Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 62570 times)

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #200 on: February 15, 2018, 02:22:46 PM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)
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Wexler

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #201 on: February 15, 2018, 04:16:54 PM »
After reading more about this shooting and the shooter in particular, I'm taking the position that guns / gun laws / access to guns did not cause this tragedy.

This person was mentally unstable and not capable of fitting into our society.  This person was determined to cause great harm to a lot of people.  If he didn't have access to guns I expect he would have used another means.  We would be reading about a bombing or a case of mass vehicular homicide like we have seen in places where guns are harder to get. 

This person was already identified as a threat, investigated by the FBI, and treated for mental health issues.  Then he 'slipped through the cracks' and ended up doing just what everyone feared he would do. 

So what does this have to do with the instrument he used to kill?  Not much I think.  We can debate if the numbers would be different if he used a bomb, car or samurai sword, but it's hard to tell.  What we may agree on is this person wanted to kill people, and he would have done it regardless of laws or access to a particular weapon.

I don't know all the details, this is only my opinion.  I'm wondering what could have been done?  People have freedoms in this country and it's hard to get help for someone that refuses it.  There are many others like him that we have identified as potential threats.  Do we take away certain rights from these people, and would it matter if they are determined?  Do we take away the persons freedom altogether? 

There is no easy solution.

Samurai sword?  Are you kidding me?

There are solutions.  It's just that a vocal minority of people who like guns as a hobby because it makes them feel powerful in a changing world are standing in the way of implementing them.  We could start with insurance liability.  Do you think the family that took this kid in would have been like "oh-it's fine-have an arsenal" if their homeowner's insurance were priced to account for the risk of a 19 year old with mental health problems and his guns?  Hell no. What if any of the white supremacists who likely straw sold him some of those guns were hauled into jail?  I think that people would be a lot less likely to sell guns to their Nazi-curious friends if they suddenly had liability on the table.

And those are just a couple of solutions.  None of the mainstream proposal on the table involve grabbing all guns.  Universal background checks, liability, storage and registration requirements, stricter monitoring of domestic violence perpetrators, etc.  We are awash in solutions.  What we lack is political will.

If you want to change political will, start voting for democrats. Up and down the ballot.  Grab a nonvoting friend and get them to vote for democrats.  When politicians fear the political will of engaged democrats as much as they fear pissing off racist old people, then we'll see change.




zoltani

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #202 on: February 15, 2018, 05:19:19 PM »
Nice 'no true scotsman' fallacy there.

Oops!

“We are still doing some work, but we have no known ties between the ROF, Jordan Jereb or the Broward shooter,” a Leon County Sheriff’s Office spokesman told the Tallahassee Democrat. The sheriff’s office has arrested Jereb at least four times since January 2014 and has been monitoring ROF’s membership, The Associated Press reported."

"On Thursday afternoon, members of The Right Stuff, a white supremacist forum, claimed that the story of Cruz being tied to ROF was false. “Started out as an inside joke until Jordan Jereb literally told the media that it was true and that he was affiliated with a school shooter,” a TRS user posting under the name “Jordan Fash” wrote. 

Fash posted screenshots of an ABC reporter messaging a user named “Ethan” on Instagram asking for information about Cruz. Ethan told the reporter that Cruz was an ROF member. “It was common knowledge he did rallies with ROF, I frequently saw him conversing with Jordan Jereb in person,” the user said.

The ABC reporter declined to comment. ABC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment on how it reported its story."

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Yvon Chouinard

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #203 on: February 15, 2018, 05:50:21 PM »
I didn't suggest that he was or wasn't a white supremacist.  You were saying that he couldn't be a white supremacist from what appeared to be the argument that no true white supremacists would kill a white person . . . which is the fallacy that I was pointing out.

zoltani

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #204 on: February 15, 2018, 06:16:05 PM »
I didn't suggest that he was or wasn't a white supremacist.  You were saying that he couldn't be a white supremacist from what appeared to be the argument that no true white supremacists would kill a white person . . . which is the fallacy that I was pointing out.

I did not say he couldn't be. I was pointing out that the story is fishy because there is no evidence that the attack was racially motivated at all, especially when you consider most victims were white. I'm looking at the facts and making my own conclusions. You're welcome to buy whatever narrative is pushed without thought though.
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Kyle Schuant

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #205 on: February 15, 2018, 08:34:21 PM »
This is something the US will never address, because the questions it must ask of itself are like the questions Japan would have if it talked about Unit 731, or Turkey about the Armenian genocide. There are systemic cultural issues here, which nobody will address.


Instead, firearms in the US are like the Maltese Falcon: not really the story, just something to move other stories forward, like Rep vs Dem.
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px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #206 on: February 15, 2018, 10:05:03 PM »
There are systemic cultural issues here, which nobody will address.



Just look at violent crime rate and murder rate among certain subcultures. Add that these same acts often occur in the most regulated areas for firearms. And then there is the political side of these areas too, which is mainly liberal.

On the other side, there is the mental illness. In the 80's, the funding for mental illness treatment was severely cut. Mentally ill were gradually left out of treatment and you now see the results of decades of mental illness neglect. Couple that with certain prescriptions being frequently involved in these types of events, and you have a pretty good road map of issues.

Just like this recent Florida case. Mental illness. FBI was told about his issues and threats. Still nothing was done. Recent posts about prepping for the act went unnoticed too.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #207 on: February 16, 2018, 06:18:02 AM »
For a white supremacist he sure did shoot a lot of white people.

