Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[Paper Chaser]

The new Ioniq 5 was just revealed. Looks really compelling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rnvzLmT4-w

I love all the space between the front seats - no grotty foot wells - and a place for my hand bag

This has more rear legroom than a Lexus LS despite being two feet shorter. Also, the rear seats are power operated and can slide forward to give more cargo space if you don't need all that legroom. I've never seen anything like this.

The wheelbase is 4" longer than Hyundai's Palisade 3-row CUV! This thing should ride really smoothly

[jrhampt]

I've had my eye on the Ioniqs.  The Prius Prime is my #1 choice and the Ioniq is #2 only because they are way less common (factors into ease of getting parts if necessary) and I don't know how they compare in terms of reliability.

[RWD]

I’m intrigued
We came very close to getting the Ioniq Phev.
Wonder why Hyundai is choosing to use the ioniq moniker across its platform. I think it was a mistake for Toyota to do the same with the Prius (there what, like five models of Prius and about ten different drive trains?)

I guess this is similar to what they did with Genesis. First it was a sedan. Then there was a coupe version. And finally they turned it into a brand with several vehicles.

[pecunia]

Porsche says they are developing clean synthetic fuels.  Could this be true or just advertising BS?

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/23/porsche-synthetic-fuel/

If synthetic fuels could be developed that are fully non polluting, I would think it would be developed and marketed by one of the big oil companies.  Liquid fuels have a higher energy density than batteries.

[nereo]

Porsche says they are developing clean synthetic fuels.  Could this be true or just advertising BS?

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/23/porsche-synthetic-fuel/

If synthetic fuels could be developed that are fully non polluting, I would think it would be developed and marketed by one of the big oil companies.  Liquid fuels have a higher energy density than batteries.

I wouldn't sit around hoping for a magic bullet. The challenges to developing biofuels have been discussed ad nauseam, but ultimately it boils down to the simple fact that petroleum is about 4-6x cheaper than the most economical biofuel. In comparison, BEVs and PHEVs cost less per mile than similar ICE vehicles under most circumstances.

If you're willing to pay $8/gallon and can get economies of scale going, sure... but then there's no economic reason to not use a BEV in the first place.

[Chris22]

Porsche says they are developing clean synthetic fuels.  Could this be true or just advertising BS?

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/23/porsche-synthetic-fuel/

If synthetic fuels could be developed that are fully non polluting, I would think it would be developed and marketed by one of the big oil companies.  Liquid fuels have a higher energy density than batteries.

I wouldn't sit around hoping for a magic bullet. The challenges to developing biofuels have been discussed ad nauseam, but ultimately it boils down to the simple fact that petroleum is about 4-6x cheaper than the most economical biofuel. In comparison, BEVs and PHEVs cost less per mile than similar ICE vehicles under most circumstances.

If you're willing to pay $8/gallon and can get economies of scale going, sure... but then there's no economic reason to not use a BEV in the first place.

Well yeah there’s a few huge reasons to use biofuel over BEVs...

1. Can continue using current vehicles (possibly with modifications) as opposed to replacing the fleet
2. Can continue using current infrastructure (gas stations etc) as opposed to replacing/building out EV charging stations
3.  Refueling speed advantage of ICE vs BEV
4.  No need to accommodate people who live in apartments or other places where charging is difficult (street parking)
5. Etc.

[JLee]

Porsche says they are developing clean synthetic fuels.  Could this be true or just advertising BS?

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/23/porsche-synthetic-fuel/

If synthetic fuels could be developed that are fully non polluting, I would think it would be developed and marketed by one of the big oil companies.  Liquid fuels have a higher energy density than batteries.

I wouldn't sit around hoping for a magic bullet. The challenges to developing biofuels have been discussed ad nauseam, but ultimately it boils down to the simple fact that petroleum is about 4-6x cheaper than the most economical biofuel. In comparison, BEVs and PHEVs cost less per mile than similar ICE vehicles under most circumstances.

