Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[Cranky]

Car colors are white, grey or black for the same reason that everybody’s new floors are grey. Neutrals are perceived as increasing resale value (and in used cars neutrals do actually sell for more.)

I have been pleased to see a number of tangerine orange cars lately, though.

[geekette]

Drove that 99 miles to a tiny dealership and picked up the blue Kia Niro EV.  So! Much! Tech! 

I'm hopeful we won't regret the purchase, but so far, it's nice to drive, even if absolutely no new car seats are as comfortable as our old Chevy HHR's seats.  Why is that?

[RWD]

Drove that 99 miles to a tiny dealership and picked up the blue Kia Niro EV.  So! Much! Tech! 

I'm hopeful we won't regret the purchase, but so far, it's nice to drive, even if absolutely no new car seats are as comfortable as our old Chevy HHR's seats.  Why is that?

Congrats! I've heard good things about the Niro.

I suspect crash regulations have contributed to less comfortable seats, but I don't have a source for that.

[pecunia]

Drove that 99 miles to a tiny dealership and picked up the blue Kia Niro EV.  So! Much! Tech! 

I'm hopeful we won't regret the purchase, but so far, it's nice to drive, even if absolutely no new car seats are as comfortable as our old Chevy HHR's seats.  Why is that?

Maybe the HHR was just cool like the PT Cruiser.  You felt good in it.  The Plymouth Prowler and Chevies SSR was cool too.  I suspect as EVs begin to truly proliferate, some of these car companies will begin to style them to distinguish them from the pack.  I believe car styling is at a bit of a standstill right now as companies struggle to make the shift to electric drivetrains.

[AccidentialMustache]

I can't speak to the niro or chevy, but I find the Mach E's seats very comfortable. Of course, for that price range they better be luxury reclining lay-z-boys.

[neo von retorch]

Finally, an electric truck big enough for Americans!

https://thedriven.io/2023/06/23/bhp-says-battery-electric-cheaper-than-hydrogen-as-it-dumps-diesel-for-haul-trucks/

with tyres taller than the average person, are the size of a modest two-storey house and carry ore loads between 220 and 400 tonnes⁰

⁰ https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/monster-movers-bhp-tests-electric-trucks-the-size-of-two-storey-house-20230526-p5dbjb.html

[BuffaloStache]

I thoroughly enjoyed reading those articles. Thanks, Neo!

Related, one of the linked articles has a great explanation on why Battery-EV vehicles have significant advantages over Hydrogen powered ones: https://thedriven.io/2023/02/10/the-madness-of-big-autos-push-for-hydrogen-powered-cars/ . I'll admit the article is a little self-servicing in that it assumes we already have the infrastructure to capture renewable electricity and transport it directly into EVs (and "end state" if you will), and also it neglects the concept of "direct-burn" hydrogen cars (I once test drove a BMW hybrid* that used both gasoline and hydrogen burned in the same engine block, for example). But I think the general premise still holds true.

[dandarc]

Finally, an electric truck big enough for Americans!

https://thedriven.io/2023/06/23/bhp-says-battery-electric-cheaper-than-hydrogen-as-it-dumps-diesel-for-haul-trucks/

with tyres taller than the average person, are the size of a modest two-storey house and carry ore loads between 220 and 400 tonnes⁰

⁰ https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/monster-movers-bhp-tests-electric-trucks-the-size-of-two-storey-house-20230526-p5dbjb.html

A lot of those gigantic mining trucks - even the ones that use diesel - already have electric drive trains. Because you need that massive torque to get the thing to move - often its a diesel generator powering electric motors.

[nereo]

Finally, an electric truck big enough for Americans!

https://thedriven.io/2023/06/23/bhp-says-battery-electric-cheaper-than-hydrogen-as-it-dumps-diesel-for-haul-trucks/

with tyres taller than the average person, are the size of a modest two-storey house and carry ore loads between 220 and 400 tonnes⁰

⁰ https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/monster-movers-bhp-tests-electric-trucks-the-size-of-two-storey-house-20230526-p5dbjb.html

A lot of those gigantic mining trucks - even the ones that use diesel - already have electric drive trains. Because you need that massive torque to get the thing to move - often its a diesel generator powering electric motors.

Most omodern cean-going vessels work this way too, including all of the Navy's newest and biggest non-nuclear ships.

[JLee]

Finally, an electric truck big enough for Americans!

https://thedriven.io/2023/06/23/bhp-says-battery-electric-cheaper-than-hydrogen-as-it-dumps-diesel-for-haul-trucks/

with tyres taller than the average person, are the size of a modest two-storey house and carry ore loads between 220 and 400 tonnes⁰

⁰ https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/monster-movers-bhp-tests-electric-trucks-the-size-of-two-storey-house-20230526-p5dbjb.html

A lot of those gigantic mining trucks - even the ones that use diesel - already have electric drive trains. Because you need that massive torque to get the thing to move - often its a diesel generator powering electric motors.

