Author Topic: Words/phrases I wish would go away  (Read 611872 times)

Morning Glory

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4867
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1350 on: December 15, 2020, 07:25:24 AM »
In APA format you only use etc. within a parenthetical statement. You spell out "et cetera" otherwise, therefore avoiding the two period problem. Same for other abbreviations. I don't know about the other formats, they confuse me.

chaskavitch

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1029
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Fort Collins, CO
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1351 on: December 15, 2020, 07:30:13 AM »
In APA format you only use etc. within a parenthetical statement. You spell out "et cetera" otherwise, therefore avoiding the two period problem. Same for other abbreviations. I don't know about the other formats, they confuse me.

Well that makes a lot of sense :)  Thank you!

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1352 on: December 15, 2020, 08:00:53 AM »
I found diagramming extremely helpful. It taught me the relationships between various parts of speech. It also taught me things like how to balance clauses. Through a mechanical look at sentence construction, I was able to grasp basic concepts of 'style' like parallelism, choosing where to place the semantic weight in a clause, etc

That was in Year 7 English

Then Year 11 linguistics we learnt terms like assonance, phonology, phonetics, register etc and that also made my understanding of language better

But even in year 2 English I remember learning phonics - ie how to spell

I think these days there is a reluctance to boil language teaching down to nuts and bolts and it's a real shame b/c nuts and bolts are where style comes from - you can't have fair and creativity in your writing without mastering the basics of parts of speech, subject-verb agreement, clause construction, sentence weighting, and so on

zolotiyeruki

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5603
  • Location: State: Denial
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1353 on: December 15, 2020, 02:47:37 PM »
...
- My wife and I's house.
...
I'll admit that even with my college education and general careful grammar, I still get regularly flummoxed by this one.  <runs off to look it up>  Ok, so when mixing nouns with pronouns, both owners require their own possessive form.

I really feel sorry for people who have to learn English as a second language.

An easy way to remember this kind of combination of possessives is “how would I say each one separately?”  “My wife’s house” and “my house,” right?  So then it’s  “My wife’s and my house.”  It’s easy, you just have to think a little ahead.  This also works for pronouns.  If you wouldn’t say “Her went to the store,” then you don’t say “Her and I went to the store.”  However you would say each person individually is how you say them together.
Right, but it doesn't apply the same way when it's two nouns, e.g. "Mike and Barb's house" vs a noun and a pronoun "Mary's and my house".  I think I have it now, but man, English is hard.

Quote
Improper use of the word 'data'. Data is the plural of 'datum'.
  Sadly, the ship has kinda sailed on this one.  "Data" has morphed into an uncountable noun (like "water", "sand", "space", etc.).

HPstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2859
  • Age: 37
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1354 on: December 15, 2020, 03:04:24 PM »
Improper use of the word 'data'. Data is the plural of 'datum'.

This datum is inconsistent with that other datum, but these data are consistent.

Similarly with strategy/stratagem.

Interesting.  I did not know that about data vs. datum.  It's particularly interesting because my definition of datum as one who works in 3D CAD all day has nothing to do with a plurality of data, but rather a plane in 3 dimensional space.

SunnyDays

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3489
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1355 on: December 15, 2020, 03:25:03 PM »
In the same vein, it also bugs me when people don’t know the difference between an adjective and an adverb.  So many times, I hear people use the former when they should use the latter, as in “he did that perfect” instead of “perfectly.”  It just seems so simple to me that I don’t understand why people don’t know it.

I also wonder if there’s a difference between American and Commonwealth countrys’ curricula?  (See, that’s the plural of curriculum, just like data/datum!). Or just old school versus new school.  I’ll have to ask my teacher neighbours what their kids are learning.

ixtap

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4561
  • Age: 51
  • Location: SoCal
    • Our Sea Story
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1356 on: December 15, 2020, 03:29:50 PM »
In the same vein, it also bugs me when people don’t know the difference between an adjective and an adverb.  So many times, I hear people use the former when they should use the latter, as in “he did that perfect” instead of “perfectly.”  It just seems so simple to me that I don’t understand why people don’t know it.

