Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America

[Financial.Velociraptor]

...It was not my choice...

IMO, this is the crux of your problem.  Malcat has properly labeled you as having an 'external locus'.  You feel like FIRE happened TO you instead of BY you.  (Your choices have actually been very deterministic and you are not cork adrift in the ocean with no power to set your course.)  Examine every area of your life and determine if you feel like things are happening TO you instead of FOR you.  One is a healthy attitude.  The other is certain to make you and keep you miserable. 

GOOD NEWS. You CAN willfully change to an internal locus of control.  Recommend reading up on Stoicism.  E.g. you can't control you got let go from your job - you can control how your react to that emotionally.  Plus, meditation and emotional/psych counseling.  You can't see it yet but you have made a choice to be sort of miserable.  You can choose to be happy, delighted even.  And you can choose to do something fulfilling. 

[Villanelle]

Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

I have reached a level long ago where I could hire it all out and I do have staff that helps me. By mowing lawns myself I could save $1200 each day. By painting a house myself or with a crew I can save perhaps $1800 per day. I am too frugal to leave that on the table.

The bottom line is that I spend my day doing manual labor when I cold have been a professional. I went to college to escape drudgery and sunburn but ended up there anyway. It seems that the achievement of some sort of professional standard prior to FIRE is a benefit to satisfying one’s sense of professional accomplishment. 

I never got that. I am financially much better off than had I spent my days in a suit but still do the same basic work functions I did straight out of high school. It is not very satisfying. I wish I had achieved some sort of professional success prior to FIRE.

Well, we have ascertained that FIRE is definitely NOT the cause of your unhappiness.  Because you have never been FIREd.  You went from your corporate job to your manual labor job.   You were working, whether because you needed the  money or because you were too frugal not to.  That isn't FIRE.

In your shoes, I'd likely spend great deal of time trying to figure out what I want out of life, and what would truly make me happy.  If you can't forgo $1200 of money you say you have no need for in order to make yourself happy, that's not healthy.  That's not frugal; it is cheap.  And if you do need (or want to have the things you buy with) that money, then find a different job to make $1200, and then hire out the lawn moving.

As far as spending your days doing manual labor when you could have been a professional, that statement sound to me like a mid-life crisis, which would explain the unhappiness.  Again, this is worth addressing with lots of self-reflection and with counseling if needed. 

And I'd also think on why it is you think corporate work is so superior to manual work. 

[ysette9]

FI is great. RE not so much.

So what you are saying is having the ability financially to do whatever calls to you in life is great. But actually spending your time doing what you find meaningful is not.

?

Can you see how this might not make sense to someone looking in from the outside?

I think you have stumbled upon two issues. 1) Leaving a job on your own terms is so different than being given the boot mentally. I was laid off from a job I was strongly considering quitting and it was hard on my ego because they made the decision , not me. Even though the end result was that I wasn’t working a job I didn’t want to work AND I got unemployment by being laid off. I wish you luck finding a way to work through this because as others keep saying, you are hung up on this point and it is making you unhappy.

2) once FIREd you have to face the tough job of figuring out who you are and what you want to do with your life. It is sort of scary and can be hard. Dr Doom wrote about his struggle quitting and the emotional work he had to do to get comfortable with pulling the trigger on his job. (Blog is livingAFI and the series is called The Quit Series). It is reasonable to flounder here but I don’t think the answer is necessarily to just avoid soul searching by going back to work.

If there is some burning goal you want to achieve that happens to be at work, then do it so you can scratch that itch. We are saying that for most of us we find more meaning and freedom exploring the entire world out there than just what is available within four cubicle walls.

We aren’t generally happy sitting around and recreating and if you think that is what FIRE is then I respectfully submit that you have it wrong.

[Skyhigh]

Sorry, My part-time job ended up becoming a two-day event.

[Skyhigh]

I am here to claim that I am an expert at FIRE. I come from a long family history that commonly attains Financial Independence and Retires Early. My grandfathers and great-grandfathers for many generations back all retired by 45. Most thought financial accomplishment, but others by giving up on life. My wife’s family has a similar tradition through job-related injury and SSI benefits. Some of the wives continued to work but none of the men past 45 years of age for over 150 years on both sides of my family.

