Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[Just Joe]

In practice, there is a real market for commuter cars that work well in cities but don’t really get used in extreme conditions.

Neither the Bolt or Leaf are great road-trip cars. But it’s easy to forget that the Bolt was selling around 80k per year before it was discontinued, and there were more Leaf’s on the road than any other EV until relatively recently (it sold in modest volumes, but over many years).
...

A European friend of mine relocated to Houston and bought a BMW i3, thinking he would live a European lifestyle and scoot around the city in his teensy electric car.  A couple scary trips on Houston interstates cured him of that.  He said the car was terrifying and was difficult to control above 50mph, nearly wrecking a couple times.  He kept it to city streets after that and eventually sold it.


https://www.speakev.com/threads/bmw-i3-unsteady-at-speeds-over-50mph.170456/

I didn't feel that way at all. I drove an i3 REX on a day trip once at speeds ranging from 45 mph to 70 mph. I thought it was a nice car. Unconventional styling aside, I wouldn't consider it only b/c it is a BMW product. Most BMWs are nice to drive, nice to look at, and our BMW owning friends really like their cars. However both BMWs they owned needed engine replacements despite being used in ordinary ways (i.e. not track vehicles).

I don't think I'm rich enough to afford BMW dealership service or parts. ;)

As a concept I think the BMW i3 REX is a great solution from an engineering perspective. It did fine with one person on board on relatively flat surfaces. Might be different in the Rocky Mtns or coping with New England winter weather. My day trip was ~50F and raining part of the day.

[Just Joe]

Just a little post to say - I'm loving having an EV daily driver. We don't charge every day. Pointless due to the range of the battery.

Takes about 5 seconds to plug in or unplug when we are coming and going.

Car is smooth and quiet. The car's technology is good. It took a little learning of the menus to find all the settings important to us. What shows on the screens by default type of stuff.

Last night accessed the hidden "engineering menu" to switch off the telematics. The forums taught me how to do this. Involves a tap sequence at a spot on the screen where there are two hidden buttons. We're not using the Hyundai app to interact with the car in any way. No reason for Hyundai to see what we do with the car. I'm ordering my Nexis Lexis report this week out of general curiosity. A friend calls it a "insurance credit report". Apparently free.   

Now if it will last 150K+ miles we'll be ecstatic. See you back here in a decade or more with an update: ;)

[RWD]

Just a little post to say - I'm loving having an EV daily driver. We don't charge every day. Pointless due to the range of the battery.

We charge ours once a week. Typically plug it in after our weekly grocery trip.

[NorCal]

Just a little post to say - I'm loving having an EV daily driver. We don't charge every day. Pointless due to the range of the battery.

Takes about 5 seconds to plug in or unplug when we are coming and going.

Car is smooth and quiet. The car's technology is good. It took a little learning of the menus to find all the settings important to us. What shows on the screens by default type of stuff.

Last night accessed the hidden "engineering menu" to switch off the telematics. The forums taught me how to do this. Involves a tap sequence at a spot on the screen where there are two hidden buttons. We're not using the Hyundai app to interact with the car in any way. No reason for Hyundai to see what we do with the car. I'm ordering my Nexis Lexis report this week out of general curiosity. A friend calls it a "insurance credit report". Apparently free.   

Now if it will last 150K+ miles we'll be ecstatic. See you back here in a decade or more with an update: ;)

Glad you're enjoying it!

Just don't forget that some EV models do need a coolant change every 100kish miles (varies by model).  I don't know if yours is one of those models, but I can see it being easy to forget. 

[mizzourah2006]

I usually plug it in every day, but don't typically charge it more than a few times a week. I also like to keep it between 50-80% if I can. But if I look at my charging history over the past month I've spent $9 to charge 181 kWh. So that would be equivalent to about ~720 miles for $9. I will caveat this by saying that my gym has free charging, so about 50% of that is free this past month.

[Just Joe]

Just a little post to say - I'm loving having an EV daily driver. We don't charge every day. Pointless due to the range of the battery.

Takes about 5 seconds to plug in or unplug when we are coming and going.

Car is smooth and quiet. The car's technology is good. It took a little learning of the menus to find all the settings important to us. What shows on the screens by default type of stuff.

Last night accessed the hidden "engineering menu" to switch off the telematics. The forums taught me how to do this. Involves a tap sequence at a spot on the screen where there are two hidden buttons. We're not using the Hyundai app to interact with the car in any way. No reason for Hyundai to see what we do with the car. I'm ordering my Nexis Lexis report this week out of general curiosity. A friend calls it a "insurance credit report". Apparently free.   

Now if it will last 150K+ miles we'll be ecstatic. See you back here in a decade or more with an update: ;)

Glad you're enjoying it!

Just don't forget that some EV models do need a coolant change every 100kish miles (varies by model).  I don't know if yours is one of those models, but I can see it being easy to forget.

Yes, I think our's needs a coolant change maybe even earlier than 100K miles. I ordered the special 70W oil and a giant syringe to change the gear reduction unit oil in the next week or two.

Received OEM floor mats that I ordered from Canada yesterday. $57 plus $15 shipping for OEM rubber mats vs $150+ for carpeted mats from an American OEM supplier vs $300+ from the lock dealer. 

