Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 59422 times)

Rightflyer

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #300 on: February 21, 2018, 02:25:10 PM »
^^ This.
This is why you are a part of the problem and not the solution.

"If no one will talk about the solution that I prefer, then I am taking my ball and going home" [stomps off]

B' bye

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #301 on: February 21, 2018, 02:33:53 PM »
^^ This.
This is why you are a part of the problem and not the solution.

"If no one will talk about the solution that I prefer, then I am taking my ball and going home" [stomps off]

B' bye

Also relevant:

Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
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  • Age: 36
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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #302 on: February 21, 2018, 02:47:31 PM »
Quote
Some states are already doing it with no issue.  Part of the difficulty here really is that mass school shootings are (thankfully!) so rare that it's really hard to apply statistics in a meaningful way, in order to draw conclusions.  Accidental shooting deaths are a also very small number, around 500 per year, and appear to be declining. As concerns teachers carrying concealed, training and proper equipment will solve that issue anyway.

There have been 241 accidental shootings this year and we're not even out of the second month (http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/).  Of course, that doesn't count the large numbers that are not reported, which I think you were mentioning earlier:


Per your link:  46 accidental shooting deaths this year.  Not 241.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/accidental-shooting

Keep it honest.

I appreciate that you've decided to start checking references.  You can rest assured that my comment was honest.

The 241 number is listed as the number of confirmed 'unintentional shootings' from the main page of the website.  It's the last number given in the box on the left.  (Try ctrl-f and then type "unintentional" and you'll see it.)  This is a combination of people injured by accident and killed by accident.  You appear to only be counting the dead.

I don't know about you, but I'd prefer that my child neither die nor be shot because an idiot with a gun in the classroom made a mistake.

Except you bolded his statement regarding shooting deaths being around 500 per year and subsequently listed your number of "241 accidental shootings this year and we're not even out of the second month" in direct contradiction with the numbers he posted.

If the conversation isn't going to be honest, why bother.


Unless somebody starts wanting to have a useful conversation about potential solutions that don't include confiscation of 70%+ of the lawful guns in this country, I'm out.

We were discussing the idea of arming teachers.  zolotiyeruki mentioned that he thought there weren't many accidental gun deaths each year.  I mentioned in response that there were a lot of accidents involving guns already this year.  At this point you jumped in and accused me of being dishonest.  So I took the time to show you where the number I quoted came from and explained why you were seeing a different number (you were looking at different data).  Then you accused the website that I was getting information from of being dishonest.  I showed you their methodology.  Now you're accusing me of being dishonest again because you didn't bother to read the exchange you started commenting on.

This is all coming after you posted #268 in this thread - a collection of outright fabricated quotations, and quotes taken out of context presented as fact by you.

I am glad that you've decided that telling the truth is important to you.  I haven't been lying though.  Zolotiyeruki and I weren't even discussing confiscating guns, we were discussing the merits of arming teachers.

TheOldestYoungMan

  • Pencil Stache
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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #303 on: February 21, 2018, 03:30:09 PM »
Umm . . . if you read a bit further on in the link you posted:

Quote
It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under Subsection (a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or the person having legal custody of the minor had given written permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale, the parent or person having legal custody had given effective consent.

I suspect that what happened was the guy's mom told the gun store it was cool - which then means there's no barrier to selling (or giving) a minor a gun.

Still not "easier than spray paint".

Move past the straw man.  Get on to real solutions.

Sorry, it wasn't in Texas, my apologies.  I'm in Texas now but I wasn't twenty years ago.

Regardless, I'll put down my straw man about the spray paint.  Clearly there IS no store with a more restrictive policy regarding the sale of spray paint than firearms.  No store ever recognized there was a potential harm in selling spray paint to minors and enacted, on their own, independent of congressional action, a set of rules designed to limit the distribution to potentially irresponsible consumers.  That never happened, you are correct.  It is a straw man fallacy to suggest that a retailer of a product could decide not to sell it to a particular non-protected group without needing the federal or state government to forbid them from selling it.  That would almost be like personal responsibility.  That would almost be like a local solution.  No reason to bring it up here at all.  I apologize.

Unfortunately, I don't really understand your statement regarding background checks.

I suppose there's someone out there that believes the minimal requirement for a background check that was so effective it allowed an asshole with known mental issues who had made violent threats legally purchase a weapon he'd use to slaughter little girls and teachers...

Someone who believes that check requirement's failure is evidence that no such check could work?  Is that what you were saying?  Or someone who's saying that check does work and there will be those who slip through the cracks?

I don't really follow what you were saying.

Do you get what I'm saying?  If gun advocates have a solution that will stop this from happening lets hear it?  Because where I'm at, I've heard the whinging for decades about how it can't be stopped without trampling the rights of legal owners and I'm sorta like...fuck it...lets change the constitution and trample those rights.  I no longer give a shit about your rights, you've had twenty years to fix this at least and near as I can tell you've done fuck all, so, yea, lets take all your guns away.  All I hear whenever the subject comes up is what's wrong with everyone else's ideas.  Nothing is not an acceptable path forward.

I'm prepared to let the gun rights activists lead us to progress, that's cool.  I don't understand guns?  Sure, fuck it, lets go with that.  You fix it then.  But if it doesn't work we're taking away your guns.  Clock is ticking.
Notice is turned in! 35 days until FIRE!  I am excited and at the same time terrified!
Don't burn your bridges folks. 4 days prior to the date lost my home and rental property to Hurricane Harvey.  Still workin' Never quittin'

Peter Parker

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #304 on: February 21, 2018, 03:43:18 PM »
Lot's of people have talked about the influence of the NRA.  This gives you an idea of their reach.  And if you think (like I do) that money isn't given without something expected in return, then maybe you'll feel better giving a few people a call and tell them what you think.  I've been feeling GREAT all day...



NAME                          NRA FUNDING*                 PHONE NUMBER
 
ALABAMA
REP. ROBERT ADERHOLT      $49,928           (202) 225-4876
REP. MO BROOKS                  $5,000             (202) 225-4801
REP. BRADLEY BYRNE           $8,237             (202) 225-4931
REP. GARY PALMER              $5,000             (202) 225-4921
REP. MARTHA ROBY              $6,000             (202) 225-2901
REP. MIKE ROGERS               $33,079           (202) 225-3261
SEN. RICHARD SHELBY         $259,464         (202) 224-5744
 
ALASKA
REP. DON YOUNG                  $246,285         (202) 225-5765
SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI         $141,536         (202) 224-6665
SEN. DAN SULLIVAN              $565                (202) 224-3004
 
ARIZONA
REP. ANDY BIGGS                  $2,000             (202) 225-2635
REP. PAUL GOSAR                 $12,591           (202) 225-2315
REP. MARTHA MCSALLY        $68,234           (202) 225-2542
REP. DAVID SCHWEIKERT     77,687             (202) 225-2190
SEN. JEFF FLAKE                   $365,302         (202) 224-4521
 
ARKANSAS
REP. RICK CRAWFORD          $8,977             (202) 225-4076
REP. FRENCH HILL                 $543,612         (202) 225-2506
REP. BRUCE WESTERMAN     $9,504             (202) 225-3772
REP. STEVE WOMACK           $9,500             (202) 225-4301
SEN. JOHN BOOZMAN            $82,352           (202) 224-4843
SEN. TOM COTTON                $1,968,714       (202) 224-2353
 
CALIFORNIA
REP. KEN CALVERT               $61,125           (202) 225-1986
REP. PAUL COOK                   $8,000             (202) 225-5861
REP. JEFF DENHAM               $46,861           (202) 225-4540
REP. DUNCAN HUNTER         $13,000           (202) 225-5672
REP. DARRELL ISSA               $37,636           (202) 225-3906
REP. STEVE KNIGHT              $13,487           (202) 225-1956
REP. DOUG LAMALFA            $9,590             (202) 225-3076
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY         $33,940           (202) 225-2915
REP. TOM MCCLINTOCK        $52,842           (202) 225-2511
REP. DEVIN NUNES                $23,030           (202) 225-2523
REP. DANA ROHRABACHER   $34,817           (202) 225-2415
REP. ED ROYCE                     $38,800           (202) 225-4111
REP. DAVID VALADAO           $51,428           (202) 225-4695
REP. MIMI WALTERS              $4,000             (202) 225-5611
 
COLORADO
REP. KENNETH BUCK            $800,544         (202) 225-4676
REP. MIKE COFFMAN             $112,054         (202) 225-7882
REP. DOUGLAS LAMBORN     $32,560           (202) 225-4422
REP. SCOTT TIPTON              $105,214         (202) 225-4761
SEN. CORY GARDNER           $1,231,079       (202) 224-5941
 
FLORIDA
REP. GUS BILIRAKIS              $16,450           (202) 225-5755
REP. VERNON BUCHANAN     $19,940           (202) 225-5015
REP. RON DESANTIS              $5,000             (202) 225-2706
REP. MARIO DIAZ-BALART     $32,002           (202) 225-4211
REP. NEAL DUNN                   $5,199             (202) 225-5235
REP. MATT GAETZ                 $1,000             (202) 225-4136
REP. BRIAN MAST                  $32,519           (202) 225-3026
REP. BILL POSEY                   $15,936           (202) 225-3671
REP. TOM ROONEY                $10,500           (202) 225-5792
REP. DENNIS ROSS                19,375             (202) 225-1252
REP. JOHN RUTHERFORD     $1,000             (202) 225-2501
REP. DANIEL WEBSTER         $37,788           (202) 225-1002
REP. TED YOHO                     $4,092             (202) 225-5744
SEN. MARCO RUBIO               $1,012,980       (202) 224-3041
 