As such, I believe that I understand what happens after FIRE and I am here to share that much of it is not good. My father had a brilliant career in the space program until one day at 45 years of age he just quit. My parents had accumulated a nice portfolio of rental properties and financial investments so that he did not have to get up early and drive to work anymore. After a hard day at the office, he handed in his resignation and never worked a day ever again. He went from being a leader in the space program to taking up space and it is my belief that nature noticed.

After FIRE my father didn’t climb Mt. Everest or do anything else of significance ever again for that matter. He sat at home entertaining himself with meaningless pursuits and began a rapid decay process that concluded in his early death. He was a living corpse that was no benefit to himself or anyone else. It is as if he was recognized as an inert organism by life and expunged by design. When my father-in-law reached a similar age he just sat down like an old mule one day and did not return to work for reasons only known to him. He had no signs of a malady, he just lost all motivation and drive and stopped. After a few years, cancer came and he expired soon after.

The concept of retirement is a recent one in human history. In the later 1800s, Germany was trying to create an economic stimulus to help the mass of unemployed youth and determined that it was better to send the money to the aged as a motivation to stay home. This way two generations were benefited through one stimulus package. The young got jobs and the old got to stay home, and thus, the concept of retirement was born. Before that humans commonly worked until they were dead.

I believe that it is unhealthy and unnatural for people to retire. I have seen the results in my own family and watched as peers and clients follow a similar trajectory. Most leave productive life with grand declarations of what they would use the time for but it never seems to go as planned. Children who grow up in FIRE families associate with the same tradition. They unknowingly tend to deactivate in a similar manner. Without an example of an active life, in later years they unknowingly are programmed by example to follow the same path whether they have the means or not. Small children who grow up with stay-at-home parents may never develop the drive to do anything since all they have known as an example of adulthood is parents who sleep-in, ride mountain bikes, and teach homeschool. How are they supposed to acclimate to a professional life?

My DNA programmed me to FIRE. I know how to do it at an instinctual level. I never intended my FIRE to become permanent after being laid off yet here I am. At the time it was the only path I had to provide for my family. My aim is to change that tradition. I don’t want my kids or grandkids to see inert or underemployed adults in their later years. My goal is to remain vital and productive until the end. It might be through mowing lawns or filling boxes at Costco, however, I would rather it be involved in a meaningful career that engages me to my highest and best use.

Apart from that, I am an expert at FIRE. I know how to get there and have a lot of information to share. I realize that my message cuts against the grain of many here however I believe that my perspective has value. This is a forum where ideas are meant to be shared. Mine are very different and worthy of attention.

[boarder42]

Misery loves company i guess you can find that in your family - here you haven't found the company you seek.  Maybe a new blog should be started called consume til you die and you can find the culture you seek.

[Skyhigh]

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise.  I have a lot of experience with FIRE.

[boarder42]

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise.  I have a lot of experience with FIRE.

dont show them this thread

[Skyhigh]

Misery loves company i guess you can find that in your family - here you haven't found the company you seek.  Maybe a new blog should be started called consume til you die and you can find the culture you seek.

In my opinion, a forum is meant as an exchange of differing ideas as a means of advancing a collective understanding of the subject. If you only want your own pre-conceived ideas repeated back to you you could talk to yourself in the mirror.

[Skyhigh]

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise.  I have a lot of experience with FIRE.

dont show them this thread

My clients understand my views. As I previously mentioned I like the financial independence part.

'Strive to provide enough so that they can do something with their lives, but not enough so that they can afford to do nothing." - Unknown

[boarder42]

you trying to drum up business with this nonsense on these forums?

[Metalcat]

Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

[Skyhigh]

Imagine being a kid who grows up in a family where both parents can afford to stay at home unemployed. You were not there to see how they did it. Your consciousness materialized after they were retired. To you, adult life means sleeping in, trips to Maui, and walks in the park. No discussion of what happened at work, or lesson on how to get ahead in the office. No example of what an employed life looks like.

