Author Topic: Trump Voters.... why?  (Read 209667 times)

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #750 on: October 09, 2016, 01:43:08 PM »
Like I've been saying from the start - Clinton will bury him and then we can, hopefully, move on to more adult conversations about policy, budgets, and foreign affairs rather than this tripe.
...
Come November 4th -- good riddance.
Isn't that the real problem?
Trump has effectively cancelled the 2016 presidential contest, it is exactly as if President Obama had abolished the election and handed over to his anointed successor.
 
Strangely this doesn't seem to be the thing that people are most angry about.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 01:44:43 PM by nobodyspecial »

dividendman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #751 on: October 09, 2016, 01:43:39 PM »
Back on topic - I'm quite stunned that folks would consider voting for this clown give the several implosions just in the last couple weeks.

Like I've been saying from the start - Clinton will bury him and then we can, hopefully, move on to more adult conversations about policy, budgets, and foreign affairs rather than this tripe.

Unfortunately we'll have to see him first wade through the sewer in his debate dialog two more times. 

Come November 4th -- good riddance.

(The election is on the 8th)

I agree with you. It makes me miss the 2008 and 2012 campaigns. Although those elections had their share of silliness, McCain and Romney were qualified to be President (forget the crazy VP pick of McCain), had some good ideas, could articulate their positions and flaws in their opponents position without personal attacks, and actually knew world affairs, how government operates, etc.

The real question is: If Trump loses, does the populist faction of the GOP dig in and continue or do they try to create a party that can actually win presidential elections? The electorate will be more diverse, more educated and less white in the next election than in this one.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #752 on: October 09, 2016, 02:05:31 PM »
Like I've been saying from the start - Clinton will bury him and then we can, hopefully, move on to more adult conversations about policy, budgets, and foreign affairs rather than this tripe.
...
Come November 4th -- good riddance.
Isn't that the real problem?
Trump has effectively cancelled the 2016 presidential contest, it is exactly as if President Obama had abolished the election and handed over to his anointed successor.
 
Strangely this doesn't seem to be the thing that people are most angry about.

Wait. Are you implying that this is some sort of conspiracy by Obama? The GOP should be angry at Obama for the Trump nomination? Surely that cannot be your meaning. That would be almost as crazy as McConnell blaming Obama for the veto override of the ill-conceived 911 bill last week.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #753 on: October 09, 2016, 02:16:54 PM »
Wait. Are you implying that this is some sort of conspiracy by Obama? The GOP should be angry at Obama for the Trump nomination? Surely that cannot be your meaning. That would be almost as crazy as McConnell blaming Obama for the veto override of the ill-conceived 911 bill last week.
No I'm saying that instead of being angry at what Mr Trump said or did in some debate people should be angry at both parties and the party/primary system for removing any real political choice.

Although I do have a sneaking suspicion that Trump is really Bill in a mask, have they been seen together ?
 

Glenstache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #754 on: October 09, 2016, 02:27:33 PM »
Wait. Are you implying that this is some sort of conspiracy by Obama? The GOP should be angry at Obama for the Trump nomination? Surely that cannot be your meaning. That would be almost as crazy as McConnell blaming Obama for the veto override of the ill-conceived 911 bill last week.
No I'm saying that instead of being angry at what Mr Trump said or did in some debate people should be angry at both parties and the party/primary system for removing any real political choice.

Although I do have a sneaking suspicion that Trump is really Bill in a mask, have they been seen together ?

I've long been a fan of ranked voting instead of winner take all. But, the lack of choice at this point is due to the GOP nominating a shitty candidate. HRC may not be perfect, but she is qualified, she is competent, and is a completely reasonable person to have as a candidate.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #755 on: October 09, 2016, 04:05:39 PM »
Wait. Are you implying that this is some sort of conspiracy by Obama? The GOP should be angry at Obama for the Trump nomination? Surely that cannot be your meaning. That would be almost as crazy as McConnell blaming Obama for the veto override of the ill-conceived 911 bill last week.
No I'm saying that instead of being angry at what Mr Trump said or did in some debate people should be angry at both parties and the party/primary system for removing any real political choice.

Although I do have a sneaking suspicion that Trump is really Bill in a mask, have they been seen together ?

I've long been a fan of ranked voting instead of winner take all. But, the lack of choice at this point is due to the GOP nominating a shitty candidate. HRC may not be perfect, but she is qualified, she is competent, and is a completely reasonable person to have as a candidate.
But it would have been equally bad if the GOP had nominated Yet_Another_Bush(tm) with no debate and the democrats had John Stuart as the result of changing the rules to vote by twitter.

