Is Tesla a good investment?

[ChpBstrd]

Oh, and if you bend the frame on most modern cars, it's scrap.

The crash absorption rails can be cut off & replaced with a bolted part for collision repair

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1313874241134063616?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1313874241134063616%7Ctwgr%5E972da973ff329d2f8f0c0762c638720397a9788c%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.teslarati.com%2Ftesla-single-cast-collision-repair-strategy-elon-musk%2F


Why is Musk talking about cutting chunks of Tesla frames off for repairs?  Certainly makes it seem like some of the Telsa frame is expected to be damaged in collisions.  I get that there are tremendous efficiencies in stamping out a single piece frame for Tesla . . . but wouldn't it be a lot cheaper for the car owner if there was simply a removable part rather than part of single cast design?  Or am I crazy about this?  (I'm not a car guy, just curious.)

I am a car guy, and Musk is an idiot. Nobody is bolting on replacement frame pieces in a modern car. A bent frame (in as much as any modern car has a frame, all Teslas are really a unibody with no distinct frame) can either be straightened on a frame rack or the car is totaled. That is not unique to a Tesla. Replacing major chassis structure just isn't done, at least in America, at any scale. With body shops charging hundreds of dollars per hour and liability for any injuries in that car passing to any and every party involved in the repair, it just doesn't make sense financially for the insurance companies to do it. So they send it to auction with a salvage title and pass the liability on.

Perhaps with electrification we're moving away from a repair ecosystem where people rebuild the ICE engines and transmissions of their cars, and we've moving toward a repair ecosystem where the motor and battery contain most of the car's value, and we replace the disposable body around these parts. I think all-plastic cars are on the way. It might simplify recycling of the shell when you can just pull the drivetrain and melt the whole thing at once, straining out a few bolts and wires. 

Also, the paint seems to last longer on plastic car panels because they don't get as hot and because corrosion doesn't seep up from underneath the paint. Look at how many 1990's Saturns still have glossy fenders and doors (the hoods and roofs were metal though).

[mistymoney]

Note to self:
Do not invest your money into companies where other people invest their emotions (love or hate).

TSLA 52 week performance as of today: -54%.

YTD - 37%
5 YR - 532%
IPO - 11,184%

It’s a rather weak and frankly insulting argument to accuse Tesla investors of “investing their emotions” simply because you do not see the value. I didn’t invest in Apple. I didn’t get it, but I didn’t accuse Apple investors of being Steve Jobs fan boys, go getting lucky, or of investing emotionally to make myself feel better. Good for those who had the foresight.

I’ve been invested in Tesla since 2013. Almost a decade. It’s my lack of emotion that has allowed me to focus on the signal, ignore all the noise, and stay invested through all the turbulence.

Tesla grew revenue 51% YOY. Now, that kinda growth from a megacap does bring a tear to my eye : )

Stock is up sharply today. I think the exciting piece of the earnings was the energy segment up 152% from Q4 2021.

If we want to look at emotion: There seems to be a remarkably emotional response by tesla bears in this thread. Like they made an initial decision on tesla 3-4 years ago and no amount of growth or profit is going to change that, constantly moving goalposts for what tesla success looks like, and getting all bent out of shape over any information to the contrary while cherry picking performance timelines to show the worst possible metric (while the entire market is down!) and ignoring the larger trend of profitability and valuation.

I mean it takes a lot of emotion to keep creatively finding new ways that tesla will fail while claiming not to care. It makes sense for tesla investors or potential tesla investors to be into the nitty gritty of it, but it appears like tesla bears made a 'prediction' on tesla 3-4 years ago and are very emotionally invested in not altering their view no matter how much the landscape changes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance.

Meanwhile - the rocketlab thread ha also followed a stock that has been down 70% in the past year, has had a number of fails, and has never turned a profit. No one saying boo over there really. Seems odd to me.

[ColoradoTribe]

Note to self:
Do not invest your money into companies where other people invest their emotions (love or hate).

TSLA 52 week performance as of today: -54%.

YTD - 37%
5 YR - 532%
IPO - 11,184%

It’s a rather weak and frankly insulting argument to accuse Tesla investors of “investing their emotions” simply because you do not see the value. I didn’t invest in Apple. I didn’t get it, but I didn’t accuse Apple investors of being Steve Jobs fan boys, go getting lucky, or of investing emotionally to make myself feel better. Good for those who had the foresight.

I’ve been invested in Tesla since 2013. Almost a decade. It’s my lack of emotion that has allowed me to focus on the signal, ignore all the noise, and stay invested through all the turbulence.

Tesla grew revenue 51% YOY. Now, that kinda growth from a megacap does bring a tear to my eye : )

Stock is up sharply today. I think the exciting piece of the earnings was the energy segment up 152% from Q4 2021.

If we want to look at emotion: There seems to be a remarkably emotional response by tesla bears in this thread. Like they made an initial decision on tesla 3-4 years ago and no amount of growth or profit is going to change that, constantly moving goalposts for what tesla success looks like, and getting all bent out of shape over any information to the contrary while cherry picking performance timelines to show the worst possible metric (while the entire market is down!) and ignoring the larger trend of profitability and valuation.

I mean it takes a lot of emotion to keep creatively finding new ways that tesla will fail while claiming not to care. It makes sense for tesla investors or potential tesla investors to be into the nitty gritty of it, but it appears like tesla bears made a 'prediction' on tesla 3-4 years ago and are very emotionally invested in not altering their view no matter how much the landscape changes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief_perseverance.

Meanwhile - the rocketlab thread ha also followed a stock that has been down 70% in the past year, has had a number of fails, and has never turned a profit. No one saying boo over there really. Seems odd to me.

Bingo!

To further illustrate your point on the growth of energy segment (see attached graph). The services gross margin includes Tesla insurance. On the earnings call it was mentioned Tesla insurance entered 2023 with annual revenue of 300 million. Comparisons to legacy auto will become increasingly irrelevant. Tesla is a software and hardware company, a an energy company, a car manufacturer, a service company, and an AI company.

Tesla’s strong cash position (and virtually no debt) is also paying off in the financials (see graph). Compare this to legacy auto with billions in debt.

[Must_ache]

I bought 100 shares earlier this week (yes!!) and probably have some more of it buried in S&P funds.  But for picking individual stocks I generally don't allow myself to buy more than about 1% of my total net worth in any one stock.  I don't need that kind of risk.

[mistymoney]

I bought 100 shares earlier this week (yes!!) and probably have some more of it buried in S&P funds.  But for picking individual stocks I generally don't allow myself to buy more than about 1% of my total net worth in any one stock.  I don't need that kind of risk.

That sounds very sensible!