If you're willing to pay $8/gallon and can get economies of scale going, sure... but then there's no economic reason to not use a BEV in the first place.

I remember paying $4+/gal back in...08? 09?  After inflation that's nearly $5/gal today, which isn't all that far off of $8.  With economy of scale helping drop that a bit, I think it has potential to be viable for niche market ICE (sports cars/etc).

[nereo]

Porsche says they are developing clean synthetic fuels.  Could this be true or just advertising BS?

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/23/porsche-synthetic-fuel/

If synthetic fuels could be developed that are fully non polluting, I would think it would be developed and marketed by one of the big oil companies.  Liquid fuels have a higher energy density than batteries.

I wouldn't sit around hoping for a magic bullet. The challenges to developing biofuels have been discussed ad nauseam, but ultimately it boils down to the simple fact that petroleum is about 4-6x cheaper than the most economical biofuel. In comparison, BEVs and PHEVs cost less per mile than similar ICE vehicles under most circumstances.

If you're willing to pay $8/gallon and can get economies of scale going, sure... but then there's no economic reason to not use a BEV in the first place.

Well yeah there’s a few huge reasons to use biofuel over BEVs...

1. Can continue using current vehicles (possibly with modifications) as opposed to replacing the fleet
2. Can continue using current infrastructure (gas stations etc) as opposed to replacing/building out EV charging stations
3.  Refueling speed advantage of ICE vs BEV
4.  No need to accommodate people who live in apartments or other places where charging is difficult (street parking)
5. Etc.

hence the "magic bullet" comment. 
It's far cheaper to use petroleum-based fuels, and I see little appetite for most drivers to pay north of $8/gallon (before taxes) when the infrastructure and distribution for gasoline and diesel is already well established and costing sub-$4 (and now sub $3 equivalent). Those who might pay that much for transportation on an environmental standpoint are already doing so via BEV/PHEVs (and doing so for far less).

Various biofuels have been available for decades, including veggie oil, algae-derived lipids and ethanol.  None have come anywhere close to competing with petroleum on price. 
For the record I;m not against synthetic liquid fuels, but short of massive carbon taxes I don't see them as economically viable.

[JLee]

Porsche says they are developing clean synthetic fuels.  Could this be true or just advertising BS?

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/02/23/porsche-synthetic-fuel/

If synthetic fuels could be developed that are fully non polluting, I would think it would be developed and marketed by one of the big oil companies.  Liquid fuels have a higher energy density than batteries.

I wouldn't sit around hoping for a magic bullet. The challenges to developing biofuels have been discussed ad nauseam, but ultimately it boils down to the simple fact that petroleum is about 4-6x cheaper than the most economical biofuel. In comparison, BEVs and PHEVs cost less per mile than similar ICE vehicles under most circumstances.

If you're willing to pay $8/gallon and can get economies of scale going, sure... but then there's no economic reason to not use a BEV in the first place.

Well yeah there’s a few huge reasons to use biofuel over BEVs...

1. Can continue using current vehicles (possibly with modifications) as opposed to replacing the fleet
2. Can continue using current infrastructure (gas stations etc) as opposed to replacing/building out EV charging stations
3.  Refueling speed advantage of ICE vs BEV
4.  No need to accommodate people who live in apartments or other places where charging is difficult (street parking)
5. Etc.

hence the "magic bullet" comment. 
It's far cheaper to use petroleum-based fuels, and I see little appetite for most drivers to pay north of $8/gallon (before taxes) when the infrastructure and distribution for gasoline and diesel is already well established and costing sub-$4 (and now sub $3 equivalent). Those who might pay that much for transportation on an environmental standpoint are already doing so via BEV/PHEVs (and doing so for far less).

Various biofuels have been available for decades, including veggie oil, algae-derived lipids and ethanol.  None have come anywhere close to competing with petroleum on price. 
For the record I;m not against synthetic liquid fuels, but short of massive carbon taxes I don't see them as economically viable.