I also wonder if there’s a difference between American and Commonwealth countrys’ curricula?  (See, that’s the plural of curriculum, just like data/datum!). Or just old school versus new school.  I’ll have to ask my teacher neighbours what their kids are learning.

How we speak is more influenced by those around us than by what we learn about grammar in a classroom. I have a few verbal quirks that I have picked up from around the country. Some are useful, like y'all and all y'all.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1357 on: December 15, 2020, 03:41:10 PM »
In the same vein, it also bugs me when people don’t know the difference between an adjective and an adverb.  So many times, I hear people use the former when they should use the latter, as in “he did that perfect” instead of “perfectly.”  It just seems so simple to me that I don’t understand why people don’t know it.

I also wonder if there’s a difference between American and Commonwealth countrys’ curricula?  (See, that’s the plural of curriculum, just like data/datum!). Or just old school versus new school.  I’ll have to ask my teacher neighbours what their kids are learning.

I went to school in the States and the English teaching was amazing. So focussed on grammar and mechanics and good, proper writing.

English teaching here in Australia is complete shit. You're encouraged to critically analyse texts' themes etc blah blah (not a bad thing of itself) but there's no attention paid to mechanics. We weren't even taught what an adverb or a preposition is. No focus on sentence building. Just mushy liberal values and critical analysis. Again, nothing wrong with that, but you have to walk before you can run.

GreenToTheCore

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 434
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1358 on: December 15, 2020, 04:44:42 PM »
Me too. I remember diagramming sentences in eighth grade. I wonder if they still do that? I also had Latin, which helped a lot.
Sentence diagraming was in 8th grade for me, too. Although, I think it started in 4th grade. We had to memorize all the prepositions (the test was a long numbered list and we had to fill it in) and quite a few root words and affixes.
Anyone else remember watching educational videos on root woods with a host who had a pretty impressive 70's man-perm?

Morning Glory

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4867
  • Location: The Garden Path
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1359 on: December 15, 2020, 04:56:12 PM »
Me too. I remember diagramming sentences in eighth grade. I wonder if they still do that? I also had Latin, which helped a lot.
Sentence diagraming was in 8th grade for me, too. Although, I think it started in 4th grade. We had to memorize all the prepositions (the test was a long numbered list and we had to fill it in) and quite a few root words and affixes.
Anyone else remember watching educational videos on root woods with a host who had a pretty impressive 70's man-perm?
I don't remember what we did before 8th grade. I switched schools that year so maybe that's why I remember. The teacher must have made an impression. I remember a lot of the other kids didn't understand the diagramming, and I thought it was easier than writing papers.

I've gotten a bit sloppy over the years, especially when typing on the phone.

GreenToTheCore

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 434
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1360 on: December 15, 2020, 05:50:01 PM »
I remember a lot of the other kids didn't understand the diagramming, and I thought it was easier than writing papers.

Agreed, it was my favorite part :) Other than our teacher demonstrating iambic pentameter by playing the bongos...Mr. Wenz was a great teacher.

GreenToTheCore

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 434
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1361 on: December 15, 2020, 05:51:53 PM »
also - while i'm at it - incorrect use of apostrophes

esp leaving out the final s

"Marcus' hat took a beating"

In real life would you pronounce that without the double ess on the end? No. So add it in. Marcus's

These are all typos i see in the paper every day

I assume journalists are just stupid or they are paid 50c per word and the subeditor got sacked

This one gave me pause. It seems like it depends on what style guide you're using: https://owl.purdue.edu/owl/general_writing/punctuation/apostrophe_introduction.html#:~:text=NOTE%3A%20the%20generally%20accepted%20convention,check%20the%20style%20guide%20of

Thoughts?

