Author Topic: Is Tesla a good investment?  (Read 383577 times)

Scandium

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1300 on: December 02, 2022, 11:36:55 AM »

The Aztec flopped compared to projected sales. Projected sales had already accounted for brand perception. This is also clear when compared to the Buick Rondesvous, which is a re-skinned Aztec that sold twice as many per year for twice as long. Mainly because it didn't look weird. I can't believe that I have to point this out as it's basically a meme at this point, but:

https://carsalesbase.com/us-buick-rendezvous/

https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/buick-rendezvous-was-better-looking-successful-aztek-281474979970896

Per that article, that's not a reskin; the Buick has ditched the sloped rear, so more cargo space in same footprint (and probably ~mpg).  And has a 3rd row seat! That's a massive functional difference! Car-nerds love to shit on anything that's not sufficiently "broh kewl!" and penis-extending enough, so I don't trust their opinions on anything.

That said; yes I do recognize that a (frighteningly) large part of the public are emotion-driven morons who will pay for unnecessary bling over and over. That's kind of the basis for this website..
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 12:48:29 PM by Scandium »

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1301 on: December 02, 2022, 12:09:50 PM »
Tesla Semi looks like a GREAT product, but I was disappointed in the lack of information from the presentation. What's the actual price now? Didn't confirm production targets for 2023. When can others begin placing deposits for it again? What about autopilot or platooning?

Anyway, the other things they said were great:
500 mile range maxed out at 82,000 lbs
Cold brakes on declines because of regen
1 MW+ Charging infrastructure with new cable. Once V4 infrastructure is built out, long haul will be easy to achieve for the motor, but the cab is not designed for long haul. They will need a new cab set up for long haul when V4 is built out.
1,000 Volt architecture
>2 kwh per mile. So if a 1 Mwh pack, $120,000 for just that pack cost?
Cybertruck can use V4 and will also have the 1,000 volt architecture. Could assume 250 mile real range while hauling with a Cybertruck (500 mile standalone). 1 MW charger would get it to 80% in minutes.
Handed them over to Customers

The $40k IRA credit for EV semi trucks will be a big incentive in the new few years as the V4 infrastructure builds out.

...Also, good for rental companies like Penske if they buy them for rentals down the road. Two things happened to me renting a big diesel truck to move equipment when my old employer purchased a location.
A. The engine wasn't charged overnight and I had to sit there for an hour while it warmed up. Engine couldn't start in the cold.
B. Dummies like me won't fill the coolant tank with diesel fuel so Penske techs won't have come drain and refill the system. Just a supercharger cable.

That is pretty hilarious about the coolant!

I'm kind of excited to see when in the quarterly earnings calls in 2023 the tailwinds pick up. Seems that Semi and cybertruck have been expenses with no income for the past few/many years, and those expenses will finally start to pay off and not drag the earnings on the cars. Seems likely that there would be a significant change in earnings as a result. I can't think that the renewed focus on developing the 25k car would be nearly as resource intensive as the dual development of the semi and cyber truck lines have been.

So hopefully they get to that 25k car all the quicker!

TomTX

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1302 on: December 02, 2022, 01:01:35 PM »
>2 kwh per mile. So if a 1 Mwh pack, $120,000 for just that pack cost?
1.7 kWh/mile.

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1303 on: December 02, 2022, 01:12:20 PM »
>2 kwh per mile. So if a 1 Mwh pack, $120,000 for just that pack cost?
1.7 kWh/mile.

Whoops, <2. How did you get 1.7? They didn’t say.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1304 on: December 02, 2022, 01:19:34 PM »
The question is whether Tesla will continue to grow the top line quickly while simultaneously maintaining 8X industry margins in a near future when customers have many possible choices, such as a $34k Chevy Equinox BEV or Hyundai Kona BEV. An economist might say these new market entrants will break the monopolist's pricing power and force margins toward equilibrium.

What signs would we expect to see if Tesla's monopoly power was being eroded and if their margins are on he way down toward industry norms?

-price cuts
-production of lower-end models
-advertising

Suddenly, we're seeing price cuts: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/tesla-just-lowered-prices-for-model-3-and-model-y-but-only-if-you-buy-this-month/ar-AA14PAtz

TomTX

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1305 on: December 02, 2022, 01:30:28 PM »
>2 kwh per mile. So if a 1 Mwh pack, $120,000 for just that pack cost?
1.7 kWh/mile.

Whoops, <2. How did you get 1.7? They didn’t say.
The same way you get most important Tesla information - an offhanded tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1598631136980131843

TomTX

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1306 on: December 02, 2022, 01:35:42 PM »
The question is whether Tesla will continue to grow the top line quickly while simultaneously maintaining 8X industry margins in a near future when customers have many possible choices, such as a $34k Chevy Equinox BEV or Hyundai Kona BEV. An economist might say these new market entrants will break the monopolist's pricing power and force margins toward equilibrium.

What signs would we expect to see if Tesla's monopoly power was being eroded and if their margins are on he way down toward industry norms?

-price cuts
-production of lower-end models
-advertising

Suddenly, we're seeing price cuts: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/tesla-just-lowered-prices-for-model-3-and-model-y-but-only-if-you-buy-this-month/ar-AA14PAtz

It's the last month before a $7,500 tax credit kicks in, and it appears to be solely a cut in price for inventory cars - which they always try to clear at the end of a quarter one way or another.  A custom ordered Model 3 for delivery in December is still listed as starting around $47k.

I wouldn't read too much into it unless we see meaningful cuts in 1Q.

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1307 on: December 02, 2022, 02:44:53 PM »
>2 kwh per mile. So if a 1 Mwh pack, $120,000 for just that pack cost?
1.7 kWh/mile.

Whoops, <2. How did you get 1.7? They didn’t say.
The same way you get most important Tesla information - an offhanded tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1598631136980131843

Haha, touche. At 1.7, seems like it's ~900kwh pack.

Yeah, the $3250 discount for inventory is clearly to offset demand lag for the $7500 tax credit. I agree with the general signs to look out for if cost declines also stopped, but I don't think this one qualifies because a major tax legislation in its space starts Jan 1. Also, still don't agree about Monopoly power.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 02:52:48 PM by lemonlyman »

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1308 on: December 02, 2022, 03:00:17 PM »
>2 kwh per mile. So if a 1 Mwh pack, $120,000 for just that pack cost?
1.7 kWh/mile.

Whoops, <2. How did you get 1.7? They didn’t say.
The same way you get most important Tesla information - an offhanded tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1598631136980131843

Haha, touche.

Yeah, the $3250 discount for inventory is clearly to offset demand lag for the $7500 tax credit. I agree with the general signs, but I don't think this one qualifies because a major tax legislation in its space starts Jan 1.

Yea, there's a lot going on with this one.  A lot of people are trying to push deliveries into next year for the tax credit.  Others are likely cancelling because of the ongoing Elon shit-show.  There's also others that cancel just because they've been waiting so long and found something else.  Interest rates are impacting others.  I don't think we'll be able to unpack what the cancellation impact is until early next year. 

I suspect (but have no evidence) Tesla's been prioritizing fleet deliveries the last few months and are just getting around to some of their older retail orders from last spring.

If I were to place a bet, I'll say that their overall demand situation will be fine in the US for 2023, with some weirdness in Q4 2022 and maybe Q1.  But we might finally see some price cuts if demand starts to soften.  But this is a big difference from having unsold inventory. 

