Author Topic: Trump Voters.... why?  (Read 216053 times)

Northwestie

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #400 on: August 26, 2016, 01:46:39 PM »
It would be really disappointing not really but it would depend on whats inside the magazine. I dont think Ivanka would do that, although she does have a very nice figure. Ive said if Ivanka werent my daughter, perhaps Id be dating her. - Trump discussing if his daughter would pose in Playboy

holy shit, really?
I'm just floored.
how is this man running for president?

The guy is a moron.  It says mounds about the GOP voters.

jim555

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #401 on: August 26, 2016, 03:46:58 PM »
It would be really disappointing not really but it would depend on whats inside the magazine. I dont think Ivanka would do that, although she does have a very nice figure. Ive said if Ivanka werent my daughter, perhaps Id be dating her. - Trump discussing if his daughter would pose in Playboy

holy shit, really?
I'm just floored.
how is this man running for president?

The guy is a moron.  It says mounds about the GOP voters.
Creepy, inappropriate, and disgusting.  Even if he thinks it he should know enough never to say stuff like that in public.  This guy is a real low life.

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #402 on: August 26, 2016, 03:56:45 PM »
Trumps strength is not racism; it's nationalism. Many want Americans first. I can't blame them. We have been sold out. 90% of my industry was moved. Who's left? The best of the best and they are disgusted to see what has happened to our country/middle class. They want the government to quit wasting money/asking for more/ and they want their jobs back. If you witnessed the tech bubble and it took 90% of what you had financially (company stock) then had to fire 90% of your workers because the jobs went to Singapore or Phillipines or Vietnam-- then went through 2008 and lost out on housing investments and people try to tell you how great our policies are for Americans-- yeah, you would be pissed. Very pissed. And they are.

Unlike the Millennials they remember what was. They know we got sold out and they are the majority. It's a Genx financial world and its about to get X rated

Glenstache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #403 on: August 26, 2016, 04:31:40 PM »
Trumps strength is not racism; it's nationalism. Many want Americans first. I can't blame them. We have been sold out. 90% of my industry was moved. Who's left? The best of the best and they are disgusted to see what has happened to our country/middle class. They want the government to quit wasting money/asking for more/ and they want their jobs back. If you witnessed the tech bubble and it took 90% of what you had financially (company stock) then had to fire 90% of your workers because the jobs went to Singapore or Phillipines or Vietnam-- then went through 2008 and lost out on housing investments and people try to tell you how great our policies are for Americans-- yeah, you would be pissed. Very pissed. And they are.

Unlike the Millennials they remember what was. They know we got sold out and they are the majority. It's a Genx financial world and its about to get X rated

And yet his policies still do nothing to help them. Trickle down just doesn't work.

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #404 on: August 26, 2016, 04:37:29 PM »
Trumps strength is not racism; it's nationalism. Many want Americans first. I can't blame them. We have been sold out. 90% of my industry was moved. Who's left? The best of the best and they are disgusted to see what has happened to our country/middle class. They want the government to quit wasting money/asking for more/ and they want their jobs back. If you witnessed the tech bubble and it took 90% of what you had financially (company stock) then had to fire 90% of your workers because the jobs went to Singapore or Phillipines or Vietnam-- then went through 2008 and lost out on housing investments and people try to tell you how great our policies are for Americans-- yeah, you would be pissed. Very pissed. And they are.

Unlike the Millennials they remember what was. They know we got sold out and they are the majority. It's a Genx financial world and its about to get X rated

And yet his policies still do nothing to help them. Trickle down just doesn't work.

They don't care. They are one step short of pitchforks, torches, and ropes

Midwest

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #405 on: August 26, 2016, 04:44:21 PM »
Trumps strength is not racism; it's nationalism. Many want Americans first. I can't blame them. We have been sold out. 90% of my industry was moved. Who's left? The best of the best and they are disgusted to see what has happened to our country/middle class. They want the government to quit wasting money/asking for more/ and they want their jobs back. If you witnessed the tech bubble and it took 90% of what you had financially (company stock) then had to fire 90% of your workers because the jobs went to Singapore or Phillipines or Vietnam-- then went through 2008 and lost out on housing investments and people try to tell you how great our policies are for Americans-- yeah, you would be pissed. Very pissed. And they are.

Unlike the Millennials they remember what was. They know we got sold out and they are the majority. It's a Genx financial world and its about to get X rated

And yet his policies still do nothing to help them. Trickle down just doesn't work.

The democrats have had 8 years to help the middle class.  Hillary wants 8 more.  If one party hasn't helped you enough, it's not illogical to want a change.  Especially one that promises to bring back the jobs. 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #406 on: August 26, 2016, 04:58:12 PM »
Trumps strength is not racism; it's nationalism. Many want Americans first. I can't blame them. We have been sold out. 90% of my industry was moved. Who's left? The best of the best and they are disgusted to see what has happened to our country/middle class. They want the government to quit wasting money/asking for more/ and they want their jobs back. If you witnessed the tech bubble and it took 90% of what you had financially (company stock) then had to fire 90% of your workers because the jobs went to Singapore or Phillipines or Vietnam-- then went through 2008 and lost out on housing investments and people try to tell you how great our policies are for Americans-- yeah, you would be pissed. Very pissed. And they are.

Unlike the Millennials they remember what was. They know we got sold out and they are the majority. It's a Genx financial world and its about to get X rated

And yet his policies still do nothing to help them. Trickle down just doesn't work.

The democrats have had 8 years to help the middle class.  Hillary wants 8 more.  If one party hasn't helped you enough, it's not illogical to want a change.  Especially one that promises to bring back the jobs.
I agree with and understand what you are saying. I understand that people will vote for trump for these reasons. That does not sprinkle fairy dust on what he has said he will do (which is remarkably thin on details) and make it work, or make it work better than the status quo for that matter.

