Author Topic: Trump Voters.... why?  (Read 326813 times)

Gin1984

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #950 on: October 17, 2016, 01:15:03 PM »
I see little to no reason why this election would be low turnout. Presidential elections always draw out voters. Some people are saying they wont vote but I suspect most are simply tired of being shamed for their pick. The election is so chaotic and polarizing turn out should be well above the norm.

Any negative news about Trumps shiftiness as a person only feeds into the narrative that the media is so biased that they are making shit up to tear him down. Sure the media is biased for Hillary, but come on Trump spoon feeds the news bad press.

The fact the people seriously doubt that a rich entitled asshole like Trump didn't diddle countless women on the side while hanging out with jerk offs like Roger Ailes is stunning. The man who has a boat load of kids by 3 different super model wives. Yeah no way he has a pension for straying and going after attractive women.

The pattern of a domino effect of people coming out accusing Trump always happens this way when the accused are well known, liked and wealthy. Happened to Cosby and it happened to Roger the same way recently. These women gain nothing but scorn, shaming and death threats by coming out. Unless you chose to believe that the Clinton campaign has paid them all off. Which should be easy to prove one way or the other.
There is a difference between going after women and sexually assaulting women.  In the first, you respect no, in the latter, you are a criminal.  Let's focus on that fact that he is an admitted criminal, not that he is likely a cheat?

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MrMoogle

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #951 on: October 17, 2016, 01:58:24 PM »
Ultimately if Trump losses we will finally see if his rhetoric was dangerous or just noise. It seems on the surface to be incredibly dangerous to, in the face of a likely loss, begin to call for revolution against a system that is stealing the election. The guys if fucking outrageous and dangerous as a major political candidate. Pence and his fellow republicans can try to down play this but Trump is a sore loser and has the ear of his followers.

People attacked Bernie for inciting for revolution against the wealthy and class warfare. But he never once appear to push for a revolt over an election outcome. If our system was 100% rigged Trump would have never made into the primary... I really hope the Repubs are able to mount a sane candidate next time and we don't get a copy cat candidate riding the wave that Trump has inspired.
If the system were rigged for the Democrats (or Hillary, or Elites in general), Trump would have been a great candidate against Hillary.  He alienates many of his party.  He alienates many humans in general.  Considering how he has behaved up to this point, if he loses, and doesn't throw a tantrum, I'd be suspect of the system.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #952 on: October 17, 2016, 05:55:49 PM »
Ultimately if Trump losses we will finally see if his rhetoric was dangerous or just noise. It seems on the surface to be incredibly dangerous to, in the face of a likely loss, begin to call for revolution against a system that is stealing the election. The guys if fucking outrageous and dangerous as a major political candidate. Pence and his fellow republicans can try to down play this but Trump is a sore loser and has the ear of his followers.

People attacked Bernie for inciting for revolution against the wealthy and class warfare. But he never once appear to push for a revolt over an election outcome. If our system was 100% rigged Trump would have never made into the primary... I really hope the Repubs are able to mount a sane candidate next time and we don't get a copy cat candidate riding the wave that Trump has inspired.
If the system were rigged for the Democrats (or Hillary, or Elites in general), Trump would have been a great candidate against Hillary.  He alienates many of his party.  He alienates many humans in general.  Considering how he has behaved up to this point, if he loses, and doesn't throw a tantrum, I'd be suspect of the system.

Of the system or Mr Trump?

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #953 on: October 17, 2016, 08:26:25 PM »
Wasn't the Brexit a single-issue ballot? We still have senators, congressman, local leaders, and referenda to consider, even if some people are unenthusiastic about their presidential nominees. I doubt that this will be a low-turnout election, as I also agree with MrMoogle that Trump is just as likely to drive his opponents to the polls as he is his supporters.
Not sure exactly how US elections work, but isn't this is a risk?
People thinking; "I don't like Trump but since Hilary is going to win anyway I will still vote Republican so there is an opposition house to block any of her policies I don't like."

Many people in the Brexit referendum assumed remain was going to win, because that's all the media said, so voted leave to send a message to those politicians.

thd7t

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #954 on: October 18, 2016, 06:04:36 AM »
Wasn't the Brexit a single-issue ballot? We still have senators, congressman, local leaders, and referenda to consider, even if some people are unenthusiastic about their presidential nominees. I doubt that this will be a low-turnout election, as I also agree with MrMoogle that Trump is just as likely to drive his opponents to the polls as he is his supporters.
Not sure exactly how US elections work, but isn't this is a risk?
People thinking; "I don't like Trump but since Hilary is going to win anyway I will still vote Republican so there is an opposition house to block any of her policies I don't like."

Many people in the Brexit referendum assumed remain was going to win, because that's all the media said, so voted leave to send a message to those politicians.
Protest votes are usually cast for third party candidates. That's a major difference from Brexit.

MrMoogle

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #955 on: October 18, 2016, 08:47:33 AM »
Ultimately if Trump losses we will finally see if his rhetoric was dangerous or just noise. It seems on the surface to be incredibly dangerous to, in the face of a likely loss, begin to call for revolution against a system that is stealing the election. The guys if fucking outrageous and dangerous as a major political candidate. Pence and his fellow republicans can try to down play this but Trump is a sore loser and has the ear of his followers.

