Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 98485 times)

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1350 on: June 11, 2018, 12:44:28 PM »

I agree, not just schools, but society overall is safer now than it has ever been, in history.  So tell me again why you need guns?  To protect yourself in an ever-increasingly-safe world?

If society is so much safer, why do you need to ban guns? 

Just pointing out that the "guns keep us safe argument" is based on false assumptions.  The world, especially the West, is the safest it's been in history.  And it's not "guns" keeping you safe - we see strong drops in crime across the boards, even in countries with little or no guns among the populace.  But I don't expect data to change your mind...
  The point is that with crime not really correlated with gun ownership rates, and the country getting safer, why are you so hell bent on taking people's guns?  If everyone is statistically getting safer, then it seems even less justifiable to take guns from the people who need them or even just want them for protection. 


But regardless, I think you are being a little callous to a lot of people who do live in dangerous situations.  While it's pretty unlikely that I will need a gun for safety (at least at my house; not sure what my odds are of being mugged, although I'm guessing still relatively low), there are people who live within five miles of me who cannot say the same.  I don't really think it's fair for me to say they shouldn't be allowed a gun just because I don't need one.

I'm also not sure how much my neighborhood being safe is attributable to the fact that if you break into a house at night, there's a probably greater than 50% chance you are going to come across someone with a gun.  Probably not as much of an impact as being in a neighborhood where the police chief will have to worry about his job if a crime problem takes hold, but probably not a tiny impact either.

Two things.  First, if someone is going to break into a house, if they think the owners are armed, they will simply bring their own guns and will also be much more likely to "shoot first, ask questions later".  The presence of guns escalates a simple b&e to a shootout and probable death.  Remove the guns and the b&e might still happen, but the chances of loss of life drop dramatically.
  You'd need to show some compelling data for this.  I don't think most criminals involved in "petty theft are like, B&E, first degree murder, no diff".  Certainly there are people who are ok with either, but I think many, many of the people who might be open to burglary, will resort to things like busting out car windows and snatching what they can rather than arm themselves for burglary.  At the very least, they will try to work during the day when they think people are less likely

Second, if you talk to cops, like actual cops that work the street, you'll find that very often they are face with the same dilemma: "There's a greater than 50% chance that the suspect on the other side of this door is armed".  So they are also forced to "go in hot" as they say.  Which means they are more likely to shoot quickly out of the (quite correct) assumption that their lives are in immediate danger.

Don't you see how removing guns from the hands of EVERYONE (including the criminals) makes all of these situations safer?  Even for cops.  Especially for cops.  Don't you care about the lives of cops?  Because blue lives do matter.
  As a practical matter, you are not proposing removing the guns from the hands of everyone.  So I am not sure you are moving the needle one way or the other for cops. 

And for everyone else, certainly a gun is more deadly than the alternatives in most situations, but on the flip side, a small female with a gun can be evenly matched with an assailant with a gun if she's moderately trained.  A small female with a bat may not stand a chance against an assailant with a bat, or even an unarmed assailant depending on how big the disparity in size and strength is.   

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1351 on: June 11, 2018, 01:06:43 PM »

I agree, not just schools, but society overall is safer now than it has ever been, in history.  So tell me again why you need guns?  To protect yourself in an ever-increasingly-safe world?

If society is so much safer, why do you need to ban guns? 

Just pointing out that the "guns keep us safe argument" is based on false assumptions.  The world, especially the West, is the safest it's been in history.  And it's not "guns" keeping you safe - we see strong drops in crime across the boards, even in countries with little or no guns among the populace.  But I don't expect data to change your mind...
  The point is that with crime not really correlated with gun ownership rates, and the country getting safer, why are you so hell bent on taking people's guns?  If everyone is statistically getting safer, then it seems even less justifiable to take guns from the people who need them or even just want them for protection. 


But regardless, I think you are being a little callous to a lot of people who do live in dangerous situations.  While it's pretty unlikely that I will need a gun for safety (at least at my house; not sure what my odds are of being mugged, although I'm guessing still relatively low), there are people who live within five miles of me who cannot say the same.  I don't really think it's fair for me to say they shouldn't be allowed a gun just because I don't need one.

I'm also not sure how much my neighborhood being safe is attributable to the fact that if you break into a house at night, there's a probably greater than 50% chance you are going to come across someone with a gun.  Probably not as much of an impact as being in a neighborhood where the police chief will have to worry about his job if a crime problem takes hold, but probably not a tiny impact either.

Two things.  First, if someone is going to break into a house, if they think the owners are armed, they will simply bring their own guns and will also be much more likely to "shoot first, ask questions later".  The presence of guns escalates a simple b&e to a shootout and probable death.  Remove the guns and the b&e might still happen, but the chances of loss of life drop dramatically.
  You'd need to show some compelling data for this.  I don't think most criminals involved in "petty theft are like, B&E, first degree murder, no diff".  Certainly there are people who are ok with either, but I think many, many of the people who might be open to burglary, will resort to things like busting out car windows and snatching what they can rather than arm themselves for burglary.  At the very least, they will try to work during the day when they think people are less likely

Second, if you talk to cops, like actual cops that work the street, you'll find that very often they are face with the same dilemma: "There's a greater than 50% chance that the suspect on the other side of this door is armed".  So they are also forced to "go in hot" as they say.  Which means they are more likely to shoot quickly out of the (quite correct) assumption that their lives are in immediate danger.

Don't you see how removing guns from the hands of EVERYONE (including the criminals) makes all of these situations safer?  Even for cops.  Especially for cops.  Don't you care about the lives of cops?  Because blue lives do matter.
  As a practical matter, you are not proposing removing the guns from the hands of everyone.  So I am not sure you are moving the needle one way or the other for cops. 

And for everyone else, certainly a gun is more deadly than the alternatives in most situations, but on the flip side, a small female with a gun can be evenly matched with an assailant with a gun if she's moderately trained.  A small female with a bat may not stand a chance against an assailant with a bat, or even an unarmed assailant depending on how big the disparity in size and strength is.

Sure, here you go.  It doesn't show precisely rates of homocide during burglary, but it does show the broader point I'm trying to make.  And that point is this:

GRA people think that guns protect them.  In fact, mostly guns embolden and enable criminals. 


http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime


As you can see, when guns are removed from the equation, things like the murder rate go way, way, way down.  And that's given that Australia has similar drug use and rape rates to America, so they are not some abnormal "low crime" country.  They have their share of crime.  What they don't have is a flood of guns and the subsequent crazy high death rate from guns.  We do. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 01:09:47 PM by tyort1 »

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1352 on: June 11, 2018, 01:29:04 PM »
Don't you see how removing guns from the hands of EVERYONE (including the criminals) makes all of these situations safer?


Of course.  But on what planet is that possible?  There are, what, 300M guns out there in the US alone, nevermind what can be snuck over the border.  So this fantasy of "well if we just waved our magic fairy wand and made all the guns disappear we'd all be safer" has fuckall to do with "legal gun owners shouldn't have guns because we can get rid of them for everyone." 

