Author Topic: Trump Voters.... why?  (Read 209593 times)

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1350 on: October 30, 2016, 06:43:33 PM »
Well I think Podesta's emails that have been released over the last several weeks provide a lot clearer picture than anyone has ever had which is why I keep asking if anyone responding to me has actually read any of them.  I'm not sure if the authorities can actually use any of the information but if so it certainly won't help the Clinton's.  Also if the emails the FBI is now reviewing are part of what she claimed were her personal emails that were deleted and they contain classified material she will be toast especially if the FBI gets Huma and Weiner to roll over on her.  As you may have noticed I currently reside in Arkansas and I don't ever hear anything good about these people.  Maybe that explains in part why I have the opinion I have.  But the Podesta emails do confirm quite a few things and there are more coming.

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1351 on: October 30, 2016, 06:52:27 PM »
Here's another one on her campaign manager Podesta that just dropped in the last day or so.  With all this talk about Trump and all his supposed Russia ties it turns out Hillary's campaign manager Podesta has ties to a Russian energy company that he tried to hide by moving his 75000 shares to a holding company that he put his daughter in law in charge of.  Nothing here, move on sheeple.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/WikiLeaks-podesta-russian-firm/2016/10/30/id/756044/

nereo

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1352 on: October 30, 2016, 07:07:03 PM »
nereo let me challenge your theory a bit.  The IRS can initiate an audit of anyone for any reason.  But yes they can also convict as you mention if they find criminal tax violations.   I also doubt their audits are anything more than routine given Trump was awarded the GSA contract tied to the old post office hotel that just opened.  That being said, from the FBI website, they only appear to investigate when there is a possible violation of federal criminal law (see below as related to our topic).  And it is my understanding from what I have read that for an investigation to start there has to be some reasonable expectation that a crime has even been committed which is why it is such a big deal when they open an investigation to begin with.  They are supposed to turn over their investigation to the DOJ who is then supposed to pursue an indictment if they believe they have enough to convict.  So yes there is no automatic conviction but when the FBI initiates an investigation they are making a statement that there is enough to at least question whether a law has been broken. 

Sure.  The IRS can initiate an audit for anyone for any reason. But as has been commented on numerous times, it's curious that an audit would ahve gone on for this long, and there's there's no indication about whether this audit is routine or investigating criminal behavior (lying on your taxes is considered perjury and is a federal crime).  Its complicated in that per IRS policy they don't make public their reasons for auditing or even if an audit is being conducted.  Is this 18+ audit just another run-of-the-mill audit?  It seems less and less likely. It's entirely possible there is no audit.  So it's a giant black box.

As for the FBI - yes the FBI investigates and has jurisdiction over the State department.  We already know about the second email server.  Now the FBI is investigating where those emails went, and now has a warrant for communications to/from Weiner as part of that. Will it amount to a hill of beans?  maybe, maybe no. If you are a glass-half-full type than the FBI is investigating to make sure there was no malicious intent behind the use of a private server and the handling of classified information- so far none has been found that I'm aware of. If you're a 'world-is-a-dark-place' kinda guy, then this is the FBI stooping to political pressure to continue an investigation.

To push back, there were 10 (ten!) congressional committes on Benghazi and 33 hearings which resulted in exactly zero administrative wrong-doing. Likewise, we've already had one FBI investigation into the email servers and classified information.  Will this new set of emails show anything new? perhaps.  or perhaps it's exactly what we thought after the last investigation involving 147 agents... stupid, callous but not malicious.

Quote
You still haven't answered any of my questions.  Do you plan to?
Plan to.... read the wikileaks?  I've read some of them.  Most seem to show that HRC is (gasp) a politician, who isn't above trying to find ways of making her opponents look bad.  Others show that they gave speeches and catered to their audiences.  I've yet to see any 'smoking gun' or even anything all that surprising.  The uranium story seems like a dud (there appears to have been no reason why we weren't obligated to approve Canada's sale of uranium to Russia.)  Is here something specific you are referring to?

One last point.  Name calling (e.g. "sheeple") doesn't exactly foster positive discussion.

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1353 on: October 30, 2016, 07:21:25 PM »
Well I guess we will know sooner or later.  The sheeple reference is my interpretation of what we are being told when this stuff comes up.  Which is one of the reasons I have problems with it.  There is never a straight answer and maybe that is why there are so many investigations.  Even the Podesta emails show some of her internal campaign people asking why the email issue wasn't resolved way earlier and saying it is because they were trying to get away with it..  Their mo seems to always be to deflect, deny, and delay.  And basically say to the public "nothing to see here, move on sheeple"...

nereo

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1354 on: October 30, 2016, 07:30:56 PM »
Well I guess we will know sooner or later.  The sheeple reference is my interpretation of what we are being told when this stuff comes up.  Which is one of the reasons I have problems with it.  There is never a straight answer and maybe that is why there are so many investigations.  Even the Podesta emails show some of her internal campaign people asking why the email issue wasn't resolved way earlier and saying it is because they were trying to get away with it..  Their mo seems to always be to deflect, deny, and delay.  And basically say to the public "nothing to see here, move on sheeple"...

Fair enough. I was reading that as you calling other posters here "sheeple". 

Yes, Clinton's responses to the email invetigations have not made me very fond of her.  A combination of arrogance and hoping it might either blow over or not be fully investigated.  In short - a politicians response.

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1355 on: October 30, 2016, 07:40:39 PM »
Just to clarify my sheeple comment some more.  Here is my last Wikileaks email for the day.  It is an email from a Clinton crony Bill to Podesta.  In it he says they conspire to keep us little people unaware and compliant (sheeple)!  I for one refuse to accept this.  But I do agree with some of his comments on Trump for what it is worth.