 
GEORGIA
REP. RICHARD ALLEN            $4,000             (202) 225-2823
REP. SANFORD BISHOP         $49,496           (202) 225-3631
REP. BUDDY CARTER            $4,352            (202) 225-5831
REP. DOUG COLLINS             $11,140           (202) 225-9893
REP. DREW FERGUSON         $3,000             (202) 225-5901
REP. TOM GRAVES                $13,650           (202) 225-5211
REP. KAREN HANDEL             $24,997           (202) 225-4501
REP. JODY HICE                     $4,000             (202) 225-4101
REP. BARRY LOUDERMILK    $5,000             (202) 225-2931
REP. AUSTIN SCOTT              $7,500             (202) 225-6531
REP. ROB WOODALL              $2,000             (202) 225-4272
SEN. JOHNNY ISAKSON         $130,809         (202) 224-3643
SEN. DAVID PERDUE              $355,854         (202) 224-3521
 
IDAHO
REP. RAUL LABRADOR          $14,813           (202) 225-6611
REP. MIKE SIMPSON              $385,731         (202) 225-5531
SEN. MIKE CRAPO                  $59,989           (202) 224-6142
SEN. JAMES RISCH                 $18,850           (202) 224-2752
 
ILLINOIS
REP. MIKE BOST                    $8,760             (202) 225-5661
REP. RODNEY DAVIS             $45,269           (202) 225-2371
REP. RANDY HULTGREN        $16,254           (202) 225-2976
REP. ADAM KINZINGER          $6,030             (202) 225-3635
REP. DARIN LAHOOD             $17,990           (202) 225-6201
REP. JOHN SHIMKUS             $59,304           (202) 225-5271
 
INDIANA
REP. JIM BANKS                     $2,000             (202) 225-4436
REP. SUSAN BROOKS            $3,000             (202) 225-2276
REP. LARRY BUCSHON          $11,379           (202) 225-4636
REP. TREY HOLLINGSWORTH $4,865 (202) 225-5315
REP. LUKE MESSER               $8,000             (202) 225-3021
REP. TODD ROKITA                $7,000             (202) 225-5037
REP. JACKIE WALORSKI        $20,572           (202) 225-3915
SEN. TODD YOUNG                $450,095         (202) 224-5623
 
 
 
IOWA
REP. ROD BLUM                     $45,279           (202) 225-2911
REP. STEVEN KING                $63,404           (202) 225-4426
REP. DAVID YOUNG               $384,121         (202) 225-5476
SEN. JONI ERNST                   $331,984         (202) 224-3254
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY        $235,907         (202) 224-3744
 
KANSAS
REP. RON ESTES                   $6,979             (202) 225-6216
REP. LYNN JENKINS               $8,000             (202) 225-6601
REP. ROGER MARSHALL       $3,500             (202) 225-2715
REP. KEVIN YODER                $52,938           (202) 225-2865
SEN. JERRY MORAN              $34,149           (202) 224-6521
SEN. PAT ROBERTS               $707,084         (202) 224-4774
 
KENTUCKY
REP. ANDY BARR                   $11,274           (202) 225-4706
REP. JAMES COMER              $11,192           (202) 225-3115
REP. BRETT GUTHRIE            $10,500           (202) 225-3501
REP. THOMAS MASSIE           $2,000             (202) 225-3465
REP. HAL ROGERS                 $60,429           (202) 225-4601
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL      $820,375         (202) 224-2541
SEN. RAND PAUL                   $104,456         (202) 224-4343
 
LOUISIANA
REP. RALPH ABRAHAM          $4,974             (202) 225-8490
REP. GARRET GRAVES          $5,900             202) 225-3901
REP. CLAY HIGGINS               $3,500             (202) 225-2031
REP. MIKE JOHNSON             $7,223             (202) 225-2777
REP. STEVE SCALISE             $36,250           (202) 225-3015
SEN. BILL CASSIDY                $419,651         (202) 224-5824
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY            $215,788         (202) 224-4623
 
MAINE
REP. BRUCE POLIQUIN          $135,636         (202) 225-6306
 
MARYLAND
REP. ANDY HARRIS                $25,447           (202) 225-5311
 
MICHIGAN
REP. JUSTIN AMASH              $1,000             (202) 225-3831
REP. JOHN BERGMAN            $6,450             (202) 225-4735
REP. MIKE BISHOP                 $10,082           (202) 225-4872
REP. BILL HUIZENGA              $11,650           (202) 225-4401
REP. PAUL MITCHELL            $3,000             (202) 225-2106
REP. JOHN MOOLENAAR       $10,554           (202) 225-3561
REP. DAVE TROTT                 $5,435             (202) 225-8171
REP. FRED UPTON                 $12,106           (202) 225-3761
REP. TIM WALBERG               $96,138           (202) 225-6276
 
MINNESOTA
REP. TOM EMMER                  $3,000             (202) 225-2331
REP. JASON LEWIS                $7,619             (202) 225-2271
REP. ERIK PAULSEN              $31,613           (202) 225-2871
REP. COLLIN PETERSON       $46,759           (202) 225-2165
 
MISSISSIPPI
REP. GREGG HARPER           $8,150             (202) 225-5031
REP. TRENT KELLY                $2,000             (202) 225-4306
REP. STEVEN PALAZZO         $7,250             (202) 225-5772
SEN. THAD COCHRAN            $65,833           (202) 224-5054
SEN. ROGER WICKER            $89,406           (202) 224-6253
 
MISSOURI
REP. SAM GRAVES                $97,394           (202) 225-7041
REP. VICKY HARTZLER          $10,359           (202) 225-2876
REP. BILLY LONG                   $10,500           (202) 225-6536
REP. BLAINE LUETKEMEYER $39,375           (202) 225-2956
REP. JASON SMITH                $6,500             (202) 225-4404
REP. ANN WAGNER                $8,187             (202) 225-1621
SEN. ROY BLUNT                   $1,488,706       (202) 224-5721
 
MONTANA
REP. GREG GIANFORTE        $73,009           (202) 225-3211
SEN. STEVE DAINES              $85,432           (202) 224-2651
 
NEBRASKA
REP. DONALD JOHN BACON   $18,328           (202) 225-4155
REP. JEFF FORTENBERRY     $21,628           (202) 225-4806
REP. ADRIAN SMITH               $16,800           (202) 225-6435
SEN. DEB FISCHER                $14,309           (202) 224-6551
SEN. BEN SASSE                    $68,623           (202) 224-4224
 
NEVADA
REP. MARK AMODEI               $18,640           (202) 225-6155
SEN. DEAN HELLER               $65,022           (202) 224-6244
 
NEW JERSEY
REP. FRANK LOBIONDO         $1,536             (202) 225-6572
REP. THOMAS MACARTHUR   $7,280             (202) 225-4765
 
NEW MEXICO
REP. STEVE PEARCE             $88,314           (202) 225-2365
 
NEW YORK
REP. CHRIS COLLINS             $5,000             (202) 225-5265
REP. JOHN FASO                   $44,939           (202) 225-5614
REP. JOHN KATKO                 $46,001           (202) 225-3701
REP. TOM REED                     $22,162           (202) 225-3161
REP. ELISE STEFANIK            $7,179             (202) 225-4611
REP. CLAUDIA TENNEY          $46,529           (202) 225-3665
REP. LEE ZELDIN                   $56,281           (202) 225-3826
 
NORTH CAROLINA
REP. TED BUDD                     $4,000             (202) 225-4531
REP. VIRGINIA FOXX              $22,078           (202) 225-2071
REP. GEORGE HOLDING        $8,797             (202) 225-3032
REP. RICHARD HUDSON        $18,926           (202) 225-3715
REP. WALTER JONES JR.       $56,655           (202) 225-3415
REP. PATRICK MCHENRY      $43,070           (202) 225-2576
REP. MARK MEADOWS          $4,150             (202) 225-6401
REP. ROBERT PITTENGER     $12,113           (202) 225-1976
REP. DAVID ROUZER             $2,427             (202) 225-2731
REP. MARK WALKER              $3,000             (202) 225-3065
SEN. RICHARD BURR             $1,399,698       (202) 224-3154
SEN. THOM TILLIS                  $1,971,554       (202) 224-6342
 
NORTH DAKOTA
REP. KEVIN CRAMER             $12,711           (202) 225-2611
SEN. JOHN HOEVEN              $21,050           (202) 224-2551
 
OHIO
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REP. BOB GIBBS                    $10,442           (202) 225-6265
REP. BILL JOHNSON              $58,985           (202) 225-5705
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REP. ROGER WILLIAMS         $6,500             (202) 225-9896
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REP. CHRIS STEWART           $8,000             (202) 225-9730
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SEN. MIKE LEE                       $8,291             (202) 224-5444
 