That's an excellent point - though a heavy carbon tax on dino juice could help offset the added cost of synthetic fuel, bridging the gap a bit.  Ultimately that would require heavy regulation and a societal drive towards being more environmentally friendly, so it doesn't seem likely..

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

Premium fuel in Australia already costs $6/gallon so I wouldn't mind biofuel as an alternative particularly if it keeps ICE cars alive.

[nereo]

Premium fuel in Australia already costs $6/gallon so I wouldn't mind biofuel as an alternative particularly if it keeps ICE cars alive.

Huh??!!  ICE vehicles still make up >95% of all cars sold, and access to fuel isn’t a constraint.  Alternative combustion fuels already exist. You are trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist with a solution that does...

[Paper Chaser]

This "E-fuel" seems kind of interesting, but it also seems really inefficient.
The steps are basically:
1) Generate electricity (using wind/solar in this case)
2) Use that electricity to make hydrogen
3) Turn the hydrogen into methanol
4) Turn the methanol into gasoline/diesel/etc

Every one of those processes is going to require some level of loss, and is more or less unnecessary with current tech.
You can stop after step one and charge an EV. You can stop after step 2 and use a fuel cell. You can stop after step 3 and use different fueling in an ICE. The only reason to go all the way to step 4, and suffer the increased inefficiencies of each step is to keep older ICEs viable in the future. That's fine, but it's going to be a boutique product. The current cost is $37/gal. They're hoping to get it down to around $8/gal, but that's a tall order when they're only producing a few hundred thousand gallons per year:

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131366_porsche-claims-synthetically-fueled-cars-can-be-as-clean-as-evs

[pecunia]

Mankind has done miraculous things using technology and the economy of scale.  If there hadn't been a refining industry for over a hundred years constantly refining (get the pun) the process to make diesel fuel and gasoline, I could envision it costing over $30  gallon.  To stifle an industry will cause the price of the product to rise.  I used to work in the nuclear power industry.  I believe there has been some heavy stifling for that business which once was a promising source of energy.

The point being not to give up on alternate fuels without even giving them a chance.  It has not been mentioned, but they can also be blended with fossil fuels while not eliminating greenhouse gases, they would be reduced.

[nereo]

Mankind has done miraculous things using technology and the economy of scale.  If there hadn't been a refining industry for over a hundred years constantly refining (get the pun) the process to make diesel fuel and gasoline, I could envision it costing over $30  gallon.  To stifle an industry will cause the price of the product to rise.  I used to work in the nuclear power industry.  I believe there has been some heavy stifling for that business which once was a promising source of energy.

The point being not to give up on alternate fuels without even giving them a chance.  It has not been mentioned, but they can also be blended with fossil fuels while not eliminating greenhouse gases, they would be reduced.

I'm not sure where posters are getting this idea that we are "giving up" on alternative fuels, or that we haven't "given them a chance".  We've been mixing plant-derived ethanol into our gasoline supply en masse since WWII, and 30+ billion gallons/year since 2007's 'Renewable Fuels Standards". Companies and research institutions have been extensively investigating other bio-fuels for the last three decades, to the tune of billion$ annually.  There's at least a dozen companies currently exploring conversion of algae into fuel. We've had credits of $1/gallon to support biodiesel.
Virtually everyone would love to develop a carbon-neutral fuel source that was price-competitive with petroleum. Almost all the literature concludes this can't happen with oil trading in the double-digits.

[Paper Chaser]

Mankind has done miraculous things using technology and the economy of scale.  If there hadn't been a refining industry for over a hundred years constantly refining (get the pun) the process to make diesel fuel and gasoline, I could envision it costing over $30  gallon.  To stifle an industry will cause the price of the product to rise.  I used to work in the nuclear power industry.  I believe there has been some heavy stifling for that business which once was a promising source of energy.

The point being not to give up on alternate fuels without even giving them a chance.  It has not been mentioned, but they can also be blended with fossil fuels while not eliminating greenhouse gases, they would be reduced.

