Author Topic: Trump Voters.... why?  (Read 160251 times)

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #650 on: October 07, 2016, 12:18:37 PM »
I just don't get your point. People 200 years ago, and some of us now, believe the highest executive in the land needs to have loyalty to his country without reservation above all else. Natural born citizen seems like the best universal way to ensure that.

How does the location of your birth ensure loyalty? Is there a logical reason to be loyal to a specific area just because your mom was there at the moment of your birth? If anything the person who uprooted their life and move to America has shown more drive to want to live there. As opposed to someone who just happened to be born there and said "fine, guess I'll live here". I don't see how you can judge one as more loyal just based on their birthplace.

And is lack of loyalty really and issue in presidents? Or something we should fear? They get vetted pretty hard during the campaign, and if they do something illegal they get impeached. Are we really worried some Manchurian candidate will sell Texas to Russian behind our backs or something? What exactly is the problem?

It doesn't ensure loyalty. Note that there have been more American deaths caused by Americans (born in the US) than any foreign power or people has inflicted. Most of this is due to the Civil War. Note that Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky but that didn't stop him from splitting the country in two.

Timothy McVeigh also comes to mind. There are also plenty of "home grown" ISIS folks in the US.

The original intention, that some British or other royalty doesn't come into power from abroad, was a real concern in 1776. It doesn't apply now.
From like 1950-1990 I'm sure it was a real concern about russian spies, I'm sure some people are now worried about Muslim spies (especially Trump and his supporters). Myself, I think that you shouldn't have to be a natural born citizen, but you should have to be a U.S. citizen, and to have served the U.S. in some major way for 8 years, whether that is by being in congress, a governor, the military, etc.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #651 on: October 07, 2016, 12:21:06 PM »
I just don't get your point. People 200 years ago, and some of us now, believe the highest executive in the land needs to have loyalty to his country without reservation above all else. Natural born citizen seems like the best universal way to ensure that.

How does the location of your birth ensure loyalty? Is there a logical reason to be loyal to a specific area just because your mom was there at the moment of your birth? If anything the person who uprooted their life and move to America has shown more drive to want to live there. As opposed to someone who just happened to be born there and said "fine, guess I'll live here". I don't see how you can judge one as more loyal just based on their birthplace.

And is lack of loyalty really and issue in presidents? Or something we should fear? They get vetted pretty hard during the campaign, and if they do something illegal they get impeached. Are we really worried some Manchurian candidate will sell Texas to Russian behind our backs or something? What exactly is the problem?

It doesn't ensure loyalty. Note that there have been more American deaths caused by Americans (born in the US) than any foreign power or people has inflicted. Most of this is due to the Civil War. Note that Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky but that didn't stop him from splitting the country in two.

Timothy McVeigh also comes to mind. There are also plenty of "home grown" ISIS folks in the US.

The original intention, that some British or other royalty doesn't come into power from abroad, was a real concern in 1776. It doesn't apply now.
From like 1950-1990 I'm sure it was a real concern about russian spies, I'm sure some people are now worried about Muslim spies (especially Trump and his supporters). Myself, I think that you shouldn't have to be a natural born citizen, but you should have to be a U.S. citizen, and to have served the U.S. in some major way for 8 years, whether that is by being in congress, a governor, the military, etc.

So you want to reject Trump out of hand?

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #652 on: October 07, 2016, 12:23:50 PM »
I just don't get your point. People 200 years ago, and some of us now, believe the highest executive in the land needs to have loyalty to his country without reservation above all else. Natural born citizen seems like the best universal way to ensure that.

How does the location of your birth ensure loyalty? Is there a logical reason to be loyal to a specific area just because your mom was there at the moment of your birth? If anything the person who uprooted their life and move to America has shown more drive to want to live there. As opposed to someone who just happened to be born there and said "fine, guess I'll live here". I don't see how you can judge one as more loyal just based on their birthplace.

And is lack of loyalty really and issue in presidents? Or something we should fear? They get vetted pretty hard during the campaign, and if they do something illegal they get impeached. Are we really worried some Manchurian candidate will sell Texas to Russian behind our backs or something? What exactly is the problem?

It doesn't ensure loyalty. Note that there have been more American deaths caused by Americans (born in the US) than any foreign power or people has inflicted. Most of this is due to the Civil War. Note that Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky but that didn't stop him from splitting the country in two.

Timothy McVeigh also comes to mind. There are also plenty of "home grown" ISIS folks in the US.

The original intention, that some British or other royalty doesn't come into power from abroad, was a real concern in 1776. It doesn't apply now.
From like 1950-1990 I'm sure it was a real concern about russian spies, I'm sure some people are now worried about Muslim spies (especially Trump and his supporters). Myself, I think that you shouldn't have to be a natural born citizen, but you should have to be a U.S. citizen, and to have served the U.S. in some major way for 8 years, whether that is by being in congress, a governor, the military, etc.

So you want to reject Trump out of hand?
Do I want to reject Trump out of hand? YES! I want to reject him every way possible.

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #653 on: October 07, 2016, 12:29:40 PM »
Back to the thread... can a Trump supporter please let me know when America was "great" and why we want to return to that time? Please provide a specific year or decade you would like to be in rather than the present.
Just guessing, but probably whenever Bill Clinton had in mind when he used that phrase. ;)

Midwest

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #654 on: October 07, 2016, 12:33:42 PM »
I just don't get your point. People 200 years ago, and some of us now, believe the highest executive in the land needs to have loyalty to his country without reservation above all else. Natural born citizen seems like the best universal way to ensure that.