It's the system that is broken.

A good talk on the problem http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/videoAndAudio/channels/publicLecturesAndEvents/player.aspx?id=3601 (Why Washington Won't Work)

Kris

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #756 on: October 09, 2016, 04:46:34 PM »
Well, Clinton hadn't done anything with Lewinsky (the intern that you keep referencing) when he sought office. It's a false equivalency.
Actually he had, it just hadn't been publicized yet.  So yes, it wasn't public knowledge when he ran for president but it was when the impeachment trial occurred.  Do you see no comparison whatsoever?
You are referring to the '96 election. However, as you said, the public didn't know about this affair. However, I disagree that Hillary staying with Bill is complicity. It is virtue.

I can just imagine it being called virtue if Melania had defended Trump the way Hillary defended her husband...

Um, she IS...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/08/melania-trump-hopes-voters-will-accept-her-husbands-apology-for-his-unacceptable-and-offensive-comments-about-women/

Metric Mouse

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #757 on: October 09, 2016, 05:00:14 PM »
Well, Clinton hadn't done anything with Lewinsky (the intern that you keep referencing) when he sought office. It's a false equivalency.
Actually he had, it just hadn't been publicized yet.  So yes, it wasn't public knowledge when he ran for president but it was when the impeachment trial occurred.  Do you see no comparison whatsoever?
You are referring to the '96 election. However, as you said, the public didn't know about this affair. However, I disagree that Hillary staying with Bill is complicity. It is virtue.

I can just imagine it being called virtue if Melania had defended Trump the way Hillary defended her husband...

Um, she IS...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/08/melania-trump-hopes-voters-will-accept-her-husbands-apology-for-his-unacceptable-and-offensive-comments-about-women/

OK - is it a good thing that she's standing by her husband? Or does that only apply to other people?

thd7t

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #758 on: October 09, 2016, 05:42:04 PM »
Well, Clinton hadn't done anything with Lewinsky (the intern that you keep referencing) when he sought office. It's a false equivalency.
Actually he had, it just hadn't been publicized yet.  So yes, it wasn't public knowledge when he ran for president but it was when the impeachment trial occurred.  Do you see no comparison whatsoever?
You are referring to the '96 election. However, as you said, the public didn't know about this affair. However, I disagree that Hillary staying with Bill is complicity. It is virtue.

I can just imagine it being called virtue if Melania had defended Trump the way Hillary defended her husband...

Um, she IS...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/08/melania-trump-hopes-voters-will-accept-her-husbands-apology-for-his-unacceptable-and-offensive-comments-about-women/

OK - is it a good thing that she's standing by her husband? Or does that only apply to other people?
It demonstrates her commitment to family, but she isn't running for office. It's also not important or relevant that she appeared in "scandalous" photos.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #759 on: October 09, 2016, 05:44:31 PM »

I can just imagine it being called virtue if Melania had defended Trump the way Hillary defended her husband...

Um, she IS...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/08/melania-trump-hopes-voters-will-accept-her-husbands-apology-for-his-unacceptable-and-offensive-comments-about-women/

OK - is it a good thing that she's standing by her husband? Or does that only apply to other people?
It demonstrates her commitment to family, but she isn't running for office. It's also not important or relevant that she appeared in "scandalous" photos.
[/quote]

That would be my opinion; perhaps others disagree.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #760 on: October 09, 2016, 05:44:44 PM »
Wait. Are you implying that this is some sort of conspiracy by Obama? The GOP should be angry at Obama for the Trump nomination? Surely that cannot be your meaning. That would be almost as crazy as McConnell blaming Obama for the veto override of the ill-conceived 911 bill last week.
No I'm saying that instead of being angry at what Mr Trump said or did in some debate people should be angry at both parties and the party/primary system for removing any real political choice.

Although I do have a sneaking suspicion that Trump is really Bill in a mask, have they been seen together ?

I've long been a fan of ranked voting instead of winner take all. But, the lack of choice at this point is due to the GOP nominating a shitty candidate. HRC may not be perfect, but she is qualified, she is competent, and is a completely reasonable person to have as a candidate.

How in the WORLD could you say she is "qualified"? Really? What qualifications? A complete failure as SoS? Her incompetence concerning Benghazi and utterly unable to accept the blame, much less apologize? A waste of a seat when she bought her way to Senator? Riding the right coattails in marrying Bill Clinton? Keeping silent while Bill sexually abused over a dozen women, a silence which by the way has resulted in these same people vilifying Camille Cosby. What are her qualifications exactly?

