Author Topic: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?  (Read 810706 times)

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1450 on: November 23, 2021, 01:25:24 PM »
i mean the future of a less car centric society could center around suburbs and people working remotely.  The idea of a central location for business to be done is dead for many many white collar jobs IMO.  Companies have not yet succumb to this reality but workers are leaving for remote jobs. 

I have no desire to live in an urban area.  I live on a lake within 45 mins of an international airport.  and 15 minutes from a local train station.

I fully share your preferences! We don't live on a lake, but are within 45 min from three international airports, 15 from the closest, and have wild turkeys in our backyard, not counting all other wildlife.

The question I can't avoid, though, is this: can 7.7 billions of humans live on this planet the way I do? And soon 8, 10, 15 billions? The answer seems to be no. In the end, something will have to give. But it's an entirely different topic.

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1451 on: November 23, 2021, 01:27:09 PM »
i mean the future of a less car centric society could center around suburbs and people working remotely.  The idea of a central location for business to be done is dead for many many white collar jobs IMO.  Companies have not yet succumb to this reality but workers are leaving for remote jobs. 

I have no desire to live in an urban area.  I live on a lake within 45 mins of an international airport.  and 15 minutes from a local train station.

I fully share your preferences! We don't live on a lake, but are within 45 min from three international airports, 15 from the closest, and have wild turkeys in our backyard, not counting all other wildlife.

The question I can't avoid, though, is this: can 7.7 billions of humans live on this planet the way I do? And soon 8, 10, 15 billions? The answer seems to be no. In the end, something will have to give. But it's an entirely different topic.

well when societies become first world their birth rates drop and start to depopulate the planet.  So maybe we don't get to those levels of humans? I mean at the end of the day 1 more human is a bigger issue than how the human lives.  B/c a human not alive consuming nothing.

simonsez

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1452 on: November 23, 2021, 05:21:22 PM »
i mean the future of a less car centric society could center around suburbs and people working remotely.  The idea of a central location for business to be done is dead for many many white collar jobs IMO.  Companies have not yet succumb to this reality but workers are leaving for remote jobs. 

I have no desire to live in an urban area.  I live on a lake within 45 mins of an international airport.  and 15 minutes from a local train station.

I fully share your preferences! We don't live on a lake, but are within 45 min from three international airports, 15 from the closest, and have wild turkeys in our backyard, not counting all other wildlife.

The question I can't avoid, though, is this: can 7.7 billions of humans live on this planet the way I do? And soon 8, 10, 15 billions? The answer seems to be no. In the end, something will have to give. But it's an entirely different topic.

well when societies become first world their birth rates drop and start to depopulate the planet.  So maybe we don't get to those levels of humans? I mean at the end of the day 1 more human is a bigger issue than how the human lives.  B/c a human not alive consuming nothing.
That tends to not happen all at once, though.  Prior to being modern in a post-industrial context, most societies have both a high birth and death rate.  As medical tech availability, clean water, stable food supply, decent infrastructure, etc. become better the death rate drops but the birth rate lags behind and stays high - which of course leads to huge population growth.  The birth rate will fall but requires societies to place value on equitable laws, allowing women to be literate en masse, pushing higher ed, access to non-stigmatized birth control, etc.  It can take several generations or even hundreds of years for this gap between the death rate and birth rate to stabilize.  The reasons are myriad but generally speaking it's hard to go from a largely rural pre-industrial society in which numerous children help out the family farm and household to a highly urbanized one in which both adults might be educated white collar professionals who voluntarily choose to reduce and/or delay childbearing as they balance careers and social lives.  It just doesn't happen overnight.

In other words, many countries are improving in many ways but are still in stage 2 or 3 of the demographic transition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition

Unless there is a catastrophic event(s), the world's population is going to be increasing naturally for decades, with higher and higher proportions of the populace joining the middle class and likely consuming at a higher rate.

afox

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1453 on: December 07, 2021, 10:33:50 AM »
i mean the future of a less car centric society could center around suburbs and people working remotely.  The idea of a central location for business to be done is dead for many many white collar jobs IMO.  Companies have not yet succumb to this reality but workers are leaving for remote jobs. 

I have no desire to live in an urban area.  I live on a lake within 45 mins of an international airport.  and 15 minutes from a local train station.

I fully share your preferences! We don't live on a lake, but are within 45 min from three international airports, 15 from the closest, and have wild turkeys in our backyard, not counting all other wildlife.

The question I can't avoid, though, is this: can 7.7 billions of humans live on this planet the way I do? And soon 8, 10, 15 billions? The answer seems to be no. In the end, something will have to give. But it's an entirely different topic.

well when societies become first world their birth rates drop and start to depopulate the planet.  So maybe we don't get to those levels of humans? I mean at the end of the day 1 more human is a bigger issue than how the human lives.  B/c a human not alive consuming nothing.
That tends to not happen all at once, though.  Prior to being modern in a post-industrial context, most societies have both a high birth and death rate.  As medical tech availability, clean water, stable food supply, decent infrastructure, etc. become better the death rate drops but the birth rate lags behind and stays high - which of course leads to huge population growth.  The birth rate will fall but requires societies to place value on equitable laws, allowing women to be literate en masse, pushing higher ed, access to non-stigmatized birth control, etc.  It can take several generations or even hundreds of years for this gap between the death rate and birth rate to stabilize.  The reasons are myriad but generally speaking it's hard to go from a largely rural pre-industrial society in which numerous children help out the family farm and household to a highly urbanized one in which both adults might be educated white collar professionals who voluntarily choose to reduce and/or delay childbearing as they balance careers and social lives.  It just doesn't happen overnight.

In other words, many countries are improving in many ways but are still in stage 2 or 3 of the demographic transition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_transition

Unless there is a catastrophic event(s), the world's population is going to be increasing naturally for decades, with higher and higher proportions of the populace joining the middle class and likely consuming at a higher rate.

Musk (and the numbers) disagree with you:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2021/12/07/elon-musk-declining-birthrate-threatens-human-civilization/6414749001/


GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1454 on: December 07, 2021, 10:45:58 AM »
I, for one, am not even going to read about what Musk thinks of things outside of areas of his expertise (which are many, but not all by any stretch). The guy is brilliant at what he applies himself to, but being the smartest guy in the room really gets into his head, and he starts to think that he's the smartest guy in any room. Which tends to lead to him being comically wrong. Two best known examples: Pravduh and underwater rescue. The guy didn't know that fact-checking sites existed. Like, how do you plan to solve a problem - however smart you are - if you didn't bother to learn the basic landscape of it? Same with him being an ass to people who ended up saving those trapped in that cave.

joemandadman189

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1455 on: December 07, 2021, 11:12:05 AM »
i went on Rivians website yester day to price out a RT1 - with the larger battery pack it comes in around $85k. and may take a few years to get due to production capability and number or reservations at ~48k.

Ford Lightning is similar, ~15k a year to be made, 160k reservations, with realistic price similar to other existing ICE trucks

Cyber truck has 1.2 million "reservations" and no delivery dates or production numbers set, but at similar pricing to ford

hummer trucks can be had for $125k... thats too much

i want an electric truck and i would buy one, but i dont want to wait several years for the opportunity or spend over the median annual salary to get one.

That ford conversion they did on that old white truck to electric https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/11/02/all-electric-f-100-eluminator-concept.html

made me think that building or having one built may be the only want to get an electric truck sooner than later (maybe), but at quite the expense



boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1456 on: December 07, 2021, 11:54:14 AM »
i went on Rivians website yester day to price out a RT1 - with the larger battery pack it comes in around $85k. and may take a few years to get due to production capability and number or reservations at ~48k.

Ford Lightning is similar, ~15k a year to be made, 160k reservations, with realistic price similar to other existing ICE trucks

Cyber truck has 1.2 million "reservations" and no delivery dates or production numbers set, but at similar pricing to ford

hummer trucks can be had for $125k... thats too much

i want an electric truck and i would buy one, but i dont want to wait several years for the opportunity or spend over the median annual salary to get one.

That ford conversion they did on that old white truck to electric https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/11/02/all-electric-f-100-eluminator-concept.html

made me think that building or having one built may be the only want to get an electric truck sooner than later (maybe), but at quite the expense

per specs cyber truck pricing is far cheaper than ford the middle tier tesla is outfitted like the lariat or platinum f150. 

i plan to look into the ford crate engine a lot more once i retire.  My dad has always wanted to restore an old car and it would be cool to make it an EV too.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1457 on: December 07, 2021, 12:27:21 PM »
I, for one, am not even going to read about what Musk thinks of things outside of areas of his expertise (which are many, but not all by any stretch). The guy is brilliant at what he applies himself to, but being the smartest guy in the room really gets into his head, and he starts to think that he's the smartest guy in any room. Which tends to lead to him being comically wrong. Two best known examples: Pravduh and underwater rescue. The guy didn't know that fact-checking sites existed. Like, how do you plan to solve a problem - however smart you are - if you didn't bother to learn the basic landscape of it? Same with him being an ass to people who ended up saving those trapped in that cave.

