Author Topic: Is Tesla a good investment?  (Read 613562 times)

LightTripper

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3050 on: May 13, 2025, 02:43:51 AM »
Speaking at speed I'm not sure one can actually distinguish "a" and "the" in full flow.  Somebody good at lipreading might be able to.  In any case, he then says "Tesla and Waymo are the top two" so this seems to be an argument about whether Tesla is first or "merely" top two.  Seems a funny thing to get excited about if everybody agrees those two are meaningfully ahead of the competition (and the guy does a scales/weighing hand gesture when he mentions the two, suggesting he doesn't see them as very far apart).

I do find the whole market fascinating but have no skin in the game (beyond index funds).  Musk going against his core customer base politically seems a weird decision but I guess he has the money and power to do it, so we don't really need an explanation beyond "he wants to".  In terms of the impact on the firm, if they really are as far ahead as some believe and he becomes an impediment to that then presumably at some point the Board can eject him? 

From a European perspective, with the huge range of different manufacturers selling excellent BEVs here with increasingly impressive/usable range and a constantly improving public charging infrastructure, it seems hard to believe Tesla is really meaningfully far ahead in that field (despite being an early leader) - many others seem caught up or pretty close.   I know nothing about the autonomous driving etc.  I do wonder whether in that field being a follower might be the safer path (see the mistakes the leader makes - and gets sued for - and learn from that to establish a reputation for safety).  But history will eventually tell us the answer.

waltworks

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3051 on: May 13, 2025, 06:28:57 AM »
I even sold off a good chunk to lock in some profits.

If that's not a bad sign I don't know what is!

-W

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3052 on: May 13, 2025, 07:05:42 PM »
I even sold off a good chunk to lock in some profits.

If that's not a bad sign I don't know what is!

-W

Building a house.  Also bought back about half those shares during latest dip.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3053 on: May 14, 2025, 01:03:05 PM »
… it seems hard to believe Tesla is really meaningfully far ahead in that field (despite being an early leader) - many others seem caught up or pretty close.   I know nothing about the autonomous driving etc.  I do wonder whether in that field being a follower might be the safer path (see the mistakes the leader makes - and gets sued for - and learn from that to establish a reputation for safety).  But history will eventually tell us the answer.
History is full of examples where the first mover in a new market or technology is outpaced by companies who entered the market later. For example:

Nokia>Apple
IBM>Dell
MySpace>Facebook
Five-and-Dime>WalMart
Pets.com>Chewy

Sometimes the incumbent is dethroned due to technological advancements, and other times it is due to management mistakes.

Telecaster

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3054 on: May 14, 2025, 05:02:18 PM »
Sometimes the incumbent is dethroned due to technological advancements, and other times it is due to management mistakes.

Sometimes in the case of dirty pool, which is how IE dethroned Netscape, which in turn was dethroned by Chrome because of complacency.  Microsoft Edge is based on Chromium.     

Tesla is a special case.  It was explained to me they are voluntarily ceding their EV market dominance in order explore other opportunities.    I've never heard of a market leader just giving up like that before.  Gutsy move, if true.   

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3055 on: May 15, 2025, 07:31:38 AM »
Tesla is a special case.  It was explained to me they are voluntarily ceding their EV market dominance in order explore other opportunities.    I've never heard of a market leader just giving up like that before.  Gutsy move, if true.
Tesla management looked at their three-digit PE ratio, looked at a trajectory of becoming a regular mass-production low-margin automaker with a single-digit PE ratio, and decided to gamble it all on remaining a cutting edge growth company forever by continually inventing new growth narratives. 

It probably seemed like a risky move at the time. They knew internally that unsupervised, not-geofenced FSD was a very, very long ways off from being a sell-able or profitable product. They should have known that the cybertruck was going to be a niche product and a loss leader, because it was a product for investors not consumers. And the whole solar / tunnel drilling themes were already played out.

Yet the same market that brutally punishes other companies for missing earnings forecasts by a penny has been remarkably forgiving of Tesla's multiple failures to launch profitable products, even after burning over a half billion a year in R&D.

The company is running off the profits from selling model Y's and model 3's, and burning most of the cash flow from these auto businesses on R&D trying to find that next great non-car thing that will keep their stock afloat. Even if every one of Tesla's latest and greatest new product ideas turned out to be a flop, it seems they could still maintain their high PE ratio as long as they had a new crop of latest and greatest ideas to replace the old ones.

When does the vaporware music stop? When do investors bail on the unfulfilled promises, the way they bail on pharmaceutical firms whose promising products prove ineffective at generating profit?

In Tesla's earlier history, the company was only saved by fresh investment capital when they started being able to actually mass-produce a product the public wanted - the Model 3. Perhaps a high-margin FSD package with a semi-acceptable crash rate (maybe a fatality rate on par with sport motorcycles would be acceptable?) will save them, now that the US market is walled off against BYD's rapidly-improving free solution. But no, it won't be the Optimus remote-controlled robot or a "cyber-taxi". By failing to release an affordable "Model 2" or a more practical light truck, Tesla is betting that their legacy cash cows will continue to subsidize investors' hopes of the next great thing.

The unraveling scenario goes like this:

1) Model Y and Model 3 sales tank, because these models haven't been updated in many years (already happening) and EV demand collapses in the US as tax benefits are rolled back starting in January 2026.

2) TSLA's earnings swing negative, and the company must throttle back investing cash flows, including R&D, for the first time ever.

3) TSLA stock falls because the reduction in R&D spending reduces the odds of the company breaking open whole new industries or owning major technological breakthroughs. The reduction also reduces the chances of a meaningful refresh for Tesla's legacy products.

4) In desperation, Musk introduces "Johnny Cab" which is driven by a fake Optimus robot and is designed to work on Mars. The prototype explodes, killing Musk, after he throws a bowling ball at the robot's head.

