Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[lemonlyman]

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5s are in the $25k range now as well. Crazy market.

[Dancin'Dog]

I'm looking forward to seeing a Canoo in person.  I've watched a few legitimate reviews, but it's been a while.  There are a ton of AI-generated teaser videos now, so "who knows" if/when they will actually make it to market.


I like the modular, minivan/SUV look.  It seems roomy and versatile. 

[NorCal]

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5s are in the $25k range now as well. Crazy market.

I would absolutely jump on that if I was in the market for a car.  I honestly think the Hyandai/Kia EV's are the overall best options on the market today. 

[bacchi]

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5s are in the $25k range now as well. Crazy market.

I would absolutely jump on that if I was in the market for a car.  I honestly think the Hyandai/Kia EV's are the overall best options on the market today.

Hyundai dealer this weekend:

Us: So you're registered for the point-of-sale EV tax credit program?
Sales: Oh yeah, of course, of course.
Us: Because without that $4000 tax credit, we won't buy it.
Sales: Understood.
<shows us print out of all-in price of $25,500 + TTL>
Us: ?? The dealer price has to be $25k or less in order for the EV tax credit to work. Remove the "paint protection" and the numbers will work.
Sales: Ok, let me talk to my manager.

<10 minutes lapses>

Sales: Ok, he'll let you have it for the special price of $25,000 even.
Us: Great, let's do this. That's $25K + TTL - $4000 we owe you. How much deposit can we put on a card?
Sales: No, you'll have to get the $4000 tax credit when you do your taxes.
Us: <big sigh> I'll send you the IRS link. Let us know when you sign up.

It's like they're working against themselves.

[nereo]

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5s are in the $25k range now as well. Crazy market.

I would absolutely jump on that if I was in the market for a car.  I honestly think the Hyandai/Kia EV's are the overall best options on the market today.

Hyundai dealer this weekend:

Us: So you're registered for the point-of-sale EV tax credit program?
Sales: Oh yeah, of course, of course.
Us: Because without that $4000 tax credit, we won't buy it.
Sales: Understood.
<shows us print out of all-in price of $25,500 + TTL>
Us: ?? The dealer price has to be $25k or less in order for the EV tax credit to work. Remove the "paint protection" and the numbers will work.
Sales: Ok, let me talk to my manager.

<10 minutes lapses>

Sales: Ok, he'll let you have it for the special price of $25,000 even.
Us: Great, let's do this. That's $25K + TTL - $4000 we owe you. How much deposit can we put on a card?
Sales: No, you'll have to get the $4000 tax credit when you do your taxes.
Us: <big sigh> I'll send you the IRS link. Let us know when you sign up.

It's like they're working against themselves.

Our experience last year was similar. We tried to buy the car we had ordered at the price we agreed upon but the dealer couldn’t figure out how to submit the state EV tax credit. It took them 3 days to get it right. Literally no one there knew how to register the guaranteed state rebate

[Tyson]

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5s are in the $25k range now as well. Crazy market.

I would absolutely jump on that if I was in the market for a car.  I honestly think the Hyandai/Kia EV's are the overall best options on the market today.

Hyundai dealer this weekend:

Us: So you're registered for the point-of-sale EV tax credit program?
Sales: Oh yeah, of course, of course.
Us: Because without that $4000 tax credit, we won't buy it.
Sales: Understood.
<shows us print out of all-in price of $25,500 + TTL>
Us: ?? The dealer price has to be $25k or less in order for the EV tax credit to work. Remove the "paint protection" and the numbers will work.
Sales: Ok, let me talk to my manager.

<10 minutes lapses>

Sales: Ok, he'll let you have it for the special price of $25,000 even.
Us: Great, let's do this. That's $25K + TTL - $4000 we owe you. How much deposit can we put on a card?
Sales: No, you'll have to get the $4000 tax credit when you do your taxes.
Us: <big sigh> I'll send you the IRS link. Let us know when you sign up.

It's like they're working against themselves.

Our experience last year was similar. We tried to buy the car we had ordered at the price we agreed upon but the dealer couldn’t figure out how to submit the state EV tax credit. It took them 3 days to get it right. Literally no one there knew how to register the guaranteed state rebate

One nice thing when I bought my Tesla, no dealers to deal with.  Took me about 15 minutes, online, to put in my order.  Not only did they know about the $7500 tax rebate, but they also knew about the $5k state tax for Colorado.  I never realized how stressful going to a dealer was, until I didn't have to.

