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General Discussion => Post-FIRE => Topic started by: Skyhigh on December 18, 2019, 09:28:43 AM

Title: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 18, 2019, 09:28:43 AM
Hi, Long ago as a younger person I was able to achieve FIRE. My dream, however, has always been to be a corporate slave. I spent my life, to date, trying to achieve that goal without a result. Recently I went to my fifth interview with my career objective employer only to be rejected again.

I am well regarded, educated, and highly experienced in my field. It is beginning to seem like FIRE is preventing my progression.  Its almost like they can smell the lack of desperation in my resume. They don't see the usual wage slave career progression markers or something. I read a book recently that mentioned a culture that comes along with corporate America jobs. It went on to explain that if one does not wear the right shoes, go to certain colleges, or use specific terms they can be subtly outed as someone from the outside and passed over. They are good and well-meaning people but can not see outsiders as fitting in, one of them. I have not been able to find a book on the subject that can help. It seems that people who come from corporate wage slave families grow up with the knowledge of how to handle themselves. It's like a pedigree that can't be bought, faked, or bribed. They have connections that I do not have. Doors open for elites when needed and they seem to pass through the tiers without much resistance into a well paying and highly respected positions.

I grew up in a FIRE family. Achieving FIRE has been a natural thing for me. I watched my mother build a small real estate empire. Instead of playing football or working at a grocery store after school I would ride my bike to one of my mother's job sites and work. I took her experiences and built upon it to create something even better. I am thankful for all the opportunity it has provided however there are some incredible downsides as well. To me, FIRE feels like a wasted life. I can't do any more volunteering. I am not interested in any more classes or lower-tier experience building jobs.  I have children whom I wish to see gainfully employed as they continue to grow up. My father had a long and satisfying career. He came from an elite corporate wage slave family. He did not understand FIRE and pushed back against it until he was laid off at 47 and retired because he could.

I am most likely out of luck. Too old now. My industry has moved onto a younger generation. It is incredibly sad for me. I wanted to be an example to my children. I am not sold on FIRE for them. My FIRE peers do not seem to do well in life. FIRE at a young age leads to self-destructive behavior in my experience. FIRE at an older age accelerates the decrepitude process. People tend to stop challenging themselves. They stop growing. Bad habits creep in. There is a lot to be thankful for as a corporate wage slave; the ability to be challenged, to achieve, to be embedded in an extensive social group. I am not alone. I have several FIRE peers who desperately want to get out as well. However, they have not tried as hard as I have.

Many here will not be sympathetic to my plea however those same people have cracked the code into corporate America. I am able to earn far more working my business however to what end does it serve this existence to be well paid but stuck in the same job I was doing in High School? Isn't there supposed to be more to this life than existing in a self-indulgent FIRE lifestyle? How does one break into one of the better corporate America jobs?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: bacchi on December 18, 2019, 09:47:22 AM
You keep posting this, @Skyhigh. To what end? Are you looking for sympathy?

Your pleas almost read like satire.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 18, 2019, 10:02:27 AM

Hi, FIRE is a small peer group. Few in life share the same experience. I am reaching out here in hopes that you could tell me what to do.

In addition, my aim is to share my FIRE experiences here in an attempt to help others. There are some major downsides to this life that many have not encountered yet. A lack of purpose is one. Endless wasted days are another. The devaluation of the freedoms accomplished is everpresent. Being out of sync with the rest of the world is lonely and often sad. People outside of FIRE hold a grudge against us. It can be difficult to maintain friendships.

Single people find it difficult to meet others when they are outside of the working world. FIRE parents lose some ability to help their children to become productive adults. There is a lot more.

People are meant to work and contribute. The work should be meaningful and challenging.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: flyingaway on December 18, 2019, 10:08:11 AM
Since you don't need money, you can ask for a $1 salary to see how they respond.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: infromsea on December 18, 2019, 10:28:17 AM
An interesting post.

As someone who takes from the FIRE community what is needed and leaves other components "behind" I can sympathize with you. Being FIRE and having a pension makes it easier to do this (take what works for me and ignore some "parts"). Example, my wife wanted a ***GASP*** big old F150 to drive back and forth to work, 8 miles each way... why? She's worked hard all her life, she sees herself as a "truck girl" and she had to "give up" her truck back in the day when we first got married, married young, and pregnant. In addition, she's not "in the same place" I am "on the path" mentally/emotionally when it comes to self-knowledge and awareness so, after 15 years of negotiation between us and hitting some other financial goals, we agreed and now she's got her toy.

I say all of that to say that you've had a fairly good run at this lifestyle, you've see more/other parts of it than many, and your POV may have shifted over time. It's almost if you've been taken out of the matrix, realized you kind of liked it in the matrix and want back in... no issue here/not my place to judge/criticize, I'm not a member of the internet retirement police.