I don't think it's so much about the victims' ethnic backgrounds as it is the general propensity for violence among extreme ideologues. Whether or not he actually had ties to Republic of Florida remains an open question, but there were also other accounts of him saying things that align with the far right. It's still early in the investigation, and it sounds like there will be a fair amount of social media and photo evidence to go on.
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ooeei

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #208 on: February 16, 2018, 07:20:26 AM »
Firstly, I want to be very clear that I don't disagree with what you're saying. We have a violence problem. We have a media problem. (Problems?)

I do, however, have a slight qualm with your UK bombing example. Bombs don't scale the way population does. You can only fit so many bodies into the effective radius of a given device, the size of the country doesn't matter much, only local density. Short of attacking a stadium or large urban building--which are substantially similar in most developed nations regardless of geography or population--you just aren't going to see 200/3000 range numbers in a bomb attack.

My example wasn't meant to say it's the equivalent of a giant bomb. I'm saying it's the equivalent of seeing the exact same event happen every 5 weeks for the entire year in the US. It could happen 10x as many times in a given time frame, and still be equal at a per capita level. If the US saw 9 of those bombings in a year, it would actually be SAFER in the US, despite having 9x as many bombings plastered on the media nearly monthly.

Which country seems more dangerous, one that has 1 bombing killing 20 people in a year, or one that has 9 bombings killing 20 people in a year? In the UK it would be considered a tragedy, in the US it would be considered an epidemic (despite it actually being safer in the US in this example) because people think about these things in absolute numbers and how often it's on the news rather than based on the size of the country.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 07:26:31 AM by ooeei »

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #209 on: February 16, 2018, 07:28:52 AM »
Firstly, I want to be very clear that I don't disagree with what you're saying. We have a violence problem. We have a media problem. (Problems?)

I do, however, have a slight qualm with your UK bombing example. Bombs don't scale the way population does. You can only fit so many bodies into the effective radius of a given device, the size of the country doesn't matter much, only local density. Short of attacking a stadium or large urban building--which are substantially similar in most developed nations regardless of geography or population--you just aren't going to see 200/3000 range numbers in a bomb attack.

My example wasn't meant to say it's the equivalent of a giant bomb. I'm saying it's the equivalent of seeing the exact same event happen every 5 weeks for the entire year in the US. It could happen 10x as many times in a given time frame, and still be equal at a per capita level. If the US saw 9 of those bombings in a year, it would actually be SAFER in the US, despite having 9x as many bombings plastered on the media nearly monthly.

Which country seems more dangerous, one that has 1 bombing killing 20 people in a year, or one that has 9 bombings killing 20 people in a year? In the UK it would be considered a tragedy, in the US it would be considered an epidemic because people think about these things in absolute numbers and how often it's on the news rather than based on the size of the country.

I guess I just disagree that you can judge it on a per capita basis. Part of it is if individuals or groups (whether coordinated or not) were able to plan and carry out that many attacks, it would be a huge policing failure. I just don't think it scales with population in a linear fashion, if that makes sense?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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ooeei

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #210 on: February 16, 2018, 07:45:59 AM »
I guess I just disagree that you can judge it on a per capita basis. Part of it is if individuals or groups (whether coordinated or not) were able to plan and carry out that many attacks, it would be a huge policing failure. I just don't think it scales with population in a linear fashion, if that makes sense?

How can you not judge it on a per capita basis? There are 10x as many people, so 10x as many crazy people who want to kill a bunch of people (assuming similar populations).

To take it to an extreme, are you saying we should expect a country with 1,000,000,000 people to experience the same quantity of mass violence incidents as a country of 10,000? If the country of 1 billion has 200 incidents and the country with 10,000 has 100 incidents, which do you think is safer to live in?

edit: If you just looked at news headlines for the two countries, the 10k population one would certainly seem safer due to the lower number of incidents, assuming all of them made national news both places.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 07:47:54 AM by ooeei »

Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #211 on: February 16, 2018, 08:08:18 AM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

Shoot! I mean go for it! It can be a problem.

ooeei

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #212 on: February 16, 2018, 08:49:22 AM »
I keep coming back to the individual.  0.0001% of our population has the mental state and capability to plan and execute these terrible attacks.  How can we better identify, monitor and prevent them from following through with their plans?  This particular person raised every red flag in the book and we were unwilling/unable to stop him.

The problem is any demographic he belonged to most likely has 1000's of similar people who never do anything wrong. Innocent until proven guilty is a pretty big deal in the US, I think for good reason, but the weakness it does have is sometimes it lets guilty/dangerous people roam free.

If we want total safety, we need total security and total control, and to be okay with locking up shitloads of people who never would've done anything wrong in order to catch the few who would. We already imprison the most people per capita of anywhere in the world by a hefty portion, so I'm not sure more liberal imprisonment requirements are really the way to go.

The TSA was our last attempt at a similar problem, and currently costs $7 billion a year not including the time wasted by millions of people every year at it, not to mention the breaching of privacy we're becoming scarily accustomed to.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 08:52:03 AM by ooeei »

Wexler

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #213 on: February 16, 2018, 10:28:45 AM »
After reading more about this shooting and the shooter in particular, I'm taking the position that guns / gun laws / access to guns did not cause this tragedy.

This person was mentally unstable and not capable of fitting into our society.  This person was determined to cause great harm to a lot of people.  If he didn't have access to guns I expect he would have used another means.  We would be reading about a bombing or a case of mass vehicular homicide like we have seen in places where guns are harder to get. 

This person was already identified as a threat, investigated by the FBI, and treated for mental health issues.  Then he 'slipped through the cracks' and ended up doing just what everyone feared he would do. 

So what does this have to do with the instrument he used to kill?  Not much I think.  We can debate if the numbers would be different if he used a bomb, car or samurai sword, but it's hard to tell.  What we may agree on is this person wanted to kill people, and he would have done it regardless of laws or access to a particular weapon.

