Author Topic: Is the market overpriced?  (Read 3532 times)

climbingbum

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Is the market overpriced?
« on: November 18, 2024, 10:29:52 AM »
I'm struggling with feeling like the market is currently overpriced. I know it's not wise to try to time the market, but is it obvious right now? Or am I getting caught up in opinions, PE ratios, etc? I currently have a good sum of cash waiting to invest, and I'm not sure if I should keep waiting or if I should start investing again. I'm only 25 so I feel like I may need to just keep investing and not worry about it. Any advice?

wenchsenior

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2024, 10:40:34 AM »
TOP IS IN!!!!
:sarcasm:

wenchsenior

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2024, 10:41:42 AM »
If you are planning for long term savings/investment, just stick with whatever plan you have. Timing the market is a loser's game in the long run. Usually also in the short run.

reeshau

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2024, 10:49:30 AM »
It is only ever obvious in hindsight.  If the market was obviously going to go up, it would go up.  It f it was obviously going to go down, it would go down.  One concept that might help is the "wall of worry."  There are always reasons for disaster ahead.  Elections, wars, economic cycles, etc.  The market has been through them, and will go through more.

You are 25.  Whether you want to retire at 65 or 40, whatever happens now will just be a blip.  And, no matter what your future plans, you are investing until 85, anyway--or whatever you think your life expectancy is.

The water's fine; come on in.  If you are worried that a short-term drop would spook you, then make a plan and stick with it: for example, 1/2 now, and 1/2 six months from now.  Or, 1/4 for the next four quarters.  This way will not maximize your returns, but will also help to mitigate short-term risk.

Don't chase phantoms trying to maximize your return with get-rich-quick schemes.  Gain certainty over your plans by capturing the market return over your lifetime.

GilesMM

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2024, 11:15:02 AM »
You would be in good company with Warren Buffett if you decided to move to cash now.

Tasse

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2024, 11:34:21 AM »
Who cares! The best part of index investing (imo) is not having to follow absolutely any news about the market. If it keeps going up, that'll be fun to make graphs of. If it goes down, we'll keep buying at discount prices. Our plan is the same either way. It's tremendously freeing.

Especially at 25, with years of saving ahead of you, the difference between the market valuation today and tomorrow just doesn't matter that much. The only people who need to worry about an imminent drop are recent retirees who can't keep investing through the recovery.

Tasse

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2024, 11:41:53 AM »
Here's JL Collins discussing almost your exact problem over 10 years ago: https://jlcollinsnh.com/2013/05/22/stocks-part-xviii-investing-in-a-raging-bull/

GuitarStv

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2024, 11:44:43 AM »
The market is almost always looking overpriced because it goes up over time and you can only see past values on the chart.

dandarc

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2024, 11:49:27 AM »

RWD

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2024, 12:58:41 PM »
I'm struggling with feeling like the market is currently overpriced. I know it's not wise to try to time the market, but is it obvious right now? Or am I getting caught up in opinions, PE ratios, etc? I currently have a good sum of cash waiting to invest, and I'm not sure if I should keep waiting or if I should start investing again. I'm only 25 so I feel like I may need to just keep investing and not worry about it. Any advice?

At 25 you've got a very long investment horizon. Definitely don't worry about today's valuations for money you won't be touching for decades. You should have an investment policy statement (if you don't, write one). Follow that and let time do its thing.


@RWD
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 10:03:20 PM by RWD »

SilentC

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2024, 09:15:59 PM »
90% VTI isn’t the only way to achieve FI quickly.  You can take some chips off the table, especially when cash is yielding over 4%.  I’m not trying to time the market but my equity portfolio is down to about 65% now just from selling stocks that have crushed my price targets. 

Tyson

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2024, 11:19:46 PM »
Fear is back, VIX above 15, XIV breaking down. SPY to follow, earnings will be a reality check.

