Author Topic: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days  (Read 87516 times)

TrudgingAlong

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1050 on: April 25, 2018, 11:46:26 PM »
After reading through the last page or so of replies, plus this article today: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-dcfs-daycare-gun-ban-20180418-story.html. , I feel so justified in my distrust of gun owners with my kids. Definitely going to have to reinforce to my kids they are not allowed in ANYONEíS house where I know a weapon is there. Whether I trust them or not (I donít because they are KIDS), I equally do not trust any other children present or the ďresponsibleĒ gun owner who might be lying to me.

What. The. Fuck.

caracarn

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1051 on: April 26, 2018, 07:49:30 AM »

I have a loaded, unsecured firearm in my house all of the time.  It's an old shotgun with a few in the pipe and none in the chamber.  It's somewhere in my bedroom. Aside from the fact that my kid has been trained over and over and over to never ever ever touch the gun, and that she shouldn't be in our bedroom without us anyways, I'm confident that she isn't capable of picking up the thing (which weighs about 20% of her body weight) and manipulating the action to load it.  She's not strong enough and the gun is too big for her to work.

That's a very different scenario than if I had a Glock handgun (no active safety) that I left loaded with one in the chamber in my nightstand and my kid or her friend could pick up and fire with little to no effort at all.

But both are "unsecured loaded firearms", but I think you can see how it isn't the same situation.  Therefore, the rules I have for each are different.  And if my kid was, say, a 12 year old boy instead of a 5 year old girl, I might use a different storage solution, and my solution may well evolve as my kid ages.



Holy shit.  This keeps me up at night.  I assume that, if I were to meet your family IRL, I would have no way of knowing that you were the kind of person who kept a loaded weapon accessible to children.  What happens during a playdate if an older sibling tags along who can lift that loaded shotgun?  When people ask you about gun storage before they let their kids come over, what do you say, or is that not a thing where you live?  Do you put the gun up when you have guests?

Why is any kid in my master bedroom?  The way my house is set up, you canít accidetnally be in there and accidentally stumble upon the gun.

No one has ever asked me about guns in my home.
Is that going to be your defense when a kid finds the gun and shoots someone?   "Your honor, no one has ever asked me about guns in my home."  This whole description would be funny if the topic was not so serious.  So you think the kids that find firearms only do so because the layout of the house allowed it but somehow no kid can get through the labyrinth of mayhem that it takes to get to your room?  Or are you saying their is a guard or surveillance camera or trip wire setup so that you know someone is on the way and can intercept them?

caracarn

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1052 on: April 26, 2018, 08:01:24 AM »

Except, ya know, firearms accidents are a tiny TINY slice of deaths.  "Fixing the death rate" is a left dog-whistle for ignoring real statistics.  Firearms accidents (and adolescent murders outside of gang-related warfare) are basically non-existent in our 320 million population. 

In actual numbers, its 82 kids lost per year to firearm accidental fatalities.  82 out of 320 million.  82 out of 100 million gun owners.  That is 0.082 per 100,000 gun owners.  Or 1 death per 1,218,000 gun owners.  Why do you want to restrict the rights of 1,217,999 gun owners because of One idiot, when there are already laws on the books to punish that idiot?

All per this study:  http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486
(<-  See what I did there!  Actual Data!)

I'm not sure how you felt all my ire was based only on firearms accidents.  When I refer the the death rate I mean anyone who is killed by a gun for any reason.  That number should be as close to zero as possible.  I don't honestly care about statistics because there is not an acceptable rate of death for something I do not consider a necessity to exist in the world.  Therefore my assessment is based on treating a gun as a luxury, and lining up what might be OK for injuries caused by that luxury.  For example, I understand people drown in swimming pools, but I also feel that the frequency of that would not warrant further involvement of laws.  Responsible pool owners usually fence their pool, put a lock on the gate or do other things to minimize accidental drowning from a toddler falling in.  If death did occur as a result my pool, I'd certainly be able to be punished for that.  Yet somehow you feel a gun, which has much less of a joyful purpose to exist, as a pool does should be treated differently?  I'll answer for you.  Your answer is yes because it is a constitutional right, and there we circle back to my rationale for why this protection is not warranted for something not needed for a good and happy life.  Free speech is important for that.  Having a gun, not so much.

The fear mongering of we should all shiver in fear when we talk casually about taking away constitutional rights carries little weight.  The Second Amendment is so unique that it is not hard for most people to understand.  It is only in trying to keep it protected are the arguments used to try to create the false equivalency.  The only thing the Second Amendment really has in common with the others with respect to protecting a good and happy life is that is an amendment and that it is in the Constitution.

caracarn

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1053 on: April 26, 2018, 08:14:34 AM »
I have to admit that my mind is kind of blown (no pun intended) by the idea that someone can have an unsecured loaded weapon in a house with young children and think they are a responsible gun owner.  I am going to be a lot more skeptical of anyone claiming to be a responsible gun owner in the future.  This has been a good lesson for me.  People self-reporting how responsible they are with guns is like people saying they are good drivers: lots of them are wrong.

Agreed.  Not only are people like this engaging in irresponsible behavior, but they can't see how irresponsible it is, not even when it's directly pointed out to them. 

Which is why we need a law - guns get locked up.  Period.  And the law needs to be vigorously enforced.

I had a gun rack locker hanging in my bedroom growing up (probably starting around 12-13).  Most friends did too.  We would routinely unlock and grab our guns for snake protection and walk dry creek beds or go hunting at night for raccoons or shoot skeet on our own.  Some of my fondest memories.  This was in a rural community that rarely saw any gun violence and if it did, it was just a by-product of other criminal activity.  That community operates exactly the same now as it did then. 

Just thought I'd add my anecdote for some additional flavor in this conversation.

