Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 104003 times)

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #350 on: February 22, 2018, 01:31:12 PM »
That's what I'm saying.  The people that care about the right to own guns need to fix it.  The rest of us need to start pushing for a constitutional amendment.  They won't do anything as long as the status quo protects their right.  It's time to put that right under legitimate threat.  For too long the FEAR of someone coming to take their guns paralyzed them from action.  They need to be confronted by what it looks like when we actually come to take their guns.  It isn't going to be some sunglassed FBI agent, it's going to be the local soccer moms or the girl's cross country team.

PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #351 on: February 22, 2018, 01:52:48 PM »
Is there any method by which the public is able to insist or force a referendum to amend the Constitution or is it left entirely up to the the Politicians?


Peter Parker

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #352 on: February 22, 2018, 01:56:02 PM »
That's what I'm saying.  The people that care about the right to own guns need to fix it.  The rest of us need to start pushing for a constitutional amendment.  They won't do anything as long as the status quo protects their right.  It's time to put that right under legitimate threat.  For too long the FEAR of someone coming to take their guns paralyzed them from action.  They need to be confronted by what it looks like when we actually come to take their guns.  It isn't going to be some sunglassed FBI agent, it's going to be the local soccer moms or the girl's cross country team.

I'm all for a constitutional amendment at this point (although, I think if you take a linguistic approach to reading the ONE-SENTENCE 2nd Amendment it doesn't say what the NRA and some Supreme Court Justices thinks it says).

That being said, after 45 years, we still haven't ratified the Equal Rights Amendment--mostly being held up by Red Southern States.  If we can't get soccer mom's on board with that, I'm not sure there is hope.  We shall see if there is a repudiation during the next course of elections, but after hearing the morons gobble up the NRA propaganda at the CPAC meeting today, I'm not hopeful.

After Trump's comments of eliminating ICE funding for California (on top of his penalizing blue states with his tax law), I'd be happy to secede our state from the rest of the union, take our 6th largest economy in the world for ourselves, stop providing welfare for all of backward red states, and be done with it...But I'd be happy if Oregon and Washington joined us too.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 02:23:29 PM by Peter Parker »

Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #353 on: February 22, 2018, 02:14:26 PM »
https://www.local10.com/news/parkland-school-shooting/florida-house-votes-down-motion-to-take-up-weapons-ban-with-douglas-students-present

Florida House votes down motion to take up weapons ban with Douglas students present

A nearly party line vote (71-36) on the motion.

Don't forget that those FL kids protesting at the capital are actors! (sarcasm)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/02/20/aide-florida-lawmaker-outspoken-survivors-florida-shooting-crisis-actors/356960002/

That Trump was elected despite his mouth, that we've had another school shooting plus another already averted, and that the government requires more license and registration to have certain pets, ride scooters, and get married - than to buy guns and ammo - is mind boggling! The past couple of years has broken my reality.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #354 on: February 22, 2018, 02:23:12 PM »
https://www.local10.com/news/parkland-school-shooting/florida-house-votes-down-motion-to-take-up-weapons-ban-with-douglas-students-present

Florida House votes down motion to take up weapons ban with Douglas students present

A nearly party line vote (71-36) on the motion.

Don't forget that those FL kids protesting at the capital are actors! (sarcasm)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/02/20/aide-florida-lawmaker-outspoken-survivors-florida-shooting-crisis-actors/356960002/

That Trump was elected despite his mouth, that we've had another school shooting plus another already averted, and that the government requires more license and registration to have certain pets, ride scooters, and get married - than to buy guns and ammo - is mind boggling! The past couple of years has broken my reality.

Iíve been terminated from the State House. I made a mistake whereas I tried to inform a reporter of information relating to his story regarding a school shooting. This was not my responsibility. I meant no disrespect to the students or parents of Parkland.

ó Benjamin Kelly



Total non-apology and failure to accept personal responsibility.  What he should have said:


Iíve been terminated from the State House. I made a mistake when I tried to pass off my imagination as fact.  This was a stupid thing to do.  I am sorry for the disrespect I showed the students and parents of Parkland.

Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #355 on: February 22, 2018, 02:46:32 PM »
Is there any method by which the public is able to insist or force a referendum to amend the Constitution or is it left entirely up to the the Politicians?

You want to amend the Constitution but you don't understand the mechanisms within it?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 02:48:25 PM by Dr. Hasslein »

Midwest

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #356 on: February 22, 2018, 02:54:47 PM »
That's what I'm saying.  The people that care about the right to own guns need to fix it.  The rest of us need to start pushing for a constitutional amendment.  They won't do anything as long as the status quo protects their right.  It's time to put that right under legitimate threat.  For too long the FEAR of someone coming to take their guns paralyzed them from action.  They need to be confronted by what it looks like when we actually come to take their guns.  It isn't going to be some sunglassed FBI agent, it's going to be the local soccer moms or the girl's cross country team.

I'm all for a constitutional amendment at this point (although, I think if you take a linguistic approach to reading the ONE-SENTENCE 2nd Amendment it doesn't say what the NRA and some Supreme Court Justices thinks it says).

That being said, after 45 years, we still haven't ratified the Equal Rights Amendment--mostly being held up by Red Southern States.  If we can't get soccer mom's on board with that, I'm not sure there is hope.  We shall see if there is a repudiation during the next course of elections, but after hearing the morons gobble up the NRA propaganda at the CPAC meeting today, I'm not hopeful.

