Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[Paper Chaser]

Like Rivian, there is both a truck and SUV bodystyle for the Hummer EV:




Looking at the Hummer truck is easy to see similarities with the Silverado EV

[NorCal]

Like Rivian, there is both a truck and SUV bodystyle for the Hummer EV:




Looking at the Hummer truck is easy to see similarities with the Silverado EV

They’ve also announced another truck. I think it’s the Denali.


All 3 are nearly the same vehicle underneath with different branding and body panels. It’s a very GM thing.

[neo von retorch]

All 3 are nearly the same vehicle underneath with different branding and body panels. It’s a very GM thing.

GM does this a lot. The Silverado / Sierra, Colorado / Canyon, as well as several of their SUV trims.

So as the Chevy EV is a Silvero, this is a GMC Sierra EV. Denali is a "fancy" high level trim across their models. And typical of GM, only the top trim level is available (to start.) $90K.

[GilesMM]

All 3 are nearly the same vehicle underneath with different branding and body panels. It’s a very GM thing.

GM does this a lot. The Silverado / Sierra, Colorado / Canyon, as well as several of their SUV trims.

...

Almost all automakers do this as it allows them amortize their R&D costs over a much larger population of vehicles sharing the same "platform" (to use the technical term) rather than just a single model.  GM's "Ultium" platform is used for a bunch of EVs (Hummer, GMC, Chevy & Cadillac) as shown here .

[Just Joe]

I towed ~3500 lbs with a Lightning and saw about 1.25 - 1.5 mi/kwh.

Definitely prefer our Kona getting between 4mi and 5mi per KWH. Have seen better and have seen worse but almost all our miles so far have been in that range. The car tells me it has averaged about 4.4 mi/kwh since we bought it ~8000 miles ago.

[Paper Chaser]

All 3 are nearly the same vehicle underneath with different branding and body panels. It’s a very GM thing.

GM does this a lot. The Silverado / Sierra, Colorado / Canyon, as well as several of their SUV trims.

...

Almost all automakers do this as it allows them amortize their R&D costs over a much larger population of vehicles sharing the same "platform" (to use the technical term) rather than just a single model.  GM's "Ultium" platform is used for a bunch of EVs (Hummer, GMC, Chevy & Cadillac) as shown here .

Just a small correction, Ultium is (or was) GM's branding for their modular batteries and motors. It's not the name of the specific platform for the EVs. The Hummer, Silverado EV, Sierra EV, etc are built on the BT1 platform using Ultium batteries. This platform is for large, body on frame EV trucks and SUVs.
Smaller EV crossovers and cars with unibody construction like the Equinox EV or Lyriq are built on the BEV3 platform using Ultium batteries.

And apparently GM is now ditching the Ultium branding for their batteries to make things less confusing.

[neo von retorch]

And apparently GM is now ditching the Ultium branding for their batteries to make things less confusing.

I don't know if it's "confusing" but the branding effort wasn't helping them. And they may be divesting somewhat from LG Chem. They are making their own "R&D" operation and hoping to have more flexibility in the kinds of batteries they utilize for specific vehicle classes.

[LennStar]

Silverado EV's really only get 1.5 miles per kwh?

LOL
I finally got myself an ebike. On full support (basically the motor does all the work if you aren't going steep uphill) it goes at least 25km. That would be... 43miles per kWh, and this cheap bike has no recuperation or any fancy stuff.

[nereo]

Silverado EV's really only get 1.5 miles per kwh?

LOL
I finally got myself an ebike. On full support (basically the motor does all the work if you aren't going steep uphill) it goes at least 25km. That would be... 43miles per kWh, and this cheap bike has no recuperation or any fancy stuff.

Not even comparing apples to oranges here

[LennStar]

Silverado EV's really only get 1.5 miles per kwh?

LOL
I finally got myself an ebike. On full support (basically the motor does all the work if you aren't going steep uphill) it goes at least 25km. That would be... 43miles per kWh, and this cheap bike has no recuperation or any fancy stuff.

No, just 2 vehicles that overwhelming carry one person.
At least 95% of people that buy such a vehicle - ICE or BEV does not matter - should get a facepunch. That's all I am saying.

Not even comparing apples to oranges here

[neo von retorch]

https://insideevs.com/reviews/736604/chevrolet-silverado-ev-range-test/

In this highway test, the Silverado EV got 2.0 Mi / kWh over 441 miles (on one charge.)

[NorCal]

https://insideevs.com/reviews/736604/chevrolet-silverado-ev-range-test/

In this highway test, the Silverado EV got 2.0 Mi / kWh over 441 miles (on one charge.)

I was just looking up the same thing.  The reviews I've seen show that Chevy seems to be a little more conservative with range estimates than other manufactures.

Still, I think the GM truck EV's were designed by people that have never driven or owned an EV.  They added ALL THE MILES but neglected the important aspects of efficiency.

Efficiency is huge for both user experience and for keeping costs under control.

But there is a market for it.  People that do want to tow with their truck want something with this level of range.

[VanillaGorilla]

As the new owner of a "long range" Tesla I have been sorely disappointed by the road trip performance of the car. After reading so many glowing reviews (including MMM's and 1500 Days') I expected a good long-drive experience. I've taken it on two longer trips: 700 miles round trip a few weeks ago, and 400 miles today.