LD_TAndK

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2024, 03:25:02 AM »
Keep investing, don't worry. Don't listen to all the speculation about things nobody can predict. Focus on your own life. In ten years you'll be filthy rich and realize all the worrying was for naught.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2024, 03:29:26 AM by LD_TAndK »

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2024, 04:34:14 AM »
You would be in good company with Warren Buffett if you decided to move to cash now.

94 year old, billionaire Warren Buffett probably has different goals than 25 year old, W-2 employee climbingbum no?

GilesMM

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2024, 07:13:42 AM »
You would be in good company with Warren Buffett if you decided to move to cash now.

94 year old, billionaire Warren Buffett probably has different goals than 25 year old, W-2 employee climbingbum no?


His stated goal has always been to invest long term for maximum return and that hasn't changed as far as I know.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2024, 07:39:33 AM »
You would be in good company with Warren Buffett if you decided to move to cash now.

94 year old, billionaire Warren Buffett probably has different goals than 25 year old, W-2 employee climbingbum no?


His stated goal has always been to invest long term for maximum return and that hasn't changed as far as I know.

I don't know if 'maximum return' is really what most people into ER are aiming for.  If you get maximum return in the long run, but some years you're 70-80% down because of wild fluctuations it's going to be pretty scary and likely mean that you have to return to work.  At the least it would probably lead to some sleepless nights.  I've found that many people overestimate their risk tolerance when times are good.

GilesMM

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2024, 08:23:44 AM »
You would be in good company with Warren Buffett if you decided to move to cash now.

94 year old, billionaire Warren Buffett probably has different goals than 25 year old, W-2 employee climbingbum no?


His stated goal has always been to invest long term for maximum return and that hasn't changed as far as I know.

I don't know if 'maximum return' is really what most people into ER are aiming for.  If you get maximum return in the long run, but some years you're 70-80% down because of wild fluctuations it's going to be pretty scary and likely mean that you have to return to work.  At the least it would probably lead to some sleepless nights.  I've found that many people overestimate their risk tolerance when times are good.


Many people panic in downturns and too many sell, lock in the losses, and miss the recovery.  If you can't stomach fluctuations, you will need to lower your risk and your returns which means saving more and/or working longer.

GuitarStv

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2024, 08:38:23 AM »
You would be in good company with Warren Buffett if you decided to move to cash now.

94 year old, billionaire Warren Buffett probably has different goals than 25 year old, W-2 employee climbingbum no?


His stated goal has always been to invest long term for maximum return and that hasn't changed as far as I know.

I don't know if 'maximum return' is really what most people into ER are aiming for.  If you get maximum return in the long run, but some years you're 70-80% down because of wild fluctuations it's going to be pretty scary and likely mean that you have to return to work.  At the least it would probably lead to some sleepless nights.  I've found that many people overestimate their risk tolerance when times are good.


Many people panic in downturns and too many sell, lock in the losses, and miss the recovery.  If you can't stomach fluctuations, you will need to lower your risk and your returns which means saving more and/or working longer.

Even if you can stomach them, it probably doesn't lead to a very enjoyable retirement constantly being stressed.

GilesMM

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2024, 08:44:05 AM »
You would be in good company with Warren Buffett if you decided to move to cash now.

94 year old, billionaire Warren Buffett probably has different goals than 25 year old, W-2 employee climbingbum no?


His stated goal has always been to invest long term for maximum return and that hasn't changed as far as I know.

I don't know if 'maximum return' is really what most people into ER are aiming for.  If you get maximum return in the long run, but some years you're 70-80% down because of wild fluctuations it's going to be pretty scary and likely mean that you have to return to work.  At the least it would probably lead to some sleepless nights.  I've found that many people overestimate their risk tolerance when times are good.


Many people panic in downturns and too many sell, lock in the losses, and miss the recovery.  If you can't stomach fluctuations, you will need to lower your risk and your returns which means saving more and/or working longer.

