Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 62573 times)

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #700 on: March 16, 2018, 01:20:50 PM »
You are correct. I don’t believe in that so it doesn’t enter my calculus.

You do realize the inverse of this is "I don't believe guns make anybody safer than no guns, therefore your pro-gun arguments are invalid" right?

Aren’t we on a board that is supposed to prize facts and math over feelings and fairy dust?  Am I misunderstanding you, or are you really saying that the psychological feeling of doing something that is demonstrably worthless is to be given weight?

I'm saying you're presenting your un-fact-supported opinion ("guns add safety") as fact.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #701 on: March 16, 2018, 01:28:11 PM »
You are correct. I don’t believe in that so it doesn’t enter my calculus.

You do realize the inverse of this is "I don't believe guns make anybody safer than no guns, therefore your pro-gun arguments are invalid" right?

Aren’t we on a board that is supposed to prize facts and math over feelings and fairy dust?  Am I misunderstanding you, or are you really saying that the psychological feeling of doing something that is demonstrably worthless is to be given weight?

I'm saying you're presenting your un-fact-supported opinion ("guns add safety") as fact.

I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”  Which is true. I also do not understand the feeling of “we know this is pretty much ineffective but we should do it anyways”.  At best it’s naiive. At worst it plays to gun owners’ fears that it isn’t really about safety as it is disarmament. I try not to put on that tinfoil hat but I see the appeal.
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #702 on: March 16, 2018, 01:31:38 PM »
I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”

This is true.

"Guns give you an opportunity to hurt someone else through negligence or malice" is also true.

What is far from settled is the questions of whether guns add safety.

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #703 on: March 16, 2018, 01:38:44 PM »
I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”

This is true.

"Guns give you an opportunity to hurt someone else through negligence or malice" is also true.


So do many other things. In the United States, we don’t have “precrime”. We don’t punish you and remove your rights for what you “could” do.  We remove your rights based your demonstrated inability to use them responsibly.
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Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #704 on: March 16, 2018, 01:53:02 PM »

With the exception of the vegas shooter, most of the recent mass shooters would have been as bad or nearly as bad with a pistol and/or used a pistol with or without a rifle. 

The VA tech shooter used pistols exclusively, the newtown shooter used both pistols and a rifle, and the orlando shooter used both pistols and a rifle.

Unfortunately killing unarmed people in close quarters doesn't require a rifle.

It certainly doesn't require it but I think we have reason to believe that in certain stuations a rifle can be more deadly. In close quarters a handgun may be more deadly. More than rifle vs pistol I think we should be talking about ammunition type, magazine size and the ability to customize weapons. I'll admit it's a very difficult topic to debate and I'd take the opinion of someone trained in the use of assault weapons or active shooter scenarios over my own.

I regards to citing previous accounts like Newtown, VA Tech and Las Vegas*, I just don't think there are enough data points (let's hope there never will be) to make any meaningful conlusions about the potential deadliness of different weapons. In the right situation any gun can be deadly and the number killed can be largely up to the ability of the shooter and chance. When debating the deadliness of weapons I think arguments should rely on what could potentially happen rather than what has happened in the past.

*I realize I cited Las Vegas but I was referring more to the scenario than the fact that it actually happened. The deadliness of that event can probably be attributed to the bump stock as much as the weapon.

With the exception of Vegas, mass shootings have happened mainly in close quarters and most homicides by guns happen with pistols. 

Given that, it would make more sense (to me anyway) to focus on a) preventing a weapon (of any kind) from getting to someone who is mentally unstable or has criminal intent b) strengthening security at likely targets and c) fixing law enforcement tactics versus the focus on the ar-15.  That kind of approach will save a lot more lives than a banning a firearm that is involved in less than 4% of all homicides despite its wide availability.

My comments have been from a perspective of what the ideal laws would look like and are focused on mass shootings. Your comments focus on what actions should be taken given our existing laws and having limited resources to change them. I would absolutely agree that more lives can be saved by focusing on something other than assault weapons (like drug laws and the prison system) but I think both conversations are worth having.

If we were starting from a clean slate writing new laws and the question was, "Should assault rifles be sold to the general public?" would you feel differently? And I'm not asking for an answer to the first question, I realize it's not specific enough. I'm just trying to give an idea of where my comments are coming from.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #705 on: March 16, 2018, 01:59:19 PM »
You are correct. I don’t believe in that so it doesn’t enter my calculus.

You do realize the inverse of this is "I don't believe guns make anybody safer than no guns, therefore your pro-gun arguments are invalid" right?

Aren’t we on a board that is supposed to prize facts and math over feelings and fairy dust?  Am I misunderstanding you, or are you really saying that the psychological feeling of doing something that is demonstrably worthless is to be given weight?

I'm saying you're presenting your un-fact-supported opinion ("guns add safety") as fact.

I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”  Which is true. I also do not understand the feeling of “we know this is pretty much ineffective but we should do it anyways”.  At best it’s naiive. At worst it plays to gun owners’ fears that it isn’t really about safety as it is disarmament. I try not to put on that tinfoil hat but I see the appeal.

What is ineffective and how do we know that is ineffective?

Midwest

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #706 on: March 16, 2018, 02:31:43 PM »

My comments have been from a perspective of what the ideal laws would look like and are focused on mass shootings. Your comments focus on what actions should be taken given our existing laws and having limited resources to change them. I would absolutely agree that more lives can be saved by focusing on something other than assault weapons (like drug laws and the prison system) but I think both conversations are worth having.

If we were starting from a clean slate writing new laws and the question was, "Should assault rifles be sold to the general public?" would you feel differently? And I'm not asking for an answer to the first question, I realize it's not specific enough. I'm just trying to give an idea of where my comments are coming from.

To your second question, no.  I think a semi-auto pistol is as deadly or nearly as deadly as a semi-auto rifle in most mass shooter situations and at most are responsible for at most 500-700 homicides a year.  In my opinion, banning semi-auto detachable magazine rifles would save very few lives.  Shooters would simply use semi-auto pistols or shotguns in these situations.