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REP. TOM GARRETT              $7,174             (202) 225-4711
REP. BOB GOODLATTE          $136,424         (202) 225-5431
REP. MORGAN GRIFFITH       $11,352           (202) 225-3861
REP. SCOTT TAYLOR             $5,290             (202) 225-4215
REP. ROB WITTMAN               $25,221           (202) 225-4261
 
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REP. JAIME HERRERA BEUTLER $95,298      (202) 225-3536
REP. DAN NEWHOUSE           $4,000             (202) 225-5816
REP. DAVE REICHERT             $18,436          (202) 225-7761
REP. CATHY MCMORRIS RODGERS $26,766 (202) 225-2006
 
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REP. DAVID MCKINLEY          $10,500           (202) 225-4172
REP. ALEX MOONEY              $15,016           (202) 225-2711
SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO $112,992      (202) 224-6472
 
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REP. SEAN DUFFY                 $54,514           (202) 225-3365
REP. MIKE GALLAGHER         $40,262           (202) 225-5665
REP. GLENN GROTHMAN       $4,000             (202) 225-2476
REP. RON KIND                      $10,550           (202) 225-5506
REP. PAUL RYAN                    $61,401           (202) 225-3031
REP. JAMES SENSENBRENNER JR. $20,468   (202) 225-5101
SEN. RON JOHNSON              $1,015,173       (202) 224-5323
 
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REP. LIZ CHENEY                   $1,000            (202) 225-2311
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SEN. MIKE ENZI                      $24,722            (202) 22

Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #305 on: February 21, 2018, 04:02:44 PM »
I don't understand why it's considered unreasonable to have a gun registry. We register cars. Hell, I can't even buy psuedophedrine anymore without being logged into a system to make sure I'm not buying too much of it. I was barred from buying one box of adult Sudafed and one bottle of children's once in VA when we were all miserably sick from a cold because that was just too much to buy at one time (the only time that YEAR I'd tried to buy it, mind you). Yet, deadly weapon? No registry, no limits. This seems entirely unreasonable to me on so many levels.

Neither cars nor Sudafed are specifically called out in the Constitution.  And you don't have to register a car unless you want to drive it on taxpayer funded roads... no clear nexus to gun registration there.

Wexler

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #306 on: February 21, 2018, 04:57:58 PM »
I don't understand why it's considered unreasonable to have a gun registry. We register cars. Hell, I can't even buy psuedophedrine anymore without being logged into a system to make sure I'm not buying too much of it. I was barred from buying one box of adult Sudafed and one bottle of children's once in VA when we were all miserably sick from a cold because that was just too much to buy at one time (the only time that YEAR I'd tried to buy it, mind you). Yet, deadly weapon? No registry, no limits. This seems entirely unreasonable to me on so many levels.

Neither cars nor Sudafed are specifically called out in the Constitution.  And you don't have to register a car unless you want to drive it on taxpayer funded roads... no clear nexus to gun registration there.

But you have to register to exercise your constitutional right to vote.

shenlong55

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #307 on: February 21, 2018, 07:32:07 PM »
Do you get what I'm saying?  If gun advocates have a solution that will stop this from happening lets hear it?  Because where I'm at, I've heard the whinging for decades about how it can't be stopped without trampling the rights of legal owners and I'm sorta like...fuck it...lets change the constitution and trample those rights.  I no longer give a shit about your rights, you've had twenty years to fix this at least and near as I can tell you've done fuck all, so, yea, lets take all your guns away.  All I hear whenever the subject comes up is what's wrong with everyone else's ideas.  Nothing is not an acceptable path forward.

I'm prepared to let the gun rights activists lead us to progress, that's cool.  I don't understand guns?  Sure, fuck it, lets go with that.  You fix it then.  But if it doesn't work we're taking away your guns.  Clock is ticking.

Yeah, pretty much this.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #308 on: February 21, 2018, 08:37:33 PM »
I don't understand why it's considered unreasonable to have a gun registry. We register cars. Hell, I can't even buy psuedophedrine anymore without being logged into a system to make sure I'm not buying too much of it. I was barred from buying one box of adult Sudafed and one bottle of children's once in VA when we were all miserably sick from a cold because that was just too much to buy at one time (the only time that YEAR I'd tried to buy it, mind you). Yet, deadly weapon? No registry, no limits. This seems entirely unreasonable to me on so many levels.

Neither cars nor Sudafed are specifically called out in the Constitution.  And you don't have to register a car unless you want to drive it on taxpayer funded roads... no clear nexus to gun registration there.

Okay, this wins for dumbest argument against any kind of gun law I've heard yet. Nowhere in the 2nd amendment does it proclaim all guns should be available for all with no registry period. It actually says something about militias. I don't see any of you forming militias. Pretty sure that Supreme Court decision also said that while the right to have a gun is protected, it does not mean without limits.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #309 on: February 21, 2018, 08:44:59 PM »
Do you get what I'm saying?  If gun advocates have a solution that will stop this from happening lets hear it?  Because where I'm at, I've heard the whinging for decades about how it can't be stopped without trampling the rights of legal owners and I'm sorta like...fuck it...lets change the constitution and trample those rights.  I no longer give a shit about your rights, you've had twenty years to fix this at least and near as I can tell you've done fuck all, so, yea, lets take all your guns away.  All I hear whenever the subject comes up is what's wrong with everyone else's ideas.  Nothing is not an acceptable path forward.

I'm prepared to let the gun rights activists lead us to progress, that's cool.  I don't understand guns?  Sure, fuck it, lets go with that.  You fix it then.  But if it doesn't work we're taking away your guns.  Clock is ticking.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Yes, yes, yes!!! I've never been against guns, and we've even come close to buying one. My husband is military and well trained. We ultimately decided that with young kids in the house, it was too risky for now. I'm at the point, though, that I'm so sick of hearing "nothing works, so let's not try at all so my life isn't impacted (fuck yours and everyone else)" that I am totally down with a ban at this point. Don't care in the least. So you guys need to move your asses and change SOMETHING if you care about your arsenals.

Wexler

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #310 on: February 21, 2018, 10:26:43 PM »
None of our enthusiastic gun supporters has any thoughts on why we can't have a national gun registry if it's OK to keep a registry of voters?

Has there been any chatter about the Florida gag law (NRA-supported) banning doctors from asking about guns that was in effect until very recently? I know that if I were a Florida voter, I'd be pretty interested to know which of my representatives voted to ban doctors, like the ones treating the shooter, from asking about guns in the home. 

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2011/155/Vote/HouseVote_h0155c2292.PDF

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2011/155/Vote/SenateVote_h0155c2004.PDF

SharkStomper

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #311 on: February 22, 2018, 06:20:49 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #312 on: February 22, 2018, 06:36:40 AM »
Maybe we need to add an Amendment extending due process rules to non-government entities. Thus you would have a Constitutional right to due process before being deprived of your life by anyone, not just government. Yes, I realize homicide is generally illegal, but it's not in the Constitution. Once human life and guns are on equal Constitutional footing, then we can have a debate about rules.

/sortofsarcasticbutnotreally
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PoutineLover

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #313 on: February 22, 2018, 07:14:02 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?
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Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #314 on: February 22, 2018, 07:56:29 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Exactly.

I read this in the Post this morning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/22/why-i-will-never-carry-a-gun-in-my-classroom/?utm_term=.22e1daed5745
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #315 on: February 22, 2018, 08:12:01 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.

I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.

I tried to lay it out in the comment you quoted, but obviously didn't do a good job.  Let me try to break it down again.  Basically, we have three variables:
Kms = Kids currently killed/hurt in mass shootings
Ka = Kids killed/hurt in increased firearms accidents at school after arming teachers
Kpat = Kids prevented from being killed/hurt by arming teachers


The assumptions being made when advocating for guns in the classroom:
Kms > Ka: There are more kids killed/injured in mass shootings than would be killed/injured by introducing guns into the classroom
Kpat > 0 : Arming teachers will actually reduce the number of kids killed/injured in mass shootings
Kms - Kpat < Ka : The number of deaths/injuries prevented by arming teachers will outweigh the number of deaths/injuries introduced by arming teachers.

We know that:
Ka > 0 : Currently teachers are not allowed to have guns, so there is no chance for gun accidents to happen.  In the general population, gun accidents do happen (although not at high percentages).  It is reasonable to infer that gun accidents will happen at a non-zero rate after introducing guns into the classroom.


Nobody has given evidence beyond a gut feeling that any of advocacy assumptions are true.  We can reasonably infer that gun accidents will happen because people make mistakes.  Therefore implementing this plan carries greater risk than many of the other ideas being discussed (that do not include an increased threat to children).

There are additionally a number of other potential issues to consider:
- Will young black children be shot more often by teachers with guns in the same way that black men are shot more often by police?
- Will carrying in the class disproportionately negatively impact those who live in poor neighbourhoods . . . even though school shootings happen across income ranges?
- Will the climate of increasing weaponization in classroom setting actually instigate increased school shootings?
- Will enough teachers choose to carry to make a difference anyway?


For the record, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea  . . . but I would prefer at least to have data showing that there is value in the suggestion before risking kids lives.

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #316 on: February 22, 2018, 08:15:02 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Exactly.