Glenstache

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #407 on: August 26, 2016, 05:05:04 PM »
It is also worth asking if the last 8 years of Democrat policy was actually better for the middle class than GOP policy would have been ( in practice it was a hybrid despite the government shutdowns). Luckily, we have an austerity laboratory (Europe), where austerity policies did not work well and are less and less popular through time.

Midwest

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #408 on: August 26, 2016, 05:09:55 PM »
Trumps strength is not racism; it's nationalism. Many want Americans first. I can't blame them. We have been sold out. 90% of my industry was moved. Who's left? The best of the best and they are disgusted to see what has happened to our country/middle class. They want the government to quit wasting money/asking for more/ and they want their jobs back. If you witnessed the tech bubble and it took 90% of what you had financially (company stock) then had to fire 90% of your workers because the jobs went to Singapore or Phillipines or Vietnam-- then went through 2008 and lost out on housing investments and people try to tell you how great our policies are for Americans-- yeah, you would be pissed. Very pissed. And they are.

Unlike the Millennials they remember what was. They know we got sold out and they are the majority. It's a Genx financial world and its about to get X rated

And yet his policies still do nothing to help them. Trickle down just doesn't work.

The democrats have had 8 years to help the middle class.  Hillary wants 8 more.  If one party hasn't helped you enough, it's not illogical to want a change.  Especially one that promises to bring back the jobs.
I agree with and understand what you are saying. I understand that people will vote for trump for these reasons. That does not sprinkle fairy dust on what he has said he will do (which is remarkably thin on details) and make it work, or make it work better than the status quo for that matter.

I'm not saying it will or won't work, I'm saying the democrats have had 8 years and want more.  It's not stupid or unreasonable to vote them out if you perceive they have failed. 

If his policies won't work, what is Hillary proposing?  Raising the min wage to 15 an hour and free college?   

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #409 on: August 26, 2016, 05:12:46 PM »
Trumps strength is not racism; it's nationalism. Many want Americans first. I can't blame them. We have been sold out. 90% of my industry was moved. Who's left? The best of the best and they are disgusted to see what has happened to our country/middle class. They want the government to quit wasting money/asking for more/ and they want their jobs back. If you witnessed the tech bubble and it took 90% of what you had financially (company stock) then had to fire 90% of your workers because the jobs went to Singapore or Phillipines or Vietnam-- then went through 2008 and lost out on housing investments and people try to tell you how great our policies are for Americans-- yeah, you would be pissed. Very pissed. And they are.

Unlike the Millennials they remember what was. They know we got sold out and they are the majority. It's a Genx financial world and its about to get X rated

And yet his policies still do nothing to help them. Trickle down just doesn't work.

The democrats have had 8 years to help the middle class.  Hillary wants 8 more.  If one party hasn't helped you enough, it's not illogical to want a change.  Especially one that promises to bring back the jobs.
I agree with and understand what you are saying. I understand that people will vote for trump for these reasons. That does not sprinkle fairy dust on what he has said he will do (which is remarkably thin on details) and make it work, or make it work better than the status quo for that matter.

You want to know why they will vote for Trump. Well I just told why every single person I work with is. I'm just the new guy.

One of them lost 700K in the tech bubble. Look at the Nasdaq. Go a head and try to tell him to index. Do you think he gives one single fuck about political correctness? Nope. He will vote for Trump period.

I forgot to mention that they are also concerned about what judicial appointees will do to general policies
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 07:07:05 PM by mrpercentage »

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #410 on: August 26, 2016, 09:39:41 PM »
Trumps strength is not racism; it's nationalism. Many want Americans first. I can't blame them. We have been sold out. 90% of my industry was moved. Who's left? The best of the best and they are disgusted to see what has happened to our country/middle class. They want the government to quit wasting money/asking for more/ and they want their jobs back. If you witnessed the tech bubble and it took 90% of what you had financially (company stock) then had to fire 90% of your workers because the jobs went to Singapore or Phillipines or Vietnam-- then went through 2008 and lost out on housing investments and people try to tell you how great our policies are for Americans-- yeah, you would be pissed. Very pissed. And they are.
But it wasn't the Mexican fruit pickers who foreclosed on their houses, it wasn't black teenagers that moved their jobs to China and it wasn't gays that automated the steel plants. It was white billionaire liars

 

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #411 on: August 26, 2016, 09:46:13 PM »
Trumps strength is not racism; it's nationalism. Many want Americans first. I can't blame them. We have been sold out. 90% of my industry was moved. Who's left? The best of the best and they are disgusted to see what has happened to our country/middle class. They want the government to quit wasting money/asking for more/ and they want their jobs back. If you witnessed the tech bubble and it took 90% of what you had financially (company stock) then had to fire 90% of your workers because the jobs went to Singapore or Phillipines or Vietnam-- then went through 2008 and lost out on housing investments and people try to tell you how great our policies are for Americans-- yeah, you would be pissed. Very pissed. And they are.
But it wasn't the Mexican fruit pickers who foreclosed on their houses, it wasn't black teenagers that moved their jobs to China and it wasn't gays that automated the steel plants. It was white billionaire liars

Nafta bro. That and the Trans Pacific that is killing this particular industry. You must not remember $400 Poineer CD players. Electronics got cheaper but we lost a lot of middle class who paid taxes and bought things like clothes, books, and cars. You cut off income to this country and you cut your own throat. It just comes ten years later and is blamed on the wrong people

The money just goes where the incentives are. Right now they are off shores. Just ask Tim Fucking Cook. And I love Apple. Fuck. Sorry I'm drinking. It's Friday night
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 09:59:14 PM by mrpercentage »

Abe

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #412 on: August 26, 2016, 10:21:32 PM »
It's funny that a candidate that so despises "losers" attracts people who have lost in the modern economy. I'm sure his team of big-name fund managers will know how to help the poor under-employed workers with little assets to invest. That is of course their expertise. Maybe after they are done blaming everyone even lower on the economic totem pole, Trump supporters will choose an as-yet-unamed advocate for their actual best interests.