[bacchi]

If we want to look at emotion: There seems to be a remarkably emotional response by tesla bears in this thread. Like they made an initial decision on tesla 3-4 years ago and no amount of growth or profit is going to change that, constantly moving goalposts for what tesla success looks like, and getting all bent out of shape over any information to the contrary while cherry picking performance timelines to show the worst possible metric (while the entire market is down!) and ignoring the larger trend of profitability and valuation.

Moving goalposts? It was just a few weeks ago when we learned that deliveries didn't reach 50% and the goalpost was shifted to production numbers even though Tesla's/Musk's stated delivery goal wasn't achieved (1.4M deliveries). And then there were complaints about how Tesla counts revenue (by delivery, not when a car rolls off the line), even though that's clearly mentioned in Tesla's edgar filings.

Then there were the cries of "There's no demand problem!" even when Tesla was cutting prices and the Shanghai factory shut down at the end of the year. Because companies drop prices all the time by 10-20% when there's high demand and people are clamoring for a product.*

Finally, there were the cries about "There's no real competition!" even though BYD, a legacy manufacturer, is selling equivalent sized sedans and will probably sell more BEVs than Tesla this year (142% YOY in Q4). But we're a US majority board and only US and European car companies count or something.


* To forestall the predictable response, Tesla doesn't have a demand problem now. Price might have something to do with that.


-----
It'll be interesting to see if Tesla can maintain its EPS and profit margins this quarter. Their best selling car is the Y and prices were cut by $13k ($12.5k) in the US (and by 13% in China). The Y now qualifies for the EV rebate so volume will obviously go up but profits will obviously go down. I think lemonlyman is correct in that Tesla did achieve some COGS/production efficiencies last year given its revenue missed but EPS exceeded.

[ColoradoTribe]

Note to self:
Do not invest your money into companies where other people invest their emotions (love or hate).

TSLA 52 week performance as of today: -54%.

YTD - 37%
5 YR - 532%
IPO - 11,184%

It’s a rather weak and frankly insulting argument to accuse Tesla investors of “investing their emotions” simply because you do not see the value. I didn’t invest in Apple. I didn’t get it, but I didn’t accuse Apple investors of being Steve Jobs fan boys, go getting lucky, or of investing emotionally to make myself feel better. Good for those who had the foresight.

I’ve been invested in Tesla since 2013. Almost a decade. It’s my lack of emotion that has allowed me to focus on the signal, ignore all the noise, and stay invested through all the turbulence.

Tesla grew revenue 51% YOY. Now, that kinda growth from a megacap does bring a tear to my eye : )

.

Since, we’re looking at Tesla SP performance over time. Let’s take a trip down memory lane. In September 2018 you were concerned about Tesla’s looming bankruptcy and expressed the bolded concern below. Somehow Tesla managed "to operate a little longer” and the stock price is up 8X from the date of that post. All stocks eventually go to zero, so if you keep expressing new concerns eventually one of them might come to fruition in a meaningful way and you can crow about how you knew it all along. Don’t give up!

FWIW, we can currently buy out options on TSLA expiring in January 2021 at the $50 strike price for about $6.88. In layman's terms, this is a wager that would yield a 627% return if TSLA goes bankrupt and shares go to zero and a 100% loss if that fails to happen.

Those are not bad odds considering that Elon's Twitter addiction might have just blocked the company's last remaining route to raise the $2B it needs to operate a little longer.

https://seekingalpha.com/article/4207331-tesla-may-now-locked-capital-markets

I'm way too risk averse to throw $100k at the idea, but damn it sure is a tempting fantasy play to retire in 6-12 months.

[ColoradoTribe]

Thanks for sharing your concerns du jour Bacchi. You first contributed to this thread in September 2020 to caution Tesla investors fortunate enough to invest early that they should consider exiting the stock (presumably before it crashes). Anyone taking your advice spared themselves a doubling of their investment in the months to follow. You also warned us about the risk Tesla wouldn’t achieve  “high profits” or "corporate longevity", yet somehow Tesla persists while making industry leading profit margin.

Musk is more of a super-optimistic idea person and that's why he's been so successful.

As we've seen, that's not enough for some investors or analysts, including the S&P committee. The risk is just too high -- optimism and great ideas don't always mean high profits or corporate longevity.

The trick for the early Tesla investors is to realize that trades have 2 sides. One is the entry and one is the exit.

[bacchi]

Thanks for sharing your concerns du jour Bacchi. You first contributed to this thread in September 2020 to caution Tesla investors fortunate enough to invest early that they should consider exiting the stock (presumably before it crashes). Anyone taking your advice spared themselves a doubling of their investment in the months to follow. You also warned us about the risk Tesla wouldn’t achieve  “high profits” or "corporate longevity", yet somehow Tesla persists while making industry leading profit margin.

Musk is more of a super-optimistic idea person and that's why he's been so successful.

As we've seen, that's not enough for some investors or analysts, including the S&P committee. The risk is just too high -- optimism and great ideas don't always mean high profits or corporate longevity.

The trick for the early Tesla investors is to realize that trades have 2 sides. One is the entry and one is the exit.

I'm confused.

Are you suggesting that there wasn't a risk with Tesla in 2020? That Tesla stock is/was as safe as holding T-bills?

I also wrote that trades have 2 sides. Do you disagree with that?



Eta: Do you want to address the EPS issues I raised? Or do you prefer to try and score points in your self-created tribal game?

[TomTX]

Moving goalposts? It was just a few weeks ago when we learned that deliveries didn't reach 50% and the goalpost was shifted to production numbers even though Tesla's/Musk's stated delivery goal wasn't achieved (1.4M deliveries).

Got a good citation that it was actually a delivery goal? Typically the predictions are for production and it's common for popular media to misreport one for the other.

[TomTX]

Finally, there were the cries about "There's no real competition!" even though BYD, a legacy manufacturer, is selling equivalent sized sedans and will probably sell more BEVs than Tesla this year (142% YOY in Q4). But we're a US majority board and only US and European car companies count or something.

Really? At this point I've been saying for years that Chinese EV companies are likely to be the biggest competition for Tesla.

[bacchi]

Finally, there were the cries about "There's no real competition!" even though BYD, a legacy manufacturer, is selling equivalent sized sedans and will probably sell more BEVs than Tesla this year (142% YOY in Q4). But we're a US majority board and only US and European car companies count or something.

Really? At this point I've been saying for years that Chinese EV companies are likely to be the biggest competition for Tesla.

It wasn't directed at you, then.

[bacchi]

Moving goalposts? It was just a few weeks ago when we learned that deliveries didn't reach 50% and the goalpost was shifted to production numbers even though Tesla's/Musk's stated delivery goal wasn't achieved (1.4M deliveries).

