Since you don't need money, you can ask for a $1 salary to see how they respond.
Why do you equate meaningful work with working in corporate America?
I bet there are a lot of nonprofits that would provide far more meaningful work for someone who doesn't actually need the money.
Or could it be that your disdain and distrust are coming through in the interviews?
If you are getting interviews, it is unlikely that your problem is an employment gap. They would filter for that prior to the interview stage.
Since you don't need money, you can ask for a $1 salary to see how they respond.It seems that employers want people who are on the financial hook. They like indentured servants who are afraid to lose their jobs due to financial need. It is my belief that they are looking for those that they can dominate and extort. My strategy is to try and project the opposite impression of being able to work for free.
Thanks though!
After years as an electrical design engineer for blue chip corporations I finally caved and became a manager. Honestly I would be a bit hesitant to hire someone who didn't really "need" the job. It is just one consideration among many. When the deadline approaches....is it the needless one who will work Saturday and Sunday, unpaid? Maybe/Maybe not. I saw plenty of people who could/should have retired just chatting and surfing the net hour after hour.
For some of us early retirement is simply glorious.
I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.
I am trying other similar positions. However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.
I am trying other similar positions. However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work. You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you. Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way. You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job.
Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement? Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?
I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.
I am trying other similar positions. However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work. You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you. Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way. You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job.
Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement? Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.
After years as an electrical design engineer for blue chip corporations I finally caved and became a manager. Honestly I would be a bit hesitant to hire someone who didn't really "need" the job. It is just one consideration among many. When the deadline approaches....is it the needless one who will work Saturday and Sunday, unpaid? Maybe/Maybe not. I saw plenty of people who could/should have retired just chatting and surfing the net hour after hour.
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?
Consider a dinner party. Everyone there usually discusses professional accomplishments, goals, past positions. Someone who has achieved FIRE can share the fence they mended or lawnmower they repaired. Not a meaningful use of time for those of us with advanced degrees and skill sets. Those who have achieved FIRE can not be reckless with their funds since they need it to last for decades. Those with careers can afford to blow their paycheck since there is another on the way in two weeks. Working seems to provide an abundance mentality.
I guess I am trying to improve my attitude through an attempt to reclaim my career dreams. I do not believe that FIRE is healthy place for most.
Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement? Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.
I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.
I am trying other similar positions. However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.
I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.
I am trying other similar positions. However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work. You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you. Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way. You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job.
Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement? Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.
Thank you for your input. :)
I currently work lower rung positions and have for some time. I am getting older. It is time for me to achieve my career objective position. No more volunteer stuff. I am through with supporting roles.
My industry is looking for fools to fill the lower rungs at a quarter of the wages. Accepting the lower jobs does not help after a while. I do network and go to several job fairs a year. I write letters and constantly apply to several companies.
I maintain a large network of similar older peers who are experiencing the same rejection. It seems there is an unseen method of getting the better positions that my peers and I am not privy too.
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?
It seems that if someone wants a career here then they must be crazy. I believe that endless days of self indulgent existence is not a good thing for younger people. To intentionally idle oneself and suspend their vital function to this world is not a good idea. To what end does it serve to cease being a contributing member of society?
It is not all that satisfying to be out of sync with the rest of the world. To be skiing on a Wednesday while everyone is at work loses its appeal very fast. Self esteem is linked to ones career. Satisfaction comes from completing a difficult task using all ones best gifts. FIRE is very depressing to most I have seen. It makes them take on bad habits, self destructive behaviors, and brings on depression.
Consider a dinner party. Everyone there usually discusses professional accomplishments, goals, past positions. Someone who has achieved FIRE can share the fence they mended or lawnmower they repaired. Not a meaningful use of time for those of us with advanced degrees and skill sets. Those who have achieved FIRE can not be reckless with their funds since they need it to last for decades. Those with careers can afford to blow their paycheck since there is another on the way in two weeks. Working seems to provide an abundance mentality.
I guess I am trying to improve my attitude through an attempt to reclaim my career dreams. I do not believe that FIRE is healthy place for most.
I feel your FIRE experience is out of step with the majority of people on this forum. Over on the Post-FI threads the consensus seems to be contentment, even joy at their lot in life. People constantly talk about how wonderful it is to be able to ski on a Wednesday when there are no lift lines, or go grocery shopping when no one else is there to fight for a parking spot.
This line struck me: "endless days of self indulgent existence" - maybe that is the root of your discontentment. No one here is advocating a vision of FI where you sit around and eat bonbons all day. MMM talks a lot about how satisfaction in life comes from hard work, physical and mental. It is just that FI allows you to do that on your own terms. So instead of a career you can work out and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and play in a community orchestra or sing in a choir and spend more time with your kids and go hiking/camping, and read all the books, and.... (yes, I am listing my personal wish list of things to do in FI). If you don't do anything meaningful with your time then you will end up bored and depressed. I think the pushback you are getting is that a career is certainly not the only way to do something meaningful with your time, and if you can't think of anything, then you should spend some time reexamining yourself.
That is a fair observation. But then if the issue is a desire to get ahead in a career, that is its own separate question unrelated to FIRE. It almost feels like the OP is blaming being FI for a lack of career progression.I feel your FIRE experience is out of step with the majority of people on this forum. Over on the Post-FI threads the consensus seems to be contentment, even joy at their lot in life. People constantly talk about how wonderful it is to be able to ski on a Wednesday when there are no lift lines, or go grocery shopping when no one else is there to fight for a parking spot.
This line struck me: "endless days of self indulgent existence" - maybe that is the root of your discontentment. No one here is advocating a vision of FI where you sit around and eat bonbons all day. MMM talks a lot about how satisfaction in life comes from hard work, physical and mental. It is just that FI allows you to do that on your own terms. So instead of a career you can work out and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and play in a community orchestra or sing in a choir and spend more time with your kids and go hiking/camping, and read all the books, and.... (yes, I am listing my personal wish list of things to do in FI). If you don't do anything meaningful with your time then you will end up bored and depressed. I think the pushback you are getting is that a career is certainly not the only way to do something meaningful with your time, and if you can't think of anything, then you should spend some time reexamining yourself.
The OP wants to spend his days furthering his career in corporate America. I don't see a thing wrong with that desire. Some people just want or need external direction and validation. The OP appears to be one of those people. More power to him, if that's the case.
The pushback seems to be that he is unwilling to take the necessary steps to advance his career. The path to a good corporate job is simple and in plain sight: Develop an in-demand skill set and become a top performer in your chosen field.
While simple, that path is seldom easy and usually requires doing things your peers are unwilling to do. Working both harder and smarter, professional development on your own time, taking challenging projects that test your abilities, taking shitty projects no one else wants, seeking out networking events, joining and leading professional organizations, mentoring others, etc. Most people don't want to do all that, so they wind up getting stuck where the OP is, at mid-level positions with little hope of advancement.
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.
Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.
You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.
Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.
You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?
Thank you very much. I do have professional career guides and the ideas they have are great but would mean risking the security we currently have. My business is reaching a point where I could take on that challenge however it is not fun to have to start over at the bottom especially when there are no assurances that it will produce the results I am after.
My angst comes from a sense of doors closing. The opportunity cost of FIRE is making itself known and I don't like it.
SkyHigh, I think what you’re missing is that most everyone in corporate America eventually finds themselves stalled somewhere on the promotion ladder. Very few make it to the high rungs. Just thinking about the engineering jobs I had, only about 1 in 10 would even be a first level manager. Perhaps after putting in 15 years that might be 1 in 5. There might be 5 first level managers reporting to a director, and 5-10 directors reporting to the VP of Engineering. So of about 500 engineers, only one is in a position to majorly influence the direction of the company. You’ve taken entry level positions, haven’t put in the years required to build political capital and network, and wonder why you haven’t reached the senior positions.
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.
Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.
You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?
Thank you very much. I do have professional career guides and the ideas they have are great but would mean risking the security we currently have. My business is reaching a point where I could take on that challenge however it is not fun to have to start over at the bottom especially when there are no assurances that it will produce the results I am after.
My angst comes from a sense of doors closing. The opportunity cost of FIRE is making itself known and I don't like it.
Are you f'ing kidding me with this? You are so unhappy in FIRE and so desperate for a corporate "wage slave" job that you are making multiple redundant posts across this forum, but because what you need to do to achieve your dream is "not fun" and a little uncertain you'd just rather sit around and complain more? Guess what? Pursuing your dreams is always uncertain and no one ever said it would be fun. In fact, I'm pretty sure people only ever talk about how hard it is.
Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one that is getting pretty sick and tired of your broad generalizations about FIRE. You need to learn to speak only from your experience and only on behalf of yourself until and unless you have significant data to back up your claims that FIRE is generally harmful. There are plenty of us that engaging our minds and bodies in ways we never have before, even when we were in high-powered corporate jobs that you've never been able to achieve. We've found meaning and happiness, value and connection, and your posting here about how wasteful it is to make a difference in one's community by volunteering or get out and do activities that are inarguably healthy for the mind and the body like hiking is so contrary to most human being's values that I almost wonder if you are some kind of AI with terrible programming.
I'm sorry that FIRE has been such a terrible experience for you. But please GTFO and do something about it instead of making so many redundant posts here. Talk about a waste of time and human potential...
Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?
Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?
This is literally my reality.
I'm trained as a highly specialized, highly technical procedural medical professional who has had to give up working with my hands. Those doors are closed.
As I already said, I worked very very hard to diversify my skills and generate opportunities that don't involve me utilizing my training, but still challenge and reward me.
I don't mow lawns or do manual labour of any sort.
I don't do any low skill tasks at all except around my own home. It's been a lot of hard work to get here, and no one told me how to do it. I hit a lot of blocks along the way, abandoned a lot of ideas, and adjusted to the realities of what my market actually wanted from me.
In what universe is managing properties the only work available in FIRE? I mean, you do know whose blog this forum belongs to right? You do know what Pete does with his time, right?
Plenty of people do great work that is rewarding in FIRE. FIRE doesn't have any negative consequences that you don't allow it to have.
You are the person failing to generate such opportunities for yourself. You are the person not thinking outside the box. You are the person who is hitting the exact same road block over and over and over again and refusing to find a way around it.
You do this every time. You conveniently curate the responses you get to match your version of reality where you are some kind of victim.
You aren't.
FIRE is not your problem.
As long as you keep imagining that it is, you will keep bashing your own head against the same barriers
Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?
This is literally my reality.
I'm trained as a highly specialized, highly technical procedural medical professional who has had to give up working with my hands. Those doors are closed.
As I already said, I worked very very hard to diversify my skills and generate opportunities that don't involve me utilizing my training, but still challenge and reward me.
I don't mow lawns or do manual labour of any sort.
I don't do any low skill tasks at all except around my own home. It's been a lot of hard work to get here, and no one told me how to do it. I hit a lot of blocks along the way, abandoned a lot of ideas, and adjusted to the realities of what my market actually wanted from me.
In what universe is managing properties the only work available in FIRE? I mean, you do know whose blog this forum belongs to right? You do know what Pete does with his time, right?
Plenty of people do great work that is rewarding in FIRE. FIRE doesn't have any negative consequences that you don't allow it to have.
You are the person failing to generate such opportunities for yourself. You are the person not thinking outside the box. You are the person who is hitting the exact same road block over and over and over again and refusing to find a way around it.
You do this every time. You conveniently curate the responses you get to match your version of reality where you are some kind of victim.
You aren't.
FIRE is not your problem.
As long as you keep imagining that it is, you will keep bashing your own head against the same barriers
Thank you.
All I can say is that FIRE can create its own kind of imprisonment. It's too good to leave but not very satisfying at times. I don't like some of the things that come with it; financial paranoia, cruel manual labor, lack of job satisfaction, loss of professional value, scarcity mentality, loneliness, boredom.... ect. I am certain that some people are able to find satisfying outlets in FIRE however in my experience the most common path to FIRE involves severe financial self-deprivation and demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer.
The barriers I face are self-created and a side effect of FIRE. Plenty of people here are looking at strategies that involve most of the things I have been dealing with for a long time now. Parts of it are not that appealing. A solid paycheck and benefits can look pretty good.
I have read much of Pete's blog. It all looks familiar to me. I haven't read much lately though. I will make the effort.
Update: I just took a look at Pete's blog and it seems like he does a lot of the same things. I build/remodel and manage real estate. My kids did not even know that pizza could be delivered until recently. We never go out to eat, no TV, and live a financially deprived life. Our cars are old. It's the only life I have known. Am I missing something?
On the upside: Most everything I work on is something that I own. I live where I want and largely how I want. My kids grew up without going to daycare. Since being laid off I have slept in my own bed and am not forced to travel much. I go to sleep when I am tired and get up when rested (unless the kids have school). I never get stuck in traffic jams. I am the master of my days. All it took in trade were my professional dreams and that bothers me at times.
You come across here as a total crackpot and no doubt the same to interviewers. I would have no interest whatsoever in boarding an aircraft flown by someone of your mental state.
Why don’t you sell all your real estate and start a flight service which you can manage and grow and maybe fly a few times yourself.
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military. Yes, you were unlucky in your timing. But it's been 10 years. There's no going back. Get over it. Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else.
And most of all STOP WHINING!!!! You have more options than 98% of people on the planet. Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military. Yes, you were unlucky in your timing. But it's been 10 years. There's no going back. Get over it. Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else.
And most of all STOP WHINING!!!! You have more options than 98% of people on the planet. Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?
You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams don’t quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.
My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:
FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.
I don’t like the stress of self employment.
People who are employees go home after work and leave it behind. They take actual vacations and spend money as if it comes from a never ending supply. Business owners commonly don’t do those things.
FIRE is a spectrum.
My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.
I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying “here is that twenty bucks I owe you”.
He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military. Yes, you were unlucky in your timing. But it's been 10 years. There's no going back. Get over it. Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else.
And most of all STOP WHINING!!!! You have more options than 98% of people on the planet. Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?
You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams don’t quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.
My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:
FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.
FIRE did absolutely none of those things.
You made decisions, you chose to live in certain ways, YOU produced the outcomes that you are experiencing.
Learn to take some responsibility.
FIRE is a culture.
I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.
Employment is also a culture. I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.
My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career. It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.
I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.
FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military. Yes, you were unlucky in your timing. But it's been 10 years. There's no going back. Get over it. Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else.
And most of all STOP WHINING!!!! You have more options than 98% of people on the planet. Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?
You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams don’t quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.
My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:
FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.
FIRE did absolutely none of those things.
You made decisions, you chose to live in certain ways, YOU produced the outcomes that you are experiencing.
Learn to take some responsibility.
I agree, however, I feel that my family FIRE tradition was a hindrance to my professional development. I did not know how to make it into one of the better corporate positions because I did not have an example to follow. FIRE gave me an out. I maintained an ever-present knowledge that I did not have to put up with the corporate America hassle that people need to endure before having a chance at a better position. I don't have to prostrate myself for the system. I knew that I can always mow lawns or paint a house and make more money. It was a hindrance.
I was able to endure until I had a family to support. Once I was laid off I slid back into FIRE and here I am.
FIRE is a culture.
I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.
Employment is also a culture. I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.
My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career. It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.
I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.
FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.
Literal and total nonsense.
FIRE is so many different cultural realities. You had one upbringing and you are painting an entire financial movement with that brush. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Tons of people in the FIRE community have meaningful professional careers.
I honestly don't even know that you have the same definition of FIRE as everyone else here does.
Okay, so you don't like your upbringing. Guess what, neither did I. I went directly against everything that my family wanted me to do. I left home as a teenager for fuck's sake.
I've already mentioned my debilitating disease that's basically ruined my career and how I've hustled to generate more opportunities. I don't see myself as a victim.
You my friend are not a fucking victim of anything.
So cut the bullshit. I know Syrian refugees who whine less about their circumstances than you do.
Stop it.
Get help.
Move on.
And seriously, stop coming back to a place where you know you are just going to get attacked for your nonsense. Either you're a a fucking troll who is completely wasting our time, or you have far more serious psychological issues than anyone here can help you with.
I hope you are a troll. For your sake, I really do.
If you aren't, then seek help.
I'm not joking, seek professional help. What you are doing on this forum is not what mentally healthy people do.
FIRE is a culture.
I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.
Employment is also a culture. I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.
My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career. It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.
I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.
FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.
Literal and total nonsense.
FIRE is so many different cultural realities. You had one upbringing and you are painting an entire financial movement with that brush. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Tons of people in the FIRE community have meaningful professional careers.
I honestly don't even know that you have the same definition of FIRE as everyone else here does.
Okay, so you don't like your upbringing. Guess what, neither did I. I went directly against everything that my family wanted me to do. I left home as a teenager for fuck's sake.
I've already mentioned my debilitating disease that's basically ruined my career and how I've hustled to generate more opportunities. I don't see myself as a victim.
You my friend are not a fucking victim of anything.
So cut the bullshit. I know Syrian refugees who whine less about their circumstances than you do.
Stop it.
Get help.
Move on.
And seriously, stop coming back to a place where you know you are just going to get attacked for your nonsense. Either you're a a fucking troll who is completely wasting our time, or you have far more serious psychological issues than anyone here can help you with.
I hope you are a troll. For your sake, I really do.
If you aren't, then seek help.
I'm not joking, seek professional help. What you are doing on this forum is not what mentally healthy people do.
I am thankful for your input and concern. I appreciate everything that you have shared in response to me. However, I do not think that wanting a meaningful career in corporate America is a mental issue. I do not feel that my challenges in changing my professional status are imaginary any more than the challenges that most people here face in regards to achieving FIRE.
Both are trite first world subjects in comparison to what most face in the developing world. We are lucky to be having such debates when so many are merely trying to feed themselves. I agree, wholeheartedly.
So all this is about your insecurity of feeling there is some club of elite corporate drones who went to the right universities and golf at the right clubs and you are jealous you aren’t a part of that? Aren’t you a bit old to be stressing over trying to fit into the cool kid clique at lunch? Be an adult. Figure out how to be happy with your own path and your own skills and experience. In my view that is one of the best parts of getting older: making peace with who I am and my place in the world. It is exhausting and unfulfilling to constantly be trying to be something you are not.
I agree with the advice of seeking out someone to talk to to help you. You need to find a way to accept yourself and learn to be happy.
Don't feed the troll. He is obviously trolling here. Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.
Sure, anything you say, troll.Don't feed the troll. He is obviously trolling here. Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.
It's possible that I have an experience that most here do not. It is my understanding that the majority of people here are trying to achieve FIRE. This thread is about post-fire issues. I have some.
They tried to make me accept a lower position. However, I have already been down that road and it is a dead end.
I am trying other similar positions. However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
They tried to make me accept a lower position. However, I have already been down that road and it is a dead end.
So, in reality, FIRE isn't preventing you from working in Corporate America at all. They offered you a job. It just wasn't the exact job you wanted.I am trying other similar positions. However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
Again, the problem isn't that you're FIRE'd. It's that they don't think you're qualified for the jobs you're applying for.
You know how to get a job in Corporate America. Interview and say yes to the job offer they give you, even if it's less than you think you deserve. If it turns out you're awesome at that lower level job, they will promote you. And so proceeds a career in Corporate America.
The end.
You don't need to play golf, or be in a frat, or whatever you think Corporate Culture is. You just need to suck it up and go to work at a job that wastes your time. Just like millions of other corporate wage slaves. You had an offer to do just that. Next time, take them up on it, and live your fantasy.
The OP is the text book definition of a troll. He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!
The OP is the text book definition of a troll. He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!
You could be right.
OR, it could also be that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone AND some of us are so enamored with the concepts/philosophy that we are unwilling to consider other points of view?
I could 100% be wrong here but the OP seems fairly rational to me (having read through many of their other posts) AND they are not suggesting that FIRE is "wrong" or "Broken" or a bad idea for all. I for one appreciate the conversation AND the back and forth. If nothing else, it is an exercise in how to "talk fire" or share the concepts with others and work to "see the logical fallacies" in the POV of another.
The OP is the text book definition of a troll. He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!
You could be right.
OR, it could also be that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone AND some of us are so enamored with the concepts/philosophy that we are unwilling to consider other points of view?
They could be right about him being a troll AND it's true that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone.I could 100% be wrong here but the OP seems fairly rational to me (having read through many of their other posts) AND they are not suggesting that FIRE is "wrong" or "Broken" or a bad idea for all. I for one appreciate the conversation AND the back and forth. If nothing else, it is an exercise in how to "talk fire" or share the concepts with others and work to "see the logical fallacies" in the POV of another.
Yeah, I do think you are...well, I won't say 100% wrong, but the OP has repeatedly made blanket statements about how bad FIRE is (rather than how it has fostered bad habits for him personally) and actually keeps bizarrely blaming FIRE for things that no one by any stretch of the imagination could blame FIRE for. He isn't here to engage in a genuine conversation about how the movement should avoid hubris and consider self-examination and reflection in certain areas. He's possibly just trolling and, whether genuine or not, just repeatedly whines about his personal situation and how abused he has been by it, lamenting his ability to do anything about it. He responds only to people that post suggestions with which he can disagree while ignoring all the rest that post genuinely good advice and/or thoughtful critiques or discussion. This is absolutely not about how to improve or reform the FIRE movement, but about misplaced blame for his personal situation.
Almost no one (I hesitate to be absolute without a careful review of all posts, but my memory is that no one) has come at him with ideological zealotry. Rather people have made many, many good suggestions about how he can end his failed FIRE attempt and, more broadly, pursue happiness in a number of ways, from those he claims to want to pursue, to possible avenues he has not yet considered. Some (including myself) have protested that he has painted too broad a brush about FIRE when he claims it is meaningless and actually in some ways bad for human beings to pursue by sharing some information about how in can be meaningful and valuable and/or has been for us personally. Yet that has not stopped him from continuing on with blaming FIRE for all his woes and insinuating that that means it's bad for everyone. His topics have literally been the opposite of the FIRE proponents being ideologically zealous, with everyone at first attempting to be genuinely helpful, creative and thoughtful, and him only repeating the same claims and woe ad nauseam.
I hate to add even another post to his threads to keep them alive and continue giving him attention, but I just can't let it be said that the other posters here are the ideological zealous ones while he is just stoking thoughtful discussion. I could not disagree more and really see only the opposite in his various threads.
Update: I just took a look at Pete's blog and it seems like he does a lot of the same things. I build/remodel and manage real estate. My kids did not even know that pizza could be delivered until recently. We never go out to eat, no TV, and live a financially deprived life. Our cars are old. It's the only life I have known. Am I missing something?
On the upside: Most everything I work on is something that I own. I live where I want and largely how I want. My kids grew up without going to daycare. Since being laid off I have slept in my own bed and am not forced to travel much. I go to sleep when I am tired and get up when rested (unless the kids have school). I never get stuck in traffic jams. I am the master of my days. All it took in trade were my professional dreams and that bothers me at times.
*snip*
However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.
Don't feed the troll. He is obviously trolling here. Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.
I am thankful for your input and concern. I appreciate everything that you have shared in response to me. However, I do not think that wanting a meaningful career in corporate America is a mental issue. I do not feel that my challenges in changing my professional status are imaginary any more than the challenges that most people here face in regards to achieving FIRE.
Both are trite first world subjects in comparison to what most face in the developing world. We are lucky to be having such debates when so many are merely trying to feed themselves. I agree, wholeheartedly.
He's been on here since 2014 and it seems most of the threads he started were in the same vain as this one so he probably isn't doing the same under another user name. The only thing I find strange is his new anti-FIRE threads also pop up about the same time the Financial Samari puts out a new anti-FIRE blog post. Hmmm....???Don't feed the troll. He is obviously trolling here. Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.
SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...
Anyways I think if hasn't found what he wants after almost 6 years its probably not going to happen and time to let go of the angst and enjoy his life.
I won't go into you personal beliefs on FIRE as they vastly differ from my personal experiences and those of most FIREd people I know.He's been on here since 2014 and it seems most of the threads he started were in the same vain as this one so he probably isn't doing the same under another user name. The only thing I find strange is his new anti-FIRE threads also pop up about the same time the Financial Samari puts out a new anti-FIRE blog post. Hmmm....???Don't feed the troll. He is obviously trolling here. Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.
SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...
Anyways I think if hasn't found what he wants after almost 6 years its probably not going to happen and time to let go of the angst and enjoy his life.
The job market has opened up since I started here. Since then I have been trying to achieve the career objective that has been underway for a very long time now. I very much understand the wisdom of “giving up” and wish I could do that. One of my points here is that I am not interested in more retirement life.
I may not achieve my goal but the effort has value. Apart from my professional dreams I have several other issues with FIRE. I don’t think it is healthy for children to grow up with idle FIRE parents. It is important for them to see me struggle and try. It is unwise to provide an example of self indulgence to kids. Everyone needs to have something they contribute to life that is meaningful. People who are able too achieve FIRE tend to be intelligent, well-educated, and goal oriented. How does it serve the individual to cease their vital work function, or worse, to demote oneself to that of a manual laborer?
Just want to comment that "letting go of the angst" about your job situation is very different from "giving up". If it is that important to you then continue to search for what you want. That doesn't mean you need to wrap your whole being into your search.and stress about it to the point you are. Enjoy what you have attained already and follow your dreams with a more relaxed attitude. Yout seem to be utterly miserable and that's just no way to live.
Another issue to be aware of is self-sabotage post FIRE.
FIRE can lead to depression, social isolation, and a loss of self esteem. People tend to be un-able to consciously recognize the source of their malaise and the sub-conscious takes over to financially sabotage ones FIRE status so that they have to go back to work. I have seen it happen many times. I am always on the look out for financial FIRE sabotage myself.
Boredom can also lead to financial self-sabotage. I have seen plenty of others blow their financial accomplishments on horses, sailboats, and airplanes because they couldn’t fill their time with meaningful accomplishments.
Increased risk taking can lead to financial FIRE sabotage. It seems that the longer one is in FIRE the more they are willing to accept risk and can expose themselves to disaster. It could be from boredom, over confidence, or a subconscious attempt to self destruct. I can’t explain it but it seems to happen a lot.
Relationship self destruction is another means of FIRE destruction. Sometimes a couple is ready to separate however the carefully created FIRE system is dependent upon both parties. One of the two can subconsciously destroy that which is holding them together in an attempt to get out.
I agree with you that sitting around all day doing nothing productive will be a bad role model for your kids and lead to depression and loneliness.
He isn't devaluing... He just wanted to do something else. Nothing wrong with that...Actually he has spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince us that FIRE is the root of many evils. It is his sweeping generalizations to other people that has led to many of us pushing back so much. If his observations were limited to his own experience with FIRE then I don’t think any of us would have a problem with it.
He isn't devaluing... He just wanted to do something else. Nothing wrong with that...
His 22 year old nephew seems to be what he likes to call "FIRE" because he can skateboard and live in his van mooching off the library's public wifi and "public" outlets (Not so sure it's "public" if you have to specify "unguarded") without needing to hold down a job. Anybody that has a paid for van and is okay with spending $20 per week on food can do this. I suspect what his nephew considers "FIRE" most casual onlookers would call "homeless." Most retirees don't have to worry about being "bothered" by the police at night. If we got a true snapshot of his financial situation, I suspect very few here would regard him as anything related to FIRE. Rather, he simply chooses not to work and lives in a van.FIRE is a spectrum.
My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.
I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying “here is that twenty bucks I owe you”.
He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.
I'm not quite sure I understand your point or how it detracts in any way from my point that FIRE itself isn't the problem. That the person who is living their life makes decisions that impact their future options.
What on earth does your 22 year old nephew knowing where to get free wifi have to do with that?
So what *are* you willing to do to get this corporate job you want?
It seems to me like you don't want to do anything hard; you just want to magically have that job. Yet instead of realizing that the reason you have very little chance of getting that job is that you aren't willing to do the things it takes for most people to get that type of position, you blame culture, your parents, and FIRE.
This is what nailed the troll for me. If you think this is FIRE, find a different forum to seek employmentHis 22 year old nephew seems to be what he likes to call "FIRE" because he can skateboard and live in his van mooching off the library's public wifi and "public" outlets (Not so sure it's "public" if you have to specify "unguarded") without needing to hold down a job. Anybody that has a paid for van and is okay with spending $20 per week on food can do this. I suspect what his nephew considers "FIRE" most casual onlookers would call "homeless." Most retirees don't have to worry about being "bothered" by the police at night. If we got a true snapshot of his financial situation, I suspect very few here would regard him as anything related to FIRE. Rather, he simply chooses not to work and lives in a van.FIRE is a spectrum.
My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.
I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying “here is that twenty bucks I owe you”.
He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.
I'm not quite sure I understand your point or how it detracts in any way from my point that FIRE itself isn't the problem. That the person who is living their life makes decisions that impact their future options.
What on earth does your 22 year old nephew knowing where to get free wifi have to do with that?
Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.
I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.
Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.
Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.
Can you genuinely say you’re happy with your life as it stands now?
Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.
I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.
Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.
This is patently false.
It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.
Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.
I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.
Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.
This is patently false.
It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.
Thanks! I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.
What are professional accolades? An award, a promotion, a large bonus? Or something else?
Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.
I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.
Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.
This is patently false.
It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.
Thanks! I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.
Well yes, people who aren't fulfilled in their working lives are unlikely to feel fulfilled in retirement, no matter what age they retire. But it's not a function of retiring, it's a function of never figuring out how to live a fulfilling life.
Which is a common issue.
Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.
I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.
Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.
This is patently false.
It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.
Thanks! I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.
Well yes, people who aren't fulfilled in their working lives are unlikely to feel fulfilled in retirement, no matter what age they retire. But it's not a function of retiring, it's a function of never figuring out how to live a fulfilling life.
Which is a common issue.
Most people need to be involved with the stream of life and don't realize what will be lost by abandoning their purpose.
Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.
I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.
Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.
This is patently false.
It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.
Thanks! I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.
Well yes, people who aren't fulfilled in their working lives are unlikely to feel fulfilled in retirement, no matter what age they retire. But it's not a function of retiring, it's a function of never figuring out how to live a fulfilling life.
Which is a common issue.
Most people need to be involved with the stream of life and don't realize what will be lost by abandoning their purpose.
Likewise many of us transition seamlessly into new purpose in retirement. I personally naturally seek out challenges and projects, no matter what external forces there are in my life
But that's kind of my point. People who find a lot of meaning and seek out purpose in life tend to succeed at feeling satisfied and fulfilled, whether doing paid work or not.
Needing to work for money isn't what gives people a sense of purpose.
Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.
I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.
Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.
This is patently false.
It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.
Thanks! I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.
Well yes, people who aren't fulfilled in their working lives are unlikely to feel fulfilled in retirement, no matter what age they retire. But it's not a function of retiring, it's a function of never figuring out how to live a fulfilling life.
Which is a common issue.
Most people need to be involved with the stream of life and don't realize what will be lost by abandoning their purpose.
Likewise many of us transition seamlessly into new purpose in retirement. I personally naturally seek out challenges and projects, no matter what external forces there are in my life
But that's kind of my point. People who find a lot of meaning and seek out purpose in life tend to succeed at feeling satisfied and fulfilled, whether doing paid work or not.
Needing to work for money isn't what gives people a sense of purpose.
Agreed. Did you have a corporate job? I also feel that FIRE when young adds to a malcontent disposition. Were you older when you achieved FIRE?
What are professional accolades? An award, a promotion, a large bonus? Or something else?
Achieving some sort of personal and public level of accomplishment before FIRE. Becoming satisfied with your work-life abilities prior to dropping out. Some careers have benchmarks that people consider to be evidence of professional success. I feel it is important prior to FIRE.
Agreed. Did you have a corporate job? I also feel that FIRE when young adds to a malcontent disposition. Were you older when you achieved FIRE?
It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.
I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.
FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.
I am not the only one.
Hi, Long ago as a younger person I was able to achieve FIRE. My dream, however, has always been to be a corporate slave. I spent my life, to date, trying to achieve that goal without a result. Recently I went to my fifth interview with my career objective employer only to be rejected again.
I am well regarded, educated, and highly experienced in my field. It is beginning to seem like FIRE is preventing my progression. Its almost like they can smell the lack of desperation in my resume. They don't see the usual wage slave career progression markers or something. I read a book recently that mentioned a culture that comes along with corporate America jobs. It went on to explain that if one does not wear the right shoes, go to certain colleges, or use specific terms they can be subtly outed as someone from the outside and passed over. They are good and well-meaning people but can not see outsiders as fitting in, one of them. I have not been able to find a book on the subject that can help. It seems that people who come from corporate wage slave families grow up with the knowledge of how to handle themselves. It's like a pedigree that can't be bought, faked, or bribed. They have connections that I do not have. Doors open for elites when needed and they seem to pass through the tiers without much resistance into a well paying and highly respected positions.
I grew up in a FIRE family. Achieving FIRE has been a natural thing for me. I watched my mother build a small real estate empire. Instead of playing football or working at a grocery store after school I would ride my bike to one of my mother's job sites and work. I took her experiences and built upon it to create something even better. I am thankful for all the opportunity it has provided however there are some incredible downsides as well. To me, FIRE feels like a wasted life. I can't do any more volunteering. I am not interested in any more classes or lower-tier experience building jobs. I have children whom I wish to see gainfully employed as they continue to grow up. My father had a long and satisfying career. He came from an elite corporate wage slave family. He did not understand FIRE and pushed back against it until he was laid off at 47 and retired because he could.
I am most likely out of luck. Too old now. My industry has moved onto a younger generation. It is incredibly sad for me. I wanted to be an example to my children. I am not sold on FIRE for them. My FIRE peers do not seem to do well in life. FIRE at a young age leads to self-destructive behavior in my experience. FIRE at an older age accelerates the decrepitude process. People tend to stop challenging themselves. They stop growing. Bad habits creep in. There is a lot to be thankful for as a corporate wage slave; the ability to be challenged, to achieve, to be embedded in an extensive social group. I am not alone. I have several FIRE peers who desperately want to get out as well. However, they have not tried as hard as I have.
Many here will not be sympathetic to my plea however those same people have cracked the code into corporate America. I am able to earn far more working my business however to what end does it serve this existence to be well paid but stuck in the same job I was doing in High School? Isn't there supposed to be more to this life than existing in a self-indulgent FIRE lifestyle? How does one break into one of the better corporate America jobs?
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.FIRE necessitates being FI, and being FI is having freedom. It is an adequate amount of money to not be made to do anything you do not want to. Being FI, you could've spent all the time in the world finding your next corporate gig, launching a company, doing anything of any challenge level. You took your freedom and chose to mow lawns and clean up after college students. If that didn't provide the challenge you needed, why did you not go find the challenge you needed? Being FI, there was no risk of missing a meal, not having a shirt on your back, or a roof over your head as long as you don't risk your capital.
I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.
FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.
I am not the only one.
Oh, snapI get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.
I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.
FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.
I am not the only one.
Yes, I participated in your thread beforehand, I'm familiar with your particular angst.
But I maintain, and so will everyone replying, that FIRE didn't cause any of your problems. You could have made different choices at any point, and you can still make different choices.
As I said, you seem to have an extremely external locus of control, which means you perceive your life circumstances as something that has happened to you, and yes, you aren't alone, this is a very common issue and at the heart of why so many people are so unhappy.
Having an internal locus of control is highly correlated with life satisfaction because those of us who have it feel like our lives are a product of our own decisions and actions, even when shit hits the fan, we feel like how we respond to that is totally within our control.
If you want to read about someone who got royally fucked in life and in their career, I invite you to read my journal.
I have a lot of pity for you, but not because of your life circumstances and DEFINITELY not for the fact that you have all of the freedom in the world to make your life something amazing. I pity you for the fact that you have so much and can't find a path tp purpose, despite having every single tool you need to do so.
I'm literally crippled and in constant pain and about to have both of my legs broken as part of a series of 6 surgeries with 2 full years of recovery until I'll be able to walk again, and that's if everything goes perfectly. Add that to the severe neck spinal damage that prevents me from being able to function even if my legs worked. I have so many limitations it's insane, and yet, I still feel completely optimistic about my ability to live a full and challenging life.
I also feel totally confident in my ability to generate a totally new professional career, despite the fact that I'll never be able to work full time, and despite the fact that I have no financial need to do so. I just like a challenge, so I just go out and challenge myself.
So if I, with my severe nerve damage, being stuck in bed debilitated more than 50% of the time, with my about to be broken femurs, and complete inability to work more than very part time can still manage to generate the energy and effort it takes to build a whole new professional career despite not even needing the income, then so can you if you really want to.
...and no, asking me more questions about my circumstances will not give you an ounce of opportunity to say "well it's easier for you" because I would bet large sums that it isn't.
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.I find it hard to accept that people find deep meaning from corporate jobs - most of them are completely pointless, and the greater "purpose" most of them serve are simply to bilk others out of money. The average person needs very little to be happy, yet there's an incredible number of jobs dedicated around building things people don't really need for anything, and figuring out howe to convince them they do.
I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.
FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.
I am not the only one.
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.I find it hard to accept that people find deep meaning from corporate jobs - most of them are completely pointless, and the greater "purpose" most of them serve are simply to bilk others out of money. The average person needs very little to be happy, yet there's an incredible number of jobs dedicated around building things people don't really need for anything, and figuring out howe to convince them they do.
I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.
FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.
I am not the only one.
I think there are jobs in public service that are meaningful, but even those have most of the satisfaction squeezed out of them by bureaucracy or other factors.
Quite bluntly, I find the idea of someone defining their sense of self worth by involvement in the corporatocracy sad. Sure, you can derive a feeling of satisfaction rising to the challenges presented to you and figuring out solutions to them, but for the most part, they're artificially created problems resulting from negative human traits and again, are mostly pointless in the grand scheme of things. I can achieve the same level of satisfaction from brain teasers or puzzles or other artificial games.
I think it's terrible that there are people who lose all sense of well-being when they retire - IMO, it means they never had it their entire lives. If you don't have plans and goals for your own life, there are many others who will happily take over your life to advance their own plans, and that's what I feel has happened with those folks.
The idea that life needs to have some greater purpose is a weird one to me, that seems to cause a lot of angst in a lot of people. My guess would be that it's been implanted by those who like to control others, like religious groups or the rich, to motivate the masses to advance their own agendas. We evolved on this planet over the course of millions of years, and living is our purpose. We seem to have an instinctual desire to make life "better" for the next generation(s), and to minimize suffering (well, most of us, anyway :/).
What makes us happy and contented is having our basic needs met - being loved, food, shelter, being a part of something larger, etc. While the corporate world can help with the food and shelter, it's terrible at the rest. The being a part of something larger it offers is a frail, cold, heartless mirage that can be ripped away from you at any instant by one bad manager, or a casual decision by a CEO trying to earn his latest bonus to buy a new cottage. Making yourself attached to it is dangerous and short sighted, IMO. You have even experienced this yourself at age 38 without realizing the root of the issue! "I was laid off at 38"..."Washed up at 38."
If you want to face challenges and the sense of satisfaction that comes from overcoming them, you don't need (or WANT, I'd argue) a corporate master to pull your puppet strings for that - find a hobby you enjoy, or a way to help others (or animals, or the environment, whatever you really care about deep down), and get involved!
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
And retiring was forced upon me by my spine falling apart at the EXACT same age.
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
And retiring was forced upon me by my spine falling apart at the EXACT same age.
Malcat,
Oh no… I am so sorry. I hope you are able to get along alright. FIRE is a blessing when we are facing health challenges for sure. Over the years our kids have had various health challenges and both parents were able to help. FIRE is a salvation for many. I empathize with your situation.
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
And retiring was forced upon me by my spine falling apart at the EXACT same age.
Malcat,
Oh no… I am so sorry. I hope you are able to get along alright. FIRE is a blessing when we are facing health challenges for sure. Over the years our kids have had various health challenges and both parents were able to help. FIRE is a salvation for many. I empathize with your situation.
Did you read my very long post with a lot of personal details that I wrote earlier? Because I didn't take the time to write and share all of that for my own entertainment.
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
This isn't retired. This is being fired (not caps). You keep talking about how manual labor is beneath you - yet you do it - and how you're FIRE. I think your definition of FIRE is different than many.
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
And retiring was forced upon me by my spine falling apart at the EXACT same age.
Malcat,
Oh no… I am so sorry. I hope you are able to get along alright. FIRE is a blessing when we are facing health challenges for sure. Over the years our kids have had various health challenges and both parents were able to help. FIRE is a salvation for many. I empathize with your situation.
Did you read my very long post with a lot of personal details that I wrote earlier? Because I didn't take the time to write and share all of that for my own entertainment.
Malcat,
Thank you for sharing that. I did miss it earlier. I am sorry for your situation and hope that your surgeries work out as you intend. Everyone has a different place on the spectrum of opportunity. I am very sorry for your health challenges. My mother has experienced something similar. She too has an internal drive and the ability to overcome many of life's obstacles.
All I can say is that we all are on our own journey. I am able-bodied and have a strong resume but can not find meaningful work in my field due to a poor job market. I hope you can empathize with my plight. I am ready and willing but am being held back due to outside forces that I can not control.
Had you not encountered your health challenge do you think you would still be at work?
FI is great. RE not so.
I have two younger FIRE friends who are starting to experience the ego decay and dangers of boredom that come with FIRE. In response, they have both started to take on unnecessary risks to fill the void. One is exposing themself to unnecessary business risk while the other personal physical risk through dangerous endeavors. I am trying to get them to settle down and just get a job at Costco before disaster strikes, but the golden handcuffs of FIRE are holding them hostage still.
I have seen this trajectory before. Some flirt with relationship disaster while others subconsciously sabotage their FIRE so that their ego will permit them to return to work. In my opinion, smart humans were not intended to be unemployed for long. Some of us need outside motivation and direction to remain challenged.
If someone is capable enough to achieve FIRE at a young age then they are too intelligent to be satisfied by spending their days in self-indulgent pursuits for long. Buying oneself toys and trying to fill the time with hobbies does not work a lot of the time, especially for younger people.
Imagine going to a party where young adults are meeting each other for the first time. When asked what your occupation was your response is "I ski". It sounds great to someone who has not lived that life but I can assure you that those words are often hollow. I don't attend such things anymore for that very reason. I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either.
It probably would be better to say something like "I am a retired CEO" over "I figured out how to do nothing all day". FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.
forced into an alternative career path
FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.
FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.
You keep saying this, and it continues to matter not a whit to those of us who are very happily FIREd and leading fulfilling lives without work. Without a doubt, the best and most fulfilling years of my life so far have been my 2.5 FIREd years - even during COVID.
FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.
You keep saying this, and it continues to matter not a whit to those of us who are very happily FIREd and leading fulfilling lives without work. Without a doubt, the best and most fulfilling years of my life so far have been my 2.5 FIREd years - even during COVID.
FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.
You keep saying this, and it continues to matter not a whit to those of us who are very happily FIREd and leading fulfilling lives without work. Without a doubt, the best and most fulfilling years of my life so far have been my 2.5 FIREd years - even during COVID.
I am glad that you are enjoying FIRE. I have been in FIRE for nearly two decades now. It was not my choice.
your signature quote is a snip from one of the best posts on these entire forums thanks for that!
...It was not my choice...
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
I have reached a level long ago where I could hire it all out and I do have staff that helps me. By mowing lawns myself I could save $1200 each day. By painting a house myself or with a crew I can save perhaps $1800 per day. I am too frugal to leave that on the table.
The bottom line is that I spend my day doing manual labor when I cold have been a professional. I went to college to escape drudgery and sunburn but ended up there anyway. It seems that the achievement of some sort of professional standard prior to FIRE is a benefit to satisfying one’s sense of professional accomplishment.
I never got that. I am financially much better off than had I spent my days in a suit but still do the same basic work functions I did straight out of high school. It is not very satisfying. I wish I had achieved some sort of professional success prior to FIRE.
FI is great. RE not so much.
My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise. I have a lot of experience with FIRE.
Misery loves company i guess you can find that in your family - here you haven't found the company you seek. Maybe a new blog should be started called consume til you die and you can find the culture you seek.
My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise. I have a lot of experience with FIRE.
dont show them this thread
Hey, guess what.
I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.
I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.
You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.
An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".
You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.
Hey, guess what.
I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.
I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.
You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.
An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".
You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.
Malcat,
I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most. Human nature is fairly constant.
However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.
Hey, guess what.
I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.
I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.
You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.
An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".
You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.
Malcat,
I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most. Human nature is fairly constant.
However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.
Hey, guess what.
I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.
I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.
You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.
An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".
You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.
Malcat,
I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most. Human nature is fairly constant.
However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.
uhh dude you're the outlier in these forums. I do not understand how you can't see that.
Comparing a lottery winner to a person who has the intellectual understanding, self control, and forsight to even learn about and get to FIRE through working and saving shows just how NOT AN EXPERT you are on what you claim to be.
Normally people who shout I'm an EXPERT at anything from the rooftops should be heavily avoided for that topic. Maybe tone down your EGO and go re read all the posts on this thread. I bet you still have not read Malcat's post as you say you want to learn more about them yet they have been a very large open book all over these forums including the book they wrote for you here in this thread.
Hey, guess what.
I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.
I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.
You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.
An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".
You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.
Malcat,
I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most. Human nature is fairly constant.
However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.
uhh dude you're the outlier in these forums. I do not understand how you can't see that.
Comparing a lottery winner to a person who has the intellectual understanding, self control, and forsight to even learn about and get to FIRE through working and saving shows just how NOT AN EXPERT you are on what you claim to be.
Normally people who shout I'm an EXPERT at anything from the rooftops should be heavily avoided for that topic. Maybe tone down your EGO and go re read all the posts on this thread. I bet you still have not read Malcat's post as you say you want to learn more about them yet they have been a very large open book all over these forums including the book they wrote for you here in this thread.
Forums like this are commonly populated with wannabes and the aspirational. Those who have achieved the goal tend to move on to other things. I expect to be the outlier.
Hey, guess what.
I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.
I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.
You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.
An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".
You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.
Malcat,
I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most. Human nature is fairly constant.
However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.
It doesn't matter if I'm an outlier.
If the majority of people approach something wrong, that doesn't make them experts in doing that thing, it makes the experts rare.
I was an expert in a specific area of medicine that few people understand. My colleagues weren't experts because they failed to do it well, I was the expert because I was the outlier.
Experts are often outliers.
You are unhappy and living a life that you generally describe as miserable. How on earth do you purport to be an expert?
It sounds like you have been rather financially successful in real estate, you might be able to claim to be an expert in that, and probably have a lot of wisdom to share, which is why I gave you advice in your other thread as to how to frame your knowledge in a more accessible way.
As I said, you are ABSOLUTELY an expert at throwing away opportunities to be happy and making excuses for why you can't do things that so, so, so many other people can.
You could just write me off as an "outlier" or you could take an interest as to why I'm able to be happy despite having a much, much more difficult life than you do. Because what I do differently from you is all LEARNABLE.
So you can either take an interest in how to improve your absolutely miserable state, or you can just keep looking for ways to reject any possibility that it could be improved.
Why you would WANT to stay miserable is beyond me though.
Malcat,
I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.
As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith? To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.
Malcat,
I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.
As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.
You just did exactly what I suggested you not do.
And you are purposefully ignoring what I'm saying.
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith? To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.
Thank you F.I,
I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith? To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.
Thank you F.I,
I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.
Malcat,
I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.
As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.
You just did exactly what I suggested you not do.
And you are purposefully ignoring what I'm saying.
I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.
I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.
I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.
I appreciate the warning, but your story is as old as the hills. At age 38, you made the decision to pursue money instead of happiness. Today, you have the money but no happiness.
A reoccurring theme on FIRE blogs and especially MMM is using FI to pursue happiness. I agree, you are a cautionary tale of what happens when you do it wrong.
The OP's point of view reminds me of the slave in Norsemen who puts up with horrible degrading treatment by his Viking masters despite having actually been freed some years before. His explanation? "I need the structure".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series)
"Øystein Martinsen as Kark, a freed slave who has voluntarily returned to his life as a slave after being institutionalized. "
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith? To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.
