Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[AlanStache]

...

But I guess nowadays people don't care about if a person is odious or repugnant, personally.  They care about their politics.

I consider politics to be about things like, tax rates, zoning requirements and collective services funding levels.  It is not up for political debate as to whether a person is a person or not.  Being an ass to people you directly interact with is one thing, trying to use the pollical process to make groups of people be legally less than people is something else. 

geekette: thanks looking at charge point now. 

[NorCal]

I’m renting a Mach-E while traveling for my wife’s college reunion.

It’s mostly a good car, although braking is too abrupt.  The nav software needs a lot of work too. This is one of those areas where the software defined cars like Tesla and Rivian just do better. Nav is just such an important part of the user experience when dealing with things like range-on-arrival.

I’m also somewhat baffled by the deliberate design decisions to make it more like a gas car, even in places it doesn’t make sense. For example, why are there separate controls for a parking brake when there is no transmission to put into “park”. Why do they still feel the need for a physical power button?  I haven’t figured out what the low gear does in a vehicle that doesn’t have a physical transmission.

It’s not a bad car by any means, but it seems overpriced for what it is. My value oriented mind thinks that if you build a car that’s 80% as good as a Model Y, similar trim levels should be priced lower than a Model Y.

As someone that owns a Tesla while simultaneously hating what Tesla has become, I still think I’d by a Tesla over the Mach-e if I were making the decision today.

[GilesMM]

I’m renting a Mach-E while traveling for my wife’s college reunion.

It’s mostly a good car, although braking is too abrupt.  The nav software needs a lot of work too. This is one of those areas where the software defined cars like Tesla and Rivian just do better. Nav is just such an important part of the user experience when dealing with things like range-on-arrival.

I’m also somewhat baffled by the deliberate design decisions to make it more like a gas car, even in places it doesn’t make sense. For example, why are there separate controls for a parking brake when there is no transmission to put into “park”. Why do they still feel the need for a physical power button?  I haven’t figured out what the low gear does in a vehicle that doesn’t have a physical transmission.

It’s not a bad car by any means, but it seems overpriced for what it is. My value oriented mind thinks that if you build a car that’s 80% as good as a Model Y, similar trim levels should be priced lower than a Model Y.

As someone that owns a Tesla while simultaneously hating what Tesla has become, I still think I’d by a Tesla over the Mach-e if I were making the decision today.

Low gear on the Mach-E (and other Ford e-products) "simulates" low gear by increasing brake regen when you let off the throttle.  It can be useful when descending steep grades to simulate an engine brake.

[Cranky]

I wonder if the people that won't buy a Tesla because of Musk also use Amazon?  Because Jeff Bezos is also quite a big jerk from what I understand.

Musk has moved beyond Rich Jerk into Bat Shit Crazy, as far as I’m concerned. I would be deeply embarrassed to be seen in a Tesla and there’s a million of them around here.

[Tyson]

I wonder if the people that won't buy a Tesla because of Musk also use Amazon?  Because Jeff Bezos is also quite a big jerk from what I understand.

Musk has moved beyond Rich Jerk into Bat Shit Crazy, as far as I’m concerned. I would be deeply embarrassed to be seen in a Tesla and there’s a million of them around here.

I think he was always bat shit crazy. 

[NorCal]

I’m renting a Mach-E while traveling for my wife’s college reunion.

It’s mostly a good car, although braking is too abrupt.  The nav software needs a lot of work too. This is one of those areas where the software defined cars like Tesla and Rivian just do better. Nav is just such an important part of the user experience when dealing with things like range-on-arrival.

I’m also somewhat baffled by the deliberate design decisions to make it more like a gas car, even in places it doesn’t make sense. For example, why are there separate controls for a parking brake when there is no transmission to put into “park”. Why do they still feel the need for a physical power button?  I haven’t figured out what the low gear does in a vehicle that doesn’t have a physical transmission.

It’s not a bad car by any means, but it seems overpriced for what it is. My value oriented mind thinks that if you build a car that’s 80% as good as a Model Y, similar trim levels should be priced lower than a Model Y.

As someone that owns a Tesla while simultaneously hating what Tesla has become, I still think I’d by a Tesla over the Mach-e if I were making the decision today.

Low gear on the Mach-E (and other Ford e-products) "simulates" low gear by increasing brake regen when you let off the throttle.  It can be useful when descending steep grades to simulate an engine brake.

Good to know, I might use that. The regen is slightly mild for my taste, mostly because of the jerky brakes.

[AccidentialMustache]

I’m renting a Mach-E while traveling for my wife’s college reunion.

It’s mostly a good car, although braking is too abrupt.  The nav software needs a lot of work too. This is one of those areas where the software defined cars like Tesla and Rivian just do better. Nav is just such an important part of the user experience when dealing with things like range-on-arrival.

I’m also somewhat baffled by the deliberate design decisions to make it more like a gas car, even in places it doesn’t make sense. For example, why are there separate controls for a parking brake when there is no transmission to put into “park”. Why do they still feel the need for a physical power button?  I haven’t figured out what the low gear does in a vehicle that doesn’t have a physical transmission.

It’s not a bad car by any means, but it seems overpriced for what it is. My value oriented mind thinks that if you build a car that’s 80% as good as a Model Y, similar trim levels should be priced lower than a Model Y.

As someone that owns a Tesla while simultaneously hating what Tesla has become, I still think I’d by a Tesla over the Mach-e if I were making the decision today.