Now, if you really do want that corporate job/BS or otherwise... have you considered becoming a project manager?  I believe you were an airline pilot who FIRED and moved into real-estate? It might be hard to translate some of your experience into the hours of experience you need for some of the PM certifications (much of the requirements are arbitrary and only there to keep the bar/income potential of the certs high) but this is one of my specialties, helping veterans translate military experience into application experience, I could offer you the same (free of course). At the risk of being the guy with a hammer wanting to use it on every nail, I've found the PMP to be a real asset, allowing me to swap fields and move into work from home in support of healthcare/insurance, even though my 24 years of military experience was in Naval Aviation Maintenance, the cert still opens doors in nearly every industry.

I can see the truth in many of your posts, we (humans) need challenges that matter to us, we also desire status and, at times, things. In addition, we are all on different spots along the path and who are any of us to challenge the beliefs/thoughts/desires of others, especially someone "further on" down the path and as long as they are not "hitting us in the nose when they swing their fist". Also, some jobs come with perks you won't otherwise get. I don't get to go on-board aircraft carriers anymore, go out to sea with them, watch jets launch and recover, I've moved on, I'm beyond that and working to re-enforce other parts of my identify (and ultimately let all of that and the ego go but that's a LONG damn process...). So, I've "lost" perks but they don't mean so much to me that I'd take a crummy GOVT contractor job just to head back out to sea, I'm ok with it. However, there are some GOOD perks out there with some of this positions, many of them using OPM to cover lots of expenses, I can see the drive for some.

In summary, might I suggest a PMP/other project MGR certification, a remote position or one in support of a cause you care about (something I'm looking for, moving into support of a non-profit/veteran related position), something that has some of the perks yet still gives you max flexibility/freedom (two things that probably increase our contentment more than pay or another XXXX or ZZZZ). I've met lots of "older" PMs who came from other industries, I don't think ageism is as bad in this line of work.

Good luck on your journey down the path!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ixtap on December 18, 2019, 10:31:03 AM
Or could it be that your disdain and distrust are coming through in the interviews?

If you are getting interviews, it is unlikely that your problem is an employment gap. They would filter for that prior to the interview stage.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DadJokes on December 18, 2019, 10:37:14 AM
Why do you equate meaningful work with working in corporate America?

I bet there are a lot of nonprofits that would provide far more meaningful work for someone who doesn't actually need the money.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 18, 2019, 12:18:11 PM
Since you don't need money, you can ask for a $1 salary to see how they respond.

It seems that employers want people who are on the financial hook. They like indentured servants who are afraid to lose their jobs due to financial need. It is my belief that they are looking for those that they can dominate and extort. My strategy is to try and project the opposite impression of being able to work for free. I have plenty of experience building jobs in my field that essentially are of the "work for free" nature. It seems that they want to keep those people working for free in the lower ranks as long as possible. In order to move up, one must express an attitude of being willing to work for a competitor if necessary.

Thanks though!

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 18, 2019, 12:23:52 PM
Why do you equate meaningful work with working in corporate America?

I bet there are a lot of nonprofits that would provide far more meaningful work for someone who doesn't actually need the money.

Hi, I have spent many years being a volunteer firefighter, on various boards helping affordable housing and other civil duties. I worked at a ski resort for fun. It all seems like time-wasting to me. Mostly older retired people on civic boards. As someone in FIRE your peer group tends to be decades older. Nice people but I am too young for the 5am McDonald's coffee crowd. LOL 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 18, 2019, 12:41:29 PM
Or could it be that your disdain and distrust are coming through in the interviews?

If you are getting interviews, it is unlikely that your problem is an employment gap. They would filter for that prior to the interview stage.

I am on the older side of things now however, I do have a resume of many valuable current employment experiences. They asked me strange questions in the interview. They clearly seemed to see something in my background that they did not like. I did have some employment gaps due to economic ups and downs long ago (and because I did not have to work the truely miserable jobs). Older people tend to have resumes that reflect irregularities more than younger people.

They tried to make me accept a lower position. However, I have already been down that road and it is a dead end.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 18, 2019, 01:03:02 PM


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: infromsea on December 18, 2019, 01:18:42 PM
Since you don't need money, you can ask for a $1 salary to see how they respond.
It seems that employers want people who are on the financial hook. They like indentured servants who are afraid to lose their jobs due to financial need. It is my belief that they are looking for those that they can dominate and extort. My strategy is to try and project the opposite impression of being able to work for free.

Thanks though!

To state the obvious, it depends on who/where you are "working".

I do my corporate job in a manner of "do what the job requires, piss off on the extra meetings and socializing crap, if you don't like my level of performance, I can walk, no hurt feelings" and the supervisor/ORG have zero issue with that. I didn't go in saying that but I've demonstrated it time and time again through behavior.

Another team MBR is the "nervous Nancy" who is always STRIVING to demonstrate his worth but that's because he's near the end, doesn't want to jeopardize his retirement or health insurance so he makes DAMN sure the supervisor knows what he's up to and is, in all manner, a pest. I suspect that the supervisor appreciates his work but, at the same time, realizes how annoying this behavior is (look at the work I did on this powerpoint today, oh wait, here is an update 30 minutes later, oh wait, here's another update at the end of the day... constantly...) but doesn't squash NOR encourage it.