Also installed laser cut rubber sheets that line the bottom of the cup holder, door panel pockets, etc. That was ~$20 online. Nice color coordinating pinstripe on the edge of the rubber liners. Quietens down thing slike house keys or other things we might put in the door pockets or in the console tray.   

That's the nice thing about an vehicle sold internationally - lots of low cost upgrades.

Waiting for permanent license plates and need to install a L2 charger. L1 is fine except today we're making a day trip to another part of the state to see family. I was down to ~60%. Overnight I might have picked up 10-15% on L1. If we had a L2 charger I could have charged to 100% (prefer 70-80% for day to day) and made the trip on one charge. That's okay.

[Just Joe]

We drove our EV on a ~200+ mile trip to see DW's family yesterday. Plenty of range for the destination and return trip. Nearby fast charger if we needed to recharge.

<delete long play by play of day EV trip>

TLDR: sudden unexpected change of itinerary, charger desert on whole one side of metro, fast charger on map that didn't really exist, nice EA chargers ~20 mile drive each way that I used, why does one of the largest metros in the state lack chargers away from the interstate, why does in car NAV on a three year old car list chargers that haven't existed in years? Why not offer in-car OpenStreet Maps, they'd be more current, Crystal clear why Android Auto and Apple Car Play is so important. You need charger apps that show current maps. Saw a Fisker Ocean on the highway.

Want to coax America into driving EVs? Put L3 chargers at more shopping areas away from the interstate. That'll help. Pick a commonly a nationally known big box retailer or franchise. Target? Lowes? WalMart? Publix? Starbucks?

Put x2 L3 charger with space and capacity to easily expand at each location.   

Still very happy with the car but can see why the average person would avoid them. Most people want easy not charging adventures.

[LennStar]

Why not offer in-car OpenStreet Maps,

OpenStreetMap does not pay for getting on your car.

Also there is that cancer called creative commons license. Car maker might need to release code from the integration that would benefit their competitiors. Can't have that!!!

[NorCal]

Why not offer in-car OpenStreet Maps,

OpenStreetMap does not pay for getting on your car.

Also there is that cancer called creative commons license. Car maker might need to release code from the integration that would benefit their competitiors. Can't have that!!!

Rivian uses some combination of OpenStreetMap, ABRP (which they acquired), and proprietary tech.  I think they also have some limited use of Google routing.  I'm not sophisticated enough to understand where the lines between the underlying technologies is.

But Rivian does get lots of complaints about OpenStreetMap.  It's a thousand times better than anything that existed a decade ago, but it's not up to par with Google/Waze/Apple.  It does give some odd routes, and some destinations are misplaced on the map enough to give you bad info on where you're going.

[alsoknownasDean]

Kinda surprised Microsoft aren't trying to get Bing maps in cars... although I wonder if it's in Ford Sync?

They try and force their services into everything else!

Is payment at DCFC still only via app? Surely a card reader makes sense, especially for people renting an EV.

I still get emails from the charging operators I signed up for when I rented an EV in October.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[EchoStache]

We drove our EV on a ~200+ mile trip to see DW's family yesterday. Plenty of range for the destination and return trip. Nearby fast charger if we needed to recharge.

<delete long play by play of day EV trip>

TLDR: sudden unexpected change of itinerary, charger desert on whole one side of metro, fast charger on map that didn't really exist, nice EA chargers ~20 mile drive each way that I used, why does one of the largest metros in the state lack chargers away from the interstate, why does in car NAV on a three year old car list chargers that haven't existed in years? Why not offer in-car OpenStreet Maps, they'd be more current, Crystal clear why Android Auto and Apple Car Play is so important. You need charger apps that show current maps. Saw a Fisker Ocean on the highway.

Want to coax America into driving EVs? Put L3 chargers at more shopping areas away from the interstate. That'll help. Pick a commonly a nationally known big box retailer or franchise. Target? Lowes? WalMart? Publix? Starbucks?

Put x2 L3 charger with space and capacity to easily expand at each location.   

Still very happy with the car but can see why the average person would avoid them. Most people want easy not charging adventures.

   I would not buy an EV that does not have full access to the NACS network *AND* flawless integration into the cars navigation software.  I would also discourage anyone from buying an EV that does not have that capability.  If you aren't buying a Tesla, you are 100% buying a drastically inferior product.  I say that because with an EV, a vast, reliable, fast charging network with 99% uptime and flawless integration into the software of the car is absolutely a feature of the car itself, in essence.  We owned a Kia Niro EV for 2 years.  Just sold it to Carvana.  It just doesn't work well for long trips.

[AccidentialMustache]

Kinda surprised Microsoft aren't trying to get Bing maps in cars... although I wonder if it's in Ford Sync?

The current (MME, Lightning) Ford Sync 4a is Garmin and maybe Telenav? At least for now, the next version will be Google.

[Just Joe]

Is payment at DCFC still only via app? Surely a card reader makes sense, especially for people renting an EV.

The EA chargers I've used recently did. Don't know if they universally work. I'd guess weather is pretty rough on card reader equipment. NFC probably works well but I haven't tried it.

