Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 62566 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #500 on: March 01, 2018, 08:04:51 AM »
I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.

Walmart is the nation's top retailer, practically all Americans shop there.  Why would you think their customers are more conservative - doesn't everyone want a good value?

No one in my circle of friends shops there, because of the way they treat employees. And the way their omnipresence in snall-town America has helped to decimate small businesses in them.

Your circle of friends is pretty isolated from society as a whole.  95% of Americans shop at Walmart, and they save over $2k annually on average due to the lower prices.  Walmart employs a lot of people that would otherwise have difficulty finding employment.  Their employment practices have shown massive progress over the years as well.

The elitist liberal attitude hurts your credibility.  Your circle of friends doesn't constitute a large enough sample group to say mainly conservatives shop Walmart.  When you surround yourself with people that share the same ideology, it can lead to a warped sense of reality.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brandindex/2012/06/21/republican-love-for-walmart-unmatched-among-democrat-consumers/
https://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/14/shopping-at-wal-mart-you-might-be-a-republican.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnzogby/2015/08/14/the-dramatic-democratization-of-the-weekly-wal-mart-shopper/#50604be6a3ca
http://fortune.com/2016/06/06/fortune-500-conservatives-liberals-love-hate/

It would appear that conservative preference to Wal-Mart is pretty well documented.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #501 on: March 01, 2018, 08:12:05 AM »
If you look at the timeline in this article, you see the frequency picking up in 1999. Right in the middle of the AWB. Some years the frequency wanes, some years it comes back.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.5389d997ae2f

There is a clear proliferation after 2004.  To ignore it is to be willfully ignorant.

According to your link, 175 people died in mass shootings between 1994-2004, an average of 17.5 per year (the Washington Post is apparently using 4+ fatalities as their definition for a "mass shooting" whereas Klarevas used 6+).

-2005: 27 deaths
-2006: 26 deaths
-2007: 54 deaths
-2008: 29 deaths
-2009: 39 deaths
-2010: 22 deaths
-2011: 25 deaths
-2012: 72 deaths
-2013: 36 deaths
-2014: 16 deaths (the one year below the '94-'04 average)
-2015: 47 deaths
-2016: 67 deaths
-2017: 117 deaths
-2018: 22 deaths in 2 months

So in every year but one the number of deaths related to mass shootings was more (and often far more) than the 10-year average of 1994-2004 according to the link you provided.

If you say the assault weapons ban was a failure (if you define success as limiting the number of gun deaths related to mass shootings) you're being intellectually dishonest.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 08:13:48 AM by DarkandStormy »
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ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #502 on: March 01, 2018, 08:26:12 AM »
If you look at the timeline in this article, you see the frequency picking up in 1999. Right in the middle of the AWB. Some years the frequency
 wanes, some years it comes back.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.5389d997ae2f

There is a clear proliferation after 2004.  To ignore it is to be willfully ignorant.

According to your link, 175 people died in mass shootings between 1994-2004, an average of 17.5 per year (the Washington Post is apparently using 4+ fatalities as their definition for a "mass shooting" whereas Klarevas used 6+).

-2005: 27 deaths
-2006: 26 deaths
-2007: 54 deaths
-2008: 29 deaths
-2009: 39 deaths
-2010: 22 deaths
-2011: 25 deaths
-2012: 72 deaths
-2013: 36 deaths
-2014: 16 deaths (the one year below the '94-'04 average)
-2015: 47 deaths
-2016: 67 deaths
-2017: 117 deaths
-2018: 22 deaths in 2 months

So in every year but one the number of deaths related to mass shootings was more (and often far more) than the 10-year average of 1994-2004 according to the link you provided.

If you say the assault weapons ban was a failure (if you define success as limiting the number of gun deaths related to mass shootings) you're being intellectually dishonest.

I can see a clear trend beginning in 1999 that continued upward until the present day. That the incidence of mass shootings continued to increase after the AWB, is consistent with the AWB not being a prime factor in mass shooting deaths. it ALSO needs to be considered that than overall gun violence continue to drop after the AWB expired.

 To ignore that the trend started almost exactly in the middle of the AWB is quite intellectually dishonest and willfully ignorant as well. It points quite clearly that there are other driving factors to mass shootings.

How can you ALSO ignore that most mass shootings were committed with other types of guns?



asiljoy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #503 on: March 01, 2018, 08:31:30 AM »
Found this a bit disturbing:

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time,” Trump said at a meeting with lawmakers on school safety and gun violence.

“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/376097-trump-take-the-guns-first-go-through-due-process-second


I'm comfortable with some gun control measures being put into place but I'm concerned that an emotional response will, as seen post 9/11, result in the this generation's PATRIOT Act with people's rights being trampled.

NRA: Do nothing (maybe expand background checks?)

Trump: Trample the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments and ban bump stocks

The Left/The kids: Some or all of - Raise age to buy to 21, ban bump stocks, ban assault weapons, lower/set magazine maximum (ban high-capacity magazines), longer wait period, universal background checks for gun and ammo buyers, ban semi-automatic weapons, ban sales to all violent criminals including domestic abusers

My hunch is that this is just another misdirection. Get everyone all hot and bothered and then do nothing/pretend it never happened. Interesting way to 'win' the news cycle I guess.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #504 on: March 01, 2018, 08:37:49 AM »
I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.

Walmart is the nation's top retailer, practically all Americans shop there.  Why would you think their customers are more conservative - doesn't everyone want a good value?

No one in my circle of friends shops there, because of the way they treat employees. And the way their omnipresence in snall-town America has helped to decimate small businesses in them.

Your circle of friends is pretty isolated from society as a whole.  95% of Americans shop at Walmart, and they save over $2k annually on average due to the lower prices.  Walmart employs a lot of people that would otherwise have difficulty finding employment.  Their employment practices have shown massive progress over the years as well.

The elitist liberal attitude hurts your credibility.  Your circle of friends doesn't constitute a large enough sample group to say mainly conservatives shop Walmart.  When you surround yourself with people that share the same ideology, it can lead to a warped sense of reality.

Look, dude. You don't need to insult me. You asked me a specific question -- basically, doesn't everyone shop at Walmart? I gave you a specific answer: My circle of friends does not. This is why.

I have friends and associates from the entire gamut of the political spectrum. I grew up in Walmart country. I left because small towns were dying. I now live in the city. Most of my relatives are Trump voters. That doesn't make me "elitist," "isolated," or "warped".

It does, however, make you insulting and condescending.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #505 on: March 01, 2018, 08:45:53 AM »
I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.

Walmart is the nation's top retailer, practically all Americans shop there.  Why would you think their customers are more conservative - doesn't everyone want a good value?

No one in my circle of friends shops there, because of the way they treat employees. And the way their omnipresence in snall-town America has helped to decimate small businesses in them.