People attacked Bernie for inciting for revolution against the wealthy and class warfare. But he never once appear to push for a revolt over an election outcome. If our system was 100% rigged Trump would have never made into the primary... I really hope the Repubs are able to mount a sane candidate next time and we don't get a copy cat candidate riding the wave that Trump has inspired.
If the system were rigged for the Democrats (or Hillary, or Elites in general), Trump would have been a great candidate against Hillary.  He alienates many of his party.  He alienates many humans in general.  Considering how he has behaved up to this point, if he loses, and doesn't throw a tantrum, I'd be suspect of the system.

Of the system or Mr Trump?
Well, the argument is that Trump is part of the system.

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #956 on: October 18, 2016, 09:25:22 AM »
Wasn't the Brexit a single-issue ballot? We still have senators, congressman, local leaders, and referenda to consider, even if some people are unenthusiastic about their presidential nominees. I doubt that this will be a low-turnout election, as I also agree with MrMoogle that Trump is just as likely to drive his opponents to the polls as he is his supporters.
Not sure exactly how US elections work, but isn't this is a risk?


Maybe in some Crybaby fantasy - but call it close to zero.  And because of the Electoral College - Trump has just about zero chance of pulling off a victory - even if Hillary starts eating live babies on stage.  Well, ok, maybe then.

Kris

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #957 on: October 18, 2016, 10:04:25 AM »
Wasn't the Brexit a single-issue ballot? We still have senators, congressman, local leaders, and referenda to consider, even if some people are unenthusiastic about their presidential nominees. I doubt that this will be a low-turnout election, as I also agree with MrMoogle that Trump is just as likely to drive his opponents to the polls as he is his supporters.
Not sure exactly how US elections work, but isn't this is a risk?


Maybe in some Crybaby fantasy - but call it close to zero.  And because of the Electoral College - Trump has just about zero chance of pulling off a victory - even if Hillary starts eating live babies on stage.  Well, ok, maybe then.

I'm pretty sure there's some right wing media site that has published a breaking "story" that Hillary ate live babies on stage -- and some Trump supporters will believe it.

Source: pretty much all of the FB friends I have who are Trump supporters believe absolutely unbelievable stuff from the sites they read without questioning it. Hillary eating live babies isn't even all that extreme by comparison with some of the stuff I've seen them post.

Disclaimer: YES, I know that not all Trump supporters think this way. However, all Trump supporters on my FB feed, as far as I can tell, do think this way. They all happen to be people I graduated from high school with, as well.

jrhampt

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #958 on: October 18, 2016, 01:16:15 PM »
Wasn't the Brexit a single-issue ballot? We still have senators, congressman, local leaders, and referenda to consider, even if some people are unenthusiastic about their presidential nominees. I doubt that this will be a low-turnout election, as I also agree with MrMoogle that Trump is just as likely to drive his opponents to the polls as he is his supporters.
Not sure exactly how US elections work, but isn't this is a risk?


Maybe in some Crybaby fantasy - but call it close to zero.  And because of the Electoral College - Trump has just about zero chance of pulling off a victory - even if Hillary starts eating live babies on stage.  Well, ok, maybe then.

I'm pretty sure there's some right wing media site that has published a breaking "story" that Hillary ate live babies on stage -- and some Trump supporters will believe it.

Source: pretty much all of the FB friends I have who are Trump supporters believe absolutely unbelievable stuff from the sites they read without questioning it. Hillary eating live babies isn't even all that extreme by comparison with some of the stuff I've seen them post.

Disclaimer: YES, I know that not all Trump supporters think this way. However, all Trump supporters on my FB feed, as far as I can tell, do think this way. They all happen to be people I graduated from high school with, as well.

Yes, someone posted on my site recently that Obama had tried to legalize infanticide. This, as you might expect, turned out not to be true.

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #959 on: October 18, 2016, 01:50:59 PM »
Obama in the Rose Garden this morning:

It doesn’t really show the kind of leadership and toughness you want in a president,” Obama said. “You start whining before the game is even over? If whenever things are going badly for you, and you lose, you start blaming somebody else? Then you don’t have what it takes to be in this job.”

Obama pointed backwards, at the Oval Office, as he said that ― and he wasn’t done. “There are a lot of times when things don’t go our way. Or my way. That’s OK. You fight through it, you work through it, you try to accomplish your goals.”

“I’d advise Mr. Trump to stop whining and go try to make his case to get votes,” Obama said.


Ouch!! That's going to leave a mark.

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #960 on: October 18, 2016, 02:59:16 PM »
It doesn’t really show the kind of leadership and toughness you want in a president,” Obama said. “You start whining before the game is even over? If whenever things are going badly for you, and you lose, you start blaming somebody else? Then you don’t have what it takes to be in this job.”
Reading to this point I thought you were going to chastise Obama for blaming everything on Bush....

ender

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #961 on: October 18, 2016, 03:00:26 PM »
It doesn’t really show the kind of leadership and toughness you want in a president,” Obama said. “You start whining before the game is even over? If whenever things are going badly for you, and you lose, you start blaming somebody else? Then you don’t have what it takes to be in this job.”
Reading to this point I thought you were going to chastise Obama for blaming everything on Bush....

