Author Topic: Trump Voters.... why?  (Read 195868 times)

Glenstache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1400 on: October 31, 2016, 01:10:49 PM »
As near as I can tell, voting for Trump is the political equivalent of "rolling coal."

I'll just go back to response #20 again (page 1).
No, really. I spend a lot of time thinking about rocks.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1401 on: October 31, 2016, 01:13:35 PM »
left-wing?  definitely not.  This chart does a good job showing Ideological placement of various news sources.  Note the average person is considered slightly left of neutral.  Fox news is almost twice as far to the right of average as WaPo is to the left of average.  The New Yorker and Slate might qualify as "Left-Wing" while Drudge, Breitbart, Rush are "right-wing"

Just pointing out that the chart is tracking the ideology of those outlets' audiences, and not judging the content.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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nereo

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1402 on: October 31, 2016, 01:16:12 PM »
left-wing?  definitely not.  This chart does a good job showing Ideological placement of various news sources.  Note the average person is considered slightly left of neutral.  Fox news is almost twice as far to the right of average as WaPo is to the left of average.  The New Yorker and Slate might qualify as "Left-Wing" while Drudge, Breitbart, Rush are "right-wing"

Just pointing out that the chart is tracking the ideology of those outlets' audiences, and not judging the content.
True and fair enough - the implication is that people choose news sources that fit their political pursuation.  This may not be a perfect correlation, but there's a lot of evidence showing we do strongly self-select our news outlets.
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waltworks

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1403 on: October 31, 2016, 01:17:08 PM »
I'm actually voting for Evan McMullin, but if forced to choose between Clinton/Trump I'd vote for Clinton because:
-Long and relatively successful record in both law and public policy. She was a competent senator and secretary of state.
-Reputation for being an overprepared nerd who cares about policy details.
-At least acknowledges climate change as an important and real issue, even if we disagree about the appropriate response.

-W


Right now, I think the correct question might be: Clinton voters...why?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1404 on: October 31, 2016, 01:18:57 PM »
left-wing?  definitely not.  This chart does a good job showing Ideological placement of various news sources.  Note the average person is considered slightly left of neutral.  Fox news is almost twice as far to the right of average as WaPo is to the left of average.  The New Yorker and Slate might qualify as "Left-Wing" while Drudge, Breitbart, Rush are "right-wing"

Just pointing out that the chart is tracking the ideology of those outlets' audiences, and not judging the content.
True and fair enough - the implication is that people choose news sources that fit their political pursuation.  This may not be a perfect correlation, but there's a lot of evidence showing we do strongly self-select our news outlets.

Absolutely, it wasn't a criticism, just an observation. Lots of people don't read the fine print.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1405 on: October 31, 2016, 01:19:36 PM »
True and fair enough - the implication is that people choose news sources that fit their political pursuation.

By that argument the Wall Street Journal would be a liberal paper. 

I think the distinction here is important.  That graphic suggests that lots of liberal people are getting their news from conservative sources, but that virtually no conservative people are getting their news from liberal sources.  No wonder people come in this thread and say crazy stuff.

MasterStache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1406 on: October 31, 2016, 01:19:54 PM »

Let me play devils advocate on the payment of subcontractors issue.  I have built many buildings, roads, etc. over the years and at times when the subcontractor, architect, or engineer didn't do a good job they didn't always get paid in full and they knew why.  If you had someone working on your house and they messed something up or didn't do what you asked would you pay them in full?  And last but not least even if what you say is true, with Trump being so well known, why would anyone in their right mind do any work for him if he was truly ripping people off all the time?  His company just finished renovating the Old Post Office building into a luxury hotel so someone is still willing to do work for him despite your assertion he robs all his subcontractors.  Again I will say that based on what I know he pushes things to the limit which comes off as seedy but not illegal but anyone that does business with him must know the risk.


That might make sense of it only happened a few times. But that is certainly not the case. It's happened consistently. Obviously his business ethics don't quite add up. Here is a good story about the Trump Taj. It has nothing to do with a whole bunch of incapable contractors not doing their jobs. It was broken promises and shoddy business dealings/ethics.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/10bbe40a86774bac9ad1fbd3a936c808/little-guy-contractors-still-angry-trump-taj-bankruptcy

Also note as you read the story how Trump tends to lie about his finances. Telling contractors he has plenty of money when in fact he doesn't. You really think he just tends to hire a whole bunch of shoddy contractors? Don't be so naive.

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tyort1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1408 on: October 31, 2016, 01:35:02 PM »
Good speech from contrarian Peter Thiel
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tech-titan-peter-thiel-explains-support-donald-trump/story?id=43191938

"A normal country doesn't have a half-trillion-dollar trade deficit. A normal country doesn't fight five simultaneous undeclared wars. In a normal country, the government actually does its job."

The problem with this narrative is the fact that since the 80's, it's the Republicans that have run up the debt via big deficits, and it's the Democrats that have reduced those deficits:



I would also like to point out that repubs were in charge of the time that preceded the stagflation of the 70's (Nixon and Ford preceded Carter), were in charge for of the decade before the great Depression in 1929 (Harding, Coolidge & Hoover), and were in charge of the 8 years before the great Recession of 2008 (W).  At some point you have to start questioning whether this is actually the party of fiscal responsibility.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 01:38:01 PM by tyort1 »
Frugalite in training.

sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1409 on: October 31, 2016, 01:43:48 PM »
new story shows that Trump is refusing to pay his campaign polster $767k.

Of COURSE he refused to pay them.  From his perspective, they did a terrible job polling because they didn't say that he's going to win the election, and he knows that he's going to win the election.  This totally fits his narratives.  All of them.

nereo

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1410 on: October 31, 2016, 01:45:42 PM »
Right now, I think the correct question might be: Clinton voters...why?
Not ranked in any particular order
1) Clinton both acknowledges climate change and believes we need to take policy steps to fight it.  DJT does neither

2) I've never heard Clinton say anything I'm embarrassed to have my niece hear.

3) Clinton's tax proposal, while not my ideal, is much closer to budget-neutral and focuses on retraining and assisting the lower and middle classes.  Trump's plan would add 5x more to the deficit and gives the biggest breaks to the wealthiest people (note; he would be one of hte biggest benefitiaries)

4) Clinton has actual experience in both the legislature and executive branches of the federal government.

5) I consider Clinton's early work with the Children's Defense Fund to be worthwhile and noble. I can't say the same about Trump's Casinos.

6) I believe Clinton is better able to work with people who have disagreed with her in public

7) I won't support repealing the ACA until I see a detailed plan about what it will be replaced with.  The ACA has faults, but it's better than the system we had circa 2006 when you could be denied coverage and your employer held outsized control over you and your plan.  Given how hard it was to pass in the first place I support trying to fix what's wrong than trying to scrap and start over.  An un-regulated free-market health care system would be an absolute disaster for anyone with a pre-existing condition, the poor, or who has an elevated risk due to occupation or family history.

8) I agree that we ought to give non-violent aliens who were born or who have lived in this country a direct path to citizenship... call it amnesty if you must.  I oppose building a wall both on political and on ecological grounds.  Also, I think it would be a stupid waste of money

9) I don't believe in imprisoning our political opponents.