Even if you can stomach them, it probably doesn't lead to a very enjoyable retirement constantly being stressed.




Exactly, it would be a nightmare which leads many people to alternatives like real estate, annuities, pensions or TIPS ladders and their associated risks/returns.

SilentC

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2024, 10:53:52 AM »
You would be in good company with Warren Buffett if you decided to move to cash now.

94 year old, billionaire Warren Buffett probably has different goals than 25 year old, W-2 employee climbingbum no?


His stated goal has always been to invest long term for maximum return and that hasn't changed as far as I know.

I don't know if 'maximum return' is really what most people into ER are aiming for.  If you get maximum return in the long run, but some years you're 70-80% down because of wild fluctuations it's going to be pretty scary and likely mean that you have to return to work.  At the least it would probably lead to some sleepless nights.  I've found that many people overestimate their risk tolerance when times are good.


Many people panic in downturns and too many sell, lock in the losses, and miss the recovery.  If you can't stomach fluctuations, you will need to lower your risk and your returns which means saving more and/or working longer.

Knowing what you own and taking some control over your investments is a ton of hard work but it’s intellectually stimulating, and it does mostly take panic out of the equation.  I’ve never not been a buyer into a market meltdown because I know what to expect based on prior scenarios analyzed around my investments and new investments I’m making in a panic.  Sometimes I am wrong but even in the depths of the GFC and tech bubble bursting there was never an “oh sh*t sell sell sell” moment.  Maybe that’s a little off the question but another reason to consider going beyond indexing and just riding the index. You can have a more resilient mind when things go poorly in the markets and you can match your risk tolerance to your portfolio.  Riding index funds, given most are cap weighted, is basically just agreeing to do what’s consensus which also never resonated.  It’s a very personal thing though.

Tasse

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2024, 03:05:00 PM »
Knowing what you own and taking some control over your investments is a ton of hard work but it’s intellectually stimulating, and it does mostly take panic out of the equation.  I’ve never not been a buyer into a market meltdown because I know what to expect based on prior scenarios analyzed around my investments and new investments I’m making in a panic.  Sometimes I am wrong but even in the depths of the GFC and tech bubble bursting there was never an “oh sh*t sell sell sell” moment.  Maybe that’s a little off the question but another reason to consider going beyond indexing and just riding the index. You can have a more resilient mind when things go poorly in the markets and you can match your risk tolerance to your portfolio.  Riding index funds, given most are cap weighted, is basically just agreeing to do what’s consensus which also never resonated.  It’s a very personal thing though.

Opposite opinion here. Picking stocks means taking on the pressure to get it right. For me, that would mean tons of stress and wasted brainspace.

Indexing works. It's simple, I trust it, and I have more worthwhile things to put my mind to.

JAYSLOL

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2024, 04:15:48 PM »
Knowing what you own and taking some control over your investments is a ton of hard work but it’s intellectually stimulating, and it does mostly take panic out of the equation.  I’ve never not been a buyer into a market meltdown because I know what to expect based on prior scenarios analyzed around my investments and new investments I’m making in a panic.  Sometimes I am wrong but even in the depths of the GFC and tech bubble bursting there was never an “oh sh*t sell sell sell” moment.  Maybe that’s a little off the question but another reason to consider going beyond indexing and just riding the index. You can have a more resilient mind when things go poorly in the markets and you can match your risk tolerance to your portfolio.  Riding index funds, given most are cap weighted, is basically just agreeing to do what’s consensus which also never resonated.  It’s a very personal thing though.

Opposite opinion here. Picking stocks means taking on the pressure to get it right. For me, that would mean tons of stress and wasted brainspace.

Indexing works. It's simple, I trust it, and I have more worthwhile things to put my mind to.

+1
I’m reminded of the old MMM blog post about how it’s better and much easier to focus on being in the top % of savers, than the top % of investors.  I’ll stick to boring 10% index funds and a 50% savings rate rather than spend all my effort chasing 15-20% gains while saving the average 5%.

