Author Topic: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?  (Read 5472 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #100 on: June 15, 2020, 12:42:24 PM »
They sent out 20 million HCQ tablets in April, what a waste of taxpayer funds.

Mexico will pay for it.

DarkandStormy

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #101 on: June 15, 2020, 12:42:41 PM »
https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/coronavirus/americans_play_politics_with_their_lives_even_when_it_comes_to_covid_19

Rasmussen poll says many would refuse hydroxychloroquine even if they had Covid-19, and it's apparently a political decision.
Would you? Why?
I have given it to patients and so far no one has refused it.
Seriously, this is insane. In fact, I think it's mainly big talkers, and most of these people would take it if their doctors advised.
"WASHINGTON ó The Food and Drug Administration on Monday said it had withdrawn an emergency approval for use of the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine as a Covid-19 treatment."

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/15/fda-revokes-hydroxychloroquine/

So much for the wonder drug magic bullet.

No, I wouldn't take it.  It's not FDA-approved.  It has shown no benefits.  In fact, it has shown to *increase deaths* in covid patients who took it.  If my doctor suggested I take it, I'd switch doctors.

What is probably better as a treatment of covid symptoms - especially symptoms in the lungs - is steroids.

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #102 on: June 15, 2020, 02:24:46 PM »
I took hydroxychloroquine at the insistence of my doctor for my visit to Northern Brasil. As an FDA-approved anti-malarial, it seemed like reasonable advice and I didnt suffer any ill effects, nor contracted malaria. Given my benign rsponse to it, sure i might take it for covid, that is, if i wasnt asymptomatic.

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #103 on: June 15, 2020, 02:54:32 PM »
I took hydroxychloroquine at the insistence of my doctor for my visit to Northern Brasil. As an FDA-approved anti-malarial, it seemed like reasonable advice and I didnt suffer any ill effects, nor contracted malaria. Given my benign rsponse to it, sure i might take it for covid, that is, if i wasnt asymptomatic.

Just because you didnít have an adverse reaction to a drug once doesnít mean you wonít suffer Iíll effects during subsequent courses. Drug very often have cumulative effects


Iím curious why you would take a drug that the FDA has now removed from its list of potential treatments

hops

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #104 on: June 16, 2020, 08:47:35 AM »
Preemptively cringing this morning at the way the media's about to descend on dexamethasone, and the false sense of security the reporting might give people who only want to hear words like "life-saving" and "cure" and "game-changer" without understanding the broader context:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53061281

Here's a reminder (from page two) that steroids have long looked like the best bet for helping some patients:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/coronavirus-immune-response/610228/

Physician reactions on Twitter (not unlike physician reaction in my living room earlier) range from the obvious "Show us the data!", to skepticism due to decades of mixed opinion about steroids in treating ARDS, to warnings to not take it as a preventative. I've also seen an "It's already been hard to get this for our cancer patients in recent months and this will make it worse."
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 02:05:56 PM by hops »

caffeine

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2020, 07:45:14 AM »
Incredible. It seems the only reason the media was so against hydroxychloroquine is because Trump was publicly optimistic about it - likely because he was briefed on it being used in non-clinical capacity.

https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/health/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-detroit-study/index.html

In a peer-reviewed study of 2,541 patients, hydroxychloroquine "cut the death rate significantly" without "heart-related side-effects." Its been published today in the International Journal of Infectious Diseases.

https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

Conclusion:

Quote
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.

If I get the COVIDs, I guess I'll take hydroxychloroquine if my doctor recommends it, but now I may actually strongly suggest it.

js82

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2020, 08:51:49 AM »
Incredible. It seems the only reason the media was so against hydroxychloroquine is because Trump was publicly optimistic about it - likely because he was briefed on it being used in non-clinical capacity.

Several early studies failed to show benefit.  Not everything is a media conspiracy.  Science is an evolutionary process.


That said, this study is interesting, but there's more to look at here than just HCQ.  Specifically, this study isn't truly looking at the effects of AZM + HCQ in isolation:

Steroids were given to 78.9% of the HCQ group, 74.3% of the HCQ+AZM group, but only 35.7% of the control group.  Thus, the groups were clearly not being treated the same in other ways besides whether or not they got HCQ.  There are already studies showing that certain steroids can significantly cut covid mortality:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/16/major-study-finds-common-steroid-reduces-deaths-among-patients-with-severe-covid-19/

Also noteworthy is that the HCQ-only patients were in the best shape at the start - they had the lowest mean mSOFA (a screening for organ failure) score, which is one measure of overall patient duress.

