Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America

[Skyhigh]

Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...

Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.

You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.

So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?

@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.

For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.

Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?

Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.

Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.

EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.

I have.

Doing work on internal vs external locus of control, getting good therapy. Also consider mindfulness meditation and CBT activities.

OP at any point could have asked me about this after I shared how I managed to mourn losing my career that I loved and the loss of a lot of the function of my body, but he doesn't seem very interested.

Malcat,

I am interested and am very happy that you were able to find some peace. Perhaps you could try and put yourself into my situation? Besides, CBD and counseling are all taboo and illegal in my career objective.

[Metalcat]

CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

[Moustachienne]

You're not at all wrong that comfort with white collar norms is important in succeeding in many workplaces and careers and your analysis of how your background has affected your choices, actual and psychological, is very valid.

Ask A Manager blog has written several times about this issue, e.g.
https://www.askamanager.org/2012/12/ask-the-readers-what-cultural-things-do-you-need-to-know-in-a-white-collar-environment.html as have many other popular and academic sites, e.g. https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class

You might want to check out Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams by Alfred Lubrano for good insights into how hard it is to move between social milieus.

HOWEVER, this isn't a FIRE challenge, for you or for any others you want to teach/warn/advise.  It is an understanding yourself challenge, accepting the hand you're dealt challenge, and doing the work to be happier challenge. You need to be heard and acknowledged and to reframe your life story for yourself, which objectively seems to include a lot of success.  A good counselor can help you with that.

Good luck and I hope when you post next year it will be to report that you've found a way to integrate your history, issues, and challenges to move toward inner peace and happiness. Then you really will have something to teach others.

I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.

[FIRE 20/20]

People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

You have made it clear that you have never actually FIREd.  See the questions that I've asked repeatedly that you won't answer.  If you have actually FIREd why not answer my question?

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite.
...

This is not true.  If you think it is true, where is the evidence for it?  Large numbers of people here and many of my real-life FIRE friends grew up in working class families. 

What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

The reason you're getting the responses that you're interpreting this way is that you are coming to a place where people have happily achieved and are living as early retirees, and you are saying insulting things that we know to be false.  You have come to us with little but insults, such as, "FIRE at a young age leads to self-destructive behavior in my experience. FIRE at an older age accelerates the decrepitude process. People tend to stop challenging themselves. They stop growing. Bad habits creep in."  and "A lack of purpose is one. Endless wasted days are another. The devaluation of the freedoms accomplished is everpresent. Being out of sync with the rest of the world is lonely and often sad. People outside of FIRE hold a grudge against us. It can be difficult to maintain friendships. "

We who have experienced FIRE, unlike you, have real knowledge that those things DO NOT HAPPEN to most people who FIRE. 

If you come to a forum for people who love puppies and you start out by saying that puppies are terrible, what kind of a response do you expect to get?  If you then explain that you've never had puppies and say that puppies are terrible because they shoot laser beams from their eyes and kill children then people will explain to you that no, that is not something that puppies do.  And they'll probably call you an idiot.  Because when you tell people with real, actual experience with something that you know - despite never having experienced that thing - that it's terrible then people with real knowledge will get really frustrated talking with you. 

For 6 pages you have repeated incorrect statements and you seem impervious to changing your beliefs when presented with evidence that they're wrong.  When people try to help you find the real problem you ignore them.  Lost of people here have put in time and effort to help improve your life but you're rejecting it.  What do you expect the response to be when you behave that way?

[Financial.Velociraptor]

@Skyhigh

Maybe I'm an outlier but I'm not from any sort of elite background. I'm white/Caucasian and have that source of privilege but have none of the other things you think are essential to corporate success.

My mother grew up poor and migratory (I honestly believe grandma and grandpa were "running from the law") rarely spending more than 6 weeks in any one town.  Grandparents were both alcoholics.  My father didn't finish 8th grade (dropped out, lied to a Navy recruiter about his age and became a sailor).  He grew up in deep poverty in rural Louisiana and worked manual labor jobs all his life.  I was not so poor that I ever missed a meal and I always had shoes and winter coat to wear.  But I was poor enough that I had a Christmas where there was money for gifts for my brother but not for me.  We re-wrapped things I already owned and put them under the tree to put on a show for my brother. 

I was the first in my extended family to go to college.  I had to pay my own way through and I didn't have the historical family knowledge of how to get scholarships/internships/etc.  So I worked my ass off at minimum wage or barely better jobs and took 8 years to get a 4 year degree.  Since, I had worked exclusively for a time and attended school exclusively for a time, I discovered unstructured time was very valuable to me.  I was an Economics major and worked well with spreadsheets and modeled out a 10 year retirement plan.  I like to say I "failed well" because it took me 14 years.

I didn't know anyone in the corporate world or even anyone in the class of construction trades that was well off enough to own their trucks.  I didn't know how to properly comport myself at corporate social functions.  And I am weird, and awkward, and anxious, and have weird facial tics because I have Tourette's Syndrome.  But I ascended far enough up into the ranks to be placed on the "insider roster".  I rubbed elbows with the C-suite every quarter end (they were dependent on my analysis for the earnings call).  It was clear I wasn't one of "them" but they let me into their circle because I was useful.

Respectfully, (really - with RESPECT), I feel like I have NOT judged you or attacked you.  Sure, confronted you, out of concern for your needs.  I believe I have cared for you and tried to help you.  (Agree?)  You are against counseling but you could do some non counseling things that recenter your locus of control.  You could take up a meditation practice (5 minutes a day does wonders).  You could do a Core Values study - discover what makes you tick; and start taking positive steps to live your life according to your values.  You strike me as Agnostic so Scripture study is probably not appropriate. But you can study (and apply) Jung.  And you can read Thoreau's "Walden".  That is a cherished piece of American literature that is very FIRE appropriate.  I'll give you a hint for interpretation.  It isn't about a man who goes into the woods to fiddle fart around.  It's about a man who goes into HIMSELF (mostly to fiddle fart around.)  Therein, he finds his own personal truth and beauty.  There is a great deal of emotional/psychological/spiritual value in idle self introspection and reflection.  "Above all else this: Know Thyself." 