How does the location of your birth ensure loyalty? Is there a logical reason to be loyal to a specific area just because your mom was there at the moment of your birth? If anything the person who uprooted their life and move to America has shown more drive to want to live there. As opposed to someone who just happened to be born there and said "fine, guess I'll live here". I don't see how you can judge one as more loyal just based on their birthplace.

And is lack of loyalty really and issue in presidents? Or something we should fear? They get vetted pretty hard during the campaign, and if they do something illegal they get impeached. Are we really worried some Manchurian candidate will sell Texas to Russian behind our backs or something? What exactly is the problem?

It doesn't ensure loyalty. Note that there have been more American deaths caused by Americans (born in the US) than any foreign power or people has inflicted. Most of this is due to the Civil War. Note that Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky but that didn't stop him from splitting the country in two.

Timothy McVeigh also comes to mind. There are also plenty of "home grown" ISIS folks in the US.

The original intention, that some British or other royalty doesn't come into power from abroad, was a real concern in 1776. It doesn't apply now.
From like 1950-1990 I'm sure it was a real concern about russian spies, I'm sure some people are now worried about Muslim spies (especially Trump and his supporters). Myself, I think that you shouldn't have to be a natural born citizen, but you should have to be a U.S. citizen, and to have served the U.S. in some major way for 8 years, whether that is by being in congress, a governor, the military, etc.

I would think being a politician for more than 8 years would be a disqualification.  As far as the requirement to be a natural born citizen requirement, we have plenty of qualified candidates who meet the qualification.  I see no need to expand.  Somehow in this election, we managed to pick two awful candidates, but not a reason to change the system.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #655 on: October 07, 2016, 12:40:42 PM »
I just don't get your point. People 200 years ago, and some of us now, believe the highest executive in the land needs to have loyalty to his country without reservation above all else. Natural born citizen seems like the best universal way to ensure that.

How does the location of your birth ensure loyalty? Is there a logical reason to be loyal to a specific area just because your mom was there at the moment of your birth? If anything the person who uprooted their life and move to America has shown more drive to want to live there. As opposed to someone who just happened to be born there and said "fine, guess I'll live here". I don't see how you can judge one as more loyal just based on their birthplace.

And is lack of loyalty really and issue in presidents? Or something we should fear? They get vetted pretty hard during the campaign, and if they do something illegal they get impeached. Are we really worried some Manchurian candidate will sell Texas to Russian behind our backs or something? What exactly is the problem?

It doesn't ensure loyalty. Note that there have been more American deaths caused by Americans (born in the US) than any foreign power or people has inflicted. Most of this is due to the Civil War. Note that Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky but that didn't stop him from splitting the country in two.

Timothy McVeigh also comes to mind. There are also plenty of "home grown" ISIS folks in the US.

The original intention, that some British or other royalty doesn't come into power from abroad, was a real concern in 1776. It doesn't apply now.
From like 1950-1990 I'm sure it was a real concern about russian spies, I'm sure some people are now worried about Muslim spies (especially Trump and his supporters). Myself, I think that you shouldn't have to be a natural born citizen, but you should have to be a U.S. citizen, and to have served the U.S. in some major way for 8 years, whether that is by being in congress, a governor, the military, etc.

I would think being a politician for more than 8 years would be a disqualification. 

This always baffles me so much. It's not that politicians are all great people or anything... but for what other profession would significant numbers of people say with a straight face that one of the qualifications they would like to see is someone who has little to no experience in the job?
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Midwest

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #656 on: October 07, 2016, 12:54:03 PM »
I just don't get your point. People 200 years ago, and some of us now, believe the highest executive in the land needs to have loyalty to his country without reservation above all else. Natural born citizen seems like the best universal way to ensure that.

How does the location of your birth ensure loyalty? Is there a logical reason to be loyal to a specific area just because your mom was there at the moment of your birth? If anything the person who uprooted their life and move to America has shown more drive to want to live there. As opposed to someone who just happened to be born there and said "fine, guess I'll live here". I don't see how you can judge one as more loyal just based on their birthplace.

And is lack of loyalty really and issue in presidents? Or something we should fear? They get vetted pretty hard during the campaign, and if they do something illegal they get impeached. Are we really worried some Manchurian candidate will sell Texas to Russian behind our backs or something? What exactly is the problem?

It doesn't ensure loyalty. Note that there have been more American deaths caused by Americans (born in the US) than any foreign power or people has inflicted. Most of this is due to the Civil War. Note that Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky but that didn't stop him from splitting the country in two.

Timothy McVeigh also comes to mind. There are also plenty of "home grown" ISIS folks in the US.

The original intention, that some British or other royalty doesn't come into power from abroad, was a real concern in 1776. It doesn't apply now.
From like 1950-1990 I'm sure it was a real concern about russian spies, I'm sure some people are now worried about Muslim spies (especially Trump and his supporters). Myself, I think that you shouldn't have to be a natural born citizen, but you should have to be a U.S. citizen, and to have served the U.S. in some major way for 8 years, whether that is by being in congress, a governor, the military, etc.

I would think being a politician for more than 8 years would be a disqualification. 

This always baffles me so much. It's not that politicians are all great people or anything... but for what other profession would significant numbers of people say with a straight face that one of the qualifications they would like to see is someone who has little to no experience in the job?

I would think a CEO or business leader could govern quite well with little govt experience and might shake things up in a good way.  FYI, I'm not thinking of Trump in this comment.

PS - I was being somewhat sarcastic in the response but lack of govt experience shouldn't be an automatic disqualification. 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 12:57:51 PM by Midwest »

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #657 on: October 07, 2016, 01:01:19 PM »
I would think a CEO or business leader could govern quite well with little govt experience and might shake things up in a good way.  FYI, I'm not thinking of Trump in this comment.