I don't know all the details, this is only my opinion.  I'm wondering what could have been done?  People have freedoms in this country and it's hard to get help for someone that refuses it.  There are many others like him that we have identified as potential threats.  Do we take away certain rights from these people, and would it matter if they are determined?  Do we take away the persons freedom altogether? 

There is no easy solution.

Samurai sword?  Are you kidding me?

There are solutions.  It's just that a vocal minority of people who like guns as a hobby because it makes them feel powerful in a changing world are standing in the way of implementing them.  We could start with insurance liability.  Do you think the family that took this kid in would have been like "oh-it's fine-have an arsenal" if their homeowner's insurance were priced to account for the risk of a 19 year old with mental health problems and his guns?  Hell no. What if any of the white supremacists who likely straw sold him some of those guns were hauled into jail?  I think that people would be a lot less likely to sell guns to their Nazi-curious friends if they suddenly had liability on the table.

And those are just a couple of solutions.  None of the mainstream proposal on the table involve grabbing all guns.  Universal background checks, liability, storage and registration requirements, stricter monitoring of domestic violence perpetrators, etc.  We are awash in solutions.  What we lack is political will.

If you want to change political will, start voting for democrats. Up and down the ballot.  Grab a nonvoting friend and get them to vote for democrats.  When politicians fear the political will of engaged democrats as much as they fear pissing off racist old people, then we'll see change.

Many of the laws you're proposing make sense, though some like liability/storage may be difficult to enforce in all but extremely negligent cases.  The insurance aspect would probably not work as I'm not sure insurers would want to take this risk and it's unlikely people would pay for the insurance.  Remember that most people don't have much to lose in the first place.

Let's say we implement all of them anyways, will it really help stop nutcases from getting their hands on weapons and following through with their plans?  I don't think these measures are strong enough to be effective.

I think reduced magazine capacities could help, provided there are brave individuals ready to take action during reloads.  Beyond that, we would need significant, second amendment defying restrictions on ownership.  This country isn't ready for that yet.

I keep coming back to the individual.  0.0001% of our population has the mental state and capability to plan and execute these terrible attacks.  How can we better identify, monitor and prevent them from following through with their plans?  This particular person raised every red flag in the book and we were unwilling/unable to stop him.

Actually, many mass shooters come from upper middle class backgrounds.  Their families would have a great deal to lose under liability laws.  Just having to pay an extra $1000/year in insurance would probably be enough financial incentive for regional manager Steve to rethink having a gun safe.  And if a registration to his 18 year old unemployed son tied to his address comes through, then the insurance company can adjust his rates to compensate.

In Florida, the governor signed a law barring physicians from asking about guns in the home.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/02/17/515764335/court-strikes-down-florida-law-barring-doctors-from-discussing-guns-with-patient
That law was just struck down in 2017, and went into effect in 2014.  So, during many of the years that the Florida shooter was being treated for mental health issues, his providers were barred from asking his family about guns and educating them about potential risks.  One solution is to stop fucking voting for Republicans who sign legislation like this and who let it fester before the court has to step in.  What if Adam Lanza's doctors, as part of their mental health assessment for him prior to him being committed (a possible trigger for the Sandy Hook shooting), required his mother to take immediate action with regard to the arsenal of firearms in the home?  What if there were a law that stated that involuntary commission required doctors to ask about guns in the home?  Conservatives are stoked to require doctors to provide factually incorrect information about links between breast cancer and abortion, so they can't possibly object to laws that require doctors to provide education as a matter of principle.

The Florida shooter raised flags, those flags WERE REPORTED (take note, Trump), but because of the laxity of our gun laws, those reports withered and died.  For a report to have teeth, there has to be a law that can be applied.  Our current laws are "meh."  The gag law signed by Rick Scott should be an affront to reasonable gun owners.  However, because Republicans are NEVER punished for their actions by their voters,politicians continue to kiss NRA ass, and the NRA keeps one-clicking to buy their legislative wish lists.  Start punishing politicians at the polls.  Vote. Don't let your friends get away with not voting.  Bug your family.  Shame the nonvoters around you.  Get people registered.



 

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #214 on: February 16, 2018, 11:16:49 AM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.   

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #215 on: February 16, 2018, 11:20:05 AM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.

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an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #216 on: February 16, 2018, 11:31:56 AM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.

I think Kris was referring to "toxic masculinity" as a personality feature, not that masculinity, in general, is toxic.

I don't think any reasonable person would file protecting others from violent attack as toxic, masculine or otherwise.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #217 on: February 16, 2018, 11:34:34 AM »
After reading more about this shooting and the shooter in particular, I'm taking the position that guns / gun laws / access to guns did not cause this tragedy.

This person was mentally unstable and not capable of fitting into our society. ...

There is no easy solution.


 We could start with insurance liability. ....

And those are just a couple of solutions.  None of the mainstream proposal on the table involve grabbing all guns.  Universal background checks, liability, storage and registration requirements, stricter monitoring of domestic violence perpetrators, etc.  We are awash in solutions.  What we lack is political will.



I excised some of your post to get to the relevant part for me, and many pro2nd Amendment types.

You'll "start" there? Where will you finish? Once the 2nd Amendment is abolished?


DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #218 on: February 16, 2018, 11:39:30 AM »
You'll "start" there? Where will you finish? Once the 2nd Amendment is abolished?

We can keep the 2nd Amendment.  You're welcome to join a "well regulated militia" as well.
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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #219 on: February 16, 2018, 11:45:42 AM »
You'll "start" there? Where will you finish? Once the 2nd Amendment is abolished?

We can keep the 2nd Amendment.  You're welcome to join a "well regulated militia" as well.

Are you familiar with how courts have interpreted the 2nd Amendment?

