Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 97897 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #450 on: February 26, 2018, 02:12:13 PM »
Perhaps rather than focusing on the suggestions made in jest, your time would be better spent addressing the real ones.

Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #451 on: February 26, 2018, 03:09:05 PM »
Perhaps rather than focusing on the suggestions made in jest, your time would be better spent addressing the real ones.

The second 2 paragraphs are relevant regardless of the quoted post, especially the 3rd paragraph.

shenlong55

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #452 on: February 26, 2018, 03:30:17 PM »
I get that this is fun for some people to think about, but on what basis will you do that according to the Consitution?

Besides that, most murderers are using 15 or less bullets, and even a horrific school shooting doesn't have have a huge number of bullets fired. The people with 1000s of bullets are target shooters and such, as it's not unusual for people like that to run through 500 rounds in a day.

Once again, so many of the gun control solutions are little more than hassles for law abiding citizens and only a minor of inconvenience for criminals, which is why so many gun owners like myself bristle at the prospect of new regulations. For pro gun control types I sense this issue is at best about the "feel good" aspect of ultimately ineffective regulations, and at worst,  gleefully  punishing a group of people (flyover country, rednecks, GOP voters etc).

Perhaps rather than focusing on the suggestions made in jest, your time would be better spent addressing the real ones.

My suggestion for example...

Unless somebody starts wanting to have a useful conversation about potential solutions that don't include confiscation of 70%+ of the lawful guns in this country, I'm out.

How about this for a solution?

1. Adjust the requirements for obtaining a machine gun to match other restricted weapons (grenade launchers, grenades, etc.).
2. Implement a national concealed carry permit with strict training requirements which can be revoked for negligence/AD (with an appeals process).
3. Provide incentives to allow concealed carry on school campuses and/or allow concealed carry with the new national CC permit.
4. Provide funding for schools to implement safety measures (penetration resistant glass doors, single point of entry, time-lock magnetic doors).
5. Increased funding for mental health treatment and law enforcement (specifically earmarked for increased enforcement of current gun laws).
6. Fund a project to improve gun tech (fingerprint scanners, microstamp bullets, etc) and require it to be on all newly manufactured guns once it's proven to be reasonably reliable.
7. All new guns sold go into a national registry which requires a warrant to search but is easily searchable once a warrant is obtained.
8. The registered owner of a gun is held liable for any damages caused by it unless they can prove that it was properly secured and reported stolen.
9. Require background checks for all gun transfers (with shall issue, timely approval requirements and an appeals process).
10. Provide easy online access to background checks for private sellers.
11. Bar sales to all violent criminals, mentally ill and stalkers (with judicial review and appeals process).
12. Allow the government to impose a delay on firearms purchases by those on the terror watch list/no fly list that can become a permanent ban with judicial review.
13. Impose a one to two week waiting period for all gun purchases (exact time is up for debate).
14. Impose magazine capacity limits (exact number is up for debate).
15. Update the legal definition of a machine gun to be based on firing rate (targeting bump stocks).
16. A generous and voluntary gun buyback program applying to all guns made before the law passed (to remove as many unregistered guns from circulation as possible).
17. Remove restrictions on the government's ability to conduct gun violence research.

I'm sure I missed a few things and of course it would need further fleshing out before being finalized.  But if I were in congress this is the basic outline of the legislation that I would be drafting.

I still haven't heard any good reasons why a republican could not propose something like this and get it passed.  Oh, and now that you mention it I think it would be a good idea to pay for all of the increased funding with increased taxes on guns and ammo.  Not to punish gun owners, but to recognize the external costs of the right to bear arms.

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #453 on: February 26, 2018, 04:01:59 PM »
Quote
How about this for a solution?

1. Adjust the requirements for obtaining a machine gun to match other restricted weapons (grenade launchers, grenades, etc.).
Are you thinking this is more, or less restrictive than it currently is?
Quote
2. Implement a national concealed carry permit with strict training requirements which can be revoked for negligence/AD (with an appeals process).
Agreed
Quote
3. Provide incentives to allow concealed carry on school campuses and/or allow concealed carry with the new national CC permit.
A man after my own heart
Quote
4. Provide funding for schools to implement safety measures (penetration resistant glass doors, single point of entry, time-lock magnetic doors).
Not opposed.
Quote
5. Increased funding for mental health treatment and law enforcement (specifically earmarked for increased enforcement of current gun laws).
Sure
Quote
6. Fund a project to improve gun tech (fingerprint scanners, microstamp bullets, etc) and require it to be on all newly manufactured guns once it's proven to be reasonably reliable.
We would have to discuss what 'reasonanly reliable' is... but fundamentally I'm not opposed.
Quote
7. All new guns sold go into a national registry which requires a warrant to search but is easily searchable once a warrant is obtained.
8. The registered owner of a gun is held liable for any damages caused by it unless they can prove that it was properly secured and reported stolen.
Registries are a bit problematic. I'd onlyway I'd even remotely support it, is if there was no way to reference the registry to a particular gun make/model, to prevent arbitrary and capricious abuses of the registry to ban the scary looking gun de-jour. Registries have been abused time and time again by governments, small and large, and I think everything below would be just as effective without a registry... or only marginally less so.
Quote
9. Require background checks for all gun transfers (with shall issue, timely approval requirements and an appeals process).
10. Provide easy online access to background checks for private sellers.
11. Bar sales to all violent criminals, mentally ill and stalkers (with judicial review and appeals process).
12. Allow the government to impose a delay on firearms purchases by those on the terror watch list/no fly list that can become a permanent ban with judicial review.
13. Impose a one to two week waiting period for all gun purchases (exact time is up for debate).
Agreed.
Quote
14. Impose magazine capacity limits (exact number is up for debate).
The capacity limit I'd be OK with is probably higher than you'd find acceptable... I think firearms must maintain capacity to be a viable deterant to tyranny.
Quote
15. Update the legal definition of a machine gun to be based on firing rate (targeting bump stocks).
Sounds good. bumpstocks are useless unless you just want to hooligan around and waste ammo, or indescriminately hurl lead into a crowd. Neither are uh, high value activities I'd care to protect.
Quote
16. A generous and voluntary gun buyback program applying to all guns made before the law passed (to remove as many unregistered guns from circulation as possible).
I think it's a waste of money. You're just going to get all of grandpa's old rusty .22 rifles and such... unless you restrict it to certain makes/models.
Quote
17. Remove restrictions on the government's ability to conduct gun violence research.
There is no government restriction...only the CDC is prevented from studying it from an injury prevention standpoint... which is probably a waste of thier time anyway. The BJS and a number of other agencies have extensive data on it.