Your circle of friends is pretty isolated from society as a whole.  95% of Americans shop at Walmart, and they save over $2k annually on average due to the lower prices.  Walmart employs a lot of people that would otherwise have difficulty finding employment.  Their employment practices have shown massive progress over the years as well.

The elitist liberal attitude hurts your credibility.  Your circle of friends doesn't constitute a large enough sample group to say mainly conservatives shop Walmart.  When you surround yourself with people that share the same ideology, it can lead to a warped sense of reality.

95% of Americans spent money at Walmart or through the Walmart website. That's a bit different than saying someone shops at Walmart which to me implies it is one of my regular stores, admittedly there isn't a strict definition. By that same metric 89% of Americans spent money at McDonald's but we're not all regulars. That 89% would include me because I got a single dollar menu hamburger back in December but that was the only money I spent at McDonald's all year.

A more accurate measure would be number of dollars spent by each demographic.


fuzzy math

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #506 on: March 01, 2018, 08:56:04 AM »
I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.

Walmart is the nation's top retailer, practically all Americans shop there.  Why would you think their customers are more conservative - doesn't everyone want a good value?

No one in my circle of friends shops there, because of the way they treat employees. And the way their omnipresence in snall-town America has helped to decimate small businesses in them.

Your circle of friends is pretty isolated from society as a whole.  95% of Americans shop at Walmart, and they save over $2k annually on average due to the lower prices.  Walmart employs a lot of people that would otherwise have difficulty finding employment.  Their employment practices have shown massive progress over the years as well.

The elitist liberal attitude hurts your credibility.  Your circle of friends doesn't constitute a large enough sample group to say mainly conservatives shop Walmart.  When you surround yourself with people that share the same ideology, it can lead to a warped sense of reality.

95% of Americans spent money at Walmart or through the Walmart website. That's a bit different than saying someone shops at Walmart which to me implies it is one of my regular stores, admittedly there isn't a strict definition. By that same metric 89% of Americans spent money at McDonald's but we're not all regulars. That 89% would include me because I got a single dollar menu hamburger back in December but that was the only money I spent at McDonald's all year.

A more accurate measure would be number of dollars spent by each demographic.
Word.

Bender perhaps your bias does not allow you to understand the shopping habits of liberals. Have you ever considered that instead of assuming things about others? How does shopping at Target make people uninformed?

In my house, Walmart is the absolute last place we will shop (amongst 6 other grocery stores, Target and other mass retailers). My husband will occasionally pick up an item there if it's inconvenient to go elsewhere, but then we generally have a discussion about it and how to avoid it in the future. If a single purchase every 2-3 months makes us the Wal Mart shoppers you are referencing, then so be it but do not confused that with intent. Similarly if we are travelling, we do not always have the much luck in finding a different store in small towns.

A friend whose husband works at 3M says that Walmart has a special lower quality line of products that 3M manufactures for them. It leads to waste and planned obsolescence. I will not support those business practices.

Walmart is not the cheapest place either. I actually went there recently to price check items and found them to be significantly more expensive than Aldi.

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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #507 on: March 01, 2018, 09:31:48 AM »
Look, dude, I'm trying to be objective.  I have never owned a gun, but have gone target shooting several times.  I am not affiliated with either party, and voted for a 3rd party candidate in the last presidential election.  Aren't I the kind of voter you want to convince rather than alienate?

I see nonsense coming from both sides.  Statistics are easily manipulated by both sides and selected to support their position.  An objective, unemotional look at data from multiple sources, and an understanding of the bias from each source is needed.



One of the articles you linked showed that liberals prefer target over Walmart.  This just plays into their uninformed sense of reality.

When you claim that liberals have "an uninformed sense of reality", this is you trying to be objective and unemotional?  From what I've seen, your posts and wording have a heavy republican bias.

Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #508 on: March 01, 2018, 09:41:08 AM »
Yeah, we aren't fans of WM and generally avoid it. DW never goes there. I go maybe once or twice a year. Big alternatives are drying up in many communities leaving WM, local businesses and online options. That is the case for a town a friend lives in.

In our town we have plenty of alternative shopping options.

The story about 3M: it was pointed out to me as well that discount stores have reduced quality versions of goods. A fellow told me to flip over my lawnmower and look at the crankshaft that the blade was mounted on. A quality engine would have a thick crankshaft. The same brand also might sell a thinner, weaker version to a discount store. Sure enough, I started paying attention and there were indeed examples of both. Naturally I owned the cheaper example. I have heard the same about tires.

Buyer beware. I avoid brands who play these kinds of games if I see evidence of cost cutting. Build a quality product or else.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #509 on: March 01, 2018, 09:44:41 AM »
Look, dude, I'm trying to be objective.  I have never owned a gun, but have gone target shooting several times.  I am not affiliated with either party, and voted for a 3rd party candidate in the last presidential election.  Aren't I the kind of voter you want to convince rather than alienate?

I see nonsense coming from both sides.  Statistics are easily manipulated by both sides and selected to support their position.  An objective, unemotional look at data from multiple sources, and an understanding of the bias from each source is needed.

Look, dude. I own three firearms, and am licensed to carry in my state. We're talking about Walmart here. How am I alienating YOU, when you are the one calling me insulting names?

I see far more emotion in your need to label me as isolated, elitist, and warped. I find it interesting how often people think they are objective and unemotional when their words show differently.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #510 on: March 01, 2018, 10:02:39 AM »
Look, dude. I own three firearms, and am licensed to carry in my state. We're talking about Walmart here. How am I alienating YOU, when you are the one calling me insulting names?

Ok my head just exploded.

You live in a city, don't shop at Walmart, own 3 firearms and licensed to carry.

This is fascinating and I want to know more.  I would bet if we talked in person we would agree on many things.  I'm off to read more posts!

You mean I'm not as isolated, elitist and warped as you originally assumed? ;)
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

jrhampt

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #511 on: March 01, 2018, 10:49:00 AM »
My household also doesn’t typically shop at Wal-Mart and possesses multiple firearms :-)

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #512 on: March 01, 2018, 10:55:45 AM »
I can see a clear trend beginning in 1999 that continued upward until the present day. That the incidence of mass shootings continued to increase after the AWB, is consistent with the AWB not being a prime factor in mass shooting deaths. it ALSO needs to be considered that than overall gun violence continue to drop after the AWB expired.

 To ignore that the trend started almost exactly in the middle of the AWB is quite intellectually dishonest and willfully ignorant as well. It points quite clearly that there are other driving factors to mass shootings.

How can you ALSO ignore that most mass shootings were committed with other types of guns?

1) You can "see a clear trend" but have provided nothing other than an article with an interactive graph.  I have provided studies and books by experts.