She's an accomplished liar. This is proven. She's isn't capable of accepting responsibility. Benghazi was the result of an obscure video. She can't be trusted with the nation's secrets, obviously. She's just another corrupt, dirty politician. Come on.

The so-called Clinton Foundation has been enriched by her back door deals, people paying Bill millions to speak and then coincidentally Hillary signs legislation that benefits the people that paid Bill millions soon after. Look it up. It happened more than a dozen times.

And you people want to pretend she's "capable" and "a reasonable candidate"?? You know better. You just hate Trump.

You ignore misogynistic behavior...IF it's the right man...but condemn it if it is not. At best you are not being honest with yourself. At worst, you are hypocrites at a level rivaling Bill and Hillary themselves.

Trump hating jackasses, every single one of you. If the mainstream media aka the Democrat Party propaganda arm can get the corpse that is Hillary elected, you left wing apologists deserve what's coming.

So... you're voting for Stein, then?

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #761 on: October 09, 2016, 05:47:31 PM »
Anyone who accuses Fox News of being left wing most likely has some pretty extreme views.

Imagine how this campaign season would have been if someone like Jeb Bush had been selected as the GOP candidate.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 06:17:08 PM by alsoknownasDean »

arebelspy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #762 on: October 09, 2016, 06:49:45 PM »
I believe this thread has officially become lock-worthy.

Don't let the troll win. It's annoying to me when single users can go off the deep end and single-handedly shut down threads.

Citation needed.

Threads are locked when the personal attacks from everyone get overwhelming.  Not when everyone is civil, and a single person isn't. 

This is the second time I've seen you perpetuating this idea, which just isn't true, IMO.  Prove me wrong with a few examples, please, because if it's true, it's something we'll fix... I just don't think it's true.
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ender

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #763 on: October 09, 2016, 06:54:28 PM »
I believe this thread has officially become lock-worthy.

Don't let the troll win. It's annoying to me when single users can go off the deep end and single-handedly shut down threads.

Citation needed.

Threads are locked when the personal attacks from everyone get overwhelming.  Not when everyone is civil, and a single person isn't. 

This is the second time I've seen you perpetuating this idea, which just isn't true, IMO.  Prove me wrong with a few examples, please, because if it's true, it's something we'll fix... I just don't think it's true.

The user in question who inspired the lock-worthy comment (and my response) appears to have met an untimely perfect demise and no longer has posts in this thread.

arebelspy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #764 on: October 09, 2016, 07:15:59 PM »
I believe this thread has officially become lock-worthy.

Don't let the troll win. It's annoying to me when single users can go off the deep end and single-handedly shut down threads.

Citation needed.

Threads are locked when the personal attacks from everyone get overwhelming.  Not when everyone is civil, and a single person isn't. 

This is the second time I've seen you perpetuating this idea, which just isn't true, IMO.  Prove me wrong with a few examples, please, because if it's true, it's something we'll fix... I just don't think it's true.

The user in question who inspired the lock-worthy comment (and my response) appears to have met an untimely perfect demise and no longer has posts in this thread.

So that's an example of the opposite of what you were saying?  ;)

I didn't remove that poster, FWIW, and was not aware they no longer existed until trying to follow the links to their quotes, but I was asking because your post seems to imply this happens regularly.
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alsoknownasDean

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #765 on: October 09, 2016, 07:38:57 PM »
Isn't the debate happening now?

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk


Metric Mouse

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #766 on: October 09, 2016, 07:45:51 PM »
Isn't the debate happening now?

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

This is a political thread. How would we know anything about that? :D Don't ask such outrageous questions, or your account could be removed.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #767 on: October 09, 2016, 07:59:10 PM »
Isn't the debate happening now?

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

This is a political thread. How would we know anything about that? :D Don't ask such outrageous questions, or your account could be removed.
You misunderstood - the message was sent by his phone.

The machines became self-aware at some point during the campaign and they are really confused about how humans managed to remain in charge for so long.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #768 on: October 09, 2016, 08:15:01 PM »
Isn't the debate happening now?

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

This is a political thread. How would we know anything about that? :D Don't ask such outrageous questions, or your account could be removed.
You misunderstood - the message was sent by his phone.

The machines became self-aware at some point during the campaign and they are really confused about how humans managed to remain in charge for so long.
Ah, you got me! :)

But yeah honestly I can't see Trump recovering from this. Even much of his own party is disowning him.