It's always someone else's fault in politics.


RangerOne

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #962 on: October 18, 2016, 03:46:40 PM »
I see little to no reason why this election would be low turnout. Presidential elections always draw out voters. Some people are saying they wont vote but I suspect most are simply tired of being shamed for their pick. The election is so chaotic and polarizing turn out should be well above the norm.

Any negative news about Trumps shiftiness as a person only feeds into the narrative that the media is so biased that they are making shit up to tear him down. Sure the media is biased for Hillary, but come on Trump spoon feeds the news bad press.

The fact the people seriously doubt that a rich entitled asshole like Trump didn't diddle countless women on the side while hanging out with jerk offs like Roger Ailes is stunning. The man who has a boat load of kids by 3 different super model wives. Yeah no way he has a pension for straying and going after attractive women.

The pattern of a domino effect of people coming out accusing Trump always happens this way when the accused are well known, liked and wealthy. Happened to Cosby and it happened to Roger the same way recently. These women gain nothing but scorn, shaming and death threats by coming out. Unless you chose to believe that the Clinton campaign has paid them all off. Which should be easy to prove one way or the other.
There is a difference between going after women and sexually assaulting women.  In the first, you respect no, in the latter, you are a criminal.  Let's focus on that fact that he is an admitted criminal, not that he is likely a cheat?

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I agree criminal allegations of assault are far worse than simply being a cheat. While I believe that he is very likely guilty of criminal sexual assault he has not been convicted of any such action by a court yet. I am mainly just focused on the fact that his supporters can so easily dismiss any allegation, even while allegations of sexual assault against powerful or famous serial offenders often always come out in the same pattern. One person comes forward and that encourages others to speak up. Most don't initially because there is often sadly little to be gained by speaking out except ridicule from the public and possible legal attacks by the accused who often has far more resources to hurt you than you do to hurt them.

It somehow escapes people that many times incidents like these are your word against theirs, and engaging in legal action is emotionally and financially costly to the point where often your best recourse is simply get away from the of offending person and not engage them further.

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #963 on: October 18, 2016, 03:49:07 PM »
It doesn’t really show the kind of leadership and toughness you want in a president,” Obama said. “You start whining before the game is even over? If whenever things are going badly for you, and you lose, you start blaming somebody else? Then you don’t have what it takes to be in this job.”
Reading to this point I thought you were going to chastise Obama for blaming everything on Bush....

It's always someone else's fault in politics.

Though it does set a new mark that you blame other people for not getting elected.  Wimp.

Telecaster

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #964 on: October 18, 2016, 04:06:33 PM »

It somehow escapes people that many times incidents like these are your word against theirs, and engaging in legal action is emotionally and financially costly to the point where often your best recourse is simply get away from the of offending person and not engage them further.

Worth pointing out that in this particular case, Trump is attacking his accusers, calling them lairs, criticizing their looks, threatening to sue the journalists who reported the stories, etc.

That result is exactly why women don't want to come forward in the first place. 

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #965 on: October 18, 2016, 05:24:56 PM »
Though it does set a new mark that you blame other people for not getting elected.
Oh, I don't know.  Seems Al Gore didn't say "yes, it was my fault for not winning my home state" but instead focused elsewhere....

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #966 on: October 18, 2016, 05:45:03 PM »
........and he graciously conceded and asked for national unity.  What chance do you think that the Crybaby will muster any semblance of grace man-up once election night is over - about 9 PM PST in my estimate.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #967 on: October 18, 2016, 05:49:27 PM »

It somehow escapes people that many times incidents like these are your word against theirs, and engaging in legal action is emotionally and financially costly to the point where often your best recourse is simply get away from the of offending person and not engage them further.

Worth pointing out that in this particular case, Trump is attacking his accusers, calling them lairs, criticizing their looks, threatening to sue the journalists who reported the stories, etc.

That result is exactly why women don't want to come forward in the first place.

Spot on.

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #968 on: October 18, 2016, 06:25:59 PM »
........and he graciously conceded and asked for national unity.  What chance do you think that the Crybaby will muster any semblance of grace man-up once election night is over - about 9 PM PST in my estimate.
Oh, don't get me wrong: I'm not saying Trump is a saint - far from it.

There are lots of pots and kettles running around and all are rather tarnished.  I agree that "it's never Trump's fault (in Trump's mind)" and that makes him unlikely to be a good president, much the same as Obama's various faults (lack of leadership experience, tendency to blame others, take undue credit, etc.) has made him not such a good president.  As someone else noted, at least Obama seems upstanding when it comes to his family.

Yes, Gore conceded...after this minor lawsuit he filed was settled in some out-of-the-way legal venue, somewhat after election night was over. ;)

Telecaster

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #969 on: October 18, 2016, 06:35:22 PM »

There are lots of pots and kettles running around and all are rather tarnished.  I agree that "it's never Trump's fault (in Trump's mind)" and that makes him unlikely to be a good president, much the same as Obama's various faults (lack of leadership experience, tendency to blame others, take undue credit, etc.) has made him not such a good president.  As someone else noted, at least Obama seems upstanding when it comes to his family.