China demand is what I'd watch.  The Chinese economy is decelerating rapidly, and in the absence of data, negative anecdotes seem to be outpacing positive ones by a wide margin. 


mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1309 on: December 02, 2022, 04:36:04 PM »
>2 kwh per mile. So if a 1 Mwh pack, $120,000 for just that pack cost?
1.7 kWh/mile.

Whoops, <2. How did you get 1.7? They didn’t say.
The same way you get most important Tesla information - an offhanded tweet.

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1598631136980131843

Haha, touche. At 1.7, seems like it's ~900kwh pack.

Yeah, the $3250 discount for inventory is clearly to offset demand lag for the $7500 tax credit. I agree with the general signs to look out for if cost declines also stopped, but I don't think this one qualifies because a major tax legislation in its space starts Jan 1. Also, still don't agree about Monopoly power.

this is sounding pretty good, I nearly just bought one! lol....fiddling as rome burns....need to finish my work week and maybe will pull the trigger tomorrow....save my taxes for a solar system in 2023......

Maybe!

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1310 on: December 02, 2022, 07:10:13 PM »
The question is whether Tesla will continue to grow the top line quickly while simultaneously maintaining 8X industry margins in a near future when customers have many possible choices, such as a $34k Chevy Equinox BEV or Hyundai Kona BEV. An economist might say these new market entrants will break the monopolist's pricing power and force margins toward equilibrium.

What signs would we expect to see if Tesla's monopoly power was being eroded and if their margins are on he way down toward industry norms?

-price cuts
-production of lower-end models
-advertising

Suddenly, we're seeing price cuts: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/tesla-just-lowered-prices-for-model-3-and-model-y-but-only-if-you-buy-this-month/ar-AA14PAtz

It's the last month before a $7,500 tax credit kicks in, and it appears to be solely a cut in price for inventory cars - which they always try to clear at the end of a quarter one way or another.  A custom ordered Model 3 for delivery in December is still listed as starting around $47k.

I wouldn't read too much into it unless we see meaningful cuts in 1Q.

So ChpBstrd’s new proof of demand issues is Tesla selling cars at a small discount (~5%) for one month, in one country and just before a $7,500 tax credit returns for Tesla vehicles. The wall is pretty slippery, but by all means keep throwing, something might stick eventually.

Curious, what does your crystal ball say a $7,500 discount (tax credit) from current pricing will do for Tesla demand going forward?

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1311 on: December 03, 2022, 06:22:10 AM »
...Also, good for rental companies like Penske if they buy them for rentals down the road. Two things happened to me renting a big diesel truck to move equipment when my old employer purchased a location.
A. The engine wasn't charged overnight and I had to sit there for an hour while it warmed up. Engine couldn't start in the cold.
B. Dummies like me won't fill the coolant tank with diesel fuel so Penske techs won't have come drain and refill the system. Just a supercharger cable.

Like so many commercial fleets, Penske has been doing pilot testing programs with other EV trucks for awhile now:

https://www.pensketruckleasing.com/full-service-leasing/leasing-services/electric-fleets/
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 07:10:24 AM by Paper Chaser »

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1312 on: December 03, 2022, 06:56:11 AM »

The Aztec flopped compared to projected sales. Projected sales had already accounted for brand perception. This is also clear when compared to the Buick Rondesvous, which is a re-skinned Aztec that sold twice as many per year for twice as long. Mainly because it didn't look weird. I can't believe that I have to point this out as it's basically a meme at this point, but:

https://carsalesbase.com/us-buick-rendezvous/

https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/buick-rendezvous-was-better-looking-successful-aztek-281474979970896

Per that article, that's not a reskin; the Buick has ditched the sloped rear, so more cargo space in same footprint (and probably ~mpg).  And has a 3rd row seat! That's a massive functional difference! Car-nerds love to shit on anything that's not sufficiently "broh kewl!" and penis-extending enough, so I don't trust their opinions on anything.

That said; yes I do recognize that a (frighteningly) large part of the public are emotion-driven morons who will pay for unnecessary bling over and over. That's kind of the basis for this website..

The most aerodynamically efficient shape is basically a raindrop, with a rounded leading edge tapering to a point. That's why so many modern vehicles are shaped with sloping rears (including Teslas). The Aztec's sloped rear resulted in improved aerodynamics and 1mpg better fuel economy on the highway compared to the Rendezvous.

I'd say that the biggest reason for Tesla's sales success is that they were the first to make EVs aspirational. They look better than previous EVs. They perform better than EVs had up to that point. They had more range than EVs had up to that point.

Reality is that people are more likely to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on personal transport if they like something about the appearance or how it makes them look to others. They're more than just tools for transport.

And on the theme of the Semi, that potential customer is almost the complete opposite of the lizard brained personal vehicle buyer. Fleets ONLY care about the utility and financial viability of the trucks they run. 0-60 times, luxury features, etc have no value to the people buying them, so they'll need to start sharing more details like the actual weight of the truck, and the pricing.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 07:14:55 AM by Paper Chaser »

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1313 on: December 03, 2022, 09:12:47 AM »

The Aztec flopped compared to projected sales. Projected sales had already accounted for brand perception. This is also clear when compared to the Buick Rondesvous, which is a re-skinned Aztec that sold twice as many per year for twice as long. Mainly because it didn't look weird. I can't believe that I have to point this out as it's basically a meme at this point, but:

https://carsalesbase.com/us-buick-rendezvous/

https://www.autotrader.com/car-news/buick-rendezvous-was-better-looking-successful-aztek-281474979970896

Per that article, that's not a reskin; the Buick has ditched the sloped rear, so more cargo space in same footprint (and probably ~mpg).  And has a 3rd row seat! That's a massive functional difference! Car-nerds love to shit on anything that's not sufficiently "broh kewl!" and penis-extending enough, so I don't trust their opinions on anything.

That said; yes I do recognize that a (frighteningly) large part of the public are emotion-driven morons who will pay for unnecessary bling over and over. That's kind of the basis for this website..

The most aerodynamically efficient shape is basically a raindrop, with a rounded leading edge tapering to a point. That's why so many modern vehicles are shaped with sloping rears (including Teslas). The Aztec's sloped rear resulted in improved aerodynamics and 1mpg better fuel economy on the highway compared to the Rendezvous.

I'd say that the biggest reason for Tesla's sales success is that they were the first to make EVs aspirational. They look better than previous EVs. They perform better than EVs had up to that point. They had more range than EVs had up to that point.

Reality is that people are more likely to spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on personal transport if they like something about the appearance or how it makes them look to others. They're more than just tools for transport.

And on the theme of the Semi, that potential customer is almost the complete opposite of the lizard brained personal vehicle buyer. Fleets ONLY care about the utility and financial viability of the trucks they run. 0-60 times, luxury features, etc have no value to the people buying them, so they'll need to start sharing more details like the actual weight of the truck, and the pricing.

Yeah, I’ve seen estimates of over $500,000 in just energy costs over the million mile lifespan.
https://youtu.be/Uv44W7xa4IU
Before other maintenance. (Semi trucks burn through brakes.) The 2019 price was on par with diesel trucks for the most part, but it has to be much more expensive now. The $40k tax credit will offset some. Nikola Insider estimates of 27,000 lbs  for the truck and 2,000 lighter than the Nikola Tre.

I haven’t seen any other EV class 8 models with over 300 mile range and those advertise charging in 90 minutes. With Tesla doing 500 miles and 400 miles charged in 30 minutes, it’s Utility on day trips looks far superior than Freightliner and Nikola.