From:bi@globalculturalstrategies.com
To: john.podesta@gmail.com
Date: 2016-03-13 17:06
Subject: From Bill Ivey

Dear John:

Well, we all thought the big problem for our US democracy was Citizens
United/Koch Brothers big money in politics. Silly us; turns out that money
isn't all that important if you can conflate entertainment with the
electoral process. Trump masters TV, TV so-called news picks up and repeats
and repeats to death this opinionated blowhard and his hairbrained ideas,
free-floating discontent attaches to a seeming strongman and we're off and
running. JFK, Jr would be delighted by all this as his "George" magazine saw
celebrity politics coming. The magazine struggled as it was ahead of its
time but now looks prescient. George, of course, played the development
pretty lightly, basically for charm and gossip, like People, but what we are
dealing with now is dead serious. How does this get handled in the general?
Secretary Clinton is not an entertainer, and not a celebrity in the Trump,
Kardashian mold; what can she do to offset this? I'm certain the
poll-directed insiders are sure things will default to policy as soon as the
conventions are over, but I think not. And as I've mentioned, we've all
been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire
to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry. The unawareness remains
strong but compliance is obviously fading rapidly.
This problem demands
some serious, serious thinking - and not just poll driven,
demographically-inspired messaging.


waltworks

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1356 on: October 30, 2016, 07:45:14 PM »
That makes Clinton look *good*, though. What do you find objectionable about it?

-W

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1357 on: October 30, 2016, 08:01:31 PM »
Umm the Clinton guy is saying they conspire to keep us unaware and compliant...  I don't know about you but I don't need any political party (that has conspired with the mainstream media as proven by the Wikileaks emails) to conspire to keep me unaware and compliant.  And I don't think it says anything about Clinton herself other than maybe she lacks a personality???

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1358 on: October 30, 2016, 08:35:46 PM »
Umm the Clinton guy is saying they conspire to keep us unaware and compliant...  I don't know about you but I don't need any political party (that has conspired with the mainstream media as proven by the Wikileaks emails) to conspire to keep me unaware and compliant.  And I don't think it says anything about Clinton herself other than maybe she lacks a personality???
But what I read that email as saying is that there has been a general tendency (eg among politicians and commentators and the media) to talk down government (the "everything in Washington is tainted" line, basically), that this discontent has led to room for someone from the entertainment industry to latch on to that general discontent with a few hairbrained/strongman ideas that the newsmedia are happy to give time to, and that this pushes serious politics and serious politicians out of the national conversation.  It says this needs a serious answer rather than just immediate poll-driven answers.

That seems like a fairly serious analysis to me.  I'm not seeing a conspiracy.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1359 on: October 30, 2016, 08:43:23 PM »
Umm the Clinton guy is saying they conspire to keep us unaware and compliant...  I don't know about you but I don't need any political party (that has conspired with the mainstream media as proven by the Wikileaks emails) to conspire to keep me unaware and compliant.  And I don't think it says anything about Clinton herself other than maybe she lacks a personality???
But what I read that email as saying is that there has been a general tendency (eg among politicians and commentators and the media) to talk down government (the "everything in Washington is tainted" line, basically), that this discontent has led to room for someone from the entertainment industry to latch on to that general discontent with a few hairbrained/strongman ideas that the newsmedia are happy to give time to, and that this pushes serious politics and serious politicians out of the national conversation.  It says this needs a serious answer rather than just immediate poll-driven answers.

That seems like a fairly serious analysis to me.  I'm not seeing a conspiracy.

Basically my thoughts as well.  Here a frank analysis that their public statements and partisan politics had set the table for a reality tv to run away with the theme.  Oh the irony.

jrhampt

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1360 on: October 30, 2016, 08:44:54 PM »
Umm the Clinton guy is saying they conspire to keep us unaware and compliant...  I don't know about you but I don't need any political party (that has conspired with the mainstream media as proven by the Wikileaks emails) to conspire to keep me unaware and compliant.  And I don't think it says anything about Clinton herself other than maybe she lacks a personality???
But what I read that email as saying is that there has been a general tendency (eg among politicians and commentators and the media) to talk down government (the "everything in Washington is tainted" line, basically), that this discontent has led to room for someone from the entertainment industry to latch on to that general discontent with a few hairbrained/strongman ideas that the newsmedia are happy to give time to, and that this pushes serious politics and serious politicians out of the national conversation.  It says this needs a serious answer rather than just immediate poll-driven answers.

That seems like a fairly serious analysis to me.  I'm not seeing a conspiracy.

Yes, I agree with this interpretation.  It's favorable to Clinton because she's a serious candidate rather than a celebrity/entertainer. 

waltworks

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1361 on: October 30, 2016, 08:45:22 PM »
Umm the Clinton guy is saying they conspire to keep us unaware and compliant...  I don't know about you but I don't need any political party (that has conspired with the mainstream media as proven by the Wikileaks emails) to conspire to keep me unaware and compliant.  And I don't think it says anything about Clinton herself other than maybe she lacks a personality???

Well, there's not much context, but the general gist is that *Clinton would prefer to debate policy* but the electorate is not informed enough to do that. The "we" here is IMO referring to the political establishment at large - given that the email is clearly lamenting the "uninformed and compliant" state of affairs.

It's as if you've latched onto certain words and ignored the rest of the message completely. This is an email about a politician with (I think we can all agree) not a lot of personal charisma trying to figure out how to leverage her strengths (policy minutia) when the electorate isn't looking for that. I guess at worst you could say it's a cynical take on the American electorate, but I'd guess it's one that a lot of folks who care about policy share.

-W

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1362 on: October 30, 2016, 09:01:13 PM »
Well I take the first part as the guy saying that they can't assume that this election will fit any previous mold in the general election because Trump is using his celebrity to attract voters and not necessarily focusing on policy which their polster's would assume gives Hillary an advantage.  Regardless of his intent on how to beat Trump the guy specifically says they "conspire to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry".  I interpret that citizenry as us.  I just picked this email out as it reflected why I used the term sheeple because to me it shows what type of voters they hope they are dealing with.