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3056 on: May 15, 2025, 07:35:53 AM »
4) In desperation, Musk introduces "Johnny Cab" which is driven by a fake Optimus robot and is designed to work on Mars.

This image really brings Musk's strategy together.  It makes sense, now!

FireLane

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3057 on: May 15, 2025, 08:03:23 AM »
A group of Tesla employees have published an open letter calling on Musk to step down:

https://electrek.co/2025/05/11/tesla-employees-ask-elon-musk-resign-confirm-massive-demand-problem-get-fired/

It says that Tesla sales in the U.S. are falling, even though overall EV demand is increasing, and unsold inventory is piling up. It says that there are no problems with quality (I don't agree with that, but whatever), and no shortfall of production. The only problem is the guy at the top:

Quote
Elon’s recent claim that he is “refocusing” on Tesla is not only tone-deaf, it’s insulting. It implies that the hardships of the past six months stem from a lack of his attention, not from his actions. It shifts the blame onto the very people who have held this company together. Let’s be clear: we are not the problem. Our products are not the problem. Our engineering, service, and delivery teams are not the problem. The problem is demand. The problem is Elon.

It's not clear how many people signed onto this, since they obviously fear retribution. The one Tesla employee who was willing to put his name on it has already been fired.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3058 on: May 15, 2025, 09:57:45 AM »
A group of Tesla employees have published an open letter calling on Musk to step down:

https://electrek.co/2025/05/11/tesla-employees-ask-elon-musk-resign-confirm-massive-demand-problem-get-fired/

It says that Tesla sales in the U.S. are falling, even though overall EV demand is increasing, and unsold inventory is piling up. It says that there are no problems with quality (I don't agree with that, but whatever), and no shortfall of production. The only problem is the guy at the top:

Quote
Elon’s recent claim that he is “refocusing” on Tesla is not only tone-deaf, it’s insulting. It implies that the hardships of the past six months stem from a lack of his attention, not from his actions. It shifts the blame onto the very people who have held this company together. Let’s be clear: we are not the problem. Our products are not the problem. Our engineering, service, and delivery teams are not the problem. The problem is demand. The problem is Elon.

It's not clear how many people signed onto this, since they obviously fear retribution. The one Tesla employee who was willing to put his name on it has already been fired.
Always nice to hear employees talking about the struggles to hold their company together. It certainly implies there are forces that would pull the company apart.

reeshau

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reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3060 on: May 16, 2025, 07:46:13 AM »
I just listened to the latest Road to Autonomy podcast, and have figured out why the robotaxi launch is in June:  according to Grayson Brulte, his FSD 13 Tesla cannot recognize school zones.

Better work on that "edge case" that is in every town in America.

He also mentioned that it could not recognize ducks crossing the road.

More seriously, the podcast was centered on Waymo, and its position in the market.  Relevant to the upthread conversation.

HPstache

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3061 on: May 16, 2025, 09:44:59 AM »
I just listened to the latest Road to Autonomy podcast, and have figured out why the robotaxi launch is in June:  according to Grayson Brulte, his FSD 13 Tesla cannot recognize school zones.

Better work on that "edge case" that is in every town in America.

He also mentioned that it could not recognize ducks crossing the road.

More seriously, the podcast was centered on Waymo, and its position in the market.  Relevant to the upthread conversation.

What is it about school zones that would make the Tesla FSD behave differently?  I know the obvious answer is there are students around, but the FSD is already obeying speed limits, braking for pedestrians, etc... so are we expecting it to be "extra diligent" in a school zone, or what?

GuitarStv

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3062 on: May 16, 2025, 09:56:20 AM »
the FSD is already obeying speed limits, braking for pedestrians, etc...

I think this is the incorrect assumption you're making.

Tesla's FSD has always previously allowed a driver to go well above the posted speed limit.  My understanding is that the current release of FSD has limited this (much to the consternation of Tesla owners) so that it will now only maintain above the speed limit if the user presses the accelerator to push the car beyond the speed it initially chooses - but FSD will still speed.

There are too many instances to post of Teslas using FSD not braking for pedestrians or causing other safety concerns.
- https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/teslas-full-self-driving-sees-pedestrian-chooses-not-to-slow-down/
- https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/25/23737972/tesla-whistleblower-leak-fsd-complaints-self-driving
- https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/fsd-12-supervised-erratic-behavior.32739/

HPstache

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3063 on: May 16, 2025, 10:07:33 AM »
the FSD is already obeying speed limits, braking for pedestrians, etc...

I think this is the incorrect assumption you're making.

Tesla's FSD has always previously allowed a driver to go well above the posted speed limit.  My understanding is that the current release of FSD has limited this (much to the consternation of Tesla owners) so that it will now only maintain above the speed limit if the user presses the accelerator to push the car beyond the speed it initially chooses - but FSD will still speed.

There are too many instances to post of Teslas using FSD not braking for pedestrians or causing other safety concerns.
- https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/teslas-full-self-driving-sees-pedestrian-chooses-not-to-slow-down/
- https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/25/23737972/tesla-whistleblower-leak-fsd-complaints-self-driving
- https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/fsd-12-supervised-erratic-behavior.32739/

Then FSD is not ready for those reasons, not because it "can't recognize a school zone", right?

dividendman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3064 on: May 16, 2025, 10:36:36 AM »
Got some puts $250, 8/15 ~$8. Gambling is fun lol.

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3065 on: May 16, 2025, 10:43:24 AM »
I just listened to the latest Road to Autonomy podcast, and have figured out why the robotaxi launch is in June:  according to Grayson Brulte, his FSD 13 Tesla cannot recognize school zones.

Better work on that "edge case" that is in every town in America.

He also mentioned that it could not recognize ducks crossing the road.

More seriously, the podcast was centered on Waymo, and its position in the market.  Relevant to the upthread conversation.

What is it about school zones that would make the Tesla FSD behave differently?  I know the obvious answer is there are students around, but the FSD is already obeying speed limits, braking for pedestrians, etc... so are we expecting it to be "extra diligent" in a school zone, or what?

