Author Topic: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America  (Read 13761 times)

Skyhigh

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Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« on: December 18, 2019, 09:28:43 AM »
Hi, Long ago as a younger person I was able to achieve FIRE. My dream, however, has always been to be a corporate slave. I spent my life, to date, trying to achieve that goal without a result. Recently I went to my fifth interview with my career objective employer only to be rejected again.

I am well regarded, educated, and highly experienced in my field. It is beginning to seem like FIRE is preventing my progression.  Its almost like they can smell the lack of desperation in my resume. They don't see the usual wage slave career progression markers or something. I read a book recently that mentioned a culture that comes along with corporate America jobs. It went on to explain that if one does not wear the right shoes, go to certain colleges, or use specific terms they can be subtly outed as someone from the outside and passed over. They are good and well-meaning people but can not see outsiders as fitting in, one of them. I have not been able to find a book on the subject that can help. It seems that people who come from corporate wage slave families grow up with the knowledge of how to handle themselves. It's like a pedigree that can't be bought, faked, or bribed. They have connections that I do not have. Doors open for elites when needed and they seem to pass through the tiers without much resistance into a well paying and highly respected positions.

I grew up in a FIRE family. Achieving FIRE has been a natural thing for me. I watched my mother build a small real estate empire. Instead of playing football or working at a grocery store after school I would ride my bike to one of my mother's job sites and work. I took her experiences and built upon it to create something even better. I am thankful for all the opportunity it has provided however there are some incredible downsides as well. To me, FIRE feels like a wasted life. I can't do any more volunteering. I am not interested in any more classes or lower-tier experience building jobs.  I have children whom I wish to see gainfully employed as they continue to grow up. My father had a long and satisfying career. He came from an elite corporate wage slave family. He did not understand FIRE and pushed back against it until he was laid off at 47 and retired because he could.

I am most likely out of luck. Too old now. My industry has moved onto a younger generation. It is incredibly sad for me. I wanted to be an example to my children. I am not sold on FIRE for them. My FIRE peers do not seem to do well in life. FIRE at a young age leads to self-destructive behavior in my experience. FIRE at an older age accelerates the decrepitude process. People tend to stop challenging themselves. They stop growing. Bad habits creep in. There is a lot to be thankful for as a corporate wage slave; the ability to be challenged, to achieve, to be embedded in an extensive social group. I am not alone. I have several FIRE peers who desperately want to get out as well. However, they have not tried as hard as I have.

Many here will not be sympathetic to my plea however those same people have cracked the code into corporate America. I am able to earn far more working my business however to what end does it serve this existence to be well paid but stuck in the same job I was doing in High School? Isn't there supposed to be more to this life than existing in a self-indulgent FIRE lifestyle? How does one break into one of the better corporate America jobs?

bacchi

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2019, 09:47:22 AM »
You keep posting this, @Skyhigh. To what end? Are you looking for sympathy?

Your pleas almost read like satire.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2019, 10:02:27 AM »

Hi, FIRE is a small peer group. Few in life share the same experience. I am reaching out here in hopes that you could tell me what to do.

In addition, my aim is to share my FIRE experiences here in an attempt to help others. There are some major downsides to this life that many have not encountered yet. A lack of purpose is one. Endless wasted days are another. The devaluation of the freedoms accomplished is everpresent. Being out of sync with the rest of the world is lonely and often sad. People outside of FIRE hold a grudge against us. It can be difficult to maintain friendships.

Single people find it difficult to meet others when they are outside of the working world. FIRE parents lose some ability to help their children to become productive adults. There is a lot more.

People are meant to work and contribute. The work should be meaningful and challenging.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 10:04:09 AM by Skyhigh »

flyingaway

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2019, 10:08:11 AM »
Since you don't need money, you can ask for a $1 salary to see how they respond.

infromsea

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2019, 10:28:17 AM »
An interesting post.

As someone who takes from the FIRE community what is needed and leaves other components "behind" I can sympathize with you. Being FIRE and having a pension makes it easier to do this (take what works for me and ignore some "parts"). Example, my wife wanted a ***GASP*** big old F150 to drive back and forth to work, 8 miles each way... why? She's worked hard all her life, she sees herself as a "truck girl" and she had to "give up" her truck back in the day when we first got married, married young, and pregnant. In addition, she's not "in the same place" I am "on the path" mentally/emotionally when it comes to self-knowledge and awareness so, after 15 years of negotiation between us and hitting some other financial goals, we agreed and now she's got her toy.

I say all of that to say that you've had a fairly good run at this lifestyle, you've see more/other parts of it than many, and your POV may have shifted over time. It's almost if you've been taken out of the matrix, realized you kind of liked it in the matrix and want back in... no issue here/not my place to judge/criticize, I'm not a member of the internet retirement police.

Now, if you really do want that corporate job/BS or otherwise... have you considered becoming a project manager?  I believe you were an airline pilot who FIRED and moved into real-estate? It might be hard to translate some of your experience into the hours of experience you need for some of the PM certifications (much of the requirements are arbitrary and only there to keep the bar/income potential of the certs high) but this is one of my specialties, helping veterans translate military experience into application experience, I could offer you the same (free of course). At the risk of being the guy with a hammer wanting to use it on every nail, I've found the PMP to be a real asset, allowing me to swap fields and move into work from home in support of healthcare/insurance, even though my 24 years of military experience was in Naval Aviation Maintenance, the cert still opens doors in nearly every industry.

I can see the truth in many of your posts, we (humans) need challenges that matter to us, we also desire status and, at times, things. In addition, we are all on different spots along the path and who are any of us to challenge the beliefs/thoughts/desires of others, especially someone "further on" down the path and as long as they are not "hitting us in the nose when they swing their fist". Also, some jobs come with perks you won't otherwise get. I don't get to go on-board aircraft carriers anymore, go out to sea with them, watch jets launch and recover, I've moved on, I'm beyond that and working to re-enforce other parts of my identify (and ultimately let all of that and the ego go but that's a LONG damn process...). So, I've "lost" perks but they don't mean so much to me that I'd take a crummy GOVT contractor job just to head back out to sea, I'm ok with it. However, there are some GOOD perks out there with some of this positions, many of them using OPM to cover lots of expenses, I can see the drive for some.