Based on this, it's impossible to say how much of the total effect can be attributed to HCQ itself.  Not dismissing the study, but there's clearly more work to be done to hone in on what the optimal treatment protocol for Covid is, and in isolating the impacts of individual components. Remdesevir has shown measurable benefits too, as has dexamethasone.  Clearly *something* about the treatment group led to better outcomes in the above study, but there were more differences between the groups besides just HCQ.  Understanding all of that is the key to developing the best possible treatment protocols.  The optimal treatment protocol will probably eventually involve multiple drugs - though it's not clear which combination is best at this point.

Conclusion:

Quote
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.


For the sake of accuracy, there's absolutely nothing in this study to suggest that azithromycin did anything useful.  The AZM+HCQ group fared worse than the group with HCQ alone(although they were also objectively sicker), and there's no statistical difference in mortality rates between the control group and AZM alone.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 09:52:07 AM by js82 »

caffeine

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #107 on: July 03, 2020, 10:33:05 AM »
For the sake of accuracy, there's absolutely nothing in this study to suggest that azithromycin did anything useful.  The AZM+HCQ group fared worse than the group with HCQ alone, and there's no statistical difference in mortality rates between the control group and AZM alone.

Your analysis contradicts the study. The study concludes AZM+HCQ reduced morbidity when controlled for risk factors.

The Study: https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext
   
Quote
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.
   
Results

Quote
Of 2,541 patients, with a median total hospitalization time of 6 days (IQR: 4-10 days), median age was 64 years (IQR:53-76 years), 51% male, 56% African American, with median time to follow-up of 28.5 days (IQR:3-53). Overall in-hospital mortality was 18.1% (95% CI:16.6%-19.7%); by treatment: hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin, 157/783 (20.1% [95% CI: 17.3%-23.0%]), hydroxychloroquine alone, 162/1202 (13.5% [95% CI: 11.6%-15.5%]), azithromycin alone, 33/147 (22.4% [95% CI: 16.0%-30.1%]), and neither drug, 108/409 (26.4% [95% CI: 22.2%-31.0%])​. Primary cause of mortality was respiratory failure (88%); no patient had documented torsades de pointes. From Cox regression modeling, predictors of mortality were age>65 years (HR:2.6 [95% CI:1.9-3.3]), white race (HR:1.7 [95% CI:1.4-2.1]), CKD (HR:1.7 [95%CI:1.4-2.1]), reduced O2 saturation level on admission (HR:1.5 [95%CI:1.1-2.1]), and ventilator use during admission (HR: 2.2 [95%CI:1.4-3.3]). Hydroxychloroquine provided a 66% hazard ratio reduction, and hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin 71% compared to neither treatment (p < 0.001).
         
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 11:34:05 AM by caffeine »

MudPuppy

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #108 on: July 03, 2020, 10:58:21 AM »
Not just ďfailed to show benefitĒ in early studies, either. They showed actively worse outcomes, largely because of the potential cardiac side effects of the drug. There was enough evidence showing risk for harm that the FDA pulled itís emergency approval. Not a conspiracy, just uncharted waters and a drug with not great positive evidence.

gentmach

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2020, 11:20:35 AM »
Incredible. It seems the only reason the media was so against hydroxychloroquine is because Trump was publicly optimistic about it - likely because he was briefed on it being used in non-clinical capacity.

Several early studies failed to show benefit.  Not everything is a media conspiracy.  Science is an evolutionary process.


That said, this study is interesting, but there's more to look at here than just HCQ.  Specifically, this study isn't truly looking at the effects of AZM + HCQ in isolation:

Steroids were given to 78.9% of the HCQ group, 74.3% of the HCQ+AZM group, but only 35.7% of the control group.  Thus, the groups were clearly not being treated the same in other ways besides whether or not they got HCQ.  There are already studies showing that certain steroids can significantly cut covid mortality:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/16/major-study-finds-common-steroid-reduces-deaths-among-patients-with-severe-covid-19/

Also noteworthy is that the HCQ-only patients were in the best shape at the start - they had the lowest mean mSOFA (a screening for organ failure) score, which is one measure of overall patient duress.

Based on this, it's impossible to say how much of the total effect can be attributed to HCQ itself.  Not dismissing the study, but there's clearly more work to be done to hone in on what the optimal treatment protocol for Covid is, and in isolating the impacts of individual components. Remdesevir has shown measurable benefits too, as has dexamethasone.  Clearly *something* about the treatment group led to better outcomes in the above study, but there were more differences between the groups besides just HCQ.  Understanding all of that is the key to developing the best possible treatment protocols.  The optimal treatment protocol will probably eventually involve multiple drugs - though it's not clear which combination is best at this point.