[Just Joe]

I would not buy an EV that does not have full access to the NACS network *AND* flawless integration into the cars navigation software.

Hyundai and Kia get Tesla charger access early next year I read. Haven't spent any time digging any deeper. Simple adapter required that supposedly Hyundai will provide. At some cost for used Hyundai owners I'd guess.

[Just Joe]

Why not offer in-car OpenStreet Maps,

OpenStreetMap does not pay for getting on your car.

Also there is that cancer called creative commons license. Car maker might need to release code from the integration that would benefit their competitiors. Can't have that!!!

Dadgum communist hippy software!!! ;)

[EchoStache]

I would not buy an EV that does not have full access to the NACS network *AND* flawless integration into the cars navigation software.

Hyundai and Kia get Tesla charger access early next year I read. Haven't spent any time digging any deeper. Simple adapter required that supposedly Hyundai will provide. At some cost for used Hyundai owners I'd guess.

Yep, that's the soonest I'd consider a non Tesla, and I'd still want to see what *actually* happens in terms of whether all cars get full access to every charger or only partial access, and how well are things integrated into the software of the car.  I don't think DCFC ever need to become as common as gas stations(as it doesn't need to be since 95% of charging is at home), so accurate, user friendly in car navigation to the nearest charger is important.

I suspect other cars won't get full access.  From the Tesla website:

"Many Supercharging stalls will be accessible to other electric vehicle drivers in North America through the Tesla app and adapters provided by your vehicle manufacturer."

Many is pretty vague.  50?  100? 500?  25%? 80%?.....Edit...see bottom of post.

Our Kia Niro that we just got rid of was basically useless as far as navigating to a fast charger with in car software.  We had to rely on a third party app on our cell phone.

So I'm curious how good of a job legacy will do in this aspect even with NACS ports built into the cars.  Most legacy cars I've seen do a pretty horrible job with their infotainment screens.  We are renting a pretty new VW Golf on vacation and the infotainment is literally horrible, slow, and impossible to use without basically pulling over to do *anything* or just not look at the road at all for a while just to try to change HVAC settings.

Edit: found the numbers:

27,000+ stalls for Tesla
15,000+ stalls for NACS(non Tesla with NACS in 2025)...about 55%.  Common sense says NACS cars aren't getting access to busiest locations.  Wouldn't make sense to add congestion to already busy sites.  Regardless, this is a HUGE step forward for non Tesla's.
500+ stalls for other EVs.  I assume this is Magic Dock for CCS cars.

[geekette]

We really enjoy our '23 Niro EV, but we just don't road trip much at all.  We still have 467kWh of free EA charging that will probably never get used (used once before our EVSE was installed).  Too bad I can't just sign it over to @Just Joe!

eta: some of the early Tesla chargers don't have cables long enough to reach many vehicles.  I don't know how long it'll take to swap those out.

[NorCal]

I would not buy an EV that does not have full access to the NACS network *AND* flawless integration into the cars navigation software.

Hyundai and Kia get Tesla charger access early next year I read. Haven't spent any time digging any deeper. Simple adapter required that supposedly Hyundai will provide. At some cost for used Hyundai owners I'd guess.

Yep, that's the soonest I'd consider a non Tesla, and I'd still want to see what *actually* happens in terms of whether all cars get full access to every charger or only partial access, and how well are things integrated into the software of the car.  I don't think DCFC ever need to become as common as gas stations(as it doesn't need to be since 95% of charging is at home), so accurate, user friendly in car navigation to the nearest charger is important.

I suspect other cars won't get full access.  From the Tesla website:

"Many Supercharging stalls will be accessible to other electric vehicle drivers in North America through the Tesla app and adapters provided by your vehicle manufacturer."

Many is pretty vague.  50?  100? 500?  25%? 80%?.....Edit...see bottom of post.

Our Kia Niro that we just got rid of was basically useless as far as navigating to a fast charger with in car software.  We had to rely on a third party app on our cell phone.

So I'm curious how good of a job legacy will do in this aspect even with NACS ports built into the cars.  Most legacy cars I've seen do a pretty horrible job with their infotainment screens.  We are renting a pretty new VW Golf on vacation and the infotainment is literally horrible, slow, and impossible to use without basically pulling over to do *anything* or just not look at the road at all for a while just to try to change HVAC settings.

Edit: found the numbers:

27,000+ stalls for Tesla
15,000+ stalls for NACS(non Tesla with NACS in 2025)...about 55%.  Common sense says NACS cars aren't getting access to busiest locations.  Wouldn't make sense to add congestion to already busy sites.  Regardless, this is a HUGE step forward for non Tesla's.
500+ stalls for other EVs.  I assume this is Magic Dock for CCS cars.

I've been following this pretty closely, as I theoretically get an adapter in the next few months.

Access to the Supercharger network is pretty big, but it's more psychological than anything else.  The utility of it varies heavily by where you live.  It adds nearly zero value to my common road trip routes, although it adds some options with better amenities.  It will mostly help in urban areas with lots of charger congestion.