shenlong55

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #454 on: February 26, 2018, 06:16:43 PM »
Quote
How about this for a solution?

1. Adjust the requirements for obtaining a machine gun to match other restricted weapons (grenade launchers, grenades, etc.).
Are you thinking this is more, or less restrictive than it currently is?

See my previous explanation.

1 - Not trying to make them harder to obtain with that one.  My understanding from the discussion on these threads is that it would actually make them easier to obtain.  It's a message of good faith to conservatives, because I don't think it will significantly worsen the situation (since I don't see a lot of grenade launchers being used in crimes).

Quote
6. Fund a project to improve gun tech (fingerprint scanners, microstamp bullets, etc) and require it to be on all newly manufactured guns once it's proven to be reasonably reliable.
We would have to discuss what 'reasonanly reliable' is... but fundamentally I'm not opposed.

I would probably say reasonably reliable is about 95%+ reliability, but exact numbers are always debatable.

Quote
7. All new guns sold go into a national registry which requires a warrant to search but is easily searchable once a warrant is obtained.
8. The registered owner of a gun is held liable for any damages caused by it unless they can prove that it was properly secured and reported stolen.
Registries are a bit problematic. I'd onlyway I'd even remotely support it, is if there was no way to reference the registry to a particular gun make/model, to prevent arbitrary and capricious abuses of the registry to ban the scary looking gun de-jour. Registries have been abused time and time again by governments, small and large, and I think everything below would be just as effective without a registry... or only marginally less so.

Maybe a registry is a step too far for conservatives, but I personally think it is the best solution.  I'm a big fan of personal responsibility and I think a registry would allow us to more accurately assign responsibility when things do go wrong.  If someone forgets their gun on a park bench and it's later used in a crime I want to be able to hold them responsible for their negligence.

Quote
14. Impose magazine capacity limits (exact number is up for debate).
The capacity limit I'd be OK with is probably higher than you'd find acceptable... I think firearms must maintain capacity to be a viable deterant to tyranny.

I think we could find a happy middle ground if we tried.

Quote
16. A generous and voluntary gun buyback program applying to all guns made before the law passed (to remove as many unregistered guns from circulation as possible).
I think it's a waste of money. You're just going to get all of grandpa's old rusty .22 rifles and such... unless you restrict it to certain makes/models.

I'm okay wasting a little money to accelerate the process, but it's also not central to the plan.

Quote
17. Remove restrictions on the government's ability to conduct gun violence research.
There is no government restriction...only the CDC is prevented from studying it from an injury prevention standpoint... which is probably a waste of thier time anyway. The BJS and a number of other agencies have extensive data on it.

I haven't done the research on this one myself, it may not be necessary.  I just know we often don't have data to go off of in these conversations and I think that should change.

I think the main point I'm trying to make however is that if I can come up with a proposal that takes some ideas from both sides and makes some changes that have a reasonable chance of making a difference then why can't our elected representatives?

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #455 on: February 27, 2018, 01:13:28 AM »
Quote
No, I'm not arguing that people should be able to commit any crime they want without penalty.  Some crimes carry a disproportionate penalty for the poor though, and I brought up some examples.

Jail time for people failing to pay a fine is a ridiculous idea though.  You end up wasting far more money on the jail time than you would have ever saved by getting the fine paid . . . jail time is very expensive.

Does the USA not have the equivalent of community service (manual labor) in lieu of jail time for minor offences?

It seems a much more efficient way to deal consequences. Society benefits from getting shit done and spending a whole lot less than sending them to prison. The law breaker suffers the consequence of having to do forced labor on their days off while retaining their ability to continue earning so the chance of ending up in a cycle of poverty is reduced.

marty998

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #456 on: February 27, 2018, 01:42:45 AM »
Quote
No, I'm not arguing that people should be able to commit any crime they want without penalty.  Some crimes carry a disproportionate penalty for the poor though, and I brought up some examples.