Conclusion:

Quote
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.


For the sake of accuracy, there's absolutely nothing in this study to suggest that azithromycin did anything useful.  The AZM+HCQ group fared worse than the group with HCQ alone(although they were also objectively sicker), and there's no statistical difference in mortality rates between the control group and AZM alone.

Not a media conspiracy. More a failure of scientific journals to do peer reviews.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/04/researchers-retract-study-that-found-big-risks-using-hydroxychloroquine-treat-covid-19/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/covid-19-surgisphere-who-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine

Essentially a small company made up a study, then medical journals printed it and the media didn't ask questions.

Just bureaucracy being bureaucracy.

bacchi

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2020, 11:38:35 AM »
Incredible. It seems the only reason the media was so against hydroxychloroquine is because Trump was publicly optimistic about it - likely because he was briefed on it being used in non-clinical capacity.

The reason people were against it is because Trump was pushing for it without any proof that it worked.

Unless you're suggesting that he knew the results of this study months before the results were released. Now that would be incredible.

caffeine

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #111 on: July 03, 2020, 12:28:35 PM »
Incredible. It seems the only reason the media was so against hydroxychloroquine is because Trump was publicly optimistic about it - likely because he was briefed on it being used in non-clinical capacity.

The reason people were against it is because Trump was pushing for it without any proof that it worked.

Unless you're suggesting that he knew the results of this study months before the results were released. Now that would be incredible.

Trump's enthusiasm for the drugs was based on a French study of 20 patients in March that showed the drugs might work against the virus. He was obviously briefed on it and was publicly hoping it was going to work. He probably shouldn't have mentioned it.

I would also take the positive study with a grain of salt. The UK tested with 11,000 people and concluded it was of no help.

https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/statement-from-the-chief-investigators-of-the-randomised-evaluation-of-covid-19-therapy-recovery-trial-on-hydroxychloroquine-5-june-2020-no-clinical-benefit-from-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-hospitalised-patients-with-covid-19

The "incredible" more of a statement on the news media promoting every story/study to declare something controversial to generate stories about a politician they dislike (obviously). The study I linked and the CNN article are oddly missing from the front page. It's buried.

I frequent CNN. This was a front page news article:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/health/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-lancet-study/index.html

It's from this debunked study:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

It seems in the public interest to update that study was retracted in a likewise public way - they never did.

A peer reviewed study with a large n was published and the article is made and buried. Why no front page?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 01:09:57 PM by caffeine »

MudPuppy

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #112 on: July 03, 2020, 12:30:27 PM »
It was on every front page... yesterday

caffeine

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #113 on: July 03, 2020, 12:53:46 PM »
It was on every front page... yesterday

I must have missed it

https://www.nytimes.com/issue/todayspaper/2020/07/02/todays-new-york-times

https://web.archive.org/web/20200702164001/https://www.cnn.com/

Fox News (who has a massive incentive to publish an article on the subject to push the "Fake News" narrative) just published theirs 6 hours ago. And it's on the front page.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/hydroxychloroquine-helped-save-coronavirus-study
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 06:31:58 PM by caffeine »

js82

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #114 on: July 03, 2020, 01:01:53 PM »

Not a media conspiracy. More a failure of scientific journals to do peer reviews.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/04/researchers-retract-study-that-found-big-risks-using-hydroxychloroquine-treat-covid-19/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/covid-19-surgisphere-who-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine

Essentially a small company made up a study, then medical journals printed it and the media didn't ask questions.

Just bureaucracy being bureaucracy.

I was referring more to the multiple "no evidence of benefit or harm" studies that came out on the initial wave of HCQ studies, than the Surgisphere debacle.

That said, the Surgisphere thing was beyond awful.  As a scientist(in another field) who read the study, my initial reaction upon reading it was something along the lines of "something doesn't seem right here" - some of the numbers they published were simply so far out of line with other available data that it didn't make sense - if Surgisphere's numbers were real, we'd have seen signs of it in other studies.  It should have raised a few eyebrows with reviewers prior to publication - the data patterns were that strange.  It bothers me that the data patterns were enough to strike me as odd after a quick read, and yet it wasn't thoroughly investigated by the journal(which presumably has people whose job it is to review these kinds of articles) before publication.

It should be more incumbent on the scientific journals to review articles to make sure things like this don't make it through without proper review.  The media that most of the lay public consumes is not equipped to dig deep enough into scientific studies to identify flaws(or signs of data falsification) like this - the scientific community needs to take the time to make sure what they're broadcasting to the rest of the world is good science, before they broadcast it.