SilentC

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2024, 04:35:58 PM »
Knowing what you own and taking some control over your investments is a ton of hard work but it’s intellectually stimulating, and it does mostly take panic out of the equation.  I’ve never not been a buyer into a market meltdown because I know what to expect based on prior scenarios analyzed around my investments and new investments I’m making in a panic.  Sometimes I am wrong but even in the depths of the GFC and tech bubble bursting there was never an “oh sh*t sell sell sell” moment.  Maybe that’s a little off the question but another reason to consider going beyond indexing and just riding the index. You can have a more resilient mind when things go poorly in the markets and you can match your risk tolerance to your portfolio.  Riding index funds, given most are cap weighted, is basically just agreeing to do what’s consensus which also never resonated.  It’s a very personal thing though.

Opposite opinion here. Picking stocks means taking on the pressure to get it right. For me, that would mean tons of stress and wasted brainspace.

Indexing works. It's simple, I trust it, and I have more worthwhile things to put my mind to.


Yeah you have to enjoy solving puzzles and learning about businesses.  It’s very humbling being wrong a lot but going through life more humbled is not a bad thing.  I have changed careers, needed to focus on parenting etc and put investments on the back burner many times.  I have also used investing to keep me off Netflix and keep my mind sharp.  It’s all personal and depends on your goals in life and interests. 

If you trust indexing and you’ve been through some cycles and this trust has maintained it’s a very good strategy. 

Tasse

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2024, 04:52:40 PM »
Knowing what you own and taking some control over your investments is a ton of hard work but it’s intellectually stimulating, and it does mostly take panic out of the equation.  I’ve never not been a buyer into a market meltdown because I know what to expect based on prior scenarios analyzed around my investments and new investments I’m making in a panic.  Sometimes I am wrong but even in the depths of the GFC and tech bubble bursting there was never an “oh sh*t sell sell sell” moment.  Maybe that’s a little off the question but another reason to consider going beyond indexing and just riding the index. You can have a more resilient mind when things go poorly in the markets and you can match your risk tolerance to your portfolio.  Riding index funds, given most are cap weighted, is basically just agreeing to do what’s consensus which also never resonated.  It’s a very personal thing though.

Opposite opinion here. Picking stocks means taking on the pressure to get it right. For me, that would mean tons of stress and wasted brainspace.

Indexing works. It's simple, I trust it, and I have more worthwhile things to put my mind to.


Yeah you have to enjoy solving puzzles and learning about businesses.  It’s very humbling being wrong a lot but going through life more humbled is not a bad thing.  I have changed careers, needed to focus on parenting etc and put investments on the back burner many times.  I have also used investing to keep me off Netflix and keep my mind sharp.  It’s all personal and depends on your goals in life and interests. 

If you trust indexing and you’ve been through some cycles and this trust has maintained it’s a very good strategy. 

I LOVE solving puzzles. I do not like to gamble my future on my puzzle solving ability.

reeshau

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2024, 05:53:06 PM »
Knowing what you own and taking some control over your investments is a ton of hard work but it’s intellectually stimulating, and it does mostly take panic out of the equation.  I’ve never not been a buyer into a market meltdown because I know what to expect based on prior scenarios analyzed around my investments and new investments I’m making in a panic.  Sometimes I am wrong but even in the depths of the GFC and tech bubble bursting there was never an “oh sh*t sell sell sell” moment.  Maybe that’s a little off the question but another reason to consider going beyond indexing and just riding the index. You can have a more resilient mind when things go poorly in the markets and you can match your risk tolerance to your portfolio.  Riding index funds, given most are cap weighted, is basically just agreeing to do what’s consensus which also never resonated.  It’s a very personal thing though.

Opposite opinion here. Picking stocks means taking on the pressure to get it right. For me, that would mean tons of stress and wasted brainspace.

Indexing works. It's simple, I trust it, and I have more worthwhile things to put my mind to.