Yes, Gore conceded...after this minor lawsuit he filed was settled in some out-of-the-way legal venue, somewhat after election night was over. ;)

To be fair, Bush filed the first lawsuit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/12/us/bush-sues-halt-hand-recount-florida-palm-beach-tally-starts-gop-cites-risk-flaws.html?_r=0

But that's water under the bridge at this point.  No good will come of going down that rat hole again. 


sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #970 on: October 18, 2016, 06:36:33 PM »
While I believe that he is very likely guilty of criminal sexual assault he has not been convicted of any such action by a court yet.

This is a good chance to point out that the type of sexual assault of which Trump is apparently fond hardly ever results in a criminal conviction.  This is the nature of systemic sexism.  For all of human history, with the possible exception of the past few years, a wealthy white man could grab the vagina of a woman with lower social standing, and stick his tongue in her mouth, and then just totally get away with it.  She might slap him, but it's not like he would ever be arrested or sentenced or jailed.  He could do it again the next time they met.  No consequences.  How powerless would that make you feel, white male forum readers, if another man did that to you and you couldn't do anything about it?  That's the world women live in.

This is the thing that most people don't get about sexism (or racism, etc).  It's been so common and so widespread that the offenders have been able to operate essentially free of consequences.  We may all individually recognize that grabbing a stranger's vagina is a horrible thing to do, but as a society it hasn't ever been a criminal offense.  Until maybe just recently, and even then it's questionable and on a case by case basis.

Every year, admitted rapists go free in this country with the defense that "well, we were both drunk" or "I thought she said yes before she passed out."  A little pussy grabbing here and there hardly even rates on my scale of sins against our collective moral code.  It's still heinous, but let's not pretend we don't look the other way when confronted with much worse things.  Sexism sucks.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 06:38:15 PM by sol »

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #971 on: October 18, 2016, 08:34:21 PM »
But that's water under the bridge at this point.  No good will come of going down that rat hole again.
True.  What difference at this point does it make?

Jack

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #972 on: October 19, 2016, 04:51:05 AM »
Though it does set a new mark that you blame other people for not getting elected.

Oh, I don't know.  Seems Al Gore didn't say "yes, it was my fault for not winning my home state" but instead focused elsewhere....

That is not even slightly a similar situation, and I suspect that you know it. Trying to somehow equate Gore and Trump is, frankly, ridiculous.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #973 on: October 19, 2016, 09:56:43 AM »
I am curious why there is not more focus on Pence.   My wife made the comment that he could spell potato with a 7 and nobody would notice.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #974 on: October 19, 2016, 10:09:01 AM »
I am curious why there is not more focus on Pence.   My wife made the comment that he could spell potato with a 7 and nobody would notice.

People rarely vote for or against the vice president, when your presidential candidate is a dumpster fire, why focus any energy on the vice?

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #975 on: October 19, 2016, 10:10:52 AM »
I think Trump is going to bring Hillary's 4th grade teacher to the debate because she got a C in art that year.

Gin1984

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #976 on: October 19, 2016, 10:24:11 AM »
I see little to no reason why this election would be low turnout. Presidential elections always draw out voters. Some people are saying they wont vote but I suspect most are simply tired of being shamed for their pick. The election is so chaotic and polarizing turn out should be well above the norm.

Any negative news about Trumps shiftiness as a person only feeds into the narrative that the media is so biased that they are making shit up to tear him down. Sure the media is biased for Hillary, but come on Trump spoon feeds the news bad press.

The fact the people seriously doubt that a rich entitled asshole like Trump didn't diddle countless women on the side while hanging out with jerk offs like Roger Ailes is stunning. The man who has a boat load of kids by 3 different super model wives. Yeah no way he has a pension for straying and going after attractive women.

The pattern of a domino effect of people coming out accusing Trump always happens this way when the accused are well known, liked and wealthy. Happened to Cosby and it happened to Roger the same way recently. These women gain nothing but scorn, shaming and death threats by coming out. Unless you chose to believe that the Clinton campaign has paid them all off. Which should be easy to prove one way or the other.
There is a difference between going after women and sexually assaulting women.  In the first, you respect no, in the latter, you are a criminal.  Let's focus on that fact that he is an admitted criminal, not that he is likely a cheat?

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I agree criminal allegations of assault are far worse than simply being a cheat. While I believe that he is very likely guilty of criminal sexual assault he has not been convicted of any such action by a court yet. I am mainly just focused on the fact that his supporters can so easily dismiss any allegation, even while allegations of sexual assault against powerful or famous serial offenders often always come out in the same pattern. One person comes forward and that encourages others to speak up. Most don't initially because there is often sadly little to be gained by speaking out except ridicule from the public and possible legal attacks by the accused who often has far more resources to hurt you than you do to hurt them.

It somehow escapes people that many times incidents like these are your word against theirs, and engaging in legal action is emotionally and financially costly to the point where often your best recourse is simply get away from the of offending person and not engage them further.
But that is not what I said, I said "he is an admitted criminal".  He admitted to sexually assaulting women.  Yes, because he did not name names means he won't get convicted but this is not a he said she said, this is he admitted to being a criminal.

thd7t

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #977 on: October 19, 2016, 11:51:01 AM »
I think Trump is going to bring Hillary's 4th grade teacher to the debate because she got a C in art that year.
Well, actually, "C" stood for"Consistently High Performance"!

