Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[Paper Chaser]

Saw this yesterday: https://youtu.be/6OfH4EN9A0E

Its an EREV pickup truck. Looks to be a good recipe. I'd buy that before I bought a Tesla CT.

Assuming the BYD EREV was quality vehicle - a EREV p/u vs Rivian or Lightning? That might come down to a coin toss for me.

I prefer a BEV. Really like our BEV. But an EREV might be better IF we were traveling long distances regularly - which we rarely do these days.   

Bet the US domestic brands aren't happy to see that kind of competition on the horizon b/c it will force them to compete or seem stale.

So how does China enter the US market? Factories in the states or building cars in Mexico or ???

Ram's Ramcharger is a plug in EREV truck with ~145 mile EV range from a more established brand that won't have to see drastic political and social change to be sold in North America. Should start rolling out of North American factories sometime in 2025.

https://www.caranddriver.com/ram/1500-ramcharger

[GuitarStv]

I kinda get the queries about solar panels and wind turbines.  They have been heavily oversold as a solution to our energy problem, and they absolutely are not that.

How have they been oversold? 

The world is fairly rapidly shifting to renewables. The general industry consensus I’ve heard is that renewables can make up around 75-85% of the energy mix with batteries, with electricity costs roughly inline with current market rates.  Decarbonizing the last 15%-25% would be incredibly expensive though.  I think a 75% solution is an absolutely amazing opportunity given the scope and scale of climate challenges we’re facing.

Old post.


Reducing carbon usage by shifting to renewables is a sensible step in the right direction, but doesn't get towards the heart of the problem - which the issue with increasing consumption.  Look at the adoption of electric vehicles - which has (on average) led to more driving by the people who purchased the vehicles.

Renewables are sold as a 'solution', but aren't.  Switching is only the first step on the road towards a solution.

What do. you think is the actual solution?

There's no one single thing that will do it.  Theoretically . . . switching over to renewables, significantly reducing consumption (less meat and farmed animal products, no air travel - just make it illegal for recreation, radically less individual vehicular travel/increase in mass transit, an awful lot less buying of shit), dropping the world population of people, taxation that includes the environmental costs of owning/using/disposing of the item being purchased, regulations aimed at increasing the usable life of products with a goal towards eliminating disposable junk, ending subsidies for rural life if you're not farming, heavily regulating product advertisements to reduce effectiveness, improving building standards, taxing products made in other countries without environmental controls to eliminate their competitive advantage, outlawing cryptocurrency, stopping all drilling for oil, reduce plastic use, better city design/construction . . . that would get us well on the way towards a solution.

Based on the human behaviour I've seen in my lifetime though, it seems unlikely that there is going to be one.  We'll likely keep fucking things up until it kills enough of us that we have less impact - all the while patting ourselves on the back for taking the tiniest part measures to make us feel better about ourselves.

With declining birth rates outside of Africa we may see progress sooner than that.    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/crude-birth-rate   Still, attitudes towards consumption would need to change.   Whoever dies with the most toys is not the winner...

There are certainly some inklings of hope.  One of the best solutions humanity has inadvertently created is the massive release of microplastics that have steadily been reducing fertility in men in the developed world.

[Just Joe]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-trump-harris-high-status-males-4chan-b2606617.html

Seems like a great way to kill one's brand - alienate a large percentage of your customers...

Would a company like Tesla have any way to evict the guy?

[LennStar]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-trump-harris-high-status-males-4chan-b2606617.html

Seems like a great way to kill one's brand - alienate a large percentage of your customers...

And get even more determined followers from others. All those who consider themselves alphas.

Would a company like Tesla have any way to evict the guy?

Of course. Elon holds 20% (number from February I found) so he doesn't even have a blocking minority. But just because something is possible does not mean it happens.

Possible for example is that the other shareholders sue him for behavior that is damaging for the stock price. If a court would rule that he have to pay damages is another story again.

[dividendman]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-trump-harris-high-status-males-4chan-b2606617.html

Seems like a great way to kill one's brand - alienate a large percentage of your customers...

Would a company like Tesla have any way to evict the guy?

The shareholders granted a crazy pay package so I think evicting him from the CEO position is not in the cards.

