Electric Cars: Can they finally become popular in the United States?

[NorCal]

Well, I had previously decided that I would only buy EV’s going forward, but I wasn’t in any rush as my current cars have plenty of life left on them.

My tentative plan was to eventually buy one small and cheap EV for around town trips, and a more expensive (probably face-punch worthy) EV capable of road trips. Our family can mostly get by with one car, but we’ve found enough exceptions that we’re not quite ready to go to single vehicle.

Here’s my assumptions, and please tell me if I’m missing anything:
1. I will be above the inflation reduction act income limits, so I expect no tax credits in the future.
2.  I can still get the old tax credit for manufacturers that still qualify if I make the purchase by the end of the year.

Did I get that right?

Pretty much the only inventory available near me is the Nissan Leaf. I might pull the trigger on that now if it’s a $7,500 difference in incentives.

If you buy before the end of the year all the old rules apply except for that final assembly must be in North America. To the best of my knowledge this includes the Nissan LEAF, Ford Mustang Mach-E, Ford F-150 Lightning, and the Chattanooga-built Volkswagen ID.4.

Starting in 2023 the the sales limit caps will be lifted, restoring eligibility of Chevy, Tesla, and Toyota (assuming they meet the rest of the rules). At the same time restrictions will be added for income caps, MSRP caps, and possibly battery-sourcing requirements.

Thanks for confirming. Guess I’m test driving a Leaf soon.

[AccidentialMustache]

I would check that real careful like. My understanding was the income limits landed immediately on the president signing the bill. I could certainly be wrong. I hadn't tracked it that close as I wasn't supposed to be in the market anymore.

[RWD]

I would check that real careful like. My understanding was the income limits landed immediately on the president signing the bill. I could certainly be wrong. I hadn't tracked it that close as I wasn't supposed to be in the market anymore.

I agree that it is important to confirm. This is only my interpretation from reading multiple articles and the text itself.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22122279-inflation-reduction-act-of-2022

By the way, the income limits are $150k for single, $225k for head of household, and $300k for joint filers.
https://electrek.co/2022/08/21/which-electric-vehicles-still-qualify-for-us-federal-tax-credit/

[Heywood57]

China's EV Battery Waste Problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-38O6jSyiQ

[dandarc]

So at the airport today to pick up my wife and not one of the 5 EV chargers was available. I like to take some of the free electricity home with me in my Leaf when I'm there so I was somewhat disappointed.

Level 2 spot #1 - The Ford hatchback EV plugged in
Level 2 spot #2 - A Nissan Leaf that was there when I dropped my wife off last week - I only hope it wasn't parked there this whole time because there's dick moves and then there's taking up one of the relatively few free charging spots in the city for a week or longer.

Tesla spot #1 - a Tesla (shocking I know)
Tesla spot #2 - F150 lightning "crazy expensive edition" which apparently has an adapter to use the Tesla plug
Tesla spot #3 - another Tesla

So I guess one small data point in "has caught on to where you might not be able to put your car on a charger at the airport in Tallahassee". First time ever for me where neither of the level 2 chargers was available.

[AlanStache]

What is the expected etiquette at the airport when you drive yourself with an EV and will be gone more than a day?  Just park with all the ice cars and plain ahead so the drainage while you are gone still leaves enough to get home?  Guess it would be nice to have trickle chargers at a large number of spots. 

[dandarc]

What is the expected etiquette at the airport when you drive yourself with an EV and will be gone more than a day?  Just park with all the ice cars and plain ahead so the drainage while you are gone still leaves enough to get home?  Guess it would be nice to have trickle chargers at a large number of spots.

Honestly? Leave your car at home and get there some other way. Or get there early enough to charge it and move it to other spots and/ or do the same at the other end of the trip.

I personally only charge at airport when I'm dropping off / picking up so won't be there a long time, but it is a leaf so only one airport we can get to anyway and would have to be a very short trip before parking is cost competitive with a Lyft on either end. Suppose if I care about environment enough, parking the leaf in the long term lot should be just fine for us despite the higher cost.

But rare for us to fly from Tallahassee if we are both travelling together because the airfare is so damn expensive. So ymmv on this

[Tyson]

So at the airport today to pick up my wife and not one of the 5 EV chargers was available. I like to take some of the free electricity home with me in my Leaf when I'm there so I was somewhat disappointed.

Taking up an EV spot at a high volume area like an airport when you're not actually low on charge is a jerk move.