I fixed that for you, so you can see how DRASTICALLY different having a "lock up your gun" law would have affected your life (hint, almost zero impact).

True, not disagreeing with that.  I donít have any issue with the current laws or most of the proposals here for tighter restrictions.  I think either changing them or leaving them wonít do much either way and will have little If any effect on me personally.  I just wanted to illustrate that in some regional/local cultures having guns in the home accessible to minors is not inherently dangerous.
This is where the issue arises.  It is dangerous, just at an acceptable level of danger to you.  None of you or your friends got hurt, but some children in homes did.  I did not miss the fact that you indicated low criminal activity but there could still have been gun accidents, and as has already been discussed by some in this thread, gun owners for some reason sometimes find guns falling on the floor funny.  If I have a large DVD cabinet in my home not tethered to the wall, it can call over and kill someone, yet many times people just toss away the strap that comes with the product to keep the manufacturer from getting sued by the fool who just throws the strap away.  The world is full of people thinking things are not inherently dangerous that in fact are.  That DVD cabinet is constantly loaded with inertia and weight that can crush a human being in much the same way a gun is constantly ready to be used to shoot a projectile.  Saying neither of those things are dangerous is just choosing to adopt a different perspective on what constitutes danger.

Secret Stache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1054 on: April 26, 2018, 08:28:19 AM »
I have to admit that my mind is kind of blown (no pun intended) by the idea that someone can have an unsecured loaded weapon in a house with young children and think they are a responsible gun owner.  I am going to be a lot more skeptical of anyone claiming to be a responsible gun owner in the future.  This has been a good lesson for me.  People self-reporting how responsible they are with guns is like people saying they are good drivers: lots of them are wrong.

Agreed.  Not only are people like this engaging in irresponsible behavior, but they can't see how irresponsible it is, not even when it's directly pointed out to them. 

Which is why we need a law - guns get locked up.  Period.  And the law needs to be vigorously enforced.

I had a gun rack locker hanging in my bedroom growing up (probably starting around 12-13).  Most friends did too.  We would routinely unlock and grab our guns for snake protection and walk dry creek beds or go hunting at night for raccoons or shoot skeet on our own.  Some of my fondest memories.  This was in a rural community that rarely saw any gun violence and if it did, it was just a by-product of other criminal activity.  That community operates exactly the same now as it did then. 

Just thought I'd add my anecdote for some additional flavor in this conversation.

I fixed that for you, so you can see how DRASTICALLY different having a "lock up your gun" law would have affected your life (hint, almost zero impact).

True, not disagreeing with that.  I donít have any issue with the current laws or most of the proposals here for tighter restrictions.  I think either changing them or leaving them wonít do much either way and will have little If any effect on me personally.  I just wanted to illustrate that in some regional/local cultures having guns in the home accessible to minors is not inherently dangerous.
This is where the issue arises.  It is dangerous, just at an acceptable level of danger to you.  None of you or your friends got hurt, but some children in homes did.  I did not miss the fact that you indicated low criminal activity but there could still have been gun accidents, and as has already been discussed by some in this thread, gun owners for some reason sometimes find guns falling on the floor funny.  If I have a large DVD cabinet in my home not tethered to the wall, it can call over and kill someone, yet many times people just toss away the strap that comes with the product to keep the manufacturer from getting sued by the fool who just throws the strap away.  The world is full of people thinking things are not inherently dangerous that in fact are.  That DVD cabinet is constantly loaded with inertia and weight that can crush a human being in much the same way a gun is constantly ready to be used to shoot a projectile.  Saying neither of those things are dangerous is just choosing to adopt a different perspective on what constitutes danger.

Fair enough, I probably should have said "...is an acceptable custom.."  vs "...not inherently dangerous"

dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1055 on: April 26, 2018, 09:15:05 AM »
Iím glad that your kids wonít be coming to my home.  If they are old enough to be unsupervised and can ransack thru the house to find a firearm and know how to load it.  They should know better.  Iíd be worried that these same kids, if they couldnít find the firearms, could probably get out the kitchen knives and kill each other with those.  And what about the matches to start the grill? They could burn down the whole neighborhood.  Then there are the cleaning supplies.  And they probably wouldnít have enough sense to stay out of the pool either.


GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1056 on: April 26, 2018, 09:37:43 AM »
Look at all the false equivalencies.

You know this, but it bears pointing out . . . a knife is not as dangerous as a gun.  Not remotely.  It's possible to cut yourself with one, sure.  It's very difficult to accidentally kill someone with one.  Guns are designed to make it easy to kill someone - even if you are very weak.  It's therefore easy to accidentally kill someone with a gun.  That's why there are hundreds of children who die each year from firearms wielded by themselves (or other children), and very few who die from knife wounds by other children.

Matches and cleaning supplies are dangerous, and shouldn't be kept in a location where they're accessible by young children.  Failing to do this is unsafe behaviour.  If you're leaving young kids unsupervised around a pool well yeah, that's dangerous . . . you're being negligent.  This isn't remotely controversial, protecting your children and anticipating problems before they occur is part of being a good parent.

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1057 on: April 26, 2018, 10:02:54 AM »
Iím glad that your kids wonít be coming to my home.  If they are old enough to be unsupervised and can ransack thru the house to find a firearm and know how to load it.  They should know better.  Iíd be worried that these same kids, if they couldnít find the firearms, could probably get out the kitchen knives and kill each other with those.  And what about the matches to start the grill? They could burn down the whole neighborhood.  Then there are the cleaning supplies.  And they probably wouldnít have enough sense to stay out of the pool either.