10) Clinton's statements and votes on gun control are closer to my own than Trump's - we can have gun ownership while also requiring background checks and banning assault weapons from private ownership.

11) Clinton has been very consistent overall on her views for the last 20+ years.  Trump has changed policital parties 5 times, as well flipped on his support for just about every major hot-button issue (abortion, gun control, Iraq).  I believe having a consistent position as President is preferable than veering from one to the other.
just the ones off the top of my head.  There are others.
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Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1411 on: October 31, 2016, 02:08:12 PM »
nereo to answer your question Podesta was White House Chief of Staff for Obama while this was going on with Joule.  In regards to Trump's business dealings I don't dispute he is extremely aggressive in his tactics but what you fail to mention is that for every one company you say he hasn't paid there has to be many many more that he has that you have to acknowledge.  Unless your saying he stiffs every company that works for him.  And again if what you are saying is so terrible why does any company work for him?  My take again is that Trump is a extremely aggressive business person and doesn't hesitate to use the law to his advantage.  It may be distasteful to many people but it apparently isn't bad enough for people not to do business with him.

I only brought up the left wing comment because I got slammed for linking to a newsmax article which I don't even see on your scale  :)  On another note CNN and  Donna Brazile parted ways this week.  In a statement, CNN said it was "completely uncomfortable with what we have learned about her interactions with the Clinton campaign while she was a CNN contributor."  Guess they believed the Wikileaks emails.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/31/media/donna-brazile-cnn-resignation/index.html

acroy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1412 on: October 31, 2016, 02:27:47 PM »
Good speech from contrarian Peter Thiel
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tech-titan-peter-thiel-explains-support-donald-trump/story?id=43191938

"A normal country doesn't have a half-trillion-dollar trade deficit. A normal country doesn't fight five simultaneous undeclared wars. In a normal country, the government actually does its job."

The problem with this narrative is the fact that since the 80's, it's the Republicans that have run up the debt via big deficits, and it's the Democrats that have reduced those deficits:

I would also like to point out that repubs were in charge of the time that preceded the stagflation of the 70's (Nixon and Ford preceded Carter), were in charge for of the decade before the great Depression in 1929 (Harding, Coolidge & Hoover), and were in charge of the 8 years before the great Recession of 2008 (W).  At some point you have to start questioning whether this is actually the party of fiscal responsibility.
It's not rebups vs dems. Except for the silly cheerleaders who self-identify as a repub or a dem (Go Sports Team!). Trump coulda run as a Dem. Repubs probably wish he had. Take off the party glasses...
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nereo

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1413 on: October 31, 2016, 02:33:15 PM »
nereo to answer your question Podesta was White House Chief of Staff for Obama while this was going on with Joule.  In regards to Trump's business dealings I don't dispute he is extremely aggressive in his tactics but what you fail to mention is that for every one company you say he hasn't paid there has to be many many more that he has that you have to acknowledge.  Unless your saying he stiffs every company that works for him.  And again if what you are saying is so terrible why does any company work for him?  My take again is that Trump is a extremely aggressive business person and doesn't hesitate to use the law to his advantage.  It may be distasteful to many people but it apparently isn't bad enough for people not to do business with him.

Yes - that's basically my point.  Podesta was White House Chief of Staff.  It's an appointed position that requires no senate confirmation in part because the Chief of Staff has no official powers, and despite the impressive title he's basically the president's personal secretary - the modern version of a butler. Holding him to the same standard as a presidential candidate or cabinet member is absurd.

I'm not the one banging the drum about Trump paying his workers or not.  I'm aware many of them complain about not being paid (full disclosure, half my family is from NYC, and so I've heard about this for most of my life).  Your explanation though that "why does any company work for him" smells of victim-blaming.  For many small business owners, the siren's call of a lucrative contract is simply not a business opportunity they can resist, and a popular refrain from Trump has been that it will cost more for them to sue him than settle, so they settle.  Most small businesses lack the resources to fight being underpaid.
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Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1414 on: October 31, 2016, 02:36:24 PM »
I wasn't going to comment again but hey why not.  With all due respect what you indicate are beliefs, not facts.  I don't know the average number of lawsuits a normal corporation deals with each year, the number of vendors paid vs not paid, nor the average tax loss due to depreciation, etc a normal corporation claims each year (which by the way the IRS would thoroughly review) but none of what you describe is illegal if done according to law.  And yes the democratic attorney general of New York has filed a civil fraud charge against Trump University which has yet to be tried so those charges remain to be seen (which by the way I am sure Trump could have settled those claims many many months ago if he wanted to).  What I do know is that the FBI just today reopened their email investigation of Clinton based on new evidence they have found.  And what I know via Wikileaks is that the Clinton's have used their so called charitable foundation to enrich themselves and their donors by helping them out with political favors (i.e. the Swiss company Ericsson being allowed to sell Iran technology during the time there were supposed to be UN sanctions against such activities, Clinton's brother getting the first gold mining contract in Haiti in 50 years).  If you really want to get a sense for the Clinton's just check out the video of the group of American Haitians speaking to Trump last month.  Very eye opening.  None of them seemed to happy with what the Clinton's have done to Haiti in the years since the earthquake struck those poor people.  The only people who made out were the "Friends of Bill" and the Clinton's.  Again it is my opinion that the Clinton's are a criminal organization that has infiltrated all levels of our government based on the evidence coming out from Wikileaks, the project Veritas videos, State Department emails, etc.  When I compare these actions against the Trump activities you mention I see no comparison.  But once again this is a free country and people have the right to believe what they want to believe.  I encourage everyone to do their research and decide for themselves.

Free@50,

Thank you for your contributions to this topic, I've been wondering the whole time what Trump voters are thinking, and why the Wikileaks emails are so important.  I've reviewed every source you have posted and have not been convinced to date that Clinton is a criminal mastermind that has infiltrated all levels of government.  The one email that you sent that Clinton wrote herself presented a thoughtful take on how she would attack ISIL, and she offhand mentions Saudi Arabia during the email, a pretty normal thing when discussing a war in the middle east, and you are like "aha, see, she is now responsible for every evil Saudi Arabia has EVER done and she takes their money!".  I think this sums up the thought process of a certain class of Trump voter.  You search for "suspicious" facts and trump them up as some kind of evil because deep in your mind you just don't like Hillary Clinton and you don't like liberals and what they stand for.  Clinton isn't even in the government right now so for your conclusion to be true it would actually be Obama and/or all democrats that are part of this criminal operation.  Criticize Obama all you want, but this election has shown that he is nothing but a freaking choir boy compared to these candidates.

I strongly disagree with your take that the reason you dislike Clinton's character is that her accusations are criminal whereas Trump's are civil - Trump has been accused of sexual assault and even rape of minors.  On the spectrum of crime, I would put that only below murder in terms of seriousness.  And the Trump University case is fraud.  His anti-speech cases are also against the law in certain states (Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation). 