It's not my observation, but the comment was that the car was not slowing down for the school zone.  Maybe it was based on flashing lights being active?  He sid not elaborate.

It was alarming toothed commentator because a cop was there, monitoring traffic.  And this is not an uneducated consumer, but a reporter on autonomous vehicles.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2025, 10:45:37 AM by reeshau »

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3066 on: May 16, 2025, 10:48:40 AM »
A quick Google brought up this exchange from r/TeslaLounge, dated 6 months ago:

So does FSD not do school zones?

Software

I'm one of the lucky recipients of the free FSD for a month. And so far I've enjoyed it mostly. Except for around school zones. When the lights are flashing for reduced speeds, the car doesn't seem to recognize it and adjust speed accordingly. Previously I would just manually adjust the speed with the scroller wheel, but with the latest updated that allows for automatic flow of traffic speed setting, I have to disengage it entirely when going through a school zone. Is this just a setting that needs to be adjusted, or is this a big gap in FSD? I mean, we already know the sensor hated kids before...

Not yet. If there are cars going slow it will mimic them, but it won't decide to slow down on its own. You can turn off Auto Max, and manually reduce the speed limit of FSD at a school zone, if you want to keep using it.

bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3067 on: May 16, 2025, 10:50:04 AM »
Does it still try to go around stopped school buses?

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3068 on: May 16, 2025, 11:05:41 AM »
Here's a driving video of it, dated a month ago. (Not the same guy)

https://youtu.be/p305-vKJ8os?si=XfZeKEGAWEqrrU5J

Of course, I also notice the car doing 65 in a 50 mph zone.  So, maybe it's just applying the same logic to all roads.

I did see in another video where it followed a school. Us correctly, and recognized the stop sign when extended.  The graphic flattered between identifying it as a bus, truck, or car, so there was nothing specific about a school bus.  The graphic showed a top sign on a post, next to the vehicle.

https://youtu.be/Sl4FWBoeg3I?si=1j9uSW38a50d30Wl

This same driver has a different video complaining that now, on a rural road, his Tesla will NOT pass a slow-moving vehicle.  He simulated tractor speeds with another Tesla.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2025, 11:08:43 AM by reeshau »

GuitarStv

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3069 on: May 16, 2025, 11:50:51 AM »
the FSD is already obeying speed limits, braking for pedestrians, etc...

I think this is the incorrect assumption you're making.

Tesla's FSD has always previously allowed a driver to go well above the posted speed limit.  My understanding is that the current release of FSD has limited this (much to the consternation of Tesla owners) so that it will now only maintain above the speed limit if the user presses the accelerator to push the car beyond the speed it initially chooses - but FSD will still speed.

There are too many instances to post of Teslas using FSD not braking for pedestrians or causing other safety concerns.
- https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/teslas-full-self-driving-sees-pedestrian-chooses-not-to-slow-down/
- https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/25/23737972/tesla-whistleblower-leak-fsd-complaints-self-driving
- https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/fsd-12-supervised-erratic-behavior.32739/

Then FSD is not ready for those reasons, not because it "can't recognize a school zone", right?

Well . . . yeah.  But FSD is coming to a street near you soon, regardless of readiness.

bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3070 on: May 16, 2025, 01:11:50 PM »
the FSD is already obeying speed limits, braking for pedestrians, etc...

I think this is the incorrect assumption you're making.

Tesla's FSD has always previously allowed a driver to go well above the posted speed limit.  My understanding is that the current release of FSD has limited this (much to the consternation of Tesla owners) so that it will now only maintain above the speed limit if the user presses the accelerator to push the car beyond the speed it initially chooses - but FSD will still speed.

There are too many instances to post of Teslas using FSD not braking for pedestrians or causing other safety concerns.
- https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/teslas-full-self-driving-sees-pedestrian-chooses-not-to-slow-down/
- https://www.theverge.com/2023/5/25/23737972/tesla-whistleblower-leak-fsd-complaints-self-driving
- https://www.teslaownersonline.com/threads/fsd-12-supervised-erratic-behavior.32739/

Then FSD is not ready for those reasons, not because it "can't recognize a school zone", right?

Well . . . yeah.  But FSD is coming to a street near you soon, regardless of readiness.

Ducklings being run over? Game over.

41_swish

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3071 on: May 16, 2025, 03:50:18 PM »
TSLA just seems to keep pumping. They must know something that I don't. I just don't get it.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3072 on: May 16, 2025, 03:59:49 PM »
TSLA just seems to keep pumping. They must know something that I don't. I just don't get it.
It's a high beta stock in a rising market. It also fell hard in the recent correction.

The S&P500 had fallen about -18.4% from the 2/19/2025 top to the 4/8/2025 bottom, but TSLA fell -37.7% in the same timeframe. In YTD terms, the S&P500 is now UP +0.87% and TSLA is down -16.15%.

Those who ride the lightning will feel the sizzle.

dragoncar

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3073 on: May 16, 2025, 11:08:42 PM »
To be fair, most human Tesla drivers also cannot recognize a school zone.

Also, the passing experiment was designed poorly.  Teslas will not pass other teslas


MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3075 on: May 19, 2025, 01:41:16 AM »
https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/jp-morgan-raises-position-in-tesla-to-a-new-record-high/

https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/blackrock-boosts-tesla-stake-for-23rd-straight-quarter-reaches-record-206m-shares/

https://x.com/TheSonOfWalkley/status/1923794687048954164

Apparently institutional buyers have not been keeping up with this thread to learn that Tesla is in fact doomed (again).

In the past dozens of posts, yours is the only one using the word "doomed".  You're creating a fake argument to shoot down.