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #220 on: February 16, 2018, 12:12:20 PM »
You'll "start" there? Where will you finish? Once the 2nd Amendment is abolished?

We can keep the 2nd Amendment.  You're welcome to join a "well regulated militia" as well.

Are you familiar with how courts have interpreted the 2nd Amendment?
Or more importantly, what Militia actually means? (the collective group of all fighting aged individuals)   The second amend's protection of a individuals right to bear arms is more solid than a court interpration... even if it was the right one.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #221 on: February 16, 2018, 12:16:35 PM »
Quote
The Court cannot take judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has today any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, and therefore cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees to the citizen the right to keep and bear such a weapon.

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Miller



Modern court interpretations have been quite different, but there was a time when the supreme court figured that a well regulated militia actually meant what it said.

Wexler

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #222 on: February 16, 2018, 01:01:15 PM »
After reading more about this shooting and the shooter in particular, I'm taking the position that guns / gun laws / access to guns did not cause this tragedy.

This person was mentally unstable and not capable of fitting into our society. ...

There is no easy solution.



 We could start with insurance liability. ....

And those are just a couple of solutions.  None of the mainstream proposal on the table involve grabbing all guns.  Universal background checks, liability, storage and registration requirements, stricter monitoring of domestic violence perpetrators, etc.  We are awash in solutions.  What we lack is political will.



I excised some of your post to get to the relevant part for me, and many pro2nd Amendment types.

You'll "start" there? Where will you finish? Once the 2nd Amendment is abolished?

I never said that.  Do pro 2nd amendment types see invisible words?  I offered concrete examples, one of which was insurance liability.  Let's start taking action there.  There is no invisible "and stop when we overturn the 2nd"  Put your gun down-I'm not grabbing it.

If you can't discuss specific examples and get on board with specific legislation, there's no hope.  I mean, legislation according to any of these ideas will have words that bind and limit it.  That's how laws work. 


TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #223 on: February 16, 2018, 01:25:49 PM »

I never said that.  Do pro 2nd amendment types see invisible words?  I offered concrete examples, one of which was insurance liability.  Let's start taking action there.  There is no invisible "and stop when we overturn the 2nd"  Put your gun down-I'm not grabbing it.

If you can't discuss specific examples and get on board with specific legislation, there's no hope.  I mean, legislation according to any of these ideas will have words that bind and limit it.  That's how laws work.

The insurance thing is interesting.  Most insurance the actual rate isn't set, the requirement to have it is, and then the liability is determined by the carriers.  In some specific instances the government steps in to essentially subsidize the rate, or maybe be the issuer (like flood insurance), but I'm curious what you think would be a sufficient number to achieve your outcome.

For instance, in this recent Florida shooting, the $1000 number you cited, I see two problems with that.  The first is that for a 19 year old, $1,000 isn't an insurmountable amount of cash, it's less than the total all-in cost of a vehicle at this point, which would still make the gun preferable to the van as an instrument of mass destruction.  Likewise, based on a rough calculation, I don't think the liability for gun violence would end up causing the premium for gun insurance to be $1,000/yr.  It's going to be closer to $50.00.

You could set the insured amount higher, require 1mil in insurance per round capacity, but that's really easy to get around and would only boost sales of one round clips and kill sales of revolvers.

There's also the problem of when it gets paid.  There's a ton of things that require insurance now where you essentially get billed for it, so the problem of someone going to the store, signing up for the insurance, walking out with the guns and ammo, committing the crime, and suicide before paying the insurance bill, that's still there.

If you mean more like a bonding type thing, where you have to be bonded to own a gun, and it's a very expensive bond, on the order of fifty thousand or so, that would probably work.  You'd certainly stop most kids from being able to pull it off, and most adults too would end up trading the gun in for the return of the bond, using the cash to get their life back in order before they needed to go postal.  I like the bond idea, maybe grandfather it so we deal with this for another couple decades before the problem goes away.

But that's what he meant Wexler.  He meant that your solutions have problems that won't prevent alot of this in the near term, and so he doesn't believe you when you say you won't come take his guns.  Because while I'm on board with trying something, this isn't an irrational fear:

Shooting happens > We have to do something! > New legislation > Shooting happens > We have to do something!

This is the history of gun restrictions in the U.S.  It rarely ever goes the other way, that a piece of gun ownership restricting legislation is repealed once it's found not to stop the thing we wanted to stop.  So if you did intend to have the conversation, you can't be dismissive of this.  You can point out, and it is totally fair to do it:

To the second amendment advocates:  Get your shit together, work this out, keep this stuff from happening, or we will call a constitutional convention and you will lose this right.
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #224 on: February 16, 2018, 01:42:56 PM »
Shooting happens > We have to do something! > New legislation > Shooting happens > We have to do something!

This is the history of gun restrictions in the U.S.  It rarely ever goes the other way, that a piece of gun ownership restricting legislation is repealed once it's found not to stop the thing we wanted to stop.  So if you did intend to have the conversation, you can't be dismissive of this.

This must be why gun ownership in the US is so difficult.  An endless cycle of gun restriction.  Like . . . uh . . . fully automatic weapons and sawed off shotguns!  And . . . pretty much nothing else.  And you can still own fully automatic weapons . . . it's just more difficult.

So damned restrictive.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #225 on: February 16, 2018, 01:48:22 PM »
Shooting happens > We have to do something! > New legislation > Shooting happens > We have to do something!

This is the history of gun restrictions in the U.S.  It rarely ever goes the other way, that a piece of gun ownership restricting legislation is repealed once it's found not to stop the thing we wanted to stop.  So if you did intend to have the conversation, you can't be dismissive of this.