[sonofsven]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-trump-harris-high-status-males-4chan-b2606617.html

Seems like a great way to kill one's brand - alienate a large percentage of your customers...

Would a company like Tesla have any way to evict the guy?

For a "smart guy" he sure is dumb.

[reeshau]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-trump-harris-high-status-males-4chan-b2606617.html

Seems like a great way to kill one's brand - alienate a large percentage of your customers...

Would a company like Tesla have any way to evict the guy?

For a "smart guy" he sure is dumb.

He has so much money, he doesn't care about money.

I would suppose if you have enough money that interplanetary space exploration is a possible hobby, you would get pissed off that the world doesn't listen to you when you yell at the TV.  (Or, 21st century version, fire off a tweet)

You can buy one side's attention for just $40M a month?  Let me check between the cushions of the couch, for change that small.  Heck, I burned 100x that to buy a perfectly good messaging app to remake it in my likeness.

[AlanStache]

...
Would a company like Tesla have any way to evict the guy?

Not sure it would matter.  Ok, somehow he is evicted from the board and all management duties, he still owns a lot of the company is is publicly associated with the brand.  How many that dont like him would then go back to Tesla if he were only a company owner and not in management?  Would take a long time.  Ford is still sort of working off the association of Henny Ford with Nazis and other unsavory ideas & groups from back in the day. 

[soulpatchmike]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/elon-musk-trump-harris-high-status-males-4chan-b2606617.html

Seems like a great way to kill one's brand - alienate a large percentage of your customers...

Would a company like Tesla have any way to evict the guy?

Not sure which is funnier, the responses to this thread after reading the original Autism Capital post or Elon entertaining himself on X.

[GilesMM]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/lifestyle/lifestyle-news/tesla-robotaxi-warner-bros-reveal-hollywood-rejection-elon-musk-1236007945/


Shifts are now occurring in local consumer interest and purchase behavior. “Certainly we have seen sales drop significantly at Tesla this year,” Kim says, citing a nearly 25 percent drop in sales in the Golden State this quarter alone. This is notable not just because the brand is losing market share as established luxury automakers like Audi, BMW and Mercedes, and compelling upstarts like Polestar, Lucid and Rivian, diversify their EV offerings, but because, in an expanding EV marketplace, Tesla is shrinking. “Despite all the headlines, EV sales are still growing. They’re just not growing at the same speed that they were before. But Tesla is actually losing sales,” Kim says. “In fact, Tesla is one of the few EV makers that has been losing volume, not just losing market share.”

This decline can be correlated with Musk’s recent rightward turn and related online antics. “Rejection of Tesla recently spiked and continues among Democrats. They want nothing to do with Tesla,” says Alexander Edwards, president of Strategic Vision, a Southern California-based consultancy that conducts hundreds of thousands of in-depth psychographic surveys with new car buyers annually. “And there are no hidden Republicans that are buying these. That just doesn’t exist.”

[AccidentialMustache]

I'd argue at this point it is post politics if you're paying attention.

At shareholder meetings, he has talked about pivoting to robotaxies and ai/robotics.

If that works like he claims, then there's no reason to be in automotive anymore. Maybe for making the robotaxies, but that doesn't mean parts availability for a model 3. Also you could just add self driving hardware to any other car... like cruise is. So all the tesla repair centers close. Now what?

Similar with his little temper tantrum around the supercharger team.

If I'm buying a car, I want to know the manufacturer will be around for a while (making vehicles I care about), and/or they are sufficiently right-to-repair that I could get an independent shop to be able to work on the vehicle after the manufacturer pivots/goes under (see: fisker karma). Tesla is not being positioned to be on the correct side of that divide.

[Just Joe]

If I'm buying a car, I want to know the manufacturer will be around for a while (making vehicles I care about), and/or they are sufficiently right-to-repair that I could get an independent shop to be able to work on the vehicle after the manufacturer pivots/goes under (see: fisker karma). Tesla is not being positioned to be on the correct side of that divide.

Same same.

I've prob said this here already but my relative was talking about replacing their vehicle. Would this other brand be a good car I was asked. Well, no - not enthused about that brand. They consistently fare poorly on quality surveys. Then I asked how old their current car was - age and miles. It was young on both metrics. Not even out of warranty yet.