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #978 on: October 19, 2016, 01:26:59 PM »
Though it does set a new mark that you blame other people for not getting elected.

Oh, I don't know.  Seems Al Gore didn't say "yes, it was my fault for not winning my home state" but instead focused elsewhere....

That is not even slightly a similar situation, and I suspect that you know it. Trying to somehow equate Gore and Trump is, frankly, ridiculous.

Equate?  Of course not.  Trump "setting a new mark"?  Also of course not. 

As was already observed, politics is full of people who spread blame and take credit.  They may not be exactly equal in a mathematical sense, but to pretend there isn't any resemblance is, frankly, ridiculous (as someone once said).

sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #979 on: October 20, 2016, 12:16:45 PM »
I had an interesting talk with a friend of mine last night.  He explained to me why he's supporting Trump.  Allow me to relate the high points...

He doesn't particularly like Trump as a candidate, but he's convinced that every rumor about the Clintons that he's heard in the past 30 years is true and this allows him an escape hatch for every one of Trump's weaknesses as a candidate.

For example, he's not thrilled that Trump's foundation was illegally raising funds and then illegally spending those funds to personally benefit Trump's family, but he thinks the Clinton foundation is a global conspiracy designed to subvert American interest abroad in exchange for funneling personal bribes to the Clintons.  He said "pay to play" a lot, and thinks Hillary is a money-hungry opportunist who literally sold out America to foreign powers by committing treason for profit.  He has no awareness of the actual charitable activities of the Clinton foundation.

As a corollary example, he thinks Trump should have released his tax returns just to get everyone to shut up, but he also thinks the Clintons have committed widespread tax fraud for decades.  He argues that the Clintons' combined net worth is larger than their lifetime earnings, and that the only way this is mathematically possible is if they're receiving money under the table somehow.  I didn't tell him that my net worth is also higher than my lifetime earnings.  He also thinks that the IRS already knows about this dirty Clinton money and is actively conspiring to cover it up, as part of an official government conspiracy between multiple federal agencies to get her elected, just so that she will increase their federal funding.  He apparently doesn't know that Congress sets budgets.

He acknowledges that Trump is probably a sexist, but he carefully distinguishes between sexism and racism and bigotry as separate evils. 
He finds the sexism charge insignificant, in part because he's personally a raging misogynist who is always posting Bill Burr clips from youtube.  He thinks that when Trump said "you can grab them by the pussy" he wasn't denigrating women, he was accurately reporting what it is that "money-grubbing whores" want him to do when they throw themselves at him, so that it's really the women's fault for being so trashy.
He argues that both Trump and Clinton are casual racists, like they don't personally associate with black people, but not "real racists" like the kind he grew up with.  He thinks that Trump's history of denying housing to minority applicants was commonplace in the industry when it happened and not indicative of personally racist feelings, just like Clinton's praise of her mentor Robert Byrd wasn't indicative of personal racism because Robert Byrd also lived in a time where racism was common.    So he basically calls this one a tie.

He thinks Trump University was clearly a scam, but that Donald had no personal involvement in it and therefor no personal liability.  By contrast, he thinks Hillary has personally orchestrated a series of criminal enterprises, and I'm not exaggerating the language there.  Like he thinks she's literally the head of a multi-faceted criminal organization that has maintained a thin veneer of public respectability while simultaneously running a variety of illegal operations.  Think of Frank Underwood in House of Cards, all shady associates and sex and murder and bribery and power plays.

I could go on, but the pattern holds.  On every single issue for which Trump has said or done something that I find clearly self-destructive, he finds a lens to view Trump's behavior as relatively acceptable and Clinton's behavior on the same topic as at least as bad, and usually catastrophically worse.  He thinks Trump is a rough and unpolished politician, but that Clinton is actively working to destroy the very ideals on which America was founded.  He's not even choosing between two bad candidates, he feels like he's choosing between a mediocre one and an actively evil one.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 12:43:42 PM by sol »

BigHaus89

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #980 on: October 20, 2016, 12:37:03 PM »
I had an interesting talk with a friend of mine last night.  He explained to me why he's supporting Trump.  Allow me to relate the high points...

He doesn't particularly like Trump as a candidate, but he's convinced that every rumor about the Clinton's that he's heard in the past 30 years is true and this allows him an escape hatch for every one of Trump's weaknesses as a candidate.

For example, he's not thrilled that Trump's foundation was illegally raising funds and then illegally spending those funds to personally benefit Trump's family, but he thinks the Clinton foundation is a global conspiracy designed to subvert American interest abroad in exchange for funneling personal bribes to the Clintons.  He said "pay to play" a lot, and thinks Hillary is a money-hungry opportunist who literally sold out America to foreign powers by committing treason for profit.  He has no awareness of the actual charitable activities of the Clinton foundation.

As a corollary example, he thinks Trump should have released his tax returns just to get everyone to shut up, but he also thinks the Clinton's have committed widespread tax fraud for decades.  He argues that the Clinton's combined net worth is larger than their lifetime earnings, and that the only way this is mathematically possible is if they're receiving money under the table somehow.  I didn't tell him that my net worth is also higher than my lifetime earnings.  He also thinks that the IRS already knows about this dirty Clinton money and is actively conspiring to cover it up, as part of an official government conspiracy between multiple federal agencies to get her elected, just so that she will increase their federal funding.  He apparently doesn't know that Congress sets budgets.