I think a lot of those folks who were on the fence about Trump will probably stay at home now.

Metric Mouse

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #769 on: October 09, 2016, 09:08:57 PM »
Isn't the debate happening now?

Sent from my LG-D855 using Tapatalk

This is a political thread. How would we know anything about that? :D Don't ask such outrageous questions, or your account could be removed.
You misunderstood - the message was sent by his phone.

The machines became self-aware at some point during the campaign and they are really confused about how humans managed to remain in charge for so long.

No wonder all those Samsung phones are blowing up - we've overheated their logic circuits!

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #770 on: October 09, 2016, 09:23:24 PM »
Not buying it as an analogy. The argument was simply that people would not vote for Hillary because of what Bill did. Period.
Yeah, if you disagree on policy, it's more straight forward to just say that. The Bill stuff sounds like obfuscation.

With all the posts in this thread, it can be difficult to follow who said what.  Let's go back to the post in which I responded to dividendman's question about how someone could vote for Trump:
Finally... I need a Trump voter to just explain to me, especially those with sisters, daughters, wives, how you tell them that you're voting for someone who thinks he can grab them "by the pussy" because he is a star?
Can't help you there.  Of course, I couldn't explain how one could vote for Bill Clinton given what he did with a young intern.

I suspect both Trump's and (Bill) Clinton's supporters just figure "I like his politics better than the alternative, so I'll just overlook those annoying personal foibles."

I'm really not sure how you read "people would not vote for Hillary because of what Bill did" or "The Bill stuff sounds like obfuscation" from that.

thd7t

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #771 on: October 10, 2016, 08:00:54 AM »
Not buying it as an analogy. The argument was simply that people would not vote for Hillary because of what Bill did. Period.
Yeah, if you disagree on policy, it's more straight forward to just say that. The Bill stuff sounds like obfuscation.

With all the posts in this thread, it can be difficult to follow who said what.  Let's go back to the post in which I responded to dividendman's question about how someone could vote for Trump:
Finally... I need a Trump voter to just explain to me, especially those with sisters, daughters, wives, how you tell them that you're voting for someone who thinks he can grab them "by the pussy" because he is a star?
Can't help you there.  Of course, I couldn't explain how one could vote for Bill Clinton given what he did with a young intern.

I suspect both Trump's and (Bill) Clinton's supporters just figure "I like his politics better than the alternative, so I'll just overlook those annoying personal foibles."

I'm really not sure how you read "people would not vote for Hillary because of what Bill did" or "The Bill stuff sounds like obfuscation" from that.
Because, as you pointed out, the Lewinsky affair was not widely known at the time of the 1996 election. Therefore, it seemed like you were referring to it in reference to the current election. You clarified that later, but your initial statement was confusing (probably an issue of forum posting).

Scandium

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #772 on: October 10, 2016, 08:16:31 AM »
The focus on Bill has been somewhat confusing to me as well....
Often analogies are helpful when explaining things.  In this case, at least for some, apparently not. 

Let's try an analogy-free version: some people support Trump because, despite what he does in his personal life, they agree with his political views.

I still don't understand. What are his political views? And what there is makes no sense! The out-and-proud white supremacists support him; ok I guess they have their reasons. But that should (hopefully) be a small number of people. For anyone else with half a brain and a minimal understanding of the constitution, the budget and foreign policy nothing Trump has said makes any sense.

"So great" "the best", "yuge" aren't policy pronouncements. I've never seen him adequately explain HOW he's achieving any of this. Bring jobs back and grown the economy, ok but how? Tariffs on Chinese goods won't achieve that, any idiot knows that. "Kick their ass" as a policy in the middle east has been tried for a few decades now and don't work (and for 60 years by Israel, and few hundred before that by others). Who in their right mind would want more of that?! Agree or not with Hilary's policies, she at least attempt to state how she will do things.

Yes I'm confused how people can support a jerk as big as Trump. He's on a different level than other "hold your nose and vote" candidates (IMO). But equally I struggle to understand how anyone can vote for someone who's promises are clearly made up nonsense with zero explanation on how to achieve it, and zero chance of happening. Politicians have always told voters what they want to hear, Trump just figured out you don't even have to try to speak the truth or even make logical sense. And for some reason it worked.

Jack

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #773 on: October 10, 2016, 08:36:21 AM »
Politicians have always told voters what they want to hear, Trump just figured out you don't even have to try to speak the truth or even make logical sense. And for some reason it worked.

Trump didn't figure that out by himself; he read it in a book.

arebelspy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #774 on: October 10, 2016, 09:10:00 AM »
I still don't understand. What are his political views?