Yeah you have to enjoy solving puzzles and learning about businesses.  It’s very humbling being wrong a lot but going through life more humbled is not a bad thing.  I have changed careers, needed to focus on parenting etc and put investments on the back burner many times.  I have also used investing to keep me off Netflix and keep my mind sharp.  It’s all personal and depends on your goals in life and interests. 

If you trust indexing and you’ve been through some cycles and this trust has maintained it’s a very good strategy. 

I LOVE solving puzzles. I do not like to gamble my future on my puzzle solving ability.

Individual stock investor here. It's not for everyone.  Heck, it's not for most; particularly, it's not for everyone who tries it.

It is also not a switch to flip on or off.  If you are interested, and want to learn, then by all means continue indexing for most of your investments, to give you certainty and diversification.  Start off with a stock or two, exploring a particular investment approach, or within an industry that you have expertise in.

Tasse

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2024, 07:27:26 PM »
I'm sorry for disparaging your hobby, but personally I am not remotely interested. I love index investing because it is both extremely effective and extremely low effort.

Wolfpack Mustachian

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2024, 09:13:05 PM »
I'm sorry for disparaging your hobby, but personally I am not remotely interested. I love index investing because it is both extremely effective and extremely low effort.

I'm with you. Ironically, I'm extremely interested in lost everything financial related - saving money, efficiency, credit card hacking, tax optimization, etc, except for stock picking. I guess it's possible that my failures early on even with effort dissuaded me from it. Also the whole - even professionals don't do better than index funds reality.

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2024, 01:03:00 PM »
@RWD, thank you for the work you put into listing all the "market is overpriced, get out now" threads over the past 11 years.  Around 70 of them?  Obviously, we are all glad we have been in the market for the past 11 years.  Great perspective. 

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2024, 01:39:20 PM »
@RWD, thank you for the work you put into listing all the "market is overpriced, get out now" threads over the past 11 years.  Around 70 of them?  Obviously, we are all glad we have been in the market for the past 11 years.  Great perspective.
I was curious when I started maintaining the list. Looks I first compiled it in 2019 and have just been adding on to it since then. I'm glad it has been helpful for people.

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2024, 10:08:18 AM »
Yes, the US large cap markets are objectively expensive.

If you are a value investor, or just want to reduce exposure to the risk of overvaluation, there are LOTS of other markets that are definitely NOT overpriced.

Compare the following markets with the S&P500's forward PE ratio, using data from Yardeni Research:

US large cap S&P500: 22
US mid cap S&P400: 16.4
US small cap S&P600: 16.3
Brazil: 7.9
South Korea: 8
France: 13.3
Italy: 9.9
UK: 11.4
Germany: 12.6
Spain: 10.3
Canada: 15.7
Indonesia: 11.7
Japan: 14.3
Mexico: 10.3
Emerging Markets: 11.9

There's nothing wrong with being a value investor and having concerns over frothy markets and three-figure PE valuations, meme stocks, and investors flinging their money at crypto. A lot of these ex-US countries are in a slump from higher interest rates, which are now falling again. If you want to buy a dip, it's waiting for you outside the United States, and accessible through ETFs like EEM, VWO, EWM, EWJ, EWY, EWZ, EWU, EWG, EIDO, and more. Even within the U.S. small and midcap stocks are still selling at valuations lower than their historical norms (see VB and VO, respectively).

With all these great options all around you, there's no excuse to hide in cash. Using valuation as a reason to reallocate from US large caps to smalls, mids, and ex-US is perfectly reasonable though, IMO.

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2024, 10:58:19 AM »
I'm struggling with feeling like the market is currently overpriced. I know it's not wise to try to time the market, but is it obvious right now? Or am I getting caught up in opinions, PE ratios, etc? I currently have a good sum of cash waiting to invest, and I'm not sure if I should keep waiting or if I should start investing again. I'm only 25 so I feel like I may need to just keep investing and not worry about it. Any advice?