[JLee]

What is the expected etiquette at the airport when you drive yourself with an EV and will be gone more than a day?  Just park with all the ice cars and plain ahead so the drainage while you are gone still leaves enough to get home?  Guess it would be nice to have trickle chargers at a large number of spots.

The Bolt and Lightning have basically no drain.  Rivian is pretty bad, Tesla is not bad at all if Sentry mode is disabled.

[dandarc]

So at the airport today to pick up my wife and not one of the 5 EV chargers was available. I like to take some of the free electricity home with me in my Leaf when I'm there so I was somewhat disappointed.

Taking up an EV spot at a high volume area like an airport when you're not actually low on charge is a jerk move.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but I usually leave within 30 minutes when I do this because I can get out of the lot for free. I would never leave our car on a public charger for more than a couple hours under any circumstances. Today at the airport was different - wife's bag actually arrived on an earlier flight and took an over 30 extra minutes to find it (should have been at most 5 in hindsight - that the bag might have beaten my wife's plane to the airport didn't occur to anyone involved). All 5 cars I saw today were still on the chargers when we left and at least 1 wasn't even plugged in - the Leaf I saw when dropped wife off last week.

If that car really was parked there for the whole week, could be the valet doing this now that I think about it - I cannot imagine someone who owns and EV would do that, but a valet at a fairly low traffic regional airport? Could be, and anyone paying for valet parking would certainly want the car charged while gone.

[dandarc]

What is the expected etiquette at the airport when you drive yourself with an EV and will be gone more than a day?  Just park with all the ice cars and plain ahead so the drainage while you are gone still leaves enough to get home?  Guess it would be nice to have trickle chargers at a large number of spots.

The Bolt and Lightning have basically no drain.  Rivian is pretty bad, Tesla is not bad at all if Sentry mode is disabled.

Our leaf was parked at home for 3 weeks straight (unexpected trip extension due to Covid) and had plenty of charge to get wherever I might have needed to when we got home. Didn't charge it to full or notate where it was at before leaving so no idea on how much drain, if any, there might have been, but good to know for future reference.

ETA: They actually have that "bank of trickle chargers" suggested at my office. Not actual chargers, but there's one DC fast charger and then a row of spots under some solar panels with 120v outlets. Never seem to be full at all - might start plugging in there when I get there with the Leaf. Would probably want to get a 2nd level-1 charger for this purpose - that's what we use at home and have it set up semi-permanently to be convenient there.

[Tyson]

So at the airport today to pick up my wife and not one of the 5 EV chargers was available. I like to take some of the free electricity home with me in my Leaf when I'm there so I was somewhat disappointed.

Taking up an EV spot at a high volume area like an airport when you're not actually low on charge is a jerk move.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but I usually leave within 30 minutes when I do this because I can get out of the lot for free. I would never leave our car on a public charger for more than a couple hours under any circumstances. Today at the airport was different - wife's bag actually arrived on an earlier flight and took an over 30 extra minutes to find it (should have been at most 5 in hindsight - that the bag might have beaten my wife's plane to the airport didn't occur to anyone involved). All 5 cars I saw today were still on the chargers when we left and at least 1 wasn't even plugged in - the Leaf I saw when dropped wife off last week.

If that car really was parked there for the whole week, could be the valet doing this now that I think about it - I cannot imagine someone who owns and EV would do that, but a valet at a fairly low traffic regional airport? Could be, and anyone paying for valet parking would certainly want the car charged while gone.

I meant whoever had potentially left their car there for a week. But I can't imagine it not getting towed if someone tried that.

[PathtoFIRE]

I think the etiquette depends on the type of lot/garage. At Dallas Love, there were a small number of charging spots in each of the 3 garages. B and C garages were only long-term parking, so I had no problem parking my car in one of those spots and leaving it. Garage A doubles as close long-term plus short-term/pickup. Never used this garage with an EV, and the charging spots were somewhat close to but definitely separate from the short-term spots. So tough call, I wouldn't begrudge someone using them long-term, since they are surrounded by non-charging long-term parking.

I agree that, at least at airports, what's needed really are just outlets in numerous spots. No long term parker needs anything more than trickle charge. This will just take time to become a norm among communities and planners, though it might be easy to retrofit in garages with the lighting system already in place.

