Author Topic: Trump Voters.... why?  (Read 159074 times)

libertarian4321

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #800 on: October 11, 2016, 03:02:37 PM »
Stick a fork in Trump, he's done.

Barring someone finding video footage of Hillary wiring the Twin Towers with explosives in the hours before 9-11 occurred, he has NO CHANCE of winning.

He's just going to go scorched earth now, on his way to getting clobbered in November.

So I'll cast my vote for Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson knowing that I'm voting for the only decent candidate in the race (well, maybe Jill Stein is decent too, I just don't know enough about her). 


Only thing I know about Jill Stien is that she has a warrant out for her arrest in a U.S. state for vandalizing private property. Not sure how that would affect her eligibility for office.

Sounds like a misdemeanor- she's a rank amateur. :) 

She's got a lot of work to do before she can get to the big leagues and approach Hillary's level of corruption.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #801 on: October 11, 2016, 03:08:57 PM »
Stick a fork in Trump, he's done.

Barring someone finding video footage of Hillary wiring the Twin Towers with explosives in the hours before 9-11 occurred, he has NO CHANCE of winning.

He's just going to go scorched earth now, on his way to getting clobbered in November.

So I'll cast my vote for Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson knowing that I'm voting for the only decent candidate in the race (well, maybe Jill Stein is decent too, I just don't know enough about her). 


Only thing I know about Jill Stien is that she has a warrant out for her arrest in a U.S. state for vandalizing private property. Not sure how that would affect her eligibility for office.

Sounds like a misdemeanor- she's a rank amateur. :) 

She's got a lot of work to do before she can get to the big leagues and approach Hillary's level of corruption.

True dat.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #802 on: October 11, 2016, 05:13:50 PM »
Stick a fork in Trump, he's done.

Barring someone finding video footage of Hillary wiring the Twin Towers with explosives in the hours before 9-11 occurred, he has NO CHANCE of winning.

He's just going to go scorched earth now, on his way to getting clobbered in November.

So I'll cast my vote for Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson knowing that I'm voting for the only decent candidate in the race (well, maybe Jill Stein is decent too, I just don't know enough about her). 


Only thing I know about Jill Stien is that she has a warrant out for her arrest in a U.S. state for vandalizing private property. Not sure how that would affect her eligibility for office.

Sounds like a misdemeanor- she's a rank amateur. :) 

She's got a lot of work to do before she can get to the big leagues and approach Hillary's level of corruption.
Unless the private property you vandalised is an entire middle eastern country, you don't get to brag much as an American president

ender

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #803 on: October 11, 2016, 07:38:18 PM »
This was far more enjoyable than the actual debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLYHu0AG8GI


daverobev

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #804 on: October 12, 2016, 08:49:23 AM »
Stick a fork in Trump, he's done.

Barring someone finding video footage of Hillary wiring the Twin Towers with explosives in the hours before 9-11 occurred, he has NO CHANCE of winning.

He's just going to go scorched earth now, on his way to getting clobbered in November.

So I'll cast my vote for Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson knowing that I'm voting for the only decent candidate in the race (well, maybe Jill Stein is decent too, I just don't know enough about her). 

I assume Hillary will be less dangerous than expected because she will do the bidding of her Goldman Sachs masters and won't mess up the stock market.

Dems and Reps, get your stuff together in 2020.  It's okay if one major party nominates a stinker candidate, but I've never seen both parties simultaneously screw do so before...

Say "Libertarian Gary Johnson" one more time.
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madgeylou

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #805 on: October 12, 2016, 05:31:22 PM »

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #806 on: October 12, 2016, 05:37:28 PM »
Stick a fork in Trump, he's done.

Barring someone finding video footage of Hillary wiring the Twin Towers with explosives in the hours before 9-11 occurred, he has NO CHANCE of winning.

He's just going to go scorched earth now, on his way to getting clobbered in November.

So I'll cast my vote for Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson knowing that I'm voting for the only decent candidate in the race (well, maybe Jill Stein is decent too, I just don't know enough about her). 

I assume Hillary will be less dangerous than expected because she will do the bidding of her Goldman Sachs masters and won't mess up the stock market.

Dems and Reps, get your stuff together in 2020.  It's okay if one major party nominates a stinker candidate, but I've never seen both parties simultaneously screw do so before...

Say "Libertarian Gary Johnson" one more time.
Libertarian Gary Johnson


cliffhanger

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #808 on: October 12, 2016, 06:55:44 PM »
This was far more enjoyable than the actual debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLYHu0AG8GI

I'll second that then follow up with the second debate.

https://youtu.be/jB2zoidUeLU

Metric Mouse

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #809 on: October 12, 2016, 07:00:42 PM »
Stick a fork in Trump, he's done.