Jail time for people failing to pay a fine is a ridiculous idea though.  You end up wasting far more money on the jail time than you would have ever saved by getting the fine paid . . . jail time is very expensive.

Does the USA not have the equivalent of community service (manual labor) in lieu of jail time for minor offences?

It seems a much more efficient way to deal consequences. Society benefits from getting shit done and spending a whole lot less than sending them to prison. The law breaker suffers the consequence of having to do forced labor on their days off while retaining their ability to continue earning so the chance of ending up in a cycle of poverty is reduced.

Gooki - one issue is that the judge might be mates with the owner of the (privately operated) prisons.

Privatise your prison system and suddenly you have hidden incentives to keep people locked up as long as possible.

Even Law and Order did an episode on it (which was based on a scandal in the US a number of years back).

sequoia

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #457 on: February 27, 2018, 07:21:42 AM »


Quote
[Brown] was ticketed ... for not getting a rabies vaccine for his dog, Matrix.

Altogether Brown owed the city $464. But Brown lives on a $488 Social Security check and food stamps, so he didn't pay his fines.

"I went to jail for that," he says.

It costs like $40 to vaccinate your dog. I have one and I vaccinate him every year. If I don't, I get fined. I don't pay the fine, I end up like this guy.

Bottom line is if one live on $488 Social Security check and food stamps, one can not afford to own a dog. Back to the topic at hand...

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #458 on: February 27, 2018, 07:40:25 AM »


Quote
[Brown] was ticketed ... for not getting a rabies vaccine for his dog, Matrix.

Altogether Brown owed the city $464. But Brown lives on a $488 Social Security check and food stamps, so he didn't pay his fines.

"I went to jail for that," he says.

It costs like $40 to vaccinate your dog. I have one and I vaccinate him every year. If I don't, I get fined. I don't pay the fine, I end up like this guy.

Bottom line is if one live on $488 Social Security check and food stamps, one can not afford to own a dog. Back to the topic at hand...

Given his income, it's not likely that the guy paid a breeder for the dog.  What probably happened is that he found a stray, or knew someone who had too many puppies and agreed to take one.  You're saying that he can't afford to keep the dog.  So . . . the dog should be yet another of millions every year abandoned, eventually picked up by a shelter, and then euthanized?  Does that make anything better?  Now the guy is lonely because he has to give up his dog, and the dog becomes the problem of society.  Lose-lose.  Just like sending the guy to jail is lose-lose.

Do fans of these hard line solutions really aspire to make the world a worse place for everyone, or have they just not thought through the result of their stance?

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #459 on: February 27, 2018, 08:08:52 AM »


Quote
[Brown] was ticketed ... for not getting a rabies vaccine for his dog, Matrix.

Altogether Brown owed the city $464. But Brown lives on a $488 Social Security check and food stamps, so he didn't pay his fines.

"I went to jail for that," he says.

It costs like $40 to vaccinate your dog. I have one and I vaccinate him every year. If I don't, I get fined. I don't pay the fine, I end up like this guy.

Bottom line is if one live on $488 Social Security check and food stamps, one can not afford to own a dog. Back to the topic at hand...

Given his income, it's not likely that the guy paid a breeder for the dog.  What probably happened is that he found a stray, or knew someone who had too many puppies and agreed to take one.  You're saying that he can't afford to keep the dog.  So . . . the dog should be yet another of millions every year abandoned, eventually picked up by a shelter, and then euthanized?  Does that make anything better?  Now the guy is lonely because he has to give up his dog, and the dog becomes the problem of society.  Lose-lose.  Just like sending the guy to jail is lose-lose.

Do fans of these hard line solutions really aspire to make the world a worse place for everyone, or have they just not thought through the result of their stance?

While I agree that jail time for Brown in this case is a lose-lose, you're making several assumptions to come to your conclusion about the dog. Anyone who is struggling to feed and house themselves probably shouldn't own a dog. The circumstances of how he came to own the dog and how much it means to him is relevant so I'm not going to take a hard stance.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #460 on: February 27, 2018, 08:12:19 AM »


Quote
[Brown] was ticketed ... for not getting a rabies vaccine for his dog, Matrix.

Altogether Brown owed the city $464. But Brown lives on a $488 Social Security check and food stamps, so he didn't pay his fines.

"I went to jail for that," he says.

It costs like $40 to vaccinate your dog. I have one and I vaccinate him every year. If I don't, I get fined. I don't pay the fine, I end up like this guy.

Bottom line is if one live on $488 Social Security check and food stamps, one can not afford to own a dog. Back to the topic at hand...

Given his income, it's not likely that the guy paid a breeder for the dog.  What probably happened is that he found a stray, or knew someone who had too many puppies and agreed to take one.  You're saying that he can't afford to keep the dog.  So . . . the dog should be yet another of millions every year abandoned, eventually picked up by a shelter, and then euthanized?  Does that make anything better?  Now the guy is lonely because he has to give up his dog, and the dog becomes the problem of society.  Lose-lose.  Just like sending the guy to jail is lose-lose.