Here's a link to the supercharger map:  https://www.tesla.com/NACS

Here's the short story:

1. "Magic Dock" stations have a built in adapter and can already charge CCS cars.  I've tried it.  It works well.  You find these on Tesla's map under "Superchargers open to other EV's".  I'm relying on one of these in an upcoming trip to Moab.  There's not a lot of these, but they seem to have prioritized critical charging deserts. 

2. V1/V2 Superchargers: These are the older chargers that will never be compatible with the NACS standards.  Unfortunately, most of the chargers that would matter to me (Wyoming and South Dakota) fall into this category.

3. NACS compatible chargers: These are the chargers that will open up to everyone else.  They seem to be mostly concentrated in corridors that already have decent charging infrastructure.  At least in Colorado and Utah.  It looks like it will open up a lot on the east coast though.

The non-Tesla networks have improved a lot in the last year though.  Their reputation hasn't caught up yet, but they are actually a lot better.  I've become comfortable with relying on various EA & Chargepoint options. 

[Just Joe]

We are renting a pretty new VW Golf on vacation and the infotainment is literally horrible, slow, and impossible to use without basically pulling over to do *anything* or just not look at the road at all for a while just to try to change HVAC settings.

That is part of the reason we chose a Kona. More buttons, less touchscreen. I think the Kona will be fine for our needs as long as I have a 3rd party app for the search of chargers. Our adventures are generally to the same areas so it will be easy to find and remember good chargers i.e. favorite music venues in the metros closest to us, favorite restaurants near that, shopping, etc.

Generally speaking when we go to metro #1 it is to see family and we stay with them. When we go to metro #2, we go for an evening of entertainment or a mall trip (rare).

[Just Joe]

We really enjoy our '23 Niro EV, but we just don't road trip much at all.  We still have 467kWh of free EA charging that will probably never get used (used once before our EVSE was installed).  Too bad I can't just sign it over to @Just Joe!

eta: some of the early Tesla chargers don't have cables long enough to reach many vehicles.  I don't know how long it'll take to swap those out.

Thanks for thinking of us Geekette!

[Just Joe]

Saw a comment on another website about the price of EVs and ICEVs:

"Well, a Honda Civic can be purchased for $25K. That's alot cheaper than an EV!"

The come back:

"Bear in mind that the Civic requires a gasoline subscription..."

[AlanStache]

Saw a comment on another website about the price of EVs and ICEVs:

"Well, a Honda Civic can be purchased for $25K. That's alot cheaper than an EV!"

The come back:

"Bear in mind that the Civic requires a gasoline subscription..."

Aptera has entered the chat.

[Just Joe]

Has Aptera reached retail sales yet? Seems like it has been a prototype for a decade... Interesting design for sure.

[NorCal]

Has Aptera reached retail sales yet? Seems like it has been a prototype for a decade... Interesting design for sure.

I like the idea of Aptera, but the companies finances are a mess and it seems unlikely they can raise the capital to scale.

[pecunia]

Saw a comment on another website about the price of EVs and ICEVs:

"Well, a Honda Civic can be purchased for $25K. That's alot cheaper than an EV!"

The come back:

"Bear in mind that the Civic requires a gasoline subscription..."

What do you get for that subscription?

Figure $5 / gallon for gas and 25 miles per gallon.  Let's say the electric vehicle is $5,000 more.  (Subscription Fee)

$5,000 / $5/gallon = $1,000 gallons

1,000 gallons X 25 miles / gallon = 25,000 miles

The subscription gives you a year or two of driving.  After that maybe the EV would have been better.

[Tyson]

You can get a used Model 3 for $19k here, so it's not even expensive to buy up front.  Plus little/no maintenance because there's no engine and the brakes last forever.  If you can charge at home, it's also 5x less expensive to drive, per mile.

[Paper Chaser]

You can get a used Model 3 for $19k here, so it's not even expensive to buy up front.  Plus little/no maintenance because there's no engine and the brakes last forever.  If you can charge at home, it's also 5x less expensive to drive, per mile.

Charging at home is great for convenience and costs. But in many states, EVs are charged registration fees to offset the lack of fuel/road tax they pay for skipping the gas station. These annual fees can be hundreds of dollars, which can erase or even eclipse any cost benefit of reduced maintenance.

https://insideevs.com/features/721229/states-electric-car-fees/

Insurance rates vary of course, but the general trend seems to be that EVs have higher rates than ICEs so that cost should be considered as well.

[LennStar]

But in many states, EVs are charged registration fees to offset the lack of fuel/road tax they pay for skipping the gas station. These annual fees can be hundreds of dollars, which can erase or even eclipse any cost benefit of reduced maintenance.

Do you also still believe the Coca Cola colored guy with the long white beard brings you little toy cars at christmas?
Let me guess, this bill came from someone from Texas?

Though I have to admit that it seems you don't have a tax on electricity? I only found tax on gas/diesel/kerosene and internal waterway's fuel? Funny that last one.

[Paper Chaser]

But in many states, EVs are charged registration fees to offset the lack of fuel/road tax they pay for skipping the gas station. These annual fees can be hundreds of dollars, which can erase or even eclipse any cost benefit of reduced maintenance.

Do you also still believe the Coca Cola colored guy with the long white beard brings you little toy cars at christmas?
Let me guess, this bill came from someone from Texas?