Got a good citation that it was actually a delivery goal? Typically the predictions are for production and it's common for popular media to misreport one for the other.

Their IR shareholder delivery deck has included it numerous times. In the Q3 2022 deck,

We plan to grow our manufacturing capacity as quickly as possible. Over a multi-year horizon, we expect to achieve 50% average annual growth in vehicle deliveries. The rate of growth will depend on our equipment capacity, factory uptime, operational efficiency and the capacity and stability of the supply chain.

It was also in the Q1/22 deck, and the Q4/21 deck, and the Q3/21 deck...

While the deck does state "average annual growth," the street obviously expected 50% delivery growth in 2022, especially with Musk's prediction of 1.5M earlier in the year.* It's why the stock dumped on the 3rd.


* During the Q1 2022 earnings call, Musk predicted "a reasonable shot at a 60% increase over last year" and "So it seems likely that we will be able to produce over one and a half million cars this year. That's my that's my best guess." He's an off-the-cuff guy but investors listen to that shit. He still hasn't learned that.

[TomTX]

While the deck does state "average annual growth," the street obviously expected 50% delivery growth in 2022, especially with Musk's prediction of 1.5M earlier in the year.* It's why the stock dumped on the 3rd.

Yea, I've always heard it as a long term average of 50% growth rate. Yes, Musk's "off the cuff" comments are usually overly optimistic. I would personally interpret "a reasonable shot" as an optimistic upper bound, not the midpoint or expected result.

One might note that was a pretty transitory "dump" - it took a whole 8 days to fully recover and the stock is now >$40 higher than pre-"dump".

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-lm&q=tsla

[bacchi]

While the deck does state "average annual growth," the street obviously expected 50% delivery growth in 2022, especially with Musk's prediction of 1.5M earlier in the year.* It's why the stock dumped on the 3rd.

Yea, I've always heard it as a long term average of 50% growth rate. Yes, Musk's "off the cuff" comments are usually overly optimistic. I would personally interpret "a reasonable shot" as an optimistic upper bound, not the midpoint or expected result.

One might note that was a pretty transitory "dump" - it took a whole 8 days to fully recover and the stock is now >$40 higher than pre-"dump".

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-lm&q=tsla

My guess is the recovery was from higher EPS than expected even with the missed delivery and revenue. The dropped prices and subsequent increased sales have helped propel the stock as well. (The only numbers we have this month are from the China weekly registrations and they look strong. We can assume that the US numbers are also strong, especially with the EV credit.)

It's a line, though, right? Sell 500 widgets at $100 or sell 700 widgets at $90. Tesla is tweaking the levers to get the most profit. Or maybe it cut prices to maximize its production or to put pressure on its competitors.

[mistymoney]

Yeah - I consider all of that noise rather than signal. I wouldn't buy an individual stock to "score big" in 1-2 quarters (although it doesn't hurt!), it would be expectations to score big (aka over and above the sp500) over the long haul.

On my initial purchase, I am down 26%. I'm not super excited by that, and I am tracking it, but I bought for the 5-10 year and beyond potential for the stock. Even stock picking 1-2 years forward is not for me, not where I would have any expectation that I would do well at all. Seems like reading tea leaves to be able to do that, or lottery-esque. aka more chance than skill involved. (ETA: for MOST people. Those who have those skills, I am assuming are super rich by now.....)

And tesla as "just" a car company, I would not have bought the stock although I would have bought the car. It is tesla as the disruptor to the auto industry (which is already 'done' in my opinoin, now is just the long term fallout of that disruption), and the coming disruption in AI/FSD, energy, etc. that has me wanting to attach to the tail of the comet on that one.

And sure - it may not happen. Nothing is guaranteed. BYD may scoop on autos, someone else on AI, and someone else on roofing, energy, etc. But no one is competing in all these spaces at once, which makes tesla so exciting as a company and makes it so unlikely someone is going to scoop at all of those segments, or scoop all of them even less likely. Odds favor the house heavily on this one. So I opted to be part of the house.

Whether tesla said they were estimating growth to average 50%/year and they only do 40% growth a year (this year, or average per year ongoing) is completely irrelevant to why I bought the stock. If they are down 70% one year with a bear market and supply chain issues, has 100% nothing to do with why I bought the stock. If they don't exceed their ATH within 5 years, then I will be filed under "disappointed".

So mark your calendars! We will revisit my post on 1/27/2028!!!!

[Viking Thor]

It’s definitely a long term bet. I invested in early 2020 figuring to hold for like 10 years.

Actually picked up a few additional odd shares recently when it seemed absurdly oversold.

I like to follow the company to know what’s going on but not looking to actively trade and not that concerned with the short term stock price fluctuations, given my time horizon I’m more concerned with actual company performance and fundamentals.

I think 2023 will be decent but not a banner year in terms of revenue and profit growth. Mega pack will give a good profit boost and that is I think under appreciated by the market. That business will have explosive growth for the next several years, I think it’s sold out through 2026 already and the Lathrope factory will ramp up significantly over the next couple years.

Model 3 and Y sales will grow but face some headwinds from high interest rates and potential 2h recession.

Cyber will be released this year but not have meaningful impact due to low volumes. As that ramps in 2024 and 2025 that will eventually have a huge impact. 1.5m preorders.

Semi will also likely be a solid profit booster but again not in 2023. They just announced the building of a new semi production line in Nevada, so I would guess that will ramp a bit in 2024 but more 2025 and 2026.

Then they have a lower cost model 3 in the works and likely a compact introduced in a couple years.

Easy to see a straightforward path to high growth through 2030.

[Niceday]

While the deck does state "average annual growth," the street obviously expected 50% delivery growth in 2022, especially with Musk's prediction of 1.5M earlier in the year.* It's why the stock dumped on the 3rd.

Yea, I've always heard it as a long term average of 50% growth rate. Yes, Musk's "off the cuff" comments are usually overly optimistic. I would personally interpret "a reasonable shot" as an optimistic upper bound, not the midpoint or expected result.

One might note that was a pretty transitory "dump" - it took a whole 8 days to fully recover and the stock is now >$40 higher than pre-"dump".

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-lm&q=tsla

My guess is the recovery was from higher EPS than expected even with the missed delivery and revenue. The dropped prices and subsequent increased sales have helped propel the stock as well. (The only numbers we have this month are from the China weekly registrations and they look strong. We can assume that the US numbers are also strong, especially with the EV credit.)

It's a line, though, right? Sell 500 widgets at $100 or sell 700 widgets at $90. Tesla is tweaking the levers to get the most profit. Or maybe it cut prices to maximize its production or to put pressure on its competitors.