Do fans of these hard line solutions really aspire to make the world a worse place for everyone, or have they just not thought through the result of their stance?

While I agree that jail time for Brown in this case is a lose-lose, you're making several assumptions to come to your conclusion about the dog. Anyone who is struggling to feed and house themselves probably shouldn't own a dog. The circumstances of how he came to own the dog and how much it means to him is relevant so I'm not going to take a hard stance.

Sure. But:

1) There are more strays than willing owners in this country (and probably in most/all countries)
2) People who are struggling to feed and house themselves often struggle from severe loneliness, isolation and depression. So, "shouldn't own a dog" is, I suppose, logical, but you're talking about human beings as though they are robots. The emotional relief of having a pet when one is living such a precarious life is, I imagine, quite strong.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #461 on: February 27, 2018, 09:04:59 AM »


Quote
[Brown] was ticketed ... for not getting a rabies vaccine for his dog, Matrix.

Altogether Brown owed the city $464. But Brown lives on a $488 Social Security check and food stamps, so he didn't pay his fines.

"I went to jail for that," he says.

It costs like $40 to vaccinate your dog. I have one and I vaccinate him every year. If I don't, I get fined. I don't pay the fine, I end up like this guy.

Bottom line is if one live on $488 Social Security check and food stamps, one can not afford to own a dog. Back to the topic at hand...

Given his income, it's not likely that the guy paid a breeder for the dog.  What probably happened is that he found a stray, or knew someone who had too many puppies and agreed to take one.  You're saying that he can't afford to keep the dog.  So . . . the dog should be yet another of millions every year abandoned, eventually picked up by a shelter, and then euthanized?  Does that make anything better?  Now the guy is lonely because he has to give up his dog, and the dog becomes the problem of society.  Lose-lose.  Just like sending the guy to jail is lose-lose.

Do fans of these hard line solutions really aspire to make the world a worse place for everyone, or have they just not thought through the result of their stance?

While I agree that jail time for Brown in this case is a lose-lose, you're making several assumptions to come to your conclusion about the dog. Anyone who is struggling to feed and house themselves probably shouldn't own a dog. The circumstances of how he came to own the dog and how much it means to him is relevant so I'm not going to take a hard stance.

Sure. But:

1) There are more strays than willing owners in this country (and probably in most/all countries)
2) People who are struggling to feed and house themselves often struggle from severe loneliness, isolation and depression. So, "shouldn't own a dog" is, I suppose, logical, but you're talking about human beings as though they are robots. The emotional relief of having a pet when one is living such a precarious life is, I imagine, quite strong.

I specifically said "The circumstances of how he came to own the dog and how much it means to him is relevant so I'm not going to take a hard stance." to avoid someone giving this response.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #462 on: February 27, 2018, 09:28:10 AM »


Quote
[Brown] was ticketed ... for not getting a rabies vaccine for his dog, Matrix.

Altogether Brown owed the city $464. But Brown lives on a $488 Social Security check and food stamps, so he didn't pay his fines.

"I went to jail for that," he says.

It costs like $40 to vaccinate your dog. I have one and I vaccinate him every year. If I don't, I get fined. I don't pay the fine, I end up like this guy.

Bottom line is if one live on $488 Social Security check and food stamps, one can not afford to own a dog. Back to the topic at hand...

Given his income, it's not likely that the guy paid a breeder for the dog.  What probably happened is that he found a stray, or knew someone who had too many puppies and agreed to take one.  You're saying that he can't afford to keep the dog.  So . . . the dog should be yet another of millions every year abandoned, eventually picked up by a shelter, and then euthanized?  Does that make anything better?  Now the guy is lonely because he has to give up his dog, and the dog becomes the problem of society.  Lose-lose.  Just like sending the guy to jail is lose-lose.

Do fans of these hard line solutions really aspire to make the world a worse place for everyone, or have they just not thought through the result of their stance?

While I agree that jail time for Brown in this case is a lose-lose, you're making several assumptions to come to your conclusion about the dog. Anyone who is struggling to feed and house themselves probably shouldn't own a dog. The circumstances of how he came to own the dog and how much it means to him is relevant so I'm not going to take a hard stance.

Sure. But:

1) There are more strays than willing owners in this country (and probably in most/all countries)
2) People who are struggling to feed and house themselves often struggle from severe loneliness, isolation and depression. So, "shouldn't own a dog" is, I suppose, logical, but you're talking about human beings as though they are robots. The emotional relief of having a pet when one is living such a precarious life is, I imagine, quite strong.

I specifically said "The circumstances of how he came to own the dog and how much it means to him is relevant so I'm not going to take a hard stance." to avoid someone giving this response.

I see. I apologize for talking without authorization on an open forum.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #463 on: February 27, 2018, 10:05:09 AM »


Quote
[Brown] was ticketed ... for not getting a rabies vaccine for his dog, Matrix.

Altogether Brown owed the city $464. But Brown lives on a $488 Social Security check and food stamps, so he didn't pay his fines.

"I went to jail for that," he says.

It costs like $40 to vaccinate your dog. I have one and I vaccinate him every year. If I don't, I get fined. I don't pay the fine, I end up like this guy.