Though I have to admit that it seems you don't have a tax on electricity? I only found tax on gas/diesel/kerosene and internal waterway's fuel? Funny that last one.

Not sure what your larger point is. In the US, there is a State and a Federal tax added to each gallon of fuel purchased. Those taxes are supposed to contribute to infrastructure/road maintenance. Electricity is not taxed.

As vehicles get more fuel efficient (or in the case of EVs use no fuel at all) the funding for road maintenance has to come from other sources. To retain some of that lost revenue, many states have chosen to make EV owners pay a flat fee each year so that they're not using roads without contributing to their upkeep. There are at least 32 states that currently have an extra EV fee, and that number is likely to grow in the coming years.

If we're thinking about a "gasoline subscription" with an ICE, we also need to consider the "Electricty + extra registration fees + (potentially) higher insurance" subscription that often comes with EVs. There is no free lunch. Traveling around in private motor coaches will always have a cost associated with it. The only sure fire way to reduce transportation costs is to drive less.

[reeshau]

But in many states, EVs are charged registration fees to offset the lack of fuel/road tax they pay for skipping the gas station. These annual fees can be hundreds of dollars, which can erase or even eclipse any cost benefit of reduced maintenance.

Do you also still believe the Coca Cola colored guy with the long white beard brings you little toy cars at christmas?
Let me guess, this bill came from someone from Texas?

Though I have to admit that it seems you don't have a tax on electricity? I only found tax on gas/diesel/kerosene and internal waterway's fuel? Funny that last one.

Not sure what your larger point is. In the US, there is a State and a Federal tax added to each gallon of fuel purchased. Those taxes are supposed to contribute to infrastructure/road maintenance. Electricity is not taxed.

As vehicles get more fuel efficient (or in the case of EVs use no fuel at all) the funding for road maintenance has to come from other sources. To retain some of that lost revenue, many states have chosen to make EV owners pay a flat fee each year so that they're not using roads without contributing to their upkeep. There are at least 32 states that currently have an extra EV fee, and that number is likely to grow in the coming years.

If we're thinking about a "gasoline subscription" with an ICE, we also need to consider the "Electricty + extra registration fees + (potentially) higher insurance" subscription that often comes with EVs. There is no free lunch. Traveling around in private motor coaches will always have a cost associated with it. The only sure fire way to reduce transportation costs is to drive less.

Texas is the 33rd US State to add a surcharge for EV registration:

https://www.ncsl.org/energy/special-fees-on-plug-in-hybrid-and-electric-vehicles

[GuitarStv]

As vehicles get more fuel efficient (or in the case of EVs use no fuel at all) the funding for road maintenance has to come from other sources. To retain some of that lost revenue, many states have chosen to make EV owners pay a flat fee each year so that they're not using roads without contributing to their upkeep. There are at least 32 states that currently have an extra EV fee, and that number is likely to grow in the coming years.

My understanding is that road maintenance fees from fuel taxes and tolls haven't come anywhere near to covering the costs of maintaining the roads for decades now.  Most of the fees are coming from other taxation now anyway, so it seems weird to suddenly try to shift all the burden on drivers of electric vehicles when ICE drivers haven't been paying their fair share.

[Just Joe]

You can get a used Model 3 for $19k here, so it's not even expensive to buy up front.  Plus little/no maintenance because there's no engine and the brakes last forever.  If you can charge at home, it's also 5x less expensive to drive, per mile.

Charging at home is great for convenience and costs. But in many states, EVs are charged registration fees to offset the lack of fuel/road tax they pay for skipping the gas station. These annual fees can be hundreds of dollars, which can erase or even eclipse any cost benefit of reduced maintenance.

https://insideevs.com/features/721229/states-electric-car-fees/

Insurance rates vary of course, but the general trend seems to be that EVs have higher rates than ICEs so that cost should be considered as well.

Yep my state hit us with a $200 registration fee. Subtract the normal fee and we still paid ~$150. However comparing the EV tax vs gas tax, it looks like it is similar to driving about 10,000 miles assuming I can math properly.

EVs are still not a home run choice IMHO. There are many potential expensive pitfalls but then - a modern ICEV does too.

I think EV ownership will be more affordable once independent EV repair shops pop up that aren't just dealer style parts swappers at dealer prices. We'll need shops that can break the battery down and repair it at the cell level or repair the inverter circuits or whatever needs to be done.

Pick something with a good warranty if you go EV shopping.At least the Leaf has a solid following of independent shops and tinkerers. if our Kona ever has an out of warranty failure that I can't repair, I'll put it on a trailer and drag it to one of the independent EV shops out of state if necessary. I'm a good parts swapper but I'm not a good miniature circuits tech.

[JLee]

You can get a used Model 3 for $19k here, so it's not even expensive to buy up front.  Plus little/no maintenance because there's no engine and the brakes last forever.  If you can charge at home, it's also 5x less expensive to drive, per mile.

Charging at home is great for convenience and costs. But in many states, EVs are charged registration fees to offset the lack of fuel/road tax they pay for skipping the gas station. These annual fees can be hundreds of dollars, which can erase or even eclipse any cost benefit of reduced maintenance.

https://insideevs.com/features/721229/states-electric-car-fees/

Insurance rates vary of course, but the general trend seems to be that EVs have higher rates than ICEs so that cost should be considered as well.