This seems to be brought out frequently. But businesses are usually run as dictatorships, maybe including a few board members. Politics are about negotiation, compromise and convincing others (at least ideally). Not necessarily something CEOs do well. Part of the reason the tea party folks that got elected caused such havoc; they were uncompromising ideologues who would rather stall everything than give an inch on anything. "my way or burn it all down".

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #658 on: October 07, 2016, 01:10:28 PM »
I just don't get your point. People 200 years ago, and some of us now, believe the highest executive in the land needs to have loyalty to his country without reservation above all else. Natural born citizen seems like the best universal way to ensure that.

How does the location of your birth ensure loyalty? Is there a logical reason to be loyal to a specific area just because your mom was there at the moment of your birth? If anything the person who uprooted their life and move to America has shown more drive to want to live there. As opposed to someone who just happened to be born there and said "fine, guess I'll live here". I don't see how you can judge one as more loyal just based on their birthplace.

And is lack of loyalty really and issue in presidents? Or something we should fear? They get vetted pretty hard during the campaign, and if they do something illegal they get impeached. Are we really worried some Manchurian candidate will sell Texas to Russian behind our backs or something? What exactly is the problem?

It doesn't ensure loyalty. Note that there have been more American deaths caused by Americans (born in the US) than any foreign power or people has inflicted. Most of this is due to the Civil War. Note that Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky but that didn't stop him from splitting the country in two.

Timothy McVeigh also comes to mind. There are also plenty of "home grown" ISIS folks in the US.

The original intention, that some British or other royalty doesn't come into power from abroad, was a real concern in 1776. It doesn't apply now.
From like 1950-1990 I'm sure it was a real concern about russian spies, I'm sure some people are now worried about Muslim spies (especially Trump and his supporters). Myself, I think that you shouldn't have to be a natural born citizen, but you should have to be a U.S. citizen, and to have served the U.S. in some major way for 8 years, whether that is by being in congress, a governor, the military, etc.

I would think being a politician for more than 8 years would be a disqualification.
You're entitled to that opinion, but I think a requirement of serving our country for 8 years before becoming it's leader, and becoming the most powerful person in the world, is fair. I don't even like hiring a full time employee without hiring them as an intern or part time for at least 6 months... Because once they are full time you are stuck with them unless they do something terrible.

Midwest

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #659 on: October 07, 2016, 01:10:35 PM »
I would think a CEO or business leader could govern quite well with little govt experience and might shake things up in a good way.  FYI, I'm not thinking of Trump in this comment.

This seems to be brought out frequently. But businesses are usually run as dictatorships, maybe including a few board members. Politics are about negotiation, compromise and convincing others (at least ideally). Not necessarily something CEOs do well. Part of the reason the tea party folks that got elected caused such havoc; they were uncompromising ideologues who would rather stall everything than give an inch on anything. "my way or burn it all down".
 

Business entities (especially large ones) require significant negotiation and cooperation.  You answer to the board, shareholders and customers.  With regard to the lack of cooperation in the last 6 years, that's not all the tea party.  Bill Clinton knew how to reach across the aisle, Obama seems to have difficulty doing so. 

Midwest

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #660 on: October 07, 2016, 01:12:58 PM »
I just don't get your point. People 200 years ago, and some of us now, believe the highest executive in the land needs to have loyalty to his country without reservation above all else. Natural born citizen seems like the best universal way to ensure that.

How does the location of your birth ensure loyalty? Is there a logical reason to be loyal to a specific area just because your mom was there at the moment of your birth? If anything the person who uprooted their life and move to America has shown more drive to want to live there. As opposed to someone who just happened to be born there and said "fine, guess I'll live here". I don't see how you can judge one as more loyal just based on their birthplace.

And is lack of loyalty really and issue in presidents? Or something we should fear? They get vetted pretty hard during the campaign, and if they do something illegal they get impeached. Are we really worried some Manchurian candidate will sell Texas to Russian behind our backs or something? What exactly is the problem?

It doesn't ensure loyalty. Note that there have been more American deaths caused by Americans (born in the US) than any foreign power or people has inflicted. Most of this is due to the Civil War. Note that Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky but that didn't stop him from splitting the country in two.

Timothy McVeigh also comes to mind. There are also plenty of "home grown" ISIS folks in the US.

The original intention, that some British or other royalty doesn't come into power from abroad, was a real concern in 1776. It doesn't apply now.
From like 1950-1990 I'm sure it was a real concern about russian spies, I'm sure some people are now worried about Muslim spies (especially Trump and his supporters). Myself, I think that you shouldn't have to be a natural born citizen, but you should have to be a U.S. citizen, and to have served the U.S. in some major way for 8 years, whether that is by being in congress, a governor, the military, etc.

I would think being a politician for more than 8 years would be a disqualification.
You're entitled to that opinion, but I think a requirement of serving our country for 8 years before becoming it's leader, and becoming the most powerful person in the world, is fair. I don't even like hiring a full time employee without hiring them as an intern or part time for at least 6 months... Because once they are full time you are stuck with them unless they do something terrible.

Jeremy - Let the voters decide on that score.  The voters seem to be deciding against Trump.  If the polls are wrong on Trump, he'll only be a winner because voters think Hillary is actually a worse candidate than he is. 

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #661 on: October 07, 2016, 01:16:35 PM »
I just don't get your point. People 200 years ago, and some of us now, believe the highest executive in the land needs to have loyalty to his country without reservation above all else. Natural born citizen seems like the best universal way to ensure that.

How does the location of your birth ensure loyalty? Is there a logical reason to be loyal to a specific area just because your mom was there at the moment of your birth? If anything the person who uprooted their life and move to America has shown more drive to want to live there. As opposed to someone who just happened to be born there and said "fine, guess I'll live here". I don't see how you can judge one as more loyal just based on their birthplace.