That reminds me of this story, which I find super neat:  https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124478_world-s-largest-ev-never-has-to-be-recharged

[geekette]

Can we talk Level 2 chargers here?  While we probably won't actually need one, our local power company is paying up to $1100 to get the electrical work done.  Hey, I'll take free (assuming it won't cost more than that).  We have a 200 amp panel with a 30 amp breaker that's currently unused (and turned off). 

Is a 30 amp circuit sufficient?  Any recommended chargers? 

[Dancin'Dog]

Can we talk Level 2 chargers here?  While we probably won't actually need one, our local power company is paying up to $1100 to get the electrical work done.  Hey, I'll take free (assuming it won't cost more than that).  We have a 200 amp panel with a 30 amp breaker that's currently unused (and turned off). 

Is a 30 amp circuit sufficient?  Any recommended chargers?

Is the 30 amp circuit wired to your garage?  If not, you'll need to run a wire from the panel to your garage.  If that's the case you can simply swap out the breaker to whatever amp rating is required. 


I don't know anything about Level 2 chargers, but a quick search shows that you'd need 40-60 amps. 

[RWD]

Is a 30 amp circuit sufficient?  Any recommended chargers?

I don't know anything about Level 2 chargers, but a quick search shows that you'd need 40-60 amps.

30 amps is perfectly sufficient. That's already 4x faster than a standard 120V/15A plug. You can pull a sustained 5.76 kW which will recharge most batteries overnight (if you are getting an F-150 Lightning you should probably consider something beefier).

[geekette]

The panel is in the garage, about 12" from where we want to hang the charger.  I don't think anything is wired to that turned off breaker since it's labeled "spare".

The car's a Kia Niro, with about a 65 kWh battery.

Looking on Amazon, wall charges range from sub $200 to almost $700.  We don't want to burn down the house, so I was hoping for some recommendations on chargers.  I think thatthis one (Emporia brand), which was recommended by Car & Driver, can be set for a 30amp circuit (or 40 or 50), but would I just be paying for extra capacity I wouldn't be able to use?  Are there good brands that are just for 30amp circuits? 

We have an electrician coming tomorrow; I'm trying to get an idea of what we want/need.

[nereo]

The panel is in the garage, about 12" from where we want to hang the charger.  I don't think anything is wired to that turned off breaker since it's labeled "spare".

The car's a Kia Niro, with about a 65 kWh battery.

Looking on Amazon, wall charges range from sub $200 to almost $700.  We don't want to burn down the house, so I was hoping for some recommendations on chargers.  I think thatthis one (Emporia brand), which was recommended by Car & Driver, can be set for a 30amp circuit (or 40 or 50), but would I just be paying for extra capacity I wouldn't be able to use?  Are there good brands that are just for 30amp circuits? 

We have an electrician coming tomorrow; I'm trying to get an idea of what we want/need.

We went with a Grizzl*e charger, in part because it’s robust (good for installing outdoors) and for its 24’ plug that coils well even in cold weather. We’ve been very happy with it (so much do that I bought two more for my workplace when we installed EV charging).  The casing is all metal and seems like it could take several direct hits with a baseball line drive. It also has a DIP switch so you can select 30/40/50 amp circuits.

With chargers a lot of the more expensive options come “smart”, allowing you to start/stop/monitor charging. All fine and good but most cars also have apps that will preform similar functions. Buying a smart charger may or may not be useful to you.

Also, I agree with RWD - 30 amp is more than sufficient for overnight recharging a 65kw*h battery pack.

[sonofsven]

Can we talk Level 2 chargers here?  While we probably won't actually need one, our local power company is paying up to $1100 to get the electrical work done.  Hey, I'll take free (assuming it won't cost more than that).  We have a 200 amp panel with a 30 amp breaker that's currently unused (and turned off). 

Is a 30 amp circuit sufficient?  Any recommended chargers?

I pre-wired a box in the garage for a future electric car charger in the last home I built on a 50a circuit, recommended by my electrician.

[AccidentialMustache]

If the panel is nearby it doesn't matter. If you're pulling a longer run, pull 50 or 60 amps.

Someday, the first person to have two EVs to charge will thank you for it.

[Dancin'Dog]

The panel is in the garage, about 12" from where we want to hang the charger.  I don't think anything is wired to that turned off breaker since it's labeled "spare".

The car's a Kia Niro, with about a 65 kWh battery.

Looking on Amazon, wall charges range from sub $200 to almost $700.  We don't want to burn down the house, so I was hoping for some recommendations on chargers.  I think thatthis one (Emporia brand), which was recommended by Car & Driver, can be set for a 30amp circuit (or 40 or 50), but would I just be paying for extra capacity I wouldn't be able to use?  Are there good brands that are just for 30amp circuits? 
We have an electrician coming tomorrow; I'm trying to get an idea of what we want/need.

If that's the case you should install a larger breaker because it won't cost much more.  That will allow you to use a larger charger if you ever want to.  It would also come in handy if you ever need to use it for a welder or an air compressor. 

[JLee]

Hard wire your chargers too -- if you don't, make sure your electrician installs an industrial / heavy duty outlet (Hubbell/etc).