[neo von retorch]

Growing up in a Chevy family and thinking "Ford Stinks", it's funny how I'm kind of a fan lately. The Mach-e, the Maverick and the F-150 Lightning are all good moves (in my opinion.) (As an aside, I think GM is making weird moves. The Bolt is one of the best EV values now, but it's far from a mainstream option with the current design, and the Silverado looks like it was inspired by the Cybertruck "but with curves" -- in a very bad way.)

This is an interesting, in-depth article evaluating Ford's decision to build the Lightning on their existing truck platform, and why they think it was the right call to make.

https://www.theautopian.com/the-2022-ford-lightning-is-just-a-standard-f-150-with-an-electric-powertrain-and-thats-why-its-going-to-change-the-world/

[Just Joe]

Growing up in a Chevy family and thinking "Ford Stinks", it's funny how I'm kind of a fan lately. The Mach-e, the Maverick and the F-150 Lightning are all good moves (in my opinion.) (As an aside, I think GM is making weird moves. The Bolt is one of the best EV values now, but it's far from a mainstream option with the current design, and the Silverado looks like it was inspired by the Cybertruck "but with curves" -- in a very bad way.)

This is an interesting, in-depth article evaluating Ford's decision to build the Lightning on their existing truck platform, and why they think it was the right call to make.

https://www.theautopian.com/the-2022-ford-lightning-is-just-a-standard-f-150-with-an-electric-powertrain-and-thats-why-its-going-to-change-the-world/

I think it is a good move. Not everyone wants to be seen driving a spaceship. A little badge somewhere that notes its EV status might be enough.

[RWD]

As an aside, I think GM is making weird moves.

The Blazer EV and Equinox EV that are supposed to come out next year should be pretty compelling. Equinox is targeting $30k before incentives, I believe.

[Paper Chaser]

Ford has taken the approach of using different battery suppliers and unique electrical architectures to bring EVs to market quickly. Using existing architecture in the Lightning helps with time to market and helps keep costs reasonable. It's also pretty elementary to slap a battery between the framerails of a Body On Frame vehicle. This means they get to market quicker and potentially cheaper allowing them to build some positive branding and customer loyalty. But it's probably not the most efficient/profitable approach to building EVs at scale. I'm not sure the Mach E and Lightning share any major components actually which probably makes some accountants pretty displeased.

GM seems to be willing to concede the EV market temporarily while they develop their Ultium battery and motor systems which will be an easily shared basis for dozens of different vehicles. It seems like a very well thought out long term plan to me. I'm not sure that Ford has anything similar in the works. The Hummer and Cadillac Lyriq are the first vehicles utilizing the new Ultium tech, so they're obviously targeting higher profit applications initially as they scale.

[Syonyk]

This is an interesting, in-depth article evaluating Ford's decision to build the Lightning on their existing truck platform, and why they think it was the right call to make.

Indeed, I'd not seen that before - Ford has made some very, very reasonable decisions and I think they'll sell as many of the things as they can possibly produce.

But it's probably not the most efficient/profitable approach to building EVs at scale. I'm not sure the Mach E and Lightning share any major components actually which probably makes some accountants pretty displeased.

The problem Ford seems to have solved, quite effectively, is "Getting a competent electric truck to market, that's actually usable as a truck."  The various other forms of hype have all suffered from the problem of being "somewhere between mostly and entirely useless as a truck."  Or not existing in the first place.

What they do long term is separate from being first to market with a capable and well done truck that happens to be electric.  Everything I've seen about it says, "This is a very, very well done electric truck, usable as a truck."  And they're selling everything they can make.

Value of my old diesel keeps creeping up... just hasn't quite hit the price of a F150 Lightning yet. :(

[Paper Chaser]

To be clear, I think the Lightning is super compelling and it makes me want to ditch both my PHEV daily driver and my old truck to consolidate my needs into a single vehicle (I won't because I'm not willing to shell out $65k for a vehicle). The part that appeals to me the most is that it's an F150 that happens to be electric, rather than an all new EV truck.

But I also appreciate GM's approach which seems to be pretty thorough and well planned with modular batteries, a handful of motors that can be mix/matched, and wireless battery management. It seems like they're actually planning to make a whole bunch of EVs using this stuff in an organized manner where they can share lots of components among different vehicles. They still have to stick the execution and quality but I'm impressed by the forethought they've invested.

[LennStar]

A well thought-out car (strategy) didn't end up that well with VW. They made the error of starting late because they didn't want to take the first adopter costs.
I don't think a car that will be build a few years in the future will have a lot of it.