I also disagree with the poster who wishes that we should take character out of the equation and simply vote on issues.  I want a President that at least has normal thoughts and beliefs, the thought of a crazy narcissist like Trump being in charge is scary.  The job of the president is actually more about dealing with international conflict than it is about pushing forward legislation - which is the primary role of congress, and all the president can do is try to persuade and use the veto power.  And Trump as president would make a greater probability that we would either allow the US to be a puppet of Russia, or we'd enter a new war that could destroy our economy and potentially a generation of our young people.

Hi Moustache.  Didn't quite answer all your responses so here goes.  I never said I was trying to necessarily persuade anyone into believing the Clinton's are crime organization.  I just said that was my conclusion and provided some evidence I used to come to that conclusion.  And yes she is a part of the current government despite not holding office.  Many of those in power have ties to the Clinton's for many years i.e. Loretta Lynch.  Regarding her email I provided it is interesting how you say she says something offhand about Qatar and Saudi Arabia funding and supporting ISIL. Let me quote it again for you:

"While this military/para-military operation is moving forward, we need to use our diplomatic and more traditional intelligence assets to bring pressure on the governments of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, which are providing clandestine financial and logistic support to ISIL and other radical Sunni groups in the region."

And let me be clear about this.  The Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia.  How can you possibly rationalize her accepting these monies from countries that are supporting these horrific terrorists? 

And I'm not sure what you mean by a certain class of Trump voter but I laid out why I voted for him in earlier posts.  Guess you really didn't read all my dialogue on this subject.  But I can honestly say that after learning what I have learned from Wikileaks I really really don't like Hillary or Bill Clinton.  Chelsea on the other hand may actually not be corrupt which is refreshing.

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1415 on: October 31, 2016, 02:55:48 PM »
Hi nereo.  It isn't just me saying Podesta created a conflict of interest.  Read those articles.  He was required to sign papers and take steps to eliminate any concerns and it doesn't appear he did so when he put his daughter in law in charge of his stock.  You can hold him to a lower standard if you want.  In regards to companies that do business with him your position is they can't help themselves?  Again I will assert (with only my personal understanding of how many companies it takes to build a building) that for every company that Trump disputes payment there are dozens that he doesn't because they did a good job.  For what it is worth I will again state that I don't like Trump even though I do agree with some of his proposals.  My main concern is to stop the Clinton's from getting back into power and voting for any other candidate can't accomplish that.  For the most part I am taking up the advocate position on Trump just to balance the scales a bit as this ship seems to be tilted to one side.  If we all agreed what fun would that be....  Also someone mentioned that they think I dislike democrats/liberals.  That isn't true.  Just criminal ones.

sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1416 on: October 31, 2016, 02:58:38 PM »
The Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia.  How can you possibly rationalize her accepting these monies from countries that are supporting these horrific terrorists? 

Because those countries are officially our allies and friendly trade partners?  I feel like you're not even reading this thread.

Spend 30 seconds googling the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia or Quatar.  As we've already explained, these are not enemy states.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1417 on: October 31, 2016, 03:13:47 PM »
The Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia.  How can you possibly rationalize her accepting these monies from countries that are supporting these horrific terrorists? 
Because those countries are officially our allies and friendly trade partners?  I feel like you're not even reading this thread.

Spend 30 seconds googling the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia or Quatar.  As we've already explained, these are not enemy states.
That those countries are 'officially our allies' is another failure/disgrace/scandal from the Establishment (dem and repub). Saudi Arabia is on (and used to be head of) the UN Human Rights council. It is laughable. Drain the Swamp.
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Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1418 on: October 31, 2016, 03:35:49 PM »
The Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia.  How can you possibly rationalize her accepting these monies from countries that are supporting these horrific terrorists? 

Because those countries are officially our allies and friendly trade partners?  I feel like you're not even reading this thread.

Spend 30 seconds googling the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia or Quatar.  As we've already explained, these are not enemy states.

Wow ok.  Well guess what.  Now that I know they are funding ISIL who cuts off people's heads and supports killing our citizens I don't feel so friendly with them.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1419 on: October 31, 2016, 03:51:43 PM »
The Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia.  How can you possibly rationalize her accepting these monies from countries that are supporting these horrific terrorists? 

Because those countries are officially our allies and friendly trade partners?  I feel like you're not even reading this thread.


Oh, it's way beyond a feeling. I have had friends and coworkers like this. It all about beliefs to them, religious, political, whatever. Their beliefs are cast in stone, and facts to the contrary are of no value, dismissed without even review, and declared to be from unreliable sources, IE, not from Drudge or Breitbart.

  On the yearly anniversary of the sunsetting of the Bush era tax cut (the one that gave 97% of the benefits of a half trillion dollar tax brake to the 1%) without fail, one of the right wing, fact free, trash spewing sites will issue a notice. This notice blames everything that has changed in the tax code on that greedy bastard Obama, who is trying to steal money from the middle class and hard working poor folk. It makes outrageous statements about how high YOUR margin rates have now climbed, as in 50% + in the lowest bracket, and then hits the one hot button that the truly stupid fall for every time. It states that the estate tax is skyrocketing, which is neither true, or applicable to 99.9% of the dumbasses reading this horror warning. 

I finally walked away from a good friendship over shit like this.  My buddy sent the notice to me, just before we were heading out to dinner. I knew what it was, but double checked everything. At the restaurant he looked at me, with a very serious look, and asked if I got the warning? I then asked if he knew that every single line was bullshit?  This guy was a university grad, IBM middle manager and successful business owner, several times over. He then stated that I had no idea what I was talking about, his sources were solid, and everything was true. That was the end. I jut couldn't justify wasting anymore time with a guy who had allowed his brain to rot to that extent. We parted ways and haven't spoken since.

 As a white business owner in the construction industry, it's amazing to be surrounded with other white males who, by a large margin, hold these kind of beliefs. In many cases there is absolutely no factual basis for anything that comes out of their mouths, and they are fueled by nothing but hate, propaganda, and at least some level of racism,  but there is no way to even shoehorn a single fact into their minds. If it wasn't full of so many horrendous potential disasters, I would almost like to see a Trump presidency, with a republican house and senate. Only to watch all these idiots and their followers during four years of what would certainly be the greatest shit show in recorded history. Extremism lead by a savior who promises to fix all the nations problems, from crime, to resurrecting the industrial base, to turning back the clock and making it a white, wonderful, 1950s era.  Leave it to Beaver wonderland.  It's like a new ghost dance insurrection, only this time the medicine man is a narcissistic, morally bankrupt blowhard, with an orange squirrel for a toupee.

Seriously, you couldn't of made this shit up is you tried. Not only is it a shit show, but election day is far from the end of this mess.

nereo

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1420 on: October 31, 2016, 03:52:27 PM »

 Drain the Swamp.

I hate that hashtag, but for non-political reasons (or at least reasons not pertaining to this election).
Swamps shouldn't be drained; they're biological hot spots and they do very important things for us and for the environment. Draining swamps was one of those progressive and ill-conceived notions of the 19th century that wound up wreaking havoc on our ecosystems that we're still paying for today.