I'm not sure where posters are getting this idea that we are "giving up" on alternative fuels, or that we haven't "given them a chance".  We've been mixing plant-derived ethanol into our gasoline supply en masse since WWII, and 30+ billion gallons/year since 2007's 'Renewable Fuels Standards". Companies and research institutions have been extensively investigating other bio-fuels for the last three decades, to the tune of billion$ annually.  There's at least a dozen companies currently exploring conversion of algae into fuel. We've had credits of $1/gallon to support biodiesel.
Virtually everyone would love to develop a carbon-neutral fuel source that was price-competitive with petroleum. Almost all the literature concludes this can't happen with oil trading in the double-digits.

Also important to note that Porsche is only focusing on carbon emissions in their claims. These fuels would presumably still have some tailpipe emissions like NOx, Hydrocarbons, particulates, etc. Those might be better or worse than gasoline tailpipe emissions

[ericrugiero]

I am personally very excited by the thought of being able to power my house during outages (definitely a relevant topic right now) with bi-directional charging from an electric car. Helps justify a bigger battery in a car if it can have a dual purpose.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/wallbox-quasar-bi-directional-ev-charger-america/

This is cool and could easily be done.  The power company will have some concerns about safety (like they do with personal generators).  If they have a power outage and shut down the normal power source so a utility worker can repair the line safely they aren't going to want you plugging your car in and putting voltage on the transmission lines.  The fix is to interlock your home being disconnected from the power lines before you use your car to power your home.

[Chris22]

I am personally very excited by the thought of being able to power my house during outages (definitely a relevant topic right now) with bi-directional charging from an electric car. Helps justify a bigger battery in a car if it can have a dual purpose.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/wallbox-quasar-bi-directional-ev-charger-america/

This is cool and could easily be done.  The power company will have some concerns about safety (like they do with personal generators).  If they have a power outage and shut down the normal power source so a utility worker can repair the line safely they aren't going to want you plugging your car in and putting voltage on the transmission lines.  The fix is to interlock your home being disconnected from the power lines before you use your car to power your home.

I keep meaning to add something like this to my panel.  I have a 6500w standalone generator in the garage, you install this, and then when you have an outage, wheel your generator out, power it up, plug it into the outlet that feeds this and flip some switches. Voila, power.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-10-Circuit-30-Amp-Manual-Transfer-Switch-Kit-310CRK/205793178

[JLee]

I am personally very excited by the thought of being able to power my house during outages (definitely a relevant topic right now) with bi-directional charging from an electric car. Helps justify a bigger battery in a car if it can have a dual purpose.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/wallbox-quasar-bi-directional-ev-charger-america/

This is cool and could easily be done.  The power company will have some concerns about safety (like they do with personal generators).  If they have a power outage and shut down the normal power source so a utility worker can repair the line safely they aren't going to want you plugging your car in and putting voltage on the transmission lines.  The fix is to interlock your home being disconnected from the power lines before you use your car to power your home.

I keep meaning to add something like this to my panel.  I have a 6500w standalone generator in the garage, you install this, and then when you have an outage, wheel your generator out, power it up, plug it into the outlet that feeds this and flip some switches. Voila, power.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-10-Circuit-30-Amp-Manual-Transfer-Switch-Kit-310CRK/205793178

Yep, easily done but not free - I have a standby generator with an automatic switch. Fortunately it came with the house :D

[Chris22]

I am personally very excited by the thought of being able to power my house during outages (definitely a relevant topic right now) with bi-directional charging from an electric car. Helps justify a bigger battery in a car if it can have a dual purpose.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/wallbox-quasar-bi-directional-ev-charger-america/

This is cool and could easily be done.  The power company will have some concerns about safety (like they do with personal generators).  If they have a power outage and shut down the normal power source so a utility worker can repair the line safely they aren't going to want you plugging your car in and putting voltage on the transmission lines.  The fix is to interlock your home being disconnected from the power lines before you use your car to power your home.