The Home Depot grade ones can melt under sustained load - this is (was) mine:



My chargers are now hardwired.  FWIW I have two Emporia L2 chargers and have been happy with them - you can configure their charge rate in their app, so if you have limited power available you can move things around as desired.  I have a 60 amp service to my garage and we have two EVs, so if I'm going on a work trip or something I'll turn my charge rate way down so the other charger is faster.

[pecunia]

The panel is in the garage, about 12" from where we want to hang the charger.  I don't think anything is wired to that turned off breaker since it's labeled "spare".

The car's a Kia Niro, with about a 65 kWh battery.

Looking on Amazon, wall charges range from sub $200 to almost $700.  We don't want to burn down the house, so I was hoping for some recommendations on chargers.  I think thatthis one (Emporia brand), which was recommended by Car & Driver, can be set for a 30amp circuit (or 40 or 50), but would I just be paying for extra capacity I wouldn't be able to use?  Are there good brands that are just for 30amp circuits? 
We have an electrician coming tomorrow; I'm trying to get an idea of what we want/need.

If that's the case you should install a larger breaker because it won't cost much more.  That will allow you to use a larger charger if you ever want to.  It would also come in handy if you ever need to use it for a welder or an air compressor.

Don't forget to upsize the wire, as necessary.  From memory, Table 310-16 in the National Electrical Code (NFPA-70) is ampacity, but I haven't cracked the code book in years.

[Just Joe]

The panel is in the garage, about 12" from where we want to hang the charger.  I don't think anything is wired to that turned off breaker since it's labeled "spare".

The car's a Kia Niro, with about a 65 kWh battery.

Looking on Amazon, wall charges range from sub $200 to almost $700.  We don't want to burn down the house, so I was hoping for some recommendations on chargers.  I think thatthis one (Emporia brand), which was recommended by Car & Driver, can be set for a 30amp circuit (or 40 or 50), but would I just be paying for extra capacity I wouldn't be able to use?  Are there good brands that are just for 30amp circuits? 

We have an electrician coming tomorrow; I'm trying to get an idea of what we want/need.

I've purchased a few JuiceBoxes for EVs we have at work. No problems. Some come with app access allowing you to limit charging levels. Your battery lasts longer (ages slower) if you keep it between 20% and 80% charged. Some EVs allow the car to limit max charging levels, some chargers do it for you.

PrimeComTech is another supplier we have used with success.

[LD_TAndK]

The car's a Kia Niro, with about a 65 kWh battery.

How did you decide on the Niro? I love the size and form of it, but starting at 40k MSRP with no Federal tax credit puts it at the same price as the base Model Y with tax credit. Did you lease?

[geekette]

The car's a Kia Niro, with about a 65 kWh battery.

How did you decide on the Niro? I love the size and form of it, but starting at 40k MSRP with no Federal tax credit puts it at the same price as the base Model Y with tax credit. Did you lease?

Kia's now offering $3750 off a purchase (or that $7500 off with a lease).  Do to a Musk allergy, we never seriously considered the Tesla.  Besides, Teslas are ubiquitous here, and I wanted something I could find in a parking lot...  We at least window shopped about everything else in the class, but the Niro best met our needs. The Ionic 5 might have beat it except that the seats were painfully uncomfortable to me.

In the end, I'm glad we drove the 200 mile round trip to get it at the tiny rural dealership.  Their doc fee was $500 vs the local's $1300, and they didn't insist we buy wheel locks and other "options" we didn't want. Hopefully the fact that we didn't buy it locally won't be a pain when we need service.
 

[Just Joe]

Not sure whether it would help or not but as a matter of habit I remove any dealer logos they put on my cars. Maybe the local dealer won't realize that you didn't buy it there in a matter of months. Dealers seem to have alot of turnover so maybe not much institutional memory.

[geekette]

Not sure whether it would help or not but as a matter of habit I remove any dealer logos they put on my cars. Maybe the local dealer won't realize that you didn't buy it there in a matter of months. Dealers seem to have alot of turnover so maybe not much institutional memory.

Yes, I took that off immediately. 

TIL that there's a 30% non-refundable tax credit here in the US for EV chargers.  The power company is paying for the install, but this will be a reduction on the cost of the charger itself.  Nice!

[Tyson]

Not sure whether it would help or not but as a matter of habit I remove any dealer logos they put on my cars. Maybe the local dealer won't realize that you didn't buy it there in a matter of months. Dealers seem to have alot of turnover so maybe not much institutional memory.

Yes, I took that off immediately. 

TIL that there's a 30% non-refundable tax credit here in the US for EV chargers.  The power company is paying for the install, but this will be a reduction on the cost of the charger itself.  Nice!

It's like free money!

[2sk22]

Some interesting data in the latest Pew survey on attitudes towards EVs:

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/13/how-americans-view-electric-vehicles/

Americans express limited confidence that the country will build the necessary infrastructure to support large numbers of EVs on the roads. Some 17% say they are extremely or very confident this will happen, while 30% are somewhat confident. And 53% are not too or not at all confident.