Tesla invented another charging standard for this. Those types of things are the competitive advantage not looks or monopoly or whatever.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 09:34:57 AM by lemonlyman »

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1314 on: December 03, 2022, 10:15:21 AM »
And on the theme of the Semi, that potential customer is almost the complete opposite of the lizard brained personal vehicle buyer. Fleets ONLY care about the utility and financial viability of the trucks they run. 0-60 times, luxury features, etc have no value to the people buying them, so they'll need to start sharing more details like the actual weight of the truck, and the pricing.

Yeah, I’ve seen estimates of over $500,000 in just energy costs over the million mile lifespan.
https://youtu.be/Uv44W7xa4IU
Before other maintenance. (Semi trucks burn through brakes.) The 2019 price was on par with diesel trucks for the most part, but it has to be much more expensive now. The $40k tax credit will offset some. Nikola Insider estimates of 27,000 lbs  for the truck and 2,000 lighter than the Nikola Tre.

I haven’t seen any other EV class 8 models with over 300 mile range and those advertise charging in 90 minutes. With Tesla doing 500 miles and 400 miles charged in 30 minutes, it’s Utility on day trips looks far superior than Freightliner and Nikola.

Tesla invented another charging standard for this. Those types of things are the competitive advantage not looks or monopoly or whatever.

Charging time only matters if the chargers exist, and they're in the right locations. So there obviously needs to be some rollout in infrastructure for this to catch on. That takes time and a lot of money, but it seems like we know how to solve that problem.

The other existing Class 8 battery trucks are all focused on short range so charging time isn't massively critical. They need to make it through their daily routes and home to charge overnight. Short range means smaller battery which reduces weight, cost, etc.

As it is, the Tesla Semi seems like a bit of an odd duck to me. It's got more range than needed for short haul, but it's not configured for long haul, and the infrastructure to support that doesn't exist (yet). With estimates of 27k lbs, it's going to be heavier than a standard ICE long haul truck, but with a short haul (day cab) configuration. So it's going to be WAY heavier than the day cab short haul trucks that it's directly competing with. For reference Freightliner's eCascadia with 230 miles of range weighs under 19k lbs with a single drive axle, and under 22k with 2 drive axles.

A 500 mile dual passenger truck with a sleeper would compete more with typical long haul tractors, but that added hardware would add even more weight to the cab (probably getting close to 30k lbs for the tractor) so again it seems like it could be at a potential disadvantage. Not sure if they're doing the day cab because the charging infrastructure isn't there yet for long haul, but if that's true, then why pay for all of that battery capacity? There were initial plans for a cheaper, shorter range option of the Tesla Semi. Was that discussed at all the other night? That seems like the one that might be better supported by Cost of Ownership math in the current world that we live in.



« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 10:22:54 AM by Paper Chaser »

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1315 on: December 03, 2022, 10:58:39 AM »
250 miles isn’t close to full day of driving and  90 minutes is a substantial part of a work day.  Wouldn’t 500 be more useful even for short haul and 30 min charge to hand off the truck to another driver if running? Utility speaking.

Don’t think they’ll make a sleeper cab until V4 infrastructure is built out.

To be fair, I’m not a trucker or run a logistics company. 225,000 semis sold every year. The market will tell us.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 11:01:11 AM by lemonlyman »

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1316 on: December 03, 2022, 11:15:06 AM »
As for the smaller version, they’ve been working with PepsiCo for some time now. They might have found the cost to manufacture variety at low volumes wasn’t worth it or 300 miles wasn’t that useful.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1317 on: December 03, 2022, 11:22:10 AM »
The question is whether Tesla will continue to grow the top line quickly while simultaneously maintaining 8X industry margins in a near future when customers have many possible choices, such as a $34k Chevy Equinox BEV or Hyundai Kona BEV. An economist might say these new market entrants will break the monopolist's pricing power and force margins toward equilibrium.

What signs would we expect to see if Tesla's monopoly power was being eroded and if their margins are on he way down toward industry norms?

-price cuts
-production of lower-end models
-advertising

Suddenly, we're seeing price cuts: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/tesla-just-lowered-prices-for-model-3-and-model-y-but-only-if-you-buy-this-month/ar-AA14PAtz

It's the last month before a $7,500 tax credit kicks in, and it appears to be solely a cut in price for inventory cars - which they always try to clear at the end of a quarter one way or another.  A custom ordered Model 3 for delivery in December is still listed as starting around $47k.

I wouldn't read too much into it unless we see meaningful cuts in 1Q.

So ChpBstrd’s new proof of demand issues is Tesla selling cars at a small discount (~5%) for one month, in one country and just before a $7,500 tax credit returns for Tesla vehicles. The wall is pretty slippery, but by all means keep throwing, something might stick eventually.

Curious, what does your crystal ball say a $7,500 discount (tax credit) from current pricing will do for Tesla demand going forward?

I think we will know for the April earnings call. :)

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1318 on: December 03, 2022, 12:48:13 PM »
250 miles isn’t close to full day of driving and  90 minutes is a substantial part of a work day.  Wouldn’t 500 be more useful even for short haul and 30 min charge to hand off the truck to another driver if running? Utility speaking.

What I'm saying is that for most of the ways that a "Day cab" is used, 250 miles is adequate for a full day's work.  They're doing smaller local routes going from warehouse to warehouse, doing delivery/drop off along predetermined routes like Pepsi trucks, or handling drayage in ports, etc. They have predictable travel habits in a given radius. They're not knocking down thousands of miles per week or running around the clock. They do their daily tasks and then sit unused for long periods (nights/weekends). The drivers of these trucks won't be on the clock while they're charging very often. There may be a few applications like you describe, but they're not common. Maybe the Tesla will cause trucking companies to rethink their approach. But there would have to be very convincing financial justification.

The existing OEMs didn't all just accidentally stumble onto short range only applications for BEV trucks. They've been selling trucks to these customers for decades and know their customers' needs pretty well. It's also a big reason why the existing OEMs haven't continued to invest much more into battery tech for longer range applications, and have chosen instead to invest in hydrogen for those difficult duty cycles. Whether one tech ends up winning out over the other, or if they coexist long term is anybody's guess, but hydrogen has more money and people around the globe being invested into it every day, including lots of governments. Long range battery semis aren't seeing the same investment scale.

Tesla wouldn't miss the chance to tout their product's capabilities for marketing purposes, so the fact that the weight and price haven't been disclosed seems dubious to me. Time will tell.

Meanwhile, a company nobody outside of commercial trucking has ever heard of recently delivered their 500th BEV semi tractor:

https://www.fleetequipmentmag.com/orange-ev-electric-heavy-duty-truck/


lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1319 on: December 03, 2022, 01:02:27 PM »
250 miles could be adequate. For smaller trucks, yes. Class 8, I’m not sure. How do you know, Paperchaser? I’d say it’s likely existing OEMs stumbled into short range based on previous EV efforts and supply chain for batteries and charging. This is a relatively small market, diesel included, in the US. Getting it wrong would be a disaster. I think it’s more likely they didn’t put too many resources into it to avoid a large sunk cost. Probably why hydrogen has more investment like you said.

I agree the caginess on the specs was worrisome. We know they want to scale to 50,000 units in 2024.  We know they have way more orders than they can fill currently.

That orange company sounds awesome but this is a Tesla investor thread so the weight of information is obviously going to skew.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 01:07:44 PM by lemonlyman »

nick663

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1320 on: December 03, 2022, 01:18:11 PM »
250 miles isn’t close to full day of driving and  90 minutes is a substantial part of a work day.  Wouldn’t 500 be more useful even for short haul and 30 min charge to hand off the truck to another driver if running? Utility speaking.