Meanwhile, BYD has sold more cars than Tesla (albeit half are plug-ins) and is just starting to come to Europe. They also build buses, so they should know how to make big cars. I wonder what will happen once they go into the US market?

[Syonyk]

To be clear, I think the Lightning is super compelling and it makes me want to ditch both my PHEV daily driver and my old truck to consolidate my needs into a single vehicle (I won't because I'm not willing to shell out $65k for a vehicle). The part that appeals to me the most is that it's an F150 that happens to be electric, rather than an all new EV truck.

You and me both... I could probably get $30k+ out of my existing truck (super low miles F350 CCLB with the 7.3), but I need the 10k towing capability and that puts me into the $90k range and extended pack, which... no.  Sorry.  Just no.  But waaaaant!

But I also appreciate GM's approach which seems to be pretty thorough and well planned with modular batteries, a handful of motors that can be mix/matched, and wireless battery management. It seems like they're actually planning to make a whole bunch of EVs using this stuff in an organized manner where they can share lots of components among different vehicles. They still have to stick the execution and quality but I'm impressed by the forethought they've invested.

I don't think Ford's approach would prohibit that in the future.  But I do think kicking ass and taking names with the F150 Lightning, which they're clearly doing, sets them up very well for the future in terms of "We make the best trucks.  Oh, yeah, and they're electric."

[neo von retorch]

As an aside, I think GM is making weird moves.

The Blazer EV and Equinox EV that are supposed to come out next year should be pretty compelling. Equinox is targeting $30k before incentives, I believe.

I agree with you - mid-range, well-priced SUVs are almost certainly the bread and butter of EVs in the US (beside trucks!)

Cadillac Lyriq is even with reason for price for the class it wants to play in.

It's just been, design-wise, a weird path, with the Bolt, Hummer, and Silverado (not to mention the weight class of the Hummer...)

I'm also not sold on Equinox EV design - Blazer EV design is... bold, some weird things, but I think overall a good look. Equinox feels derivative, but then again that's what sells in today's SUV market...

[soulpatchmike]

Ford Dealers Must set no haggle price and invest 1.2M to keep selling EVs

Basically, Ford will be forcing EV-tier dealers to sell vehicles at non-negotiable national prices.  Lower-tier dealers will not be allowed to keep some upgraded EVs in their inventory and they will have limits on the number of EVs they can sell.  Additionally, these higher-tiered dealers will be required to invest 900k into fast charger infrastructure with an additional 300k investment required by 2026.

Is this going to be a catalyst to putting some cracks in the dealership association's armor on the auto market?  This revolution is happening faster than most understand.

[JLee]

To be clear, I think the Lightning is super compelling and it makes me want to ditch both my PHEV daily driver and my old truck to consolidate my needs into a single vehicle (I won't because I'm not willing to shell out $65k for a vehicle). The part that appeals to me the most is that it's an F150 that happens to be electric, rather than an all new EV truck.

You and me both... I could probably get $30k+ out of my existing truck (super low miles F350 CCLB with the 7.3), but I need the 10k towing capability and that puts me into the $90k range and extended pack, which... no.  Sorry.  Just no.  But waaaaant!

But I also appreciate GM's approach which seems to be pretty thorough and well planned with modular batteries, a handful of motors that can be mix/matched, and wireless battery management. It seems like they're actually planning to make a whole bunch of EVs using this stuff in an organized manner where they can share lots of components among different vehicles. They still have to stick the execution and quality but I'm impressed by the forethought they've invested.

I don't think Ford's approach would prohibit that in the future.  But I do think kicking ass and taking names with the F150 Lightning, which they're clearly doing, sets them up very well for the future in terms of "We make the best trucks.  Oh, yeah, and they're electric."

Any ER Lightning with the tow package can tow 10k -- you don't need the Platinum.  A Lariat ER with basically everything is around $81k before the federal tax credit, and an XLT is a few grand cheaper than that.

If you're towing more than 100 miles at a time though, I would keep the superduty.

[Syonyk]

Any ER Lightning with the tow package can tow 10k -- you don't need the Platinum.  A Lariat ER with basically everything is around $81k before the federal tax credit, and an XLT is a few grand cheaper than that.

Right, but that's "list price," and until that whole "No Haggle Price" thing shows up, I fully expect $10k-$50k in "Because we got one and you want it!" fees tacked on.  Yet another reason I probably won't ever own one.

If you're towing more than 100 miles at a time though, I would keep the superduty.