It makes no sense to me to not add an S to the end of a singular proper noun (except for certain historical names). If I were to say James's hat or Marcus's hat in real life I would pronounce the double S and most people would too. I suspect the main reason journos now try to put away the S after the apostrophe is that it makes it easier to not make mistakes since it parallels the situation with plural nouns.
True, easy enough to add it. It tough when different teachers would mark you off for going against their preferred style.

Miss Piggy

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1549
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1362 on: December 15, 2020, 06:43:26 PM »
It's not the addition of the pronouns themselves that bothers me. Rather, it's the redundancy of adding multiple pronouns that basically all make the same "announcement" of the gender you prefer. If they all indicate the same gender, wouldn't one of them be enough? And recently, I saw a signature with a 4th "pronoun," but I can't recall what that 4th one was. I just remember thinking, "Wait...three wasn't enough?" Seriously, why not use just one?

There is some logic behind this one! People who are cisgender who put she/her/hers or he/him/his are usually doing it to be an ally to people who don't have a conventional gender identity. You don't need a lesson in conjugating cisgender pronouns because you already know them. But if a person is, say, nonbinary, and uses other pronouns, like singular "they" or "ze", a lot of people will not know how to conjugate those pronouns (how many people know the possessive of "ze"?). So the convention is to list the full set, so that everyone (regardless of gender identity) can use the same template without having to answer extra questions or be called the wrong thing by accident.

Okay, wait a second @Dollar Slice...what the heck is "ze"? Seriously, I have never seen or heard that. (I'm in the US Midwest, and we are generally behind the times with new trends...is this a new thing?)

Dollar Slice

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9614
  • Age: 46
  • Location: New York City
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1363 on: December 15, 2020, 07:14:34 PM »
It's not the addition of the pronouns themselves that bothers me. Rather, it's the redundancy of adding multiple pronouns that basically all make the same "announcement" of the gender you prefer. If they all indicate the same gender, wouldn't one of them be enough? And recently, I saw a signature with a 4th "pronoun," but I can't recall what that 4th one was. I just remember thinking, "Wait...three wasn't enough?" Seriously, why not use just one?

There is some logic behind this one! People who are cisgender who put she/her/hers or he/him/his are usually doing it to be an ally to people who don't have a conventional gender identity. You don't need a lesson in conjugating cisgender pronouns because you already know them. But if a person is, say, nonbinary, and uses other pronouns, like singular "they" or "ze", a lot of people will not know how to conjugate those pronouns (how many people know the possessive of "ze"?). So the convention is to list the full set, so that everyone (regardless of gender identity) can use the same template without having to answer extra questions or be called the wrong thing by accident.

Okay, wait a second @Dollar Slice...what the heck is "ze"? Seriously, I have never seen or heard that. (I'm in the US Midwest, and we are generally behind the times with new trends...is this a new thing?)

It's not very common, but it's been around for a while. It's a gender-neutral pronoun that some people who don't identify as either "he" or "she" prefer to use. I suspect it's not commonly used because so few people have heard of it that it would make one's life very tedious, having to constantly explain it.

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3104
  • she/her
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1364 on: December 15, 2020, 08:56:55 PM »
It's not the addition of the pronouns themselves that bothers me. Rather, it's the redundancy of adding multiple pronouns that basically all make the same "announcement" of the gender you prefer. If they all indicate the same gender, wouldn't one of them be enough? And recently, I saw a signature with a 4th "pronoun," but I can't recall what that 4th one was. I just remember thinking, "Wait...three wasn't enough?" Seriously, why not use just one?

There is some logic behind this one! People who are cisgender who put she/her/hers or he/him/his are usually doing it to be an ally to people who don't have a conventional gender identity. You don't need a lesson in conjugating cisgender pronouns because you already know them. But if a person is, say, nonbinary, and uses other pronouns, like singular "they" or "ze", a lot of people will not know how to conjugate those pronouns (how many people know the possessive of "ze"?). So the convention is to list the full set, so that everyone (regardless of gender identity) can use the same template without having to answer extra questions or be called the wrong thing by accident.