Let's turn this around - Thousands are killed by guns of all kinds each year.  The majority of those are pistols.  Many of the killers are prohibited persons (either by age or past convictions) including some of the recent mass shooters (San Bernadino/Charleston).  Let's focus on keeping guns of all kinds out the hands of these people rather than the guns themselves.  It will be a lot more effective and will win the support of legal gun owners if implemented properly.

Banning the AR-15 is like wack a mole.  If you ban the AR, another mole will simply take it's place.  I'd prefer to shut the wack a mole machine off to people who shouldn't play with minimal impact to the majority who don't cause a problem.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 02:41:27 PM by Midwest »

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #707 on: March 16, 2018, 02:44:55 PM »
I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”

This is true.

"Guns give you an opportunity to hurt someone else through negligence or malice" is also true.


So do many other things. In the United States, we don’t have “precrime”. We don’t punish you and remove your rights for what you “could” do.  We remove your rights based your demonstrated inability to use them responsibly.

Really?

- You don't have the right to drive on the left side of the road, even if your lightning fast reflexes could prevent disaster while doing so.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to own a nuke, even if you promise not to set it off.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to practice medicine without a medical license.  No demonstration necessary.

I could go on and on with many examples that prove your statement incorrect.

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #708 on: March 16, 2018, 02:50:08 PM »
I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”

This is true.

"Guns give you an opportunity to hurt someone else through negligence or malice" is also true.


So do many other things. In the United States, we don’t have “precrime”. We don’t punish you and remove your rights for what you “could” do.  We remove your rights based your demonstrated inability to use them responsibly.

Really?

- You don't have the right to drive on the left side of the road, even if your lightning fast reflexes could prevent disaster while doing so.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to own a nuke, even if you promise not to set it off.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to practice medicine without a medical license.  No demonstration necessary.

I could go on and on with many examples that prove your statement incorrect.

The examples given are not inherent rights.  My point is, for instance, we do not make you wear a muzzle to go into a theater on the oft chance you might yell “fire!” 

You’ve been told the nuke thing is an absurd fallacy so many times in this and other threads it really isn’t worth addressing any more.
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #709 on: March 16, 2018, 03:03:12 PM »
I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”

This is true.

"Guns give you an opportunity to hurt someone else through negligence or malice" is also true.


So do many other things. In the United States, we don’t have “precrime”. We don’t punish you and remove your rights for what you “could” do.  We remove your rights based your demonstrated inability to use them responsibly.

Really?

- You don't have the right to drive on the left side of the road, even if your lightning fast reflexes could prevent disaster while doing so.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to own a nuke, even if you promise not to set it off.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to practice medicine without a medical license.  No demonstration necessary.

I could go on and on with many examples that prove your statement incorrect.

The examples given are not inherent rights.  My point is, for instance, we do not make you wear a muzzle to go into a theater on the oft chance you might yell “fire!” 

You’ve been told the nuke thing is an absurd fallacy so many times in this and other threads it really isn’t worth addressing any more.

OK, can you give a list of what you believe are inherent rights?

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #710 on: March 16, 2018, 03:08:53 PM »
I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”

This is true.

"Guns give you an opportunity to hurt someone else through negligence or malice" is also true.


So do many other things. In the United States, we don’t have “precrime”. We don’t punish you and remove your rights for what you “could” do.  We remove your rights based your demonstrated inability to use them responsibly.

Really?

- You don't have the right to drive on the left side of the road, even if your lightning fast reflexes could prevent disaster while doing so.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to own a nuke, even if you promise not to set it off.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to practice medicine without a medical license.  No demonstration necessary.

I could go on and on with many examples that prove your statement incorrect.

The examples given are not inherent rights.  My point is, for instance, we do not make you wear a muzzle to go into a theater on the oft chance you might yell “fire!” 

You’ve been told the nuke thing is an absurd fallacy so many times in this and other threads it really isn’t worth addressing any more.

OK, can you give a list of what you believe are inherent rights?

Here’s a start.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #711 on: March 16, 2018, 03:10:40 PM »
I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”

This is true.

"Guns give you an opportunity to hurt someone else through negligence or malice" is also true.


So do many other things. In the United States, we don’t have “precrime”. We don’t punish you and remove your rights for what you “could” do.  We remove your rights based your demonstrated inability to use them responsibly.

Really?

- You don't have the right to drive on the left side of the road, even if your lightning fast reflexes could prevent disaster while doing so.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to own a nuke, even if you promise not to set it off.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to practice medicine without a medical license.  No demonstration necessary.

I could go on and on with many examples that prove your statement incorrect.

The examples given are not inherent rights.  My point is, for instance, we do not make you wear a muzzle to go into a theater on the oft chance you might yell “fire!” 

You’ve been told the nuke thing is an absurd fallacy so many times in this and other threads it really isn’t worth addressing any more.

OK, can you give a list of what you believe are inherent rights?

Here’s a start.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

Can you point to the part where it says that someone with no connection to a militia has the inherent right to own a semi-automatic weapon?  Or where it says that you don't have the right to own a nuke?

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #712 on: March 16, 2018, 03:15:39 PM »
I don’t believe I’ve presented that. If I did I didn’t intend to. I’ve presented “guns give you an opportunity to defend yourself.”

This is true.

"Guns give you an opportunity to hurt someone else through negligence or malice" is also true.


So do many other things. In the United States, we don’t have “precrime”. We don’t punish you and remove your rights for what you “could” do.  We remove your rights based your demonstrated inability to use them responsibly.

Really?

- You don't have the right to drive on the left side of the road, even if your lightning fast reflexes could prevent disaster while doing so.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to own a nuke, even if you promise not to set it off.  No demonstration necessary.
- You don't have the right to practice medicine without a medical license.  No demonstration necessary.

I could go on and on with many examples that prove your statement incorrect.

The examples given are not inherent rights.  My point is, for instance, we do not make you wear a muzzle to go into a theater on the oft chance you might yell “fire!” 

You’ve been told the nuke thing is an absurd fallacy so many times in this and other threads it really isn’t worth addressing any more.

OK, can you give a list of what you believe are inherent rights?