Quote
Compared with the 10-year period before the ban, the number of gun massacres during the ban period fell by 37 percent, and the number of people dying from gun massacres fell by 43 percent. But after the ban lapsed in 2004, the numbers shot up again — an astonishing 183 percent increase in massacres and a 239 percent increase in massacre deaths.

Klarevas says that the key provision of the assault weapons bill was a ban on high-capacity magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds. “We have found that when large capacity mags are regulated, you get drastic drops in both the incidence of gun massacres and the fatality rate of gun massacres.”

You cannot refute this point other than "Well, I see a trend."

2) Yes, not every mass shooting uses an assault weapon or bump stock.  But those make mass shootings much more likely to be worse.  That overall gun deaths are down but mass shootings are going up bears that point out.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/views-on-gun-policy/

Quote
A number of surveys show that bans on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines are popular among the general public. A 2017 Pew Research Center poll found that 68 percent of adults favor banning assault weapons, and 65 percent support a ban on high-capacity magazines.

More strikingly, substantial numbers of gun owners supported the measures as well: 48 percent of gun owners in that poll said they would support a ban on assault style weapons, and 44 percent said they favored a ban on high-capacity magazines.

https://psmag.com/news/assault-weapons-ban-decreases-school-shooting-deaths

Quote
"Assault weapons bans reduced the number of school shooting victims by 54.4 percent," Mark Gius of Quinnipiac University writes in the journal Applied Economics Letters. "All other gun-control laws—concealed-carry laws, private-sale background checks, and federal dealer background checks—had no statistically significant effect on school shootings."

Quote
In a 2014 study that analyzed data covering the years 1982 to 2011, he found "both state and federal assault weapon bans have statistically significant and negative effects on mass shooting fatalities."

In addition, he found the federal ban, which was in place from 1994 to 2004, was linked to fewer injuries from mass shootings.

And here, we see the frequency of mass shootings (four or more deaths) slowed during the 1994-2004 time frame.



And again, on a per year basis:



You haven't provided any evidence beyond "seeing a trend" that the assault weapons ban didn't have an effect in bringing down the number of mass shootings in this country.
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Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #513 on: March 01, 2018, 12:35:45 PM »
Regardless of anyone's stance on the gun debate, this is a problem

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-guns-boycott-delta-air/georgia-lawmaker-threatens-to-kill-delta-state-tax-breaks-over-nra-stance-idUSKCN1GA2UV

Quote
“I will kill any tax legislation that benefits @Delta unless the company changes its position and fully reinstates its relationship with @NRA,”

Clearly the US has a problem with corporations influencing politics and vice versa but normally it's not openly stated on Twitter. The lieutenant governor of Georgia is offering the possibility of monetary reward to a corporation for their compliance in a political debate. I'm having trouble finding more information on the tax break for jet fuel and why it was proposed in the first place and also whether it actually had a shot at passing before or after he took this stance on Twitter, but I really don't think that enters into it.

If this is deemed acceptable, where are we headed?


GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #514 on: March 01, 2018, 01:05:23 PM »
You forgot the second half of his comment “Corporations cannot attack conservatives and expect us not to fight back.”


I didn't realize that the NRA represented all conservatives.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #515 on: March 01, 2018, 01:23:19 PM »
You forgot the second half of his comment “Corporations cannot attack conservatives and expect us not to fight back.”


I didn't realize that the NRA represented all conservatives.

More of the my team vs. your team mindset

EricL

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #516 on: March 01, 2018, 03:17:29 PM »
You forgot the second half of his comment “Corporations cannot attack conservatives and expect us not to fight back.”


I didn't realize that the NRA represented all conservatives.

They don’t.  And less now than ever with the NRA’s strident tinfoil hat spokeswoman.  Gun owners are slowly turning to or at least diversifying into lesser known gun rights organizations.  Some of which are reputedly more effective than the NRA yet take a more reasonable stance in many respects. 
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Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #517 on: March 01, 2018, 03:31:10 PM »
You forgot the second half of his comment “Corporations cannot attack conservatives and expect us not to fight back.”


I didn't realize that the NRA represented all conservatives.

They don’t.  And less now than ever with the NRA’s strident tinfoil hat spokeswoman.  Gun owners are slowly turning to or at least diversifying into lesser known gun rights organizations.  Some of which are reputedly more effective than the NRA yet take a more reasonable stance in many respects.

Which would be freaking awesome. As a gun owner, I will never, ever support the NRA. But a reasonable gun organization that ACTUALLY focused on gun safety, training, and knowledge? Very possibly.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #518 on: March 02, 2018, 07:48:07 AM »

You haven't provided any evidence beyond "seeing a trend" that the assault weapons ban didn't have an effect in bringing down the number of mass shootings in this country.

I provided a link that clearly showed that mass shootings began spiking in the middle of the AWB... when assault weapons should have been least available. Ergo, assault weapon availability does not explain why mass shootings became more and more common then.

The link also shows that assault weapons are used in a very small portion of MASS SHOOTINGS.

The datacharts you have provided is designed to remove resolution to support a pre-determined hypothisis.

If you can't grasp that a weak correlation != causation,
that most mass shootings, including some of the most deadly, are perpetrated with other types of weapons
And that mass shootings because more and more common during the awb, and that therefore, an AWB will not be effective in preventing mass shootings, then you're in over your head and need to parrot other people's data less.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #519 on: March 02, 2018, 09:09:10 AM »

You haven't provided any evidence beyond "seeing a trend" that the assault weapons ban didn't have an effect in bringing down the number of mass shootings in this country.

I provided a link that clearly showed that mass shootings began spiking in the middle of the AWB... when assault weapons should have been least available. Ergo, assault weapon availability does not explain why mass shootings became more and more common then.

The link also shows that assault weapons are used in a very small portion of MASS SHOOTINGS.

The datacharts you have provided is designed to remove resolution to support a pre-determined hypothisis.

If you can't grasp that a weak correlation != causation,
that most mass shootings, including some of the most deadly, are perpetrated with other types of weapons
And that mass shootings because more and more common during the awb, and that therefore, an AWB will not be effective in preventing mass shootings, then you're in over your head and need to parrot other people's data less.

You have provided precisely zero evidence-backed support or conclusions from experts supporting your position.

I've done the opposite.

Good luck.
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Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #520 on: March 02, 2018, 09:13:41 AM »
Just saw another headline. School shooting at Central Michigan University. 2 dead so far, no shooter captured yet.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #521 on: March 02, 2018, 09:58:25 AM »
Just saw another headline. School shooting at Central Michigan University. 2 dead so far, no shooter captured yet.