You can't. 

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1353 on: June 11, 2018, 01:35:20 PM »
Right, so when you lose the "guns keep us safe" argument (they don't), then you fall back on the "it's impossible to collect the guns" argument (it's not).

Weak.

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1354 on: June 11, 2018, 01:37:31 PM »
Sure, here you go.  It doesn't show precisely rates of homocide during burglary, but it does show the broader point I'm trying to make.  And that point is this:

GRA people think that guns protect them.  In fact, mostly guns embolden and enable criminals. 


http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime


As you can see, when guns are removed from the equation, things like the murder rate go way, way, way down.  And that's given that Australia has similar drug use and rape rates to America, so they are not some abnormal "low crime" country.  They have their share of crime.  What they don't have is a flood of guns and the subsequent crazy high death rate from guns.  We do.

I would really like to see these two compared while also excluding gang or drug related crime.  Anybody know of where estimates can be had for the % of victims that partook in gangland warfare or participated in drug crime?  That would probably answer quite a few questions...

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1355 on: June 11, 2018, 02:00:16 PM »
Right, so when you lose the "guns keep us safe" argument (they don't), then you fall back on the "it's impossible to collect the guns" argument (it's not).

Weak.

I've never put forth the "guns keep us safe" argument.  I believe there is an existing deterrent effect because houses may or may not be armed, but aside from that I'm not a huge "I'm safer because I have a gun" guy.  I just believe it's a tool that MIGHT help me and therefore I'd rather have it than not.  Same way I have and use fire extinguishers, jack stands, and GFI outlets. 

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1356 on: June 11, 2018, 02:15:13 PM »
They "might" help, you say?

THEY DON'T HELP KEEP YOU SAFER.  THEY ONLY MAKE IT MORE LIKELY YOU'LL GET SHOT BY A CRIMINAL.


That's the whole point of the US/Australia data that I shared earlier.

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1357 on: June 11, 2018, 04:06:38 PM »
Right, so when you lose the "guns keep us safe" argument (they don't), then you fall back on the "it's impossible to collect the guns" argument (it's not).

Weak.

I've never put forth the "guns keep us safe" argument.  I believe there is an existing deterrent effect because houses may or may not be armed, but aside from that I'm not a huge "I'm safer because I have a gun" guy.  I just believe it's a tool that MIGHT help me and therefore I'd rather have it than not.  Same way I have and use fire extinguishers, jack stands, and GFI outlets.

Fire extinguishers, Jack stands, and GFI outlets don't shoot back. You have them because there are low risk high reward. Firearms are the opposite. Thats a weak defense of guns. Also research and statistics show guns are pretty far down on the list of home invasion deterrents.


Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1358 on: June 11, 2018, 04:33:46 PM »
Hey wow yeah you guys are right, I’m dumping all my guns in the lake tonight. Go me!

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1359 on: June 11, 2018, 05:19:17 PM »
Hey wow yeah you guys are right, I’m dumping all my guns in the lake tonight. Go me!

That wouldn't matter, actually.  The problem is a large scale one and needs to be dealt with at that level.  Guns systemically raise the threat level for everyone.  In order for changes to be effective, guns must by systemically removed from the system.  Only then will the overall threat level (and murder rate) drop. 

It's not unlike drunk driving back in the 70's and 80's.  A lot of people did it and most did not see it as a problem.  Till you saw all the stats and all the victims.  Then DUI laws were put in place and systemically enforced.  Which lead to EVERYONE being safer.  In spite of all the carping that people did at the time around "government over-reach" and "I drive better drunk that other people driving sober!" and other such self serving BS arguments. 

The results are clear though - everyone is safer and much less likely to become killed or injured by a drunk driver, thanks to systemic DUI laws.  That same approach is needed for guns. 

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1360 on: June 11, 2018, 08:18:50 PM »
Hey wow yeah you guys are right, I’m dumping all my guns in the lake tonight. Go me!

That's not very mustachian.

px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1361 on: June 13, 2018, 07:52:37 PM »
As you can see, when guns are removed from the equation, things like the murder rate go way, way, way down.  And that's given that Australia has similar drug use and rape rates to America, so they are not some abnormal "low crime" country.  They have their share of crime.  What they don't have is a flood of guns and the subsequent crazy high death rate from guns.  We do.

Numbers are good, but you exclude one very important aspect. The culture. You are comparing numbers but not looking at the source. If you remove the numbers from a subculture, you would find the gun problem is very severe in this subculture. The subculture is not in Australia, just like it isn't in Europe.

Instead of addressing the problem of violence in this subculture, we are concentrating arguments over a tool these criminals choose to use.

I can't find the FBI stats that show how less than 4% of the population (black male 13-25) commit the most homicides.



And this is just the homicide rate. Let's look at the aspect violence too. Would the violence rate suddenly show that this same subculture is peaceful and representative of their percentage in society?

The answer is no. I can't find the breakdown by age, but https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 this link also shows the commission of more than half the robberies occurring in the US. More than double for all violent crime based on population percentage.


TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1362 on: June 13, 2018, 09:42:53 PM »
As you can see, when guns are removed from the equation, things like the murder rate go way, way, way down.  And that's given that Australia has similar drug use and rape rates to America, so they are not some abnormal "low crime" country.  They have their share of crime.  What they don't have is a flood of guns and the subsequent crazy high death rate from guns.  We do.

Numbers are good, but you exclude one very important aspect. The culture. You are comparing numbers but not looking at the source. If you remove the numbers from a subculture, you would find the gun problem is very severe in this subculture. The subculture is not in Australia, just like it isn't in Europe.

Instead of addressing the problem of violence in this subculture, we are concentrating arguments over a tool these criminals choose to use.

I can't find the FBI stats that show how less than 4% of the population (black male 13-25) commit the most homicides.



And this is just the homicide rate. Let's look at the aspect violence too. Would the violence rate suddenly show that this same subculture is peaceful and representative of their percentage in society?

The answer is no. I can't find the breakdown by age, but https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 this link also shows the commission of more than half the robberies occurring in the US. More than double for all violent crime based on population percentage.

Aaaand this thread just took a horrifyingly racist turn...

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1363 on: June 14, 2018, 07:12:33 AM »
Aaaand this thread just took a horrifyingly racist turn...

Is the data wrong?  Is he presenting anything other than numbers here?....

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1364 on: June 14, 2018, 07:54:12 AM »
Aaaand this thread just took a horrifyingly racist turn...

Is the data wrong?  Is he presenting anything other than numbers here?....

Probably not... but is the racial disparity here perhaps better explained by gangs? Gangs, of course, being a consequence of the war on drugs.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1365 on: June 14, 2018, 08:01:34 AM »
Aaaand this thread just took a horrifyingly racist turn...

Is the data wrong?  Is he presenting anything other than numbers here?....