The stock rise in the last 2 days has very little to do with the earnings. There were real concerns about future operating margins and the potential drag from the recession, but the management essentially obliterated all the material concerns in the earnings call. There is not a chink in the armor. Shorts are scrambling to cover, people who sold are buying back their shares, plus people that have been on the sidelines are inching to get in. The stock was very cheap. The stock is up more than 20% in 2 days. It may now come back down a little after a gigantic move in such a short period of time. Getting the stock is still a pretty good way to get exposure to electrification and AI if you have a long horizon. I mean if you own stocks and like BYD, by all means get some BYD. You don't need to limit yourself to BYD only.

[bacchi]

While the deck does state "average annual growth," the street obviously expected 50% delivery growth in 2022, especially with Musk's prediction of 1.5M earlier in the year.* It's why the stock dumped on the 3rd.

Yea, I've always heard it as a long term average of 50% growth rate. Yes, Musk's "off the cuff" comments are usually overly optimistic. I would personally interpret "a reasonable shot" as an optimistic upper bound, not the midpoint or expected result.

One might note that was a pretty transitory "dump" - it took a whole 8 days to fully recover and the stock is now >$40 higher than pre-"dump".

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-lm&q=tsla

My guess is the recovery was from higher EPS than expected even with the missed delivery and revenue. The dropped prices and subsequent increased sales have helped propel the stock as well. (The only numbers we have this month are from the China weekly registrations and they look strong. We can assume that the US numbers are also strong, especially with the EV credit.)

It's a line, though, right? Sell 500 widgets at $100 or sell 700 widgets at $90. Tesla is tweaking the levers to get the most profit. Or maybe it cut prices to maximize its production or to put pressure on its competitors.

The stock rise in the last 2 days has very little to do with the earnings. There were real concerns about future operating margins and the potential drag from the recession, but the management essentially obliterated all the material concerns in the earnings call.

Fair enough. I didn't listen to the call.

How does Tesla maintain profit margins with the price drop? Did they cut costs by 10-20% recently or achieve 10-20% efficiency in the last month?

[ColoradoTribe]

Attached chart shows Tesla has been achieving average annual growth of 50% from 2013 to present. As Misty and Viking state above, long-term investors aren’t concerned with quarterly makes or misses or analysts that freak out if Tesla narrowly misses a quarterly delivery goal in the midst of a global pandemic, a war in Europe, and supply chain issues. Bears will continue to point to each obstacle, real and imagined, along the way, but never check the rearview mirror to see how far Tesla has come in such a short time.

[ColoradoTribe]

Another interesting chart. This one shows the revenue of companies over the 5 year period after they achieved 10B+ in revenue. Over the period of 2017-2022 Tesla generated more revenue that Meta, Google, Apple, Amazon or Microsoft. And Tesla did it despite competing in a capital and manufacturing intensive industry with long-established incumbents. It can be argued that Tesla had the toughest path yet still generated more revenue. With Tesla, the further you zoom out the clearer the picture.

[PDXTabs]

Autoblog: Teslas are so expensive to repair, insurers are writing them off, which is driving up insurance for Tesla owners.

[AJDZee]

Another interesting chart. This one shows the revenue of companies over the 5 year period after they achieved 10B+ in revenue. Over the period of 2017-2022 Tesla generated more revenue that Meta, Google, Apple, Amazon or Microsoft. And Tesla did it despite competing in a capital and manufacturing intensive industry with long-established incumbents. It can be argued that Tesla had the toughest path yet still generated more revenue. With Tesla, the further you zoom out the clearer the picture.

Pretty cool graph, very impressive. It would be interesting to see it adjusted to inflation though. Going from $10B to $20B is a lot easier in 2017 than doing a $10B jump 20 years ago.

[ColoradoTribe]

Another interesting chart. This one shows the revenue of companies over the 5 year period after they achieved 10B+ in revenue. Over the period of 2017-2022 Tesla generated more revenue that Meta, Google, Apple, Amazon or Microsoft. And Tesla did it despite competing in a capital and manufacturing intensive industry with long-established incumbents. It can be argued that Tesla had the toughest path yet still generated more revenue. With Tesla, the further you zoom out the clearer the picture.

Pretty cool graph, very impressive. It would be interesting to see it adjusted to inflation though. Going from $10B to $20B is a lot easier in 2017 than doing a $10B jump 20 years ago.

Good point. I don’t know, but I would guess not adjusted just by looking at it. Still, even if Tesla only fell into the middle of this pack after adjusting for inflation it’s still impressive given most of their profits to date have come from selling hardware and how vertically integrated (capital intensive) the business is. As FSD profits and take rate increase and get added to automotive going forward...

[GuitarStv]

Autoblog: Teslas are so expensive to repair, insurers are writing them off, which is driving up insurance for Tesla owners.

What's driving the expense to repair?  Is it the one piece frame, the electronics, or something else?

[FINate]

Autoblog: Teslas are so expensive to repair, insurers are writing them off, which is driving up insurance for Tesla owners.

What's driving the expense to repair?  Is it the one piece frame, the electronics, or something else?

Here's an interesting case of what should have been a simple fix nearly totaling a Model 3: https://www.thedrive.com/news/41493/teslas-16000-quote-for-a-700-fix-is-why-right-to-repair-matters Basically, a flange integrated into the modeled battery pack (instead of a replaceable part) that was cracked by road debris.

[GuitarStv]

Autoblog: Teslas are so expensive to repair, insurers are writing them off, which is driving up insurance for Tesla owners.

What's driving the expense to repair?  Is it the one piece frame, the electronics, or something else?

Here's an interesting case of what should have been a simple fix nearly totaling a Model 3: https://www.thedrive.com/news/41493/teslas-16000-quote-for-a-700-fix-is-why-right-to-repair-matters Basically, a flange integrated into the modeled battery pack (instead of a replaceable part) that was cracked by road debris.

Yikes!  So are most of these problems caused by poor engineering then?

[FINate]

Autoblog: Teslas are so expensive to repair, insurers are writing them off, which is driving up insurance for Tesla owners.

What's driving the expense to repair?  Is it the one piece frame, the electronics, or something else?

Here's an interesting case of what should have been a simple fix nearly totaling a Model 3: https://www.thedrive.com/news/41493/teslas-16000-quote-for-a-700-fix-is-why-right-to-repair-matters Basically, a flange integrated into the modeled battery pack (instead of a replaceable part) that was cracked by road debris.

Yikes!  So are most of these problems caused by poor engineering then?