While he has certainly accomplished some impressive stuff, Musk's genius seems to be often overstated.  He has had some hilariously stupid/bad ideas that have either failed or are doomed to failure . . . the hyperloop, Vegas loop, Tesla semi, etc.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1458 on: December 07, 2021, 12:41:32 PM »
While he has certainly accomplished some impressive stuff, Musk's genius seems to be often overstated.  He has had some hilariously stupid/bad ideas that have either failed or are doomed to failure . . . the hyperloop, Vegas loop, Tesla semi, etc.

There was a whole Freakonomics podcast about cognitive biases associated with highly capable, highly accomplished people. Musk is the textbook example to all of them.

I was very careful to only include things that already flopped, on the chance that other things succeed. Like, one could have argued that landing rockets was impossible, but...

On the tunnel thing, though... I have a violently negative opinion of it. To me, it's a shining example of tunnel vision (pun intended) created by limited life experience and unwillingness to learn. The guy tries to solve a problem he experienced - cars sitting in traffic jams. But he is utterly blind to a simple fact that cars don't sit *in* traffic, cars *are* traffic. Cars are the problem. Extending roads vertically instead of horizontally doesn't solve the root of the problem.

Granted, tunnels are a part of the solution. They are called... metro. The damn thing was invented over a century ago. Their key advantage isn't really that they are underground per se - the key advantage is that it uses high-capacity vehicles, fast to load and unload through many doors, in a dedicated right of way. If you want to make building these tunnels more efficient - great, god knows we in the US need to do public projects better. But the way he envisions it... it's just a tunnel to nowhere.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 07:11:52 PM by GodlessCommie »

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1459 on: December 07, 2021, 12:54:48 PM »
Quote
While he has certainly accomplished some impressive stuff, Musk's genius seems to be often overstated.  He has had some hilariously stupid/bad ideas that have either failed or are doomed to failure . . . the hyperloop, Vegas loop, Tesla semi, etc.

Just out of interest why do you think the Tesla Semi will fail?

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1460 on: December 07, 2021, 01:08:08 PM »
Quote
While he has certainly accomplished some impressive stuff, Musk's genius seems to be often overstated.  He has had some hilariously stupid/bad ideas that have either failed or are doomed to failure . . . the hyperloop, Vegas loop, Tesla semi, etc.

Just out of interest why do you think the Tesla Semi will fail?

and the hyperloop for that matter.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1461 on: December 07, 2021, 01:22:21 PM »
i went on Rivians website yester day to price out a RT1 - with the larger battery pack it comes in around $85k. and may take a few years to get due to production capability and number or reservations at ~48k.

Ford Lightning is similar, ~15k a year to be made, 160k reservations, with realistic price similar to other existing ICE trucks

Cyber truck has 1.2 million "reservations" and no delivery dates or production numbers set, but at similar pricing to ford

hummer trucks can be had for $125k... thats too much

i want an electric truck and i would buy one, but i dont want to wait several years for the opportunity or spend over the median annual salary to get one.

That ford conversion they did on that old white truck to electric https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2021/11/02/all-electric-f-100-eluminator-concept.html

made me think that building or having one built may be the only want to get an electric truck sooner than later (maybe), but at quite the expense

per specs cyber truck pricing is far cheaper than ford the middle tier tesla is outfitted like the lariat or platinum f150. 

i plan to look into the ford crate engine a lot more once i retire.  My dad has always wanted to restore an old car and it would be cool to make it an EV too.

The Cybertruck does not exist and is unlikely to exist anytime soon.  All Tesla does is delay products, save for the Model Y.  Elon promised a bunch of BS specs that are only achievable with new battery tech...batteries they don't have.

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1462 on: December 07, 2021, 01:23:15 PM »
Except they do have them, just not in the quantities required.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1463 on: December 07, 2021, 01:32:34 PM »
Quote
While he has certainly accomplished some impressive stuff, Musk's genius seems to be often overstated.  He has had some hilariously stupid/bad ideas that have either failed or are doomed to failure . . . the hyperloop, Vegas loop, Tesla semi, etc.

Just out of interest why do you think the Tesla Semi will fail?

and the hyperloop for that matter.

http://www.trainhistory.net/railway-history/atmospheric-railway/

You know Geroge Medhurst was the first one (on record, at least) to propose an idea like the hyerloop, right?  Want to take a guess when he came up with that idea?  Hint: it wasn't last century and it wasn't the century before that either.

But we're supposed to believe Elon Musk has the magic answer that he published ~10 years ago and *THIS* will achieve what was previously unachievable for the last 200+ years?

"Well there's your problem" have some very, ahem, long winded podcasts/videos and a few of them dive into Musk's claims...notably, Hyperloop and the regular Loop ("Tesla in tunnels"). 

https://assets.simpleviewcms.com/simpleview/image/upload/v1/clients/lasvegas/Posted_Agenda_Book_January_12_2021_BOD_e7eb6659-5ae4-49b5-b766-9112c080d7d4.pdf
The Boring Company will absolutely fall short of their contract for the Vegas Loop.  The media isn't reporting on it because "WHOA TESLA IN TUNNELS IN VEGAS" or something stupid.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1464 on: December 07, 2021, 01:32:57 PM »
Except they do have them, just not in the quantities required.

Where are the Cybertrucks? LMAO

boarder42

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1465 on: December 07, 2021, 01:35:07 PM »
Quote
While he has certainly accomplished some impressive stuff, Musk's genius seems to be often overstated.  He has had some hilariously stupid/bad ideas that have either failed or are doomed to failure . . . the hyperloop, Vegas loop, Tesla semi, etc.

Just out of interest why do you think the Tesla Semi will fail?

and the hyperloop for that matter.

http://www.trainhistory.net/railway-history/atmospheric-railway/

You know Geroge Medhurst was the first one (on record, at least) to propose an idea like the hyerloop, right?  Want to take a guess when he came up with that idea?  Hint: it wasn't last century and it wasn't the century before that either.

But we're supposed to believe Elon Musk has the magic answer that he published ~10 years ago and *THIS* will achieve what was previously unachievable for the last 200+ years?

"Well there's your problem" have some very, ahem, long winded podcasts/videos and a few of them dive into Musk's claims...notably, Hyperloop and the regular Loop ("Tesla in tunnels"). 

https://assets.simpleviewcms.com/simpleview/image/upload/v1/clients/lasvegas/Posted_Agenda_Book_January_12_2021_BOD_e7eb6659-5ae4-49b5-b766-9112c080d7d4.pdf
The Boring Company will absolutely fall short of their contract for the Vegas Loop.  The media isn't reporting on it because "WHOA TESLA IN TUNNELS IN VEGAS" or something stupid.

pretty sure the concept of computing was brought up far before it was a real thing.  Just because something couldnt be done in the past doesn't mean its physically impossible to do as technology advances. 

you sure live in a world that revolves around your screen name.

Telecaster

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1466 on: December 07, 2021, 01:39:10 PM »
Musk (and the numbers) disagree with you:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2021/12/07/elon-musk-declining-birthrate-threatens-human-civilization/6414749001/

Musk is wrong.   Global population is projected to increase through the end of this century.    We'll add about two billion people in the next 30 years alone.

gooki

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1467 on: December 07, 2021, 01:44:16 PM »
Except they do have them, just not in the quantities required.

Where are the Cybertrucks? LMAO

My response was to your comment about the batteries.

afox

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1468 on: December 07, 2021, 02:31:42 PM »
Musk (and the numbers) disagree with you:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2021/12/07/elon-musk-declining-birthrate-threatens-human-civilization/6414749001/

Musk is wrong.   Global population is projected to increase through the end of this century.    We'll add about two billion people in the next 30 years alone.

Musk may have not qualified his statement correctly.

Yes, maybe 2 billion in 30 years but after that projections are for no population growth by the end of the century which is likely what he was referring to:
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/06/17/worlds-population-is-projected-to-nearly-stop-growing-by-the-end-of-the-century/



GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1469 on: December 07, 2021, 02:46:25 PM »
Quote
While he has certainly accomplished some impressive stuff, Musk's genius seems to be often overstated.  He has had some hilariously stupid/bad ideas that have either failed or are doomed to failure . . . the hyperloop, Vegas loop, Tesla semi, etc.

Just out of interest why do you think the Tesla Semi will fail?

At the risk of thread derailment - OK.  Musk is a very smart guy in certain areas, and I applaud his efforts at converting the country away from fossil fuel vehicles.  That said, I think he's wrong on the Semi.  It's a matter of weight, energy density, and the max that the roads can support.

The maximum total weight that you can run a semi truck in the US is 80,000 lbs (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/policy/rpt_congress/truck_sw_laws/index.htm).

The average weight of an unloaded semi is between 25,000 - 35,000 lbs (https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-much-does-a-semi-truck-weigh).  Let's go with 30,000 as a middle point.

According to Musk, the semi will have a range of 621 miles (https://electrek.co/2020/11/24/tesla-semi-electric-truck-621-miles-range-elon-musk/)

According to Peterbilt’s site (www.peterbilt.com), their trucks average of about 4.89 mpg, so 621 miles is about 127 gallons of fuel.  At 7 lbs a gallon(https://www.tcsfuel.com/blog/the-weight-of-diesel-fuel/) that works out to 882 lbs.