In summary, might I suggest a PMP/other project MGR certification, a remote position or one in support of a cause you care about (something I'm looking for, moving into support of a non-profit/veteran related position), something that has some of the perks yet still gives you max flexibility/freedom (two things that probably increase our contentment more than pay or another XXXX or ZZZZ). I've met lots of "older" PMs who came from other industries, I don't think ageism is as bad in this line of work.

Good luck on your journey down the path!

ixtap

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2019, 10:31:03 AM »
Or could it be that your disdain and distrust are coming through in the interviews?

If you are getting interviews, it is unlikely that your problem is an employment gap. They would filter for that prior to the interview stage.

DadJokes

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2019, 10:37:14 AM »
Why do you equate meaningful work with working in corporate America?

I bet there are a lot of nonprofits that would provide far more meaningful work for someone who doesn't actually need the money.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2019, 12:18:11 PM »
Since you don't need money, you can ask for a $1 salary to see how they respond.

It seems that employers want people who are on the financial hook. They like indentured servants who are afraid to lose their jobs due to financial need. It is my belief that they are looking for those that they can dominate and extort. My strategy is to try and project the opposite impression of being able to work for free. I have plenty of experience building jobs in my field that essentially are of the "work for free" nature. It seems that they want to keep those people working for free in the lower ranks as long as possible. In order to move up, one must express an attitude of being willing to work for a competitor if necessary.

Thanks though!


Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2019, 12:23:52 PM »
Why do you equate meaningful work with working in corporate America?

I bet there are a lot of nonprofits that would provide far more meaningful work for someone who doesn't actually need the money.

Hi, I have spent many years being a volunteer firefighter, on various boards helping affordable housing and other civil duties. I worked at a ski resort for fun. It all seems like time-wasting to me. Mostly older retired people on civic boards. As someone in FIRE your peer group tends to be decades older. Nice people but I am too young for the 5am McDonald's coffee crowd. LOL 

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2019, 12:41:29 PM »
Or could it be that your disdain and distrust are coming through in the interviews?

If you are getting interviews, it is unlikely that your problem is an employment gap. They would filter for that prior to the interview stage.

I am on the older side of things now however, I do have a resume of many valuable current employment experiences. They asked me strange questions in the interview. They clearly seemed to see something in my background that they did not like. I did have some employment gaps due to economic ups and downs long ago (and because I did not have to work the truely miserable jobs). Older people tend to have resumes that reflect irregularities more than younger people.

They tried to make me accept a lower position. However, I have already been down that road and it is a dead end.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2019, 01:03:02 PM »


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

infromsea

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2019, 01:18:42 PM »
Since you don't need money, you can ask for a $1 salary to see how they respond.
It seems that employers want people who are on the financial hook. They like indentured servants who are afraid to lose their jobs due to financial need. It is my belief that they are looking for those that they can dominate and extort. My strategy is to try and project the opposite impression of being able to work for free.

Thanks though!

To state the obvious, it depends on who/where you are "working".

I do my corporate job in a manner of "do what the job requires, piss off on the extra meetings and socializing crap, if you don't like my level of performance, I can walk, no hurt feelings" and the supervisor/ORG have zero issue with that. I didn't go in saying that but I've demonstrated it time and time again through behavior.

Another team MBR is the "nervous Nancy" who is always STRIVING to demonstrate his worth but that's because he's near the end, doesn't want to jeopardize his retirement or health insurance so he makes DAMN sure the supervisor knows what he's up to and is, in all manner, a pest. I suspect that the supervisor appreciates his work but, at the same time, realizes how annoying this behavior is (look at the work I did on this powerpoint today, oh wait, here is an update 30 minutes later, oh wait, here's another update at the end of the day... constantly...) but doesn't squash NOR encourage it.

I'm lucky to be in this position and will probably regret it when it's gone. There ARE positions like this "out there", just maybe not in your physical area?

blue_green_sparks

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2019, 02:15:10 PM »
After years as an electrical design engineer for blue chip corporations I finally caved and became a manager. Honestly I would be a bit hesitant to hire someone who didn't really "need" the job. It is just one consideration among many. When the deadline approaches....is it the needless one who will work Saturday and Sunday, unpaid? Maybe/Maybe not. I saw plenty of people who could/should have retired just chatting and surfing the net hour after hour.

For some of us early retirement is simply glorious.

spartana

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2019, 02:32:29 PM »


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
Then un-FIRE yourself. Donate all your money and assets to a charity and become a poor person who has nothing. If FIRE is what you feel is holding you back from living the life you want, then perhaps actually needing to work until a much later age will work better for you. You could even start a new movement with a catchy acronym to go along with your new wave slave title.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 02:34:04 PM by spartana »

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2019, 06:40:01 PM »
It’s not that easy to un-FIRE. It is comfortable to not be on the leash. Kind of a golden handcuff situation especially when there are no assurances of gaining a suitable result. I may have to start over at the complete bottom again. However I don't have 15 years left to climb the ladder all over again.

It is difficult to Un-FIRE and FIRE is not perfect.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 06:53:30 PM by Skyhigh »

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2019, 06:57:41 PM »
After years as an electrical design engineer for blue chip corporations I finally caved and became a manager. Honestly I would be a bit hesitant to hire someone who didn't really "need" the job. It is just one consideration among many. When the deadline approaches....is it the needless one who will work Saturday and Sunday, unpaid? Maybe/Maybe not. I saw plenty of people who could/should have retired just chatting and surfing the net hour after hour.

For some of us early retirement is simply glorious.

I am sure that early retirement is great after achieving some sort of professional satisfaction. Lottery winners usually donít do well with their new life. The after glow usually lasts a year or two before the monotony of endless useless days sets in.