Bottom line is if one live on $488 Social Security check and food stamps, one can not afford to own a dog. Back to the topic at hand...

Given his income, it's not likely that the guy paid a breeder for the dog.  What probably happened is that he found a stray, or knew someone who had too many puppies and agreed to take one.  You're saying that he can't afford to keep the dog.  So . . . the dog should be yet another of millions every year abandoned, eventually picked up by a shelter, and then euthanized?  Does that make anything better?  Now the guy is lonely because he has to give up his dog, and the dog becomes the problem of society.  Lose-lose.  Just like sending the guy to jail is lose-lose.

Do fans of these hard line solutions really aspire to make the world a worse place for everyone, or have they just not thought through the result of their stance?

While I agree that jail time for Brown in this case is a lose-lose, you're making several assumptions to come to your conclusion about the dog. Anyone who is struggling to feed and house themselves probably shouldn't own a dog. The circumstances of how he came to own the dog and how much it means to him is relevant so I'm not going to take a hard stance.

Sure. But:

1) There are more strays than willing owners in this country (and probably in most/all countries)
2) People who are struggling to feed and house themselves often struggle from severe loneliness, isolation and depression. So, "shouldn't own a dog" is, I suppose, logical, but you're talking about human beings as though they are robots. The emotional relief of having a pet when one is living such a precarious life is, I imagine, quite strong.

I specifically said "The circumstances of how he came to own the dog and how much it means to him is relevant so I'm not going to take a hard stance." to avoid someone giving this response.

I see. I apologize for talking without authorization on an open forum.

You said I was talking about human beings as though they're robots. But what I really said is I don't know the circumstances so I'm not going to say he should or shouldn't. You and GuitarStv are both making assumptions that dogs provide great emotional benefit to people who you assume are lonely. Given Mr. Brown's age and living situation, that seems likely but we're not talking about Mr. Brown anymore, we're talking about anyone who is struggling to get by. Others are making assumptions that dogs are a waste of money for poor people. Can we all just stop acting like we know shit we don't know?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 10:07:34 AM by Dabnasty »

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #464 on: February 27, 2018, 10:12:06 AM »
At the end of the day, if you don't enforce the law in some way, rich or poor, society will fall apart and be crappy for everyone except those with the means to insulate themselves from it. In a place where tire slashings, car theft, small thefts, trespassing, etc go without consequences, it will be the middle class and poor who have to pay for it.   

So as I said before, perhaps some judicial discretion in sentencing is important, and more oppurtunities for community service should be made, but there need to be consequences. And yes, those consequences will often make life harder for those who face them... but that's kind of the point.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #465 on: February 27, 2018, 10:22:46 AM »
At the end of the day, if you don't enforce the law in some way, rich or poor, society will fall apart and be crappy for everyone except those with the means to insulate themselves from it. In a place where tire slashings, car theft, small thefts, trespassing, etc go without consequences, it will be the middle class and poor who have to pay for it.   

So as I said before, perhaps some judicial discretion in sentencing is important, and more oppurtunities for community service should be made, but there need to be consequences. And yes, those consequences will often make life harder for those who face them... but that's kind of the point.

Greater proportionality in sentencing would help too. The way Finland handles speeding has some of that.

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/03/finland-home-of-the-103000-speeding-ticket/387484/

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #466 on: February 27, 2018, 11:02:57 AM »
At the end of the day, if you don't enforce the law in some way, rich or poor, society will fall apart and be crappy for everyone except those with the means to insulate themselves from it. In a place where tire slashings, car theft, small thefts, trespassing, etc go without consequences, it will be the middle class and poor who have to pay for it.   

So as I said before, perhaps some judicial discretion in sentencing is important, and more oppurtunities for community service should be made, but there need to be consequences. And yes, those consequences will often make life harder for those who face them... but that's kind of the point.

Agreed.  Consequences for actions need to exist, and law needs to be enforced.

At the same time, laws need to be just.  They need to fairly apply to the rich and the poor, or they should be modified.  A person's situation needs to be considered during sentencing to ensure that justice (and the public good) is being served.

Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #467 on: February 27, 2018, 11:17:35 AM »
This is where a sense of community would be worthwhile. Imagine living in a place where the cops bust you for your dog being unlicensed, and guide you through the process of getting a ride over to the shelter where the dog can be spayed/neutered and receive its shots at a price relative to the owner's income.

Nope, this is 'Murica! Stick his tail in jail for a month and teach him a **** lesson!

This guy is very low income - what other factors is he up against? Health problems? mental health problems? Lack of education?

Admittedly he probably could have gone to the library, the firehouse, a church or a number of other places and asked for guidance but if he's been at odds with "The Man" much of his life, he might avoid some of those opportunities.

sequoia

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #468 on: February 27, 2018, 11:51:38 AM »


Quote
[Brown] was ticketed ... for not getting a rabies vaccine for his dog, Matrix.

Altogether Brown owed the city $464. But Brown lives on a $488 Social Security check and food stamps, so he didn't pay his fines.

"I went to jail for that," he says.

It costs like $40 to vaccinate your dog. I have one and I vaccinate him every year. If I don't, I get fined. I don't pay the fine, I end up like this guy.

Bottom line is if one live on $488 Social Security check and food stamps, one can not afford to own a dog. Back to the topic at hand...