Obviously you haven't been paying attention.  He has political views.  He has the best political views.  He knows tons of politicians who say that his political views are the best.  He's going to win.  He's going to win with China.  He's going to win with ISIS.

Are we clear now?
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MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #775 on: October 10, 2016, 09:29:11 AM »
...probably an issue of forum posting.
Certainly plausible.  That does happen every so often. ;)

dividendman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #776 on: October 10, 2016, 09:55:17 AM »
I still don't understand. What are his political views?

Obviously you haven't been paying attention.  He has political views.  He has the best political views.  He knows tons of politicians who say that his political views are the best.  He's going to win.  He's going to win with China.  He's going to win with ISIS.

Are we clear now?

Don't forget,  he's going to increase employment big league. That is a key plank of his platform.

Kris

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #777 on: October 10, 2016, 09:59:21 AM »
I still don't understand. What are his political views?

Obviously you haven't been paying attention.  He has political views.  He has the best political views.  He knows tons of politicians who say that his political views are the best.  He's going to win.  He's going to win with China.  He's going to win with ISIS.

Are we clear now?

Don't forget,  he's going to increase employment big league. That is a key plank of his platform.

Bigly.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #778 on: October 10, 2016, 11:38:24 AM »
Don't forget,  he's going to increase employment big league. That is a key plank of his platform.
Bigly.
How to increase employment, reduce government red tape, compete with Chinese wages and remove any suggestion of racism?
Abolish the 13th amendment and open opportunities in the cotton industry to people of all colors.



MasterStache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #779 on: October 10, 2016, 01:11:11 PM »
I still don't understand. What are his political views?

Obviously you haven't been paying attention.  He has political views.  He has the best political views.  He knows tons of politicians who say that his political views are the best.  He's going to win.  He's going to win with China.  He's going to win with ISIS.

Are we clear now?

Don't forget,  he's going to increase employment big league. That is a key plank of his platform.

Let's not forget he doesn't know Russia. Well ok he knows Russia but he knows nothing about how they operate.

I couldn't stop laughing when he stated that about Russia.

MrMoogle

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #780 on: October 10, 2016, 01:26:46 PM »
The focus on Bill has been somewhat confusing to me as well....
Often analogies are helpful when explaining things.  In this case, at least for some, apparently not. 

Let's try an analogy-free version: some people support Trump because, despite what he does in his personal life, they agree with his political views.

I still don't understand. What are his political views?
How about, if you disagree with the other candidate's political views and believe in a 2-party system?

And for the "Make America Great Again" and when should that be.  When I was a child, it seemed like most people were proud to be Americans.  I don't see that today, but it probably has more to me becoming an adult and not seeing things through the eyes of a child.  Both major parties want to change things, they don't seem content, and therefore want to change America.  This can be seen as they aren't proud of it.

I don't think the idea is to take us back to a time before women's suffrage or equal rights.  I think it's more, "Make You Proud to be an American (like it seemed to be in the past)."

Just like I don't think the "Black Lives Matter" movement is saying only black lives matter.  It's saying black lives also matter.

You can read into both slogans what you want.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #781 on: October 10, 2016, 02:13:45 PM »
The focus on Bill has been somewhat confusing to me as well....
Often analogies are helpful when explaining things.  In this case, at least for some, apparently not. 

Let's try an analogy-free version: some people support Trump because, despite what he does in his personal life, they agree with his political views.

I still don't understand. What are his political views?
How about, if you disagree with the other candidate's political views and believe in a 2-party system?

And for the "Make America Great Again" and when should that be.  When I was a child, it seemed like most people were proud to be Americans.  I don't see that today, but it probably has more to me becoming an adult and not seeing things through the eyes of a child.  Both major parties want to change things, they don't seem content, and therefore want to change America.  This can be seen as they aren't proud of it.

I don't think the idea is to take us back to a time before women's suffrage or equal rights.  I think it's more, "Make You Proud to be an American (like it seemed to be in the past)."

Just like I don't think the "Black Lives Matter" movement is saying only black lives matter.  It's saying black lives also matter.

You can read into both slogans what you want.

But his slogan is completely vapid.  When was this supposed greatness, and how/why did it end? Great in what way? For a rational person to be proud of something there has to be a reason that makes sense, otherwise alliance to a geographic region is just brainwashed nationalism. Reminds me of the old joke that the difference between the Americans and the Soviets was that the Soviet people didn't believe their own propaganda..