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1363 on: October 30, 2016, 09:04:47 PM »
It is an email from a Clinton crony Bill to Podesta.

"Well, we all thought the big problem...was Citizens United/Koch Brothers....

And as I've mentioned, we've all been quite content to demean government, drop civics and in general conspire
to produce an unaware and compliant citizenry."

Certainly room to speculate, but typically most Republicans don't think the Koch brothers are a problem so it's reasonable to conclude the first "we all" refers to "we Democrats".  Then, given no other antecedent on which to hang the other "we've all", it's reasonable to assume he continues to refer to "we Democrats".

waltworks

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1364 on: October 30, 2016, 09:09:27 PM »
Certainly room to speculate, but typically most Republicans don't think the Koch brothers are a problem so it's reasonable to conclude the first "we all" refers to "we Democrats".  Then, given no other antecedent on which to hang the other "we've all", it's reasonable to assume he continues to refer to "we Democrats".

Ok, sure. Let's roll with that. The email is obviously lamenting that "conspiracy" and the end result, regardless of who "we all" refers to.

-W

MDM

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1365 on: October 30, 2016, 09:40:54 PM »
Certainly room to speculate, but typically most Republicans don't think the Koch brothers are a problem so it's reasonable to conclude the first "we all" refers to "we Democrats".  Then, given no other antecedent on which to hang the other "we've all", it's reasonable to assume he continues to refer to "we Democrats".
Ok, sure. Let's roll with that. The email is obviously lamenting that "conspiracy" and the end result, regardless of who "we all" refers to.
-W
In which case, especially if they assign blame to Democrats but even if they also blame Republican leadership, we have a reasonable answer for the thread question.

arebelspy

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Re: Trump Voters.... why
« Reply #1366 on: October 30, 2016, 09:44:12 PM »
I would vote for Hillary even if I was absolutely positive she were going to jail on November 9th, because I'd rather have Tim Kaine be President than Donald Trump.  It would be bad for the democratic party, but better for the country as a whole.

Gosh, you found a scenario where I would vote for Hillary!  :)
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paddedhat

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1367 on: October 31, 2016, 05:14:04 AM »
Here's another one on her campaign manager Podesta that just dropped in the last day or so.  With all this talk about Trump and all his supposed Russia ties it turns out Hillary's campaign manager Podesta has ties to a Russian energy company that he tried to hide by moving his 75000 shares to a holding company that he put his daughter in law in charge of.  Nothing here, move on sheeple.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/WikiLeaks-podesta-russian-firm/2016/10/30/id/756044/


You insert yourself into an intelligent conversation, and then offer a link to an extremist propaganda site?   Seriously?  I have been following the thread with interest, but can't imagine why Nereo, or anybody else, would waste a second responding to your comments, after you clarified that you have no interest in the truth, but are just another brain washed follower of the extreme right's bullshit.  Doesn't matter if it's either end of our political spectrum, socialism, radical Muslim beliefs, or whatever, once you have headed off into a world of nothing but propaganda and lies, you do nothing but rot your mind. It's a sad thing to watch, unhealthy for the individual, and damaging to our Democracy. 

MOD NOTE: Please refrain from personal attacks.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 03:11:39 AM by arebelspy »

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1368 on: October 31, 2016, 05:43:59 AM »
Morning paddedhat.  I honestly don't know if newsmax is right wing or not it was just linked in twitter to the email story on Podesta just like some of the CNN articles I provided.   You say I don't want the truth.  What is your truth?  I believe that story was just conveying what came out from Wikileaks.  Are you saying Wikileaks isn't true?  I admit I believe what is coming out from Wikileaks is true so maybe that makes me extreme or bias I don't know.  Here is just one of the emails from Podesta on his holdings below. In another email he discusses his daughter in law being the owner of the LLC which I can post if you'd like.




Re: Podesta Outstanding Docs for Joule


From:john.podesta@gmail.com
To: eryn.sepp@gmail.com
Date: 2014-01-07 09:18
Subject: Re: Podesta Outstanding Docs for Joule






Need to talk to fizzing

JP
--Sent from my iPad--
john.podesta@gmail.com
For scheduling: eryn.sepp@gmail.com

> On Jan 7, 2014, at 4:30 AM, Eryn Sepp <eryn.sepp@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Way above my pay grade. Take a look from Mark.
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Mark Solakian <msolakian@jouleunlimited.com>
>> Date: January 6, 2014 at 13:02:34 EST
>> To: Eryn Sepp <esepp@americanprogress.org>, "Eryn.sepp@gmail.com" <Eryn.sepp@gmail.com>
>> Cc: "rrizzi@steptoe.com" <rrizzi@steptoe.com>, "'jcobb@steptoe.com'" <jcobb@steptoe.com>
>> Subject: RE: Podesta Outstanding Docs for Joule
>> Eryn,
>>
>> Thanks for sending this set of documents and the original stock option agreement document that John found (and which we did not have in our files probably due to administrative oversight at our end which I will explain further).
>>
>> First, with respect to the stock option agreement, there is a discrepancy in the stated vesting schedule between the one John signed back in 2011 and the one I sent to Bob which you sent back to me signed. This first document shows a 3 year vesting schedule and the current one shows a 4 year schedule. Accordingly, I dug back further and confirm that the original terms were for a 4 year vesting schedule of which John was ¾ vested (this reflects what John actually exercised – i.e. 75,000 out of 100,000 options). The 4 year schedule is reflected in the “offer” letter which our previous CEO sent to John and John signed and sent back. It is also reflected in the Board minutes where John’s grant was approved. Please see the attachments for reference. The good news is that I think John understands these options to be 4 year vesting and that his exercise of 75,000 shares is correct. The original stock option agreement with the erroneous 3 year vesting was sent and signed in error due to scrivener’s error by the folks at Joule who were handling this at the time (based on what I can tell, this was prepared by a junior finance person who left the company several years ago). Bob and John Cobb and I can brainstorm on how to deal with this discrepancy – maybe some sort of acknowledgement by the Company and John Podesta that the first version was signed in error.
>>
>> Second, it is my understanding that John transferred the resulting 75,000 common shares from the option exercise to the Leonidio LLC. As such, we would need to edit the Transfer of Share Agreement to reflect the transfer of 75,000 common shares to the LLC. The LLC would also sign a form of joinder agreement covering the common shares tying them to the provisions of the 2007 Stock Plan. I am comfortable with correcting the applicable page to the Transfer Agreement to reflect the common shares as we assemble the final documentation package. I think the LLC would need to sign a form of joinder agreement with regard to the 75,000 common shares – which I hope you can help coordinate. I think Bob and John Cobb have the final documents on their system with the Podesta/LLC particulars and I can edit them if they can send to me. Everything is dated January 3, 2014 as intended.
>>
>> Perhaps Bob or John Cobb can jump in with their thoughts on how they would like to proceed.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Mark