After Trump's comments of eliminating ICE funding for California (on top of his penalizing blue states with his tax law), I'd be happy to secede our state from the rest of the union, take our 6th largest economy in the world for ourselves, stop providing welfare for all of backward red states, and be done with it...But I'd be happy if Oregon and Washington joined us too.

1 - Trump's ICE comment was one of his more idiotic (and that's saying something).
2 - If California were to attempt to secede, why would you assume a) the agricultural areas (primarily republican) would go along with the secession?  b) Along those lines, doesn't most of California's water supply originate from those same areas and/or other states? 

Lastly, this secession talk is really a dangerous hypothetical regardless because the rest of the US won't allow California to leave.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #357 on: February 22, 2018, 02:56:39 PM »
Is there any method by which the public is able to insist or force a referendum to amend the Constitution or is it left entirely up to the the Politicians?

You want to amend the Constitution but you don't understand the mechanisms within it?

I don't see how those two things are contradictory, the question seems to be asking for a loophole or lesser known path to amendment.

But as far as I know it must be proposed by congress.

PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #358 on: February 22, 2018, 03:00:05 PM »
You want to amend the Constitution but you don't understand the mechanisms within it?
You want to answer a question with snark?

Well let me return the favour.......

Perhaps you missed or failed to comprehend my previous posts in which I stated I have no interest in whether or not the US decides to change its Constitution, nor even if it cares to change any of its laws.  Presently the US as a society has decided the carnage associated with its unique gun culture is acceptable.  I don't believe law changes will be effective until the US decides it is unwilling to accept that carnage.

You might also take note of how I phrased the above comment.

Care to answer the question now?  If not, feel free to ignore it rather than wasting your time by replying.

PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #359 on: February 22, 2018, 03:03:15 PM »
I don't see how those two things are contradictory, the question seems to be asking for a loophole or lesser known path to amendment.

But as far as I know it must be proposed by congress.
That being the case then it seems a bit disingenuous for posters to keep making comments along the lines of "you need to get people out to vote if you want the Constitution to change".

With congress bought and paid for by vested interests it isn't likely to propose giving the power to the people to change the Constitution even if a demonstrable majority wanted it changed.

Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #360 on: February 22, 2018, 03:09:49 PM »
I don't see how those two things are contradictory, the question seems to be asking for a loophole or lesser known path to amendment.

But as far as I know it must be proposed by congress.
That being the case then it seems a bit disingenuous for posters to keep making comments along the lines of "you need to get people out to vote if you want the Constitution to change".

With congress bought and paid for by vested interests it isn't likely to propose giving the power to the people to change the Constitution even if a demonstrable majority wanted it changed.

It's disingenuous to suggest that people of your persuasion need to put in some work and get voters out if you want to change the document that our country is founded on? OK

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #361 on: February 22, 2018, 05:12:43 PM »
I don't see how those two things are contradictory, the question seems to be asking for a loophole or lesser known path to amendment.

But as far as I know it must be proposed by congress.
That being the case then it seems a bit disingenuous for posters to keep making comments along the lines of "you need to get people out to vote if you want the Constitution to change".

With congress bought and paid for by vested interests it isn't likely to propose giving the power to the people to change the Constitution even if a demonstrable majority wanted it changed.

The people in congress are voted into their positions.  If you don't like how corrupt they are, then you need to stop voting the corrupt ones into power.  You do need to get people out to vote if you want the Constitution to change.

PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #362 on: February 22, 2018, 05:33:43 PM »
It's disingenuous to suggest that people of your persuasion need to put in some work and get voters out if you want to change the document that our country is founded on? OK
Did you fail to read again or fail to comprehend?

I do not have any interest in changing your Constitution.  Keep it the same, change it, use it to start a fire.  I don't care.  It's your country.

You do realise it is actually possible to be interested in a discussion and how things work without wanting to change it don't you?

Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #363 on: February 22, 2018, 05:40:36 PM »
It's disingenuous to suggest that people of your persuasion need to put in some work and get voters out if you want to change the document that our country is founded on? OK
Did you fail to read again or fail to comprehend?

I do not have any interest in changing your Constitution.  Keep it the same, change it, use it to start a fire.  I don't care.  It's your country.

You do realise it is actually possible to be interested in a discussion and how things work without wanting to change it don't you?

Uh in your post just up thread you specifically query how the Constitution could be changed. And why the heck are you talking about our congress if you (presumably) aren't an American?

PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #364 on: February 22, 2018, 05:44:55 PM »
The people in congress are voted into their positions.  If you don't like how corrupt they are, then you need to stop voting the corrupt ones into power.  You do need to get people out to vote if you want the Constitution to change.
I'm not suggesting anyone in congress is corrupt.  Corruption is illegal and I have no knowledge of any illegal acts having taken place.  However, the piper must be paid.  The representatives know that they have little chance of being elected again if the piper isn't paid in the appropriate manner.  And the piper who is owed the most gets paid first.  The vested interests ensure that they pay much more than the mere constituents who elect the representatives.

That's why both sides of politics have not made any attempt to change the 2nd amendment.  That's why I asked if there was a way the public could force the politicians to allow a vote on the actual question rather than wait to see if Congress will allow such a thing to happen.

And before Dr Hasslein fails to comprehend this post let me reassure him/her that I don't actually care if your Constitution is changed or not.

PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #365 on: February 22, 2018, 05:54:09 PM »
Uh in your post just up thread you specifically query how the Constitution could be changed. And why the heck are you talking about our congress if you (presumably) aren't an American?
Yes I queried how your Constitution can be changed.  Are you suggesting that the only reason someone might enquire about something is because they want to change that something?  Here's one alternative possible reason.  Someone might be interested in verifying the claim of another person.