He acknowledges that Trump is probably a sexist, but he carefully distinguishes between sexism and racism and bigotry as separate evils. 
He finds the sexism charge insignificant, in part because he's personally a raging misogynist who is always posting Bill Burr clips from youtube.  He thinks that when Trump said "you can grab them by the pussy" he wasn't denigrating women, he was accurately reporting what it is that "money-grubbing whores" want him to do when they throw themselves at him, so that it's really the women's fault for being so trashy.
He argues that both Trump and Clinton are casual racists, like they don't personally associate with black people, but not "real racists" like the kind he grew up with.  He thinks that Trump's history of denying housing to minority applicants was commonplace in the industry when it happened and not indicative of personally racist feelings, just like Clinton's praise of her mentor Robert Byrd wasn't indicative of personal racism because Robert Byrd also lived in a time where racism was common.    So he basically calls this one a tie.

He thinks Trump University was clearly a scam, but that Donald had no personal involvement in it and therefor no personal liability.  By contrast, he thinks Hillary has personally orchestrated a series of criminal enterprises, and I'm not exaggerating the language there.  Like he thinks she's literally the head of a multi-faceted criminal organization that has maintained a thin veneer of public respectability while simultaneously running a variety of illegal operations.  Think of Frank Underwood in House of Cards, all shady associates and sex and murder and bribery and power plays.

I could go on, but the pattern holds.  On every single issue for which Trump has said or done something that I find clearly self-destructive, he finds a lens to view Trump's behavior as relatively acceptable and Clinton's behavior on the same topic as at least as bad, and usually catastrophically worse.  He thinks
Trump is a rough and unpolished politician, but that Clinton is actively working to destroy the very ideals on which America was founded.  He's not even choosing between two bad candidates, he feels like he's choosing between a mediocre one and an actively evil one.

That's.....interesting. This appears to be a similar justification for people who I know that are also voting for Trump.

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #981 on: October 20, 2016, 12:39:57 PM »
He thinks Trump is a rough and unpolished politician, but that Clinton is actively working to destroy the very ideals on which America was founded.
That's.....interesting. This appears to be a similar justification for people who I know that are also voting for Trump.
Yes, probably as good a one sentence answer to the thread title as any.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #982 on: October 20, 2016, 12:44:38 PM »
He thinks Trump is a rough and unpolished politician, but that Clinton is actively working to destroy the very ideals on which America was founded.
That's.....interesting. This appears to be a similar justification for people who I know that are also voting for Trump.
Yes, probably as good a one sentence answer to the thread title as any.

Also an unfortunate one. We have a candidate almost literally stating that he doesn't believe in the ideals of American democracy, and yet his supporters only nod their head as if this somehow makes him more qualified.


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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #983 on: October 20, 2016, 01:07:54 PM »
I had an interesting talk with a friend of mine last night.  He explained to me why he's supporting Trump.  Allow me to relate the high points...

He doesn't particularly like Trump as a candidate, but he's convinced that every rumor about the Clintons that he's heard in the past 30 years is true and this allows him an escape hatch for every one of Trump's weaknesses as a candidate.

For example, he's not thrilled that Trump's foundation was illegally raising funds and then illegally spending those funds to personally benefit Trump's family, but he thinks the Clinton foundation is a global conspiracy designed to subvert American interest abroad in exchange for funneling personal bribes to the Clintons.  He said "pay to play" a lot, and thinks Hillary is a money-hungry opportunist who literally sold out America to foreign powers by committing treason for profit.  He has no awareness of the actual charitable activities of the Clinton foundation.

As a corollary example, he thinks Trump should have released his tax returns just to get everyone to shut up, but he also thinks the Clintons have committed widespread tax fraud for decades.  He argues that the Clintons' combined net worth is larger than their lifetime earnings, and that the only way this is mathematically possible is if they're receiving money under the table somehow.  I didn't tell him that my net worth is also higher than my lifetime earnings.  He also thinks that the IRS already knows about this dirty Clinton money and is actively conspiring to cover it up, as part of an official government conspiracy between multiple federal agencies to get her elected, just so that she will increase their federal funding.  He apparently doesn't know that Congress sets budgets.

He acknowledges that Trump is probably a sexist, but he carefully distinguishes between sexism and racism and bigotry as separate evils. 
He finds the sexism charge insignificant, in part because he's personally a raging misogynist who is always posting Bill Burr clips from youtube.  He thinks that when Trump said "you can grab them by the pussy" he wasn't denigrating women, he was accurately reporting what it is that "money-grubbing whores" want him to do when they throw themselves at him, so that it's really the women's fault for being so trashy.
He argues that both Trump and Clinton are casual racists, like they don't personally associate with black people, but not "real racists" like the kind he grew up with.  He thinks that Trump's history of denying housing to minority applicants was commonplace in the industry when it happened and not indicative of personally racist feelings, just like Clinton's praise of her mentor Robert Byrd wasn't indicative of personal racism because Robert Byrd also lived in a time where racism was common.    So he basically calls this one a tie.