My takeaway from this survey is that after the EV enthusiasts have bought their EVs, its going to be hard to persuade the less enthusiastic.

[nereo]

Some interesting data in the latest Pew survey on attitudes towards EVs:

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/07/13/how-americans-view-electric-vehicles/

Americans express limited confidence that the country will build the necessary infrastructure to support large numbers of EVs on the roads. Some 17% say they are extremely or very confident this will happen, while 30% are somewhat confident. And 53% are not too or not at all confident.

My takeaway from this survey is that after the EV enthusiasts have bought their EVs, its going to be hard to persuade the less enthusiastic.

I'd be curious to see how perceptions change in the next 12-18 months. IIRC more L2 and L3 chargers are planned for install in 2023 than all previous years combined. I'm absolutely amazed at the difference in my region vs early 2022.

...and of course it's also worth noting that almost all of the ~80 million SFH already can charge EVs overnight, and for a typical user 90% of charging is done at home.

I see a huge runway for additional users to join, before the infrastructure catches up.   Based on the workshops I've attended I expect fast charging infrastructure to be fairly mature as little as 5 years.  I do think peak travel holidays might get bumpy for the next 2-3 years as so many new EV owners collide with peak demand for plugs.

[2sk22]

A similar survey from JD Power which seems to come to the same conclusion as the Pew survey

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2023-us-electric-vehicle-consideration-evc-study

“With all of these influences shaping today’s EV market, the biggest friction point for consideration is the availability of public chargers,” said Stewart Stropp, executive director of EV intelligence at J.D. Power. "The growth in public charging isn’t keeping pace with the rising number of EVs on the road. While owners are impressed by what automakers are offering, they’re also thinking about how, when and where they’ll be able to charge their vehicles away from home. A resounding effort to build out and improve the public charging infrastructure will emphatically increase EV purchase consideration.”

[2sk22]

...and of course it's also worth noting that almost all of the ~80 million SFH already can charge EVs overnight, and for a typical user 90% of charging is done at home.

I see a huge runway for additional users to join, before the infrastructure catches up.   Based on the workshops I've attended I expect fast charging infrastructure to be fairly mature as little as 5 years.  I do think peak travel holidays might get bumpy for the next 2-3 years as so many new EV owners collide with peak demand for plugs.

Indeed, there is a quote about this very point in the JD Power survey. Even though road trips are exceptional uses, that's what seems to be driving buying decisions.

Its more than bit irrational - similar to people who buy much larger vehicles than they need (like pickup trucks) for the couple of times a year they need to move something big.

[GuitarStv]

Its more than bit irrational - similar to people who buy much larger vehicles than they need (like pickup trucks) for the couple of times a year they need to move something big.

Yeah . . . but given the share of large trucks and vehicles sold in North America, irrational is the norm and must be planned for.

[NorCal]

...and of course it's also worth noting that almost all of the ~80 million SFH already can charge EVs overnight, and for a typical user 90% of charging is done at home.

I see a huge runway for additional users to join, before the infrastructure catches up.   Based on the workshops I've attended I expect fast charging infrastructure to be fairly mature as little as 5 years.  I do think peak travel holidays might get bumpy for the next 2-3 years as so many new EV owners collide with peak demand for plugs.

Indeed, there is a quote about this very point in the JD Power survey. Even though road trips are exceptional uses, that's what seems to be driving buying decisions.

Its more than bit irrational - similar to people who buy much larger vehicles than they need (like pickup trucks) for the couple of times a year they need to move something big.

A lot of this is just fear of the unknown.

I did my first short road trip in a non-Tesla EV this last weekend.  It wasn't a long roadtrip, but I was in the mountains where there weren't backup options if a certain set of chargers wouldn't work. 

I'm someone who has been telling others for a long time that charging isn't as big of an issue as people make it out to be.  Yet I admit I was nervous relying on a single point of failure for this trip.  It worked out more than fine, but I spent a lot of time overthinking it. 

I think most people need to hear success stories about EV road trips from trusted friends that have done it.  It's hard to visualize the process or trust the online stories until you hear about it from people you trust.  I know part of my personal influence was having my MIL do a cross country road trip in her Tesla back in 2014.

[Frugal Lizard]

...and of course it's also worth noting that almost all of the ~80 million SFH already can charge EVs overnight, and for a typical user 90% of charging is done at home.

I see a huge runway for additional users to join, before the infrastructure catches up.   Based on the workshops I've attended I expect fast charging infrastructure to be fairly mature as little as 5 years.  I do think peak travel holidays might get bumpy for the next 2-3 years as so many new EV owners collide with peak demand for plugs.

Indeed, there is a quote about this very point in the JD Power survey. Even though road trips are exceptional uses, that's what seems to be driving buying decisions.

Its more than bit irrational - similar to people who buy much larger vehicles than they need (like pickup trucks) for the couple of times a year they need to move something big.

There was deep cultural conditioning when I learned to drive around making sure the tank was full.  Gas was expensive and options for filling the tank were limited.  As most irrational fears, seeing past is difficult. Who hasn't been stranded with an empty tank? It is hard to comprehend the ease and convenience of plugging in at home and the shift away from having to rely on a service station that you have less control over.