I read this in the Post this morning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/22/why-i-will-never-carry-a-gun-in-my-classroom/?utm_term=.22e1daed5745

That article is a crock of shit and the author comes off as hysterical (in the literal sense).  I know people have used a lot of short hand and you can probalby find somebody on the internet arguing for anything and everything, but nobody is trying to draft teachers into the security guard or law enforcement professions.

Some people just think it would make schools slightly less appealing as soft targets if potential school shooters had to at least consider the fact that teachers and/or administrators might be carrying.   

I really doubt more than a very small minority of teachers would want to carry.  I certainly wouldn't.  I don't carry now, even though it would be much less stressful for me to carry than a teacher and even though I probably should at least occasionally, because I'm just too lazy to deal with the hassle for such a remote risk. 

But I do think teachers should be allowed to carry, if they want to and if they have gone through some required training.  People carry all over the place now with very few incidents.  Very few teachers would take advantage of it and it's somewhat ridiculous to prohibit them from carrying while also not providing adequate security. 

SharkStomper

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #317 on: February 22, 2018, 08:21:52 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Your opinion is noted.  I'm not sure what you base it on since there seems to be little in the way of available data or statistics. 

We have allowed pilots to be armed since 2001 and as far as I can tell there's only been 1 reported AD.  Unfortunately, there are no statistics on this either since the numbers of armed pilots is classified by the government.

SharkStomper

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #318 on: February 22, 2018, 08:32:19 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.

I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.

I tried to lay it out in the comment you quoted, but obviously didn't do a good job.  Let me try to break it down again.  Basically, we have three variables:
Kms = Kids currently killed/hurt in mass shootings
Ka = Kids killed/hurt in increased firearms accidents at school after arming teachers
Kpat = Kids prevented from being killed/hurt by arming teachers


The assumptions being made when advocating for guns in the classroom:
Kms > Ka: There are more kids killed/injured in mass shootings than would be killed/injured by introducing guns into the classroom
Kpat > 0 : Arming teachers will actually reduce the number of kids killed/injured in mass shootings
Kms - Kpat < Ka : The number of deaths/injuries prevented by arming teachers will outweigh the number of deaths/injuries introduced by arming teachers.

We know that:
Ka > 0 : Currently teachers are not allowed to have guns, so there is no chance for gun accidents to happen.  In the general population, gun accidents do happen (although not at high percentages).  It is reasonable to infer that gun accidents will happen at a non-zero rate after introducing guns into the classroom.


Nobody has given evidence beyond a gut feeling that any of advocacy assumptions are true.  We can reasonably infer that gun accidents will happen because people make mistakes.  Therefore implementing this plan carries greater risk than many of the other ideas being discussed (that do not include an increased threat to children).

There are additionally a number of other potential issues to consider:
- Will young black children be shot more often by teachers with guns in the same way that black men are shot more often by police?
- Will carrying in the class disproportionately negatively impact those who live in poor neighbourhoods . . . even though school shootings happen across income ranges?
- Will the climate of increasing weaponization in classroom setting actually instigate increased school shootings?
- Will enough teachers choose to carry to make a difference anyway?


For the record, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea  . . . but I would prefer at least to have data showing that there is value in the suggestion before risking kids lives.

That seems like a reasonable position.  The question to me seems to be are we prepared to accept an occasional (unknown number) of AD's in exchange for a possible (unknown number) of reduced mass killings.

I submit that as a society we (The US) already have accepted the risk/reward of citizens carrying to defend themselves.  The only question is do we continue that protection to schools.



PoutineLover

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #319 on: February 22, 2018, 08:43:22 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Your opinion is noted.  I'm not sure what you base it on since there seems to be little in the way of available data or statistics. 

We have allowed pilots to be armed since 2001 and as far as I can tell there's only been 1 reported AD.  Unfortunately, there are no statistics on this either since the numbers of armed pilots is classified by the government.
I base it on the fact that I was a student in school, and the thought of my teachers carrying guns in the classroom is horrifying. I will have kids one day, and I don't want them to go to schools where their teachers have hidden guns just in case some monster comes in spraying bullets everywhere. I also want to prevent that monster from getting his hands on those weapons of mass destruction.
I'm so grateful for the fact that I live in Canada where this kind of insanity is much more rare, but I feel for the millions of parents who live in fear of their children being shot down in a place that should be safe. Why is it that an 18 year old can't buy a legal drink but they can buy a legal gun? Why is it that someone who has been reported dozens of times for violence and threats can buy a gun? Why can someone who has been accused or convicted of domestic violence can legally possess a gun? Why is anyone opposed to limiting access to guns to people who have clear patterns of abusive and violent behaviour? It's not my country, so I can't do anything about it, but I just fail to comprehend the mindset that seems to prevail among unconditional supporters of the second amendment.
I'm not opposed to safe gun ownership, but to me that means something more like the system we have in Canada. You have to take a class, you have to pass a background check, and you have to store guns safely, locked up away from the bullets (as far as I understand, there might be slight details I'm missing). Guns are for target shooting and hunting, and must be handled like the dangerous weapons they are.
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Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #320 on: February 22, 2018, 08:45:29 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Exactly.

I read this in the Post this morning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/22/why-i-will-never-carry-a-gun-in-my-classroom/?utm_term=.22e1daed5745

That article is a crock of shit and the author comes off as hysterical (in the literal sense).  I know people have used a lot of short hand and you can probalby find somebody on the internet arguing for anything and everything, but nobody is trying to draft teachers into the security guard or law enforcement professions.

Some people just think it would make schools slightly less appealing as soft targets if potential school shooters had to at least consider the fact that teachers and/or administrators might be carrying.   

I really doubt more than a very small minority of teachers would want to carry.  I certainly wouldn't.  I don't carry now, even though it would be much less stressful for me to carry than a teacher and even though I probably should at least occasionally, because I'm just too lazy to deal with the hassle for such a remote risk. 

But I do think teachers should be allowed to carry, if they want to and if they have gone through some required training.  People carry all over the place now with very few incidents.  Very few teachers would take advantage of it and it's somewhat ridiculous to prohibit them from carrying while also not providing adequate security.

Ah, “hysterical.” That age-old dog-whistle word.

Can you please explain the literal definition of hysteria, and then cite where the author (female, of course) exhibits that behavior?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 08:48:25 AM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #321 on: February 22, 2018, 08:47:56 AM »
Some people just think it would make schools slightly less appealing as soft targets if potential school shooters had to at least consider the fact that teachers and/or administrators might be carrying.   

I really doubt more than a very small minority of teachers would want to carry.  I certainly wouldn't.  I don't carry now, even though it would be much less stressful for me to carry than a teacher and even though I probably should at least occasionally, because I'm just too lazy to deal with the hassle for such a remote risk. 

But I do think teachers should be allowed to carry, if they want to and if they have gone through some required training.  People carry all over the place now with very few incidents.  Very few teachers would take advantage of it and it's somewhat ridiculous to prohibit them from carrying while also not providing adequate security.

We've kind of let the assertion that schools are "soft targets" fly by without any further examination.

I think it's a little bit misleading in the sense that people who attack schools do not do so because it's easier than other options (typical building access protocols make it harder). It ignores the fact that the attackers often have a kind of connection to the school, and target it for psychosocial reasons rather than being gun-free zones. School shootings are unlike like the Aurora, CO or Las Vegas attacks, where the attacker was seeking out places where it would be easy to cause a high number of casualties. Also worth noting that in both of those attacks, concealed carry holders failed to neutralize the attacker. Police officials often criticize proposals like this because they don't want to walk into a firefight not knowing who's trying to defend themselves or others, and who's trying to kill lots of innocent people.

We can debate whether additional barriers to school shootings would shift the attacks to other venues (malls, movies theaters, concerts, etc.). I don't really know one way or the other. I think that would be equally bad, and perhaps worse from a casualty standpoint because of weaker responses for random strangers in a place where they don't spend half their time. At least at school, the victims are familiar with their surroundings, and most schools drill for the situation.
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SharkStomper

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #322 on: February 22, 2018, 09:01:26 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.



I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Your opinion is noted.  I'm not sure what you base it on since there seems to be little in the way of available data or statistics. 

We have allowed pilots to be armed since 2001 and as far as I can tell there's only been 1 reported AD.  Unfortunately, there are no statistics on this either since the numbers of armed pilots is classified by the government.
I base it on the fact that I was a student in school, and the thought of my teachers carrying guns in the classroom is horrifying. I will have kids one day, and I don't want them to go to schools where their teachers have hidden guns just in case some monster comes in spraying bullets everywhere. I also want to prevent that monster from getting his hands on those weapons of mass destruction.
I'm so grateful for the fact that I live in Canada where this kind of insanity is much more rare, but I feel for the millions of parents who live in fear of their children being shot down in a place that should be safe. Why is it that an 18 year old can't buy a legal drink but they can buy a legal gun? Why is it that someone who has been reported dozens of times for violence and threats can buy a gun? Why can someone who has been accused or convicted of domestic violence can legally possess a gun? Why is anyone opposed to limiting access to guns to people who have clear patterns of abusive and violent behaviour? It's not my country, so I can't do anything about it, but I just fail to comprehend the mindset that seems to prevail among unconditional supporters of the second amendment.
I'm not opposed to safe gun ownership, but to me that means something more like the system we have in Canada. You have to take a class, you have to pass a background check, and you have to store guns safely, locked up away from the bullets (as far as I understand, there might be slight details I'm missing). Guns are for target shooting and hunting, and must be handled like the dangerous weapons they are.