I have two thoughts.

1.  You're 25.  You should hope the market is overpriced and crashes soon, then stays in a bear market for quite a while.  You have 6-7 decades of investing in front of you.  If you start off investing when the market is down, you can buy more shares for the same $$, so that when the market recovers, you will own many more shares that will grow with the recovery.  The worst scenario you can have is a bull market during your entire investing life, which then crashes when you're ready to retire and stays low for quite some time. 

2.  What are the world/national events that are creating this fear within you of a pending crash?  Name a couple of big uncertainties/fears that make you believe the market is overpriced and heading for disaster.  Now:  go listen to "We Didn't Start the Fire."  Imagine each of the world events listed as "feeling" just as important as the issues you have named.  Because I guarantee you, to the people who lived through them, they were.* 

Now go look at what the stock market did over that timeframe.  Yes, you will see many blips -- some a day or two, some months, some a few years.  But what happened then?  In each and every case, the market recovered and far exceeded its prior peak.

The reality is that all of us who are invested in the market are relying on it continuing a similar long-term trajectory -- maybe more, maybe less, but overall, going up.  Frankly, if that doesn't happen, it will be the result of major shifts in the global economy or political situations, in which case none of us will be FIREing anyway.  If you don't think the market will go up over the long term, you shouldn't be investing in it; go by rental properties, or start a business, or something else.  If you do think the market will go up over the long-term, then the money you are investing for that long-term should always be in the market, period.  And if your long-term money is going to be in the market, you want it there now -- because, duh, our entire premise is that buying the same number of shares will cost you more tomorrow (or next week/month/year) than they cost today.  Sure, there will be fluctuations, and you might guess wrong.  But the odds are pretty good that you're not going to luck into investing the very day before a giant market nosedive.  Play the averages.

Of course, if some of that money isn't long-term money -- if you may need it in the next 3-5 years -- then don't put all of it in the market.  The best way to guarantee you panic and cash out in a down market is to invest money that you need right then.  Make sure your short-term is covered, then invest the rest and ignore it for the next however many years.


*I'm probably pretty massively jaded here, but there's very little over the past few decades that has made as much of an impression on me as my teenage years waiting for the Soviets to nuke us all. 

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Re: Is the market overpriced?
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2024, 09:53:19 PM »
Yes, the US large cap markets are objectively expensive.

If you are a value investor, or just want to reduce exposure to the risk of overvaluation, there are LOTS of other markets that are definitely NOT overpriced.

Compare the following markets with the S&P500's forward PE ratio, using data from Yardeni Research:

US large cap S&P500: 22
US mid cap S&P400: 16.4
US small cap S&P600: 16.3
Brazil: 7.9
South Korea: 8
France: 13.3
Italy: 9.9
UK: 11.4
Germany: 12.6
Spain: 10.3
Canada: 15.7
Indonesia: 11.7
Japan: 14.3
Mexico: 10.3
Emerging Markets: 11.9

There's nothing wrong with being a value investor and having concerns over frothy markets and three-figure PE valuations, meme stocks, and investors flinging their money at crypto. A lot of these ex-US countries are in a slump from higher interest rates, which are now falling again. If you want to buy a dip, it's waiting for you outside the United States, and accessible through ETFs like EEM, VWO, EWM, EWJ, EWY, EWZ, EWU, EWG, EIDO, and more. Even within the U.S. small and midcap stocks are still selling at valuations lower than their historical norms (see VB and VO, respectively).

With all these great options all around you, there's no excuse to hide in cash. Using valuation as a reason to reallocate from US large caps to smalls, mids, and ex-US is perfectly reasonable though, IMO.


Well said.  One doesn’t even need to limit themselves to stocks.  You can currently make stock-like returns in REITS, pockets of high yield credit, preferred equity etc.  It makes so much sense to diversify right now that it kind of hurts. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!