Barring someone finding video footage of Hillary wiring the Twin Towers with explosives in the hours before 9-11 occurred, he has NO CHANCE of winning.

He's just going to go scorched earth now, on his way to getting clobbered in November.

So I'll cast my vote for Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson knowing that I'm voting for the only decent candidate in the race (well, maybe Jill Stein is decent too, I just don't know enough about her). 


Only thing I know about Jill Stien is that she has a warrant out for her arrest in a U.S. state for vandalizing private property. Not sure how that would affect her eligibility for office.

Sounds like a misdemeanor- she's a rank amateur. :) 

She's got a lot of work to do before she can get to the big leagues and approach Hillary's level of corruption.
Unless the private property you vandalised is an entire middle eastern country, you don't get to brag much as an American president

LOL. The stakes have certainly been raised, haven't they?  Used to be breaking into a hotel room was considered serious...
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dividendman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #810 on: October 12, 2016, 08:18:28 PM »
According to breaking news it looks like Trump was grabbing women by the pussy before he was famous.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #811 on: October 12, 2016, 08:30:21 PM »


I'm voting for the best candidate, Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson.

Gary Johnson wants to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). He believes that if a big corporation pollutes then we can just take that corporation to court. I'm sure a single attorney I hire is really going to succeed against a highly paid law firm representing a corporation that pollutes the environment.  Libertarianism is a pipe dream and really just becomes it's own form of capital cronyism.

Hillary isn't perfect but at least she would appoint someone to head the EPA who would stop polluters and make them pay up.

Telecaster

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #812 on: October 12, 2016, 09:20:48 PM »
Gary Johnson wants to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). He believes that if a big corporation pollutes then we can just take that corporation to court. I'm sure a single attorney I hire is really going to succeed against a highly paid law firm representing a corporation that pollutes the environment.  Libertarianism is a pipe dream and really just becomes it's own form of capital cronyism.


Thing is, if a big corporation pollutes you can sue them right now.  That by itself isn't enough.  You have to have some teeth.

Jeremy E.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #813 on: October 12, 2016, 09:45:33 PM »


I'm voting for the best candidate, Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson.

Gary Johnson wants to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). He believes that if a big corporation pollutes then we can just take that corporation to court. I'm sure a single attorney I hire is really going to succeed against a highly paid law firm representing a corporation that pollutes the environment.  Libertarianism is a pipe dream and really just becomes it's own form of capital cronyism.

Hillary isn't perfect but at least she would appoint someone to head the EPA who would stop polluters and make them pay up.
I'm not so sure... Hillary got $4.5 million from fossil fuel industry...
Hillary also approves of fracking while she does not approve of modern nuclear because it's too risky...
She also has changed her mind about the keystone pipeline multiple times,

Gary Johnson considered a carbon tax, and is looking for a way to deal with climate change that he can support.

aspiringnomad

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #814 on: October 12, 2016, 10:14:00 PM »
Gary Johnson seems like an awesome guy. I agree with him on several issues, and I really like that he's not going full on anarcho-capitalist-whatever just because he's the leader of the Libertarian party. But in watching his interviews, I've found him severely lacking intellectually. Worse than GWB, and I'm not just talking about "Aleppo, wtf is that?" I just can't go for that in a president, so I'll vote Clinton this year and hope the Republicans (or a third party) elect a non-clown in 2020 so there's an actual choice to be had.

cliffhanger

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #815 on: October 13, 2016, 05:47:59 AM »


I'm voting for the best candidate, Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson.

Gary Johnson wants to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). He believes that if a big corporation pollutes then we can just take that corporation to court. I'm sure a single attorney I hire is really going to succeed against a highly paid law firm representing a corporation that pollutes the environment.  Libertarianism is a pipe dream and really just becomes it's own form of capital cronyism.

Hillary isn't perfect but at least she would appoint someone to head the EPA who would stop polluters and make them pay up.

It's more likely she'll appoint someone who has made a large contribution to the DNC.

DavidAnnArbor

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #816 on: October 13, 2016, 07:29:16 AM »


I'm voting for the best candidate, Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson.

Gary Johnson wants to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). He believes that if a big corporation pollutes then we can just take that corporation to court. I'm sure a single attorney I hire is really going to succeed against a highly paid law firm representing a corporation that pollutes the environment.  Libertarianism is a pipe dream and really just becomes it's own form of capital cronyism.