This must be why gun ownership in the US is so difficult.  An endless cycle of gun restriction.  Like . . . uh . . . fully automatic weapons and sawed off shotguns!  And . . . pretty much nothing else.  And you can still own fully automatic weapons . . . it's just more difficult.

So damned restrictive.

Not to mention bump stocks, those basically make a full auto weapon out of a semi auto.  From everything I have found on google they are still legal, no changes since Vegas

TheOldestYoungMan

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #226 on: February 16, 2018, 02:09:20 PM »
Shooting happens > We have to do something! > New legislation > Shooting happens > We have to do something!

This is the history of gun restrictions in the U.S.  It rarely ever goes the other way, that a piece of gun ownership restricting legislation is repealed once it's found not to stop the thing we wanted to stop.  So if you did intend to have the conversation, you can't be dismissive of this.

This must be why gun ownership in the US is so difficult.  An endless cycle of gun restriction.  Like . . . uh . . . fully automatic weapons and sawed off shotguns!  And . . . pretty much nothing else.  And you can still own fully automatic weapons . . . it's just more difficult.

So damned restrictive.

*rubs temple*  It's how progressivism works.  Literally the blueprint.  Once again I'm on your side pleading with you to stop trolling.
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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #227 on: February 16, 2018, 03:13:07 PM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.

I think Kris was referring to "toxic masculinity" as a personality feature, not that masculinity, in general, is toxic.

I don't think any reasonable person would file protecting others from violent attack as toxic, masculine or otherwise.

I don't think any reasonable person would file taking a gun and shooting unarmed children as masculine. 

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #228 on: February 16, 2018, 03:16:37 PM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.

I think Kris was referring to "toxic masculinity" as a personality feature, not that masculinity, in general, is toxic.

I don't think any reasonable person would file protecting others from violent attack as toxic, masculine or otherwise.

I don't think any reasonable person would file taking a gun and shooting unarmed children as masculine.

Here, Jrr85, I think you might need some help with this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

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blackknight89

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #229 on: February 16, 2018, 07:00:27 PM »
How is it that we expect a "gun-free zone" sign to protect our schools? The shooter yesterday killed 17 people in 3 minutes. https://www.apnews.com/a6fd450470d4464ab423b8b3a911b42d . I don't know what the police response time is to the schools in your area, but given the size of the high school where the shooting happened yesterday they could have been down the street and still be unable to respond in time.

So if the police won't be there in time, how can you stop someone who goes to a school with a gun and the intent to kill? The only way to stop a psychopath with a gun is with another gun. If people are serious about stopping tragedies like this from happen, then harden the target. Our society has no problem with firearms protecting our government, our banks, our corporations, and many other places. Why are we so against such protections at our schools. Nearly every mass shooting occurs in a "gun-free" zone, where signs advertise the absence of resistance. Many of these killers commit suicide when confronted by law enforcement or someone with a gun.

The most effective deterrent to someone who obtains a gun and wants to kill innocent people is the threat of being confronted by someone with a firearm and the training to use it. If some teachers don't want to have to carry a gun at school, that's fine. Armed security and controlling access to schools needs money and time to implement. But those "gun-free" signs could be gone tomorrow. Over 15 million Americans have concealed carry permits.

If you believe that it is possible to keep people with murderous intentions from obtaining firearms, you need a lesson in math. I live in a state where nearly every regulation that I have seen proposed as a way of stopping mass shootings has been passed into law over the past 30 years or so. "Assault weapon" bans, magazine limits, universal background checks, etc. Yet in the past 5 years I found over a half dozen instances where unarmed people were shot and killed in a "gun-free" zone.

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #230 on: February 17, 2018, 02:43:27 AM »
The most effective deterrent to someone who obtains a gun and wants to kill innocent people is the threat of being confronted by someone with a firearm and the training to use it. If some teachers don't want to have to carry a gun at school, that's fine. Armed security and controlling access to schools needs money and time to implement. But those "gun-free" signs could be gone tomorrow. Over 15 million Americans have concealed carry permits.

I don't believe escalation is the answer. Where does it end? Once all students are armed with guns?

Did the alarm bells not sound that society needs to change when people believed it necessary to have security guards at schools?

Turning schools into prisons isn't a solution I'd want for my children. Sounds like a fucking horrible place to go to learn and spend the majority of ones youth.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 02:49:31 AM by gooki »
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Kyle Schuant

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #231 on: February 17, 2018, 02:55:51 AM »
When everyone is armed, there is no violence.

Like in Afghanistan!
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px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #232 on: February 17, 2018, 11:39:32 AM »
When everyone is armed, there is no violence.

Like in Afghanistan!

So, they arm themselves to protect from the violence. Or is the Taliban Utopia the ideal living environment?

Tell us why security in the school should not be armed? Or are firearms the only weapon you can think of? Let's go the UK way and start banning steak knives :)

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #233 on: February 17, 2018, 12:05:26 PM »
Worth noting that the armed police officer at the school wasn't able to stop the shooting. He never encountered the gunman.
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TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #234 on: February 17, 2018, 12:29:48 PM »
The most effective deterrent to someone who obtains a gun and wants to kill innocent people is the threat of being confronted by someone with a firearm and the training to use it. If some teachers don't want to have to carry a gun at school, that's fine. Armed security and controlling access to schools needs money and time to implement. But those "gun-free" signs could be gone tomorrow. Over 15 million Americans have concealed carry permits.

I don't believe escalation is the answer. Where does it end? Once all students are armed with guns?

Did the alarm bells not sound that society needs to change when people believed it necessary to have security guards at schools?

Turning schools into prisons isn't a solution I'd want for my children. Sounds like a fucking horrible place to go to learn and spend the majority of ones youth.