[Raenia]

...and of course it's also worth noting that almost all of the ~80 million SFH already can charge EVs overnight, and for a typical user 90% of charging is done at home.

I see a huge runway for additional users to join, before the infrastructure catches up.   Based on the workshops I've attended I expect fast charging infrastructure to be fairly mature as little as 5 years.  I do think peak travel holidays might get bumpy for the next 2-3 years as so many new EV owners collide with peak demand for plugs.

Indeed, there is a quote about this very point in the JD Power survey. Even though road trips are exceptional uses, that's what seems to be driving buying decisions.

Its more than bit irrational - similar to people who buy much larger vehicles than they need (like pickup trucks) for the couple of times a year they need to move something big.

I don't really see it as irrational to care about ability to make longer trips - I care about making longer trips, too.

Right now, my family has one car that meets all our use cases. Several of my family members live in areas with street parking only, so we couldn't even count on being able to charge while visiting. If there's no public chargers in those areas, we'd have to either own two cars, or pay through the nose to rent every time we want to visit our families.

A once monthly trip to visit family out of state requiring a rental car would easily be the difference in cost between gas/maintenance. Plus far less flexibility in emergencies - if one of my parents takes a fall, there's a big difference between jumping in the car and going, vs having to arrange a rental.

So tell me again why it's irrational to care about charging infrastructure?

[2sk22]

I don't really see it as irrational to care about ability to make longer trips - I care about making longer trips, too.

Right now, my family has one car that meets all our use cases. Several of my family members live in areas with street parking only, so we couldn't even count on being able to charge while visiting. If there's no public chargers in those areas, we'd have to either own two cars, or pay through the nose to rent every time we want to visit our families.

A once monthly trip to visit family out of state requiring a rental car would easily be the difference in cost between gas/maintenance. Plus far less flexibility in emergencies - if one of my parents takes a fall, there's a big difference between jumping in the car and going, vs having to arrange a rental.

So tell me again why it's irrational to care about charging infrastructure?

I have absolutely no disagreement with your analysis of your situation. There are many people who share your constraints and the EV infrastructure cannot yet support use cases like yours.  We have our own somewhat reasons for not having gotten an EV as yet:
- My wife commutes a few days a week to work (50 mile round trip) in her six year old hybrid Camry. She would be an ideal candidate for an EV except that she is completely uninterested in EVs and her car is already extremely economical to run.
- I am retired and typically drive less than 100 miles a week. My car is a two year old Honda CR-V which has been great on longer trips. I'd like to get an EV but even I just can't justify it right now.

[geekette]

I don't really see it as irrational to care about ability to make longer trips - I care about making longer trips, too.

Right now, my family has one car that meets all our use cases. Several of my family members live in areas with street parking only, so we couldn't even count on being able to charge while visiting. If there's no public chargers in those areas, we'd have to either own two cars, or pay through the nose to rent every time we want to visit our families.

A once monthly trip to visit family out of state requiring a rental car would easily be the difference in cost between gas/maintenance. Plus far less flexibility in emergencies - if one of my parents takes a fall, there's a big difference between jumping in the car and going, vs having to arrange a rental.

So tell me again why it's irrational to care about charging infrastructure?

I'm not saying you're wrong about the need for more charging infrastructure, but I was shocked to see on the PlugShare map that there's a charger in my DH's puny rural home town.  Google maps now has an option to show chargers, too.

A PHEV is a gateway vehicle for some, but we just wanted to ditch the ICE.

[nereo]

...and of course it's also worth noting that almost all of the ~80 million SFH already can charge EVs overnight, and for a typical user 90% of charging is done at home.

I see a huge runway for additional users to join, before the infrastructure catches up.   Based on the workshops I've attended I expect fast charging infrastructure to be fairly mature as little as 5 years.  I do think peak travel holidays might get bumpy for the next 2-3 years as so many new EV owners collide with peak demand for plugs.

Indeed, there is a quote about this very point in the JD Power survey. Even though road trips are exceptional uses, that's what seems to be driving buying decisions.

Its more than bit irrational - similar to people who buy much larger vehicles than they need (like pickup trucks) for the couple of times a year they need to move something big.

I don't really see it as irrational to care about ability to make longer trips - I care about making longer trips, too.

Right now, my family has one car that meets all our use cases. Several of my family members live in areas with street parking only, so we couldn't even count on being able to charge while visiting. If there's no public chargers in those areas, we'd have to either own two cars, or pay through the nose to rent every time we want to visit our families.

A once monthly trip to visit family out of state requiring a rental car would easily be the difference in cost between gas/maintenance. Plus far less flexibility in emergencies - if one of my parents takes a fall, there's a big difference between jumping in the car and going, vs having to arrange a rental.

So tell me again why it's irrational to care about charging infrastructure?