[Paper Chaser]

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5s are in the $25k range now as well. Crazy market.

Hertz is starting to sell off their fleet of Tesla Model 3's too. Looks like $21-22k gets you a standard range Model 3 with around 75k miles:

https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-cars-for-sale.htm?geoZip=46201&geoRadius=0&search=tesla&sortBy=internetPrice%20asc

[jinga nation]

2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5s are in the $25k range now as well. Crazy market.

Hertz is starting to sell off their fleet of Tesla Model 3's too. Looks like $21-22k gets you a standard range Model 3 with around 75k miles:

https://www.hertzcarsales.com/used-cars-for-sale.htm?geoZip=46201&geoRadius=0&search=tesla&sortBy=internetPrice%20asc

Based on my anecdotal experiences with Hertz Teslas in 2023, I'd steer clear.

Rented one in the northeast from airport. Was in shit condition, plastic panels loose, touchscreen was iffy in some areas, didn't respond. Had to make very hard taps, which was scary as I thought I'd break it. Drove for a day and swapped for another Model 3. This one was a bit better, but the drive feel was different. Wondered if suspension had issues.

In DC, Boston, and NY, used Uber and the rides were Model 3s. Every single one was a Hertz weekly rental. These guys are 2-man teams who drive it for 14-16 hours daily, which means probably going to superchargers at least 2x/day. They drive them fast and hard, so the vehicles have an accelerated wear and tear on components. Wondering on the electric motors and batteries' condition due to this usage. I don't think they are designed to be fleet cars.

I'd read a report earlier about Hertz getting rid of them because of high repair costs and lower resale values compared to ICE vehicles.
Sixt is doing the same in Europe. https://www.benzinga.com/news/23/12/36064234/tesla-less-appealing-to-car-rentals-europes-sixt-to-phase-out-tesla-cars-after-hertz

[AlanStache]

Not sure I would buy any rental car knowing how I have driven them myself. 

Selling the EV's may not be a knock on EV's but rather the business model they tried with them. 

But it if gets Tom Brady off the youtube adds then I am all for it. 

[CatamaranSailor]

I have recently been hearing horror stories about EV insurance rates skyrocketing. Curious if any EV owners here have had major increases in premiums?

[geekette]

Not here.  For our renewal starting 2/1, it went down a few dollars.  2023 Kia Niro EV in NC

[Paper Chaser]

I have recently been hearing horror stories about EV insurance rates skyrocketing. Curious if any EV owners here have had major increases in premiums?

EV's tend to be expensive luxury vehicles made with lots of expensive tech/components. They cost a lot to repair.

In addition, many of the states with the highest rates of EV adoption have also experienced extreme weather events on an increasingly common basis, so EV owners may be experiencing those increases at a higher rate than ICE owners.

All that being said, car insurance rates in general have exploded in the last couple of years:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/13/business/inflation-car-insurance-rate-increases/index.html

[lemonlyman]

I wonder how many Hertz was able to unload in one day. The refreshed Model 3 was released today.

[waltworks]

I have recently been hearing horror stories about EV insurance rates skyrocketing. Curious if any EV owners here have had major increases in premiums?

We pseudo-selfinsure (liability only) and at least for that, the insurance for our Bolt is pretty identical to our ICE car.

For comprehensive/collision I have no idea, though I'd be suspicious of any blanket statements about EVs being more expensive to insure, since they're generally more expensive than ICE cars to buy (and hence to replace if totalled). Insuring a $50k model Y is not going to be as cheap as insuring a Corolla or something.

-W

[NorCal]

I have recently been hearing horror stories about EV insurance rates skyrocketing. Curious if any EV owners here have had major increases in premiums?

We pseudo-selfinsure (liability only) and at least for that, the insurance for our Bolt is pretty identical to our ICE car.

For comprehensive/collision I have no idea, though I'd be suspicious of any blanket statements about EVs being more expensive to insure, since they're generally more expensive than ICE cars to buy (and hence to replace if totalled). Insuring a $50k model Y is not going to be as cheap as insuring a Corolla or something.