What I'm saying is that for most of the ways that a "Day cab" is used, 250 miles is adequate for a full day's work.  They're doing smaller local routes going from warehouse to warehouse, doing delivery/drop off along predetermined routes like Pepsi trucks, or handling drayage in ports, etc. They have predictable travel habits in a given radius. They're not knocking down thousands of miles per week or running around the clock. They do their daily tasks and then sit unused for long periods (nights/weekends). The drivers of these trucks won't be on the clock while they're charging very often. There may be a few applications like you describe, but they're not common. Maybe the Tesla will cause trucking companies to rethink their approach. But there would have to be very convincing financial justification.

The existing OEMs didn't all just accidentally stumble onto short range only applications for BEV trucks. They've been selling trucks to these customers for decades and know their customers' needs pretty well. It's also a big reason why the existing OEMs haven't continued to invest much more into battery tech for longer range applications, and have chosen instead to invest in hydrogen for those difficult duty cycles. Whether one tech ends up winning out over the other, or if they coexist long term is anybody's guess, but hydrogen has more money and people around the globe being invested into it every day, including lots of governments. Long range battery semis aren't seeing the same investment scale.

Tesla wouldn't miss the chance to tout their product's capabilities for marketing purposes, so the fact that the weight and price haven't been disclosed seems dubious to me. Time will tell.

Meanwhile, a company nobody outside of commercial trucking has ever heard of recently delivered their 500th BEV semi tractor:

https://www.fleetequipmentmag.com/orange-ev-electric-heavy-duty-truck/
Funny you mention this because I was thinking about how a BEV would be perfect for yard switching due to the low number of miles and completely contained ecosystem.  They're like airport tugs (which also should be BEV).

Worth noting that those Orange yard trucks never leave property so not really the same market as Tesla.  Top speed on them is 25mph.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1321 on: December 04, 2022, 08:10:12 AM »
250 miles could be adequate. For smaller trucks, yes. Class 8, I’m not sure. How do you know, Paperchaser? I’d say it’s likely existing OEMs stumbled into short range based on previous EV efforts and supply chain for batteries and charging.

Without doxxing myself completely, I work in R&D for a global OEM that's centered around providing powertrains for commercial vehicles. On-highway trucking in North America is a very large piece of that pie. We unveiled a BEV semi platform before the Tesla Semi was originally shown back in 2017. Our product portfolio currently includes ICE with multiple fuels (and more on the way), hybrid, PHEV, and BEV power, as well as hydrogen fuel cells.

You can therefore consider me to be a bit biased I suppose, but I also probably know more about the nuances of this sector than your average internet commenter too. I interact with executives from lots of commercial OEMs several times per year, so I hear what does and does not work for them, what their concerns are, and I see what they're indicating interest in for the future and how they spend their money.

What has been clarified for me in recent years is that the carbon neutral future of work is going to require different options for different jobs. People see big semis or other work vehicles and assume that because they all currently use diesel that there will be one energy source for all work in the future but different options that are optimized for different jobs or duty cycles will get us carbon neutral much sooner than putting all of our chips into the BEV basket. Batteries currently work pretty well for buses and short range stuff like the Orange yard hauler I linked. And the BEV pilot testing programs that I'm aware of for many other machines and duty cycles have been very mixed.

A 27k lb day cab with 500 miles of range might work for a few fleets right now. It might even be ideal for a couple**. But in my opinion it's not likely to be a game changer for all of the trucking market as they currently use their products which is the way it's being marketed and presented in the media. A less expensive option with lower weight and shorter range would probably be received better by fleet managers due to improved cost of ownership and broader appeal.

**Note that one of the Tesla Semis shown for Pepsi was displayed with Frito~Lay markings (FL is a Pepsi subsidiary). It's going to haul loads of lightweight snacks, so the weight of the cab is less critical. But Pepsico also hauls much heavier loads full of beverages, which might require a truck cab that's not so heavy. Having options isn't a bad thing, but it illustrates that there isn't really a one-size fits all solution, even within the same company doing the same basic trips because the size and weight of the loads and the specifics of the routes can vary so much.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 08:13:25 AM by Paper Chaser »

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1322 on: December 04, 2022, 08:23:13 AM »
250 miles could be adequate. For smaller trucks, yes. Class 8, I’m not sure. How do you know, Paperchaser? I’d say it’s likely existing OEMs stumbled into short range based on previous EV efforts and supply chain for batteries and charging.

Without doxxing myself completely, I work in R&D for a global OEM that's centered around providing powertrains for commercial vehicles. On-highway trucking in North America is a very large piece of that pie. We unveiled a BEV semi platform before the Tesla Semi was originally shown back in 2017. Our product portfolio currently includes ICE with multiple fuels (and more on the way), hybrid, PHEV, and BEV power, as well as hydrogen fuel cells.

You can therefore consider me to be a bit biased I suppose, but I also probably know more about the nuances of this sector than your average internet commenter too. I interact with executives from lots of commercial OEMs several times per year, so I hear what does and does not work for them, what their concerns are, and I see what they're indicating interest in for the future and how they spend their money.

What has been clarified for me in recent years is that the carbon neutral future of work is going to require different options for different jobs. People see big semis or other work vehicles and assume that because they all currently use diesel that there will be one energy source for all work in the future but different options that are optimized for different jobs or duty cycles will get us carbon neutral much sooner than putting all of our chips into the BEV basket. Batteries currently work pretty well for buses and short range stuff like the Orange yard hauler I linked. And the BEV pilot testing programs that I'm aware of for many other machines and duty cycles have been very mixed.

A 27k lb day cab with 500 miles of range might work for a few fleets right now. It might even be ideal for a couple**. But in my opinion it's not likely to be a game changer for all of the trucking market as they currently use their products which is the way it's being marketed and presented in the media. A less expensive option with lower weight and shorter range would probably be received better by fleet managers due to improved cost of ownership and broader appeal.

**Note that one of the Tesla Semis shown for Pepsi was displayed with Frito~Lay markings (FL is a Pepsi subsidiary). It's going to haul loads of lightweight snacks, so the weight of the cab is less critical. But Pepsico also hauls much heavier loads full of beverages, which might require a truck cab that's not so heavy. Having options isn't a bad thing, but it illustrates that there isn't really a one-size fits all solution, even within the same company doing the same basic trips because the size and weight of the loads and the specifics of the routes can vary so much.

Always good to hear from a subject matter expert.  I'm someone who knows very little about the topic, although I'm working with one company that's looking to electrify a local delivery fleet.

Out of curiosity, where do you see the new dividing lines being drawn between fuel types, product lines, and how big is the market for each?  I don't even know the right terms to use, so I guess I'll ask you see the market share for various fuel types looking like a decade from now?

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1323 on: December 04, 2022, 08:31:38 AM »
Meanwhile, a company nobody outside of commercial trucking has ever heard of recently delivered their 500th BEV semi tractor:

https://www.fleetequipmentmag.com/orange-ev-electric-heavy-duty-truck/
Funny you mention this because I was thinking about how a BEV would be perfect for yard switching due to the low number of miles and completely contained ecosystem.  They're like airport tugs (which also should be BEV).

Worth noting that those Orange yard trucks never leave property so not really the same market as Tesla.  Top speed on them is 25mph.