Here’s a start.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

Can you point to the part where it says that someone with no connection to a militia has the inherent right to own a semi-automatic weapon?  Or where it says that you don't have the right to own a nuke?

I would if you were interested in discussing in good faith.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Have a nice weekend.
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RangerOne

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #713 on: March 16, 2018, 05:08:25 PM »
It is not an argument every time someone brings up gun deaths as a problem to note that car accidents kill a lot of people and we don't take away cars. Or some other event leads to so many deaths that we are able to live with, so whats the big deal with a few kids getting shot in a school so I can own a gun.

All arguments should be centered around, do you think we are doing enough to prevent kids from being randomly murdered by terrorists in our schools. The reality is the majority of other 1st world countries avoid this problem, at least on our scale, by restricting gun ownership.

Its probably not the only means to accomplish a reduction in deaths but to insinuate that no action is needed is ridiculous.

The NRA's sometimes ridiculous stances are clearly founded in their need to market for higher gun ownership. Which is no small feat in a market completely saturated with guns.

lost_in_the_endless_aisle

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #714 on: March 16, 2018, 09:41:49 PM »
It is not an argument every time someone brings up gun deaths as a problem to note that car accidents kill a lot of people and we don't take away cars. Or some other event leads to so many deaths that we are able to live with, so whats the big deal with a few kids getting shot in a school so I can own a gun.

All arguments should be centered around, do you think we are doing enough to prevent kids from being randomly murdered by terrorists in our schools. The reality is the majority of other 1st world countries avoid this problem, at least on our scale, by restricting gun ownership.

Its probably not the only means to accomplish a reduction in deaths but to insinuate that no action is needed is ridiculous.

The NRA's sometimes ridiculous stances are clearly founded in their need to market for higher gun ownership. Which is no small feat in a market completely saturated with guns.
Just going to leave this here:

Don't be misled by the publicity on shootings: For kids, schools actually are the safest refuges from gun violence

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #715 on: March 18, 2018, 06:47:27 AM »
It is not an argument every time someone brings up gun deaths as a problem to note that car accidents kill a lot of people and we don't take away cars. Or some other event leads to so many deaths that we are able to live with, so whats the big deal with a few kids getting shot in a school so I can own a gun.

All arguments should be centered around, do you think we are doing enough to prevent kids from being randomly murdered by terrorists in our schools. The reality is the majority of other 1st world countries avoid this problem, at least on our scale, by restricting gun ownership.

Its probably not the only means to accomplish a reduction in deaths but to insinuate that no action is needed is ridiculous.

The NRA's sometimes ridiculous stances are clearly founded in their need to market for higher gun ownership. Which is no small feat in a market completely saturated with guns.
Just going to leave this here:

Don't be misled by the publicity on shootings: For kids, schools actually are the safest refuges from gun violence

I agree very much with that article.  Gun violence in schools is very noticible, but it's a symptom of a larger problem.  That's why real gun nation-wide controls are necessary, not wasted measures like arming teachers and turning schools into hardened bunkers of learning.


It is not an argument every time someone brings up gun deaths as a problem to note that car accidents kill a lot of people and we don't take away cars. Or some other event leads to so many deaths that we are able to live with, so whats the big deal with a few kids getting shot in a school so I can own a gun.

All arguments should be centered around, do you think we are doing enough to prevent kids from being randomly murdered by terrorists in our schools. The reality is the majority of other 1st world countries avoid this problem, at least on our scale, by restricting gun ownership.

Its probably not the only means to accomplish a reduction in deaths but to insinuate that no action is needed is ridiculous.

The NRA's sometimes ridiculous stances are clearly founded in their need to market for higher gun ownership. Which is no small feat in a market completely saturated with guns.


It's hard to look at other countries gun control and transpose their success to the US. 
  • The US has more guns than the rest of the world combined
  • The US has the largest military in the world
  • The US has an incredibly diverse population
  • The US has a problem with violent crime using illegal guns in urban communities
That's just a few of the major cultural differences that make the US unique.  There is no other country like this.  Even US sports like our 'football' are ridiculously violent compared to real fubol played by the rest of the world.

It's unlikely to replicate the success of Australia or any other country because they started 90% closer to the goal than where we are today.  The culture is changing (slowly), and incremental progress over time will be most productive.  Trying to change too much too soon will backfire with the opposing side digging in their heels.

The US has more guns than the rest of the world combined.  Yep.  It's the easy access to these weapons that is (at least partly) driving the problem.

The US has the largest military in the world.  Yeah, but I'm not seeing a clear link between this and nationwide gun violence.

The US has an incredibly diverse population.  Uh, nope.  Most world studies put the US somewhere in the middle for diversity, typically well below Canada for example.  Despite what Fox rants about, you are still a predominantly white, Christian, English speaking nation.

The US has a problem with violent crime using illegal guns in urban areas.  This isn't unique at all.  Most urban areas have problems with violent crime.  What's unique about the ?US is the way that you've made it extremely easy for criminals to get guns, and extremely hard to prosecute those who supply them.

You say that things are slowly changing over time, but I'm not sure that's true.  Restrictions around guns have only been loosened in my lifetime.  Can you point to what you consider movement in the right direction?

RetiredAt63

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #716 on: March 18, 2018, 12:44:52 PM »
The US has an incredibly diverse population.  Uh, nope.  Most world studies put the US somewhere in the middle for diversity, typically well below Canada for example.  Despite what Fox rants about, you are still a predominantly white, Christian, English speaking nation.

Canada is more diverse?  I guess if you include all the different shades of white people, lol.  You lob an insult at me about Fox News - thanks for that.

You misunderstood my other points as well, I'll try to clarify later.

I guess it depends on how you define diverse.  There is a lot of different "white" out there.  My Anglophone College (Montreal) did a survey once and we had students from 42 different ethnic backgrounds.  I am sure a Francophone College would have had higher numbers.