How is a child from that environment supposed to develop the work ethic needed to attain a position of FIRE? Parents in that situation had better plan for their own retirement and then provide for their children's retirement as well.

[Skyhigh]

Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting. 

[boarder42]

Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

uhh dude you're the outlier in these forums. I do not understand how you can't see that.

Comparing a lottery winner to a person who has the intellectual understanding, self control, and forsight to even learn about and get to FIRE through working and saving shows just how NOT AN EXPERT you are on what you claim to be. 

Normally people who shout I'm an EXPERT at anything from the rooftops should be heavily avoided for that topic.  Maybe tone down your EGO and go re read all the posts on this thread.  I bet  you still have not read Malcat's post as you say you want to learn more about them yet they have been a very large open book all over these forums including the book they wrote for you here in this thread.

[Metalcat]

Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

It doesn't matter if I'm an outlier.

If the majority of people approach something wrong, that doesn't make them experts in doing that thing, it makes the experts rare.

I was an expert in a specific area of medicine that few people understand. My colleagues weren't experts because they failed to do it well, I was the expert because I was the outlier.

Experts are often outliers.

You are unhappy and living a life that you generally describe as miserable. How on earth do you purport to be an expert?

It sounds like you have been rather financially successful in real estate, you might be able to claim to be an expert in that, and probably have a lot of wisdom to share, which is why I gave you advice in your other thread as to how to frame your knowledge in a more accessible way.

As I said, you are ABSOLUTELY an expert at throwing away opportunities to be happy and making excuses for why you can't do things that so, so, so many other people can.

You could just write me off as an "outlier" or you could take an interest as to why I'm able to be happy despite having a much, much more difficult life than you do. Because what I do differently from you is all LEARNABLE.

So you can either take an interest in how to improve your absolutely miserable state, or you can just keep looking for ways to reject any possibility that it could be improved.

Why you would WANT to stay miserable is beyond me though.

[Skyhigh]

Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

uhh dude you're the outlier in these forums. I do not understand how you can't see that.

Comparing a lottery winner to a person who has the intellectual understanding, self control, and forsight to even learn about and get to FIRE through working and saving shows just how NOT AN EXPERT you are on what you claim to be. 

Normally people who shout I'm an EXPERT at anything from the rooftops should be heavily avoided for that topic.  Maybe tone down your EGO and go re read all the posts on this thread.  I bet  you still have not read Malcat's post as you say you want to learn more about them yet they have been a very large open book all over these forums including the book they wrote for you here in this thread.

Forums like this are commonly populated with wannabes and the aspirational. Those who have achieved the goal tend to move on to other things. I expect to be the outlier.

[Metalcat]

Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

uhh dude you're the outlier in these forums. I do not understand how you can't see that.

Comparing a lottery winner to a person who has the intellectual understanding, self control, and forsight to even learn about and get to FIRE through working and saving shows just how NOT AN EXPERT you are on what you claim to be. 

Normally people who shout I'm an EXPERT at anything from the rooftops should be heavily avoided for that topic.  Maybe tone down your EGO and go re read all the posts on this thread.  I bet  you still have not read Malcat's post as you say you want to learn more about them yet they have been a very large open book all over these forums including the book they wrote for you here in this thread.

Forums like this are commonly populated with wannabes and the aspirational. Those who have achieved the goal tend to move on to other things. I expect to be the outlier.

I think you should spend more time reading and learning here, because your assumptions are inaccurate.

Most of our most prolific posters are highly successful in our goals.

Almost every thread here is populated with people you could learn A LOT from. It's why I'm here, I learn enormous amounts, and am constantly humbled by the level of actual expertise here.

Boarder42, who keeps responding to you, single handedly totally changed the way I approached debt when I was first starting here. Completely changed my life and my approach to my personal finances with one snarky, insightful post that ripped my thinking to shreds, which I, at the time, thought was very, very smart.

The reason everyone keeps disagreeing with you is because you might, just maybe, just possibly, be totally wrong about the audience you are speaking to.