Yeah, that's about where I am.  I mostly do shorter stuff, but if we're taking the car trailer somewhere with the old car in it, that's just not easy, especially over mountain passes.  I'm not sure those trips would be actually feasible with the EV.  What I want, which means it will never exist, is a decent PHEV SuperDuty class truck.  A 100 mile battery pack and a decent little turbodiesel for longer trips.

[JLee]

Any ER Lightning with the tow package can tow 10k -- you don't need the Platinum.  A Lariat ER with basically everything is around $81k before the federal tax credit, and an XLT is a few grand cheaper than that.

Right, but that's "list price," and until that whole "No Haggle Price" thing shows up, I fully expect $10k-$50k in "Because we got one and you want it!" fees tacked on.  Yet another reason I probably won't ever own one.

If you're towing more than 100 miles at a time though, I would keep the superduty.

Yeah, that's about where I am.  I mostly do shorter stuff, but if we're taking the car trailer somewhere with the old car in it, that's just not easy, especially over mountain passes.  I'm not sure those trips would be actually feasible with the EV.  What I want, which means it will never exist, is a decent PHEV SuperDuty class truck.  A 100 mile battery pack and a decent little turbodiesel for longer trips.

Oh. Yeah, if you don't have an order already you're not getting one anywhere near MSRP unless you have lottery-winner luck.  I have heard tale of a couple people getting a surprise from one of their local dealers who had an order holder back out/etc and they sold at MSRP, but it's vanishingly rare.

A PHEV superduty would be amazing, but also check out the F150 hybrid -- EPA 24/24mpg (real world seems to show lower though) and available 7.2 kW Pro Power onboard, available tow capacity up to 12,700 lbs.

[Syonyk]

A PHEV superduty would be amazing, but also check out the F150 hybrid -- EPA 24/24mpg (real world seems to show lower though) and available 7.2 kW Pro Power onboard, available tow capacity up to 12,700 lbs.

I just don't move enough miles to justify a $100k class vehicle.  Even if my existing truck is appreciating.

I also don't really want anything with cell modems in it.  I accept that the next vehicle I purchase will involve some rapid post-purchase surgery to remove the cell antenna, because I don't think anyone is going to sell anything without that sweet, sweet behavioral surplus stream allowing for post-sale profits.

[JLee]

A PHEV superduty would be amazing, but also check out the F150 hybrid -- EPA 24/24mpg (real world seems to show lower though) and available 7.2 kW Pro Power onboard, available tow capacity up to 12,700 lbs.

I just don't move enough miles to justify a $100k class vehicle.  Even if my existing truck is appreciating.

I also don't really want anything with cell modems in it.  I accept that the next vehicle I purchase will involve some rapid post-purchase surgery to remove the cell antenna, because I don't think anyone is going to sell anything without that sweet, sweet behavioral surplus stream allowing for post-sale profits.

A 2022 F150 XL crew cab 5.5' bed 2wd hybrid with the towing package is $47,200 including destination/acquisition fees.  I get it, you don't want to buy a new truck and that's fine - but calling it a "$100k class vehicle" is ridiculous.

[joemandadman189]

i was just going to to say an XLT crew cab 4x4 with the hybrid and some goodies is about $60k last time i played with the vehicle builder

a F-150 lightning EV with the extended range battery will be $80k plus easy

[Syonyk]

A 2022 F150 XL crew cab 5.5' bed 2wd hybrid with the towing package is $47,200 including destination/acquisition fees.  I get it, you don't want to buy a new truck and that's fine - but calling it a "$100k class vehicle" is ridiculous.

Eh, OK.  A 2WD truck is pointless for most uses, but... fair.  I thought the hybrid and power inverter added a lot more.

Mostly, I just round house costs down to the nearest $100k, round vehicles to the nearest $50k, and try to avoid spending "rounded costs on vehicle" that equal "rounded costs on house."  I've fucked up buying a new car once, would rather not do that again.  Though I will need another vehicle at some point when the kids start driving.

[BDWW]

Just out of curiosity I priced out a replacement for my current truck.

2014 XLT SuperCab 3.5L EB 8ft 4x4, max trailer, max payload.  I paid $33K for it new off the lot.

2022 Equivalent $56K.  That's a 7% rate of inflation.

I bike most days and only use the truck when needed, so it only has 58,000 miles on it. Seeing how prices are going, hopefully it lasts another 15+ years.