It's irrational because it's already manageable.  As of August 2023 it's relatively easy to take long distance trips with current EVs almost anywhere in the US or Canada. To be clear, the recharging stops will not be as ubiquitous or as quick as rapid as going to a petrol-station, but it's also not so onerous to be a serious barrier.  Currently it takes ~5 minutes of planning to map out chargers on a planned route and then a ~30 minute stop every ~4 hours of driving until you reach your destination.  If you are traveling on a busy weekend I'd add another 15-30 minutes in case you need wait for a charger.  A quick check to find whether your destination has an L2 (or even a basic L1/120v outlet) for overnight charging. Again, not as convenient as ICE but also not prohibitively cumbersome, especially if a 200+ mile day of driving happens only a few times per year.  Far better (IMO) to concentrate on the other 99% of driving days, and how much better the experience is in an EV.

...but this is how people commonly buy things here in the US.  So many people buy pickups not because they need their utility on a weekly basis, but because they might want to haul something a couple times each year.  To meet those hypothetical outlier trips they spend thousands more annually

[RWD]

We've had our EV for a little over a year and a half now and we've driven (from Mississippi) to Wisconsin, North Carolina, and Arizona. Availability of chargers has been pretty good and only once have we had to use a non-Electrify America station (currently preferring EA due to promotional free charging).

[Raenia]

Currently it takes ~5 minutes of planning to map out chargers on a planned route and then a ~30 minute stop every ~4 hours of driving until you reach your destination.

Doesn't feel that easy when I'm hearing all the stories - on this forum! - of people pulling up to a charging station that was on their planned route, only to find the whole thing is out of order. Then you get to add the on-the-fly stress of trying to find another charger close enough to make it, having to drive further out of your way, and being late to your destination.

A quick check to find whether your destination has an L2 (or even a basic L1/120v outlet) for overnight charging.

Pretty sure I mentioned street parking at someone's home, so... no, there is no overnight charging at the destination, not even by standard outlet. Especially in some locations, I could wind up parked several blocks away from the house.

Again, not as convenient as ICE but also not prohibitively cumbersome, especially if a 200+ mile day of driving happens only a few times per year.  Far better (IMO) to concentrate on the other 99% of driving days, and how much better the experience is in an EV.

Also pretty sure I mentioned once a month trips - if that counts as "a few times a year" to you, fine, but it's definitely not 1% of my driving days.

In fact, let's do the math.

30 days in a month: 10 days driving to the office (2 days/week), call it 5 days driving longer distances still within range without requiring a charge, and 2 days long driving with no charging at destination, gives me 17 total driving days.

I get ~12% of my driving days. If we did it by miles instead, probably 50%?

...but this is how people commonly buy things here in the US.  So many people buy pickups not because they need their utility on a weekly basis, but because they might want to haul something a couple times each year.  To meet those hypothetical outlier trips they spend thousands more annually

These are not hypothetical trips, this is actual usage.

Really sick of this narrative that everyone can get by with only charging at home, 30 min stops every 4 hours is not a big deal (that's a lot of added time to a long trip!), and everyone who worries about range and charging networks hasn't considered it properly. Some of us have, and it is still a real problem.

I'm happy for everyone that has travel destinations near major highways with in-service, well maintained chargers every few exits, but that really isn't everyone.

[Tyson]

To those worried about charging infrastructure and charger reliability, this is good info on the Tesla Superchargers (which they are opening up to non-Tesla vehicles):

[nereo]

Currently it takes ~5 minutes of planning to map out chargers on a planned route and then a ~30 minute stop every ~4 hours of driving until you reach your destination.

Doesn't feel that easy when I'm hearing all the stories - on this forum! - of people pulling up to a charging station that was on their planned route, only to find the whole thing is out of order. Then you get to add the on-the-fly stress of trying to find another charger close enough to make it, having to drive further out of your way, and being late to your destination.

A quick check to find whether your destination has an L2 (or even a basic L1/120v outlet) for overnight charging.

Pretty sure I mentioned street parking at someone's home, so... no, there is no overnight charging at the destination, not even by standard outlet. Especially in some locations, I could wind up parked several blocks away from the house.

Again, not as convenient as ICE but also not prohibitively cumbersome, especially if a 200+ mile day of driving happens only a few times per year.  Far better (IMO) to concentrate on the other 99% of driving days, and how much better the experience is in an EV.

Also pretty sure I mentioned once a month trips - if that counts as "a few times a year" to you, fine, but it's definitely not 1% of my driving days.

In fact, let's do the math.

30 days in a month: 10 days driving to the office (2 days/week), call it 5 days driving longer distances still within range without requiring a charge, and 2 days long driving with no charging at destination, gives me 17 total driving days.

I get ~12% of my driving days. If we did it by miles instead, probably 50%?

...but this is how people commonly buy things here in the US.  So many people buy pickups not because they need their utility on a weekly basis, but because they might want to haul something a couple times each year.  To meet those hypothetical outlier trips they spend thousands more annually

These are not hypothetical trips, this is actual usage.

Really sick of this narrative that everyone can get by with only charging at home, 30 min stops every 4 hours is not a big deal (that's a lot of added time to a long trip!), and everyone who worries about range and charging networks hasn't considered it properly. Some of us have, and it is still a real problem.