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3076 on: May 19, 2025, 05:40:58 AM »
https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/jp-morgan-raises-position-in-tesla-to-a-new-record-high/

https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/blackrock-boosts-tesla-stake-for-23rd-straight-quarter-reaches-record-206m-shares/

https://x.com/TheSonOfWalkley/status/1923794687048954164

Apparently institutional buyers have not been keeping up with this thread to learn that Tesla is in fact doomed (again).

In the past dozens of posts, yours is the only one using the word "doomed".  You're creating a fake argument to shoot down.

Yes!  My point has been that a simple pullback to, say, Nvidia's P/E would be a 75% drop from here.

It's not exactly that Nvidia is hated, or that that would put TSLA at a below-market multiple, or something.

It's how far into nosebleed territory the stock is.

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3077 on: May 19, 2025, 05:53:24 AM »
Business Insider just did a head-to-head test of FSD (13.2.8) vs. Waymo in San Francisco, using a round trip.  At the halfway point, the judgement was neck-and-neck.  On the return trip, however, the Tesla ran a red light.

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3078 on: May 19, 2025, 10:56:32 AM »
Business Insider just did a head-to-head test of FSD (13.2.8) vs. Waymo in San Francisco, using a round trip.  At the halfway point, the judgement was neck-and-neck.  On the return trip, however, the Tesla ran a red light.

Tesla is dooooomed!!

41_swish

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3079 on: May 19, 2025, 11:54:56 AM »
How does Tesla every justify it's crazy valuation? What is the end game for them? Are the cars just a means to an end? I don't get it. I guess it keeps making the S&P 500 pump

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3080 on: May 19, 2025, 12:25:05 PM »
https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/jp-morgan-raises-position-in-tesla-to-a-new-record-high/

https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/blackrock-boosts-tesla-stake-for-23rd-straight-quarter-reaches-record-206m-shares/

https://x.com/TheSonOfWalkley/status/1923794687048954164

Apparently institutional buyers have not been keeping up with this thread to learn that Tesla is in fact doomed (again).

In the past dozens of posts, yours is the only one using the word "doomed".  You're creating a fake argument to shoot down.

Yes!  My point has been that a simple pullback to, say, Nvidia's P/E would be a 75% drop from here.

It's not exactly that Nvidia is hated, or that that would put TSLA at a below-market multiple, or something.

It's how far into nosebleed territory the stock is.

Don't know what to tell you. Clearly, Vanguard, JP Morgan, and Black Rock are not concerned with Tesla's P/E ratio. Likely because they have come around to the fact that Tesla is not a car company, so judging investment worthiness off a PE ratio driven by car sales and skewed by reinvestment into new products is not the correct metric for this stock. They see the TAMs of FSD, robot taxis, semi truck, Tesla energy, AI, and humanoid robotics. They have access to Tesla that retail does not and they are clearly satisfied that Tesla is making progress and/or the leader in one of more of these growth ventures. What's really interesting is that JP Morgan has been talking down Tesla the company (scaring off retail investors), at the same time they've been gobbling up shares. Pretty evident they see the stock price increasing in the not too distant future or they would wait to buy down the road.

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3081 on: May 19, 2025, 12:27:58 PM »
https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/jp-morgan-raises-position-in-tesla-to-a-new-record-high/

https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/blackrock-boosts-tesla-stake-for-23rd-straight-quarter-reaches-record-206m-shares/

https://x.com/TheSonOfWalkley/status/1923794687048954164

Apparently institutional buyers have not been keeping up with this thread to learn that Tesla is in fact doomed (again).

In the past dozens of posts, yours is the only one using the word "doomed".  You're creating a fake argument to shoot down.

Yes!  My point has been that a simple pullback to, say, Nvidia's P/E would be a 75% drop from here.

It's not exactly that Nvidia is hated, or that that would put TSLA at a below-market multiple, or something.

It's how far into nosebleed territory the stock is.

Don't know what to tell you. Clearly, Vanguard, JP Morgan, and Black Rock are not concerned with Tesla's P/E ratio. Likely because they have come around to the fact that Tesla is not a car company, so judging investment worthiness off a PE ratio driven by car sales and skewed by reinvestment into new products is not the correct metric for this stock. They see the TAMs of FSD, robot taxis, semi truck, Tesla energy, AI, and humanoid robotics. They have access to Tesla that retail does not and they are clearly satisfied that Tesla is making progress and/or the leader in one of more of these growth ventures. What's really interesting is that JP Morgan has been talking down Tesla the company (scaring off retail investors), at the same time they've been gobbling up shares. Pretty evident they see the stock price increasing in the not too distant future or they would wait to buy down the road.

A simpler explanation:  all 3 own index funds.  Two of them are the largest index funds in the world.

Do some more digging, and maybe I would believe it wasn't that simple.

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3082 on: May 19, 2025, 12:41:35 PM »
Business Insider just did a head-to-head test of FSD (13.2.8) vs. Waymo in San Francisco, using a round trip.  At the halfway point, the judgement was neck-and-neck.  On the return trip, however, the Tesla ran a red light.

Tesla is dooooomed!!

I made no such judgement.

As an automotive engineer, I am appalled at the idea that such defects exist, one month from supposed launch.  And, I laugh at the ineptitude of such defects existing in the city that they have the most experience and most data in.  If it could happen in San Fran, it could definitely happen more often elsewhere.

dragoncar

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3083 on: May 19, 2025, 01:16:10 PM »
Tesla is doomed

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3084 on: May 19, 2025, 01:34:01 PM »
Business Insider just did a head-to-head test of FSD (13.2.8) vs. Waymo in San Francisco, using a round trip.  At the halfway point, the judgement was neck-and-neck.  On the return trip, however, the Tesla ran a red light.

Tesla is dooooomed!!

I made no such judgement.

As an automotive engineer, I am appalled at the idea that such defects exist, one month from supposed launch.  And, I laugh at the ineptitude of such defects existing in the city that they have the most experience and most data in.  If it could happen in San Fran, it could definitely happen more often elsewhere.

Relax. It was a tongue-in-cheek response based on previous posts up thread.