If I was changing cars that frequently I wouldn't worry what the future of the parent company was or the quality of the vehicle outside of the warranty period. Maybe resale would be a bigger issue for me though. Still not buying a Tesla b/c Elon but whatever. Fisker showed one posssible future.

DW and I buy less expensive cars and kept them "forever". I don't feel confident Tesla is "forever" yet. Seems like Tesla and SpaceX both would be better w/o Musk than with.

Back to the relative: I advised them to do whatever they wanted to do (and at that point in time they were going to do whatever they wanted to do). Everything is good for ~50K miles. I think they wanted my blessing to go car shopping. The situation has changed alot since then and I recommended them to keep what they have to at least 100K miles which will likely be more years than they'll need to drive. They agreed. Most of their driving is close to home.

Also we attended a big extended family thing recently. That whole part of the family is still noticably cool on EVs. Matches their stated politics. One tried to warn me about the cost of replacing the battery. Another on the fires. I'm thankful for the well meaning guidance and did not debate it.

No interest in the EV, no questions about the EV, nobody wanted to see it up close. One rode to the store with us and mistook my conservative driving for a lack of horsepower/torque. A quick run to 45 mph at the next stop light solved that misconception. We had a good laugh about it.

I really don't care. I'm probably reading way too much into this. Just so funny how alien an EV can be to some folks. Its like they don't want to know too much so it doesn't lead to questioning what they believe. We should have bought the gas version. This is life among conservative people. ;)

[bacchi]

I really don't care. I'm probably reading way too much into this. Just so funny how alien an EV can be to some folks. Its like they don't want to know too much so it doesn't lead to questioning what they believe. We should have bought the gas version. This is life among conservative people. ;)

My dad asked, "So bacchi, how much did your electric bill go up with all the charging?" I replied, "Way less than the cost of gas... and it's all from renewables." (Not that he cares about the renewables part -- he was a lifelong oil and gas employee after all.)

[GilesMM]

I really don't care. I'm probably reading way too much into this. Just so funny how alien an EV can be to some folks. Its like they don't want to know too much so it doesn't lead to questioning what they believe. We should have bought the gas version. This is life among conservative people. ;)

My dad asked, "So bacchi, how much did your electric bill go up with all the charging?" I replied, "Way less than the cost of gas... and it's all from renewables." (Not that he cares about the renewables part -- he was a lifelong oil and gas employee after all.)

A lot of car guys (and gals) are just not into the EV thing.  It is viewed as a tech/geek novelty.  Believe it or not, the lack of engine noise is one of the big drawbacks.

[Taran Wanderer]

A couple other thoughts on Tesla…

1) Their interior styling is pretty spartan and heavily focused on the large screen. It’s as luxurious as other brands with a similar price. The screen-focus also makes it a bigger change from other vehicles (ICE, hybrid, or electric) than it needs to be. As more conventional feeling electric vehicles are released, people may gravitate toward them.

2) It’s time for a model refresh. It’s like Elon liked developing the first pass, but let’s face it, people like something “new and improved” after a few years. What is this, the Model T? You can get it in any color you want as long as it’s black?  Even without the Elon baggage, Tesla is going to iterate and refresh their designs if they want to keep drawing consumers.

It’s funny because Elon’s stubbornness was a key factor in pushing the broader electric vehicle market, but if Tesla doesn’t adopt some of the long term plays of the traditional automakers, they are going to get eaten up by the steady churn, long term support, and incremental advancement (note I didn’t use the words radical innovation) of their competitors.

[RWD]

Believe it or not, the lack of engine noise is one of the big drawbacks.

Our EV makes quite a few noises. Makes me think of a spaceship or a jet aircraft. I particularly like the sound of the fans ramping up for battery conditioning. I do also like the exhaust note on our Porsche, but it gets old quick when cruising on the highway.

[Just Joe]

I love the engine noises of our ICEV but like RWD said, after a while - it's just noise.

I drove ~90 miles each way an annual social event tonight. Was alone so I had a very nice concert to listen to w/o the engine noises of an ICEV in the background. 12+ hours of all sorts of music on random stream. Love the variety.