I'm happy for everyone that has travel destinations near major highways with in-service, well maintained chargers every few exits, but that really isn't everyone.

You seem to be arguing for your personal use case when I am speaking more broadly about the public response to the polls that 2sk22 quoted and the broader question of this thread. Yes, absolutely there are use cases where EVs have bigger drawbacks than is typical. You may indeed be one.

As for broken chargers, that’s where “plan your route comes in”. Simple enough to see whether a station has been online recently, and to have more than a singular recharging option. As for having to walk “several blocks” for overnight charging (or get a Lyft/Uber for the “last mile”) - yes that’s a potential annoyance, but I personally find it fairly minor, particularly if you consider the money saved on a 500 mile round trip over ICE. Others may value the inconvenience/savings factor differently.

[Raenia]

Currently it takes ~5 minutes of planning to map out chargers on a planned route and then a ~30 minute stop every ~4 hours of driving until you reach your destination.

Doesn't feel that easy when I'm hearing all the stories - on this forum! - of people pulling up to a charging station that was on their planned route, only to find the whole thing is out of order. Then you get to add the on-the-fly stress of trying to find another charger close enough to make it, having to drive further out of your way, and being late to your destination.

A quick check to find whether your destination has an L2 (or even a basic L1/120v outlet) for overnight charging.

Pretty sure I mentioned street parking at someone's home, so... no, there is no overnight charging at the destination, not even by standard outlet. Especially in some locations, I could wind up parked several blocks away from the house.

Again, not as convenient as ICE but also not prohibitively cumbersome, especially if a 200+ mile day of driving happens only a few times per year.  Far better (IMO) to concentrate on the other 99% of driving days, and how much better the experience is in an EV.

Also pretty sure I mentioned once a month trips - if that counts as "a few times a year" to you, fine, but it's definitely not 1% of my driving days.

In fact, let's do the math.

30 days in a month: 10 days driving to the office (2 days/week), call it 5 days driving longer distances still within range without requiring a charge, and 2 days long driving with no charging at destination, gives me 17 total driving days.

I get ~12% of my driving days. If we did it by miles instead, probably 50%?

...but this is how people commonly buy things here in the US.  So many people buy pickups not because they need their utility on a weekly basis, but because they might want to haul something a couple times each year.  To meet those hypothetical outlier trips they spend thousands more annually

These are not hypothetical trips, this is actual usage.

Really sick of this narrative that everyone can get by with only charging at home, 30 min stops every 4 hours is not a big deal (that's a lot of added time to a long trip!), and everyone who worries about range and charging networks hasn't considered it properly. Some of us have, and it is still a real problem.

I'm happy for everyone that has travel destinations near major highways with in-service, well maintained chargers every few exits, but that really isn't everyone.

You seem to be arguing for your personal use case when I am speaking more broadly about the public response to the polls that 2sk22 quoted and the broader question of this thread. Yes, absolutely there are use cases where EVs have bigger drawbacks than is typical. You may indeed be one.

As for broken chargers, that’s where “plan your route comes in”. Simple enough to see whether a station has been online recently, and to have more than a singular recharging option. As for having to walk “several blocks” for overnight charging (or get a Lyft/Uber for the “last mile”) - yes that’s a potential annoyance, but I personally find it fairly minor, particularly if you consider the money saved on a 500 mile round trip over ICE. Others may value the inconvenience/savings factor differently.

To be clear, I did not say "several blocks to overnight charging." I said several blocks between the house and the parking space - i.e. I can't run an extension cord from the house. There is no charging at all.

Also, if it were that easy to see whether a station is functioning, then people wouldn't be rolling up to broken ones. Basically what you're saying is you can't trust the route planning functions, you have to individually check each charger you plan to use as well? And you think that can be done in 5 minutes? (You stated above that it takes ~5min planning to map out chargers).

If you're going to reply to my post saying "this is why I don't think it's irrational for me to be concerned" with "Yes, it is definitely irrational to be concerned," you don't get to backtrack and claim not to be speaking to any specific use case.

[nereo]

Yes, you can do route planning in 5 minutes, and yes you can see if the charger has been operational recently in that time frame.  I suspect people don't because they don't do this type of planning - they simply know "hey, there's a charger off Exit XX" and are surprised. Certainly it's an added step over finding a petrol station (when's the last time you looked up whether a given station had all its pumps functioning and has fuel in their holding tanks?)

Very interesting to hear there's no charging "at all". I've yet to encounter that in the last year, and I drive to some pretty tiny towns. It seems many public garages, town halls, almost all car dealerships, and many restaurants have L2 chargers now.

I'm not walking back my claim - I do find it irrational.  But that's ok, us humans do all sorts of things that are irrational.  We aren't Vulcans. I'm not arguing that your use case has more disadvantages than your typical driver.

[Raenia]

Yes, you can do route planning in 5 minutes, and yes you can see if the charger has been operational recently in that time frame.  I suspect people don't because they don't do this type of planning - they simply know "hey, there's a charger off Exit XX" and are surprised. Certainly it's an added step over finding a petrol station (when's the last time you looked up whether a given station had all its pumps functioning and has fuel in their holding tanks?)