I've been RE for 9.5 years (since age 40).  And while, I'm not delighted like many here claim to be, I have a very deep sense of contentment.  Accounting never became my identity, was not who I was; it was something I did for money (b/c I was good at it) and it provided enough financial surplus to save for an exit to the unstructured time that is necessary for my happiness.

Again, respectfully, there are some important life lessons you are completely missing out on and some important intra-personal skills you lack.  Learnable skills.  Being stuck in misery for 20 years is not healthy.  I'll add that being stuck in misery for 20 years is also a CHOICE.  And for an American it is really wasteful of the very special opportunities you have been given. 

[Metalcat]

I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.

Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.

You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.

I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.

In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.

You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.

So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.

[Villanelle]

Pilot hiring is at crazy high levels.  I have a chart that I can't get to post correctly but the Majors, Legacies, and Cargo are expected to hire ~10,000 people in 2022.  And the regionals even more than that.  If it is your dream, do it.  But it sounds to me more like you enjoy being a martyr to your dream than actually having it.  You enjoy wallowing in the mess of all the barriers to that dream. 

And yeah, CBT (aka "therapy"  not "the stuff made from marijuana" ) is perfectly allowed for pilots. 

And are you 65 years old?  No?  Then you aren't too old. 

You have excuse after excuse.  And if you look at those things and think they are too unsurmountable or unpleasant, there's nothing wrong with that.  But in that case, you should embrace the fact that you are *Choosing* not to do that thing.  It's not some uncontrollable force that has plowed you over.  You are making a choice because while there are things about that job that appeal to you, there are more things that detract from it.  That doesn't mean you can't feel disappointment, but focus on the reasons you step away from it and the upsides.  Maybe you don't want to be away from family, especially while you wait to get back up in seniority and pick your routes.  Maybe you don't want to move your family or do the "fly to my route" thing.  Whatever they are, you are *choosing* something other than that, and that's what you should focus on, not what you don't have. 

Don't make yourself a martyr to your own choices.  It's a recipe for unhappiness, and based on your posts, you've prepared that dish to perfection. 

[shuffler]

As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.  I eagerly await your arrows.

For never was a story of more woe, than this of Skyhigh, the non-CEO.

[ysette9]

I’ve had jobs that have required security clearances (Secret, TS/SCI) and counseling has not been a problem. It was something I acknowledged on background applications and as long as it was related to “grief“ I never got a second question.

I think l understand more where the OP is coming from and what the problem is. This doesn’t have anything to do with FIRE at all but it is class envy and a sense of missing dreams. OP grew up blue collar and had dreams of becoming white collar. “White collar” being defined by his own definition that includes a high powered corporate career. He feels like FIRE isn’t the reward after working and saving but missing out on the white collar dream and getting sent back to a blue collar existence.

I don’t have anything useful for that except to reiterate what everyone else has been saying: go talk to a professional. Maybe you can work through this and get to a point of figuring out how to get what you’ve wanted or learning to be happy with the great things you have achieved and the enviable you are already in.

Perhaps it is a class thing where white collar people feel more comfortable not having looking rich or professional from the outside, like Mark Zuckerberg bumming around in hjs hoodies because he knows he is rich and successful? I know I had big desires for nice clothes and name brand purses and all of that when I had no money to my name. The more my net worth grows the more I want to wear yoga pants and socks with holes in them and just not care what anyone thinks.

[Metalcat]

I’ve had jobs that have required security clearances (Secret, TS/SCI) and counseling has not been a problem. It was something I acknowledged on background applications and as long as it was related to “grief“ I never got a second question.

I think l understand more where the OP is coming from and what the problem is. This doesn’t have anything to do with FIRE at all but it is class envy and a sense of missing dreams. OP grew up blue collar and had dreams of becoming white collar. “White collar” being defined by his own definition that includes a high powered corporate career. He feels like FIRE isn’t the reward after working and saving but missing out on the white collar dream and getting sent back to a blue collar existence.

I don’t have anything useful for that except to reiterate what everyone else has been saying: go talk to a professional. Maybe you can work through this and get to a point of figuring out how to get what you’ve wanted or learning to be happy with the great things you have achieved and the enviable you are already in.

Perhaps it is a class thing where white collar people feel more comfortable not having looking rich or professional from the outside, like Mark Zuckerberg bumming around in hjs hoodies because he knows he is rich and successful? I know I had big desires for nice clothes and name brand purses and all of that when I had no money to my name. The more my net worth grows the more I want to wear yoga pants and socks with holes in them and just not care what anyone thinks.

Counselling was also never a problem for mine or DH's security clearance, our reasons were always listed as "maintenance"

Also, yes, obviously OP's issue is missing out on his dreams, but he blames FIRE because according to him, it's basically impossible to feel motivated to accomplish anything substantial professionally without the gun to his head of needing the money to survive.

Early in this thread he made it very clear that the reason his dreams haven't been fulfilled is because it's just too easy not to when you have a lot of money.

THAT is how he thinks FIRE has ruined his life.

[Villanelle]

I’ve had jobs that have required security clearances (Secret, TS/SCI) and counseling has not been a problem. It was something I acknowledged on background applications and as long as it was related to “grief“ I never got a second question.

I think l understand more where the OP is coming from and what the problem is. This doesn’t have anything to do with FIRE at all but it is class envy and a sense of missing dreams. OP grew up blue collar and had dreams of becoming white collar. “White collar” being defined by his own definition that includes a high powered corporate career. He feels like FIRE isn’t the reward after working and saving but missing out on the white collar dream and getting sent back to a blue collar existence.