Only 2 dead?  How pedestrian.  Call me back the next time we're up into more respectable double digits and people start to pretend to care again.  It'll probably only be a couple weeks to wait.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 10:03:29 AM by GuitarStv »

bacchi

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #522 on: March 02, 2018, 11:22:40 AM »
This guy forgot to put his white hat on that morning.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/02/man-disarms-would-be-church-shooter-gets-shot-by-police.html

Quote
A man disarmed a would-be hostage shooter at a church in Amarillo, Texas, but when officers arrived, he was shot twice [by the police].


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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #523 on: March 02, 2018, 11:27:24 AM »
This guy forgot to put his white hat on that morning.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/02/man-disarms-would-be-church-shooter-gets-shot-by-police.html

Quote
A man disarmed a would-be hostage shooter at a church in Amarillo, Texas, but when officers arrived, he was shot twice [by the police].

One of the big points in the training modules we do at work for responding to shooters is to throw the gun in a garbage can, or otherwise contain it so that nobody is holding it.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #524 on: March 02, 2018, 11:44:08 AM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates

Quote
A brief, partial respite from gun injuries is expected when some 80,000 gun owners descend on Dallas for the annual National Rifle Association convention. That’s because the convention has historically coincided with a temporary — and dramatic — drop in gun-related injuries, according to a new analysis published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

To come to that conclusion, researchers from Harvard Medical School and Columbia University used an insurance database of nearly 76 million claims to tally emergency department visits and hospitalizations related to firearm injuries on NRA convention dates, and during identical control days in the three weeks before and three weeks after the meeting, from 2007 through 2015.

They then estimated the rates of firearm injuries for both the NRA convention dates and the control dates, hoping to test common assumptions: that gun injuries often occur among inexperienced users, and that gun safety increases with experience and training. Groups that oppose gun control, like the NRA, often assert that education is key to keeping injury rates down — and that guns are totally safe when handled by people who know how to use them.

If that were the case, the researchers expected that the gun injury rate would hold stable or even rise during NRA conventions, when thousands of very experienced and heavy gun users were holed up in meetings.

Instead, they found the opposite seemed to be true: The gun injury rate actually fell by nearly 20 percent nationwide during NRA conventions. More precisely, on convention dates, the national gun injury rate was 1.2 per 100,000 — compared to 1.5 per 100,000 during the control dates. In the states hosting the conventions, the drop was even more dramatic — from 1.9 to 0.7 per 100,000.

Whoops!
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NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #525 on: March 02, 2018, 11:53:15 AM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates
Whoops!

Guns aren't allowed at the NRA convention. Presumably the people at the convention left their guns at home, no?
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/digging-out-of-a-hole/

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #526 on: March 02, 2018, 11:57:53 AM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates
Whoops!

Guns aren't allowed at the NRA convention. Presumably the people at the convention left their guns at home, no?

It's almost like . . . the people who own guns cause problems with them.

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #527 on: March 02, 2018, 12:02:56 PM »

You haven't provided any evidence beyond "seeing a trend" that the assault weapons ban didn't have an effect in bringing down the number of mass shootings in this country.

I provided a link that clearly showed that mass shootings began spiking in the middle of the AWB... when assault weapons should have been least available. Ergo, assault weapon availability does not explain why mass shootings became more and more common then.

The link also shows that assault weapons are used in a very small portion of MASS SHOOTINGS.

The datacharts you have provided is designed to remove resolution to support a pre-determined hypothisis.

If you can't grasp that a weak correlation != causation,
that most mass shootings, including some of the most deadly, are perpetrated with other types of weapons
And that mass shootings because more and more common during the awb, and that therefore, an AWB will not be effective in preventing mass shootings, then you're in over your head and need to parrot other people's data less.

You have provided precisely zero evidence-backed support or conclusions from experts supporting your position.

I've done the opposite.

Good luck.

You're funny. "An expert said it so I don't have to think or question his conclusions even when presented with a different take on more highly resolved data la la la la"

I posted a link to a credible source, then performed very straight forward analysis of said data. I didn't have to lump decades of data together to skew an average, or come up with strange parsing of data like "days between incidents" to force the data to confirm my conclusion.

You have done nothing to refute it or explain how it fits into your narrative. (because it doesn't, because your hypothesis is void.)

To be perfectly clear, I am sure an AWB would stop 1 or two guys from using an assault weapon in a mass shooting... because he'd probably just use a shotgun or some other weapon to do it. (because they use something besides an assault weapon most of the time anyway.) There would be no statistically detectable differnce in the incidence or deadliness of shootings.

Anyway, good luck to you as well.


GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #528 on: March 02, 2018, 12:10:04 PM »
To be perfectly clear, I am sure an AWB would stop 1 or two guys from using an assault weapon in a mass shooting... because he'd probably just use a shotgun or some other weapon to do it. (because they use something besides an assault weapon most of the time anyway.) There would be no statistically detectable differnce in the incidence or deadliness of shootings.

I'm not a gun expert, but:

- A folding stock makes it easier to maneuver a gun in close quarters
- A pistol grip makes it easier to aim a weapon
- A flash suppressor makes it harder to locate a shooter
- A barrel shroud makes it easier to handle and aim a weapon being fired continuously

If there's nothing being banned that increases ease of use / deadliness of a weapon . . . then why does banning it matter to someone with an interest in guns?

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #529 on: March 02, 2018, 12:12:53 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates

Quote
A brief, partial respite from gun injuries is expected when some 80,000 gun owners descend on Dallas for the annual National Rifle Association convention. That’s because the convention has historically coincided with a temporary — and dramatic — drop in gun-related injuries, according to a new analysis published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

To come to that conclusion, researchers from Harvard Medical School and Columbia University used an insurance database of nearly 76 million claims to tally emergency department visits and hospitalizations related to firearm injuries on NRA convention dates, and during identical control days in the three weeks before and three weeks after the meeting, from 2007 through 2015.

They then estimated the rates of firearm injuries for both the NRA convention dates and the control dates, hoping to test common assumptions: that gun injuries often occur among inexperienced users, and that gun safety increases with experience and training. Groups that oppose gun control, like the NRA, often assert that education is key to keeping injury rates down — and that guns are totally safe when handled by people who know how to use them.

If that were the case, the researchers expected that the gun injury rate would hold stable or even rise during NRA conventions, when thousands of very experienced and heavy gun users were holed up in meetings.

Instead, they found the opposite seemed to be true: The gun injury rate actually fell by nearly 20 percent nationwide during NRA conventions. More precisely, on convention dates, the national gun injury rate was 1.2 per 100,000 — compared to 1.5 per 100,000 during the control dates. In the states hosting the conventions, the drop was even more dramatic — from 1.9 to 0.7 per 100,000.

Whoops!