As for talking about your congress if I'm not American, are you suggesting the only people in the world who might have an interest in talking about your congress are Americans?  If the only things you have any interest in discussing are American things, might I suggest you broaden your view.  Try taking an interest in the world outside your borders, there are lots of interesting things you might find you would enjoy discussing that are not American.   Perhaps then you might come to understand that others might also enjoy discussing something that is American even if they are not American themselves.

Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #366 on: February 22, 2018, 06:10:33 PM »
Uh in your post just up thread you specifically query how the Constitution could be changed. And why the heck are you talking about our congress if you (presumably) aren't an American?
Yes I queried how your Constitution can be changed.  Are you suggesting that the only reason someone might enquire about something is because they want to change that something?  Here's one alternative possible reason.  Someone might be interested in verifying the claim of another person.

As for talking about your congress if I'm not American, are you suggesting the only people in the world who might have an interest in talking about your congress are Americans?  If the only things you have any interest in discussing are American things, might I suggest you broaden your view.  Try taking an interest in the world outside your borders, there are lots of interesting things you might find you would enjoy discussing that are not American.   Perhaps then you might come to understand that others might also enjoy discussing something that is American even if they are not American themselves.

Whack whack! There's the sound of you knocking down a strawman. I am knowledgeable about politics in several other countries, yet I don't presume to make comments to people from those countries about their nations' internal affairs.

Go ahead and tell me what country you are a citizen of and I'd be happy to analyze a political facet of it that I disagree with.



PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #367 on: February 22, 2018, 06:51:11 PM »
Whack whack! There's the sound of you knocking down a strawman. I am knowledgeable about politics in several other countries, yet I don't presume to make comments to people from those countries about their nations' internal affairs.
Who's making the strawman?

So you never discuss the politics of other countries with people from those countries?  Really?  And yet you think you are knowledgeable about the politics of those countries?  That's a good one.

If, as I suspect, by your comment of "presume to make comments......" you actually mean "presume to tell people from other countries how they should run their country....." then I ask you to link to any comment I have made which presumes to tell Americans how they should run their country.  I'll wait.
Quote from: Dr Hasslein
Go ahead and tell me what country you are a citizen of and I'd be happy to analyze a political facet of it that I disagree with.
Well that would suggest I give a hoot about your analysis of any political facet of my country.

Why don't you just admit that you didn't bother to read or comprehend my previous posts so you had some context before you spouted off about something that upset you because you incorrectly assumed something not actually true?  Wouldn't that be easier?

No longer lurking

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #368 on: February 23, 2018, 07:47:52 AM »
Hello, I have been reading the forums for a while but had to make an account to ask a question in this discussion. A little back story first, I am a gun owner. All the guns I own are hunting rifles, so most of the posters suggestions on stricter controls I am for. I also lost a family member in the Vegas mass shooting and it has changed my opinion considerably on them. I would gladly give up all my guns if it meant the amount of people getting murdered by them would lower significantly.
This may be to off topic for this thread, however is anyone familiar with the Black Panther movement? Do you think the progress they made was helped by their insistence to arm themselves or do you think it is what led to their demise?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 07:49:52 AM by No longer lurking »

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #369 on: February 23, 2018, 08:07:04 AM »
This may be to off topic for this thread, however is anyone familiar with the Black Panther movement? Do you think the progress they made was helped by their insistence to arm themselves or do you think it is what led to their demise?

I kinda think it was both.

The BPP came about because of the very evident racism and murders of black people by police.  It was a reaction to socially accepted abuses of police power.  Long term however, it's hard to advocate for peace when you're aggressively violent in your approach.  When you get any group of people who are armed and ready to use those arms, it's only a matter of time before mistakes happen.  The moment that you go from victim to aggressor, you lose legitimacy in your struggle.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #370 on: February 23, 2018, 08:29:48 AM »
Is there any method by which the public is able to insist or force a referendum to amend the Constitution or is it left entirely up to the the Politicians?

There are a couple of ways actually!

From the constitution itself!

Thank you for the question:

Article V of the U.S. constitution:

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall
deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution,
or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two
thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing
Amendments, which in either Case, shall be valid to
all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when
ratifi ed by the Legislatures of three-fourths of the several
States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the
one or the other Mode of Ratifi cation may be proposed by
the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be
made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and
eight shall in any Manner affect the fi rst and fourth Clauses
in the Ninth Section of the fi rst Article; and that no State,
without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage
in the Senate.

So you can accomplish it via state legislatures or a constitutional convention.  The reason the convention hasn't ever been used is that there would be little to no control over what happened at that convention.  That would likely end up being a "total overhaul" situation, and isn't ideal.  But a single state legislature could put forward an amendment and get 3/4 of the rest of the states to ratify it and then it'd be law.  And there doesn't have to be a sunset provision to that, some amendments took a really long time to get in.

There are some that would argue that Congress has to propose the amendment, but don't worry.  If the Supreme Court won't enforce an amendment because the process we used ignored "Congress shall propose" then we'll have good precedent for enforcing that "well regulated militia" bit.

The NRA has state legislatures locked up pretty tightly too, but I think we can do it.