Telecaster

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2019, 07:11:13 PM »


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work.    You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you.  Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way.  You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job. 

Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting. 

FreshlyFIREd

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2019, 02:52:44 AM »


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work.    You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you.  Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way.  You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job. 

Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.

What he said ...

ysette9

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2019, 03:14:40 AM »
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2019, 08:10:09 AM »
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?

It seems that if someone wants a career here then they must be crazy. I believe that endless days of self indulgent existence is not a good thing for younger people. To intentionally idle oneself and suspend their vital function to this world is not a good idea. To what end does it serve to cease being a contributing member of society?

It is not all that satisfying to be out of sync with the rest of the world. To be skiing on a Wednesday while everyone is at work loses its appeal very fast. Self esteem is linked to ones career. Satisfaction comes from completing a difficult task using all ones best gifts. FIRE is very depressing to most I have seen. It makes them take on bad habits, self destructive behaviors, and brings on depression.

Consider a dinner party. Everyone there usually discusses professional accomplishments, goals, past positions. Someone who has achieved FIRE can share the fence they mended or lawnmower they repaired. Not a meaningful use of time for those of us with advanced degrees and skill sets. Those who have achieved FIRE can not be reckless with their funds since they need it to last for decades. Those with careers can afford to blow their paycheck since there is another on the way in two weeks. Working seems to provide an abundance mentality.

I guess I am trying to improve my attitude through an attempt to reclaim my career dreams. I do not believe that FIRE is healthy place for most.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 08:12:10 AM by Skyhigh »

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2019, 08:19:22 AM »


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work.    You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you.  Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way.  You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job. 

Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.

Thank you for your input. :)

I currently work lower rung positions and have for some time. I am getting older. It is time for me to achieve my career objective position. No more volunteer stuff. I am through with supporting roles.

My industry is looking for fools to fill the lower rungs at a quarter of the wages. Accepting the lower jobs does not help after a while. I do network and go to several job fairs a year. I write letters and constantly apply to several companies.

I maintain a large network of similar older peers who are experiencing the same rejection. It seems there is an unseen method of getting the better positions that my peers and  I am not privy too.

infromsea

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2019, 09:22:52 AM »
After years as an electrical design engineer for blue chip corporations I finally caved and became a manager. Honestly I would be a bit hesitant to hire someone who didn't really "need" the job. It is just one consideration among many. When the deadline approaches....is it the needless one who will work Saturday and Sunday, unpaid? Maybe/Maybe not. I saw plenty of people who could/should have retired just chatting and surfing the net hour after hour.

I would ask "why does the person not need to work"?

If they don't HAVE to work due to FIRE/good prior decisions, I would suspect that the individual may be MORE of an assets since they probably developed good skills and work habits on their way to FIRE. Example, I hate wasting time in mindless meetings (as you mention other wasting time on the net etc.) and, in the corporate environment that many try to create (and I push to reject), meetings often accomplish little and result in only more meetings, the proverbial "move that stack of papers from one place on the desk to another place and call it work". So, I push to end those meetings as soon as it is obvious that we have nothing of substance to discuss. I also don't join meetings that I have nothing of value to add/work to do. Now, when there IS work to be done, I focus, I do it within a very short time frame, I ask for feedback, I make corrections as needed and I respond/stay in good communication with others. So, just because someone doesn't "need" a job doesn't mean they won't do well at it.

Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?

I was thinking the same thing, there is likely something other than a desire for work that is driving this, what are the underlying needs etc. that are not being met and causing this desire for "work"? To get touchy-feely for a minute, could there be an un-resolved issue from the "animal mind/needs" that is pushing this desire/need/want into the consciousness? OP, consider reading Awareness by Demillo, it is eye-opening.

Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?

Consider a dinner party. Everyone there usually discusses professional accomplishments, goals, past positions. Someone who has achieved FIRE can share the fence they mended or lawnmower they repaired. Not a meaningful use of time for those of us with advanced degrees and skill sets. Those who have achieved FIRE can not be reckless with their funds since they need it to last for decades. Those with careers can afford to blow their paycheck since there is another on the way in two weeks. Working seems to provide an abundance mentality.

I guess I am trying to improve my attitude through an attempt to reclaim my career dreams. I do not believe that FIRE is healthy place for most.

I would suggest removing the assumptions that XXX or YYY isn't good for "most" and simply state that the principles are not for "all" or they don't work for "some". Assuming that OUR experience is THE experience and that most people (who are not in our head, not from our experience, not in the same place we are) is a common fallacy. Different strokes for different folks and all...

Can you find another "tribe" (slight shudder when typing that...) to engage with? I'm a vet so I interact/engage with many vet groups and take what I need for them/produce many "dinner party stories" in that process.



I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting. 

I suffer from this (half-assed attempts to find another/different "job/work") and it's usually due to boredom or a temporary mood/bad experience. Once I set with the situation and consider my situation from a birds-eye view, I remind myself of how blessed I am/good I have it, and often change my mental state into one of acceptance and gratitude VS irritation and boredom/agitation.

Skyhigh

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Financial Paranoia
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2019, 09:38:08 AM »

We have a relative who achieved FIRE at 44. He one of those Microsoft millionaires who cashed in just as their professional utility began to wane. It has been some time now and he has done well with his investments however at family gatherings people sinker when he always needs to "share" a coke with someone. He is notoriously frugal even though he is a millionaire many times over.

He suffers from what I call Financial Paranoia. He has developed a fear of running out of money since he no longer has job skills of value. He has no safety net and is constantly watching the market with great trepidation and fear. I know the signs because I have it too. After my career dumped me on the street and achieved FIRE I am constantly looking over my shoulder.  I am responsible for 8 people in my family and six employees.  It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

I don't have a safety net anymore. FIRE can create a scarcity mindset and it is not fun. In order to grow the top line, I am constantly taking on new properties and construction projects. Each one comes with a healthy dose of trepidation. I have seen plenty of successful real estate investors crater in the most spectacular manner. No one is ever truly safe from financial ruin. Those with valuable job skills can always get another job or fall back onto their portfolios. Those who have achieved FIRE often do not have a career to fall back onto. It is often an uncomfortable situation to be in.

infromsea

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Re: Financial Paranoia
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2019, 09:54:32 AM »
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.