I don't know if it's most, though clearly some people have had problems that seem related to poor engineering. I've been digging around online about this topic and a common theme is that it can be difficult to get Tesla parts, and there isn't a robust third-party repair network because repair manuals are essentially non-existent, and Tesla Service tends to focus on replacing entire assemblies rather than individual parts. This can become a big issue once the vehicle is out of warranty. Jason at Engineering Explained is a Model 3 owner, which he really likes, but describes how he's had difficulty getting certain parts here: https://youtu.be/A1M2OvvNT5U?t=310 He's clearly not a Tesla hater, but has a valid point that other automakers are a lot better about getting parts to customers.

[FINate]

Here's a good summary of Tesla repair issues from Vox: https://www.vox.com/recode/23318725/tesla-repair-mechanic-delay-electric-vehicles-ev

Anecdotally, this's guy's experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR4CFiuR3tQ

[Must_ache]

I bought 100 shares earlier this week (yes!!) and probably have some more of it buried in S&P funds.  But for picking individual stocks I generally don't allow myself to buy more than about 1% of my total net worth in any one stock.  I don't need that kind of risk.

That sounds very sensible!

It does.  Once in a while I piece together my top holdings to see what I actually own.  If you stay within Nasdaq and S&P 500 funds you can have a crap ton of AAPL and MSFT and I just thought it was too much.

5.7% Cash
5.3% Treasuries <1yr & I-Bonds
3.1% Chubb (my employer)
2.5% Exxon Mobil
2.4% Apple
2.3% Chevron
2.3% Microsoft
1.9% Tesla
1.7% Silver
1.4% Gold
1.0% Amazon
0.9% United Health
0.8% British Petroleum
0.8% Travelers
0.8% Valero

I'm a bit energy heavy right now, but that looks good to me.

[ColoradoTribe]

Here's a good summary of Tesla repair issues from Vox: https://www.vox.com/recode/23318725/tesla-repair-mechanic-delay-electric-vehicles-ev

Anecdotally, this's guy's experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR4CFiuR3tQ

Every car company has issues. Lacking from this article is any real data comparing rate of repairs across brands. Lots of concerns and anecdotes mostly.

In contrast, Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction across all brands in 2022. It’s hard to believe Tesla can both have significant issues with service/repairs AND be number 1 in the industry in customer satisfaction.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

“Concerns” about Tesla build quality have been pushed since the beginning and Tesla keeps chugging along, growing 50% YOY. Elon has acknowledged the need for more service techs to keep pace with the growth and it’s my understanding that it is improving.

[bacchi]

Here's a good summary of Tesla repair issues from Vox: https://www.vox.com/recode/23318725/tesla-repair-mechanic-delay-electric-vehicles-ev

Anecdotally, this's guy's experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR4CFiuR3tQ

Every car company has issues. Lacking from this article is any real data comparing rate of repairs across brands. Lots of concerns and anecdotes mostly.

In contrast, Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction across all brands in 2022. It’s hard to believe Tesla can both have significant issues with service/repairs AND be number 1 in the industry in customer satisfaction.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

Well, Land Rover is #2 so a brand can have high customer satisfaction and be a POS.

A comment from that article,

They [Land Rover] come last in reliability polls, but their owners love having them. I don't get it but I guess there are people that enjoy having their crankshaft on the kitchen table and being forced to uber every now and then. But you have to admit, Landys have a unique charm about them, and that suspension off road is soooo good. Just sucks having to walk back home though.

Lol.


Eta:

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

[ColoradoTribe]

Here's a good summary of Tesla repair issues from Vox: https://www.vox.com/recode/23318725/tesla-repair-mechanic-delay-electric-vehicles-ev

Anecdotally, this's guy's experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR4CFiuR3tQ

Every car company has issues. Lacking from this article is any real data comparing rate of repairs across brands. Lots of concerns and anecdotes mostly.

In contrast, Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction across all brands in 2022. It’s hard to believe Tesla can both have significant issues with service/repairs AND be number 1 in the industry in customer satisfaction.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

Well, Land Rover is #2 so a brand can have high customer satisfaction and be a POS.

A comment from that article,

They [Land Rover] come last in reliability polls, but their owners love having them. I don't get it but I guess there are people that enjoy having their crankshaft on the kitchen table and being forced to uber every now and then. But you have to admit, Landys have a unique charm about them, and that suspension off road is soooo good. Just sucks having to walk back home though.

Lol.


Eta:

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

So, you cherry-picked the only list of top brands/vehicles on the site that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot. Can you provide the methodology used to come up with the one list that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot?

As for the Range Rover distraction, I never doubted for a second you’d find a way to discard any data that runs counter to your deeply held “concerns” about Tesla.

[bacchi]

Here's a good summary of Tesla repair issues from Vox: https://www.vox.com/recode/23318725/tesla-repair-mechanic-delay-electric-vehicles-ev

Anecdotally, this's guy's experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR4CFiuR3tQ

Every car company has issues. Lacking from this article is any real data comparing rate of repairs across brands. Lots of concerns and anecdotes mostly.

In contrast, Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction across all brands in 2022. It’s hard to believe Tesla can both have significant issues with service/repairs AND be number 1 in the industry in customer satisfaction.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

Well, Land Rover is #2 so a brand can have high customer satisfaction and be a POS.

A comment from that article,

They [Land Rover] come last in reliability polls, but their owners love having them. I don't get it but I guess there are people that enjoy having their crankshaft on the kitchen table and being forced to uber every now and then. But you have to admit, Landys have a unique charm about them, and that suspension off road is soooo good. Just sucks having to walk back home though.

Lol.


Eta:

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

So, you cherry-picked the only list of top brands/vehicles on the site that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot. Can you provide the methodology used to come up with the one list that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot?

US is the top selling country/region for Tesla (China is #2). I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention the US rankings from the same survey so I brought it up.

As for the methodology, it's explained on the site that electrek.co references. You're the one that posted it. Do you not trust it now?

As for the Range Rover distraction, I never doubted for a second you’d find a way to discard any data that runs counter to your deeply held “concerns” about Tesla.

Dude, the ranking you posted is garbage. It's about customer satisfaction and says nothing about reliability. That's why Land Rover being #2 is important because, though its owners are happy with it, reliability is shit.

That doesn't mean that Tesla has poor quality. Its owners can be very happy with the car and it can have high quality. What you posted, however, doesn't support that assertion. Find something else to prove reliability.

Finally, stop taking things so personally. I'm not pissing in your Cheerios and I didn't steal your dog.

[Niceday]

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

The name of that list is America’s Top Selling Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings. It just means that the top selling cars in quantity in U.S. are ICE. U.S. is slow in moving to EV's. So out of the top selling cars in the U.S., which ones are the top 10 highest rated? That's why Tesla is not on the list.