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but can we please put the fallacy regarding domestic violence one to bed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban

It's illegal for a person convicted of domestic violence or in some cases merely under a restraining order to purchase or possess a firearm.

People with patterns of abusive and violent behavior should not have access to guns.  I'm not sure what that's referring to unless it's a continuation of the fallacy that people convicted of domestic violence can legally purchase or possess firearms.  Maybe you're referring to the FBI in this case that was criminally negligent (IMO) of failing to investigate the shooter, in that we would be in agreement.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #323 on: February 22, 2018, 09:02:37 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Exactly.

I read this in the Post this morning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/22/why-i-will-never-carry-a-gun-in-my-classroom/?utm_term=.22e1daed5745

That article is a crock of shit and the author comes off as hysterical (in the literal sense).  I know people have used a lot of short hand and you can probalby find somebody on the internet arguing for anything and everything, but nobody is trying to draft teachers into the security guard or law enforcement professions.

Some people just think it would make schools slightly less appealing as soft targets if potential school shooters had to at least consider the fact that teachers and/or administrators might be carrying.   

I really doubt more than a very small minority of teachers would want to carry.  I certainly wouldn't.  I don't carry now, even though it would be much less stressful for me to carry than a teacher and even though I probably should at least occasionally, because I'm just too lazy to deal with the hassle for such a remote risk. 

But I do think teachers should be allowed to carry, if they want to and if they have gone through some required training.  People carry all over the place now with very few incidents.  Very few teachers would take advantage of it and it's somewhat ridiculous to prohibit them from carrying while also not providing adequate security.
I don't entirely agree with the article but there's nothing hysterical about the author's point of view or tone. She speaks with the assumption that teacher's would be required or encouraged to carry while some people are only suggesting it as an option but if that's what she is arguing against I think she made her point clearly.

I actually expected more emotion and imagery when I clicked on the article because of your description and the fact that articles like that do exist, but this was not one of them.

PoutineLover

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #324 on: February 22, 2018, 09:09:44 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.



I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Your opinion is noted.  I'm not sure what you base it on since there seems to be little in the way of available data or statistics. 

We have allowed pilots to be armed since 2001 and as far as I can tell there's only been 1 reported AD.  Unfortunately, there are no statistics on this either since the numbers of armed pilots is classified by the government.
I base it on the fact that I was a student in school, and the thought of my teachers carrying guns in the classroom is horrifying. I will have kids one day, and I don't want them to go to schools where their teachers have hidden guns just in case some monster comes in spraying bullets everywhere. I also want to prevent that monster from getting his hands on those weapons of mass destruction.
I'm so grateful for the fact that I live in Canada where this kind of insanity is much more rare, but I feel for the millions of parents who live in fear of their children being shot down in a place that should be safe. Why is it that an 18 year old can't buy a legal drink but they can buy a legal gun? Why is it that someone who has been reported dozens of times for violence and threats can buy a gun? Why can someone who has been accused or convicted of domestic violence can legally possess a gun? Why is anyone opposed to limiting access to guns to people who have clear patterns of abusive and violent behaviour? It's not my country, so I can't do anything about it, but I just fail to comprehend the mindset that seems to prevail among unconditional supporters of the second amendment.
I'm not opposed to safe gun ownership, but to me that means something more like the system we have in Canada. You have to take a class, you have to pass a background check, and you have to store guns safely, locked up away from the bullets (as far as I understand, there might be slight details I'm missing). Guns are for target shooting and hunting, and must be handled like the dangerous weapons they are.

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but can we please put the fallacy regarding domestic violence one to bed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban

It's illegal for a person convicted of domestic violence or in some cases merely under a restraining order to purchase or possess a firearm.

People with patterns of abusive and violent behavior should not have access to guns.  I'm not sure what that's referring to unless it's a continuation of the fallacy that people convicted of domestic violence can legally purchase or possess firearms.  Maybe you're referring to the FBI in this case that was criminally negligent (IMO) of failing to investigate the shooter, in that we would be in agreement.

Well the system barring them from ownership doesn't seem to be working very well:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/6/16612410/domestic-gun-violence-mass-shootings
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/politics/domestic-abuse-guns-texas-air-force.html
The background check system needs to be more robust and include all reported incidents, and needs to apply to all transfers of guns, including private sales, to be effective.
And yes, the FBI probably should have done a better job preventing the latest shooter from getting a gun, but I also brought up the fact that an 18 year old is allowed to buy a gun but not allowed to buy a drink, and that's fucked up.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #325 on: February 22, 2018, 09:14:55 AM »
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #326 on: February 22, 2018, 09:30:07 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.



I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Your opinion is noted.  I'm not sure what you base it on since there seems to be little in the way of available data or statistics. 

We have allowed pilots to be armed since 2001 and as far as I can tell there's only been 1 reported AD.  Unfortunately, there are no statistics on this either since the numbers of armed pilots is classified by the government.
I base it on the fact that I was a student in school, and the thought of my teachers carrying guns in the classroom is horrifying. I will have kids one day, and I don't want them to go to schools where their teachers have hidden guns just in case some monster comes in spraying bullets everywhere. I also want to prevent that monster from getting his hands on those weapons of mass destruction.
I'm so grateful for the fact that I live in Canada where this kind of insanity is much more rare, but I feel for the millions of parents who live in fear of their children being shot down in a place that should be safe. Why is it that an 18 year old can't buy a legal drink but they can buy a legal gun? Why is it that someone who has been reported dozens of times for violence and threats can buy a gun? Why can someone who has been accused or convicted of domestic violence can legally possess a gun? Why is anyone opposed to limiting access to guns to people who have clear patterns of abusive and violent behaviour? It's not my country, so I can't do anything about it, but I just fail to comprehend the mindset that seems to prevail among unconditional supporters of the second amendment.
I'm not opposed to safe gun ownership, but to me that means something more like the system we have in Canada. You have to take a class, you have to pass a background check, and you have to store guns safely, locked up away from the bullets (as far as I understand, there might be slight details I'm missing). Guns are for target shooting and hunting, and must be handled like the dangerous weapons they are.

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but can we please put the fallacy regarding domestic violence one to bed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban

It's illegal for a person convicted of domestic violence or in some cases merely under a restraining order to purchase or possess a firearm.

People with patterns of abusive and violent behavior should not have access to guns.  I'm not sure what that's referring to unless it's a continuation of the fallacy that people convicted of domestic violence can legally purchase or possess firearms.  Maybe you're referring to the FBI in this case that was criminally negligent (IMO) of failing to investigate the shooter, in that we would be in agreement.

Well the system barring them from ownership doesn't seem to be working very well:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/6/16612410/domestic-gun-violence-mass-shootings
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/politics/domestic-abuse-guns-texas-air-force.html
The background check system needs to be more robust and include all reported incidents, and needs to apply to all transfers of guns, including private sales, to be effective.
And yes, the FBI probably should have done a better job preventing the latest shooter from getting a gun, but I also brought up the fact that an 18 year old is allowed to buy a gun but not allowed to buy a drink, and that's fucked up.

One of the reasons for a national gun registry would be to ensure that the system will work much better to prevent those who aren't supposed to have guns from having them.

If all your guns are registered to your name, then you commit domestic assault we wouldn't have to rely on the honor system for you to turn them in.  We would know exactly what weapons you have.

We wouldn't have to rely on the honor system if you then go to buy from a private seller . . . because when ownership was transferred to your name it would be red flagged and the sale would be prevented.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #327 on: February 22, 2018, 09:31:19 AM »
I just watched the NRA at CPAC.  What a disgusting group of individuals--basically incapable and/unwilling to take any ownership in this debate.  They threw law enforcement under the bus--and basically encourage anarchy within the ranks of the FBI/law enforcement by suggesting rank and file members should overthrow any leader that has a view contrary to that of the NRA.

The NRA suggests that the school tragedies were a result of laws, currently on the books, were not enforced.  Ummm, yeah, Dipshits--that's how crimes are committed:  People break laws.   People shoot people.  Laws are broken.  No shit, Sherlock.  That's how all crimes are committed.  That's why they are called criminals, killers, insane.  Because they don't follow laws. 

The NRA suggest that it's not their problem that we are not protecting our children and adult citizens--it is a failure of politicians and communities from spending MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to arm teachers, to provide metal detectors, to fortify schools, to limit the freedoms of students.  Why must we pay these costs so you can get an erection holding an AR-15?  Why does all my medical records and the possibility of being unlawfully detained (in violation of the 4th Amend) be allowed so you can stroke yourself with your high-capacity weapon?  Why is my freedom of movement curtailed so you play big-boy with your firearm?

How anyone can contribute to that organization is beyond me.  And if that is who is on the the other side--a group that is unwilling to show compromise and make the choice "either/or" then I may need to move further to the left in my response.  I used to think there might be common ground.  Now I'm not so sure.

And if was a politician, on the dole of the NRA, and saw what I just witnessed on TV, then I'd be embarrassed to be associated with a lunatic group.  So I started doing what I did yesterday--I started going down the list (above) of congressmen/women that took money from the NRA and left a message of what I thought.