This is really just the old difference between progressives and conservatives. Progressives believe America can be great if we just change X, and Y. And criticism is allowed. Conservatives believe America was great, before we changed A and B. But no other criticism of the country is allowed. Unfortunately for them oftentimes the only things they can point to are things that have made society more equal for women/blacks/gays etc and few want to go back with them.

MrMoogle

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #782 on: October 10, 2016, 02:29:09 PM »
The focus on Bill has been somewhat confusing to me as well....
Often analogies are helpful when explaining things.  In this case, at least for some, apparently not. 

Let's try an analogy-free version: some people support Trump because, despite what he does in his personal life, they agree with his political views.

I still don't understand. What are his political views?
How about, if you disagree with the other candidate's political views and believe in a 2-party system?

And for the "Make America Great Again" and when should that be.  When I was a child, it seemed like most people were proud to be Americans.  I don't see that today, but it probably has more to me becoming an adult and not seeing things through the eyes of a child.  Both major parties want to change things, they don't seem content, and therefore want to change America.  This can be seen as they aren't proud of it.

I don't think the idea is to take us back to a time before women's suffrage or equal rights.  I think it's more, "Make You Proud to be an American (like it seemed to be in the past)."

Just like I don't think the "Black Lives Matter" movement is saying only black lives matter.  It's saying black lives also matter.

You can read into both slogans what you want.

But his slogan is completely vapid.  When was this supposed greatness, and how/why did it end? Great in what way? For a rational person to be proud of something there has to be a reason that makes sense, otherwise alliance to a geographic region is just brainwashed nationalism. Reminds me of the old joke that the difference between the Americans and the Soviets was that the Soviet people didn't believe their own propaganda..

This is really just the old difference between progressives and conservatives. Progressives believe America can be great if we just change X, and Y. And criticism is allowed. Conservatives believe America was great, before we changed A and B. But no other criticism of the country is allowed. Unfortunately for them oftentimes the only things they can point to are things that have made society more equal for women/blacks/gays etc and few want to go back with them.
I don't have concrete answers for you.  I'm trying to explain why people perceive that America was great and no longer is.  It will be different for different people.  But it still works for many people, even if they're thinking different times.  I'm guessing it's mostly when they were young, before they became aware of bigger problems.  Even personally, when they had their health and energy.

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #783 on: October 10, 2016, 02:53:24 PM »

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #784 on: October 10, 2016, 03:38:44 PM »
American is not the greatest country in the world............but it could be.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=america+is+not+greatest+country+in+world&view=detail&mid=CA3489CE3D2B4578533BCA3489CE3D2B4578533B&FORM=VIRE
In my opinion, America is the greatest country in the world, but I don't doubt that we have a higher percentage of dumbasses than many countries.

RangerOne

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #785 on: October 10, 2016, 04:22:30 PM »
American is not the greatest country in the world............but it could be.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=america+is+not+greatest+country+in+world&view=detail&mid=CA3489CE3D2B4578533BCA3489CE3D2B4578533B&FORM=VIRE
In my opinion, America is the greatest country in the world, but I don't doubt that we have a higher percentage of dumbasses than many countries.

I am pretty sure we are all about on par with dumb-asses. Britain is no better than us, and the Syrian refugee crisis is bringing out the same ugly sentiments we get here with our immigration issues and refugee crises in EU countries.

You can rank the US in different categories all over the place but overall America still seems to be viewed pretty favorably. And we are certainly still the most powerful and influential nation both fiscally and militarily though China looks to be on its way to usurping us in that role.

In intellectual circles people may whine that we don't have universal health care but I see still plenty of people moving here or excited about the opportunity to live in the US and work, even coming from Britain, France or Norway. I see a lot of fluidity among wealthy countries these days were it is pretty common to work in an office with people who have roots all over Europe and they are all perfectly happy to live here. Also we still gets people all over the world coming to get educated and do research in the US. Our grammar schools are certainly less rigorous on average than many countries but the US still holds the highest number of high rank universities in the world. And we still take the most medal in the Olympics to top it all off.

Honestly it seems our biggest embarrassment right now is the absurd number of mass shootings we deal with relative to other well off western countries. But overall violence is still down in most of our cities.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #786 on: October 10, 2016, 08:28:35 PM »
I'm not so much a Trump voter as I am an anti Hillary voter.
My reasoning is there are just too many crooked dealings that she and the Clinton Foundation are involved in.
Trump crooked dealing? I'm sure there is some.
But to get the FBI and AG to buy in, that's just wrong.