Low gear on the Mach-E (and other Ford e-products) "simulates" low gear by increasing brake regen when you let off the throttle.  It can be useful when descending steep grades to simulate an engine brake.

Good to know, I might use that. The regen is slightly mild for my taste, mostly because of the jerky brakes.

I would guess that there's a missing software update on the rental? There was one that went through that made the brakes less throw-you-through-the-windshield? Or maybe I'm just used to them by now. Mostly I don't use them and just use 1-pedal in normal drive mode.

The other thing to say on brakes is that the mme does have good stopping power. For 70->0 the fit we have is 197ft (2009), but the mme is 159 (GT PE, not my premium 4x but eh?). Yes the mme has bigger tires, but not that much bigger, 225s (on ours, 245 on GT PE) vs 185s (on 2009, so 1.22/1.32 ratio) while the mass ratio is under, but close to 2x.


There is still a parking pawl that the parking brake controls. Newer software updates will turn it on (and it always turned it off) automatically.


If it got balled up, I probably wouldn't buy another mme and I certainly wouldn't buy a tesla, But the ioniq 5 and 6 would be on the list to test drive for sure.

[Tyson]

If it got balled up, I probably wouldn't buy another mme and I certainly wouldn't buy a tesla, But the ioniq 5 and 6 would be on the list to test drive for sure.

The Ioniqs and Mach E are all great choices.  Well built and practical.  Not only that, the new models will have native NACS plugs.  Current models can charge at superchargers but require an adapter.

[AccidentialMustache]

We’re actually car shopping and I’m surprised at how few options there actually are. There seem to be small cars or really huge SUVs. If you don’t want to do business with Musk the pickings are slim.

There's nothing small because of US large-car/suv preferences and physics. Easier to score a low drag coefficient on slightly longer (eg, larger) vehicle than on something super small and boxy. Our mme's drag coefficient is ~0.28 while the 2009 fit's is 0.33. The mme is taller, wider, longer, and has wider tires, and yet has a lower drag coefficient. Low drag coefficient = longer range.

That said the mme isn't that much bigger than our fit. It is 24" longer, 7" wider, and 4" taller by the numbers. I certainly wouldn't call it a really huge SUV. That's the ev9.

If you want a model y, the mme, id4, ioniq 5, and ev6 are all direct competitors. Pretty much the same size too. The mme can fast-charge on tesla's network, today. I did a 1kwh test charge.

If you want a model 3 then you have slim pickings. I'm not sure the size comparison the ioniq 6 is, but that might be the only "normal" small-car? (eg, not a porsche)

[AccidentialMustache]

If it got balled up, I probably wouldn't buy another mme and I certainly wouldn't buy a tesla, But the ioniq 5 and 6 would be on the list to test drive for sure.

The Ioniqs and Mach E are all great choices.  Well built and practical.  Not only that, the new models will have native NACS plugs.  Current models can charge at superchargers but require an adapter.

I mean I like the mme, but I'm done with driving an hour to take the car to a service center who doesn't screw it up. Also ford's push for software defined car is a huge fail in the mme because they subcontract all the systems and then have to play the integration game and its a disaster coming and going.

They were pushing bluecruise subscriptions really hard with "1.3: coming soon!" That was, mind you, over a year ago. I haven't had an OTA software update land in 4 months, and that update didn't introduce an obvious substantial change. The update before that one? I have no idea. It might be going on a year now.

There is now a years-long bug that has the speed shown on the right hand side of the driver's display, as if the car was in lane-keeping/bluecriuse mode, instead of in a larger font in the center where it is supposed to be.

But I'm sure the new in-car karaoke app will make up for all those problems amirite?

[Tyson]

If it got balled up, I probably wouldn't buy another mme and I certainly wouldn't buy a tesla, But the ioniq 5 and 6 would be on the list to test drive for sure.

The Ioniqs and Mach E are all great choices.  Well built and practical.  Not only that, the new models will have native NACS plugs.  Current models can charge at superchargers but require an adapter.

I mean I like the mme, but I'm done with driving an hour to take the car to a service center who doesn't screw it up. Also ford's push for software defined car is a huge fail in the mme because they subcontract all the systems and then have to play the integration game and its a disaster coming and going.

They were pushing bluecruise subscriptions really hard with "1.3: coming soon!" That was, mind you, over a year ago. I haven't had an OTA software update land in 4 months, and that update didn't introduce an obvious substantial change. The update before that one? I have no idea. It might be going on a year now.

There is now a years-long bug that has the speed shown on the right hand side of the driver's display, as if the car was in lane-keeping/bluecriuse mode, instead of in a larger font in the center where it is supposed to be.

But I'm sure the new in-car karaoke app will make up for all those problems amirite?

True, Teslas are great, the most reliable EV's by a mile.  Safest, too.  But I give some grace to the other manufacturers, because these are all 1st or 2nd gen vehicles for them.  So there's going to be bugs and quirks.  The Model Y is what, the 4th gen for Tesla?  No wonder they are so good, it's a mature product for them.  Others just need to go through the same learning curves.

[NorCal]

I’m renting a Mach-E while traveling for my wife’s college reunion.

It’s mostly a good car, although braking is too abrupt.  The nav software needs a lot of work too. This is one of those areas where the software defined cars like Tesla and Rivian just do better. Nav is just such an important part of the user experience when dealing with things like range-on-arrival.