Gasoline is about 100 times more energy dense than lithium ion batteries (https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/201208/backpage.cfm), so that means that about 88,200 lbs of battery will be needed.  (We'll ignore the fact that Tesla is using less energy dense Lithium Ion Phosphate batteries for this calculation).  We can already see a problem here.  But you know what?  Elon is a pretty smart guy and is working on the cutting edge of battery technology . . . so let's assume that he can use magic to double the energy density of his batteries.  That's a pretty incredible feat.  So we end up with 44,100 lbs of battery for the range that he quoted.

So we have some totals:
Max weight on the road - 80,000

Gas side:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of fuel - 882
Max Cargo Capacity - 49,118

Musk Semi:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of magical super batteries - 44,100
Max Cargo Capacity - 5,900


Seems like this can't work - Musk's truck wouldn't be able to tow enough cargo to make any sense.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1470 on: December 07, 2021, 02:52:31 PM »
You're skipping the thermal efficiency numbers and abusing some of the rest.

My math is here: https://www.sevarg.net/2016/02/07/electric-long-haul-trucks/

They seemed feasible 5 years ago and still seem feasible.

Though you're still better off with a series hybrid.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 02:54:36 PM by Syonyk »

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1471 on: December 07, 2021, 04:09:46 PM »
I, for one, wouldn't challenge Musk in the field of electric vehicles. His track record is too good there. Yes, there is a pattern of magic timelines. But no one has a better record as it comes to EVs. And if we want to explore false promises, I give you legacy automakers and hydrogen. Especially Toyota. Compared to that, Musk is a paragon of punctuality. Yet virtually no one makes a big deal out of it. No one calls it "hydrogen Toyota time".

Or consider this: all legacy automakers were more wrong about the EV adoption timeline than Musk about his, but in reverse. If you listened to GM and Ford  and the rest 10 years ago, EVs were a distant dream. Unfeasible, unpractical. That's way wronger than Musk has ever been about his deliveries.

So, again, where Musk applies himself, I wouldn't bet against him. Where he heard something, gave it some spare cycles, and spat it out - all bets are off.

Also, need to be fair about hyperloop. Elon was very upfront that it's just an idea that looked promising, but he had no bandwidth to give to it. So he hoped other people pick it up and run with it. Which they did. And nothing panned out of it so far. But it's hard to really fault anyone for it, ideas that don't pan out happen. Better to try and to fail than to not try at all.

Telecaster

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1472 on: December 07, 2021, 04:44:41 PM »
You're skipping the thermal efficiency numbers and abusing some of the rest.

My math is here: https://www.sevarg.net/2016/02/07/electric-long-haul-trucks/

They seemed feasible 5 years ago and still seem feasible.

Though you're still better off with a series hybrid.

^ Interesting analysis!   One near term application for electric semis is drayage.  The daily mileage is low and high torque electric motors are ideally suited to the application. 

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1473 on: December 07, 2021, 04:47:12 PM »
^ Interesting analysis!   One near term application for electric semis is drayage.  The daily mileage is low and high torque electric motors are ideally suited to the application.

I'm sure I could do a better job with the numbers now, but... the point stands, it's not insanely infeasible, and you need some minimum weight for the tractors for traction anyway.  It's like trying to build a lighter forklift battery - the electric runs use big heavy lead acid batteries... because they need big heavy counterweights anyway.

Yes, that sort of use case would be perfect for electrics, and it wouldn't even need that much battery or charging.  In places like CA where you pretty much can't run an older diesel anyway, I'm surprised there aren't more running around already.  They sit in line a whole lot cheaper than anything else.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1474 on: December 07, 2021, 07:49:02 PM »
100%  Saw the Mach-e on the road for the first time and numerous four letter words crossed my mind about how it looked nothing like a mustang (of any vintage).  Am no car guy but it looks like any other large generic cross over.

I also don't understand why they gave it the Mustang name... it's so totally a different vehicle in every way.  What's even more strange is that Ford continue to make the traditional Mustang.  It's just confusing.  Maybe they hired the same guy who decided to make like five different Priuses.

Calling it a mustang was a hail-mary. https://www.motor1.com/news/383711/ford-mustang-mach-e-documentary/ It was a brilliant move in terms of any publicity is good publicity, as well as signalling, internally on how important this project was.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1475 on: December 08, 2021, 04:31:53 AM »
RE Tesla semi hurdles:
WEIGHT:

Musk is shooting for a 500kwh battery pack and range of 300 miles at first. Possibly larger battery with longer range later:
https://insideevs.com/news/487795/tesla-semi-500-kwh-battery-pack/

The Model 3 long range has an 82kwh pack that weighs 1060lbs. Scaling that up to 500kwh would give the Tesla Semi a battery weight of 6463lbs. Add to that the weight of multiple, large electric motors as well. So the BEV powertrain in the Tesla truck is almost certainly over 7000lbs, and probably closer to 8k by the time inverters and cooling and things are added.

A modern 15L diesel engine weighs about 3k lbs. The transmission, fuel tanks and exhaust systems add another 2k or so. Lets round up to 6k lbs when the larger cooling system and all of the small things are included to get the truck moving down the road. So, Tesla Semi has a disadvantage around 1-2k lbs  to a modern diesel powertrain.

I haven't followed up on their claims, but Tesla is saying that the US has agreed to raise the 80k gross limit to 82k for BEV trucks, and they're claiming that exemption puts them equal to a diesel for max payload:
https://electrek.co/2021/08/13/tesla-semi-electric-truck-weight-on-point-crucial/

So, that more or less aligns with my estimate for powertrain weights, and means that weight may not be such a big deal for the Tesla Semi. Particularly if other aspects of the truck can be designed to weigh less.

CHARGING INFRASTRUCTURE

Tesla's Supercharger network is the best in the business. But even their fastest V3 Superchargers aren't going to charge a 500+kwh battery with any urgency. The MEGASUPERDUPERULTRAcharger that Tesla is supposedly working on doesn't actually exist in public yet. It might one day, but they'll need to be built and supported nationwide if Tesla Semi is to ever be viable as a long range hauler. Trucking companies will likely want to have these chargers on their premises so they can ensure that their trucks have full batteries when they leave. This will be expensive. Likely 6 figures per MEGASUPERDUPERULTRAcharger, and if you have more than a handful of trucks, you'll probably want more than one. Once on the road, these MEGASUPERDUPERULTRAcharger stations will need to be designed in a way that can fit Semis and allow them to "pull through". The layout of the current Supercharger network is a struggle that requires compromises with a regular car or truck pulling a small trailer. It's just not feasible at all with something the size of a semi. So, this charging network will need to be all new, it's going to be more expensive than the existing Supercharger network, and it's going to more or less require private businesses like trucking companies and truck stops to invest bunches of money into their own facilities as well.

RANGE/CHARGE TIME:
While weight is critical in trucking, (and the Tesla Semi may not be at much or any disadvantage there) the larger issue with the Tesla Semi is the 300 mile range at that weight. That's only 5 hrs of freight movement at a time if the estimated range is actually right. But that also means you need to have access to a charger at each end of the 300 mile range, and that charger has to be huge and fast (MEGASUPERDUPERULTRAcharger) or the truck is losing time and money compared to a diesel that can go 2k miles when filled up (300gal @ 7mpg). Some of the new trucks are close to 10mpg which extends that range even further. Anyway, the point is that trucks only make money when they're moving freight and a 300 mile range is a huge hindrance for anything but local deliveries/port drayage/etc from the jump. Add to that the fact that range drops in colder weather, and the nearest MEGASUPERDUPERULTRAcharger may not be exactly 300 miles away from the last one, and the effective range is shortened even further. Then consider that Tesla's EVs often struggle to hit their rated range in real world driving conditions, and the picture gets even more bleak. (Sure, a larger battery would add range, but that would increase charging times and simultaneously take away payload capacity as well, meaning more trucks needed to move the same amount of freight). What is a rated 300 mile range may end up being under 200 miles in certain duty cycles and environments.

SERVICE/SUPPORT
As I already noted, trucks only make money for their owners when they're moving freight. Things break on the road. Sometimes it's mechanical stuff, and other times it's due to external factors like hitting a deer or something (To remain legal, all lights and indicators must be functional, etc). There currently exists a nationwide network of parts/service centers for diesel trucks. These businesses are employed by people that are very used to working on existing platforms. The entire idea is to get the trucks back on the road and making money ASAP. Tesla has no such network at the moment. That means an issue that might potentially delay a diesel truck a few hours could delay a Tesla Semi by much longer. Fleets make purchase decisions based on the amount of "uptime" a truck has, so supporting the product quickly is critical. Having to wait for parts and or service longer than they would for a diesel would absolutely kill the deal for lots of fleets.