If you have open access to firearms, I'm glad my kid won't be coming over to your house either.  You keep talking about kids needing to be responsible about guns.  What about adults?  Shouldn't adults be responsible?  Maybe the adults should actually be more responsible than the kids?  You know, by locking up their DEATH WEAPONS so kids can't get to them? 

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1058 on: April 26, 2018, 10:10:11 AM »
If there's one thing that this debate has taught me, it's that responsibility never lies with the gun owner.  It lies with criminals, crazy people, children, security guards, police, district attorneys, the US constitution, the supreme court . . . but never ever with the gun owner.

caracarn

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1059 on: April 26, 2018, 10:18:30 AM »
If there's one thing that this debate has taught me, it's that responsibility never lies with the gun owner.  It lies with criminals, crazy people, children, security guards, police, district attorneys, the US constitution, the supreme court . . . but never ever with the gun owner.
I also learned that laziness lies with the gun owner, so not sure if that is more the driver than lack of responsibility.  It's always too hard, too expensive or too difficult to be responsible.  Which came first the chicken or the egg?

Wexler

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1060 on: April 26, 2018, 10:20:33 AM »
Iím glad that your kids wonít be coming to my home.  If they are old enough to be unsupervised and can ransack thru the house to find a firearm and know how to load it.  They should know better.  Iíd be worried that these same kids, if they couldnít find the firearms, could probably get out the kitchen knives and kill each other with those.  And what about the matches to start the grill? They could burn down the whole neighborhood.  Then there are the cleaning supplies.  And they probably wouldnít have enough sense to stay out of the pool either.

That's fine.  Please make sure that, if you have unsecured weapons, you give parents a fighting chance to make good decisions by practicing full disclosure if their children are in your home.  Honestly, if you don't want kids in your house, disclosure that you have unsecured weapons is a great way to decrease your juice box and goldfish budget.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486
"The most common circumstance surrounding unintentional firearm deaths of both younger (60%) and older children (49%) was playing with a gun. Older children, relative to younger children, more often died in incidents involving showing a gun to others and/or mistakenly thinking the gun was unloaded or the safety was engaged. A gun was mistaken for a toy in 16% of younger childrenís deaths and in only 1 death involving an older child. Approximately the same percentage of deaths of younger and older children occurred while hunting or target shooting (14% and 17%, respectively). The majority of both younger and older children were fatally injured in a home. The proportion involving a handgun was similar for younger and older children (59% and 57%, respectively)."

I'm not sure why gun lovers magically think that hiding a gun in their bedroom is some kind of awesome trick designed to fool children.  And then asking, all perplexed, why would a kid be in their bedroom.  Like a child in their parent's bedroom is some kind of unexplained mystery akin to ending up in Narnia.  I don't know-it's the first place to go if they can't find you?  It's certainly where I went when I was a kid looking for my parents. 

Maybe when checking out potential houses that our kids are going to, we can ask how people feel about Moms Demand Action and assess the likelihood of unsecured weapons based on the spittle radius of the triggered rant about muh miltia and nanny states.  Add guns to the estimate if people bring up Ayn Rand or all taxes are theft/sovereign citizens.  Because this is all I care about.  I just want a way to keep my kids out of the houses of idiots with unsecured weapons.  I don't blame kids for being idiots, but I do blame parents.


DenverDad

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1061 on: April 26, 2018, 10:33:33 AM »
When my son was 4, we went to a bbq at the neighbor's house across the street. He told my wife later that the 10 year old neighbor boy showed him his mom's gun. Our son is no longer allowed inside their house. The same neighbor's 8 year old son recently got upset at my now 5 year old son when they were playing basketball and told him he was going to slit his throat and watch him bleed out. As a responsible gun owner, there is no reason to not lock up the guns when kids live in or are going to be in the house. Gun safes are cheap.

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1062 on: April 26, 2018, 10:46:24 AM »
When my son was 4, we went to a bbq at the neighbor's house across the street. He told my wife later that the 10 year old neighbor boy showed him his mom's gun. Our son is no longer allowed inside their house. The same neighbor's 8 year old son recently got upset at my now 5 year old son when they were playing basketball and told him he was going to slit his throat and watch him bleed out. As a responsible gun owner, there is no reason to not lock up the guns when kids live in or are going to be in the house. Gun safes are cheap.

I know people like that too.  Sad that some people have such a negative and violent view of the world.  People like your neighbor remind me of a quote I read in one of Ebert's movie review a while back:  "Johnny carries a gun because he lives in a dangerous neighborhood.  The neighborhood would be safer if Johnny moved."  Or something similar, I'm going off memory here.

The people that own weapons and carry them around don't seem to realize that just the fact of bringing a gun into any situation raises the threat level for everyone involved.  But they see the world as so inherently bad, so inherently dangerous, that they must carry a gun "for protection", even though it increases the level of danger for everyone around them. 

dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1063 on: April 26, 2018, 11:24:09 AM »
My guns are locked up in the safe, because they are valuable.  But before that they were put up and unloaded.  Kids had there own guns early, B.B. guns around 6 then pellet guns, shooting real guns around 10 or so and most got their own shotgun or 22 around 12.  That was pretty much the norm in the Midwest and Iím sure other parts of the country.

They were taught to respect them and safe handling.  Kind of like itís easier to teach them to swim than think your going to keep them out of the water.

I really donít care what many here think, I wonder if you make your kids wear pads and helmets when they walk around in case they may fall.  You can hover over them all you want, but itís better to educate them on whatís out there and to be responsible themselves.

dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1064 on: April 26, 2018, 11:27:24 AM »
When my son was 4, we went to a bbq at the neighbor's house across the street. He told my wife later that the 10 year old neighbor boy showed him his mom's gun. Our son is no longer allowed inside their house. The same neighbor's 8 year old son recently got upset at my now 5 year old son when they were playing basketball and told him he was going to slit his throat and watch him bleed out. As a responsible gun owner, there is no reason to not lock up the guns when kids live in or are going to be in the house. Gun safes are cheap.