I’m also somewhat baffled by the deliberate design decisions to make it more like a gas car, even in places it doesn’t make sense. For example, why are there separate controls for a parking brake when there is no transmission to put into “park”. Why do they still feel the need for a physical power button?  I haven’t figured out what the low gear does in a vehicle that doesn’t have a physical transmission.

It’s not a bad car by any means, but it seems overpriced for what it is. My value oriented mind thinks that if you build a car that’s 80% as good as a Model Y, similar trim levels should be priced lower than a Model Y.

As someone that owns a Tesla while simultaneously hating what Tesla has become, I still think I’d by a Tesla over the Mach-e if I were making the decision today.

Low gear on the Mach-E (and other Ford e-products) "simulates" low gear by increasing brake regen when you let off the throttle.  It can be useful when descending steep grades to simulate an engine brake.

Good to know, I might use that. The regen is slightly mild for my taste, mostly because of the jerky brakes.

I would guess that there's a missing software update on the rental? There was one that went through that made the brakes less throw-you-through-the-windshield? Or maybe I'm just used to them by now. Mostly I don't use them and just use 1-pedal in normal drive mode.

The other thing to say on brakes is that the mme does have good stopping power. For 70->0 the fit we have is 197ft (2009), but the mme is 159 (GT PE, not my premium 4x but eh?). Yes the mme has bigger tires, but not that much bigger, 225s (on ours, 245 on GT PE) vs 185s (on 2009, so 1.22/1.32 ratio) while the mass ratio is under, but close to 2x.


There is still a parking pawl that the parking brake controls. Newer software updates will turn it on (and it always turned it off) automatically.


If it got balled up, I probably wouldn't buy another mme and I certainly wouldn't buy a tesla, But the ioniq 5 and 6 would be on the list to test drive for sure.

There’s possibly missing updates, and the things I see as challenges might just be me not knowing where to find things in the interface. As well as things being different than I’m used to.

I previously rented an Ioniq 5, and liked the driving and physical aspects of the car a lot better than the MME.  The software still seemed pretty sub-standard, but I didn’t put too much effort into trying to figure it out.

The thing that hit home for me was reading about VW’s $5B investment in Rivian.  It’s not an investment in Rivian’s specific hardware or even the UI end of their software. It’s the network architecture that brings all of the disparate computers , chips, and logic controllers into a much smaller number of processors.  This is the gating factor for car makers being able to make good software, and I don’t think Ford, GM, or Stellantis can get around this without major changes to their supplier relationships.

[Just Joe]

Does the Scout and the Rivian share any bones?

[LennStar]

True, Teslas are great, the most reliable EV's by a mile. 

Not based on what I have heard. And I guess that is meant without Chinese cars or (electric motor) bikes in consideration?

[Tyson]

True, Teslas are great, the most reliable EV's by a mile. 

Not based on what I have heard. And I guess that is meant without Chinese cars or (electric motor) bikes in consideration?

Consumer reports in the USA  comes out with a report every year about the most and least reliable cars re: cost to repair and Tesla was the least expensive.

[the_gastropod]

Yea, the J.D. Power ratings rank the reliability of the Chevy Bolt and Tesla 3 about the same [1][2] (Bolt is 77/100 and the Tesla 3 is 74/100). I no longer have my consumer reports subscription, but if memory serves, they have similar reliability breakdowns.

I picked up my Bolt a few days ago, and I just couldn't be happier so far. I'm shocked at how fast the thing is. It is unnecessarily quick. It's smooth, it's quiet, and rides really nicely. It's a huge upgrade over our 15 year old Prius.

[1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2023/chevrolet/bolt-ev
[2] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2023/tesla/model-3

[dandarc]

Yeah - EVs are real fun to drive. I actually leave our leaf in Eco-mode after unintentionally spinning the wheels more than once.

[bacchi]

Yea, the J.D. Power ratings rank the reliability of the Chevy Bolt and Tesla 3 about the same [1][2] (Bolt is 77/100 and the Tesla 3 is 74/100). I no longer have my consumer reports subscription, but if memory serves, they have similar reliability breakdowns.

I picked up my Bolt a few days ago, and I just couldn't be happier so far. I'm shocked at how fast the thing is. It is unnecessarily quick. It's smooth, it's quiet, and rides really nicely. It's a huge upgrade over our 15 year old Prius.

[1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2023/chevrolet/bolt-ev
[2] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2023/tesla/model-3

CR's "Used Car Brand Reliability":

"The brands are ranked based on the problems reported by CR members on currently owned 5- to 10-year-old vehicles."

Lexus #1
Toyota #2
Jeep #23
Tesla #24
Dodge #25

Tesla is ranked #14 of 30 for reliability based on the latest 3 model years.

[GilesMM]

Yea, the J.D. Power ratings rank the reliability of the Chevy Bolt and Tesla 3 about the same [1][2] (Bolt is 77/100 and the Tesla 3 is 74/100). I no longer have my consumer reports subscription, but if memory serves, they have similar reliability breakdowns.

I picked up my Bolt a few days ago, and I just couldn't be happier so far. I'm shocked at how fast the thing is. It is unnecessarily quick. It's smooth, it's quiet, and rides really nicely. It's a huge upgrade over our 15 year old Prius.

[1] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2023/chevrolet/bolt-ev
[2] https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2023/tesla/model-3

CR's "Used Car Brand Reliability":

"The brands are ranked based on the problems reported by CR members on currently owned 5- to 10-year-old vehicles."