Business Insider has a notorious anti-Tesla bias to their coverage. Case-in-point with this article. The unscientific "test" was a to be a one-way drive from point A to point B, which both vehicles accomplished without incident. The authors then decided to extend the test for the return trip for no explained reason.

The Tesla vehicle did not blow through a red light. According to the authors account, the Tesla came to a full stop at an irregular intersection that was red, but then proceeded through the intersection and the red-light when no cross traffic was detected. The Tesla did not fail to see the red-light and no lives were put at risk. If the Tesla did in fact proceed after "looking" that is still a significant issue, but context matters.

As an engineer, you should be appalled that the Waymo vehicle was declared the "winner" despite not being subjected to the same intersection. It took a different route back. You should also probably question why there is no video of the test drives and the alleged red light incident? That's a huge red flag. Especially since Tesla's FSD can be overridden by the driver. So, a driver can push a car forward through a red light or stop sign with FSD engaged by pressing the accelerator.

Lastly. I have driven FSD for two separate months, several hours, and hundreds of miles using prior versions of FSD. My vehicle never made a safety critical mistake like going through a stop sign or red light. I place way more value on my personal experience and the dozens of unedited FSD videos available on line, over one second-hand account from a biased source, using flawed test parameters, inadequate sample size, and offering no video. It appears to me that they extended the "test" to get the desired result and offer no visual confirmation of their account even though they could have easily recorded the entire test drive and posted it for all to see. They are journalist right? Perhaps video evidence would have opened them up to a defamation lawsuit? Inept or corrupt, take your pick I guess.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2025, 01:56:46 PM by ColoradoTribe »

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3085 on: May 19, 2025, 01:53:46 PM »
https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/jp-morgan-raises-position-in-tesla-to-a-new-record-high/

https://eletric-vehicles.com/tesla/blackrock-boosts-tesla-stake-for-23rd-straight-quarter-reaches-record-206m-shares/

https://x.com/TheSonOfWalkley/status/1923794687048954164

Apparently institutional buyers have not been keeping up with this thread to learn that Tesla is in fact doomed (again).

In the past dozens of posts, yours is the only one using the word "doomed".  You're creating a fake argument to shoot down.

Yes!  My point has been that a simple pullback to, say, Nvidia's P/E would be a 75% drop from here.

It's not exactly that Nvidia is hated, or that that would put TSLA at a below-market multiple, or something.

It's how far into nosebleed territory the stock is.

Don't know what to tell you. Clearly, Vanguard, JP Morgan, and Black Rock are not concerned with Tesla's P/E ratio. Likely because they have come around to the fact that Tesla is not a car company, so judging investment worthiness off a PE ratio driven by car sales and skewed by reinvestment into new products is not the correct metric for this stock. They see the TAMs of FSD, robot taxis, semi truck, Tesla energy, AI, and humanoid robotics. They have access to Tesla that retail does not and they are clearly satisfied that Tesla is making progress and/or the leader in one of more of these growth ventures. What's really interesting is that JP Morgan has been talking down Tesla the company (scaring off retail investors), at the same time they've been gobbling up shares. Pretty evident they see the stock price increasing in the not too distant future or they would wait to buy down the road.

A simpler explanation:  all 3 own index funds.  Two of them are the largest index funds in the world.

Do some more digging, and maybe I would believe it wasn't that simple.

Index fund holdings are generally weighted by market cap with the intent of mirroring the performance of benchmarks like the S&P 500. Tesla stock price dropped in Q1 from $346/share to $293/share, which means in order to maintain the proper weighting of TSLA in their funds, these institutions would have been selling off Tesla shares when rebalancing, not buying.

Next time you do your own homework. The answers are out there.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2025, 01:57:35 PM by ColoradoTribe »

maizefolk

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3086 on: May 19, 2025, 02:15:09 PM »
Index fund holdings are generally weighted by market cap with the intent of mirroring the performance of benchmarks like the S&P 500. Tesla stock price dropped in Q1 from $346/share to $293/share, which means in order to maintain the proper weighting of TSLA in their funds, these institutions would have been selling off Tesla shares when rebalancing, not buying.

Next time you do your own homework. The answers are out there.

The great thing about market cap weighting is that you never have to buy or sell shares to maintain balance in the index.

Imagine an index with exactly two companies: LittlesharesCorp ($100/share $2T market cap) and BigsharesInc ($500 share, $2T market cap).

I invest $5,000 in a market cap weighted fund, which means the fund buys 25 shares of LittlesharesCorp ($2,500 value) and 5 shares of BigsharesInc ($2,500 value), which is a 50/50 split of value, what I want for a market cap fund.

Then BigsharesInc experiences an 80% price drop. Now its shares are worth $100 share and its market cap is only $400B. Time to rebalance, right?

To maintain market cap weighting, I should have 2/2.4 = 83% of my investment in LittlesharesCorp and 0.4/2.4 =17% of my investment in BigSharesInc. My five shares of BigSharesInc are worth $500 (5 shares * $100/share), my 25 shares of LittlesharesCorp are worth $2500 (25 shares * 100/share) and my total portfolio is worth $3,000 ($2,500+$500).

That means my investments are 17% in BigSharesInc ($500/$3000) and 83% in LittlesharesCorp ($2500/$3000), exactly mirroring the market cap ratio and I don't need to buy or sell anything.

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3087 on: May 19, 2025, 02:40:30 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq0ZESxZGNo

Great overview of a number of relevant Tesla topics.

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3088 on: May 19, 2025, 02:52:45 PM »
Index fund holdings are generally weighted by market cap with the intent of mirroring the performance of benchmarks like the S&P 500. Tesla stock price dropped in Q1 from $346/share to $293/share, which means in order to maintain the proper weighting of TSLA in their funds, these institutions would have been selling off Tesla shares when rebalancing, not buying.

Next time you do your own homework. The answers are out there.

The great thing about market cap weighting is that you never have to buy or sell shares to maintain balance in the index.