It's like #HarpoonTheWhales or #ClearcutTheForest.
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Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1421 on: October 31, 2016, 03:57:06 PM »
The Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia.  How can you possibly rationalize her accepting these monies from countries that are supporting these horrific terrorists? 
Because those countries are officially our allies and friendly trade partners?  I feel like you're not even reading this thread.

Spend 30 seconds googling the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia or Quatar.  As we've already explained, these are not enemy states.
That those countries are 'officially our allies' is another failure/disgrace/scandal from the Establishment (dem and repub). Saudi Arabia is on (and used to be head of) the UN Human Rights council. It is laughable. Drain the Swamp.

Drain the swamp, bomb them until the sand glows -- these are all very simplistic jingos put forth that diminish the complexity of foreign policy.  HC supports leveraging them to stop supporting these factions - what would you propose?  We cut off diplomatic ties to this oil producer?  Leave a vacuum for Russian influence, push them closer to the radical elements swirling around the middle east?  Every administration - R or D has been struggling with this issue, both on the Sunni and Shia side for some time.  So "stop the presses!" over this "news" event?  Hardly.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1422 on: October 31, 2016, 04:00:59 PM »



Oh, it's way beyond a feeling. I have had friends and coworkers like this. It all about beliefs to them, religious, political, whatever. Their beliefs are cast in stone, and facts to the contrary are of no value, dismissed without even review, and declared to be from unreliable sources, IE, not from Drudge or Breitbart.

  On the yearly anniversary of the sunsetting of the Bush era tax cut (the one that gave 97% of the benefits of a half trillion dollar tax brake to the 1%) without fail, one of the right wing, fact free, trash spewing sites will issue a notice. This notice blames everything that has changed in the tax code on that greedy bastard Obama, who is trying to steal money from the middle class and hard working poor folk. It makes outrageous statements about how high YOUR margin rates have now climbed, as in 50% + in the lowest bracket, and then hits the one hot button that the truly stupid fall for every time. It states that the estate tax is skyrocketing, which is neither true, or applicable to 99.9% of the dumbasses reading this horror warning. 

I finally walked away from a good friendship over shit like this.  My buddy sent the notice to me, just before we were heading out to dinner. I knew what it was, but double checked everything. At the restaurant he looked at me, with a very serious look, and asked if I got the warning? I then asked if he knew that every single line was bullshit?  This guy was a university grad, IBM middle manager and successful business owner, several times over. He then stated that I had no idea what I was talking about, his sources were solid, and everything was true. That was the end. I jut couldn't justify wasting anymore time with a guy who had allowed his brain to rot to that extent. We parted ways and haven't spoken since.

 As a white business owner in the construction industry, it's amazing to be surrounded with other white males who, by a large margin, hold these kind of beliefs. In many cases there is absolutely no factual basis for anything that comes out of their mouths, and they are fueled by nothing but hate, propaganda, and at least some level of racism,  but there is no way to even shoehorn a single fact into their minds. If it wasn't full of so many horrendous potential disasters, I would almost like to see a Trump presidency, with a republican house and senate. Only to watch all these idiots and their followers during four years of what would certainly be the greatest shit show in recorded history. Extremism lead by a savior who promises to fix all the nations problems, from crime, to resurrecting the industrial base, to turning back the clock and making it a white, wonderful, 1950s era.  Leave it to Beaver wonderland.  It's like a new ghost dance insurrection, only this time the medicine man is a narcissistic, morally bankrupt blowhard, with an orange squirrel for a toupee.

Seriously, you couldn't of made this shit up is you tried. Not only is it a shit show, but election day is far from the end of this mess.

There seems to be an increasing emphasis on how folks "feel" about issues rather than reliance on facts.  Unfortunately.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1423 on: October 31, 2016, 04:14:31 PM »
Hi nereo.  It isn't just me saying Podesta created a conflict of interest.  Read those articles.  He was required to sign papers and take steps to eliminate any concerns and it doesn't appear he did so when he put his daughter in law in charge of his stock.  You can hold him to a lower standard if you want. 
Deliberately or unintentionally you are still skirting the point.  As indicated, I obviously hold the WH Chief of Staff to a lower standard than POTUS, or a candidate for POTUS.  My questions is - why don't you?

As for "those articles" - are you referring to newsmax here?(!)  Unfortunately the WSJ story it seems to reference is behind a paywall, but even a first glance reading shows this to be awash in uncertainty.  "There are suspicions" and "raises the question" are partisan dog-whistles. No where does it show actual proof that these conflicts of interest actually occurred.  The final sentence though I find almost comical given the discussion: "America's disclosure laws are designed to allow citizens to see what conflicts of interests our senior government officials might have. That is especially the case when they or their families are financially linked to adversarial foreign governments." Ironically, Trump's opaqueness has prevented us from seeing what conflict of interest(s) he might share.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1424 on: October 31, 2016, 04:21:30 PM »

 Drain the Swamp.

I hate that hashtag, but for non-political reasons (or at least reasons not pertaining to this election).
Swamps shouldn't be drained; they're biological hot spots and they do very important things for us and for the environment. Draining swamps was one of those progressive and ill-conceived notions of the 19th century that wound up wreaking havoc on our ecosystems that we're still paying for today.

It's like #HarpoonTheWhales or #ClearcutTheForest.

Sooo... DTS is actually a pretty spot on phrase, then. Take decisive action on something perceived to be a problem without understanding the underlying functionality and repercussions. I guess the alternate would be: There is a swamp which is non-arable land, hard to walk across and breeds  mosquitoes. We should develop a multi-part approach to a) identify alternate arable land for agriculture, b) identify a transit corridor and design a compatible structure to accommodate swamp (wetland) function, and c) develop a targeted mosquito mitigation strategy. But goddam, that level of complexity just doesn't roll of the tongue as well, does it?
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1425 on: October 31, 2016, 04:25:40 PM »
The Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia.  How can you possibly rationalize her accepting these monies from countries that are supporting these horrific terrorists? 
Because those countries are officially our allies and friendly trade partners?  I feel like you're not even reading this thread.

Spend 30 seconds googling the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia or Quatar.  As we've already explained, these are not enemy states.
That those countries are 'officially our allies' is another failure/disgrace/scandal from the Establishment (dem and repub). Saudi Arabia is on (and used to be head of) the UN Human Rights council. It is laughable. Drain the Swamp.

Drain the swamp, bomb them until the sand glows -- these are all very simplistic jingos put forth that diminish the complexity of foreign policy.  HC supports leveraging them to stop supporting these factions - what would you propose?  We cut off diplomatic ties to this oil producer?  Leave a vacuum for Russian influence, push them closer to the radical elements swirling around the middle east?  Every administration - R or D has been struggling with this issue, both on the Sunni and Shia side for some time.  So "stop the presses!" over this "news" event?  Hardly.

This isn't about the relationships our government needs to maintain.  This is about a "charity" where the owner knows that major donors are supporting terrorism.  It is clear we won't agree on much of anything related to the Clinton's specifically and that's ok.  We will know soon enough which direction our country is headed and whether or not some of the assertions in this chain are true. 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1426 on: October 31, 2016, 04:31:12 PM »
The Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia.  How can you possibly rationalize her accepting these monies from countries that are supporting these horrific terrorists? 
Because those countries are officially our allies and friendly trade partners?  I feel like you're not even reading this thread.