Hillary isn't perfect but at least she would appoint someone to head the EPA who would stop polluters and make them pay up.

It's more likely she'll appoint someone who has made a large contribution to the DNC.

Senator Elizabeth Warren was put forward by Obama to run the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and it was shot down by the Republicans in the Senate. In a similar vein, Hillary would appoint competent knowledgeable experts to cabinet level posts.
If you vote for Gary Johnson he would abolish this agency altogether.

Regarding abolishing the EPA that Johnson wants to do, this would be disastrous for communities with pollution problems.
In Ann Arbor, there is a chemical called Dioxane - it has contaminated groundwater in an industrial site - it's close to the drinking water systems.
The multi-billion dollar corporation won't clean it up.
The Republican led State legislature is not passing a law that would increase the safety standard for Dioxane.
The EPA is probably the last chance for the city of Ann Arbor to not face a contaminated drinking water problem 5 years down the road. EPA would force the hand of Danaher corporation.
The courts are not required to make Danaher clean it up cause the company meets the bare minimum of cleaning - which science now shows is insufficient.

The problem is not Hillary's appointments to cabinet level posts, the problem is apathy by jaded voters who don't care about these or any issues and want a sound bite, like "I'm a Libertarian!", "She's Corrupt," "Emails"
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 07:31:51 AM by DavidAnnArbor »

MrMoogle

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #817 on: October 13, 2016, 07:47:13 AM »
Gary Johnson seems like an awesome guy. I agree with him on several issues, and I really like that he's not going full on anarcho-capitalist-whatever just because he's the leader of the Libertarian party. But in watching his interviews, I've found him severely lacking intellectually. Worse than GWB, and I'm not just talking about "Aleppo, wtf is that?" I just can't go for that in a president, so I'll vote Clinton this year and hope the Republicans (or a third party) elect a non-clown in 2020 so there's an actual choice to be had.
According to:
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/05/27/poindexter-in-chief-presidential-iqs-and-success-in-the-oval-office
GWB has an IQ of 124.8, which puts him in the top 5% of Americans.  Maybe speaking is not his forte, but that doesn't make him stupid.  It does put him near the bottom of US presidents.

I don't know GJ's IQ, and while he doesn't sound "intellectual," his ideas make sense to me. 

Hillary sounds elitist to me.  That doesn't mean she's necessarily going to be a bad president.

cliffhanger

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #818 on: October 13, 2016, 08:25:10 AM »


I'm voting for the best candidate, Libertarian Governor Gary Johnson.

Gary Johnson wants to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). He believes that if a big corporation pollutes then we can just take that corporation to court. I'm sure a single attorney I hire is really going to succeed against a highly paid law firm representing a corporation that pollutes the environment.  Libertarianism is a pipe dream and really just becomes it's own form of capital cronyism.

Hillary isn't perfect but at least she would appoint someone to head the EPA who would stop polluters and make them pay up.

It's more likely she'll appoint someone who has made a large contribution to the DNC.

Senator Elizabeth Warren was put forward by Obama to run the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and it was shot down by the Republicans in the Senate. In a similar vein, Hillary would appoint competent knowledgeable experts to cabinet level posts.
If you vote for Gary Johnson he would abolish this agency altogether.

Regarding abolishing the EPA that Johnson wants to do, this would be disastrous for communities with pollution problems.
In Ann Arbor, there is a chemical called Dioxane - it has contaminated groundwater in an industrial site - it's close to the drinking water systems.
The multi-billion dollar corporation won't clean it up.
The Republican led State legislature is not passing a law that would increase the safety standard for Dioxane.
The EPA is probably the last chance for the city of Ann Arbor to not face a contaminated drinking water problem 5 years down the road. EPA would force the hand of Danaher corporation.
The courts are not required to make Danaher clean it up cause the company meets the bare minimum of cleaning - which science now shows is insufficient.

The problem is not Hillary's appointments to cabinet level posts, the problem is apathy by jaded voters who don't care about these or any issues and want a sound bite, like "I'm a Libertarian!", "She's Corrupt," "Emails"

I was referring to the Wikileaks emails of the DNC, where it appears that foreign ambassadorships were given to large donors. Now I'm sure cabinet positions will be considered with more scrutiny, but it does bring into question the integrity of the selection process. So yes, it's possible there will be problems with Clinton's appointments.