Imagine an index with exactly two companies: LittlesharesCorp ($100/share $2T market cap) and BigsharesInc ($500 share, $2T market cap).

I invest $5,000 in a market cap weighted fund, which means the fund buys 25 shares of LittlesharesCorp ($2,500 value) and 5 shares of BigsharesInc ($2,500 value), which is a 50/50 split of value, what I want for a market cap fund.

Then BigsharesInc experiences an 80% price drop. Now its shares are worth $100 share and its market cap is only $400B. Time to rebalance, right?

To maintain market cap weighting, I should have 2/2.4 = 83% of my investment in LittlesharesCorp and 0.4/2.4 =17% of my investment in BigSharesInc. My five shares of BigSharesInc are worth $500 (5 shares * $100/share), my 25 shares of LittlesharesCorp are worth $2500 (25 shares * 100/share) and my total portfolio is worth $3,000 ($2,500+$500).

That means my investments are 17% in BigSharesInc ($500/$3000) and 83% in LittlesharesCorp ($2500/$3000), exactly mirroring the market cap ratio and I don't need to buy or sell anything.

Since there are no funds comprised of two stocks I fail to see the relevancy of this theoretical. Funds are comprised of dozens of stocks and when some move up, some move down and some stay the same it does inevitably require rebalancing for the funds to mirror their benchmarks.

But getting this back on topic, rebalancing (or even an absence of a need to rebalance) would not explain why institutions were buying Tesla shares hand over fist in Q1, despite all the doom and gloom over auto sales. Are Vanguard, Black Rock, and JP Morgan secretly comprised of koolaide drinkers and fan bois? Some one needs to inform them of the PE ratio ASAP.

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3089 on: May 19, 2025, 03:16:34 PM »
Business Insider just did a head-to-head test of FSD (13.2.8) vs. Waymo in San Francisco, using a round trip.  At the halfway point, the judgement was neck-and-neck.  On the return trip, however, the Tesla ran a red light.

Tesla is dooooomed!!

I made no such judgement.

As an automotive engineer, I am appalled at the idea that such defects exist, one month from supposed launch.  And, I laugh at the ineptitude of such defects existing in the city that they have the most experience and most data in.  If it could happen in San Fran, it could definitely happen more often elsewhere.

Relax. It was a tongue-in-cheek response based on previous posts up thread.

Business Insider has a notorious anti-Tesla bias to their coverage. Case-in-point with this article. The unscientific "test" was a to be a one-way drive from point A to point B, which both vehicles accomplished without incident. The authors then decided to extend the test for the return trip for no explained reason.

The Tesla vehicle did not blow through a red light. According to the authors account, the Tesla came to a full stop at an irregular intersection that was red, but then proceeded through the intersection and the red-light when no cross traffic was detected. The Tesla did not fail to see the red-light and no lives were put at risk. If the Tesla did in fact proceed after "looking" that is still a significant issue, but context matters.

As an engineer, you should be appalled that the Waymo vehicle was declared the "winner" despite not being subjected to the same intersection. It took a different route back. You should also probably question why there is no video of the test drives and the alleged red light incident? That's a huge red flag. Especially since Tesla's FSD can be overridden by the driver. So, a driver can push a car forward through a red light or stop sign with FSD engaged by pressing the accelerator.

Lastly. I have driven FSD for two separate months, several hours, and hundreds of miles using prior versions of FSD. My vehicle never made a safety critical mistake like going through a stop sign or red light. I place way more value on my personal experience and the dozens of unedited FSD videos available on line, over one second-hand account from a biased source, using flawed test parameters, inadequate sample size, and offering no video. It appears to me that they extended the "test" to get the desired result and offer no visual confirmation of their account even though they could have easily recorded the entire test drive and posted it for all to see. They are journalist right? Perhaps video evidence would have opened them up to a defamation lawsuit? Inept or corrupt, take your pick I guess.

You disparage the methodology of others, and suggest we substitute your own single example?  Do you always drive with scientific rigor?  I admit these are often journalists or anecdotal reports,  but your retort makes no sense.

I never said the Tesla blew through a red light.  It is as you describe: it stopped, and then proceeded through a solid red light.  This is somehow OK because it didn't detect any other traffic?  Would a police officer at the intersection approve of that behavior?  How about a driver's license examiner?

The intersection where this happened is a tricky one--a 5-way.  Yes, it's unusual.  No, it's not unique.  And yes, as an engineer, I would much rather have an autonomous vehicle avoid an intersection it can't properly process than break the law attempting it.

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3090 on: May 19, 2025, 04:05:09 PM »
Business Insider just did a head-to-head test of FSD (13.2.8) vs. Waymo in San Francisco, using a round trip.  At the halfway point, the judgement was neck-and-neck.  On the return trip, however, the Tesla ran a red light.

Tesla is dooooomed!!

I made no such judgement.

As an automotive engineer, I am appalled at the idea that such defects exist, one month from supposed launch.  And, I laugh at the ineptitude of such defects existing in the city that they have the most experience and most data in.  If it could happen in San Fran, it could definitely happen more often elsewhere.

Relax. It was a tongue-in-cheek response based on previous posts up thread.

Business Insider has a notorious anti-Tesla bias to their coverage. Case-in-point with this article. The unscientific "test" was a to be a one-way drive from point A to point B, which both vehicles accomplished without incident. The authors then decided to extend the test for the return trip for no explained reason.

The Tesla vehicle did not blow through a red light. According to the authors account, the Tesla came to a full stop at an irregular intersection that was red, but then proceeded through the intersection and the red-light when no cross traffic was detected. The Tesla did not fail to see the red-light and no lives were put at risk. If the Tesla did in fact proceed after "looking" that is still a significant issue, but context matters.