Well, he's using the euphemism of a 'subculture' to refer to black people.  This is how the post reads when that's reverted to apparent intent of the poster:

As you can see, when guns are removed from the equation, things like the murder rate go way, way, way down.  And that's given that Australia has similar drug use and rape rates to America, so they are not some abnormal "low crime" country.  They have their share of crime.  What they don't have is a flood of guns and the subsequent crazy high death rate from guns.  We do.

Numbers are good, but you exclude one very important aspect. Black people. You are comparing numbers but not looking at the source. If you remove the numbers caused by black people, you would find the gun problem is very severe because of those people. There aren't as many black people in Australia, just like there aren't in Europe.

Instead of addressing the problem of violence caused by black people, we are concentrating arguments over a tool these criminals choose to use.

I can't find the FBI stats that show how less than 4% of the population (black male 13-25) commit the most homicides.



And this is just the homicide rate. Let's look at the aspect violence too. Would the violence rate suddenly show that black people are peaceful and representative of their percentage in society?

The answer is no. I can't find the breakdown by age, but https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 this link also shows the commission of more than half the robberies occurring in the US. More than double for all violent crime based on population percentage.

Sure, the numbers are correct.  The conclusion drawn from them is incorrect though.  It's implying causation of gun violence from correlation (race).  When you have any large population of poor people they tend to commit more crimes.  The problem is socioeconomic (inequality causes crime - https://siteresources.worldbank.org/DEC/Resources/Crime%26Inequality.pdf, https://financesonline.com/how-income-inequality-affects-crime-rates/), not racial makeup . . . but by calling it 'cultural' you're allowed to indulge in overtly racist remarks (and also to pass judgement on people for the colour of their skin) while pretending that you're being objective.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1366 on: June 14, 2018, 08:14:27 AM »
Aaaand this thread just took a horrifyingly racist turn...

Is the data wrong?  Is he presenting anything other than numbers here?....

Probably not... but is the racial disparity here perhaps better explained by gangs? Gangs, of course, being a consequence of the war on drugs.

I would like to see a citation for the data, but assuming it's correct I agree with this take on it. Honestly I'm not really sure what px4shooter was getting at after the part where he said the culture is different in the US. I can't disagree with that but I don't see how it relates to this data.

If we're talking about the way gangs and drug trafficking relate to the higher levels of gun violence in the US, that's an important part of the conversation. I don't think trying to address this as "we need to focus on black men ages 13-25" is going to do us any good. What we need to ask is, what are the reasons for the disparity in those numbers? Specific populations don't deviate from normal that significantly without outside influences.

ETA: What Stv said. I try to give the benefit of the doubt but after rereading px4shooter's post (his original, not with culture subbed out for black people) I think he was pretty much blaming black people. If that was not the intention I hope he will elaborate.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 08:24:58 AM by Dabnasty »

TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1367 on: June 14, 2018, 09:19:48 AM »
Yes, the word “subculture” and the implication that the data is this way because of the US having black people is why I called it racist. Newsflash: Australia has a significant native population who are quite dark in color. And they have also been treated abysmally over the years, which is why blacks in our country have such a high poverty rate. Plus they are arrested and sentenced much more harshly simply because of bias that lingers (and statements like that only fuel that bias).

Don’t forget this whole thread started because of a school shooting. That a WHITE MALE did. Nearly ALL school shooters are white males.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 10:32:19 AM by TrudgingAlong »

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1368 on: June 14, 2018, 10:08:56 AM »
Yes, the word “subculture” and the implication that the data is this way because of the US having black peoples is why I called it racist. Newsflash: Australia has a significant native population who are quite dark in color. And they have also been treated abysmally over the years, which is why blacks in our country have such a high poverty rate. Plus they are arrested and sentenced much more harshly simply because of bias that lingers (and statements like that only fuel that bias).

Don’t forget this whole thread started because of a school shooting. That a WHITE MALE did. Nearly ALL school shooters are white males.

Yes, but school shooters are extremely extremely rare statistically.  Throughout Themis thread we’ve talked about “OMG school shootings are terrible (they are)! The US is such a violent place( it isn’t outside a few cultures? Groups? Demographics?)”.

If you want to stop “school shootings” then you attack the problem in one way. If you want to stop “gun violence” sorry, you have to look at urban gangs which are almost all black or Latino. No, it’s not black skin or genetics or whatever that does it, but it’s absurd to say that point out the incredible stratification in the trends is racist. It’s fact. Until you accept the fact, you can’t possibly try to relieve it.

And frankly it isn’t even poverty; what’s the gun violence rate of rural Appalachia? 

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1369 on: June 14, 2018, 10:26:43 AM »
Yes, the word “subculture” and the implication that the data is this way because of the US having black peoples is why I called it racist. Newsflash: Australia has a significant native population who are quite dark in color. And they have also been treated abysmally over the years, which is why blacks in our country have such a high poverty rate. Plus they are arrested and sentenced much more harshly simply because of bias that lingers (and statements like that only fuel that bias).

Don’t forget this whole thread started because of a school shooting. That a WHITE MALE did. Nearly ALL school shooters are white males.

Yes, but school shooters are extremely extremely rare statistically.  Throughout Themis thread we’ve talked about “OMG school shootings are terrible (they are)! The US is such a violent place( it isn’t outside a few cultures? Groups? Demographics?)”.

If you want to stop “school shootings” then you attack the problem in one way. If you want to stop “gun violence” sorry, you have to look at urban gangs which are almost all black or Latino. No, it’s not black skin or genetics or whatever that does it, but it’s absurd to say that point out the incredible stratification in the trends is racist. It’s fact. Until you accept the fact, you can’t possibly try to relieve it.

And frankly it isn’t even poverty; what’s the gun violence rate of rural Appalachia?

OK.  I accept your argument.  (I mean, rural Appalachia has the some of the highest proportion of firearm‐related domestic violence homicide in the US - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ruso.12206, but let's pretend that poverty doesn't matter).

Black and Latino people cause more crime than white people because of their inferior 'culture', not because of poverty.  What are you proposing to do to fix these races of people?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 10:29:32 AM by GuitarStv »

TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1370 on: June 14, 2018, 10:35:44 AM »
An awful lot of cop killings are done by white males, too. And aren’t white, male, gun owners the ones threatening civil war if their guns are taken away? That’s some super peace loving people right there!

I want to kick my naive younger self who really thought this kind of race-BS was over with. Reading shit like this from people who are quite earnest about it still shocks me.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1371 on: June 14, 2018, 12:28:32 PM »
Yes, the word “subculture” and the implication that the data is this way because of the US having black peoples is why I called it racist. Newsflash: Australia has a significant native population who are quite dark in color. And they have also been treated abysmally over the years, which is why blacks in our country have such a high poverty rate. Plus they are arrested and sentenced much more harshly simply because of bias that lingers (and statements like that only fuel that bias).

Don’t forget this whole thread started because of a school shooting. That a WHITE MALE did. Nearly ALL school shooters are white males.