Lexus #1
Toyota #2
Jeep #23
Tesla #24
Dodge #25

Tesla is ranked #14 of 30 for reliability based on the latest 3 model years.

JD Power has consistently ranked Tesla off the bottom of the scale in terms of reliability, along with Polestar and Rivian.

[NorCal]

Does the Scout and the Rivian share any bones?

Lots of speculation on this, but no details confirmed.

However, given the scope and timelines involved, it’s hard to believe Scout won’t use the licensing Rivian computing architecture.

Scout has also apparently hired a bunch of former Rivian employees, just like Rivian had previously hired a bunch of former Tesla employees.  I expect Scout and Rivian will be very similar.

The biggest surprise to me is that Scout is planning to be a direct to consumer brand with no dealerships. I didn’t think any OEM’s would have the courage to try this.

[Tyson]

This is the one that I meant:

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership-a1854979198/

[AccidentialMustache]

Yeah - EVs are real fun to drive. I actually leave our leaf in Eco-mode after unintentionally spinning the wheels more than once.

Ford worried about that, at least. In a straight line on dry pavement with not-bald tires (including the stock tires) you cannot burn rubber in the mme. Turning? Wet? Sure, you can slide it just a little bit (and pretty easily too).

[Paper Chaser]

Does the Scout and the Rivian share any bones?

Lots of speculation on this, but no details confirmed.

However, given the scope and timelines involved, it’s hard to believe Scout won’t use the licensing Rivian computing architecture.

Scout has also apparently hired a bunch of former Rivian employees, just like Rivian had previously hired a bunch of former Tesla employees.  I expect Scout and Rivian will be very similar.

The biggest surprise to me is that Scout is planning to be a direct to consumer brand with no dealerships. I didn’t think any OEM’s would have the courage to try this.

OEMs have a love/hate relationship with dealer networks. Many would go direct to consumer in a heartbeat, but they'd have to sacrifice their well established brand recognition to do so. Even though they're imitating old International Harvester models, Scout is an all new brand (rather than a model within the VW brand), so it can start from scratch without dealer showrooms.

[Just Joe]

I haven't met too many dealer sales people who knew much about the EV they were selling. Might not be much of a loss. I wonder how these vehicles will be repaired or serviced. Service centers like Tesla?

Tire spinning: we always drive our Kona in Eco b/c it will smoke the front tires. Normal and Eco throttle mapping leaves the accelerator pedal too twitchy for my taste (too much throttle tip in). Harder to drive smoothly in traffic.

[Cranky]

We’re actually car shopping and I’m surprised at how few options there actually are. There seem to be small cars or really huge SUVs. If you don’t want to do business with Musk the pickings are slim.

There's nothing small because of US large-car/suv preferences and physics. Easier to score a low drag coefficient on slightly longer (eg, larger) vehicle than on something super small and boxy. Our mme's drag coefficient is ~0.28 while the 2009 fit's is 0.33. The mme is taller, wider, longer, and has wider tires, and yet has a lower drag coefficient. Low drag coefficient = longer range.

That said the mme isn't that much bigger than our fit. It is 24" longer, 7" wider, and 4" taller by the numbers. I certainly wouldn't call it a really huge SUV. That's the ev9.

If you want a model y, the mme, id4, ioniq 5, and ev6 are all direct competitors. Pretty much the same size too. The mme can fast-charge on tesla's network, today. I did a 1kwh test charge.

If you want a model 3 then you have slim pickings. I'm not sure the size comparison the ioniq 6 is, but that might be the only "normal" small-car? (eg, not a porsche)

We currently have a Subaru Impreza. As we’ve thought about it, our car usage has changed.

When we bought it a decade ago, dh drove it to work and then drove it home, and then we drove to the grocery store on Saturday morning, and that was about it.

Now that we’re retired we do most of our local stuff on foot/bike/bus, and we find ourselves wishing for a tiny bit more cargo room for camping and gardening and trips to Menards. So we not looking for *small* or *huge*, just a little bigger, and we were surprised to walk into three different dealerships and find only huge and expensive.

I’m not worried about charging- there’s a million chargers in my neighborhood- but I am worried about what will fit into our tiny garage.

[Paper Chaser]

Good news? EV sales hit 9% of total new vehicle sales in the US last month, and over 100k each of the last 6 months. Prices/discounts are coming down, and they're sitting on the lot a little longer than their ICE counterparts tend to:

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/ev-market-monitor-september-2024/

Used EVs seem to be more in demand at the moment, as they sit less time and sell for prices closer to their ICE counterparts.

What does this tell us? Well, there's still some demand for EVs, but the average price over $55k still seems to be a hinderance. The less expensive used models are selling faster, and with fewer discounts.

[NorCal]

We’re actually car shopping and I’m surprised at how few options there actually are. There seem to be small cars or really huge SUVs. If you don’t want to do business with Musk the pickings are slim.

There's nothing small because of US large-car/suv preferences and physics. Easier to score a low drag coefficient on slightly longer (eg, larger) vehicle than on something super small and boxy. Our mme's drag coefficient is ~0.28 while the 2009 fit's is 0.33. The mme is taller, wider, longer, and has wider tires, and yet has a lower drag coefficient. Low drag coefficient = longer range.

That said the mme isn't that much bigger than our fit. It is 24" longer, 7" wider, and 4" taller by the numbers. I certainly wouldn't call it a really huge SUV. That's the ev9.