I know people like that too.  Sad that some people have such a negative and violent view of the world.  People like your neighbor remind me of a quote I read in one of Ebert's movie review a while back:  "Johnny carries a gun because he lives in a dangerous neighborhood.  The neighborhood would be safer if Johnny moved."  Or something similar, I'm going off memory here.

The people that own weapons and carry them around don't seem to realize that just the fact of bringing a gun into any situation raises the threat level for everyone involved.  But they see the world as so inherently bad, so inherently dangerous, that they must carry a gun "for protection", even though it increases the level of danger for everyone around them.

I live in a very safe neighborhood and donít keep a gun for protection. I use to hunt, but now I like to target shoot.  Sporting clays and some bullseye pistol and rifle.

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1065 on: April 26, 2018, 11:44:46 AM »
My guns are locked up in the safe, because they are valuable.  But before that they were put up and unloaded.  Kids had there own guns early, B.B. guns around 6 then pellet guns, shooting real guns around 10 or so and most got their own shotgun or 22 around 12.  That was pretty much the norm in the Midwest and Iím sure other parts of the country.

They were taught to respect them and safe handling.  Kind of like itís easier to teach them to swim than think your going to keep them out of the water.

I really donít care what many here think, I wonder if you make your kids wear pads and helmets when they walk around in case they may fall.  You can hover over them all you want, but itís better to educate them on whatís out there and to be responsible themselves.

Kids are dying because of irresponsible gun owners and your response is that the irresponsible gun owners should be better parents?  That's your solution?  Really?

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1066 on: April 26, 2018, 12:01:40 PM »
My guns are locked up in the safe, because they are valuable.  But before that they were put up and unloaded.  Kids had there own guns early, B.B. guns around 6 then pellet guns, shooting real guns around 10 or so and most got their own shotgun or 22 around 12.  That was pretty much the norm in the Midwest and Iím sure other parts of the country.

They were taught to respect them and safe handling.  Kind of like itís easier to teach them to swim than think your going to keep them out of the water.

I learned to shoot around 12, and regularly went hunting after that.  Our guns were kept unloaded and locked in a cabinet.  I was taught to respect and handle both weapons that we had carefully and safely.  But I also did a lot of stupid shit as a kid.  It was safer that none of this could involve our guns.

I really donít care what many here think, I wonder if you make your kids wear pads and helmets when they walk around in case they may fall.  You can hover over them all you want, but itís better to educate them on whatís out there and to be responsible themselves.

I'd certainly let my kid fall a few times while learning to walk.  When you walk and fall, you survive and learn.

I wouldn't let my kid play in a busy street . . . he's likely not to survive, and it's not worth the risk.  That's why he can play alone in the back yard, but not the front where there's busy traffic.

By the same token, I wouldn't leave my kid alone with a gun sitting around.  He can learn to use it with supervision . . . but why risk it without?  Seems unnecessary and negligent.

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1067 on: April 26, 2018, 12:03:38 PM »
My guns are locked up in the safe, because they are valuable.  But before that they were put up and unloaded.  Kids had there own guns early, B.B. guns around 6 then pellet guns, shooting real guns around 10 or so and most got their own shotgun or 22 around 12.  That was pretty much the norm in the Midwest and Iím sure other parts of the country.

They were taught to respect them and safe handling.  Kind of like itís easier to teach them to swim than think your going to keep them out of the water.

I really donít care what many here think, I wonder if you make your kids wear pads and helmets when they walk around in case they may fall.  You can hover over them all you want, but itís better to educate them on whatís out there and to be responsible themselves.

Falling results in scraped knees and in some cases broken bones. These things build character. I'm all for kids riding bikes (without helmets, depending on where they bike), climbing trees, playing sports, and even getting in the occasional fight (as long as the other kid started it :).

I also grew up around guns the way you described, just add a few years to all of your numbers. But I still support locking guns up when you have kids and especially their friends in the house. Kids can use the guns, but they need to ask for a parents permission. Is that really too much to ask?

MasterStache

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1068 on: April 26, 2018, 12:52:02 PM »
Iím glad that your kids wonít be coming to my home.  If they are old enough to be unsupervised and can ransack thru the house to find a firearm and know how to load it. They should know better.  Iíd be worried that these same kids, if they couldnít find the firearms, could probably get out the kitchen knives and kill each other with those.  And what about the matches to start the grill? They could burn down the whole neighborhood.  Then there are the cleaning supplies.  And they probably wouldnít have enough sense to stay out of the pool either.

Except they are kids and do not know better. Thus why it's better to be safe than sorry. And much safer to assume your kid, the neighbors kid, or whoever doesn't "know better."

I don't have a gun, but we do have two dogs, one of which is very large and capable of causing damage and/or death. When the neighbor kids come over we lock the dogs in our bedroom. Our lock is only accessible with a key. We also do not leave the kids alone in the house. One of my daughters friends has tried to get into the bedroom several times despite being warned. Should they know better? Absolutely, except we know better than to assume they know better. If we had a gun it would be in a secure safe in a locked room with the kids in the house. 

Point being, you shouldn't have to worry about kids ransacking through the house if your firearms are in a secure place and not accessible, by any reasonable means, to kids.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 12:54:20 PM by MasterStache »

caracarn

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1069 on: April 26, 2018, 02:59:46 PM »
I really donít care what many here think, I wonder if you make your kids wear pads and helmets when they walk around in case they may fall.  You can hover over them all you want, but itís better to educate them on whatís out there and to be responsible themselves.
And this is why people are so hostile to the pro-gun group.  Because frankly if you don't care what people think about something whose purpose is to inflict severe damage easily and compare it to falling while walking which does very little harm and cannot see how the two are equal, we don't care what you think.  There is a much higher case of death with a gun than death from a fall from my toddler in my kitchen.  This nonchalant attitude about very harmful things is what is off putting.  I'd just as upset if a worker at a nuclear facility was as flippant about protective measures there.  It's serious stuff.  But it's clear to you it is not.