The usable range is 200 miles, and that's generous. This morning we drove 183 miles going from 80% charge to 13% charge, and the last 50 miles I reduced speed, nervous about range. If there were any hiccup - say, a crash that closed the freeway, or a fire that rerouted it, we'd have been stranded. A note: for battery longevity and reasonable charging speed, Tesla recommends not charging past 80% capacity except when strictly necessary. So claiming a 300 mile EPA range is from 100% to dead, and my ICE car will go 600 miles by the same criterion.

Everything else about the car is excellent. The charging speed is great, the software integration and charging infrastructure are excellent. The power is incredible, the handling good, it's a nice car.

The range is a very serious limitation. 200 miles "full" to "empty" is just a total nonstarter for many people across this country. And even when it's not prohibitive, it's significantly less safe than an ICE car in terms of being able to wait out bad weather, handle closed roads, evacuate during natural disasters, or other emergencies.

Another unpleasant surprise: the car is less economical to operate than a modern hybrid. A typical Tesla consumption is 275 wh/mi and so far I've been unable to supercharge at less than $0.46/kwh, giving about 12c/mi. A 45mpg hybrid at $4/gal is 8c/mi. So my Tesla costs fifty percent more more to drive in "fuel" than my $10,000 eleven year old Toyota. Disappointing.

These are early impressions and people who value acceleration and performance more than pure long distance performance will undoubtedly be far more enamored with these cars, but as a rigorously pragmatic Mustachian I am disappointed.

[Paper Chaser]

As the new owner of a "long range" Tesla I have been sorely disappointed by the road trip performance of the car. After reading so many glowing reviews (including MMM's and 1500 Days') I expected a good long-drive experience. I've taken it on two longer trips: 700 miles round trip a few weeks ago, and 400 miles today.

The usable range is 200 miles, and that's generous. This morning we drove 183 miles going from 80% charge to 13% charge, and the last 50 miles I reduced speed, nervous about range. If there were any hiccup - say, a crash that closed the freeway, or a fire that rerouted it, we'd have been stranded. A note: for battery longevity and reasonable charging speed, Tesla recommends not charging past 80% capacity except when strictly necessary. So claiming a 300 mile EPA range is from 100% to dead, and my ICE car will go 600 miles by the same criterion.

Everything else about the car is excellent. The charging speed is great, the software integration and charging infrastructure are excellent. The power is incredible, the handling good, it's a nice car.

The range is a very serious limitation. 200 miles "full" to "empty" is just a total nonstarter for many people across this country. And even when it's not prohibitive, it's significantly less safe than an ICE car in terms of being able to wait out bad weather, handle closed roads, evacuate during natural disasters, or other emergencies.

Another unpleasant surprise: the car is less economical to operate than a modern hybrid. A typical Tesla consumption is 275 wh/mi and so far I've been unable to supercharge at less than $0.46/kwh, giving about 12c/mi. A 45mpg hybrid at $4/gal is 8c/mi. So my Tesla costs fifty percent more more to drive in "fuel" than my $10,000 eleven year old Toyota. Disappointing.

These are early impressions and people who value acceleration and performance more than pure long distance performance will undoubtedly be far more enamored with these cars, but as a rigorously pragmatic Mustachian I am disappointed.

Tesla's range testing technique results in lower real world range than rated range. It's pretty well known by now. EVs are also sort of the opposite from ICEs in where they are most efficient. High speed, long distance driving kills range quickly. Especially if you're using lots of HVAC. Low speed driving, or sitting in traffic has much lower impact on range. Really, we need to see city range and highway range shown on certifications similar to what's done with ICEs. That will paint a much clearer picture for consumers in a format that we're already used to.

Public charging, especially Level 3 charging like a Tesla Supercharger will often rival or exceed fuel costs. This is also pretty well known at this point. People relying on those chargers will pay more long term. The big benefit of an EV when it comes to charging is being able to charge at home at what are often much lower rates, and more convenient.

Nobody in their right mind would say that EVs are best suited for long range road trips or relying heavily on public charging. It can be done, as you've noted, but it's not where they excel. While they can be used for longer trips, they're better suited for tasks like commuting or doing shorter daily driving tasks. This is another reason why I continue to prefer PHEVs. They offer the best of both worlds, with EV driving for the duty cycles that EVs are best suited for, as well as hybrid ICE driving for the cases with longer drives and easier/cheaper fueling on the road.

[NorCal]

As the new owner of a "long range" Tesla I have been sorely disappointed by the road trip performance of the car. After reading so many glowing reviews (including MMM's and 1500 Days') I expected a good long-drive experience. I've taken it on two longer trips: 700 miles round trip a few weeks ago, and 400 miles today.

The usable range is 200 miles, and that's generous. This morning we drove 183 miles going from 80% charge to 13% charge, and the last 50 miles I reduced speed, nervous about range. If there were any hiccup - say, a crash that closed the freeway, or a fire that rerouted it, we'd have been stranded. A note: for battery longevity and reasonable charging speed, Tesla recommends not charging past 80% capacity except when strictly necessary. So claiming a 300 mile EPA range is from 100% to dead, and my ICE car will go 600 miles by the same criterion.

Everything else about the car is excellent. The charging speed is great, the software integration and charging infrastructure are excellent. The power is incredible, the handling good, it's a nice car.