LIFESPAN/LONGEVITY

A diesel engine in a semi typically goes 500k or more between overhauls. The trucks themselves often see over 1 million miles in their usable life spans. A battery electric powertrain should last longer, but if you're constantly using a MEGASUPERDUPERULTRAcharger to get back on the road ASAP that might shorten the battery life.
If the trucks themselves fall apart before 1 million miles because they're designed in a way that cut out weight in critical places or something then that's a big deal too. The truck chassis can't fall apart and need to be replaced at 300k miles or we're just making throwaway trucks.
Since these things are giant rolling computers, they'll need to have their software supported for a decade or more. Situations where the electronic hardware (chips, etc) is at the end of it's life will need to be considered. Tesla already had an issue with this in their MCU fiasco. Proper design and/or proper specification of components that can handle several hundred thousand miles of use before they need replacement will be critical. If you're going to spec cheaper stuff, then it has to be serviceable.

COMPETITION

Several truck manufacturers (Diamler, Volvo, Cummins, etc) have EV trucks in final development or even in customer hands on a trial basis. These companies have established reputations, they understand their customers and their needs very well, and they already have the necessary support networks in place. Tesla isn't catching commercial OEMs flat footed like they did in the passenger car market.

INTERIOR LAYOUT
Here's a render of the interior of the Tesla Semi:


If it ends up looking like that, the obvious things that are missing include a passenger seat, and a place to sleep. Lots of modern trucks are driven by a team of drivers so they can legally keep moving for more hours per day. That takes more than a single seat. Any long range truck also needs a place for the driver to sleep, regardless of whether it's being operated by a single person or a team.

SUMMARY
Making it a single person "day cab", with max of 300 miles of range limits the truck to very short usage scenarios. Those are an important role, but it's not going to take over the trucking industry. A lot of those jobs could be done right now by an EV truck, and there is already competition in those markets from established players, so Tesla has no "first mover" advantage here. Plus there will need to be pretty significant investment from Tesla and/or customers into charging infrastructure as well as parts/service support to make them viable, even for short range work.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 04:33:44 AM by Paper Chaser »

lemonlyman

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1476 on: December 08, 2021, 06:54:21 AM »
Great write up! I don't think the Semi is good for long haul either. Short haul and over the road trucking moves trillions in goods every year. There is plenty of space for the Semi to grow and it's incredibly unreasonable for anyone to assume Tesla would "take over." Just producing the amount of trucks to do that would be massive and take decades.

PepsiCo received permits to construct mega charger installation on Nov 22 in anticipation of some Q4 Semi deliveries. This may be the "megasuperduperultra" charger: https://electrek.co/2021/11/15/tesla-semi-quick-charge-megacharger-important-visit/
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 07:05:08 AM by lemonlyman »

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1477 on: December 08, 2021, 07:29:33 AM »
You're skipping the thermal efficiency numbers and abusing some of the rest.

My math is here: https://www.sevarg.net/2016/02/07/electric-long-haul-trucks/

They seemed feasible 5 years ago and still seem feasible.

Though you're still better off with a series hybrid.

I definitely didn't include thermal efficiency into the back of the napkin style calculations that I was doing, and that does change things a fair bit.  An electric motor is 85 - 90% efficient, and diesel is 30 - 35%, so an electric motor should be about 2.5 (83/33) times more efficient than I was using.

Gas side:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of fuel - 882
Max Cargo Capacity - 49,118

Musk Semi:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of real batteries available today - 35,280
Weight of magical super batteries that are twice as energy dense - 17,640
Max Cargo Capacity - 14,720 (batteries available today) or 32,360 lbs for magical super batteries.

This seems to be in the ballpark of the number that you were using on your website ~ 15,000 lbs for 700 mile range using available technology.  This is much better, but I'd still argue that it doesn't seem likely to replace regular trucks any time soon.

pecunia

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1478 on: December 08, 2021, 07:45:31 AM »
You're skipping the thermal efficiency numbers and abusing some of the rest.

My math is here: https://www.sevarg.net/2016/02/07/electric-long-haul-trucks/

They seemed feasible 5 years ago and still seem feasible.

Though you're still better off with a series hybrid.

I definitely didn't include thermal efficiency into the back of the napkin style calculations that I was doing, and that does change things a fair bit.  An electric motor is 85 - 90% efficient, and diesel is 30 - 35%, so an electric motor should be about 2.5 (83/33) times more efficient than I was using.

Gas side:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of fuel - 882
Max Cargo Capacity - 49,118

Musk Semi:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of real batteries available today - 35,280
Weight of magical super batteries that are twice as energy dense - 17,640
Max Cargo Capacity - 14,720 (batteries available today) or 32,360 lbs for magical super batteries.

This seems to be in the ballpark of the number that you were using on your website ~ 15,000 lbs for 700 mile range using available technology.  This is much better, but I'd still argue that it doesn't seem likely to replace regular trucks any time soon.

I still wonder if there isn't some way to put the equivalent of an AC third rail into roads and offload much of that battery weight.  I could see it working through transformer action (electromagnetic induction).  It would be rectified on board and current would be supplied to the drive motors.  Small batteries would still be needed to get the truck to it's final destination off the main highway (Interstate).

It would be a major infrastructure project to modify the roads, but you should have the advantages of today's freight haulers without pollution.  You may be able to eliminate a lot of greenhouse gases depending on the initial supply of the AC.

Of course with magic batteries, the idea of offloading the batteries is totally void.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1479 on: December 08, 2021, 07:57:52 AM »
You're skipping the thermal efficiency numbers and abusing some of the rest.

My math is here: https://www.sevarg.net/2016/02/07/electric-long-haul-trucks/

They seemed feasible 5 years ago and still seem feasible.

Though you're still better off with a series hybrid.

I definitely didn't include thermal efficiency into the back of the napkin style calculations that I was doing, and that does change things a fair bit.  An electric motor is 85 - 90% efficient, and diesel is 30 - 35%, so an electric motor should be about 2.5 (83/33) times more efficient than I was using.

Gas side:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of fuel - 882
Max Cargo Capacity - 49,118

Musk Semi:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of real batteries available today - 35,280
Weight of magical super batteries that are twice as energy dense - 17,640
Max Cargo Capacity - 14,720 (batteries available today) or 32,360 lbs for magical super batteries.

This seems to be in the ballpark of the number that you were using on your website ~ 15,000 lbs for 700 mile range using available technology.  This is much better, but I'd still argue that it doesn't seem likely to replace regular trucks any time soon.

I agree with your larger point, but I think it's worth pointing out that calculating the weight of an EV truck is not as simple as weight of an ICE truck + weight of batteries = weight of EV truck. The ICE truck has thousands of lbs of ICE stuff that the EV truck would not (engine, transmission, differentials, larger cooling system, fuel tanks, exhaust, etc). So the basic equation to find the weight of the BEV truck would be:

Weight of ICE truck - Weight of all ICE components + Weight of batteries and all EV components = total weight

Designing a truck as an EV from the start may allow for more weight loss in some places, but it may also just shift weight around (that's a whole lot of instant torque twisting things). In the end there's no question that it will be heavier. It's just going to come down to how much range can be had at a given weight. It seems like getting roughly equivalent weight in a Tesla semi results in just 300 miles of range which is pretty not good for long haulers. Using rough numbers, a basic diesel semi cab weighs about 20k lbs. The diesel powertrain (all of the ICE stuff) weighs about 6k. The batteries to go about 600 miles would be 13k plus a couple thousand for electric motors, inverters, battery cooling, etc. So we end up with a truck cab that's 29k lbs instead of 20k lbs. Trailer weights are presumably the same for either truck and can mostly be ignored in this comparison. So a 600 mile range BEV semi probably hauls about 10k lbs less freight. If governments are willing to increase max payload for EV semis, then the difference might be 8k lbs. As the range (size of battery) of the BEV semi increases, the disparity between the max payloads does as well, and so do starting price and charge time.

Syonyk

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1480 on: December 08, 2021, 08:19:44 AM »
I agree with your larger point, but I think it's worth pointing out that calculating the weight of an EV truck is not as simple as weight of an ICE truck + weight of batteries = weight of EV truck. The ICE truck has thousands of lbs of ICE stuff that the EV truck would not (engine, transmission, differentials, larger cooling system, fuel tanks, exhaust, etc). So the basic equation to find the weight of the BEV truck would be:

Weight of ICE truck - Weight of all ICE components + Weight of batteries and all EV components = total weight

That, plus the whole "100x" gas vs batteries (how's it compare to diesel? ;) ) thing isn't the right way to approach the math either.

Quote
The Model 3 long range has an 82kwh pack that weighs 1060lbs.

If we use that (which seems "real world" enough to me...), then the stated 35k lbs of batteries is 2700 kWh.  Which is an exceedingly long ranged pack, even for a semi.

The 100x number is a casual "Get the point across" value, not something concrete.  More concretely:

82kWh @ 3.5 mi/kWh is 287 miles.  Do that at 30mpg on gas, you're at 9.5 gallons, or about 60 lb.  Toss in 50lb for a gas tank, you're at 110lb for the same range, or about a practical weight difference of 9.6x - not 100x.

soulpatchmike

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1481 on: December 08, 2021, 08:22:27 AM »
You're skipping the thermal efficiency numbers and abusing some of the rest.