I don’t have anything useful for that except to reiterate what everyone else has been saying: go talk to a professional. Maybe you can work through this and get to a point of figuring out how to get what you’ve wanted or learning to be happy with the great things you have achieved and the enviable you are already in.

Perhaps it is a class thing where white collar people feel more comfortable not having looking rich or professional from the outside, like Mark Zuckerberg bumming around in hjs hoodies because he knows he is rich and successful? I know I had big desires for nice clothes and name brand purses and all of that when I had no money to my name. The more my net worth grows the more I want to wear yoga pants and socks with holes in them and just not care what anyone thinks.

Counselling was also never a problem for mine or DH's security clearance, our reasons were always listed as "maintenance"

Also, yes, obviously OP's issue is missing out on his dreams, but he blames FIRE because according to him, it's basically impossible to feel motivated to accomplish anything substantial professionally without the gun to his head of needing the money to survive.

Early in this thread he made it very clear that the reason his dreams haven't been fulfilled is because it's just too easy not to when you have a lot of money.

THAT is how he thinks FIRE has ruined his life.

Yes, and the irony of the bolded is that clearly he aspires to be wealthy, and yet the truly wealthy push toward dreams, take employment risks, and accomplish things even though they never need to earn a penny.  Sure, there are examples of trust fund kids who might be exceptions, but in generally, the super-rich people I've known serve on boards and starts businesses and run non-profits and teach in their communities, even though they need never earn a penny. 

So he wants to be like the rich, and yet a defining characteristic of his life is that if he's not struggling financially, he's not motivated.  But IME, most rich people are extremely motivated to contribute and create. So he needs to be poor to be motivated, yet what he truly wants is to be rich.  But being rich sucks his motivation, and he also really wants to be motivated. It's an ugly--yet entirely fixable--loop. 

[lutorm]

This thread makes me think of these quotes from Epictetus:

Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command, and, in one word, whatever are not our actions. The things in our control are by nature free, unrestrained, unhindered; but those not in our control are weak, slavish, restrained, belonging to others. Remember, then, that if you suppose that things which are slavish by nature are also free, and that what belongs to others is your own, then you will be hindered. You will lament, you will be disturbed, and you will find fault both with gods and men. But if you suppose that only to be your own which is your own, and what belongs to others such as it really is, then no one will ever compel you or restrain you. Further, you will find fault with no one or accuse no one. You will do nothing against your will. No one will hurt you, you will have no enemies, and you not be harmed.

It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.

You feel like the world has injured you. But the world just happens, it does not have intent. Things will happen, and we only have control over how we think about and respond to them.

[friedmmj]

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

I eagerly await your arrows.

I enjoyed a Nicholas Cage movie over the weekend called "The Family Man".  I think you should watch it.  The premise is that a guy took a path after college and became a fabulously wealthy business tycoon.  He gets sucked into one of those Hollywood fantasy plots where his life suddenly does a 180 and he is forced to live as a "regular" guy in the suburbs and comes to realize how much better it really is.

[Skyhigh]

CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.   

[charis]

Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.

[boarder42]

Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.

Hahaha. "forced" maybe the second biggest lie the op is telling themselves.

[Metalcat]

CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

Forgive me if I don't take your word on it. I find it hard to believe that an entire, massive industry would hold such an archaic and dangerous position as being opposed to its employees getting therapy. That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
(But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are correct while I look it up myself)

Also, as I said already, if you paid out of pocket for therapy, your employer wouldn't even likely be entitled to know about it. For fuck's sake, even a decent coach would probably do you a world of good, and there's absolutely no way the aviation industry would have any right to know that you sought out coaching.

Basically, if you wanted help with being happier in life, you could easily get it.

Also, I am a trained medical professional with extensive training in psychology AND training clinical counselling. In no way is my assessment that you should seek therapy a frivolous or misguided one.

No one needs to be mentally ill to benefit from counselling. The vast majority of people who seek therapy are not mentally ill, just struggling with the normal challenges of life.

You have openly admitted many, many times that you are unhappy and dissatisfied with your life. That makes you the PERFECT candidate for counselling.

Even if I TOTALLY agreed with you about the cause of your misery, I would STILL recommend counselling for you. STRONGLY.

ETA: a quick google indicates that the issue for American pilots is not that they can't get counselling, it's that being diagnosed with a mental illness could be problematic for their careers. But as I said, you don't need to have a mental illness to benefit from counselling.

The catch 22 for working pilots though is that they can't get referrals to counsellors *within their insurance* without a diagnosis.

All in all though, it doesn't look like there's any barrier for an out of work pilot who doesn't have a significant mental illness to seek maintenance counselling to better improve their capacity to enjoy life and resolve their pesky, toxic external locus of control issues.

[Skyhigh]

CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

Forgive me if I don't take your word on it. I find it hard to believe that an entire, massive industry would hold such an archaic and dangerous position as being opposed to its employees getting therapy. That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
(But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are correct while I look it up myself)

Also, as I said already, if you paid out of pocket for therapy, your employer wouldn't even likely be entitled to know about it. For fuck's sake, even a decent coach would probably do you a world of good, and there's absolutely no way the aviation industry would have any right to know that you sought out coaching.

Basically, if you wanted help with being happier in life, you could easily get it.

Also, I am a trained medical professional with extensive training in psychology AND training clinical counselling. In no way is my assessment that you should seek therapy a frivolous or misguided one.

No one needs to be mentally ill to benefit from counselling. The vast majority of people who seek therapy are not mentally ill, just struggling with the normal challenges of life.

You have openly admitted many, many times that you are unhappy and dissatisfied with your life. That makes you the PERFECT candidate for counselling.

Even if I TOTALLY agreed with you about the cause of your misery, I would STILL recommend counselling for you. STRONGLY.