The range is a very serious limitation. 200 miles "full" to "empty" is just a total nonstarter for many people across this country. And even when it's not prohibitive, it's significantly less safe than an ICE car in terms of being able to wait out bad weather, handle closed roads, evacuate during natural disasters, or other emergencies.

Another unpleasant surprise: the car is less economical to operate than a modern hybrid. A typical Tesla consumption is 275 wh/mi and so far I've been unable to supercharge at less than $0.46/kwh, giving about 12c/mi. A 45mpg hybrid at $4/gal is 8c/mi. So my Tesla costs fifty percent more more to drive in "fuel" than my $10,000 eleven year old Toyota. Disappointing.

These are early impressions and people who value acceleration and performance more than pure long distance performance will undoubtedly be far more enamored with these cars, but as a rigorously pragmatic Mustachian I am disappointed.

Charging to 100% is something to avoid for your day to day driving, but is fine to do for roadtrips.

What actually damages the battery over the long term is charging it to 100% and leaving it at a high state-of-charge for long periods.  Charging it to 100% and then discharging it while driving isn’t considered harmful.

The range anxiety bit will go away with some experience. Being stuck in traffic uses near-zero range, and you can truly drive to zero range. I don’t recommend it, but there are people that cut it to 1%. Just like gas cars, there’s a small buffer on the other side of 0% on many EV’s (I don’t know about Tesla specifically).

Two tips for making things more economical are maximizing your residential charging. ~500 miles of a road trip can be home charging (your first 300 miles and you come home nearly empty), and you can find free or cheap L2 charging near wherever you happen to be staying.

You can also sometimes find places that have installed ChargePoint DCFC (of varying speeds) with cheap electricity. You’d need a CCS adapter to take advantage of these, so I’d only recommend it if you happened on these locations a lot.  Plughaare is a good spot to see options around your common destinations.

I’m sorry to hear that you experience has been subpar. I hope it improves over time.

[GilesMM]

As the new owner of a "long range" Tesla I have been sorely disappointed by the road trip performance of the car. After reading so many glowing reviews (including MMM's and 1500 Days') I expected a good long-drive experience. I've taken it on two longer trips: 700 miles round trip a few weeks ago, and 400 miles today.

The usable range is 200 miles, and that's generous. This morning we drove 183 miles going from 80% charge to 13% charge, and the last 50 miles I reduced speed, nervous about range. If there were any hiccup - say, a crash that closed the freeway, or a fire that rerouted it, we'd have been stranded. A note: for battery longevity and reasonable charging speed, Tesla recommends not charging past 80% capacity except when strictly necessary. So claiming a 300 mile EPA range is from 100% to dead, and my ICE car will go 600 miles by the same criterion.

Everything else about the car is excellent. The charging speed is great, the software integration and charging infrastructure are excellent. The power is incredible, the handling good, it's a nice car.

The range is a very serious limitation. 200 miles "full" to "empty" is just a total nonstarter for many people across this country. And even when it's not prohibitive, it's significantly less safe than an ICE car in terms of being able to wait out bad weather, handle closed roads, evacuate during natural disasters, or other emergencies.

Another unpleasant surprise: the car is less economical to operate than a modern hybrid. A typical Tesla consumption is 275 wh/mi and so far I've been unable to supercharge at less than $0.46/kwh, giving about 12c/mi. A 45mpg hybrid at $4/gal is 8c/mi. So my Tesla costs fifty percent more more to drive in "fuel" than my $10,000 eleven year old Toyota. Disappointing.

These are early impressions and people who value acceleration and performance more than pure long distance performance will undoubtedly be far more enamored with these cars, but as a rigorously pragmatic Mustachian I am disappointed.

Tesla's range testing technique results in lower real world range than rated range. It's pretty well known by now. EVs are also sort of the opposite from ICEs in where they are most efficient. High speed, long distance driving kills range quickly. Especially if you're using lots of HVAC. Low speed driving, or sitting in traffic has much lower impact on range. Really, we need to see city range and highway range shown on certifications similar to what's done with ICEs. That will paint a much clearer picture for consumers in a format that we're already used to.

Public charging, especially Level 3 charging like a Tesla Supercharger will often rival or exceed fuel costs. This is also pretty well known at this point. People relying on those chargers will pay more long term. The big benefit of an EV when it comes to charging is being able to charge at home at what are often much lower rates, and more convenient.

Nobody in their right mind would say that EVs are best suited for long range road trips or relying heavily on public charging. It can be done, as you've noted, but it's not where they excel. While they can be used for longer trips, they're better suited for tasks like commuting or doing shorter daily driving tasks. This is another reason why I continue to prefer PHEVs. They offer the best of both worlds, with EV driving for the duty cycles that EVs are best suited for, as well as hybrid ICE driving for the cases with longer drives and easier/cheaper fueling on the road.

Yes and no.  I would not not call a PHEV "the best" of long-range driving.  You are dragging a useless massive heavy battery along with for the ride which greatly degrades MPG while taking up space.  I had the unpleasant experience of being given a Wrangler PHEV as a rental which I bashed from Chicago to Oregon over the summer and it was horrific.  Handling-wise, there was something about the regnerative braking which made it feel like the weight was pitched forward the whole trip, even when the brakes weren't in use by the driver.  It was like the ICE was pushing us forward and the hybrid system was mashing the brakes or something in hopes of getting some juice (which, of course, it never did; the battery went to 0% after the first hour of the trip and never recovered).