There are other top10 lists in the same article but you chose not to list them. Here they are:

The Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings: Tesla Model 3
The Brands with the Highest Owner Ratings: Tesla
Europe’s Top Selling Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings: Tesla Model 3

I assume you're a good person and just had a misunderstanding of the article.

[bacchi]

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

The name of that list is America’s Top Selling Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings. It just means that the top selling cars in quantity in U.S. are ICE. U.S. is slow in moving to EV's. So out of the top selling cars in the U.S., which ones are the top 10 highest rated? That's why Tesla is not on the list.

I thought that too but the 4Runner (#9) sold 121,000 in 2022, the CX-5 sold 151k**, and the Model 3 sold 240k.*** The Forester (#10) sold 114k.

The methodology may otherwise be wonky but Tesla missing is not because of lower sales than some of the other models.


* https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/4runner
** https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/mazda/cx-5
*** https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/tesla/model-3

[Niceday]

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

The name of that list is America’s Top Selling Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings. It just means that the top selling cars in quantity in U.S. are ICE. U.S. is slow in moving to EV's. So out of the top selling cars in the U.S., which ones are the top 10 highest rated? That's why Tesla is not on the list.

I thought that too but the 4Runner (#9) sold 121,000 in 2022, the CX-5 sold 151k**, and the Model 3 sold 240k.*** The Forester (#10) sold 114k.

The methodology may otherwise be wonky but Tesla missing is not because of lower sales than some of the other models.


* https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/4runner
** https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/mazda/cx-5
*** https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/tesla/model-3

Ok, then something is not right. If Tesla quality is so bad, then Tesla wouldn't rank 1st on Europe’s Top Selling Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings list.  There are 1-off issues that got blown out of proportions. I have a Tesla and I know many many happy Tesla customers. Many families have more than 1 Tesla cars. They probably wouldn't have bought another Tesla if the first one is crap.

Only the author of that article can tell us how he or she came up with that list.

[FINate]

Consumer Reports is a reliable source, yes? Results from their 2023 reliability report (a news article, not the actual report due to pay wall): https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2022/11/15/reliability-cars-consumer-reports-ranking/10703135002/

Models from Tesla Motors, which leads the market in EV sales, continue to have issues with body hardware, steering and suspension, paint and trim and climate system. The Model 3 has average reliability, while other Tesla models – including the S, Y and X – are below average.

If I were to buy a Tesla it would be a Model 3. However, at around $50k it should have better than average reliability. This is also one of the reasons I'll never buy a Land Rover, too much money for a vehicle with lots of problems. Furthermore, Tesla's opposition to right to repair is a big issue to me, which is why I stopped buying Apple products and installed Linux on my perfectly functional but out of support iMac.

[FINate]

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

The name of that list is America’s Top Selling Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings. It just means that the top selling cars in quantity in U.S. are ICE. U.S. is slow in moving to EV's. So out of the top selling cars in the U.S., which ones are the top 10 highest rated? That's why Tesla is not on the list.

I thought that too but the 4Runner (#9) sold 121,000 in 2022, the CX-5 sold 151k**, and the Model 3 sold 240k.*** The Forester (#10) sold 114k.

The methodology may otherwise be wonky but Tesla missing is not because of lower sales than some of the other models.


* https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/4runner
** https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/mazda/cx-5
*** https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/tesla/model-3

Ok, then something is not right. If Tesla quality is so bad, then Tesla wouldn't rank 1st on Europe’s Top Selling Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings list.  There are 1-off issues that got blown out of proportions. I have a Tesla and I know many many happy Tesla customers. Many families have more than 1 Tesla cars. They probably wouldn't have bought another Tesla if the first one is crap.

Only the author of that article can tell us how he or she came up with that list.

That's not how the automotive market works. Some people prioritize reliability, many don't. The best tech doesn't always win, nor does best range or cost of ownership, etc. Brand, styling, functionality, etc. are often more important to consumers. Pickup trucks have the worst reliability but people keep buying them regardless, because they do things other vehicles can't, and because some people just like them for whatever reason. This is why I continue to think that Musk's recent antics are such a big deal long-term.

[Niceday]

Consumer Reports is a reliable source, yes? Results from their 2023 reliability report (a news article, not the actual report due to pay wall): https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2022/11/15/reliability-cars-consumer-reports-ranking/10703135002/

Models from Tesla Motors, which leads the market in EV sales, continue to have issues with body hardware, steering and suspension, paint and trim and climate system. The Model 3 has average reliability, while other Tesla models – including the S, Y and X – are below average.

If I were to buy a Tesla it would be a Model 3. However, at around $50k it should have better than average reliability. This is also one of the reasons I'll never buy a Land Rover, too much money for a vehicle with lots of problems. Furthermore, Tesla's opposition to right to repair is a big issue to me, which is why I stopped buying Apple products and installed Linux on my perfectly functional but out of support iMac.

You can google "Consumer Reports is biased" to examine their reliability.
To get a true sense of user happiness, I'd go to car review sites such as Edmunds, KBB, etc and look at real user reviews.  I'd bet that you'd see the majority of Tesla customers are happy.

btw, a Tesla Model 3 is $43990 minus $7500 tax credit if qualified = $36490. They are selling like hotcakes. Not that I'm trying to convince you to get one :)

[FINate]

Consumer Reports is a reliable source, yes? Results from their 2023 reliability report (a news article, not the actual report due to pay wall): https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2022/11/15/reliability-cars-consumer-reports-ranking/10703135002/

Models from Tesla Motors, which leads the market in EV sales, continue to have issues with body hardware, steering and suspension, paint and trim and climate system. The Model 3 has average reliability, while other Tesla models – including the S, Y and X – are below average.

If I were to buy a Tesla it would be a Model 3. However, at around $50k it should have better than average reliability. This is also one of the reasons I'll never buy a Land Rover, too much money for a vehicle with lots of problems. Furthermore, Tesla's opposition to right to repair is a big issue to me, which is why I stopped buying Apple products and installed Linux on my perfectly functional but out of support iMac.

You can google "Consumer Reports is biased" to examine their reliability.
To get a true sense of user happiness, I'd go to car review sites such as Edmunds, KBB, etc and look at real user reviews.  I'd bet that you'd see the majority of Tesla customers are happy.

btw, a Tesla Model 3 is $43990 minus $7500 tax credit if qualified = $36490. They are selling like hotcakes. Not that I'm trying to convince you to get one :)

Media Bias / Fact Check lists Consumer Reports as Least Biased and High Factuality - https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/consumer-reports/

As already mentioned above, user reviews and user satisfaction isn't the same thing as reliability ratings.