I showed the Orange yard trucks to illustrate that there are existing EV options for some of this type of work. And that range can be optimized for specific jobs and duty cycles. Many people outside of the commercial sector may look at the Tesla Semi and think that it would be ideal for the jobs that trucks like the Orange do, but it's also excessive in the same way that a 400hp diesel engine would be excessive for that job. Fleet buyers increasingly want or need power that's optimized for their specific usage, so having a single 500 mile, BEV Day cab option may not be as disruptive as many people think.

TomTX

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1324 on: December 04, 2022, 08:34:33 AM »
Without doxxing myself completely, I work in R&D for a global OEM that's centered around providing powertrains for commercial vehicles. On-highway trucking in North America is a very large piece of that pie. We unveiled a BEV semi platform before the Tesla Semi was originally shown back in 2017. Our product portfolio currently includes ICE with multiple fuels (and more on the way), hybrid, PHEV, and BEV power, as well as hydrogen fuel cells.
Nice that your company is working on a range of options for the transition.

The only one I really shake my head at is hydrogen. Ballpark 3x the fueling cost of electricity while having an energy density 1/3 that of methane and no existing distribution or storage network of a scale useful for trucks.

If they can get over the cost hurdle somehow* (and there is a big enough niche of demand) we would likely be better off just using the Sabatier process to turn the hydrogen into methane and burn it in CNG trucks. Sure, there's some energy lost in the conversion - but it's in the same ballpark as the energy lost compressing hydrogen. Methane (ie, super clean natural gas) already has an existing national (global) distribution and storage network and even a decent truck fueling network in parts of the country.

*Advanced nuclear reactors or super cheap electrolysis units seem the most promising.

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1325 on: December 04, 2022, 10:11:02 AM »
Without doxxing myself completely, I work in R&D for a global OEM that's centered around providing powertrains for commercial vehicles. On-highway trucking in North America is a very large piece of that pie. We unveiled a BEV semi platform before the Tesla Semi was originally shown back in 2017. Our product portfolio currently includes ICE with multiple fuels (and more on the way), hybrid, PHEV, and BEV power, as well as hydrogen fuel cells.

You can therefore consider me to be a bit biased I suppose, but I also probably know more about the nuances of this sector than your average internet commenter too. I interact with executives from lots of commercial OEMs several times per year, so I hear what does and does not work for them, what their concerns are, and I see what they're indicating interest in for the future and how they spend their money.

Biased or not, that’s some seriously relevant experience to the concept. Tesla Odd Duck Semi it is! I appreciate your input. Tesla aims to produce 50,000 per year from the line. ~$12 billion in revenue. Not a massive part of the business but my expectations of the line is tempered a bit. Since 50,000 is about 25% of the Class 8 market in the US, that’s a significant capture of the market. If you’re right, that’s probably too high and they would have to export a good amount of those to sell them all.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1326 on: December 04, 2022, 01:49:18 PM »
Out of curiosity, where do you see the new dividing lines being drawn between fuel types, product lines, and how big is the market for each?  I don't even know the right terms to use, so I guess I'll ask you see the market share for various fuel types looking like a decade from now?

The shortest answer is that it depends. It depends on the regulations in a given area, the use of the vehicle in question, etc. I'd expect to have more options in the commercial sector than just the diesel that we've had for the last 100 years and the natural gas that we've had for the last 20 years. I expect the solutions to be more specialized for a given case/duty cycle than they have been for most of recent history.

To summarize the next 10-15 years I'll guess that:

- diesel remains the primary commercial fuel but will be increasingly complex and expensive with market share being eroded as a result.
- alternative fuels such as natural gas, gasoline, hydrogen, etc will expand their footprint as they're easier to meet increasingly tight emissions regulations and it's relatively easy to implement into existing vehicle platforms, fueling infrastructure, etc. Natural gas has been in use for a couple of decades now, and they'll continue to spread and evolve. Hydrogen ICEs are 3-5 years out but will be uncommon for a few years at least.
- batteries continue to gain popularity but it will be very market or job specific. Continuous heavy work such as heavy towing or farming/earth moving are likely to remain a point of difficulty unless weight comes way down
- hydrogen fuel cells have been the next big thing for decades, but I see them getting progressively more mature. They're currently in the working prototype phase for the most part, with a few unique cases generating revenue for their owners. They're still expensive and fueling infrastructure is almost non-existant which will take time to change. MAYBE they're more viable by 2040-ish, then taking several more years to gain meaningful market share.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2022, 01:51:21 PM by Paper Chaser »

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1327 on: December 04, 2022, 04:59:06 PM »
Without doxxing myself completely, I work in R&D for a global OEM that's centered around providing powertrains for commercial vehicles. On-highway trucking in North America is a very large piece of that pie. We unveiled a BEV semi platform before the Tesla Semi was originally shown back in 2017. Our product portfolio currently includes ICE with multiple fuels (and more on the way), hybrid, PHEV, and BEV power, as well as hydrogen fuel cells.

You can therefore consider me to be a bit biased I suppose, but I also probably know more about the nuances of this sector than your average internet commenter too. I interact with executives from lots of commercial OEMs several times per year, so I hear what does and does not work for them, what their concerns are, and I see what they're indicating interest in for the future and how they spend their money.

Biased or not, that’s some seriously relevant experience to the concept. Tesla Odd Duck Semi it is! I appreciate your input. Tesla aims to produce 50,000 per year from the line. ~$12 billion in revenue. Not a massive part of the business but my expectations of the line is tempered a bit. Since 50,000 is about 25% of the Class 8 market in the US, that’s a significant capture of the market. If you’re right, that’s probably too high and they would have to export a good amount of those to sell them all.

Don't forget that the about the easiest variant of any EV is one with a smaller battery.  It was designed for the longest range they could manage, likely with the PR impact in mind.

Selling a version with a smaller battery and a shorter range could happen pretty fast as demand gets filled for long range versions.

My anecdotal evidence with a company that has a fleet of smaller delivery vans suggests there's a lot of pent-up demand for solutions like this.  I'd expect something like this to expand the market for the next few years rather than steal share.  Unless the economic environment starts to gut everyone's Capex budget.

tarheeldan

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1328 on: December 04, 2022, 08:40:34 PM »
A less expensive option with lower weight and shorter range would probably be received better by fleet managers due to improved cost of ownership and broader appeal.

They're still doing the cheaper, 300mi version:

https://www.tesla.com/semi
Semi Specs
Fully Loaded at 82k lbs Gross Combination Weight

Mile Range
Approximately 300 or 500 miles

0-60 mph
20 seconds

Speed Up a 5% Grade
Highway speed limit

Powertrain
3 independent motors on rear axles

Energy Consumption
Less than 2 kWh per mile

Fast Charging
Up to 70% of range in 30 minutes

Fuel Savings (est.)
Up to $200,000 over 3 years

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1329 on: December 04, 2022, 11:48:00 PM »
Found this chart and thought it would be useful to the excellent commercial EV vehicle discussion above. Obviously, it’s hard to put this chart fully into context without pricing for each vehicle, but it is clear to me Tesla has achieved breakthroughs in range, charging time and kWh/mile efficiency. In turn, those advantages would justify a higher sales price because the premium would easily be recouped over time in a fleet vehicle and fleet managers aren’t concerned about up-front cost, only cost per mile over the life of the vehicle.

Good discussion on the use case for a 500 mile EV semi. Certainly, no expert myself in this area. I understand the vehicles needed are going to be varied as the tasks they perform. I will only say that if Tesla has tackled range, efficiency and charging rate (as the chart suggests), then it seems offering vehicles with different specs (battery size, weight, cab vs no cab, etc.) is very doable and is just a matter of scaling up or perhaps licensing.