Spend 30 seconds googling the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia or Quatar.  As we've already explained, these are not enemy states.
That those countries are 'officially our allies' is another failure/disgrace/scandal from the Establishment (dem and repub). Saudi Arabia is on (and used to be head of) the UN Human Rights council. It is laughable. Drain the Swamp.

Drain the swamp, bomb them until the sand glows -- these are all very simplistic jingos put forth that diminish the complexity of foreign policy.  HC supports leveraging them to stop supporting these factions - what would you propose?  We cut off diplomatic ties to this oil producer?  Leave a vacuum for Russian influence, push them closer to the radical elements swirling around the middle east?  Every administration - R or D has been struggling with this issue, both on the Sunni and Shia side for some time.  So "stop the presses!" over this "news" event?  Hardly.

This isn't about the relationships our government needs to maintain.  This is about a "charity" where the owner knows that major donors are supporting terrorism.  It is clear we won't agree on much of anything related to the Clinton's specifically and that's ok.  We will know soon enough which direction our country is headed and whether or not some of the assertions in this chain are true.

Well this brings out an interesting hypothetical.  If a known murderer donates money to a charity, does the charity have an ethical obligation to refuse that money?

Conversely, can a bad person not do something good?
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1427 on: October 31, 2016, 04:36:47 PM »
The Clinton Foundation has accepted millions of dollars from Qatar and especially Saudi Arabia.  How can you possibly rationalize her accepting these monies from countries that are supporting these horrific terrorists? 
Because those countries are officially our allies and friendly trade partners?  I feel like you're not even reading this thread.

Spend 30 seconds googling the relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia or Quatar.  As we've already explained, these are not enemy states.
That those countries are 'officially our allies' is another failure/disgrace/scandal from the Establishment (dem and repub). Saudi Arabia is on (and used to be head of) the UN Human Rights council. It is laughable. Drain the Swamp.

Drain the swamp, bomb them until the sand glows -- these are all very simplistic jingos put forth that diminish the complexity of foreign policy.  HC supports leveraging them to stop supporting these factions - what would you propose?  We cut off diplomatic ties to this oil producer?  Leave a vacuum for Russian influence, push them closer to the radical elements swirling around the middle east?  Every administration - R or D has been struggling with this issue, both on the Sunni and Shia side for some time.  So "stop the presses!" over this "news" event?  Hardly.

This isn't about the relationships our government needs to maintain.  This is about a "charity" where the owner knows that major donors are supporting terrorism.  It is clear we won't agree on much of anything related to the Clinton's specifically and that's ok.  We will know soon enough which direction our country is headed and whether or not some of the assertions in this chain are true.

This is like the argument that churches shouldn't accept charitable donations from atheists.

Yes the saudis do a lot of things that we (myself included) find abhorrent. That does not mean that they should not be able to contribute money to do good. What good end is served by that?

As a diplomatic issue, there is tremendous value in having these informal alliances with those we don't necessarily agree with. The back door communications and trust building that arises from these types of communications and ventures are very, very useful. This isn't quite spot on, but related to work that won a Nobel prize for how to get people with different interests and objectives to work together on problems. https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/economic-sciences/laureates/2009/

The world is a messy place. Maybe we shouldn't be offering SA military assistance to the extent that we do (see cruise missile strikes a week or two back), but somehow not allowing them to make charitable contributions is not only misguided, but also counterproductive.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 04:38:19 PM by Glenstache »
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tyort1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1428 on: October 31, 2016, 04:48:33 PM »
This isn't about the relationships our government needs to maintain.  This is about a "charity" where the owner knows that major donors are supporting terrorism.  It is clear we won't agree on much of anything related to the Clinton's specifically and that's ok.  We will know soon enough which direction our country is headed and whether or not some of the assertions in this chain are true.

Does any of that really even matter?  Money is fungible.  Where it comes from is less important than where it is going. 

Unless you are saying that the money was given with strings attached.  In that case, it would be up to you to actually show that.  Not just "shady people gave money", but rather "shady people gave $$ and then the Clintons did something that directly benefited the giver". 

Here, I'll give you an example.  Charges are brought against Trump University in Florida.  Trump donated $50,000 to the Florida Attorney General's re-election campaign.  Charges are dropped.  That's not full proof, but that's a lot closer than ANYTHING at the Clinton foundation.  Either way, Trump seems much closer to criminal behavior than the Clintons.

Sigh, but given the tenor of this conversation (and based on many other exchanges with Trump supporters), what you will actually hear is something along the lines of:

"blah blah blah Clinton blah blah blah Charity blah blah blah Criminal."  And then you'll say:

"See, Clinton and her Foundation are Criminals!". 
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Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1429 on: October 31, 2016, 04:55:13 PM »
I am going to be so happy when the Crybaby loses by a landslide next week.  He'll be lucky to get 200 electoral votes at this point.  Good riddance.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1430 on: October 31, 2016, 04:56:04 PM »
This isn't about the relationships our government needs to maintain.  This is about a "charity" where the owner knows that major donors are supporting terrorism.  It is clear we won't agree on much of anything related to the Clinton's specifically and that's ok.  We will know soon enough which direction our country is headed and whether or not some of the assertions in this chain are true.

Does any of that really even matter?  Money is fungible.  Where it comes from is less important than where it is going. 

Unless you are saying that the money was given with strings attached.  In that case, it would be up to you to actually show that.  Not just "shady people gave money", but rather "shady people gave $$ and then the Clintons did something that directly benefited the giver". 

Here, I'll give you an example.  Charges are brought against Trump University in Florida.  Trump donated $50,000 to the Florida Attorney General's re-election campaign.  Charges are dropped.  That's not full proof, but that's a lot closer than ANYTHING at the Clinton foundation.  Either way, Trump seems much closer to criminal behavior than the Clintons.

Sigh, but given the tenor of this conversation (and based on many other exchanges with Trump supporters), what you will actually hear is something along the lines of:

"blah blah blah Clinton blah blah blah Charity blah blah blah Criminal."  And then you'll say:

"See, Clinton and her Foundation are Criminals!".

Funny I now kind of feel the same way about you Clinton supporters.  :)  Though I don't really like Trump either.  Like I said we will see soon enough and at that time we can reconvene the discussion.

tyort1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1431 on: October 31, 2016, 05:14:53 PM »

Funny I now kind of feel the same way about you Clinton supporters.  :)  Though I don't really like Trump either.  Like I said we will see soon enough and at that time we can reconvene the discussion.

Wow, a nice reply thanks for that!  Seriously I thought you might go ballistic on me (it's happened with other people in the past), but I'm happy it's staying civil.

To bring it back to data, Trump has a structural problem that he inherited from the Republicans, and that's that the Dems just outnumber them:



As you can see, the Republicans have to reach out and convince more of the independent voters than the Dems.  This is the whole idea of "Pivoting to the center" that you normally see BOTH Dems and Repubs do after their primaries. 