You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?

sui generis

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2019, 11:52:19 AM »


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work.    You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you.  Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way.  You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job. 

Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.

Thank you for your input. :)

I currently work lower rung positions and have for some time. I am getting older. It is time for me to achieve my career objective position. No more volunteer stuff. I am through with supporting roles.

My industry is looking for fools to fill the lower rungs at a quarter of the wages. Accepting the lower jobs does not help after a while. I do network and go to several job fairs a year. I write letters and constantly apply to several companies.

I maintain a large network of similar older peers who are experiencing the same rejection. It seems there is an unseen method of getting the better positions that my peers and  I am not privy too.

Here's the secret you are not privy to - you have to work the lower positions and do a good job at them to get promoted to the higher positions with the prestige you seem to think you need and deserve.  You have either not done the jobs that give you the experience you need to get the jobs you think you deserve, or you have and you have done poorly and have not been considered for promotion by those handing out the prestigious jobs. 

I'm not sure why you think you deserve these prestigious jobs, and I've previously addressed on another (nearly identical) thread of yours why you are fooling yourself that you need a prestigious job to be happy.

The fact that you spend so much time and effort pursuing something you believe you want is laudatory. The fact that you've been unable to achieve it seems to have some lessons in it that you just refuse to learn, and you just keep ending up at the same starting point, lamenting your bad luck and terrible situation.  Seems like an awful cycle to be stuck in and I wish you the best in making progress escaping it.

ericrugiero

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2019, 02:28:40 PM »
I have a co-worker who has expressed similar complaints about how certain people get promoted and others do not.  He thinks it's a conspiracy or "they" have picked who "they" like and are going to promote.  From the outside looking in it's very obvious that the reason he hasn't been promoted is his terrible attitude.  He is a smart guy with a conspiracy theory and a bad attitude. 

I don't know enough about Skyhigh to say if something similar is going on.  I do know from my experience the people who are promoted typically either:
-Do a great job and deserve it
-Suck up to the bosses and fool them
-Have an extra reason to be promoted such as friends in high places, diversity, etc

Skyhigh, I would recommend you think about what will really make you happy.  Everyone should have a purpose in their life and working hard to accomplish something does provide a sense of accomplishment.  On the other hand, getting the meaning of your life from work can be miserable and leaves you susceptible to "failure" if you lose your job.  If you want a good job you should look very hard at what kind of attitude you present when applying.  Being a little older is definitely a down side for many employers because they want someone who they can train to work there for many years.  But, if you go in with a defensive attitude about that then the interviewers will definitely pick up on it and will have a legitimate reason to bypass you. 

ysette9

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2019, 03:19:34 PM »
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?

It seems that if someone wants a career here then they must be crazy. I believe that endless days of self indulgent existence is not a good thing for younger people. To intentionally idle oneself and suspend their vital function to this world is not a good idea. To what end does it serve to cease being a contributing member of society?

It is not all that satisfying to be out of sync with the rest of the world. To be skiing on a Wednesday while everyone is at work loses its appeal very fast. Self esteem is linked to ones career. Satisfaction comes from completing a difficult task using all ones best gifts. FIRE is very depressing to most I have seen. It makes them take on bad habits, self destructive behaviors, and brings on depression.

Consider a dinner party. Everyone there usually discusses professional accomplishments, goals, past positions. Someone who has achieved FIRE can share the fence they mended or lawnmower they repaired. Not a meaningful use of time for those of us with advanced degrees and skill sets. Those who have achieved FIRE can not be reckless with their funds since they need it to last for decades. Those with careers can afford to blow their paycheck since there is another on the way in two weeks. Working seems to provide an abundance mentality.

I guess I am trying to improve my attitude through an attempt to reclaim my career dreams. I do not believe that FIRE is healthy place for most.

I feel your FIRE experience is out of step with the majority of people on this forum. Over on the Post-FI threads the consensus seems to be contentment, even joy at their lot in life. People constantly talk about how wonderful it is to be able to ski on a Wednesday when there are no lift lines, or go grocery shopping when no one else is there to fight for a parking spot.

This line struck me: "endless days of self indulgent existence" - maybe that is the root of your discontentment. No one here is advocating a vision of FI where you sit around and eat bonbons all day. MMM talks a lot about how satisfaction in life comes from hard work, physical and mental. It is just that FI allows you to do that on your own terms. So instead of a career you can work out and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and play in a community orchestra or sing in a choir and spend more time with your kids and go hiking/camping, and read all the books, and.... (yes, I am listing my personal wish list of things to do in FI). If you don't do anything meaningful with your time then you will end up bored and depressed. I think the pushback you are getting is that a career is certainly not the only way to do something meaningful with your time, and if you can't think of anything, then you should spend some time reexamining yourself.

Telecaster

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2019, 04:46:08 PM »
I feel your FIRE experience is out of step with the majority of people on this forum. Over on the Post-FI threads the consensus seems to be contentment, even joy at their lot in life. People constantly talk about how wonderful it is to be able to ski on a Wednesday when there are no lift lines, or go grocery shopping when no one else is there to fight for a parking spot.

This line struck me: "endless days of self indulgent existence" - maybe that is the root of your discontentment. No one here is advocating a vision of FI where you sit around and eat bonbons all day. MMM talks a lot about how satisfaction in life comes from hard work, physical and mental. It is just that FI allows you to do that on your own terms. So instead of a career you can work out and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and play in a community orchestra or sing in a choir and spend more time with your kids and go hiking/camping, and read all the books, and.... (yes, I am listing my personal wish list of things to do in FI). If you don't do anything meaningful with your time then you will end up bored and depressed. I think the pushback you are getting is that a career is certainly not the only way to do something meaningful with your time, and if you can't think of anything, then you should spend some time reexamining yourself.