I'm lucky to be in this position and will probably regret it when it's gone. There ARE positions like this "out there", just maybe not in your physical area?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: blue_green_sparks on December 18, 2019, 02:15:10 PM
After years as an electrical design engineer for blue chip corporations I finally caved and became a manager. Honestly I would be a bit hesitant to hire someone who didn't really "need" the job. It is just one consideration among many. When the deadline approaches....is it the needless one who will work Saturday and Sunday, unpaid? Maybe/Maybe not. I saw plenty of people who could/should have retired just chatting and surfing the net hour after hour.

For some of us early retirement is simply glorious.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 18, 2019, 06:40:01 PM
It’s not that easy to un-FIRE. It is comfortable to not be on the leash. Kind of a golden handcuff situation especially when there are no assurances of gaining a suitable result. I may have to start over at the complete bottom again. However I don't have 15 years left to climb the ladder all over again.

It is difficult to Un-FIRE and FIRE is not perfect.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 18, 2019, 06:57:41 PM
After years as an electrical design engineer for blue chip corporations I finally caved and became a manager. Honestly I would be a bit hesitant to hire someone who didn't really "need" the job. It is just one consideration among many. When the deadline approaches....is it the needless one who will work Saturday and Sunday, unpaid? Maybe/Maybe not. I saw plenty of people who could/should have retired just chatting and surfing the net hour after hour.

For some of us early retirement is simply glorious.

I am sure that early retirement is great after achieving some sort of professional satisfaction. Lottery winners usually don’t do well with their new life. The after glow usually lasts a year or two before the monotony of endless useless days sets in.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 18, 2019, 07:11:13 PM


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work.    You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you.  Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way.  You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job. 

Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FreshlyFIREd on December 19, 2019, 02:52:44 AM


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work.    You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you.  Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way.  You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job. 

Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.

What he said ...
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 19, 2019, 03:14:40 AM
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 19, 2019, 08:10:09 AM
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?

It seems that if someone wants a career here then they must be crazy. I believe that endless days of self indulgent existence is not a good thing for younger people. To intentionally idle oneself and suspend their vital function to this world is not a good idea. To what end does it serve to cease being a contributing member of society?

It is not all that satisfying to be out of sync with the rest of the world. To be skiing on a Wednesday while everyone is at work loses its appeal very fast. Self esteem is linked to ones career. Satisfaction comes from completing a difficult task using all ones best gifts. FIRE is very depressing to most I have seen. It makes them take on bad habits, self destructive behaviors, and brings on depression.

Consider a dinner party. Everyone there usually discusses professional accomplishments, goals, past positions. Someone who has achieved FIRE can share the fence they mended or lawnmower they repaired. Not a meaningful use of time for those of us with advanced degrees and skill sets. Those who have achieved FIRE can not be reckless with their funds since they need it to last for decades. Those with careers can afford to blow their paycheck since there is another on the way in two weeks. Working seems to provide an abundance mentality.

I guess I am trying to improve my attitude through an attempt to reclaim my career dreams. I do not believe that FIRE is healthy place for most.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 19, 2019, 08:19:22 AM


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work.    You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you.  Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way.  You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job. 

Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.

Thank you for your input. :)

I currently work lower rung positions and have for some time. I am getting older. It is time for me to achieve my career objective position. No more volunteer stuff. I am through with supporting roles.

My industry is looking for fools to fill the lower rungs at a quarter of the wages. Accepting the lower jobs does not help after a while. I do network and go to several job fairs a year. I write letters and constantly apply to several companies.

I maintain a large network of similar older peers who are experiencing the same rejection. It seems there is an unseen method of getting the better positions that my peers and  I am not privy too.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: infromsea on December 19, 2019, 09:22:52 AM
After years as an electrical design engineer for blue chip corporations I finally caved and became a manager. Honestly I would be a bit hesitant to hire someone who didn't really "need" the job. It is just one consideration among many. When the deadline approaches....is it the needless one who will work Saturday and Sunday, unpaid? Maybe/Maybe not. I saw plenty of people who could/should have retired just chatting and surfing the net hour after hour.

I would ask "why does the person not need to work"?

If they don't HAVE to work due to FIRE/good prior decisions, I would suspect that the individual may be MORE of an assets since they probably developed good skills and work habits on their way to FIRE. Example, I hate wasting time in mindless meetings (as you mention other wasting time on the net etc.) and, in the corporate environment that many try to create (and I push to reject), meetings often accomplish little and result in only more meetings, the proverbial "move that stack of papers from one place on the desk to another place and call it work". So, I push to end those meetings as soon as it is obvious that we have nothing of substance to discuss. I also don't join meetings that I have nothing of value to add/work to do. Now, when there IS work to be done, I focus, I do it within a very short time frame, I ask for feedback, I make corrections as needed and I respond/stay in good communication with others. So, just because someone doesn't "need" a job doesn't mean they won't do well at it.

Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?

I was thinking the same thing, there is likely something other than a desire for work that is driving this, what are the underlying needs etc. that are not being met and causing this desire for "work"? To get touchy-feely for a minute, could there be an un-resolved issue from the "animal mind/needs" that is pushing this desire/need/want into the consciousness? OP, consider reading Awareness by Demillo, it is eye-opening.

Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?

Consider a dinner party. Everyone there usually discusses professional accomplishments, goals, past positions. Someone who has achieved FIRE can share the fence they mended or lawnmower they repaired. Not a meaningful use of time for those of us with advanced degrees and skill sets. Those who have achieved FIRE can not be reckless with their funds since they need it to last for decades. Those with careers can afford to blow their paycheck since there is another on the way in two weeks. Working seems to provide an abundance mentality.

I guess I am trying to improve my attitude through an attempt to reclaim my career dreams. I do not believe that FIRE is healthy place for most.

I would suggest removing the assumptions that XXX or YYY isn't good for "most" and simply state that the principles are not for "all" or they don't work for "some". Assuming that OUR experience is THE experience and that most people (who are not in our head, not from our experience, not in the same place we are) is a common fallacy. Different strokes for different folks and all...

Can you find another "tribe" (slight shudder when typing that...) to engage with? I'm a vet so I interact/engage with many vet groups and take what I need for them/produce many "dinner party stories" in that process.



I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.
Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting. 

I suffer from this (half-assed attempts to find another/different "job/work") and it's usually due to boredom or a temporary mood/bad experience. Once I set with the situation and consider my situation from a birds-eye view, I remind myself of how blessed I am/good I have it, and often change my mental state into one of acceptance and gratitude VS irritation and boredom/agitation.
Title: Financial Paranoia
Post by: Skyhigh on December 19, 2019, 09:38:08 AM

We have a relative who achieved FIRE at 44. He one of those Microsoft millionaires who cashed in just as their professional utility began to wane. It has been some time now and he has done well with his investments however at family gatherings people sinker when he always needs to "share" a coke with someone. He is notoriously frugal even though he is a millionaire many times over.

He suffers from what I call Financial Paranoia. He has developed a fear of running out of money since he no longer has job skills of value. He has no safety net and is constantly watching the market with great trepidation and fear. I know the signs because I have it too. After my career dumped me on the street and achieved FIRE I am constantly looking over my shoulder.  I am responsible for 8 people in my family and six employees.  It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

I don't have a safety net anymore. FIRE can create a scarcity mindset and it is not fun. In order to grow the top line, I am constantly taking on new properties and construction projects. Each one comes with a healthy dose of trepidation. I have seen plenty of successful real estate investors crater in the most spectacular manner. No one is ever truly safe from financial ruin. Those with valuable job skills can always get another job or fall back onto their portfolios. Those who have achieved FIRE often do not have a career to fall back onto. It is often an uncomfortable situation to be in.
Title: Re: Financial Paranoia
Post by: infromsea on December 19, 2019, 09:54:32 AM
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.

You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: sui generis on December 19, 2019, 11:52:19 AM


I always figured that when the market recovered I would make it back. It seems like it is possibly over for me. I believe that FIRE is a contributing factor. I don't want to be permanently retired yet. I am too young. It feels like a wasted life. I am burned out on FIRE.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

It is abundantly clear that you don't want to go back to work.    You mentioned many times you could take a job, but it would be beneath you.  Since all jobs that fit your skill set are beneath you, in your mind you can safely reject every job that comes your way.  You also pointedly reject even doing things like networking
that might help you get a job. 

Since you have an intense desire to never return to work, why not just accept retirement?  Retirement surely must be more fulfilling than your third-assed attempts at job hunting.

Thank you for your input. :)

I currently work lower rung positions and have for some time. I am getting older. It is time for me to achieve my career objective position. No more volunteer stuff. I am through with supporting roles.

My industry is looking for fools to fill the lower rungs at a quarter of the wages. Accepting the lower jobs does not help after a while. I do network and go to several job fairs a year. I write letters and constantly apply to several companies.

I maintain a large network of similar older peers who are experiencing the same rejection. It seems there is an unseen method of getting the better positions that my peers and  I am not privy too.

Here's the secret you are not privy to - you have to work the lower positions and do a good job at them to get promoted to the higher positions with the prestige you seem to think you need and deserve.  You have either not done the jobs that give you the experience you need to get the jobs you think you deserve, or you have and you have done poorly and have not been considered for promotion by those handing out the prestigious jobs. 

I'm not sure why you think you deserve these prestigious jobs, and I've previously addressed on another (nearly identical) thread of yours why you are fooling yourself that you need a prestigious job to be happy.