I keep meaning to add something like this to my panel.  I have a 6500w standalone generator in the garage, you install this, and then when you have an outage, wheel your generator out, power it up, plug it into the outlet that feeds this and flip some switches. Voila, power.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-10-Circuit-30-Amp-Manual-Transfer-Switch-Kit-310CRK/205793178

Yep, easily done but not free - I have a standby generator with an automatic switch. Fortunately it came with the house :D

I looked into a whole house standby generator and you’re looking at probably $10k all in. Too rich for my blood, especially given how often we lose power (almost never).  A panel at 5% (DIY) to 10% (professional install)* is much more reasonable IMO. Biggest downside is that it doesn’t work if I’m not home to set it up. Fortunately I have good neighbors who would be happy to help in return for access to a warm/cooled house.

*not including the generator I already own

[JLee]

I am personally very excited by the thought of being able to power my house during outages (definitely a relevant topic right now) with bi-directional charging from an electric car. Helps justify a bigger battery in a car if it can have a dual purpose.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/wallbox-quasar-bi-directional-ev-charger-america/

This is cool and could easily be done.  The power company will have some concerns about safety (like they do with personal generators).  If they have a power outage and shut down the normal power source so a utility worker can repair the line safely they aren't going to want you plugging your car in and putting voltage on the transmission lines.  The fix is to interlock your home being disconnected from the power lines before you use your car to power your home.

I keep meaning to add something like this to my panel.  I have a 6500w standalone generator in the garage, you install this, and then when you have an outage, wheel your generator out, power it up, plug it into the outlet that feeds this and flip some switches. Voila, power.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Reliance-Controls-10-Circuit-30-Amp-Manual-Transfer-Switch-Kit-310CRK/205793178

Yep, easily done but not free - I have a standby generator with an automatic switch. Fortunately it came with the house :D

I looked into a whole house standby generator and you’re looking at probably $10k all in. Too rich for my blood, especially given how often we lose power (almost never).  A panel at 5% (DIY) to 10% (professional install)* is much more reasonable IMO. Biggest downside is that it doesn’t work if I’m not home to set it up. Fortunately I have good neighbors who would be happy to help in return for access to a warm/cooled house.

*not including the generator I already own

Yep they are expensive. I wouldn't have put one in if it wasn't already here -- I'd be better off with batteries to tie in with solar.

[pecunia]

I could easily see that if you "backfed" from your generator into the power line that a safety incident is likely.  I'm looking out the window right now and the distribution transformer would step up my 220 volts to 13.8 kV.  Would a person be liable for killing a lineman if this happened?  The only disconnect between my house and that transformer is the meter which can be pulled.  It doesn't take a lot of current to stop a heart.

[JLee]

I could easily see that if you "backfed" from your generator into the power line that a safety incident is likely.  I'm looking out the window right now and the distribution transformer would step up my 220 volts to 13.8 kV.  Would a person be liable for killing a lineman if this happened?  The only disconnect between my house and that transformer is the meter which can be pulled.  It doesn't take a lot of current to stop a heart.

Yeah don't do that

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/stories/13-How-NOT-to-Connect-a-Portable-Generator.html

[Just Joe]

FWIW a Generac 12KW house generator consumes 2 gallons of $2-$5 per gallon propane an hour. That "old style" generator must spin at 3600 to create the right AC frequency.

A newer inverter design generator uses much less fuel per hour. They are more expensive though. A 2000W inverter generator (enough to power a room, internet and maybe a fridge) can stretch a couple of gallons for 10+ hours. 

[Chris22]

FWIW a Generac 12KW house generator consumes 2 gallons of $2-$5 per gallon propane an hour. That "old style" generator must spin at 3600 to create the right AC frequency.

A newer inverter design generator uses much less fuel per hour. They are more expensive though. A 2000W inverter generator (enough to power a room, internet and maybe a fridge) can stretch a couple of gallons for 10+ hours.

Around here no one uses propane, they tie into the nat gas line that already runs to their house for heating. And if you use a generator to keep your pipes from freezing, even running for a week (24 x 7 x 2 x $5 = $1,680) is a bargain.