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #413 on: August 26, 2016, 10:30:09 PM »
It's funny that a candidate that so despises "losers" attracts people who have lost in the modern economy. I'm sure his team of big-name fund managers will know how to help the poor under-employed workers with little assets to invest. That is of course their expertise. Maybe after they are done blaming everyone even lower on the economic totem pole, Trump supporters will choose an as-yet-unamed advocate for their actual best interests.

You obviously have not lost 90% of your industry that was middle class good paying jobs. Clinton's sold us out. You will have a hard time convincing me that my coworkers laying off their friends so that some guy in asia can do the same hard work for $300 a month is just. Not to mention you just cut of a $40,000 a year job that was paying taxes. Maybe we wouldn't have a deficit problem. You ever think of that? Probably not. You are not a capitalist. If you are you are batting for yourself or the other team.

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #414 on: August 26, 2016, 11:17:56 PM »

arebelspy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #415 on: August 26, 2016, 11:35:19 PM »
What's with flipping off the forum, and your signature?
We are two former teachers who accumulated a bunch of real estate, retired at 29, and now travel the world full time with two kids.
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mrpercentage

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #416 on: August 27, 2016, 12:20:51 AM »
Won't really let me reply. But you know this mr [low battery]. Whatever. You never risked  your life for nothing let alone the American People
« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 12:27:28 AM by mrpercentage »

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #417 on: August 27, 2016, 12:31:07 AM »
I am sick of this fat rich my daddy paid for my college so I forgot the middle class who actually watch my ass and confront murders who are armed with 3' shanks with only mace... and Im cool because daddy paid for college.. well I speak for the many when I say fuck you.. I mean it.

mrpercentage

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #418 on: August 27, 2016, 12:33:35 AM »
Im voting for Trump

FIreDrill

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #419 on: August 27, 2016, 12:42:44 AM »
Well that escalated quickly......

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arebelspy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #420 on: August 27, 2016, 12:51:24 AM »
Ah, the joys of alcohol. 

MOD NOTE: Please ignore Mr%, and stay on topic ("Why Trump?") lest the thread be locked.

Cheers!  :)
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ender

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #421 on: August 27, 2016, 06:40:53 AM »
I agree with and understand what you are saying. I understand that people will vote for trump for these reasons. That does not sprinkle fairy dust on what he has said he will do (which is remarkably thin on details) and make it work, or make it work better than the status quo for that matter.

Has anyone actually tried the "trickle down" approach combined with making it harder to outsource everything? The problem with most of those approaches is that the trickling down is going to other countries. There are many, many people around the world who have considerably better lives as a result of trickle down economics. However, it's currently considerably easier for non-Americans to benefit.

Trump may be a lot of things but it's pretty clear he'd believes passionately in reducing the interdependence of the USA on the rest of the world. In fact, his entire platform is more or less based on this approach.

It's entirely reasonable to have the opinion this will positively affect industries devastated or eliminated by outsourcing.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #422 on: August 27, 2016, 06:59:03 AM »
It's entirely reasonable to have the opinion this will positively affect industries devastated or eliminated by outsourcing.
Except most of those industries aren't affected by outsourcing they are affected by automation.
The US makes more steel than it did in the 50s/60s but it does it with advanced plants run by fewer skilled operators rather than 1000s of minimum wage chargehands.  Same with containerization and longshoremen.

Most "German" and  "Japanese" cars on the road are made in the USA, But they are made on Toyota and Mercedes grade production lines in the south rather than the build quality that used to come out of Detroit.
Saying that he will bring manufacturing jobs home makes about as much sense as saying we will ban backhoes to restore the ditch digging industry. Forcing Apple to install automated German pick-and-place machines in a tax payer subsidized plant in Alabama to assemble iPhones isn't going to restore the working class

Ironically if he does get to tear up trade deals then these foreign car companies will be forced out. There will be no exports markets for Boeing or Intel if their customers aren't allowed to sell into a trade warring US. Hollywood is finished.


ender

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #423 on: August 27, 2016, 07:16:41 AM »
It's entirely reasonable to have the opinion this will positively affect industries devastated or eliminated by outsourcing.
Except most of those industries aren't affected by outsourcing they are affected by automation.
The US makes more steel than it did in the 50s/60s but it does it with advanced plants run by fewer skilled operators rather than 1000s of minimum wage chargehands.  Same with containerization and longshoremen.

Most "German" and  "Japanese" cars on the road are made in the USA, But they are made on Toyota and Mercedes grade production lines in the south rather than the build quality that used to come out of Detroit.
Saying that he will bring manufacturing jobs home makes about as much sense as saying we will ban backhoes to restore the ditch digging industry. Forcing Apple to install automated German pick-and-place machines in a tax payer subsidized plant in Alabama to assemble iPhones isn't going to restore the working class

Ironically if he does get to tear up trade deals then these foreign car companies will be forced out. There will be no exports markets for Boeing or Intel if their customers aren't allowed to sell into a trade warring US. Hollywood is finished.

Have you been to Walmart?

What percentage of the products you own personally had raw materials processed in the USA? Were the component parts fabricated in the USA? Was the final assembly done in the USA?

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #424 on: August 27, 2016, 07:30:30 AM »
Yes and I don't hear Trumps supporters calling for jobs stitching jeans in American sweatshops.
I grew up in a steel town and I don't remember my dad striking to support better wages for non-union women sweatshop workers.

Something could be done. Take the stimulus money paid to banks or the defense budget for the latest $Bn stealth fighter and use it to rebuild all the failing dams and bridges, build some railroads and new ports.  Of course that sounds like communism.