Okay, wait a second @Dollar Slice...what the heck is "ze"? Seriously, I have never seen or heard that. (I'm in the US Midwest, and we are generally behind the times with new trends...is this a new thing?)

It's not very common, but it's been around for a while. It's a gender-neutral pronoun that some people who don't identify as either "he" or "she" prefer to use. I suspect it's not commonly used because so few people have heard of it that it would make one's life very tedious, having to constantly explain it.

Agree with this last. I volunteer with several groups where you always introduce yourself with pronouns (or we all change our names on zoom to First Last (Pronouns)) and I have yet to see anyone use ze, zir, etc. Other than the ones you'd guess, the most common is that people use they, their or sometimes indicate flexibility, e.g. " she/they".

shelivesthedream

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6747
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1365 on: December 16, 2020, 02:35:59 AM »
I also wonder if there’s a difference between American and Commonwealth countrys’ curricula?  (See, that’s the plural of curriculum, just like data/datum!). Or just old school versus new school.  I’ll have to ask my teacher neighbours what their kids are learning.

I only found out what diagramming a sentence is when it was used so repeatedly and confusingly in an American book I read as an adult that I had to look it up. I still don't really understand the point. I mean, I kind of do, but it still seems like a really weird activity.

We were taught the names of what I would consider basic grammatical concepts, both in English classes and in compulsory foreign language classes: nouns, verbs, adjectives, tenses, etc. We were also taught formal punctuation rules. Then we moved on to literary techniques and themes: alliteration, foreshadowing, tone, etc. I feel like I had an adequate grounding in grammar without it being burdensome.

I'm 30, FWIW.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1366 on: December 16, 2020, 04:46:52 AM »
It's easier to understand exactly how, for example, adverbial or prepositional phrases (or compound sentences and complex sentences) work with sentence diagramming.

shelivesthedream

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6747
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1367 on: December 16, 2020, 06:08:17 AM »
Just seems like overkill...?

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 757
  • Location: Australia
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1368 on: December 16, 2020, 06:23:58 AM »
I guess it depends on how seriously you take your writing :)

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1369 on: December 16, 2020, 07:32:13 AM »
"Capabile" is today's entry in the file of misspelled words.

Someone misspelled "capable."

I haven't  seen it until a few minutes ago.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2020, 07:35:58 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5672
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1370 on: December 16, 2020, 07:48:13 AM »
Just seems like overkill...?

I always liked diagramming sentences in high school and I agree that it cements principles of language composition if you know how to diagram a sentence. In college we touched on this thing called transformational grammar that seem to me to be  diagramming on steroids. I don’t remember why I did that and what it was for, I just remember thinking wow people can get PhD’s in this shit, it is complex.

Are there any aficionados of transformational grammar and diagramming here? You could probably explain it better than I can, I have only a vague memory of it.

John Galt incarnate!

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2038
  • Location: On Cloud Nine
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1371 on: December 16, 2020, 10:38:02 AM »
I HATE euphemisms.

I'm weary of "porch pirates," a euphemism for the thieves who steal parcels left on porches or near front doors.

Kris

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7335
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1372 on: December 16, 2020, 10:44:29 AM »
I HATE euphemisms.

I'm weary of "porch pirates," a euphemism for the thieves who steal parcels left on porches or near front doors.

I mean, yeah, I guess? But I don't think people are using that term because they want to soften the concept. They use it because it's a particular type of thief and it's easier to say.

"Be careful of porch pirates" is much quicker and more evocative to say than, "Be careful, there's a rash of thieves in the neighborhood who steal parcels left on porches or near front doors."

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17500
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1373 on: December 16, 2020, 01:40:48 PM »
I HATE euphemisms.

I'm weary of "porch pirates," a euphemism for the thieves who steal parcels left on porches or near front doors.