Yes, but school shooters are extremely extremely rare statistically.  Throughout Themis thread we’ve talked about “OMG school shootings are terrible (they are)! The US is such a violent place( it isn’t outside a few cultures? Groups? Demographics?)”.

If you want to stop “school shootings” then you attack the problem in one way. If you want to stop “gun violence” sorry, you have to look at urban gangs which are almost all black or Latino. No, it’s not black skin or genetics or whatever that does it, but it’s absurd to say that point out the incredible stratification in the trends is racist. It’s fact. Until you accept the fact, you can’t possibly try to relieve it.

And frankly it isn’t even poverty; what’s the gun violence rate of rural Appalachia?

Correct. That's not racist. Suggesting that it is because of their "culture" is racist.

If the reference was to gang culture, even that wouldn't be racist. But the way it was posted was to combine those two ideas that don't need to be combined. It serves no purpose other than to incite feelings of racism.

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1372 on: June 14, 2018, 12:38:05 PM »
Aaaand this thread just took a horrifyingly racist turn...

Is the data wrong?  Is he presenting anything other than numbers here?....

Probably not... but is the racial disparity here perhaps better explained by gangs? Gangs, of course, being a consequence of the war on drugs.

You'll find no disagreements from me there.  But how does banning 'Assault Rifles' help fix one of the root causes- Gang Warfare?  How does any gun control really help with that?

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1373 on: June 14, 2018, 01:33:26 PM »
Aaaand this thread just took a horrifyingly racist turn...

Is the data wrong?  Is he presenting anything other than numbers here?....

Probably not... but is the racial disparity here perhaps better explained by gangs? Gangs, of course, being a consequence of the war on drugs.

You'll find no disagreements from me there.  But how does banning 'Assault Rifles' help fix one of the root causes- Gang Warfare?  How does any gun control really help with that?

GRA folks are happy to say that 'gang warfare' or 'culture' or occasionally 'black people' are to blame for gun problems.  They're pretty short on suggesting solutions though.  You're arguing that gun control doesn't really help with that.  OK.  What better solution are you proposing?

Gangs typically come out of places where there are long standing problems with poverty, racism, income inequality, poor education, etc.  These are all areas where the typical GRA fights hard to keep things from changing as well.

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1374 on: June 14, 2018, 01:49:46 PM »
Aaaand this thread just took a horrifyingly racist turn...

Is the data wrong?  Is he presenting anything other than numbers here?....

Probably not... but is the racial disparity here perhaps better explained by gangs? Gangs, of course, being a consequence of the war on drugs.

You'll find no disagreements from me there.  But how does banning 'Assault Rifles' help fix one of the root causes- Gang Warfare?  How does any gun control really help with that?

GRA folks are happy to say that 'gang warfare' or 'culture' or occasionally 'black people' are to blame for gun problems.  They're pretty short on suggesting solutions though.  You're arguing that gun control doesn't really help with that.  OK.  What better solution are you proposing?

Gangs typically come out of places where there are long standing problems with poverty, racism, income inequality, poor education, etc.  These are all areas where the typical GRA fights hard to keep things from changing as well.

Actually I'm fully in favor of legalizing marijuana, and want to decriminalize most all other drug use.  Let keep the serious prison time for violent crimes.

Also, throwing out the globalism mindset and rebuilding manufacturing in the US (even with more autonomous work being done) certainly can't hurt.  Combine that with low minority unemployment and I think progress can be made.

There was a time when a manufacturing worker could be the family bread-winner and solidly middle class.  In 1960, the average manufacturing worker made $2.26 and hour.  Equivalent in today's dollars is $19.41 an hour or $48,000 a year with 5 hours weekly overtime.  Now the average manufacturing worker makes an average of $14.96 an hour, or $36,961.00 per year. 

For a family of 5, that is (1960) 141% the poverty rate (eg family breadwinner status) vs today 109% poverty level.  So you go from comfortable, maybe lower-middle class, to poor-near-poverty in today's manufacturing wages.

But please, don't let the poor lower-middle class get in that way of you saving 100 bucks on your newest iCrap.


Sources:  https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Manufacturing_Worker/Hourly_Rate
https://fraser.stlouisfed.org/content/?item_id=5435&filepath=/files/docs/publications/empbmark/emp_bmark_1909_1990_v1.pdf
https://q1medicare.com/q1group/MedicareAdvantagePartD/Blog/2018-Federal-Poverty-Level-Guidelines--FPL---2018-LIS-Qualifications-and-Benefits/674/8.html

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1375 on: June 14, 2018, 02:09:37 PM »
Interesting.

So, you believe that closed border protectionism and the higher prices it will guarantee for everything you buy will lift people out of poverty?  You believe that high paying low skill work is going to make a comeback in the future?

Upon what information do you base this belief?

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1376 on: June 14, 2018, 02:37:44 PM »
Interesting.

So, you believe that closed border protectionism and the higher prices it will guarantee for everything you buy will lift people out of poverty?  You believe that high paying low skill work is going to make a comeback in the future?

Upon what information do you base this belief?

And out comes the "Low-skill" strawman...

There is nothing low skill about the vast majority of quality manufacturing.  Please be careful, your elitism is showing.

I believe in equal trade.  Particularly when it concerns entire industries.  Once you stack a 10% European tariff or the 0% both-ways Mexico tariffs on US autos with the necessary EPA regulations, corporate tax rate and other non-tariff factors, the discrepancy is huge.  Mexico has no minimum wage, no EPA-type enforcement, no OSHA and no workers-comp, and yet the 0% both-ways NAFTA agreement for autos isn't supposed to strangle American auto manufacturing?

C'mon, I know no one on this forum is that dense...

px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1377 on: June 14, 2018, 03:02:39 PM »
ETA: What Stv said. I try to give the benefit of the doubt but after rereading px4shooter's post (his original, not with culture subbed out for black people) I think he was pretty much blaming black people. If that was not the intention I hope he will elaborate.

I apologize for not explaining a sub-culture better. It is not solely race. It is the sub-culture that exists in the US, which embraces violence, drugs, and degradation of women. The sub-culture that believes in entitlement and believes they have the right to take whatever they want. A sub-culture that romanticizes the murdering and harming of others, while believing women are only their to be sex objects and used at their will. In my community, it branches into all races. And I grew up as part of this sub-culture. When I finally realized what it was, I ran away as fast as I could.

Are numbers racist? The answer is no. These numbers are from the FBI and not a slanted analyzation of data. One may want to blame race, when race is not the issue. Do we see all races in this sub-culture? Yes. Is one race more represented in this sub-culture? I can't say for sure, as this mentality does cross racial lines. There is a predominance of it in certain communities though. Just tune in to some rap music and hear them spout their love for violence. Yes, all races rap, but not all rappers support this sub-culture mentality ;)

When you look at the offenders and their involvement in gangs, drugs, and this sub-culture, you see a link to the crime issues.

Having traveled in various parts of the world, I have recognized this as an issue. We don't see the same sub-culture in other countries. When we want to compare apples to apples, we can't. We have an orange in our bunch, with this sub-culture that is the problem with violence in the US. If we remove our orange, our violence rates are no longer the leader.