He thinks Trump University was clearly a scam, but that Donald had no personal involvement in it and therefor no personal liability.  By contrast, he thinks Hillary has personally orchestrated a series of criminal enterprises, and I'm not exaggerating the language there.  Like he thinks she's literally the head of a multi-faceted criminal organization that has maintained a thin veneer of public respectability while simultaneously running a variety of illegal operations.  Think of Frank Underwood in House of Cards, all shady associates and sex and murder and bribery and power plays.

I could go on, but the pattern holds.  On every single issue for which Trump has said or done something that I find clearly self-destructive, he finds a lens to view Trump's behavior as relatively acceptable and Clinton's behavior on the same topic as at least as bad, and usually catastrophically worse.  He thinks Trump is a rough and unpolished politician, but that Clinton is actively working to destroy the very ideals on which America was founded.  He's not even choosing between two bad candidates, he feels like he's choosing between a mediocre one and an actively evil one.

I am confused, you started off calling this person a 'friend'. I don't think I would hang out with someone who aggravated me this much. Seriously, though you could probably switch a Hillary supporter and change a few things and it would just sound the same.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #984 on: October 20, 2016, 01:13:51 PM »
While I have tried to understand the diminished opportunities of rural American, the frustrating effects of the world economy and cheap overseas labor, the increasing emphasis of higher education and technical skills, and the changing resource extraction and its affects on many people and how they could be drawn to an outsider for president -- I still have a hard time seeing the logic in backing such a vile person who is not fit for the role.

And my conclusion is that these folks are just dumb as stumps.  Logic is absent and predominately replaced by gut feeling and truthiness.  Welcome to the land of Idiocracy.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

[MOD NOTE:  Manners, please.  There are such voters, presumably, on this forum.  We can't just paint them all this way.  Probably they would say the same about Clinton voters.]
« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 02:18:39 PM by FrugalToque »

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #985 on: October 20, 2016, 01:35:52 PM »
What really puzzles me about Trump voters is how they support him even when his positions are clearly contrary to their own interests. I see it all the time when they are interviewed. An example nearer to me is a close family member of mine who is going to vote for Trump even though they are married to an illegal alien. Whaaaat???

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #986 on: October 20, 2016, 03:14:08 PM »
While I have tried to understand the diminished opportunities of rural American, the frustrating effects of the world economy and cheap overseas labor, the increasing emphasis of higher education and technical skills, and the changing resource extraction and its affects on many people and how they could be drawn to an outsider for president -- I still have a hard time seeing the logic in backing such a vile person who is not fit for the role.

And my conclusion is that these folks are just dumb as stumps.  Logic is absent and predominately replaced by gut feeling and truthiness.  Welcome to the land of Idiocracy.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

[MOD NOTE:  Manners, please.  There are such voters, presumably, on this forum.  We can't just paint them all this way.  Probably they would say the same about Clinton voters.]



Interesting.  Maybe you would prefer something such as:   ...............seem to lack a logical framework upon how they are backing such a candidate.  It may be that they are just not able to think through the possibilities of a Trump presidency, the day to day important decisions made by a president, the long-term policy decisions that will affect their lives. 

Given the preponderance of evidence that Mr. Trump lacks commonly known information on world affairs and world leaders, and does not appear to be interested in learning such nuances, and the lack of specifics of his policy pronouncements other than the use of superlatives - one might easily conclude that he lacks the intelligence and agile predisposition needed to accompany this complex job.  Thus - the choice of this seemingly unqualified candidate and the desire of his followers to implement wide-scale changes in federal policy seem incongruent. 

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #987 on: October 20, 2016, 03:22:46 PM »
Thus - the choice of this seemingly unqualified candidate and the desire of his followers to implement wide-scale changes in federal policy seem incongruent.

Or his voters think:
...Trump is a rough and unpolished politician, but that Clinton is actively working to destroy the very ideals on which America was founded.

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #988 on: October 20, 2016, 03:31:21 PM »
Like I said - truthiness over facts.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #989 on: October 20, 2016, 03:46:42 PM »

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #990 on: October 20, 2016, 03:54:36 PM »
Like I said - truthiness over facts.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness
Indeed.  Dan Rather, anyone?

Interesting pivot but I don't see the relationship between the mass voting trend based on not facts but feelings and a journalist's poor job of verifiying sources.

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #991 on: October 20, 2016, 04:19:24 PM »
Like I said - truthiness over facts.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness
Indeed.  Dan Rather, anyone?
Interesting pivot but I don't see the relationship between the mass voting trend based on not facts but feelings and a journalist's poor job of verifiying sources.
True, we all see things from different perspectives.  Seems the most ardent partisans from each side have the most warped views of the other.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #992 on: October 20, 2016, 04:22:43 PM »
a wealthy white man could grab the vagina of a woman
LOL, I know what you meant sol, but it's definitely grabbing their vulvas, not vaginas. That mental picture is a lot more "American Psycho" than "Mad Men", and would probably be physically impossible for Trump anyway due to his teeny little baby fingers XD

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #993 on: October 20, 2016, 04:33:39 PM »
The Establishment and the media hate the guy. He must be doing something right.

He's an orange 6'3" monkey wrench we can throw into the bloated self-serving DC cronyism machine. I hope he's a patriot and will at least attempt, if not succeed, at cutting taxes and regulations.