As an engineer, you should be appalled that the Waymo vehicle was declared the "winner" despite not being subjected to the same intersection. It took a different route back. You should also probably question why there is no video of the test drives and the alleged red light incident? That's a huge red flag. Especially since Tesla's FSD can be overridden by the driver. So, a driver can push a car forward through a red light or stop sign with FSD engaged by pressing the accelerator.

Lastly. I have driven FSD for two separate months, several hours, and hundreds of miles using prior versions of FSD. My vehicle never made a safety critical mistake like going through a stop sign or red light. I place way more value on my personal experience and the dozens of unedited FSD videos available on line, over one second-hand account from a biased source, using flawed test parameters, inadequate sample size, and offering no video. It appears to me that they extended the "test" to get the desired result and offer no visual confirmation of their account even though they could have easily recorded the entire test drive and posted it for all to see. They are journalist right? Perhaps video evidence would have opened them up to a defamation lawsuit? Inept or corrupt, take your pick I guess.

You disparage the methodology of others, and suggest we substitute your own single example?  Do you always drive with scientific rigor?  I admit these are often journalists or anecdotal reports,  but your retort makes no sense.

I never said the Tesla blew through a red light.  It is as you describe: it stopped, and then proceeded through a solid red light.  This is somehow OK because it didn't detect any other traffic?  Would a police officer at the intersection approve of that behavior?  How about a driver's license examiner?

The intersection where this happened is a tricky one--a 5-way.  Yes, it's unusual.  No, it's not unique.  And yes, as an engineer, I would much rather have an autonomous vehicle avoid an intersection it can't properly process than break the law attempting it.

Enough with the straw man. I never said it was okay for the Tesla to proceed through a red light (IF it happened). In fact, I said the opposite. I stated, if true, it was a "significant issue".

What's so hard to understand? The BI "test" was not scientific at all. It consisted of driving seven miles on one day then writing an article with a simple first hand account, no data, no analytics and most importantly, no video shared. I follow several accounts of FSD testers that do drive the same route every time a new version is released to check for situational improvements under the same conditions. Additionally, my real life, first hand experience is hundreds of miles of driving (not 7 miles) using the same FSD technology over a period of two months and under varying road and climate conditions, day and night, city, country, and highway. Are your really suggesting I should weight a single 7-mile amateur test drive (with no data or analytics attached) more than my own first-hand experience? And yes, when I "test" FSD as an early adopter I am being very critical and analytical as that is my nature as a scientist and critical investment research.

These exchanges, while mildly entertaining, are not providing value. Time for another break from this board I think.

PhilB

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3091 on: May 19, 2025, 04:06:12 PM »
Index fund holdings are generally weighted by market cap with the intent of mirroring the performance of benchmarks like the S&P 500. Tesla stock price dropped in Q1 from $346/share to $293/share, which means in order to maintain the proper weighting of TSLA in their funds, these institutions would have been selling off Tesla shares when rebalancing, not buying.

Next time you do your own homework. The answers are out there.

The great thing about market cap weighting is that you never have to buy or sell shares to maintain balance in the index.

Imagine an index with exactly two companies: LittlesharesCorp ($100/share $2T market cap) and BigsharesInc ($500 share, $2T market cap).

I invest $5,000 in a market cap weighted fund, which means the fund buys 25 shares of LittlesharesCorp ($2,500 value) and 5 shares of BigsharesInc ($2,500 value), which is a 50/50 split of value, what I want for a market cap fund.

Then BigsharesInc experiences an 80% price drop. Now its shares are worth $100 share and its market cap is only $400B. Time to rebalance, right?

To maintain market cap weighting, I should have 2/2.4 = 83% of my investment in LittlesharesCorp and 0.4/2.4 =17% of my investment in BigSharesInc. My five shares of BigSharesInc are worth $500 (5 shares * $100/share), my 25 shares of LittlesharesCorp are worth $2500 (25 shares * 100/share) and my total portfolio is worth $3,000 ($2,500+$500).

That means my investments are 17% in BigSharesInc ($500/$3000) and 83% in LittlesharesCorp ($2500/$3000), exactly mirroring the market cap ratio and I don't need to buy or sell anything.

Since there are no funds comprised of two stocks I fail to see the relevancy of this theoretical. Funds are comprised of dozens of stocks and when some move up, some move down and some stay the same it does inevitably require rebalancing for the funds to mirror their benchmarks.

But getting this back on topic, rebalancing (or even an absence of a need to rebalance) would not explain why institutions were buying Tesla shares hand over fist in Q1, despite all the doom and gloom over auto sales. Are Vanguard, Black Rock, and JP Morgan secretly comprised of koolaide drinkers and fan bois? Some one needs to inform them of the PE ratio ASAP.

Maizefolk was only using a two-share index to make it easier for you to follow.  By definition a whole index fund never has to rebalance unless a share drops out of / is added to the index.  They only buy and sell shares when cash flows in or out of the fund via contributions, dividends, withdrawals, etc.  With those cash flows they buy and sell all shares at once in proportion to the companies market cap.  If investors are still putting more into the fund than they are drawing out, then the fund will be buying Tesla in exactly the same way as it buys every other company.  They don't make any value judgement about whether the stock is worth its price.

bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3092 on: May 19, 2025, 06:42:34 PM »
Maizefolk was only using a two-share index to make it easier for you to follow.  By definition a whole index fund never has to rebalance unless a share drops out of / is added to the index.  They only buy and sell shares when cash flows in or out of the fund via contributions, dividends, withdrawals, etc.  With those cash flows they buy and sell all shares at once in proportion to the companies market cap.  If investors are still putting more into the fund than they are drawing out, then the fund will be buying Tesla in exactly the same way as it buys every other company.  They don't make any value judgement about whether the stock is worth its price.

https://etfgi.com/news/press-releases/2025/04/etfgi-reports-net-inflows-etfs-industry-united-states-q1-are-record

"Q1 net inflows of $298.00 Bn are the highest on record [for ETFs]"

So, yeah, Vanguard and Blackrock would be buying TSLA (and NVDA and AAPL and COST...)