As a lifelong Republican leaning supporter, I have enjoyed seeing the implosion of the party.
I just wish the Democrats could have done so also.
Maybe then all dynasties would be crushed.

Side note...I'm in Va. a somewhat swing state. I recently drove for 2 hours to another city and I still have not seen a Hillary sign anywhere.

accolay

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #787 on: October 10, 2016, 10:50:58 PM »
I'm not so much a Trump voter as I am an anti Hillary voter.
My reasoning is there are just too many crooked dealings that she and the Clinton Foundation are involved in.
Trump crooked dealing? I'm sure there is some.
But to get the FBI and AG to buy in, that's just wrong.
...
Side note...I'm in Va. a somewhat swing state. I recently drove for 2 hours to another city and I still have not seen a Hillary sign anywhere.

I'm no huge Hilary fan, but I think you have it exactly backwards. I'll let John Oliver take it from here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Lfd1aB9YI

I'm in a Democrat state and I don't see a lot of Hilary signs either- but there is no doubt this will be a Hilary state.

accolay

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #788 on: October 10, 2016, 11:47:38 PM »

Side note...I'm in Va. a somewhat swing state. I recently drove for 2 hours to another city and I still have not seen a Hillary sign anywhere.
If anyone is curious, 538 is predicting that Virginia has a 90.4% chance of going Dem.

Popping back in to second that. MJ- you should check out more recent polls for your state. They were closer over a month ago. Not anymore. Virginia is not going to be a swing state in this election short of Beelzebub unzipping Hilary's skin and stepping out on live tv during the final debate.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #789 on: October 11, 2016, 06:12:04 AM »
Honestly it seems our biggest embarrassment right now is the absurd number of mass shootings we deal with relative to other well off western countries. But overall violence is still down in most of our cities.

I'm generally a fan of the States, and agree that there are a lot of great things about the country . . . but the biggest embarrassment that I can see (and sadly one that few Americans seem to care about at all) has to do with the US's war of terror.

America has illegally kidnapped and tortured hundreds of people, many who admittedly had nothing to do with terror.  No trial, no due process, no compensation, nobody punished for doing this.  The US is regularly performing illegal drone strikes in northern Pakistan and Afghanistan that kill civilians.  In Afghanistan, the States has a record of putting child molesters in positions of power and then ignoring the victims of the child abuse when they complain.  After all this, the US still has the temerity to criticize the human rights actions of other countries, and act disturbed when others perform similar acts of terrorism.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #790 on: October 11, 2016, 07:27:47 AM »
Honestly it seems our biggest embarrassment right now is the absurd number of mass shootings we deal with relative to other well off western countries. But overall violence is still down in most of our cities.

I'm generally a fan of the States, and agree that there are a lot of great things about the country . . . but the biggest embarrassment that I can see (and sadly one that few Americans seem to care about at all) has to do with the US's war of terror.

America has illegally kidnapped and tortured hundreds of people, many who admittedly had nothing to do with terror.  No trial, no due process, no compensation, nobody punished for doing this.  The US is regularly performing illegal drone strikes in northern Pakistan and Afghanistan that kill civilians.  In Afghanistan, the States has a record of putting child molesters in positions of power and then ignoring the victims of the child abuse when they complain.  After all this, the US still has the temerity to criticize the human rights actions of other countries, and act disturbed when others perform similar acts of terrorism.

That's the biggest embarrassment externally, from another nation's point of view, I think.

There are two big ones to me, internally:
1) What that war on terror has done to civil rights of our citizens (drones to kill our own citizens without due process, TSA and the like violating us when flying, NSA monitoring all citizens, not just ones suspected of things, etc.)

2) The war on drugs, and what that has done to our prison population.  The racial bias and unfairness of our judicial system is tied in with this as well.

Basically things tied to fear and authoritarianism.
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deadlymonkey

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #791 on: October 11, 2016, 09:34:15 AM »
Looking forward to the major channels reporting on Trump's child rape charges.  He is being sued that he raped a 13 year old multiple times.  Federal judge ruled there is enough evidence to proceed (civil not criminal).  Will he settle or go to trial?  This one is a little unique as there are witness statements corroborating the accusations.  So not a he said she said case.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #792 on: October 11, 2016, 09:40:00 AM »
Yeah, I think the Billy Bush tape was just a shot across the bow.  More is coming, probably every few days until November 8th. 