The fact that you spend so much time and effort pursuing something you believe you want is laudatory. The fact that you've been unable to achieve it seems to have some lessons in it that you just refuse to learn, and you just keep ending up at the same starting point, lamenting your bad luck and terrible situation.  Seems like an awful cycle to be stuck in and I wish you the best in making progress escaping it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ericrugiero on December 19, 2019, 02:28:40 PM
I have a co-worker who has expressed similar complaints about how certain people get promoted and others do not.  He thinks it's a conspiracy or "they" have picked who "they" like and are going to promote.  From the outside looking in it's very obvious that the reason he hasn't been promoted is his terrible attitude.  He is a smart guy with a conspiracy theory and a bad attitude. 

I don't know enough about Skyhigh to say if something similar is going on.  I do know from my experience the people who are promoted typically either:
-Do a great job and deserve it
-Suck up to the bosses and fool them
-Have an extra reason to be promoted such as friends in high places, diversity, etc

Skyhigh, I would recommend you think about what will really make you happy.  Everyone should have a purpose in their life and working hard to accomplish something does provide a sense of accomplishment.  On the other hand, getting the meaning of your life from work can be miserable and leaves you susceptible to "failure" if you lose your job.  If you want a good job you should look very hard at what kind of attitude you present when applying.  Being a little older is definitely a down side for many employers because they want someone who they can train to work there for many years.  But, if you go in with a defensive attitude about that then the interviewers will definitely pick up on it and will have a legitimate reason to bypass you. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 19, 2019, 03:19:34 PM
Maybe instead of fruitless job hunting you should turn your attention to fixing what is wrong with your mental state that is leaving you so profoundly unhappy. If you are unhappy with what most of us here are striving for then I have a hard time seeing the addition of a job suddenly snapping everything into place and leaving you at peace with the world. Is there someone you can go talk to?

It seems that if someone wants a career here then they must be crazy. I believe that endless days of self indulgent existence is not a good thing for younger people. To intentionally idle oneself and suspend their vital function to this world is not a good idea. To what end does it serve to cease being a contributing member of society?

It is not all that satisfying to be out of sync with the rest of the world. To be skiing on a Wednesday while everyone is at work loses its appeal very fast. Self esteem is linked to ones career. Satisfaction comes from completing a difficult task using all ones best gifts. FIRE is very depressing to most I have seen. It makes them take on bad habits, self destructive behaviors, and brings on depression.

Consider a dinner party. Everyone there usually discusses professional accomplishments, goals, past positions. Someone who has achieved FIRE can share the fence they mended or lawnmower they repaired. Not a meaningful use of time for those of us with advanced degrees and skill sets. Those who have achieved FIRE can not be reckless with their funds since they need it to last for decades. Those with careers can afford to blow their paycheck since there is another on the way in two weeks. Working seems to provide an abundance mentality.

I guess I am trying to improve my attitude through an attempt to reclaim my career dreams. I do not believe that FIRE is healthy place for most.

I feel your FIRE experience is out of step with the majority of people on this forum. Over on the Post-FI threads the consensus seems to be contentment, even joy at their lot in life. People constantly talk about how wonderful it is to be able to ski on a Wednesday when there are no lift lines, or go grocery shopping when no one else is there to fight for a parking spot.

This line struck me: "endless days of self indulgent existence" - maybe that is the root of your discontentment. No one here is advocating a vision of FI where you sit around and eat bonbons all day. MMM talks a lot about how satisfaction in life comes from hard work, physical and mental. It is just that FI allows you to do that on your own terms. So instead of a career you can work out and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and play in a community orchestra or sing in a choir and spend more time with your kids and go hiking/camping, and read all the books, and.... (yes, I am listing my personal wish list of things to do in FI). If you don't do anything meaningful with your time then you will end up bored and depressed. I think the pushback you are getting is that a career is certainly not the only way to do something meaningful with your time, and if you can't think of anything, then you should spend some time reexamining yourself.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 19, 2019, 04:46:08 PM
I feel your FIRE experience is out of step with the majority of people on this forum. Over on the Post-FI threads the consensus seems to be contentment, even joy at their lot in life. People constantly talk about how wonderful it is to be able to ski on a Wednesday when there are no lift lines, or go grocery shopping when no one else is there to fight for a parking spot.

This line struck me: "endless days of self indulgent existence" - maybe that is the root of your discontentment. No one here is advocating a vision of FI where you sit around and eat bonbons all day. MMM talks a lot about how satisfaction in life comes from hard work, physical and mental. It is just that FI allows you to do that on your own terms. So instead of a career you can work out and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and play in a community orchestra or sing in a choir and spend more time with your kids and go hiking/camping, and read all the books, and.... (yes, I am listing my personal wish list of things to do in FI). If you don't do anything meaningful with your time then you will end up bored and depressed. I think the pushback you are getting is that a career is certainly not the only way to do something meaningful with your time, and if you can't think of anything, then you should spend some time reexamining yourself.

The OP wants to spend his days furthering his career in corporate America.  I don't see a thing wrong with that desire.  Some people just want or need external direction and validation.  The OP appears to be one of those people.  More power to him, if that's the case. 