[Chris22]

I could easily see that if you "backfed" from your generator into the power line that a safety incident is likely.  I'm looking out the window right now and the distribution transformer would step up my 220 volts to 13.8 kV.  Would a person be liable for killing a lineman if this happened?  The only disconnect between my house and that transformer is the meter which can be pulled.  It doesn't take a lot of current to stop a heart.

That’s why you use the box I posted. It locks you into using either the generator or the power lines, and cuts off the connection between the two thus no possible way to backfeed the lines.

[JLee]

FWIW a Generac 12KW house generator consumes 2 gallons of $2-$5 per gallon propane an hour. That "old style" generator must spin at 3600 to create the right AC frequency.

A newer inverter design generator uses much less fuel per hour. They are more expensive though. A 2000W inverter generator (enough to power a room, internet and maybe a fridge) can stretch a couple of gallons for 10+ hours.

I would venture that the vast majority of whole house generators are not running at maximum load.  With natural gas here, a 22kW is ~5.9 cubic meters per hour (2.07 therms) at half load. Natural gas is about 50 cents / therm here, so figure ~$1/hr for a 22kw generator at half load.

[Just Joe]

A couple gallons per hour is the quoted fuel consumption for a 50% load. No worries, just sharing in case this helps anyone be a more informed consumer.

[nereo]

All that I'll add to this discussion of generators is that they are a major source of house fires around us, so muchso that there are routine PSAs.

Wire them properly. Keep them outside, and at least 20' from your home or other structures (this includes a garage or woodshed!).

[Just Joe]

All that I'll add to this discussion of generators is that they are a major source of house fires around us, so muchso that there are routine PSAs.

Wire them properly. Keep them outside, and at least 20' from your home or other structures (this includes a garage or woodshed!).

Except permanent house generators which always seem to be 3ft from the foundation. Yeah, for safety and noise reasons, I'd prefer our's to be elsewhere in the backyard.

[Chris22]

All that I'll add to this discussion of generators is that they are a major source of house fires around us, so muchso that there are routine PSAs.

Wire them properly. Keep them outside, and at least 20' from your home or other structures (this includes a garage or woodshed!).

20’?  I don’t think there’s anywhere on my .1 acre lot anything can be 20’ away from a structure lol

Maybe out on the curb, but it would get stolen.

[Just Joe]

Put it next to your neighbor's house. ;)

[JLee]

All that I'll add to this discussion of generators is that they are a major source of house fires around us, so muchso that there are routine PSAs.

Wire them properly. Keep them outside, and at least 20' from your home or other structures (this includes a garage or woodshed!).

Except permanent house generators which always seem to be 3ft from the foundation. Yeah, for safety and noise reasons, I'd prefer our's to be elsewhere in the backyard.

Proximity to the house is helpful for the wiring and the gas lines.  Noise isn't that big of a deal IMO, but you could always shut it off and not have power :)

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

Premium fuel in Australia already costs $6/gallon so I wouldn't mind biofuel as an alternative particularly if it keeps ICE cars alive.

Huh??!!  ICE vehicles still make up >95% of all cars sold, and access to fuel isn’t a constraint.  Alternative combustion fuels already exist. You are trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist with a solution that does...

I'm just waiting for when the government bans conventional petrol.

[alsoknownasDean]

Premium fuel in Australia already costs $6/gallon so I wouldn't mind biofuel as an alternative particularly if it keeps ICE cars alive.

You can already get E85 at a handful of United servos. Could be fun with the modern turbo cars if they were able to run the stuff.

IMO one big challenge of EVs is the time they are charged. If one gets home at 6pm and plugs their car in, that's already the time of peak grid demand. Maybe smart chargers would be able to charge outside of peak, but at the risk of not enough charge overnight. Easier here with our 230V grid at least.

[nereo]

Premium fuel in Australia already costs $6/gallon so I wouldn't mind biofuel as an alternative particularly if it keeps ICE cars alive.

You can already get E85 at a handful of United servos. Could be fun with the modern turbo cars if they were able to run the stuff.