Funny - I don't consider "porch pirate" to be a euphemism at all, just an apt description of a particular kind of larceny. Like Kris said - it's an alliterative way of describing something very specific, quickly.  Doesn't seem to 'soften' or downplay the act at all. Like 'pick-pockets.'

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3104
  • she/her
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1374 on: December 16, 2020, 02:04:56 PM »
I HATE euphemisms.

I'm weary of "porch pirates," a euphemism for the thieves who steal parcels left on porches or near front doors.

Funny - I don't consider "porch pirate" to be a euphemism at all, just an apt description of a particular kind of larceny. Like Kris said - it's an alliterative way of describing something very specific, quickly.  Doesn't seem to 'soften' or downplay the act at all. Like 'pick-pockets.'

Yeah, without being too pedantic, "pirate" is actually a much worse term than "thief" in that pirates currently and historically often commit much more horrific crimes than just thieving. So it's possibly the opposite of a euphemism.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17500
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1375 on: December 16, 2020, 02:08:48 PM »
Mark Rober's* Porch Pirate glitter-bomb videos are entertaining
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_TSR_v07m0

*ha!  that's his real name... making videos about tricking robbers. 

Jouer

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 501
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1376 on: December 17, 2020, 07:37:58 AM »
This discussion of language is so interesting to me, especially the regional differences. I grew up in Newfoundland. It was so confusing learning proper English in school but not being able to use it in practice without ridicule.  It was even more confusing learning to annunciate in music classes which seemed so exaggerated relative to our usual way of speaking.

Using proper grammar and annunciation as a child got comments like this, "oh look at buddy thinks he's right proper. Thinks he's better than me. Look at the king of England over there!"

And that was just from my parents. Sigh. So for many of us, myself included, our grammar sucks.

jambongris

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 431
  • Age: 38
  • Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1377 on: December 17, 2020, 08:22:17 AM »
Mark Rober's* Porch Pirate glitter-bomb videos are entertaining
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_TSR_v07m0

*ha!  that's his real name... making videos about tricking robbers.
There’s a version 3.0 that he just put out on YouTube. His whole channel is pretty interesting, he used to work at NASA on the Mars rovers.

BlueHouse

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4136
  • Location: WDC
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1378 on: December 17, 2020, 08:35:59 AM »
pretty sure this was mentioned at least 20 pages ago, but I'm hearing more and more people talk about how they "conversate" with others. 

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5672
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1379 on: December 17, 2020, 09:29:25 AM »
pretty sure this was mentioned at least 20 pages ago, but I'm hearing more and more people talk about how they "conversate" with others.
Oh that’s interesting — funny!  Have not heard that.

Well, I guess I can conversate with my friend as we “recreate” in our Victorian walking park.

The Victorians “recreated.”

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20747
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1380 on: December 17, 2020, 09:55:15 AM »
pretty sure this was mentioned at least 20 pages ago, but I'm hearing more and more people talk about how they "conversate" with others.
Oh that’s interesting — funny!  Have not heard that.

Well, I guess I can conversate with my friend as we “recreate” in our Victorian walking park.

The Victorians “recreated.”

Every time I see recreate I think of it as creating again, not as partaking in recreation. Then my brain does the little translation.

This discussion of language is so interesting to me, especially the regional differences. I grew up in Newfoundland. It was so confusing learning proper English in school but not being able to use it in practice without ridicule.  It was even more confusing learning to annunciate in music classes which seemed so exaggerated relative to our usual way of speaking.

Using proper grammar and annunciation as a child got comments like this, "oh look at buddy thinks he's right proper. Thinks he's better than me. Look at the king of England over there!"

And that was just from my parents. Sigh. So for many of us, myself included, our grammar sucks.

When I was a kid people used to ask if I was British.  Born in Montreal, 5th generation Canadian, so definitely not British.  I guess I was also enunciiating too well?   ;-)

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20747
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1381 on: December 17, 2020, 10:02:38 AM »
Christmas songs are interesting examples of changes in word usage.