Thank you F.I,
I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.
Obligatory reference to relevant post: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/06/08/happiness-is-the-only-logical-pursuit/I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.
I appreciate the warning, but your story is as old as the hills. At age 38, you made the decision to pursue money instead of happiness. Today, you have the money but no happiness.
A reoccurring theme on FIRE blogs and especially MMM is using FI to pursue happiness. I agree, you are a cautionary tale of what happens when you do it wrong.
My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise. I have a lot of experience with FIRE.
I think I figured out the disconnect. The OP holds the majority view, that people need to work until 60 something or they'll have nothing to do and will basically fall into decline.
He doesn't recognize that members of this particular forum have already received and rejected this message. It's a very common, unintellectual approach to work-life, and most people follow it.
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith? To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.
Thank you F.I,
I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.
@Skyhigh
Just because you don't actively practice a faith does not mean you lack a spiritual component to your personhood. I'd like to strongly recommend studying some Carl Jung (sans the mysticism.) You clearly have an internal dialogue that contains some elements that are toxic to you. Some people would call that your "prayer" or "conversation with the Universe". This is a very ancient concept that predates Christ. You are dwelling on misery and thereby attracting more misery to yourself. A little bit of Jungian analysis would allow you to do the very difficult work (and know you don't want to be seen as emotionally lazy) of examining and confronting your own shadow material and thus processing the trauma FIRE has clearly caused you.
You are hurting. It is noble you have a service mindset to protect others from experiencing your pain. But (and an entire forum has basically been screaming this at you...) it is a misguided act of service. Most people either are not traumatized by FIRE at all, or if they are, quickly process it in a productive way, instead of negatively dwelling on it like you have for decades. You are very emotionally/psychologically (I say "spiritually") STUCK. Take positive action to move your energy starting today.
I think I figured out the disconnect. The OP holds the majority view, that people need to work until 60 something or they'll have nothing to do and will basically fall into decline.
He doesn't recognize that members of this particular forum have already received and rejected this message. It's a very common, unintellectual approach to work-life, and most people follow it.
I really don't think that's it.
It's about identity. He felt he lost his identity when he lost his career, that's very clear. Then he's never been able to forge an identity for himself since that he's comfortable with.
It's like career dysmorphia, a sort of "this isn't who I am or who I'm supposed to be" and it's making him fucking miserable.
But instead of seeking solutions, he's raging against the perceived evil that caused it, and when he sees that evil being celebrated, he feels compelled to educate people of the evils that he thinks they're just not seeing.
He's frustrated because he feels like an expert on this matter because of his and his family's experience, and we're all either too stubborn to acknowledge the truth, or individually we're exceptions to the rule who are just failing to see it because we think we're the norm, not the exception.
This is why he doesn't even really fully read replies, he knows it's pointless, because he knows the *truth*
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith? To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.
Thank you F.I,
I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.
@Skyhigh
Just because you don't actively practice a faith does not mean you lack a spiritual component to your personhood. I'd like to strongly recommend studying some Carl Jung (sans the mysticism.) You clearly have an internal dialogue that contains some elements that are toxic to you. Some people would call that your "prayer" or "conversation with the Universe". This is a very ancient concept that predates Christ. You are dwelling on misery and thereby attracting more misery to yourself. A little bit of Jungian analysis would allow you to do the very difficult work (and know you don't want to be seen as emotionally lazy) of examining and confronting your own shadow material and thus processing the trauma FIRE has clearly caused you.
You are hurting. It is noble you have a service mindset to protect others from experiencing your pain. But (and an entire forum has basically been screaming this at you...) it is a misguided act of service. Most people either are not traumatized by FIRE at all, or if they are, quickly process it in a productive way, instead of negatively dwelling on it like you have for decades. You are very emotionally/psychologically (I say "spiritually") STUCK. Take positive action to move your energy starting today.
F.I.,
You are a very kind and thoughtful person. I greatly appreciate your compassion and concern. I agree with your assessment that I am “hurting”, however I don’t believe that it is different from anyone else who has a dream. My goal is to strive to become my best self. A version that provides service to others through the contribution of my best abilities. I do not believe that striving to do noting with this life is a virtue. Volunteering at the soup kitchen while withholding superior skills and knowledge does not compensate.
In my experience those who intentionally leave the stream of life early are doing harm to themselves and to others around them. It is not a good example to our children nor does it help ourselves either.
That's true of course. I'm stuck on the tremendous ego it takes to insist that one's leaps of logic rule the day. There's a clear difference between a conscious and thoughtful study of FIRE concepts to prepare for financial independence (what we are doing) and, like, giving up (which is the OP's experience).
So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???
So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???
pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.
So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???
pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.
Ah, you are too cynical.
I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.
So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???
pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.
Ah, you are too cynical.
I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.
I get the feeling that many here are not parents. I have nothing to base it on other than expressed opinions and attitudes. The example that I provide my children is much of what drives me.
I concede that my ego is very much invested in my professional accomplishments, goals, and dreams. My career high watermark fell short of my aspirations. Most of it was due to a poor job market but a lot due to the allure of easy living through FIRE. I do blame FIRE for robbing me of my motivation, and why wouldn't it? Working at the convenience of others is a drag. It is hard to have to get up early and drive to a menial position in hopes that it will bare fruit in a decade or two. Employment sucks,, right?
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.
Besides the bruised ego my issue is with my children. My grandfather was a decorated officer in the Navy during WWII. My father was one of the first aerospace engineers in the nation and is credited with many advances in the space program. As a child growing up in the shadows of these accomplished people my expectations and goals were formed through their example. I believe that our children pattern much of their self-esteem and life expectations from what we do. As a result, I am not comfortable with my accomplishments.
I still provide a manual labor function to my business because it gives me something to do and my kids get to see me work. My hope was to have been able to return to my chosen field and provide a different example, but it is not so easy to voluntarily stick one's head back into the noose of employment. My wife completed her college degree and started her career once the kids were all in school. She could sit at home too.
As I have mentioned before I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history. It is especially harmful to young people. I don't believe that it provides a good example for children who will pattern their expectations on what they see their parents doing with their time and gifts. I base these findings upon the study of generations of my family and from the results of my clients. I am an expert at FIRE and it comes with a downside. Everything does.
For all those here who wish to see me punished for my contrarian views, you will get your wish.
I have to attend a work holiday party with my spouse and will be confronted with the dreaded "so what do you do" question. I never know what to say in these situations and am always embarrassed. Below are some of the answers I have used in the past.
"I figured out how I can afford to do nothing"
"I am a laid off -----"
"I own things that make it so that I can do what I want all day"
"I ski"
"I am a kept husband"
Rest assured I will be uncomfortable for several hours. All here can take delight at my humiliations.
You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh. You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.
Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?
If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here. Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.
“What do you do?”
Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).
“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”
“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”
“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”
“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”
“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”
“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “
“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”
Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.
“What do you do?”
Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).
“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”
“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be planting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”
“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”
“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’ve got new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”
“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and boosted. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”
“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “
“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”
Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.
“What do you do?”
Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).
“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”
“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”
“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”
“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”
“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”
“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “
“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”
Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.
I appreciate your comments and shall take them to heart. In my case it feels diminished to share my appliance repair accomplishments to a professional. I can literally see their eyes glaze over.
You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh. You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.
Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?
If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here. Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.
All I can say is that my situation here is akin to running for office. Candidates repeat their message over and over again to an ever-changing audience. I am glad that you are paying attention though.
You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh. You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.
Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?
If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here. Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.
All I can say is that my situation here is akin to running for office. Candidates repeat their message over and over again to an ever-changing audience. I am glad that you are paying attention though.
“What do you do?”
Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).
“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”
“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”
“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”
“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”
“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”
“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “
“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”
Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.
I appreciate your comments and shall take them to heart. In my case it feels diminished to share my appliance repair accomplishments to a professional. I can literally see their eyes glaze over.
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.
Skyhigh, can you please explain something to me? Pretend I have serious reading comprehension issues and you have to dumb down the answer for me because in 4+ pages of this thread and your many, many posts I still don't understand.
You've said repeatedly things like you posted above, specifically, "when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family." Are you considering this FIRE? Because according to the definition most here have, if you are forced to do something to provide for your family then you're not FIREd.
So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work? Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved?
I'm really looking for specific details, like, "In 1994 when I was 45 I was laid off and I had enough to never work again. I continued to earn zero income for 2 years, at which point I started my repair business." Or, "from 2003 I sold the business I had built and didn't work for 3 years from ages 52-55, at which point I felt I needed to do something so I started a new business."
Thanks!
@Skyhigh you've posted this in the wrong section. This is not "post-FIRE". It's maybe "ask a mustachian" or the (non-existent) "my life sucks and I want to whine about it but not do anything about it".
It is "post-fired" (not caps). You lost your job, had to take something else to make ends meet, and are throwing yourself a pity party because it's not important enough for someone else.
There's a lot of projection. You wish you had an impressive job title, so you think others care that you don't. You think your life is useless, so you think others think your life is useless.
Not sure why I'm even writing. You've shown over and over again that you are way stuck in your story to listen to anyone else. And you hate the whole idea of (your version of) FIRE that you want to make a business of showing other people how to do it? Yes, let's encourage more people to be unhappy. Sign me up (/s)
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.
Skyhigh, can you please explain something to me? Pretend I have serious reading comprehension issues and you have to dumb down the answer for me because in 4+ pages of this thread and your many, many posts I still don't understand.
You've said repeatedly things like you posted above, specifically, "when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family." Are you considering this FIRE? Because according to the definition most here have, if you are forced to do something to provide for your family then you're not FIREd.
So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work? Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved?
I'm really looking for specific details, like, "In 1994 when I was 45 I was laid off and I had enough to never work again. I continued to earn zero income for 2 years, at which point I started my repair business." Or, "from 2003 I sold the business I had built and didn't work for 3 years from ages 52-55, at which point I felt I needed to do something so I started a new business."
Thanks!
FIRE 20/20
I was laid off in the fall of 2002 as an airline pilot. I had zero ability to find another flying job let alone one that could support a family. I tried to get another job outside of aviation but people looked at me as though I had two heads. I could not even get a job at the grocery store. Employes just thought I was a primadonna airline pilot who was incapable of a real job. As a result, we left the big city and returned to our rural home.
Without employment options, I had to reinvent myself as a general contractor. (construction was my only other work credential) I built a few homes for others before determining that I could build homes for myself as rental investments. Fortunately, we were able to sell our home in the city for a high price and used the equity as seed money to get my investment portfolio underway. It cost me 65% of the appraised value of a home to build it myself. I was then able to cash-out refinance the property at an 80% loan-to-value, thusly repaying my initial investment plus 15% that I used to live on.
I continued like that building perhaps three homes a year until I was able to speed up the process by also buying existing homes. My target house to buy was one that had been mismanaged by novice investors and refinanced after I had repaired them back to a high standard. Eventually, the market imploded after 2008, and I had to start over again. While mowing lawns the idea struck that all the vacant and foreclosed homes needed management. I launched a property management company and was able to build it up to a degree to employ several people.
About 6 years ago I was able to resume building new homes again. I guess you can say that I became financially independent the day after my unemployment insurance ran out in 2003. In 2014 I was able to return to part-time work as a pilot. A few years later I secured a full-time compensated position as a corporate pilot that is more like a part-time obligation.
My portfolio of rental homes grew to a point long ago where I could have hired it all out and sat at home. My dream however is to remain gainfully employed until I can't physically do it anymore. Hopefully, I can remain employed in my career objective, but if not, then by mowing lawns. I have a work ethic, ambition, and drive that I can not shut off.
@Skyhigh you've posted this in the wrong section. This is not "post-FIRE". It's maybe "ask a mustachian" or the (non-existent) "my life sucks and I want to whine about it but not do anything about it".
It is "post-fired" (not caps). You lost your job, had to take something else to make ends meet, and are throwing yourself a pity party because it's not important enough for someone else.
There's a lot of projection. You wish you had an impressive job title, so you think others care that you don't. You think your life is useless, so you think others think your life is useless.
Not sure why I'm even writing. You've shown over and over again that you are way stuck in your story to listen to anyone else. And you hate the whole idea of (your version of) FIRE that you want to make a business of showing other people how to do it? Yes, let's encourage more people to be unhappy. Sign me up (/s)
I qualify as Financially Independent and Retired Early to the same degree as most here. I have experienced a post-FIRE life since 2002. I could afford to sit at home and do nothing long ago if I choose.
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.
Skyhigh, can you please explain something to me? Pretend I have serious reading comprehension issues and you have to dumb down the answer for me because in 4+ pages of this thread and your many, many posts I still don't understand.
You've said repeatedly things like you posted above, specifically, "when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family." Are you considering this FIRE? Because according to the definition most here have, if you are forced to do something to provide for your family then you're not FIREd.
So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work? Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved?
I'm really looking for specific details, like, "In 1994 when I was 45 I was laid off and I had enough to never work again. I continued to earn zero income for 2 years, at which point I started my repair business." Or, "from 2003 I sold the business I had built and didn't work for 3 years from ages 52-55, at which point I felt I needed to do something so I started a new business."
Thanks!
FIRE 20/20
I was laid off in the fall of 2002 as an airline pilot. I had zero ability to find another flying job let alone one that could support a family. I tried to get another job outside of aviation but people looked at me as though I had two heads. I could not even get a job at the grocery store. Employes just thought I was a primadonna airline pilot who was incapable of a real job. As a result, we left the big city and returned to our rural home.
Without employment options, I had to reinvent myself as a general contractor. (construction was my only other work credential) I built a few homes for others before determining that I could build homes for myself as rental investments. Fortunately, we were able to sell our home in the city for a high price and used the equity as seed money to get my investment portfolio underway. It cost me 65% of the appraised value of a home to build it myself. I was then able to cash-out refinance the property at an 80% loan-to-value, thusly repaying my initial investment plus 15% that I used to live on.
I continued like that building perhaps three homes a year until I was able to speed up the process by also buying existing homes. My target house to buy was one that had been mismanaged by novice investors and refinanced after I had repaired them back to a high standard. Eventually, the market imploded after 2008, and I had to start over again. While mowing lawns the idea struck that all the vacant and foreclosed homes needed management. I launched a property management company and was able to build it up to a degree to employ several people.
About 6 years ago I was able to resume building new homes again. I guess you can say that I became financially independent the day after my unemployment insurance ran out in 2003. In 2014 I was able to return to part-time work as a pilot. A few years later I secured a full-time compensated position as a corporate pilot that is more like a part-time obligation.
My portfolio of rental homes grew to a point long ago where I could have hired it all out and sat at home. My dream however is to remain gainfully employed until I can't physically do it anymore. Hopefully, I can remain employed in my career objective, but if not, then by mowing lawns. I have a work ethic, ambition, and drive that I can not shut off.
For all those here who wish to see me punished for my contrarian views, you will get your wish.
I have to attend a work holiday party with my spouse and will be confronted with the dreaded "so what do you do" question. I never know what to say in these situations and am always embarrassed. Below are some of the answers I have used in the past.
"I figured out how I can afford to do nothing"
"I am a laid off -----"
"I own things that make it so that I can do what I want all day"
"I ski"
"I am a kept husband"
Rest assured I will be uncomfortable for several hours. All here can take delight at my humiliations.
For all those here who wish to see me punished for my contrarian views, you will get your wish.
I have to attend a work holiday party with my spouse and will be confronted with the dreaded "so what do you do" question. I never know what to say in these situations and am always embarrassed. Below are some of the answers I have used in the past.
"I figured out how I can afford to do nothing"
"I am a laid off -----"
"I own things that make it so that I can do what I want all day"
"I ski"
"I am a kept husband"
Rest assured I will be uncomfortable for several hours. All here can take delight at my humiliations.
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.
Skyhigh, can you please explain something to me? Pretend I have serious reading comprehension issues and you have to dumb down the answer for me because in 4+ pages of this thread and your many, many posts I still don't understand.
You've said repeatedly things like you posted above, specifically, "when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family." Are you considering this FIRE? Because according to the definition most here have, if you are forced to do something to provide for your family then you're not FIREd.
So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work? Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved?
I'm really looking for specific details, like, "In 1994 when I was 45 I was laid off and I had enough to never work again. I continued to earn zero income for 2 years, at which point I started my repair business." Or, "from 2003 I sold the business I had built and didn't work for 3 years from ages 52-55, at which point I felt I needed to do something so I started a new business."
Thanks!
FIRE 20/20
I was laid off in the fall of 2002 as an airline pilot. I had zero ability to find another flying job let alone one that could support a family. I tried to get another job outside of aviation but people looked at me as though I had two heads. I could not even get a job at the grocery store. Employes just thought I was a primadonna airline pilot who was incapable of a real job. As a result, we left the big city and returned to our rural home.
Without employment options, I had to reinvent myself as a general contractor. (construction was my only other work credential) I built a few homes for others before determining that I could build homes for myself as rental investments. Fortunately, we were able to sell our home in the city for a high price and used the equity as seed money to get my investment portfolio underway. It cost me 65% of the appraised value of a home to build it myself. I was then able to cash-out refinance the property at an 80% loan-to-value, thusly repaying my initial investment plus 15% that I used to live on.
I continued like that building perhaps three homes a year until I was able to speed up the process by also buying existing homes. My target house to buy was one that had been mismanaged by novice investors and refinanced after I had repaired them back to a high standard. Eventually, the market imploded after 2008, and I had to start over again. While mowing lawns the idea struck that all the vacant and foreclosed homes needed management. I launched a property management company and was able to build it up to a degree to employ several people.
About 6 years ago I was able to resume building new homes again. I guess you can say that I became financially independent the day after my unemployment insurance ran out in 2003. In 2014 I was able to return to part-time work as a pilot. A few years later I secured a full-time compensated position as a corporate pilot that is more like a part-time obligation.
My portfolio of rental homes grew to a point long ago where I could have hired it all out and sat at home. My dream however is to remain gainfully employed until I can't physically do it anymore. Hopefully, I can remain employed in my career objective, but if not, then by mowing lawns. I have a work ethic, ambition, and drive that I can not shut off.
Become a flight trainer, crazy demand now. Stop whining and feeling sorry for yourself. Almost everyone has been fired from one or more jobs for reasons that nobody can control (economy/industry shift), for job related performance or office politics (all boxes checked in my case). You could also probably get a teaching certificate and teach Physics if you like the physics of flight and simple high school level physics.
I prefer not to drag my dirty laundry into the public but could swap firing stories with almost anyone that I have witnessed and been subject to (a friend in a right to work state was once fired from a high-level corporate job on Friday hours before the office Christmas party that night for example). When fired, I looked for juicy severance packages and realized my talents were not being properly used at the current employer and moved on. Having a stash to afford to do anything else (FIRE) was only a positive that allowed flexibility to pursue other opportunities. Same is true now where my current industry has drastically changed in the last few years and job prospects in this industry have plunged due to the virus, will FIRE for the 6th time in 2022. Currently trying to max severance from current employer (but bleak as firm and industry are faltering, no deep pockets).
Good luck, hope you find another passion that FIRE allows you to pursue.
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?
People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?
Wait -- your life was ruined because you were laid off from your first job as a pilot but eventually you got another FT job doing PT work as a pilot and you are still miserable? Your brain has some serious miswiring going on IMO.
This probably won't help you but gonna post it anyway as maybe it (and the book it comes from) will help somebody else. Life is too short to wallow in this pit of self-produced crap you seem to be mired in:
https://tim.blog/2021/12/15/the-liberation-of-cosmic-insignificance-therapy/
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?
People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?
You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?
People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?
You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.
Perhaps I am missing something? From my side of the screen, I am answering the questions.
Oh this thread! I'm getting all nostalgic for skyhighs other threads now. Seems he/she shows up once a year around Nov or Dec, drops a few Anti-FIRE and my life sucks because of FIRE threads and then moves on. The "expert" at FIRE messiah thing is new but otherwise same old one trick pony.
While I like cautionary tales and feel they can be very useful to new or wannabe FIREees (and tell them myself) and even very helpful for us long term FIREees, but pontificating that skyhighs experiences are "the One True Experiences" and all other humans will react like he has to FIRE is beyond ridiculous. We are individuals who have different wants, needs and desires and won't succumb to the pitfalls like he say. But the OP seems to be the only one that doesn't get it. Hmmm....maybe there should be a thread for that ;-).
Oh this thread! I'm getting all nostalgic for skyhighs other threads now. Seems he/she shows up once a year around Nov or Dec, drops a few Anti-FIRE and my life sucks because of FIRE threads and then moves on. The "expert" at FIRE messiah thing is new but otherwise same old one trick pony.
While I like cautionary tales and feel they can be very useful to new or wannabe FIREees (and tell them myself) and even very helpful for us long term FIREees, but pontificating that skyhighs experiences are "the One True Experiences" and all other humans will react like he has to FIRE is beyond ridiculous. We are individuals who have different wants, needs and desires and won't succumb to the pitfalls like he say. But the OP seems to be the only one that doesn't get it. Hmmm....maybe there should be a thread for that ;-).
Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
At present others in my personal life suggest that I conduct some profit-taking and relax a bit. They believe that I should ease up on my dreams and give in to the seductions of FIRE. I need your frank and hard-cutting comments to help me to find my resolve again.
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?
People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?
You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.
Perhaps I am missing something? From my side of the screen, I am answering the questions.
You 100% have not.
In fact I'm kind of gobsmacked that you think you have answered questions when all you have done is repeat the same party-line over and over and over again without seeming to even notice the many things that people have written.
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?
People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?
You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.
Perhaps I am missing something? From my side of the screen, I am answering the questions.
You 100% have not.
In fact I'm kind of gobsmacked that you think you have answered questions when all you have done is repeat the same party-line over and over and over again without seeming to even notice the many things that people have written.
Malcat,
Because I cherish and respect you so much I will carefully go back through all the comments and see what I have missed. However, I ask for you to consider that I am crafting these replies between meetings and other work duties. Often the responses I receive exceed my ability to properly comprehend and reply to them all. Often it seems that one answer would suffice for three questions.
...My goal is to strive to become my best self....
... A version that provides service to others through the contribution of my best abilities...
So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???
pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.
Ah, you are too cynical.
I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.
I get the feeling that many here are not parents. I have nothing to base it on other than expressed opinions and attitudes. The example that I provide my children is much of what drives me.
I concede that my ego is very much invested in my professional accomplishments, goals, and dreams. My career high watermark fell short of my aspirations. Most of it was due to a poor job market but a lot due to the allure of easy living through FIRE. I do blame FIRE for robbing me of my motivation, and why wouldn't it? Working at the convenience of others is a drag. It is hard to have to get up early and drive to a menial position in hopes that it will bare fruit in a decade or two. Employment sucks,, right?
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.
Besides the bruised ego my issue is with my children. My grandfather was a decorated officer in the Navy during WWII. My father was one of the first aerospace engineers in the nation and is credited with many advances in the space program. As a child growing up in the shadows of these accomplished people my expectations and goals were formed through their example. I believe that our children pattern much of their self-esteem and life expectations from what we do. As a result, I am not comfortable with my accomplishments.
I still provide a manual labor function to my business because it gives me something to do and my kids get to see me work. My hope was to have been able to return to my chosen field and provide a different example, but it is not so easy to voluntarily stick one's head back into the noose of employment. My wife completed her college degree and started her career once the kids were all in school. She could sit at home too.
As I have mentioned before I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history. It is especially harmful to young people. I don't believe that it provides a good example for children who will pattern their expectations on what they see their parents doing with their time and gifts. I base these findings upon the study of generations of my family and from the results of my clients. I am an expert at FIRE and it comes with a downside. Everything does.
AGAIN you ignored what I posted.
Are you doing this on purpose, because it's really fucking rude.
Did you just not read the part about how people in retirement can take on all sorts of important roles and responsibilities if they want to?
Also, my father was unemployed for most of my childhood. He had made a lot of money and then didn't work for years. He was an EXCELLENT model for me because he was very present, very involved, challenged me constantly, held me to a very high intellectual standard. We spent a TON of time together, and almost all of our quality time together consisted of being heavily involved in community service.