It seems like you are taking a 'holier than thou' attitude when it comes to this election by blaming voters who think differently than you. How about pointing out the flaws of the candidates and using data to assist your own decision? For example, you clearly see "emails" as a sound bite, but it appears to me that government is going through great lengths to protect their own from the law. I think that is a dangerous road to follow, so I will not vote for the candidate that will likely perpetuate this (Clinton).

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #819 on: October 13, 2016, 08:31:09 AM »
I was referring to the Wikileaks emails of the DNC, where it appears that foreign ambassadorships were given to large donors. Now I'm sure cabinet positions will be considered with more scrutiny, but it does bring into question the integrity of the selection process. So yes, it's possible there will be problems with Clinton's appointments.
It's been the case for decades that the post of US Ambassador in London is a reward for donations to the President's campaign, and the Ambassador is someone who is wealthy and socially connected, and entertains on a grand scale to match the grand Ambassadorial residence in Regent's Park.

The real work is done by a career diplomat who is Deputy Ambassador.
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deadlymonkey

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #820 on: October 13, 2016, 09:26:39 AM »
Yeah I think it has been known for a long time that ambassadorships to low risk countries are patronage based.  Most of western Europe and some south american countries come to mind.  Russia, China, Middle East....all "risky" positions so they put actual diplomats there.  Either way, the staff does the hard work, the appointee just gets the photo ops.


Kris

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #821 on: October 13, 2016, 09:31:51 AM »
Well, Trump is now basically acting like a cornered animal. Which means he's going to be more and more dangerous. Look to him lashing out in every direction to try to wound, maim, and kill anyone who doesn't 100% support him.

He "doesn't" lose. Except he is losing. His pride will never take this sitting down. And don't forget what he has said: if someone hits him, he hits back ten times harder. If "America" hits him, he will do everything he can to hit America back. And now he's got an army of goons to help him.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #822 on: October 13, 2016, 09:50:25 AM »
Well, Trump is now basically acting like a cornered animal. Which means he's going to be more and more dangerous. Look to him lashing out in every direction to try to wound, maim, and kill anyone who doesn't 100% support him.

He "doesn't" lose. Except he is losing. His pride will never take this sitting down. And don't forget what he has said: if someone hits him, he hits back ten times harder. If "America" hits him, he will do everything he can to hit America back. And now he's got an army of goons to help him.

Maybe H will make Trump the ambassador to Saudi Arabia and once he man-handles his first local they'll chop off his head.

Kris

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #823 on: October 13, 2016, 09:58:52 AM »
Well, Trump is now basically acting like a cornered animal. Which means he's going to be more and more dangerous. Look to him lashing out in every direction to try to wound, maim, and kill anyone who doesn't 100% support him.

He "doesn't" lose. Except he is losing. His pride will never take this sitting down. And don't forget what he has said: if someone hits him, he hits back ten times harder. If "America" hits him, he will do everything he can to hit America back. And now he's got an army of goons to help him.

Maybe H will make Trump the ambassador to Saudi Arabia and once he man-handles his first local they'll chop off his head.

Oooohhhhh...
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #824 on: October 13, 2016, 09:59:08 AM »
Well, Trump is now basically acting like a cornered animal. Which means he's going to be more and more dangerous. Look to him lashing out in every direction to try to wound, maim, and kill anyone who doesn't 100% support him.

He "doesn't" lose. Except he is losing. His pride will never take this sitting down. And don't forget what he has said: if someone hits him, he hits back ten times harder. If "America" hits him, he will do everything he can to hit America back. And now he's got an army of goons to help him.

Maybe H will make Trump the ambassador to Saudi Arabia and once he man-handles his first local they'll chop off his head.

Diplomatic Immunity

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #825 on: October 13, 2016, 11:35:55 AM »
Well, Trump is now basically acting like a cornered animal. Which means he's going to be more and more dangerous. Look to him lashing out in every direction to try to wound, maim, and kill anyone who doesn't 100% support him.

He "doesn't" lose. Except he is losing. His pride will never take this sitting down. And don't forget what he has said: if someone hits him, he hits back ten times harder. If "America" hits him, he will do everything he can to hit America back. And now he's got an army of goons to help him.

Maybe H will make Trump the ambassador to Saudi Arabia and once he man-handles his first local they'll chop off his head.

Diplomatic Immunity

Congress just passed that crazy legislation potentially removing sovereign immunity, specifically directed at Saudi Arabia. So, maybe not.
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cliffhanger

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #826 on: October 13, 2016, 11:37:51 AM »
I was referring to the Wikileaks emails of the DNC, where it appears that foreign ambassadorships were given to large donors. Now I'm sure cabinet positions will be considered with more scrutiny, but it does bring into question the integrity of the selection process. So yes, it's possible there will be problems with Clinton's appointments.
It's been the case for decades that the post of US Ambassador in London is a reward for donations to the President's campaign, and the Ambassador is someone who is wealthy and socially connected, and entertains on a grand scale to match the grand Ambassadorial residence in Regent's Park.