The OP wants to spend his days furthering his career in corporate America.  I don't see a thing wrong with that desire.  Some people just want or need external direction and validation.  The OP appears to be one of those people.  More power to him, if that's the case. 

The pushback seems to be that he is unwilling to take the necessary steps to advance his career.   The path to a good corporate job is simple and in plain sight:  Develop an in-demand skill set and become a top performer in your chosen field. 

While simple, that path is seldom easy and usually requires doing things your peers are unwilling to do.     Working both harder and smarter, professional development on your own time, taking challenging projects that test your abilities, taking shitty projects no one else wants, seeking out networking events, joining and leading professional organizations, mentoring others, etc.   Most people don't want to do all that, so they wind up getting stuck where the OP is, at mid-level positions with little hope of advancement. 

Zette

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2019, 09:28:08 PM »
SkyHigh, I think what youíre missing is that most everyone in corporate America eventually finds themselves stalled somewhere on the promotion ladder.  Very few make it to the high rungs. Just thinking about the engineering jobs I had, only about 1 in 10 would even be a first level manager.  Perhaps after putting in 15 years that might be 1 in 5.  There might be 5 first level managers reporting to a director, and 5-10 directors reporting to the VP of Engineering.   So of about 500 engineers, only one is in a position to majorly influence the direction of the company.   Youíve taken entry level positions, havenít put in the years required to build political capital and network, and wonder why you havenít reached the senior positions.

ysette9

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2019, 02:06:49 AM »
I feel your FIRE experience is out of step with the majority of people on this forum. Over on the Post-FI threads the consensus seems to be contentment, even joy at their lot in life. People constantly talk about how wonderful it is to be able to ski on a Wednesday when there are no lift lines, or go grocery shopping when no one else is there to fight for a parking spot.

This line struck me: "endless days of self indulgent existence" - maybe that is the root of your discontentment. No one here is advocating a vision of FI where you sit around and eat bonbons all day. MMM talks a lot about how satisfaction in life comes from hard work, physical and mental. It is just that FI allows you to do that on your own terms. So instead of a career you can work out and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and play in a community orchestra or sing in a choir and spend more time with your kids and go hiking/camping, and read all the books, and.... (yes, I am listing my personal wish list of things to do in FI). If you don't do anything meaningful with your time then you will end up bored and depressed. I think the pushback you are getting is that a career is certainly not the only way to do something meaningful with your time, and if you can't think of anything, then you should spend some time reexamining yourself.

The OP wants to spend his days furthering his career in corporate America.  I don't see a thing wrong with that desire.  Some people just want or need external direction and validation.  The OP appears to be one of those people.  More power to him, if that's the case. 

The pushback seems to be that he is unwilling to take the necessary steps to advance his career.   The path to a good corporate job is simple and in plain sight:  Develop an in-demand skill set and become a top performer in your chosen field. 

While simple, that path is seldom easy and usually requires doing things your peers are unwilling to do.     Working both harder and smarter, professional development on your own time, taking challenging projects that test your abilities, taking shitty projects no one else wants, seeking out networking events, joining and leading professional organizations, mentoring others, etc.   Most people don't want to do all that, so they wind up getting stuck where the OP is, at mid-level positions with little hope of advancement.
That is a fair observation. But then if the issue is a desire to get ahead in a career, that is its own separate question unrelated to FIRE. It almost feels like the OP is blaming being FI for a lack of career progression.

Malcat

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2019, 06:31:39 AM »
You keep posting the exact same thread over and over and over again, and you keep trying to blame FIRE for all of your problems.

Well, that's just ridiculous.

If you keep running into the same problem over and over again and the same approach isn't working to solve it, then for fuck's sake, try something different.

FYI, I have *exactly* the job that I think you want. I work casually on and off for a few corporations (I could work full time if I wanted to), I get the executive level meetings, the private club dinners, cool job titles, an expense account, even those fobs and IDs that you lust after. I'm paid very well per hour of work, I don't have to do any work that's "beneath me", actually, I don't have to do any work I don't want to do period.

4 years ago, these jobs didn't exist and I had no possible way to get them. I made them exist. I made myself uniquely valuable through skills training, networking, and volunteering for special projects.

Like you, I felt cornered by my professional training and experience. I was trained to do one thing and one thing only and that career was closing its doors to me because of my health problems. I can't really go back and even if I could, I'm getting too old to go back and do it in the most successful way. My original career dream was totally crushed within the first 3 years of working.

I had exactly zero other doors open to me until I pried them open through sheer will and determination.

So you can only have it one of two ways.
You can continue your pity party and blame being financially liberated for all of your woes.
OR
You can nut up, realize that you are the ONLY thing standing in your way, and figure out what YOU are doing that is creating a barrier between you and your stated goals.

Really though, stop whining that the world isn't handing you exactly what you want in exactly the form that you want it for exactly the amount of effort that you want to put in.

If you want to compete for high status corporate work, then yeah, you are going to have to compete with very hungry competition who are younger and far more willing to eat shit than you are. You will either have to be hungrier than they are, or find a way to make yourself so uniquely valuable that they can't ever compete with you.

That's what I did. It was fucking hard work.
So suck it up and do the work or sit down and learn to enjoy your retirement.

Either way, consider getting yourself some therapy because coming here and posting threads that you know full well will end in people heavily criticizing you is not a mentally healthy habit.

jim555

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2019, 07:53:22 AM »
Lame troll post, again.

Get a life.  You do need a real job, keep trying.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2019, 11:27:09 AM »

Hi,

Thanks everyone. I have read "Mans Search for Meaning" and many other books. It is something that FIRE people do. We read a lot of financial and improvement type books.

I don't think this is a "troll" thread at all but rather an important question. Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?

I am a highly trained and educated professional who spends his days accomplishing the exact same grueling manual labor tasks that I want to college to escape from. I have staff and can afford to hire much of it out but I can't bring myself to pay others the punishing sum they want. I received a quote from a professional painter the other day to paint the interior of a house and they wanted $6000. I can paint a house in two days. FIRE can change a professional into a manual laborer since my financial fears will not let me spend that kind of money on something I could do.