[Paper Chaser]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

[GilesMM]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

[Tyson]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

Agreed.  That's how I feel about my Model Y.  It's blisteringly fast and takes corners almost as well as a Cayenne.  I use it as my daily driver even though it's WAY overpowered.

[RWD]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

Agreed.  That's how I feel about my Model Y.  It's blisteringly fast and takes corners almost as well as a Cayenne.  I use it as my daily driver even though it's WAY overpowered.

The Cayenne is Porsche's biggest SUV. I thought that wasn't a compliment until I looked up the skidpad numbers... 1.02g, that's practically breaking the laws of physics!

[GilesMM]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

Agreed.  That's how I feel about my Model Y.  It's blisteringly fast and takes corners almost as well as a Cayenne.  I use it as my daily driver even though it's WAY overpowered.

The Cayenne is Porsche's biggest SUV. I thought that wasn't a compliment until I looked up the skidpad numbers... 1.02g, that's practically breaking the laws of physics!

C&D described the Tesla Y as "Quick but Clumsy".  https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36376244/2020-tesla-model-y-performance-by-the-numbers/

[Tyson]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

Agreed.  That's how I feel about my Model Y.  It's blisteringly fast and takes corners almost as well as a Cayenne.  I use it as my daily driver even though it's WAY overpowered.

The Cayenne is Porsche's biggest SUV. I thought that wasn't a compliment until I looked up the skidpad numbers... 1.02g, that's practically breaking the laws of physics!

C&D described the Tesla Y as "Quick but Clumsy".  https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36376244/2020-tesla-model-y-performance-by-the-numbers/

It’s pretty dang fun for me 👍🏻

Also that was a 2020 Y and the newer ones have different suspension now. 

It will never be a sports car, you need a Model 3 Performance or a Model S if you want true racetrack handling.

But, for an SUV daily driver?  The Y is brutally fast and way too fun.

[JLee]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

Agreed.  That's how I feel about my Model Y.  It's blisteringly fast and takes corners almost as well as a Cayenne.  I use it as my daily driver even though it's WAY overpowered.

The Cayenne is Porsche's biggest SUV. I thought that wasn't a compliment until I looked up the skidpad numbers... 1.02g, that's practically breaking the laws of physics!

I suspect it's going to be too expensive for me but the upcoming EV 718 has me intrigued.

[GilesMM]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

Agreed.  That's how I feel about my Model Y.  It's blisteringly fast and takes corners almost as well as a Cayenne.  I use it as my daily driver even though it's WAY overpowered.

The Cayenne is Porsche's biggest SUV. I thought that wasn't a compliment until I looked up the skidpad numbers... 1.02g, that's practically breaking the laws of physics!

I suspect it's going to be too expensive for me but the upcoming EV 718 has me intrigued.

Hope they sell better than the Taycan EV which has been sort of a dud with sales down about 50% this year. The dinosaur-powered 911 outsells it 6 to 1.

[JLee]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

Agreed.  That's how I feel about my Model Y.  It's blisteringly fast and takes corners almost as well as a Cayenne.  I use it as my daily driver even though it's WAY overpowered.

The Cayenne is Porsche's biggest SUV. I thought that wasn't a compliment until I looked up the skidpad numbers... 1.02g, that's practically breaking the laws of physics!

I suspect it's going to be too expensive for me but the upcoming EV 718 has me intrigued.

Hope they sell better than the Taycan EV which has been sort of a dud with sales down about 50% this year. The dinosaur-powered 911 outsells it 6 to 1.

The Taycan isn't really the same class though - four door sedan vs the legend that is 60+ years of 911's.  I hope they sell well too, I suppose time will tell.

[RWD]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

Agreed.  That's how I feel about my Model Y.  It's blisteringly fast and takes corners almost as well as a Cayenne.  I use it as my daily driver even though it's WAY overpowered.

The Cayenne is Porsche's biggest SUV. I thought that wasn't a compliment until I looked up the skidpad numbers... 1.02g, that's practically breaking the laws of physics!

I suspect it's going to be too expensive for me but the upcoming EV 718 has me intrigued.

I've been anticipating this since Porsche showed off their Mission R concept three years ago. We bought our current Cayman at a 40% discount (compared to MSRP) when it was 4 years old so I figure we could consider replacing it with an electric equivalent in 2030 or so (once they are used and nicely depreciated).