The real work is done by a career diplomat who is Deputy Ambassador.

Yeah I think it has been known for a long time that ambassadorships to low risk countries are patronage based.  Most of western Europe and some south american countries come to mind.  Russia, China, Middle East....all "risky" positions so they put actual diplomats there.  Either way, the staff does the hard work, the appointee just gets the photo ops.

I apologize that I wasn't aware of that and should have used a different example. Not that I approve of this behavior for any candidate!

Again, according to the leaks, Tim Kaine appears to have been chosen at least a year in advance for Vice President. It's plausible that he was given a deal for stepping down and letting DWS sit as chair of the DNC. Even if his selection as VP was not politically motivated, it looks shady. I don't see it reasonable to assume a President Clinton will only appoint qualified people for important positions, while a President Trump will appoint buffoons.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #827 on: October 13, 2016, 11:50:29 AM »
I was referring to the Wikileaks emails of the DNC, where it appears that foreign ambassadorships were given to large donors. Now I'm sure cabinet positions will be considered with more scrutiny, but it does bring into question the integrity of the selection process. So yes, it's possible there will be problems with Clinton's appointments.
It's been the case for decades that the post of US Ambassador in London is a reward for donations to the President's campaign, and the Ambassador is someone who is wealthy and socially connected, and entertains on a grand scale to match the grand Ambassadorial residence in Regent's Park.

The real work is done by a career diplomat who is Deputy Ambassador.

Yeah I think it has been known for a long time that ambassadorships to low risk countries are patronage based.  Most of western Europe and some south american countries come to mind.  Russia, China, Middle East....all "risky" positions so they put actual diplomats there.  Either way, the staff does the hard work, the appointee just gets the photo ops.

I apologize that I wasn't aware of that and should have used a different example. Not that I approve of this behavior for any candidate!

Again, according to the leaks, Tim Kaine appears to have been chosen at least a year in advance for Vice President. It's plausible that he was given a deal for stepping down and letting DWS sit as chair of the DNC. Even if his selection as VP was not politically motivated, it looks shady. I don't see it reasonable to assume a President Clinton will only appoint qualified people for important positions, while a President Trump will appoint buffoons.

No doubt that Kaine was at least on a shortlist way out.  He was Obama's number one pick, but Kaine deferred saying the Obama needed someone who is a bit more of a blue collar bruiser and recommended Biden.  Kaine has been at or near the top of the democrats lists for a long time now.  Glad he finally is getting the shot.  I think the evidence shows that historically Clinton has chosen associates well, and those associates are remarkably loyal.  Most of her inner circle has stayed with her for years.

Trump on the other hand inspires no loyalty with people outside his family and tends to hire people that he can bully or manipulate and then toss away whenever it suits him.  I have seen no evidence of him looking around the conservative field and choosing the best and brightest to advise or guide him. 

Lagom

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #828 on: October 13, 2016, 11:56:39 AM »
This article provides a pretty good insight on why many rural white Americans support Trump, and it's not simple bigotry, at least not exactly. A pretty balanced and interesting view, I would say. As always, empathy will take us further than hate if we truly want to move forward as a country.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #829 on: October 13, 2016, 12:30:41 PM »
I constantly tell my friends here in Seattle we live in a bubble.  Even the GOPers I know here hate Trump.  But I spend A LOT of time in the rural areas of the Pacific NW, AK, and MT.  I have meals in small dinners and tip a couple in the local watering holes.  And I like to talk to people.

In the past 6 months here's what I've digested about Trump supporters from my limited poll:

--rural folks with little education feel there are fewer and fewer job options
--land owners feel squeezed by more land use restrictions regarding streams/wetlands (whether or not a reality) and lower margins for farming, livestock, and timber.
--are bewildered by the cultural changes - gay marriage, gender neutral, changing racial makeup, dwindling religion attendance
--lack of help in helping their kids get ahead - they don't know about college -how can they get financial help.
--the feds are not investing in rural interests.

That is my take.  Some of the folks I talked to are very insightful folks and frame this discussion in a wish for a more vibrant rural - government connection.   Others are bigots and assholes.   But - you can frame the urban-liberal in an analogous manner.