From http://canadianimmigrant.ca/guides/moving-to-canada/diversity-in-canada-an-overview

Diversity by the Numbers

Today, immigrants represent over 20 percent of the total Canadian population, the highest proportion among G8 countries.  According to Statistics Canada, the majority of Canada’s foreign-born population reside in Ontario, British Columbia, Quebec and Alberta, and most in the nation’s largest urban centres.  Over 200 ethnic origins were reported in the 2011 National Household Survey and 13 of those had surpassed the one million population mark.

Language Diversity

Walk down the street in one of Canada’s major cities and you won’t be surprised to hear a dozen languages spoken.  Although Canada has two official languages (English and French), more than 200 languages were reported in the 2011 Census of Population as a home language or mother tongue.  17.5 percent reported speaking at least two languages at home, compared to 14.2 percent in 2006.  In 2011, 80 percent of the population who reported speaking a language other than English, French or an Aboriginal language lived in one of Canada’s six largest census metropolitan areas (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa).
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #717 on: March 18, 2018, 01:03:37 PM »
The US has an incredibly diverse population.  Uh, nope.  Most world studies put the US somewhere in the middle for diversity, typically well below Canada for example.  Despite what Fox rants about, you are still a predominantly white, Christian, English speaking nation.

Canada is more diverse?  I guess if you include all the different shades of white people, lol.  You lob an insult at me about Fox News - thanks for that.



You misunderstood my other points as well, I'll try to clarify later.

I'm not sure exactly where the data for the graph you produced is coming from.  There do seem to be problems with it though . . . in 2006 (the date on it) about 20% of Canada's population identified as a non-white visible minority and about 4% identified as aboriginal.  The numbers have increased steadily since then.  - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada#Ethnicity

Canada's rated higher than the US on both Fearson's ethnic and cultural diversity index, and on Alesina's Ethnic, Linguistic and Religious Fractionalization index.  -
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level

Pew research ranked Canada in the top 20 diverse countries, while "The United States ranks near the middle, slightly more diverse than Russia but slightly less diverse than Spain." - http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/07/18/the-most-and-least-culturally-diverse-countries-in-the-world/

As has been mentioned, we are ranked in the top 8 countries in the world for hosting immigrants.  - https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/highest-immigrant-population-in-the-world.html


So yeah . . . the US does have the largest population of immigrants in the world.  It's difficult to argue that it's the most diverse country in the world, or even that it's very high up there for diversity.  (I certainly wouldn't say that Canada is the most diverse either . . . although the evidence would appear to point to greater diversity than south of the border.)

RetiredAt63

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #718 on: March 19, 2018, 07:34:17 AM »
You need to take a closer look at the data as the measurements for Canada are apples to oranges.  US measures black, white, Asian, etc.  The challenge that US is not 'incredibly diverse' is tangential.  US has 10x the population of Canada in I'm not sure any comparisons are valid.

Ah, we look at ethnic background, which gives much more detailed information.  Someone from Syria and someone from Lebanon would be 2 groups, whereas in the US they would just go under 'white'.

When population sizes very so much, I think it is more informative to use %.  Given its huge population size compared to ours, I would hope the US would have more immigrants as a number than we do.  % will give more information about demographics, how many new people to a country who will need to be integrated, educated, etc.
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Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #719 on: March 19, 2018, 09:37:38 AM »
It is not an argument every time someone brings up gun deaths as a problem to note that car accidents kill a lot of people and we don't take away cars. Or some other event leads to so many deaths that we are able to live with, so whats the big deal with a few kids getting shot in a school so I can own a gun.

All arguments should be centered around, do you think we are doing enough to prevent kids from being randomly murdered by terrorists in our schools. The reality is the majority of other 1st world countries avoid this problem, at least on our scale, by restricting gun ownership.

Its probably not the only means to accomplish a reduction in deaths but to insinuate that no action is needed is ridiculous.

The NRA's sometimes ridiculous stances are clearly founded in their need to market for higher gun ownership. Which is no small feat in a market completely saturated with guns.
Just going to leave this here:

Don't be misled by the publicity on shootings: For kids, schools actually are the safest refuges from gun violence

I agree very much with that article.  Gun violence in schools is very noticible, but it's a symptom of a larger problem.  That's why real gun nation-wide controls are necessary, not wasted measures like arming teachers and turning schools into hardened bunkers of learning.


It is not an argument every time someone brings up gun deaths as a problem to note that car accidents kill a lot of people and we don't take away cars. Or some other event leads to so many deaths that we are able to live with, so whats the big deal with a few kids getting shot in a school so I can own a gun.

All arguments should be centered around, do you think we are doing enough to prevent kids from being randomly murdered by terrorists in our schools. The reality is the majority of other 1st world countries avoid this problem, at least on our scale, by restricting gun ownership.

Its probably not the only means to accomplish a reduction in deaths but to insinuate that no action is needed is ridiculous.

The NRA's sometimes ridiculous stances are clearly founded in their need to market for higher gun ownership. Which is no small feat in a market completely saturated with guns.


It's hard to look at other countries gun control and transpose their success to the US. 
  • The US has more guns than the rest of the world combined
  • The US has the largest military in the world
  • The US has an incredibly diverse population
  • The US has a problem with violent crime using illegal guns in urban communities
That's just a few of the major cultural differences that make the US unique.  There is no other country like this.  Even US sports like our 'football' are ridiculously violent compared to real fubol played by the rest of the world.

It's unlikely to replicate the success of Australia or any other country because they started 90% closer to the goal than where we are today.  The culture is changing (slowly), and incremental progress over time will be most productive.  Trying to change too much too soon will backfire with the opposing side digging in their heels.

The US has more guns than the rest of the world combined.  Yep.  It's the easy access to these weapons that is (at least partly) driving the problem.

The US has the largest military in the world.  Yeah, but I'm not seeing a clear link between this and nationwide gun violence.

The US has an incredibly diverse population.  Uh, nope.  Most world studies put the US somewhere in the middle for diversity, typically well below Canada for example.  Despite what Fox rants about, you are still a predominantly white, Christian, English speaking nation.