If you want a model y, the mme, id4, ioniq 5, and ev6 are all direct competitors. Pretty much the same size too. The mme can fast-charge on tesla's network, today. I did a 1kwh test charge.

If you want a model 3 then you have slim pickings. I'm not sure the size comparison the ioniq 6 is, but that might be the only "normal" small-car? (eg, not a porsche)

We currently have a Subaru Impreza. As we’ve thought about it, our car usage has changed.

When we bought it a decade ago, dh drove it to work and then drove it home, and then we drove to the grocery store on Saturday morning, and that was about it.

Now that we’re retired we do most of our local stuff on foot/bike/bus, and we find ourselves wishing for a tiny bit more cargo room for camping and gardening and trips to Menards. So we not looking for *small* or *huge*, just a little bigger, and we were surprised to walk into three different dealerships and find only huge and expensive.

I’m not worried about charging- there’s a million chargers in my neighborhood- but I am worried about what will fit into our tiny garage.

I feel like the id.4 fits that mold.  It's a little bit bigger than your Leaf or Bolt, but still a bit smaller than some of the others.  At least it looks that way; I haven't actually measured it.

The Equinox might fit that category as well, although I haven't looked at the details. 

[evme]

Has anyone driven the 2025 Chevrolet Equinox EV yet? I think I read it's one of if not the cheapest EVs available in the US, MSRP $33,600, and with the tax credit that would get it under $30k?

[jinga nation]

TL;DR: The EV is the mostly good part; the charging infrastructure is fragmented, unreliable, and still gives anxiety (to ICE owners).

I'm not an EV owner. However, on a work trip last week to Colorado Springs, I was given a Hyundai Ioniq 5 EV for my compact car reservation, with the rental company telling me they were out of gas cars. The other choice was a Chrsyler Pacifica minivan.

Good little runabout/commuter car, heated seats woohoo! Some quirks. No wireless Apple CarPlay/Android Auto. That feature works only with the USB-A port way up front down there in the deep center console. Like WTF, when there's 2 additional USB-A ports in the center console between driver's and front passenger's seats. Nope doesn't work with those, per the Hyundai forums. Also, USB-A ports are shitty and loose and wonky, good ol' Hyundai Pony quality, I see (let's see if any of y'all remember that car, which lent some of it's exterior design to the Ioniq 5.

Other issue... finding working Level 3 chargers. While the navigation system has POIs for EV chargers, it doesn't let one filter between levels 1/2/3. Which is frustrating, when you're on a long ride, or don't have an overnight to charge, and what you need is an L3 to top up to 80% and move on. The L3 at REI wasn't working, and the L2 was charging at 7 kW (current charge was 60% and I had to return the EV with at least 70% charge remaining). At some hotels, like the ones next to mine, one L2 wasn't working and the other was roped off by the repair crew or was blocked off by management. Finally, I found a pair of L3s at a.... gas station in the north side of town. But there weren't any open restaurants or shops or cafes one could patronize while the EV was charging.

Also, L2 chargers in the adjacent building by my work site weren't working. The ones at the Nissan dealer are for Ariya/Leafs owners only; other users will get their EV towed, per the warning in red bold Arial font/typeface. The ones at the BMW dealer are for BMW owners, even though other EVs can charge there, per the parking lot vulture. But there's nothing around that dealer, so it's a lonely hike to anywhere from there, unless one carries a bike in their vehicle and hop on the trail.

Anyways, the L3 did its thing, at one point charging at up to 125kW and then tapering down once hitting 90%. so 58% to 92% took 37 minutes, cost was $12.50. Pricier than I expected, given that I've charged at Electrify America's HQs in Reston, VA.

The rental did nothing to assuage my anxiety on finding working chargers. I wish there were more chargers, even L2s, and in working order. And the system is so damn fragmented that you have to get an app for Chargepoint, one for EVgo, one for StupidMeAcceptingTheEV. Thankfully everything is expensed.

[Just Joe]

There are aftermarket wireless Apple CarPlay/Android CarPlay bluetooth adapters available for Hyundais and Kias. One time $40 expense. Amazon, etc.

We frequent three towns/cities. Have scouted all the relevant, (in)convenient DCFC equipment.

I charged at a new to me EA DCFC last night just to know where it is in case I need it as a backup. Dark parking lot beside another business. Not a place I'd want to frequent very late at night but everything was fine. Only needed about ~25 minutes of charging to get home. Should have put maybe another 10 minutes of juice in the car b/c I arrived home with ~15% due to the cool weather and PTC heater use. It is a long charger desert between that city and our home town.

Still sussing out what the heater and cold does to the range. Looks like I need to add another 10%-12% more charge to make that trip with the heat on just to be sure. More seat heaters and less PTC heater helps.

At least in our Hyundai despite updated maps, some DCFC networks are invisible to the car's built-in NAV. I have resorted to adding them manually to the address book in case DW is driving in that city alone and needs to charge.

[NorCal]

TL;DR: The EV is the mostly good part; the charging infrastructure is fragmented, unreliable, and still gives anxiety (to ICE owners).

I'm not an EV owner. However, on a work trip last week to Colorado Springs, I was given a Hyundai Ioniq 5 EV for my compact car reservation, with the rental company telling me they were out of gas cars. The other choice was a Chrsyler Pacifica minivan.