And guess what, I retained a strong sense of community responsibility, which is why I have a lifetime of high end volunteer work, which is why in retirement, it's so easy for me to get very elite level volunteer roles where I make an important impact on the world.
You COULD do the same thing, but you choose not to, so what example does that set for your kid?
You are setting the example that their only value will be their job title, and that's some toxic shit.
For the record, I have mentored many, many young people and had to deprogram this corporate success bullshit from them to free them up to be able to make better professional decisions for themselves.
Modeling for a kid that the only way to have value and be happy is to be employed by a company that doesn't care about them is...concerning.
“What do you do?”
Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).
“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”
“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”
“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”
“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”
“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”
“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “
“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”
Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.
I appreciate your comments and shall take them to heart. In my case it feels diminished to share my appliance repair accomplishments to a professional. I can literally see their eyes glaze over.
Maybe it is a similar eyes glazing over that I probably get as I enthusiastically mention how cool I think personal finance and investing is. ;)
You don't have to impress other people and while it is nice to have other people like us, as adults we don't need to have our self esteem built around that. That is one of the liberating things about getting older, I find, is that I feel more free to be true to who I am inside and care a lot less about what others think.
Related to that point, I find that people respond instinctively to confidence, or the lack thereof. I think the whole reason you are uncomfortable in those social settings answering "what do you do?" is because of your own discomfort with what you are doing in life, not because of what others actually think of you. Can you try an experiment of "fake it until you make it"? Meaning, talk about whatever it is you have been doing with confidence and enthusiasm, even if you don't feel it inside, and see how people respond.
I'm thinking of @nippycrisp 's journal where he writes about things like when his fat landlord met his hairless cat, or when he was stuck driving in a small car with an irate primate in the backseat that started throwing feces. He has a ton of somewhat embarrassing or uncomfortable stories that are freaking hilarious because he fully leans in and owns it. (And because he is a good story teller). I could completely see myself being humiliated reflecting back on when an animal threw shit at me, or I could also remember it fondly knowing I had the BEST story to tell at the next happy hour. It is all in how you package the same thing.
...My goal is to strive to become my best self....
And you are failing at that miserably. Will you consider that I might have something to teach you here? If I am reading you right, you are not actually close minded. People who study intelligence, success, and other related concepts now recognize *at least* 7 different areas of achievement, intellect, etc. You are very fixated on a single element. And it is causing you to fail BIG TIME at <emotional> satisfaction/success/maturity. (I maintain this is a spiritual maturity issue.) I know you see yourself as hard working or at least intending to be hard working with a good work ethic. But on the very necessary emotional work we all need to do you are being enormously fucking lazy. (Sorry, if that was too harsh, but I think you need to be confronted with that.) Don't think your children pick up that at least subconsciously? You are training them to become existentially miserable adults. If you can't do 'inner work' for yourself; do it for them.
There are other success/intelligence areas that are important to master as well, kinesthetic, musical, numerical, spatial, interpersonal, intrapersonal, etc. No wonder you feel unfulfilled if you lack mastery in 6 of the 7 (or more) areas of human achievement! Adopting a faith and practice should get you ticking off more of the boxes. But if you want to remain completely secular, the ancient faith based tools that humans developed over 40,000 years have been recreated in modern format through the science of psychology. In my opinion, Jung does the best job of identifying tools for intrapersonal development. You might prefer a different psych school of thought though.... A version that provides service to others through the contribution of my best abilities...
Yes, I see that. You have a spirit for service and probably for teaching. But the best of your abilities has a very narrow scope. I (and others here) are trying to offer you the opportunity to develop a broader scope of skills, abilities, intelligences, perspectives, mindsets, approaches, etc. so that if service is what matters, you can provide more comprehensive service and education. You've been gifted an enormous opportunity to develop yourself into a superstar provider of service to mankind. But instead of taking action, you are wallowing in misery and just sort of kvetching. And that doesn't speak well as to your character. Do you understand that is what spiritual immaturity looks like? Do you understand that leads to being ineffective at service?
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?
People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?
You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.
Perhaps I am missing something? From my side of the screen, I am answering the questions.
“What do you do?”
Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).
“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”
“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”
“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”
“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”
“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”
“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “
“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”
Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.
I appreciate your comments and shall take them to heart. In my case it feels diminished to share my appliance repair accomplishments to a professional. I can literally see their eyes glaze over.
Maybe it is a similar eyes glazing over that I probably get as I enthusiastically mention how cool I think personal finance and investing is. ;)
You don't have to impress other people and while it is nice to have other people like us, as adults we don't need to have our self esteem built around that. That is one of the liberating things about getting older, I find, is that I feel more free to be true to who I am inside and care a lot less about what others think.
Related to that point, I find that people respond instinctively to confidence, or the lack thereof. I think the whole reason you are uncomfortable in those social settings answering "what do you do?" is because of your own discomfort with what you are doing in life, not because of what others actually think of you. Can you try an experiment of "fake it until you make it"? Meaning, talk about whatever it is you have been doing with confidence and enthusiasm, even if you don't feel it inside, and see how people respond.
I'm thinking of @nippycrisp 's journal where he writes about things like when his fat landlord met his hairless cat, or when he was stuck driving in a small car with an irate primate in the backseat that started throwing feces. He has a ton of somewhat embarrassing or uncomfortable stories that are freaking hilarious because he fully leans in and owns it. (And because he is a good story teller). I could completely see myself being humiliated reflecting back on when an animal threw shit at me, or I could also remember it fondly knowing I had the BEST story to tell at the next happy hour. It is all in how you package the same thing.
Sure, in the big picture none of it matters, right? It is the little things that we remember. We are in charge of our story. We get to decide how to tell it. I appreciate your comments. It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard.
“Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.”
― Ernest Hemingway, The Garden of Eden
Malcat,
I do not accept volunteerism as an adequate form of employment. As I mentioned before I spent a lot of wasted years volunteering for a lot of things. I was on various boards, I was a volunteer firefighter, I worked for advocates for the homeless, I have been a volunteer for the Forest Service.
I also have worked a couple of hobby jobs, ski chair lift operator, flight instructor, adjunct professor.
I spent way too much time taking unnecessary college classes to fill the time. I am bored of it all. It shouldn't happen to someone until they are much older. In my experience filling the time with useless hobbies and volunteerism is not the same at all as a well-paying meaningful career where you can make a difference.
Thanks FV,
I will take a look at Jung. I am not as intellectual as many of you here though.
Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...
Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.
You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.
So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?
You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh. You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.
Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?
If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here. Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.
All I can say is that my situation here is akin to running for office. Candidates repeat their message over and over again to an ever-changing audience. I am glad that you are paying attention though.
Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...
Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.
You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.
So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?
@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.
For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.
Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?
Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.
Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.
EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.
Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...
Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.
You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.
So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?
@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.
For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.
Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?
Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.
Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.
EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.
I have.
Doing work on internal vs external locus of control, getting good therapy. Also consider mindfulness meditation and CBT activities.
OP at any point could have asked me about this after I shared how I managed to mourn losing my career that I loved and the loss of a lot of the function of my body, but he doesn't seem very interested.
...
Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.
...
I'll go. I lost my career when I became a trailing spouse and moved overseas. I had a choice, but that choice would have been "live apart from my spouse for 2.5 years" (which turned out to be about 10 years) and that just wasn't viable.
It's been hard. We don't have children. I was always a career person. And then... I wasn't.
I spent a lot of time reframing. What was important to me? What did I think made someone a good human? What did I truly value? I asked these questions, and with each answer I asked "why" or "how" or some other question that dug to a deeper, more philosophical place. And that really helped me see what I valued, and who I wanted to be as a person--what mark I wanted to make on the world. It turns out that none of the answers had anything to do with employment, and a lot of my struggles were more about ego than actual fulfillment from work. I'd made a lot out of being a "career woman". That was my plan for my life. So when it went away, I floundered a bit, and my ego was left a bit unanchored, until I found new, more meaningful things to anchor it to. It's tough to articulate exactly how that happened, but it was just lot of self-questioning, and refusing to accepts my mind's lazy, automatic responses.
....
...
Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.
...
I'll go. I lost my career when I became a trailing spouse and moved overseas. I had a choice, but that choice would have been "live apart from my spouse for 2.5 years" (which turned out to be about 10 years) and that just wasn't viable.
It's been hard. We don't have children. I was always a career person. And then... I wasn't.
I spent a lot of time reframing. What was important to me? What did I think made someone a good human? What did I truly value? I asked these questions, and with each answer I asked "why" or "how" or some other question that dug to a deeper, more philosophical place. And that really helped me see what I valued, and who I wanted to be as a person--what mark I wanted to make on the world. It turns out that none of the answers had anything to do with employment, and a lot of my struggles were more about ego than actual fulfillment from work. I'd made a lot out of being a "career woman". That was my plan for my life. So when it went away, I floundered a bit, and my ego was left a bit unanchored, until I found new, more meaningful things to anchor it to. It's tough to articulate exactly how that happened, but it was just lot of self-questioning, and refusing to accepts my mind's lazy, automatic responses.
....
Thanks @Villanelle
That's very helpful. I have some work to do.
Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...
Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.
You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.
So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?
@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.
For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.
Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?
Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.
Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.
EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.
I have.
Doing work on internal vs external locus of control, getting good therapy. Also consider mindfulness meditation and CBT activities.
OP at any point could have asked me about this after I shared how I managed to mourn losing my career that I loved and the loss of a lot of the function of my body, but he doesn't seem very interested.
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.
Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.
Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)
As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.
Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now. My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.
A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.
I eagerly await your arrows.
People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite.
...
What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.
Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.
Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)
As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.
Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now. My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.
A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.
I eagerly await your arrows.
As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”. I eagerly await your arrows.For never was a story of more woe, than this of Skyhigh, the non-CEO.
I’ve had jobs that have required security clearances (Secret, TS/SCI) and counseling has not been a problem. It was something I acknowledged on background applications and as long as it was related to “grief“ I never got a second question.
I think l understand more where the OP is coming from and what the problem is. This doesn’t have anything to do with FIRE at all but it is class envy and a sense of missing dreams. OP grew up blue collar and had dreams of becoming white collar. “White collar” being defined by his own definition that includes a high powered corporate career. He feels like FIRE isn’t the reward after working and saving but missing out on the white collar dream and getting sent back to a blue collar existence.
I don’t have anything useful for that except to reiterate what everyone else has been saying: go talk to a professional. Maybe you can work through this and get to a point of figuring out how to get what you’ve wanted or learning to be happy with the great things you have achieved and the enviable you are already in.
Perhaps it is a class thing where white collar people feel more comfortable not having looking rich or professional from the outside, like Mark Zuckerberg bumming around in hjs hoodies because he knows he is rich and successful? I know I had big desires for nice clothes and name brand purses and all of that when I had no money to my name. The more my net worth grows the more I want to wear yoga pants and socks with holes in them and just not care what anyone thinks.
I’ve had jobs that have required security clearances (Secret, TS/SCI) and counseling has not been a problem. It was something I acknowledged on background applications and as long as it was related to “grief“ I never got a second question.
I think l understand more where the OP is coming from and what the problem is. This doesn’t have anything to do with FIRE at all but it is class envy and a sense of missing dreams. OP grew up blue collar and had dreams of becoming white collar. “White collar” being defined by his own definition that includes a high powered corporate career. He feels like FIRE isn’t the reward after working and saving but missing out on the white collar dream and getting sent back to a blue collar existence.
I don’t have anything useful for that except to reiterate what everyone else has been saying: go talk to a professional. Maybe you can work through this and get to a point of figuring out how to get what you’ve wanted or learning to be happy with the great things you have achieved and the enviable you are already in.
Perhaps it is a class thing where white collar people feel more comfortable not having looking rich or professional from the outside, like Mark Zuckerberg bumming around in hjs hoodies because he knows he is rich and successful? I know I had big desires for nice clothes and name brand purses and all of that when I had no money to my name. The more my net worth grows the more I want to wear yoga pants and socks with holes in them and just not care what anyone thinks.
Counselling was also never a problem for mine or DH's security clearance, our reasons were always listed as "maintenance"
Also, yes, obviously OP's issue is missing out on his dreams, but he blames FIRE because according to him, it's basically impossible to feel motivated to accomplish anything substantial professionally without the gun to his head of needing the money to survive.
Early in this thread he made it very clear that the reason his dreams haven't been fulfilled is because it's just too easy not to when you have a lot of money.
THAT is how he thinks FIRE has ruined his life.
Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command, and, in one word, whatever are not our actions. The things in our control are by nature free, unrestrained, unhindered; but those not in our control are weak, slavish, restrained, belonging to others. Remember, then, that if you suppose that things which are slavish by nature are also free, and that what belongs to others is your own, then you will be hindered. You will lament, you will be disturbed, and you will find fault both with gods and men. But if you suppose that only to be your own which is your own, and what belongs to others such as it really is, then no one will ever compel you or restrain you. Further, you will find fault with no one or accuse no one. You will do nothing against your will. No one will hurt you, you will have no enemies, and you not be harmed.
It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.
Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)
As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.
I eagerly await your arrows.
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.
Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?
Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.
Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?
Hi Malcat,
In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.
It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.
It is not depression to be dissatisfied.
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.
Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?
Hi Malcat,
In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.
It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.
It is not depression to be dissatisfied.
Forgive me if I don't take your word on it. I find it hard to believe that an entire, massive industry would hold such an archaic and dangerous position as being opposed to its employees getting therapy. That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
(But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are correct while I look it up myself)
Also, as I said already, if you paid out of pocket for therapy, your employer wouldn't even likely be entitled to know about it. For fuck's sake, even a decent coach would probably do you a world of good, and there's absolutely no way the aviation industry would have any right to know that you sought out coaching.
Basically, if you wanted help with being happier in life, you could easily get it.
Also, I am a trained medical professional with extensive training in psychology AND training clinical counselling. In no way is my assessment that you should seek therapy a frivolous or misguided one.
No one needs to be mentally ill to benefit from counselling. The vast majority of people who seek therapy are not mentally ill, just struggling with the normal challenges of life.
You have openly admitted many, many times that you are unhappy and dissatisfied with your life. That makes you the PERFECT candidate for counselling.
Even if I TOTALLY agreed with you about the cause of your misery, I would STILL recommend counselling for you. STRONGLY.
ETA: a quick google indicates that the issue for American pilots is not that they can't get counselling, it's that being diagnosed with a mental illness could be problematic for their careers. But as I said, you don't need to have a mental illness to benefit from counselling.
The catch 22 for working pilots though is that they can't get referrals to counsellors *within their insurance* without a diagnosis.
All in all though, it doesn't look like there's any barrier for an out of work pilot who doesn't have a significant mental illness to seek maintenance counselling to better improve their capacity to enjoy life and resolve their pesky, toxic external locus of control issues.
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.
Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?
Hi Malcat,
In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.
It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.
It is not depression to be dissatisfied.
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.
Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?
Hi Malcat,
In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.
It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.
It is not depression to be dissatisfied.
Forgive me if I don't take your word on it. I find it hard to believe that an entire, massive industry would hold such an archaic and dangerous position as being opposed to its employees getting therapy. That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
(But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are correct while I look it up myself)
Also, as I said already, if you paid out of pocket for therapy, your employer wouldn't even likely be entitled to know about it. For fuck's sake, even a decent coach would probably do you a world of good, and there's absolutely no way the aviation industry would have any right to know that you sought out coaching.
Basically, if you wanted help with being happier in life, you could easily get it.
Also, I am a trained medical professional with extensive training in psychology AND training clinical counselling. In no way is my assessment that you should seek therapy a frivolous or misguided one.
No one needs to be mentally ill to benefit from counselling. The vast majority of people who seek therapy are not mentally ill, just struggling with the normal challenges of life.
You have openly admitted many, many times that you are unhappy and dissatisfied with your life. That makes you the PERFECT candidate for counselling.
Even if I TOTALLY agreed with you about the cause of your misery, I would STILL recommend counselling for you. STRONGLY.
ETA: a quick google indicates that the issue for American pilots is not that they can't get counselling, it's that being diagnosed with a mental illness could be problematic for their careers. But as I said, you don't need to have a mental illness to benefit from counselling.
The catch 22 for working pilots though is that they can't get referrals to counsellors *within their insurance* without a diagnosis.
All in all though, it doesn't look like there's any barrier for an out of work pilot who doesn't have a significant mental illness to seek maintenance counselling to better improve their capacity to enjoy life and resolve their pesky, toxic external locus of control issues.
Malcat,
Even in Europe if a pilot seeks help they are risking losing their medical. No one says that you can't seek help, however, once you do you then are in a position of having to defend yourself against a huge government entity who has no interest in helping you. It is a huge problem. There are political groups in the USA that are trying to force reform.
I had a buddy who fell off the roof and was prescribed opioids during his recovery. As a result, the FAA had him prove that he wasn't a drug addict. He worked in law enforcement and did not even need to take the medication. It is the way the government works. Guilty until proven innocent.
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.
Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?
Hi Malcat,
In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.
It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.
It is not depression to be dissatisfied.
@Skyhigh
Maybe I'm an outlier but I'm not from any sort of elite background. I'm white/Caucasian and have that source of privilege but have none of the other things you think are essential to corporate success.
My mother grew up poor and migratory (I honestly believe grandma and grandpa were "running from the law") rarely spending more than 6 weeks in any one town. Grandparents were both alcoholics. My father didn't finish 8th grade (dropped out, lied to a Navy recruiter about his age and became a sailor). He grew up in deep poverty in rural Louisiana and worked manual labor jobs all his life. I was not so poor that I ever missed a meal and I always had shoes and winter coat to wear. But I was poor enough that I had a Christmas where there was money for gifts for my brother but not for me. We re-wrapped things I already owned and put them under the tree to put on a show for my brother.
I was the first in my extended family to go to college. I had to pay my own way through and I didn't have the historical family knowledge of how to get scholarships/internships/etc. So I worked my ass off at minimum wage or barely better jobs and took 8 years to get a 4 year degree. Since, I had worked exclusively for a time and attended school exclusively for a time, I discovered unstructured time was very valuable to me. I was an Economics major and worked well with spreadsheets and modeled out a 10 year retirement plan. I like to say I "failed well" because it took me 14 years.
I didn't know anyone in the corporate world or even anyone in the class of construction trades that was well off enough to own their trucks. I didn't know how to properly comport myself at corporate social functions. And I am weird, and awkward, and anxious, and have weird facial tics because I have Tourette's Syndrome. But I ascended far enough up into the ranks to be placed on the "insider roster". I rubbed elbows with the C-suite every quarter end (they were dependent on my analysis for the earnings call). It was clear I wasn't one of "them" but they let me into their circle because I was useful.
Respectfully, (really - with RESPECT), I feel like I have NOT judged you or attacked you. Sure, confronted you, out of concern for your needs. I believe I have cared for you and tried to help you. (Agree?) You are against counseling but you could do some non counseling things that recenter your locus of control. You could take up a meditation practice (5 minutes a day does wonders). You could do a Core Values study - discover what makes you tick; and start taking positive steps to live your life according to your values. You strike me as Agnostic so Scripture study is probably not appropriate. But you can study (and apply) Jung. And you can read Thoreau's "Walden". That is a cherished piece of American literature that is very FIRE appropriate. I'll give you a hint for interpretation. It isn't about a man who goes into the woods to fiddle fart around. It's about a man who goes into HIMSELF (mostly to fiddle fart around.) Therein, he finds his own personal truth and beauty. There is a great deal of emotional/psychological/spiritual value in idle self introspection and reflection. "Above all else this: Know Thyself."
I've been RE for 9.5 years (since age 40). And while, I'm not delighted like many here claim to be, I have a very deep sense of contentment. Accounting never became my identity, was not who I was; it was something I did for money (b/c I was good at it) and it provided enough financial surplus to save for an exit to the unstructured time that is necessary for my happiness.
Again, respectfully, there are some important life lessons you are completely missing out on and some important intra-personal skills you lack. Learnable skills. Being stuck in misery for 20 years is not healthy. I'll add that being stuck in misery for 20 years is also a CHOICE. And for an American it is really wasteful of the very special opportunities you have been given.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
I am absolutely flabbergasted at how this guy has 100% NO IDEA what FIRE even means.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
I am absolutely flabbergasted at how this guy has 100% NO IDEA what FIRE even means.
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.
Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.
Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)
As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.
Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now. My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.
A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.
I eagerly await your arrows.
Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.
You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.
I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.
In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.
You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.
So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.
Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.
Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)
As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.
Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now. My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.
A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.
I eagerly await your arrows.
Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.
You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.
I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.
In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.
You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.
So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.
Malcat,
I don't doubt that in a holistic sense I do have everything that I need. We are living a good life in a safe part of the world. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family to a fantastic degree. However, it is my belief that dissatisfaction is the mother of all progress. Show me an artist that is satisfied and you will see someone who is past their best accomplishments. Had I been satisfied to remain employed as a gas station attendant then there I would have remained.
Your belief is wrong, I grew up in a community of artists, many are among the happiest people I know because they are pursuing their dreams.
“Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.” ~ Ernest Hemingway
Hemingway is also pretty full of shit. Pretty much all of my friends have doctorates, and they're not on average any less happy than the general population, although the general population isn't very happy. Probably because they don't get proper therapy ;)
Doing nothing is not a worthy goal. Striving to underachieve is not a virtue. The concept of retirement is a recent development in human history. It is not natural. Our purpose should be more than to exist without having to produce anything of value to the outside world. I don't believe that it is healthy.
You keep repeating this, and yet many people in retirement do amazing, meaningful things. Being financially independent doesn't hold anyone back from doing meaningful things, being lazy and self defeating sure does though.
Often we don't realize the full consequences of our life choices until we are older and can take stock. I am reaching an age where the cost is becoming more apparent. My children wanted to watch the movie "Star Trek Generations" last weekend. A major theme in that film is about the opportunity cost of the choices made in life. Primary characters were lamenting their career versus personal life choices. I am not unusual. It is a common situation.
Yep, I've made TONS of terrible decisions. I keep moving forward.
I am bummed is all. I have ambition, drive, and a will to suceed.
If this was true, you would be doing something about it other than whining. Do you actually want advice? It doesn't seem like it.
Thank you FV, I greatly appreciate everything that you write. My professional goals are not within my ability to control. I could not stop a recession. I am not in control of my employer's outcome. I can't make it rain.
Thank you FV, I greatly appreciate everything that you write. My professional goals are not within my ability to control. I could not stop a recession. I am not in control of my employer's outcome. I can't make it rain.
@Skyhigh
I'm amazed and frustrated. You are still not groking. What IS in your control? What positive steps can you take TODAY to improve your personal life satisfaction? Do something; anything, to get your energy unstuck. I know you cherish work ethic. But in this area of personal emotional care you are being enormously lazy. It isn't healthy to accept a default lifestyle that makes you miserable and fail to take action for over two decades. You could have liquidated your real estate empire and bought/financed a Super King Air and started a charter service probably a decade ago. Could have started a restaurant empire. Could have done about a zillion things that would give you more satisfaction than mowing lawns. Hell, you could started a landscaping service so it is justified to pay someone to mow your properties. Could have built out a property management company, with enough revenue to support hiring a general manager and gained enough freedom to pursue a career as an acrobatic pilot.
I have a secret. I once dreamed of being an airline pilot too. I got about 35 hours into my PP training before I decided I was getting airsick too often, having too much trouble finding airports, and noticed my vision was declining (big negative for a commercial airline pilot in 1993), before giving up and ultimately becoming an accountant. I did something much less glamorous than I had hoped. It didn't make me miserable. I CHOSE to find satisfaction in life. You CHOOSE to be miserable and it is very unhealthy.
Notice how malcat keeps circling back to having an 'external locus of control?" She is hitting the nail on the head. You are not helpless. You have far more latitude to chart your own course than 99% of the people who have ever lived. Just because you are "keeping busy" with RE doesn't mean you are being "productive". You need to be making better/smarter use of your time.
You deserve to be happy. Let me say it a again: you DESERVE to be happy. And you can be, but you have to take action. Lots of people have suggested therapy and I get that is problematic for you. I have given you half a dozen other tools you can pursue to become more emotionally well adjusted. But so far, it looks like you choose misery over action. Observing that makes me sad.
Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...
Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.
You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.
So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?
@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.
For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.
Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?
Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.
Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.
EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.
I have.
Doing work on internal vs external locus of control, getting good therapy. Also consider mindfulness meditation and CBT activities.
OP at any point could have asked me about this after I shared how I managed to mourn losing my career that I loved and the loss of a lot of the function of my body, but he doesn't seem very interested.
I'll go. I lost my career when I became a trailing spouse and moved overseas. I had a choice, but that choice would have been "live apart from my spouse for 2.5 years" (which turned out to be about 10 years) and that just wasn't viable.
It's been hard. We don't have children. I was always a career person. And then... I wasn't.
I spent a lot of time reframing. What was important to me? What did I think made someone a good human? What did I truly value? I asked these questions, and with each answer I asked "why" or "how" or some other question that dug to a deeper, more philosophical place. And that really helped me see what I valued, and who I wanted to be as a person--what mark I wanted to make on the world. It turns out that none of the answers had anything to do with employment, and a lot of my struggles were more about ego than actual fulfillment from work. I'd made a lot out of being a "career woman". That was my plan for my life. So when it went away, I floundered a bit, and my ego was left a bit unanchored, until I found new, more meaningful things to anchor it to. It's tough to articulate exactly how that happened, but it was just lot of self-questioning, and refusing to accepts my mind's lazy, automatic responses.
~~~
OP, if you were laid off from the airlines (not fired or let go for cause), why don't you go back? They are hiring like crazy. There was a bit of a pause during the height of Covid, but they are once again scooping up every semi-qualified body. So why not go back to the airlines?
Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.
Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.
Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)
As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.
Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now. My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.
A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.
I eagerly await your arrows.
Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.
You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.
I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.
In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.
You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.
So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.
Malcat,
I don't doubt that in a holistic sense I do have everything that I need. We are living a good life in a safe part of the world. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family to a fantastic degree. However, it is my belief that dissatisfaction is the mother of all progress. Show me an artist that is satisfied and you will see someone who is past their best accomplishments. Had I been satisfied to remain employed as a gas station attendant then there I would have remained.
Your belief is wrong, I grew up in a community of artists, many are among the happiest people I know because they are pursuing their dreams.
“Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.” ~ Ernest Hemingway
Hemingway is also pretty full of shit. Pretty much all of my friends have doctorates, and they're not on average any less happy than the general population, although the general population isn't very happy. Probably because they don't get proper therapy ;)
Doing nothing is not a worthy goal. Striving to underachieve is not a virtue. The concept of retirement is a recent development in human history. It is not natural. Our purpose should be more than to exist without having to produce anything of value to the outside world. I don't believe that it is healthy.
You keep repeating this, and yet many people in retirement do amazing, meaningful things. Being financially independent doesn't hold anyone back from doing meaningful things, being lazy and self defeating sure does though.
Often we don't realize the full consequences of our life choices until we are older and can take stock. I am reaching an age where the cost is becoming more apparent. My children wanted to watch the movie "Star Trek Generations" last weekend. A major theme in that film is about the opportunity cost of the choices made in life. Primary characters were lamenting their career versus personal life choices. I am not unusual. It is a common situation.
Yep, I've made TONS of terrible decisions. I keep moving forward.
I am bummed is all. I have ambition, drive, and a will to suceed.
If this was true, you would be doing something about it other than whining. Do you actually want advice? It doesn't seem like it.
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.
Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?
Hi Malcat,
In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.
It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.
It is not depression to be dissatisfied.
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.
Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?
Hi Malcat,
In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.
It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.
It is not depression to be dissatisfied.
pilots can seek the help of a mental health professional without the fear of it having a a detrimental affect on their ability to hold a medical certificate. Item 19 on the FAA Form 8500-8, stated that visits to mental health professionals were reportable ONLY if it was due to alcohol/substance abuse OR resulted in a personal psychiatric diagnosis. Pilots who are functioning well but are seeking to improve their situation have no obligation to report that form of counseling.
I've honestly never made this little traction with someone like this before.
I've honestly never made this little traction with someone like this before.
Skyhigh is enormously STUCK! I know a guy who is almost as deeply stuck in a completely different manner. But he at least recognizes his shit is borked and is open to suggestions.
I take it you (malcat) are not spiritually oriented? I have no fewer than four basket cases I'm working with right now. Never in my life have I seen so many instances of destructive Spiritual Immaturity. (And I mean true spirituality, not being cool with a church clique). I think the combination of political division and Covid is wearing on people to the point of breaking. Anyway, point is, I see your spirit of service and promise you that Christ honors you for that. Perhaps moreso if it is a service absent of faith as that is truly selfless. You can publicly denounce me as "sort of stupid" if you reject that. I will not diminish my respect for your expertise and experience.
OP needs a wake-up kick in the groin. But OP also needs compassion - clearly suffering.
People often assume that (nonspiritual) about me. I have a very interesting relationship with faith and religion, and spent a lot of last year debating church doctrine with a study group of ministers.
OP absolutely needs compassion, because everyone does, but the line between compassion and enabling when someone is engaging in self destructive beliefs is very, very blurry.
Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.
You have a good idea there. However, my main experience is with FIRE. I grew up with it. I have clients whom I help to achieve FIRE. I have seen the benefits and drawbacks. It is my main profession.
People often assume that (nonspiritual) about me. I have a very interesting relationship with faith and religion, and spent a lot of last year debating church doctrine with a study group of ministers.
OP absolutely needs compassion, because everyone does, but the line between compassion and enabling when someone is engaging in self destructive beliefs is very, very blurry.
Praise Christ (or the Diety of your choice) then! I sense, intuit, [hand waving spiritual BS] - FEEL, that OP needs more compassion than mule-kicking at this moment. I sense an enormous amount of unprocessed trauma, an enormous amount of self doubt.
How do you feel about Jung? I adore that approach to personal fulfillment. Even though I do a really shitty job of applying Jung's lessons. Shit, I do a really shitty job of applying Christ's lessons. My faith is very scarred by negative experiences. Damned if it isn't somehow still functional. My prayers are offered in this moment to you and to Skyhigh; in the name of the Son of Man, who is Jesus the Christ, my personal Savior, forever and ever. [Amen].
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.
Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.
Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)
I think we made a breakthrough here! He OP is unhappy because he wasn't born into an elite family. Since we can't change who our parents are, I guess the OP is screwed.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Are you on drugs?
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
You have a really fucked up view of work.
I get that you don't enjoy your real estate work, but maybe don't be a blatant classis to snob about it and totally disrespectful to people who work those kinds of jobs.
Also, in what universe do self employed people do more work they don't want to do the employees? In fact, don't we have tons of people here dreaming of being self employed so that they won't be forced to do as much shit that they don't want to do?
We get it, you don't enjoy the job you chose to do. WE FUCKING GET IT. But that has nothing to do with FIRE.
You have yet to convince anyone that your case is anything beyond a dude who hates his job.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
You have a really fucked up view of work.
I get that you don't enjoy your real estate work, but maybe don't be a blatant classis to snob about it and totally disrespectful to people who work those kinds of jobs.
Also, in what universe do self employed people do more work they don't want to do the employees? In fact, don't we have tons of people here dreaming of being self employed so that they won't be forced to do as much shit that they don't want to do?
We get it, you don't enjoy the job you chose to do. WE FUCKING GET IT. But that has nothing to do with FIRE.
You have yet to convince anyone that your case is anything beyond a dude who hates his job.
I believe that my position does have a lot to do with FIRE. Imagine the lottery winner or one-hit-wonder musician. Once they reach a place of financial independence their motivation commonly leaves. The resulting decay exposes one to all kinds of mental and lifestyle complications. People who retire early are removed from the flow of life. They are often estranged from their peers. Their purpose becomes obscured. Self-esteem erodes.
Once cherished rare opportunities to pursue a hobby become a commonplace daily routine. The days blur into one another and the benefit becomes a curse. As previously determined you are an outlier. You hold a special determination to overcome external and internal challenges. Most others do not have the same resolve and sink into the abyss of doing nothing. I see it all the time. I also experienced it.
People delude themselves into the fantasy of doing nothing. They convince themselves that they can retire at 35 on a million dollars of savings without considering the unlimited opportunities that life offers to squash their savings. They surrender their professional momentum with the assumption that their industry will welcome them back if needed when the reverse is often the case.
We have precious years of being young. It compels people to abandon their professions to travel the road less traveled without understanding the potential consequences it may bring. My advice is to consider staying the course. Remain healthy and you can blow 30 years in retirement doing that stuff. However, it loses its appeal quickly.
No, you never did the early retirement thing. You were laid off and decided to go into self-employment. That's not retirement, that's a career change. FIRE implies you have the freedom to not do self-employment if you don't enjoy it. There's a wide world of other things to do that aren't "long stretches of idle wasted days." It's not a binary choice between unenjoyable manual labor vs. sitting around on the couch.
He wants to keep smashing his head against the wall obviously. He's not here for an honest dialogue. He's here to proselytize and that means not answering questions that stray from the message, especially when you point out logical holes. I've been in discussions with a few very religious folks who acted in a similar manner.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.
Please explain, do you mean Fired" as in fired from a job? I have the means to do nothing every day if I wanted. I have spent many long stretches of idle wasted days as a classicly unencumbered van-life FIRE person also.
In my 20's "van-life" was considered to be homelessness. It wasn't a cool fad.
Financially Independent - "The status of having enough income to pay one's living expenses for the rest of one's live without employment or being dependent upon others".
Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age".
I very much quality as FIRE. My point is that I have continued work functions as a means of staving off boredom and providing an example to my children of how adults are supposed to go to work every day and strive towards their dreams. My dreams were of a professional nature. Yesterday I shoveled snow.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
You weren't *FORCED*. You chose that. You did. You've actually told us that repeatedly. You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.
You are not a victim of this. You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together. You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit. These things didn't happen to you. You chose them.
You are not a victim of a cruel world here. You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor. Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices. If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.
Please explain, do you mean Fired" as in fired from a job? I have the means to do nothing every day if I wanted. I have spent many long stretches of idle wasted days as a classicly unencumbered van-life FIRE person also.
In my 20's "van-life" was considered to be homelessness. It wasn't a cool fad.
Financially Independent - "The status of having enough income to pay one's living expenses for the rest of one's live without employment or being dependent upon others".
Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age".
I very much quality as FIRE. My point is that I have continued work functions as a means of staving off boredom and providing an example to my children of how adults are supposed to go to work every day and strive towards their dreams. My dreams were of a professional nature. Yesterday I shoveled snow.
Many people have explained this in this thread. It's clear you just don't want to understand because it doesn't fit with your narrative. But Im a glutton for punishment, so....
YOU WERE STILL WORKING. Therefore, you were not retired, therefore you were not FIREd.
Not working at the job you want doesn't mean retired. Working for yourself instead of for some faceless corporation doesn't mean you are retired. Owning and actively working rental properties is WORKING. From your ow definition, you did not "Cease to function professionally". You were a landlord and property manager, and doing those things for money. So you were a professional landlord and property manager, which means you had a professional function.
It’s clear you have conflated being retired with doing nothing, and that you are correlating the need to work with having a clear purpose in life.I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
You weren't *FORCED*. You chose that. You did. You've actually told us that repeatedly. You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.
You are not a victim of this. You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together. You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit. These things didn't happen to you. You chose them.
You are not a victim of a cruel world here. You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor. Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices. If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.
Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.
However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.
When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives? It is just my opinion.
The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients. I understand the appeal. You are miserable and worn out in your overworked professional lives.
The idea of lazy days selling turnips at the farmer's market is not a complete picture. Van life can lose its charm fast. Yesterday I was reading an article in the USA Today and there is actually a term for those who return to work after retirement. It is called a "Boomerang Employee". Sometimes it means going back to a previous employer, however often it means putting in the blue vest.
That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.
Right, I choose not to do nothing.
It’s clear you have conflated being retired with doing nothing, and that you are correlating the need to work with having a clear purpose in life.I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
You weren't *FORCED*. You chose that. You did. You've actually told us that repeatedly. You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.
You are not a victim of this. You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together. You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit. These things didn't happen to you. You chose them.
You are not a victim of a cruel world here. You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor. Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices. If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.
Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.
However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.
When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives? It is just my opinion.
Understanding that both of those are completely false would help you understand why you appear to be so disillusioned with the FIRE community and why you are so unhappy with your choices.
In 7+ pages of this thread I’ve seen you take almost not accountability for your choices, and I’ve heard a constant refrain from you that you had no real choices but the ones you ultimately took. Perversely, you blame your own apparent success for your unhappiness, rather than what seems so painfully obvious to all other participants - that you ‘succeeded’ in areas that held little interest to you, and you frequently chose to do things you openly distain. There is little wonder you ultimately find things to be somewhat lacking.
Worse, there’s a number of people who are actively trying to help you through these issues. It’s maddening to watch you sidestep , dodge and ignore repeated questions and comments from these very thoughtful and skilled posters.
Only you can decide to live a wonderful life. You have so many things inherently in your favor it’s ridiculous. To reiterate about a dozen other posters, FIRE is not what has made you unhappy. It doesnt’ even seem like you have ever been truly FIRE.
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Can you please explain what that means? Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.
Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code. Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.
Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
You weren't *FORCED*. You chose that. You did. You've actually told us that repeatedly. You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.
You are not a victim of this. You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together. You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit. These things didn't happen to you. You chose them.
You are not a victim of a cruel world here. You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor. Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices. If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.
Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.
However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.
When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives? It is just my opinion.
The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients.
That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
Indeed. FIRE is not a way to "provide" for a family it's something you can choose to do if you have *already* provided.
The disconnect here is just. so. profound.
The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients. I understand the appeal. You are miserable and worn out in your overworked professional lives.
The idea of lazy days selling turnips at the farmer's market is not a complete picture. Van life can lose its charm fast. Yesterday I was reading an article in the USA Today and there is actually a term for those who return to work after retirement. It is called a "Boomerang Employee". Sometimes it means going back to a previous employer, however often it means putting in the blue vest.
That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread. By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment. Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates. So, he's never RE'd.
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread. By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment. Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates. So, he's never RE'd.
Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means? Or the FI part for that matter…
@Skyhigh
I hear you. FIRE is not a magic bullet. And it is not for everyone. For some, it could even be toxic. A friend of mine could easily FIRE in 3-5 if she would stop spending 15 dollars a day on Starbucks, driving luxury vehicles on lease, overconsuming housing, weekly mani/pedi, weekly spa, and being just redonkulously consumerist. But to her spending money is happiness. I'm convinced she would be even more unhappy in early retirement, even if she could still afford "all the things". She needs the cycle. She rather have a long hours slog of pointless meetings, chasing borked reconciliations, and forever behind the 8-ball of a monthly/quarterly close cycle. I was once "pretty good" at that game. But it brought me no joy. It was passionless. So I stopped doing it. Clue: I had "choices".
FIRE is probably not for you either [for very different reasons]. I have no problem with that. I was always kind of weird. Square peg. I never fit in to work/consume/die. I never fit into [advance a career]. I fit in to FIRE. For the first time in 40 years I fit. I'm deeply content after 9.5 years of idleness. You seem to be judging people who choose FIRE and are very happy with the outcome. You also seem to be judging laborers. My first professional job, we had a truck driver from upper crust society and an MS in Finance. He preferred to drive a truck into oilfields and deliver barite. He would think you sort of insane.
So I hold nothing against you for your CHOICE to engage in self employment. What bugs the crap out of me is you CHOOSE to be miserable. You have some very #firstworldproblems. A little gratitude would probably go a long way for you. Might even break the cycle of viewing life as a [bad thing] that happens TO you. Surely, you would be happier if you could cultivate an attitude that you are a force of nature that is happening to the world. And you can truly be that type of dynamo. A layoff and real estate career isn't exactly a gun to your head. You can choose, starting right now; happiness. Or at least contentment.
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread. By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment. Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates. So, he's never RE'd.
Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means? Or the FI part for that matter…
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread. By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment. Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates. So, he's never RE'd.
Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means? Or the FI part for that matter…
Did we just solve the miscommunication?
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread. By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment. Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates. So, he's never RE'd.
Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means? Or the FI part for that matter…
Did we just solve the miscommunication?
No - he states he thinks RE is "Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age"."
He's got a fixation on "professional", which I think to him means being a doctor, lawyer, or airline pilot for a major airline. All the rest doesn't count.
I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family
I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history
I do not accept volunteerism as an adequate form of employment
wasted years volunteering
taking unnecessary college classes to fill the time. I am bored of it all.
wasted years volunteering
It shouldn't happen to someone until they are much older
useless hobbies and volunteerism
I cannot imagine a life where my guiding (and perhaps only) principle is that predatory capitalism is the only metric of a human's worth.This x10
I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career.
I cannot imagine a life where my guiding (and perhaps only) principle is that predatory capitalism is the only metric of a human's worth.
Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.
The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.
For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals.
My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.
Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.
I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.
Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.
Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.
This is where you consistently trip up and get this fundamentally wrong. You may believe this is the case for yourself, though you don’t actually know because it sounds like you have never been FIREd yourself. We are here all together telling you that this is NOT a universal experience. It is wrong of you to continue insisting that it is in the face of all evidence to the contrary.
*** I hope you enjoyed your holidays.
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."
Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread. By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment. Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates. So, he's never RE'd.
Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means? Or the FI part for that matter…
Did we just solve the miscommunication?
No - he states he thinks RE is "Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age"."
He's got a fixation on "professional", which I think to him means being a doctor, lawyer, or airline pilot for a major airline. All the rest doesn't count.
The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.
For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals.
My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.
Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.
I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.
Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.
The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.
For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals.
My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.
Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.
I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.
Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.
Pete had a friend rePete what's Pete's friends name
Seriously I can understand why no one is hiring you. You don't have the ability to be presented information process it and respond to it.
Again with the turnips! :) :)
Not having just fallen off the turnip truck I'm with Candide, "one must cultivate one's own garden". You seem to keep very busy in your garden of FIRE nay saying, although maybe not digging very deep. But in the end, to each his or her own turnips.
Right, if a neurologist abandons their profession early to sell turnips at the farmers market it is not a benefit to themselves or to the world at large. Some of us have been blessed with the intelligence, education, opportunity, and resources to achieve a higher function in this life.
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks
Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today! my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks
Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today! my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.
I don’t have a good answer for that. FIRE is in competition with other goals.
Whooosh
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks
Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today! my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.
I don’t have a good answer for that. FIRE is in competition with other goals.
Whooosh
Maybe the op could use a trip to Derek Zoolander's school ?
The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.
For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals.
My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.
Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.
I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.
Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.
The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.
For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals.
My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.
Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.
I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.
Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.
How do you deal with the fundamental hypocrisy of thinking FIRE is terrible for people, and taking money from people to help them achieve FIRE? You think it is "not healthy or normal" but your life's work is pushing people toward it. Personally, I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror in the morning if I knew I was going to spend my days doing something I thought was fundamentally damaging to people. I'd feel like an epic a-hole in that scenario, and I'd end it immediately.
And your insistence that retirement is just laying around and gardening is a fundamental lack of imagination and some ignorant stereotyping. People have posted example after example, but you just ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative or martyrdom and self-pity. I actually hope you are a troll, because that is probably a more mild form of pitiable than if all of this is real.
I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.
It’s like a big train wreck. I know I shouldn’t look but somehow I just can’t stop myself.
I think we have all concluded this thread is hopeless.
I was going to add a perspective on how people really don't want others to solve their problems, they want genuine empathetic recognition of the depth of them, but the article you just posted says it all SO WELL. Great points that I see applying to people I know, dealt a terrible hand years ago and can't transcend it (also this may be a form of PTSD).Emphasis mine. I barely have anything to say except "this framing helped me." Thank you.
To me the goal is to expand the self-efficacy/agency in one area of life to other areas where one may not be able to "get past" painful events. Almost everyone has at least one thing in life that they don't even question their efficacy at. Ironically, even if this is a "negative" (say, in my case, I know I can always enjoy delicious food but I also complain about my weight gain), there are people (say with GI problems, or an eating disorder) who would see eating whatever you want as a tremendous luxury. When you can finally observe your own latent agency and then use it to tackle other problems, that's powerful.
I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.
Senior management here. We’ve been hiring as fast as possible and have taken on several formerly self-employed people. They are wonderful, and we don’t consider self employment to be a negative on a resume. What I can say here is that there are a ton of red flags that would make me hesitant to give you a second interview, and none have to do with your history of self-employment or “FIRE”.
Thanks to this conversation I have hired a career coach.[I know I shouldn't ask this, or post on this thread, having tried to help the OP in a
I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.
Senior management here. We’ve been hiring as fast as possible and have taken on several formerly self-employed people. They are wonderful, and we don’t consider self employment to be a negative on a resume. What I can say here is that there are a ton of red flags that would make me hesitant to give you a second interview, and none have to do with your history of self-employment or “FIRE”.
I would strongly encourage you to read through www.askamanager.com (http://www.askamanager.com) for some very real advice. With some critical reflection I believe you can pinpoint several reasons why you have had minimal success and - with a lot of practice - you could change your fortunes around
Good luck!
Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.
Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.
I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.
Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.
Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.
I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.
Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.
Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.
The plot is that a 30-something couple has high paying corporate jobs they hate. They run the numbers and conclude they can sell everything, RE and RV across the country full time. The wife promptly losing their nest egg gambling. They are forced to take menial jobs and living in near-poverty. They conclude they want their soul-sucking corporate jobs back.
Moral of the story: Don't lose your life savings gambling.
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks
Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today! my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.
I don’t have a good answer for that. FIRE is in competition with other goals.
Whooosh
Some of us have been blessed with the intelligence, education, opportunity, and resources to achieve a higher function in this life.
Woah I just stumbled on this and it's like a neural network training itself for 2 years to write a bunch of disjointed rants about financial insecurity and lack of motivation.
It's been two days and I can still hear the giant sucking sound.Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.
Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks
Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today! my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.
I don’t have a good answer for that. FIRE is in competition with other goals.
Whooosh
@boarder42 , I don't think you could have imagined theutterly cluelessamazing reply you were going to get when you posted that, but I have to give you serious props nonetheless. I mean...wow. I was going to post more comments to address the OP's "points", but you demonstrated with amazing clarity how futile that would have been. Thank you. The OP's response to your post is stunning.
And don't forget Paul and Vicky Terhorst authors of "Cashing in on the American Dream: How to Retire at 35". This link is 10 years old but there are a million others out there that are newer. I just like to read Bogelheads comments ;-).
Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.
Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.
I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.
Billy and Akaisha Kaderli are actual real-life people who retired from their jobs in 1991 at the age of 38. They have been doing it for four decades, and still going strong.
https://www.retireearlylifestyle.com/profile.htm
Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60974
High powered executive and spouse quit their jobs at 35 to become full time travelers. Now in their mid 60s and living a nice life and increased their stash. MMM talked about them in one of his blog posts when they hit their 30 year FIRE mark a few years ago.
And don't forget Paul and Vicky Terhorst authors of "Cashing in on the American Dream: How to Retire at 35". This link is 10 years old but there are a million others out there that are newer. I just like to read Bogelheads comments ;-).
Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.
Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.
I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.
Billy and Akaisha Kaderli are actual real-life people who retired from their jobs in 1991 at the age of 38. They have been doing it for four decades, and still going strong.
https://www.retireearlylifestyle.com/profile.htm
Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.
https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60974
High powered executive and spouse quit their jobs at 35 to become full time travelers. Now in their mid 60s and living a nice life and increased their stash. MMM talked about them in one of his blog posts when they hit their 30 year FIRE mark a few years ago.
The Kaderlis and Terhorsts are the OGs of the RE movement. Also John Greeney who was an engineer at Exxon and retired at 38. They were really the ones who proved the concept for those of us who came later.