Poundwise

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1378 on: June 14, 2018, 03:05:34 PM »
As you can see, when guns are removed from the equation, things like the murder rate go way, way, way down.  And that's given that Australia has similar drug use and rape rates to America, so they are not some abnormal "low crime" country.  They have their share of crime.  What they don't have is a flood of guns and the subsequent crazy high death rate from guns.  We do.

Numbers are good, but you exclude one very important aspect. The culture. You are comparing numbers but not looking at the source. If you remove the numbers from a subculture, you would find the gun problem is very severe in this subculture. The subculture is not in Australia, just like it isn't in Europe.

Instead of addressing the problem of violence in this subculture, we are concentrating arguments over a tool these criminals choose to use.

I can't find the FBI stats that show how less than 4% of the population (black male 13-25) commit the most homicides.



And this is just the homicide rate. Let's look at the aspect violence too. Would the violence rate suddenly show that this same subculture is peaceful and representative of their percentage in society?

The answer is no. I can't find the breakdown by age, but https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 this link also shows the commission of more than half the robberies occurring in the US. More than double for all violent crime based on population percentage.

I'm a little confused by px4shooter's usage of this graphic. I found the source, here.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/66/wr/mm6631a9.htm

I read this graph as telling us who is dying of homicides, rather than who is doing the killing. Am I misunderstanding?

I mean, if it is more black people dying, it's not their subculture doing the killing necessarily. Maybe it's somebody else's.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 03:21:21 PM by Poundwise »

Poundwise

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1379 on: June 14, 2018, 03:13:42 PM »
TBH I do recall seeing stats at some point that black-on-black killings were highest in the US relative to other combinations of race. But I'm not sure that this graph says anything about that.

[edit] I found my old post. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/what-is-your-definition-of-racism/msg1322151/#msg1322151

Quoted below.
Quote
From the FBI data below, it looks to me like a white person is much more likely to be murdered by another white person than by a black person.  Now, I'm too lazy to find the data for more than one year, but let's try to adjust for percentages. It looks like though blacks are a little over 12% of the population, they made up 13.6% of offenders  against whites (409/3005) in 2013.  Aha, bad blacks! But wait-- whites made up 83.5% of murderers (2509/3005) although they are only about 80% of the population (including Hispanic whites). Bad whites! If you're thinking statistically, maybe a white person had better cross the street when approached by another white person.  And maybe a black person had better avoid other black people.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 03:43:09 PM by Poundwise »

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1380 on: June 14, 2018, 03:35:13 PM »
And if you don't believe me that manufcturing drove the results of the Trump election, maybe you will believe the New York Post, Usa Today, The Hill, NY Times, Washington Post, Pew Research, NY Times (again), Daily Beast, The Gaurdian, Project Syndicate and Forbes.  There are plenty more out there saying the same thing.


And while this article from 'World Economic Forum' seeks to discredit Trump's agenda, it makes some very good points...
Quote
Employment in manufacturing fell by more than two million from 2004 to 2014, and now accounts for just over 8% of total employment – continuing a long decline since the 1950s.
Quote
The underlying problem is new technology, specifically information technology, and the way it has transformed the nature of work. As David Autor and David Dorn have shown, many middle-skill, middle-income, middle-class jobs have disappeared.
I would like to note that they haven't disappeared.  Someone, somewhere is still doing the job, they have just disappeared from America.

Quote
In this environment, with so many people insecure about their economic prospects, the push by President Barack Obama’s administration for the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) was a tone-deaf approach, at best. The administration argued that TPP would create some good jobs – and that people who lost jobs as a result could be “compensated.” But such compensation always proves to be minimal and is widely viewed as meaningless. That’s why Trump racked up large majorities in so many working-class bastions that had previously supported Obama.



Or to have it stated by Joan Williams:
Quote
The white working class– it’s very well documented over decades of studies– resents professionals but admires the rich. They resent professionals in part because they see them every day. They’re doctors. They’re teachers. And they feel that those people who are more educated are often looking down on them, feel superior to them, and I must say that Hillary’s deplorable comment seemed to confirm their worst fears, just as Obama’s earlier comment that there are some people who cling to guns and religion.

I don’t really fault these two [Obama and Hillary]. I fault the environment that both of them grew out of, which, while it has been exquisitely attuned to racial and gender disadvantage, some time has really been tone deaf to class disadvantage. So that resentment of professionals, unfortunately, Hilary was perfectly attuned to trigger.
- https://hbr.org/ideacast/2016/11/why-the-white-working-class-voted-for-trump

Quote
NAFTA has cost the U.S. about a million jobs in the 23 years since it came into force, mainly in manufacturing jobs that have moved to Mexico. It’s also helped to drive down real wages, especially in the automotive industry. If the United States withdrew from NAFTA, it would make sense to levy tariffs in the range of 10 percent to 25 percent on Mexican-manufactured imports. It’s likely that businesses would react by immediately halting investment in Mexican production facilities and looking into bringing production back to the United States.
- http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/economy-budget/349664-trumps-global-trade-policies-are-good-for-middle-class



Quote
The job losses here are staggering: In the seven Rust Belt states examined by the USA TODAY Network, more than 700,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost since 2000. Nationally, it’s some 7 million manufacturing jobs since 1980.

And while unemployment is down steeply in the aftermath of the last recession and some manufacturing gains have been seen, wages have declined or stayed flat in current dollars.

It’s a situation Trump’s supporters believe he will change, despite global forces arrayed against him.
- https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/01/18/rust-belt-voters-donald-trump/96670922/


The rise of China may have been a convenient source of cheap labor and more recently investment capital and lots of full load tuitions for universities, but according to the left-leaning Economic Policy Institute, our deficit cost the country 3.4 million jobs, most in manufacturing.
https://www.epi.org/publication/growth-in-u-s-china-trade-deficit-between-2001-and-2015-cost-3-4-million-jobs-heres-how-to-rebalance-trade-and-rebuild-american-manufacturing/

Aaron Renn describes this as “the decoupling of success in America. Those who are succeeding in America no longer need the overall prosperity of the country to personally do well. They can become enriched as a small, albeit sizable, minority.”



(Edit to add)
And maybe if you won't listen to me, you will listen to your homeboy Bill:
Quote
Clinton expressed his frustration with the most recent (at that time) Democratic debate, which he said lacked a single mention of the fact that “84 percent of the American people, after inflation, had not had a raise of 1 cent since the financial crash.”


“We have incredible debates all over America that shouldn’t exist between people in different racial groups because they don’t trust law enforcement anymore,” he continued. “And in the middle of all this we learned, breathtakingly, that middle-aged, non-college-educated white Americans’ life expectancy is going down and is now lower than Hispanics, even though they make less money.”

“And the gap between African Americans and whites is closing, but unfortunately not because the death rate among African Americans is dropping but because the death rate among white Americans is rising.” Clinton continued.