[Skyhigh]

Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

It doesn't matter if I'm an outlier.

If the majority of people approach something wrong, that doesn't make them experts in doing that thing, it makes the experts rare.

I was an expert in a specific area of medicine that few people understand. My colleagues weren't experts because they failed to do it well, I was the expert because I was the outlier.

Experts are often outliers.

You are unhappy and living a life that you generally describe as miserable. How on earth do you purport to be an expert?

It sounds like you have been rather financially successful in real estate, you might be able to claim to be an expert in that, and probably have a lot of wisdom to share, which is why I gave you advice in your other thread as to how to frame your knowledge in a more accessible way.

As I said, you are ABSOLUTELY an expert at throwing away opportunities to be happy and making excuses for why you can't do things that so, so, so many other people can.

You could just write me off as an "outlier" or you could take an interest as to why I'm able to be happy despite having a much, much more difficult life than you do. Because what I do differently from you is all LEARNABLE.

So you can either take an interest in how to improve your absolutely miserable state, or you can just keep looking for ways to reject any possibility that it could be improved.

Why you would WANT to stay miserable is beyond me though.

Malcat,

I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.

As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.

[boarder42]

great job not actually reading what malcat wrote and just responding with the same jibberish.

[Metalcat]

Malcat,

I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.

As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.

You just did exactly what I suggested you not do.

And you are purposefully ignoring what I'm saying.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness. 

[Skyhigh]

@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.

[Moustachienne]

The OP's point of view reminds me of the slave in Norsemen who puts up with horrible degrading treatment by his Viking masters despite having actually been freed some years before.  His explanation? "I need the structure". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series)
"Øystein Martinsen as Kark, a freed slave who has voluntarily returned to his life as a slave after being institutionalized. "

[Skyhigh]

Malcat,

I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.

As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.

You just did exactly what I suggested you not do.

And you are purposefully ignoring what I'm saying.

I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.

[Moustachienne]

Doesn't sound like experience with ER as much as experience with purpose free living...

@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.

[boarder42]

@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.

you have anecdotal experiences warped by your own bias.

[Metalcat]

Malcat,

I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.

As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.

You just did exactly what I suggested you not do.

And you are purposefully ignoring what I'm saying.

I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.

You have to be successful at something to be an expert. And being absolutely miserable doesn't sound like being successful to me.

MMM is considered an expert on FIRE because the whole point is to live your best life.

I wouldn't consider a lottery winner whose life falls into misery to be an "expert" at how to live after winning the lottery either.

You may be a cautionary tale, but you are not an expert unless you have useful advice to offer. And so far, your only advice is to insist that people shouldn't FIRE.

Meanwhile, a real expert would give people tangible, actionable advice as to how to AVOID the pitfalls you have experienced.

You're not an expert because you are convinced that retiring is the problem, when it absolutely IS NOT.

Having a lot of bad experience at something does not make one an expert.

There are plenty of experts whose expertise comes out of bad experiences, but they're expertise is in how to handle those bad experiences.

Do you see the difference?

You have to be GOOD at something to be an expert. What are you claiming to be GOOD at?

[Telecaster]

I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.

I appreciate the warning, but your story is as old as the hills.  At age 38, you made the decision to pursue money instead of happiness.  Today, you have the money but no happiness.

A reoccurring theme on FIRE blogs and especially MMM is using FI to pursue happiness.  I agree, you are a cautionary tale of what happens when you do it wrong.

[Kris]

Skyhigh, have you ever been to therapy?

[boarder42]

I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.

I appreciate the warning, but your story is as old as the hills.  At age 38, you made the decision to pursue money instead of happiness.  Today, you have the money but no happiness.

A reoccurring theme on FIRE blogs and especially MMM is using FI to pursue happiness.  I agree, you are a cautionary tale of what happens when you do it wrong.

That's an excellent way to put it.  slow clap

[Fru-Gal]

Loved this!