Free_at_50

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1369 on: October 31, 2016, 06:10:18 AM »
Just so I don't offend anyone else I found another article from what google says is a left wing publication that also discusses the topic. 

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article109203877.html

Cheers!

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1370 on: October 31, 2016, 06:13:28 AM »
Morning paddedhat.  I honestly don't know if newsmax is right wing or not it was just linked in twitter to the email story on Podesta just like some of the CNN articles I provided.   You say I don't want the truth.  What is your truth?  I believe that story was just conveying what came out from Wikileaks.  Are you saying Wikileaks isn't true?  I admit I believe what is coming out from Wikileaks is true so maybe that makes me extreme or bias I don't know.  Here is just one of the emails from Podesta on his holdings below. In another email he discusses his daughter in law being the owner of the LLC which I can post if you'd like.

Newsmax is one of a handful of sites that, off the top of my head, I know anything on the other side of their URL is going to be utter bullshit.

I took entire classes in undergrad and grad school about judging sources, and I've never seen anything from Newsmax that even passes a casual once-over, let alone serious scrutiny.

nereo

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1371 on: October 31, 2016, 06:19:38 AM »
Free_50- what is it that you'd like to discuss about the last email you copied a posted? It sounds like a typical conversation to clarify vesting schedules and filing requirements.

deadlymonkey

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1372 on: October 31, 2016, 06:33:22 AM »
I find it odd that some people who decry the government's legal use of metadata analysis (no email content) have no problem with foreign government's hacking personal email accounts of private citizens and then publishing them.  These same people have no problem reading private emails nor posting snippets without context. 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1373 on: October 31, 2016, 07:04:53 AM »
Newsmax is one of a handful of sites that, off the top of my head, I know anything on the other side of their URL is going to be utter bullshit.

I took entire classes in undergrad and grad school about judging sources, and I've never seen anything from Newsmax that even passes a casual once-over, let alone serious scrutiny.
Interesting - Separating the wheat from the chaff is indeed a difficult task these days.
Can you share
1) name of classes you took which taught you to judge veracity of sources
2) list of sites you consider to be legit

paddedhat

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1374 on: October 31, 2016, 07:14:19 AM »
I find it odd that some people who decry the government's legal use of metadata analysis (no email content) have no problem with foreign government's hacking personal email accounts of private citizens and then publishing them.  These same people have no problem reading private emails nor posting snippets without context.

IMHO, the problem transcends "without context" and is a clear case of posting everyday, and harmless business discussions, with no understand of exactly what the poster has "discovered".  Specifically, this document discusses clarifications of delayed compensation agreements made when Mr. Podesta joined the board of a solar equipment manufacturer.  As for this stock being transferred to a trust, prior to Mr. Podesta once again becoming a government employee, sorry but as much as the far right would love to spin it into something nefarious and dark, it's pretty much SOP to do so, to avoid the appearance of conflict. Doesn't matter if your George W. or Podesta, you don't run a successful investment portfolio while holding office.

The second issue is the blind assumption that any information provided by wikileaks is genuine.  There is no doubt that Russia has been aggressively attempting to interfere with the election. They are the source of the information, and there is no reason to believe that, as such, they have some moral obligation to determine that all the information is complete and unaltered. Therefore it's reasonable to assume that at least some of the info. could be fabricated to do further damage to the candidate that they wish to see defeated.  Given that fact, how many "low information" right wingers are, as free at 50 is doing here, unknowingly pushing a bunch of fabricated trash, as they unwittingly promote Russia's moderately successful attempt to damage our democracy?


nereo

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1375 on: October 31, 2016, 07:45:31 AM »

The second issue is the blind assumption that any information provided by wikileaks is genuine.  There is no doubt that Russia has been aggressively attempting to interfere with the election. They are the source of the information, and there is no reason to believe that, as such, they have some moral obligation to determine that all the information is complete and unaltered. Therefore it's reasonable to assume that at least some of the info. could be fabricated to do further damage to the candidate that they wish to see defeated.  Given that fact, how many "low information" right wingers are, as free at 50 is doing here, unknowingly pushing a bunch of fabricated trash, as they unwittingly promote Russia's moderately successful attempt to damage our democracy?

Good points, paddedhat. Currently these are unverified (and perhaps unverifiable) sources of information coming through Wikileaks via Russia.  Hardly an unbiased source when it comes to US politics.

Serious question my wife raised: In the last ~3 months, has wikileaks released any 'secret' information on DJT or the upper levels of the GOP?  If not, why not?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1376 on: October 31, 2016, 08:01:50 AM »
Interesting - Separating the wheat from the chaff is indeed a difficult task these days.
Can you share
1) name of classes you took which taught you to judge veracity of sources
2) list of sites you consider to be legit

Media law and ethics, a dedicated research class, news writing, news editing, probably one or two more I'm forgetting. I trained as a journalist. Sources I like below, with the obvious caveat that individual stories can always have problems, intentional or otherwise, and I don't just put my trust blanket over my favorite sources and stop thinking after I click.