I feel like this sums up nicely one of the biggest disconnects between gun supporters and the rest of us. We don't believe that more weapons equals more safety. I remember reading about the Wild West as a kid and thinking how glad I am life isn't like that anymore. It seems like gun supporters want that lifestyle back.

I don't want my kids' teachers to have guns in school. I don't want there to be cops in school. I'm positive both only make this problem worse. I am baffled why anyone thinks more guns is a solution to the wrong people having and using guns. Crossfire, anyone? And really, how are police supposed to know who to take down if everyone is pulling a gun in school?

I'm happy to listen to any other solutions from gun owners that does not involve "arm more people".
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 12:32:45 PM by TrudgingAlong »

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #235 on: February 17, 2018, 01:10:03 PM »
A school shooting resulting in injury is happening every week.

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blackknight89

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #236 on: February 17, 2018, 02:10:47 PM »

I don't believe escalation is the answer. Where does it end? Once all students are armed with guns?

Did the alarm bells not sound that society needs to change when people believed it necessary to have security guards at schools?

Turning schools into prisons isn't a solution I'd want for my children. Sounds like a fucking horrible place to go to learn and spend the majority of ones youth.

If you do not believe that escalation is the answer, then what do you believe that the answer is? So far I have seen many suggestions for legislation. Can we agree that criminals or those with criminal intent do not care if they break laws in the process? Murder has been against the law and punishable by death for centuries, yet they still happen.

I said nothing about lowering the age to buy a handgun to 14 and issuing concealed carry permits to teenagers. Generally speaking, you have to be 21 to purchase a handgun legally and I have never heard of civilians trying to concealed carry a rifle (worth noting that any rifle with a barrel under 16 inches is a "SBR" and requires ATF approval to possess).

I also support requiring a concealed carry permit to carry at a school, and would suggest that such a permit process require training that addresses how to respond in a school shooting situation. I also believe that this should be standardized across all 50 states. While we are at it, make it so that permit is legal anywhere that does not have controlled access and armed security (courthouses, airports, etc).

When everyone is armed, there is no violence.

Like in Afghanistan!

I would be willing to bet you have never set foot in Afghanistan. Please explain your comparison further.


I feel like this sums up nicely one of the biggest disconnects between gun supporters and the rest of us. We don't believe that more weapons equals more safety. I remember reading about the Wild West as a kid and thinking how glad I am life isn't like that anymore. It seems like gun supporters want that lifestyle back.

I don't want my kids' teachers to have guns in school. I don't want there to be cops in school. I'm positive both only make this problem worse. I am baffled why anyone thinks more guns is a solution to the wrong people having and using guns. Crossfire, anyone? And really, how are police supposed to know who to take down if everyone is pulling a gun in school?

I'm happy to listen to any other solutions from gun owners that does not involve "arm more people".


I don't think that your comparison between the wild west and any of what I suggested is valid. The extensive combination of alcohol and firearms has nothing in common with trained individuals with firearms that are hidden (concealed carry permit). Worth noting that such a permit does not allow to just take out your gun and wave it around whenever you want (brandishing). If you draw, it had better be to use it.

Can you detail the solutions that you believe would be more effective?

Worth noting that the armed police officer at the school wasn't able to stop the shooting. He never encountered the gunman.

1 armed officer for a school with 3000 students and uncontrolled access. Can't say I'm surprised. The school knew he was dangerous and all they chose to do was tell teachers to not allow him on campus. Perhaps if there was controlled access to the school they might have even had a clue that he was there.

A school shooting resulting in injury is happening every week.

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Congress excels at accomplishing nothing in practically every aspect.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #237 on: February 17, 2018, 08:22:39 PM »
I'm pretty sure I asked gun owners for solutions because I have no idea where a compromise would be. I'm completely okay with banning guns, but realize that won't be happening. So, if gun owners want their access unchanged, they need to FIX. THIS. I have three kids I send to school every day with the thought passion through my mind that maybe they aren't coming home again. I no longer have faith in all these supposedly "responsible gun owners" to be responsible. If they actually were, why don't we see idiot parents put in jail when they leave their weapons unsecured and EUR toddler accidentally kills someone or themselves? Gun owners need to police their own if they want my respect back.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #238 on: February 17, 2018, 10:11:42 PM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.

I think Kris was referring to "toxic masculinity" as a personality feature, not that masculinity, in general, is toxic.

I don't think any reasonable person would file protecting others from violent attack as toxic, masculine or otherwise.

I don't think any reasonable person would file taking a gun and shooting unarmed children as masculine.

All mass shooters are men.

Responding that not all men are mass shooters (a true statement) is just stating that it's not OK to talk about the problem of male mass shooters. Which is to say that we can't talk about the problem of mass shooters. That's pretty unhelpful, in my opinion.

If you are a man and you're not a mass shooter, relax. We're not talking about you.

Cressida

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #239 on: February 17, 2018, 11:42:16 PM »
I think this begins to explain the reason most mass shooters are male.  It has nothing to do with masculinity, it's about being a outcast with no emotional support.

Plenty of girls are outcasts with no emotional support. They don't go out and buy automatic weapons and murder people.

We can start addressing this by changing the culture; improving support and removing unreasonable expectations for young males.  Fix the issue that's disproportionately causing males to commit suicide and the mass shootings will also decline.

Oh right. There are no unreasonable expectations for young female people. No expectations that they will be eternally sexy and sexually available.

What are your thoughts on the fact that most shooters are male?

A disappointed sense of entitlement.

Cressida

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #240 on: February 17, 2018, 11:57:56 PM »
I get the feeling you aren't open to discussion, your remarks are dismissive without analysis.