Yep my state hit us with a $200 registration fee. Subtract the normal fee and we still paid ~$150. However comparing the EV tax vs gas tax, it looks like it is similar to driving about 10,000 miles assuming I can math properly.

EVs are still not a home run choice IMHO. There are many potential expensive pitfalls but then - a modern ICEV does too.

I think EV ownership will be more affordable once independent EV repair shops pop up that aren't just dealer style parts swappers at dealer prices. We'll need shops that can break the battery down and repair it at the cell level or repair the inverter circuits or whatever needs to be done.

Pick something with a good warranty if you go EV shopping.At least the Leaf has a solid following of independent shops and tinkerers. if our Kona ever has an out of warranty failure that I can't repair, I'll put it on a trailer and drag it to one of the independent EV shops out of state if necessary. I'm a good parts swapper but I'm not a good miniature circuits tech.

The federally mandated minimum battery warranty is 8 years / 100k miles.

[sonofsven]

As vehicles get more fuel efficient (or in the case of EVs use no fuel at all) the funding for road maintenance has to come from other sources. To retain some of that lost revenue, many states have chosen to make EV owners pay a flat fee each year so that they're not using roads without contributing to their upkeep. There are at least 32 states that currently have an extra EV fee, and that number is likely to grow in the coming years.

My understanding is that road maintenance fees from fuel taxes and tolls haven't come anywhere near to covering the costs of maintaining the roads for decades now.  Most of the fees are coming from other taxation now anyway, so it seems weird to suddenly try to shift all the burden on drivers of electric vehicles when ICE drivers haven't been paying their fair share.

And the biggest driver of actual road maintenance costs in many areas are big trucks and buses; commercial users.

[geekette]

I think EV ownership will be more affordable once independent EV repair shops pop up that aren't just dealer style parts swappers at dealer prices. We'll need shops that can break the battery down and repair it at the cell level or repair the inverter circuits or whatever needs to be done.

Pick something with a good warranty if you go EV shopping.At least the Leaf has a solid following of independent shops and tinkerers. if our Kona ever has an out of warranty failure that I can't repair, I'll put it on a trailer and drag it to one of the independent EV shops out of state if necessary. I'm a good parts swapper but I'm not a good miniature circuits tech.

A friend has an older sub-100 mile Fiat 500e.  I don't know if you're anywhere near NC, but she highly recommends Matt's Auto Shop in Garner (just outside Raleigh) for EV repair.

[Paper Chaser]

As vehicles get more fuel efficient (or in the case of EVs use no fuel at all) the funding for road maintenance has to come from other sources. To retain some of that lost revenue, many states have chosen to make EV owners pay a flat fee each year so that they're not using roads without contributing to their upkeep. There are at least 32 states that currently have an extra EV fee, and that number is likely to grow in the coming years.

My understanding is that road maintenance fees from fuel taxes and tolls haven't come anywhere near to covering the costs of maintaining the roads for decades now.  Most of the fees are coming from other taxation now anyway, so it seems weird to suddenly try to shift all the burden on drivers of electric vehicles when ICE drivers haven't been paying their fair share.

I don't think they're trying to shift all of the burden to EV owners. Most government data that I can find in a short search indicates the average fuel economy of a light duty vehicle in the US is around 24-26mpg currently. And an average driver travels 14-15k miles per year. So lets ballpark the average driver seeing 25mpg for 15k miles to make the math easier. That's 600 gallons of fuel per year.
Fuel taxes by state:


Looks like the average state tax on a gallon of gas is probably between $0.15-0.20/gal. So the state gas tax collected for the average driver in the average vehicle is $90-120/yr. If we include the federal fuel tax as well, then the average tax on a gallon of gasoline moves to something around $0.35/gal and total taxes for the average driver/vehicle would be $210/yr.

This map is a year old now, but it gives an idea of the EV fees being charged, and it seems like for the most part they're in the ballpark of what fuel taxes would be for an average driver in an average vehicle:

[Paper Chaser]

As vehicles get more fuel efficient (or in the case of EVs use no fuel at all) the funding for road maintenance has to come from other sources. To retain some of that lost revenue, many states have chosen to make EV owners pay a flat fee each year so that they're not using roads without contributing to their upkeep. There are at least 32 states that currently have an extra EV fee, and that number is likely to grow in the coming years.

My understanding is that road maintenance fees from fuel taxes and tolls haven't come anywhere near to covering the costs of maintaining the roads for decades now.  Most of the fees are coming from other taxation now anyway, so it seems weird to suddenly try to shift all the burden on drivers of electric vehicles when ICE drivers haven't been paying their fair share.

And the biggest driver of actual road maintenance costs in many areas are big trucks and buses; commercial users.

These vehicle also pay the most in fuel taxes because they consume a ton of fuel, and diesel is taxed at higher rates than gasoline.

[LennStar]

These vehicle also pay the most in fuel taxes because they consume a ton of fuel, and diesel is taxed at higher rates than gasoline.

You also need less diesel than gasoline.