IMO, the very interesting thing about this election is that NEITHER Hillary or Donald pivoted toward the center.  In fact, they both pivoted away from the center.  Hillary went left as a result of the primary challenge from Bernie, and Donald pivoted to the right because, well I don't know why, but he did.

This means that this election should answer pretty clearly those critics on either extreme of both parties that always say "well if only we'd run a pure democrat, we'd have won", or conversely "if only we'd run a REAL Republican, then WE would have won".  The source of these people's vexation is the traditional pivot to the center than has happened in every other recent election, but hasn't in this one.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1432 on: October 31, 2016, 05:23:07 PM »
This means that this election should answer pretty clearly those critics on either extreme of both parties that always say "well if only we'd run a pure democrat, we'd have won", or conversely "if only we'd run a REAL Republican, then WE would have won".  The source of these people's vexation is the traditional pivot to the center than has happened in every other recent election, but hasn't in this one.

I'm pretty sure that the republican party could have put forth anyone who met the following:

  • Reasonably pro-life
  • Fiscally conservative (for real, not "we're conservative because we spend money differently than you!" flavor)
  • Commitment to constitutional supreme court justice appointees
  • Not a complete moral trainwreck

and walked away with the election.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1433 on: October 31, 2016, 05:26:59 PM »
Just a random thought that I had...

For that subset of hte population who supports Trump based on the idea that "We need to throw the bums out (etc.)"...
why doesn't this also apply to the GOP representatives in the legislative branch, which has held the House for 6 years and the Senate for the last 2...
Why not the Supreme Court, which has been decidedly conservative since the 1970s?

I suppose the knee-jerk reaction is that Congress could do nothing with Obama in office; but this is also the congress that shut down government, let the sequester go forward and had god-knows-how-many self imposed debt ceiling crises.
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tyort1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1434 on: October 31, 2016, 05:30:19 PM »
This means that this election should answer pretty clearly those critics on either extreme of both parties that always say "well if only we'd run a pure democrat, we'd have won", or conversely "if only we'd run a REAL Republican, then WE would have won".  The source of these people's vexation is the traditional pivot to the center than has happened in every other recent election, but hasn't in this one.

I'm pretty sure that the republican party could have put forth anyone who met the following:

  • Reasonably pro-life
  • Fiscally conservative (for real, not "we're conservative because we spend money differently than you!" flavor)
  • Commitment to constitutional supreme court justice appointees
  • Not a complete moral trainwreck

and walked away with the election.

We live in a democracy, and the voters select the candidates.  Donald Trump is exactly the candidate that the Republican voters want.  If he isn't, then they wouldn't have voted for him.

Having spent a fair bit of time on Breitbart and Free Republic I can say this is actually correct - the people (the core, most motivated voters) absolutely hate establishment candidates.  They call people like Ryan, McConnell, Rubio, Kaisich, et al RINO's.  Republicans In Name Only.  They are generally very happy with Trump. 

Honestly I can't say I blame them.  The GOPe (that's GOP Elite, for you non-freepers) have been screwing over the working class for a very long time.  And the working class is freaking tired of it.  And they figure Trump gets that and will fight for them because he's said that he will.  Or at least if he can't win then he might just blow everything up, which would also make these voters pretty happy.  If you don't believe me, just go over there and browse through the comment section of literally any article.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1435 on: October 31, 2016, 05:33:52 PM »
This means that this election should answer pretty clearly those critics on either extreme of both parties that always say "well if only we'd run a pure democrat, we'd have won", or conversely "if only we'd run a REAL Republican, then WE would have won".  The source of these people's vexation is the traditional pivot to the center than has happened in every other recent election, but hasn't in this one.

I'm pretty sure that the republican party could have put forth anyone who met the following:

  • Reasonably pro-life
  • Fiscally conservative (for real, not "we're conservative because we spend money differently than you!" flavor)
  • Commitment to constitutional supreme court justice appointees
  • Not a complete moral trainwreck

and walked away with the election.

Hmm...
I'm pretty sure the Democrats could have nominated anyone who
  • Wasn't named Clinton

...and walked away with the election against Trump.  Really, I'm trying to think of other things they would have had to be, but... if Clinton is currently ahead I find it hard to imagine that someone named Sanders/Warren/Biden/Keane/O'Malley/Webb/Castro/Booker would be not be doing even better.
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ender

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1436 on: October 31, 2016, 05:37:29 PM »
Hmm...
I'm pretty sure the Democrats could have nominated anyone who
  • Wasn't named Clinton

...and walked away with the election against Trump.  Really, I'm trying to think of other things they would have had to be, but... if Clinton is currently ahead I find it hard to imagine that someone named Sanders/Warren/Biden/Keane/O'Malley/Webb/Castro/Booker would be not be doing even better.

Oh, I agree entirely. That's what happens when the two least liked candidates from either party happen to be in the same election.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 05:42:22 PM by ender »

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1437 on: October 31, 2016, 05:41:15 PM »

Funny I now kind of feel the same way about you Clinton supporters.  :)  Though I don't really like Trump either.  Like I said we will see soon enough and at that time we can reconvene the discussion.

Wow, a nice reply thanks for that!  Seriously I thought you might go ballistic on me (it's happened with other people in the past), but I'm happy it's staying civil.

To bring it back to data, Trump has a structural problem that he inherited from the Republicans, and that's that the Dems just outnumber them:



As you can see, the Republicans have to reach out and convince more of the independent voters than the Dems.  This is the whole idea of "Pivoting to the center" that you normally see BOTH Dems and Repubs do after their primaries. 

IMO, the very interesting thing about this election is that NEITHER Hillary or Donald pivoted toward the center.  In fact, they both pivoted away from the center.  Hillary went left as a result of the primary challenge from Bernie, and Donald pivoted to the right because, well I don't know why, but he did.

This means that this election should answer pretty clearly those critics on either extreme of both parties that always say "well if only we'd run a pure democrat, we'd have won", or conversely "if only we'd run a REAL Republican, then WE would have won".  The source of these people's vexation is the traditional pivot to the center than has happened in every other recent election, but hasn't in this one.

LOL yea I try not to take anything personal.  This election has certainly been one of the more stressful cycles I have lived through so emotions are high.  Your analysis is interesting.  My views on the democratic side is that it was pretty much decided it was Hillary.  Bernie was just annoying to the party being he wasn't even a democrat before the primaries but I think he did do damage to her candidacy.  On the Repub side they ran 17 of their "best" and Trump beat the pants off them spending the least amount of money than anyone.  And I think that is because people got tired of the same old pitches as well as the fact that Trump built a following over the last 15 years from the Apprentice.  In my opinion he used the media masterfully during the primaries.  Lotsa free press.  I do think he pivoted somewhat in the general here reaching out to Bernie voters, normally blue collar democratic voters i.e. coal miners & manufacturing workers, as well as minorities related to inner city conditions.  But yes he has the hard core Repub's scratching their heads.  Question is come Nov 8 whether or not his outreach to those groups as well as everything that has developed with Clinton has enough of an impact.  The polls over the next couple of days should be interesting. 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1438 on: October 31, 2016, 05:50:28 PM »
This means that this election should answer pretty clearly those critics on either extreme of both parties that always say "well if only we'd run a pure democrat, we'd have won", or conversely "if only we'd run a REAL Republican, then WE would have won".  The source of these people's vexation is the traditional pivot to the center than has happened in every other recent election, but hasn't in this one.