ETA: a quick google indicates that the issue for American pilots is not that they can't get counselling, it's that being diagnosed with a mental illness could be problematic for their careers. But as I said, you don't need to have a mental illness to benefit from counselling.

The catch 22 for working pilots though is that they can't get referrals to counsellors *within their insurance* without a diagnosis.

All in all though, it doesn't look like there's any barrier for an out of work pilot who doesn't have a significant mental illness to seek maintenance counselling to better improve their capacity to enjoy life and resolve their pesky, toxic external locus of control issues.

Malcat,

Even in Europe if a pilot seeks help they are risking losing their medical. No one says that you can't seek help, however, once you do you then are in a position of having to defend yourself against a huge government entity who has no interest in helping you. It is a huge problem. There are political groups in the USA that are trying to force reform.

I had a buddy who fell off the roof and was prescribed opioids during his recovery. As a result, the FAA had him prove that he wasn't a drug addict. He worked in law enforcement and did not even need to take the medication. It is the way the government works. Guilty until proven innocent.

[Kris]

CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

1) You are not FIREd, nor have you ever been FIREd.

2) FIRE is not a fantasy, and you show yourself to be remarkably tone deaf, among other things, to be saying it is to a forum FULL of people who, unlike yourself, are in fact FIREd, and happily so.

3) The reason people are suggesting therapy (and frankly, we can do without your condescension toward those with "mental issues") is that you are presenting with many of the classic signs of depression. It can be hard for people in the midst of depression to see it in themselves, while outside observers can see it clearly.

[Metalcat]

CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

Forgive me if I don't take your word on it. I find it hard to believe that an entire, massive industry would hold such an archaic and dangerous position as being opposed to its employees getting therapy. That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
(But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are correct while I look it up myself)

Also, as I said already, if you paid out of pocket for therapy, your employer wouldn't even likely be entitled to know about it. For fuck's sake, even a decent coach would probably do you a world of good, and there's absolutely no way the aviation industry would have any right to know that you sought out coaching.

Basically, if you wanted help with being happier in life, you could easily get it.

Also, I am a trained medical professional with extensive training in psychology AND training clinical counselling. In no way is my assessment that you should seek therapy a frivolous or misguided one.

No one needs to be mentally ill to benefit from counselling. The vast majority of people who seek therapy are not mentally ill, just struggling with the normal challenges of life.

You have openly admitted many, many times that you are unhappy and dissatisfied with your life. That makes you the PERFECT candidate for counselling.

Even if I TOTALLY agreed with you about the cause of your misery, I would STILL recommend counselling for you. STRONGLY.

ETA: a quick google indicates that the issue for American pilots is not that they can't get counselling, it's that being diagnosed with a mental illness could be problematic for their careers. But as I said, you don't need to have a mental illness to benefit from counselling.

The catch 22 for working pilots though is that they can't get referrals to counsellors *within their insurance* without a diagnosis.

All in all though, it doesn't look like there's any barrier for an out of work pilot who doesn't have a significant mental illness to seek maintenance counselling to better improve their capacity to enjoy life and resolve their pesky, toxic external locus of control issues.

Malcat,

Even in Europe if a pilot seeks help they are risking losing their medical. No one says that you can't seek help, however, once you do you then are in a position of having to defend yourself against a huge government entity who has no interest in helping you. It is a huge problem. There are political groups in the USA that are trying to force reform.

I had a buddy who fell off the roof and was prescribed opioids during his recovery. As a result, the FAA had him prove that he wasn't a drug addict. He worked in law enforcement and did not even need to take the medication. It is the way the government works. Guilty until proven innocent.

Way to selectively ignore almost everything I wrote in my post.

I honestly don't think you read what I put effort into writing.

[youngwildandfree]

CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

You can replace the acronym "FIRE" with the word "freedom" and this post would read identically.

My understanding is you came here to think through your dissatisfaction with life and hoped we could provide you tools for building happiness. Therapy would be a better method than posting here.

I find your dream a bit perplexing on its own to be honest. I know dozens of pilots and consider some good friends. All of them complain that the job is rather boring. It's most similar to driving a bus.

[Skyhigh]

@Skyhigh

Maybe I'm an outlier but I'm not from any sort of elite background. I'm white/Caucasian and have that source of privilege but have none of the other things you think are essential to corporate success.

My mother grew up poor and migratory (I honestly believe grandma and grandpa were "running from the law") rarely spending more than 6 weeks in any one town.  Grandparents were both alcoholics.  My father didn't finish 8th grade (dropped out, lied to a Navy recruiter about his age and became a sailor).  He grew up in deep poverty in rural Louisiana and worked manual labor jobs all his life.  I was not so poor that I ever missed a meal and I always had shoes and winter coat to wear.  But I was poor enough that I had a Christmas where there was money for gifts for my brother but not for me.  We re-wrapped things I already owned and put them under the tree to put on a show for my brother. 

I was the first in my extended family to go to college.  I had to pay my own way through and I didn't have the historical family knowledge of how to get scholarships/internships/etc.  So I worked my ass off at minimum wage or barely better jobs and took 8 years to get a 4 year degree.  Since, I had worked exclusively for a time and attended school exclusively for a time, I discovered unstructured time was very valuable to me.  I was an Economics major and worked well with spreadsheets and modeled out a 10 year retirement plan.  I like to say I "failed well" because it took me 14 years.

I didn't know anyone in the corporate world or even anyone in the class of construction trades that was well off enough to own their trucks.  I didn't know how to properly comport myself at corporate social functions.  And I am weird, and awkward, and anxious, and have weird facial tics because I have Tourette's Syndrome.  But I ascended far enough up into the ranks to be placed on the "insider roster".  I rubbed elbows with the C-suite every quarter end (they were dependent on my analysis for the earnings call).  It was clear I wasn't one of "them" but they let me into their circle because I was useful.