This passage from his obituary is something many of us would be proud to have written of us:
He became involved in Voluntary Simplicity in 1991, left corporate life and the telephone company at age 48 to dedicate himself to truly living, and in 1997 co-authored a book on simple living and financial independence with his wife Jacque Blix. He was known by many as someone who could help fix something, install something, or build something. He formed and maintained hundreds of friendships, and connected or reconnected with extended family from all over the country and world. Over the years he took up the harmonica, saxophone, yoga, meditation, and most of all poetry: he kept a weekly poetry blog (thebicyclingpoet.blogspot.com) and had a poem published in the San Diego Poetry Annual Anthology (2020.) All of David’s activities reflected his deep love for life, for his family, his friends, and the world at large. It was his hope to leave the world a better place.
That's inspiring! What a great life goal, "leave the world a better place".
Let’s look at another classic FIRE tale:
The Princess Bride
Princess Buttercup: Commoner who gains status through marriage. Locked in tower, then flees
Prince Humperdinkt: Heir apparent; loses his self respect and everything else.
Vizzini: Government Contractor. Dies (poisoned) while conducting his job
Montoya: Skilled tradesman, presumably in a guild (sword-maker). Lives a rather miserable existence until following in Westley’s footsteps.
Fezzik: Sporadically employed (e.g. brute squad, governmental sub-contractor under Vizzini) & horse thief. Ultimately finds happiness caring for stolen horses.
[Dr.] Miracle Max: King’s physician until fired (not FIREd) by Humperdinkt; forced to go back to work in his sunset years. Lives in near-poverty in a hut despite his advanced education and training.
Count Rugen: High Government Employee, most-trusted advisor to the prince, inventor; killed.
The Albino: Low-level manual labor in government lab. Assaulted, definitely concussed, but fate unknown.
Westley: A self-made, self-employed (farm boy, dread-pirate Roberts #6) man who FIREs and lives happily ever after
The Military (aka “Royal Guard”); Those that flee live. Everyone who does their job gets stabbed. Monty Python had the best advice here (“run away!”).
Moral of the story: Financial security cannot be guaranteed by ‘safe’ governmental jobs, advanced training or even a massive amount of inherited wealth. Most people seems to die in the course of their employment. However, self-employed types can FIRE and live out their days in happiness and love so long as they are ok with a bit of moral ambiguity to get there.
Now this thread is getting good. Who else y'all know about.
Great post. Thanks.Now this thread is getting good. Who else y'all know about.
This is a brief history of the modern FIRE movement based on my own leaky memory, things I heard over the fence, and some help from Google. Corrections, comments, and additions welcome. For entertainment purposes only. No warranty is expressed or implied.
The OGs of FIRE are Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin who FIRE'd sometime in the 1980s, and published the classic "Your Money or Your Life" in 1992. Prior to that time, they were doing workshops promoting what we call FIRE today.
The Terhorsts came out with their book in 1988. Despite being the first, the Terhorst's book never seemed to have the impact as YMOYL did. I confess I've read neither, but many cite YMOYL has being hugely influential in their thinking. However, Dominguez, Robin, and the Terhorsts all made a key planning error, in that they relied 100% on bonds for income. At that time, the 4% rule had not been discovered and the data and tools to evalulate SWR did not even exist for the vast majority of people. Peter Lynch, who probably had as many tools available to him as anyone, advocated a 7% WR.
This changed in 1994 when Bill Bengen discovered the 4% rule and published it an a industry journal. Now, there was good answer to the central question of retirement planning, namely how much do I need? But back then the Internet didn't really exist as we know it today and I don't believe the 4% rule made a lot of penetration into the mainstream.
In about 1998 John Greaney (aka intercst), mentioned above, replicated Bengen's work, using Schiller's longer data set. Greeney did a couple notable things, he founded the Retire Early Home Page (https://retireearlyhomepage.com/) which is still being updated in all of its HTML 1.0 glory (kids, if you want to know what the Internet used to look like, this is it) and he worked through a surprising number of topics related to early retirement, taxes, investment strategies, etc. He also allowed people to download his Excel spreadsheet and data so you could see for yourself and make modifications. And he set up a Retire Early Home Page discussion page at The Motley Fool. Out of that board (I believe) our own @Nords and a poster named Dory36 (Bill Sholar) emerged, along with a few other notable posters.
Dory36 set up a early retirement discussion board: Early Retirement.org (https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/) and he also created FireCalc. So for the first time there was an online SWR calculator where you can enter your own inputs and assumptions. About this time, Johnathan Clements at the Wall Street Journal and noted syndicated personal finance author Scott Burns picked up on the 4% rule and introduced the concept of FIRE to a mainstream audience. I believe CFIREsim also came out of Early Retirement.org as well, but I'm not sure of that.
After that, as far as I know there wasn't a lot of real movement in the FIRE community until MMM arrived. MMM did several notable things. For one, he did the nuts and bolts kind of calculations like intercst and Dory36, but he also introduced a lot of philosophy and lifestyle discussion like YMOYL and the Terhorsts. It really caught on and we all know the rest.
Joe Dominguez died in 1996. I heard but cannot confirm that his bond ladder was starting to fail and he was living a much diminished lifestyle. Vicki Robin lives on an island in Washington State and makes occasional media appearances. Robin switched to index funds years ago. The Terhorsts also switched to index funds and apparently are still having a blast. John Greaney is still around, and says "If I knew then what I know now, I would have retired at 30." Nords appears to be doing well. Bill Sholar decided running a message board was a lot like work and sailed off into the sunset.
I saw the YMOYL team on Oprah back when they were just getting known- they were on the show with Amy Dacyczyn of the Tightwad Gazette. Most chalked them up as hippy-dippy types and dismissed them as weirdos.
People doing this a while will the remember useless retirement calculators that did not allow you to set your post-work annual spend amount at anything less than 80% of your current salary. That could be said another way -- the concept of saving more than 20% of your pay was not fathomable. If I live on 60% of my current pay, why do I need 80% when I am not working? Vanguard's was this way up until pretty recently.
I also remember being frustrated that none of the calculators allowed you to look at the effect of eating your nest egg in the last years of life. The introduction of Monte Carlo simulations and graphic displays of same made a huge difference.
We've come a long way, baby.
This is a brief history of the modern FIRE movement based on my own leaky memory, things I heard over the fence, and some help from Google. Corrections, comments, and additions welcome. For entertainment purposes only. No warranty is expressed or implied.I have a few updates!
However, Dominguez, Robin, and the Terhorsts all made a key planning error, in that they relied 100% on bonds for income.They weren’t wrong, just battle-scarred veterans of our environment of 1970s stagflation and 1980s double-digit inflation. Treasuries and CDs were the only things which didn’t suck, although they weren’t working very well either.
Peter Lynch, who probably had as many tools available to him as anyone, advocated a 7% WR.That was the first edition of “One Up On Wall Street.” Later editions are still for sale on Amazon.
This changed in 1994 when Bill Bengen discovered the 4% rule and published it an a industry journal. Now, there was good answer to the central question of retirement planning, namely how much do I need? But back then the Internet didn't really exist as we know it today and I don't believe the 4% rule made a lot of penetration into the mainstream.It was published in a financial journal whose subscription was only bought by big firms and libraries. Nobody else read it unless you were waiting for your turn with the library’s copy of ValueLine.
He also allowed people to download his Excel spreadsheet and data so you could see for yourself and make modifications. And he set up a Retire Early Home Page discussion page at The Motley Fool.That spreadsheet was what Bill Sholar used to code FIRECalc 1.0. I think he wrote most of it in PHP. The biggest issue was the annual updates from Schiller’s database.
Out of that board (I believe) our own @Nords and a poster named Dory36 (Bill Sholar) emerged, along with a few other notable posters.Bill was retiring from his corporate job and his fellow employees had decorated his office door with the usual cards and gag gifts. One of them had printed out the homepage of Greaney’s site. Bill had bought a boat, a... Dory36... on which he and his spouse spent several years cruising the Intracoastal Waterway. He started E-R.org in 2002 and used to run it from his cell phone hotspot, usually logging on around 5 PM after he and his spouse had moored for the evening. He usually turned off his phone the next morning, so if we had a problem with trolls or spammers it had to wait for evening on the east coast.
Dory36 set up a early retirement discussion board: Early Retirement.org (https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/) and he also created FireCalc. So for the first time there was an online SWR calculator where you can enter your own inputs and assumptions. About this time, Johnathan Clements at the Wall Street Journal and noted syndicated personal finance author Scott Burns picked up on the 4% rule and introduced the concept of FIRE to a mainstream audience.
I believe CFIREsim also came out of Early Retirement.org as well, but I'm not sure of that.Bo_Knows, or @lauren_knows, created cFIREsim right here on this very forum:
After that, as far as I know there wasn't a lot of real movement in the FIRE community until MMM arrived. MMM did several notable things. For one, he did the nuts and bolts kind of calculations like intercst and Dory36, but he also introduced a lot of philosophy and lifestyle discussion like YMOYL and the Terhorsts. It really caught on and we all know the rest.Jacob Lund Fisker was famous in his corner of the Internet for EarlyRetirementExtreme, and (as Pete has said) he handed off to Pete to further promote their sustainable environmentalism. Jacob is still online somewhere (and on Facebook) but last I heard he was working as a quant analyst.
Joe Dominguez died in 1996. I heard but cannot confirm that his bond ladder was starting to fail and he was living a much diminished lifestyle. Vicki Robin lives on an island in Washington State and makes occasional media appearances. Robin switched to index funds years ago.To Joe’s credit, his Treasuries made it for the rest of his life. He died of cancer in a group home while still living off that ladder’s greatly-diminished income.
The Terhorsts also switched to index funds and apparently are still having a blast. John Greaney is still around, and says "If I knew then what I know now, I would have retired at 30."Yes.
Nords appears to be doing well.I am, thank you! My spouse started her Navy Reserve pension this month. Our asset allocation of >90% equities has been very volatile but has grown much faster than inflation. We’ve gone from “more than enough” to “ridiculously way more than we’re ever going to need and are now giving it away faster.”
Bill Sholar decided running a message board was a lot like work and sailed off into the sunset.Shortly after his granddaughter was born, he and his spouse beached themselves. The last I heard he was running a web design firm in Dallas.
The Simple Living Network was hosted by a guy in Trout Lake, Washington who ran a B-to-C operation selling Your Money and YOur Life and other similar books and resources out of his garage.
Somewhere in this unofficial history we should mention how Morningstar sponsored a bunch of forums in the 1990s and 2000s. (Maybe they’re still going.) One of them was Vanguard Diehards, and a notorious troll became a significant problem in that group. Morningstar’s moderators did such a bad job that Taylor, Mel, Alex, and a few others broke off to start Bogleheads.
Thank you so much for the updates!! I was really hoping you'd comment.Somewhere in this unofficial history we should mention how Morningstar sponsored a bunch of forums in the 1990s and 2000s. (Maybe they’re still going.) One of them was Vanguard Diehards, and a notorious troll became a significant problem in that group. Morningstar’s moderators did such a bad job that Taylor, Mel, Alex, and a few others broke off to start Bogleheads.
Yes! That was Rob "Hocus" Bennett who burned Morningstar to the ground. Hocus got it stuck in his skull the 4% rule is wrong, and went on a jihad. Bogleheads is a hugely important and influential forum in the FI movement, and its formation for sure needs to be mentioned as a milestone in our community.
Due to my forced departure from my profession, the industry wants me to start over at zero and climb up the ladder from the bottom. They want me to prove anew my willingness and cower to the industry through the humiliation of enduring the lower rungs again. Getting up at 3 am to undergo a forced drive into an unholy workplace is not very appealing. We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic. FIRE effectively removes much of the motivation to do this part since I don't have to anymore.
In my defense, I have been working several fringe jobs in my industry and have restored my professional credentials. However, at my current age, I do not make for a very appealing candidate.
[Emphasis Added]To build on to nereo's train of thought, I would not want to work with you, nor would I want to be a passenger on any plane you were piloting. Sorry dude, I've been following your threads for a long time and your attitude leaves a lot to be desired, and that's the most Rule #1-friendly way I can phrase it. At some point, recognizing that YOU are the problem and doing something about it, possibly through therapy, or coaching, which have been suggested many times, will lead you
Due to my forced departure from my profession, the industry wants me to start over at zero and climb up the ladder from the bottom. They want me to prove anew my willingness and cower to the industry through the humiliation of enduring the lower rungs again. Getting up at 3 am to undergo a forced drive into an unholy workplace is not very appealing. We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic. FIRE effectively removes much of the motivation to do this part since I don't have to anymore.
In my defense, I have been working several fringe jobs in my industry and have restored my professional credentials. However, at my current age, I do not make for a very appealing candidate.
As this is your attitude and mindset, I do not find it very surprising that you have found it difficult to get the job that you want, or to find fulfillment in your life. We are currently in a job market where qualified employees are the more scarce they have been in decades: BLS estimates there are 0.7 job seekers for every job opening.
To beat a dead horse, you "destruction of professional momentum" is your own doing, not FIREs. If a particular career is something you wish to do, you find a way. Those that are motivated learn that being financially independent is an asset towards progressing their life-goals. You appear to have never been truly motivated in the first place.
We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic. Must we though?
We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic. Must we though?
As an employee, we do often have to endure less palatable portions of our careers and daily life in order to reach the higher ranks of our profession.
Financial Independence
It is my position that if one intends to retire at a young age exclusively on savings then they are very financially dependent and shouldn't consider themselves as being otherwise. Those who intend to retire at 35 on perhaps $1,000,000 are proposing that this sum be sufficient to carry them through the next potential 70 years of life. As such they are very dependent upon certain things.
We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic. Must we though?
As an employee, we do often have to endure less palatable portions of our careers and daily life in order to reach the higher ranks of our profession.
i just put in my 2 weeks as a middle level PM at an engineering firm and someone is offering me a CFO position.... so your experience doesn't align with my reality.
This guy agrees with SkyHigh. Early retirement bites. (https://livingafi.com/2016/04/01/early-retirement-bites/#more-8793/)
This guy agrees with SkyHigh. Early retirement bites. (https://livingafi.com/2016/04/01/early-retirement-bites/#more-8793/)
This guy agrees with SkyHigh. Early retirement bites. (https://livingafi.com/2016/04/01/early-retirement-bites/#more-8793/)
Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.
Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.
I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.
Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.
Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.
I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.
Maybe I'll try and watch this movie. For anyone interested, 400K in 1985 had the buying power that $1,033,000 has today. I expect in another 36 years it'll take $2.5 million to have the buying power that a million dollars has today. *shrug*. My money's invested in companies that can raise prices when they need to.
Lost in America
The movie makes several great points. A primary plot event is when a spouse loses most of their funds in an unexpected manner. A similar disaster can hit anyone’s retirement plan in an unlimited spectrum of ways.
Life is uncertain and the outcome of that uncertainty grows over a long enough period. In the movie "Lost in America", they proposed to retire 36 years ago. Since then, we've had at least three major financial downturns, two or three stock market crashes, and now inflationary threats. If the characters in that movie had made the wrong move at some point during the past 36 years it is easy to see how they could be in terrible shape today.
Retirement disasters are easy to research on the Internet. The world is rife with stories of best-laid plans gone awry. I am nearing the completion of certified financial planner training. One of the biggest issues the instructors keep hammering is to try and motivate clients to remain employed as long as possible.
No one here must take my word for it. A simple Google search will produce many hours of articles regarding the risk of early retirement. It is possible that if the characters in the movie "Lost In America" had done everything exactly right that they could have coasted into their late 70s with something left. I certainly do not want to take that risk. I have seen the consequences of failure.
Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.
The plot is that a 30-something couple has high paying corporate jobs they hate. They run the numbers and conclude they can sell everything, RE and RV across the country full time. The wife promptly losing their nest egg gambling. They are forced to take menial jobs and living in near-poverty. They conclude they want their soul-sucking corporate jobs back.
Moral of the story: Don't lose your life savings gambling.
Wow. That's even a worse argument for his side than I thought. LMAO
This thread reminds me of a Charlie Brown cartoon. The OP is that voice of the teacher blabbering on in the background nonsensically while the main focus is the rest of us having an actually interesting discussion.
Kris,
It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.
Kris,
It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.
To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.
To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.
The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
Kris,
It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.
HOLY FUCK no way man
Why didnt you state that as the thread title? I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was. Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.
To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.
To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.
The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.
To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.
To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.
The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
Thank you. My aim is to share my "post FIRE" experiences.
It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.
Kris,
It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.
HOLY FUCK no way man
Why didnt you state that as the thread title? I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was. Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.
I started this thread long ago. The nature of the thread has since changed.
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.
To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.
To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.
The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
HaHaHaHaHa...Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.
To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.
To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.
The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
Thank you. My aim is to share my "post FIRE" experiences.
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.
To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.
To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.
The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
Many here use the 4% rule as a guideline, not a lifestyle strategy. FIRE people work toward 4% while consistently updating their finances, goals, and understandings and then RE when it feels right. You act like someone reads the 4% rule and then never thoughtfully examines their goals or lifestyle again for the next 20 years. Because you allow the world to happen to you does not mean that others don't live more intentionally.
It is hilarious to me what you are arguing. People here believe:
- Be mindful of your money
- Be thoughtful in your life
- Consume only what makes you happy
- Ignore outside noise in designing your happiness
- Be as charitable as you desire
- Be creative in solving your probelms
You are arguing that approaching life that way will lead to your downfall. The path to FIRE is a collection of guidelines and the collective wisdom of so many people. It is not a set of steadfast rules that must be applied to every life.
The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.
3. Are nuts more or less valuable since America's FunniestHome VideosKick in the nuts stopped airing?
I would appreciate it if OP shared his troubles with finding a job after a short FIRE. I retired knowing if the market went to shit, I could always go back to work. BUT, I also knew after about a year, I would not be able to re-enter my career at the same level and might have trouble finding any job in that industry. (Especially true, now that I speak out against the industry.)
IF the ACA was repealed and nothing replaced it, I would probably have to find a job with benefits or move to a state with a public plan. I feel it is unlikely now, but 12 years is a long time, and that's assuming Medicare stays as is.
Just wanted to add, I had carefully considered this, before FIRE. As does just about everybody who posts here!
Post-FIRE
My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.
I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.
My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.
Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.
Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.
During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.
Post-FIRE
My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.
I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.
My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.
Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.
Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.
During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.
Post-FIRE
My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.
I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.
My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.
Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.
Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.
During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.
Post-FIRE
My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.
I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.
My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.
Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.
Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.
During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.
Well for one thing FIRE != minimalism. Your FIRE can be minimalistic but it does not have to be. FIRE also doesn't have to be some weird cocoon that you envelope yourself in but can be the leaving of a chrysalis.
So you had a tightly constrained system when you FIRE'd and it did not succeed. Surprise surprise. Having a tightly constrained system means you have no flexibility. Rigidity is the enemy of adjusting to external variability.
Also you have an unhealthy perspective of what marriage and children affect an individual's life. When you say you lost control, control of what exactly?
I wouldn't call what you did FIRE. I'd call it an experiment.
In my run up to FIRE, I cut my expenses as far as I could to see how low I could go and still be happy. When I wasn't happy, I knew it was too low. I spent 8 years exploring this - experimenting. Then I considered what I would want to add in retirement. For me this was travel, buy a home vs. rent, and saving for grandkids college. (Here's where you would add marriage and children.) That's how I got to my FIRE number.
I also explored ways to spend time with family and friends that didn't cost much. We play games (board and video) and have potluck brunches and dinners. I meet people at parks to go for walks. We get together and do our hobbies (sewing and knitting for me). I joined in some community activities, like a library book club. I did more of this after I retired, not less, because I had more free time.
You didn't escape FIRE. You found that your properties didn't provide enough income to support the life you wanted. You weren't even at FI. Great job trying it out, though! You know you can survive a job cut. I'd say you were at FU money. Which is a great accomplishment at only 25.
I wouldn't call what you did FIRE. I'd call it an experiment.
In my run up to FIRE, I cut my expenses as far as I could to see how low I could go and still be happy. When I wasn't happy, I knew it was too low. I spent 8 years exploring this - experimenting. Then I considered what I would want to add in retirement. For me this was travel, buy a home vs. rent, and saving for grandkids college. (Here's where you would add marriage and children.) That's how I got to my FIRE number.
I also explored ways to spend time with family and friends that didn't cost much. We play games (board and video) and have potluck brunches and dinners. I meet people at parks to go for walks. We get together and do our hobbies (sewing and knitting for me). I joined in some community activities, like a library book club. I did more of this after I retired, not less, because I had more free time.
You didn't escape FIRE. You found that your properties didn't provide enough income to support the life you wanted. You weren't even at FI. Great job trying it out, though! You know you can survive a job cut. I'd say you were at FU money. Which is a great accomplishment at only 25.
I have to disagree. My early FIRE experience easily met every criterion of being Financially Independent and Retiring Early. I do agree that it was a thin existence, however, plenty of people here are proposing something horribly similar without the same acknowledgment. My point is similar to yours. FIRE needs to also include the possibility of an active life. Many here seem confident that if they can accumulate a small pile of nuts and eke out a minimalistic existence they can live a FIRE life that is unrealistic, unlikely, and unhealthy. It is the point that I am trying to make.
Financial Independence is great. However, the prospect of Retiring Early on a bare minimum is not a good life. It's not a life at all.
[/quote
This is exactly why people are saying you failed to be FIRE - you didn't meet your own criteria for a happy, healthy lifestyle post employment. You did not have sufficient Financial resources, nor did you design your life in such a way to have flexibility or layers of safety.
It is apparent that you made a laundry-list of avoidable failures in your attempt to be FIRE. It's no wonder you came out of the experience with negative feelings. It is a shame you did not find and absorb the lessons and information provided by this forum earlier, as it could have saved you a great deal of trouble and discomfort. then again, you do not seem at all interested in learning from this forum currently, so I'm not sure what difference it would make.
I wouldn't call what you did FIRE. I'd call it an experiment.
In my run up to FIRE, I cut my expenses as far as I could to see how low I could go and still be happy. When I wasn't happy, I knew it was too low. I spent 8 years exploring this - experimenting. Then I considered what I would want to add in retirement. For me this was travel, buy a home vs. rent, and saving for grandkids college. (Here's where you would add marriage and children.) That's how I got to my FIRE number.
I also explored ways to spend time with family and friends that didn't cost much. We play games (board and video) and have potluck brunches and dinners. I meet people at parks to go for walks. We get together and do our hobbies (sewing and knitting for me). I joined in some community activities, like a library book club. I did more of this after I retired, not less, because I had more free time.
You didn't escape FIRE. You found that your properties didn't provide enough income to support the life you wanted. You weren't even at FI. Great job trying it out, though! You know you can survive a job cut. I'd say you were at FU money. Which is a great accomplishment at only 25.
I have to disagree. My early FIRE experience easily met every criterion of being Financially Independent and Retiring Early. I do agree that it was a thin existence, however, plenty of people here are proposing something horribly similar without the same acknowledgment. My point is similar to yours. FIRE needs to also include the possibility of an active life. Many here seem confident that if they can accumulate a small pile of nuts and eke out a minimalistic existence they can live a FIRE life that is unrealistic, unlikely, and unhealthy. It is the point that I am trying to make.
Financial Independence is great. However, the prospect of Retiring Early on a bare minimum is not a good life. It's not a life at all.
Post-FIRE
My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.
I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.
My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.
Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.
Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.
During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.
(to the bolded) No. No it isn't, and doesn't have to be. You did it wrong. That's all there is to it. You made yourself miserable in your "FIRE" and you didn't have to. You could have had friends and dated people and had a rich and varied and fun social life (and I'm only tackling one angle of your miserable "FIRE" here) and you did not because of your own actions. Whether it was due to lack of imagination or lack of effort, I don't know.
But I'm going to reiterate something here that is a common theme on this thread: Learn to use "I statements" for chrissakes. The things you learned or experienced are not objective truths. They are your experience that you created and are often the opposite of what's true for the vast majority of people here on this forum. We are not arguing with you about what your experience has been or your right to share that experience. But we will argue with you about making statements like the bolded above that are framed as objective facts that apply to everyone, when they are not at all so. We also have the same right to point out how your experience may be uncommon or have been the result of your own faulty decisions that could be avoided by XYZ (which does postentially serve as learning tools for future FIREes that are reading these boards).