I should add - for the more thoughtful discussions I ask but why support Trump given the obvious personal stability flaws and lack of knowledge.  The response has been uniform - H is too slick, and while there is risk with Trump they would rather take chances with him -- even over a more conventional GOPer - what the heck, maybe he can shake things up.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 12:32:58 PM by Northwestie »

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #830 on: October 13, 2016, 03:02:21 PM »
Honestly it seems our biggest embarrassment right now is the absurd number of mass shootings we deal with relative to other well off western countries. But overall violence is still down in most of our cities.

I'm generally a fan of the States, and agree that there are a lot of great things about the country . . . but the biggest embarrassment that I can see (and sadly one that few Americans seem to care about at all) has to do with the US's war of terror.

America has illegally kidnapped and tortured hundreds of people, many who admittedly had nothing to do with terror.  No trial, no due process, no compensation, nobody punished for doing this.  The US is regularly performing illegal drone strikes in northern Pakistan and Afghanistan that kill civilians.  In Afghanistan, the States has a record of putting child molesters in positions of power and then ignoring the victims of the child abuse when they complain.  After all this, the US still has the temerity to criticize the human rights actions of other countries, and act disturbed when others perform similar acts of terrorism.

That's the biggest embarrassment externally, from another nation's point of view, I think.

There are two big ones to me, internally:
1) What that war on terror has done to civil rights of our citizens (drones to kill our own citizens without due process, TSA and the like violating us when flying, NSA monitoring all citizens, not just ones suspected of things, etc.)

2) The war on drugs, and what that has done to our prison population.  The racial bias and unfairness of our judicial system is tied in with this as well.

Basically things tied to fear and authoritarianism.

I 100% agree. I stopped flying until the TSA toned it down, but it's still too much. And it's sad for those of us with young children that these practices are normalized.


FIRE Artist

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #831 on: October 13, 2016, 03:10:24 PM »
This came through my Medium feed, looks to be right on topic, presents views from various Trump supporters.

https://thearcmag.com/why-im-voting-for-trump-d86b1786fbbe#.hzme371ah

LeRainDrop

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #832 on: October 13, 2016, 04:09:46 PM »
This article provides a pretty good insight on why many rural white Americans support Trump, and it's not simple bigotry, at least not exactly. A pretty balanced and interesting view, I would say. As always, empathy will take us further than hate if we truly want to move forward as a country.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

Thanks for sharing this.  It was insightful, and I agree with your comments.  It is better to understand where people are really coming from, especially when you disagree with their opinions.

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #833 on: October 13, 2016, 04:35:55 PM »
.......that said, it still is stunning to me that folks who desperately want a change from the status quo will throw their lot in with Trump.   He is an ignorant and vulgar person who is denigrating even the already lowly presidential election process.  I will be so glad when Nov 4 rolls around and this clown is buried.

Lagom

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #834 on: October 13, 2016, 04:49:42 PM »
.......that said, it still is stunning to me that folks who desperately want a change from the status quo will throw their lot in with Trump.   He is an ignorant and vulgar person who is denigrating even the already lowly presidential election process.  I will be so glad when Nov 4 rolls around and this clown is buried.

I mean, I agree with you, but I really do think the article I linked makes a good point about how many of us regularly embrace pretty questionable characters as long as they dish out to our "enemies" what "they have coming." While no one thinking rationally can honestly claim that Trump resembles any kind of reasonable candidate (although many continue to try!), I can totally empathize with the attitude of feeling powerless, and wanting someone to burn the house down around the powerful jerks who I think created that powerlessness while they ignored/condescended/ridiculed me and my community. 

Obviously, I disagree with them (as does the author of the article), but their stance is actually fairly rational, given the context they are coming from. And if we really want to heal this divide, we need to take that into account.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 05:50:56 PM by Lagom »

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #835 on: October 13, 2016, 05:01:28 PM »
I agree with most of your analysis.  And both parties need to think more about our social and material infrastructure - we are investing in neither.  Do we really need to be spending more in defense than the next 7 countries combined?  Can't this money be put to better use investing in our people and infrastructure that, ultimately, will make our country stronger and saner?

I empathize with these folks who feel disenfranchised from what looks like a turnstile of political elites from both parties.  But a protest vote for this creep is unfathomable to me.  But I never thought he would win the GOP primaries. 

Likely the GOP will do another post-mortem as they did last time and decide the really need to turn things around.   And the base will next time around nominate Voldemort.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #836 on: October 13, 2016, 05:43:48 PM »
.......that said, it still is stunning to me that folks who desperately want a change from the status quo will throw their lot in with Trump.   He is an ignorant and vulgar person who is denigrating even the already lowly presidential election process.  I will be so glad when Nov 4 rolls around and this clown is buried.