It doesn't take much of a back of the envelope calculation to realize they've screwed up the data somehow (or maybe more likely, the reporter completely screwed up the reporting).  With a 300M population, you're talking about avoiding around 900 firearm injuries.  That'd be roughly one of out every 89 convention participants who otherwise would have been a contributor to or victim of a firearm related incident.  That's just not plausible. 

Maybe that .3 per 100,000 is really over the entire 9 year period or something but it seems pretty clear that what they are reporting cannot be right. 

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #530 on: March 02, 2018, 12:14:46 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates
Whoops!

Guns aren't allowed at the NRA convention. Presumably the people at the convention left their guns at home, no?

It's almost like . . . the people who own guns cause problems with them.

That's a truism that doesn't give us anything meaningful to work with. 100% of knife injuries are caused by people who have knives!  100% of drunk driving injuries are cause by people who drive drunk!
Its still an interesting correllation. Strange. I cant' beleive 80,000 of 100+ million gun users could move the needle like that, even if 100% of the attendees were irresponsible users. (they're like, .08% of gun owners)

What else is happening in early may?

"And Jena, the NEJM study author, said it’s possible the 20 percent average estimated reduction is too high. In the study, their confidence interval ranged widely, from 6.7 to 34 percent, meaning the decline in gun injuries could be smaller or larger than 20 percent — but he noted that it always trended in the direction of a decline. "


GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #531 on: March 02, 2018, 12:19:47 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates

Quote
A brief, partial respite from gun injuries is expected when some 80,000 gun owners descend on Dallas for the annual National Rifle Association convention. That’s because the convention has historically coincided with a temporary — and dramatic — drop in gun-related injuries, according to a new analysis published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

To come to that conclusion, researchers from Harvard Medical School and Columbia University used an insurance database of nearly 76 million claims to tally emergency department visits and hospitalizations related to firearm injuries on NRA convention dates, and during identical control days in the three weeks before and three weeks after the meeting, from 2007 through 2015.

They then estimated the rates of firearm injuries for both the NRA convention dates and the control dates, hoping to test common assumptions: that gun injuries often occur among inexperienced users, and that gun safety increases with experience and training. Groups that oppose gun control, like the NRA, often assert that education is key to keeping injury rates down — and that guns are totally safe when handled by people who know how to use them.

If that were the case, the researchers expected that the gun injury rate would hold stable or even rise during NRA conventions, when thousands of very experienced and heavy gun users were holed up in meetings.

Instead, they found the opposite seemed to be true: The gun injury rate actually fell by nearly 20 percent nationwide during NRA conventions. More precisely, on convention dates, the national gun injury rate was 1.2 per 100,000 — compared to 1.5 per 100,000 during the control dates. In the states hosting the conventions, the drop was even more dramatic — from 1.9 to 0.7 per 100,000.

Whoops!

It doesn't take much of a back of the envelope calculation to realize they've screwed up the data somehow (or maybe more likely, the reporter completely screwed up the reporting).  With a 300M population, you're talking about avoiding around 900 firearm injuries.  That'd be roughly one of out every 89 convention participants who otherwise would have been a contributor to or victim of a firearm related incident.  That's just not plausible. 

Maybe that .3 per 100,000 is really over the entire 9 year period or something but it seems pretty clear that what they are reporting cannot be right.

The study is here:  http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1712773.  Full appendix here: http://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMc1712773/suppl_file/nejmc1712773_appendix.pdf.  Please feel free to check for inconsistency.

Part of the appendix does address your concerns though:
Quote
Our study was observational and therefore we cannot conclude that reductions in
population-level firearm injuries observed during dates of NRA annual meetings were
directly due to reductions in overall firearm use by gun owners during these meetings.
Several factors support this hypothesis, however. First, NRA annual meetings are large
and attract attendees from across the U.S., making it plausible that such an effect might
be identifiable in large, national data. In 2017, for instance, 81,000 NRA members
attended the NRA annual meeting, with 60% of those attending traveling from more than
200 miles away.13 Importantly, reductions in firearm injuries during NRA annual meeting
dates need not necessarily stem from gun owners themselves attending NRA conventions.
9
For instance, if some venues of firearm use (e.g., ranges or hunting grounds) are closed
during dates of NRA annual meetings, reductions in overall firearm injuries during
meeting dates could also be observed. Similarly, if individuals are more likely to engage
in recreational firearm use in groups, then the absence of some group members due to
NRA meeting attendance may reduce the likelihood of remaining group members to use
firearms during the dates of NRA meetings. Second, we accounted for seasonal factors
that might spuriously lead to lower firearm injury rates on the specific dates of NRA
annual meetings. Third, reductions in firearm injuries during dates of NRA annual
meetings were only observed among men, which would be expected given that men
account for nearly 85% of meeting attendees.13 Fourth, reductions in firearm injuries
during dates of NRA annual meetings were largest in areas where gun ownership is
highest. If attendees of NRA annual meetings disproportionately live in areas with high
gun ownership, we would expect reductions in firearm injuries during dates of NRA
annual meetings to be largest in these areas if meeting attendance leads to a transient
reduction in firearm use locally. Fifth, we demonstrated that overall reductions in firearm
injury rates during NRA annual meeting dates were larger for individuals residing in the
same state where the annual convention was held in a given year. If individuals are more
likely to attend NRA annual meetings when meetings are closer to home, we would
expect larger reductions in firearm injuries during dates of meetings that occur locally.
Sixth, an implication of our findings is that even among experienced gun owners – who
might be more likely to attend NRA annual conventions – the rate of firearm injury
directly relates to the amount of firearm use. This is consistent with prior evidence that
firearm training is inconsistently received by firearm owners and that the length of
firearm training or how recently it was conducted bears little relationship with firearm
storage practices, one measure of firearm safety

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #532 on: March 02, 2018, 12:35:06 PM »
To be perfectly clear, I am sure an AWB would stop 1 or two guys from using an assault weapon in a mass shooting... because he'd probably just use a shotgun or some other weapon to do it. (because they use something besides an assault weapon most of the time anyway.) There would be no statistically detectable differnce in the incidence or deadliness of shootings.

Anyway, good luck to you as well.

And again, ALL analysis (that I can find...again feel free to cite an actual study showing the opposite) from prior to 1994, 1994-2004, and in the years after bear out the exact opposite of what you are saying.
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Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #533 on: March 02, 2018, 12:54:58 PM »
I'm not a gun expert, but:

- A folding stock makes it easier to maneuver a gun in close quarters
- A pistol grip makes it easier to aim a weapon
- A flash suppressor makes it harder to locate a shooter
- A barrel shroud makes it easier to handle and aim a weapon being fired continuously

No.

A folding stock may make it easier to maneuver, but you know what’s even easier to maneuver?  A pistol.

If a pistol grip makes it easier to aim a weapon, why do almost all hunting and long range rifles not have one?