Deck the halls - I put on my gay apparel and troll the ancient Yuletide carol.  I thought people used to troll when they went fishing.  And now they go fishing on the internet to annoy people instead. 

I really miss the old meaning of gay, there is no other one word that expresses happy and light-hearted and giddy and being just full of the joy of life.  However, it's gone.   :-(

solon

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2359
  • Age: 1823
  • Location: OH
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1382 on: December 17, 2020, 10:36:27 AM »
Wal-mart
Wal-Mart
WalMart

It's just Walmart.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17500
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1383 on: December 17, 2020, 10:45:08 AM »
pretty sure this was mentioned at least 20 pages ago, but I'm hearing more and more people talk about how they "conversate" with others.
Oh that’s interesting — funny!  Have not heard that.

Well, I guess I can conversate with my friend as we “recreate” in our Victorian walking park.

The Victorians “recreated.”

Since you mentioned it...

I’ve never liked the use of “holiday” to mean “taking a trip or vacation”.  Holiday comes from Holy Day.  As in: a religious observance. ‘Secular holiday” is an oxymoron.  Telling people “my mates and I went on holiday to Las Vegas” sounds like sacrilege to me (or a very strange religion).

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17500
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1384 on: December 17, 2020, 10:47:07 AM »

When I was a kid people used to ask if I was British.  Born in Montreal, 5th generation Canadian, so definitely not British.  I guess I was also enunciiating too well?   ;-)

Ironically, about a third of people from the US will still conclude you are British if you tell them you are 5th generation Canadian
:-P

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3104
  • she/her
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1385 on: December 17, 2020, 12:03:13 PM »
pretty sure this was mentioned at least 20 pages ago, but I'm hearing more and more people talk about how they "conversate" with others.
Oh that’s interesting — funny!  Have not heard that.

Well, I guess I can conversate with my friend as we “recreate” in our Victorian walking park.

The Victorians “recreated.”

Since you mentioned it...

I’ve never liked the use of “holiday” to mean “taking a trip or vacation”.  Holiday comes from Holy Day.  As in: a religious observance. ‘Secular holiday” is an oxymoron.  Telling people “my mates and I went on holiday to Las Vegas” sounds like sacrilege to me (or a very strange religion).

What about "holiday" used to mean a day off of work?  Like Columbus Day is a "holiday" for some workplaces and not others, meaning some employers let you have the day off and some don't, obviously it's not religious at all.  Is there a different word that you think should be used for those days? (Or maybe something super obvious that I'm forgetting?) 

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17500
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1386 on: December 17, 2020, 12:33:51 PM »
pretty sure this was mentioned at least 20 pages ago, but I'm hearing more and more people talk about how they "conversate" with others.
Oh that’s interesting — funny!  Have not heard that.

Well, I guess I can conversate with my friend as we “recreate” in our Victorian walking park.

The Victorians “recreated.”

Since you mentioned it...

I’ve never liked the use of “holiday” to mean “taking a trip or vacation”.  Holiday comes from Holy Day.  As in: a religious observance. ‘Secular holiday” is an oxymoron.  Telling people “my mates and I went on holiday to Las Vegas” sounds like sacrilege to me (or a very strange religion).

What about "holiday" used to mean a day off of work?  Like Columbus Day is a "holiday" for some workplaces and not others, meaning some employers let you have the day off and some don't, obviously it's not religious at all.  Is there a different word that you think should be used for those days? (Or maybe something super obvious that I'm forgetting?)

Right.  As I said, calling Columbus Day a ‘holiday’ is an oxymoron (unless you feel Christopher Columbus is a saint or something).  Problem is we haven’t developed a great alternative word for a day off that’s not for religious observance.  A “Labor Day” might work if we hadn’t already devoted a specific day off in September.