Legit sources, off the top of my head and in no particular order:
-Most of the big metro/national dailies
-ProPublica
-Vox
-FiveThirtyEight
-Wire services (AP/Reuters/AFP/Getty)
-The Economist
-Frontline
Edit: also peer-reviewed scientific publications

Farther down the list (mostly because the quality is more hit or miss):
-Huffington Post
-Slate
-Cable and broadcast news
-The Guardian
-Smaller metro papers (looking at you Advance Publications ...)

Edit: just a couple more thoughts
-I'll probably catch some flak, but I generally trust information and statistics from government agencies as well
-Most people don't separate the opinion component of media organizations from the news side (John Kass's column in today's Chicago Tribute is a great example of this)
-Most people also don't understand the walls that separate the business operations, advertising and news devisions within a media company (and why would they?)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 08:29:59 AM by NoStacheOhio »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1377 on: October 31, 2016, 08:05:35 AM »
The second issue is the blind assumption that any information provided by wikileaks is genuine.  There is no doubt that Russia has been aggressively attempting to interfere with the election. They are the source of the information, and there is no reason to believe that, as such, they have some moral obligation to determine that all the information is complete and unaltered. Therefore it's reasonable to assume that at least some of the info. could be fabricated to do further damage to the candidate that they wish to see defeated.  Given that fact, how many "low information" right wingers are, as free at 50 is doing here, unknowingly pushing a bunch of fabricated trash, as they unwittingly promote Russia's moderately successful attempt to damage our democracy?

It hadn't really occurred to me until now, but using portions of truth/legit information as part of an information warfare campaign is also pretty common for sophisticated intelligence services. Just looking historically, the allies sent the Nazis a lot of legit information that was slightly out of date, or things that were almost true as part of the war effort.

Why isn't the FBI director investigating Donald Trump and his campaign with respect to the illegal hacking of Democratic party member email accounts? Donald Trump said he wants Russia to hack the Democratic Party emails, Donald Trump has business dealings in Russia and praises Putin, and the security apparatus of the federal government has determined that these email hacks come from Russia.

Trump said that if Russia had the emails, then they should release them. That's not a crime. Please tell us what law was broken?

He's flirting with a Logan Act violation there.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 08:07:30 AM by NoStacheOhio »

paddedhat

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1378 on: October 31, 2016, 08:58:57 AM »

Good points, paddedhat. Currently these are unverified (and perhaps unverifiable) sources of information coming through Wikileaks via Russia.  Hardly an unbiased source when it comes to US politics.

Serious question my wife raised: In the last ~3 months, has wikileaks released any 'secret' information on DJT or the upper levels of the GOP?  If not, why not?

I tend to go with the thought that what you have is two dictators (one real, one harboring a well documented obsession with admiration for, and wanting to be one) who are engaged in a real bromance. I find it quite telling that during the debates, Hillary could deftly bait the Donald, on almost ANY subject, and he would respond like a dog on a steak that just fell off the grille.  Yet, he simply refused to snap any time she tried to link him with Putin, or Russia. In the final round, I was slackjawed when he tried to deny Russia's involvement with the leaks that HE encouraged, then still repeatedly babbled, "you don't know"  as he talked over her, while she was reminding him of what he was told in intelligence briefings. That being that seventeen American Agencies confirm that Russia was the source. 

The bottom line is that Putin hates the US democracy, and wishes to destabilize us. If he can promote Trump and his army of low information "deplorables" as a force for continually degrading the institution, long after the election, he wins.  Just as it is a tragic error to, as a candidate, play into to the hands of  ISIS by shit talking about bans, and registries,  it's just as damaging to talk trash about non-existent election rigging, and promoting the Russian lead document dumps. Putin couldn't ask for a more cooperative partner when it comes to a presidential candidate.

On a related note, that really grinds me. There is one huge issue with Mr. Trump that IMHO hasn't gotten the attention it deserves. As a lifelong tradesman and construction company owner is the greater NYC metro market, like many, I was aware of a dangerous game played by the old school Mafia, and  other wanabees, who thought they were just as bad assed. It's the technique of contracting work, waiting until completion, then declaring that the work is inferior, and you have no intention of ever paying for it. Early in my career, as a business owner, I narrowly escaped this situation. I had met with the owner of a very large project, who really "just knew I was they guy he needed" Fortunately, some type of "spidey sense" told me that a lot of due diligence was required before I invested roughly 75% of my annual revenue on a project with a guy I didn't know, or trust. ( this guy was a classic "wise guy" who looked, talked and acted like he was playing a part in a Mafia movie) Other small local contractors, who took various sub-contracts on the job, ended up losing everything after the owner told then that their work sucked, and they better find a lawyer if they ever hoped to get paid.  Unfortunately, by the 1990s, Mr Trump had made quite a reputation for doing this to countless small, family owned businesses, many who were driven into ruin, as his lawyer told them, "Mr Trump has decided to not pay you the remainder of your contract. You might recover your funds in court, but I will assure you that it will be at least seven years from now, any you will probably be lucky to cover your legal fees" All of this is well documented, and well know in the industry.

This brings me to my question. If you are a Trump supporter, HOW THE FUCK can you justify voting for a man who would ask you, your neighbor, or your brother, to sign a contract to do work for him, put everything on the line to do the work in a manner that they can take pride in, they have their business destroyed, and be left in financial ruin, just because Mr. Trump knew he had the power to steal your money, and get away with it? This was not some rouge operation inside the Trump organization. This is the man himself. The guy who has a chance of becoming the next leader of the free world, and had a well documented history of flat out stealing for hard working small business people, driving them into bankruptcy and ruining their futures, just because he could. WTF are you thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 09:27:28 AM by paddedhat »

tyort1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1379 on: October 31, 2016, 09:42:02 AM »
I have many family members that are Trump supporters (I am from Texas, after all).  Here's what I understand - they feel that they have been screwed over economically and left behind in many senses from the greater, overall prosperity we've had since the great recession of 2008. 