Given his income, it's not likely that the guy paid a breeder for the dog.  What probably happened is that he found a stray, or knew someone who had too many puppies and agreed to take one.  You're saying that he can't afford to keep the dog.  So . . . the dog should be yet another of millions every year abandoned, eventually picked up by a shelter, and then euthanized?  Does that make anything better?  Now the guy is lonely because he has to give up his dog, and the dog becomes the problem of society.  Lose-lose.  Just like sending the guy to jail is lose-lose.

Do fans of these hard line solutions really aspire to make the world a worse place for everyone, or have they just not thought through the result of their stance?

It is not hard line solution, it is a fact. $488 Social Security check and food stamps means that one can not afford owning a pet (dog,cat,bird, etc). imho do not end up with one to start with. One need to worry about basic necessity first (food, shelter) vs owning a pet which is a luxury. Understand that this may not agreeable for everyone. And I understand a lot of people can not think rationally about money - plenty of stories here about people who are in debt (regardless of how much they make).

I love dog and other pets (have owned plenty of them in my life). If the choice is euthanizing the dog or end up in jail, the dog lose that battle everytime, but hey that just me. I rather to be lonely but have my freedom instead of end up in jail :)

Can we go back to topic at hand?


DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #469 on: February 27, 2018, 11:53:34 AM »
Congress is back in session today and basically signaling they won't do a damn thing.

KTG

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #470 on: February 27, 2018, 12:20:04 PM »
As I expected. Give the networks 10 days to run with this story, and then they will move on to something else. We'll stop talking about it. Then meet back here when the next mass shooting occurs.

Lather, rinse, and repeat.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #471 on: February 27, 2018, 12:25:50 PM »
Yep.

In other news, today I learned that there are several US cities in which legislation has passed to require people to own guns.  I guess that's the government for you . . . always trying to take away your guns.

TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #472 on: February 27, 2018, 12:28:15 PM »
It's really going to come down to whether or not people vote according to this issue this fall. I know I will be.

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #473 on: February 27, 2018, 12:43:32 PM »
I certainly hope the GOP does something reasonable for gun control, and the democrats don't torpedo it because it "doesn't go too far enough!!!1111!"


sequoia

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #474 on: February 27, 2018, 12:53:52 PM »
It's really going to come down to whether or not people vote according to this issue this fall. I know I will be.

+1. I feel like I have been sitting on the sideline on this, but not this time around.

PKFFW

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #475 on: February 27, 2018, 02:38:52 PM »
I love dog and other pets (have owned plenty of them in my life). If the choice is euthanizing the dog or end up in jail, the dog lose that battle everytime, but hey that just me. I rather to be lonely but have my freedom instead of end up in jail :)
I was going to stay out until this one.

You should absolutely never own a pet, whether you think you can currently afford one or not.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #476 on: February 27, 2018, 06:05:45 PM »
I love dog and other pets (have owned plenty of them in my life). If the choice is euthanizing the dog or end up in jail, the dog lose that battle everytime, but hey that just me. I rather to be lonely but have my freedom instead of end up in jail :)
I was going to stay out until this one.

You should absolutely never own a pet, whether you think you can currently afford one or not.

Also true of guns.

:P

Fireball

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #477 on: February 27, 2018, 06:14:44 PM »
It's really going to come down to whether or not people vote according to this issue this fall. I know I will be.

+1. I feel like I have been sitting on the sideline on this, but not this time around.

+2

Just Joe

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #478 on: February 28, 2018, 11:16:25 AM »
It's really going to come down to whether or not people vote according to this issue this fall. I know I will be.

Me too. Time for the rules to evolve.

SharkStomper

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #479 on: February 28, 2018, 11:44:54 AM »
Can we all just stop acting like we know shit we don't know?

Welcome to the internet, no research or common sense needed here!  Haha

zolotiyeruki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #480 on: February 28, 2018, 02:39:06 PM »
I certainly hope the GOP does something reasonable for gun control, and the democrats don't torpedo it because it "doesn't go too far enough!!!1111!"
As if on cue...that's exactly what the Democrats are currently doing.  The bill in question addresses some of the issues that have contributed to people slipping through the background check system.  It's got bipartisan support, or at least it *had* bipartisan support until the Parkland shooting.  Now the Democrats are trying to stop the bill, because they sense blood in the water and would like to pass something more restrictive.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #481 on: February 28, 2018, 02:52:50 PM »

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #482 on: February 28, 2018, 03:14:23 PM »
An assault weapons ban is not useful and something I do not support. I hope 0 republicans support it.

fuzzy math

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #483 on: February 28, 2018, 06:07:15 PM »
I never thought I'd live to see the day when Walmart restricted gun sales. But here we are, and I feel compelled to say something positive about Walmart, which is giving me major cognitive dissonance. thanks Walmart, you're ... Awesome?

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #484 on: February 28, 2018, 06:36:46 PM »
I never thought I'd live to see the day when Walmart restricted gun sales. But here we are, and I feel compelled to say something positive about Walmart, which is giving me major cognitive dissonance. thanks Walmart, you're ... Awesome?

I'm sure it's just a calculated decision with profit in mind as the bottom line.