Respectfully, (really - with RESPECT), I feel like I have NOT judged you or attacked you.  Sure, confronted you, out of concern for your needs.  I believe I have cared for you and tried to help you.  (Agree?)  You are against counseling but you could do some non counseling things that recenter your locus of control.  You could take up a meditation practice (5 minutes a day does wonders).  You could do a Core Values study - discover what makes you tick; and start taking positive steps to live your life according to your values.  You strike me as Agnostic so Scripture study is probably not appropriate. But you can study (and apply) Jung.  And you can read Thoreau's "Walden".  That is a cherished piece of American literature that is very FIRE appropriate.  I'll give you a hint for interpretation.  It isn't about a man who goes into the woods to fiddle fart around.  It's about a man who goes into HIMSELF (mostly to fiddle fart around.)  Therein, he finds his own personal truth and beauty.  There is a great deal of emotional/psychological/spiritual value in idle self introspection and reflection.  "Above all else this: Know Thyself." 

I've been RE for 9.5 years (since age 40).  And while, I'm not delighted like many here claim to be, I have a very deep sense of contentment.  Accounting never became my identity, was not who I was; it was something I did for money (b/c I was good at it) and it provided enough financial surplus to save for an exit to the unstructured time that is necessary for my happiness.

Again, respectfully, there are some important life lessons you are completely missing out on and some important intra-personal skills you lack.  Learnable skills.  Being stuck in misery for 20 years is not healthy.  I'll add that being stuck in misery for 20 years is also a CHOICE.  And for an American it is really wasteful of the very special opportunities you have been given.

Thank you FV, I greatly appreciate everything that you write. My professional goals are not within my ability to control. I could not stop a recession. I am not in control of my employer's outcome. I can't make it rain.

My family needed a source of income. My employees need their jobs. Often in life, we get backed into a corner and have to concede. I stopped trying to go through doors that were closed to me and started to accept the opportunities at hand. It made all the difference. I was able to provide a good life for my family and all it cost me was my dream.

I am good at RE investing, but it does not mean that it was my dream to be mowing lawns, cleaning up after college kids, and shoveling snow. I have been involved with RE my whole life.  I became a realtor at 18 and quickly abandoned that for the better life that a college education promised. My expectation was to be involved with RE investing but my goal was to live the life of an urban professional. I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

[Kris]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at how this guy has 100% NO IDEA what FIRE even means.

[youngwildandfree]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at how this guy has 100% NO IDEA what FIRE even means.

Truth. Needing to work a job/run a business you hate to support those you love is a sad and overwhelmingly common story. It's not FIRE.

[boarder42]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at how this guy has 100% NO IDEA what FIRE even means.

That's why the effort I put into posts here is growing infinitely smaller.

Where my pitty party at!!!

WHERRRRRRRESITAT!!!!

[Skyhigh]

I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.

Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.

You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.

I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.

In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.

You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.

So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.

Malcat,

I don't doubt that in a holistic sense I do have everything that I need. We are living a good life in a safe part of the world. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family to a fantastic degree. However, it is my belief that dissatisfaction is the mother of all progress. Show me an artist that is satisfied and you will see someone who is past their best accomplishments. Had I been satisfied to remain employed as a gas station attendant then there I would have remained.

 “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.” ~ Ernest Hemingway

Doing nothing is not a worthy goal. Striving to underachieve is not a virtue. The concept of retirement is a recent development in human history. It is not natural. Our purpose should be more than to exist without having to produce anything of value to the outside world. I don't believe that it is healthy.

Often we don't realize the full consequences of our life choices until we are older and can take stock. I am reaching an age where the cost is becoming more apparent. My children wanted to watch the movie "Star Trek Generations" last weekend. A major theme in that film is about the opportunity cost of the choices made in life. Primary characters were lamenting their career versus personal life choices. I am not unusual. It is a common situation. 

I am bummed is all. I have ambition, drive, and a will to suceed.

[Metalcat]

I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.

Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.

You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.

I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.

In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.

You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.

So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.

Malcat,

I don't doubt that in a holistic sense I do have everything that I need. We are living a good life in a safe part of the world. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family to a fantastic degree. However, it is my belief that dissatisfaction is the mother of all progress. Show me an artist that is satisfied and you will see someone who is past their best accomplishments. Had I been satisfied to remain employed as a gas station attendant then there I would have remained.

Your belief is wrong, I grew up in a community of artists, many are among the happiest people I know because they are pursuing their dreams.

 “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.” ~ Ernest Hemingway

Hemingway is also pretty full of shit. Pretty much all of my friends have doctorates, and they're not on average any less happy than the general population, although the general population isn't very happy. Probably because they don't get proper therapy ;)


Doing nothing is not a worthy goal. Striving to underachieve is not a virtue. The concept of retirement is a recent development in human history. It is not natural. Our purpose should be more than to exist without having to produce anything of value to the outside world. I don't believe that it is healthy.

You keep repeating this, and yet many people in retirement do amazing, meaningful things. Being financially independent doesn't hold anyone back from doing meaningful things, being lazy and self defeating sure does though.

Often we don't realize the full consequences of our life choices until we are older and can take stock. I am reaching an age where the cost is becoming more apparent. My children wanted to watch the movie "Star Trek Generations" last weekend. A major theme in that film is about the opportunity cost of the choices made in life. Primary characters were lamenting their career versus personal life choices. I am not unusual. It is a common situation. 

Yep, I've made TONS of terrible decisions. I keep moving forward.

I am bummed is all. I have ambition, drive, and a will to suceed.

If this was true, you would be doing something about it other than whining. Do you actually want advice? It doesn't seem like it.

[ysette9]

Again, you don’t understand FIRE. No where has anyone ever said that FIRE is about doing nothing. NEVER. You keep insisting that and everyone on this thread keeps telling you that isn’t what it is and that isn’t what us FIREd people do. Can you please drop that?