[JLee]

A 2022 F150 XL crew cab 5.5' bed 2wd hybrid with the towing package is $47,200 including destination/acquisition fees.  I get it, you don't want to buy a new truck and that's fine - but calling it a "$100k class vehicle" is ridiculous.

Eh, OK.  A 2WD truck is pointless for most uses, but... fair.  I thought the hybrid and power inverter added a lot more.

Mostly, I just round house costs down to the nearest $100k, round vehicles to the nearest $50k, and try to avoid spending "rounded costs on vehicle" that equal "rounded costs on house."  I've fucked up buying a new car once, would rather not do that again.  Though I will need another vehicle at some point when the kids start driving.

The vast majority of pickups drive around in 2wd almost all of the time. I agree that I wouldn't buy a RWD truck but they serve tons of people well.  Anyway, 2.4 kW Pro Power is included by default. Bumping up to 7.2 kW and adding 4x4 puts it at $52,130. Granted, that's a very not-fancy truck, though the extra Pro Power capacity requires the "XL High" pack which adds cruise control, so at least there's that!

Just out of curiosity I priced out a replacement for my current truck.

2014 XLT SuperCab 3.5L EB 8ft 4x4, max trailer, max payload.  I paid $33K for it new off the lot.

2022 Equivalent $56K.  That's a 7% rate of inflation.

I bike most days and only use the truck when needed, so it only has 58,000 miles on it. Seeing how prices are going, hopefully it lasts another 15+ years.

Yep, prices are nuts (new and used).

[nereo]

The counterpoint to most trucks operating in 2wd almost all of the time is that most people who own pickups don’t actually use them as anything other than an oversized passenger car.  Sure, there are plenty of work trucks that only drive on surface streets, but I’d wager there are even more that have not a scratch in the bed and have never had a trailer ball installed on the hitch.

[JLee]

The counterpoint to most trucks operating in 2wd almost all of the time is that most people who own pickups don’t actually use them as anything other than an oversized passenger car.  Sure, there are plenty of work trucks that only drive on surface streets, but I’d wager there are even more that have not a scratch in the bed and have never had a trailer ball installed on the hitch.

I absolutely agree - hence 2wd not being pointless for most use cases (in reality).

[AccidentialMustache]

Oh. Yeah, if you don't have an order already you're not getting one anywhere near MSRP unless you have lottery-winner luck.  I have heard tale of a couple people getting a surprise from one of their local dealers who had an order holder back out/etc and they sold at MSRP, but it's vanishingly rare.

You'll find plenty of folks who picked up the MME for MSRP from a dealer within the last 12 months -- myself included, and yes it was a refused customer order. I don't know if that was "shenanigans" to get one to sell, or if that was legit and the customer (an employee) backed out for the GT, or if it was legit and the customer refused the low quality assembly. (slightly cockeyed rear hatch, kinda large panel gaps between the windshield, top glass, and top plastic runners. Nothing leaks but it looks poorly made.)

I didn't even do one of the "fly two states over and drive home" -- just 50 miles on the interstate to the next non-podunk-town. We were there for a test drive but didn't expect to be able to buy the demo unit (there were weird rules about miles and age before dealers could sell the car) and they were like, "so do you want to buy it?"

I'm sure it'll repeat for the F150.

[AccidentialMustache]

I also don't really want anything with cell modems in it.  I accept that the next vehicle I purchase will involve some rapid post-purchase surgery to remove the cell antenna, because I don't think anyone is going to sell anything without that sweet, sweet behavioral surplus stream allowing for post-sale profits.

If anyone was going to sell cars not doing data collection, it'd be one of the startups who is barely holding it together and simply doesn't have time to plan that out (also, with so few sales, there minuscule data isn't worth anything, so there's no point in trying to collect it).

So do you want to drive the jetsons car that can't actually fly (Aptera), or the rolling suppository (Canoo)? I'm sure there'll be others, but those two are the, ahem, "stand-out" models.

Other than being a 2-seater and unusably wide, the Aptera actually has a lot going for it, in that it solves most of the "well you should be more efficient with your battery material via PHEVs because demand outstrips supply" issues by simply being so stupidly efficient that even a small battery (25 kwh) is expected to have great range (250 mi).

[LennStar]

Additionally, these higher-tiered dealers will be required to invest 900k into fast charger infrastructure with an additional 300k investment required by 2026.

Wow, that's a LOT of money. How many cars do they have to sell just to get that money back in?

btw. You all: Facepunches to you! The only electric vehicle you need is the electric version of this SUV:
https://twitter.com/Naparstek/status/1570161437812613121

[Paper Chaser]

Just out of curiosity I priced out a replacement for my current truck.