I've changed my tune after this latest (and not the last) tragedy--I no longer "hope and pray" for the victims  I now "hope and pray" for our country, call our congress people, march on the streets (March For Our Lives 3/24/2018), provide money where i can, and VOTE.

SharkStomper

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #328 on: February 22, 2018, 09:31:47 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.



I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Your opinion is noted.  I'm not sure what you base it on since there seems to be little in the way of available data or statistics. 

We have allowed pilots to be armed since 2001 and as far as I can tell there's only been 1 reported AD.  Unfortunately, there are no statistics on this either since the numbers of armed pilots is classified by the government.
I base it on the fact that I was a student in school, and the thought of my teachers carrying guns in the classroom is horrifying. I will have kids one day, and I don't want them to go to schools where their teachers have hidden guns just in case some monster comes in spraying bullets everywhere. I also want to prevent that monster from getting his hands on those weapons of mass destruction.
I'm so grateful for the fact that I live in Canada where this kind of insanity is much more rare, but I feel for the millions of parents who live in fear of their children being shot down in a place that should be safe. Why is it that an 18 year old can't buy a legal drink but they can buy a legal gun? Why is it that someone who has been reported dozens of times for violence and threats can buy a gun? Why can someone who has been accused or convicted of domestic violence can legally possess a gun? Why is anyone opposed to limiting access to guns to people who have clear patterns of abusive and violent behaviour? It's not my country, so I can't do anything about it, but I just fail to comprehend the mindset that seems to prevail among unconditional supporters of the second amendment.
I'm not opposed to safe gun ownership, but to me that means something more like the system we have in Canada. You have to take a class, you have to pass a background check, and you have to store guns safely, locked up away from the bullets (as far as I understand, there might be slight details I'm missing). Guns are for target shooting and hunting, and must be handled like the dangerous weapons they are.

I'm not sure where you're getting your facts from, but can we please put the fallacy regarding domestic violence one to bed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_Violence_Offender_Gun_Ban

It's illegal for a person convicted of domestic violence or in some cases merely under a restraining order to purchase or possess a firearm.

People with patterns of abusive and violent behavior should not have access to guns.  I'm not sure what that's referring to unless it's a continuation of the fallacy that people convicted of domestic violence can legally purchase or possess firearms.  Maybe you're referring to the FBI in this case that was criminally negligent (IMO) of failing to investigate the shooter, in that we would be in agreement.

Well the system barring them from ownership doesn't seem to be working very well:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/6/16612410/domestic-gun-violence-mass-shootings
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/politics/domestic-abuse-guns-texas-air-force.html
The background check system needs to be more robust and include all reported incidents, and needs to apply to all transfers of guns, including private sales, to be effective.
And yes, the FBI probably should have done a better job preventing the latest shooter from getting a gun, but I also brought up the fact that an 18 year old is allowed to buy a gun but not allowed to buy a drink, and that's fucked up.

Yeah the Air Force admitted that they failed to report his domestic violence record to civilian authorities.  Again an example of criminal negligence by a government agency, but I'm not sure what background check system would catch something that's not reported properly. 

I'd love to have access to the NICS system when I wanted to sell a gun.  I suspect privacy laws have something to do with the fact that I don't freely have that access, but that's just my suspicion.  Can you provide examples of private party sales that lead to mass shootings?  I'm sure they exist, and would be interested to see the statistics on that.

Age of legal consent is a different rabbit hole that I don't care to run down, you can take that up with someone else.  I merely want to correct fallacies that people throw around in this debate.

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #329 on: February 22, 2018, 09:32:57 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Exactly.

I read this in the Post this morning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/22/why-i-will-never-carry-a-gun-in-my-classroom/?utm_term=.22e1daed5745

That article is a crock of shit and the author comes off as hysterical (in the literal sense).  I know people have used a lot of short hand and you can probalby find somebody on the internet arguing for anything and everything, but nobody is trying to draft teachers into the security guard or law enforcement professions.

Some people just think it would make schools slightly less appealing as soft targets if potential school shooters had to at least consider the fact that teachers and/or administrators might be carrying.   

I really doubt more than a very small minority of teachers would want to carry.  I certainly wouldn't.  I don't carry now, even though it would be much less stressful for me to carry than a teacher and even though I probably should at least occasionally, because I'm just too lazy to deal with the hassle for such a remote risk. 

But I do think teachers should be allowed to carry, if they want to and if they have gone through some required training.  People carry all over the place now with very few incidents.  Very few teachers would take advantage of it and it's somewhat ridiculous to prohibit them from carrying while also not providing adequate security.

Ah, “hysterical.” That age-old dog-whistle word.

Can you please explain the literal definition of hysteria, and then cite where the author (female, of course) exhibits that behavior?

deriving from or affected by uncontrolled extreme emotion.

synonyms:   overwrought, overemotional, out of control, frenzied, frantic, wild, feverish, crazed;

She goes from a proposal that some teachers be allowed to carry to fretting about being obligated to carry, obligated to shoot someone, potentially civilly liable if she doesn't, and also being "drafted into an ideological war".  Assuming the author is not being disingenuous and trying to mislead the reader, you explain how that train of thought leaves the station without the author being overcome by emotion. 

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #330 on: February 22, 2018, 09:41:51 AM »
Yeah the Air Force admitted that they failed to report his domestic violence record to civilian authorities.  Again an example of criminal negligence by a government agency, but I'm not sure what background check system would catch something that's not reported properly. 

Yes, this is a perfectly valid point.  Reporting regarding who can and can't own guns needs to be made simple, consistent, and easily available.  That's one of the benefits of a single federal gun registry . . . it would simply reporting by all agencies, reducing chance for errors.  Right now there are a mishmash of different laws and databases, and often things fall through the cracks.

Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #331 on: February 22, 2018, 09:52:05 AM »
Do you get what I'm saying?  If gun advocates have a solution that will stop this from happening lets hear it?  Because where I'm at, I've heard the whinging for decades about how it can't be stopped without trampling the rights of legal owners and I'm sorta like...fuck it...lets change the constitution and trample those rights.  I no longer give a shit about your rights, you've had twenty years to fix this at least and near as I can tell you've done fuck all, so, yea, lets take all your guns away.  All I hear whenever the subject comes up is what's wrong with everyone else's ideas.  Nothing is not an acceptable path forward.

I'm prepared to let the gun rights activists lead us to progress, that's cool.  I don't understand guns?  Sure, fuck it, lets go with that.  You fix it then.  But if it doesn't work we're taking away your guns.  Clock is ticking.

Yeah, pretty much this.

I have to laugh when I read tough talk like this. If you could do a total ban, you would have done it a long time ago. The fact is, the gun control rhetoric has failed, gun rights continue to advance, and I don't see that changing any time soon. This isn't even about the hard core pro-gun people, the gun control crowd has failed to convince very many of the moderates either.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #332 on: February 22, 2018, 09:54:53 AM »




The NRA lobbied for - and got passed - a regulation that requires the records of a background check to be destroyed after 24 hours, which means the NICS system can NEVER BE AUDITED.  If someone is improperly approved?  Federal agencies can never follow up.

Guess what the GAO found?  97% of those who were improperly approved can evade detection thanks tot he 24-hour rule.
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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #333 on: February 22, 2018, 09:55:51 AM »
None of our enthusiastic gun supporters has any thoughts on why we can't have a national gun registry if it's OK to keep a registry of voters?

Has there been any chatter about the Florida gag law (NRA-supported) banning doctors from asking about guns that was in effect until very recently? I know that if I were a Florida voter, I'd be pretty interested to know which of my representatives voted to ban doctors, like the ones treating the shooter, from asking about guns in the home. 

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2011/155/Vote/HouseVote_h0155c2292.PDF

https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2011/155/Vote/SenateVote_h0155c2004.PDF

Because the right to vote by its very nature implies a government administration to facilitate it. Really, if you want to extend this to other rights, like the 2A, should we require you to report your free speech and register your religion?

Maybe there would be some gun control measures in place if it's proponents weren't so disingenuous.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #334 on: February 22, 2018, 09:56:06 AM »
I have to laugh when I read tough talk like this. If you could do a total ban, you would have done it a long time ago. The fact is, the gun control rhetoric has failed, gun rights continue to advance, and I don't see that changing any time soon. This isn't even about the hard core pro-gun people, the gun control crowd has failed to convince very many of the moderates either.

False.

8 proposals with >60% public support.



Congress won't enact a single one.
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DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #335 on: February 22, 2018, 09:58:41 AM »
Because the right to vote by its very nature implies a government administration to facilitate it. Really, if you want to extend this to other rights, like the 2A, should we require you to report your free speech and register your religion?

Maybe there would be some gun control measures in place if it's proponents weren't so disingenuous.

Must register for:
-property ownership
-marriage
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-voting
-government benefits

No registration needed:
-guns

Give me a ****ing break.
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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #336 on: February 22, 2018, 10:03:01 AM »
Because the right to vote by its very nature implies a government administration to facilitate it. Really, if you want to extend this to other rights, like the 2A, should we require you to report your free speech and register your religion?

Maybe there would be some gun control measures in place if it's proponents weren't so disingenuous.

Must register for:
-property ownership
-marriage
-automobile
-voting
-government benefits

No registration needed:
-guns

Give me a ****ing break.