I think starting with a Class 8 semi does the same thing for commercial EV adoption that the roadster and Model S did for personal transport. It’s a proof of concept. If you can do long haul trucking with heavy loads it instantly sends the message that EV isn’t a niche vehicle with limited uses or utility.

Paper Chaser

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1330 on: December 05, 2022, 05:32:39 AM »
Found this chart and thought it would be useful to the excellent commercial EV vehicle discussion above. Obviously, it’s hard to put this chart fully into context without pricing for each vehicle, but it is clear to me Tesla has achieved breakthroughs in range, charging time and kWh/mile efficiency. In turn, those advantages would justify a higher sales price because the premium would easily be recouped over time in a fleet vehicle and fleet managers aren’t concerned about up-front cost, only cost per mile over the life of the vehicle.

Good discussion on the use case for a 500 mile EV semi. Certainly, no expert myself in this area. I understand the vehicles needed are going to be varied as the tasks they perform. I will only say that if Tesla has tackled range, efficiency and charging rate (as the chart suggests), then it seems offering vehicles with different specs (battery size, weight, cab vs no cab, etc.) is very doable and is just a matter of scaling up or perhaps licensing.

I think starting with a Class 8 semi does the same thing for commercial EV adoption that the roadster and Model S did for personal transport. It’s a proof of concept. If you can do long haul trucking with heavy loads it instantly sends the message that EV isn’t a niche vehicle with limited uses or utility.


I want to caution that while $/mi is critical for this segment, so are initial price, downtime, serviceability, and total lifespan. If something breaks on the road, it needs to be repaired quickly and easily to get the freight moving. Service and support networks are critical. And the whole truck has to be designed and screwed together well enough to last for many hundreds of thousands of miles of traversing crap roads at highway speeds. These should be strong suits for BEV semis, but it remains to be seen if they actually are once used in the field. And of course weight can be a factor as well. With heavier trucks potentially moving less freight in a given trip, it can mean that more trucks (and drivers) are needed to move the same amount of freight in a given time period (cost per ton-mile goes up).

Also, the efficiency calculation for the Freightliner eCascadia shown in the chart is incorrect. Using their kwh/mi of range formula, it should be 438/230= 1.90 which is obviously still worse than what Elon tweeted, but is significantly better than how it's presented.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2022, 06:02:44 AM by Paper Chaser »

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1331 on: December 05, 2022, 08:24:55 AM »
Found this chart and thought it would be useful to the excellent commercial EV vehicle discussion above. Obviously, it’s hard to put this chart fully into context without pricing for each vehicle, but it is clear to me Tesla has achieved breakthroughs in range, charging time and kWh/mile efficiency. In turn, those advantages would justify a higher sales price because the premium would easily be recouped over time in a fleet vehicle and fleet managers aren’t concerned about up-front cost, only cost per mile over the life of the vehicle.

Good discussion on the use case for a 500 mile EV semi. Certainly, no expert myself in this area. I understand the vehicles needed are going to be varied as the tasks they perform. I will only say that if Tesla has tackled range, efficiency and charging rate (as the chart suggests), then it seems offering vehicles with different specs (battery size, weight, cab vs no cab, etc.) is very doable and is just a matter of scaling up or perhaps licensing.

I think starting with a Class 8 semi does the same thing for commercial EV adoption that the roadster and Model S did for personal transport. It’s a proof of concept. If you can do long haul trucking with heavy loads it instantly sends the message that EV isn’t a niche vehicle with limited uses or utility.


I want to caution that while $/mi is critical for this segment, so are initial price, downtime, serviceability, and total lifespan. If something breaks on the road, it needs to be repaired quickly and easily to get the freight moving. Service and support networks are critical. And the whole truck has to be designed and screwed together well enough to last for many hundreds of thousands of miles of traversing crap roads at highway speeds. These should be strong suits for BEV semis, but it remains to be seen if they actually are once used in the field. And of course weight can be a factor as well. With heavier trucks potentially moving less freight in a given trip, it can mean that more trucks (and drivers) are needed to move the same amount of freight in a given time period (cost per ton-mile goes up).

Also, the efficiency calculation for the Freightliner eCascadia shown in the chart is incorrect. Using their kwh/mi of range formula, it should be 438/230= 1.90 which is obviously still worse than what Elon tweeted, but is significantly better than how it's presented.

Agreed with your first paragraph, when I say “cost per mile over the lifetime of the vehicle” I was including the factors you list, such as downtime, maintenance, etc.  Also agree BEVs should excel on most of those fronts, but fleet managers will want solid real world performance and not spec sheet numbers before jumping on board. But, assuming the Tesla Semi delivers, the paradigm shifts almost overnight. From that point forward, any fleet not using electric is at an immediate competitive disadvantage. It’s fascinating to get to watch this play out in front of us.

Good catch on the math mistake. Just to be clear, this is not my chart or I’d fix it.

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1332 on: December 05, 2022, 10:13:11 AM »
Reuters published a story that Tesla China was cutting Model Y production by 20% due to domestic demand. 3 hours later numerous sources have said it's false. Amazing how quick Reuters publishes information without checking sources. Tesla China sold 100,291 units in November, a far and away record.

Travis

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1333 on: December 05, 2022, 11:30:18 AM »
Reuters published a story that Tesla China was cutting Model Y production by 20% due to domestic demand. 3 hours later numerous sources have said it's false. Amazing how quick Reuters publishes information without checking sources. Tesla China sold 100,291 units in November, a far and away record.

That's always been a Reuters thing.

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1334 on: December 05, 2022, 12:22:55 PM »
so tesla down sharply, seems related to switzerland limiting EV traffic.

I'm confused about this course of action, how switzerland benefits from limiting EV traffic, is anyone in the know?

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1335 on: December 05, 2022, 12:29:37 PM »
so tesla down sharply, seems related to switzerland limiting EV traffic.

I'm confused about this course of action, how switzerland benefits from limiting EV traffic, is anyone in the know?

More likely Tesla down from false report of Tesla Shanghai production being cut 20%. Not the first time Reuters has done something like this.

StashingAway

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1336 on: December 05, 2022, 02:01:10 PM »
so tesla down sharply, seems related to switzerland limiting EV traffic.

I'm confused about this course of action, how switzerland benefits from limiting EV traffic, is anyone in the know?

Most of the articles are pretty clear about the reasoning as far as I can find

1) It's not a ban in effect yet, just proposed
2) It's temporary, in that it is a measure to save energy during an energy crisis in Europe (read: unlikely to be correlated with stock prices)
3) Natural Gas is used in generation to make electricity, and they are strained most for natural gas. Limiting how much natural gas is burned to power cars makes it more available for more critical infrastructure and direct heat. Presumably this would be taking into account that gasoline supply is less critical to maintain over the course of the winter,

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1337 on: December 05, 2022, 02:08:54 PM »
so tesla down sharply, seems related to switzerland limiting EV traffic.

I'm confused about this course of action, how switzerland benefits from limiting EV traffic, is anyone in the know?

Most of the articles are pretty clear about the reasoning as far as I can find

1) It's not a ban in effect yet, just proposed
2) It's temporary, in that it is a measure to save energy during an energy crisis in Europe (read: unlikely to be correlated with stock prices)
3) Natural Gas is used in generation to make electricity, and they are strained most for natural gas. Limiting how much natural gas is burned to power cars makes it more available for more critical infrastructure and direct heat. Presumably this would be taking into account that gasoline supply is less critical to maintain over the course of the winter,

Thanks to you and @ColoradoTribe for the info!!