[GilesMM]

Daily driver? EV for efficiency, reliability and peace/quiet
Toy? Manual transmission and nice exhaust note for engagement

Some of us like to daily our toys!

Agreed.  That's how I feel about my Model Y.  It's blisteringly fast and takes corners almost as well as a Cayenne.  I use it as my daily driver even though it's WAY overpowered.

The Cayenne is Porsche's biggest SUV. I thought that wasn't a compliment until I looked up the skidpad numbers... 1.02g, that's practically breaking the laws of physics!

I suspect it's going to be too expensive for me but the upcoming EV 718 has me intrigued.

I've been anticipating this since Porsche showed off their Mission R concept three years ago. We bought our current Cayman at a 40% discount (compared to MSRP) when it was 4 years old so I figure we could consider replacing it with an electric equivalent in 2030 or so (once they are used and nicely depreciated).

I am the same way - always looking ahead four years and waiting things out.  How long do I have to wait for a decent Toyota/Lexus EV with some range?

Just bought a 2020 vehicle to replacing aging 2010 model with 160k miles, but only got 22% off as it had low miles and is fairly rare (120 sold that year).

[RWD]

How long do I have to wait for a decent Toyota/Lexus EV with some range?

Probably a while, Toyota has been actively anti-EV as much or more than the oil companies... But you can get a Honda Prologue today with 296 miles of EPA range.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tugboat-powered-ammonia-sails-first-133421278.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&segment_id=DY_VTO&ncid=crm_19908-1202929-20240923-0&bt_user_id=HqAeFDSD4RUxH41xTesKho2XGYxyIB9ERMOtbJYLNyJlpoHnF1OgHie4Xr6vS79q&bt_ts=1727117720269

OK, so not truly electric.  But ammonia to fuel cell electric.  This could end the range anxiety problem for good.

Wish the article reported what the cost per gallon was and equivalent fuel mileage would be.

[NorCal]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tugboat-powered-ammonia-sails-first-133421278.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&segment_id=DY_VTO&ncid=crm_19908-1202929-20240923-0&bt_user_id=HqAeFDSD4RUxH41xTesKho2XGYxyIB9ERMOtbJYLNyJlpoHnF1OgHie4Xr6vS79q&bt_ts=1727117720269

OK, so not truly electric.  But ammonia to fuel cell electric.  This could end the range anxiety problem for good.

Wish the article reported what the cost per gallon was and equivalent fuel mileage would be.

I haven’t followed this specific one, but I’ve been paying attention to the green ammonia and green methanol upstarts.

It will be expensive. At least if they’re using green ammonia.

Ammonia is currently produced with natural gas. However, it can be made with green hydrogen in a much more expensive way.  Green methanol is similar, however it requires the addition of a carbon atom sourced from somewhere usually not-green.

Ammonia and methanol are considered offshoots of the hydrogen economy, with lower transportation logistics required.  Costs will likely run somewhere in the neighborhood of hydrogen, which is several times more expensive than gasoline per mile.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tugboat-powered-ammonia-sails-first-133421278.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&segment_id=DY_VTO&ncid=crm_19908-1202929-20240923-0&bt_user_id=HqAeFDSD4RUxH41xTesKho2XGYxyIB9ERMOtbJYLNyJlpoHnF1OgHie4Xr6vS79q&bt_ts=1727117720269

OK, so not truly electric.  But ammonia to fuel cell electric.  This could end the range anxiety problem for good.

Wish the article reported what the cost per gallon was and equivalent fuel mileage would be.

I haven’t followed this specific one, but I’ve been paying attention to the green ammonia and green methanol upstarts.

It will be expensive. At least if they’re using green ammonia.

Ammonia is currently produced with natural gas. However, it can be made with green hydrogen in a much more expensive way.  Green methanol is similar, however it requires the addition of a carbon atom sourced from somewhere usually not-green.

Ammonia and methanol are considered offshoots of the hydrogen economy, with lower transportation logistics required.  Costs will likely run somewhere in the neighborhood of hydrogen, which is several times more expensive than gasoline per mile.

Thanks, you have any info on what the efficiency of Sabatier process to create methane from CO2 and H2O?  Surely there is some price point where we use surplus off peak renewables to generate renewable methane.  With Gas-To-Liquids technology, all the non fuel things oil gives us can continue to exist.