Good little runabout/commuter car, heated seats woohoo! Some quirks. No wireless Apple CarPlay/Android Auto. That feature works only with the USB-A port way up front down there in the deep center console. Like WTF, when there's 2 additional USB-A ports in the center console between driver's and front passenger's seats. Nope doesn't work with those, per the Hyundai forums. Also, USB-A ports are shitty and loose and wonky, good ol' Hyundai Pony quality, I see (let's see if any of y'all remember that car, which lent some of it's exterior design to the Ioniq 5.

Other issue... finding working Level 3 chargers. While the navigation system has POIs for EV chargers, it doesn't let one filter between levels 1/2/3. Which is frustrating, when you're on a long ride, or don't have an overnight to charge, and what you need is an L3 to top up to 80% and move on. The L3 at REI wasn't working, and the L2 was charging at 7 kW (current charge was 60% and I had to return the EV with at least 70% charge remaining). At some hotels, like the ones next to mine, one L2 wasn't working and the other was roped off by the repair crew or was blocked off by management. Finally, I found a pair of L3s at a.... gas station in the north side of town. But there weren't any open restaurants or shops or cafes one could patronize while the EV was charging.

Also, L2 chargers in the adjacent building by my work site weren't working. The ones at the Nissan dealer are for Ariya/Leafs owners only; other users will get their EV towed, per the warning in red bold Arial font/typeface. The ones at the BMW dealer are for BMW owners, even though other EVs can charge there, per the parking lot vulture. But there's nothing around that dealer, so it's a lonely hike to anywhere from there, unless one carries a bike in their vehicle and hop on the trail.

Anyways, the L3 did its thing, at one point charging at up to 125kW and then tapering down once hitting 90%. so 58% to 92% took 37 minutes, cost was $12.50. Pricier than I expected, given that I've charged at Electrify America's HQs in Reston, VA.

The rental did nothing to assuage my anxiety on finding working chargers. I wish there were more chargers, even L2s, and in working order. And the system is so damn fragmented that you have to get an app for Chargepoint, one for EVgo, one for StupidMeAcceptingTheEV. Thankfully everything is expensed.

Check out PlugShare and ABRP before your next EV trip. They are much better than the stock nav apps in cars.  This is one area that non-Tesla or non-Rivian vehicles really need to improve.  Because it is a fairly big differentiator.

[VanillaGorilla]

TL;DR: The EV is the mostly good part; the charging infrastructure is fragmented, unreliable, and still gives anxiety (to ICE owners).

Super interesting, thanks for sharing.

The Tesla infrastructure is seamless - the car tells you where the Superchargers are, how many are working and how many are available, and what the rate is. You drive there and plug in. The hardware/software integration is fantastic.

After 1.5 days of driving around the mountains I charged the car this morning. From 80% to 12% we went all of 150 miles. I am very underwhelmed with the range. However, I would find it intolerable if I spent this much on a Kia that couldn't direct me to a working charging station.

Getting the car into the snow today led to finally figuring out how to direct the hot air at my cold feet - shocking this took 3000 miles of driving. Also: the traction is sensational and the traction control is great. Initial forays in snow suggest it's extremely good.

I've also spent many hours evaluating FSD on this trip. Cliff notes: it's good but buggy. Parallel tire tracks on the road (like from a burnout, or a truck skidding) makes it think the lane suddenly jumped over 3 feet, and it reproducibly tries to merge into the other lane or shoulder, which is terrifying. FSD struggles to hold a constant speed, sometimes it creeps down below the speed limit, sometimes it accelerates for no reason.

Autopilot is fantastic though - like cruise control but for the wheel. I really like it.

I'm starting to figure out the voice commands. Anybody who complains about the screen being the only way to control things needs to learn to use voice commands.

[AlanStache]

Kind of shitty that you did not reserve an EV but still had to return at 70%.  Like you did not ask for that and probably did not plain to be near chargers, least the rental place could do is wave the return it full requirement. 

[dandarc]

Last time I rented an EV the charge was $35 for returning with under 70% - about what you'd pay for the prepaid fuel plan on a gas car. If I'm renting at an airport, I pay the pre-paid fuel every single time now. Missed one flight ~12 years ago because I couldn't find a fucking gas station - that ain't happening again when I can fully mitigate that risk for $30-50.

[jinga nation]

Kind of shitty that you did not reserve an EV but still had to return at 70%.  Like you did not ask for that and probably did not plain to be near chargers, least the rental place could do is wave the return it full requirement.

Last time I rented an EV the charge was $35 for returning with under 70% - about what you'd pay for the prepaid fuel plan on a gas car. If I'm renting at an airport, I pay the pre-paid fuel every single time now. Missed one flight ~12 years ago because I couldn't find a fucking gas station - that ain't happening again when I can fully mitigate that risk for $30-50.

I was on travel for the customer (Uncle Sam) hence have to abide by FTR rules, which state:

Travelers are not to be reimbursed for purchasing pre-paid refueling options for rental cars. Therefore, travelers should refuel prior to returning the rental vehicle to the drop-off location. However, if it is not possible to refuel completely prior to returning the vehicle because of safety issues or the location of closest fueling station, travelers will be reimbursed for vendor refueling charges.

There are EV chargers very close to the airport, and the same for gas stations, so prepaid charges would not be kosher with my employer's bean-counters, considering there were 5 of us using the same airport to return to respective home airports. And several gov employees too.

But I prefer the minimum 70% level for returning EVs vs a full tank for ICE vehicles. In 20 years of renting cars for work, I've always received with a full tank, hence had to return full.

