end point that I could find (Park Falls, WI). It's showing 3 stops for a total of 75min of charging. For some reason, the first stop is just 8 minutes, and charging from 23%->44%, but the second stop is 48 minutes and charging from 10% ->96% state of charge. I'm guessing a big chunk of the 48 minutes spent at stop #2 is due to the slower charging below 20% and above 80%. So I'd think that staying at Stop#1 a bit longer to get more charge there, and arriving at Stop#2 with more than 10% capacity could shave off some total time. You could also leave Stop#2 before hitting 96% charge, and arrive at Stop#3 with something like 30% charge remaining to again reduce the total time spent at Stop#2.

So the actual travel time for the EV probably adds 20-30 minutes to each leg of your trip over ICE. The real world issues are the lack of electricity at your destination (There are currently some Level 2 chargers not too far away that typically add 20-30 miles of range per hour of time charging) , and the lack of EVs available in North America that can haul 6 people and their stuff (pretty much just the Model X, and that might be tight). If you have to pile the stuff on the roof, that's going to shorten range. If the bathroom stops don't overlap with the charging stops, then you're adding time. If the trip happens in the dead of winter, you're losing range.

EVs aren't perfect for everybody all the time. Long road trips to remote locations are definitely an edge case that's better suited to ICEs or hybrids, but that may not necessarily mean that it's impossible in an EV either. To make that trip frequently in an EV, you'd be hoping that with time the charging infrastructure would improve, and so would the availability of large EVs with substantial range.

One bathroom stop is par for the course on this trip for us. There's a reason I like to start in the evening...I drive and everyone else sleeps most of the way.

That ABRP site is really neat, thanks for pointing me to it! I played around a bit using my actual start/end points, and made it a round trip to account for lack of charging at destination:

Chrysler T&C (Baseline)

• Seats: 7
• Distance: 918mi
• Driving time: 14h38m
• Stops: 2
• Stop time: 30m
• Total travel time: 15h8m

Tesla Model X - Long Range

• Seats: 7
• Distance: 986mi (+68mi)
• Driving time: 16h19m (+1h41m)
• Stops: 4 (+2)
• Stop time: 2h30m (+2h)
• Total travel time: 18h49m (+3h41m)

Rivian R1S - Large Pack

• Seats: 7
• Distance: 990mi (+72mi)
• Driving time: 16h37m (+1h59m)
• Stops: 5 (+3)
• Stop time: 3h1m (+2h31m)
• Total travel time: 19h38m (+4h30m)

Ford F150 Lightning - Long Range

• Seats: 5 (-1 MIL)
• Distance: 991mi (+73mi)
• Driving time: 16h45m (+2h7m)
• Stops: 6 (+4)
• Stop time: 3h18m (+2h48m)
• Total travel time: 20h4m (+4h56m)

Ford F150 Lightning - Standard Range

• Seats: 5 (-1 MIL)
• Distance: 1028mi (+110mi)
• Driving time: 18h28m (+3h50m)
• Stops: 9 (+7)
• Stop time: 6h33m (+6h3m)
• Total travel time: 25h2m (+9h54m)

Nissan Leaf - 2nd Gen

• Seats: 5 (-1 MIL)
• Distance: 1294mi (+376mi)
• Driving time: 25h59m (+11h21m)
• Stops: 20 (+18)
• Stop time: 8h17m (+7h47m)
• Total travel time: 34h17m (+19h9m)

Nissan Leaf - 1st Gen

• "No valid plan found"

[Abe]

We have two electric cars now, and honestly haven’t had any issues at all with getting close to running out of power. Yes, if you are going to a rural area it’s a bit of a logistics game. I have zero desire to ever drive anywhere long distance, but when we’ve done so, we like to take frequent breaks. I’d be surprised if hotels don’t collaborate with charging companies to have sites at their parking lots. One or two I’ve stayed at already did.