Unfortunately, methane super cheap in US right now and looks to stay that way.

[reeshau]

Chevron is gearing up a loop something like that.  Renewable-> hydrogen from electrolysis-> underground storage -> hydrogen power generation at peak times.

They are calling it a hydrogen battery.

https://www.chevron.com/newsroom/2024/q1/hydrogen-facility-to-be-a-chevron-first

[RWD]

Chevron is gearing up a loop something like that.  Renewable-> hydrogen from electrolysis-> underground storage -> hydrogen power generation at peak times.

They are calling it a hydrogen battery.

https://www.chevron.com/newsroom/2024/q1/hydrogen-facility-to-be-a-chevron-first

I don't see anything in that article about it being used like a battery. Though if that is the plan the round-trip efficiency must be abysmal (based on some quick number calculation I'd be shocked if it's better than 50%).

[GilesMM]

Chevron is gearing up a loop something like that.  Renewable-> hydrogen from electrolysis-> underground storage -> hydrogen power generation at peak times.

They are calling it a hydrogen battery.

https://www.chevron.com/newsroom/2024/q1/hydrogen-facility-to-be-a-chevron-first

I wouldn't be surprised if Chevron no longer owned and operated Lost Hills field in the next few given how hard California is pushing to shut them down.

[Telecaster]

I don't see anything in that article about it being used like a battery. Though if that is the plan the round-trip efficiency must be abysmal (based on some quick number calculation I'd be shocked if it's better than 50%).

I think they are calling it a battery because it is a a way to help people understand that it is a type of energy storage.   But I agree.  You could take the excess electricity, use to to make hydrogen, then burn it for energy.   Or you could use the electricity directly or store it in a real battery.  I don't see how this pencils out.   

[reeshau]

I don't see anything in that article about it being used like a battery. Though if that is the plan the round-trip efficiency must be abysmal (based on some quick number calculation I'd be shocked if it's better than 50%).

I think they are calling it a battery because it is a a way to help people understand that it is a type of energy storage.   But I agree.  You could take the excess electricity, use to to make hydrogen, then burn it for energy.   Or you could use the electricity directly or store it in a real battery.  I don't see how this pencils out.

It's not different than the water batteries.  Moving things around doesn't add efficiency.  But taking an intermittent source (solar and wind) and being able to apply it as needed, at peak rates, makes it profitable.  The hydrogen storage in salt caves is both large in scale and stable.

Chevron's CEO called it a battery in a separate interview.  He said the energy storage capacity would match all the batter storage in the country, currently.  (Not sure if he meant literal battery storage, or also counted the reservoir storage, as mentioned upthread)

[NorCal]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tugboat-powered-ammonia-sails-first-133421278.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&segment_id=DY_VTO&ncid=crm_19908-1202929-20240923-0&bt_user_id=HqAeFDSD4RUxH41xTesKho2XGYxyIB9ERMOtbJYLNyJlpoHnF1OgHie4Xr6vS79q&bt_ts=1727117720269

OK, so not truly electric.  But ammonia to fuel cell electric.  This could end the range anxiety problem for good.

Wish the article reported what the cost per gallon was and equivalent fuel mileage would be.

I haven’t followed this specific one, but I’ve been paying attention to the green ammonia and green methanol upstarts.

It will be expensive. At least if they’re using green ammonia.

Ammonia is currently produced with natural gas. However, it can be made with green hydrogen in a much more expensive way.  Green methanol is similar, however it requires the addition of a carbon atom sourced from somewhere usually not-green.

Ammonia and methanol are considered offshoots of the hydrogen economy, with lower transportation logistics required.  Costs will likely run somewhere in the neighborhood of hydrogen, which is several times more expensive than gasoline per mile.

Thanks, you have any info on what the efficiency of Sabatier process to create methane from CO2 and H2O?  Surely there is some price point where we use surplus off peak renewables to generate renewable methane.  With Gas-To-Liquids technology, all the non fuel things oil gives us can continue to exist.

Unfortunately, methane super cheap in US right now and looks to stay that way.