Which is interesting in terms of what it implies for what it think the stance of its customer base is regarding gun control. I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.

Fireball

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #485 on: February 28, 2018, 07:51:51 PM »
I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.

Definitely. The county where I grew up voted 92% for Trump in 2016.  When Dick's announced they were restricting guns sales there was much hemming and hawing. Boycott, etc etc. Never stepping foot in there again. When Wal-Mart announced the exact same restrictions - crickets.

Kyle Schuant

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #486 on: February 28, 2018, 08:02:10 PM »
Dick's did the same after Sandy Hook. Then started selling them again. Bottom line always wins.

fuzzy math

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #487 on: February 28, 2018, 08:53:28 PM »
I never thought I'd live to see the day when Walmart restricted gun sales. But here we are, and I feel compelled to say something positive about Walmart, which is giving me major cognitive dissonance. thanks Walmart, you're ... Awesome?

I'm sure it's just a calculated decision with profit in mind as the bottom line.

Which is interesting in terms of what it implies for what it think the stance of its customer base is regarding gun control. I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.


Well, even republicans gotta eat - I can't imagine that a lot of them have many other options in more rural areas, maybe they know the backlash will suck but realize these people won't actually abandon them. I think WM has noticed who their customer base is, and what will happen in 10, 20, 30 yrs if they don't appeal to a younger more liberal (more monied) base. They've done a few things recently that suggest they either have an actual conscience, or they want to attract the other side too.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #488 on: February 28, 2018, 09:00:53 PM »
I never thought I'd live to see the day when Walmart restricted gun sales. But here we are, and I feel compelled to say something positive about Walmart, which is giving me major cognitive dissonance. thanks Walmart, you're ... Awesome?

I'm sure it's just a calculated decision with profit in mind as the bottom line.

Which is interesting in terms of what it implies for what it think the stance of its customer base is regarding gun control. I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.


Well, even republicans gotta eat - I can't imagine that a lot of them have many other options in more rural areas, maybe they know the backlash will suck but realize these people won't actually abandon them. I think WM has noticed who their customer base is, and what will happen in 10, 20, 30 yrs if they don't appeal to a younger more liberal (more monied) base. They've done a few things recently that suggest they either have an actual conscience, or they want to attract the other side too.

Well, that and the fact that majorities of Americans actually favor gun control. Which means that even some conservatives are starting to wake up a little.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #489 on: March 01, 2018, 06:13:22 AM »
I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.

Walmart is the nation's top retailer, practically all Americans shop there.  Why would you think their customers are more conservative - doesn't everyone want a good value?

No one in my circle of friends shops there, because of the way they treat employees. And the way their omnipresence in snall-town America has helped to decimate small businesses in them.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #490 on: March 01, 2018, 06:50:45 AM »
I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.

Walmart is the nation's top retailer, practically all Americans shop there.  Why would you think their customers are more conservative - doesn't everyone want a good value?

Liberals tend to live in urban areas.  Urban areas have fewer Walmarts.  Liberals also tend, imo, to want to support local/small businesses in their area and don't mind paying a slightly higher price to do so.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 06:54:05 AM by DarkandStormy »

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #491 on: March 01, 2018, 06:53:18 AM »
An assault weapons ban is not useful and something I do not support. I hope 0 republicans support it.

Wut.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/02/15/its-time-to-bring-back-the-assault-weapons-ban-gun-violence-experts-say/?utm_term=.1e9fa38ef211



Quote
For his 2016 book “Rampage Nation,” Klarevas collected data on every gun massacre — which he defines as six or more people shot and killed — for the 50 years before 2016. His aim was to see whether there was any change in the number of gun massacres while the 10-year federal ban on assault weapons was in place.

He calls the results “staggering.” Compared with the 10-year period before the ban, the number of gun massacres during the ban period fell by 37 percent, and the number of people dying from gun massacres fell by 43 percent. But after the ban lapsed in 2004, the numbers shot up again — an astonishing 183 percent increase in massacres and a 239 percent increase in massacre deaths.

Explain.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #492 on: March 01, 2018, 06:56:55 AM »
I tend to think of Walmart customers as more on the conservative side.

Walmart is the nation's top retailer, practically all Americans shop there.  Why would you think their customers are more conservative - doesn't everyone want a good value?

No one in my circle of friends shops there, because of the way they treat employees. And the way their omnipresence in snall-town America has helped to decimate small businesses in them.

I don't and know several others who say it's pretty rare they go to Wal-Mart, and frankly I don't think they're the best value much of the time. Groceries are definitely more than where I shop and most other things I would buy there I can get cheaper and choose the one I want from Amazon. I'm not in an urban area but not exactly rural either.

To be fair it probably is a good value for people who don't really analyze prices and just grab what they want because most of their prices are close to the lowest, just not the lowest.

As for taking out other businesses in rural areas, Dollar General seems to be coming in to clean up the scraps. Maybe it's anecdotal but I like to get off the interstate a bit and drive through a lot of small towns in the east coast states. DG's seem to pop up in some unlikely places like small shopping areas where every other building is 50+ years old or dead strip malls where every other unit is dark. Sometimes they seem to be dropped into a field in the middle of nowhere, but they must be making money.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #493 on: March 01, 2018, 07:08:22 AM »
An assault weapons ban is not useful and something I do not support. I hope 0 republicans support it.