[PDXTabs]

btw, a Tesla Model 3 is $43990 minus $7500 tax credit if qualified = $36490.

Serious question: Let's say that hypothetically I qualify for the tax credit and tomorrow I go and buy a Model 3. When do I get the tax credit money? 13 months from now?

[maizefolk]

btw, a Tesla Model 3 is $43990 minus $7500 tax credit if qualified = $36490.

Serious question: Let's say that hypothetically I qualify for the tax credit and tomorrow I go and buy a Model 3. When do I get the tax credit money? 13 months from now?

Right now, yeah. Although you could probably play some optimization games with your tax withholding to get most of it faster. instead of waiting until you file your 2023 taxes.

In my understanding is that in 2024 the tax credit shifts to be a dealer rebate at the point of sale. But depending on how the US sourcing rules play out for the minerals in batteries a lot of this be ultimately be moot.

[bacchi]

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

The name of that list is America’s Top Selling Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings. It just means that the top selling cars in quantity in U.S. are ICE. U.S. is slow in moving to EV's. So out of the top selling cars in the U.S., which ones are the top 10 highest rated? That's why Tesla is not on the list.

I thought that too but the 4Runner (#9) sold 121,000 in 2022, the CX-5 sold 151k**, and the Model 3 sold 240k.*** The Forester (#10) sold 114k.

The methodology may otherwise be wonky but Tesla missing is not because of lower sales than some of the other models.


* https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/toyota/4runner
** https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/mazda/cx-5
*** https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/tesla/model-3

Ok, then something is not right. If Tesla quality is so bad, then Tesla wouldn't rank 1st on Europe’s Top Selling Cars with the Highest Owner Ratings list.  There are 1-off issues that got blown out of proportions. I have a Tesla and I know many many happy Tesla customers. Many families have more than 1 Tesla cars. They probably wouldn't have bought another Tesla if the first one is crap.

Only the author of that article can tell us how he or she came up with that list.

Eh, the eletrek/zutobi list doesn't mean the opposite either. It's entirely possible for a car to both be ranked high on the owner rating list and be reliable.

[FINate]

btw, a Tesla Model 3 is $43990 minus $7500 tax credit if qualified = $36490. They are selling like hotcakes. Not that I'm trying to convince you to get one :)

I'm FIRE with very low expenses (no loans or mortgage, paid off house) and low income since I only pull out what I need. The EV tax credit is not refundable and therefor useless to me. I'd rather buy an EV that's *not* eligible for the credit because this encourages the manufacturer to compete on top-line price.

[ColoradoTribe]

Consumer Reports is a reliable source, yes? Results from their 2023 reliability report (a news article, not the actual report due to pay wall): https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2022/11/15/reliability-cars-consumer-reports-ranking/10703135002/

Models from Tesla Motors, which leads the market in EV sales, continue to have issues with body hardware, steering and suspension, paint and trim and climate system. The Model 3 has average reliability, while other Tesla models – including the S, Y and X – are below average.

If I were to buy a Tesla it would be a Model 3. However, at around $50k it should have better than average reliability. This is also one of the reasons I'll never buy a Land Rover, too much money for a vehicle with lots of problems. Furthermore, Tesla's opposition to right to repair is a big issue to me, which is why I stopped buying Apple products and installed Linux on my perfectly functional but out of support iMac.

Here’s the thing. No one is trying to convince you to buy a Tesla vehicle or Tesla stock. I personally don’t find the need to go around the internet negatively commenting at length about products or stocks I’m not looking to buy.

As for Consumer Reports, I would consider them a credible organization. Looking at the survey methodology, I’d say its far from scientifically rigorous. Per CR, a car can be ranked with as few as 100 respondents (average 250 per vehicle). For Tesla Model Y, that would be out of a population ~500k (US sales) or a sample size of 0.02% - 0.04% The surveys are only sent to US Consumer Report members, which is a very unique subset population or car owners. It’s less likely that folks with no issues will be inclined to respond. Lastly, the 17 areas of reliability range from issues with transmissions to issues with audio systems and trim. And while the goal should be no issues, CR is not providing a breakdown of the issues being reported by category for each vehicle, which I find interesting.

All that to say, I don’t completely disregard the CR findings, but given the methodology, self-selecting participants, and the huge range of issues (in terms of seriousness) being evaluated (and not disclosed), it makes it hard to put much weight to the findings. I give more weight to the customer satisfaction survey results. It's a more straight forward metric. I may have a simple issue with the audio system that was quickly repaired and still be a very satisfied customer despite the issue. The CR reliability survey would only capture that there was an issue without providing a breakdown by category or if it was resolved satisfactorily.

[ColoradoTribe]

Here's a good summary of Tesla repair issues from Vox: https://www.vox.com/recode/23318725/tesla-repair-mechanic-delay-electric-vehicles-ev

Anecdotally, this's guy's experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR4CFiuR3tQ

Every car company has issues. Lacking from this article is any real data comparing rate of repairs across brands. Lots of concerns and anecdotes mostly.

In contrast, Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction across all brands in 2022. It’s hard to believe Tesla can both have significant issues with service/repairs AND be number 1 in the industry in customer satisfaction.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

Well, Land Rover is #2 so a brand can have high customer satisfaction and be a POS.

A comment from that article,

They [Land Rover] come last in reliability polls, but their owners love having them. I don't get it but I guess there are people that enjoy having their crankshaft on the kitchen table and being forced to uber every now and then. But you have to admit, Landys have a unique charm about them, and that suspension off road is soooo good. Just sucks having to walk back home though.

Lol.


Eta:

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

So, you cherry-picked the only list of top brands/vehicles on the site that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot. Can you provide the methodology used to come up with the one list that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot?

US is the top selling country/region for Tesla (China is #2). I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention the US rankings from the same survey so I brought it up.

As for the methodology, it's explained on the site that electrek.co references. You're the one that posted it. Do you not trust it now?

As for the Range Rover distraction, I never doubted for a second you’d find a way to discard any data that runs counter to your deeply held “concerns” about Tesla.

Dude, the ranking you posted is garbage. It's about customer satisfaction and says nothing about reliability. That's why Land Rover being #2 is important because, though its owners are happy with it, reliability is shit.

That doesn't mean that Tesla has poor quality. Its owners can be very happy with the car and it can have high quality. What you posted, however, doesn't support that assertion. Find something else to prove reliability.

Finally, stop taking things so personally. I'm not pissing in your Cheerios and I didn't steal your dog.

How’d you know someone stole my dog?