-W

My rates went up a couple hundred dollars for my 6 month policy for an EV.  But it didn't seem outrageous given that the EV was a significantly more expensive vehicle than my decade-old Mazda.

[alsoknownasDean]

I wonder if some people are holding off on buying CCS1 vehicles given many carmakers are moving to NACS in NA?

I'm guessing the resale of CCS1 or CHAdeMO vehicles may suffer in a few years.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[LD_TAndK]

I wonder if some people are holding off on buying CCS1 vehicles given many carmakers are moving to NACS in NA?

I'm guessing the resale of CCS1 or CHAdeMO vehicles may suffer in a few years.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

On other electric car forums I read it seems people would prefer to buy a NACS car, but aren't ruling out CCS cars. NACS is just preferred for convenience. Many a folk pull the trigger on a CCS car anyways when it is a good deal for them. So I think long term yeah CCS is going to depress a car's price by a small amount but not devastatingly

Of course these people are more literate in electric cars and understand charging adapters.

[NorCal]

I wonder if some people are holding off on buying CCS1 vehicles given many carmakers are moving to NACS in NA?

I'm guessing the resale of CCS1 or CHAdeMO vehicles may suffer in a few years.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

On other electric car forums I read it seems people would prefer to buy a NACS car, but aren't ruling out CCS cars. NACS is just preferred for convenience. Many a folk pull the trigger on a CCS car anyways when it is a good deal for them. So I think long term yeah CCS is going to depress a car's price by a small amount but not devastatingly

Of course these people are more literate in electric cars and understand charging adapters.

I know there are some people that are holding out.  I don't think it's a huge percentage of potential buyers based on my anecdotal conversations, but it's not zero either. 

My personal take is that the transition is the right call, but it's going to be chaotic for a few years and will probably do more to delay the EV transition than to accelerate it.

Here's my list of some of the underappreciated logistical challenges that are coming:

1. The NACS conversion will open up some of the Tesla network to everyone.  Tesla has upgraded their superchargers over the years, with four versions in the wild (V1 through V4).  V1 and V2 chargers aren't compatible with the new standards.  So everyone gets to use the V3 and V4 chargers.  This will confuse a lot of people.  Making charging more confusing for new EV customers is the opposite of what's needed now.  I don't have a great sense of how many chargers of each generation there are.

2. The charge cables on the Tesla Superchargers are deliberately short, as longer cables limit the amount of current you can put through them.  This is physics.  The cables on Superchargers won't reach the charge port on most non-Tesla EV's while parking like a sane person.  Most EV's will have to park to charge in a way that blocks multiple stalls.  This is just a recipe for conflict.  Hopefully the new NACS cars get charge ports in a consistent location (which would help other charging networks lay out their stations too), but this does nothing to help those that are relying on a CCS to NACS adapter.  Or those waiting in line for someone with a CCS to NACS adapter to finish.

3. Given the points above, most non-Tesla EV's will still be looking for alternative networks like Electrify America.  While all networks have committed to adding NACS plugs, this will take a few years.  So all NACS cars will still need an adapter to CCS for the foreseeable future.  You'll be relying on an adapter for many years regardless of which charge port you have. 

[geekette]

I think many are just making it hard. The plug is nothing but an arrangement of (hefty) wires and connections. Many Tesla owners have bought adapters so they could use CCS chargers, so as things swing toward NACS, those with CCS can buy adapters that go the other way.

Musk has been promising to open up Tesla Superchargers, but there still aren’t any within 300 miles of me, so meh.

It won’t change how I charge - plug it in at home.  I wouldn’t sweat it.

[NorCal]

I think many are just making it hard. The plug is nothing but an arrangement of (hefty) wires and connections. Many Tesla owners have bought adapters so they could use CCS chargers, so as things swing toward NACS, those with CCS can buy adapters that go the other way.

Musk has been promising to open up Tesla Superchargers, but there still aren’t any within 300 miles of me, so meh.

It won’t change how I charge - plug it in at home.  I wouldn’t sweat it.

It's not really pertinent to the consumer facing side of this, but my wife has some clients that are involved in the software side of this transition.

The behind-the-scenes side of this is actually incredibly complicated.  The trick is making it seem simple.  It's not just an adapter that goes from plug A to B.  I'm no expert myself, but here's some of my laypersons understanding of what needs to be solved behind the scenes.