The OP's point of view reminds me of the slave in Norsemen who puts up with horrible degrading treatment by his Viking masters despite having actually been freed some years before.  His explanation? "I need the structure". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series)
"Øystein Martinsen as Kark, a freed slave who has voluntarily returned to his life as a slave after being institutionalized. "

[Financial.Velociraptor]

@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.

@Skyhigh

Just because you don't actively practice a faith does not mean you lack a spiritual component to your personhood.  I'd like to strongly recommend studying some Carl Jung (sans the mysticism.)  You clearly have an internal dialogue that contains some elements that are toxic to you.  Some people would call that your "prayer" or "conversation with the Universe".  This is a very ancient concept that predates Christ.  You are dwelling on misery and thereby attracting more misery to yourself.  A little bit of Jungian analysis would allow you to do the very difficult work (and know you don't want to be seen as emotionally lazy) of examining and confronting your own shadow material and thus processing the trauma FIRE has clearly caused you. 

You are hurting.  It is noble you have a service mindset to protect others from experiencing your pain.  But (and an entire forum has basically been screaming this at you...) it is a misguided act of service.  Most people either are not traumatized by FIRE at all, or if they are, quickly process it in a productive way, instead of negatively dwelling on it like you have for decades.  You are very emotionally/psychologically (I say "spiritually") STUCK.  Take positive action to move your energy starting today.

[ysette9]

I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.

I appreciate the warning, but your story is as old as the hills.  At age 38, you made the decision to pursue money instead of happiness.  Today, you have the money but no happiness.

A reoccurring theme on FIRE blogs and especially MMM is using FI to pursue happiness.  I agree, you are a cautionary tale of what happens when you do it wrong.

Obligatory reference to relevant post: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/06/08/happiness-is-the-only-logical-pursuit/

[Villanelle]

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise.  I have a lot of experience with FIRE.

Wait, so you think FIRE is damaging and demoralizing, and yet you've made a business of helping people achieve it?  Isn't the hypocritical?  It's like an addiction counselor having a side hustle selling meth. 

Also, your "expertise" from family history sounds like it consists of many (or most) who ended up not working after 45 because they couldn't, not because they made an informed decision without outside factors like injury or lay off coming in to play. 

But regardless of all that, you sound like someone who will be unhappy and dissatisfied no matter your lot in life.  I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears, but I'll again suggest you do a lot of self-reflection and probably get some outside assistance to help you find a satisfying life path.  But working to help people achieve something you think is a path to misery is unlikely to ever feel satisfying or give you a sense of purpose, unless you have almost psychopathic levels of detachment and apathy. 

[LD_TAndK]

If you're surrounded by successful careerists on the high consumption bandwagon it can really feel like you're missing out on some big meaning of life thing by not fulfilling your employment & consumption potential. I can definitely sympathize with the OP's dissatisfaction.

I'd suggest shattering your world-view, try a thru-hike, live-work on a co-op, live in a "weird" place for a while, seek out people with alternative lifestyles and alternative values. These types experiences were vital for me to view career success objectively, and to find other types of life satisfaction.

[charis]

I think I figured out the disconnect.  The OP holds the majority view, that people need to work until 60 something or they'll have nothing to do and will basically fall into decline. 

He doesn't recognize that members of this particular forum have already received and rejected this message. It's a very common, unintellectual approach to work-life, and most people follow it.

[Metalcat]

I think I figured out the disconnect.  The OP holds the majority view, that people need to work until 60 something or they'll have nothing to do and will basically fall into decline. 

He doesn't recognize that members of this particular forum have already received and rejected this message. It's a very common, unintellectual approach to work-life, and most people follow it.

I really don't think that's it.

It's about identity. He felt he lost his identity when he lost his career, that's very clear. Then he's never been able to forge an identity for himself since that he's comfortable with.

It's like career dysmorphia, a sort of "this isn't who I am or who I'm supposed to be" and it's making him fucking miserable.

But instead of seeking solutions, he's raging against the perceived evil that caused it, and when he sees that evil being celebrated, he feels compelled to educate people of the evils that he thinks they're just not seeing.