[mistymoney]

Here's a good summary of Tesla repair issues from Vox: https://www.vox.com/recode/23318725/tesla-repair-mechanic-delay-electric-vehicles-ev

Anecdotally, this's guy's experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR4CFiuR3tQ

Every car company has issues. Lacking from this article is any real data comparing rate of repairs across brands. Lots of concerns and anecdotes mostly.

In contrast, Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction across all brands in 2022. It’s hard to believe Tesla can both have significant issues with service/repairs AND be number 1 in the industry in customer satisfaction.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

Well, Land Rover is #2 so a brand can have high customer satisfaction and be a POS.

A comment from that article,

They [Land Rover] come last in reliability polls, but their owners love having them. I don't get it but I guess there are people that enjoy having their crankshaft on the kitchen table and being forced to uber every now and then. But you have to admit, Landys have a unique charm about them, and that suspension off road is soooo good. Just sucks having to walk back home though.

Lol.


Eta:

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

So, you cherry-picked the only list of top brands/vehicles on the site that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot. Can you provide the methodology used to come up with the one list that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot?

US is the top selling country/region for Tesla (China is #2). I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention the US rankings from the same survey so I brought it up.

As for the methodology, it's explained on the site that electrek.co references. You're the one that posted it. Do you not trust it now?

As for the Range Rover distraction, I never doubted for a second you’d find a way to discard any data that runs counter to your deeply held “concerns” about Tesla.

Dude, the ranking you posted is garbage. It's about customer satisfaction and says nothing about reliability. That's why Land Rover being #2 is important because, though its owners are happy with it, reliability is shit.

That doesn't mean that Tesla has poor quality. Its owners can be very happy with the car and it can have high quality. What you posted, however, doesn't support that assertion. Find something else to prove reliability.

Finally, stop taking things so personally. I'm not pissing in your Cheerios and I didn't steal your dog.

How’d you know someone stole my dog?

Put down the spoon!!!!!!

[ChpBstrd]

Here's a good summary of Tesla repair issues from Vox: https://www.vox.com/recode/23318725/tesla-repair-mechanic-delay-electric-vehicles-ev

Anecdotally, this's guy's experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR4CFiuR3tQ

Every car company has issues. Lacking from this article is any real data comparing rate of repairs across brands. Lots of concerns and anecdotes mostly.

In contrast, Tesla has the highest customer satisfaction across all brands in 2022. It’s hard to believe Tesla can both have significant issues with service/repairs AND be number 1 in the industry in customer satisfaction.

https://electrek.co/2022/06/15/tesla-tops-list-most-satisfied-customers-entire-auto-industry/

Well, Land Rover is #2 so a brand can have high customer satisfaction and be a POS.

A comment from that article,

They [Land Rover] come last in reliability polls, but their owners love having them. I don't get it but I guess there are people that enjoy having their crankshaft on the kitchen table and being forced to uber every now and then. But you have to admit, Landys have a unique charm about them, and that suspension off road is soooo good. Just sucks having to walk back home though.

Lol.


Eta:

The US ratings don't have Tesla in the Top 10.

https://zutobi.com/us/driver-guides/global-happy-motorist-index

1) Corolla
2) CX-5
3) Tucson
4) F-150
5) Wrangler

Not that I'd consider Jeep a reliable brand either but they are fun.

Is this a Fremont vs Shanghai issue?

So, you cherry-picked the only list of top brands/vehicles on the site that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot. Can you provide the methodology used to come up with the one list that didn’t have Tesla in the top spot?

US is the top selling country/region for Tesla (China is #2). I'm kinda surprised you didn't mention the US rankings from the same survey so I brought it up.

As for the methodology, it's explained on the site that electrek.co references. You're the one that posted it. Do you not trust it now?

As for the Range Rover distraction, I never doubted for a second you’d find a way to discard any data that runs counter to your deeply held “concerns” about Tesla.

Dude, the ranking you posted is garbage. It's about customer satisfaction and says nothing about reliability. That's why Land Rover being #2 is important because, though its owners are happy with it, reliability is shit.

That doesn't mean that Tesla has poor quality. Its owners can be very happy with the car and it can have high quality. What you posted, however, doesn't support that assertion. Find something else to prove reliability.

Finally, stop taking things so personally. I'm not pissing in your Cheerios and I didn't steal your dog.

How’d you know someone stole my dog?

Put down the spoon!!!!!!

Tesla built a better spoon?

[FINate]

Here’s the thing. No one is trying to convince you to buy a Tesla vehicle or Tesla stock.

No worries, I don't find anything here very convincing :) Also, I'm not trying to convince you NOT to buy anything, but...

I personally don’t find the need to go around the internet negatively commenting at length about products or stocks I’m not looking to buy.

That's strange. I thought we were here to have an actual discussion about Tesla, not host a fan club meeting.

As for Consumer Reports, I would consider them a credible organization. Looking at the survey methodology, I’d say its far from scientifically rigorous. Per CR, a car can be ranked with as few as 100 respondents (average 250 per vehicle). For Tesla Model Y, that would be out of a population ~500k (US sales) or a sample size of 0.02% - 0.04% The surveys are only sent to US Consumer Report members, which is a very unique subset population or car owners. It’s less likely that folks with no issues will be inclined to respond. Lastly, the 17 areas of reliability range from issues with transmissions to issues with audio systems and trim. And while the goal should be no issues, CR is not providing a breakdown of the issues being reported by category for each vehicle, which I find interesting.

All that to say, I don’t completely disregard the CR findings, but given the methodology, self-selecting participants, and the huge range of issues (in terms of seriousness) being evaluated (and not disclosed), it makes it hard to put much weight to the findings. I give more weight to the customer satisfaction survey results. It's a more straight forward metric. I may have a simple issue with the audio system that was quickly repaired and still be a very satisfied customer despite the issue. The CR reliability survey would only capture that there was an issue without providing a breakdown by category or if it was resolved satisfactorily.

I've used CR reliability ratings for decades and have found them accurate overall. Toyota usually ranks near the top. Our 14 year old Toyota, which we bought new, has around 120k miles. Other than routine scheduled maintenance we have only ever had ONE repair to the car when the alternator was failing. Not a single feature of the car has ever had an issue. No door handle issues. No suspension issues. No rattles. No moon roof issues. No leaks. No failing sensors. No paint issues (other than the scratches/dings we caused). Literally nothing has broken or failed. And we aren't very kind to our vehicles, they live outside in the elements. That's reliability. When I hear/read about some of the issues Tesla owners deal with, I think "no thanks." To be clear, this isn't unique to Tesla as other brands also have issues, it's just that I'm not interested in owning a vehicle that has lots of issues big or small. Been there, done that. Fortunately we aren't in the market for a new vehicle for at least a few years, so we'll wait until more EV models hit the market and some of the EV specific issues are worked out.