1. The data communication protocol between the NACS and CCS  chargers is different.  My understanding is the older Tesla Superchargers (V1 and V2) can't be upgraded to the new standards.  This means software updates for both chargers and cars.  And with dozens of manufacturers of each, there needs to be trust that everyone's software can talk to everyone.  This won't be cheap or easy to test. 

2. CCS has different physical wires for AC charging (240V) vs DCFC (I believe it's typically 400V, but it can vary).  NACS uses the same physical wires for both AC charging and DCFC.  This kinda freaks some electricians out.  Applying the wrong voltage to one of those wires involves expensive hardware getting very sparky and burny.

3. Everyone has been using 240V for AC charging to-date, but the new standard introduces 277V AC charging.  This should make AC chargers cheaper to install.  But I'm not smart enough to know all the downstream implications of this.  I suspect it's non-trivial.

[geekette]

I've watched Technology Connections video on the switch, and (not being a techie), it seems that the big software change will be on Tesla's side, but yeah, apparently it's complicated even with CCS equipped cars and CCS charging stations.

The NACS' use of the same pins for AC and DC chargers does seem like it could make things spicy.

So when's that Supercharger network going to open up again?  They've been touting it for a couple years now, and there's not much happening.

[Tyson]

I've watched Technology Connections video on the switch, and (not being a techie), it seems that the big software change will be on Tesla's side, but yeah, apparently it's complicated even with CCS equipped cars and CCS charging stations.

The NACS' use of the same pins for AC and DC chargers does seem like it could make things spicy.

So when's that Supercharger network going to open up again?  They've been touting it for a couple years now, and there's not much happening.

It's already open, but other manufacturers are taking their time with rolling it out to their own cars.  Looks like most of the other guys will have models with NACS ports starting in 2025:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44388939/tesla-nacs-charging-network-compatibility/

[NorCal]

I've watched Technology Connections video on the switch, and (not being a techie), it seems that the big software change will be on Tesla's side, but yeah, apparently it's complicated even with CCS equipped cars and CCS charging stations.

The NACS' use of the same pins for AC and DC chargers does seem like it could make things spicy.

So when's that Supercharger network going to open up again?  They've been touting it for a couple years now, and there's not much happening.

The few Superchargers with the built in "Magic Dock" (aka CCS adapter) are already open.  I haven't used one yet, but I've seen good reviews.  Albeit they're having to take up two stalls to make it work.

Rivian is promising the adapter in "early 2024", which probably means sometime this summer based on prior commitments. 

[geekette]

They may say they are open, but there just aren’t many that actually are. I have the app. The closest superchargers to me, are in Alabaster, Alabama and Easton, MD. If I were relying on Tesla superchargers, I’d be sunk.

There are a smattering of “destination chargers”, which are basically level 2. W00t.

[PathtoFIRE]

I'm definitely waiting for NACS adoption before purchasing another EV, though I already have a Tesla. While I'm now comfortable with ditching our second ICE car, I'm delaying going full EV until that happens; I'm eyeing the R1S and the ID.Buzz. The only manufacturer that I'm aware of that's going NACS from the ground up is Aptera, but it looks like those have been delayed until at least 2025, plus it's more like a two-seater sports car purchase rather than a family people mover.

[RWD]

The only manufacturer that I'm aware of that's going NACS from the ground up is Aptera, but it looks like those have been delayed until at least 2025, plus it's more like a two-seater sports car purchase rather than a family people mover.

I'm sure they'll be available any day now...

(Picture from Road & Track, May 2009)

[alsoknownasDean]

I've firmly filed that Aptera under 'vaporware' at this point.

I wonder if we'll see conversations of CCS1 cars to NACS?

Are there chargers with card readers over there or are all payments handled in-app? Although given how non-existent tap and go was when I was in the US in 2015...

I rented an EV in October and ended up installing/registering for two payment apps. I didn't mind but it's definitely a bit more friction.

I'm looking to buy an EV once my 20 year old ICE needs replacement. Probably a while off but still find EVs interesting. Hopefully by then we see more vehicles with V2H and larger LFP batteries.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[NorCal]

I've firmly filed that Aptera under 'vaporware' at this point.