He's frustrated because he feels like an expert on this matter because of his and his family's experience, and we're all either too stubborn to acknowledge the truth, or individually we're exceptions to the rule who are just failing to see it because we think we're the norm, not the exception.

This is why he doesn't even really fully read replies, he knows it's pointless, because he knows the *truth*

[Skyhigh]

@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.

@Skyhigh

Just because you don't actively practice a faith does not mean you lack a spiritual component to your personhood.  I'd like to strongly recommend studying some Carl Jung (sans the mysticism.)  You clearly have an internal dialogue that contains some elements that are toxic to you.  Some people would call that your "prayer" or "conversation with the Universe".  This is a very ancient concept that predates Christ.  You are dwelling on misery and thereby attracting more misery to yourself.  A little bit of Jungian analysis would allow you to do the very difficult work (and know you don't want to be seen as emotionally lazy) of examining and confronting your own shadow material and thus processing the trauma FIRE has clearly caused you. 

You are hurting.  It is noble you have a service mindset to protect others from experiencing your pain.  But (and an entire forum has basically been screaming this at you...) it is a misguided act of service.  Most people either are not traumatized by FIRE at all, or if they are, quickly process it in a productive way, instead of negatively dwelling on it like you have for decades.  You are very emotionally/psychologically (I say "spiritually") STUCK.  Take positive action to move your energy starting today.

F.I.,

You are a very kind and thoughtful person. I greatly appreciate your compassion and concern. I agree with your assessment that I am “hurting”, however I don’t believe that it is different from anyone else who has a dream. My goal is to strive to become my best self. A version that provides service to others through the contribution of my best abilities. I do not believe that striving to do noting with this life is a virtue. Volunteering at the soup kitchen while withholding superior skills and knowledge does not compensate.

In my experience those who intentionally leave the stream of life early are doing harm to themselves and to others around them. It is not a good example to our children nor does it help ourselves either.

[charis]

I think I figured out the disconnect.  The OP holds the majority view, that people need to work until 60 something or they'll have nothing to do and will basically fall into decline. 

He doesn't recognize that members of this particular forum have already received and rejected this message. It's a very common, unintellectual approach to work-life, and most people follow it.

I really don't think that's it.

It's about identity. He felt he lost his identity when he lost his career, that's very clear. Then he's never been able to forge an identity for himself since that he's comfortable with.

It's like career dysmorphia, a sort of "this isn't who I am or who I'm supposed to be" and it's making him fucking miserable.

But instead of seeking solutions, he's raging against the perceived evil that caused it, and when he sees that evil being celebrated, he feels compelled to educate people of the evils that he thinks they're just not seeing.

He's frustrated because he feels like an expert on this matter because of his and his family's experience, and we're all either too stubborn to acknowledge the truth, or individually we're exceptions to the rule who are just failing to see it because we think we're the norm, not the exception.

This is why he doesn't even really fully read replies, he knows it's pointless, because he knows the *truth*

That's true of course. I'm stuck on the tremendous ego it takes to insist that one's leaps of logic rule the day.  There's a clear difference between a conscious and thoughtful study of FIRE concepts to prepare for financial independence (what we are doing) and, like, giving up (which is the OP's experience).

[Metalcat]

@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.

@Skyhigh

Just because you don't actively practice a faith does not mean you lack a spiritual component to your personhood.  I'd like to strongly recommend studying some Carl Jung (sans the mysticism.)  You clearly have an internal dialogue that contains some elements that are toxic to you.  Some people would call that your "prayer" or "conversation with the Universe".  This is a very ancient concept that predates Christ.  You are dwelling on misery and thereby attracting more misery to yourself.  A little bit of Jungian analysis would allow you to do the very difficult work (and know you don't want to be seen as emotionally lazy) of examining and confronting your own shadow material and thus processing the trauma FIRE has clearly caused you. 

You are hurting.  It is noble you have a service mindset to protect others from experiencing your pain.  But (and an entire forum has basically been screaming this at you...) it is a misguided act of service.  Most people either are not traumatized by FIRE at all, or if they are, quickly process it in a productive way, instead of negatively dwelling on it like you have for decades.  You are very emotionally/psychologically (I say "spiritually") STUCK.  Take positive action to move your energy starting today.