I don't care if any given gas station has all of its pumps functioning, because there's another gas station a mile down the road. It's a much bigger deal if the only charger for 30 miles is nonfunctional. Feels disingenuous to pretend that's remotely the same situation.

Very interesting to hear there's no charging "at all". I've yet to encounter that in the last year, and I drive to some pretty tiny towns. It seems many public garages, town halls, almost all car dealerships, and many restaurants have L2 chargers now.

Moving goalposts much? My no chargers comment was in a direct track from your comment about finding an L2/L1 for OVERNIGHT charging. Businesses generally frown on people leaving their vehicles in the parking lot overnight, in fact it's often illegal and can get you towed. And again, that's assuming I could find one in walking distance to my destination, which it generally isn't. So now I have to either pay for parking (garages), walk several miles across town at night (town hall), or go out to dinner (restaurant) to charge the car? Not a lot of car dealers in residential neighborhoods...

I'm not walking back my claim - I do find it irrational.  But that's ok, us humans do all sorts of things that are irrational.  We aren't Vulcans. I'm not arguing that your use case has more disadvantages than your typical driver.

If there are disadvantages to doing a thing, it is rational to consider those disadvantages. Both compared to a typical driver, but also to continuing to drive an ICE. If anything, it would be more irrational to buy an EV without considering the charging networks along your typical travel routes. The fact that for most people, that consideration would alleviate their concern, in no way makes it irrational to have been concerned before doing the research. And if they do find that their use case has significant disadvantages, then it's extremely condescending to continue to call them irrational for their concern.

People are allowed, and indeed rational, to value convenience and simplicity. Calling them irrational for having different priorities than you is just rude.

And just for fun, I looked up my dad's town on Chargehub. There is exactly 1 L2 charger, and no L1 chargers, in his town. I can't tell if it is currently operational or not, there doesn't seem to be any information on when it was last used or anything. How do you usually find that information?

[GilesMM]

News articles like these don't instill confidence in the public -


https://www.autoblog.com/2023/04/15/a-9-hour-drive-in-toyota-s-new-electric-suv-showed-me-how-brutal-ev-road-trips-can-be-with-the-wrong-car/


https://abc7ny.com/ev-chargers-electric-vehicles-tesla-charging-stations/12889177/


https://cowboystatedaily.com/2022/10/13/wyoming-ev-road-trip-15-hours-from-cheyenne-to-casper/

[RWD]

Currently it takes ~5 minutes of planning to map out chargers on a planned route and then a ~30 minute stop every ~4 hours of driving until you reach your destination.

Doesn't feel that easy when I'm hearing all the stories - on this forum! - of people pulling up to a charging station that was on their planned route, only to find the whole thing is out of order. Then you get to add the on-the-fly stress of trying to find another charger close enough to make it, having to drive further out of your way, and being late to your destination.

I've stopped for DC fast charging 44 times (across at least a dozen different states) and I've never been unable to charge at the location. There have been a handful of hiccups but we've never needed to find an alternative charging station.

[Tyson]

News articles like these don't instill confidence in the public -


https://www.autoblog.com/2023/04/15/a-9-hour-drive-in-toyota-s-new-electric-suv-showed-me-how-brutal-ev-road-trips-can-be-with-the-wrong-car/


https://abc7ny.com/ev-chargers-electric-vehicles-tesla-charging-stations/12889177/


https://cowboystatedaily.com/2022/10/13/wyoming-ev-road-trip-15-hours-from-cheyenne-to-casper/

Exceptional charging network is one of the main reasons I bought a Tesla. 

As I noted above, Tesla is opening their charging network to other manufacturers.  I know Ford, GM, Mercedes, Volvo, Polestar, Nissan and Rivian have already signed on, with more to come, undoubtedly.

[geekette]

The first EV owners were what I'd call "bleeding edge".  Now, it's more like "leading edge".  In a couple more years, it will be mainstream.  I mean, it took a while for the horse and buggy to go away, too.

For trips, I look for DC fast chargers along the way, not necessarily at the destination, since they're mainly along main highways.

[RWD]

How do you usually find that information?

PlugShare is the best resource I've found.

[Raenia]

How do you usually find that information?

PlugShare is the best resource I've found.

Thanks RWD! Are you using the "Check ins" feature to guess whether the charger is operational? Looks like the one in my dad's town, the last check in was Nov 2022, and the person notes that they were not able to use it because they couldn't get the app to work. And the next nearest one has been offline since March. Does not fill me with confidence, but at least it's more information than the other site I tried.

Definitely took more than 5 minutes of poking around different websites trying to find the information, only to get inconclusive results. I would not feel comfortable making a trip if this is the level of confidence I had about finding a charger near my destination. And that charger isn't even near my dad's house, just in the same town!

Are people really ok with driving 20 minutes out of their way and sitting in the car for 30 minutes waiting for a charge? Or are they going into the business/restaurant to justify being there, and spending money they otherwise wouldn't? I just can't see this as a trivial problem.