A flash suppressor directs the flash to the sides, as opposed to up; it merely makes it so the flash doesn’t blind the shooter

A barrel shroud just makes it less likely the shooter will burn his hand on a barrel since most ARs don’t have a full length stock.

It’s all literally just style and cosmetics. It’s like claiming a 2dr car is faster than a 4dr car simply for having less doors. Not the way it works.
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Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #534 on: March 02, 2018, 12:59:26 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates

Quote
A brief, partial respite from gun injuries is expected when some 80,000 gun owners descend on Dallas for the annual National Rifle Association convention. That’s because the convention has historically coincided with a temporary — and dramatic — drop in gun-related injuries, according to a new analysis published in the New England Journal of Medicine.

To come to that conclusion, researchers from Harvard Medical School and Columbia University used an insurance database of nearly 76 million claims to tally emergency department visits and hospitalizations related to firearm injuries on NRA convention dates, and during identical control days in the three weeks before and three weeks after the meeting, from 2007 through 2015.

They then estimated the rates of firearm injuries for both the NRA convention dates and the control dates, hoping to test common assumptions: that gun injuries often occur among inexperienced users, and that gun safety increases with experience and training. Groups that oppose gun control, like the NRA, often assert that education is key to keeping injury rates down — and that guns are totally safe when handled by people who know how to use them.

If that were the case, the researchers expected that the gun injury rate would hold stable or even rise during NRA conventions, when thousands of very experienced and heavy gun users were holed up in meetings.

Instead, they found the opposite seemed to be true: The gun injury rate actually fell by nearly 20 percent nationwide during NRA conventions. More precisely, on convention dates, the national gun injury rate was 1.2 per 100,000 — compared to 1.5 per 100,000 during the control dates. In the states hosting the conventions, the drop was even more dramatic — from 1.9 to 0.7 per 100,000.

Whoops!

It doesn't take much of a back of the envelope calculation to realize they've screwed up the data somehow (or maybe more likely, the reporter completely screwed up the reporting).  With a 300M population, you're talking about avoiding around 900 firearm injuries.  That'd be roughly one of out every 89 convention participants who otherwise would have been a contributor to or victim of a firearm related incident.  That's just not plausible. 

Maybe that .3 per 100,000 is really over the entire 9 year period or something but it seems pretty clear that what they are reporting cannot be right.

The study is here:  http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc1712773.  Full appendix here: http://www.nejm.org/doi/suppl/10.1056/NEJMc1712773/suppl_file/nejmc1712773_appendix.pdf.  Please feel free to check for inconsistency.

Part of the appendix does address your concerns though:
Quote
Our study was observational and therefore we cannot conclude that reductions in
population-level firearm injuries observed during dates of NRA annual meetings were
directly due to reductions in overall firearm use by gun owners during these meetings.
Several factors support this hypothesis, however. First, NRA annual meetings are large
and attract attendees from across the U.S., making it plausible that such an effect might
be identifiable in large, national data. In 2017, for instance, 81,000 NRA members
attended the NRA annual meeting, with 60% of those attending traveling from more than
200 miles away.13 Importantly, reductions in firearm injuries during NRA annual meeting
dates need not necessarily stem from gun owners themselves attending NRA conventions.
9
For instance, if some venues of firearm use (e.g., ranges or hunting grounds) are closed
during dates of NRA annual meetings, reductions in overall firearm injuries during
meeting dates could also be observed. Similarly, if individuals are more likely to engage
in recreational firearm use in groups, then the absence of some group members due to
NRA meeting attendance may reduce the likelihood of remaining group members to use
firearms during the dates of NRA meetings. Second, we accounted for seasonal factors
that might spuriously lead to lower firearm injury rates on the specific dates of NRA
annual meetings. Third, reductions in firearm injuries during dates of NRA annual
meetings were only observed among men, which would be expected given that men
account for nearly 85% of meeting attendees.13 Fourth, reductions in firearm injuries
during dates of NRA annual meetings were largest in areas where gun ownership is
highest. If attendees of NRA annual meetings disproportionately live in areas with high
gun ownership, we would expect reductions in firearm injuries during dates of NRA
annual meetings to be largest in these areas if meeting attendance leads to a transient
reduction in firearm use locally. Fifth, we demonstrated that overall reductions in firearm
injury rates during NRA annual meeting dates were larger for individuals residing in the
same state where the annual convention was held in a given year. If individuals are more
likely to attend NRA annual meetings when meetings are closer to home, we would
expect larger reductions in firearm injuries during dates of meetings that occur locally.
Sixth, an implication of our findings is that even among experienced gun owners – who
might be more likely to attend NRA annual conventions – the rate of firearm injury
directly relates to the amount of firearm use. This is consistent with prior evidence that
firearm training is inconsistently received by firearm owners and that the length of
firearm training or how recently it was conducted bears little relationship with firearm
storage practices, one measure of firearm safety

If I am understanding it (and I'm not sure I am because this seems like a somewhat ridiculous way to report it), the study is not claiming a 20% drop in injuries.  It is reporting a 20% drop in the proportion of emergency room and hospitalizations due to fire arm injuries.  So it's not .3 incidents per 100,000 persons, but .3 incidents per 100,000 emergency room visits or hospitalizations. 

That would imply that something like 32.41 fire arm related emergency room visits or hospitalizations were avoided because 80,000 gun owners at a convention.  So one in 2,468 of the convention goers would have somehow contributed to a fire arm related injury (either by having a range shoot, or keeping their range open, or having an accident themselves, etc). 

That still seems high to me.  Out of all the gunowners I know, some of whom shoot regularly, some of whom only handle a gun when they are hunting, I only know of two people basically 30 years apart that were hospitalized due to a fire arm accident.  But it's not obviously wrong like the number would be if they are really reporting .3 per 100,000 people reduction in the population at large during the NRA convention. 

Still not sure that's what they are trying to report though.  However good their methodology is or is not, it doesn't seem like they're doing a great job of communicating their findings.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #535 on: March 02, 2018, 01:04:37 PM »
I'm not a gun expert, but:

- A folding stock makes it easier to maneuver a gun in close quarters
- A pistol grip makes it easier to aim a weapon
- A flash suppressor makes it harder to locate a shooter
- A barrel shroud makes it easier to handle and aim a weapon being fired continuously

No.

A folding stock may make it easier to maneuver, but you know what’s even easier to maneuver?  A pistol.

If a pistol grip makes it easier to aim a weapon, why do almost all hunting and long range rifles not have one?

A flash suppressor directs the flash to the sides, as opposed to up; it merely makes it so the flash doesn’t blind the shooter

A barrel shroud just makes it less likely the shooter will burn his hand on a barrel since most ARs don’t have a full length stock.

It’s all literally just style and cosmetics. It’s like claiming a 2dr car is faster than a 4dr car simply for having less doors. Not the way it works.