« Last Edit: August 27, 2016, 07:35:16 AM by nobodyspecial »

Jack

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #425 on: August 27, 2016, 07:58:15 AM »
MOD NOTE: Please ignore Mr%

To that end, I found this thread useful.

GuitarStv

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #426 on: August 27, 2016, 12:07:47 PM »
It's entirely reasonable to have the opinion this will positively affect industries devastated or eliminated by outsourcing.
Except most of those industries aren't affected by outsourcing they are affected by automation.
The US makes more steel than it did in the 50s/60s but it does it with advanced plants run by fewer skilled operators rather than 1000s of minimum wage chargehands.  Same with containerization and longshoremen.

Most "German" and  "Japanese" cars on the road are made in the USA, But they are made on Toyota and Mercedes grade production lines in the south rather than the build quality that used to come out of Detroit.
Saying that he will bring manufacturing jobs home makes about as much sense as saying we will ban backhoes to restore the ditch digging industry. Forcing Apple to install automated German pick-and-place machines in a tax payer subsidized plant in Alabama to assemble iPhones isn't going to restore the working class

Ironically if he does get to tear up trade deals then these foreign car companies will be forced out. There will be no exports markets for Boeing or Intel if their customers aren't allowed to sell into a trade warring US. Hollywood is finished.

Have you been to Walmart?

What percentage of the products you own personally had raw materials processed in the USA? Were the component parts fabricated in the USA? Was the final assembly done in the USA?

A huge percentage of the things we commonly buy for cheap have raw materials processing done overseas because of the lack of pollution regulations.  It's simply not possible to produce things as cheaply as many expect without destroying the environment.  Bringing these jobs to North America would raise the prices of goods, or would cause the pollution to happen here . . . Neither of which are very likely to be popular.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #427 on: August 28, 2016, 07:18:55 AM »

A huge percentage of the things we commonly buy for cheap have raw materials processing done overseas because of the lack of pollution regulations.  It's simply not possible to produce things as cheaply as many expect without destroying the environment.  Bringing these jobs to North America would raise the prices of goods, or would cause the pollution to happen here . . . Neither of which are very likely to be popular.

I think Trump would be ok with the pollution. His website lists the clean water rule and clean power regulations as job inhibiting & presented for repeal if he wins. The increased cost of goods, we'll have to see what happens if that surprise hits his supporters!

vitaminsea

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #428 on: August 29, 2016, 10:35:42 AM »
I don't have any problem telling people that I am voting for Trump.  I don't like many of the things that he says, but I think I am willing to give someone a chance at turning things around.  I really don't care about social issues, I care about financial issues.

I know that in the past decade our national debt has exploded to the point that we aren't going to be able to pay it back.  The past 10 years has put us into debt far beyond what we were in 2006.  Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little.   We are so far in hock that no one is even talking about deficit/debt reduction (including Trump).

Along comes a man who speaks his mind.  Now his mind is full of asshattery on many issues, but at least there is a sense of honesty about him, no matter the price.  Perhaps, if it is channeled correctly, we may be able to move forward with someone who is relatively honest.  Someone who already has power and money.  Perhaps we can't.   Perhaps we are witnessing the slow decline of America.

I know that the past is full of power broker politicians who enter government service to fatten their pockets, grow their personal power, and boldly lie to the American people about their agenda.   Perhaps I am nave and think that honesty and electing a businessman (albeit a mediocre one) will move us forward. We may be so focused on what we can get for ourselves as individuals that we care nothing about the country beyond what we can take from it.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #429 on: August 29, 2016, 10:47:33 AM »
I don't have any problem telling people that I am voting for Trump.  I don't like many of the things that he says, but I think I am willing to give someone a chance at turning things around.  I really don't care about social issues, I care about financial issues.

I know that in the past decade our national debt has exploded to the point that we aren't going to be able to pay it back.  The past 10 years has put us into debt far beyond what we were in 2006.  Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little.   We are so far in hock that no one is even talking about deficit/debt reduction (including Trump).

Along comes a man who speaks his mind.  Now his mind is full of asshattery on many issues, but at least there is a sense of honesty about him, no matter the price.  Perhaps, if it is channeled correctly, we may be able to move forward with someone who is relatively honest.  Someone who already has power and money.  Perhaps we can't.   Perhaps we are witnessing the slow decline of America.

I know that the past is full of power broker politicians who enter government service to fatten their pockets, grow their personal power, and boldly lie to the American people about their agenda.   Perhaps I am nave and think that honesty and electing a businessman (albeit a mediocre one) will move us forward. We may be so focused on what we can get for ourselves as individuals that we care nothing about the country beyond what we can take from it.

I find this very interesting in how people perceive Trump. Some people perceive him as a straight shooter who says what he thinks and in honest. Others see the same speeches and record and find him to be a total bullshitter who has no adherence to facts and will say whatever he needs to at the moment (what Ayn Rand would call the expediency of the moment). I think this is a fundamental divide on him. I find it interesting that the perceptions can be so radically different.

dividendman

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #430 on: August 29, 2016, 11:11:46 AM »
Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little. 

Why is it that people often blame the administration for spending? It's never the administration that determines the spending, it is always the congress. If you have a gripe about the spending, look to the congress.

Note that out of the last 20 years, Republicans have controlled the House of Representatives for 16 years (this is where all spending and taxing bills must originate - and thus the biggest factor in spending) and Democrats for 4 years. Out of the last 20 years, Republicans have controlled the Senate for 10 years, and Democrats for 10 years.

Federal debt as a percentage of the GDP has doubled in the last 20 years.

So, if you think spending is going crazy, look to the congress and change it.

vitaminsea

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #431 on: August 29, 2016, 11:58:51 AM »
I don't have any problem telling people that I am voting for Trump.  I don't like many of the things that he says, but I think I am willing to give someone a chance at turning things around.  I really don't care about social issues, I care about financial issues.