Tyler durden

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #115 on: July 03, 2020, 01:39:22 PM »

bacchi

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #116 on: July 03, 2020, 01:49:05 PM »
Incredible. It seems the only reason the media was so against hydroxychloroquine is because Trump was publicly optimistic about it - likely because he was briefed on it being used in non-clinical capacity.

The reason people were against it is because Trump was pushing for it without any proof that it worked.

Unless you're suggesting that he knew the results of this study months before the results were released. Now that would be incredible.

Trump's enthusiasm for the drugs was based on a French study of 20 patients in March that showed the drugs might work against the virus. He was obviously briefed on it and was publicly hoping it was going to work. He probably shouldn't have mentioned it.

Yep.

Maybe he should've left cures to the agency and scientists who know how to deal this type of situation.

It does beg the question...why did he keep doubling down, even after the French study was critiqued from California to France and multiple other studies showed no effect, at best?

caffeine

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #117 on: July 03, 2020, 02:10:12 PM »
Incredible. It seems the only reason the media was so against hydroxychloroquine is because Trump was publicly optimistic about it - likely because he was briefed on it being used in non-clinical capacity.

The reason people were against it is because Trump was pushing for it without any proof that it worked.

Unless you're suggesting that he knew the results of this study months before the results were released. Now that would be incredible.

Trump's enthusiasm for the drugs was based on a French study of 20 patients in March that showed the drugs might work against the virus. He was obviously briefed on it and was publicly hoping it was going to work. He probably shouldn't have mentioned it.

Yep.

Maybe he should've left cures to the agency and scientists who know how to deal this type of situation.

It does beg the question...why did he keep doubling down, even after the French study was critiqued from California to France and multiple other studies showed no effect, at best?

Trump reminds me of my grandfather (just in stubbornness). Shoots from the hip and can't admit he's wrong. His first comments on the drug sounded like optimism and not validation. After the press bashed him, he sorta doubled/tripled down that it worked just to spite his opponents.

We should only be so fortunate that hydroxychloroquine doesn't kill - and may in fact be helpful based on the latest study. If it wasn't the case, then I imagine a lot of resources were probably wasted because of the weight of what a sitting US President speculated.

In politics, rarely a politician will admit they're wrong - but they also rarely put themselves in such a position such as the efficacy of a drug during a global pandemic.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 02:15:53 PM by caffeine »

hops

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #118 on: July 03, 2020, 03:34:14 PM »
The continued politicization of this drug is just bizarre. The Henry Ford press release seems to have roundly underwhelmed many experts, while the usual snake oil salespeople and armchair doctors on social media are crowing and screaming about conspiracies.

LWYRUP

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #119 on: July 03, 2020, 04:22:32 PM »
I have not read this thread.

I would take it based on my doctor's advice.  I would not take it if my doctor did not advise it.

I would assume my doctor was far more competent in these matters than me.  If I doubted that, I would just get a second opinion from another qualified professional.

The idea that there are "red team" drugs and "blue team" drugs is disheartening.  I hope to God my doctor ignores this bullshit.

hops

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #120 on: July 04, 2020, 11:31:45 AM »
I would assume my doctor was far more competent in these matters than me. If I doubted that, I would just get a second opinion from another qualified professional.

The idea that there are "red team" drugs and "blue team" drugs is disheartening.  I hope to God my doctor ignores this bullshit.

You probably don't have much to worry about. While cable news and the Internet "both sides" everything to death, that's not how science works or how medicine is practiced. The most anti-Trump doctors in the world would've been over the moon if hydroxychloroquine had been a wonder drug, regardless of what Laura Ingraham or Twitter randos think.

scottish

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2020, 07:04:35 AM »
The WHO announced that hydroxychloroquine doesn't help and they are discontinuing further trials.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-who-halts-hydroxychloroquine-hiv-drugs-in-covid-trials-after-failure-3/

BussoV6

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #122 on: July 07, 2020, 02:41:32 AM »
At least it was a "less stupid" suggestion than injecting detergents and sunlight. Give the man some credit!

Travis

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Re: Would you take Hydroxychloroquine?
« Reply #123 on: July 07, 2020, 06:00:14 AM »
This girl's family appears to have hit as many COVID bingo squares as possible.
-Church gathering
-Hydroxychloroquine and another antibiotic as a preventative measure (generally not how antibiotics are supposed to be used)
-Anti-mask
-Tried to home remedy or use barely tested treatments
-Followed ICU doc's advice at the last minute and then blame the docs

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/07/07/florida-carsyn-davis-coronavirus/