The US has a problem with violent crime using illegal guns in urban areas.  This isn't unique at all.  Most urban areas have problems with violent crime.  What's unique about the ?US is the way that you've made it extremely easy for criminals to get guns, and extremely hard to prosecute those who supply them.
  Just to be clear, it's not really "we" that have made it easy for criminals to get guns.  Guns started off as accessible because of the 2nd amendment and have remained that way largely because of 2nd amendment supporters.  Criminals have easy access to because (1) of the drug trade, largely through mexico. (2) because of the domestic drug trade (think drugs come from chicago to Mississippi, guns (mostly stolen) go from Mississippi to Chicago), and (3) prosecutors are elected positions and in the areas with the worst problems, such as Chicago or Baltimore, prosecuting straw purchasers is politically damaging, because even if straw purchasing is made a felony (in many jurisdictions its not), you're talking about democrat politicians putting girlfriends, grandmothers, aunts etc. with otherwise clean records in jail for buying a gun for their felon boyfriends/relatives who can't pass a background check, and most of those girlfriends, grandmothers, aunts, etc. are going to be from voting blocs that the politician relies upon to get elected.  The different mechanisms for getting guns are enabled by different political factions, with left and right historically supporting the drug war, left and establishment right not wanting to have effective border control, the left being the primary obstacle to prosecuting straw purchasers, and I'm not sure there is a current political faction to blame for the domestic gun/drugs trade.  That genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago and I don't think there is an easy (or even hard) way to stop it that's feasible.  Even if the war on drugs were ended, the criminal infrastructure is there and they'd just move to using their guns to pursue other criminal enterprises that might be more damaging than the illegal drug trade, since it won't involve victimless crimes.     

You say that things are slowly changing over time, but I'm not sure that's true.  Restrictions around guns have only been loosened in my lifetime.  Can you point to what you consider movement in the right direction?

Until recently, violent crime rates were on a long and steady drop.  Lots of theories as to why (unleaded gasoline, more abortions, higher incarceration rates, more concealed carry) that may not really be the "culture" of violence changing, but a good trend regardless.   
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 11:35:36 AM by Jrr85 »

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #720 on: March 19, 2018, 07:40:35 PM »
I don't know, but believe it would. It feels like most just think, "It'll never be my kid" and shrug it off. Kind of like how no one believes their kid is the bully. No matter how much you teach your kids about guns, you can't be sure they will be smart about it. Leaving loaded weapons in easy reach is seriously piss poor parenting.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #721 on: March 19, 2018, 11:10:03 PM »
Probably, in no particular order, because of much different rates of poverty, mental illness, multi-generational problems with gangsterism, the drug war, ethnic conflicts and hopelessness or social disconnection.

...and gun ownership?

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #722 on: March 20, 2018, 07:53:43 AM »
I don't know, but believe it would. It feels like most just think, "It'll never be my kid" and shrug it off. Kind of like how no one believes their kid is the bully. No matter how much you teach your kids about guns, you can't be sure they will be smart about it. Leaving loaded weapons in easy reach is seriously piss poor parenting.

Given that 1.7 million kids live in homes with loaded, unsecured guns (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9226351/ns/health-childrens_health/t/million-kids-live-homes-loaded-guns/#.WrEQxa6nEkI), it's pretty clear than an awful lot of gun owners are piss poor parents.  Rather than a stiff criminal penalty, force them to take responsibility for their action.  Permanently remove the right of anyone involved in this sort of thing to ever own a firearm again.

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #723 on: March 20, 2018, 08:10:32 AM »
I don't know, but believe it would. It feels like most just think, "It'll never be my kid" and shrug it off. Kind of like how no one believes their kid is the bully. No matter how much you teach your kids about guns, you can't be sure they will be smart about it. Leaving loaded weapons in easy reach is seriously piss poor parenting.

Given that 1.7 million kids live in homes with loaded, unsecured guns (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9226351/ns/health-childrens_health/t/million-kids-live-homes-loaded-guns/#.WrEQxa6nEkI), it's pretty clear than an awful lot of gun owners are piss poor parents.  Rather than a stiff criminal penalty, force them to take responsibility for their action.  Permanently remove the right of anyone involved in this sort of thing to ever own a firearm again.

I'm OK with this on a conceptual basis. Feels ripe for abuse though.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #724 on: March 20, 2018, 08:22:25 AM »
I had this discussion with a friend recently who was advocating for an AR-15 ban.  He thought rifles were more accurate and could fire more shots per minute than a handgun.  I disagreed and pointed to the fish in a barrel argument - accuracy doesn't matter much in a crowd.  On the first point we couldn't agree if a rifle could fire faster or not.  I think fire rates are as fast as you can pull the trigger in both cases.  There are huge capacity clips available for both.  Also there is the possibility that a shooter could wield 2 pistols for more firepower.  Maybe that's just in the movies...

Are AR-15 rifle rounds more or less lethal than a 9mm round from a standard pistol?  Probably hard to get a definitive answer because there are a lot of types of rounds.  I've read that the AR round travels faster but delivers less power overall.  Which one typically causes more damage?

Can someone with knowledge of both chime in on these questions?
I'm a bit late responding to this, but  a couple points are worth bringing up:
1) Dual-wielding pistols (or any other weapon) is Hollywood stupidity.  You lose effectiveness with two weapons.
2) A semiauto rifle has the same rate of fire as a semiauto handgun, i.e. how fast you pull the trigger.  However, given a rifle's larger size, it's easier/faster to recover from the recoil and get back on target, and of course rifles are more effective at longer ranges.  There are 33-round magazines for Glock semiauto handguns, and even the ridiculous 50-round double-drum magazine, if you're rich and feeling silly.

I don't know, but believe it would. It feels like most just think, "It'll never be my kid" and shrug it off. Kind of like how no one believes their kid is the bully. No matter how much you teach your kids about guns, you can't be sure they will be smart about it. Leaving loaded weapons in easy reach is seriously piss poor parenting.