Electric cars are fine if you want a cheapo in town grocery getter or commuter and don't mind being cutting edge with styling, etc.  I admire those who pick up a Bolt or Leaf for a few grand and drive them to death.  The higher end electric cars don't seem worth the money as they face problems of resalability, build quality, or even manufacturer viability.   But give it 5-10 years and maybe batteries will be good enough to get 1,000 miles out of something fairly compact and lightweight that recharges in 5 minutes from 110v.

[LennStar]

that recharges in 5 minutes from 110v.

That is not a problem, you can do that today. If you don't mind burning down your whole neighborhood.

[bacchi]

Yes and no.  I would not not call a PHEV "the best" of long-range driving.  You are dragging a useless massive heavy battery along with for the ride which greatly degrades MPG while taking up space.  I had the unpleasant experience of being given a Wrangler PHEV as a rental which I bashed from Chicago to Oregon over the summer and it was horrific.  Handling-wise, there was something about the regnerative braking which made it feel like the weight was pitched forward the whole trip, even when the brakes weren't in use by the driver.  It was like the ICE was pushing us forward and the hybrid system was mashing the brakes or something in hopes of getting some juice (which, of course, it never did; the battery went to 0% after the first hour of the trip and never recovered).

This is car dependent; you drove a Jeep after all. Our Prime gets 53 mpg at highway speeds, slightly better than our previous 2014 model, and 5m/kwh in the city. The current tank/trip odometer is 60% BEV, which includes a day trip out of town (using gas) to see relatives.

The battery does take up space. There's less cargo room compared to the 2014 (but the styling changed too).

[RWD]

But give it 5-10 years and maybe batteries will be good enough to get 1,000 miles out of something fairly compact and lightweight that recharges in 5 minutes from 110v.

Good lord you're trolling hard today. Back-of-the-envelope conservative math would estimate you'd need to pull over 20,000 amps from that 110V outlet.

[Paper Chaser]

Nobody in their right mind would say that EVs are best suited for long range road trips or relying heavily on public charging. It can be done, as you've noted, but it's not where they excel. While they can be used for longer trips, they're better suited for tasks like commuting or doing shorter daily driving tasks. This is another reason why I continue to prefer PHEVs. They offer the best of both worlds, with EV driving for the duty cycles that EVs are best suited for, as well as hybrid ICE driving for the cases with longer drives and easier/cheaper fueling on the road.

Yes and no.  I would not not call a PHEV "the best" of long-range driving.  You are dragging a useless massive heavy battery along with for the ride which greatly degrades MPG while taking up space.  I had the unpleasant experience of being given a Wrangler PHEV as a rental which I bashed from Chicago to Oregon over the summer and it was horrific.  Handling-wise, there was something about the regnerative braking which made it feel like the weight was pitched forward the whole trip, even when the brakes weren't in use by the driver.  It was like the ICE was pushing us forward and the hybrid system was mashing the brakes or something in hopes of getting some juice (which, of course, it never did; the battery went to 0% after the first hour of the trip and never recovered).

That sounds like a Jeep specific issue to me, combined with jumping into an unfamiliar vehicle for the first time. Jeep's hybrid system is known for having limited improvement on fuel economy outside of using the EV range. It was also in a brick-shaped Wrangler that's not engineered for high speed efficiency. Weight has a negligible impact on highway efficiency, so you're not really penalized for having the battery there. It probably weighs about as much as 2-3 average adults. Highway range or efficiency really comes down to aerodynamics, gearing and rolling resistance. The Wrangler has none of that going it's way. They're horrible to drive on long high speed trips no matter what kind of energy they're using for propulsion.

My PHEV sedan gives me the option of saving EV range for anytime I want to deploy it. I don't know about Jeep's PHEV specifically, but I'm pretty sure they have that capability as it's been a very common feature on PHEVs for several years. I can choose to deploy the EV system when it makes the most sense, and deactivate it when it would be less efficient. When the EV mode is not in use, the car operates as a normal hybrid getting ~45mpg highway in a 10 year old mid-size sedan in my case, or as a regular Wrangler in your case.

I'd argue that the best way to have used the Wrangler hybrid would be to save the EV range for the destination. They're designed to use the EV stuff around town for daily driving, or save it to silently wheel around off road once you've gotten to your destination. Draining the entire battery in the first few highway miles isn't using it as intended, and misuse of a tool always leads to dissatisfaction.

[VanillaGorilla]

If everything else was constant and most EVs would give you 400 miles of usable range, I would bet that most drivers in the US would find the experience to be different but equally good as current ICE technology, and quite compelling. 200 miles of usable range simply relegates EVs to specific tasks, and they're simply too expensive to be niche vehicles.

Other curiosities - Superchargers are amazing, easy to use, very fast and quite ubiquitous where I live, but they tend to be placed in suboptimal places for longer trips. Typically they're in large parking lots or the outskirts of town, without any amenities. If/when gas stations start installing chargers their infrastructure will be extremely valuable.