I know that in the past decade our national debt has exploded to the point that we aren't going to be able to pay it back.  The past 10 years has put us into debt far beyond what we were in 2006.  Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little.   We are so far in hock that no one is even talking about deficit/debt reduction (including Trump).

Along comes a man who speaks his mind.  Now his mind is full of asshattery on many issues, but at least there is a sense of honesty about him, no matter the price.  Perhaps, if it is channeled correctly, we may be able to move forward with someone who is relatively honest.  Someone who already has power and money.  Perhaps we can't.   Perhaps we are witnessing the slow decline of America.

I know that the past is full of power broker politicians who enter government service to fatten their pockets, grow their personal power, and boldly lie to the American people about their agenda.   Perhaps I am nave and think that honesty and electing a businessman (albeit a mediocre one) will move us forward. We may be so focused on what we can get for ourselves as individuals that we care nothing about the country beyond what we can take from it.

I find this very interesting in how people perceive Trump. Some people perceive him as a straight shooter who says what he thinks and in honest. Others see the same speeches and record and find him to be a total bullshitter who has no adherence to facts and will say whatever he needs to at the moment (what Ayn Rand would call the expediency of the moment). I think this is a fundamental divide on him. I find it interesting that the perceptions can be so radically different.

He appears to be honest when it hurts him, so maybe that is something. Honestly, my bar it set pretty low for a politician.

vitaminsea

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #432 on: August 29, 2016, 12:02:59 PM »
Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little. 

Why is it that people often blame the administration for spending? It's never the administration that determines the spending, it is always the congress. If you have a gripe about the spending, look to the congress.

Note that out of the last 20 years, Republicans have controlled the House of Representatives for 16 years (this is where all spending and taxing bills must originate - and thus the biggest factor in spending) and Democrats for 4 years. Out of the last 20 years, Republicans have controlled the Senate for 10 years, and Democrats for 10 years.

Federal debt as a percentage of the GDP has doubled in the last 20 years.

So, if you think spending is going crazy, look to the congress and change it.

Ah, but I wasn't asked about my voting preferences for Congress. I could spend a substantial amount of time on those critters as well.

The current administration is also responsible for the condition of this country. As is the previous administration, and the one before that.

Trying to dichotomize the whole mess into a Republican = bad, Democrat = good is not going to get us anywhere.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #433 on: August 29, 2016, 12:27:26 PM »
Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little. 

Why is it that people often blame the administration for spending? It's never the administration that determines the spending, it is always the congress. If you have a gripe about the spending, look to the congress.

Note that out of the last 20 years, Republicans have controlled the House of Representatives for 16 years (this is where all spending and taxing bills must originate - and thus the biggest factor in spending) and Democrats for 4 years. Out of the last 20 years, Republicans have controlled the Senate for 10 years, and Democrats for 10 years.

Federal debt as a percentage of the GDP has doubled in the last 20 years.

So, if you think spending is going crazy, look to the congress and change it.

Ah, but I wasn't asked about my voting preferences for Congress. I could spend a substantial amount of time on those critters as well.

The current administration is also responsible for the condition of this country. As is the previous administration, and the one before that.

Trying to dichotomize the whole mess into a Republican = bad, Democrat = good is not going to get us anywhere.

I'm just pointing out that you said "the current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little". The administration is required to spend what congress deems fit.

I also disagree that "the current administration is responsible for the condition of the country". How is that the case exactly? The only thing a President can do to really mess up the country is a military action (and even that the President shouldn't be allowed to do but the congress basically abdicated that power).

The President can't really screw up the country domestically. It's the congress and the states that screw things up - that's where the power is.

And even when the congress and the states do things, it's usually not the current congress that has to deal with the consequences since things take a while to materialize.

So, I think a more accurate statement would be "it's the last few Congresses and State governments that are responsible for the current condition of the country." But, sadly, this statement doesn't let us blame people we can vote out at the present time so it's not very satisfying.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #434 on: August 29, 2016, 12:55:56 PM »
I don't have any problem telling people that I am voting for Trump.  I don't like many of the things that he says, but I think I am willing to give someone a chance at turning things around.  I really don't care about social issues, I care about financial issues.

I know that in the past decade our national debt has exploded to the point that we aren't going to be able to pay it back.  The past 10 years has put us into debt far beyond what we were in 2006.  Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little.   We are so far in hock that no one is even talking about deficit/debt reduction (including Trump).

Along comes a man who speaks his mind.  Now his mind is full of asshattery on many issues, but at least there is a sense of honesty about him, no matter the price.  Perhaps, if it is channeled correctly, we may be able to move forward with someone who is relatively honest.  Someone who already has power and money.  Perhaps we can't.   Perhaps we are witnessing the slow decline of America.

I know that the past is full of power broker politicians who enter government service to fatten their pockets, grow their personal power, and boldly lie to the American people about their agenda.   Perhaps I am nave and think that honesty and electing a businessman (albeit a mediocre one) will move us forward. We may be so focused on what we can get for ourselves as individuals that we care nothing about the country beyond what we can take from it.

I find this very interesting in how people perceive Trump. Some people perceive him as a straight shooter who says what he thinks and in honest. Others see the same speeches and record and find him to be a total bullshitter who has no adherence to facts and will say whatever he needs to at the moment (what Ayn Rand would call the expediency of the moment). I think this is a fundamental divide on him. I find it interesting that the perceptions can be so radically different.

He appears to be honest when it hurts him, so maybe that is something. Honestly, my bar it set pretty low for a politician.
I fall in the latter camp, in part fueled by his ability to contradict himself within single sentences, willful disregard for the record of what he has said/done, and long history of bullshitting. What he has succeeded in creating is a political brand, which is not based on actual substance or detail. In other words, his appeal is entirely emotionally-based as near as I can tell, and is supported by the majority of the pro-Trump language above.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #435 on: August 29, 2016, 12:56:20 PM »
Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little. 