Figure:  3/4 is 38 states:

For (maybe with some effort) (18)
Hawaii, California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Colorado, Ohio, Michigan, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Delaware, Vermont

Maybe (with alot of effort) (15)
Maine, New Hampshire, Iowa, Indiana, Idaho, Nebraska, Kansas, New Mexico, Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Utah, Wisconsin, Wyoming

Probably better spent efforts elsewhere (16):

Texas, Florida, Missouri, Montana, Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kentucky, Louisiana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia, Mississippi, West Virginia

Once we get the first 18, the next 15 will be easier, and then it's just enough peer pressure to flip five of the hardest holdouts, maybe compromise to leave veterans with the right or something, and that'll be that.

So unless gun rights activists manage to stop armed rampage killings we're going to amend the constitution with something like:

The language in Amendment 2 is hereby clarified:  The right to keep and bear arms refers to the right to possess and wield artificial limbs or strap live bears to your arms.  Congress shall pass regulations limiting possession of firearms to peace officers and active duty military personnel, due to the inability of the militia to self-regulate.

Rightflyer

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #371 on: February 23, 2018, 08:44:37 AM »
Is there any method by which the public is able to insist or force a referendum to amend the Constitution or is it left entirely up to the the Politicians?

There are a couple of ways actually!

From the constitution itself!

Thank you for the question:

Article V of the U.S. constitution:

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall
deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution,
or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two
thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing
Amendments, which in either Case, shall be valid to
all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when
ratifi ed by the Legislatures of three-fourths of the several
States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the
one or the other Mode of Ratifi cation may be proposed by
the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be
made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and
eight shall in any Manner affect the fi rst and fourth Clauses
in the Ninth Section of the fi rst Article; and that no State,
without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage
in the Senate.

So you can accomplish it via state legislatures or a constitutional convention.  The reason the convention hasn't ever been used is that there would be little to no control over what happened at that convention.  That would likely end up being a "total overhaul" situation, and isn't ideal.  But a single state legislature could put forward an amendment and get 3/4 of the rest of the states to ratify it and then it'd be law.  And there doesn't have to be a sunset provision to that, some amendments took a really long time to get in.

There are some that would argue that Congress has to propose the amendment, but don't worry.  If the Supreme Court won't enforce an amendment because the process we used ignored "Congress shall propose" then we'll have good precedent for enforcing that "well regulated militia" bit.

The NRA has state legislatures locked up pretty tightly too, but I think we can do it.

Figure:  3/4 is 38 states:

For (maybe with some effort) (18)
Hawaii, California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Colorado, Ohio, Michigan, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Delaware, Vermont

Maybe (with alot of effort) (15)
Maine, New Hampshire, Iowa, Indiana, Idaho, Nebraska, Kansas, New Mexico, Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Utah, Wisconsin, Wyoming

Probably better spent efforts elsewhere (16):

Texas, Florida, Missouri, Montana, Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Kentucky, Louisiana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Tennessee, Virginia, Mississippi, West Virginia

Once we get the first 18, the next 15 will be easier, and then it's just enough peer pressure to flip five of the hardest holdouts, maybe compromise to leave veterans with the right or something, and that'll be that.

So unless gun rights activists manage to stop armed rampage killings we're going to amend the constitution with something like:

The language in Amendment 2 is hereby clarified:  The right to keep and bear arms refers to the right to possess and wield artificial limbs or strap live bears to your arms.  Congress shall pass regulations limiting possession of firearms to peace officers and active duty military personnel, due to the inability of the militia to self-regulate.

Sorry, I can't see that working... should read:

The right to keep and bear arms refers to the right to possess and wield artificial limbs or strap live bear's arms to your arms.

Seriously, kudos to you for, first, doing the research, second for providing a thumbnail analysis of the state legislature standings and lastly for having the balls to make a truly revolutionary proposal to solve the problem.

You've raised my hope for the future.
Thanks 

KTG

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #372 on: February 23, 2018, 08:45:14 AM »
Looks like the resource officer assigned to Parkland didn't go in an confront the shooter.

I guess I can sort of see it in a way that he wasn't sure what was going on, and called in for backup. I am sure many, and partially myself, that he should have gone right in and shot it out with the shooter. I don't know the training he got and what he should have done. I know he resigned and the sheriff isn't happy. He was out-gunned though.

It just doesn't look good when a PE teacher dies in a hail of bullets protecting students while an armed cop sits outside and doesn't do a whole lot. And if a cop can't do a whole lot, what the hell do we expect teachers to do.

I highly doubt arming teachers is the way to go. There are all sorts of issues with self-defense too. I can just see a teacher, untrained and who really doesn't want to shoot anyone, shooting a active shooter in a way that might seem unwarranted (maybe at the moment the shooter was not threatening anyone), and then the teacher being arrested or locked up. Laugh if you want, but I have seen similar if not worse. And god forbid if during the firefight, the teacher accidentally hits a student.

Better yet, wait till a teacher who is having a bad day goes postal in a school, and we'll see the debate then.

I don't think there is a solution. America loves its guns. We can take turns passing the buck on who is responsible (gun sellers who aren't psychologists, not arming teachers, not loosening gun restrictions, not making gun ownership more restrictive, not enough cops, too many mentally ill people with guns, Trump (even though plenty of shootings happened under Obama too, etc etc), but the reality is, as bad as these shootings are, nothing will change. Congress will not change. For god's sake a congressman was shot and they still didn't have a debate. What do they care about kids who aren't in their districts?

So all this is pointless.

Rightflyer

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #373 on: February 23, 2018, 08:55:08 AM »
Looks like the resource officer assigned to Parkland didn't go in an confront the shooter.