[Financial.Velociraptor]

Thank you FV, I greatly appreciate everything that you write. My professional goals are not within my ability to control. I could not stop a recession. I am not in control of my employer's outcome. I can't make it rain.

@Skyhigh

I'm amazed and frustrated.  You are still not groking.  What IS in your control?  What positive steps can you take TODAY to improve your personal life satisfaction?  Do something; anything, to get your energy unstuck.  I know you cherish work ethic.  But in this area of personal emotional care you are being enormously lazy.  It isn't healthy to accept a default lifestyle that makes you miserable and fail to take action for over two decades.  You could have liquidated your real estate empire and bought/financed a Super King Air and started a charter service probably a decade ago.  Could have started a restaurant empire.  Could have done about a zillion things that would give you more satisfaction than mowing lawns.  Hell, you could started a landscaping service so it is justified to pay someone to mow your properties. Could have built out a property management company, with enough revenue to support hiring a general  manager and gained enough freedom to pursue a career as an acrobatic pilot. 

I have a secret. I once dreamed of being an airline pilot too.  I got about 35 hours into my PP training before I decided I was getting airsick too often, having too much trouble finding airports, and noticed my vision was declining (big negative for a commercial airline pilot in 1993), before giving up and ultimately becoming an accountant.    I did something much less glamorous than I had hoped.  It didn't make me miserable.  I CHOSE to find satisfaction in life.  You CHOOSE to be miserable and it is very unhealthy. 

Notice how malcat keeps circling back to having an 'external locus of control?"  She is hitting the nail on the head.  You are not helpless.  You have far more latitude to chart your own course than 99% of the people who have ever lived.  Just because you are "keeping busy" with RE doesn't mean you are being "productive".  You need to be making better/smarter use of your time.

You deserve to be happy.   Let me say it a again: you DESERVE to be happy.  And you can be, but you have to take action.  Lots of people have suggested therapy and I get that is problematic for you.  I have given you half a dozen other tools you can pursue to become more emotionally well adjusted.  But so far, it looks like you choose misery over action.  Observing that makes me sad. 

[Metalcat]

Thank you FV, I greatly appreciate everything that you write. My professional goals are not within my ability to control. I could not stop a recession. I am not in control of my employer's outcome. I can't make it rain.

@Skyhigh

I'm amazed and frustrated.  You are still not groking.  What IS in your control?  What positive steps can you take TODAY to improve your personal life satisfaction?  Do something; anything, to get your energy unstuck.  I know you cherish work ethic.  But in this area of personal emotional care you are being enormously lazy.  It isn't healthy to accept a default lifestyle that makes you miserable and fail to take action for over two decades.  You could have liquidated your real estate empire and bought/financed a Super King Air and started a charter service probably a decade ago.  Could have started a restaurant empire.  Could have done about a zillion things that would give you more satisfaction than mowing lawns.  Hell, you could started a landscaping service so it is justified to pay someone to mow your properties. Could have built out a property management company, with enough revenue to support hiring a general  manager and gained enough freedom to pursue a career as an acrobatic pilot. 

I have a secret. I once dreamed of being an airline pilot too.  I got about 35 hours into my PP training before I decided I was getting airsick too often, having too much trouble finding airports, and noticed my vision was declining (big negative for a commercial airline pilot in 1993), before giving up and ultimately becoming an accountant.    I did something much less glamorous than I had hoped.  It didn't make me miserable.  I CHOSE to find satisfaction in life.  You CHOOSE to be miserable and it is very unhealthy. 

Notice how malcat keeps circling back to having an 'external locus of control?"  She is hitting the nail on the head.  You are not helpless.  You have far more latitude to chart your own course than 99% of the people who have ever lived.  Just because you are "keeping busy" with RE doesn't mean you are being "productive".  You need to be making better/smarter use of your time.

You deserve to be happy.   Let me say it a again: you DESERVE to be happy.  And you can be, but you have to take action.  Lots of people have suggested therapy and I get that is problematic for you.  I have given you half a dozen other tools you can pursue to become more emotionally well adjusted.  But so far, it looks like you choose misery over action.  Observing that makes me sad.

I've honestly never made this little traction with someone like this before.

It's fascinating. Normally I can crack nuts like this in a matter of minutes. I've never seen anything like it, and I've tackled A LOT of resistant personalities. In fact, it's a huge part of my professional reputation, that I can get through to the most stubborn patients and get them to take better care of themselves with my patented brand of yelling at people.

Usually they crack though and I can move on to the compassionate phase. But this nut just won't fucking crack!

[Skyhigh]

Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...

Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.

You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.

So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?

@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.

For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.

Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?

Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.

Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.

EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.

I have.

Doing work on internal vs external locus of control, getting good therapy. Also consider mindfulness meditation and CBT activities.

OP at any point could have asked me about this after I shared how I managed to mourn losing my career that I loved and the loss of a lot of the function of my body, but he doesn't seem very interested.

I'll go.  I lost my career when I became a trailing spouse and moved overseas.  I had a choice, but that choice would have been "live apart from my spouse for 2.5 years" (which turned out to be about 10 years) and that just wasn't viable.

It's been hard.  We don't have children.  I was always a career person.  And then... I wasn't.