“Why? Because they don’t have anything to look forward to when they get up in the morning. Because their lives are sort of stuck in neutral. Because their lives are sort of stuck in neutral.”
http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/07/leaked-bill-clinton-speech-obama-years-left-no-hope-for-white-working-class/




What does all this have to do with firearms deaths?

Well its pretty simple, when the only choices for a teen barely graduating MLK High in Detroit are (1) selling drugs, (2) joining the Army or (3) joblessness, and it is possible to open up your so-called 'low-skill jobs' to that teen.  I would say that a pretty big fucking improvement.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 03:52:05 PM by TexasRunner »

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1381 on: June 14, 2018, 03:55:35 PM »
TBH I do recall seeing stats at some point that black-on-black killings were highest in the US relative to other combinations of race. But I'm not sure that this graph says anything about that.

[edit] I found my old post. https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/what-is-your-definition-of-racism/msg1322151/#msg1322151

Quoted below.
Quote
From the FBI data below, it looks to me like a white person is much more likely to be murdered by another white person than by a black person.  Now, I'm too lazy to find the data for more than one year, but let's try to adjust for percentages. It looks like though blacks are a little over 12% of the population, they made up 13.6% of offenders  against whites (409/3005) in 2013.  Aha, bad blacks! But wait-- whites made up 83.5% of murderers (2509/3005) although they are only about 80% of the population (including Hispanic whites). Bad whites! If you're thinking statistically, maybe a white person had better cross the street when approached by another white person.  And maybe a black person had better avoid other black people.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls

Take a look at the 'offenders' table from the Bureau of Justice Statistics snippet on murders.


https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

It is not a race problem, that is correlation.  It is a gang and drug problem.

Hence my long post upthread about expanding America's job base for all tiers of education, including middle-skill.

Poundwise

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1382 on: June 14, 2018, 04:08:54 PM »
Got it, I just noticed that something didn't work with px4shooter's use of that graph to make that particular point.

TexasRunner, I will buy that joblessness and lack of opportunities will increase violence, homicides, and suicides in general, and gun assisted deaths in particular.

On the other hand, if all that Americans had to kill one another with were bananas, we'd  see fewer deaths no matter how despairing and dead-end their lives were. And it's not like other developed countries like Greece are strangers to unemployment. They have lower rates of gun ownership though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Gun control AND providing good jobs would be even better than gun control.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 04:10:30 PM by Poundwise »

Poundwise

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1383 on: June 14, 2018, 04:12:44 PM »
Just found this article... not sure if it has come up in this thread before. "America doesn’t have more crime than other rich countries. It just has more guns." 

https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1384 on: June 14, 2018, 04:19:02 PM »

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1385 on: June 14, 2018, 04:30:34 PM »
On the other hand, if all that Americans had to kill one another with were bananas, we'd  see fewer deaths no matter how despairing and dead-end their lives were. And it's not like other developed countries like Greece are strangers to unemployment. They have lower rates of gun ownership though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Gun control AND providing good jobs would be even better than gun control.

Maybe...

Maybe not.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/04/03/londons-murder-rate-higher-than-new-york-citys/480860002/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/

Considering how other (much smaller and more easily controlled) countries such as the UK still have firearm murders, and then have a much larger percentage of knife or fixed blade murders to fill the gap left by unavailability of firearms, I wouldn't be so sure that removing firearms would help nearly as much as focusing on gang crime.

Not to mention there is no magical firearm-erasing fairy.  Plus chop-shops can always pop up in our great expanse of a nation to fill the economic black-market void, see: Toronto.  If we think we can get rid of all the drugs by making them illegal (we can't), why on earth does the left think that same philosophy will work with firearms.  I would dare to venture that it is easier to machine a full-auto AK than cook methamphetamine...  Wouldn't you agree?  They are at least on the same level of complexity.

If anyone can find a report on the gun deaths (including suicides) once gang-vs-gang type of crime is removed, I would really like to find it.  So far I haven't found anything close enough.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1386 on: June 14, 2018, 08:11:08 PM »
Interesting.

So, you believe that closed border protectionism and the higher prices it will guarantee for everything you buy will lift people out of poverty?  You believe that high paying low skill work is going to make a comeback in the future?

Upon what information do you base this belief?

And out comes the "Low-skill" strawman...

There is nothing low skill about the vast majority of quality manufacturing.  Please be careful, your elitism is showing.

I worked for several years doing manufacturing jobs working on different production lines in automotive manufacturing.  Loading/unloading a pallet doesn't require any skill or training.  The 10 - 20 minutes required to learn a new section of the production line was about as intensive as it gets.  I referred to them as low skilled jobs, because the majority of them are low skilled jobs.

Having low skilled jobs is kinda a requirement for you were proposing anyway - which (if you'll remember) was providing jobs to people who don't have significant employable skills, or much education . . . these are the people who end up in gangs.  Hardworking, skilled, and smart people tend to be able to escape that situation.



I believe in equal trade.  Particularly when it concerns entire industries.  Once you stack a 10% European tariff or the 0% both-ways Mexico tariffs on US autos with the necessary EPA regulations, corporate tax rate and other non-tariff factors, the discrepancy is huge.  Mexico has no minimum wage, no EPA-type enforcement, no OSHA and no workers-comp, and yet the 0% both-ways NAFTA agreement for autos isn't supposed to strangle American auto manufacturing?

C'mon, I know no one on this forum is that dense...

It's really weird to hear people with a right wing viewpoint admitting that the free market doesn't work and advocating for increased government controls.  This viewpoint switcharoo is one of the strangest things that Trump has achieved in his presidency.

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1387 on: June 15, 2018, 06:52:57 AM »
It's really weird to hear people with a right wing viewpoint admitting that the free market doesn't work and advocating for increased government controls.  This viewpoint switcharoo is one of the strangest things that Trump has achieved in his presidency.

Actually completely open markets would be fine IF there weren't such burdens on the employers of one country and not another.

I would be fine with a NAFTA for all items type of scenario between USA and Mexico provided Mexico accepted and enforced the EPA, OSHA and the same minimum wage laws (along with all the other thousands of regulations).  That would make it an even playing field.  The unevenness comes from USA's higher regulations (whose merits can be discussed separately) not being applied across all 'competing nations'.

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1388 on: June 15, 2018, 07:07:09 AM »
School shootings, mass shootings assuming the killer is apprehended and confirmed as most are, should have an expedited death penalty. One week from the shooting at the latest and public.

I have read many of the posts here but I feel like these shooters are attempting to emulate the other shooters. That Colorado theater shooter is still in the news, the Florida shooter is getting pallets of fan mail. The media is making them famous and too many are looking to them as role models. Lawyers are trying to find ways to free them, citing insanity or upbringing.

Putting them down in the street, in public, quickly will discourage the next youth from choosing that path and give faster closure to the families of victims.