I know in the UK they use ‘Banking Days’ (or: Bank Holiday - which works I suppose if you worship at the alter of capitalism).

But I’m more talking about the word used as an action (“I went on holiday” rather than “I went on vacation” or “I went on a trip”).  There’s nothing holy about most people’s trips, and you aren’t observing the day in question - particularly if you don’t go on an actual federal holiday.   

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1387 on: December 17, 2020, 01:12:27 PM »
Going on holiday means going on vacation in England. You know, where English originated.

"James is on holiday in Spain, he's not going to make this meeting".

No religious or mandatory state day off connotation whatsoever.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20747
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1388 on: December 17, 2020, 04:59:38 PM »
Going on holiday means going on vacation in England. You know, where English originated.

"James is on holiday in Spain, he's not going to make this meeting".

No religious or mandatory state day off connotation whatsoever.

The original holy day is built in.  Most vacation days historically were holy days, so its not surprising to see the shift.  It's a lot less of a shift than gay.  Are you all too young to miss gay?

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20747
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1389 on: December 17, 2020, 05:03:13 PM »

When I was a kid people used to ask if I was British.  Born in Montreal, 5th generation Canadian, so definitely not British.  I guess I was also enunciiating too well?   ;-)

Ironically, about a third of people from the US will still conclude you are British if you tell them you are 5th generation Canadian
:-P

My Irish and Scots ancestors would rise up from the grave and smite them.  And if my name was Tremblay? 

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17500
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1390 on: December 17, 2020, 05:16:02 PM »
Going on holiday means going on vacation in England. You know, where English originated.

"James is on holiday in Spain, he's not going to make this meeting".

No religious or mandatory state day off connotation whatsoever.

Nope and nope.  If one’s to argue language origin as some sort of certificate of authenticity, that goes to what is now Germany (where the Anglos, Jutes and Saxons of old-English came from - and from which the word England is derived (“land of the Angles”)), not Great Britain. The British of course were instrumental in spreading the English language across the globe, but modern English has only a passive resemblance to what was spoken four centuries ago.  Shakespeare’s a good barometer of how far the language has drifted (coinciding with colonization and the spread of ‘English’ all over the globe).  Now the overwhelming majority of English speakers live outside England, and its been that way for over 200 years. Unlike French, there’s no single organization that monitors and enforces ‘proper’ English.

Regardless of its usage in some corners of this planet, the etymology of holiday remains holy day.  I find that annoying when used to mean ‘on vacation’ as well as the non-sensical term ‘secular holiday’.  Which is the subject of this thread.  You can disagree, and that’s fine. The whole point of this thread (if there is one) is that some words and phrases have come into usage which others don’t like.

yakamashii

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 193
  • Location: Japan
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1391 on: December 17, 2020, 05:36:03 PM »
Christmas songs are interesting examples of changes in word usage.

Deck the halls - I put on my gay apparel and troll the ancient Yuletide carol.  I thought people used to troll when they went fishing.  And now they go fishing on the internet to annoy people instead. 

I really miss the old meaning of gay, there is no other one word that expresses happy and light-hearted and giddy and being just full of the joy of life.  However, it's gone.   :-(

Exuberant? Vivacious? Buoyant?

Paul der Krake

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5854
  • Age: 16
  • Location: UTC-10:00
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1392 on: December 17, 2020, 05:44:53 PM »
I'm not arguing that the etymology of holiday is not holy day, just that it's so far removed to be entirely irrelevant.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20747
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1393 on: December 17, 2020, 06:11:07 PM »
Christmas songs are interesting examples of changes in word usage.

Deck the halls - I put on my gay apparel and troll the ancient Yuletide carol.  I thought people used to troll when they went fishing.  And now they go fishing on the internet to annoy people instead. 

I really miss the old meaning of gay, there is no other one word that expresses happy and light-hearted and giddy and being just full of the joy of life.  However, it's gone.   :-(

Exuberant? Vivacious? Buoyant?