I spent a lot of time reframing.  What was important to me?  What did I think made someone a good human?  What did I truly value?  I asked these questions, and with each answer I asked "why" or "how" or some other question that dug to a deeper, more philosophical place.  And that really helped me see what I valued, and who I wanted to be as a person--what mark I wanted to make on the world.  It turns out that none of the answers had anything to do with employment, and a lot of my struggles were more about ego than actual fulfillment from work.  I'd made a lot out of being a "career woman".  That was my plan for my life.  So when it went away, I floundered a bit, and my ego was left a bit unanchored, until I found new, more meaningful things to anchor it to.  It's tough to articulate exactly how that happened, but it was just  lot of self-questioning, and refusing to accepts my mind's lazy, automatic responses. 

~~~

OP, if you were laid off from the airlines (not fired or let go for cause), why don't you go back?  They are hiring like crazy.  There was a bit of a pause during the height of Covid, but they are once again scooping up every semi-qualified body.  So why not go back to the airlines?

Hi,

The airlines are hiring. I have been consistently applying to legacy airlines since 1995 with some near-miss opportunities.

There are lower-rung airline and other aviation jobs where I burned my youth, but the dream was always to spend my career at a mainline carrier. Over the last 30 years, the legacy airlines really didn't hire all that many. Just recently however they are facing a massive shortage and an epic hiring boom is beginning.

Most legacy airlines really don't want to hire older pilots. Last summer I reached a birthday milestone that I determined was an appropriate age to give up. I am bummed about it. I missed the party in the early 1990s and now I am too old.

[Skyhigh]

Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.

You have a good idea there. However, my main experience is with FIRE. I grew up with it. I have clients whom I help to achieve FIRE. I have seen the benefits and drawbacks. It is my main profession.

[Kris]

I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.

Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.

You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.

I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.

In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.

You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.

So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.

Malcat,

I don't doubt that in a holistic sense I do have everything that I need. We are living a good life in a safe part of the world. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family to a fantastic degree. However, it is my belief that dissatisfaction is the mother of all progress. Show me an artist that is satisfied and you will see someone who is past their best accomplishments. Had I been satisfied to remain employed as a gas station attendant then there I would have remained.

Your belief is wrong, I grew up in a community of artists, many are among the happiest people I know because they are pursuing their dreams.

 “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.” ~ Ernest Hemingway

Hemingway is also pretty full of shit. Pretty much all of my friends have doctorates, and they're not on average any less happy than the general population, although the general population isn't very happy. Probably because they don't get proper therapy ;)


Doing nothing is not a worthy goal. Striving to underachieve is not a virtue. The concept of retirement is a recent development in human history. It is not natural. Our purpose should be more than to exist without having to produce anything of value to the outside world. I don't believe that it is healthy.

You keep repeating this, and yet many people in retirement do amazing, meaningful things. Being financially independent doesn't hold anyone back from doing meaningful things, being lazy and self defeating sure does though.

Often we don't realize the full consequences of our life choices until we are older and can take stock. I am reaching an age where the cost is becoming more apparent. My children wanted to watch the movie "Star Trek Generations" last weekend. A major theme in that film is about the opportunity cost of the choices made in life. Primary characters were lamenting their career versus personal life choices. I am not unusual. It is a common situation. 

Yep, I've made TONS of terrible decisions. I keep moving forward.

I am bummed is all. I have ambition, drive, and a will to suceed.

If this was true, you would be doing something about it other than whining. Do you actually want advice? It doesn't seem like it.

Hemingway was also a deeply disturbed man who emotionally and physically abused those around him. His belief that unhappiness was a mark of his intelligence was a defense mechanism to cope with a debilitating, deep-seated insecurity.

Plus, he was a miserable drunk who refused to take responsibility for himself or for the harm he caused. He also offed himself.

So, this quote that OP has posted twice already in this thread is not exactly sending us the message he is probably hoping it sends.

[lhamo]

The more I think about it the more relieved I am that Skyhigh never made it as a commercial airline pilot.  There is something seriously off with his willingness/ability to communicate.  I would not want to have somebody like this flying a plane I was on, just sayin....

[sui generis]

CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

Hon, it's not your opposition to FIRE that has people recommending you pursue therapy.

[Villanelle]

CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

That's patently untrue. 

https://aviatorshq.com/can-pilots-see-a-therapist-psychologist/

pilots can seek the help of a mental health professional without the fear of it having a a detrimental affect on their ability to hold a medical certificate. Item 19 on the FAA Form 8500-8, stated that visits to mental health professionals were reportable ONLY if it was due to alcohol/substance abuse OR resulted in a personal psychiatric diagnosis. Pilots who are functioning well but are seeking to improve their situation have no obligation to report that form of counseling.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

I've honestly never made this little traction with someone like this before.

Skyhigh is enormously STUCK!  I know a guy who is almost as deeply stuck in a completely different manner.  But he at least recognizes his shit is borked and is open to suggestions.

I take it you (malcat) are not spiritually oriented?  I have no fewer than four basket cases I'm working with right now.  Never in my life have I seen so many instances of destructive Spiritual Immaturity. (And I mean true spirituality, not being cool with a church clique).  I think the combination of political division and Covid is wearing on people to the point of breaking.   Anyway, point is, I see your spirit of service and promise you that Christ honors you for that.  Perhaps moreso if it is a service absent of faith as that is truly selfless.  You can publicly denounce me as "sort of stupid" if you reject that.  I will not diminish my respect for your expertise and experience. 

OP needs a wake-up kick in the groin.  But OP also needs compassion - clearly suffering. 

[Metalcat]

I've honestly never made this little traction with someone like this before.

Skyhigh is enormously STUCK!  I know a guy who is almost as deeply stuck in a completely different manner.  But he at least recognizes his shit is borked and is open to suggestions.