[nereo]

These vehicle also pay the most in fuel taxes because they consume a ton of fuel, and diesel is taxed at higher rates than gasoline.

You also need less diesel than gasoline.

Federal tax on diesel is higher than on unleaded gasoline for this very reason.

[GilesMM]

NPR reported today on a lady who bought a Nissan Leaf for $652 after incentives.  Not bad for a Leaf, or any car, for that matter.

https://www.cpr.org/2024/05/30/boulder-resident-bought-affordable-used-electric-vehicle/

[GilesMM]

These vehicle also pay the most in fuel taxes because they consume a ton of fuel, and diesel is taxed at higher rates than gasoline.

You also need less diesel than gasoline.

Voters don't directly purchase diesel, so it is easier to tax - less outcry.  But all your goods are transported using diesel, so you are indirectly paying that tax as well.

[nereo]

These vehicle also pay the most in fuel taxes because they consume a ton of fuel, and diesel is taxed at higher rates than gasoline.

You also need less diesel than gasoline.

Voters don't directly purchase diesel, so it is easier to tax - less outcry.

What??!! A sizeable chunk of people drive diesel trucks, particularly in rural land

[GilesMM]

These vehicle also pay the most in fuel taxes because they consume a ton of fuel, and diesel is taxed at higher rates than gasoline.

You also need less diesel than gasoline.

Voters don't directly purchase diesel, so it is easier to tax - less outcry.

What??!! A sizeable chunk of people drive diesel trucks, particularly in rural land

While it may sometimes feel like everyone is buying diesels, they only account for about 2% of market share. Even pickups struggle to hit 10% diesel share. Easier to tax that than the other 90% of drivers.  Rural types can save on off road diesel.

[nereo]

These vehicle also pay the most in fuel taxes because they consume a ton of fuel, and diesel is taxed at higher rates than gasoline.

You also need less diesel than gasoline.

Voters don't directly purchase diesel, so it is easier to tax - less outcry.

What??!! A sizeable chunk of people drive diesel trucks, particularly in rural land

While it may sometimes feel like everyone is buying diesels, they only account for about 2% of market share. Even pickups struggle to hit 10% diesel share. Easier to tax that than the other 90% of drivers.  Rural types can save on off road diesel.

Your statement still makes no sense. People who buy diesel vote, including all those trucks. The federal fuel tax hasn’t changed in over a quarter century (for either gasoline or diesel) but notably both are taxed.
As we’ve discussed in another thread you cannot legally put off-road diesel into your pickup, and in at least some areas they will check.

[GuitarStv]

As vehicles get more fuel efficient (or in the case of EVs use no fuel at all) the funding for road maintenance has to come from other sources. To retain some of that lost revenue, many states have chosen to make EV owners pay a flat fee each year so that they're not using roads without contributing to their upkeep. There are at least 32 states that currently have an extra EV fee, and that number is likely to grow in the coming years.

My understanding is that road maintenance fees from fuel taxes and tolls haven't come anywhere near to covering the costs of maintaining the roads for decades now.  Most of the fees are coming from other taxation now anyway, so it seems weird to suddenly try to shift all the burden on drivers of electric vehicles when ICE drivers haven't been paying their fair share.

I don't think they're trying to shift all of the burden to EV owners. Most government data that I can find in a short search indicates the average fuel economy of a light duty vehicle in the US is around 24-26mpg currently. And an average driver travels 14-15k miles per year. So lets ballpark the average driver seeing 25mpg for 15k miles to make the math easier. That's 600 gallons of fuel per year.
Fuel taxes by state:


Looks like the average state tax on a gallon of gas is probably between $0.15-0.20/gal. So the state gas tax collected for the average driver in the average vehicle is $90-120/yr. If we include the federal fuel tax as well, then the average tax on a gallon of gasoline moves to something around $0.35/gal and total taxes for the average driver/vehicle would be $210/yr.

This map is a year old now, but it gives an idea of the EV fees being charged, and it seems like for the most part they're in the ballpark of what fuel taxes would be for an average driver in an average vehicle:

You didn't include the actual cost of maintaining the road infrastructure though.  That's important:

In 2021, state and local motor fuel tax revenue ($53 billion) accounted for 26 percent of highway and road spending, while toll facilities and other street construction and repair fees ($20 billion) provided another 10 percent.

- https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cross-center-initiatives/state-and-local-finance-initiative/state-and-local-backgrounders/highway-and-road-expenditures

The vast majority of the cost of maintaining roads isn't borne by gas taxes (even combining gasoline and diesel).

[Paper Chaser]

As vehicles get more fuel efficient (or in the case of EVs use no fuel at all) the funding for road maintenance has to come from other sources. To retain some of that lost revenue, many states have chosen to make EV owners pay a flat fee each year so that they're not using roads without contributing to their upkeep. There are at least 32 states that currently have an extra EV fee, and that number is likely to grow in the coming years.

My understanding is that road maintenance fees from fuel taxes and tolls haven't come anywhere near to covering the costs of maintaining the roads for decades now.  Most of the fees are coming from other taxation now anyway, so it seems weird to suddenly try to shift all the burden on drivers of electric vehicles when ICE drivers haven't been paying their fair share.