And is lack of loyalty really and issue in presidents? Or something we should fear? They get vetted pretty hard during the campaign, and if they do something illegal they get impeached. Are we really worried some Manchurian candidate will sell Texas to Russian behind our backs or something? What exactly is the problem?

It doesn't ensure loyalty. Note that there have been more American deaths caused by Americans (born in the US) than any foreign power or people has inflicted. Most of this is due to the Civil War. Note that Jefferson Davis was born in Kentucky but that didn't stop him from splitting the country in two.

Timothy McVeigh also comes to mind. There are also plenty of "home grown" ISIS folks in the US.

The original intention, that some British or other royalty doesn't come into power from abroad, was a real concern in 1776. It doesn't apply now.
From like 1950-1990 I'm sure it was a real concern about russian spies, I'm sure some people are now worried about Muslim spies (especially Trump and his supporters). Myself, I think that you shouldn't have to be a natural born citizen, but you should have to be a U.S. citizen, and to have served the U.S. in some major way for 8 years, whether that is by being in congress, a governor, the military, etc.

I would think being a politician for more than 8 years would be a disqualification.
You're entitled to that opinion, but I think a requirement of serving our country for 8 years before becoming it's leader, and becoming the most powerful person in the world, is fair. I don't even like hiring a full time employee without hiring them as an intern or part time for at least 6 months... Because once they are full time you are stuck with them unless they do something terrible.

Jeremy - Let the voters decide on that score.  The voters seem to be deciding against Trump.  If the polls are wrong on Trump, he'll only be a winner because voters think Hillary is actually a worse candidate than he is.
I'm talking about amending the actual qualifications to be president, not Trump specifically.
Trump is unqualified for many reasons regardless of whether or not he served our country.

jrhampt

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #662 on: October 07, 2016, 01:39:00 PM »
I would think a CEO or business leader could govern quite well with little govt experience and might shake things up in a good way.  FYI, I'm not thinking of Trump in this comment.

This seems to be brought out frequently. But businesses are usually run as dictatorships, maybe including a few board members. Politics are about negotiation, compromise and convincing others (at least ideally). Not necessarily something CEOs do well. Part of the reason the tea party folks that got elected caused such havoc; they were uncompromising ideologues who would rather stall everything than give an inch on anything. "my way or burn it all down".
 

Business entities (especially large ones) require significant negotiation and cooperation.  You answer to the board, shareholders and customers.  With regard to the lack of cooperation in the last 6 years, that's not all the tea party.  Bill Clinton knew how to reach across the aisle, Obama seems to have difficulty doing so.
Obama had a lot less political experience than Clinton, which might have had something to do with it.

Midwest

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #663 on: October 07, 2016, 01:45:20 PM »
I would think a CEO or business leader could govern quite well with little govt experience and might shake things up in a good way.  FYI, I'm not thinking of Trump in this comment.

This seems to be brought out frequently. But businesses are usually run as dictatorships, maybe including a few board members. Politics are about negotiation, compromise and convincing others (at least ideally). Not necessarily something CEOs do well. Part of the reason the tea party folks that got elected caused such havoc; they were uncompromising ideologues who would rather stall everything than give an inch on anything. "my way or burn it all down".
 

Business entities (especially large ones) require significant negotiation and cooperation.  You answer to the board, shareholders and customers.  With regard to the lack of cooperation in the last 6 years, that's not all the tea party.  Bill Clinton knew how to reach across the aisle, Obama seems to have difficulty doing so.
Obama had a lot less political experience than Clinton, which might have had something to do with it.

Obama had a lot less experience in general.  Clinton was an attorney general and a governor but not a lifetime politician when he ran for President.

As I said, I was making light of the suggestion, not necessarily excluding all politicians.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #664 on: October 07, 2016, 06:00:52 PM »
I would think a CEO or business leader could govern quite well with little govt experience and might shake things up in a good way.  FYI, I'm not thinking of Trump in this comment.

This seems to be brought out frequently. But businesses are usually run as dictatorships, maybe including a few board members. Politics are about negotiation, compromise and convincing others (at least ideally). Not necessarily something CEOs do well. Part of the reason the tea party folks that got elected caused such havoc; they were uncompromising ideologues who would rather stall everything than give an inch on anything. "my way or burn it all down".
 

Business entities (especially large ones) require significant negotiation and cooperation.  You answer to the board, shareholders and customers.  With regard to the lack of cooperation in the last 6 years, that's not all the tea party.  Bill Clinton knew how to reach across the aisle, Obama seems to have difficulty doing so.
Obama had a lot less political experience than Clinton, which might have had something to do with it.
Also, remember back in the halcyon days of January 2009 when Senator McConnell and john Boehner said their goal was to obstruct anything in Obama's agenda?
 http://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/the-gops-no-compromise-pledge-044311
I hear that is a really good example of reaching across the aisle. That they then blame it on Obama is simply a natural extension of that political policy. Most recently, this is evidenced by McConnell blaming Obama for not explaining adequately why the 911-lawsuit bill was so bad... after Obama had vetoed it and McConnell led the veto override, followed by 0h-shit-this-bill-is-terrible-and-we-better-fix-it-fast. Seriously.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/29/politics/obama-911-veto-congressional-concerns/index.html

The mission of the modern GOP appears to be dysfunction, not governance.
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

ender

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #665 on: October 07, 2016, 06:14:49 PM »
This always baffles me so much. It's not that politicians are all great people or anything... but for what other profession would significant numbers of people say with a straight face that one of the qualifications they would like to see is someone who has little to no experience in the job?

In my industry, experience in related but not the same jobs can be hugely valuable. In many ways the more companies you are part of the better your ability to synthesize solutions and see new ways of doing things. Diverse experiences over your career can benefit you and make you considerably more effective.