I guess I can sort of see it in a way that he wasn't sure what was going on, and called in for backup. I am sure many, and partially myself, that he should have gone right in and shot it out with the shooter. I don't know the training he got and what he should have done. I know he resigned and the sheriff isn't happy. He was out-gunned though.

It just doesn't look good when a PE teacher dies in a hail of bullets protecting students while an armed cop sits outside and doesn't do a whole lot. And if a cop can't do a whole lot, what the hell do we expect teachers to do.

I highly doubt arming teachers is the way to go. There are all sorts of issues with self-defense too. I can just see a teacher, untrained and who really doesn't want to shoot anyone, shooting a active shooter in a way that might seem unwarranted (maybe at the moment the shooter was not threatening anyone), and then the teacher being arrested or locked up. Laugh if you want, but I have seen similar if not worse. And god forbid if during the firefight, the teacher accidentally hits a student.

Better yet, wait till a teacher who is having a bad day goes postal in a school, and we'll see the debate then.

I don't think there is a solution. America loves its guns. We can take turns passing the buck on who is responsible (gun sellers who aren't psychologists, not arming teachers, not loosening gun restrictions, not making gun ownership more restrictive, not enough cops, too many mentally ill people with guns, Trump (even though plenty of shootings happened under Obama too, etc etc), but the reality is, as bad as these shootings are, nothing will change. Congress will not change. For god's sake a congressman was shot and they still didn't have a debate. What do they care about kids who aren't in their districts?

So all this is pointless.

I wonder if the people who suggest arming teachers ever stop to really reflect on what they are saying.

Turning a place of learning, meant for children, into an armed fortress.

The complete and utter madness of it all is bewildering.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #374 on: February 23, 2018, 09:04:14 AM »
Looks like the resource officer assigned to Parkland didn't go in an confront the shooter.

I guess I can sort of see it in a way that he wasn't sure what was going on, and called in for backup. I am sure many, and partially myself, that he should have gone right in and shot it out with the shooter. I don't know the training he got and what he should have done. I know he resigned and the sheriff isn't happy. He was out-gunned though.

It just doesn't look good when a PE teacher dies in a hail of bullets protecting students while an armed cop sits outside and doesn't do a whole lot. And if a cop can't do a whole lot, what the hell do we expect teachers to do.

I highly doubt arming teachers is the way to go. There are all sorts of issues with self-defense too. I can just see a teacher, untrained and who really doesn't want to shoot anyone, shooting a active shooter in a way that might seem unwarranted (maybe at the moment the shooter was not threatening anyone), and then the teacher being arrested or locked up. Laugh if you want, but I have seen similar if not worse. And god forbid if during the firefight, the teacher accidentally hits a student.

Better yet, wait till a teacher who is having a bad day goes postal in a school, and we'll see the debate then.

I don't think there is a solution. America loves its guns. We can take turns passing the buck on who is responsible (gun sellers who aren't psychologists, not arming teachers, not loosening gun restrictions, not making gun ownership more restrictive, not enough cops, too many mentally ill people with guns, Trump (even though plenty of shootings happened under Obama too, etc etc), but the reality is, as bad as these shootings are, nothing will change. Congress will not change. For god's sake a congressman was shot and they still didn't have a debate. What do they care about kids who aren't in their districts?

So all this is pointless.

FWIW, I participated in a shooting simulation at a large university a few years back. Three or four different LE agencies participated (2 University departments, Hospital, City, County). The protocol was for officers to enter the building as quickly as possible, mostly sidearms, maybe rifles if they have time to grab them from the car, standard uniforms, no heavy armor.

It's a little bit different than this scenario, because there are a lot more officers on duty in the general area, and they used teams of three or four to clear the building. But the tactics were very proactive. It's a lot more dangerous for the officers than waiting for SWAT, but the idea is to end the situation as quickly as possible, because that's the only way you're going to limit casualties and secure the scene for medics.

KTG

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #375 on: February 23, 2018, 09:04:52 AM »
I don't mind allowing teachers to arm themselves, I really don't. But doing so for the purpose of protecting the school? Wow. I think more qualified personal would be in order.

But there is a reason people shoot at people in churches, schools, movie theaters, and not police stations and army bases. Its because they know they wont last long attacking a police station or army base, and they want to inflict as many casualties as possible. So they go where there are less defenses. I do not have children, but I have nephews. I can't imagine in this day and age any parent who wishfully thinks that their schools are safer without some kind of ARMED protection, in our society. Any parent who says, "guns do not belong in our schools" doesn't seem to grasp we live in America during these times. They are, dangerous times. We do need to be prepared. If you think its justifiable to have a weapon for home protection, I image its not hard to justify protecting children at schools.

Maybe some day there will be a change in society and stricter gun controls and therefore less shootings in schools, but until that day comes, schools need to be protected in a way they tells potential attackers that it is not worth their effort to go there.

Until that happens, get used to these shootings.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #376 on: February 23, 2018, 09:07:16 AM »

But there is a reason people shoot at people in churches, schools, movie theaters, and not police stations and army bases. Its because they know they wont last long attacking a police station or army base, and they want to inflict as many casualties as possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #377 on: February 23, 2018, 09:12:02 AM »
Yes, I am aware this happened, and this was more of a terrorist attack. I am sure there are shootings at police stations too.  Just not to the degree that school shootings happen.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #378 on: February 23, 2018, 09:36:00 AM »
I don't mind allowing teachers to arm themselves, I really don't. But doing so for the purpose of protecting the school? Wow. I think more qualified personal would be in order.