I don’t have numbers on that. I’m also just a layperson trying to understand the technical and economic implications of these things that are outside my areas of expertise.

I recommend the podcast “Cleaning Up”. The host recently did an episode on how much subsidies are required to make hydrogen work. It’s a fairly pessimistic take. He has some other good episodes interviewing other people that are involved in various niches of the energy transition.

[NorCal]

I don't see anything in that article about it being used like a battery. Though if that is the plan the round-trip efficiency must be abysmal (based on some quick number calculation I'd be shocked if it's better than 50%).

I think they are calling it a battery because it is a a way to help people understand that it is a type of energy storage.   But I agree.  You could take the excess electricity, use to to make hydrogen, then burn it for energy.   Or you could use the electricity directly or store it in a real battery.  I don't see how this pencils out.

I agree. It’s mostly a bunch of nonsense. Making the assumption you have free excess renewables (a pretty big assumption) then you come to the obvious question of how to store it.

The obvious answer is to find the cheapest way to store it; not the most expensive.

Adding up the capital costs of electolyzers, compressors, storage, etc. quickly adds up to more than  the cost of storing electricity by other means.

There absolutely is a role for hydrogen in the energy transition.  But it’s a niche thing for niche applications. Not a general purpose energy source.

[RWD]

I don't see anything in that article about it being used like a battery. Though if that is the plan the round-trip efficiency must be abysmal (based on some quick number calculation I'd be shocked if it's better than 50%).

I think they are calling it a battery because it is a a way to help people understand that it is a type of energy storage.   But I agree.  You could take the excess electricity, use to to make hydrogen, then burn it for energy.   Or you could use the electricity directly or store it in a real battery.  I don't see how this pencils out.

I agree. It’s mostly a bunch of nonsense. Making the assumption you have free excess renewables (a pretty big assumption) then you come to the obvious question of how to store it.

The obvious answer is to find the cheapest way to store it; not the most expensive.

Adding up the capital costs of electolyzers, compressors, storage, etc. quickly adds up to more than  the cost of storing electricity by other means.

There absolutely is a role for hydrogen in the energy transition.  But it’s a niche thing for niche applications. Not a general purpose energy source.

And even if all the supporting hydrogen equipment/storage was free you're still going to have to put in double or even triple the amount of energy in to the system than you can get back out. If you're burning the hydrogen to use it then that becomes more like quadruple. It doesn't even remotely make sense compared to virtually any other type of battery.

[AlanStache]

Storage is not just about costs but availability of when things can be built.  If chemical battery production is globally maxed out but you can buy pumps and tanks and get them delivered on a known time frame things may still make sense to do.  Or this is some boondoggle funded by taxpayers and done for PR.

Am dealing with ICE car maintenance shop BS now, please tell me that electric cars do actually have the lower maintenance as has been promised.   

[RWD]

Am dealing with ICE car maintenance shop BS now, please tell me that electric cars do actually have the lower maintenance as has been promised.

Our Polestar has been in the shop twice in 2.5 years. Once for glass replacement (rock chip) and once for regular maintenance (I think they rotated the tires and topped up fluids). Cost has only been my insurance deductible so far (first maintenance visit was complimentary).

[Just Joe]

Our Kona has been in for repair twice looking at the VIN history.

We bought it with ~30K miles in May. According to Hyundai's VIN history in the owner's portal, last November it recieved inverter and battery service in Nov last year.

It appears (I think) that it recieved replacement components in both cases under warranty. Some of the early inverters leaked internally.

I know Hyundai had a coolant issue at one point (BSC1 vs the later BSC2). Their early coolant caused crystals to grow in the cooling loop so they had a flush routine/flush machine developed.

If it couldn't be flushed out, they replaced the inverter and battery. I read somewhere that the battery had black sides from the factory (looking under the car) and silver sides if it was a replacement battery. Our's has silver sides and 100% SoH @ 38K miles. Feels a little like we may have won the lottery... Did not know that until about a week ago.

[Tyson]

Storage is not just about costs but availability of when things can be built.  If chemical battery production is globally maxed out but you can buy pumps and tanks and get them delivered on a known time frame things may still make sense to do.  Or this is some boondoggle funded by taxpayers and done for PR.

Am dealing with ICE car maintenance shop BS now, please tell me that electric cars do actually have the lower maintenance as has been promised.