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1338 on: December 05, 2022, 03:42:36 PM »
A more balanced view I heard from someone familiar with the industry was that car companies do this all the time: slow production while waiting for a part, or to match demand.  Even if Tesla does slow the plant by 0% to 25%, it can be temporary and not an indication of production over the months ahead.

Tesla's P/E ratio is 52 on Yahoo Finance and 60 on Morningstar.  If 2023 starts bearish, expect TSLA stock to continue falling faster than the market (-48% YTD versus -13% for S&P 500).

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1339 on: December 05, 2022, 09:52:21 PM »
A more balanced view I heard from someone familiar with the industry was that car companies do this all the time: slow production while waiting for a part, or to match demand.  Even if Tesla does slow the plant by 0% to 25%, it can be temporary and not an indication of production over the months ahead.

Tesla's P/E ratio is 52 on Yahoo Finance and 60 on Morningstar.  If 2023 starts bearish, expect TSLA stock to continue falling faster than the market (-48% YTD versus -13% for S&P 500).

Tesla's forward looking PE currently sits around 35. The company that will grow 40-45% YOY for 2022 and will grow another 45-50% YOY in 2023 as Berlin and Austin ramp and cybertruck rolls out. If the stock price stays where it sits right now, the forward PE coming out of Q4 will be in the 20s and by the end of Q1 2023, likely in the high teens. It’s a contest between negative “sentiment” versus results. Results should eventually win out and move the stock price higher.

There’s is no factual basis to the rumor that Shanghai will reduce production 20% in the near term. Tesla has denied this is true. In the past Shanghai production has steadily increased. The only exceptions being COVID shut-downs or retooling the lines to further increase production. It’s FUD. Most FUD falls within the realm of the possible, it just lacks any factual grounding.

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1340 on: December 05, 2022, 10:16:55 PM »
Tesla's P/E ratio is 52 on Yahoo Finance and 60 on Morningstar.  If 2023 starts bearish, expect TSLA stock to continue falling faster than the market (-48% YTD versus -13% for S&P 500).

Tangent: PE trailing 12 month EPS is a pretty straightforward calculation. Yahoo is right on GAAP earnings. What is up with Morningstar? It’s a joke to be that wrong with 2022 technology. Is it using some other calculation I’m not aware of?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 06:37:40 AM by lemonlyman »

NorCal

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1341 on: December 06, 2022, 06:30:38 AM »
Tesla's P/E ratio is 52 on Yahoo Finance and 60 on Morningstar.  If 2023 starts bearish, expect TSLA stock to continue falling faster than the market (-48% YTD versus -13% for S&P 500).

Tangent: trailing 12 month EPS is a pretty straightforward calculation. Yahoo is right on GAAP earnings. What is up with Morningstar? It’s a joke to be that wrong with 2022 technology. Is it using some other calculation I’m not aware of?

I don't care enough to look at this specifically, but a lot of times these automated calculations get hung up by either using "adjusted" earnings or different versions of share count.  Basing it on adjusted earnings is dumb.  Differences in share count usually come down to accounting for options, warrants, or other authorized but un-issued shares.  This can be material in the tech world, particularly when the CEO is compensated with huge stock awards on the condition of hitting certain milestones.  At least I assume this is what's going on.

The PE is certainly high on a trailing basis, but keep in mind they've doubled their net income in the last year.  And it's hard to see a scenario where they don't increase the top line by at least 25% in 2023, even with some level of demand slowdown.  While I have no idea what the stock will do, I certainly wouldn't call it expensive at today's price. 

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1342 on: December 06, 2022, 07:47:25 AM »
Tesla's P/E ratio is 52 on Yahoo Finance and 60 on Morningstar.  If 2023 starts bearish, expect TSLA stock to continue falling faster than the market (-48% YTD versus -13% for S&P 500).
Tesla's forward looking PE currently sits around 35. The company that will grow 40-45% YOY for 2022 and will grow another 45-50% YOY in 2023 as Berlin and Austin ramp and cybertruck rolls out. If the stock price stays where it sits right now, the forward PE coming out of Q4 will be in the 20s and by the end of Q1 2023, likely in the high teens. It’s a contest between negative “sentiment” versus results. Results should eventually win out and move the stock price higher.
Morningstar shows 56.43 P/E ratio and 33.56 forward P/E ratio.
https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/xnas/tsla/valuation

Stock market losses in 2022 are not just "negative sentiment".  Ford (P/E of 6, fwd P/E 7) fell 33% YTD compared to TSLA's 48%.  With a 5x higher PE Tesla is only falling 1.5x as far.  And if market conditions turn worse in 2023, it again won't matter how well Tesla is growing - it will take another hit, just as it did in 2022.

ColoradoTribe

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1343 on: December 06, 2022, 08:25:56 AM »
Tesla's P/E ratio is 52 on Yahoo Finance and 60 on Morningstar.  If 2023 starts bearish, expect TSLA stock to continue falling faster than the market (-48% YTD versus -13% for S&P 500).
Tesla's forward looking PE currently sits around 35. The company that will grow 40-45% YOY for 2022 and will grow another 45-50% YOY in 2023 as Berlin and Austin ramp and cybertruck rolls out. If the stock price stays where it sits right now, the forward PE coming out of Q4 will be in the 20s and by the end of Q1 2023, likely in the high teens. It’s a contest between negative “sentiment” versus results. Results should eventually win out and move the stock price higher.
Morningstar shows 56.43 P/E ratio and 33.56 forward P/E ratio.
https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/xnas/tsla/valuation

Stock market losses in 2022 are not just "negative sentiment".  Ford (P/E of 6, fwd P/E 7) fell 33% YTD compared to TSLA's 48%.  With a 5x higher PE Tesla is only falling 1.5x as far.  And if market conditions turn worse in 2023, it again won't matter how well Tesla is growing - it will take another hit, just as it did in 2022.

I’m not talking about about broad market sentiment. The sentiment around Tesla is negative because of Twitter nonsense that has nothing to do with Tesla performance and FUD around demand issues.

Ford sales for November were their lowest in 13 years. Tesla is growing around 45% YOY. Let’s not pretend Tesla SP should somehow be linked to legacy auto.

You really think a growth company increasing sales 40-50% YOY and a forward PE in the teens (after Q1 if no change in SP) should simply move with the broader market? Why invest in any stock if all they do is move in lock-step with the market. There’s a disconnect between the performance and financials of Tesla and the SP that will eventually have to get rectified.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 08:44:02 AM by ColoradoTribe »

mistymoney

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1344 on: December 06, 2022, 08:57:56 AM »
Tesla's P/E ratio is 52 on Yahoo Finance and 60 on Morningstar.  If 2023 starts bearish, expect TSLA stock to continue falling faster than the market (-48% YTD versus -13% for S&P 500).
Tesla's forward looking PE currently sits around 35. The company that will grow 40-45% YOY for 2022 and will grow another 45-50% YOY in 2023 as Berlin and Austin ramp and cybertruck rolls out. If the stock price stays where it sits right now, the forward PE coming out of Q4 will be in the 20s and by the end of Q1 2023, likely in the high teens. It’s a contest between negative “sentiment” versus results. Results should eventually win out and move the stock price higher.
Morningstar shows 56.43 P/E ratio and 33.56 forward P/E ratio.
https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/xnas/tsla/valuation

Stock market losses in 2022 are not just "negative sentiment".  Ford (P/E of 6, fwd P/E 7) fell 33% YTD compared to TSLA's 48%.  With a 5x higher PE Tesla is only falling 1.5x as far.  And if market conditions turn worse in 2023, it again won't matter how well Tesla is growing - it will take another hit, just as it did in 2022.