They are justified in their anger - their jobs have been "fleeing the country" to quote Trump.  And being replaced by automation.  I know, I used to work for a company that specialized in outsourcing.  These decisions to outsource jobs is a decision that companies make, not the government. 

What I don't understand is why the Trump supporters get mad at the immigrants and the government, and not the corporations.  The corps are the ones ACTUALLY deciding to send jobs overseas. 

It's so mis-placed, I don't really understand it.

ender

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1380 on: October 31, 2016, 09:43:00 AM »
What I don't understand is why the Trump supporters get mad at the immigrants and the government, and not the corporations.  The corps are the ones ACTUALLY deciding to send jobs overseas. 

It's so mis-placed, I don't really understand it.

You do realize that government policies make things like outsourcing more or less financially attractive for companies... right?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1381 on: October 31, 2016, 09:50:45 AM »
You do realize that government policies make things like outsourcing more or less financially attractive for companies... right?

You do realize that it's capitalism that makes outsourcing attractive, right?  In this case, it's the LACK of protectionist policies that make it financially viable, because the free market says it's viable.  Why are you trying to distort the market?

Isn't it weird that the same people who decry government intervention as evil also decry the lack of government intervention, on this topic?  Is more government regulation the problem or the solution?

tyort1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1382 on: October 31, 2016, 09:53:19 AM »
Agreed with sol (hmmm, that seems to happen often).  He's right, it's a function of a free market.  Protectionism is a form of government intervention.  Unless you are saying that government interference in the economy is a good thing?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1383 on: October 31, 2016, 09:53:32 AM »
It's funny, but I bet this election will be looked back on in 100 years as the first baby steps at dealing with post-industrialism in the US.

We have many times more productive capacity than we need to provide for everyone's needs, and we have a lot of people who no longer (and probably never will) have economically useful skills/talents. That is a really hard spot to be in - do you just redistribute wealth and let the less talented live lives of idleness? Do you come up with some kind of make-work program? I don't know.

The reality is that jobs for low skill workers in factories are never coming back. Neither candidate has really explained how they would deal with it, but Trump's (low detail) promises to bring manufacturing back to the US, even if successful, wouldn't get any of those folks their jobs back. Clinton wants to retrain people or something, but really a lot of these folks aren't retrainable to the point where they're employable in a middle-class level job.

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tyort1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1384 on: October 31, 2016, 09:59:15 AM »
I think part of the solution would be to move to where the new jobs are.  You are never going to revitalize a community that's built around a single industry that has abandoned it. 

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1385 on: October 31, 2016, 09:59:23 AM »
It's funny, but I bet this election will be looked back on in 100 years as the first baby steps at dealing with post-industrialism in the US.

We have many times more productive capacity than we need to provide for everyone's needs, and we have a lot of people who no longer (and probably never will) have economically useful skills/talents. That is a really hard spot to be in - do you just redistribute wealth and let the less talented live lives of idleness? Do you come up with some kind of make-work program? I don't know.

The reality is that jobs for low skill workers in factories are never coming back. Neither candidate has really explained how they would deal with it, but Trump's (low detail) promises to bring manufacturing back to the US, even if successful, wouldn't get any of those folks their jobs back. Clinton wants to retrain people or something, but really a lot of these folks aren't retrainable to the point where they're employable in a middle-class level job.

-W

I may or may not have been shouting something to this effect at my television during the debates ...

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1386 on: October 31, 2016, 10:04:12 AM »
This brings me to my question. If you are a Trump supporter, HOW THE FUCK can you justify voting for a man who would ask you, your neighbor, or your brother, to sign a contract to do work for him, put everything on the line to do the work in a manner that they can take pride in, they have their business destroyed, and be left in financial ruin, just because Mr. Trump knew he had the power to steal your money, and get away with it? This was not some rouge operation inside the Trump organization. This is the man himself. The guy who has a chance of becoming the next leader of the free world, and had a well documented history of flat out stealing for hard working small business people, driving them into bankruptcy and ruining their futures, just because he could. WTF are you thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

+1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1387 on: October 31, 2016, 10:09:00 AM »
I think part of the solution would be to move to where the new jobs are.  You are never going to revitalize a community that's built around a single industry that has abandoned it.

Maybe a little bit. But low skill jobs in *all* industries are disappearing. We're just too good at making all the stuff we need. 150 years ago something like 50% of the entire country was farmers - now it's less than 2 percent. No problem, those folks all moved into the factories! Except, crap, we are mechanizing those too.

There is going to be a low-skill labor surplus for a long, long time. Maybe forever. There could very well be a high-skill labor surplus soon too, as computers get better at doing things like writing news articles. I'm not sure what we do about that. I'd love to hear a presidential candidate say the same thing "this is a hard problem and we don't have an answer yet".

-W

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1388 on: October 31, 2016, 10:46:23 AM »
I think part of the solution would be to move to where the new jobs are.  You are never going to revitalize a community that's built around a single industry that has abandoned it.

Maybe a little bit. But low skill jobs in *all* industries are disappearing. We're just too good at making all the stuff we need. 150 years ago something like 50% of the entire country was farmers - now it's less than 2 percent. No problem, those folks all moved into the factories! Except, crap, we are mechanizing those too.

There is going to be a low-skill labor surplus for a long, long time. Maybe forever. There could very well be a high-skill labor surplus soon too, as computers get better at doing things like writing news articles. I'm not sure what we do about that. I'd love to hear a presidential candidate say the same thing "this is a hard problem and we don't have an answer yet".