But there is a reason people shoot at people in churches, schools, movie theaters, and not police stations and army bases.

This is a valid point.  People are allowed to carry firearms in churches and movie theaters.  This hasn't prevented shootings from occurring in these locations.  The protective benefit of allowing teachers to arm themselves may well be far less than some people suspect.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #379 on: February 23, 2018, 09:45:48 AM »
Looking back at the teachers I had in Middle and High School, very few of them stick out in my mind as capable of doing a shootout with an active shooter.

I don't know what schools you guys went to, but most of my teachers were elderly and female. A few coaches I can remember may have been able to fill the role pretty well, but that's it.

Teachers become teachers to teach. There is a personality trait that typically goes a lot with that. They do not sign up to be teachers to 'protect and server' or defend the country.

I am sure there are a few bad ass teachers in any country that would do an exceptional job with whatever means necessary, but the idea of arming them to solve these problems is ONLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF PASSING THE BUCK.

We would need a greater police presence to protect schools, but they cost money. The counties can barely pay for school materials and teacher's salaries, so wonder where the extra cash is going to come from.

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Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #381 on: February 23, 2018, 10:05:29 AM »
Looking back at the teachers I had in Middle and High School, very few of them stick out in my mind as capable of doing a shootout with an active shooter.

I don't know what schools you guys went to, but most of my teachers were elderly and female. A few coaches I can remember may have been able to fill the role pretty well, but that's it.

Teachers become teachers to teach. There is a personality trait that typically goes a lot with that. They do not sign up to be teachers to 'protect and server' or defend the country.

I am sure there are a few bad ass teachers in any country that would do an exceptional job with whatever means necessary, but the idea of arming them to solve these problems is ONLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF PASSING THE BUCK.

We would need a greater police presence to protect schools, but they cost money. The counties can barely pay for school materials and teacher's salaries, so wonder where the extra cash is going to come from.

Exactly.

And selling more guns, of course.

Imagine the cost of arming, say, 20% of teachers.

The Washington post tried to estimate this, and came up with the estimate of 3.6 million teachers in public and private schools.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/02/22/the-economics-of-arming-americas-schools/?utm_term=.b74a9467350c

20% of that is 718,000.

We would essentially be adding 50 percent to the size of the military by mandating that nearly three-quarters of a million people be trained and prepared to take up arms to defend civilians.

What kind of training would they receive? The bare minimum? They estimate about $100 per person for that.

That's $71.8 million.

A more robust training -- with 26 hours of training over 3 days, would be about $1000.

That more robust training means that the cost for our 718,000 teachers spikes to $718 million.

Then there's the cost of the guns.


This would be additional money we'd need find and spend in an environment where we have some schools that can't afford to meet five days a week. Some schools that don't require a degree in teaching to teach because they pay teachers so little. None of this would go to teaching students.

The president says teachers should get "a little bit of a bonus." A true bonus would be any amount above the actual cost. Or is he saying is that we'd expect teachers to cover the cost of this training on their own? So this might be a "tax" on teachers instead of people that are paying teachers.

That's not a bonus. That's grossly underpaying teachers. Again.

How many of you can look back on your teachers and think of at least one or two who had some... let's put this kindly... anger issues? Or who seemed unduly stressed out by teaching, and didn't like the job? Or who just plain don't seem like good candidates for this?

Do you REALLY think that a school that gets a mandate passed down to them to arm 20% of their teachers is going to look very closely at who they arm? Because frankly, a good number of these people will NOT volunteer to do it.

It's quite likely that at least some of the volunteers are people who should not be carrying a handgun around your kid.

It's also likely that such a shift in culture would cause a fair number of teachers to quit. And a fair number of people contemplating a teaching career to abandon the idea.

These might very well be just the kinds of teachers your kids need. The ones who would make EXCELLENT teachers, and who would do anything for your kids, but who do not want to teach in this new culture.

Which leaves... who? Well, if Trump gets his wish, we'll see, I guess.

But I'm not very confident that who it leaves are the best teachers.




Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #382 on: February 23, 2018, 10:08:33 AM »
If this problem continues parents will begin forming homeschooling efforts. Or parents will ask for permission to patrol the hallways while classes are in session - not necessarily armed - but with radios or cellphones to call in problems.

My children both attend schools that have large glass panels at ground level. Even if the building is locked up, a determined shooter will easily enter the building by smashing their way in.

I can imagine groups of volunteer parents taking turns watching the school just like we did guard duty in the military.

Even then shooters could change tactics and do horrendous things during dismissal.

Gun access limits, mental health improvements and cultural change. None of it will give immediate results. I still think our nation is rotting and needs to be stabilized. Extreme political division isn't helping either. Neither is social media. Nor 24-hour news. Nor our fascination with celebrity.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #383 on: February 23, 2018, 10:17:21 AM »
I suspect the primary benefit of arming teachers would come from the possibility that someone might shoot back deterring would be shooters. As many have already pointed out there are issues with a teacher who has limited training carrying and even more so firing a gun. The ideal situation in my mind would be one where no one knows which teachers may have a gun and very few if any actually do.

But then even this could have negative impacts for some students who are distracted or scared of the fact that their teachers may have a gun. I don't think this would have bothered me as a student but I can imagine those who have no experience with guns would be more fearful of them.