F.I.,

You are a very kind and thoughtful person. I greatly appreciate your compassion and concern. I agree with your assessment that I am “hurting”, however I don’t believe that it is different from anyone else who has a dream. My goal is to strive to become my best self. A version that provides service to others through the contribution of my best abilities. I do not believe that striving to do noting with this life is a virtue. Volunteering at the soup kitchen while withholding superior skills and knowledge does not compensate.

In my experience those who intentionally leave the stream of life early are doing harm to themselves and to others around them. It is not a good example to our children nor does it help ourselves either.

This is getting fucking ridiculous.

Retiring early doesn't have to mean doing nothing and volunteering only at a soup kitchen.

Do you seriously just ignore everything I write?

So many people who retire are actually freed up to do much cooler work than their careers ever allowed them to. If you aren't doing that kind of volunteer work, then you either have never tried or just don't know how to get high level volunteer positions.

My current volunteer roles are more corporate, more prestigious, and involve managing much bigger projects than my career did.

Almost anyone who wants to do meaningful work is able to meaningful work once they've retired. There's literally no barrier holding anyone back.

Also, if someone is happy, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with choosing not to use their professional skills. I have many professional skills that I choose not to use. That's my right.

I used to be a chef, I didn't enjoy it, I'll never be a chef again. You have no right to dictate that I should have to be a chef just because I can.

I'm also trained professionally as an artist, I didn't enjoy it, so I don't do art anymore. And again, you have no right to dictate that I should have to be an artist.

I'm trained as a neuroscientist. I enjoyed it, but hated academia, so I don't do research anymore. And yet again, you have no right to dictate that I should be a researcher.

I'm going to do what makes ME happy. That's what you should be doing too.

So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

[Metalcat]

That's true of course. I'm stuck on the tremendous ego it takes to insist that one's leaps of logic rule the day.  There's a clear difference between a conscious and thoughtful study of FIRE concepts to prepare for financial independence (what we are doing) and, like, giving up (which is the OP's experience).

That's what happens when a position becomes an identity. It's not ego necessarily, it just seems that way. To him, it feels like the fundamental truth of who he is.

[boarder42]

So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again. 

[Metalcat]

So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.

Ah, you are too cynical.

I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.

[Skyhigh]

So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.

Ah, you are too cynical.

I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.

I get the feeling that many here are not parents. I have nothing to base it on other than expressed opinions and attitudes. The example that I provide my children is much of what drives me.

I concede that my ego is very much invested in my professional accomplishments, goals, and dreams. My career high watermark fell short of my aspirations. Most of it was due to a poor job market but a lot due to the allure of easy living through FIRE. I do blame FIRE for robbing me of my motivation, and why wouldn't it? Working at the convenience of others is a drag. It is hard to have to get up early and drive to a menial position in hopes that it will bare fruit in a decade or two. Employment sucks,, right?

My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.

Besides the bruised ego my issue is with my children. My grandfather was a decorated officer in the Navy during WWII. My father was one of the first aerospace engineers in the nation and is credited with many advances in the space program. As a child growing up in the shadows of these accomplished people my expectations and goals were formed through their example. I believe that our children pattern much of their self-esteem and life expectations from what we do. As a result, I am not comfortable with my accomplishments.

I still provide a manual labor function to my business because it gives me something to do and my kids get to see me work. My hope was to have been able to return to my chosen field and provide a different example, but it is not so easy to voluntarily stick one's head back into the noose of employment. My wife completed her college degree and started her career once the kids were all in school. She could sit at home too.

As I have mentioned before I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history.  It is especially harmful to young people. I don't believe that it provides a good example for children who will pattern their expectations on what they see their parents doing with their time and gifts. I base these findings upon the study of generations of my family and from the results of my clients. I am an expert at FIRE and it comes with a downside. Everything does.

[Skyhigh]

For all those here who wish to see me punished for my contrarian views, you will get your wish.