I wonder if we'll see conversations of CCS1 cars to NACS?

Are there chargers with card readers over there or are all payments handled in-app? Although given how non-existent tap and go was when I was in the US in 2015...

I rented an EV in October and ended up installing/registering for two payment apps. I didn't mind but it's definitely a bit more friction.

I'm looking to buy an EV once my 20 year old ICE needs replacement. Probably a while off but still find EVs interesting. Hopefully by then we see more vehicles with V2H and larger LFP batteries.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

I've talked to a few people in the EV industry, and none see a path for Aptera to deliver cars in volume.  I kinda hope they're wrong, as there's a lot to be said for super efficient vehicles.  But I think they're probably right.

Part of the problem with chargers is that the payment methods are inconsistent, even within the same network.  And payment devices are a common point of failure on chargers.  Some EA chargers have card readers and some don't.  Sometimes the card readers are broken meaning you have to use the RFID/phone option.  Sometimes the RFID option is broken, but the card reader works.  Every station is different.

I'm trying to imagine my mom navigating the EV situation.  She'd probably appreciate an EV, but she doesn't have or want a smart phone.  I also don't think she could easily manipulate a CCS cable. 

[alsoknownasDean]

I've talked to a few people in the EV industry, and none see a path for Aptera to deliver cars in volume.  I kinda hope they're wrong, as there's a lot to be said for super efficient vehicles.  But I think they're probably right.

Part of the problem with chargers is that the payment methods are inconsistent, even within the same network.  And payment devices are a common point of failure on chargers.  Some EA chargers have card readers and some don't.  Sometimes the card readers are broken meaning you have to use the RFID/phone option.  Sometimes the RFID option is broken, but the card reader works.  Every station is different.

I'm trying to imagine my mom navigating the EV situation.  She'd probably appreciate an EV, but she doesn't have or want a smart phone.  I also don't think she could easily manipulate a CCS cable.

I think the Aptera was an interesting idea 15 years ago but now there's plenty of EVs around that don't look like a science experiment. Cheap efficient EVs are coming out of China all the time (the BYD Seagull or Wuling Hongguang Mini EV among many others), but of course most are unlikely to make it Stateside.

Yeah payments need to be sorted out. Roadside micropayments were sorted out decades ago, and many modern parking meters have no problem with cash/cards. Surely it's possible to integrate those with EV chargers.

We had an issue a couple of months ago where one of the main mobile networks went down for a day and many chargers ended up going offline as a result.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

[Just Joe]

Do charger networks not employ someone to roam around in a specified territory and repair equipment?

[LD_TAndK]

The Aptera got me thinking... I'd like an efficient solar charging car, needs four wheels and a back seat though.

We only have space to charge one car at a time in our driveway. If we have two electric cars we'd have to shuffle them around to charge them. If the less-used car could add 5 miles of range a day it'd keep itself topped off mostly, in the sunnier months.

A trim of the prius prime can in the best case add 4 miles a day. Not quite enough and wouldn't want to have the ICE to maintain. Maybe the old Ioniq EV (250 Wh/mile EPA rating) with a 400 Watt solar panel bolted to the roof

[EchoStache]

The Aptera got me thinking... I'd like an efficient solar charging car, needs four wheels and a back seat though.

We only have space to charge one car at a time in our driveway. If we have two electric cars we'd have to shuffle them around to charge them. If the less-used car could add 5 miles of range a day it'd keep itself topped off mostly, in the sunnier months.

A trim of the prius prime can in the best case add 4 miles a day. Not quite enough and wouldn't want to have the ICE to maintain. Maybe the old Ioniq EV (250 Wh/mile EPA rating) with a 400 Watt solar panel bolted to the roof

I'm wondering if a DIY 1-3 panel ground mount solar array would be easy and inexpensive to DIY.  With any EV or PHEV, if you could get a 120v power source from solar it would be easy to charge with the cars included trickle charger.

Used Chevy Bolts are a great deal...easily under $18k, $4k federal credit, whatever state credit you get.  Batteries will be brand new and warranty for ten year due to recall of every Bolt ever sold.

As far as space in the driveway, many included charging cables will reach >a full car length to an outlet if its close enough.