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1070 on: April 27, 2018, 02:25:09 AM »
FWIW, as soon as a gun is fired in an incident, there is a 50% chance of injury, and a 25% chance of death.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 10:52:29 PM by gooki »

px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1071 on: April 27, 2018, 10:35:02 AM »
FWIW, as soon as a gun is fired in an incident, these a 50% chance of injury, and a 25% chance of death.

Source?

I would love to find out where you found this information.

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1072 on: April 27, 2018, 10:51:47 PM »
Source is here:
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org

Seems fairly consistent over the last 5 years.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 10:54:35 PM by gooki »

px4shooter

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1073 on: April 28, 2018, 05:51:38 PM »
Not quite buying their numbers.

They only use media for my area. That is highly inaccurate and limits the number and type of incidents. I was hoping to see them actually go through police reports and get data.


BlueMR2

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1074 on: April 28, 2018, 07:27:54 PM »
I'd have to agree, that seems terribly hard to believe having seen reports in the not too distant past on the unexpectedly high probability of no one getting hit at all during a gunfire incident.

Jrr85

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1075 on: April 30, 2018, 11:18:47 AM »

Except, ya know, firearms accidents are a tiny TINY slice of deaths.  "Fixing the death rate" is a left dog-whistle for ignoring real statistics.  Firearms accidents (and adolescent murders outside of gang-related warfare) are basically non-existent in our 320 million population. 

In actual numbers, its 82 kids lost per year to firearm accidental fatalities.  82 out of 320 million.  82 out of 100 million gun owners.  That is 0.082 per 100,000 gun owners.  Or 1 death per 1,218,000 gun owners.  Why do you want to restrict the rights of 1,217,999 gun owners because of One idiot, when there are already laws on the books to punish that idiot?

All per this study:  http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486
(<-  See what I did there!  Actual Data!)

I'm not sure how you felt all my ire was based only on firearms accidents.  When I refer the the death rate I mean anyone who is killed by a gun for any reason.  That number should be as close to zero as possible.  I don't honestly care about statistics because there is not an acceptable rate of death for something I do not consider a necessity to exist in the world.  Therefore my assessment is based on treating a gun as a luxury, and lining up what might be OK for injuries caused by that luxury.  For example, I understand people drown in swimming pools, but I also feel that the frequency of that would not warrant further involvement of laws.  Responsible pool owners usually fence their pool, put a lock on the gate or do other things to minimize accidental drowning from a toddler falling in.  If death did occur as a result my pool, I'd certainly be able to be punished for that.  Yet somehow you feel a gun, which has much less of a joyful purpose to exist, as a pool does should be treated differently?  I'll answer for you.  Your answer is yes because it is a constitutional right, and there we circle back to my rationale for why this protection is not warranted for something not needed for a good and happy life.  Free speech is important for that.  Having a gun, not so much.

The fear mongering of we should all shiver in fear when we talk casually about taking away constitutional rights carries little weight.  The Second Amendment is so unique that it is not hard for most people to understand.  It is only in trying to keep it protected are the arguments used to try to create the false equivalency.  The only thing the Second Amendment really has in common with the others with respect to protecting a good and happy life is that is an amendment and that it is in the Constitution.

So if someone doesn't think pools should exist, they should be able to stop you from having one?  Seeing as drowning deaths in pools are a pretty big contributor to deaths of children under 12? 


GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1076 on: April 30, 2018, 11:35:17 AM »

Except, ya know, firearms accidents are a tiny TINY slice of deaths.  "Fixing the death rate" is a left dog-whistle for ignoring real statistics.  Firearms accidents (and adolescent murders outside of gang-related warfare) are basically non-existent in our 320 million population. 

In actual numbers, its 82 kids lost per year to firearm accidental fatalities.  82 out of 320 million.  82 out of 100 million gun owners.  That is 0.082 per 100,000 gun owners.  Or 1 death per 1,218,000 gun owners.  Why do you want to restrict the rights of 1,217,999 gun owners because of One idiot, when there are already laws on the books to punish that idiot?

All per this study:  http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486
(<-  See what I did there!  Actual Data!)

I'm not sure how you felt all my ire was based only on firearms accidents.  When I refer the the death rate I mean anyone who is killed by a gun for any reason.  That number should be as close to zero as possible.  I don't honestly care about statistics because there is not an acceptable rate of death for something I do not consider a necessity to exist in the world.  Therefore my assessment is based on treating a gun as a luxury, and lining up what might be OK for injuries caused by that luxury.  For example, I understand people drown in swimming pools, but I also feel that the frequency of that would not warrant further involvement of laws.  Responsible pool owners usually fence their pool, put a lock on the gate or do other things to minimize accidental drowning from a toddler falling in.  If death did occur as a result my pool, I'd certainly be able to be punished for that.  Yet somehow you feel a gun, which has much less of a joyful purpose to exist, as a pool does should be treated differently?  I'll answer for you.  Your answer is yes because it is a constitutional right, and there we circle back to my rationale for why this protection is not warranted for something not needed for a good and happy life.  Free speech is important for that.  Having a gun, not so much.

The fear mongering of we should all shiver in fear when we talk casually about taking away constitutional rights carries little weight.  The Second Amendment is so unique that it is not hard for most people to understand.  It is only in trying to keep it protected are the arguments used to try to create the false equivalency.  The only thing the Second Amendment really has in common with the others with respect to protecting a good and happy life is that is an amendment and that it is in the Constitution.