Someone who works at the same company for 20 years can easily become far less employable than someone who has worked at four companies for five years each.

Whether this applies to politics and someone being "part of the political machine" for their entire career or not is a question I don't have a definite answer to, but I don't think that it is entirely ridiculous to believe other experiences would benefit someone running for president than exclusively political positions within the same "company."

dividendman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #666 on: October 07, 2016, 06:36:57 PM »
Do Any Trump supporters want to defend this 2005 tape of Trump, besides being pretty lewd, is basically is bragging about groping random women?

Isn't that sexual assault?

Also trying hard to fuck married women while you're married shouldn't attract his base of Christian conservatives should it?

Hotstreak

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #667 on: October 07, 2016, 06:47:08 PM »
Isn't that sexual assault?



Yes.  Grabbing a woman "by the pussy" is sexual assault.

sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #668 on: October 07, 2016, 06:50:58 PM »
Do Any Trump supporters want to defend this 2005 tape of Trump,

I'm sure this lady will:


Pigeon

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #669 on: October 07, 2016, 07:02:38 PM »
Time for Pence to make an official statement that Trump has never used demeaning language about women.  That should do it.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #670 on: October 07, 2016, 07:06:35 PM »
2005? Was HRC still homophobic back then?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #671 on: October 07, 2016, 07:13:24 PM »
Isn't that sexual assault?



Yes.  Grabbing a woman "by the pussy" is sexual assault.

Grabbing anyone, anywhere, unless for the express purpose of pulling them out of imminent death, is assault.

Sadly, if Trump were to be elected, he would not be the first President of the USA who has sexually assaulted women.
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dividendman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #672 on: October 07, 2016, 07:14:39 PM »
Isn't that sexual assault?



Yes.  Grabbing a woman "by the pussy" is sexual assault.

Grabbing anyone, anywhere, unless for the express purpose of pulling them out of imminent death, is assault.

Sadly, if Trump were to be elected, he would not be the first President of the USA who has sexually assaulted women.

Probably the first one to brag about it in public though.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #673 on: October 07, 2016, 07:17:51 PM »
2005? Was HRC still homophobic back then?

How is attacking the opposing candidate a reasonable response to a terrible thing one candidate did?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #674 on: October 07, 2016, 07:23:15 PM »
2005? Was HRC still homophobic back then?

How is attacking the opposing candidate a reasonable response to a terrible thing one candidate did?

Have you been watching this election AT ALL?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #675 on: October 07, 2016, 07:23:33 PM »
Well considering it happens in every other thread and the mods claim they have no bias I thought it was fair game. Is it only ok if you are ripping Republicans?

Apparently we have not wandered enough off topic for a mod to lock it yet. Because that's the rule, right?

The bias is so apparent. Just be honest about it.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #676 on: October 07, 2016, 07:24:29 PM »
2005? Was HRC still homophobic back then?

How is attacking the opposing candidate a reasonable response to a terrible thing one candidate did?

Also...
1)this is a false equivalency, being a homophobe is not and was not a crime
2)Clinton is more progressive on homksexual rights than Trump

Finally... I need a Trump voter to just explain to me, especially those with sisters, daughters, wives, how you tell them that you're voting for someone who thinks he can grab them "by the pussy" because he is a star?

I really am lost here.

2buttons

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #677 on: October 07, 2016, 07:26:18 PM »
Do you want me to pull up the video where your candidate flat out says she is against gay marriage?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #678 on: October 07, 2016, 07:29:23 PM »
2005? Was HRC still homophobic back then?

How is attacking the opposing candidate a reasonable response to a terrible thing one candidate did?

Please. While 2 wrongs don't make a right - let's not pretend that most here don't immediately use this same tactic when people attack Clinton.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 07:32:21 PM by idontknow »

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #679 on: October 07, 2016, 07:39:10 PM »

Probably the first one to brag about it in public whose private bragging had been made publicthough.

FTFY.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #680 on: October 07, 2016, 07:55:07 PM »
Do you want me to pull up the video where your candidate flat out says she is against gay marriage?


Here you go. 1:20 in this video "I would prefer that they [supreme court justices] stand against [gay marriage]."

https://youtu.be/3HZimsOVnKc


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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #681 on: October 07, 2016, 07:59:03 PM »
2005? Was HRC still homophobic back then?

How is attacking the opposing candidate a reasonable response to a terrible thing one candidate did?

Have you been watching this election AT ALL?

Yeah, I mean, I just don't know why it has to happen here.

Well considering it happens in every other thread and the mods claim they have no bias I thought it was fair game. Is it only ok if you are ripping Republicans?

Apparently we have not wandered enough off topic for a mod to lock it yet. Because that's the rule, right?

The bias is so apparent. Just be honest about it.

I'm on the record as saying I could never vote for Hillary.  I've ranted about many things I don't like about her.

But answering a "Trump did this in 2005, it's pretty terrible" with "But Hillary did THIS in 2005" isn't a good response.  Acknowledge the terrible thing Trump did.  Feel free to bring up Hillary's terrible things in her thread, and hopefully the other side will be honest enough to acknowledge those valid complaints, too.

The critique of Hillary being anti-gay marriage is legitimate. It being an example of how she changes her positions to whatever's popular is valid.  It as a response to "Trump said X" is not.

Maybe you see a bias there, and that's fine.  I don't feel I'm biased for or against a particular candidate, just against stupid tactics when discussing things online.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #682 on: October 07, 2016, 08:00:44 PM »
2005? Was HRC still homophobic back then?

How is attacking the opposing candidate a reasonable response to a terrible thing one candidate did?