-W

Exactly. This is a huge (yuge?) problem with Trump. He tells people who have low-skilled labor jobs (or who have lost them) that he's going to bring them back. And they believe him. He isn't bringing them back and he knows he isn't bringing them back. And he doesn't care. I'm not saying that other politicians care about those people all that much, either, but at least some of them will pursue realistic solutions to re-employing them. Clinton at least has some ideas about it. Trump doesn't give a rat's ass about re-employing them, or finding solutions, or anything. Which makes Trump the absolute worst candidate for them to vote for.

tyort1

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1389 on: October 31, 2016, 10:54:30 AM »
I think part of the solution would be to move to where the new jobs are.  You are never going to revitalize a community that's built around a single industry that has abandoned it.

Maybe a little bit. But low skill jobs in *all* industries are disappearing. We're just too good at making all the stuff we need. 150 years ago something like 50% of the entire country was farmers - now it's less than 2 percent. No problem, those folks all moved into the factories! Except, crap, we are mechanizing those too.

There is going to be a low-skill labor surplus for a long, long time. Maybe forever. There could very well be a high-skill labor surplus soon too, as computers get better at doing things like writing news articles. I'm not sure what we do about that. I'd love to hear a presidential candidate say the same thing "this is a hard problem and we don't have an answer yet".

-W

It's an interesting idea.  If you are willing to live modestly, you can skip "early retirement" and just go straight to not needing to work at all.  But that sort of begs the question - who pays?  It's great that things get produced, but it's hard to keep someone producing stuff if they don't make money at it. 

sol

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1390 on: October 31, 2016, 11:09:58 AM »
It's great that things get produced, but it's hard to keep someone producing stuff if they don't make money at it.

Why do we need people to produce stuff at all, if machines can do it for us?  Did farmers suddenly stop growing food when tractors came along and put all of those manual farm workers out of a job?

I don't think abundance of production (supply of goods) is the problem.  I think demand for those goods is the problem.  If machines get so good at everything that unemployment spikes to 90%, most people could have zero income.  With zero income they can't buy stuff.  Capitalism depends on people working hard to earn money to buy crap they don't really need.  If you take the people out of the equation, who buys all that crap?

One obvious answer is to use that technological surplus to just give people money with which to buy the stuff the machines make.  Money is just an artificial placeholder for value anyway, so why not?  The state of Alaska already pays every Alaska resident an annual dividend (from the technological surplus of industrialized oil extraction) so it's not like there's no precedent.  Young and old, rich or poor, everyone gets a check because the state just has so much abundance.

Another (less obvious) answer is to just convince everyone to stop buying all that crap.  As an example, the MMM family could never work another day in their lives and yet still somehow miraculously have all of their needs met for the rest of their lives, by spending the interest on their invested assets.  At how many times in history has it been possible for an average family to spend most of it's lifetime doing zero work, and yet still live a life of luxury?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1391 on: October 31, 2016, 11:21:59 AM »

This brings me to my question. If you are a Trump supporter, HOW THE FUCK can you justify voting for a man who would ask you, your neighbor, or your brother, to sign a contract to do work for him, put everything on the line to do the work in a manner that they can take pride in, they have their business destroyed, and be left in financial ruin, just because Mr. Trump knew he had the power to steal your money, and get away with it? This was not some rouge operation inside the Trump organization. This is the man himself. The guy who has a chance of becoming the next leader of the free world, and had a well documented history of flat out stealing for hard working small business people, driving them into bankruptcy and ruining their futures, just because he could. WTF are you thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seems germane that Trump is also disputing payment on campaign work, in case we thought this was from his deep past:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/31/donald-trump-is-refusing-to-pay-his-campaign-pollster-nearly-three-quarters-of-a-million-dollars/?postshare=5031477933958334&tid=ss_fb

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1392 on: October 31, 2016, 12:24:46 PM »
Hello all. Back to address a few things that have been posted in my absence. Podesta putting his assets into separate entity that he has no control over would be normal except in this case two things if you read the Miami Herald article.  First his daughter in law is the owner of the entity he created and the article goes on to discuss how he was trying to pitch the company to the Secretary of Energy while still having a family interest in the company at a minimum.  Both of these things are not good. 

In regards to the Wikileaks emails, first I don't believe it has truly been verified that Podesta was hacked by Russia.  I actually read somewhere that a group from Ukraine has taken responsibility in relation to a fishing email that was sent to him.  One other possibility was a smart phone he lost that someone asserted was maybe hacked.  And to date to my knowledge not one email (other than an email from Donna Brazile leaking a question to Hillary's campaign during one of the Bernie debates) has been challenged.  Regardless my opinion is if they don't have anything to hide it wouldn't matter.  That is pretty much what they have said about Trump.  Wikileaks has stuff but it is reveals nothing that people don't already know about him.  At least that is what they say.  But hey someone did leak a video of Trump as well as one of his tax returns too which the Clinton campaign and press got a lot of mileage out of.  Is that ok with anyone that think Wikileaks is wrong?

Let me play devils advocate on the payment of subcontractors issue.  I have built many buildings, roads, etc. over the years and at times when the subcontractor, architect, or engineer didn't do a good job they didn't always get paid in full and they knew why.  If you had someone working on your house and they messed something up or didn't do what you asked would you pay them in full?  And last but not least even if what you say is true, with Trump being so well known, why would anyone in their right mind do any work for him if he was truly ripping people off all the time?  His company just finished renovating the Old Post Office building into a luxury hotel so someone is still willing to do work for him despite your assertion he robs all his subcontractors.  Again I will say that based on what I know he pushes things to the limit which comes off as seedy but not illegal but anyone that does business with him must know the risk.

Regarding the Washington Post article, isn't that a left wing newspaper?  Just sayin.  Let me know if I missed any other responses. 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1393 on: October 31, 2016, 12:38:43 PM »
Hello all. Back to address a few things that have been posted in my absence. Podesta putting his assets into separate entity that he has no control over would be normal except in this case two things if you read the Miami Herald article.  First his daughter in law is the owner of the entity he created and the article goes on to discuss how he was trying to pitch the company to the Secretary of Energy while still having a family interest in the company at a minimum.  Both of these things are not good. 