Given that 1.7 million kids live in homes with loaded, unsecured guns (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9226351/ns/health-childrens_health/t/million-kids-live-homes-loaded-guns/#.WrEQxa6nEkI), it's pretty clear than an awful lot of gun owners are piss poor parents.  Rather than a stiff criminal penalty, force them to take responsibility for their action.  Permanently remove the right of anyone involved in this sort of thing to ever own a firearm again.
You keep bringing this up, but I'm sorry, this is just silly.  It's like permanently banning someone from driving a car if they got a speeding ticket once.  C'mon, man.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #725 on: March 20, 2018, 08:28:14 AM »
You keep bringing this up, but I'm sorry, this is just silly.  It's like permanently banning someone from driving a car if they got a speeding ticket once.  C'mon, man.
Nope, it's more like a permanent ban on driving if you kill someone while driving drunk. Irresponsible and dangerous behaviour leading to death = loss of privileges.
Perfectly justifiable.
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #726 on: March 20, 2018, 09:06:57 AM »
I don't know, but believe it would. It feels like most just think, "It'll never be my kid" and shrug it off. Kind of like how no one believes their kid is the bully. No matter how much you teach your kids about guns, you can't be sure they will be smart about it. Leaving loaded weapons in easy reach is seriously piss poor parenting.

Given that 1.7 million kids live in homes with loaded, unsecured guns (http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9226351/ns/health-childrens_health/t/million-kids-live-homes-loaded-guns/#.WrEQxa6nEkI), it's pretty clear than an awful lot of gun owners are piss poor parents.  Rather than a stiff criminal penalty, force them to take responsibility for their action.  Permanently remove the right of anyone involved in this sort of thing to ever own a firearm again.
You keep bringing this up, but I'm sorry, this is just silly.  It's like permanently banning someone from driving a car if they got a speeding ticket once.  C'mon, man.

Negligence causing the death of a child should be treated the same as getting a speeding ticket?  Really?  This is why so many people view gun owners as unwilling to take responsibility for their actions.

dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #727 on: March 20, 2018, 09:26:47 AM »
Texting while driving accident,no more cell phones for you, alcohol related deaths, no more booze for the parents or kids.  Drug related deaths, no more pills for you.

I’m sure there are many other ways people kill themselves and others.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #728 on: March 20, 2018, 09:36:06 AM »
Texting while driving accident,no more cell phones for you, alcohol related deaths, no more booze for the parents or kids.  Drug related deaths, no more pills for you.

I’m sure there are many other ways people kill themselves and others.

Trump was promoting the idea of the death penalty for drug dealers. I was saying to hubby that we should just go further with that. Death penalty for anyone who causes the death of anyone else. What do you say? An idea from dear leader himself!  #maga
Please note: Libertarian4321 did not vote for either Hillary or Trump. He voted for Gary Johnson, who was the Libertarian candidate.

zolotiyeruki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #729 on: March 20, 2018, 09:56:36 AM »
You keep bringing this up, but I'm sorry, this is just silly.  It's like permanently banning someone from driving a car if they got a speeding ticket once.  C'mon, man.
Nope, it's more like a permanent ban on driving if you kill someone while driving drunk. Irresponsible and dangerous behaviour leading to death = loss of privileges.
Perfectly justifiable.
Ah, I see the point of confusion--GuitarStv didn't mention in his earlier post that it would be tied to the death of a child.  I see that he has clarified that in a more recent post.

Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 09:58:07 AM by zolotiyeruki »

zolotiyeruki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #730 on: March 20, 2018, 10:04:43 AM »
A shooting in a Maryland high school today.  Two are injured before school resource officer shoots he attacker.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/shooting-reported-great-mills-maryland-high-school-n858186
The perpetrator has now apparently died.

Since this is going to be brought up anyway, I'd like to point out that Maryland has some of the more restrictive gun laws in the country:
--Universal background checks for all sales, including private sales, which must be facilitated by an FFL
--Concealed carry is "may issue," i.e. you have to convince the state to give you a license
--Handgun Qualification License is required, training/fingerprinting/etc
--Registry of all firearm transactions, including private sales
--Magazine capacity limit of 10 rounds
--Assault weapon ban

PoutineLover

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #731 on: March 20, 2018, 10:15:10 AM »
You keep bringing this up, but I'm sorry, this is just silly.  It's like permanently banning someone from driving a car if they got a speeding ticket once.  C'mon, man.
Nope, it's more like a permanent ban on driving if you kill someone while driving drunk. Irresponsible and dangerous behaviour leading to death = loss of privileges.
Perfectly justifiable.
Ah, I see the point of confusion--GuitarStv didn't mention in his earlier post that it would be tied to the death of a child.  I see that he has clarified that in a more recent post.

Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.
Not necessarily, but I think they should. In my province, 3 dui offenses gets you a 3 year driving ban, plus an interlock device for life.
This case was pretty bad: http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/marco-muzzo-gets-10-years-in-jail-for-drunk-driving-crash-that-killed-three-newmarket-kids-and-their-grandfather
The guy got a ten year jail term and 12 year driving ban for killing 3 people while driving drunk. If it were up to me, he would never get his license back.
I'm not sure what the laws are in the USA, I suspect it would vary by state.
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NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #732 on: March 20, 2018, 11:03:33 AM »
A shooting in a Maryland high school today.  Two are injured before school resource officer shoots he attacker.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/shooting-reported-great-mills-maryland-high-school-n858186
The perpetrator has now apparently died.

Since this is going to be brought up anyway, I'd like to point out that Maryland has some of the more restrictive gun laws in the country:
--Universal background checks for all sales, including private sales, which must be facilitated by an FFL
--Concealed carry is "may issue," i.e. you have to convince the state to give you a license
--Handgun Qualification License is required, training/fingerprinting/etc
--Registry of all firearm transactions, including private sales
--Magazine capacity limit of 10 rounds
--Assault weapon ban

The point is that gun restrictions aim to reduce the number and seriousness of casualties, not prevent shootings. They are one component of a more holistic approach to a complex problem. It includes police action, better mental health care, trying to shift our culture away from violence, etc..

Initial reports are three injured/dead including the shooter, which is a lot better than Parkland or [insert other event here].
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #733 on: March 20, 2018, 11:20:33 AM »
Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.

Knee-jerk reaction is that they should.  The problem is that driving a car is often required for work.  You would be creating a class of people who would have tremendous difficulty getting to/from work by revoking car privileges.  That said, I'd be liable to lean towards supporting this sort of measure.