Why is it that people often blame the administration for spending? It's never the administration that determines the spending, it is always the congress. If you have a gripe about the spending, look to the congress.

Note that out of the last 20 years, Republicans have controlled the House of Representatives for 16 years (this is where all spending and taxing bills must originate - and thus the biggest factor in spending) and Democrats for 4 years. Out of the last 20 years, Republicans have controlled the Senate for 10 years, and Democrats for 10 years.

Federal debt as a percentage of the GDP has doubled in the last 20 years.

So, if you think spending is going crazy, look to the congress and change it.

Congress gets a lot of say and on paper can certainly refuse spending, but as a practical matter, the president exerts considerable influence on the budget through veto power. 

It's also a little disingenuous to imply that republicans (who spend like drunken sailors), being in control of the house as opposed to democrats (who spend in ways that would horrify drunken sailors) has resulted in more spending.  Republicans have been horrible in Congress and at least on matters of levels of overall spending, as truly awful as they have been, they have been slightly less awful than democrats at least claim they want to be. 

In fairness to both parties, they are just voting for a lot of spending because a majority of the voting public likes more spending that "other people" pay for, and in fairness to drunken sailors, it's probably somewhat slanderous to imply that them spending their own money is in any way comparable to republicans and democrats spending other people's money. 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #436 on: August 29, 2016, 01:07:07 PM »
All kidding aside, I completely understand the anger than many Trump voters feel about the economy. Globalization has not been beneficial to many blue-collar workers. Unfortunately, globalization was inevitable because of what other countries were doing. Mexico, for example, has been impoverished for a very long time, so they had nothing to lose by signing forty free trade agreements with other countries. But their free trade agreements impacted the United States, because now we had companies like GM, etc. building factories in Mexico because the labor was cheap and they didn't pay tariffs to ship their products overseas. They were willing to overlook the uneducated workforce and greater government corruption/thievery because it made financial sense for them.

The only way the US could respond was by forming their own free trade agreements to try to recapture some of that lost trade. And, naturally, that led to wage competition between the US and cheaper countries which depressed blue-collar workers' earnings. There is simply no way around the problem.

At the same time, technology has ended huge sectors of employment. Most low-wage work is now accomplished more efficiently by computers or robots. Digital media and the cloud have erased many other jobs. Green energy is making coal production unprofitable, so places like Kentucky and West Virginia are SOL. There's really no way around this problem either.

Trump appeals to these desperate people by making grandiose promises of bringing back the "good old days", when he's really just lying to them to get their votes. Hillary Clinton has been much more honest about this stuff -- although she's promised to do what she can to bring "new economy" jobs to economically depressed areas -- and she's being pilloried for it.

My heart really does go out to the workers who are suffering under the 21st century economy. It must be really hard for them to see any hope for the future.

vitaminsea

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #437 on: August 29, 2016, 01:12:36 PM »
I don't have any problem telling people that I am voting for Trump.  I don't like many of the things that he says, but I think I am willing to give someone a chance at turning things around.  I really don't care about social issues, I care about financial issues.

I know that in the past decade our national debt has exploded to the point that we aren't going to be able to pay it back.  The past 10 years has put us into debt far beyond what we were in 2006.  Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little.   We are so far in hock that no one is even talking about deficit/debt reduction (including Trump).

Along comes a man who speaks his mind.  Now his mind is full of asshattery on many issues, but at least there is a sense of honesty about him, no matter the price.  Perhaps, if it is channeled correctly, we may be able to move forward with someone who is relatively honest.  Someone who already has power and money.  Perhaps we can't.   Perhaps we are witnessing the slow decline of America.

I know that the past is full of power broker politicians who enter government service to fatten their pockets, grow their personal power, and boldly lie to the American people about their agenda.   Perhaps I am nave and think that honesty and electing a businessman (albeit a mediocre one) will move us forward. We may be so focused on what we can get for ourselves as individuals that we care nothing about the country beyond what we can take from it.

I find this very interesting in how people perceive Trump. Some people perceive him as a straight shooter who says what he thinks and in honest. Others see the same speeches and record and find him to be a total bullshitter who has no adherence to facts and will say whatever he needs to at the moment (what Ayn Rand would call the expediency of the moment). I think this is a fundamental divide on him. I find it interesting that the perceptions can be so radically different.

He appears to be honest when it hurts him, so maybe that is something. Honestly, my bar it set pretty low for a politician.
I fall in the latter camp, in part fueled by his ability to contradict himself within single sentences, willful disregard for the record of what he has said/done, and long history of bullshitting. What he has succeeded in creating is a political brand, which is not based on actual substance or detail. In other words, his appeal is entirely emotionally-based as near as I can tell, and is supported by the majority of the pro-Trump language above.

Oh yes, that old chestnut.  Anything I do not agree with can be refuted by saying that it must be based in emotion.  As though emotion is not a primary component of decision making.

Me = pro - Trump?  Hardly.  I think he is a fool for most of what he says (as stated previously).  However, I am even less of a fan of my other choices.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #438 on: August 29, 2016, 01:14:28 PM »
I find this very interesting in how people perceive Trump. Some people perceive him as a straight shooter who says what he thinks and in honest. Others see the same speeches and record and find him to be a total bullshitter who has no adherence to facts and will say whatever he needs to at the moment (what Ayn Rand would call the expediency of the moment). I think this is a fundamental divide on him. I find it interesting that the perceptions can be so radically different.

He appears to be honest when it hurts him, so maybe that is something. Honestly, my bar it set pretty low for a politician.

I fall in the latter camp, in part fueled by his ability to contradict himself within single sentences, willful disregard for the record of what he has said/done, and long history of bullshitting. What he has succeeded in creating is a political brand, which is not based on actual substance or detail. In other words, his appeal is entirely emotionally-based as near as I can tell, and is supported by the majority of the pro-Trump language above.