I watched the NYT interview with RJ Scaringe where he argued that EVs are unequivocally the future of personal transport, citing in part the California and EU mandates to abolish sales of ICE vehicles by 2035, and the more experience I get with this Tesla the more curious I find that perspective. He pushes the narrative that EVs are critical to making the planet habitable in the future, so I looked up the numbers, and personal vehicles account for about 10% of global emissions. EVs produce roughly half the emissions of ICE cars, so even if we transformed every single car, truck, and van into an EV we still would only reduce global emissions by about 5%. This could easily be accomplished via more traditional technologies. Imagine a fleet of PHEVs running ethanol, or synthetic petroleum.

IMO the EV craze is overblow. I cannot imagine a ten year future without a healthy mix of technologies. Some people will love EVs. Some people will cling to ICE. Many people, I suspect, will find a happy medium with hybrid or plugin hybrids.

[Just Joe]

The problem with long distances is the ~50 cents / KWH at DCFCs. It surely adds up. I feel like DCFC operators are matching the cost of gasoline.They need to pay for the DCFC equipment and land lease somehow.

Still, for our sub ~200 mile trips to provide elder assistance to our parents, an EV has been a huge benefit. Not to say that buying a $20K car is ever worthwhile to cut the cost of fuel but we were due for a newer car after two plus decades. We picked what we believed to be a fair to good MMM choice. A $3K Buick that gets 30 MPG might have been even more optimum but whatever. ;)

Our cost benefits come from L2 charging at both ends of our trip.

[the_gastropod]

Some jerk stole the catalytic converter (and O2 sensor) from our sweet 2009 Prius this week. I just got a quote from the mechanic: $4161 to fix it. I think this is my sign to finally pull the trigger and get an EV and not worry about catalytic converter theft ever again 😂

I'm looking at Chevy Bolts from Hertz. Seems like a reasonably good option. There's a few 2023 models available nearby for $17,500.

[Just Joe]

Enjoy the Bolt if you buy one. My coworker drivers one about 40 miles each way daily four seasons. No problems.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota,2009,prius,1.5l+l4+electric/gas,1443573,exhaust+&+emission,catalytic+converter,5808

If you want to keep it cheap a replacement catalytic converter is only $200-$300. Just have an independent shop install it if you can't DIY.

If you DIY replace all the gaskets and bolts. More help from me on request. I've done exhaust work many times over the years.

[nereo]

Yes and no.  I would not not call a PHEV "the best" of long-range driving.  You are dragging a useless massive heavy battery along with for the ride which greatly degrades MPG while taking up space.

That's a lot of hyperbole.  The batteries of most PHEVs are between 8-18kWh.  That size battery pack is typically in the 250-450lb range.  It's not nothing, but it's also not something which "greatly degrades MPG", any more than having a large adult  passenger with a suitcase would "greatly degrade MPG".  But the battery pack isn't simply just dead weight sitting there on long trips.  You can put the car in hybrid mode, and that battery pack does its job storing energy during braking/downhill coasting and boosting the engine when more power is needed.  In other words, it's a hybrid

  But give it 5-10 years and maybe batteries will be good enough to get 1,000 miles out of something fairly compact and lightweight that recharges in 5 minutes from 110v.

um, what?? 
This would seriously constrain the laws of physics. Assuming a standard 15 or 20amp circuit (the latter you can only draw 16 amps from) you are maxing out at 2,400 watts.  In 5 minutes you can get 0.2 kWh if we ignore all losses and are 100% efficient.
To get 1,000 miles per 5 minute charge you'd need an engine which was 1,000x more efficient than the current best BEV engines.  Which they simply can't be, because you run into the laws of phjuysics of how far you can move an object with humans inside at highway speeds on just 0.2kWh of power.  Which isn't much.

[NorCal]

Some jerk stole the catalytic converter (and O2 sensor) from our sweet 2009 Prius this week. I just got a quote from the mechanic: $4161 to fix it. I think this is my sign to finally pull the trigger and get an EV and not worry about catalytic converter theft ever again 😂

I'm looking at Chevy Bolts from Hertz. Seems like a reasonably good option. There's a few 2023 models available nearby for $17,500.

Two catalytic converter thefts in one year is what caused us to pull the trigger on our families first EV.

Marital disagreements over who got to drive the EV got us our second one in short order.


I’ve heard lots of good things about the Bolt, but haven’t drive one myself.

[NorCal]

If everything else was constant and most EVs would give you 400 miles of usable range, I would bet that most drivers in the US would find the experience to be different but equally good as current ICE technology, and quite compelling. 200 miles of usable range simply relegates EVs to specific tasks, and they're simply too expensive to be niche vehicles.

Other curiosities - Superchargers are amazing, easy to use, very fast and quite ubiquitous where I live, but they tend to be placed in suboptimal places for longer trips. Typically they're in large parking lots or the outskirts of town, without any amenities. If/when gas stations start installing chargers their infrastructure will be extremely valuable.

I watched the NYT interview with RJ Scaringe where he argued that EVs are unequivocally the future of personal transport, citing in part the California and EU mandates to abolish sales of ICE vehicles by 2035, and the more experience I get with this Tesla the more curious I find that perspective. He pushes the narrative that EVs are critical to making the planet habitable in the future, so I looked up the numbers, and personal vehicles account for about 10% of global emissions. EVs produce roughly half the emissions of ICE cars, so even if we transformed every single car, truck, and van into an EV we still would only reduce global emissions by about 5%. This could easily be accomplished via more traditional technologies. Imagine a fleet of PHEVs running ethanol, or synthetic petroleum.