I'm pretty sure that the republican party could have put forth anyone who met the following:

  • Reasonably pro-life
  • Fiscally conservative (for real, not "we're conservative because we spend money differently than you!" flavor)
  • Commitment to constitutional supreme court justice appointees
  • Not a complete moral trainwreck

and walked away with the election.

I have no doubt that as a rational adult conservative, John Kasich would of easily beat HRC. That said, the repubs. have reaped what they worked so very hard to sow. They gerrymandered every district they could, then carefully cultivated the hard right extreme, until the only way they could withstand a challenger in a governor, house or senate slot was to be able to prove to the deplorables that they are the hardest right chucklenut in the race.  Do this for half a dozen two year cycles, or so, and this is where you end up. Unfortunately, Kasich isn't the type to feed the troops by pounding on the podium, and spewing horseshit about selling baby parts, jailing political opponents, or returning this country to the imaginary Theocracy that it never was. As a result, Kasich, like a lot of qualified folks in the republican party, isn't going anywhere for however long it takes to clean this mess up, and seriously, where do you even start with that monumental task?

When George W. recently said, "I worried that I may be the last Republican president", it was a profound, and telling comment. I don't doubt that he may prove to be correct.

tyort1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1439 on: October 31, 2016, 05:57:13 PM »
Yes, that's true!  Gerrymandering usually results in a more extreme voting base.  And that more extreme voting base votes in more extreme candidates.  So a Trump was inevitable. 

Personally I would have loved to have seen Kaisich vs John Hickenlooper who is governor of CO.  Both are much more centrist politicians than either Donald or Hillary. 

Although I will say that personally I have no issues with Hillary, I think she will be fine.  And I do like helping to elect the first woman president.  Just like I was happy to vote for Obama and support our first black president.  It's nice to be on the right side of history.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1440 on: October 31, 2016, 05:58:16 PM »
This means that this election should answer pretty clearly those critics on either extreme of both parties that always say "well if only we'd run a pure democrat, we'd have won", or conversely "if only we'd run a REAL Republican, then WE would have won".  The source of these people's vexation is the traditional pivot to the center than has happened in every other recent election, but hasn't in this one.

I'm pretty sure that the republican party could have put forth anyone who met the following:

  • Reasonably pro-life
  • Fiscally conservative (for real, not "we're conservative because we spend money differently than you!" flavor)
  • Commitment to constitutional supreme court justice appointees
  • Not a complete moral trainwreck

and walked away with the election.

I have no doubt that as a rational adult conservative, John Kasich would of easily beat HRC. That said, the repubs. have reaped what they worked so very hard to sow. They gerrymandered every district they could, then carefully cultivated the hard right extreme, until the only way they could withstand a challenger in a governor, house or senate slot was to be able to prove to the deplorables that they are the hardest right chucklenut in the race.  Do this for half a dozen two year cycles, or so, and this is where you end up. Unfortunately, Kasich isn't the type to feed the troops by pounding on the podium, and spewing horseshit about selling baby parts, jailing political opponents, or returning this country to the imaginary Theocracy that it never was. As a result, Kasich, like a lot of qualified folks in the republican party, isn't going anywhere for however long it takes to clean this mess up, and seriously, where do you even start with that monumental task?

When George W. recently said, "I worried that I may be the last Republican president", it was a profound, and telling comment. I don't doubt that he may prove to be correct.

Ok I didn't think we would agree on anything but I was wrong!   I actually thought Kasich would have been the best choice too for the Republicans and think he would have won in a landslide given the current state of affairs.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1441 on: October 31, 2016, 06:00:25 PM »
This means that this election should answer pretty clearly those critics on either extreme of both parties that always say "well if only we'd run a pure democrat, we'd have won", or conversely "if only we'd run a REAL Republican, then WE would have won".  The source of these people's vexation is the traditional pivot to the center than has happened in every other recent election, but hasn't in this one.

I'm pretty sure that the republican party could have put forth anyone who met the following:

  • Reasonably pro-life
  • Fiscally conservative (for real, not "we're conservative because we spend money differently than you!" flavor)
  • Commitment to constitutional supreme court justice appointees
  • Not a complete moral trainwreck

and walked away with the election.

I think you're right. If that reasonable person could have gotten the nomination.

But in this political climate, unfortunately, the tinfoil hat brigade has hijacked the Republican party. Result: ain't no way a reasonable Republican has a chance in hell at the nomination.

Thank right-wing media. And John McCain for Sarah Palin, and the Tea Party.

I say this as a liberal. I would be so, so thankful if we had two decent, functioning parties. I would happily vote for 2000 John McCain. But 2016 John McCain has been taken over by the pod people.

Republicans, please get your party together. I'm begging you.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1442 on: October 31, 2016, 06:06:35 PM »

LOL yea I try not to take anything personal.  This election has certainly been one of the more stressful cycles I have lived through so emotions are high.  Your analysis is interesting.  My views on the democratic side is that it was pretty much decided it was Hillary.  Bernie was just annoying to the party being he wasn't even a democrat before the primaries but I think he did do damage to her candidacy.  On the Repub side they ran 17 of their "best" and Trump beat the pants off them spending the least amount of money than anyone.  And I think that is because people got tired of the same old pitches as well as the fact that Trump built a following over the last 15 years from the Apprentice.  In my opinion he used the media masterfully during the primaries.  Lotsa free press.  I do think he pivoted somewhat in the general here reaching out to Bernie voters, normally blue collar democratic voters i.e. coal miners & manufacturing workers, as well as minorities related to inner city conditions.  But yes he has the hard core Repub's scratching their heads.  Question is come Nov 8 whether or not his outreach to those groups as well as everything that has developed with Clinton has enough of an impact.  The polls over the next couple of days should be interesting.

So far it's been a fun conversation - I hope it continues to be so.  I also share your view that this has been one of the more stressful election cycles (for me the only thing even close was Bush/Gore, and it's hard to accurately judge feelings now with feelings 16 years ago).

Regarding Hillary's nomination, I was a bit sad that some other bona-fide democrats weren't ever in the race.  Too bad Joe wasn't emotionally available, though my initial support would have gone to O'Malley (moderate, popular governor who was also scandal free).

on the GOP side - my take is that the ridiculousness of having 17 candidates was the biggest factor in Trump dominating.  Sometimes it's easier to win a royal-rumble than a one-on-one... throw some red meat into the ring, get in a few punches and then watch as everyone destroys each other.  Remember that Trump still didn't win a majority of votes.  The tea-partiers went with Cruz, more 'sensible' (for lack of a better word) Rs split between Kasich and Bush. Rubio was the establishment's up-and-coming goldenboy, and appealed to those that wanted to see a bright and cheerful face.  The hawks went to Graham, those that really cared about a drastically smaller government coalesed around Paul...  in other words, the various factions split but the large, amorphous group of people who just want change damned-how-we-get-it stuck to Trump.  And that turned out to be a larger share than the others (roughly 30% of the vote in most places up until he and Cruz were the only ones left to vote for). Remember the "second debate" for people who didn't make the first one?