[evme]

Used Chevy Bolts are a great deal...easily under $18k, $4k federal credit, whatever state credit you get.  Batteries will be brand new and warranty for ten year due to recall of every Bolt ever sold.

Wasn't the big battery recall/replacement on Chevy Bolts back in 2021 or 2022? So not exactly brand new but relatively new...

[NorCal]

The Aptera got me thinking... I'd like an efficient solar charging car, needs four wheels and a back seat though.

We only have space to charge one car at a time in our driveway. If we have two electric cars we'd have to shuffle them around to charge them. If the less-used car could add 5 miles of range a day it'd keep itself topped off mostly, in the sunnier months.

A trim of the prius prime can in the best case add 4 miles a day. Not quite enough and wouldn't want to have the ICE to maintain. Maybe the old Ioniq EV (250 Wh/mile EPA rating) with a 400 Watt solar panel bolted to the roof

Look at the Grizzle Duo charger.  It may or may not fit the space you have available, but it gives you two fairly long charging cables that could reach multiple cars if positioned right.

[RWD]

The Aptera got me thinking... I'd like an efficient solar charging car, needs four wheels and a back seat though.

We only have space to charge one car at a time in our driveway. If we have two electric cars we'd have to shuffle them around to charge them. If the less-used car could add 5 miles of range a day it'd keep itself topped off mostly, in the sunnier months.

A trim of the prius prime can in the best case add 4 miles a day. Not quite enough and wouldn't want to have the ICE to maintain. Maybe the old Ioniq EV (250 Wh/mile EPA rating) with a 400 Watt solar panel bolted to the roof

There was a promising solar car...
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a43094005/sono-sion-solar-ev-canceled/

[mizzourah2006]

The Aptera got me thinking... I'd like an efficient solar charging car, needs four wheels and a back seat though.

We only have space to charge one car at a time in our driveway. If we have two electric cars we'd have to shuffle them around to charge them. If the less-used car could add 5 miles of range a day it'd keep itself topped off mostly, in the sunnier months.

A trim of the prius prime can in the best case add 4 miles a day. Not quite enough and wouldn't want to have the ICE to maintain. Maybe the old Ioniq EV (250 Wh/mile EPA rating) with a 400 Watt solar panel bolted to the roof

I'm assuming by this you mean that you can only fit one car in your driveway? If possible, you could always just use an extension cord and a 110v outlet and trickle charge. that should still get you around 3-5 miles per hour.

[waltworks]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think you need a dedicated charger. But if you're only driving ~50 or fewer miles a day, you can just plug into any old cheapo 15A 110V outlet in your garage/house overnight, and you will be able to keep the car charged just fine.

If you want to drive farther some of the time, you'll need either a 240v setup at your house, or to use public chargers (more expensive).

90% of our charging is just trickle charging.

-W

[mizzourah2006]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think you need a dedicated charger. But if you're only driving ~50 or fewer miles a day, you can just plug into any old cheapo 15A 110V outlet in your garage/house overnight, and you will be able to keep the car charged just fine.

If you want to drive farther some of the time, you'll need either a 240v setup at your house, or to use public chargers (more expensive).

90% of our charging is just trickle charging.

-W

Yup, we trickle charge our PHEV 98% of the time and every once in a while we might use the Tesla wall charger if we are planning to take the PHEV somewhere in the next 3-5 hours and need to get some more range. It can easily trickle charge from 0 miles to 35 miles overnight.

[JLee]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think you need a dedicated charger. But if you're only driving ~50 or fewer miles a day, you can just plug into any old cheapo 15A 110V outlet in your garage/house overnight, and you will be able to keep the car charged just fine.

If you want to drive farther some of the time, you'll need either a 240v setup at your house, or to use public chargers (more expensive).

90% of our charging is just trickle charging.

-W

One caveat here that I learned when a friend had to trickle charge his Model 3 outside in winter -- if it's cold enough, battery conditioning will take more power than the 15a charger can provide and you may end up with the same or less charge in the morning.  Warm weather (or a reasonably warm garage) would prevent that, of course.

[Tyson]

If possible it's best to install a dedicated charger.  That's what I did.  The cool thing was Xcel energy (our local energy company here in CO) has a rebate program for anyone installing an EV charger.  $500.  I didn't quite believe it, but I filled out the form, uploaded my receipt and a couple weeks later they sent me a $500 check.  Nice!