2014 XLT SuperCab 3.5L EB 8ft 4x4, max trailer, max payload.  I paid $33K for it new off the lot.

2022 Equivalent $56K.  That's a 7% rate of inflation.

I bike most days and only use the truck when needed, so it only has 58,000 miles on it. Seeing how prices are going, hopefully it lasts another 15+ years.

I'm guessing that you paid less than MSRP for the 2014 though? It wasn't uncommon not too long ago to see $10k worth of discounts for new trucks. That just comes down to a dealer's pricing model and supply/demand. I'm guessing if we compared the window stickers of each truck they'd be at least a little bit closer.

[Just Joe]

I also don't really want anything with cell modems in it.  I accept that the next vehicle I purchase will involve some rapid post-purchase surgery to remove the cell antenna, because I don't think anyone is going to sell anything without that sweet, sweet behavioral surplus stream allowing for post-sale profits.

Agreed.

[JLee]

I also don't really want anything with cell modems in it.  I accept that the next vehicle I purchase will involve some rapid post-purchase surgery to remove the cell antenna, because I don't think anyone is going to sell anything without that sweet, sweet behavioral surplus stream allowing for post-sale profits.

Agreed.

Do you also not have cell phones?

[StashingAway]

I also don't really want anything with cell modems in it.  I accept that the next vehicle I purchase will involve some rapid post-purchase surgery to remove the cell antenna, because I don't think anyone is going to sell anything without that sweet, sweet behavioral surplus stream allowing for post-sale profits.

Agreed.

Do you also not have cell phones?

I think the point is that the cell phone is already too much and can be presumably left at home should the desire arise. Can't exactly leave a car at home if you're using the car to travel.

The die hards also have more flexibility with limiting their ability to be tracked with a cell phone- not something as easily done with vehicle software.

[GuitarStv]

I don't have a cell phone.  Or a car with internal cell antenna.

[Syonyk]

Do you also not have cell phones?

(1) They're optional to bring with, and I frequently leave mine at home, or shut it off and toss it in a bag.
(2) I have somewhat greater confidence in what's leaving my phone, based on permissions I've granted or denied the few apps on it.  I also generally don't leave accurate location services enabled unless I really need them.

[soulpatchmike]

I don't have a cell phone.  Or a car with internal cell antenna.

96% of 18-29year olds have a cell phone.  As the age gets greater, the percentage drops to 61% of those 65 and older.  Over all ages it is near 90%.

Once upon a time, only luxury cars once had electric windows and locks and now a very small minority of people still purchase vehicles without electric windows and locks.  Lower tech vehicles(including ICE) won't go away, but they will increasingly be in a shrinking minority of the population.  In the same way smart phones took over the cell phone world, the electric car is taking over the automotive world.  It is because people are realizing they want it, whether because of word of mouth or because of all the negative press on them, and it's happening quickly.

[Syonyk]

An electric car doesn't require that it be unfinished, with beta software, and a cell modem to report everything you do.

It's just that it's profitable to do that, so everyone is using the new drivetrain tech as an excuse to cram those anti-features in.

[JLee]

An electric car doesn't require that it be unfinished, with beta software, and a cell modem to report everything you do.

It's just that it's profitable to do that, so everyone is using the new drivetrain tech as an excuse to cram those anti-features in.

OnStar debuted in 1997, but sure - blame EVs.

[Syonyk]

OnStar debuted in 1997, but sure - blame EVs.

And was an option on high end cars, and also didn't exactly stream tons of data out in the early years.

I assure you, I had no trouble finding early 2000s vehicles with no cell connectivity.  Now it's almost impossible to find one.

[GuitarStv]

I don't have a cell phone.  Or a car with internal cell antenna.

96% of 18-29year olds have a cell phone.  As the age gets greater, the percentage drops to 61% of those 65 and older.  Over all ages it is near 90%.

I'm aware that they're popular.  They even seem useful in a few circumstances.  But they're also disposable electronic waste.  I've saved tens of thousands of dollars over my life by not having one.

Once upon a time, only luxury cars once had electric windows and locks and now a very small minority of people still purchase vehicles without electric windows and locks.  Lower tech vehicles(including ICE) won't go away, but they will increasingly be in a shrinking minority of the population.  In the same way smart phones took over the cell phone world, the electric car is taking over the automotive world.  It is because people are realizing they want it, whether because of word of mouth or because of all the negative press on them, and it's happening quickly.