My math is here: https://www.sevarg.net/2016/02/07/electric-long-haul-trucks/

They seemed feasible 5 years ago and still seem feasible.

Though you're still better off with a series hybrid.

I definitely didn't include thermal efficiency into the back of the napkin style calculations that I was doing, and that does change things a fair bit.  An electric motor is 85 - 90% efficient, and diesel is 30 - 35%, so an electric motor should be about 2.5 (83/33) times more efficient than I was using.

Gas side:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of fuel - 882
Max Cargo Capacity - 49,118

Musk Semi:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of real batteries available today - 35,280
Weight of magical super batteries that are twice as energy dense - 17,640
Max Cargo Capacity - 14,720 (batteries available today) or 32,360 lbs for magical super batteries.

This seems to be in the ballpark of the number that you were using on your website ~ 15,000 lbs for 700 mile range using available technology.  This is much better, but I'd still argue that it doesn't seem likely to replace regular trucks any time soon.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/29449/tesla-semi-prototype-spotted-hauling-75000-pound-load-through-northern-california
"The Tesla's driver told weigh station operators that "the truck is meeting or exceeding the range estimates" with an alleged 75,000-pound test payload of nine concrete blocks on their trailer."

Either they are breaking the laws of physics or your calculations are missing some vital information.  The glaring one to me is the base weight of a diesel semi will be significantly higher due to a huge engine/transmission/cooling systems/large empty gas tanks that are not used on the tesla semi among other legacy heavy design decisions that semi manufacturers use because 'we've always done it that way'...  The base dry weight without battery or fuel could easily be 10k+ lbs less on the tesla.

Here is a truck drivers perspective on how much the tesla weighs.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/01/how-much-does-the-tesla-semi-weigh/

GodlessCommie

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1482 on: December 08, 2021, 08:59:01 AM »
From a complete layman's perspective, overhead wires make a lot of sense when it comes to long haul. The coverage doesn't need to be complete, or uninterrupted, the batteries take care of the gaps. Technology exists, and has decades of use moving very very heavy trains over very very long distances. It allows batteries to be smaller and charge times on MEGASUPERDUPERULTRAchargers (love the term!) shorter. Volvo, for one, has been experimenting with it for a while now.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1483 on: December 08, 2021, 09:03:02 AM »
I agree with your larger point, but I think it's worth pointing out that calculating the weight of an EV truck is not as simple as weight of an ICE truck + weight of batteries = weight of EV truck. The ICE truck has thousands of lbs of ICE stuff that the EV truck would not (engine, transmission, differentials, larger cooling system, fuel tanks, exhaust, etc). So the basic equation to find the weight of the BEV truck would be:

Weight of ICE truck - Weight of all ICE components + Weight of batteries and all EV components = total weight

That, plus the whole "100x" gas vs batteries (how's it compare to diesel? ;) ) thing isn't the right way to approach the math either.

Energy density of gas is 46 MJ/kg and diesel is 45 MJ/kg (https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Energy_density).



Quote
The Model 3 long range has an 82kwh pack that weighs 1060lbs.

If we use that (which seems "real world" enough to me...), then the stated 35k lbs of batteries is 2700 kWh.  Which is an exceedingly long ranged pack, even for a semi.

The 100x number is a casual "Get the point across" value, not something concrete.  More concretely:

82kWh @ 3.5 mi/kWh is 287 miles.  Do that at 30mpg on gas, you're at 9.5 gallons, or about 60 lb.  Toss in 50lb for a gas tank, you're at 110lb for the same range, or about a practical weight difference of 9.6x - not 100x.

Tesla Model 3 gets 130 mpg - https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/41189.shtml.  Dividing that by 2.5 (to account for thermal efficiency) that means that it would get around 52 mpg on gas.

The gas tank of a Toyota Corolla weighs about 25 lbs empty, and holds 11 gallons.

That would bump things up to about 20x practical weight difference.

But then there's another problem here.  We're looking at this comparison based upon the short range of the battery pack.  If we compare a full tank with battery packs, the difference becomes even greater.


25 lb (fuel tank) + 69.3 lbs (11 gallons gas) @ 52 mpg = 682 mile range for 94.3 lbs

vs

1060 lb for 287 = 682 mile range for 2,518 lbs


Of course, this gets worse if we consider real world conditions (batteries significantly underperform in cold weather - often 20% worse or more).  But it seems that you're looking at more than 25x - not 9.6x.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1484 on: December 08, 2021, 09:07:58 AM »
You're skipping the thermal efficiency numbers and abusing some of the rest.

My math is here: https://www.sevarg.net/2016/02/07/electric-long-haul-trucks/

They seemed feasible 5 years ago and still seem feasible.

Though you're still better off with a series hybrid.

I definitely didn't include thermal efficiency into the back of the napkin style calculations that I was doing, and that does change things a fair bit.  An electric motor is 85 - 90% efficient, and diesel is 30 - 35%, so an electric motor should be about 2.5 (83/33) times more efficient than I was using.

Gas side:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of fuel - 882
Max Cargo Capacity - 49,118

Musk Semi:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of real batteries available today - 35,280
Weight of magical super batteries that are twice as energy dense - 17,640
Max Cargo Capacity - 14,720 (batteries available today) or 32,360 lbs for magical super batteries.

This seems to be in the ballpark of the number that you were using on your website ~ 15,000 lbs for 700 mile range using available technology.  This is much better, but I'd still argue that it doesn't seem likely to replace regular trucks any time soon.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/29449/tesla-semi-prototype-spotted-hauling-75000-pound-load-through-northern-california
"The Tesla's driver told weigh station operators that "the truck is meeting or exceeding the range estimates" with an alleged 75,000-pound test payload of nine concrete blocks on their trailer."

Either they are breaking the laws of physics or your calculations are missing some vital information.  The glaring one to me is the base weight of a diesel semi will be significantly higher due to a huge engine/transmission/cooling systems/large empty gas tanks that are not used on the tesla semi among other legacy heavy design decisions that semi manufacturers use because 'we've always done it that way'...  The base dry weight without battery or fuel could easily be 10k+ lbs less on the tesla.

Here is a truck drivers perspective on how much the tesla weighs.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/01/how-much-does-the-tesla-semi-weigh/

Not laws of physics as much as legal ones.  The legal weight limit for a semi truck on US roads is 80,000 lbs (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/policy/rpt_congress/truck_sw_laws/index.htm).  I'm confused how they're legally hauling 75,000 lbs . . . does the truck and bed weigh less than 5,000 lbs?

Something seems weird there.


EDIT - I read the second article.  So, the weight of the load is being guessed by the number of straps used to tie stuff down?  I wouldn't place a lot of faith in that.

As an aside - I used to load and strap down flatbed trucks working a summer job in university (it was lumber, not concrete) but the number of straps used was generally determined by the rule of "looks about right" . . . not careful calculation of weight.  :P
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 09:12:11 AM by GuitarStv »

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1485 on: December 08, 2021, 09:23:20 AM »
I agree with your larger point, but I think it's worth pointing out that calculating the weight of an EV truck is not as simple as weight of an ICE truck + weight of batteries = weight of EV truck. The ICE truck has thousands of lbs of ICE stuff that the EV truck would not (engine, transmission, differentials, larger cooling system, fuel tanks, exhaust, etc). So the basic equation to find the weight of the BEV truck would be:

Weight of ICE truck - Weight of all ICE components + Weight of batteries and all EV components = total weight

That, plus the whole "100x" gas vs batteries (how's it compare to diesel? ;) ) thing isn't the right way to approach the math either.

Energy density of gas is 46 MJ/kg and diesel is 45 MJ/kg (https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Energy_density).



Quote
The Model 3 long range has an 82kwh pack that weighs 1060lbs.

If we use that (which seems "real world" enough to me...), then the stated 35k lbs of batteries is 2700 kWh.  Which is an exceedingly long ranged pack, even for a semi.

The 100x number is a casual "Get the point across" value, not something concrete.  More concretely:

82kWh @ 3.5 mi/kWh is 287 miles.  Do that at 30mpg on gas, you're at 9.5 gallons, or about 60 lb.  Toss in 50lb for a gas tank, you're at 110lb for the same range, or about a practical weight difference of 9.6x - not 100x.

Tesla Model 3 gets 130 mpg - https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/41189.shtml.  Dividing that by 2.5 (to account for thermal efficiency) that means that it would get around 52 mpg on gas.

The gas tank of a Toyota Corolla weighs about 25 lbs empty, and holds 11 gallons.

That would bump things up to about 20x practical weight difference.

But then there's another problem here.  We're looking at this comparison based upon the short range of the battery pack.  If we compare a full tank with battery packs, the difference becomes even greater.


25 lb (fuel tank) + 69.3 lbs (11 gallons gas) @ 52 mpg = 682 mile range for 94.3 lbs

vs

1060 lb for 287 = 682 mile range for 2,518 lbs


Of course, this gets worse if we consider real world conditions (batteries significantly underperform in cold weather - often 20% worse or more).  But it seems that you're looking at more than 25x - not 9.6x.