No dude. I'm pointing out that female people experience the same difficulties that you say male people experience. Your argument (that male people are victimized by society and that's why they commit violent acts) falls down in the face of my evidence.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 11:20:36 AM by Cressida »

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #241 on: February 18, 2018, 12:14:24 AM »
If you do not believe that escalation is the answer, then what do you believe that the answer is? So far I have seen many suggestions for legislation. Can we agree that criminals or those with criminal intent do not care if they break laws in the process? Murder has been against the law and punishable by death for centuries, yet they still happen.

Agreed criminals do not care. But it's not just criminals killing people with guns. Avoidable accidents also contribute to the death toll.

The issue with guns is, as soon as one is drawn there is a 50% chance of injury. If you are injured you have a 50% chance of dying.

The way I see it is escalation leads to more incidents and more deaths. So what's the alternative? Nation wide mass removal of guns, without infriging your rights.

1. Nation wide gun registry. Any gun not registered is confiscated and destroyed.

2. Firearms license. Similar to drivers license. If you fire or are in possession of a gun and do not have a license it is confiscated and destroyed.

3. Higher grade licenses required for semi automatic weapons, assult rifles (pretty much any gun that isn't built for recreational hunting)

4. Secure storage requirements. You can argue the details but at the minimum guns and ammo separately secured when owner not at home, or transported in public.

5. The registered gun owner is liable for the damage caused by their guns. We can argue the extent. This is to ensure all transactions go through the registry, security requirements are followed, and thefys are reported.

6. Mandatory background checks, with right of appeal, and maxum decision time.

7. Generous buy back of guns purchased prior to change in laws coming into effect. All buy back guns are destroyed.

8. Statistical gathering of all gun related incidents focused on improving background check markers and training requirements.

9. Mass education on responsible gun ownership.

The kicker is this has to be nation wide. A single state will be ineffective as criminals will simply source from another state.

As a gun owner, what do you get out of it?

1. No one taking your guns.

2. Knowledge that all other owners are moving towards greater responsibility.

3. Knowledge that police can effectively remove guns from the criminal population.

If you want to put a time limit on these laws, go for it. 50 years (2 generations) should be sufficient to see if it's effective.
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gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #242 on: February 18, 2018, 12:19:10 AM »
Contrary to what the media would have us believe, violent crime has been trending significantly downward for the last quarter century.  We are on the right track.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

Yet gun related deaths continue to increase at 6% per year.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org

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gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #243 on: February 18, 2018, 01:11:54 AM »
The two studies ate measuring different things, so the results will be different.

Your link is tracking crime.

My link is tracking gun related incidents, injury and deaths.
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Rimu05

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #244 on: February 18, 2018, 07:09:21 PM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.

I think Kris was referring to "toxic masculinity" as a personality feature, not that masculinity, in general, is toxic.

I don't think any reasonable person would file protecting others from violent attack as toxic, masculine or otherwise.

I don't think any reasonable person would file taking a gun and shooting unarmed children as masculine.

All mass shooters are men.

Responding that not all men are mass shooters (a true statement) is just stating that it's not OK to talk about the problem of male mass shooters. Which is to say that we can't talk about the problem of mass shooters. That's pretty unhelpful, in my opinion.

If you are a man and you're not a mass shooter, relax. We're not talking about you.

You purposely lead off with a false statement, what do you hope to accomplish?  Most, but not ALL mass shooters are male.
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/amp/wife-san-bernardino-shooting-joins-small-list-women-mass-killers-n473536

If you want to talk about black male gang members, Muslim terrorists, go ahead as well.  Just don't start with 'all Terrorists are Muslim' bullshit.

You're welcome to discuss the fact that most are men.  Skip the one liners that say nothing.  If you have something meaningful to say then say it.  Here are my thoughts:

Our culture expects males to be tough.  As a general example, if a female cries in school for whatever reason, others will support and comfort her.  If a male cries, he is more likely to be chastised, bullied or beat up.  I know females can be nasty in other ways too, but let's agree that there is a difference, and emotional support is generally less available to males.  I think if we treated females the same way maybe they would wind up as mass shooters as well. 

Male teens are also 4x more likely than females to commit suicide.  No one seems to care about this stat, but it seems quite relevant if you want to discuss male vs female mass shooters.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6630a6.htm

Once again it could be our culture doesn't give males enough emotional support.  It can suck to be a teenager, and it seems males feel they are on their own.  I think lack of emotional support for young males during a critical time of mental development contributes to the higher suicide rates among males.  A few of these may go on to become mass shooters instead.

I think this begins to explain a possible reason most mass shooters are male.  It has nothing to do with masculinity, it's more about being a outcast with no emotional support.  We can start addressing this by changing the culture; improving support and removing unreasonable expectations for young males.  Fix the issue that's disproportionately causing males to commit suicide and the mass shootings will also decline.

What are your thoughts on the fact that most shooters are male?

I agree with the emotional support and removing unreasonable expectations for young males aspect but I also want to point out there are a lot of crimes committed by males, that go beyond this. Take child molesters for example. A huge portion are male and while many also come from backgrounds where they were abused, there are many who really don't.

I am just hoping if there is a God, he's keen on burning us all.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #245 on: February 18, 2018, 10:01:29 PM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.

I think Kris was referring to "toxic masculinity" as a personality feature, not that masculinity, in general, is toxic.

I don't think any reasonable person would file protecting others from violent attack as toxic, masculine or otherwise.

I don't think any reasonable person would file taking a gun and shooting unarmed children as masculine.

All mass shooters are men.

Responding that not all men are mass shooters (a true statement) is just stating that it's not OK to talk about the problem of male mass shooters. Which is to say that we can't talk about the problem of mass shooters. That's pretty unhelpful, in my opinion.