Sort of but not really.   We really did lose a disginct word.

sui generis

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3104
  • she/her
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1394 on: December 17, 2020, 06:58:41 PM »
Just listened to this podcast today and the end, especially, is *so pertinent* to this thread. Take a listen or Ctrol+F for McWhorter to read the on-point section in the transcript: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/19/630482636/radio-replay-watch-your-mouth

GreenSheep

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1072
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1395 on: December 18, 2020, 05:54:37 AM »
Just listened to this podcast today and the end, especially, is *so pertinent* to this thread. Take a listen or Ctrol+F for McWhorter to read the on-point section in the transcript: https://www.npr.org/2018/07/19/630482636/radio-replay-watch-your-mouth

GREAT find!! Thanks for sharing!

yakamashii

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 193
  • Location: Japan
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1396 on: December 18, 2020, 07:21:15 AM »
Christmas songs are interesting examples of changes in word usage.

Deck the halls - I put on my gay apparel and troll the ancient Yuletide carol.  I thought people used to troll when they went fishing.  And now they go fishing on the internet to annoy people instead. 

I really miss the old meaning of gay, there is no other one word that expresses happy and light-hearted and giddy and being just full of the joy of life.  However, it's gone.   :-(

Exuberant? Vivacious? Buoyant?

Sort of but not really.   We really did lose a disginct word.

Man, I simply have to disagree. Your "gay" is my "exuberant" to a tee.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 17500
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1397 on: December 18, 2020, 07:58:17 AM »
Christmas songs are interesting examples of changes in word usage.

Deck the halls - I put on my gay apparel and troll the ancient Yuletide carol.  I thought people used to troll when they went fishing.  And now they go fishing on the internet to annoy people instead. 

I really miss the old meaning of gay, there is no other one word that expresses happy and light-hearted and giddy and being just full of the joy of life.  However, it's gone.   :-(

Exuberant? Vivacious? Buoyant?

Sort of but not really.   We really did lose a disginct word.

Man, I simply have to disagree. Your "gay" is my "exuberant" to a tee.

For me, “exuberant” is an ephemeral emotion - “I was exuberant after my first kiss”.  Gay is... something less pronounced but often longer-lasting.  The general attitude of someone might be gay, whereas they are exuberant in the moment.

RetiredAt63

  • CMTO 2023 Attendees
  • Senior Mustachian
  • *
  • Posts: 20747
  • Location: Eastern Ontario, Canada
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1398 on: December 18, 2020, 08:29:14 AM »
Christmas songs are interesting examples of changes in word usage.

Deck the halls - I put on my gay apparel and troll the ancient Yuletide carol.  I thought people used to troll when they went fishing.  And now they go fishing on the internet to annoy people instead. 

I really miss the old meaning of gay, there is no other one word that expresses happy and light-hearted and giddy and being just full of the joy of life.  However, it's gone.   :-(

Exuberant? Vivacious? Buoyant?

Sort of but not really.   We really did lose a disginct word.

Man, I simply have to disagree. Your "gay" is my "exuberant" to a tee.

For me, “exuberant” is an ephemeral emotion - “I was exuberant after my first kiss”.  Gay is... something less pronounced but often longer-lasting.  The general attitude of someone might be gay, whereas they are exuberant in the moment.

Dictionary : lighthearted and carefree.  Not sure carefree is a big component since one can have cares and still feel gay, but it's pretty good.  So not as ephemeral and energetic as exuberant.  For me it is sort of like sparkling inside.

shelivesthedream

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 6747
  • Location: London, UK
Re: Words/phrases I wish would go away
« Reply #1399 on: December 18, 2020, 12:08:42 PM »
I concur, young as I am, that it was a distinct word. That's kind of the point of words. That they mean something particular, or at least have particular overtones or connotations. Otherwise they would be so redundant that they would fall out of use. You can never just substitute one for another, even alleged synonyms, without some fractional change of meaning.