Shooting stuff with a gun is not required for any reason.  Restricting this privileged for life will not be a roadblock to a citizen being productive.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #734 on: March 20, 2018, 11:37:05 AM »
Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.

Knee-jerk reaction is that they should.  The problem is that driving a car is often required for work.  You would be creating a class of people who would have tremendous difficulty getting to/from work by revoking car privileges.  That said, I'd be liable to lean towards supporting this sort of measure.

Shooting stuff with a gun is not required for any reason.  Restricting this privileged for life will not be a roadblock to a citizen being productive.

Penalties for drunk driving are much harsher in Europe. Coincidentally, they have much better public transport.
The first step is acknowledging you have a problem, right?

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PoutineLover

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #735 on: March 20, 2018, 11:43:52 AM »
Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.

Knee-jerk reaction is that they should.  The problem is that driving a car is often required for work.  You would be creating a class of people who would have tremendous difficulty getting to/from work by revoking car privileges.  That said, I'd be liable to lean towards supporting this sort of measure.

Shooting stuff with a gun is not required for any reason.  Restricting this privileged for life will not be a roadblock to a citizen being productive.
You don't need a car to be a productive citizen. I don't have one. There are buses, and bikes, and friends/family, and feet. Yes, they will have to think a little harder about how to get around, but I feel like that's well deserved. If you kill someone because of your stupidity and carelessness, you don't get to have access to that weapon again, whether it's a car or a gun. Or at least that's how I think it should work.
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Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #736 on: March 20, 2018, 11:54:10 AM »
Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.

Knee-jerk reaction is that they should.  The problem is that driving a car is often required for work.  You would be creating a class of people who would have tremendous difficulty getting to/from work by revoking car privileges.  That said, I'd be liable to lean towards supporting this sort of measure.

Shooting stuff with a gun is not required for any reason.  Restricting this privileged for life will not be a roadblock to a citizen being productive.

Generally speaking, convicted felons do lose the right to own a gun. Usually forever.
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dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #737 on: March 20, 2018, 12:00:07 PM »
Texting while driving accident,no more cell phones for you, alcohol related deaths, no more booze for the parents or kids.  Drug related deaths, no more pills for you.

I’m sure there are many other ways people kill themselves and others.

Trump was promoting the idea of the death penalty for drug dealers. I was saying to hubby that we should just go further with that. Death penalty for anyone who causes the death of anyone else. What do you say? An idea from dear leader himself!  #maga


Why not just have the death penalty if you use a gun during. A felony, or if your a felon caught with a gun, again death penalty.  That might get the gangs back to using knives and clubs.

That would not effect law abiding gun owners.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 12:03:15 PM by dmc »

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #738 on: March 20, 2018, 12:04:47 PM »
Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.

Knee-jerk reaction is that they should.  The problem is that driving a car is often required for work.  You would be creating a class of people who would have tremendous difficulty getting to/from work by revoking car privileges.  That said, I'd be liable to lean towards supporting this sort of measure.

Shooting stuff with a gun is not required for any reason.  Restricting this privileged for life will not be a roadblock to a citizen being productive.

Generally speaking, convicted felons do lose the right to own a gun. Usually forever.

If you want to make improper storage of a gun a felony, I can get on board with that.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #739 on: March 20, 2018, 12:16:58 PM »
Texting while driving accident,no more cell phones for you, alcohol related deaths, no more booze for the parents or kids.  Drug related deaths, no more pills for you.

I’m sure there are many other ways people kill themselves and others.

Trump was promoting the idea of the death penalty for drug dealers. I was saying to hubby that we should just go further with that. Death penalty for anyone who causes the death of anyone else. What do you say? An idea from dear leader himself!  #maga


Why not just have the death penalty if you use a gun during. A felony, or if your a felon caught with a gun, again death penalty.  That might get the gangs back to using knives and clubs.

That would not effect law abiding gun owners.

I have a feeling the NRA would have something to say about that.

Which means it would never fly with the GOP.
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zolotiyeruki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #740 on: March 20, 2018, 12:36:50 PM »
I have a feeling the NRA would have something to say about that.

Which means it would never fly with the GOP.
Many crimes have stronger penalties if the perpetrator uses a firearm in their commission.  Part of the problem, once again, is the lack of enforcement.  Chicago is a prime example of this.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #741 on: March 20, 2018, 01:23:14 PM »
Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.

Knee-jerk reaction is that they should.  The problem is that driving a car is often required for work.  You would be creating a class of people who would have tremendous difficulty getting to/from work by revoking car privileges.  That said, I'd be liable to lean towards supporting this sort of measure.

Shooting stuff with a gun is not required for any reason.  Restricting this privileged for life will not be a roadblock to a citizen being productive.

Generally speaking, convicted felons do lose the right to own a gun. Usually forever.

If you want to make improper storage of a gun a felony, I can get on board with that.

I’d be fine making improper storage of a gun a felony when it causes injury/death to a minor.  I would not be okay with making it a felony for, say, having a gun stolen from your home, or because the cops were at your house and saw a pistol in your nightstand.

Storage is highly variable depending on firearm type, home type, persons residing in the home, frequent visitors, even time of day, etc etc etc. I am not in favor of a one size fits all approach mandated by the government. I am willing to say that most of the time, if a minor gains access to your firearms and hurts someone with them you’ve done it wrong.  But if your 15y/o breaks into a safe and steals a gun for a crime, not your fault. 5y/o grabs a pistol off your nightstand and fires it, yeah, felony, I’m good with that. But single guy with no kids and his pistol is in his nightstand and the cop sees it for whatever reason?  No crime.
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GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #742 on: March 20, 2018, 01:35:40 PM »
Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.

Knee-jerk reaction is that they should.  The problem is that driving a car is often required for work.  You would be creating a class of people who would have tremendous difficulty getting to/from work by revoking car privileges.  That said, I'd be liable to lean towards supporting this sort of measure.

Shooting stuff with a gun is not required for any reason.  Restricting this privileged for life will not be a roadblock to a citizen being productive.