Indeed. To continue the analogy, Trump is less of a "straight shooter" and more of a "manaic firing wildly in every direction, including at his own foot."

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #439 on: August 29, 2016, 02:01:02 PM »

Oh yes, that old chestnut.  Anything I do not agree with can be refuted by saying that it must be based in emotion.  As though emotion is not a primary component of decision making.

Me = pro - Trump?  Hardly.  I think he is a fool for most of what he says (as stated previously).  However, I am even less of a fan of my other choices.

I was commenting on how he has structured his appeal.  Refuting is positions (take your pick) is a different issue. The point is that his brand and structure of his campaign isn't actually about building a rigorous policy platform. This should actually make the debates pretty interesting when the candidates are effectively speaking different languages.

Jrr85

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #440 on: August 29, 2016, 02:04:38 PM »
I don't have any problem telling people that I am voting for Trump.  I don't like many of the things that he says, but I think I am willing to give someone a chance at turning things around.  I really don't care about social issues, I care about financial issues.

I know that in the past decade our national debt has exploded to the point that we aren't going to be able to pay it back.  The past 10 years has put us into debt far beyond what we were in 2006.  Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little.   We are so far in hock that no one is even talking about deficit/debt reduction (including Trump).

Along comes a man who speaks his mind.  Now his mind is full of asshattery on many issues, but at least there is a sense of honesty about him, no matter the price.  Perhaps, if it is channeled correctly, we may be able to move forward with someone who is relatively honest.  Someone who already has power and money.  Perhaps we can't.   Perhaps we are witnessing the slow decline of America.

I know that the past is full of power broker politicians who enter government service to fatten their pockets, grow their personal power, and boldly lie to the American people about their agenda.   Perhaps I am nave and think that honesty and electing a businessman (albeit a mediocre one) will move us forward. We may be so focused on what we can get for ourselves as individuals that we care nothing about the country beyond what we can take from it.

I find this very interesting in how people perceive Trump. Some people perceive him as a straight shooter who says what he thinks and in honest. Others see the same speeches and record and find him to be a total bullshitter who has no adherence to facts and will say whatever he needs to at the moment (what Ayn Rand would call the expediency of the moment). I think this is a fundamental divide on him. I find it interesting that the perceptions can be so radically different.

He appears to be honest when it hurts him, so maybe that is something. Honestly, my bar it set pretty low for a politician.
I fall in the latter camp, in part fueled by his ability to contradict himself within single sentences, willful disregard for the record of what he has said/done, and long history of bullshitting. What he has succeeded in creating is a political brand, which is not based on actual substance or detail. In other words, his appeal is entirely emotionally-based as near as I can tell, and is supported by the majority of the pro-Trump language above.

Oh yes, that old chestnut.  Anything I do not agree with can be refuted by saying that it must be based in emotion.  As though emotion is not a primary component of decision making.

Me = pro - Trump?  Hardly.  I think he is a fool for most of what he says (as stated previously).  However, I am even less of a fan of my other choices.

It's also worth pointing out that Trump is basically the mirror image of 2008 Obama.  Emotional appeal, both charismatic but with no record to suggest they would be qualified to be president (although at least Trump has a record in business, for good or ill), people can basically project what they want onto him (2008 Obama because he spoke in vague platitudes, Trump because he has taken pretty much every position on every meaningful issue). 

"Eek, people are voting for Trump based on raw emotion; why can't they vote for the candidate that is going to lower sea levels like I did!"

vitaminsea

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #441 on: August 29, 2016, 03:12:46 PM »

Oh yes, that old chestnut.  Anything I do not agree with can be refuted by saying that it must be based in emotion.  As though emotion is not a primary component of decision making.

Me = pro - Trump?  Hardly.  I think he is a fool for most of what he says (as stated previously).  However, I am even less of a fan of my other choices.

I was commenting on how he has structured his appeal.  Refuting is positions (take your pick) is a different issue. The point is that his brand and structure of his campaign isn't actually about building a rigorous policy platform. This should actually make the debates pretty interesting when the candidates are effectively speaking different languages.

Oh, my apologies. I misunderstood you.  I thought you were referencing my statements rather than Trump's approach. 

nobodyspecial

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #442 on: August 29, 2016, 08:25:10 PM »
The President can't really screw up the country domestically. It's the congress and the states that screw things up - that's where the power is.
I think it's fairer to say that the president can't solve anything domestically, that's upto congress and the states

He (she) can certainly screw things up without congressional approval.
All it takes is saying "we can renegotiate our debt"  and wonder why the bond market crashed
He can hold a press conference and say "it's time for loyal Americans to do something about muslims" and start a pogrom.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 09:51:05 PM by nobodyspecial »

cliffhanger

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #443 on: August 30, 2016, 07:54:43 AM »
The President can't really screw up the country domestically. It's the congress and the states that screw things up - that's where the power is.
I think it's fairer to say that the president can solve anything domestically, that's upto congress and the states

He (she) can certainly screw things up without congressional approval.
All it takes is saying "we can renegotiate our debt"  and wonder why the bond market crashed
He can hold a press conference and say "it's time for loyal Americans to do something about muslims" and start a pogrom.


I personally believe Trump would be the only President in recent history to be held accountable for overreach of power. President Bush pushed the limits on Executive power, but he had the support of the Republicans. Likewise, President Obama has pushed the limits on Executive power, but he has the support of the Democrats. Many politicians and people don't like Trump, so all of his actions will be scrutinized.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #444 on: August 30, 2016, 08:18:39 AM »
I don't have any problem telling people that I am voting for Trump.  I don't like many of the things that he says, but I think I am willing to give someone a chance at turning things around.  I really don't care about social issues, I care about financial issues.