IMO the EV craze is overblow. I cannot imagine a ten year future without a healthy mix of technologies. Some people will love EVs. Some people will cling to ICE. Many people, I suspect, will find a happy medium with hybrid or plugin hybrids.

A critical piece of information is that 10% of emissions is HUGE. It’s more a statement about how big the problem is, not how small one thing is. Every single thing looks small when viewed as a percent of the total.

An under appreciated aspect about dealing with climate change is that simply cutting emissions by 10%, 20%, or whatever arbitrary number isn’t sufficient.

We need to get to the point of net-zero emissions by roughly mid century to keep anywhere close to the IPCC targets. We’re nowhere near that, and the consequences will be devastating unless we pick up the pace of decarbonization dramatically.

The slightly simplistic take is that we need to get rid of everything fired by hydrocarbons. All of it. And anything we can’t get rid of, we need to pay to remove those emissions from the atmosphere.

There’s no question that this involves tough choices and trade offs. But we are quite literally making a choice between whether the agricultural systems of the planet can feed the population, or whether we choose to enjoy hydrocarbon conveniences.

[GilesMM]

But give it 5-10 years and maybe batteries will be good enough to get 1,000 miles out of something fairly compact and lightweight that recharges in 5 minutes from 110v.

Good lord you're trolling hard today. Back-of-the-envelope conservative math would estimate you'd need to pull over 20,000 amps from that 110V outlet.

No doubt, but the car-buying public wants convenience and range and doesn't seem willing to compromise without further incentives.

[VanillaGorilla]

A critical piece of information is that 10% of emissions is HUGE. It’s more a statement about how big the problem is, not how small one thing is. Every single thing looks small when viewed as a percent of the total.

An under appreciated aspect about dealing with climate change is that simply cutting emissions by 10%, 20%, or whatever arbitrary number isn’t sufficient.

We need to get to the point of net-zero emissions by roughly mid century to keep anywhere close to the IPCC targets. We’re nowhere near that, and the consequences will be devastating unless we pick up the pace of decarbonization dramatically.

The slightly simplistic take is that we need to get rid of everything fired by hydrocarbons. All of it. And anything we can’t get rid of, we need to pay to remove those emissions from the atmosphere.

There’s no question that this involves tough choices and trade offs. But we are quite literally making a choice between whether the agricultural systems of the planet can feed the population, or whether we choose to enjoy hydrocarbon conveniences.

I think the future is far less predictable than that. 

Simply trying to electrify everything is overly simplistic. We as a population should strive to reduce emissions in every way possible, not the sexiest way possible. If you could replace every ICE car and truck on the road with a hybrid, you'd also reduce emissions by roughly 50%. Simply getting people to drive smaller cars instead of trucks would provide similar benefit. However, it's not politically or socially viable. I've come to grudgingly acknowledge that pushing EVs is socially viable, because of their luxury status and cachet, but it's frustrating to recognize that we've had other technology to solve the same problem for 25 years now but it never caught on because it wasn't sexy enough.

Currently I suspect that the huge political push for EVs will normalize them tremendously, and those who don't want to adopt them or are not sufficiently well served by the technology will move to hybrid ICE vehicles, so in the end we'll have a meaningful shift to more efficient vehicles.

The political problem is that pushing EV mandates will rightfully anger those who are not well served by EV technology. Anybody who wants to tow, or make long drives through rural areas, or travel off road will be reluctant to adopt an EV, and mandates will alienate them. I'm beginning to understand the political anger at of out of touch politicians trying to control the minutia of peoples' everyday lives.

[the_gastropod]

Enjoy the Bolt if you buy one. My coworker drivers one about 40 miles each way daily four seasons. No problems.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/toyota,2009,prius,1.5l+l4+electric/gas,1443573,exhaust+&+emission,catalytic+converter,5808

If you want to keep it cheap a replacement catalytic converter is only $200-$300. Just have an independent shop install it if you can't DIY.

If you DIY replace all the gaskets and bolts. More help from me on request. I've done exhaust work many times over the years.

Ahh, thank you so much! I have opted for the DIY approach. I found the Magnaflow after market option, which looks like it's supposed to be actually good emission-wise. I'ma take a crack at DIYing. Really appreciate the offer to help share your wisdom. I may take you up on it!

Some jerk stole the catalytic converter (and O2 sensor) from our sweet 2009 Prius this week. I just got a quote from the mechanic: $4161 to fix it. I think this is my sign to finally pull the trigger and get an EV and not worry about catalytic converter theft ever again 😂

I'm looking at Chevy Bolts from Hertz. Seems like a reasonably good option. There's a few 2023 models available nearby for $17,500.

Two catalytic converter thefts in one year is what caused us to pull the trigger on our families first EV.

Marital disagreements over who got to drive the EV got us our second one in short order.


I’ve heard lots of good things about the Bolt, but haven’t drive one myself.

We've only lived at this place for ~6 months. So... yep. Sounds like 2 per year is the going rate! Man. It sounds like a second bolt may be in my not-too-distant future, too, then!

No doubt, but the car-buying public wants convenience and range and doesn't seem willing to compromise without further incentives.

It's a bit bittersweet that this is the general public take. On the one hand, it's wonderful, because all these electric cars are going for so cheap because demand is so weak. But it's a bummer people are so resistant to change when it meets the mildest of inconvenience.