DarkandStormy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1389 on: June 15, 2018, 07:25:09 AM »
School shootings, mass shootings assuming the killer is apprehended and confirmed as most are, should have an expedited death penalty. One week from the shooting at the latest and public.


Putting them down in the street, in public, quickly will discourage the next youth from choosing that path and give faster closure to the families of victims.

I'm sorry, is this a democracy in 2018?  Jesus.

Chris22

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1390 on: June 15, 2018, 07:26:59 AM »
School shootings, mass shootings assuming the killer is apprehended and confirmed as most are, should have an expedited death penalty. One week from the shooting at the latest and public.

I have read many of the posts here but I feel like these shooters are attempting to emulate the other shooters. That Colorado theater shooter is still in the news, the Florida shooter is getting pallets of fan mail. The media is making them famous and too many are looking to them as role models. Lawyers are trying to find ways to free them, citing insanity or upbringing.

Putting them down in the street, in public, quickly will discourage the next youth from choosing that path and give faster closure to the families of victims.

How many are taken alive anyways?  How many expect to be taken alive?  I think most of these guys go in as a suicide mission and planning to take down as many people as they perceived “wronged” them in the process.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1391 on: June 15, 2018, 08:05:12 AM »
School shootings, mass shootings assuming the killer is apprehended and confirmed as most are, should have an expedited death penalty. One week from the shooting at the latest and public.


Putting them down in the street, in public, quickly will discourage the next youth from choosing that path and give faster closure to the families of victims.

I'm sorry, is this a democracy in 2018?  Jesus.

This is why our democracy is in the state it's in in 2018...

ncornilsen

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1392 on: June 15, 2018, 08:07:19 AM »
School shootings, mass shootings assuming the killer is apprehended and confirmed as most are, should have an expedited death penalty. One week from the shooting at the latest and public.

I have read many of the posts here but I feel like these shooters are attempting to emulate the other shooters. That Colorado theater shooter is still in the news, the Florida shooter is getting pallets of fan mail. The media is making them famous and too many are looking to them as role models. Lawyers are trying to find ways to free them, citing insanity or upbringing.

Putting them down in the street, in public, quickly will discourage the next youth from choosing that path and give faster closure to the families of victims.

How many are taken alive anyways?  How many expect to be taken alive?  I think most of these guys go in as a suicide mission and planning to take down as many people as they perceived “wronged” them in the process.

Seems like the only ones taken alive are ones who were too cowardly to off themselves at the end of it.

It seems the notoriety is no small part of it. That should be taken away from them... they should only be referred to as something they'd find denigrating - "soy boy 12" or "tiny hands 11"  and their name somewhat ignored. It wouldn't stop all of them, but it might help. Given the first amendment, not sure how we'd do that though.

RetiredAt63

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1393 on: June 15, 2018, 08:18:15 AM »
It's really weird to hear people with a right wing viewpoint admitting that the free market doesn't work and advocating for increased government controls.  This viewpoint switcharoo is one of the strangest things that Trump has achieved in his presidency.

Actually completely open markets would be fine IF there weren't such burdens on the employers of one country and not another.

I would be fine with a NAFTA for all items type of scenario between USA and Mexico provided Mexico accepted and enforced the EPA, OSHA and the same minimum wage laws (along with all the other thousands of regulations).  That would make it an even playing field.  The unevenness comes from USA's higher regulations (whose merits can be discussed separately) not being applied across all 'competing nations'.

I have heard (do not have details) that Canada has been pushing for labour related issues to be incorporated into NAFTA that the US does not like - so the gradient (in general) seems to be Canada - US - Mexico.  I don't know if maternity leave is one of our issues, but in general Canadians are appalled at American maternity leave policy.  And health care, and a bunch of other social issues you have.  Our pollution laws are national at the federal level and then the provinces can go stricter, so that may be an area that you are doing better than we are (as long as regulations are enforced, which can be an issue in any jurisdiction, especially if it is feeling a bit short financially).  I know for some air pollution issues Ontario is definitely laxer than both the US and the EU, and I would love to see them toughened up.  I am sure our Dougie would scream about Federal interference in provincial jurisdictions though.

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1394 on: June 15, 2018, 08:42:49 AM »
It's really weird to hear people with a right wing viewpoint admitting that the free market doesn't work and advocating for increased government controls.  This viewpoint switcharoo is one of the strangest things that Trump has achieved in his presidency.

Actually completely open markets would be fine IF there weren't such burdens on the employers of one country and not another.

I would be fine with a NAFTA for all items type of scenario between USA and Mexico provided Mexico accepted and enforced the EPA, OSHA and the same minimum wage laws (along with all the other thousands of regulations).  That would make it an even playing field.  The unevenness comes from USA's higher regulations (whose merits can be discussed separately) not being applied across all 'competing nations'.

I have heard (do not have details) that Canada has been pushing for labour related issues to be incorporated into NAFTA that the US does not like - so the gradient (in general) seems to be Canada - US - Mexico.  I don't know if maternity leave is one of our issues, but in general Canadians are appalled at American maternity leave policy.  And health care, and a bunch of other social issues you have.  Our pollution laws are national at the federal level and then the provinces can go stricter, so that may be an area that you are doing better than we are (as long as regulations are enforced, which can be an issue in any jurisdiction, especially if it is feeling a bit short financially).  I know for some air pollution issues Ontario is definitely laxer than both the US and the EU, and I would love to see them toughened up.  I am sure our Dougie would scream about Federal interference in provincial jurisdictions though.

Exactly.  The same points apply.  If things were truly equal, then this free-trade advocate would be all for 0% tariffs- but that isn't how the world worlds.  As such, some slight barriers to trade are better for Canadians and Americans.


Some relevant points from Joan William's podcast:
Quote
Number one is to give [American Workers] respect, not to say they’re just stupid. The second thing is to realize that these trade deals– they are good for GDP, but they are really bad for some American workers, and that means if we ever again get to a situation where we can possibly have a trade deal, these trade deals are more expensive than we’ve been thinking of them and as, because we need to provide transition assistance to the American workers whose jobs leave for Vietnam.
- https://hbr.org/ideacast/2016/11/why-the-white-working-class-voted-for-trump

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1395 on: June 15, 2018, 09:53:20 AM »
So MAGA is basically code for "abandon free trade" as a Republican policy.  Because you are right, free trade is great for GDP (and the S&P 500, which most of us around here invest in).  BUT, the reason free trade is good for GDP is because it's good for corporations.  And the reason it's good for corporations is it lets them more easily screw over American workers. 

So if you're pro business (as a party), its a bit of a conundrum.  Because unfettered free trade is undoubtedly good for companies, and just as undoubtedly bad for workers (some more than others).  So which do you support?  Capital, or Labor?  Seems like the working class people are finally waking up to the fact that the things that are good for the corporations are not actually good for the workers, and very little will 'trickle down' to them. 

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1396 on: June 15, 2018, 10:09:39 AM »
So MAGA is basically code for "abandon free trade" as a Republican policy.  Because you are right, free trade is great for GDP (and the S&P 500, which most of us around here invest in).  BUT, the reason free trade is good for GDP is because it's good for corporations.  And the reason it's good for corporations is it lets them more easily screw over American workers. 