Social lives can be very rich without spending lots of money because humans crave connection and don't need money to facilitate it. You just have to be the tiniest bit creative. I'm sorry you were unable to do that in your life, but don't blame it on FIRE. The blame lies squarely with the beliefs you held and decisions you made.
Post-FIRE
My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.
I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.
My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.
Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.
Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.
During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.
(to the bolded) No. No it isn't, and doesn't have to be. You did it wrong. That's all there is to it. You made yourself miserable in your "FIRE" and you didn't have to. You could have had friends and dated people and had a rich and varied and fun social life (and I'm only tackling one angle of your miserable "FIRE" here) and you did not because of your own actions. Whether it was due to lack of imagination or lack of effort, I don't know.
But I'm going to reiterate something here that is a common theme on this thread: Learn to use "I statements" for chrissakes. The things you learned or experienced are not objective truths. They are your experience that you created and are often the opposite of what's true for the vast majority of people here on this forum. We are not arguing with you about what your experience has been or your right to share that experience. But we will argue with you about making statements like the bolded above that are framed as objective facts that apply to everyone, when they are not at all so. We also have the same right to point out how your experience may be uncommon or have been the result of your own faulty decisions that could be avoided by XYZ (which does postentially serve as learning tools for future FIREes that are reading these boards).
Social lives can be very rich without spending lots of money because humans crave connection and don't need money to facilitate it. You just have to be the tiniest bit creative. I'm sorry you were unable to do that in your life, but don't blame it on FIRE. The blame lies squarely with the beliefs you held and decisions you made.
I am not blaming anyone else, but am sharing my experiences. I understand that old-timers can meet at McDonald's for their 5 am coffee visit. My point is that retiring early is harmful to younger people. Younger people still like to do things. They go on trips, out to dinner, they engage in expensive hobbies. Some are content with limiting their social contact to exchanging memes on FaceBook, however, most like to do active things.
Dating is difficult in itself without having to restrict it to those who share similar minimalist goals. Good luck.
You can be active, travel, have kids, and all that in FiRE if you plan for it - which you did not. If you didn't have enough money for a fulfilling lifestyle with your family, you failed at FIRE because you didn't plan appropriately. People on this forum track their current level of spending and account for extra retirement costs like travel and health care, etc. You didn't do that.
This isn't an us (FIRE community) problem, it's a you problem.
You can be active, travel, have kids, and all that in FiRE if you plan for it - which you did not. If you didn't have enough money for a fulfilling lifestyle with your family, you failed at FIRE because you didn't plan appropriately. People on this forum track their current level of spending and account for extra retirement costs like travel and health care, etc. You didn't do that.
This isn't an us (FIRE community) problem, it's a you problem.
holy shit you just described my plans throw in a boat and wakesurfing and you're there!
Many here seem confident that if they can accumulate a small pile of nuts and eke out a minimalistic existence they can live a FIRE life that is unrealistic, unlikely, and unhealthy.
leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.. Yeah that sounds like a winning plan.
Kris,
It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.
HOLY FUCK no way man
Why didnt you state that as the thread title? I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was. Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.
Kris,
It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.
HOLY FUCK no way man
Why didnt you state that as the thread title? I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was. Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.
To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.
To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.
The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
Kris,
It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.
HOLY FUCK no way man
Why didnt you state that as the thread title? I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was. Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.
The original intent of my thread was to learn from others how to break into the network of corporate employment and escape FIRE. It has since changed into a discussion about the downsides of FIRE life.
Kris,
It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.
HOLY FUCK no way man
Why didnt you state that as the thread title? I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was. Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.
The original intent of my thread was to learn from others how to break into the network of corporate employment and escape FIRE. It has since changed into a discussion about the downsides of FIRE life.
It's sad you think this is a discussion. To be a discussion all parties have to read and evolve their statements based on other input. This is you posting the same boring fire bashing bullshit over and over and failing to discuss anything with anyone. Now other people here are having discussions. You aren't.
lol, I see you've moved on to flat out lies
Many here seem to be single hermits who are more than happy to burrow deep into their one-bedroom apartments on a meager stipend and a cat. Others here do not seem to have any ambitions beyond merely existing.
lol, I see you've moved on to flat out lies
I am curious, what is the "lie" you are referring to? If you are going to levy a statement like that then you should offer an explanation.
Two years on this thread. Don't feed it.
Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?This is cutting it kind of close for me, but no cat.
Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?This is cutting it kind of close for me, but no cat.
It is a point of personal failure for me, can't get back to the 3 hour commutes, grinding meetings, and micro managing bosses.Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?This is cutting it kind of close for me, but no cat.
Have you tried clawing your way into the corporate world? I'd love to have a one-bedroom apartment, actually, but those darn kids of mine.
We forgive you.It is a point of personal failure for me, can't get back to the 3 hour commutes, grinding meetings, and micro managing bosses.Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?This is cutting it kind of close for me, but no cat.
Have you tried clawing your way into the corporate world? I'd love to have a one-bedroom apartment, actually, but those darn kids of mine.
I'm surprised he even gave us this much credit because I'd think this is would be an upgrade from van life. FatFIRE? I just don't know how even even gets this stuff from ANY of the forum threads. It's like, IDK, he hasn't read them.lol, I see you've moved on to flat out lies
I am curious, what is the "lie" you are referring to? If you are going to levy a statement like that then you should offer an explanation.
Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?
I'm surprised he even gave us this much credit because I'd think this is would be an upgrade from van life. FatFIRE? I just don't know how even even gets this stuff from ANY of the forum threads. It's like, IDK, he hasn't read them.lol, I see you've moved on to flat out lies
I am curious, what is the "lie" you are referring to? If you are going to levy a statement like that then you should offer an explanation.
Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?
I used to read the Post FIRE threads on breaks at work as inspiration. I would read journals like John Snow and just lose myself in daydreams of how wonderful it must be to not have to go into the office and deal with the stress and bullshit.
Thankfully I also had rewarding positions and also did cool things. I’m grateful for that opportunity. But I am also immensely grateful for this amazing gift I have that is FIRE. Sure, raising little kids can be tough and frustrating sometimes but overall life is awesome!
Today I walked my kid to school, then went on a little run that looped back to home, listening to the birds and admiring the foggy sunrise. I skipped the strength exercises this morning because I was feeling tired and instead showered and ate second breakfast. I then biked to the store to pick up a few things and caught up with a friend on video chat over her lunch break from work. A quick parent-teacher conference and then I was able to accommodate a last minute contractor stopping by to give us a quote on a kitchen remodel. I then tried out a new instant pot recipe for dinner while talking Roth conversions and capital gains taxes with my husband (sexy!). :) We had our usual dinner together as a family and put the kids to bed.
I’m going to send out an email and then read a book with a back massager on my shoulders.
Not a shabby life at all.
I used to read the Post FIRE threads on breaks at work as inspiration. I would read journals like John Snow and just lose myself in daydreams of how wonderful it must be to not have to go into the office and deal with the stress and bullshit.Remember how worried you were about All The Things before you pulled the plug? You must be doing something wrong now. /s
Thankfully I also had rewarding positions and also did cool things. I’m grateful for that opportunity. But I am also immensely grateful for this amazing gift I have that is FIRE. Sure, raising little kids can be tough and frustrating sometimes but overall life is awesome!
Today I walked my kid to school, then went on a little run that looped back to home, listening to the birds and admiring the foggy sunrise. I skipped the strength exercises this morning because I was feeling tired and instead showered and ate second breakfast. I then biked to the store to pick up a few things and caught up with a friend on video chat over her lunch break from work. A quick parent-teacher conference and then I was able to accommodate a last minute contractor stopping by to give us a quote on a kitchen remodel. I then tried out a new instant pot recipe for dinner while talking Roth conversions and capital gains taxes with my husband (sexy!). :) We had our usual dinner together as a family and put the kids to bed.
I’m going to send out an email and then read a book with a back massager on my shoulders.
Not a shabby life at all.
Another great Retirement movie recommendation
(2015) The Intern - Robert De Nero and Anne Hathaway.
It is a story about an accomplished age-appropriate retiree who goes back to work in an entry-level position. In my opinion, it is a great movie about the benefits of maintaining a purpose and lifelong contribution.
The Financial Samurai had an article on November the 20th of 2021 titled "The Negatives of Early Retirement Life Nobody Likes to Talk About". It truly is a review of everything that I have written about here. Sams does a much better job than me. Read the comments. It is like I wrote them myself. (I didn't) My point is that my experiences and opinions are not unique.
Another great one from the FS blog is, "The Surprising Negatives of Living the FIRE Lifestyle". There are many more out there. All it takes is a simple google search.
The Financial Samurai had an article on November the 20th of 2021 titled "The Negatives of Early Retirement Life Nobody Likes to Talk About". It truly is a review of everything that I have written about here. Sams does a much better job than me. Read the comments. It is like I wrote them myself. (I didn't) My point is that my experiences and opinions are not unique.Hmmm, maybe that's where you should be posting...
Another great one from the FS blog is, "The Surprising Negatives of Living the FIRE Lifestyle". There are many more out there. All it takes is a simple google search.
Yeah, if you think Financial Samurai is going to receive a good reception around here you clearly mis-judged this forum.The Financial Samurai had an article on November the 20th of 2021 titled "The Negatives of Early Retirement Life Nobody Likes to Talk About". It truly is a review of everything that I have written about here. Sams does a much better job than me. Read the comments. It is like I wrote them myself. (I didn't) My point is that my experiences and opinions are not unique.
Another great one from the FS blog is, "The Surprising Negatives of Living the FIRE Lifestyle". There are many more out there. All it takes is a simple google search.
thats like saying voldemort around here that guy is just baiting for clickbait now. But maybe you can go find companionship there?
You are literally the only person here who has argued that retirement = nothingness. We have spent pages now trying to show you that isn’t the case.
MMM and FS
From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.
Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.
I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.
Skyhigh,
I think I replied to one of your posts a couple of years ago and said what I have to say, but I'm going to give it one more shot.
Some people on this forum think you are a troll. I kind of wish you were, because that would be better than your reality. I think you are a deeply unhappy person who has never been able to get over being laid off from your chosen career path before achieving your goals.
Most people who achieve difficult goals have failures, but they usually dust themselves off, think hard about how much of the failure was their own fault, and start over again. Or try something new. In your messages, I see common themes of blame of industry, company, and economy, ageism, etc. but never any hint that you might bear even a tiny amount of responsibility for losing your position and your inability to gain a new one. And an absolute refusal to start over again at a lower level to get back on the ladder.
I also think you have some serious self-esteem issues. Your continued focus on a career blip decades ago and illusions about the "prestige" of a corporate career rather than pride in building a successful business and raising a happy family is just one example.
Two things you said in previous posts really leapt out at me:
"I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either."
"My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them."
It is sad that you choose to characterize yourself with "I mow lawns" rather than "I'm a serial entrepreneur/real estate investor/business owner" and even more sad that you are embarrassed to be among your peers. I also think you should listen to your wife and start pursuing happiness, either by making the sacrifices to follow your dream career (which involves risking failure), rethinking your career/life goals, and/or getting some counseling.
I doubt you will take my advice above. If that's the case, I have one other suggestion: I presume your various businesses are structured in some formal way, as an LLC, corporation, or the like. Give your company a fancy sounding name like "The Skyhigh Group" or "Skyhigh Capital". Then, name yourself President or appoint your wife to the board and name yourself CEO. Have some business cards made with your new title (spend the extra money for engraved cards if you want to impress people who know the difference). Buy some expensive business suits (spend the extra money for high-end shoes if you want to impress people who know the difference). Make some donations to the right local charities (As little as $5,000 or $10,000 donation to the local symphony/art museum/children's museum/children's hospital will get your or your company's name on programs, some invitations to events, and give you something to brag about). Maybe buy a car that quietly says "money" (Toyota Landcruiser and a Mercedes station wagon are both solid choices). Then go to parties and quietly look down your nose at the other guests. You'll discover that most people really don't care what you do, but those who are shallow (dare I say bourgeois?) enough to be impressed by things like titles will be impressed. If your businesses are doing as well as you say, you might want to consider hiring a hard charging young man or woman to do the lawn mowing and painting and learning to manage your businesses while you focus on expansion and making more money. Then you'd actually be doing the President/CEO work indicated by your business card. And I'll let you in on a secret: in America, at the end of the day, most people are more impressed by money than titles.
BTW, you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door." Some of the ideas in the book might help you recognize your own successes, and millionaires who were driven to succeed by childhood poverty and personal insecurity is one of the themes.
Life is too short to be unhappy, and I think most people on this forum are a lot more interested in hearing from people who can be good examples rather than horrible warnings. I think you've successfully made your point here; nobody wants to make the mistakes you've made. It is just that nobody here thinks your real mistakes were about choosing FIRE.
Skyhigh,
I think I replied to one of your posts a couple of years ago and said what I have to say, but I'm going to give it one more shot.
Some people on this forum think you are a troll. I kind of wish you were, because that would be better than your reality. I think you are a deeply unhappy person who has never been able to get over being laid off from your chosen career path before achieving your goals.
Most people who achieve difficult goals have failures, but they usually dust themselves off, think hard about how much of the failure was their own fault, and start over again. Or try something new. In your messages, I see common themes of blame of industry, company, and economy, ageism, etc. but never any hint that you might bear even a tiny amount of responsibility for losing your position and your inability to gain a new one. And an absolute refusal to start over again at a lower level to get back on the ladder.
I also think you have some serious self-esteem issues. Your continued focus on a career blip decades ago and illusions about the "prestige" of a corporate career rather than pride in building a successful business and raising a happy family is just one example.
Two things you said in previous posts really leapt out at me:
"I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either."
"My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them."
It is sad that you choose to characterize yourself with "I mow lawns" rather than "I'm a serial entrepreneur/real estate investor/business owner" and even more sad that you are embarrassed to be among your peers. I also think you should listen to your wife and start pursuing happiness, either by making the sacrifices to follow your dream career (which involves risking failure), rethinking your career/life goals, and/or getting some counseling.
I doubt you will take my advice above. If that's the case, I have one other suggestion: I presume your various businesses are structured in some formal way, as an LLC, corporation, or the like. Give your company a fancy sounding name like "The Skyhigh Group" or "Skyhigh Capital". Then, name yourself President or appoint your wife to the board and name yourself CEO. Have some business cards made with your new title (spend the extra money for engraved cards if you want to impress people who know the difference). Buy some expensive business suits (spend the extra money for high-end shoes if you want to impress people who know the difference). Make some donations to the right local charities (As little as $5,000 or $10,000 donation to the local symphony/art museum/children's museum/children's hospital will get your or your company's name on programs, some invitations to events, and give you something to brag about). Maybe buy a car that quietly says "money" (Toyota Landcruiser and a Mercedes station wagon are both solid choices). Then go to parties and quietly look down your nose at the other guests. You'll discover that most people really don't care what you do, but those who are shallow (dare I say bourgeois?) enough to be impressed by things like titles will be impressed. If your businesses are doing as well as you say, you might want to consider hiring a hard charging young man or woman to do the lawn mowing and painting and learning to manage your businesses while you focus on expansion and making more money. Then you'd actually be doing the President/CEO work indicated by your business card. And I'll let you in on a secret: in America, at the end of the day, most people are more impressed by money than titles.
BTW, you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door." Some of the ideas in the book might help you recognize your own successes, and millionaires who were driven to succeed by childhood poverty and personal insecurity is one of the themes.
Life is too short to be unhappy, and I think most people on this forum are a lot more interested in hearing from people who can be good examples rather than horrible warnings. I think you've successfully made your point here; nobody wants to make the mistakes you've made. It is just that nobody here thinks your real mistakes were about choosing FIRE.
Thank you,
I value every post that is not intended as a low blow. The difference I have with most here is that I enjoyed my career. It was my childhood ambition and goal. Being laid off and forced to FIRE is a defeat for me. I am not proud of the fact that I figured out how to be able to do nothing. FIRE is boring. The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun. It is a fallback position that I expected to recover from. Now it seems that it is for keeps and it makes me sad.
All that being said, I am also an expert at achieving FIRE. My business helps people to accomplish it through real estate investing. I have been living it since 2002 longer than MMM and FS. This is a "post-fire" thread. My experiences have value here. My guess is that most of my detractors here are still trying to achieve FIRE and haven't experienced the issues that I write about.
The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun.
Another great Retirement movie recommendation
(2015) The Intern - Robert De Nero and Anne Hathaway.
It is a story about an accomplished age-appropriate retiree who goes back to work in an entry-level position. In my opinion, it is a great movie about the benefits of maintaining a purpose and lifelong contribution.
QuoteThe work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun.
Can anyone tell me the best kind of work to start after I retire so that I can be retired while working for money?
You are literally the only person here who has argued that retirement = nothingness. We have spent pages now trying to show you that isn’t the case.
MMM and FS
From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.
Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.
I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.
Thank you,
I value every post that is not intended as a low blow. The difference I have with most here is that I enjoyed my career. It was my childhood ambition and goal. Being laid off and forced to FIRE is a defeat for me. I am not proud of the fact that I figured out how to be able to do nothing. FIRE is boring. The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun. It is a fallback position that I expected to recover from. Now it seems that it is for keeps and it makes me sad.
All that being said, I am also an expert at achieving FIRE. My business helps people to accomplish it through real estate investing. I have been living it since 2002 longer than MMM and FS. This is a "post-fire" thread. My experiences have value here. My guess is that most of my detractors here are still trying to achieve FIRE and haven't experienced the issues that I write about.
You are literally the only person here who has argued that retirement = nothingness. We have spent pages now trying to show you that isn’t the case.
MMM and FS
From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.
Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.
I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE
The happiest people that I have encountered in the working world are those who don't have to work but still can.
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE
If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you on this thread are nowhere near that description.
Me? Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.
So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.
But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting my pennies. I do need to push myself a bit to get out and be social in real life. And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).
I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor. But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work. Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling. By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE. And it has been great. I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks! Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE
If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you on this thread are nowhere near that description.
Me? Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.
So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.
But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting my pennies. I do need to push myself a bit to get out and be social in real life. And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).
I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor. But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work. Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling. By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE. And it has been great. I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks! Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.
Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE
If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you on this thread are nowhere near that description.
Me? Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.
So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.
But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting my pennies. I do need to push myself a bit to get out and be social in real life. And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).
I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor. But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work. Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling. By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE. And it has been great. I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks! Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.
Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.
great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.
for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow.
great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE
If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you on this thread are nowhere near that description.
Me? Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.
So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.
But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting my pennies. I do need to push myself a bit to get out and be social in real life. And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).
I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor. But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work. Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling. By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE. And it has been great. I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks! Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.
Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.
great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.
for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow.
great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.
I am FIRE.
Highly Educated. My assumption is that most here are; Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introverted, Cubicle Jockeys, Not achieved FIRE, and are Highly Educated.
I hold a bachelor's degree however tend heavily toward the working-class side of my personality. College was hard for me. I am more of a hands-on build-it myself kind of person and not cerebral. I have never gotten along well with number squirrels. I like them and admire their abilities but can not relate (obviously). It is probably why I enjoy all of you so much.
My aim is not to seek an echo chamber somewhere else, but an exchange with those who are not from my background. Many here are technology elites and I am a laborer. We see the world differently.
That being said, FIRE is a well-established tradition in the working class. We cant get fancy computer programming jobs that provide a surplus of income to save. Our approach to FIRE is to build something to get us there. We are plumbers, electritians, carpenters, general contractors, farmers, mechanics, long-haul truckers, and so on. The pattern is to open your own shop, hire others, and then do what you want.
It is not the same as "discovering" frugality and squirreling away surplus income and then obsessing over it. I am trying to learn though. And, you all have a lot to learn from me.
FI perhaps, but not RE.Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE
If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you on this thread are nowhere near that description.
Me? Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.
So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.
But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting my pennies. I do need to push myself a bit to get out and be social in real life. And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).
I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor. But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work. Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling. By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE. And it has been great. I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks! Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.
Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.
great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.
for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow.
great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.
I am FIRE.
you dont have time to read and respond to post b/c you have a business to run and a job to work
YOU ARE NOT FIRE
And, you all have a lot to learn from me.
This thread reminds me of frustrating conversations with my toddler where I try to reason with someone who literally hasn’t developed the mental capacity for logical thought yet.
How many times do I have to repeat myself that we aren’t eating cookies for breakfast?
Relevant -
http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115 (http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115)
If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.
Relevant -
http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115 (http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115)
Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.
FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.Quote from: retired_sydIf you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE
OMG, I love love love RetiredSyd! She used to have a fantastic blog, but her postings have dwindled to nothing. Still good content there.Relevant -
http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115 (http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115)
Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.
FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.Quote from: retired_sydIf you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.
FI perhaps, but not RE.Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE
If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you on this thread are nowhere near that description.
Me? Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.
So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.
But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting my pennies. I do need to push myself a bit to get out and be social in real life. And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).
I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor. But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work. Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling. By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE. And it has been great. I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks! Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.
Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.
great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.
for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow.
great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.
I am FIRE.
you dont have time to read and respond to post b/c you have a business to run and a job to work
YOU ARE NOT FIRE
***
This throws reminds me of something I’ve seen floating around in groups of people with young kids. It is a tweet that says something like:
“If you’re wondering what things are like for parents right now, someone in my online moms group invited everyone to a Facebook event that is just going to an empty field and screaming and a LOT of people RSVPed yes.”
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220118/a9a935495207c6f6670b1763ffe7029f.jpg)
This thread reminds me of frustrating conversations with my toddler where I try to reason with someone who literally hasn’t developed the mental capacity for logical thought yet.
How many times do I have to repeat myself that we aren’t eating cookies for breakfast?
How many times have we clarified that FIRE isn’t a career or a means to support one’s family, that working to put a roof over your head isn’t FIRE, that FIRE doesn’t mean sitting around at home doing nothing and contributing nothing?
Cookies still aren’t on the menu no matter how many times you ask. Sorry, kid.
Relevant -
http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115 (http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115)
Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.
FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.Quote from: retired_sydIf you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.
Severity of FIRE
I have a college friend who achieved fire at 45 years of age. Throughout his adult life he had been married twice and experienced the normal ups and downs. When I last spoke with him he was engaged to a beautiful intelligent accomplished person. His construction business was taking off incredibly. He had built himself a very nice house in an upper middle-class neighborhood. He had finally found success and was on his way.
I lost touch with him for a time. I tried reaching out via his cell phone to learn that it was disconnected. I sent a letter to his home, and it was returned. He had disappeared from the Internet. I couldn't find his business license, address, or any other evidence that he still existed. Eventually, I sent a letter to his sister and she sent a reply.
It turns out that my dear friend had done something dramatic soon after I last spoke with him. For reasons only known to him, he broke off his engagement, closed his booming business, and systematically sold off all of his assets. He choose to FIRE in a halfway house located in one of the desert states far from his home. Every month $500 is auto drafted from his account and sent to the organization that maintains a bunk bed, food, and some medical oversight.
He spends his days wandering the streets intoxicated. At night he returns to the halfway house. Why he chose this life I will probably never know. Clearly his plan was/is to consume his days in this manner until he has expired. He chose an alcoholic version of FIRE instead of his blooming full and successful life.
Any one of us could achieve FIRE right now. The question is what is your FIRE life going to look like? How much risk are you willing to accept? How long will it last? What is the level of severity are you willing to accept or be exposed to? I'm certain that my friend does not plan to live very long in retirement. He chose a reduced duration of his retirement through his lifestyle choices. The tragedy of my lost friend is something I will probably never understand.
People achieve FIRE all the time. It is mostly about the sacrifices.
Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.
Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.
Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.
Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.
Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.
Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house. Not fire
Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house. Not fire
I disagree, my friend made the same choice as many of you to intentionally abandon a productive life for a self-centered meager existence. He achieved FIRE and is living it in his way.
Yeah I'd say this forum has an opposite problem to what you are saying. Many people here are profligate spenders and probably don't question their spending within the context of weighing what makes them happy versus what is good for the world/community/long term survival of humans/long term survival of the earth.