My point is that FIRE has some incredible downsides; it's lonely, may not provide a great example for children, can destroy employability, often is the cause of financial paranoia, depression, and other attitude challenges. I don't believe that humans are supposed to be professionally idle at any age but especially as younger people. Those of us who have the ability to achieve FIRE often are professional high achievers. In my opinion, it is unhealthy to park that capacity.

I am certain that plenty here will share an opposing view and I welcome it. This is a forum, a place to share opposing ideas in a public place.
 


Skyhigh

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Re: Financial Paranoia
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2019, 11:35:36 AM »
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.

You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?

Thank you very much. I do have professional career guides and the ideas they have are great but would mean risking the security we currently have. My business is reaching a point where I could take on that challenge however it is not fun to have to start over at the bottom especially when there are no assurances that it will produce the results I am after.

My angst comes from a sense of doors closing. The opportunity cost of FIRE is making itself known and I don't like it.

sui generis

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Re: Financial Paranoia
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2019, 11:54:37 AM »
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.

You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?

Thank you very much. I do have professional career guides and the ideas they have are great but would mean risking the security we currently have. My business is reaching a point where I could take on that challenge however it is not fun to have to start over at the bottom especially when there are no assurances that it will produce the results I am after.

My angst comes from a sense of doors closing. The opportunity cost of FIRE is making itself known and I don't like it.

Are you f'ing kidding me with this?  You are so unhappy in FIRE and so desperate for a corporate "wage slave" job that you are making multiple redundant posts across this forum, but because what you need to do to achieve your dream is "not fun" and a little uncertain you'd just rather sit around and complain more?  Guess what?  Pursuing your dreams is always uncertain and no one ever said it would be fun.  In fact, I'm pretty sure people only ever talk about how hard it is. 

Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one that is getting pretty sick and tired of your broad generalizations about FIRE.  You need to learn to speak only from your experience and only on behalf of yourself until and unless you have significant data to back up your claims that FIRE is generally harmful.  There are plenty of us that engaging our minds and bodies in ways we never have before, even when we were in high-powered corporate jobs that you've never been able to achieve.  We've found meaning and happiness, value and connection, and your posting here about how wasteful it is to make a difference in one's community by volunteering or get out and do activities that are inarguably healthy for the mind and the body like hiking is so contrary to most human being's values that I almost wonder if you are some kind of AI with terrible programming. 

I'm sorry that FIRE has been such a terrible experience for you.  But please GTFO and do something about it instead of making so many redundant posts here.  Talk about a waste of time and human potential...

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2019, 12:04:05 PM »
SkyHigh, I think what youíre missing is that most everyone in corporate America eventually finds themselves stalled somewhere on the promotion ladder.  Very few make it to the high rungs. Just thinking about the engineering jobs I had, only about 1 in 10 would even be a first level manager.  Perhaps after putting in 15 years that might be 1 in 5.  There might be 5 first level managers reporting to a director, and 5-10 directors reporting to the VP of Engineering.   So of about 500 engineers, only one is in a position to majorly influence the direction of the company.   Youíve taken entry level positions, havenít put in the years required to build political capital and network, and wonder why you havenít reached the senior positions.

Hi,

I spent my 20's and 30's building my resume. I paid my dues many times over and reached a point where the next step was to my professional objective. I was receiving interviews before the market collapsed. It's back now and my resume is competitive. I have been called in for one interview but they can't relate to my situation. I go to several job fairs every year and see plenty of others in a similar situation. One interviewer referred to us older displaced workers trying to return to our profession as "retreads".

It most likely is ageism, however, their insistence that I start over suggests that they want to know how desperate I am. It is a measure of one's willingness to be placed into a bad situation for the career. FIRE makes it so that I don't have to do that. Sometimes it seems that financial need propels others through difficult stuff to achieve the desired result. Freedom to avoid the harder stuff can seem to make one ineligible for employment.  Golden handcuffs.

Skyhigh

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Re: Financial Paranoia
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2019, 12:11:15 PM »
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.

You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?

Thank you very much. I do have professional career guides and the ideas they have are great but would mean risking the security we currently have. My business is reaching a point where I could take on that challenge however it is not fun to have to start over at the bottom especially when there are no assurances that it will produce the results I am after.

My angst comes from a sense of doors closing. The opportunity cost of FIRE is making itself known and I don't like it.

Are you f'ing kidding me with this?  You are so unhappy in FIRE and so desperate for a corporate "wage slave" job that you are making multiple redundant posts across this forum, but because what you need to do to achieve your dream is "not fun" and a little uncertain you'd just rather sit around and complain more?  Guess what?  Pursuing your dreams is always uncertain and no one ever said it would be fun.  In fact, I'm pretty sure people only ever talk about how hard it is. 

Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one that is getting pretty sick and tired of your broad generalizations about FIRE.  You need to learn to speak only from your experience and only on behalf of yourself until and unless you have significant data to back up your claims that FIRE is generally harmful.  There are plenty of us that engaging our minds and bodies in ways we never have before, even when we were in high-powered corporate jobs that you've never been able to achieve.  We've found meaning and happiness, value and connection, and your posting here about how wasteful it is to make a difference in one's community by volunteering or get out and do activities that are inarguably healthy for the mind and the body like hiking is so contrary to most human being's values that I almost wonder if you are some kind of AI with terrible programming. 

I'm sorry that FIRE has been such a terrible experience for you.  But please GTFO and do something about it instead of making so many redundant posts here.  Talk about a waste of time and human potential...

I do not have a research department that will measure up to your requirements. However, I do have considerable life experience living FIRE and feel authorized to make such statements. I have studied this concept for several decades now and use an extensive peer group as a database. I come from a family who has lived FIRE and have been able to observe their life results. Take it or leave it, however, I have a right to express my opinions as I see it. You do not have to qualify your statements.  A forum is a place to express ideas and opinions in a public manner for discussion.