[Tyson]

After living with my Model Y for more than a year, I've come to the conclusion that EV's are a lot more convenient.  IF you have a garage and can plug in at home. 

For people that have to street park?  Way less convenient.

[dandarc]

Yep, right now that is definitely the case. Charging situation outside of home / destination does continue to get a little bit better every day.

[charis]

After living with my Model Y for more than a year, I've come to the conclusion that EV's are a lot more convenient.  IF you have a garage and can plug in at home. 

For people that have to street park?  Way less convenient.

Well you definitely don't need a garage, we have a charger is installed on the side of our house, as do most of our neighbors with EVs.  But for the cost of installing a charger (2k+ here), it's much more convenient for homeowners.  I can imagine that renters or those unsure of how long they will stay in their current home aren't super interested in investing in an EV and charger installation, for good reason given the limited options for charging elsewhere.  We didn't have a home charger for a while after purchasing our EV and it was not simply inconvenient, it was stressful and mentally time-consuming.

There are no publicly available chargers within walking distance of my home.  So I had to pay to park in a parking garage near work (even though I have a free, charger-less lot at my job), and even then there was no guarantee that a charger would be available.  Free chargers, which are even more few and far between, are frequently broken, not available, or have spots occupied by non-charging vehicles.

[dandarc]

After living with my Model Y for more than a year, I've come to the conclusion that EV's are a lot more convenient.  IF you have a garage and can plug in at home. 

For people that have to street park?  Way less convenient.

Well you definitely don't need a garage, we have a charger is installed on the side of our house, as do most of our neighbors with EVs.  But for the cost of installing a charger (2k+ here), it's much more convenient for homeowners.  I can imagine that renters or those unsure of how long they will stay in their current home aren't super interested in investing in an EV and charger installation, for good reason given the limited options for charging elsewhere.  We didn't have a home charger for a while after purchasing our EV and it was not simply inconvenient, it was stressful and mentally time-consuming.

There are no publicly available chargers within walking distance of my home.  So I had to pay to park in a parking garage near work (even though I have a free, charger-less lot at my job), and even then there was no guarantee that a charger would be available.  Free chargers, which are even more few and far between, are frequently broken, not available, or have spots occupied by non-charging vehicles.

Same - I had just a regular 110v outlet installed on last house and did level-1 charging. Actually was most conveniently located exterior outlet on the entire house, so that was nice.

Maybe when time to replace gas-car (2027 is earliest to consider it for us, barring a very expensive repair popping up) I'll get something level 2 installed here at our new place. Rather do a dryer or RV outlet - then you can use the plug for other things when not charging - then we'll likely have 2 EVs, so charging one in garage and need to get a convenient plug somewhere to charge the other car outside. Unless actual V2H is more readily available / cheaper by then - doubting that very much, but if it is less vapor-ware by the time we upgrade, then that's the clear preference for convenient home backup.

[Frugal Lizard]

Yesterday I was at Toronto City Hall. Two whole bays of EV charging parking spots. 20 chargers. Brand new. Wow.

I have a 2022 Leaf that was still at 75% or I would have plugged in.

[Just Joe]

I’ve heard lots of good things about the Bolt, but haven’t drive one myself.

The Bolt gets alot of the attention but remember there are several cars of similar size that are electric if you go shopping.

Leaf Plus, Mini, Kona, Niro, Mustang, etc. I was recently surprised to see the Mustang was similar in length and height to a Leaf. I had assumed previously that the Leaf was a smaller car.

[Cranky]

We’re actually car shopping and I’m surprised at how few options there actually are. There seem to be small cars or really huge SUVs. If you don’t want to do business with Musk the pickings are slim.

[Just Joe]

I tend to start with Honda products when we car shop b/c we've owned many of them over the years always with good results. Right now Honda only has an SUV EV. Then should have had something smaller like a Fit or HRV but like Toyota they are conservative when it comes to new product development.

I've owned a couple of Hyundai products and swore I'd never own another b/c while both vehicles were good for us, aesthetically they were the definition of cheap w/o the cheerful. They served the purpose but I never liked driving them, didn't like looking at them. Some of the Fords make me feel the same.

Understand I am a huge fan of cheap cars - cars that were cheap when new. I've driven Fiats and Citroens with interiors that probably cost less than my camp chair and liked them for what they were.

Something about our two Hyundais turned me off. Then we bought this Kona b/c we wanted a small EV without a huge dash display (see Mustang and all Teslas). We've really enjoyed it. Hope it is durable.

Saw this today. Maybe it will be useful: https://theevfinder.com/

[RWD]

Then should have had something smaller like a Fit [...]

They did 10 years ago. Too bad they didn't sell it nationwide or continue development...
https://www.caranddriver.com/honda/fit-ev

[Frugal Lizard]

This organization is another EV resource: https://www.plugndrive.ca/electric-vehicle-discovery-centre/

Seems like they have a lot of the fancier EV's for test drives if you can get yourself to downtown Toronto.

[Tyson]

We’re actually car shopping and I’m surprised at how few options there actually are. There seem to be small cars or really huge SUVs. If you don’t want to do business with Musk the pickings are slim.

The EV3 and EV6 are both nice cars and not too big.

[VanillaGorilla]

We’re actually car shopping and I’m surprised at how few options there actually are. There seem to be small cars or really huge SUVs. If you don’t want to do business with Musk the pickings are slim.