Electric windows and locks are standard equipment on most cars.  It's not necessarily that people don't want them - there's no option not to have them any more.

I don't have anything against electric cars.  I don't love many 'features' being bundled with all modern cars (including electric) though.  Like cell phone tracking, the car fighting the driver for control, backup cameras, etc.

[JLee]

I don't have a cell phone.  Or a car with internal cell antenna.

96% of 18-29year olds have a cell phone.  As the age gets greater, the percentage drops to 61% of those 65 and older.  Over all ages it is near 90%.

I'm aware that they're popular.  They even seem useful in a few circumstances.  But they're also disposable electronic waste.  I've saved tens of thousands of dollars over my life by not having one.

Once upon a time, only luxury cars once had electric windows and locks and now a very small minority of people still purchase vehicles without electric windows and locks.  Lower tech vehicles(including ICE) won't go away, but they will increasingly be in a shrinking minority of the population.  In the same way smart phones took over the cell phone world, the electric car is taking over the automotive world.  It is because people are realizing they want it, whether because of word of mouth or because of all the negative press on them, and it's happening quickly.

Electric windows and locks are standard equipment on most cars.  It's not necessarily that people don't want them - there's no option not to have them any more.

I don't have anything against electric cars.  I don't love many 'features' being bundled with all modern cars (including electric) though.  Like cell phone tracking, the car fighting the driver for control, backup cameras, etc.

By "the car fighting driver for control" do you mean "the car refusing to depart the lane without signaling" or "car refusing to hit pedestrian at full speed"?

I get the objection to cell phone tracking, but basic safety features like backup cameras and automatic emergency braking exist for a reason.  IMO it's not worth thousands of lives to make technology-averse people happy.

[GuitarStv]

I don't have a cell phone.  Or a car with internal cell antenna.

96% of 18-29year olds have a cell phone.  As the age gets greater, the percentage drops to 61% of those 65 and older.  Over all ages it is near 90%.

I'm aware that they're popular.  They even seem useful in a few circumstances.  But they're also disposable electronic waste.  I've saved tens of thousands of dollars over my life by not having one.

Once upon a time, only luxury cars once had electric windows and locks and now a very small minority of people still purchase vehicles without electric windows and locks.  Lower tech vehicles(including ICE) won't go away, but they will increasingly be in a shrinking minority of the population.  In the same way smart phones took over the cell phone world, the electric car is taking over the automotive world.  It is because people are realizing they want it, whether because of word of mouth or because of all the negative press on them, and it's happening quickly.

Electric windows and locks are standard equipment on most cars.  It's not necessarily that people don't want them - there's no option not to have them any more.

I don't have anything against electric cars.  I don't love many 'features' being bundled with all modern cars (including electric) though.  Like cell phone tracking, the car fighting the driver for control, backup cameras, etc.

By "the car fighting driver for control" do you mean "the car refusing to depart the lane without signaling" or "car refusing to hit pedestrian at full speed"?

I get the objection to cell phone tracking, but basic safety features like backup cameras and automatic emergency braking exist for a reason.  IMO it's not worth thousands of lives to make technology-averse people happy.

My mother's Toyota Corolla with lane assist doesn't handle snowy conditions very well.  A couple years ago I was driving it with cruise control and lane assist on down a stretch of road where maybe a cm of snow had blown half across the lane, blocking the black tarmac.  The steering wheel abruptly 'assisted' me half into the oncoming traffic lane to deal with the changing road conditions.  I didn't appreciate needing to yank the wheel back into my lane to avoid oncoming traffic, and certainly didn't feel safer after narrowly avoiding an accident.

Backup cameras I don't have a problem with - provided that the car isn't redesigned so that they're required equipment to back up safely.  My mother's car is extremely difficult to see out the rear window when backing up.  My older Corolla does not have or need backup cameras because it's easy to see where the rear of the car is using the rear window.  Having a backup camera with the rear of the car redesigned so you can't back up any way is not a step forward.

I'm not technology averse at all.  (I'm currently typing this on an i7 PC with M.2 drives that I built a couple months ago.)  But I don't just accept that technology is better simply because it's new . . . so I'm not wiring my house with hackable devices that offer no advantage to me from internet connectivity.  I don't want my TV to report my viewing habits to it's manufacturers.  I don't want my car to be tracking my movements through cell towers.  These aren't benefits.