Oh, come on man. I would sort of give you the third point. The rest of this is super-disingenuous.
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #536 on: March 02, 2018, 01:29:03 PM »
I'm not a gun expert, but:

- A folding stock makes it easier to maneuver a gun in close quarters
- A pistol grip makes it easier to aim a weapon
- A flash suppressor makes it harder to locate a shooter
- A barrel shroud makes it easier to handle and aim a weapon being fired continuously

No.

A folding stock may make it easier to maneuver, but you know what’s even easier to maneuver?  A pistol.

If a pistol grip makes it easier to aim a weapon, why do almost all hunting and long range rifles not have one?

A flash suppressor directs the flash to the sides, as opposed to up; it merely makes it so the flash doesn’t blind the shooter

A barrel shroud just makes it less likely the shooter will burn his hand on a barrel since most ARs don’t have a full length stock.

It’s all literally just style and cosmetics. It’s like claiming a 2dr car is faster than a 4dr car simply for having less doors. Not the way it works.

If it's all just style and cosmetics . . . why does it matter if it's banned?  Just get the less stylish/cosmetic guns and prove all the gun control people wrong and go about your day.  If however it does make it easier to use a weapon, then how are you possibly arguing that it's all 'style and cosmetics'?

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #537 on: March 02, 2018, 01:50:27 PM »
I'm not a gun expert, but:

- A folding stock makes it easier to maneuver a gun in close quarters
- A pistol grip makes it easier to aim a weapon
- A flash suppressor makes it harder to locate a shooter
- A barrel shroud makes it easier to handle and aim a weapon being fired continuously

No.

A folding stock may make it easier to maneuver, but you know what’s even easier to maneuver?  A pistol.

If a pistol grip makes it easier to aim a weapon, why do almost all hunting and long range rifles not have one?

A flash suppressor directs the flash to the sides, as opposed to up; it merely makes it so the flash doesn’t blind the shooter

A barrel shroud just makes it less likely the shooter will burn his hand on a barrel since most ARs don’t have a full length stock.

It’s all literally just style and cosmetics. It’s like claiming a 2dr car is faster than a 4dr car simply for having less doors. Not the way it works.

If it's all just style and cosmetics . . . why does it matter if it's banned?  Just get the less stylish/cosmetic guns and prove all the gun control people wrong and go about your day.  If however it does make it easier to use a weapon, then how are you possibly arguing that it's all 'style and cosmetics'?

An AR type weapon certainly is more deadly.
-Folding stock makes it easier to swing around. A handgun is even easier, but the folding stock long barrel gives you alot more accuracy. A mass shooter, with about 2 minutes, could cut off a stock and sand it smooth and have this advantage.

-A pistol grip makes it easier to aim: Not totally sure. Some people I know with RSI would be unable to shoot without a pistol grip though.

-A flash suppressor and barrel shroud help an operator move more lead with less blindness or burnt hands. Both things could be done to a standard weapon with little creativity.

I won't augue that an AR is designed to be easy to use and effective. I will aurgue that banning them, as proven by a basic analysis of data (I mean, how hard is to look at a chart and see a trend? How expert do you really need to be), and the studied below, the previous AWB didn't make much or any differnce in mass shootings or gun violence as a whole.

It would result in a serious weaking of the intent of the second amendment: the public's ability to resist tyranny.

For Dark And Stormy:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-stokes-assault-weapon-ban-20180301-story.html

That bar chart you show not only trys to skew averages by lumping the data, it defines mass shooting differently to skew what it's measuring. (Read his footnotes.)



GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #538 on: March 02, 2018, 02:06:42 PM »
It would result in a serious weaking of the intent of the second amendment: the public's ability to resist tyranny.

Yeah, banning fully automatic weapons also does this.  The best weapons to resist your hypothetical tyranny are going to be able to murder lots of kids in a school quickly.  I guess it comes down to whether you think it's better to live under the certain tyranny of those with free access to firearms, or the theoretical tyranny that might one day come about from democratically electing your leaders.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #539 on: March 02, 2018, 02:31:36 PM »
For Dark And Stormy:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-stokes-assault-weapon-ban-20180301-story.html

That bar chart you show not only trys to skew averages by lumping the data, it defines mass shooting differently to skew what it's measuring. (Read his footnotes.)

The article addresses the decade prior to 1994 and 1994-2004 and for some reason leaves out what has happened since the expiration of the AWB.

This chart seems to indicate that mass shootings at least stalled in frequency during the AWB while the frequency was increasing both before and after the 1994-2004 ban.

https://www.cnn.com/2013/09/16/us/20-deadliest-mass-shootings-in-u-s-history-fast-facts/index.html

The 13 deadliest shootings in U.S. history since 1949 all occurred before or after the AWB.  Of the 34 deadliest shootings since then, only 3 occurred in that decade.  That's 70 years (69 technically)...so on a per decade basis you would expect about 5 per decade, all things being equal like gun laws, population, magazine size, etc. etc.  Guess which decade dominates the list? 2007-2017.
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Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #540 on: March 02, 2018, 02:33:50 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates
Whoops!

Guns aren't allowed at the NRA convention. Presumably the people at the convention left their guns at home, no?

But we were told that large crowds of unarmed people are sitting ducks. Just like schools and churches. Why wouldn't the NRA want everyone armed. Their conventions might be the safest places in history on par with sitting on the moon alone with plenty of oxygen. /s

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #541 on: March 02, 2018, 02:38:26 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates
Whoops!

Guns aren't allowed at the NRA convention. Presumably the people at the convention left their guns at home, no?

But we were told that large crowds of unarmed people are sitting ducks. Just like schools and churches. Why wouldn't the NRA want everyone armed. Their conventions might be the safest places in history on par with sitting on the moon alone with plenty of oxygen. /s

Obviously the NRA doesn't trust a bunch of yahoos with guns.  (Unless they're in a school.)

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #542 on: March 02, 2018, 03:05:21 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates
Whoops!

Guns aren't allowed at the NRA convention. Presumably the people at the convention left their guns at home, no?

But we were told that large crowds of unarmed people are sitting ducks. Just like schools and churches. Why wouldn't the NRA want everyone armed. Their conventions might be the safest places in history on par with sitting on the moon alone with plenty of oxygen. /s

Obviously the NRA doesn't trust a bunch of yahoos with guns.  (Unless they're in a school.)

Or maybe the NRA has conventions at, I don't know, maybe at convention centers and hotels that, as property owners, get to enforce their own rules? 


Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #543 on: March 02, 2018, 03:18:50 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates
Whoops!

Guns aren't allowed at the NRA convention. Presumably the people at the convention left their guns at home, no?