I take it you (malcat) are not spiritually oriented? I have no fewer than four basket cases I'm working with right now.  Never in my life have I seen so many instances of destructive Spiritual Immaturity. (And I mean true spirituality, not being cool with a church clique).  I think the combination of political division and Covid is wearing on people to the point of breaking.   Anyway, point is, I see your spirit of service and promise you that Christ honors you for that.  Perhaps moreso if it is a service absent of faith as that is truly selfless.  You can publicly denounce me as "sort of stupid" if you reject that.  I will not diminish my respect for your expertise and experience. 

OP needs a wake-up kick in the groin.  But OP also needs compassion - clearly suffering.

People often assume that about me. I have a very interesting relationship with faith and religion, and spent a lot of last year debating church doctrine with a study group of ministers.

OP absolutely needs compassion, because everyone does, but the line between compassion and enabling when someone is engaging in self destructive beliefs is very, very blurry.

[Financial.Velociraptor]

People often assume that (nonspiritual) about me. I have a very interesting relationship with faith and religion, and spent a lot of last year debating church doctrine with a study group of ministers.

OP absolutely needs compassion, because everyone does, but the line between compassion and enabling when someone is engaging in self destructive beliefs is very, very blurry.

Praise Christ (or the Diety of your choice) then!  I sense, intuit, [hand waving spiritual BS] - FEEL, that OP needs more compassion than mule-kicking at this moment.  I sense an enormous amount of unprocessed trauma, an enormous amount of self doubt. 

How do you feel about Jung?  I adore that approach to personal fulfillment.  Even though I do a really shitty job of applying Jung's lessons.  Shit, I do a really shitty job of applying Christ's lessons.  My faith is very scarred by negative experiences.  Damned if it isn't somehow still functional.  My prayers are offered in this moment to you and to Skyhigh; in the name of the Son of Man, who is Jesus the Christ, my personal Savior, forever and ever.  [Amen].

[charis]

Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.

You have a good idea there. However, my main experience is with FIRE. I grew up with it. I have clients whom I help to achieve FIRE. I have seen the benefits and drawbacks. It is my main profession.

No, I'm sorry, you are confused. This forum, if you can be bothered to read around, is geared toward people who are interested in becoming financially independent and retiring early.

That is not what you described growing up with. You described family members who worked and then suddenly retired without other interests or goals. You also described being laid off and being forced to work to provide for people. Neither of those things are FIRE for purposes of this forum.

Your position is not being rejected because people don't want to hear it. You don't want to hear the pushback.

[Metalcat]

People often assume that (nonspiritual) about me. I have a very interesting relationship with faith and religion, and spent a lot of last year debating church doctrine with a study group of ministers.

OP absolutely needs compassion, because everyone does, but the line between compassion and enabling when someone is engaging in self destructive beliefs is very, very blurry.

Praise Christ (or the Diety of your choice) then!  I sense, intuit, [hand waving spiritual BS] - FEEL, that OP needs more compassion than mule-kicking at this moment.  I sense an enormous amount of unprocessed trauma, an enormous amount of self doubt. 

How do you feel about Jung?  I adore that approach to personal fulfillment.  Even though I do a really shitty job of applying Jung's lessons.  Shit, I do a really shitty job of applying Christ's lessons.  My faith is very scarred by negative experiences.  Damned if it isn't somehow still functional.  My prayers are offered in this moment to you and to Skyhigh; in the name of the Son of Man, who is Jesus the Christ, my personal Savior, forever and ever.  [Amen].

If I were being paid to professionally handle OP, I would handle him differently.

But here, I get to be a human being, not a professional. And as a fellow human, I'm allowing my gobsmacked frustration to have some space.

It's not my job to fix OP, so I have space to be aggravated.

[Villanelle]

I do think OP needs and deserves compassion.  But I think he is so stubborn and entrenched in his victimhood and his refusal to be open to hearing anything that challenges his worldview that he's unable to receive either compassion or advice.

So to me, it seems like compassion in this case, unless it is accompanied with a hearty dose of harsh reality, is just enabling.

Interestingly, his posts remind me a great deal of an addict in my life.  This person's life is a mess, he is miserable, and he blames everything wrong with his life on outside influences when in fact he has control over so many of the things he hates, and many are a result of his bad decisions.  And none of it is so terribly messed up that it is irrecoverable (though admittedly in the addict's case, he's teetering on the point of no return), but because he is so determined to believe it is all out of his control, he can't take the reins and turn it all around.   His more interested in maintaining the narrative that all these bad things have happened to him than he is in actually making his life better and himself happy. 

And compassion at this point doesn't do that addict much good because it is just enables him to continue along his destructive path.  It's not that this man doesn't deserve compassion.  He does.  But compassion doesn't seem to be what best serves him, or at least not compassion alone. 

And yeah, the OP kinda reminds me of that man.

[jim555]

Confession Bear meme...

https://imgflip.com/i/5ymlnx

[FreshlyFIREd]

This post reminds me of my "career". I was a designer/draftsman. Early in my career, I wanted to land a job with the Fortune 500 companies. They had more job security, benefits, etc. Instead I could only land jobs with the engineering consultants. The job security was terrible at the consultants, huge cycles and swings, layoffs. I bounced between the consultants, and I could land jobs at the larger companies as a "contractor". I was always pissed, because the larger companies needed me, but would never 'direct hire' me.

So I was always frustrated, until I just accepted it. Then I learned about appreciating life as a contractor. I had less politics. I wasn't a threat to the 'directs'. I could get away with a lot of stuff the directs couldn't. When I got tired of the same old faces, boring convos, I would quit and move on to another 'contract position'.

The most awesome thing I benefitted from these contract positions: not borrowing money! If I had job security, I would have borrowed and spent. Because I didn't have security, I was fearful of borrowing money. I'm retired with money I can't spend. The directs I worked with are still working.

You just have to make the best of the cards you've been dealt.

[FIRE 20/20]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

[Telecaster]

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

I think we made a breakthrough here!   He OP is unhappy because he wasn't born into an elite family.   Since we can't change who our parents are, I guess the OP is screwed. 

[Skyhigh]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

[boarder42]

I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.

[Moustachienne]

"In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations."

Umm, most professional careers include A LOT of financial spreadsheets and negotiations, contract and other.  Add in project planning, performance evaluations, meetings, more meetings, etc.  You have an odd idea of what goes into a "professional career".

[Telecaster]

In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Are you on drugs?