A couple things---

1) Show me all the gas cars out there that'll run 0-60 in 2 or 3 seconds and get 52mpg.  It's more complicated than just running napkin numbers.

2) Diesel is ~12.7% heavier than gasoline. Use MJ/kg if you want, but you can't translate that directly to gallons.

Quote from: GuitarStv
Not laws of physics as much as legal ones.  The legal weight limit for a semi truck on US roads is 80,000 lbs (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/policy/rpt_congress/truck_sw_laws/index.htm).  I'm confused how they're legally hauling 75,000 lbs . . . does the truck and bed weigh less than 5,000 lbs?

3) Are you even reading your own links?  From your source: " Federal law controls maximum gross vehicle weights and axle loads on the Interstate System. [...] The report also shows that in some instances, States have laws that allow sizes and weights on non-Interstate highways in excess of the current Federal truck size and weight limits. This is an expected finding, as State laws control maximum gross vehicle sizes and weights on non-Interstate highways, including the NHS."

In California, weights are among the most restrictive in the U.S. Nearby states such as Idaho, Oregon and Washington permit gross vehicle weights up to 105,500 pounds, while Arizona, Nevada and Utah allow a maximum gross weight of 129,000 pounds.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 09:33:47 AM by JLee »

dandarc

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1486 on: December 08, 2021, 09:38:26 AM »
On reading of own links - that one with the 100x energy density's very next few sentences claim a 5x EV efficiency bonus, so should have been a 20x multiplier in the back of napkin math (although if we're comparing new diesel efficiency, we should be using 7-10 mpg figure instead of under 5 and a 2.5x EV efficiency bonus).

But with the known current weight-to-kWh ratio of model 3 battery pack, and what seems like an achievable < 2kWh / mile claim from Tesla, you've got pretty straightforward back of napkin math - 13K lbs for a 500 mile range, 18k for a 700 mile range. Reduce a bit with some weight reductions in the rest of the truck and the conclusion is inevitable - battery weight is hardly a deal-breaker. Charging speed / infrastructure is the real barrier.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 09:40:18 AM by dandarc »

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1487 on: December 08, 2021, 09:51:49 AM »
I agree with your larger point, but I think it's worth pointing out that calculating the weight of an EV truck is not as simple as weight of an ICE truck + weight of batteries = weight of EV truck. The ICE truck has thousands of lbs of ICE stuff that the EV truck would not (engine, transmission, differentials, larger cooling system, fuel tanks, exhaust, etc). So the basic equation to find the weight of the BEV truck would be:

Weight of ICE truck - Weight of all ICE components + Weight of batteries and all EV components = total weight

That, plus the whole "100x" gas vs batteries (how's it compare to diesel? ;) ) thing isn't the right way to approach the math either.

Energy density of gas is 46 MJ/kg and diesel is 45 MJ/kg (https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Energy_density).



Quote
The Model 3 long range has an 82kwh pack that weighs 1060lbs.

If we use that (which seems "real world" enough to me...), then the stated 35k lbs of batteries is 2700 kWh.  Which is an exceedingly long ranged pack, even for a semi.

The 100x number is a casual "Get the point across" value, not something concrete.  More concretely:

82kWh @ 3.5 mi/kWh is 287 miles.  Do that at 30mpg on gas, you're at 9.5 gallons, or about 60 lb.  Toss in 50lb for a gas tank, you're at 110lb for the same range, or about a practical weight difference of 9.6x - not 100x.

Tesla Model 3 gets 130 mpg - https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/41189.shtml.  Dividing that by 2.5 (to account for thermal efficiency) that means that it would get around 52 mpg on gas.

The gas tank of a Toyota Corolla weighs about 25 lbs empty, and holds 11 gallons.

That would bump things up to about 20x practical weight difference.

But then there's another problem here.  We're looking at this comparison based upon the short range of the battery pack.  If we compare a full tank with battery packs, the difference becomes even greater.


25 lb (fuel tank) + 69.3 lbs (11 gallons gas) @ 52 mpg = 682 mile range for 94.3 lbs

vs

1060 lb for 287 = 682 mile range for 2,518 lbs


Of course, this gets worse if we consider real world conditions (batteries significantly underperform in cold weather - often 20% worse or more).  But it seems that you're looking at more than 25x - not 9.6x.

A couple things---

1) Show me all the gas cars out there that'll run 0-60 in 2 or 3 seconds and get 52mpg.  It's more complicated than just running napkin numbers.

2) Diesel is ~12.7% heavier than gasoline. Use MJ/kg if you want, but you can't translate that directly to gallons.

1) I agree with this being more complicated than running back of napkin numbers . . . but I'm not sure why a 0-60 speed of 2 or 3 seconds is important in the discussion?

2) Fair point, thanks!  We should bump up the weights I'm using for diesel by 12.7%.


Quote from: GuitarStv
Not laws of physics as much as legal ones.  The legal weight limit for a semi truck on US roads is 80,000 lbs (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/policy/rpt_congress/truck_sw_laws/index.htm).  I'm confused how they're legally hauling 75,000 lbs . . . does the truck and bed weigh less than 5,000 lbs?

3) Are you even reading your own links?  From your source: " Federal law controls maximum gross vehicle weights and axle loads on the Interstate System. [...] The report also shows that in some instances, States have laws that allow sizes and weights on non-Interstate highways in excess of the current Federal truck size and weight limits. This is an expected finding, as State laws control maximum gross vehicle sizes and weights on non-Interstate highways, including the NHS."

In California, weights are among the most restrictive in the U.S. Nearby states such as Idaho, Oregon and Washington permit gross vehicle weights up to 105,500 pounds, while Arizona, Nevada and Utah allow a maximum gross weight of 129,000 pounds.

I figured that a heavy goods truck would have to adhere to interstate highway limits to be of much use in the US.  I hadn't really considered bypassing all the interstate highways and taking back roads in order to avoid weight limits.  Does that seem particularly likely?

At any rate, we have no idea what the weight of the Tesla was in the link I was responding to.  The guesstimate of 75,000 lbs seems to have been based upon number of straps used to hold down cargo and the average weight of a regular diesel truck.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1488 on: December 08, 2021, 09:55:43 AM »
On reading of own links - that one with the 100x energy density's very next few sentences claim a 5x EV efficiency bonus, so should have been a 20x multiplier in the back of napkin math (although if we're comparing new diesel efficiency, we should be using 7-10 mpg figure instead of under 5 and a 2.5x EV efficiency bonus).

But with the known current weight-to-kWh ratio of model 3 battery pack, and what seems like an achievable < 2kWh / mile claim from Tesla, you've got pretty straightforward back of napkin math - 13K lbs for a 500 mile range, 18k for a 700 mile range. Reduce a bit with some weight reductions in the rest of the truck and the conclusion is inevitable - battery weight is hardly a deal-breaker. Charging speed / infrastructure is the real barrier.

The 5x energy bonus is a comparison to gas cars (assuming a 15% energy conversion rate for gas).  Diesel engines (like the ones used on most heavy goods vehicles) are a fair bit more efficient, so the comparison doesn't hold for them.

The comparison of range and battery packs of small cars to the energy use of heavy vehicles is problematic.  The small cars get that range without towing anything heavy.  You start towing heavy stuff and their range drops pretty significantly (https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a30121167/electric-car-towing-range/) so bigger batteries are required.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2021, 09:59:15 AM by GuitarStv »

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1489 on: December 08, 2021, 10:06:33 AM »
On reading of own links - that one with the 100x energy density's very next few sentences claim a 5x EV efficiency bonus, so should have been a 20x multiplier in the back of napkin math (although if we're comparing new diesel efficiency, we should be using 7-10 mpg figure instead of under 5 and a 2.5x EV efficiency bonus).

But with the known current weight-to-kWh ratio of model 3 battery pack, and what seems like an achievable < 2kWh / mile claim from Tesla, you've got pretty straightforward back of napkin math - 13K lbs for a 500 mile range, 18k for a 700 mile range. Reduce a bit with some weight reductions in the rest of the truck and the conclusion is inevitable - battery weight is hardly a deal-breaker. Charging speed / infrastructure is the real barrier.

The 5x energy bonus is a comparison to gas cars (assuming a 15% energy conversion rate for gas).  Diesel engines (like the ones used on most heavy goods vehicles) are a fair bit more efficient, so the comparison doesn't hold for them.

The comparison of range and battery packs of small cars to the energy use of heavy vehicles is problematic.  The small cars get that range without towing anything heavy.  You start towing heavy stuff and their range drops pretty significantly (https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a30121167/electric-car-towing-range/) so bigger batteries are required.

Aero is more important than weight. You can't compare a small car towing a trailer with suboptimal aero to an optimized truck/trailer combination.

https://www.rvforum.net/threads/trailer-weight-vs-aerodynamics.62827/

I mentioned the 0-60 times because your math is ignoring the complete picture - you're conflating eMPG with mpg and hypothesizing that a gas Model S would thus get X mpg, and frankly it wouldn't.  Traditional ICE vehicles are simply not capable of combining that level of power with that much efficiency.