I’m not talking about about broad market sentiment. The sentiment around Tesla is negative because of Twitter nonsense that has nothing to do with Tesla performance and FUD around demand issues.

Ford sales for November were their lowest in 13 years. Tesla is growing around 45% YOY. Let’s not pretend Tesla SP should somehow be linked to legacy auto.

You really think a growth company increasing sales 40-50% YOY and a forward PE in the teens (after Q1 if no change in SP) should simply move with the broader market? Why invest in any stock if all they do is move in lock-step with the market. There’s a disconnect between the performance and financials of Tesla and the SP that will eventually have to get rectified.

One thing on the twitter I'm uncertain of, it all seems focused on US politics. Are other countries impacted on the negative sentiments? Seems like there are certain elements that may impact globally, but certainly not the whole thing.

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1345 on: December 06, 2022, 09:07:46 AM »
I don't know what the stock price is going to do next year, but it could take a hit like MustacheAndaHalf said. It doesn't really matter that much because I don't need the invested capital. If you are looking to sell stock for living on in 2023, probably not a good idea to hold next year's funds in investments with a looming recession. IMO, The long run earnings power of the business will cause the stock to ratchet way higher in the long run. That's what I'm interested in.

My personal forward P/E for 2023 is 19. Remember when Morningstar's Forward P/E for 2022 was well over 100? Even with TSLA at all time highs, that was way off. I'd take any future valuation factory number with a grain of salt. They aren't doing the research. TBF, 33.56 is certainly going to be closer, but I wouldn't hang my hat on it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 09:17:25 AM by lemonlyman »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1346 on: December 06, 2022, 09:33:36 AM »
Tesla's P/E ratio is 52 on Yahoo Finance and 60 on Morningstar.  If 2023 starts bearish, expect TSLA stock to continue falling faster than the market (-48% YTD versus -13% for S&P 500).
Tesla's forward looking PE currently sits around 35. The company that will grow 40-45% YOY for 2022 and will grow another 45-50% YOY in 2023 as Berlin and Austin ramp and cybertruck rolls out. If the stock price stays where it sits right now, the forward PE coming out of Q4 will be in the 20s and by the end of Q1 2023, likely in the high teens. It’s a contest between negative “sentiment” versus results. Results should eventually win out and move the stock price higher.
Morningstar shows 56.43 P/E ratio and 33.56 forward P/E ratio.
https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/xnas/tsla/valuation

Stock market losses in 2022 are not just "negative sentiment".  Ford (P/E of 6, fwd P/E 7) fell 33% YTD compared to TSLA's 48%.  With a 5x higher PE Tesla is only falling 1.5x as far.  And if market conditions turn worse in 2023, it again won't matter how well Tesla is growing - it will take another hit, just as it did in 2022.

I’m not talking about about broad market sentiment. The sentiment around Tesla is negative because of Twitter nonsense that has nothing to do with Tesla performance and FUD around demand issues.

Ford sales for November were their lowest in 13 years. Tesla is growing around 45% YOY. Let’s not pretend Tesla SP should somehow be linked to legacy auto.

You really think a growth company increasing sales 40-50% YOY and a forward PE in the teens (after Q1 if no change in SP) should simply move with the broader market? Why invest in any stock if all they do is move in lock-step with the market. There’s a disconnect between the performance and financials of Tesla and the SP that will eventually have to get rectified.
"a forward PE in the teens ... if no change in SP"?  How is that a factual statement?

My source for 33 fwd P/E is Morningstar.  What is yours?

StashingAway

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1347 on: December 06, 2022, 09:34:41 AM »
One thing on the twitter I'm uncertain of, it all seems focused on US politics. Are other countries impacted on the negative sentiments? Seems like there are certain elements that may impact globally, but certainly not the whole thing.

The issues with Twitter, at their base, are inherent to the attention economy. Twitters (and social media in general) primary goal as a platform is to keep people engaged. The more users and engagement it has, the better. The quality of the engagement does not matter as a base metric. Algorithms are designed to increase engagement. As a side effect, our base human condition and psychology is drawn to outrage more than anything else. We engage way more (dislikes, comments, screen time) with offensive news than we do with good news. This in turn creates a lot of very riled up people who start to create "us vs them" groups who otherwise wouldn't have such a controversial view of the world. Being that it's a psychological phenomenon, to the extent that other countries are on SM they are susceptible. It's the primary reason I don't think anyone can "fix" Twitter without being overridden by another social media company with less noble goals.

This is a long winded way of saying that the inherent design of Twitter (and social media) makes their issues just as prominent globally as they are in the US. There are extremist groups popping up all over the world.


Back to Tesla, I can definitely see the enthusiasm for the brand if one watches the various youtube videos on Tesla tech (large castings, etc), and I even recall Munro live early episodes criticizing Tesla production. I haven't check in in awhile, they sure have changed their tune! Pretty exciting stuff. Still not sure how that translates to 10x valuation of Ford or GM for the general public, but I can see the appeal.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1348 on: December 06, 2022, 09:41:36 AM »
My personal forward P/E for 2023 is 19. Remember when Morningstar's Forward P/E for 2022 was well over 100? Even with TSLA at all time highs, that was way off. I'd take any future valuation factory number with a grain of salt. They aren't doing the research. TBF, 33.56 is certainly going to be closer, but I wouldn't hang my hat on it.
Yahoo Finance, Morningstar, Y-charts all have TSLA price/earnings of 55-60.  While you're picking on Morningstar, there doesn't seem to be big differences between those three - with Mornigstar having the median P/E value of 56.  To me it makes more sense to trust their data than someone's "personal forward P/E".

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/key-statistics?p=TSLA
https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/xnas/tsla/valuation
https://ycharts.com/companies/TSLA/pe_ratio

lemonlyman

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Re: Is Tesla a good investment?
« Reply #1349 on: December 06, 2022, 09:46:35 AM »
My personal forward P/E for 2023 is 19. Remember when Morningstar's Forward P/E for 2022 was well over 100? Even with TSLA at all time highs, that was way off. I'd take any future valuation factory number with a grain of salt. They aren't doing the research. TBF, 33.56 is certainly going to be closer, but I wouldn't hang my hat on it.
Yahoo Finance, Morningstar, Y-charts all have TSLA price/earnings of 55-60.  While you're picking on Morningstar, there doesn't seem to be big differences between those three - with Mornigstar having the median P/E value of 56.  To me it makes more sense to trust their data than someone's "personal forward P/E".

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/TSLA/key-statistics?p=TSLA
https://www.morningstar.com/stocks/xnas/tsla/valuation
https://ycharts.com/companies/TSLA/pe_ratio

Their Forward P/E was over 100 in December 2021. Not today. That's the point. They're making a estimate of earnings for next 4 quarters. That's what Forward P/E is. And their estimate from 2021 for 2022 was crazy wrong.

I absolutely agree you should trust them more than me. But I don't trust them more than me. Also the point. Make your own earnings estimates if you're going to invest in a stock or find forecasted information someone else does that makes sense to you. As far as I know, Morningstar doesn't publish their forecasting models. How do you know how many vehicles sold they're using, gross margin, op ex? There's zero information to back up that number. i.e. it's insane to trust that number. Now regular P/E is easy. It's all published information. Forward P/E, nah.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 10:00:20 AM by lemonlyman »