I think the part a lot of "intellectuals" don't realize is that when they make statements like this, it comes across as incredibly dismissive to entire segments of the population.

Which then incentivizes them to vote for people like Trump even more, because someone such as yourself is conveying an attitude of "well, if you only knew what was good for you, you'd vote my way!"


Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #837 on: October 13, 2016, 05:50:02 PM »
Intellectual?  It really doesn't take much more than a little bit of logic to see Trump is utterly unqualified for the job at hand.  If the motto is "let's burn it all down and start again" - then no, that doesn't make much sense.

And given the pandering of Trump views that are racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, and just plain vulgar - it may say more about the folks voting for him than it does about his lack of decorum.   

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #838 on: October 13, 2016, 06:00:54 PM »
And given the pandering of Trump views that are racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, and just plain vulgar - it may say more about the folks voting for him than it does about his lack of decorum.

You are just reinforcing Ender's point.  Responding to his post with this shows you don't understand what he was saying, at all.

Your loathing of Trump is justified (IMO).  Your rude condescension towards his supporters is not.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #839 on: October 13, 2016, 06:31:28 PM »
Again, according to the leaks, Tim Kaine appears to have been chosen at least a year in advance for Vice President. It's plausible that he was given a deal for stepping down and letting DWS sit as chair of the DNC. Even if his selection as VP was not politically motivated, it looks shady.

Of course it was politically motivated.   How could it not be?   It is a political position.

But there is nothing necessarily wrong or unethical about working out a deal, even in politics.  Kaine is as qualified as anybody to be VP.  He was a popular mayor, Lt. governor, governor, and US Senator.  Running for president takes at least two solid years of pre-planning.  Trying to get all the pieces together a year in advance is common sense.   HRC got the guy she wanted for VP, and the person she wanted for DNC chair.  I didn't see that bribery or graft was involved getting the table set. 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #840 on: October 13, 2016, 11:21:43 PM »
I empathize with these folks who feel disenfranchised from what looks like a turnstile of political elites from both parties.  But a protest vote for this creep is unfathomable to me.  But I never thought he would win the GOP primaries. 

I think this is interesting. Trump's made it further than anyone's ever thought he could. Win lose or draw, it'll be an interesting election.

And in the end, since Republicians will hold congress, things will continue to be all right in beaver-cleaverville.
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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #841 on: October 14, 2016, 07:19:58 AM »
And given the pandering of Trump views that are racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, and just plain vulgar - it may say more about the folks voting for him than it does about his lack of decorum.

You are just reinforcing Ender's point.  Responding to his post with this shows you don't understand what he was saying, at all.

Your loathing of Trump is justified (IMO).  Your rude condescension towards his supporters is not.

You know, it's possible to be populist without being a bigot. I can empathize with people who vote for the former, but not the latter!

MrDelane

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #842 on: October 14, 2016, 07:50:34 AM »
I will be so glad when Nov 4 rolls around and this clown is buried.

FYI, election day is November 8th.


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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #843 on: October 14, 2016, 07:58:01 AM »
I empathize with these folks who feel disenfranchised from what looks like a turnstile of political elites from both parties.  But a protest vote for this creep is unfathomable to me.  But I never thought he would win the GOP primaries. 

I think this is interesting. Trump's made it further than anyone's ever thought he could. Win lose or draw, it'll be an interesting election.

And in the end, since Republicians will hold congress, things will continue to be all right in beaver-cleaverville.

There's a strong chance that the Republican controlled Senate would flip toward the Democrats, Clinton appoints a more liberal justice, and the current stay on the "Clean Power Plan" imposed by the Supreme Court would be lifted. This plan would greatly reduce carbon emissions from coal-fired power plants, a huge step and the minimum needed toward averting climate disaster.

This wouldn't be good for coal miners, although Clinton has a plan to assist miners, but that would have to pass the House of Representatives and the Republicans would not pass economic aid to coal miners.

If there's enough of a blowout election for Clinton then there's a chance that the gerrymandered House of Representatives could flip toward the Democrats, and legislation like an infrastructure (trains, roads, water safety)  bill as well as aid toward families, children, parental leave, etc. could be enacted.
 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #844 on: October 14, 2016, 08:37:44 AM »
And given the pandering of Trump views that are racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, and just plain vulgar - it may say more about the folks voting for him than it does about his lack of decorum.