IMO one big challenge of EVs is the time they are charged. If one gets home at 6pm and plugs their car in, that's already the time of peak grid demand. Maybe smart chargers would be able to charge outside of peak, but at the risk of not enough charge overnight. Easier here with our 230V grid at least.

Pretty much all EVs allow you to schedule charging.  I can plug mine in but program it to only charge from 9pm thru 7am, which avoids peak charging and still gives me an additional 40 miles of battery range.

It is a shame that in the US we went with 110v for residential plugs instead of the 230/208/240 available elsewhere.

[JLee]

Premium fuel in Australia already costs $6/gallon so I wouldn't mind biofuel as an alternative particularly if it keeps ICE cars alive.

You can already get E85 at a handful of United servos. Could be fun with the modern turbo cars if they were able to run the stuff.

IMO one big challenge of EVs is the time they are charged. If one gets home at 6pm and plugs their car in, that's already the time of peak grid demand. Maybe smart chargers would be able to charge outside of peak, but at the risk of not enough charge overnight. Easier here with our 230V grid at least.

My MR2 made 335whp on 93 and 460whp on E85. It's fun stuff.

[pecunia]

Premium fuel in Australia already costs $6/gallon so I wouldn't mind biofuel as an alternative particularly if it keeps ICE cars alive.

You can already get E85 at a handful of United servos. Could be fun with the modern turbo cars if they were able to run the stuff.

IMO one big challenge of EVs is the time they are charged. If one gets home at 6pm and plugs their car in, that's already the time of peak grid demand. Maybe smart chargers would be able to charge outside of peak, but at the risk of not enough charge overnight. Easier here with our 230V grid at least.

Pretty much all EVs allow you to schedule charging.  I can plug mine in but program it to only charge from 9pm thru 7am, which avoids peak charging and still gives me an additional 40 miles of battery range.

It is a shame that in the US we went with 110v for residential plugs instead of the 230/208/240 available elsewhere.

Don't forget that Europeans are 50 cycles too.  So is Australia.

[pecunia]

Not sure this has any real significance, but Toyota has released news of a new fuel cell module.  It uses hydrogen.

https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Toyotas-New-Fuel-Cell-Module-Could-Be-A-Gamechanger-For-Hydrogen.html

Hydrogen seems difficult to store in a vehicle, but I keep reading of people having innovative ways to do it.  Would it have a greater energy density than batteries?  Seems like if you could fuel an electric car with hydrogen that the car weight may be much lighter.  I know you guys have discussed this previously.

I think we will see some remarkable technologies in the next few years.

[Just Joe]

Premium fuel in Australia already costs $6/gallon so I wouldn't mind biofuel as an alternative particularly if it keeps ICE cars alive.

You can already get E85 at a handful of United servos. Could be fun with the modern turbo cars if they were able to run the stuff.

IMO one big challenge of EVs is the time they are charged. If one gets home at 6pm and plugs their car in, that's already the time of peak grid demand. Maybe smart chargers would be able to charge outside of peak, but at the risk of not enough charge overnight. Easier here with our 230V grid at least.

Pretty much all EVs allow you to schedule charging.  I can plug mine in but program it to only charge from 9pm thru 7am, which avoids peak charging and still gives me an additional 40 miles of battery range.

It is a shame that in the US we went with 110v for residential plugs instead of the 230/208/240 available elsewhere.

Don't forget that Europeans are 50 cycles too.  So is Australia.

https://www.amazon.com/stores/JuiceBox/page/0849F8AB-379A-4919-B7EC-139C378DF84C

Another approach is a smarter charger rather than relying on the car's charging utility.

[Just Joe]

I'd like to put a Nissan Leaf battery at my house for backup power.

Can't justify the cost though. 62 KWH would last us for a couple of days if we were careful.

Much cheaper to recharge than to buy propane to power a generator.

[RWD]

I'd like to put a Nissan Leaf battery at my house for backup power.

Can't justify the cost though. 62 KWH would last us for a couple of days if we were careful.

Much cheaper to recharge than to buy propane to power a generator.