Also...
1)this is a false equivalency, being a homophobe is not and was not a crime
2)Clinton is more progressive on homksexual rights than Trump

Finally... I need a Trump voter to just explain to me, especially those with sisters, daughters, wives, how you tell them that you're voting for someone who thinks he can grab them "by the pussy" because he is a star?

I really am lost here.

Not really. 2005 wasn't that long ago. We're not tLking about 1985 when Clinton was involved in ar politics.. Peter thiel a  the RNC convention wasn't that long ago.

As to women amd trump; most of you on here know well enough every human, much less a politician hA said something so.etime that was inappropriat, kids da surprised this didn't come up earlier. Hrcs anti gay right position, however is an on going political position that only recenfly changed. You know who your candidate is.

hoping2retire35

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #683 on: October 07, 2016, 08:04:28 PM »
2005? Was HRC still homophobic back then?

How is attacking the opposing candidate a reasonable response to a terrible thing one candidate did?

Have you been watching this election AT ALL?

Yeah, I mean, I just don't know why it has to happen here.

Well considering it happens in every other thread and the mods claim they have no bias I thought it was fair game. Is it only ok if you are ripping Republicans?

Apparently we have not wandered enough off topic for a mod to lock it yet. Because that's the rule, right?

The bias is so apparent. Just be honest about it.

I'm on the record as saying I could never vote for Hillary.  I've ranted about many things I don't like about her.

But answering a "Trump did this in 2005, it's pretty terrible" with "But Hillary did THIS in 2005" isn't a good response.  Acknowledge the terrible thing Trump did.  Feel free to bring up Hillary's terrible things in her thread, and hopefully the other side will be honest enough to acknowledge those valid complaints, too.

The critique of Hillary being anti-gay marriage is legitimate. It being an example of how she changes her positions to whatever's popular is valid.  It as a response to "Trump said X" is not.

Maybe you see a bias there, and that's fine.  I don't feel I'm biased for or against a particular candidate, just against stupid tactics when discussing things online.

Makes sense

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #684 on: October 07, 2016, 08:15:55 PM »
Finally... I need a Trump voter to just explain to me, especially those with sisters, daughters, wives, how you tell them that you're voting for someone who thinks he can grab them "by the pussy" because he is a star?
Can't help you there.  Of course, I couldn't explain how one could vote for Bill Clinton given what he did with a young intern.

I suspect both Trump's and (Bill) Clinton's supporters just figure "I like his politics better than the alternative, so I'll just overlook those annoying personal foibles."

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #685 on: October 07, 2016, 08:24:10 PM »
Finally... I need a Trump voter to just explain to me, especially those with sisters, daughters, wives, how you tell them that you're voting for someone who thinks he can grab them "by the pussy" because he is a star?
Can't help you there.  Of course, I couldn't explain how one could vote for Bill Clinton given what he did with a young intern.

I suspect both Trump's and (Bill) Clinton's supporters just figure "I like his politics better than the alternative, so I'll just overlook those annoying personal foibles."

Probably true for every voter everywhere. At some point everyone has to make a concession when they vote for another person; I find it very unlikely that someone would like ever single thought and action and position of another person enough to hold them up as 'flawless' candidate. Sadly, in this election in particular, there are much bigger compromises to be made when voting for any of the candidates than many would like...
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sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #686 on: October 07, 2016, 08:26:54 PM »
I suspect both Trump's and (Bill) Clinton's supporters just figure "I like his politics better than the alternative, so I'll just overlook those annoying personal foibles."

That's probably a fair assessment, for a significant portion of the voting public.  They vote for policies they like, as represented by people they like less.

In that respect, the Obama years have been a welcome respite from decades of the white house being used as a frat house.  Whether or not you agree with Obama's politics, you have to admit that he at least carried the office with a modicum of decorum.

I'm trying not to imagine a Trump presidency occupying the white house. 

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #687 on: October 07, 2016, 08:31:08 PM »
I'm trying not to imagine a Trump presidency occupying the white house.
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GoConfidently

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #688 on: October 07, 2016, 09:36:26 PM »
Hilary's change in regards to same sax marriage is completely different than Trump's endless attack on women. Her change reflects the change that happened in our society. Whether she actually believes in what she says or not on the subject, she's reflecting the shifting viewpoint of the Democratic Party at large by embracing same sex marriage, and hers is a change from exclusion to inclusion. Did it come too late? Probably. Does it show some inconsistency? No more than any other human being who ages and changes their mind on an issue that doesn't directly impact them.

Trump's comments about Rosie O'Donnell, Miss Universe, all the women he grabbed by the pussy and kissed against their will, his co-workers and contestants on the reality show, and even his own daughter are disgusting and he continued to defend them after being criticized. He is a dangerous man who brags about assaulting women. He tried to incite NRA members to take matters into their own hands regarding this election. How anyone at all, much less the "Christian" right, could even begin to defend this man is an exercise in cognitive dissonance. You can not trust someone to uphold the rights of citizens if he brags about violating the rights of women and assaulting them.

I know there are a lot of people who don't identify as feminist, who think that feminists make up stories to scare-monger others into supporting equal rights, who think if women would just stop whining and work harder they could earn $1 for $1 what men earn. But when a man chosen to run for the highest office in our nation says the things he says about women, how can you deny that we still have a problem with equality? And I'm not even getting into race issues. He's a problem on so many levels. I wouldn't care if he was actually a successful businessman and had enough money to erase the national debt, he would never ever ever get my vote. And not because I'm a woman, and a daughter, and have a mother and sisters. Because I'm a fucking human being and he's vile and dangerous to everyone who isn't just like him.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 10:18:02 AM by GoConfidently »

Metric Mouse

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #689 on: October 07, 2016, 09:41:55 PM »
I'm trying not to imagine a Trump presidency occupying the white house.
It's easy = the Playboy mansion with Nukes

'Murica!
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Nick_Miller

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #690 on: October 07, 2016, 09:58:01 PM »
Oooooh the Trump recorded statement is due out soon.