You are just reinforcing Ender's point.  Responding to his post with this shows you don't understand what he was saying, at all.

Your loathing of Trump is justified (IMO).  Your rude condescension towards his supporters is not.
I agree.  While a lot of what Northwestie says makes sense, he/she then throws something like this in, and I then disregard everything else said.  I guess maybe it was said to people who think little of the opposition instead of a general audience.  I've said this before, but all the Trump voters I know aren't for Trump, they're against Hillary.  But none I know voted for him during the primaries either, so it's only a small sample of Trump voters.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #845 on: October 14, 2016, 08:45:23 AM »
And given the pandering of Trump views that are racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, and just plain vulgar - it may say more about the folks voting for him than it does about his lack of decorum.

You are just reinforcing Ender's point.  Responding to his post with this shows you don't understand what he was saying, at all.

Your loathing of Trump is justified (IMO).  Your rude condescension towards his supporters is not.
I agree.  While a lot of what Northwestie says makes sense, he/she then throws something like this in, and I then disregard everything else said.  I guess maybe it was said to people who think little of the opposition instead of a general audience.  I've said this before, but all the Trump voters I know aren't for Trump, they're against Hillary.  But none I know voted for him during the primaries either, so it's only a small sample of Trump voters.

I think part of the problem unpacking this is that Trump will say something horrible, and people at his rallies will cheer. At that point, it becomes difficult to separate his rhetoric from his supporters.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #846 on: October 14, 2016, 08:47:04 AM »
I just finished reading the following book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_(book)

I'm still digesting the author's theories, though I have to admit than much of what is happening during this election seems to give credence to those theories.  It's a very interesting book and I recommend it if you are trying to figure out how liberals and conservatives think.

I've read a number of posts suggesting empathy toward those on the other side of the political debate.  Lakoff argues that empathy is part of the liberal moral code and not part of the conservative moral code.  This means that we cannot even agree to try to understand the other side.  In the conservative world, if you are not moral (i.e., in agreement with my moral world view), you must be immoral and should be stopped.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #847 on: October 14, 2016, 09:12:20 AM »
And given the pandering of Trump views that are racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, and just plain vulgar - it may say more about the folks voting for him than it does about his lack of decorum.

You are just reinforcing Ender's point.  Responding to his post with this shows you don't understand what he was saying, at all.

Your loathing of Trump is justified (IMO).  Your rude condescension towards his supporters is not.
I agree.  While a lot of what Northwestie says makes sense, he/she then throws something like this in, and I then disregard everything else said.  I guess maybe it was said to people who think little of the opposition instead of a general audience.  I've said this before, but all the Trump voters I know aren't for Trump, they're against Hillary.  But none I know voted for him during the primaries either, so it's only a small sample of Trump voters.

I think part of the problem unpacking this is that Trump will say something horrible, and people at his rallies will cheer. At that point, it becomes difficult to separate his rhetoric from his supporters.
Sure, but you don't think everyone who votes for him would cheer?  A lot of that is also pack mentality(I'm sure there's a technical term to it), where he could say anything and the crowd would cheer.

MrMoogle

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #848 on: October 14, 2016, 09:22:33 AM »
I just finished reading the following book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Politics_(book)

I'm still digesting the author's theories, though I have to admit than much of what is happening during this election seems to give credence to those theories.  It's a very interesting book and I recommend it if you are trying to figure out how liberals and conservatives think.

I've read a number of posts suggesting empathy toward those on the other side of the political debate.  Lakoff argues that empathy is part of the liberal moral code and not part of the conservative moral code.  This means that we cannot even agree to try to understand the other side.  In the conservative world, if you are not moral (i.e., in agreement with my moral world view), you must be immoral and should be stopped.
I can understand this to a point.  I would argue conservatives have empathy, but the line of that empathy only goes so far.  I would guess few conservatives have empathy for Hitler, but you could argue he was trying to make a better world.  It's a stretch for me.  I doubt many liberals are empathetic to Hitler, but I could be wrong.

If you believe abortion is murder, it's hard to have empathy for people supporting mass murder on the order of the Holocaust, as my father puts it. 

And of course, different conservatives have different levels of empathy.

I do think, if you want to change someone's mind, you'll need empathy to do it.  And as a country, we would all be better with more empathy.

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #849 on: October 14, 2016, 10:04:46 AM »
I will be so glad when Nov 4 rolls around and this clown is buried.

FYI, election day is November 8th.

It's a good thing we use mail in ballots in WA then!  (duh)