You don't need to register for any of those things unless you want the government benefits associated with them (standing to sue over property disputes, breach of marriage contract, etc). And I already addressed voting.

I suppose your argument might hold water if gun owners were asking the government to facilitate the 2A by actually providing guns and training to people.

Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #337 on: February 22, 2018, 10:04:00 AM »
I have to laugh when I read tough talk like this. If you could do a total ban, you would have done it a long time ago. The fact is, the gun control rhetoric has failed, gun rights continue to advance, and I don't see that changing any time soon. This isn't even about the hard core pro-gun people, the gun control crowd has failed to convince very many of the moderates either.

False.

8 proposals with >60% public support.



Congress won't enact a single one.

Better get them to the ballot box to vote on it then... those polls don't mean much until then.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #338 on: February 22, 2018, 10:04:11 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Exactly.

I read this in the Post this morning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/22/why-i-will-never-carry-a-gun-in-my-classroom/?utm_term=.22e1daed5745

That article is a crock of shit and the author comes off as hysterical (in the literal sense).  I know people have used a lot of short hand and you can probalby find somebody on the internet arguing for anything and everything, but nobody is trying to draft teachers into the security guard or law enforcement professions.

Some people just think it would make schools slightly less appealing as soft targets if potential school shooters had to at least consider the fact that teachers and/or administrators might be carrying.   

I really doubt more than a very small minority of teachers would want to carry.  I certainly wouldn't.  I don't carry now, even though it would be much less stressful for me to carry than a teacher and even though I probably should at least occasionally, because I'm just too lazy to deal with the hassle for such a remote risk. 

But I do think teachers should be allowed to carry, if they want to and if they have gone through some required training.  People carry all over the place now with very few incidents.  Very few teachers would take advantage of it and it's somewhat ridiculous to prohibit them from carrying while also not providing adequate security.

Ah, “hysterical.” That age-old dog-whistle word.

Can you please explain the literal definition of hysteria, and then cite where the author (female, of course) exhibits that behavior?

deriving from or affected by uncontrolled extreme emotion.

synonyms:   overwrought, overemotional, out of control, frenzied, frantic, wild, feverish, crazed;

She goes from a proposal that some teachers be allowed to carry to fretting about being obligated to carry, obligated to shoot someone, potentially civilly liable if she doesn't, and also being "drafted into an ideological war".  Assuming the author is not being disingenuous and trying to mislead the reader, you explain how that train of thought leaves the station without the author being overcome by emotion.

That's quite subjective, isn't it?

Out of control? Frenzied? Frantic? Wild? Feverish? Crazed?

Wow. She's clearly ready for the loony bin.

Unless...

a psychological disorder (not now regarded as a single definite condition) whose symptoms include conversion of psychological stress into physical symptoms (somatization), selective amnesia, shallow volatile emotions, and overdramatic or attention-seeking behavior. The term has a controversial history as it was formerly regarded as a disease specific to women. (dictionary.com)

... you're speaking FIGURATIVELY, not literally...

And the woman's lived experience and perspective is something you merely want to discredit.

Edit: Here’s another perspective. Is this guy “hysterical,” too?

https://www.charlottefive.com/arming-teachers/
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:53:31 AM by Kris »
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #339 on: February 22, 2018, 10:08:01 AM »
Because the right to vote by its very nature implies a government administration to facilitate it. Really, if you want to extend this to other rights, like the 2A, should we require you to report your free speech and register your religion?

Maybe there would be some gun control measures in place if it's proponents weren't so disingenuous.

Must register for:
-property ownership
-marriage
-automobile
-voting
-government benefits

No registration needed:
-guns

Give me a ****ing break.

You don't need to register for any of those things unless you want the government benefits associated with them (standing to sue over property disputes, breach of marriage contract, etc). And I already addressed voting.

When you buy property it's automatically registered with your municipal government for tax purposes, is it not?

Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #340 on: February 22, 2018, 10:10:31 AM »
Because the right to vote by its very nature implies a government administration to facilitate it. Really, if you want to extend this to other rights, like the 2A, should we require you to report your free speech and register your religion?

Maybe there would be some gun control measures in place if it's proponents weren't so disingenuous.

Must register for:
-property ownership
-marriage
-automobile
-voting
-government benefits

No registration needed:
-guns

Give me a ****ing break.

You don't need to register for any of those things unless you want the government benefits associated with them (standing to sue over property disputes, breach of marriage contract, etc). And I already addressed voting.

When you buy property it's automatically registered with your municipal government for tax purposes, is it not?

Perhaps the way the government treats land ownership should get a second look too. Property taxes and such are also wrong.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #341 on: February 22, 2018, 10:34:05 AM »
Because the right to vote by its very nature implies a government administration to facilitate it. Really, if you want to extend this to other rights, like the 2A, should we require you to report your free speech and register your religion?

Maybe there would be some gun control measures in place if it's proponents weren't so disingenuous.

Must register for:
-property ownership
-marriage
-automobile
-voting
-government benefits

No registration needed:
-guns

Give me a ****ing break.

You don't need to register for any of those things unless you want the government benefits associated with them (standing to sue over property disputes, breach of marriage contract, etc). And I already addressed voting.

When you buy property it's automatically registered with your municipal government for tax purposes, is it not?

Perhaps the way the government treats land ownership should get a second look too. Property taxes and such are also wrong.

There are 18 countries on Earth without property taxes.

But said another way, "Well, I got called out on this legitimate point so let me deflect and say that the government is wrong in this case."
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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #342 on: February 22, 2018, 10:37:19 AM »
Because the right to vote by its very nature implies a government administration to facilitate it. Really, if you want to extend this to other rights, like the 2A, should we require you to report your free speech and register your religion?

Maybe there would be some gun control measures in place if it's proponents weren't so disingenuous.

Must register for:
-property ownership
-marriage
-automobile
-voting
-government benefits

No registration needed:
-guns

Give me a ****ing break.

You don't need to register for any of those things unless you want the government benefits associated with them (standing to sue over property disputes, breach of marriage contract, etc). And I already addressed voting.

When you buy property it's automatically registered with your municipal government for tax purposes, is it not?

Perhaps the way the government treats land ownership should get a second look too. Property taxes and such are also wrong.

There are 18 countries on Earth without property taxes.

But said another way, "Well, I got called out on this legitimate point so let me deflect and say that the government is wrong in this case."

It's not a legitimate point at all. You continue dodging my points because you have nothing.

From upthread, I'd really like to see this point addressed.

"I suppose your argument might hold water if gun owners were asking the government to facilitate the 2A by actually providing guns and training to people."
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 10:44:51 AM by Dr. Hasslein »

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #343 on: February 22, 2018, 11:42:16 AM »

Arming teachers will increase gun related accidents at school (unless you have some way of preventing accidents from ever happening).  Even assuming that we go along with your dubious assertion that arming teachers will have a beneficial impact on school shootings, the uncertain benefit has to outweigh the guaranteed negatives.


I've been trying to understand the position against allowing teachers to arm themselves.  Is this what it boils down too?  That accidents can happen so it's best to not allow them a chance to defend themselves and their students?  Teachers seem to be in the best position to stop mass school killings.
No, they are not. They are not trained to run towards bullets, they are not trained in target shooting, they did not sign up for that. Let teachers teach. The last thing we need is a bunch of crossfire and teachers getting shot because they were mistaken for the shooter. It's a recipe for disaster. And if we can't get funding for reasonable class sizes and school supplies, how are we supposed to afford guns for every teacher, and is that really the best use of school dollars?

Exactly.

I read this in the Post this morning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/22/why-i-will-never-carry-a-gun-in-my-classroom/?utm_term=.22e1daed5745

That article is a crock of shit and the author comes off as hysterical (in the literal sense).  I know people have used a lot of short hand and you can probalby find somebody on the internet arguing for anything and everything, but nobody is trying to draft teachers into the security guard or law enforcement professions.

Some people just think it would make schools slightly less appealing as soft targets if potential school shooters had to at least consider the fact that teachers and/or administrators might be carrying.   

I really doubt more than a very small minority of teachers would want to carry.  I certainly wouldn't.  I don't carry now, even though it would be much less stressful for me to carry than a teacher and even though I probably should at least occasionally, because I'm just too lazy to deal with the hassle for such a remote risk. 

But I do think teachers should be allowed to carry, if they want to and if they have gone through some required training.  People carry all over the place now with very few incidents.  Very few teachers would take advantage of it and it's somewhat ridiculous to prohibit them from carrying while also not providing adequate security.

Ah, “hysterical.” That age-old dog-whistle word.

Can you please explain the literal definition of hysteria, and then cite where the author (female, of course) exhibits that behavior?

deriving from or affected by uncontrolled extreme emotion.

synonyms:   overwrought, overemotional, out of control, frenzied, frantic, wild, feverish, crazed;

She goes from a proposal that some teachers be allowed to carry to fretting about being obligated to carry, obligated to shoot someone, potentially civilly liable if she doesn't, and also being "drafted into an ideological war".  Assuming the author is not being disingenuous and trying to mislead the reader, you explain how that train of thought leaves the station without the author being overcome by emotion.

That's quite subjective, isn't it?

Out of control? Frenzied? Frantic? Wild? Feverish? Crazed?