What is there to lose with a Trump presidency? nothing, really. Both sides of the aisle will will be so devoted to maintaining the status quo, shutting down the Trump. Worst case it will be a contentious and exciting 4yrs, and nothing will get done. The country will be fine. pssst, this is one guy, folks, the president is not a king. He can't unilaterally do this, end that, nuke anyone. Sounds pretty good.

What is there to gain with a Trump presidency? lower taxes, reduced regulation, secure borders. He has a proven 40yr history of running his mouth and then making smart, risk-averse, considered decisions. Sounds even better.

I think many anti-Trumpers don't like the fact that he's a giant prick. Sure he is. Many New Yorkers are (sorry, but true). On a personal level I despise the guy myself. But that is irrelevant.

Trump is a tool. He's a once in a blue moon, maybe once in a lifetime opportunity to disrupt the Establishment and cause real change.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #994 on: October 20, 2016, 04:45:08 PM »
Like I said - truthiness over facts.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truthiness
Indeed.  Dan Rather, anyone?
Interesting pivot but I don't see the relationship between the mass voting trend based on not facts but feelings and a journalist's poor job of verifiying sources.
True, we all see things from different perspectives.  Seems the most ardent partisans from each side have the most warped views of the other.

I'm not arguing any kind of partisanship or political leanings.  One could easily point to the Rather incident and ask if his leanings led him too eagerly to ignore the pitfalls of an obviously incomplete chain of custody of the document in question and a lack of journalistic standards.  That would be a fair challenge and assessment.

Instead - I'm pointing towards a candidate who -- from any logical analysis - has shown lewd behavior and speech towards women;who mocks a disabled report by pantomiming his walking & using his hands, who does not have a grasp on world affairs, leaders, or circumstances - and who does not appear to care to learn; who uses rising adjectives to describe his policies and nothing else, who has a very thin skin and throws insults around constantly, and who brags about and has recently assaulted women. 

All in all - on any logic scale - he is someone who does not have the disposition, character, intellect, or diplomatic skills to be president.

Rather than balance these traits his (dwindling) proponents seem to think he will be able to install widespread changes in D.C. - not based on any evidence or facts -but because they "feel" it is so.  Thus - Truthiness apparently is a driving force among Trump voters.

Can't wait for election night and this guy to get buried.

In the meantime it is quite entertaining to watch the rats scurrying to jump overboard http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/trump-national-political-director-steps-back-from-campaign-230120

« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 04:48:50 PM by Northwestie »

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #995 on: October 20, 2016, 04:50:14 PM »
I'm not arguing any kind of partisanship or political leanings.
...
Can't wait for election night and this guy to get buried.
If you say so....

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #996 on: October 20, 2016, 05:00:08 PM »
Oh yea - I called this as soon as he got nominated.  I'm registered as an Independent and have voted for both parties over the years with no concern that if my guy did not get in that the opposition candidate could take control of the ship of state without concern.

In this case though - Trump is thoroughly unqualified for the job.  And a large number of Republicans and generally right-leaning newspapers agree.   

And yes, will enjoy seeing him get trounced and sent packing.  Can't wait for this boor to go away.

sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #997 on: October 20, 2016, 05:37:46 PM »
And yes, will enjoy seeing him get trounced and sent packing.  Can't wait for this boor to go away.

In the past 24 hours I've seen a revival of the old "Trump is secretly a genius" discussions that used to be so common on this very forum during the primaries.

Basically, the argument is that Trump has roadmapped a path to victory that involves disputing the election results and then litigating the vote all the way to the impotent Supreme Court, which he has helped keep divided at 4-4 (and can therefore only affirm a lower court's decision), because he's confident that he can persuade a majority of State justices to back him.  So basically he doesn't need anywhere need a majority of the popular vote, he just needs a majority of State Supreme Court justices in a handful of swing states.  He's planning to become President based on the support of about 25 people, who he has apparently already identified and convinced to back him.

That's the theory, anyway.  Is it evil genius? 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #998 on: October 20, 2016, 05:44:57 PM »
And yes, will enjoy seeing him get trounced and sent packing.  Can't wait for this boor to go away.

In the past 24 hours I've seen a revival of the old "Trump is secretly a genius" discussions that used to be so common on this very forum during the primaries.

Basically, the argument is that Trump has roadmapped a path to victory that involves disputing the election results and then litigating the vote all the way to the impotent Supreme Court, which he has helped keep divided at 4-4 (and can therefore only affirm a lower court's decision), because he's confident that he can persuade a majority of State justices to back him.  So basically he doesn't need anywhere need a majority of the popular vote, he just needs a majority of State Supreme Court justices in a handful of swing states.  He's planning to become President based on the support of about 25 people, who he has apparently already identified and convinced to back him.

That's the theory, anyway.  Is it evil genius?

Wow.

What a crazy, laughable idea.

I love it.  :D

No chance.  I know democracies, I have the best democracies.  People have been talking about my democracies. And that would be a disaster.   Some people have said they believe this theory.  SAD.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #999 on: October 20, 2016, 05:51:13 PM »
You are making my head hurt.  But - I do have faith in our judicial system that any claim of mass voting fraud has to be backed up by evidence.  Here's to rule of law.

 

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