I have to attend a work holiday party with my spouse and will be confronted with the dreaded "so what do you do" question. I never know what to say in these situations and am always embarrassed. Below are some of the answers I have used in the past.

"I figured out how I can afford to do nothing"

"I am a laid off -----"

"I own things that make it so that I can do what I want all day"

"I ski"

"I am a kept husband"

Rest assured I will be uncomfortable for several hours. All here can take delight at my humiliations.

[Metalcat]

So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.

Ah, you are too cynical.

I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.

I get the feeling that many here are not parents. I have nothing to base it on other than expressed opinions and attitudes. The example that I provide my children is much of what drives me.

I concede that my ego is very much invested in my professional accomplishments, goals, and dreams. My career high watermark fell short of my aspirations. Most of it was due to a poor job market but a lot due to the allure of easy living through FIRE. I do blame FIRE for robbing me of my motivation, and why wouldn't it? Working at the convenience of others is a drag. It is hard to have to get up early and drive to a menial position in hopes that it will bare fruit in a decade or two. Employment sucks,, right?

My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.

Besides the bruised ego my issue is with my children. My grandfather was a decorated officer in the Navy during WWII. My father was one of the first aerospace engineers in the nation and is credited with many advances in the space program. As a child growing up in the shadows of these accomplished people my expectations and goals were formed through their example. I believe that our children pattern much of their self-esteem and life expectations from what we do. As a result, I am not comfortable with my accomplishments.

I still provide a manual labor function to my business because it gives me something to do and my kids get to see me work. My hope was to have been able to return to my chosen field and provide a different example, but it is not so easy to voluntarily stick one's head back into the noose of employment. My wife completed her college degree and started her career once the kids were all in school. She could sit at home too.

As I have mentioned before I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history.  It is especially harmful to young people. I don't believe that it provides a good example for children who will pattern their expectations on what they see their parents doing with their time and gifts. I base these findings upon the study of generations of my family and from the results of my clients. I am an expert at FIRE and it comes with a downside. Everything does.

AGAIN you ignored what I posted.

Are you doing this on purpose, because it's really fucking rude.

Did you just not read the part about how people in retirement can take on all sorts of important roles and responsibilities if they want to?

Also, my father was unemployed for most of my childhood. He had made a lot of money and then didn't work for years. He was an EXCELLENT model for me because he was very present, very involved, challenged me constantly, held me to a very high intellectual standard. We spent a TON of time together, and almost all of our quality time together consisted of being heavily involved in community service.

And guess what, I retained a strong sense of community responsibility, which is why I have a lifetime of high end volunteer work, which is why in retirement, it's so easy for me to get very elite level volunteer roles where I make an important impact on the world.

You COULD do the same thing, but you choose not to, so what example does that set for your kid?
You are setting the example that their only value will be their job title, and that's some toxic shit.

For the record, I have mentored many, many young people and had to deprogram this corporate success bullshit from them to free them up to be able to make better professional decisions for themselves.

Modeling for a kid that the only way to have value and be happy is to be employed by a company that doesn't care about them is...concerning.

[sui generis]

You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh.  You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.

Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?

If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here.  Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.

[Moustachienne]

Well, you can flip the script.  "I'm really interested in X.  I've been learning about Y.  I love doing Z.  How about you? What are you enjoying these days?  What's the most interesting/funny/satisfying thing that happened to you this year?  Etc. " Focus on others. And if you don't aren't interested in, learning about or enjoying anything, that's a whole other issue.

For all those here who wish to see me punished for my contrarian views, you will get your wish.

I have to attend a work holiday party with my spouse and will be confronted with the dreaded "so what do you do" question. I never know what to say in these situations and am always embarrassed. Below are some of the answers I have used in the past.

"I figured out how I can afford to do nothing"

"I am a laid off -----"

"I own things that make it so that I can do what I want all day"

"I ski"

"I am a kept husband"

Rest assured I will be uncomfortable for several hours. All here can take delight at my humiliations.

[ysette9]

“What do you do?”

Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).

“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”

“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be planting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”

“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”

“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’ve got new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”

“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and boosted. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”

“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “

“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”

Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.