The pushback seems to be that he is unwilling to take the necessary steps to advance his career.   The path to a good corporate job is simple and in plain sight:  Develop an in-demand skill set and become a top performer in your chosen field. 

While simple, that path is seldom easy and usually requires doing things your peers are unwilling to do.     Working both harder and smarter, professional development on your own time, taking challenging projects that test your abilities, taking shitty projects no one else wants, seeking out networking events, joining and leading professional organizations, mentoring others, etc.   Most people don't want to do all that, so they wind up getting stuck where the OP is, at mid-level positions with little hope of advancement. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Zette on December 19, 2019, 09:28:08 PM
SkyHigh, I think what you’re missing is that most everyone in corporate America eventually finds themselves stalled somewhere on the promotion ladder.  Very few make it to the high rungs. Just thinking about the engineering jobs I had, only about 1 in 10 would even be a first level manager.  Perhaps after putting in 15 years that might be 1 in 5.  There might be 5 first level managers reporting to a director, and 5-10 directors reporting to the VP of Engineering.   So of about 500 engineers, only one is in a position to majorly influence the direction of the company.   You’ve taken entry level positions, haven’t put in the years required to build political capital and network, and wonder why you haven’t reached the senior positions.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 20, 2019, 02:06:49 AM
I feel your FIRE experience is out of step with the majority of people on this forum. Over on the Post-FI threads the consensus seems to be contentment, even joy at their lot in life. People constantly talk about how wonderful it is to be able to ski on a Wednesday when there are no lift lines, or go grocery shopping when no one else is there to fight for a parking spot.

This line struck me: "endless days of self indulgent existence" - maybe that is the root of your discontentment. No one here is advocating a vision of FI where you sit around and eat bonbons all day. MMM talks a lot about how satisfaction in life comes from hard work, physical and mental. It is just that FI allows you to do that on your own terms. So instead of a career you can work out and volunteer for Habitat for Humanity and play in a community orchestra or sing in a choir and spend more time with your kids and go hiking/camping, and read all the books, and.... (yes, I am listing my personal wish list of things to do in FI). If you don't do anything meaningful with your time then you will end up bored and depressed. I think the pushback you are getting is that a career is certainly not the only way to do something meaningful with your time, and if you can't think of anything, then you should spend some time reexamining yourself.

The OP wants to spend his days furthering his career in corporate America.  I don't see a thing wrong with that desire.  Some people just want or need external direction and validation.  The OP appears to be one of those people.  More power to him, if that's the case. 

The pushback seems to be that he is unwilling to take the necessary steps to advance his career.   The path to a good corporate job is simple and in plain sight:  Develop an in-demand skill set and become a top performer in your chosen field. 

While simple, that path is seldom easy and usually requires doing things your peers are unwilling to do.     Working both harder and smarter, professional development on your own time, taking challenging projects that test your abilities, taking shitty projects no one else wants, seeking out networking events, joining and leading professional organizations, mentoring others, etc.   Most people don't want to do all that, so they wind up getting stuck where the OP is, at mid-level positions with little hope of advancement.
That is a fair observation. But then if the issue is a desire to get ahead in a career, that is its own separate question unrelated to FIRE. It almost feels like the OP is blaming being FI for a lack of career progression.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2019, 06:31:39 AM
You keep posting the exact same thread over and over and over again, and you keep trying to blame FIRE for all of your problems.

Well, that's just ridiculous.

If you keep running into the same problem over and over again and the same approach isn't working to solve it, then for fuck's sake, try something different.

FYI, I have *exactly* the job that I think you want. I work casually on and off for a few corporations (I could work full time if I wanted to), I get the executive level meetings, the private club dinners, cool job titles, an expense account, even those fobs and IDs that you lust after. I'm paid very well per hour of work, I don't have to do any work that's "beneath me", actually, I don't have to do any work I don't want to do period.

4 years ago, these jobs didn't exist and I had no possible way to get them. I made them exist. I made myself uniquely valuable through skills training, networking, and volunteering for special projects.

Like you, I felt cornered by my professional training and experience. I was trained to do one thing and one thing only and that career was closing its doors to me because of my health problems. I can't really go back and even if I could, I'm getting too old to go back and do it in the most successful way. My original career dream was totally crushed within the first 3 years of working.

I had exactly zero other doors open to me until I pried them open through sheer will and determination.

So you can only have it one of two ways.
You can continue your pity party and blame being financially liberated for all of your woes.
OR
You can nut up, realize that you are the ONLY thing standing in your way, and figure out what YOU are doing that is creating a barrier between you and your stated goals.

Really though, stop whining that the world isn't handing you exactly what you want in exactly the form that you want it for exactly the amount of effort that you want to put in.

If you want to compete for high status corporate work, then yeah, you are going to have to compete with very hungry competition who are younger and far more willing to eat shit than you are. You will either have to be hungrier than they are, or find a way to make yourself so uniquely valuable that they can't ever compete with you.