I've seen very tempting lease deals for this EV such as

$159/mo
For 24 months with $3,999 due at lease signing includes $7,500 EV Lease Bonus
(SE STANDARD RANGE RWD)

but I work from home 99% of the time, and we have a 5 year old hybrid sedan and a 9 year old small SUV, so really not Mustachian to piss money away on something we don't need.

[dandarc]

Good there's chargers by the airport - didn't realize that was a work trip when I was writing.

One of my FU money things is I'd probably do that pre-paid fuel anyway, even on a work-trip, but then I own the company that pays for any work-related travel I might do, so . . .

ETA: Uncle Sam also might want to re-think that policy as EVs continue rolling out. If I was required by employer or customer to sit a charger for 30 minutes right by the airport, I'm personally billing that time.

[jinga nation]

ETA: Uncle Sam also might want to re-think that policy as EVs continue rolling out. If I was required by employer or customer to sit a charger for 30 minutes right by the airport, I'm personally billing that time.

The trick here is to use a charger inside the airport. Rules state that travel billing starts when one arrives at the airport, and ends when arriving at destination office/hotel/or home if returning. Rules are rules... and I'm a good little worker just following them. ;-)

[Paper Chaser]

Ford will pause Lightning production for the final 6 weeks of the year. They're offering retirement packages to any of the assembly line workers who want them, and reassigning the rest to build ICE trucks:

https://electrek.co/2024/10/31/ford-shut-down-f-150-lightning-production-nearly-two-months/

Lightning production is scheduled to resume in January, but nobody knows at what rate. Ford's strategy to build one-off EVs to quickly enter the market paid early dividends, but they won't have any new EVs on a shared, scalable platform until 2027 (assuming they can produce their new LFP batteries in 2026 as scheduled). If interest rates stay around current levels, then Ford's EV sales are likely to wane over the next couple of years until the new, cheaper, scalable platforms arrive. This is not great for EV adoption, but could lead to some decent deals on Ford's current generation EVs. Particularly if the economy hits a snag.

[LD_TAndK]

Why do car manufacturers brains seemingly shut off when they start designing an electric vehicle? I've been test driving for a couple years now and find some bizarre irritating design decision in every EV I sit in. Meanwhile their gas counterparts are spared these ideas, and keep closer to utilitarian principles.

There's always massively compromised rear cargo area due to a sloped roof which I can forgive for aerodynamics, but most of these EVs put up shitty efficiency numbers, excepting tesla.

There's frameless windows, stupid motorized non-handled doors, capacitive touch buttons, awful laggy user interfaces that have to be used for basic car functions, software subscriptions, poor use of interior space, enormous expensive tires, flashy expensive exteriors and excessive LED arrays, staggered front-rear tires.

A relative died recently and we inherited their 2015 forester. Driving this thing is a goddamn relief. ZERO bullshit. Only problem is it burns gas. Why can't I buy the electric version of a 2015 forester?

[Bartlebooth]

Why do car manufacturers brains seemingly shut off when they start designing an electric vehicle? I've been test driving for a couple years now and find some bizarre irritating design decision in every EV I sit in. Meanwhile their gas counterparts are spared these ideas, and keep closer to utilitarian principles.

There's always massively compromised rear cargo area due to a sloped roof which I can forgive for aerodynamics, but most of these EVs put up shitty efficiency numbers, excepting tesla.

There's frameless windows, stupid motorized non-handled doors, capacitive touch buttons, awful laggy user interfaces that have to be used for basic car functions, software subscriptions, poor use of interior space, enormous expensive tires, flashy expensive exteriors and excessive LED arrays, staggered front-rear tires.

A relative died recently and we inherited their 2015 forester. Driving this thing is a goddamn relief. ZERO bullshit. Only problem is it burns gas. Why can't I buy the electric version of a 2015 forester?

I'll speculate that the younger, excited engineering talent goes to the EV teams.  Less of the stodgy, experienced, grumpy people saying "no" to fun ideas.  They don't want to risk a layoff when EVs don't pan out so stay on ICE products to ride out the rest of their career.

[Paper Chaser]

Why do car manufacturers brains seemingly shut off when they start designing an electric vehicle? I've been test driving for a couple years now and find some bizarre irritating design decision in every EV I sit in. Meanwhile their gas counterparts are spared these ideas, and keep closer to utilitarian principles.

There's always massively compromised rear cargo area due to a sloped roof which I can forgive for aerodynamics, but most of these EVs put up shitty efficiency numbers, excepting tesla.

There's frameless windows, stupid motorized non-handled doors, capacitive touch buttons, awful laggy user interfaces that have to be used for basic car functions, software subscriptions, poor use of interior space, enormous expensive tires, flashy expensive exteriors and excessive LED arrays, staggered front-rear tires.

A relative died recently and we inherited their 2015 forester. Driving this thing is a goddamn relief. ZERO bullshit. Only problem is it burns gas. Why can't I buy the electric version of a 2015 forester?

EVs are expensive to make, so car makers look to reduce costs in other areas. That's the real driver behind touch screen functions replacing actual buttons, fewer parts being used for vehicle trim, more simple interior panels, etc.

They market these cost cutting moves as being sleek, minimalist, futuristic, and even luxurious but they're often just worse versions of things that have been working well for decades, and don't really need to be reinvented.

[Just Joe]

A relative died recently and we inherited their 2015 forester. Driving this thing is a goddamn relief. ZERO bullshit. Only problem is it burns gas. Why can't I buy the electric version of a 2015 forester?