I was doing some calculations a week or so ago and found that buying a Leaf plus a compatible bi-directional charger (Wallbox Quasar is supposed to be $4k, assuming they have started selling them) was comparable in price to a Tesla Powerwall per kilowatt-hour (with the added bonus that you can drive it). On the cheaper end I believe the Kia Soul EV (previous gen, not current model year) was also compatible (CHAdeMO) and those can be found for around $10k, give or take and comes out noticeably cheaper per kilowatt-hour, though the total capacity is about half of the current Leaf.

[ericrugiero]

I'd like to put a Nissan Leaf battery at my house for backup power.

Can't justify the cost though. 62 KWH would last us for a couple of days if we were careful.

Much cheaper to recharge than to buy propane to power a generator.

I was doing some calculations a week or so ago and found that buying a Leaf plus a compatible bi-directional charger (Wallbox Quasar is supposed to be $4k, assuming they have started selling them) was comparable in price to a Tesla Powerwall per kilowatt-hour (with the added bonus that you can drive it). On the cheaper end I believe the Kia Soul EV (previous gen, not current model year) was also compatible (CHAdeMO) and those can be found for around $10k, give or take and comes out noticeably cheaper per kilowatt-hour, though the total capacity is about half of the current Leaf.

Another very significant bonus of the leaf is that you can drive it somewhere to charge it.  Let's say my power is out for a week.  A Tesla Powerwall is going to run out of juice with no way to re-charge until the power comes back on.  If I'm using a Leaf to power the house, I just need to drive it to a friend's house and plug it in to recharge.  That should give me another couple days of power to my home. 

[Luke Warm]

I'd like to put a Nissan Leaf battery at my house for backup power.

Can't justify the cost though. 62 KWH would last us for a couple of days if we were careful.

Much cheaper to recharge than to buy propane to power a generator.

saw this the other day. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/climate-solutions-electric-batteries/?itid=hp_national-0109

[Just Joe]

I was thinking of a battery out of a car but a battery in an EV is good too - had not thought of running across town to a commercial charger to recharge. Even better might be solar, a repurposed EV battery AND an EV but our power is reliable enough I can't justify the full monty. ;)

[MasterStache]

Sigh. I miss my Leaf already. Don't get me wrong my van has made carrying loads of supplies to job sites so much easier. However, 2 trips to the repair shop and 3 gas fill ups in about a month's time have my pining for my Leaf.

[Just Joe]

I'm considering a Leaf and then putting a trailer hitch on it for a little 5x8 ft trailer. That'll carry most everything I need to carry home from the hardware store. Total load would be less than five adults inside the car.

A Plus has a ~200 mile range. Even if it cut my range by 50% - and it won't - I only need 30 miles to get to the hardware store and back.

[dcheesi]

I'd like to put a Nissan Leaf battery at my house for backup power.

Can't justify the cost though. 62 KWH would last us for a couple of days if we were careful.

Much cheaper to recharge than to buy propane to power a generator.

saw this the other day. https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/interactive/2021/climate-solutions-electric-batteries/?itid=hp_national-0109

Interesting. Also, that's the same community featured in the movie Nomadland.

[lemonlyman]

 F-150 Lightning is a slam dunk for Ford. I’m impressed with the price to features, and I think they’ll sell a lot of them.

[nereo]

F-150 Lightning is a slam dunk for Ford. I’m impressed with the price to features, and I think they’ll sell a lot of them.

I have mixed feelings with the Lightning.  On one hand it’s impressive on all fronts and I anticipate it’l sell like hot cakes.  Hopefully it will tamp out this persistent narrative about BEVs not being a better alternative to ICE vehicles.  OTOH I’m pretty certain it will lock us into a nation of large pickups for another few decades.

[jinga nation]

This is going to be great. Ford firing the first shot. GM, Chrysler (whatever they're called now), Toyota, Nissan will respond. Competition is great.
An electric small truck (like a Ford e-Ranger) would be my pick. It will happen, just needs time.