Regarding the idea of giving raises or bonuses to teachers who are armed, I think that's about the worst part of the plan. Giving the option on a completely voluntary basis would likely attract very few teachers but they would be teachers who already have some training/experience and the desire to actually be the hero if the time came. If we get teacher's to do it for money you will get more people who are just, well, doing it for the money.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #384 on: February 23, 2018, 10:30:56 AM »
I suspect the primary benefit of arming teachers would come from the possibility that someone might shoot back deterring would be shooters. As many have already pointed out there are issues with a teacher who has limited training carrying and even more so firing a gun. The ideal situation in my mind would be one where no one knows which teachers may have a gun and very few if any actually do.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is exactly the same scenario that you have with churches, movie theaters, and other public places, right?  Is there any evidence that this has reduced the number of mass shootings in those locations?


But then even this could have negative impacts for some students who are distracted or scared of the fact that their teachers may have a gun. I don't think this would have bothered me as a student but I can imagine those who have no experience with guns would be more fearful of them.

Accidents with guns are rare, but they do happen.  School shootings are rare, but they do happen.  The negative impact of increasing the number of gun accidents in schools by allowing teachers to carry firearms may well outweigh any benefit that comes from having them.




Another unproven assumption we keep making is that a teacher with a gun will be a hero, stopping the bad guy.  Is it not just as likely that a teacher with a gun, semi-trained, under stress, with adrenaline running through his/her veins misses the shot and ends up simply adding to the casualties?

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #385 on: February 23, 2018, 10:43:35 AM »
Can't afford books, bus service, basic supplies and/or athletics. But here are your guns. Sheer lunacy!

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #386 on: February 23, 2018, 10:44:27 AM »

Another unproven assumption we keep making is that a teacher with a gun will be a hero, stopping the bad guy.  Is it not just as likely that a teacher with a gun, semi-trained, under stress, with adrenaline running through his/her veins misses the shot and ends up simply adding to the casualties?

I would say it's not anywhere near as likely.  The more likely scenario would be that they do nothing but hunker up in their class room with their kids, which would still be a major improvement if the shooter tried to get into their class room. 

They may not be very effective, but just taking a couple of pot shots at the shooter would slow down most shooters, which would be a big deal by itself. 

It's been a while, but there was a Pearl, Mississippi shooting in the late ninieties where a teacher ran to his car to get his gun, came back and stopped the shooting not by killing the shooter, but just by the shooter no longer advancing.  Eventually the police arrived and I think the shooter actually surrendered and stood trial.  I suspect some shooters would force the issue rather than letting themselves be pinned down by the threat of fire, but even then it's probably be 50/50 whether the teacher or the shooter prevails (or maybe better because I imagine both would end up injured in a lot of situations). 

Can't remember when the Gun Free Schools act or whatever was passed, but I think if it was in effect, the Pearl Mississippi teacher was actually committing a crime by having his gun in his car. 

ETA:  I'm still not sure the number of school shootings really justify teachers going through the trouble to carry on a regular basis, but it seems like some of the least destructive policies being considered.  It seems like it would be a shame if we started paying for an armed guard or more at every school for such an extremely low risk, but it also seems somewhat horrifying to just say, it's an extremely low risk, so we're just going to leave kids defenseless against shooters, even if that might be the rational approach based on a cost benefit analysis. 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 10:48:06 AM by Jrr85 »

partgypsy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #387 on: February 23, 2018, 10:58:54 AM »
But you know, all the extra guns could come in handy in case a grizzly bear attacks the school. It's totally worth the extra cost. I love how the NRA, no matter what the problem is, MORE guns is the solution. Teachers, student, police Mds: we want to ban military grade assault weapons so this can't happen again.  NO, you are being silly. Say a student comes in with his god given right for an AR 15, you can have a shoot out with the teachers and their handguns. Teachers and students: We don't WANT that, that's a stupid idea and wouldn't solve the problem! NRA: those silly teachers and students. Just because they had to live through a massacre they act like they know what they are talking about. Or they are crisis actors. Something.


NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #388 on: February 23, 2018, 11:04:34 AM »
But you know, all the extra guns could come in handy in case a grizzly bear attacks the school. It's totally worth the extra cost. I love how the NRA, no matter what the problem is, MORE guns is the solution.

When all you have is a hammer ...

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #389 on: February 23, 2018, 11:06:37 AM »
There's a very relevant article from Scientific America that discusses what information we do have regarding the efficacy of arming people for safety:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/


But you know, all the extra guns could come in handy in case a grizzly bear attacks the school. It's totally worth the extra cost. I love how the NRA, no matter what the problem is, MORE guns is the solution.

When all you have is a hammer ...

Then you clearly need a gun!

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #390 on: February 23, 2018, 11:29:41 AM »
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/23/17043216/florida-shooting-nra-teachers-guns

There is only one solution - fewer guns and more difficult access to guns.  It is true around the world - if you want less gun deaths, have fewer guns.

Bringing up insane ideas like arming teachers (gee, who stands to profit from arming hundreds of thousands of teachers?  the gun manufacturers backing the NRA) or mental health (We don't have a monopoly on mental health problems but we do have a monopoly on owning a shit load of guns) is all a distraction.  There's a finite window of time where the public cares about gun laws and gun control - about 2 to 3 weeks.

The NRA and Trump are throwing out everything they possibly can - arm teachers, mental health, more guns are needed, blame the media, blame George Soros, etc. etc. - because they want to muddy up the discussion, create a lot of noise, and it works every time.  We haven't passed a single piece of gun legislation since Sandy Hook.  The NRA and the right are good at what they do.  They prey on fear (you need good guys with guns to kill the bad guys.  the liberal government wants to take away the 2nd amendment).  This is all a distraction to get anything meaningful done.  Then, they wait for the public to lose interest and to move on to the next news item.