That's what I did. It was fucking hard work.
So suck it up and do the work or sit down and learn to enjoy your retirement.

Either way, consider getting yourself some therapy because coming here and posting threads that you know full well will end in people heavily criticizing you is not a mentally healthy habit.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on December 20, 2019, 07:53:22 AM
Lame troll post, again.

Get a life.  You do need a real job, keep trying.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2019, 11:27:09 AM

Hi,

Thanks everyone. I have read "Mans Search for Meaning" and many other books. It is something that FIRE people do. We read a lot of financial and improvement type books.

I don't think this is a "troll" thread at all but rather an important question. Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?

I am a highly trained and educated professional who spends his days accomplishing the exact same grueling manual labor tasks that I want to college to escape from. I have staff and can afford to hire much of it out but I can't bring myself to pay others the punishing sum they want. I received a quote from a professional painter the other day to paint the interior of a house and they wanted $6000. I can paint a house in two days. FIRE can change a professional into a manual laborer since my financial fears will not let me spend that kind of money on something I could do.

My point is that FIRE has some incredible downsides; it's lonely, may not provide a great example for children, can destroy employability, often is the cause of financial paranoia, depression, and other attitude challenges. I don't believe that humans are supposed to be professionally idle at any age but especially as younger people. Those of us who have the ability to achieve FIRE often are professional high achievers. In my opinion, it is unhealthy to park that capacity.

I am certain that plenty here will share an opposing view and I welcome it. This is a forum, a place to share opposing ideas in a public place.
 

Title: Re: Financial Paranoia
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2019, 11:35:36 AM
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.

You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?

Thank you very much. I do have professional career guides and the ideas they have are great but would mean risking the security we currently have. My business is reaching a point where I could take on that challenge however it is not fun to have to start over at the bottom especially when there are no assurances that it will produce the results I am after.

My angst comes from a sense of doors closing. The opportunity cost of FIRE is making itself known and I don't like it.
Title: Re: Financial Paranoia
Post by: sui generis on December 20, 2019, 11:54:37 AM
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.

You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?

Thank you very much. I do have professional career guides and the ideas they have are great but would mean risking the security we currently have. My business is reaching a point where I could take on that challenge however it is not fun to have to start over at the bottom especially when there are no assurances that it will produce the results I am after.

My angst comes from a sense of doors closing. The opportunity cost of FIRE is making itself known and I don't like it.

Are you f'ing kidding me with this?  You are so unhappy in FIRE and so desperate for a corporate "wage slave" job that you are making multiple redundant posts across this forum, but because what you need to do to achieve your dream is "not fun" and a little uncertain you'd just rather sit around and complain more?  Guess what?  Pursuing your dreams is always uncertain and no one ever said it would be fun.  In fact, I'm pretty sure people only ever talk about how hard it is. 

Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one that is getting pretty sick and tired of your broad generalizations about FIRE.  You need to learn to speak only from your experience and only on behalf of yourself until and unless you have significant data to back up your claims that FIRE is generally harmful.  There are plenty of us that engaging our minds and bodies in ways we never have before, even when we were in high-powered corporate jobs that you've never been able to achieve.  We've found meaning and happiness, value and connection, and your posting here about how wasteful it is to make a difference in one's community by volunteering or get out and do activities that are inarguably healthy for the mind and the body like hiking is so contrary to most human being's values that I almost wonder if you are some kind of AI with terrible programming. 

I'm sorry that FIRE has been such a terrible experience for you.  But please GTFO and do something about it instead of making so many redundant posts here.  Talk about a waste of time and human potential...
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2019, 12:04:05 PM
SkyHigh, I think what you’re missing is that most everyone in corporate America eventually finds themselves stalled somewhere on the promotion ladder.  Very few make it to the high rungs. Just thinking about the engineering jobs I had, only about 1 in 10 would even be a first level manager.  Perhaps after putting in 15 years that might be 1 in 5.  There might be 5 first level managers reporting to a director, and 5-10 directors reporting to the VP of Engineering.   So of about 500 engineers, only one is in a position to majorly influence the direction of the company.   You’ve taken entry level positions, haven’t put in the years required to build political capital and network, and wonder why you haven’t reached the senior positions.

Hi,

I spent my 20's and 30's building my resume. I paid my dues many times over and reached a point where the next step was to my professional objective. I was receiving interviews before the market collapsed. It's back now and my resume is competitive. I have been called in for one interview but they can't relate to my situation. I go to several job fairs every year and see plenty of others in a similar situation. One interviewer referred to us older displaced workers trying to return to our profession as "retreads".

It most likely is ageism, however, their insistence that I start over suggests that they want to know how desperate I am. It is a measure of one's willingness to be placed into a bad situation for the career. FIRE makes it so that I don't have to do that. Sometimes it seems that financial need propels others through difficult stuff to achieve the desired result. Freedom to avoid the harder stuff can seem to make one ineligible for employment.  Golden handcuffs.
Title: Re: Financial Paranoia
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2019, 12:11:15 PM
It appears that I have no safety net anymore since my professional efforts are going unanswered. I am the envy of my professional comrades, all my friends and family, and live in constant fear.