So if someone doesn't think pools should exist, they should be able to stop you from having one?  Seeing as drowning deaths in pools are a pretty big contributor to deaths of children under 12?


You want to have a pool, have a pool.  But don't be surprised if there's support for a requirement that your pool be fenced to prevent accidental drownings. If you want your pool to be a 90 ft deep concrete lined moat around your property (right up to the sidewalk) with a 15 ft drop to the water below then you probably will be denied zoning rights for it - it's pretty damned unsafe.

(And don't be surprised if people ridicule you for openly carrying an inflatable pool with you while you're in a Walmart, decked out in your tacticool snorkel and flippers to publicly show your support for the NPA.)

dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1077 on: April 30, 2018, 01:51:43 PM »
Since I live very close to the gulf I wonder when we will be required to fence off the beaches and canals.  My pool is enclosed by a fenced in lanai, but that really only keeps the bugs and alligators out. 

How are we going to protect the children?

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1078 on: April 30, 2018, 01:56:17 PM »
Did you know that the vast majority of children who drown are not carrying a firearm?  Obviously, the best way to protect them is to arm them.

caracarn

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1079 on: April 30, 2018, 03:05:22 PM »
Since I live very close to the gulf I wonder when we will be required to fence off the beaches and canals.  My pool is enclosed by a fenced in lanai, but that really only keeps the bugs and alligators out. 

How are we going to protect the children?
Yes, because once again the pro-gun method is to ridicule anything as not equal.  You know what, you are right they are not equal.  A pool is not primarily made to kill something whereas a gun is.

dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1080 on: April 30, 2018, 03:37:02 PM »
Since I live very close to the gulf I wonder when we will be required to fence off the beaches and canals.  My pool is enclosed by a fenced in lanai, but that really only keeps the bugs and alligators out. 

How are we going to protect the children?
Yes, because once again the pro-gun method is to ridicule anything as not equal.  You know what, you are right they are not equal.  A pool is not primarily made to kill something whereas a gun is.

We teach the kids to swim, and to stay out of the water unless supervised. 

dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1081 on: April 30, 2018, 03:41:41 PM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws.  Iím actually not against trigger locks or safe storage if kids are in the home.  And letís make it so felons, who are not suppose to have a gun, face penalties that are severe if caught with one.

Also concealed carry holders are the most law abiding citizens, letís not make it a crime if one simply crosses a state line.  Your carry permit should be good anywhere in the states.

dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1082 on: April 30, 2018, 03:47:31 PM »
Since I live very close to the gulf I wonder when we will be required to fence off the beaches and canals.  My pool is enclosed by a fenced in lanai, but that really only keeps the bugs and alligators out. 

How are we going to protect the children?
Yes, because once again the pro-gun method is to ridicule anything as not equal.  You know what, you are right they are not equal.  A pool is not primarily made to kill something whereas a gun is.

We have alligators and sharks in the water.  Iím pretty sure they are also made to kill.  Should we exterminate them? 

Do you really think you can get rid of all the guns?  There are 100 of millions. I believe Iíve read that there are more guns than people.  We canít even get rid of the illegal aliens in the country. 

gooki

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1083 on: April 30, 2018, 07:11:11 PM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws.  Iím actually not against trigger locks or safe storage if kids are in the home.  And letís make it so felons, who are not suppose to have a gun, face penalties that are severe if caught with one.

Also concealed carry holders are the most law abiding citizens, letís not make it a crime if one simply crosses a state line.  Your carry permit should be good anywhere in the states.

I have no objection to this. There's benefits to both sides if they're willing to work together and agree on a consistent country wide policy.

dmc

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1084 on: May 01, 2018, 07:10:51 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws.  Iím actually not against trigger locks or safe storage if kids are in the home.  And letís make it so felons, who are not suppose to have a gun, face penalties that are severe if caught with one.

Also concealed carry holders are the most law abiding citizens, letís not make it a crime if one simply crosses a state line.  Your carry permit should be good anywhere in the states.

I have no objection to this. There's benefits to both sides if they're willing to work together and agree on a consistent country wide policy.

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1085 on: May 01, 2018, 08:03:57 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws.  Iím actually not against trigger locks or safe storage if kids are in the home.  And letís make it so felons, who are not suppose to have a gun, face penalties that are severe if caught with one.

Also concealed carry holders are the most law abiding citizens, letís not make it a crime if one simply crosses a state line.  Your carry permit should be good anywhere in the states.

I have no objection to this. There's benefits to both sides if they're willing to work together and agree on a consistent country wide policy.

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

I would love that. Few things make me angrier than people who phone or text while driving.

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1086 on: May 01, 2018, 08:10:48 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws.  Iím actually not against trigger locks or safe storage if kids are in the home.  And letís make it so felons, who are not suppose to have a gun, face penalties that are severe if caught with one.

Also concealed carry holders are the most law abiding citizens, letís not make it a crime if one simply crosses a state line.  Your carry permit should be good anywhere in the states.

I have no objection to this. There's benefits to both sides if they're willing to work together and agree on a consistent country wide policy.

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

I would love that. Few things make me angrier than people who phone or text while driving.

All vehicles should have a short range cell phone jammer active when the car electrics come on.  Very easy to design, very cheap to make, would radically improve safety on the road, and could be quickly checked by police during a stop.

PoutineLover

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1087 on: May 01, 2018, 08:14:53 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws.  Iím actually not against trigger locks or safe storage if kids are in the home.  And letís make it so felons, who are not suppose to have a gun, face penalties that are severe if caught with one.