One thing I learned recently is that anyone that has an electric dryer can charge their EV from the dryer's electrical socket.  Just need an adapter for your car and it will plug right in.  You'll get between 20 and 40 miles worth of charge, per hour.  Obviously this is not a great long-term solution, but might be useful in a pinch.

[geekette]

Our electric company paid to install the wiring and the EVSE (but not for the EVSE itself).  In the US, there's a 30% federal tax credit for the EVSE and wiring, up to $1000.

[Tyson]

Our electric company paid to install the wiring and the EVSE (but not for the EVSE itself).  In the US, there's a 30% federal tax credit for the EVSE and wiring, up to $1000.

Oh I did not know that.  That's awesome.  More money coming back to me, thank you for telling me!

[Paper Chaser]

One thing I learned recently is that anyone that has an electric dryer can charge their EV from the dryer's electrical socket.  Just need an adapter for your car and it will plug right in.  You'll get between 20 and 40 miles worth of charge, per hour.  Obviously this is not a great long-term solution, but might be useful in a pinch.

A typical 240v electric dryer outlet is 30 amps which is only good for 10-20 miles of range per hour in my experience. You'd need a 240v circuit with higher amperage (and a vehicle willing to accept it) to get more than that.

[mizzourah2006]

One thing I learned recently is that anyone that has an electric dryer can charge their EV from the dryer's electrical socket.  Just need an adapter for your car and it will plug right in.  You'll get between 20 and 40 miles worth of charge, per hour.  Obviously this is not a great long-term solution, but might be useful in a pinch.

A typical 240v electric dryer outlet is 30 amps which is only good for 10-20 miles of range per hour in my experience. You'd need a 240v circuit with higher amperage (and a vehicle willing to accept it) to get more than that.

32 amps will get me about 8kwh an hour, so that's around 28-32 miles per hour for my Model Y. I'd assume for a smaller car it would be even more. 48 gets me to 12-13 kwh an hour.

[Tyson]

One thing I learned recently is that anyone that has an electric dryer can charge their EV from the dryer's electrical socket.  Just need an adapter for your car and it will plug right in.  You'll get between 20 and 40 miles worth of charge, per hour.  Obviously this is not a great long-term solution, but might be useful in a pinch.

A typical 240v electric dryer outlet is 30 amps which is only good for 10-20 miles of range per hour in my experience. You'd need a 240v circuit with higher amperage (and a vehicle willing to accept it) to get more than that.

32 amps will get me about 8kwh an hour, so that's around 28-32 miles per hour for my Model Y. I'd assume for a smaller car it would be even more. 48 gets me to 12-13 kwh an hour.

I guess the main thing I was trying to point out is that you aren't 'stuck' if you run low on battery and aren't near a super charger.  Anyone with an electric dryer could help you out in an emergency.

[pecunia]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think you need a dedicated charger. But if you're only driving ~50 or fewer miles a day, you can just plug into any old cheapo 15A 110V outlet in your garage/house overnight, and you will be able to keep the car charged just fine.

If you want to drive farther some of the time, you'll need either a 240v setup at your house, or to use public chargers (more expensive).

90% of our charging is just trickle charging.

-W

One caveat here that I learned when a friend had to trickle charge his Model 3 outside in winter -- if it's cold enough, battery conditioning will take more power than the 15a charger can provide and you may end up with the same or less charge in the morning.  Warm weather (or a reasonably warm garage) would prevent that, of course.

Wow!  My old 6 volt VW Beetle used to lose battery charge on cold Winter's days.  I used to take the battery into the warm house to guarantee a morning start.  That was bad.  Your description sounds a whole lot worse.  That is reason enough to not buy an electric only car.

[EchoStache]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think you need a dedicated charger. But if you're only driving ~50 or fewer miles a day, you can just plug into any old cheapo 15A 110V outlet in your garage/house overnight, and you will be able to keep the car charged just fine.

If you want to drive farther some of the time, you'll need either a 240v setup at your house, or to use public chargers (more expensive).

90% of our charging is just trickle charging.