Vanguard has some but not a lot of non-index ETFs/funds.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3093 on: May 24, 2025, 12:07:34 AM »
This page lists Tesla accidents.  It also specifically shows fatal accidents where Tesla AutoPilot was engaged.
https://www.tesladeaths.com/

2024 Dec :  2 separate fatal accidents
2024 Sept : 2 separate fatal accidents
2024 Aug : 1 fatal accident
2024 July : 1 fatal accident
2024 April : 1 fatal accident

Waymo is only self-driving.  A page listing Waymo accidents showed zero fatalities - unless you count a "stationary, unoccupied Waymo car".  In that situation, a black Tesla going almost 100 miles/hour slammed into other cars at a stop light (not full self-driving, and in 2025, so not listed above).
https://www.damfirm.com/waymo-accident-statistics.html

Note this isn't a fair comparison because of the number of Tesla EVs (1 or 2 million) in the U.S., versus less than 1,000 Waymo cars in select cities.  That said, Waymos are running as a taxi service, so constantly driving.  Tesla EVs are one driver, who may or may not be using AutoPilot.

Earlier this year, BYD (of China) announced new EV charging that is much faster than Tesla's.  Now we wait to see if Tesla innovates next, or BYD does.  The risk is that Tesla is behind on both batteries and self-driving, which used to be the main selling points.  Along with reputation damage from the Tesla CEO's politics, it seems like Tesla has a lot of work to do - just to catch up.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3094 on: May 24, 2025, 10:10:30 PM »
Earlier this year, BYD (of China) announced new EV charging that is much faster than Tesla's.  Now we wait to see if Tesla innovates next, or BYD does.  The risk is that Tesla is behind on both batteries and self-driving, which used to be the main selling points.  Along with reputation damage from the Tesla CEO's politics, it seems like Tesla has a lot of work to do - just to catch up.
I suspect this is the case. A large part of the tariffs and Musk's involvement in the administration has been about protecting Tesla from superior foreign competition.

Had the U.S. not protected Tesla's home market, this would have happened here:
China's BYD outsells Tesla in Europe for first time, report says

If Tesla's declining sales in China are any indication, Chinese EVs are out-competing Teslas anywhere they are allowed to compete.

Meanwhile, we in the U.S. are all stuck with old technology and a slower innovation cycle. With the US market in its pocket, Tesla does not have to give us any better. But they're about to lose their international markets.

And if Tesla is behind on the basics of autonomous EVs, how is the whole robotaxi thing supposed to work?

Telecaster

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3095 on: May 24, 2025, 11:18:22 PM »
And if Tesla is behind on the basics of autonomous EVs, how is the whole robotaxi thing supposed to work?

They are punting.  Or at least pausing while they figure out what to do.  I say that because Tesla's position--recently reiterated by Musk just last month--is that Waymo's approach of geofencing is a mistake because it is hard to scale.  True AV would scale to the whole world instantly.   So while Waymo is fiddling around adding one city at a time, Tesla is working on adding the whole world.   

But Telsa's Austin rollout will be geofenced with a remote safety operator, same as Waymo.   So why is Tesla fiddling around adding one city at a time?  Probably because they don't think the universal solution will be happening in a reasonable time frame, and they need to accept second best in the interim. 

Another datapoint: Permitting.  Ride hailing is regulated in every state, and sometimes on the municipal level.  Tesla has a ride hailing permit in Texas, and Texas does not require special riding hailing AV permits.   So one down, 49 to go.  But Tesla has not applied for ride hailing permits in any other jurisdiction that I'm aware of.  As Uber and Lyft showed, that process can take years.   And likely would take longer in this case because of the unproven technology. 

So why hasn't Tesla started the AV ride hailing permit process?   The most likely answer is their technology isn't ready and they don't know when it is going to be ready.  So they are punting and trying to catch up with Waymo. 

Happy to admit if that is wrong, but that seems to be the most likely explanation. 

reeshau

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3096 on: May 25, 2025, 06:22:11 AM »
Tesla did apply in California, which was approved in March.

Also, their Austin taxis will be Model Y's, since the robotaxi, with no steering wheel, can't have a safety driver.  It would be an interesting paradox to see robotaxi production start, sinking all that capital, but without a system ready to utilize them.  Would even Elon have that much hubris?

neo von retorch

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3097 on: May 25, 2025, 06:48:33 AM »
...robotaxi, with no steering wheel...

As someone with zero expertise in building cars in assembly lines -- but knowing that steering, acceleration, and brakes are "by wire", I have to wonder what the expense would have been to make the Cybercab a modular vehicle -- that is, remove panels up front to add in steering wheel, tablet UX, acceleration and brake pedals. Maybe slide a seat forward if need be for it to be in "driver" position. Are there other costs I'm missing, e.g. mirrors, signals, etc.? Are those things still legally required to exist on a car even if it's "driverless", or since that's still "kinda new" the law doesn't specify / gray area?

Would the cost of that exceed the point where that would make sense as a "low cost" vehicle?

bacchi

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3098 on: May 25, 2025, 08:29:10 AM »
Tesla did apply in California, which was approved in March.

They did. California has several levels. Tesla is approved for employees only with a driver.

As of March, they have not applied for the next permit in the sequence (and maybe they can't until they demonstrate safety under the previous step).

Quote
Also, their Austin taxis will be Model Y's, since the robotaxi, with no steering wheel, can't have a safety driver.  It would be an interesting paradox to see robotaxi production start, sinking all that capital, but without a system ready to utilize them.  Would even Elon have that much hubris?

That's rhetorical, right?

Retire-Canada

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #3099 on: May 25, 2025, 08:53:32 AM »
Also, their Austin taxis will be Model Y's, since the robotaxi, with no steering wheel, can't have a safety driver.

They could use all those unsold CyberTrucks as "Robotaxis". They are easy to spot and work great for carrying two people and a suitcase.