I'd argue many more people stop very quickly at the what makes me happy and set their sights on that rather than these restrictive statements you seem to perceive. Do you have solid examples of what you are talking about?
I know that you guys get frustrated with me due to my lack of responses. I only have perhaps 20 minutes in the morning before I have other things to focus on. My apologies.If you were really FIRE, you could spend as much time as you want on the internet, or anywhere you please.
Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.
Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.
this thread has just become a source of bewildered amusement and perhaps a little conversation amongst ourselves
Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
The biggest pushback that people have with me is my desire to pursue my career objective after FIRE.
From Investopia:
“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”
Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.
Tiny House MovementThere are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.
The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.
I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.
As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
Another HORRIBLE day in my FIRED life:I walked to the library today also, with my husband. :) You’ve got me thinking now that we should be putting seeds in the ground. I mentioned it to my husband and he was surprised because he thought it was early. Got to check the planting calendar.
Today is the first in a good stretch of sunny days, which those of us in Seattle know to seize on while they last this time of year. I already got my first tray of late winter/early spring seeds sown yesterday during a break in the rain, so since I had a couple of books on hold at the library I decided to walk there and enjoy the sun. It is a 3 mile walk that takes about an hour even if I add in an extra off-trail/hilly bit, which I did today to push myself a bit. Listened to a favorite old album (Indigo Girls) on the way and Spotify fed me some nice stuff by a few artists I hadn't heard of after -- love finding new music!
Dropped off the book I needed to return and picked up my two holds, then went upstairs to the cafe/public seating area to grab a light lunch while reading one of the books. I did bring a Starbucks gift card along, but decided to spend my lunch money at the cafe because they are a local business that I want to support/keep going during these challenging times. My food choice wasn't expensive so it was easy to decide to leave a 25% tip. I was happy to snag one of the few small tables next to the windows and got a bit of extra sun while I enjoyed my lunch -- a beef and onion hand pie that had the most amazing rich crust!
Got to the bus stop and realized when pulling my bus pass out that my library card wasn't in my wallet. Walked back to the library but nobody had turned it in. No big, signed up for a new one. Had a leisurely bus ride home, no need to stress about delayed connections because my time is my own.
It's my turn to make dinner tonight so I'm going to try that feta/tomato pasta bake thing that was apparently all the rage on tik tok a few weeks back. I have feta we should use up and just got a bunch of semi-dehydrated tomatoes from the garden out of the freezer, along with some bread for garlic bread. DS (tech worker who at age 20 already has a pretty good grasp of the importance of work/life balance) just came over to go on a bike ride with his Dad (also FIREd) -- they usually bike together 2-3x/week when the weather permits. He'll stay for dinner after. It's nice when your teen/young adult kids actually enjoy hanging out for dinner with the family!
Oh, I guess I forgot to moan and groan about how miserable and miserly our FIREd lifestyle is. Too busy enjoying it, I guess.
I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.
I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?
To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.
QuoteI'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.
Another New Englander here. In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter: 1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke amazon link to book: https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3
2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.
QuoteI'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.
Another New Englander here. In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter: 1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke amazon link to book: https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3
2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.
skyhigh = Colin Robinson?
The egg didn't lay the chicken.Speaking of eggs and chickens, SH glosses over the fact that he has a huge family and the costs involved in the choices he's made. Nothing wrong with having a large family*, but own it, man. Kids cost a metric fuckton of money. SH made choices that require a shitload more money than average.
Even freeze-tolerant perennials tend to die in containers at these temps.
After reading this thread, I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.Unfortunately @Skyhigh won't answer any of those questions. Others have asked him and .... crickets. I'm curious myself but realize he won't respond. Frustrating. At least some good threads and discussions have been spawned from this thread about how great retiring early can be.
You keep referring to living off a small amount. How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?
Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so, if you inherited, say, 5 million dollars, would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?
You talk about concepts like fulfillment. If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers, building houses for the homeless, etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.
I'm not sure if you'll answer these, but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
After reading this thread, I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.Unfortunately @Skyhigh won't answer any of those questions. Others have asked him and .... crickets. I'm curious myself but realize he won't respond. Frustrating. At least some good threads and discussions have been spawned from this thread about how great retiring early can be.
You keep referring to living off a small amount. How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?
Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so, if you inherited, say, 5 million dollars, would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?
You talk about concepts like fulfillment. If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers, building houses for the homeless, etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.
I'm not sure if you'll answer these, but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
I am sorry for my lack of a timely response. I do have a life outside of this forum and professional obligations. However, I will do my best.
The egg didn't lay the chicken.Speaking of eggs and chickens, SH glosses over the fact that he has a huge family and the costs involved in the choices he's made. Nothing wrong with having a large family*, but own it, man. Kids cost a metric fuckton of money. SH made choices that require a shitload more money than average.
*Leaving aside some obvious environmental factors for the sake of making this point.
After reading this thread, I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.
You keep referring to living off a small amount. How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?
Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so, if you inherited, say, 5 million dollars, would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?
You talk about concepts like fulfillment. If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers, building houses for the homeless, etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.
I'm not sure if you'll answer these, but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
I think I had a brain wave here:From Investopia:
“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”
I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.
Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.Tiny House MovementThere are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.
The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.
As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.
I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?
To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.
I believe that it takes an active source of income in order to FIRE
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.
The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.
Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
Government-sponsored FIRE
I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life. At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.
Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.
Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)
Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.
I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile.
I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.The fact that he couldn't find any value or fulfillment in volunteer opportunities is the most puzzling. So what if the duty is putting away folding chairs or filling juice cups? If it's in support of an organization or cause that one feels passionate about, it matters. Apparently he is too good for these menial tasks. In contrast, I volunteer for the local animal shelter. Some volunteers are retired, some fit it in before or after work. What this means is that I know lots of people who literally find joy and fulfillment in PICKING UP POOP. We also do fun stuff like washing and folding laundry and cleaning the cat kennels.
I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.
Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
I’m sorry that your life has turned out so disappointing to you. Personally I think you have accomplished a lot and should be proud of yourself and what you have done. It is a waste to sit around chewing endlessly at “what ifs” instead of living a great life now. It’s not like griping is making your life more fulfilling. You’ve tried hard to rain on our parade but the likes of us in this forum are a stubborn lot and we will continue to enjoy the FIRE life. If things go south financially then we will activate some of our several contingency plans (rent out unused space, cut back spending, take on a bit of part time work, etc.).I think I had a brain wave here:From Investopia:
“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”
I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.
Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.Tiny House MovementThere are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.
The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.
As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.
I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?
To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.
I understand that you don't want your idealistic image of FIRE altered. I have spent my adult life experiencing different aspects of FIRE and believe that it is important to share. If you notice, I do not comment on threads other than this one and real estate investing. My purpose is so that you can easily avoid my concepts if you so choose.
I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.
I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.
Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
I actually sortakinda agree with him, but not in the way he thinks. All I see is a guy who has bought into society’s narrative that a man’s entire identity is nothing but his ability to make money and be a capitalist cog.
Off Topic
Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.
It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.
I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.
I’m sorry that your life has turned out so disappointing to you. Personally I think you have accomplished a lot and should be proud of yourself and what you have done. It is a waste to sit around chewing endlessly at “what ifs” instead of living a great life now. It’s not like griping is making your life more fulfilling. You’ve tried hard to rain on our parade but the likes of us in this forum are a stubborn lot and we will continue to enjoy the FIRE life. If things go south financially then we will activate some of our several contingency plans (rent out unused space, cut back spending, take on a bit of part time work, etc.).I think I had a brain wave here:From Investopia:
“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”
I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.
Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.Tiny House MovementThere are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.
The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.
As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.
I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?
To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.
I understand that you don't want your idealistic image of FIRE altered. I have spent my adult life experiencing different aspects of FIRE and believe that it is important to share. If you notice, I do not comment on threads other than this one and real estate investing. My purpose is so that you can easily avoid my concepts if you so choose.
I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.
I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.
Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
Breathe. It will be okay.
Off Topic
Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.
It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.
I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.
Seems like this is OT enough to warrant a completely different thread.
Off Topic
Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.
It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.
I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.
Seems like this is OT enough to warrant a completely different thread.
Some here do not like me. I try to contain my posts to this thread as a courtesy to those who wish to avoid my comments.
I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach.
So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.
I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach.
I know dozens or even hundreds of successful entrepreneurs. Not a single one of them is obsessed with their failures (just the opposite in fact). I think you're hanging out with the wrong crowd.So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.
I agree with the others that this should be a different thread, but I don't want you to feel ignored (even though you largely ignore everyone else on this thread), so here's my take:
I'm not a landlord, but I'd say you shouldn't feel bad as long as you are just bringing rates up to market rates and you're doing so in a legal manner (I understand some jurisdictions have limits to how much you can raise rents per year, but I don't know where you live). If they are good tenants, I would be tempted to spread those large increases across a few years, but I think most professionals would say that's me being overly soft.
I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.
I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.
I'd suggest you stop trying to classify everyone in the world, as well as put the broad variety of forum participants into a small box!
I'm a college dropout (hardly an "intellectual elite") that grew up on a farm, where I shoveled shit, pulled weeds, chopped firewood, repaired fences, made toys out of sticks and lumber... It's not "novel", really, and yet I enjoy it in adult life.
I have basically zero "status" in the corporate world, other than "employee number 637". I do not seek such status, as it is merely looking for recognition from others.
I think you have to look within, find things that you yourself truly value, and push yourself to accomplish those things, ignoring what other people think of you (beyond moral choices/things that could affect those around you.)
After reading your comments I agree with many of your assessments. I am searching for additional meaning in life.A noble goal.
My goal in attending college was so that I could become a class migrant and escape the working class. My aim was to become a professional like many of you here. It does bother me that I fell short. It feels a lot like life ducted me back into the working class despite all my efforts.
My purpose for attempting to become a professional elite was so that I could provide a better life for my family and myself. As a child, I was able to observe how professional elites lived and determined it was a better way. I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.
The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite.
Movie Recommendation: Hillbilly Elegy 2020. A working-class/poor kid tries to break into the elite professional class.
The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite.
Movie Recommendation: Hillbilly Elegy 2020. A working-class/poor kid tries to break into the elite professional class.
I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach.
Off Topic
Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.
It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.
I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.
Regarding rent increases: You say you didn't create the situation. But compassion is a learned trait. Do you believe that the tenant you've cited has had an 80% salary increase since their last rent increase? Have the LL's costs actually gone up 80%? Raising someone's rent 80% in one go is a Total Dick Move.
The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite.
I told you previously. It is simple: Develop in-demand job skills. That's how I did it. I went to a state school and started working in a field only at best tangentially related to my field of study. From there I went to what (I guess) you would call a corporate job where most people would wear a suit and tie to work. How did I get hired? I had skills they wanted and few other people had. No social elites involved.
My wife is a better example. It took her ten years and seven colleges (mostly community college) to get a four year degree. She now has a fancy position at a major global company that you've heard of and probably interact with everyday. No social elites involved.
By the way, simple doesn't necessarily mean easy.QuoteMovie Recommendation: Hillbilly Elegy 2020. A working-class/poor kid tries to break into the elite professional class.
Which he did. Quite successfully too.
What you are saying is that people who are extrinsically motivated will have a harder time in FIRE. Probably true. But have you considered intrinsically motivated people? Or people who go from extrinsic to intrinsic?Government-sponsored FIRE
I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life. At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.
Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.
Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)
Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.
I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile.
By your own definition you are saying she's not FIRE.
What you are saying is that people who are extrinsically motivated will have a harder time in FIRE. Probably true. But have you considered intrinsically motivated people? Or people who go from extrinsic to intrinsic?Government-sponsored FIRE
I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life. At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.
Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.
Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)
Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.
I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile.
By your own definition you are saying she's not FIRE.
It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is. I have been trying to come up with a description that captures the intent of many of you. To me, FIRE means being Financially Independent (Not a wage slave) and Retiring Early (Prior to 60-67). The lady in the story very much meets the FIRE criteria, so do hobos.
It seems that many here hold FIRE in some sort of reverence that includes hard-to-define elements such as "intent". They would not consider a homeless person to have accomplished FIRE even though they do what they want and are retired. Some here consider $25,000/year as a reasonable annual sum to be able to cease their work function when to me it is only a sliver above being homeless.
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.
It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is. I have been trying to come up with a description that captures the intent of many of you. To me, FIRE means being Financially Independent (Not a wage slave) and Retiring Early (Prior to 60-67). The lady in the story very much meets the FIRE criteria, so do hobos.
It seems that many here hold FIRE in some sort of reverence that includes hard-to-define elements such as "intent". They would not consider a homeless person to have accomplished FIRE even though they do what they want and are retired. Some here consider $25,000/year as a reasonable annual sum to be able to cease their work function when to me it is only a sliver above being homeless.
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.
I do not believe a single other poster on this forum would consider a homeless person to be FIREd, nor the destitute. On this forum and in most other cases there is a very important and real distinction between being FIRE and being unemployed. There is an important difference between meeting the bare minimum to remain alive and having sufficient resources to be content (I.e. having “enough”)
Someone's independence is the fact that they do not rely on other people.
I did go to college and accomplished all the credentials. My career progress was slow but moderately effective. I have an impressive resume with the exception that I am not from the social group that plays golf with the chief pilot. My industry has been very competitive. There has been a surplus of similarly trained, educated, and experienced people in the job market. Social capital is what made the difference toward obtaining a position that makes the sacrifices worthwhile. Out of my graduating class, 5% made it to our career objective.
I was unlucky in my career, but lucky in love and real estate.
It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.
If you want a corporate gig, I recommend a professional field where companies have trouble finding qualified candidates. That changes the calculation a lot.
If you want a corporate gig, I recommend a professional field where companies have trouble finding qualified candidates. That changes the calculation a lot.
This. I just responded to four separate recruiters who reached out to me this week (a record). I'll tell them all I am only open to considering half-time work and they will all creep back into the ether. But there is no doubt that if I were willing to work 40+ hours/week I'd have no problem getting my foot in the door at Big Tech or Big Aerospace.
Hah, yes! I had one recruiter for BigTech and a recruiter with a contract position for BigTech reach out simultaneously. And I've been pinged at least half a dozen times for this same company over the past year.
If you want a corporate gig, I recommend a professional field where companies have trouble finding qualified candidates. That changes the calculation a lot.
This. I just responded to four separate recruiters who reached out to me this week (a record). I'll tell them all I am only open to considering half-time work and they will all creep back into the ether. But there is no doubt that if I were willing to work 40+ hours/week I'd have no problem getting my foot in the door at Big Tech or Big Aerospace.
Yesterday I had two separate recruiters from different arms of the same company reach out to me.
Hah, yes! I had one recruiter for BigTech and a recruiter with a contract position for BigTech reach out simultaneously. And I've been pinged at least half a dozen times for this same company over the past year.
Yes @Skyhigh is missing the fact that most homeless.people or those who qualify for government aid do not have any assets to fall back on. Most who are FI here have a pretty huge stash that we can tap into if needed. Even if the market drops 50% and you lose half of your invested NW you'll still have a very sizable chunk of financial assets. Throw in a paid off house (or a low mortgage) and you can live independently a long time. Or sell or rent it out or get roommate for awhile. We have options a homeless person or someone dependent on welfare doesn't have. If it's taken away they are likely going to be destitute. A card board box under an overpass and food stamps do not equate financial independence or retirement.
It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.
You are the only one who has his own define of FIRE. Everyone else has the same definition. It means having your own independent income source to support your lifestyle without ever needing to get a job again. No one who is homeless and/or dependent on welfare can make that claim. Health insurance for FIRED people is a frequent topic here, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.
By the way, 25k for a single person with a paid off house is definitely enough for a nice lifestyle. My family of 4 spends about 60k/year with a mortgage and we don't budget or deprive ourselves in the slightest.
And yes a si vie person or couple or even those with kids can live a nice life on $25k/year if they set it up right before leaving their jobs.
For the love of fucking FIRE please just leave. At this point you're ignoring everything.
No one called your children and obstacle
Great job blaming your lack of career success on them though. This is wildly unhealthy by the way.
You didn't FIRE 20 years ago. You were fired and switched to a career in home maintenance and property management.
You need to seek professional help
It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.
You are the only one who has his own define of FIRE. Everyone else has the same definition. It means having your own independent income source to support your lifestyle without ever needing to get a job again. No one who is homeless and/or dependent on welfare can make that claim. Health insurance for FIRED people is a frequent topic here, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.
By the way, 25k for a single person with a paid off house is definitely enough for a nice lifestyle. My family of 4 spends about 60k/year with a mortgage and we don't budget or deprive ourselves in the slightest.
Yes @Skyhigh is missing the fact that most homeless.people or those who qualify for government aid do not have any assets to fall back on. Most who are FI here have a pretty huge stash that we can tap into if needed. Even if the market drops 50% and you lose half of your invested NW you'll still have a very sizable chunk of financial assets. Throw in a paid off house (or a low mortgage) and you can live independently a long time. Or sell or rent it out or get roommate for awhile. We have options a homeless person or someone dependent on welfare doesn't have. If it's taken away they are likely going to be destitute. A card board box under an overpass and food stamps do not equate financial independence or retirement.
It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.
You are the only one who has his own define of FIRE. Everyone else has the same definition. It means having your own independent income source to support your lifestyle without ever needing to get a job again. No one who is homeless and/or dependent on welfare can make that claim. Health insurance for FIRED people is a frequent topic here, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.
By the way, 25k for a single person with a paid off house is definitely enough for a nice lifestyle. My family of 4 spends about 60k/year with a mortgage and we don't budget or deprive ourselves in the slightest.
And yes a si vie person or couple or even those with kids can live a nice life on $25k/year if they set it up right before leaving their jobs.
Plenty here are not so well off and are proposing to FIRE. I agree that you have more options than someone who lives on government assistance, however, so far the government has not gone bankrupt. Once a strict FIRE budget is in place you had better hope that nothing goes wrong. Selling off assets is a path people can take however it often does not end well. Imagine reaching your senior years and running out of options.
It is better to remain employed at something until you can't anymore. Life on 25K works great on paper.
@arebelspy @FrugalToque
Can we move this thread to the antimustashian wall of shame and comedy?
@arebelspy @FrugalToque
Can we move this thread to the antimustashian wall of shame and comedy?
I don't see how my life differs from that of MMM other than I have been doing it for longer. He does not sit at home and burn his days in the garden either. He is also actively building a brand and business. I believe that I am more mustachian than most here.
It is easy to take shots from the cheap seats. Why don't you share a short resume of your FIRE situation?
The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite.
If you really want advice on how to fit in to get a job, I'd be happy to help. To start, could you share a copy of your resume (with identifying information redacted)?
@arebelspy @FrugalToque
Can we move this thread to the antimustashian wall of shame and comedy?
I don't see how my life differs from that of MMM other than I have been doing it for longer. He does not sit at home and burn his days in the garden either. He is also actively building a brand and business. I believe that I am more mustachian than most here.
It is easy to take shots from the cheap seats. Why don't you share a short resume of your FIRE situation?
Good grief, your life couldn't be more different than MMM's and it's not about money or work or FIRE. It's attitude. MMM believes in Outrageous Optimism and that for many, if not most Americans and others in lucky countries, life is a Fire Hose of Opportunity. Sure doesn't seem like you share this view, which is the fundamental reason for his blog and this Forum.
You don't like... being a "wage slave", being unemployed or under employed, owning your own business, doing "meaningless" hobbies or volunteer work, being FIRE (as you define it), not being asked to play golf with the chief pilot, and on and on. You do seem to like your family (whew) but honestly, can you imaging MMM going on about how the world is against him and how there is no happiness anywhere to be found? Face punch time my friend but you'll have to smack yourself as you're impervious to any feedback from others.
Yes @Skyhigh is missing the fact that most homeless.people or those who qualify for government aid do not have any assets to fall back on. Most who are FI here have a pretty huge stash that we can tap into if needed. Even if the market drops 50% and you lose half of your invested NW you'll still have a very sizable chunk of financial assets. Throw in a paid off house (or a low mortgage) and you can live independently a long time. Or sell or rent it out or get roommate for awhile. We have options a homeless person or someone dependent on welfare doesn't have. If it's taken away they are likely going to be destitute. A card board box under an overpass and food stamps do not equate financial independence or retirement.
It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.
You are the only one who has his own define of FIRE. Everyone else has the same definition. It means having your own independent income source to support your lifestyle without ever needing to get a job again. No one who is homeless and/or dependent on welfare can make that claim. Health insurance for FIRED people is a frequent topic here, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.
By the way, 25k for a single person with a paid off house is definitely enough for a nice lifestyle. My family of 4 spends about 60k/year with a mortgage and we don't budget or deprive ourselves in the slightest.
And yes a si vie person or couple or even those with kids can live a nice life on $25k/year if they set it up right before leaving their jobs.
Plenty here are not so well off and are proposing to FIRE. I agree that you have more options than someone who lives on government assistance, however, so far the government has not gone bankrupt. Once a strict FIRE budget is in place you had better hope that nothing goes wrong. Selling off assets is a path people can take however it often does not end well. Imagine reaching your senior years and running out of options.
It is better to remain employed at something until you can't anymore. Life on 25K works great on paper.
And WTF do you have against gardening?
I thought upper crust society ladies spent their time volunteering at the gardening club. At least that is what my books tell me. :)And WTF do you have against gardening?
It's the job of a commoner not someone of upper class society.
Upper elites hire the help to do their gardening
Silly you, all volunteer work is meaningless and boring, haven't you been paying attention?I thought upper crust society ladies spent their time volunteering at the gardening club. At least that is what my books tell me. :)And WTF do you have against gardening?
It's the job of a commoner not someone of upper class society.
Upper elites hire the help to do their gardening
Ah, but everything is worth it once you break I to that upper middle class slice of society. Suddenly boring work takes on meaning because you have Made It.Silly you, all volunteer work is meaningless and boring, haven't you been paying attention?I thought upper crust society ladies spent their time volunteering at the gardening club. At least that is what my books tell me. :)And WTF do you have against gardening?
It's the job of a commoner not someone of upper class society.
Upper elites hire the help to do their gardening
And WTF do you have against gardening?
Oh duh, I forgot that utterly conflicting rule that can be invoked (like all the other arbitrary rules in this made-up universe) anytime things aren't going the "right" way.Ah, but everything is worth it once you break I to that upper middle class slice of society. Suddenly boring work takes on meaning because you have Made It.I thought upper crust society ladies spent their time volunteering at the gardening club. At least that is what my books tell me. :)Silly you, all volunteer work is meaningless and boring, haven't you been paying attention?
It’s a bit ironic to me. OP has simultaneously shown class envy and disparaged the idea of not doing something productive (or at least per his definition of productive, which only includes getting paid). The true rich don’t need to work at all because they have income-generating assets. Think Jane Austen’s landed gentry class.
FIRE is aspiring to be a modern-day landed gentry, without the land in most cases. What could be a bigger significant of financial success than not needing to work for a living?
And WTF do you have against gardening?
Do you see the Chief Pilot gardening? No!
But...was he FIRE? I guess so, since the OP has given one definition as being dependent on government subsidies and the Royals certainly meet that qualification! Oh the conundrum, someone who is FIRED enjoying digging in the awful, working-class dirt.And WTF do you have against gardening?
Do you see the Chief Pilot gardening? No!
Well when I actually met Prince Charles in 1988 (he was a fundraising sponsor for an "expedition" I had been chosen for) pretty much all he wanted to talk about was his adventures in organic gardening. And Camilla was just on Gardener's World recently talking about their gardens at Highgrove. So if it is a good enough hobby for the royals I guess it is good enough for little old me!
@arebelspy @FrugalToque+1.
Can we move this thread to the antimustashian wall of shame and comedy?
And WTF do you have against gardening?
Do you see the Chief Pilot gardening? No!
Well when I actually met Prince Charles in 1988 (he was a fundraising sponsor for an "expedition" I had been chosen for) pretty much all he wanted to talk about was his adventures in organic gardening. And Camilla was just on Gardener's World recently talking about their gardens at Highgrove. So if it is a good enough hobby for the royals I guess it is good enough for little old me!