It's more complicated than just inventing napkin numbers and making comparisons without context.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1490 on: December 08, 2021, 10:20:07 AM »
On reading of own links - that one with the 100x energy density's very next few sentences claim a 5x EV efficiency bonus, so should have been a 20x multiplier in the back of napkin math (although if we're comparing new diesel efficiency, we should be using 7-10 mpg figure instead of under 5 and a 2.5x EV efficiency bonus).

But with the known current weight-to-kWh ratio of model 3 battery pack, and what seems like an achievable < 2kWh / mile claim from Tesla, you've got pretty straightforward back of napkin math - 13K lbs for a 500 mile range, 18k for a 700 mile range. Reduce a bit with some weight reductions in the rest of the truck and the conclusion is inevitable - battery weight is hardly a deal-breaker. Charging speed / infrastructure is the real barrier.

The 5x energy bonus is a comparison to gas cars (assuming a 15% energy conversion rate for gas).  Diesel engines (like the ones used on most heavy goods vehicles) are a fair bit more efficient, so the comparison doesn't hold for them.

The comparison of range and battery packs of small cars to the energy use of heavy vehicles is problematic.  The small cars get that range without towing anything heavy.  You start towing heavy stuff and their range drops pretty significantly (https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a30121167/electric-car-towing-range/) so bigger batteries are required.

Aero is more important than weight. You can't compare a small car towing a trailer with suboptimal aero to an optimized truck/trailer combination.

https://www.rvforum.net/threads/trailer-weight-vs-aerodynamics.62827/

I mentioned the 0-60 times because your math is ignoring the complete picture - you're conflating eMPG with mpg and hypothesizing that a gas Model S would thus get X mpg, and frankly it wouldn't.  Traditional ICE vehicles are simply not capable of combining that level of power with that much efficiency.

It's more complicated than just inventing napkin numbers and making comparisons without context.

Now who's getting confused about diesel vs gas?  Gas cars aren't great for fuel economy - agreed . . . but diesel tend to be a lot better (the diesel cycle is just much more efficient).  There are 10 here (https://www.evanshalshaw.com/blog/top-10-most-economical-diesel-cars/) that get between 70 and 83 mpg with diesel engines . . . and that includes larger SUVs.  The 52 mpg number that I used is probably actually a little low for diesel.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1491 on: December 08, 2021, 10:32:43 AM »
On reading of own links - that one with the 100x energy density's very next few sentences claim a 5x EV efficiency bonus, so should have been a 20x multiplier in the back of napkin math (although if we're comparing new diesel efficiency, we should be using 7-10 mpg figure instead of under 5 and a 2.5x EV efficiency bonus).

But with the known current weight-to-kWh ratio of model 3 battery pack, and what seems like an achievable < 2kWh / mile claim from Tesla, you've got pretty straightforward back of napkin math - 13K lbs for a 500 mile range, 18k for a 700 mile range. Reduce a bit with some weight reductions in the rest of the truck and the conclusion is inevitable - battery weight is hardly a deal-breaker. Charging speed / infrastructure is the real barrier.

The 5x energy bonus is a comparison to gas cars (assuming a 15% energy conversion rate for gas).  Diesel engines (like the ones used on most heavy goods vehicles) are a fair bit more efficient, so the comparison doesn't hold for them.

The comparison of range and battery packs of small cars to the energy use of heavy vehicles is problematic.  The small cars get that range without towing anything heavy.  You start towing heavy stuff and their range drops pretty significantly (https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a30121167/electric-car-towing-range/) so bigger batteries are required.

Aero is more important than weight. You can't compare a small car towing a trailer with suboptimal aero to an optimized truck/trailer combination.

https://www.rvforum.net/threads/trailer-weight-vs-aerodynamics.62827/

I mentioned the 0-60 times because your math is ignoring the complete picture - you're conflating eMPG with mpg and hypothesizing that a gas Model S would thus get X mpg, and frankly it wouldn't.  Traditional ICE vehicles are simply not capable of combining that level of power with that much efficiency.

It's more complicated than just inventing napkin numbers and making comparisons without context.

Now who's getting confused about diesel vs gas?  Gas cars aren't great for fuel economy - agreed . . . but diesel tend to be a lot better (the diesel cycle is just much more efficient).  There are 10 here (https://www.evanshalshaw.com/blog/top-10-most-economical-diesel-cars/) that get between 70 and 83 mpg with diesel engines . . . and that includes larger SUVs.  The 52 mpg number that I used is probably actually a little low for diesel.

Are you going to address any piece of what I posted, or just continue making utterly irrelevant "comparisons"?

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1492 on: December 08, 2021, 10:40:36 AM »
Are you going to address any piece of what I posted, or just continue making utterly irrelevant "comparisons"?

Not sure exactly what you're looking for?

I didn't hypothesize that a gas model S would get similar mileage to a model X so didn't address that as the comment didn't make any sense to me.  I did post examples of modern diesel vehicles in a similar ballpark performance-wise to a Tesla model 3 that all get better gas mileage than what you seemed to be saying was unreasonable.  The model 3 is the vehicle that we were comparing with.  The model x is a sports car, and gets worse fuel economy . . . still not sure why that matters though.  Maybe you could explain your reasoning a bit more?

JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1493 on: December 08, 2021, 10:51:05 AM »
Are you going to address any piece of what I posted, or just continue making utterly irrelevant "comparisons"?

Not sure exactly what you're looking for?

I didn't hypothesize that a gas model S would get similar mileage to a model X so didn't address that as the comment didn't make any sense to me.  I did post examples of modern diesel vehicles in a similar ballpark performance-wise to a Tesla model 3 that all get better gas mileage than what you seemed to be saying was unreasonable.  The model 3 is the vehicle that we were comparing with.  The model x is a sports car, and gets worse fuel economy . . . still not sure why that matters though.  Maybe you could explain your reasoning a bit more?

Ahh my bad, I read Model S instead of Model 3.  A reasonable comparison would be a BMW 340d xDrive which appears to get around 44mpg combined, as I would still argue that comparing a 97hp subcompact diesel to a 449hp sedan is not apples to apples.  The Model X is not a sports car, but that's irrelevant anyway.

In any case, I was specifically addressing your concerns regarding weight for towing and how a comparison between a sedan towing a trailer and a semi towing a trailer is not going to result in an accurate correlation.  Discussion here: https://www.quora.com/What-s-the-miles-per-gallon-for-an-empty-tractor-trailer-versus-a-full-trailer-load

Quote
So if I'm empty in a place like say Oregon, I will average 6 to 7 mpg, but in Florida it can be over 8mpg considering the flat terrain. Fully gloaded you will generally lose a mpg .
Quote
I average 6.7 loaded (the truck in profile picture) and 7.5 to 8 empty, although I rarely run far empty. And this is dependent on speed, terrain, weather, etc.
Quote
Depends on the truck engine/trans/rear gearing and the type of trailer. Our Volvo that pulls a flatbed gets 12 mpg bobtail(no trailer), 10mpg with trailer(deadhead) and around 6.5–7 loaded(48,000lbs payload grossing around 79,000lbs). Our Kenworth that pulls the same trailer type and weight gets around 7.5–8 loaded. And around the same deadhead.

The delta between empty to loaded is not nearly as significant as one might think.

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1494 on: December 08, 2021, 11:16:48 AM »
The 5x energy bonus is a comparison to gas cars (assuming a 15% energy conversion rate for gas).  Diesel engines (like the ones used on most heavy goods vehicles) are a fair bit more efficient, so the comparison doesn't hold for them.

Please stop abusing handwaving rule of thumb numbers as though they're more accurate than order of magnitude.  Napkin math is hard enough to get close if you're using the actual numbers for energy/power density, built examples, etc.  You can find thermal efficiency curves for various engines, or back-calculate from various other data, and get a lot closer than "100x," "5x," etc.  If you're not going to try to get the stuff you can get real numbers for accurate, you're likely to get within an order of magnitude, at best, which isn't very interesting.

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1495 on: December 08, 2021, 11:19:57 AM »
In any case, I was specifically addressing your concerns regarding weight for towing and how a comparison between a sedan towing a trailer and a semi towing a trailer is not going to result in an accurate correlation.  Discussion here: https://www.quora.com/What-s-the-miles-per-gallon-for-an-empty-tractor-trailer-versus-a-full-trailer-load

Quote
So if I'm empty in a place like say Oregon, I will average 6 to 7 mpg, but in Florida it can be over 8mpg considering the flat terrain. Fully gloaded you will generally lose a mpg .
Quote
I average 6.7 loaded (the truck in profile picture) and 7.5 to 8 empty, although I rarely run far empty. And this is dependent on speed, terrain, weather, etc.
Quote
Depends on the truck engine/trans/rear gearing and the type of trailer. Our Volvo that pulls a flatbed gets 12 mpg bobtail(no trailer), 10mpg with trailer(deadhead) and around 6.5–7 loaded(48,000lbs payload grossing around 79,000lbs). Our Kenworth that pulls the same trailer type and weight gets around 7.5–8 loaded. And around the same deadhead.