-W

One caveat here that I learned when a friend had to trickle charge his Model 3 outside in winter -- if it's cold enough, battery conditioning will take more power than the 15a charger can provide and you may end up with the same or less charge in the morning.  Warm weather (or a reasonably warm garage) would prevent that, of course.

Wow!  My old 6 volt VW Beetle used to lose battery charge on cold Winter's days.  I used to take the battery into the warm house to guarantee a morning start.  That was bad.  Your description sounds a whole lot worse.  That is reason enough to not buy an electric only car.

11 degrees this morning.  We both drove our EV's to work and back....60 mile round trip commute.  No issues.  Didn't have to stop at a gas station and freeze while pumping gas.  Cars were "full" and warm when we left for work.  Cars were warmed up when we left work.  No gas, no pollution.  Pulled back in the garage, took ~5 seconds to plug back in.  Cars will be warm and full in the morning.  $1.20 per commute.

All the people I passed at the gas station looked really cold pumping gas.

See, anyone can cherry pick a scenario and be like "oh no gas cars are terrible I'll never buy one" or "oh no EV's are terrible I'll never buy one."

Those who find themselves in the gas and oil anti ev media campaign echo chamber are easily influenced against EV's.  They know this, and thank you for your loyalty($$$).

[Tyson]

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think you need a dedicated charger. But if you're only driving ~50 or fewer miles a day, you can just plug into any old cheapo 15A 110V outlet in your garage/house overnight, and you will be able to keep the car charged just fine.

If you want to drive farther some of the time, you'll need either a 240v setup at your house, or to use public chargers (more expensive).

90% of our charging is just trickle charging.

-W

One caveat here that I learned when a friend had to trickle charge his Model 3 outside in winter -- if it's cold enough, battery conditioning will take more power than the 15a charger can provide and you may end up with the same or less charge in the morning.  Warm weather (or a reasonably warm garage) would prevent that, of course.

Wow!  My old 6 volt VW Beetle used to lose battery charge on cold Winter's days.  I used to take the battery into the warm house to guarantee a morning start.  That was bad.  Your description sounds a whole lot worse.  That is reason enough to not buy an electric only car.

This is exactly why you have an adapter so you can use an electric dryer outlet instead of a regular wall outlet.  Of course the best solution is to simply install a charger at your house.  Those are capable of 40a and can put about 40 miles worth of energy into the battery in an hour.

Why in the world would someone use a regular 15a wall outlet to charge their EV in winter?  That's pretty dumb. 

[nereo]

Why in the world would someone use a regular 15a wall outlet to charge their EV in winter?  That's pretty dumb.

I did it for the first two years without issue. As others have said, if your commute isn’t terrible you can start each day with a full battery, even with “just” a standard 15a circuit. In the dead of winter with single digits I’d still get 2+ miles of battery per hour, so plugging it in around 8pm a leaving around 7:30 and I’d have more than enough to cover my 20 mile round trip commute, starting each day with a full battery.

I suspect the issue mentioned earlier about a Tesla losing charge has to do with “phantom drain”, which is an issue that can plague Tesla owners who don’t understand their cars. Tesla had so many features onboard that can be a battery drain if not properly turned off, and unfortunately it’s not always obvious. Battery conditioning and preconditioning are big culprits but can be controlled (timed) with the onboard system. A number of apps also interface with the car and can made you think the car is off when it isn’t.

[Tyson]

Why in the world would someone use a regular 15a wall outlet to charge their EV in winter?  That's pretty dumb.

I did it for the first two years without issue. As others have said, if your commute isn’t terrible you can start each day with a full battery, even with “just” a standard 15a circuit. In the dead of winter with single digits I’d still get 2+ miles of battery per hour, so plugging it in around 8pm a leaving around 7:30 and I’d have more than enough to cover my 20 mile round trip commute, starting each day with a full battery.

I suspect the issue mentioned earlier about a Tesla losing charge has to do with “phantom drain”, which is an issue that can plague Tesla owners who don’t understand their cars. Tesla had so many features onboard that can be a battery drain if not properly turned off, and unfortunately it’s not always obvious. Battery conditioning and preconditioning are big culprits but can be controlled (timed) with the onboard system. A number of apps also interface with the car and can made you think the car is off when it isn’t.

Very true.  For me the biggest one is Sentry Mode.  If you leave it in Sentry Mode you definitely get significant battery drain.