But remember, the most dangerous animal is one who is cornered. 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #793 on: October 11, 2016, 09:55:06 AM »
Looking forward to the major channels reporting on Trump's child rape charges.  He is being sued that he raped a 13 year old multiple times.  Federal judge ruled there is enough evidence to proceed (civil not criminal).  Will he settle or go to trial?  This one is a little unique as there are witness statements corroborating the accusations.  So not a he said she said case.

That one has been lurking for months, and nobody has picked it up. I don't think it'll get much traction until there's a trial or something more concrete (not that it isn't a very serious case at this stage). Putting accusations of statutory rape on blast is a big deal, and a lot of the senior editors are probably (justifiably) gun-shy.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #794 on: October 11, 2016, 10:02:19 AM »
Looking forward to the major channels reporting on Trump's child rape charges.  He is being sued that he raped a 13 year old multiple times.  Federal judge ruled there is enough evidence to proceed (civil not criminal).  Will he settle or go to trial?  This one is a little unique as there are witness statements corroborating the accusations.  So not a he said she said case.

That one has been lurking for months, and nobody has picked it up. I don't think it'll get much traction until there's a trial or something more concrete (not that it isn't a very serious case at this stage). Putting accusations of statutory rape on blast is a big deal, and a lot of the senior editors are probably (justifiably) gun-shy.

True, but since the judge just ruled that it can proceed, and not thrown out on its merits there must be something in there to give some traction...kind of like the cosby stuff.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #795 on: October 11, 2016, 10:05:03 AM »
Listening to the debate I heard Hillary Clinton's opening comments. In her flat declarative robot style she blathered an over rehearsed list of bullshit platitudes, moral superiority and preprogrammed BS.  It was so intense my mere dislike of her turned to visceral disgust.  I absolutely in that moment understood why people believed in Clinton conspiracies, no matter how ludicrous.

Then it was The Donald's turn.  The only candidate in American history to race himself to the bottom.  How could even mega douche possibly out cringe worthy Hillary's opening?  Surely he couldn't, I thought, unless he went straight to gross racial and sexual slurs. His response: something to the effect of "I agree with everything you just said." plus some empty talk.  Mission accomplished.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #796 on: October 11, 2016, 11:58:48 AM »
looking at CNN you wouldn't even guess there is a breaking news story of Russians and Trump's campaign working together to expose more Hillary slanderous emails.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #797 on: October 11, 2016, 12:11:09 PM »
looking at CNN you wouldn't even guess there is a breaking news story of Russians and Trump's campaign working together to expose more Hillary slanderous emails.

It's on NPR and Newsweek.

Summary: Trump quoted an article from Sputnik, which is Russia's government-controlled new agency, which mistakenly attributed the following quote to Sidney Blumenthal, a top Clinton advisor: "Clinton was in charge of the State Department, and it failed to protect U.S. personnel at an American consulate in Libya. If the GOP wants to raise that as a talking point against her, it is legitimate." The problem is that Blumenthal never said that: he was simply discussing an article from Newsweek by Kurt Eichenwald. Eichenwald has already rebutted the story in the link above. Sputnik removed the article when the error was pointed out, but apparently not before Trump got his hands on it.

I get the feeling that Trump and his crew are really pissed that there wasn't anything substantively damaging in the WikiLeaks release.


libertarian4321

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #798 on: October 11, 2016, 02:17:44 PM »
Stick a fork in Trump, he's done.

Barring someone finding video footage of Hillary wiring the Twin Towers with explosives in the hours before 9-11 occurred, he has NO CHANCE of winning.

He's just going to go scorched earth now, on his way to getting clobbered in November.

So I'll cast my vote for Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson knowing that I'm voting for the only decent candidate in the race (well, maybe Jill Stein is decent too, I just don't know enough about her). 

I assume Hillary will be less dangerous than expected because she will do the bidding of her Goldman Sachs masters and won't mess up the stock market.

Dems and Reps, get your stuff together in 2020.  It's okay if one major party nominates a stinker candidate, but I've never seen both parties simultaneously screw do so before...

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #799 on: October 11, 2016, 02:56:06 PM »
Stick a fork in Trump, he's done.

Barring someone finding video footage of Hillary wiring the Twin Towers with explosives in the hours before 9-11 occurred, he has NO CHANCE of winning.

He's just going to go scorched earth now, on his way to getting clobbered in November.

So I'll cast my vote for Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson knowing that I'm voting for the only decent candidate in the race (well, maybe Jill Stein is decent too, I just don't know enough about her). 


Only thing I know about Jill Stien is that she has a warrant out for her arrest in a U.S. state for vandalizing private property. Not sure how that would affect her eligibility for office.