My expectations are low.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #691 on: October 08, 2016, 03:39:14 AM »
Hilary's change in regards to same sax marriage is completely different than Trump's endless attack on women. Her change reflects the change that happened in our society. Whether she actually believes in what she says or not on the subject, she's reflecting the shifting viewpoint of the Democratic Party at large by embracing same sex marriage, and hers is a change from exclusion to inclusion. Did it come too late? Probably. Does it show some inconsistency? No more than any other human being who ages and changes their mind on an issue that doesn't directly impact them. Trump's comments about Rosie O'Donnell, Miss Universe, all the women he grabbed by the pussy and kissed against their will, his co-workers and contestants on the reality show, and even his own daughter are disgusting and he continued to defend them after being criticized. He is a dangerous man who brags about assaulting women. He tried to incite NRA members to take matters into their own hands regarding this election. How anyone at all, much less the "Christian" right, could even begin to defend this man is an exercise in cognitive dissonance. You can not trust someone to uphold the rights of citizens if he brags about violating the rights of women and assaulting them. I know there are a lot of people who don't identify as feminist, who think that feminists make up stories to scare-monger others into supporting equal rights, who think if women would just stop whining and work harder they could earn $1 for $1 what men earn. But when a man chosen to run for the highest office in our nation says the things he says about women, how can you deny that we still have a problem with equality? And I'm not even getting into race issues. He's a problem on so many levels. I wouldn't care if he was actually a successful businessman and had enough money to erase the national debt, he would never ever ever get my vote. And not because I'm a woman, and a daughter, and have a mother and sisters. Because I'm a fucking human being and he's vile and dangerous to everyone who isn't just like him.
Wow!  Maybe use some paragraphs?  Having a hard time even reading this chunk of text.
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GuitarStv

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #692 on: October 08, 2016, 06:49:01 AM »
Hilary's change in regards to same sax marriage is completely different than Trump's endless attack on women. Her change reflects the change that happened in our society. Whether she actually believes in what she says or not on the subject, she's reflecting the shifting viewpoint of the Democratic Party at large by embracing same sex marriage, and hers is a change from exclusion to inclusion. Did it come too late? Probably. Does it show some inconsistency? No more than any other human being who ages and changes their mind on an issue that doesn't directly impact them. Trump's comments about Rosie O'Donnell, Miss Universe, all the women he grabbed by the pussy and kissed against their will, his co-workers and contestants on the reality show, and even his own daughter are disgusting and he continued to defend them after being criticized. He is a dangerous man who brags about assaulting women. He tried to incite NRA members to take matters into their own hands regarding this election. How anyone at all, much less the "Christian" right, could even begin to defend this man is an exercise in cognitive dissonance. You can not trust someone to uphold the rights of citizens if he brags about violating the rights of women and assaulting them. I know there are a lot of people who don't identify as feminist, who think that feminists make up stories to scare-monger others into supporting equal rights, who think if women would just stop whining and work harder they could earn $1 for $1 what men earn. But when a man chosen to run for the highest office in our nation says the things he says about women, how can you deny that we still have a problem with equality? And I'm not even getting into race issues. He's a problem on so many levels. I wouldn't care if he was actually a successful businessman and had enough money to erase the national debt, he would never ever ever get my vote. And not because I'm a woman, and a daughter, and have a mother and sisters. Because I'm a fucking human being and he's vile and dangerous to everyone who isn't just like him.
Wow!  Maybe use some paragraphs?  Having a hard time even reading this chunk of text.

It's actually not a post, it's one of those magic eye images.  Just defocus your eyes a bit . . .

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #693 on: October 08, 2016, 07:26:26 AM »
Hilary's change in regards to same sax marriage is completely different than Trump's endless attack on women. Her change reflects the change that happened in our society. Whether she actually believes in what she says or not on the subject, she's reflecting the shifting viewpoint of the Democratic Party at large by embracing same sex marriage, and hers is a change from exclusion to inclusion. Did it come too late? Probably. Does it show some inconsistency? No more than any other human being who ages and changes their mind on an issue that doesn't directly impact them. Trump's comments about Rosie O'Donnell, Miss Universe, all the women he grabbed by the pussy and kissed against their will, his co-workers and contestants on the reality show, and even his own daughter are disgusting and he continued to defend them after being criticized. He is a dangerous man who brags about assaulting women. He tried to incite NRA members to take matters into their own hands regarding this election. How anyone at all, much less the "Christian" right, could even begin to defend this man is an exercise in cognitive dissonance. You can not trust someone to uphold the rights of citizens if he brags about violating the rights of women and assaulting them. I know there are a lot of people who don't identify as feminist, who think that feminists make up stories to scare-monger others into supporting equal rights, who think if women would just stop whining and work harder they could earn $1 for $1 what men earn. But when a man chosen to run for the highest office in our nation says the things he says about women, how can you deny that we still have a problem with equality? And I'm not even getting into race issues. He's a problem on so many levels. I wouldn't care if he was actually a successful businessman and had enough money to erase the national debt, he would never ever ever get my vote. And not because I'm a woman, and a daughter, and have a mother and sisters. Because I'm a fucking human being and he's vile and dangerous to everyone who isn't just like him.
Wow!  Maybe use some paragraphs?  Having a hard time even reading this chunk of text.