If you are a man and you're not a mass shooter, relax. We're not talking about you.

So borderline personality disorder is feminine?  I don't think that's how most people use masculine and feminine.

Cressida

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #246 on: February 19, 2018, 12:14:33 AM »
So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.

I think Kris was referring to "toxic masculinity" as a personality feature, not that masculinity, in general, is toxic.

I don't think any reasonable person would file protecting others from violent attack as toxic, masculine or otherwise.

I don't think any reasonable person would file taking a gun and shooting unarmed children as masculine.

All mass shooters are men.

Responding that not all men are mass shooters (a true statement) is just stating that it's not OK to talk about the problem of male mass shooters. Which is to say that we can't talk about the problem of mass shooters. That's pretty unhelpful, in my opinion.

If you are a man and you're not a mass shooter, relax. We're not talking about you.

So borderline personality disorder is feminine?  I don't think that's how most people use masculine and feminine.

I gather you think that the fact that more women than men are diagnosed with a completely unrelated psychological disorder*, one that doesn't usually lead to violence, is somehow relevant here. I disagree.


*one that is arguably overdiagnosed in general

babybug

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #247 on: February 19, 2018, 01:48:14 AM »


So... maybe if we can't talk about guns, or gun legislation, or anything like that...

We could talk about toxic masculinity?

(Guessing that's a no, too, huh?)

If you really want to slander the three men who gave their lives trying to shield the students from bullets and how toxic their masculinity was, jump right ahead.

I think Kris was referring to "toxic masculinity" as a personality feature, not that masculinity, in general, is toxic.

I don't think any reasonable person would file protecting others from violent attack as toxic, masculine or otherwise.

I don't think any reasonable person would file taking a gun and shooting unarmed children as masculine.

All mass shooters are men.

Responding that not all men are mass shooters (a true statement) is just stating that it's not OK to talk about the problem of male mass shooters. Which is to say that we can't talk about the problem of mass shooters. That's pretty unhelpful, in my opinion.

If you are a man and you're not a mass shooter, relax. We're not talking about you.

You purposely lead off with a false statement, what do you hope to accomplish?  Most, but not ALL mass shooters are male.
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/amp/wife-san-bernardino-shooting-joins-small-list-women-mass-killers-n473536

If you want to talk about black male gang members, Muslim terrorists, go ahead as well.  Just don't start with 'all Terrorists are Muslim' bullshit.

You're welcome to discuss the fact that most are men.  Skip the one liners that say nothing.  If you have something meaningful to say then say it.  Here are my thoughts:

Our culture expects males to be tough.  As a general example, if a female cries in school for whatever reason, others will support and comfort her.  If a male cries, he is more likely to be chastised, bullied or beat up.  I know females can be nasty in other ways too, but let's agree that there is a difference, and emotional support is generally less available to males.  I think if we treated females the same way maybe they would wind up as mass shooters as well. 

Male teens are also 4x more likely than females to commit suicide.  No one seems to care about this stat, but it seems quite relevant if you want to discuss male vs female mass shooters.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6630a6.htm

Once again it could be our culture doesn't give males enough emotional support.  It can suck to be a teenager, and it seems males feel they are on their own.  I think lack of emotional support for young males during a critical time of mental development contributes to the higher suicide rates among males.  A few of these may go on to become mass shooters instead.

I think this begins to explain a possible reason most mass shooters are male.  It has nothing to do with masculinity, it's more about being a outcast with no emotional support.  We can start addressing this by changing the culture; improving support and removing unreasonable expectations for young males.  Fix the issue that's disproportionately causing males to commit suicide and the mass shootings will also decline.

What are your thoughts on the fact that most shooters are male?

Ha! This is funny.

You're quibbling with the statement 'all mass shooters are male' rather than the fact, 'almost all mass shooters are male' ...

Then you follow up with the claims that mass shooters are mostly male because they lack emotional support and that females would be just as violent as males are if they were treated as men are treated?

Nothing to do with innate nature i.e, hello tesstosterone, Y chromosome...


Gender issues asides, how about dealing with the obvious that armed violent criminals tend to commit violent crimes? And address the ideologies and policies that allow this to happen.

 hint: Disarming all law abiding citizens (a la Mexico) is not the way, despite the widespread emotional pleas.

Taking out the criminals however,  might help. (For instance in Chicago almost all gun murders are by previously convicted felons.)

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ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #248 on: February 19, 2018, 08:22:32 AM »
I get the feeling you aren't open to discussion, your remarks are dismissive without analysis.

What do you think about the disparity in suicide rates?  I don't understand why that is being ignored.  Do you think it's relevant?

Cressida has a history of not being open to discussion of these types of things. Numerous articles discuss the EXACT thing you brought up - that young males have a set of cultural expectations that, if they can't match, might lead them to commit these acts of violence.

Cressida isn't wrong that there are cultural expectations of women too, but for the sake of a discussion on school shootings, the expectations on them don't set of a mental chain of events that might culminate in something like this. 

I suspect that any effort to point on that men need some societal attention as well seems to infuriate the likes of cressida because it might distract from, and counter the narrative of, Nth wave feminism's goals.

RetiredAt63

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #249 on: February 19, 2018, 10:02:54 AM »
Suicide is a bit OT, but  . . . . My understanding about suicide rates is that men are more likely to use guns (and hanging!) and women are more likely to use pills, which means more men are successful and more women are unsuccessful.  What would be more useful in suicide discussions is the rate of attempted suicides, and how survivors look back on their suicide attempts.  It is hard to be relieved you didn't commit suicide after all since your life has improved, if you were successful.

This is an interesting article
http://statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-624-x/2012001/article/11696-eng.htm
The measure of civilization is how people treat one another.

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