Generally speaking, convicted felons do lose the right to own a gun. Usually forever.

If you want to make improper storage of a gun a felony, I can get on board with that.

I’d be fine making improper storage of a gun a felony when it causes injury/death to a minor.  I would not be okay with making it a felony for, say, having a gun stolen from your home, or because the cops were at your house and saw a pistol in your nightstand.

Storage is highly variable depending on firearm type, home type, persons residing in the home, frequent visitors, even time of day, etc etc etc. I am not in favor of a one size fits all approach mandated by the government. I am willing to say that most of the time, if a minor gains access to your firearms and hurts someone with them you’ve done it wrong.  But if your 15y/o breaks into a safe and steals a gun for a crime, not your fault. 5y/o grabs a pistol off your nightstand and fires it, yeah, felony, I’m good with that. But single guy with no kids and his pistol is in his nightstand and the cop sees it for whatever reason?  No crime.

Sounds reasonable.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #743 on: March 20, 2018, 02:15:25 PM »
Do drunk drivers who kill someone currently permanently lose driving privileges?  That's an area of law with which I'm not familiar.

Knee-jerk reaction is that they should.  The problem is that driving a car is often required for work.  You would be creating a class of people who would have tremendous difficulty getting to/from work by revoking car privileges.  That said, I'd be liable to lean towards supporting this sort of measure.

Shooting stuff with a gun is not required for any reason.  Restricting this privileged for life will not be a roadblock to a citizen being productive.

Let them bicycle to work or ebike to work... A bunch of us do it. Let them adapt to getting around without a car. They'll be better off in the long run.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 02:17:28 PM by Just Joe »

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #744 on: March 20, 2018, 02:52:47 PM »
If the media reported every mass shooting event in the US as a major event, no other news would be reported.


TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #745 on: March 20, 2018, 03:14:32 PM »
A shooting in a Maryland high school today.  Two are injured before school resource officer shoots he attacker.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/amp/shooting-reported-great-mills-maryland-high-school-n858186
The perpetrator has now apparently died.

Since this is going to be brought up anyway, I'd like to point out that Maryland has some of the more restrictive gun laws in the country:
--Universal background checks for all sales, including private sales, which must be facilitated by an FFL
--Concealed carry is "may issue," i.e. you have to convince the state to give you a license
--Handgun Qualification License is required, training/fingerprinting/etc
--Registry of all firearm transactions, including private sales
--Magazine capacity limit of 10 rounds
--Assault weapon ban

The point is that gun restrictions aim to reduce the number and seriousness of casualties, not prevent shootings. They are one component of a more holistic approach to a complex problem. It includes police action, better mental health care, trying to shift our culture away from violence, etc..

Initial reports are three injured/dead including the shooter, which is a lot better than Parkland or [insert other event here].


Also, unless we make these kinds of gun laws FEDERAL, it really doesn't matter much what the states do individually. It's extremely easy to cross state lines with a gun. I recall seeing a map somewhere that showed how states with strict gun laws end up with a mass influx of guns obtained from nearby states with lax laws. Illinois being a notable one, since everyone loves to bring up Chicago as an example of everything gun related :P

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #746 on: March 20, 2018, 03:40:34 PM »
Good argument there.  I do think the state laws are effective, but federal would be much more so, closing the cracks for people willing to break the law to obtain illegal weapons.  Universal background checks seems like a good place to start. What is the reason to oppose rhat?

LOL. Have you MET the GOP?
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Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #747 on: March 20, 2018, 03:46:13 PM »
Good argument there.  I do think the state laws are effective, but federal would be much more so, closing the cracks for people willing to break the law to obtain illegal weapons.  Universal background checks seems like a good place to start.  What is the reason to oppose rhat?

I outlined a potential mechanism for it a page or two back. That would be palatable. But if it’s “no loans ever” (can’t I borrow a hunting rifle from a family member?) or “you must go to a FFL for all transfers and pay your $25” it’s going to be unpalatable. And at the same time, give us some concrete rules on what constitutes a seller; is it 1 gun a year, 5, 10?  This ambiguity leads to authoritative abuse.
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Midwest

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #748 on: March 20, 2018, 03:56:06 PM »
Good argument there.  I do think the state laws are effective, but federal would be much more so, closing the cracks for people willing to break the law to obtain illegal weapons.  Universal background checks seems like a good place to start. What is the reason to oppose rhat?

LOL. Have you MET the GOP?

It's not just the GOP.  Gun control people want gun control are for gun control whether it will have a meaningful difference or not.  The NRA is against almost everything.

Politicians (on both sides of the aisle) are too busy scoring points to get anything done.

The fix NICS bill seems pretty straightforward and even that can't pass.  I'd like some solutions to both mass shootings and violence in general and we are wasting time talking about "assault rifles."
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 03:57:37 PM by Midwest »

Midwest

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #749 on: March 20, 2018, 04:43:33 PM »
Good argument there.  I do think the state laws are effective, but federal would be much more so, closing the cracks for people willing to break the law to obtain illegal weapons.  Universal background checks seems like a good place to start. What is the reason to oppose rhat?

LOL. Have you MET the GOP?

It's not just the GOP.  Gun control people want gun control are for gun control whether it will have a meaningful difference or not.  The NRA is against almost everything.

Politicians (on both sides of the aisle) are too busy scoring points to get anything done.

The fix NICS bill seems pretty straightforward and even that can't pass.  I'd like some solutions to both mass shootings and violence in general and we are wasting time talking about "assault rifles."

I doubt you're suggesting that an equal proportion of democrats and republicans have opposed gun control in the past.  Because that would be silly; all you'd have to do to disprove that is look at the votes on past bills.

You are correct, I'm not suggesting that d and r's vote equally on gun control.  I'm criticizing all parties involved.  The fix NICS bill is a perfect example.  The R's are afraid to vote for it.  The D's are thinking about opposing it because they want more.  Dysfunction at its best.

We have a background check system.  Apparently the info kind of sucks sometimes.  Solution, improve the info.  Seems like a fairly simple improvement that should be fairly non-controversial.