In regards to the Wikileaks emails, first I don't believe it has truly been verified that Podesta was hacked by Russia.  I actually read somewhere that a group from Ukraine has taken responsibility in relation to a fishing email that was sent to him.  One other possibility was a smart phone he lost that someone asserted was maybe hacked.  And to date to my knowledge not one email (other than an email from Donna Brazile leaking a question to Hillary's campaign during one of the Bernie debates) has been challenged.  Regardless my opinion is if they don't have anything to hide it wouldn't matter.  That is pretty much what they have said about Trump.  Wikileaks has stuff but it is reveals nothing that people don't already know about him.  At least that is what they say.  But hey someone did leak a video of Trump as well as one of his tax returns too which the Clinton campaign and press got a lot of mileage out of.  Is that ok with anyone that think Wikileaks is wrong?

Let me play devils advocate on the payment of subcontractors issue.  I have built many buildings, roads, etc. over the years and at times when the subcontractor, architect, or engineer didn't do a good job they didn't always get paid in full and they knew why.  If you had someone working on your house and they messed something up or didn't do what you asked would you pay them in full?  And last but not least even if what you say is true, with Trump being so well known, why would anyone in their right mind do any work for him if he was truly ripping people off all the time?  His company just finished renovating the Old Post Office building into a luxury hotel so someone is still willing to do work for him despite your assertion he robs all his subcontractors.  Again I will say that based on what I know he pushes things to the limit which comes off as seedy but not illegal but anyone that does business with him must know the risk.

Regarding the Washington Post article, isn't that a left wing newspaper?  Just sayin.  Let me know if I missed any other responses.

No. Just no. Step out of the Breitbart echo chamber.

Historically, they sort of slot in between NYT (which is more to the left) and WSJ (which is more to the right) on the continuum. But you're confusing news operations with the editorial board and opinion writers.

Their home market (D.C.) is culturally pretty conservative compared to New York City. WaPo tends to act more like a huge regional that other people around the country happen to read, whereas the NYT is truly a national paper.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1394 on: October 31, 2016, 12:41:03 PM »
Good speech from contrarian Peter Thiel
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/tech-titan-peter-thiel-explains-support-donald-trump/story?id=43191938

"We’re voting for Trump because we judge the leadership of our country to have failed."

"I don't agree with everything Donald Trump has said and done — and I don't think the millions of other people voting for him do, either,"

"A normal country doesn't have a half-trillion-dollar trade deficit. A normal country doesn't fight five simultaneous undeclared wars. In a normal country, the government actually does its job."

"Nobody would suggest that Donald Trump is a humble man," Thiel said. "But the big things he's right about amount to a much-needed dose of humility in our politics."

Zuckerberg:  “There are many reasons a person might support Trump that do not involve racism, sexism, xenophobia or accepting sexual assault”

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1395 on: October 31, 2016, 12:42:04 PM »
You do realize that government policies make things like outsourcing more or less financially attractive for companies... right?

You do realize that it's capitalism that makes outsourcing attractive, right?  In this case, it's the LACK of protectionist policies that make it financially viable, because the free market says it's viable.  Why are you trying to distort the market?

Isn't it weird that the same people who decry government intervention as evil also decry the lack of government intervention, on this topic?  Is more government regulation the problem or the solution?

A yuuuuge reason for corporations outsourcing is the US corporate tax rate.  It's not "intervention" to want the government to reduce the corporate tax rate to encourage domestic investment. 

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1396 on: October 31, 2016, 01:02:19 PM »
A vote for Trump as a vote against the existing system makes sense.

The problem is that in Trump's case, there's not really any evidence that he A) has any interest in solving the problems, or B) understands them.

Bomb throwing is easy. Thinking about hard problems and how to solve them (and admitting that sometimes they can't be solved at all) is much more important to me.

-W

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1397 on: October 31, 2016, 01:03:09 PM »
Right now, I think the correct question might be: Clinton voters...why?

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1398 on: October 31, 2016, 01:03:51 PM »
A vote for Trump as a vote against the existing system makes sense.

The problem is that in Trump's case, there's not really any evidence that he A) has any interest in solving the problems, or B) understands them.

Bomb throwing is easy. Thinking about hard problems and how to solve them (and admitting that sometimes they can't be solved at all) is much more important to me.

-W

Yes. Also, bomb throwing is easy when you feel comfortable enough in your life that your life is located outside the range of the destruction.

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Re: Trump Voters.... why?
« Reply #1399 on: October 31, 2016, 01:07:48 PM »
Hello all. Back to address a few things that have been posted in my absence. Podesta putting his assets into separate entity that he has no control over would be normal except in this case two things if you read the Miami Herald article.  First his daughter in law is the owner of the entity he created and the article goes on to discuss how he was trying to pitch the company to the Secretary of Energy while still having a family interest in the company at a minimum.  Both of these things are not good. 


I'm a bit baffled about how you can equate potential conflicts of interest of John Podesta with Donald Trump.  One is a private citizen working as a private advisor.  The other is actually running for political office.  To be clear, Trump has refused to put any of his assets into a blind trust, and yet should he be elected he will have direct influence over policy.  He's even proposing changes to the tax code that would massively benefit him and his family.  That's the very definition of 'conflict of interest'. Then there's Podesta.  He's an advisor.  He lobbies for a position.  That's what advisors do.  HRC isn't beholden to him or his opinions in any way.
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Regarding the Washington Post article, isn't that a left wing newspaper?  Just sayin.
left-wing?  definitely not.  This chart does a good job showing Ideological placement of various news sources.  Note the average person is considered slightly left of neutral.  Fox news is almost twice as far to the right of average as WaPo is to the left of average.  The New Yorker and Slate might qualify as "Left-Wing" while Drudge, Breitbart, Rush are "right-wing"
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 01:10:37 PM by nereo »