Malcat

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2019, 12:25:55 PM »
Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?

This is literally my reality.
I'm trained as a highly specialized, highly technical procedural medical professional who has had to give up working with my hands. Those doors are closed.

As I already said, I worked very very hard to diversify my skills and generate opportunities that don't involve me utilizing my training, but still challenge and reward me.

I don't mow lawns or do manual labour of any sort.
I don't do any low skill tasks at all except around my own home. It's been a lot of hard work to get here, and no one told me how to do it. I hit a lot of blocks along the way, abandoned a lot of ideas, and adjusted to the realities of what my market actually wanted from me.

In what universe is managing properties the only work available in FIRE? I mean, you do know whose blog this forum belongs to right? You do know what Pete does with his time, right?

Plenty of people do great work that is rewarding in FIRE. FIRE doesn't have any negative consequences that you don't allow it to have.

You are the person failing to generate such opportunities for yourself. You are the person not thinking outside the box. You are the person who is hitting the exact same road block over and over and over again and refusing to find a way around it.

You do this every time. You conveniently curate the responses you get to match your version of reality where you are some kind of victim.
You aren't.

FIRE is not your problem.
As long as you keep imagining that it is, you will keep bashing your own head against the same barriers

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2019, 03:56:34 PM »
Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?

This is literally my reality.
I'm trained as a highly specialized, highly technical procedural medical professional who has had to give up working with my hands. Those doors are closed.

As I already said, I worked very very hard to diversify my skills and generate opportunities that don't involve me utilizing my training, but still challenge and reward me.

I don't mow lawns or do manual labour of any sort.
I don't do any low skill tasks at all except around my own home. It's been a lot of hard work to get here, and no one told me how to do it. I hit a lot of blocks along the way, abandoned a lot of ideas, and adjusted to the realities of what my market actually wanted from me.

In what universe is managing properties the only work available in FIRE? I mean, you do know whose blog this forum belongs to right? You do know what Pete does with his time, right?

Plenty of people do great work that is rewarding in FIRE. FIRE doesn't have any negative consequences that you don't allow it to have.

You are the person failing to generate such opportunities for yourself. You are the person not thinking outside the box. You are the person who is hitting the exact same road block over and over and over again and refusing to find a way around it.

You do this every time. You conveniently curate the responses you get to match your version of reality where you are some kind of victim.
You aren't.

FIRE is not your problem.
As long as you keep imagining that it is, you will keep bashing your own head against the same barriers

Thank you.

All I can say is that FIRE can create its own kind of imprisonment. It's too good to leave but not very satisfying at times. I don't like some of the things that come with it; financial paranoia, cruel manual labor, lack of job satisfaction, loss of professional value, scarcity mentality, loneliness, boredom.... ect.  I am certain that some people are able to find satisfying outlets in FIRE however in my experience the most common path to FIRE involves severe financial self-deprivation and demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer.

The barriers I face are self-created and a side effect of FIRE. Plenty of people here are looking at strategies that involve most of the things I have been dealing with for a long time now. Parts of it are not that appealing. A solid paycheck and benefits can look pretty good.

I have read much of Pete's blog. It all looks familiar to me. I haven't read much lately though. I will make the effort.

Update: I just took a look at Pete's blog and it seems like he does a lot of the same things. I build/remodel and manage real estate. My kids did not even know that pizza could be delivered until recently. We never go out to eat, no TV, and live a financially deprived life. Our cars are old. It's the only life I have known. Am I missing something?

On the upside: Most everything I work on is something that I own. I live where I want and largely how I want. My kids grew up without going to daycare. Since being laid off I have slept in my own bed and am not forced to travel much. I go to sleep when I am tired and get up when rested (unless the kids have school). I never get stuck in traffic jams. I am the master of my days. All it took in trade were my professional dreams and that bothers me at times.   
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 04:24:04 PM by Skyhigh »

Malcat

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2019, 05:10:11 PM »
Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?

This is literally my reality.
I'm trained as a highly specialized, highly technical procedural medical professional who has had to give up working with my hands. Those doors are closed.

As I already said, I worked very very hard to diversify my skills and generate opportunities that don't involve me utilizing my training, but still challenge and reward me.

I don't mow lawns or do manual labour of any sort.
I don't do any low skill tasks at all except around my own home. It's been a lot of hard work to get here, and no one told me how to do it. I hit a lot of blocks along the way, abandoned a lot of ideas, and adjusted to the realities of what my market actually wanted from me.

In what universe is managing properties the only work available in FIRE? I mean, you do know whose blog this forum belongs to right? You do know what Pete does with his time, right?

Plenty of people do great work that is rewarding in FIRE. FIRE doesn't have any negative consequences that you don't allow it to have.

You are the person failing to generate such opportunities for yourself. You are the person not thinking outside the box. You are the person who is hitting the exact same road block over and over and over again and refusing to find a way around it.

You do this every time. You conveniently curate the responses you get to match your version of reality where you are some kind of victim.
You aren't.

FIRE is not your problem.
As long as you keep imagining that it is, you will keep bashing your own head against the same barriers

Thank you.

All I can say is that FIRE can create its own kind of imprisonment. It's too good to leave but not very satisfying at times. I don't like some of the things that come with it; financial paranoia, cruel manual labor, lack of job satisfaction, loss of professional value, scarcity mentality, loneliness, boredom.... ect.  I am certain that some people are able to find satisfying outlets in FIRE however in my experience the most common path to FIRE involves severe financial self-deprivation and demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer.

The barriers I face are self-created and a side effect of FIRE. Plenty of people here are looking at strategies that involve most of the things I have been dealing with for a long time now. Parts of it are not that appealing. A solid paycheck and benefits can look pretty good.

I have read much of Pete's blog. It all looks familiar to me. I haven't read much lately though. I will make the effort.

Update: I just took a look at Pete's blog and it seems like he does a lot of the same things. I build/remodel and manage real estate. My kids did not even know that pizza could be delivered until recently. We never go out to eat, no TV, and live a financially deprived life. Our cars are old. It's the only life I have known. Am I missing something?