The form factors for EVs are very limited. You can have cars, or low clearance crossovers....or hilariously huge and wildly expensive trucks.

If you refuse to consider Tesla then you're also relegating yourself to truly awful charging infrastructure. The supercharging network is the main reason why I didn't consider anything but Tesla, distaste for Musk aside. Outside of Teslas I might consider a Ioniq 5, but the ground clearance and awful styling make that less compelling to me.

A friend of a friend recently reported their Rivian's software crashing and bricking the whole car. They were in a remote rock climbing area with sub-freezing temperatures, and when the car crashed it locked out them with all their warm clothes and camping gear inside. EVs definitely expose you to a new set of vehicular challenges.

[Paper Chaser]

We’re actually car shopping and I’m surprised at how few options there actually are. There seem to be small cars or really huge SUVs. If you don’t want to do business with Musk the pickings are slim.

The form factors for EVs are very limited. You can have cars, or low clearance crossovers....or hilariously huge and wildly expensive trucks.

That's really not much different from the ICE offerings in the new vehicle market.

[Tyson]

You could also buy a used Tesla.  Best charging network, reasonably sized car, very efficient, and Tesla will not see any of your money.  In fact I believe Teslas qualify for the used EV credit so you can take $4k off whatever the list price is for a used one.

[AlanStache]

My coop building is looking at the feasibility of adding EV charging.  We are in an old building with limited space and old electrical systems, we probably have space for two chargers, level 1 or 2 max.  We dont have dedicated parking, we only have an access way between the building and garage that could accommodate two cars charging at a time (while still allowing other cars to pass between). 

Are there small scale systems that can track who uses what power to charge?  No one currently has an EV but some have expressed interest.  I could see multiple owners who charge different amounts who would not want to evenly split a power bill.  It is probably a given that the charging would have to be done on a new circuit with a dedicated bill.  Thanks for any input.

[GilesMM]

You could also buy a used Tesla.  Best charging network, reasonably sized car, very efficient, and Tesla will not see any of your money.  In fact I believe Teslas qualify for the used EV credit so you can take $4k off whatever the list price is for a used one.

Tesla will see your money indirectly as you will be supporting resale prices which affect new car prices.


I would get a used Bolt or even a Leaf.

[LennStar]

You could also buy a used Tesla.  Best charging network, reasonably sized car, very efficient, and Tesla will not see any of your money.  In fact I believe Teslas qualify for the used EV credit so you can take $4k off whatever the list price is for a used one.

Tesla will see your money indirectly as you will be supporting resale prices which affect new car prices.

Even for others cars that link is far more in the other direction and not with much amount. And for Teslas it's even a far smaller amount than conventional cars because of technological development.
I doubt Musk even thinks about used cars.

[Tyson]

I wonder if the people that won't buy a Tesla because of Musk also use Amazon?  Because Jeff Bezos is also quite a big jerk from what I understand. 

[geekette]

My coop building is looking at the feasibility of adding EV charging.  We are in an old building with limited space and old electrical systems, we probably have space for two chargers, level 1 or 2 max.  We dont have dedicated parking, we only have an access way between the building and garage that could accommodate two cars charging at a time (while still allowing other cars to pass between). 

Are there small scale systems that can track who uses what power to charge?  No one currently has an EV but some have expressed interest.  I could see multiple owners who charge different amounts who would not want to evenly split a power bill.  It is probably a given that the charging would have to be done on a new circuit with a dedicated bill.  Thanks for any input.

I have little experience outside of home charging, but my Mom's senior living apartment building has a Level 2 ChargePoint set up for residents and family.  It's on a post, outside, between 2 parking spots, and has 2 whips, so 2 can charge cars at once.

It's set so only authorized users with the app can charge. It's also free for now, but per ChargePoint's website, you can set rates, access, etc.

I wonder if the people that won't buy a Tesla because of Musk also use Amazon?  Because Jeff Bezos is also quite a big jerk from what I understand. 

Is Bezos currently spending millions in ways of dubious legality on an election?  If so, I haven't heard.

[Tyson]

I wonder if the people that won't buy a Tesla because of Musk also use Amazon?  Because Jeff Bezos is also quite a big jerk from what I understand. 

Is Bezos currently spending millions in ways of dubious legality on an election?  If so, I haven't heard.

For clarity, I am a registered democrat and just finished voting straight blue in this election (same as I do every election).  I also have a trans son (F to M), so I am politically quite a ways away from Musk. 

Having said that I bought a Tesla with zero qualms a year ago because it was clearly the best product and aligned with my biggest goal of making my home fully electric.  Which I'm 90% there, only need to get a heat pump to have all electric appliances. 

I find I make the same decisions with other stuff I do with my money.  I use Amazon even though Bezos is a jerk.  I use Apple even though Steve Jobs was an odious person.  I listen to music by composers like Wagner, even though he was a rabid anti-semite.  I also have personal hero's like Newton, even though he was actually way more of a alchemist in real life and his work in physics was a very minor amount of his work.  Or I find value in the works of someone like Nietzsche even though he basically wrote out the plan that the Nazi's followed in WWII re: the master race and 'slave morality', etc... 

Many, many, many artists I like also have very bad personal histories.  I still listen to their music or watch their movies or read their books. 

But I guess nowadays people don't care about if a person is odious or repugnant, personally.  They care about their politics.