Also concealed carry holders are the most law abiding citizens, letís not make it a crime if one simply crosses a state line.  Your carry permit should be good anywhere in the states.

I have no objection to this. There's benefits to both sides if they're willing to work together and agree on a consistent country wide policy.

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

I would love that. Few things make me angrier than people who phone or text while driving.

All vehicles should have a short range cell phone jammer active when the car electrics come on.  Very easy to design, very cheap to make, would radically improve safety on the road, and could be quickly checked by police during a stop.
I like this idea but wouldn't it jam everyone's cells, not just the drivers? And what about navigation apps? Is there a way to just block the driver's cell, but still allow maps and music?

TexasRunner

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1088 on: May 01, 2018, 08:18:26 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws.  Iím actually not against trigger locks or safe storage if kids are in the home.  And letís make it so felons, who are not suppose to have a gun, face penalties that are severe if caught with one.

Also concealed carry holders are the most law abiding citizens, letís not make it a crime if one simply crosses a state line.  Your carry permit should be good anywhere in the states.

I have no objection to this. There's benefits to both sides if they're willing to work together and agree on a consistent country wide policy.

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

I would love that. Few things make me angrier than people who phone or text while driving.

All vehicles should have a short range cell phone jammer active when the car electrics come on.  Very easy to design, very cheap to make, would radically improve safety on the road, and could be quickly checked by police during a stop.

And what happens when you need to call the police during a road rage incident?...  Just chill on the side of the road with the guy?

Man, you guys must have had your parents pay for babysitters when you were in college to be accustomed to this level nanny-state-ness.

/sarcasm off

The easy (and freedom loving) solution is to just make electronics use illegal, and then enforce it.  The human element of enforcement allows for odd situations (like road rage incident above) without infringing on 'freedom'. 

Prrof it can be done:  https://gizmodo.com/this-huge-camera-rig-busts-people-for-texting-and-drivi-1778628433


Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1089 on: May 01, 2018, 08:22:29 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws.  Iím actually not against trigger locks or safe storage if kids are in the home.  And letís make it so felons, who are not suppose to have a gun, face penalties that are severe if caught with one.

Also concealed carry holders are the most law abiding citizens, letís not make it a crime if one simply crosses a state line.  Your carry permit should be good anywhere in the states.

I have no objection to this. There's benefits to both sides if they're willing to work together and agree on a consistent country wide policy.

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

I would love that. Few things make me angrier than people who phone or text while driving.

All vehicles should have a short range cell phone jammer active when the car electrics come on.  Very easy to design, very cheap to make, would radically improve safety on the road, and could be quickly checked by police during a stop.

And what happens when you need to call the police during a road rage incident?...  Just chill on the side of the road with the guy?

Man, you guys must have had your parents pay for babysitters when you were in college to be accustomed to this level nanny-state-ness.

/sarcasm off

The easy (and freedom loving) solution is to just make electronics use illegal, and then enforce it.  The human element of enforcement allows for odd situations (like road rage incident above) without infringing on 'freedom'. 

Prrof it can be done:  https://gizmodo.com/this-huge-camera-rig-busts-people-for-texting-and-drivi-1778628433



Are you capable of arguing without belittling people? Because from here, it doesn't seem like it.

Frankly, your lack of being able to make a mature argument without resorting to childish insults weakens your point. I pretty much tuned out before you could make it. Which wasn't exactly your intention, was it?

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1090 on: May 01, 2018, 08:33:09 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws.  Iím actually not against trigger locks or safe storage if kids are in the home.  And letís make it so felons, who are not suppose to have a gun, face penalties that are severe if caught with one.

Also concealed carry holders are the most law abiding citizens, letís not make it a crime if one simply crosses a state line.  Your carry permit should be good anywhere in the states.

I have no objection to this. There's benefits to both sides if they're willing to work together and agree on a consistent country wide policy.

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

I would love that. Few things make me angrier than people who phone or text while driving.

All vehicles should have a short range cell phone jammer active when the car electrics come on.  Very easy to design, very cheap to make, would radically improve safety on the road, and could be quickly checked by police during a stop.

And what happens when you need to call the police during a road rage incident?

I drive safely, and am capable of letting it go when someone is being a jerk on the road.  Calling the police during a road rage incident has therefore never been necessary.  If you have anger control problems though, this could certainly be an issue.

I'd figure it's better to avoid the higher taxes for the extra officers that would be necessary to catch enough people texting and driving to make a difference.  If you're in favor of a less effective, more expensive solution, that's your prerogative.  I feel like a cell jammer in your car is no more of a nanny state than hundreds of police camped out with telephoto lenses observing you remotely . . . but whatever.

acroy

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1091 on: May 01, 2018, 08:33:50 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

I would love that. Few things make me angrier than people who phone or text while driving.

All vehicles should have a short range cell phone jammer active when the car electrics come on.  Very easy to design, very cheap to make, would radically improve safety on the road, and could be quickly checked by police during a stop.

Good grief, ya'lls response to every issue, real or perceived, is anger and mandates.
MOAR LAWS limiting the choices and freedom of your fellow citizens. How very 'illiberal' and intolerant.
Thanks for the concern, but keep your hands off my stuff. How bout we enforce personal responsibility and leave it at that.

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1092 on: May 01, 2018, 08:47:17 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

I would love that. Few things make me angrier than people who phone or text while driving.

All vehicles should have a short range cell phone jammer active when the car electrics come on.  Very easy to design, very cheap to make, would radically improve safety on the road, and could be quickly checked by police during a stop.

Good grief, ya'lls response to every issue, real or perceived, is anger and mandates.
MOAR LAWS limiting the choices and freedom of your fellow citizens. How very 'illiberal' and intolerant.
Thanks for the concern, but keep your hands off my stuff. How bout we enforce personal responsibility and leave it at that.