Wut.

Quote
For his 2016 book “Rampage Nation,” Klarevas collected data on every gun massacre — which he defines as six or more people shot and killed — for the 50 years before 2016. His aim was to see whether there was any change in the number of gun massacres while the 10-year federal ban on assault weapons was in place.

He calls the results “staggering.” Compared with the 10-year period before the ban, the number of gun massacres during the ban period fell by 37 percent, and the number of people dying from gun massacres fell by 43 percent. But after the ban lapsed in 2004, the numbers shot up again — an astonishing 183 percent increase in massacres and a 239 percent increase in massacre deaths.

Explain.

These are interesting numbers. I would assume the book also contained information on what type of weapon was used in each of the shootings, do you know how many in each time span used a weapon that would be effected by the ban?

ETA: didn't see the linked article at first, it did not answer this question but I may do some more digging when I get a chance.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 07:35:52 AM by Dabnasty »

Secret Stache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #494 on: March 01, 2018, 07:18:16 AM »
Found this a bit disturbing:

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time,” Trump said at a meeting with lawmakers on school safety and gun violence.

“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/376097-trump-take-the-guns-first-go-through-due-process-second


I'm comfortable with some gun control measures being put into place but I'm concerned that an emotional response will, as seen post 9/11, result in the this generation's PATRIOT Act with people's rights being trampled.

NoStacheOhio

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #495 on: March 01, 2018, 07:39:45 AM »
Found this a bit disturbing:

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time,” Trump said at a meeting with lawmakers on school safety and gun violence.

“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/376097-trump-take-the-guns-first-go-through-due-process-second


I'm comfortable with some gun control measures being put into place but I'm concerned that an emotional response will, as seen post 9/11, result in the this generation's PATRIOT Act with people's rights being trampled.

I mean, I don't think he knows what he's talking about at all, but I could see a speedy preliminary injunction type process pending formal proceedings. We do it for plenty of other stuff.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #496 on: March 01, 2018, 07:43:23 AM »
Found this a bit disturbing:

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time,” Trump said at a meeting with lawmakers on school safety and gun violence.

“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/376097-trump-take-the-guns-first-go-through-due-process-second


I'm comfortable with some gun control measures being put into place but I'm concerned that an emotional response will, as seen post 9/11, result in the this generation's PATRIOT Act with people's rights being trampled.

NRA: Do nothing (maybe expand background checks?)

Trump: Trample the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments and ban bump stocks

The Left/The kids: Some or all of - Raise age to buy to 21, ban bump stocks, ban assault weapons, lower/set magazine maximum (ban high-capacity magazines), longer wait period, universal background checks for gun and ammo buyers, ban semi-automatic weapons, ban sales to all violent criminals including domestic abusers

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #497 on: March 01, 2018, 07:44:48 AM »
These are interesting numbers. I would assume the book also contained information on what type of weapon was used in each of the shootings, do you know how many in each time span used a weapon that would be effected by the ban?

ETA: didn't see the linked article at first, it did not answer this question but I may do some more digging when I get a chance.

I haven't read the book so I'd have to do some digging as well.

shenlong55

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #498 on: March 01, 2018, 07:49:37 AM »
Found this a bit disturbing:

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time,” Trump said at a meeting with lawmakers on school safety and gun violence.

“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/376097-trump-take-the-guns-first-go-through-due-process-second


I'm comfortable with some gun control measures being put into place but I'm concerned that an emotional response will, as seen post 9/11, result in the this generation's PATRIOT Act with people's rights being trampled.

I find this funny.  Conservatives were worried about Obama taking their guns.  I wonder what kind of gun control legislation might be passed if there's a democratic wave in the 2018 elections and Trump decides to work with them...

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #499 on: March 01, 2018, 07:50:30 AM »
An assault weapons ban is not useful and something I do not support. I hope 0 republicans support it.

Wut.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/02/15/its-time-to-bring-back-the-assault-weapons-ban-gun-violence-experts-say/?utm_term=.1e9fa38ef211



Quote
For his 2016 book “Rampage Nation,” Klarevas collected data on every gun massacre — which he defines as six or more people shot and killed — for the 50 years before 2016. His aim was to see whether there was any change in the number of gun massacres while the 10-year federal ban on assault weapons was in place.

He calls the results “staggering.” Compared with the 10-year period before the ban, the number of gun massacres during the ban period fell by 37 percent, and the number of people dying from gun massacres fell by 43 percent. But after the ban lapsed in 2004, the numbers shot up again — an astonishing 183 percent increase in massacres and a 239 percent increase in massacre deaths.

Explain.



https://www.statista.com/statistics/476409/mass-shootings-in-the-us-by-weapon-types-used/

The type of weapon is largely fungible, with only marginal differences in effectiveness between types. If one type is banned, the use of a different type would go up similarly. Some of the most deadly shootings were done using shotguns.

If you look at the timeline in this article, you see the frequency picking up in 1999. Right in the middle of the AWB. Some years the frequency wanes, some years it comes back.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/national/mass-shootings-in-america/?utm_term=.5389d997ae2f