The delta between empty to loaded is not nearly as significant as one might think.

Yep.  Totally agree.  That's kinda why I was saying that comparing the little Tesla model 3 and then scaling up for a semi truck isn't very valid.  It's not that Tesla's suck at towing . . . it's that heavier load puts very different power consumption requirements on the vehicle.  You can compare a Tesla model 3 with a small car and draw conclusions from that, but the power draw is going to be very different when towing heavy cargo.

soulpatchmike

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1496 on: December 08, 2021, 11:51:36 AM »
I definitely didn't include thermal efficiency into the back of the napkin style calculations that I was doing, and that does change things a fair bit.  An electric motor is 85 - 90% efficient, and diesel is 30 - 35%, so an electric motor should be about 2.5 (83/33) times more efficient than I was using.

Gas side:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of fuel - 882
Max Cargo Capacity - 49,118

Musk Semi:
Weight of truck - 30,000
Weight of real batteries available today - 35,280
Weight of magical super batteries that are twice as energy dense - 17,640
Max Cargo Capacity - 14,720 (batteries available today) or 32,360 lbs for magical super batteries.

This seems to be in the ballpark of the number that you were using on your website ~ 15,000 lbs for 700 mile range using available technology.  This is much better, but I'd still argue that it doesn't seem likely to replace regular trucks any time soon.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/29449/tesla-semi-prototype-spotted-hauling-75000-pound-load-through-northern-california
"The Tesla's driver told weigh station operators that "the truck is meeting or exceeding the range estimates" with an alleged 75,000-pound test payload of nine concrete blocks on their trailer."

Either they are breaking the laws of physics or your calculations are missing some vital information.  The glaring one to me is the base weight of a diesel semi will be significantly higher due to a huge engine/transmission/cooling systems/large empty gas tanks that are not used on the tesla semi among other legacy heavy design decisions that semi manufacturers use because 'we've always done it that way'...  The base dry weight without battery or fuel could easily be 10k+ lbs less on the tesla.

Here is a truck drivers perspective on how much the tesla weighs.
https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/01/how-much-does-the-tesla-semi-weigh/

Not laws of physics as much as legal ones.  The legal weight limit for a semi truck on US roads is 80,000 lbs (https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/policy/rpt_congress/truck_sw_laws/index.htm).  I'm confused how they're legally hauling 75,000 lbs . . . does the truck and bed weigh less than 5,000 lbs?

Something seems weird there.


EDIT - I read the second article.  So, the weight of the load is being guessed by the number of straps used to tie stuff down?  I wouldn't place a lot of faith in that.

As an aside - I used to load and strap down flatbed trucks working a summer job in university (it was lumber, not concrete) but the number of straps used was generally determined by the rule of "looks about right" . . . not careful calculation of weight.  :P
Fair point on the article.  The one with the driver certainly clarifies the estimates of each component estimating a 40k load/10k trailer and 25k truck(with battery).  By your estimates of 65k for the truck with battery, the cement blocks and trailer together weigh 15k.

There appear to actually be 7 blocks on the truck not 4 blocks on the truck based on this alternate view image.  Trailer width is minimally 96 inches, but likely 102 for standard width.  The blocks are wider than 2ft since it does not appear you could get another on the edge of the trailer assuming they are centered.  2.5ft seems a reasonable width estimate.  Most of the blocks I found from suppliers are same width and height and a longer length.
https://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2019/04/2019-Tesla-Model-S-range-road-trip-Semi-truck.jpg

Semi truck tires are around 39 inches overall diameter.  The blocks are at least 50 inches and potentially 60 inches.  I haven't seen a standard size of 2.5x2.5x4ft block in looking for supplier of these blocks, but 2.5x2.5x5 seems to be a standard size.
https://www.autobodynews.com/media/k2/items/cache/3e708bd2ae0c21e85a157055cae6dcd5_XL.jpg

1600x800x800(~5ftx2.5ftx2.5ft) is 2460kg(5425lbs) each(x7 = 37954 lbs)
https://ppcconcreteproducts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Interlocking-Block-Sizes-Pricelist-May-2021.pdf

If the payload is ~38k that leaves a max of 42k left for the truck, battery and trailer.  From what I can find steel flatbeds weigh between 8k-12klbs.  Lets use 8k for your benefit, that leaves 34k for the truck with battery and the likely overhead they plan for to insure it is road legal.

Also,  Considering the tesla doesn't have empty gas tanks, a huge engine/tranny and cooling system, what dry weight benefit can you give tesla without a battery?  Your numbers have the dry weight of both at 30k.  What is your weight estimates of this flatbed tesla and how far do you think it can go?



JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1497 on: December 08, 2021, 11:59:24 AM »
In any case, I was specifically addressing your concerns regarding weight for towing and how a comparison between a sedan towing a trailer and a semi towing a trailer is not going to result in an accurate correlation.  Discussion here: https://www.quora.com/What-s-the-miles-per-gallon-for-an-empty-tractor-trailer-versus-a-full-trailer-load

Quote
So if I'm empty in a place like say Oregon, I will average 6 to 7 mpg, but in Florida it can be over 8mpg considering the flat terrain. Fully gloaded you will generally lose a mpg .
Quote
I average 6.7 loaded (the truck in profile picture) and 7.5 to 8 empty, although I rarely run far empty. And this is dependent on speed, terrain, weather, etc.
Quote
Depends on the truck engine/trans/rear gearing and the type of trailer. Our Volvo that pulls a flatbed gets 12 mpg bobtail(no trailer), 10mpg with trailer(deadhead) and around 6.5–7 loaded(48,000lbs payload grossing around 79,000lbs). Our Kenworth that pulls the same trailer type and weight gets around 7.5–8 loaded. And around the same deadhead.

The delta between empty to loaded is not nearly as significant as one might think.

Yep.  Totally agree.  That's kinda why I was saying that comparing the little Tesla model 3 and then scaling up for a semi truck isn't very valid.  It's not that Tesla's suck at towing . . . it's that heavier load puts very different power consumption requirements on the vehicle.  You can compare a Tesla model 3 with a small car and draw conclusions from that, but the power draw is going to be very different when towing heavy cargo.

Again, aero is more important than weight.

The link you posted claimed a 50% range drop with a Model X towing, but the real-world examples provided above indicate a 15.36% loss in range for a diesel truck. The presence and ensuing aero drag of a trailer is more significant than the weight.  Increasing net weight for batteries is likely to have an insignificant impact on range.

Code: [Select]
empty loaded loss
6.5 5.5 -0.153846154
7.75 6.7 -0.135483871
10 6.75 -0.325
7.75 7.75 0




average -0.153582506

GuitarStv

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1498 on: December 08, 2021, 12:03:47 PM »
Also,  Considering the tesla doesn't have empty gas tanks, a huge engine/tranny and cooling system, what dry weight benefit can you give tesla without a battery?  Your numbers have the dry weight of both at 30k.  What is your weight estimates of this flatbed tesla and how far do you think it can go?

No idea on the flatbed weight.  There are just too many variables for me to even do back of the napkin calculations on.

My initial point was simply that the battery weight for these things is probably going to be significant enough to cut into cargo capacity when compared to fuel.  And we haven't even really touched on what's going to happen with these things when they go to cold climates and lose 20 - 25% of their range right off the bat.

We're definitely going to need trucks of some sort in the future.  I think it was Syonk who mentioned hybrid systems being a better immediate path forward (for a variety of reasons) and I agree with him.  I also think that we probably need to build more rail (for both shipping and for people transportation) and stop looking to roads to save us - road shipment of goods should be used as a stop gap method of getting from rail yard to rail yard.  Even with electric cars, the environmental costs of running heavy vehicles on roadways is significant.



JLee

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Re: Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?
« Reply #1499 on: December 08, 2021, 12:07:29 PM »
Also,  Considering the tesla doesn't have empty gas tanks, a huge engine/tranny and cooling system, what dry weight benefit can you give tesla without a battery?  Your numbers have the dry weight of both at 30k.  What is your weight estimates of this flatbed tesla and how far do you think it can go?

No idea on the flatbed weight.  There are just too many variables for me to even do back of the napkin calculations on.

My initial point was simply that the battery weight for these things is probably going to be significant enough to cut into cargo capacity when compared to fuel.  And we haven't even really touched on what's going to happen with these things when they go to cold climates and lose 20 - 25% of their range right off the bat.

We're definitely going to need trucks of some sort in the future.  I think it was Syonk who mentioned hybrid systems being a better immediate path forward (for a variety of reasons) and I agree with him.  I also think that we probably need to build more rail (for both shipping and for people transportation) and stop looking to roads to save us - road shipment of goods should be used as a stop gap method of getting from rail yard to rail yard.  Even with electric cars, the environmental costs of running heavy vehicles on roadways is significant.

That is an important factor, too - vehicle weight is not kind to roads, and going EV is not going to help on that front.  https://cait.rutgers.edu/building-the-right-roads-for-the-right-loads/