Sure. Because the dumb shit you do will never affect me.

Where's that eyeroll emoji?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 08:55:33 AM by Kris »

Kris

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1093 on: May 01, 2018, 08:58:13 AM »
I am willing to compromise and have some common sense gun laws

Good, now that the gun problem is taken care of we can work on cell phone use while driving.  I think cell phones should be disabled at say speeds over 10 mph.  Think of the children!

I would love that. Few things make me angrier than people who phone or text while driving.

All vehicles should have a short range cell phone jammer active when the car electrics come on.  Very easy to design, very cheap to make, would radically improve safety on the road, and could be quickly checked by police during a stop.

Good grief, ya'lls response to every issue, real or perceived, is anger and mandates.
MOAR LAWS limiting the choices and freedom of your fellow citizens. How very 'illiberal' and intolerant.
Thanks for the concern, but keep your hands off my stuff. How bout we enforce personal responsibility and leave it at that.




Sure. Because the dumb shit you do will never affect me.

Where's that eyeroll emoji?

Of the times in the last few years that I have come closest to death/serious injury, almost all of them have been because someone was using their cell phone while they were driving. Some of them never even knew how close they came to killing/maiming another person -- BECAUSE THEY WERE TOO ENGROSSED IN THEIR PHONES TO EVEN NOTICE.

Note to all the "it all comes down to personal responsibility" types who regularly talk or text while they're driving: You don't have a leg to stand on.

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1094 on: May 01, 2018, 10:27:02 AM »
I always wonder - the "freedom" lovers and "nanny-state" haters, are they all just anarchists at heart?  Because really, it can be argued at ANY law that affects their ability to do dumb/harmful things is an impingement on their "freedom".  Like DUI laws, or texting/driving laws, or gun regulatory laws, or .... it seems like they'd really be happier if ALL of that stuff went out the window. 

Their cries for "personal accountability" seem to have at root the idea that we should have no laws at all. 

Hell, if that's true, if they secretly desire anarchy, then it's no wonder they cling to their guns so desperately.  In a lawless society, you'd damn well better have a weapon to protect yourself. 

Of course, anarchy as a political ideal is a stupid fantasy.

RetiredAt63

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1095 on: May 01, 2018, 10:38:36 AM »
Of course, anarchy as a political ideal is a stupid fantasy.

Larry Niven nailed it.
http://larryniven.net/stories/cloak_of_anarchy.shtml

GuitarStv

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1096 on: May 01, 2018, 10:50:50 AM »
Of course, anarchy as a political ideal is a stupid fantasy.

Larry Niven nailed it.
http://larryniven.net/stories/cloak_of_anarchy.shtml

Classic sci-fi by one of the underappreciated greats.

tyort1

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1097 on: May 01, 2018, 12:14:03 PM »
Of course, anarchy as a political ideal is a stupid fantasy.

Larry Niven nailed it.
http://larryniven.net/stories/cloak_of_anarchy.shtml

Classic sci-fi by one of the underappreciated greats.

If people want to see what near-anarchy looks like in real life - just look at the Old West.  That is how people behave in the absence of laws and law enforcement.  The murder rate back then was insanely high.  Which is the whole reason towns clamored for lawmen and law enforcement - in the absence of a "nanny state", you get a descent into violence pretty quickly. 

The idea of anarchy working is based on the underlying idea that everyone will follow the basic underlying rule of don't initiate violence.  But in actual fact, there's ALWAYS some asshole(s) that will have no problem at all using their "freedom" to threaten and commit violence with impunity.  This basic fact of human nature is the reason we need laws.  If everyone were moral and rational all the time, their anarchy fantasy might work.  But that's not reality and it will never, ever be reality.  The whole reason we need laws is not because everyone is a law breaker.  It's because we have a smaller set of consistently shitty people that have a disproportionately negative effect on everyone else because of how abusive and violent they are. 

The naivety of that whole "small government" group is just breathtaking.  Don't they read history?  Don't they have any understanding of human nature?  And if they do think anarchy or small government is so awesome, why don't they go to places like central africa or south america where there really is "small government" (because the government is so ineffective in those places)?

More likely, they would rather stay in the USA with it's much bigger nanny state in place and enjoy the benefits of strong law enforcement (ie, a low incidence of violence), and just go all complainypants about "big government".   The irony is that the safety they enjoy is provided by big government in the first place!  If we tear that down, we end up right back in the same place we were in the Old West or current day Africa. 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 12:33:16 PM by tyort1 »

Dabnasty

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1098 on: May 01, 2018, 12:52:41 PM »
My take on it is that those who complain about the idea of a "nanny state" are referring to laws that prevent you from doing something wrong or surveilling you just in case you commit a crime rather than punishing you after the fact.

Personally I don't agree and I don't see an inherent problem with restricting someone's ability to commit a crime but in regards to jamming cell signals in all vehicles I do think there are some logistical issues. Not just road rage but I can think of other emergency situations where making a phone call from a moving vehicle would be helpful: being followed by a suspicious vehicle, calling ahead to an emergency room. Also, this would make it impossible for passengers to make calls/text as well. Seems a little impractical and I doubt something like this would ever pass even if you could compile good data on the accidents it would prevent.

caracarn

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Re: 11 School Shootings in 26 Days
« Reply #1099 on: May 01, 2018, 01:07:23 PM »
Not just road rage but I can think of other emergency situations where making a phone call from a moving vehicle would be helpful: being followed by a suspicious vehicle, calling ahead to an emergency room.

Not that I am advocating for this change, but you do realize the world did exists for thousands of years before we could do this from moving vehicles (including chariots and Conestoga wagons) and we found ways to cope.