Wow. She's clearly ready for the loony bin.

Unless...

a psychological disorder (not now regarded as a single definite condition) whose symptoms include conversion of psychological stress into physical symptoms (somatization), selective amnesia, shallow volatile emotions, and overdramatic or attention-seeking behavior. The term has a controversial history as it was formerly regarded as a disease specific to women. (dictionary.com)

... you're speaking FIGURATIVELY, not literally...

And the woman's lived experience and perspective is something you merely want to discredit.

Edit: Here’s another perspective. Is this guy “hysterical,” too?

https://www.charlottefive.com/arming-teachers/
Can you really not see the difference between the author making a logical argument, supplemented by his own experiences, against an actual proposal being considered by some, versus the author panicking about being drafted into an ideological war and held civilly liable for a policy that nobody has seriously proposed? 


shenlong55

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #344 on: February 22, 2018, 11:44:56 AM »
Unless somebody starts wanting to have a useful conversation about potential solutions that don't include confiscation of 70%+ of the lawful guns in this country, I'm out.

How about this for a solution?

1. Adjust the requirements for obtaining a machine gun to match other restricted weapons (grenade launchers, grenades, etc.).
2. Implement a national concealed carry permit with strict training requirements which can be revoked for negligence/AD (with an appeals process).
3. Provide incentives to allow concealed carry on school campuses and/or allow concealed carry with the new national CC permit.
4. Provide funding for schools to implement safety measures (penetration resistant glass doors, single point of entry, time-lock magnetic doors).
5. Increased funding for mental health treatment and law enforcement (specifically earmarked for increased enforcement of current gun laws).
6. Fund a project to improve gun tech (fingerprint scanners, microstamp bullets, etc) and require it to be on all newly manufactured guns once it's proven to be reasonably reliable.
7. All new guns sold go into a national registry which requires a warrant to search but is easily searchable once a warrant is obtained.
8. The registered owner of a gun is held liable for any damages caused by it unless they can prove that it was properly secured and reported stolen.
9. Require background checks for all gun transfers (with shall issue, timely approval requirements and an appeals process).
10. Provide easy online access to background checks for private sellers.
11. Bar sales to all violent criminals, mentally ill and stalkers (with judicial review and appeals process).
12. Allow the government to impose a delay on firearms purchases by those on the terror watch list/no fly list that can become a permanent ban with judicial review.
13. Impose a one to two week waiting period for all gun purchases (exact time is up for debate).
14. Impose magazine capacity limits (exact number is up for debate).
15. Update the legal definition of a machine gun to be based on firing rate (targeting bump stocks).
16. A generous and voluntary gun buyback program applying to all guns made before the law passed (to remove as many unregistered guns from circulation as possible).
17. Remove restrictions on the government's ability to conduct gun violence research.

I'm sure I missed a few things and of course it would need further fleshing out before being finalized.  But if I were in congress this is the basic outline of the legislation that I would be drafting.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #345 on: February 22, 2018, 11:56:18 AM »
Unless somebody starts wanting to have a useful conversation about potential solutions that don't include confiscation of 70%+ of the lawful guns in this country, I'm out.

How about this for a solution?

1. Adjust the requirements for obtaining a machine gun to match other restricted weapons (grenade launchers, grenades, etc.).

Weapons capable of automatic fire are already effectively unobtainable.

The Las Vegas shooter (legally) modified a single-shot rifle that was able to accept high-capacity magazines. It's something worth adding to the list with regular automatic weapons, but the problem is you could 3D print the part.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #346 on: February 22, 2018, 11:58:05 AM »
Unless somebody starts wanting to have a useful conversation about potential solutions that don't include confiscation of 70%+ of the lawful guns in this country, I'm out.

How about this for a solution?

1. Adjust the requirements for obtaining a machine gun to match other restricted weapons (grenade launchers, grenades, etc.).
2. Implement a national concealed carry permit with strict training requirements which can be revoked for negligence/AD (with an appeals process).
3. Provide incentives to allow concealed carry on school campuses and/or allow concealed carry with the new national CC permit.
4. Provide funding for schools to implement safety measures (penetration resistant glass doors, single point of entry, time-lock magnetic doors).
5. Increased funding for mental health treatment and law enforcement (specifically earmarked for increased enforcement of current gun laws).
6. Fund a project to improve gun tech (fingerprint scanners, microstamp bullets, etc) and require it to be on all newly manufactured guns once it's proven to be reasonably reliable.
7. All new guns sold go into a national registry which requires a warrant to search but is easily searchable once a warrant is obtained.
8. The registered owner of a gun is held liable for any damages caused by it unless they can prove that it was properly secured and reported stolen.
9. Require background checks for all gun transfers (with shall issue, timely approval requirements and an appeals process).
10. Provide easy online access to background checks for private sellers.
11. Bar sales to all violent criminals, mentally ill and stalkers (with judicial review and appeals process).
12. Allow the government to impose a delay on firearms purchases by those on the terror watch list/no fly list that can become a permanent ban with judicial review.
13. Impose a one to two week waiting period for all gun purchases (exact time is up for debate).
14. Impose magazine capacity limits (exact number is up for debate).
15. Update the legal definition of a machine gun to be based on firing rate (targeting bump stocks).
16. A generous and voluntary gun buyback program applying to all guns made before the law passed (to remove as many unregistered guns from circulation as possible).
17. Remove restrictions on the government's ability to conduct gun violence research.

I'm sure I missed a few things and of course it would need further fleshing out before being finalized.  But if I were in congress this is the basic outline of the legislation that I would be drafting.


Generally this seems pretty reasonable.  Some points that may merit additional discussion though:

1 - Fully automatic weapons aren't really used too often in crime, I'm not sure there's going to be significant benefit from this action.

3 - There has still been no evidence presented that arming teachers will be a net benefit for child safety.  I'm not entirely sure why incentives should be given to carry a gun in a school.

11 - This is a bit tricky because mental illness will require a diagnosis.  If someone really likes his guns is he likely to seek psychiatric treatment if he knows he'll lost 'em?

shenlong55

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #347 on: February 22, 2018, 11:59:52 AM »
Unless somebody starts wanting to have a useful conversation about potential solutions that don't include confiscation of 70%+ of the lawful guns in this country, I'm out.

How about this for a solution?

1. Adjust the requirements for obtaining a machine gun to match other restricted weapons (grenade launchers, grenades, etc.).

Weapons capable of automatic fire are already effectively unobtainable.

The Las Vegas shooter (legally) modified a single-shot rifle that was able to accept high-capacity magazines. It's something worth adding to the list with regular automatic weapons, but the problem is you could 3D print the part.

Generally this seems pretty reasonable.  Some points that may merit additional discussion though:

1 - Fully automatic weapons aren't really used too often in crime, I'm not sure there's going to be significant benefit from this action.

3 - There has still been no evidence presented that arming teachers will be a net benefit for child safety.  I'm not entirely sure why incentives should be given to carry a gun in a school.

11 - This is a bit tricky because mental illness will require a diagnosis.  If someone really likes his guns is he likely to seek psychiatric treatment if he knows he'll lost 'em?

1 - Not trying to make them harder to obtain with that one.  My understanding from the discussion on these threads is that it would actually make them easier to obtain.  It's a message of good faith to conservatives, because I don't think it will significantly worsen the situation (since I don't see a lot of grenade launchers being used in crimes).

3 - Not incentives to carry, just incentives to allow school staff to carry if they so choose.

11- That's a good point and I don't have a great answer off the top of my head.

Edited to address multiple posts.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 12:12:07 PM by shenlong55 »

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #348 on: February 22, 2018, 12:31:56 PM »

If the conversation isn't going to be honest, why bother.


Unless somebody starts wanting to have a useful conversation about potential solutions that don't include confiscation of 70%+ of the lawful guns in this country, I'm out.

Put another way - "Wow, a lot of people have a different opinion than me.  I'm not talking to you guys."

Quote
A 2017 Pew Research Center poll found that 68 percent of adults favor banning assault weapons, and 65 percent support a ban on high-capacity magazines.

More strikingly, substantial numbers of gun owners supported the measures as well: 48 percent of gun owners in that poll said they would support a ban on assault style weapons, and 44 percent said they favored a ban on high-capacity magazines. A Quinnipiac poll conducted later in the year showed similar numbers.
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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #349 on: February 22, 2018, 12:34:44 PM »

If the conversation isn't going to be honest, why bother.


Unless somebody starts wanting to have a useful conversation about potential solutions that don't include confiscation of 70%+ of the lawful guns in this country, I'm out.

Put another way - "Wow, a lot of people have a different opinion than me.  I'm not talking to you guys."

Quote
A 2017 Pew Research Center poll found that 68 percent of adults favor banning assault weapons, and 65 percent support a ban on high-capacity magazines.

More strikingly, substantial numbers of gun owners supported the measures as well: 48 percent of gun owners in that poll said they would support a ban on assault style weapons, and 44 percent said they favored a ban on high-capacity magazines. A Quinnipiac poll conducted later in the year showed similar numbers.

Get em down to the ballot box and let's amend the Constitution then. What people think doesn't matter unless, you know, they vote for it. And if it's a winning issue, Democrats should push gun control to the front of their platform for the 2018 midterms.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 12:40:38 PM by Dr. Hasslein »