It's actually not a post, it's one of those magic eye images.  Just defocus your eyes a bit . . .
Ahh, yes, now I see it...
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purple monkey

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #694 on: October 08, 2016, 09:13:26 AM »
Hilary's change in regards to same sax marriage is completely different than Trump's endless attack on women. Her change reflects the change that happened in our society. Whether she actually believes in what she says or not on the subject, she's reflecting the shifting viewpoint of the Democratic Party at large by embracing same sex marriage, and hers is a change from exclusion to inclusion. Did it come too late? Probably. Does it show some inconsistency? No more than any other human being who ages and changes their mind on an issue that doesn't directly impact them. Trump's comments about Rosie O'Donnell, Miss Universe, all the women he grabbed by the pussy and kissed against their will, his co-workers and contestants on the reality show, and even his own daughter are disgusting and he continued to defend them after being criticized. He is a dangerous man who brags about assaulting women. He tried to incite NRA members to take matters into their own hands regarding this election. How anyone at all, much less the "Christian" right, could even begin to defend this man is an exercise in cognitive dissonance. You can not trust someone to uphold the rights of citizens if he brags about violating the rights of women and assaulting them. I know there are a lot of people who don't identify as feminist, who think that feminists make up stories to scare-monger others into supporting equal rights, who think if women would just stop whining and work harder they could earn $1 for $1 what men earn. But when a man chosen to run for the highest office in our nation says the things he says about women, how can you deny that we still have a problem with equality? And I'm not even getting into race issues. He's a problem on so many levels. I wouldn't care if he was actually a successful businessman and had enough money to erase the national debt, he would never ever ever get my vote. And not because I'm a woman, and a daughter, and have a mother and sisters. Because I'm a fucking human being and he's vile and dangerous to everyone who isn't just like him.

+1

thd7t

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #695 on: October 08, 2016, 10:48:34 AM »
Finally... I need a Trump voter to just explain to me, especially those with sisters, daughters, wives, how you tell them that you're voting for someone who thinks he can grab them "by the pussy" because he is a star?
Can't help you there.  Of course, I couldn't explain how one could vote for Bill Clinton given what he did with a young intern.

I suspect both Trump's and (Bill) Clinton's supporters just figure "I like his politics better than the alternative, so I'll just overlook those annoying personal foibles."
Why are you talking about Bill Clinton?

sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #696 on: October 08, 2016, 11:14:10 AM »
Why are you talking about Bill Clinton?

For the same reason Mike Pence did so during the VP debate, and the same reason that MDM and h2r35 did so above.  When the person representing your preferred policies is a completely indefensible buffoon, the only viable strategy is to abandon all pretense of defense and go on the attack instead.  Just accept that you're voting for a terrible terrible person, and then try to convince people that the alternative is worse.

I'm not sure it works in this case, since Hillary's worst sin seems to be having spent a lifetime in the political spotlight. 

Just imagine the outcry if Hillary Clinton (or Sarah Palin) were to go on TV and say she liked to "grab men by the dick".  For some reason, Trump gets a free pass for saying he likes to "grab them by the pussy" because for some unfathomable reason society still accepts 1950s notions of sexual assault as a normal thing for a modern man to not only believe, but to say out loud, into a recording device.  I'm pretty sure the outrage would be even worse if the genders were reversed.  Yay for institutionalized discrimination!

Midwest

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #697 on: October 08, 2016, 11:32:37 AM »
Why are you talking about Bill Clinton?

For the same reason Mike Pence did so during the VP debate, and the same reason that MDM and h2r35 did so above.  When the person representing your preferred policies is a completely indefensible buffoon, the only viable strategy is to abandon all pretense of defense and go on the attack instead.  Just accept that you're voting for a terrible terrible person, and then try to convince people that the alternative is worse.

I'm not sure it works in this case, since Hillary's worst sin seems to be having spent a lifetime in the political spotlight. 

Just imagine the outcry if Hillary Clinton (or Sarah Palin) were to go on TV and say she liked to "grab men by the dick".  For some reason, Trump gets a free pass for saying he likes to "grab them by the pussy" because for some unfathomable reason society still accepts 1950s notions of sexual assault as a normal thing for a modern man to not only believe, but to say out loud, into a recording device.  I'm pretty sure the outrage would be even worse if the genders were reversed.  Yay for institutionalized discrimination!

Just imagine if Trump's wife had messed around with a subordinate(s), lied about it and Trump had called them all sorts of unflattering things in defense of his lying cheating wife.

Trump doesn't get a free pass on this.  It's awful.  Society doesn't accept this sort of behavior, that's why Trump is getting hammered on it.  The only reason I'm considering voting for him is because, among other things, Bill Clinton has done worse things to women.  No excuses for Trump and no defense of him by me or many Trump supporters. 

If the democrats had put up another candidate, I might be voting for a democrat.  I won't be voting for Hillary.

dividendman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #698 on: October 08, 2016, 12:10:00 PM »
Just imagine if Trump's wife had messed around with a subordinate(s), lied about it and Trump had called them all sorts of unflattering things in defense of his lying cheating wife.

Trump doesn't get a free pass on this.  It's awful.  Society doesn't accept this sort of behavior, that's why Trump is getting hammered on it.  The only reason I'm considering voting for him is because, among other things, Bill Clinton has done worse things to women.  No excuses for Trump and no defense of him by me or many Trump supporters. 

If the democrats had put up another candidate, I might be voting for a democrat.  I won't be voting for Hillary.

So you're considering voting for Trump because someone not on the ballot close to Clinton did worse things to women? Interesting.

sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #699 on: October 08, 2016, 12:12:50 PM »
Why are you talking about Bill Clinton?

Bill Clinton has done worse things to women. 

I find it hilarious that you responded to this question with the exact same argument that prompted the question in the first place.

I might see the logic in it, if Bill Clinton was actually running for something.