I know that in the past decade our national debt has exploded to the point that we aren't going to be able to pay it back.  The past 10 years has put us into debt far beyond what we were in 2006.  Our current administration has spent trillions of dollars on very little.   We are so far in hock that no one is even talking about deficit/debt reduction (including Trump).

Along comes a man who speaks his mind.  Now his mind is full of asshattery on many issues, but at least there is a sense of honesty about him, no matter the price.  Perhaps, if it is channeled correctly, we may be able to move forward with someone who is relatively honest.  Someone who already has power and money.  Perhaps we can't.   Perhaps we are witnessing the slow decline of America.

I know that the past is full of power broker politicians who enter government service to fatten their pockets, grow their personal power, and boldly lie to the American people about their agenda.   Perhaps I am nave and think that honesty and electing a businessman (albeit a mediocre one) will move us forward. We may be so focused on what we can get for ourselves as individuals that we care nothing about the country beyond what we can take from it.

I find this very interesting in how people perceive Trump. Some people perceive him as a straight shooter who says what he thinks and in honest. Others see the same speeches and record and find him to be a total bullshitter who has no adherence to facts and will say whatever he needs to at the moment (what Ayn Rand would call the expediency of the moment). I think this is a fundamental divide on him. I find it interesting that the perceptions can be so radically different.

He appears to be honest when it hurts him, so maybe that is something. Honestly, my bar it set pretty low for a politician.
I fall in the latter camp, in part fueled by his ability to contradict himself within single sentences, willful disregard for the record of what he has said/done, and long history of bullshitting. What he has succeeded in creating is a political brand, which is not based on actual substance or detail. In other words, his appeal is entirely emotionally-based as near as I can tell, and is supported by the majority of the pro-Trump language above.

Oh yes, that old chestnut.  Anything I do not agree with can be refuted by saying that it must be based in emotion.  As though emotion is not a primary component of decision making.

Me = pro - Trump?  Hardly.  I think he is a fool for most of what he says (as stated previously).  However, I am even less of a fan of my other choices.

It's also worth pointing out that Trump is basically the mirror image of 2008 Obama.  Emotional appeal, both charismatic but with no record to suggest they would be qualified to be president (although at least Trump has a record in business, for good or ill), people can basically project what they want onto him (2008 Obama because he spoke in vague platitudes, Trump because he has taken pretty much every position on every meaningful issue). 

"Eek, people are voting for Trump based on raw emotion; why can't they vote for the candidate that is going to lower sea levels like I did!"
Except he is hiding his tax returns which would give a lot of information about those businesses.  Obama at least had some governmental experience.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #445 on: August 30, 2016, 01:51:39 PM »
The President can't really screw up the country domestically. It's the congress and the states that screw things up - that's where the power is.
I think it's fairer to say that the president can solve anything domestically, that's upto congress and the states

He (she) can certainly screw things up without congressional approval.
All it takes is saying "we can renegotiate our debt"  and wonder why the bond market crashed
He can hold a press conference and say "it's time for loyal Americans to do something about muslims" and start a pogrom.


I personally believe Trump would be the only President in recent history to be held accountable for overreach of power. President Bush pushed the limits on Executive power, but he had the support of the Republicans. Likewise, President Obama has pushed the limits on Executive power, but he has the support of the Democrats. Many politicians and people don't like Trump, so all of his actions will be scrutinized.

This is actually the only reason why I'd consider voting for Trump. A vote for him may be a vote for the most powerful gridlock we've had in a while.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #446 on: September 02, 2016, 03:04:01 PM »
Let's face it: America is screwed. Both Trump and Clinton are bad.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #447 on: September 02, 2016, 05:00:52 PM »
Taco truck on every corner? Sounds like heaven to me.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #448 on: September 05, 2016, 07:47:42 PM »
The President can't really screw up the country domestically. It's the congress and the states that screw things up - that's where the power is.
I think it's fairer to say that the president can solve anything domestically, that's upto congress and the states

He (she) can certainly screw things up without congressional approval.
All it takes is saying "we can renegotiate our debt"  and wonder why the bond market crashed
He can hold a press conference and say "it's time for loyal Americans to do something about muslims" and start a pogrom.


I personally believe Trump would be the only President in recent history to be held accountable for overreach of power. President Bush pushed the limits on Executive power, but he had the support of the Republicans. Likewise, President Obama has pushed the limits on Executive power, but he has the support of the Democrats. Many politicians and people don't like Trump, so all of his actions will be scrutinized.

This is actually the only reason why I'd consider voting for Trump. A vote for him may be a vote for the most powerful gridlock we've had in a while.
That was a big reason I was all in for bernie. Oh well, hopefully trump will be good enough.

yuka

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #449 on: September 06, 2016, 10:30:35 AM »
The President can't really screw up the country domestically. It's the congress and the states that screw things up - that's where the power is.
I think it's fairer to say that the president can solve anything domestically, that's upto congress and the states

He (she) can certainly screw things up without congressional approval.
All it takes is saying "we can renegotiate our debt"  and wonder why the bond market crashed
He can hold a press conference and say "it's time for loyal Americans to do something about muslims" and start a pogrom.


I personally believe Trump would be the only President in recent history to be held accountable for overreach of power. President Bush pushed the limits on Executive power, but he had the support of the Republicans. Likewise, President Obama has pushed the limits on Executive power, but he has the support of the Democrats. Many politicians and people don't like Trump, so all of his actions will be scrutinized.

This is actually the only reason why I'd consider voting for Trump. A vote for him may be a vote for the most powerful gridlock we've had in a while.
That was a big reason I was all in for bernie. Oh well, hopefully trump will be good enough.

Yep, I felt the same way, although also felt (and still feel) that the Democrats couldn't win with Clinton.

Sanders was probably my second favorite candidate politically as well (not just playing political game theory). Rand Paul was good, minus his loyalty to his home state. Bringing home pork may be the primary job of congressmen, but that doesn't make coal subsidies sit any better with me.