So I think the candidates for each party would have been much different if both the GOP and the Democrats had put forth 4 or 5 candidates.  This months-long primary voting process also really screwed things up this time, IMO.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1443 on: October 31, 2016, 06:23:08 PM »

LOL yea I try not to take anything personal.  This election has certainly been one of the more stressful cycles I have lived through so emotions are high.  Your analysis is interesting.  My views on the democratic side is that it was pretty much decided it was Hillary.  Bernie was just annoying to the party being he wasn't even a democrat before the primaries but I think he did do damage to her candidacy.  On the Repub side they ran 17 of their "best" and Trump beat the pants off them spending the least amount of money than anyone.  And I think that is because people got tired of the same old pitches as well as the fact that Trump built a following over the last 15 years from the Apprentice.  In my opinion he used the media masterfully during the primaries.  Lotsa free press.  I do think he pivoted somewhat in the general here reaching out to Bernie voters, normally blue collar democratic voters i.e. coal miners & manufacturing workers, as well as minorities related to inner city conditions.  But yes he has the hard core Repub's scratching their heads.  Question is come Nov 8 whether or not his outreach to those groups as well as everything that has developed with Clinton has enough of an impact.  The polls over the next couple of days should be interesting.

So far it's been a fun conversation - I hope it continues to be so.  I also share your view that this has been one of the more stressful election cycles (for me the only thing even close was Bush/Gore, and it's hard to accurately judge feelings now with feelings 16 years ago).

Regarding Hillary's nomination, I was a bit sad that some other bona-fide democrats weren't ever in the race.  Too bad Joe wasn't emotionally available, though my initial support would have gone to O'Malley (moderate, popular governor who was also scandal free).

on the GOP side - my take is that the ridiculousness of having 17 candidates was the biggest factor in Trump dominating.  Sometimes it's easier to win a royal-rumble than a one-on-one... throw some red meat into the ring, get in a few punches and then watch as everyone destroys each other.  Remember that Trump still didn't win a majority of votes.  The tea-partiers went with Cruz, more 'sensible' (for lack of a better word) Rs split between Kasich and Bush. Rubio was the establishment's up-and-coming goldenboy, and appealed to those that wanted to see a bright and cheerful face.  The hawks went to Graham, those that really cared about a drastically smaller government coalesed around Paul...  in other words, the various factions split but the large, amorphous group of people who just want change damned-how-we-get-it stuck to Trump.  And that turned out to be a larger share than the others (roughly 30% of the vote in most places up until he and Cruz were the only ones left to vote for). Remember the "second debate" for people who didn't make the first one?

So I think the candidates for each party would have been much different if both the GOP and the Democrats had put forth 4 or 5 candidates.  This months-long primary voting process also really screwed things up this time, IMO.

17 candidates would have been just fine and maybe even produced a reasonable candidate if the primary had included ranked voting.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1444 on: October 31, 2016, 06:53:52 PM »
This is just a shower thought, but I can't goer this contradiction out of my head. On the one hand, Republicans are known as the "bootstrap" party. They look down on the "whiners" and "self-entitled" generation that demands social programs that benefit the poor, disenfranchised, and monirities. On the other hand, they demand that we "bring back the jobs" that have been outsourced or made irrelevant because of technology. Shouldn't they be telling their electorate to pull themselves up by their bottstraps and get educated and adapt? Why do they not see the hypocrisy?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1445 on: October 31, 2016, 06:55:40 PM »
I'll be kinda sad to see this thread end next week.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1446 on: October 31, 2016, 07:05:39 PM »
I'll be kinda sad to see this thread end next week.

well it doesn't have to.  I mean, we can spend years asking Trump voters... why?  Who knows, maybe recent or future news events will add even more discussion.

Personally, though, I'm ready for this election to be over.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1447 on: October 31, 2016, 07:14:56 PM »
Hi nereo.  It isn't just me saying Podesta created a conflict of interest.  Read those articles.  He was required to sign papers and take steps to eliminate any concerns and it doesn't appear he did so when he put his daughter in law in charge of his stock.  You can hold him to a lower standard if you want.  In regards to companies that do business with him your position is they can't help themselves?  Again I will assert (with only my personal understanding of how many companies it takes to build a building) that for every company that Trump disputes payment there are dozens that he doesn't because they did a good job.  For what it is worth I will again state that I don't like Trump even though I do agree with some of his proposals.  My main concern is to stop the Clinton's from getting back into power and voting for any other candidate can't accomplish that.  For the most part I am taking up the advocate position on Trump just to balance the scales a bit as this ship seems to be tilted to one side.  If we all agreed what fun would that be....  Also someone mentioned that they think I dislike democrats/liberals.  That isn't true.  Just criminal ones.

I am assuming you didn't read the article about the Trump Taj project. Well I'll put it bluntly. Trump hired contractors to do a job. Those contractors did their job. At no point did Trump claim they did a poor job nor refuse to pay them because of this. He did however have all kinds of financial issues (massive debt), which he lied about, and ultimately could not afford to pay those contractors.

Figuring out that litigation would probably cost more and take years, the contractors and Trump settled on drastically reduced payments. So reduced that some folks went out of business (we are talking millions). I guess it's ok because he pays some folks. That logic is a bit flawed but let's be honest, supporting Trump means you have to accept some extremely flawed logic. 

Asking why folks still do business with Trump is pretty disingenuous. A self imposed multi-billionaire looking for contractors isn't going to have a tough time finding them. Regardless of his past.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1448 on: October 31, 2016, 07:16:26 PM »
I'll be kinda sad to see this thread end next week.

well it doesn't have to.  I mean, we can spend years asking Trump voters... why?  Who knows, maybe recent or future news events will add even more discussion.

Personally, though, I'm ready for this election to be over.

That's true - in the event that Trump wins the election, there are at least four years of him in office to complain, and at least four more after he's left to blame our problems on him.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1449 on: October 31, 2016, 07:17:53 PM »
This is just a shower thought, but I can't goer this contradiction out of my head. On the one hand, Republicans are known as the "bootstrap" party. They look down on the "whiners" and "self-entitled" generation that demands social programs that benefit the poor, disenfranchised, and monirities. On the other hand, they demand that we "bring back the jobs" that have been outsourced or made irrelevant because of technology. Shouldn't they be telling their electorate to pull themselves up by their bottstraps and get educated and adapt? Why do they not see the hypocrisy?

Ironically, that's exactly what Republicans said before this election. Think about who benefits the most from protectionist policies - unions. Republicans don't typically do much to help those guys. I think Trump seized on the perception (and reality...) that the DNC is abandoning it's blue collar Union types, and is hoping to scoop up some of them, along with the others who can be convinced the DNC abandoned them, to get the victory.

As a conservative, I do not beleive in sparing industies from creative destruction. But as a less hardcore one, I believe we ought to fund some training and education to help them find new careers.