On the upside: Most everything I work on is something that I own. I live where I want and largely how I want. My kids grew up without going to daycare. Since being laid off I have slept in my own bed and am not forced to travel much. I go to sleep when I am tired and get up when rested (unless the kids have school). I never get stuck in traffic jams. I am the master of my days. All it took in trade were my professional dreams and that bothers me at times.

JFC...

I don't even know how you read my post and then responded what you did.

You are seriously determined to interpret all reality to fit your paradigm where you don't have autonomy over your own reality.

I mention Pete, and you focus on his real estate projects?
Not his 400K/yr blog? Not his MMM headquarters project?
Really? You think he's wasting his talents on menial labour?
Really?

I will say this again with conviction: FIRE IS NOT THE SOURCE OF YOUR PROBLEMS.

Runrooster

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2019, 05:18:31 PM »
I have some things in common with OP.  I am trying to land a job in corporate America.  I have been getting interviews but nothing moved forward.  I have been told this means I need to work on my interviewing skills, so that I seem like the best candidate.

I'm a little confused, however.  How does pilot career relate to corporate life? And when he talks about lower level jobs, is that regional airlines?

Are your days currently busy with manual labor, or are they free to do volunteer work? Can you liquidate your properties and invest the money in stocks/cash? Or are you dependent on the higher level income from rent?  Why do you compare yourself to someone blowing their paychecks - presumably not saving for retirement, college, weddings, emergencies?  Do you or do you not still pinch pennies (never socializing, not ordering pizza) and if so, why can't you let up a little?  Are you FIREd at a very lean level for the 8 of you?  If you mentally can't let up, why will a paycheck change that?

How do you visualize a career in corporate America? Just well-paid or also meaningful in other ways? Cocktail party conversation rarely rests on what people do for a living - politics comes up a lot, as does investing, kids.  Do you think brain labor is less boring long-term than manual labor, or are you worried about physical demands taking their toll on you?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 06:30:57 PM by Runrooster »

MrBean

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2019, 07:07:35 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY1WoHkNGy4

I think this "When I Grow Up" tutorial will aid you in your journey. If you work hard and put in the hours, you can work hard and put in the hours!

norajean

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2019, 07:36:46 AM »
You come across here as a total crackpot and no doubt the same to interviewers. I would have no interest whatsoever in boarding an aircraft flown by someone of your mental state.

Why donít you sell all your real estate and start a flight service which you can manage and grow and maybe fly a few times yourself.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2019, 10:41:29 AM »

Thanks to this conversation  I have hired a career coach. Two years ago I took my real estate content off my resume. It left a 15 year gap in my history but the results were that I received a better response. I would have thought that I would have been mentioned but it wasnít.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2019, 10:52:48 AM »
You come across here as a total crackpot and no doubt the same to interviewers. I would have no interest whatsoever in boarding an aircraft flown by someone of your mental state.

Why donít you sell all your real estate and start a flight service which you can manage and grow and maybe fly a few times yourself.

Thank you. I appreciate all your support. I have thought about starting my own aviation company however in my experience that would lead me back into the office. I donít want to do that anymore. I donít like the stress of self employment. I don't gain much satisfaction from paying myself a huge wage. It is not very fulfilling to me.

People who are employees go home after work and leave it behind. They take actual vacations and spend money as if it comes from a never ending supply. Business owners commonly donít do those things. In a bit I am heading into work to see if the drywallers are working at the job site as they promised. My employees however are at home.

Lastly, I donít think it is crazy to want a career. In my experience FIRE has some considerable down sides. Whenever I mention it people go nuts as if I am blasphemous. Everything has its points of discussion.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2019, 11:01:55 AM »
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military.  Yes, you were unlucky in your timing.  But it's been 10 years.  There's no going back.  Get over it.  Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else. 

And most of all STOP WHINING!!!!  You have more options than 98% of people on the planet.  Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?

You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams donít quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.

My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:

FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.

Malcat

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2019, 11:28:49 AM »
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military.  Yes, you were unlucky in your timing.  But it's been 10 years.  There's no going back.  Get over it.  Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else. 

And most of all STOP WHINING!!!!  You have more options than 98% of people on the planet.  Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?

You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams donít quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.

My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:

FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.

FIRE did absolutely none of those things.

You made decisions, you chose to live in certain ways, YOU produced the outcomes that you are experiencing.

Learn to take some responsibility.

Skyhigh

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2019, 12:04:11 PM »
FIRE is a spectrum.

My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.

I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying “here is that twenty bucks I owe you”.

He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 12:25:15 PM by Skyhigh »

Runrooster

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2019, 01:32:11 PM »
I donít like the stress of self employment.

People who are employees go home after work and leave it behind. They take actual vacations and spend money as if it comes from a never ending supply. Business owners commonly donít do those things.

It's not either/or.  Some employees are frugal and worry about getting laid off/sick/outsourced to China.  Some business owners trust employees to take over for a short vacation. If your personality is to work hard and be frugal, it will probably stay the same with a paycheck.  If you are truly FIRED then you can afford to spend the money in small ways at least -takeout Thai.  $6000 for a two day painting job sounds ridiculous, but I'm surprised you can't just find cheaper labor.  In many areas you can go to a local construction store (Home Depot) and get day laborers, who can at least mow lawns and paint houses.  If most of your excess work is truly menial, what about hiring your nephew?

That said, self employment does come with a different kind of stress and risk than corporate life.  Probably fewer hours, though i don't know how many properties you manage. 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2019, 01:37:02 PM by Runrooster »

Malcat

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Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2019, 01:41:46 PM »
FIRE is a spectrum.

My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.

I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying ďhere is that twenty bucks I owe youĒ.

He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point or how it detracts in any way from my point that FIRE itself isn't the problem. That the person who is living their life makes decisions that impact their future options.

What on earth does your 22 year old nephew knowing where to get free wifi have to do with that?