I owned an Acura MDX before I got the Model Y.  The MDX was in the shop at least every 6 months. 

Maintenance on the Model Y has been zero, so far.  Owned it over a year and put 11k miles on it.

[Just Joe]

As a current MDX owner/driver - which year?

[Tyson]

As a current MDX owner/driver - which year?

2007.  I bought it used in 2012 and I had expensive service at least once a year in the beginning and that increased to every 6 months as time went on.

The thing that sucks is I bought it because I assumed it would be very low cost long term maintenance because it was basically an expensive Honda. 

[Just Joe]

Same logic - just an expensive Honda with better NVH characteristics. We've enjoyed it.

I don't know alot about your years MDX. Our '14 purchased with 45K miles has basically been as expected. We're at ~145K miles with no major issues.

The transmission needs servicing more often than I expected but I DIY everything so the cost has been low.

I had a stripped left lugnut and a leaky right side front strut @ ~100K miles that basically required me to tear down the front end and rebuild. One of those little things that led to more things situation.

Leaky strut, replaced. Let's do brakes too. During assembly one lug nut cross threaded itself so I had to remove the left hub assembly to access the lug stud. That required pressing the hub  out of the bearing which led to bearing replacment, which led to a balljoint that would not release from the steering knuckle which required me cutting it out, and replacing the lower control arm, and why not do the right side at the same time, oops the axle popped out and the CV boot tore, and why can't I get the axle nut to release so buy a huge breaker bar and a better impact gun, etc. etc. etc. In the end the cost was not that high but it was alot of work.

I don't necessarily blame that on Honda but it would have been nice if their hub assembly allowed for lug stud replacement w/o teardown like other cars I've worked on.

[geekette]

Our '23 Kia Niro has had one annual maintenance, all but tire rotation included.  I'm pretty sure it was just eyeballing things, though.

It had the software recall for the brake lights not lighting up appropriately with i-pedal.

We're currently fussing with the local dealership because the AC charging system overheats and fails if you charge it faster than about 7kW (it's supposed to AC charge at up to 11kW).  DC fast charging is unaffected, and it still charges fine overnight on AC here at home, but it's not as quick as advertised. 

Our problem really showed up at a hotel free charger that was set to offer ~10kW.  It kept overheating and stopping. 

The stupid dealership only has a 1.2kW Level 1 charger, a 6kW Level 2 charger, and a DC fast charger, so of course they say they can't duplicate the problem.

[AlanStache]

Our '23 Kia Niro has had one annual maintenance, all but tire rotation included.  I'm pretty sure it was just eyeballing things, though.

It had the software recall for the brake lights not lighting up appropriately with i-pedal.

We're currently fussing with the local dealership because the AC charging system overheats and fails if you charge it faster than about 7kW (it's supposed to AC charge at up to 11kW).  DC fast charging is unaffected, and it still charges fine overnight on AC here at home, but it's not as quick as advertised. 

Our problem really showed up at a hotel free charger that was set to offer ~10kW.  It kept overheating and stopping. 

The stupid dealership only has a 1.2kW Level 1 charger, a 6kW Level 2 charger, and a DC fast charger, so of course they say they can't duplicate the problem.

"Cant duplicate" ie they dont want to buy the tools needed to service the vehicle. 

[geekette]

Our '23 Kia Niro has had one annual maintenance, all but tire rotation included.  I'm pretty sure it was just eyeballing things, though.

It had the software recall for the brake lights not lighting up appropriately with i-pedal.

We're currently fussing with the local dealership because the AC charging system overheats and fails if you charge it faster than about 7kW (it's supposed to AC charge at up to 11kW).  DC fast charging is unaffected, and it still charges fine overnight on AC here at home, but it's not as quick as advertised. 

Our problem really showed up at a hotel free charger that was set to offer ~10kW.  It kept overheating and stopping. 

The stupid dealership only has a 1.2kW Level 1 charger, a 6kW Level 2 charger, and a DC fast charger, so of course they say they can't duplicate the problem.

"Cant duplicate" ie they dont want to buy the tools needed to service the vehicle.

I also had the "high voltage certified" tech try to mansplain charging to me.  :: rolls eyes ::