So if you're pro business (as a party), its a bit of a conundrum.  Because unfettered free trade is undoubtedly good for companies, and just as undoubtedly bad for workers (some more than others).  So which do you support?  Capital, or Labor?  Seems like the working class people are finally waking up to the fact that the things that are good for the corporations are not actually good for the workers, and very little will 'trickle down' to them. 

Aaron Renn describes this as “the decoupling of success in America. Those who are succeeding in America no longer need the overall prosperity of the country to personally do well. They can become enriched as a small, albeit sizable, minority.”

I'm not going to disagree with you.  But considering the accusations of RINO have been flying around for a decade on the right (and don't forget about the rise of the Tea Party), there is very much a shift in the fundamental economic concepts of the right at the grassroots level.

Hopefully that is picked up on by those in power, but I doubt it.  Both sides are bought out so much by special interests that it is going to take drastic steps to remove the reins from a select few with over-sized influence.

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1397 on: June 15, 2018, 10:30:49 AM »
So MAGA is basically code for "abandon free trade" as a Republican policy.  Because you are right, free trade is great for GDP (and the S&P 500, which most of us around here invest in).  BUT, the reason free trade is good for GDP is because it's good for corporations.  And the reason it's good for corporations is it lets them more easily screw over American workers. 

So if you're pro business (as a party), its a bit of a conundrum.  Because unfettered free trade is undoubtedly good for companies, and just as undoubtedly bad for workers (some more than others).  So which do you support?  Capital, or Labor?  Seems like the working class people are finally waking up to the fact that the things that are good for the corporations are not actually good for the workers, and very little will 'trickle down' to them. 

Aaron Renn describes this as “the decoupling of success in America. Those who are succeeding in America no longer need the overall prosperity of the country to personally do well. They can become enriched as a small, albeit sizable, minority.”

I'm not going to disagree with you.  But considering the accusations of RINO have been flying around for a decade on the right (and don't forget about the rise of the Tea Party), there is very much a shift in the fundamental economic concepts of the right at the grassroots level.

Hopefully that is picked up on by those in power, but I doubt it.  Both sides are bought out so much by special interests that it is going to take drastic steps to remove the reins from a select few with over-sized influence.

The irony, of course (if you study political history) is that the Democrats used to be the party of "the working man".  The Repubs were historically the party of big business, and the Dems were the party of the workers.  And that worked well because there was a balance and a real choice (economically and politically speaking).  But race is such a huge issue in this country, particularly the South, that when the Dems went for being the party of equal opportunity and fighting for minorities, all the working class white voters abandoned the party to become Repubs, who were more than willing to welcome in all the "blue dog dems" as they were known at the time. 

If the Dems are smart, they'll circle back and start re-connecting with their original message of fighting for the working man.  I think they can do it.  I think that's more likely to happen than for the Repubs to suddenly abandon big business, because big business is their bread and butter.  Plus, big business is were the VAST majority of Repub funding comes from. 

Or, maybe a viable 3rd party will finally emerge?  Dunno.

What I do know is that we'd all be safer if we could get this gun issue under control (haha, that's my attempt to keep this tangentially on topic!)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 10:32:20 AM by tyort1 »

rocketpj

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1398 on: June 15, 2018, 05:15:42 PM »
School shootings, mass shootings assuming the killer is apprehended and confirmed as most are, should have an expedited death penalty. One week from the shooting at the latest and public.

I have read many of the posts here but I feel like these shooters are attempting to emulate the other shooters. That Colorado theater shooter is still in the news, the Florida shooter is getting pallets of fan mail. The media is making them famous and too many are looking to them as role models. Lawyers are trying to find ways to free them, citing insanity or upbringing.

Putting them down in the street, in public, quickly will discourage the next youth from choosing that path and give faster closure to the families of victims.

How many are taken alive anyways?  How many expect to be taken alive?  I think most of these guys go in as a suicide mission and planning to take down as many people as they perceived “wronged” them in the process.

Seems like the only ones taken alive are ones who were too cowardly to off themselves at the end of it.

It seems the notoriety is no small part of it. That should be taken away from them... they should only be referred to as something they'd find denigrating - "soy boy 12" or "tiny hands 11"  and their name somewhat ignored. It wouldn't stop all of them, but it might help. Given the first amendment, not sure how we'd do that though.

I've often thought that there would be a decent benefit to retroactively dig deep into the past and changing the name and all references to a shooter to 'Pathetic Loser'.  Change his birth certificate, school yearbooks, licenses, report cards, everything that ever referred to him.  Make it law (or as close as possible) that all public references describe him as 'the pathetic loser' rather than his name.

It would be costly and in some ways silly, but not as costly as many of the other options.  The whole 'blaze of glory' bullshit would change if you knew that all future and past references to you would not even use your name, but only 'Pathetic loser'.

gaja

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1399 on: June 16, 2018, 07:50:34 AM »
School shootings, mass shootings assuming the killer is apprehended and confirmed as most are, should have an expedited death penalty. One week from the shooting at the latest and public.

I have read many of the posts here but I feel like these shooters are attempting to emulate the other shooters. That Colorado theater shooter is still in the news, the Florida shooter is getting pallets of fan mail. The media is making them famous and too many are looking to them as role models. Lawyers are trying to find ways to free them, citing insanity or upbringing.

Putting them down in the street, in public, quickly will discourage the next youth from choosing that path and give faster closure to the families of victims.

How many are taken alive anyways?  How many expect to be taken alive?  I think most of these guys go in as a suicide mission and planning to take down as many people as they perceived “wronged” them in the process.

Seems like the only ones taken alive are ones who were too cowardly to off themselves at the end of it.

It seems the notoriety is no small part of it. That should be taken away from them... they should only be referred to as something they'd find denigrating - "soy boy 12" or "tiny hands 11"  and their name somewhat ignored. It wouldn't stop all of them, but it might help. Given the first amendment, not sure how we'd do that though.

I've often thought that there would be a decent benefit to retroactively dig deep into the past and changing the name and all references to a shooter to 'Pathetic Loser'.  Change his birth certificate, school yearbooks, licenses, report cards, everything that ever referred to him.  Make it law (or as close as possible) that all public references describe him as 'the pathetic loser' rather than his name.

It would be costly and in some ways silly, but not as costly as many of the other options.  The whole 'blaze of glory' bullshit would change if you knew that all future and past references to you would not even use your name, but only 'Pathetic loser'.

This is a much better solution than killing them. The asshole bawbag (ABB) who killed 69 kids on Utøya in Norway was very disappointed that the police didn't kill him when he was arrested. He also fought hard to avoid being declared mentally unfit to stand trial. He dreamt about becoming a martyr, and he would have loved a public execution.

People who kill kids do not think logically. They are not stopped by things that normal (healthy) people fear, like getting killed or hurt.