I don't think they're trying to shift all of the burden to EV owners. Most government data that I can find in a short search indicates the average fuel economy of a light duty vehicle in the US is around 24-26mpg currently. And an average driver travels 14-15k miles per year. So lets ballpark the average driver seeing 25mpg for 15k miles to make the math easier. That's 600 gallons of fuel per year.
Fuel taxes by state:

Looks like the average state tax on a gallon of gas is probably between $0.15-0.20/gal. So the state gas tax collected for the average driver in the average vehicle is $90-120/yr. If we include the federal fuel tax as well, then the average tax on a gallon of gasoline moves to something around $0.35/gal and total taxes for the average driver/vehicle would be $210/yr.

This map is a year old now, but it gives an idea of the EV fees being charged, and it seems like for the most part they're in the ballpark of what fuel taxes would be for an average driver in an average vehicle:

You didn't include the actual cost of maintaining the road infrastructure though.  That's important:

In 2021, state and local motor fuel tax revenue ($53 billion) accounted for 26 percent of highway and road spending, while toll facilities and other street construction and repair fees ($20 billion) provided another 10 percent.

- https://www.urban.org/policy-centers/cross-center-initiatives/state-and-local-finance-initiative/state-and-local-backgrounders/highway-and-road-expenditures

The vast majority of the cost of maintaining roads isn't borne by gas taxes (even combining gasoline and diesel).

I think there may be some confusion because I never suggested that ALL of the costs for roads come from fuel taxes. In my post that you originally replied to, you edited an important section out. I said "In the US, there is a State and a Federal tax added to each gallon of fuel purchased. Those taxes are supposed to contribute to infrastructure/road maintenance."

Emphasis added. The road tax funds have been raided for other uses for a long time. That's nothing new.

My larger point was that EV registration fees are often added to be something sort of equivalent to what an average ICE would pay in fuel taxes. It's not an arbitrary number that's selected to punish EV owners or make them pay more than other vehicle owners. And when those fees are added back in, a good bit of the financial benefit of an EV can be eroded. If the EV has higher insurance costs, then the benefit is reduced further. And if a person has to do lots of expensive public charging instead of charging at home, then the numbers get even worse for the EV owners.

EV ownership math is incredibly dependent on location and usage. Moreso than comparable calculations with an ICE. About the only EV benefit that is pretty universal is the lack of tailpipe emissions, which improves local air quality. Climate benefits, financial benefits, etc are all highly dependent on a ton of factors unique to each vehicle, location and usage.

[Taran Wanderer]

Our state has been studying a per-mile tax with the idea of replacing the gas/diesel tax.  Basically it would multiple weight x mileage and tax vehicles that way.  Drive more?  Pay more.  Heavier?  Pay more.  (No word on whether they’ll double or triple the tax for studded snow tires, but that’s off-topic anyway…). The big downside of this is the civil liberties issue.  The way they’re proposing to charge this is via GPS tracking.  I’m not particularly interested in having my car GPS tracked, though I guess it’s already happening via car navigation systems and/or my phone.

If they can make this more fair, it will be a good thing. Then maybe they can lower the registration fee on my dump trailer that sits in my driveway most of the year, travels maybe 250 miles per year, and has a registration fee not much different than my car.  But again, that’s another story.

[Raenia]

Our state has been studying a per-mile tax with the idea of replacing the gas/diesel tax.  Basically it would multiple weight x mileage and tax vehicles that way.  Drive more?  Pay more.  Heavier?  Pay more.  (No word on whether they’ll double or triple the tax for studded snow tires, but that’s off-topic anyway…). The big downside of this is the civil liberties issue.  The way they’re proposing to charge this is via GPS tracking.  I’m not particularly interested in having my car GPS tracked, though I guess it’s already happening via car navigation systems and/or my phone.

If they can make this more fair, it will be a good thing. Then maybe they can lower the registration fee on my dump trailer that sits in my driveway most of the year, travels maybe 250 miles per year, and has a registration fee not much different than my car.  But again, that’s another story.

My state has floated this idea as well, and I'm very much in favor. But, importantly, here it would not require GPS tracking, We have annual safety/emissions inspections, so a mileage tax would just add a line to the inspection for the mechanic to verify the mileage.

[Tyson]

Mileage tax seems a lot more reasonable than a GPS tracking approach.

[TheGrimSqueaker]

There's one aspect to getting an electric car that makes me very, very reluctant to commit to one. That's the charging station situation. Because of the Sherman Anti-Trust Act there's enough momentum behind separate, competitive gasoline providing. Not so in EV charging. Now that Sherman has been basically gutted, the economy and legal system have become much more monopoly-friendly. I'm aware that EV charging is one industry that's very attractive to private equity, and that's a recipe for price gouging.

In my experience, every time I have to interact with a monopoly-controlled service provider or product, I end up paying way more and getting way less because of the price gouging that invariably results. Absent effective anti-trust law, it seems to me to be a bad idea to paint myself into a corner to the point where I end up forced to do business with a monopoly. It just doesn't seem like effective money management, to me, to set myself up for that. It's bad enough to have to endure price-gouging in times of shortage or natural disaster; I don't believe I have the right to set myself and my family up to experience it when times are, well, normal.