Don't fall for it.  If you want gun deaths to be reduced in this country, we need fewer guns and stricter gun laws.  Period.

Peter Parker

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #391 on: February 23, 2018, 12:03:52 PM »
How about we tax the shit out of guns and ammo to help offset costs for the training and arming of our schools, the metal detectors, the redesign of the buildings, the security personnel, the medical professionals, and on and on...
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 12:20:27 PM by Peter Parker »

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #392 on: February 23, 2018, 12:09:01 PM »
I suspect the primary benefit of arming teachers would come from the possibility that someone might shoot back deterring would be shooters. As many have already pointed out there are issues with a teacher who has limited training carrying and even more so firing a gun. The ideal situation in my mind would be one where no one knows which teachers may have a gun and very few if any actually do.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is exactly the same scenario that you have with churches, movie theaters, and other public places, right?  Is there any evidence that this has reduced the number of mass shootings in those locations?

More or less, ya. Movie theaters in particular are vulnerable due to setting (dark) and even though people can carry in church it is less likely that they will than on a day to day basis.

Either way I agree that there is little evidence of benefit but would also point out that statistical evidence would be extremely difficult to come by due to lack of data points and a control. It's really just speculation on either side and if that's the best we've got I'm sure there are people whose speculation is worth more than my own.

To be clear, I'm not in favor of arming teachers but I try to keep an open mind. I think the best solution would be stricter gun control.

meghan88

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #393 on: February 23, 2018, 12:38:30 PM »
A non-Mustachian solution as described by Chris Rock:  raise the price of bullets to $5,000 each.  If only ...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017481478

Peter Parker

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #394 on: February 23, 2018, 12:48:26 PM »
A non-Mustachian solution as described by Chris Rock:  raise the price of bullets to $5,000 each.  If only ...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/1017481478

That's a good one....and, honestly, I think it is part of the solution.  Tax the crap out of guns and ammo!

px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #395 on: February 23, 2018, 01:27:18 PM »

But there is a reason people shoot at people in churches, schools, movie theaters, and not police stations and army bases. Its because they know they wont last long attacking a police station or army base, and they want to inflict as many casualties as possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

You do realize that military members can't carry guns, right? Using the military base was probably not a good example, as these are heavily controlled restricted firearm zones. All of that particular muslim terrorist's targets were forced to be unarmed, even though they could carry a gun at work.

The military has shifted its views (slightly) on firearm possession.

Israeli schools have armed guards and the staff is armed. Jewish schools seem to do the same in the US too.

What should be learned is that gun free zones are soft targets. These are targeted by terrorists and the crazy. The criminals do not care if they violate the gun free zone law. It does not make the area any safer, as it only disarms those that want to comply with the laws.

TheOldestYoungMan

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Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #397 on: February 23, 2018, 01:53:05 PM »

Another unproven assumption we keep making is that a teacher with a gun will be a hero, stopping the bad guy.  Is it not just as likely that a teacher with a gun, semi-trained, under stress, with adrenaline running through his/her veins misses the shot and ends up simply adding to the casualties?

I would say it's not anywhere near as likely.  The more likely scenario would be that they do nothing but hunker up in their class room with their kids, which would still be a major improvement if the shooter tried to get into their class room. 

They may not be very effective, but just taking a couple of pot shots at the shooter would slow down most shooters, which would be a big deal by itself. 

It's been a while, but there was a Pearl, Mississippi shooting in the late ninieties where a teacher ran to his car to get his gun, came back and stopped the shooting not by killing the shooter, but just by the shooter no longer advancing.  Eventually the police arrived and I think the shooter actually surrendered and stood trial.  I suspect some shooters would force the issue rather than letting themselves be pinned down by the threat of fire, but even then it's probably be 50/50 whether the teacher or the shooter prevails (or maybe better because I imagine both would end up injured in a lot of situations). 

Can't remember when the Gun Free Schools act or whatever was passed, but I think if it was in effect, the Pearl Mississippi teacher was actually committing a crime by having his gun in his car. 

ETA:  I'm still not sure the number of school shootings really justify teachers going through the trouble to carry on a regular basis, but it seems like some of the least destructive policies being considered.  It seems like it would be a shame if we started paying for an armed guard or more at every school for such an extremely low risk, but it also seems somewhat horrifying to just say, it's an extremely low risk, so we're just going to leave kids defenseless against shooters, even if that might be the rational approach based on a cost benefit analysis.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/us/school-shootings-teachers.html

That principal is against arming teachers.

Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #398 on: February 23, 2018, 01:58:22 PM »
https://www.vox.com/2018/2/23/17044318/nra-membership-partners-cut-ties

Its about time. Brands flee celebrities and politicians after mere poorly chosen words or affairs. 

Its taken how many mass shootings for these companies to bail on the NRA?

Peter Parker

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #399 on: February 23, 2018, 02:04:55 PM »
https://www.vox.com/2018/2/23/17044318/nra-membership-partners-cut-ties

Its about time. Brands flee celebrities and politicians after mere poorly chosen words or affairs. 

Its taken how many mass shootings for these companies to bail on the NRA?

It takes a short amount of time to tweet your thanks to these companies....It takes guts to stand up to the NRA.  (I'd say ask a politician, but I haven't found one yet that had ties to the NRA and has yet to stand up to them)