But we were told that large crowds of unarmed people are sitting ducks. Just like schools and churches. Why wouldn't the NRA want everyone armed. Their conventions might be the safest places in history on par with sitting on the moon alone with plenty of oxygen. /s

Obviously the NRA doesn't trust a bunch of yahoos with guns.  (Unless they're in a school.)

Or maybe the NRA has conventions at, I don't know, maybe at convention centers and hotels that, as property owners, get to enforce their own rules?

If they stuck true to their principles, they would refuse to do business at those libtard snowflake venues.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #544 on: March 02, 2018, 03:26:54 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates
Whoops!

Guns aren't allowed at the NRA convention. Presumably the people at the convention left their guns at home, no?

But we were told that large crowds of unarmed people are sitting ducks. Just like schools and churches. Why wouldn't the NRA want everyone armed. Their conventions might be the safest places in history on par with sitting on the moon alone with plenty of oxygen. /s

Obviously the NRA doesn't trust a bunch of yahoos with guns.  (Unless they're in a school.)

Or maybe the NRA has conventions at, I don't know, maybe at convention centers and hotels that, as property owners, get to enforce their own rules?

If they stuck true to their principles, they would refuse to do business at those libtard snowflake venues.

I'm going to take a stab in teh dark and guess you've never been to an NRA convention?

Is there a reason you think they don't have armed security? 

I have no clue whether they do or not, but it would not surprise me that an organization that gets as many threats as it does to spring for armed security for an 80k person convention.

I'm also not sure how many options they have for their conventions.  I would assume that an 80k person convention could get some concessions to allow carrying in compliance with state law if they tried hard enough, but if they are providing armed security anyway, I'm not sure why it'd be high on their priority list.   


Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #545 on: March 02, 2018, 03:30:45 PM »
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/3/2/17070662/nra-convention-gun-injury-rates
Whoops!

Guns aren't allowed at the NRA convention. Presumably the people at the convention left their guns at home, no?

But we were told that large crowds of unarmed people are sitting ducks. Just like schools and churches. Why wouldn't the NRA want everyone armed. Their conventions might be the safest places in history on par with sitting on the moon alone with plenty of oxygen. /s

Obviously the NRA doesn't trust a bunch of yahoos with guns.  (Unless they're in a school.)

Or maybe the NRA has conventions at, I don't know, maybe at convention centers and hotels that, as property owners, get to enforce their own rules?

If they stuck true to their principles, they would refuse to do business at those libtard snowflake venues.

I'm going to take a stab in teh dark and guess you've never been to an NRA convention?

Is there a reason you think they don't have armed security? 

I have no clue whether they do or not, but it would not surprise me that an organization that gets as many threats as it does to spring for armed security for an 80k person convention.

I'm also not sure how many options they have for their conventions.  I would assume that an 80k person convention could get some concessions to allow carrying in compliance with state law if they tried hard enough, but if they are providing armed security anyway, I'm not sure why it'd be high on their priority list.   

Okay, Jrr85, it was kind of a joke.

But as you haven't taken it as such, I don't think the armed security thing makes any difference at all. My point was, if the NRA stuck to their principles, they'd choose a venue where people could all carry. You know. On principle.
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

LeRainDrop

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #546 on: March 02, 2018, 04:10:28 PM »
Just saw another headline. School shooting at Central Michigan University. 2 dead so far, no shooter captured yet.

Yes, a student shot and killed his parents when they came to his dorm room to pick him up for spring break.  As of now, he is still at large:  http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2018/03/02/shooting-at-central-michigan-university/

px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #547 on: March 02, 2018, 09:30:36 PM »
We heard how the magazine ban would have stopped this Florida shooting too. Small problem when the shooter was using 10 round magazines. Seems like the media has continued to ignore this part.

And for those that actually read the weapon ban bill, it has some nice caveats. If the weapon type is or was made as fully automatic, it is banned. So, the guy that converts a normal handgun to full auto as part of a movie production, then that entire type of weapon is banned for the rest of the people. (Machineguns can still be made for certain reasons and for the companies with a correct license). Because a pistol was offered to the government in a full auto version, it is now illegal to possess a semi-auto version.

If you look at the FBI NICS check record, we should correlate a mass increase in violent crime. Over 280 million background checks in the last 20 years. These could be done for one gun per check or 10. These numbers also don't include the states that use their own background system. If guns are the problem, why would having sales that have easily exceeded the US population not caused the type of crime expected?


jrhampt

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #548 on: March 03, 2018, 07:15:11 AM »
It would result in a serious weaking of the intent of the second amendment: the public's ability to resist tyranny.

Yeah, banning fully automatic weapons also does this.  The best weapons to resist your hypothetical tyranny are going to be able to murder lots of kids in a school quickly.  I guess it comes down to whether you think it's better to live under the certain tyranny of those with free access to firearms, or the theoretical tyranny that might one day come about from democratically electing your leaders.

In order to better resist tyranny maybe we all need access to nukes.  I’m sure if the founding fathers knew about nukes they would have included them in the second amendment.  🙄

EricL

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #549 on: March 03, 2018, 01:19:50 PM »
It would result in a serious weaking of the intent of the second amendment: the public's ability to resist tyranny.

Yeah, banning fully automatic weapons also does this.  The best weapons to resist your hypothetical tyranny are going to be able to murder lots of kids in a school quickly.  I guess it comes down to whether you think it's better to live under the certain tyranny of those with free access to firearms, or the theoretical tyranny that might one day come about from democratically electing your leaders.

Ahh yes.  The "the theoretical tyranny that might one day come about from democratically electing your leaders."  The irony is that the “theoretical tyranny":

- Was NOT elected by popular vote.  The blond android was.  The electoral college made HIM president.
- Wants to confiscate guns without due process.
- Wants to sell US public lands to the highest bidder for fracking, strip mining, etc.
- Wants to reverse regulations on banks and other financial institutions so they can victimize small account holders/investors and endanger the economy.
- Wants to ban immigrants based on race/religion and continue policies of indefinite incarceration.  (Talk about a slippery slope we should never go down.)
- Wants to privatize our public works program for corporate gain
- Endorses privatized prison systems
- Continues the militarization of our police forces
- Endorses unlawful use of force by those forces
- Continues a surveillance state apparatus
- Wants to destroy what social safety nets we have
- Endorses torture
- Endorses White Supremacy and Nazis
- Seems beholden to repressive, even murderous Russian oligarchs
- Denies the rights of LBQT citizens
- Considers women second class citizens

And that’s the short list.  Or maybe you don't consider all that at least the making of tyranny?

I know it's just the opinion of a single guy.  But I agree with George Carlin's attitude on the Cult of the Child.  But if I did have kids I'd rather have free children at risk from occasional gunfire (and cars and flu, etc.) than have them live in an authoritarian society. 
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