We bought an EV with a many buttons as possible. Wishing we could buy an electric version of our late 90s Honda. We still like our EV very much but the touchscreen novelty wears off.

I can accept the touchscreen for entertainment controls but like you said, all the mundane things ought to be a button or knob.

I have read claims that say the touchscreen exists b/c it is cheaper to build a GUI and CANBUS than a complicated wiring harness and buttons. Also weight.

[Tyson]

A relative died recently and we inherited their 2015 forester. Driving this thing is a goddamn relief. ZERO bullshit. Only problem is it burns gas. Why can't I buy the electric version of a 2015 forester?

We bought an EV with a many buttons as possible. Wishing we could buy an electric version of our late 90s Honda. We still like our EV very much but the touchscreen novelty wears off.

I can accept the touchscreen for entertainment controls but like you said, all the mundane things ought to be a button or knob.

I have read claims that say the touchscreen exists b/c it is cheaper to build a GUI and CANBUS than a complicated wiring harness and buttons. Also weight.

Ioniq's have regular buttons.  And in 2025 they will have native NACS chargers so they can charge at Tesla super chargers without an adapter.

[bill1827]

My Ioniq electric only has buttons for the demisters and steering wheel controls. It has dedicated touch buttons for some functions, which are pretty horrible. Maybe the newer ones have reverted to actual tactile controls.

In Europe we're lucky. All EVs, including Teslas have to standardise on CCS connectors so we can already charge at some superchargers (not all are open to non Teslas).

[LD_TAndK]

Does anyone have experience with the 2024 Volkswagen ID.4? I'm seeing really good deals on it that make me willing to put up with all my dislikes

My reservation is that we're a one car family and if the 2024 ID.4 is in and out of the shop it'd be a major PITA. Is it truly as unreliable as the anecdotes I'm seeing online?

[RWD]

Does anyone have experience with the 2024 Volkswagen ID.4? I'm seeing really good deals on it that make me willing to put up with all my dislikes

My reservation is that we're a one car family and if the 2024 ID.4 is in and out of the shop it'd be a major PITA. Is it truly as unreliable as the anecdotes I'm seeing online?

I believe there are a few ID.4 owners on here. @Abe (hasn't been active since April) and @nereo at least.

[GilesMM]

Does anyone have experience with the 2024 Volkswagen ID.4? I'm seeing really good deals on it that make me willing to put up with all my dislikes

My reservation is that we're a one car family and if the 2024 ID.4 is in and out of the shop it'd be a major PITA. Is it truly as unreliable as the anecdotes I'm seeing online?

I thought VW was doing a massive recall on those and halted US production. Did they resume?

[nereo]

Does anyone have experience with the 2024 Volkswagen ID.4? I'm seeing really good deals on it that make me willing to put up with all my dislikes

My reservation is that we're a one car family and if the 2024 ID.4 is in and out of the shop it'd be a major PITA. Is it truly as unreliable as the anecdotes I'm seeing online?

I believe there are a few ID.4 owners on here. @Abe (hasn't been active since April) and @nereo at least.

Yes, we have a 2023 ID.4 and it’s been a great car for us, though not without its hiccups. Worth noting that it’s one of the longer-produced EVs in Europe and there are loads of them there. Ours was among those with the “mandatory recall -stop sale” for the seal around thrr ed door handle. No evidence ours was actually impacted (no water egress) and it was fixed with a loaner. Highly annoying but seems not all that unusual these days. Other frustrations are mild “rich people problems” - why German cars all seem to have crappy cup holders is baffling to me, and some designer tried to get needlessly complicated with the window switches. Nav isn’t great but I almost exclusively connect via my phone, so this is a non issue.

On the positive sides, it’s fun to drive, great acceleration, range is as pretty darn accurate and adjusts on the fly (like if you suddenly crank the heat and accelerate up to 75mph). Other things, like the interior lighting and windshield alert lighting are extremely well done and something I never thought about until I had the ID.4. Now I’m
Annoyed by most other cars. Likewise backup camera is sharp and performs well in the dark. The 360° proximity sensors work better than most cars and I find them very useful in tight parking lots.

FWIW we were disappointed that our original order for one built in the Wolfsburg plant got switched to the (then not even completed) Chattanooga plant. IME new production lines are almost always plagued by problems, regardless of company or country. One of the reasons we went with the ID.4 when we did was the 6 year production history. Fate changed that on us. Oh well.

We would buy one today  if for some reason we were buying another car.

[NorCal]

Does anyone have experience with the 2024 Volkswagen ID.4? I'm seeing really good deals on it that make me willing to put up with all my dislikes

My reservation is that we're a one car family and if the 2024 ID.4 is in and out of the shop it'd be a major PITA. Is it truly as unreliable as the anecdotes I'm seeing online?

I haven't driven one myself, but a neighbor has one.  They've had only good things to say about it. 

What're your plans for longer road trips?  I'd say the specs on the id.4 make it a good road trip vehicle, but I'd cross-shop the Ioniq 5 or EV6 if you plan to do lots and lots of long range driving.

A good test is to put your common road trips in ABRP (a better route planner) to see how charging will impact the places you road trip to.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

Now that Trump is "47", will this be negative for EV adoption in the US?  He has spoken negatively of EVs but is now bought and paid for by Musk.  If, GOP sweeps House and Senate too, I expect the EV credit will go away in 26.