Been there! I tell folks what I "do" (I don't really work, it's tech/knowledge stuff, not "work" in the sense I was raised... but that's for me to "deal" with) and they admit jealousy/want to do what I'm doing and I warn them that it's not for everyone, that you must have a powerful why (for me, it was being home after 24 years of being gone 60% of the time to be around kiddo in her last few years at home, it was worth it!). Bottom line, conditions change, we change as people. Forget about the envy of anyone/others and do what works for YOU, in YOUR situation, YOUR mental space.

You know this stuff, you probably advise others in a similar manner. What is the crux? What is holding you back? You've had success in many ways/places/aspects of life up to this point, what's the hold back here? As others stated, might be time to find someone to chat with, maybe just a "life coach" (slight shudder...) or a career adviser, someone not in your head who can look at your situation objectively, maybe show you some aspects you are missing/avenues to travel down/verbally "shake you up" a little?

Thank you very much. I do have professional career guides and the ideas they have are great but would mean risking the security we currently have. My business is reaching a point where I could take on that challenge however it is not fun to have to start over at the bottom especially when there are no assurances that it will produce the results I am after.

My angst comes from a sense of doors closing. The opportunity cost of FIRE is making itself known and I don't like it.

Are you f'ing kidding me with this?  You are so unhappy in FIRE and so desperate for a corporate "wage slave" job that you are making multiple redundant posts across this forum, but because what you need to do to achieve your dream is "not fun" and a little uncertain you'd just rather sit around and complain more?  Guess what?  Pursuing your dreams is always uncertain and no one ever said it would be fun.  In fact, I'm pretty sure people only ever talk about how hard it is. 

Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one that is getting pretty sick and tired of your broad generalizations about FIRE.  You need to learn to speak only from your experience and only on behalf of yourself until and unless you have significant data to back up your claims that FIRE is generally harmful.  There are plenty of us that engaging our minds and bodies in ways we never have before, even when we were in high-powered corporate jobs that you've never been able to achieve.  We've found meaning and happiness, value and connection, and your posting here about how wasteful it is to make a difference in one's community by volunteering or get out and do activities that are inarguably healthy for the mind and the body like hiking is so contrary to most human being's values that I almost wonder if you are some kind of AI with terrible programming. 

I'm sorry that FIRE has been such a terrible experience for you.  But please GTFO and do something about it instead of making so many redundant posts here.  Talk about a waste of time and human potential...

I do not have a research department that will measure up to your requirements. However, I do have considerable life experience living FIRE and feel authorized to make such statements. I have studied this concept for several decades now and use an extensive peer group as a database. I come from a family who has lived FIRE and have been able to observe their life results. Take it or leave it, however, I have a right to express my opinions as I see it. You do not have to qualify your statements.  A forum is a place to express ideas and opinions in a public manner for discussion.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2019, 12:25:55 PM
Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?

This is literally my reality.
I'm trained as a highly specialized, highly technical procedural medical professional who has had to give up working with my hands. Those doors are closed.

As I already said, I worked very very hard to diversify my skills and generate opportunities that don't involve me utilizing my training, but still challenge and reward me.

I don't mow lawns or do manual labour of any sort.
I don't do any low skill tasks at all except around my own home. It's been a lot of hard work to get here, and no one told me how to do it. I hit a lot of blocks along the way, abandoned a lot of ideas, and adjusted to the realities of what my market actually wanted from me.

In what universe is managing properties the only work available in FIRE? I mean, you do know whose blog this forum belongs to right? You do know what Pete does with his time, right?

Plenty of people do great work that is rewarding in FIRE. FIRE doesn't have any negative consequences that you don't allow it to have.

You are the person failing to generate such opportunities for yourself. You are the person not thinking outside the box. You are the person who is hitting the exact same road block over and over and over again and refusing to find a way around it.

You do this every time. You conveniently curate the responses you get to match your version of reality where you are some kind of victim.
You aren't.

FIRE is not your problem.
As long as you keep imagining that it is, you will keep bashing your own head against the same barriers
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2019, 03:56:34 PM
Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?

This is literally my reality.
I'm trained as a highly specialized, highly technical procedural medical professional who has had to give up working with my hands. Those doors are closed.

As I already said, I worked very very hard to diversify my skills and generate opportunities that don't involve me utilizing my training, but still challenge and reward me.

I don't mow lawns or do manual labour of any sort.
I don't do any low skill tasks at all except around my own home. It's been a lot of hard work to get here, and no one told me how to do it. I hit a lot of blocks along the way, abandoned a lot of ideas, and adjusted to the realities of what my market actually wanted from me.

In what universe is managing properties the only work available in FIRE? I mean, you do know whose blog this forum belongs to right? You do know what Pete does with his time, right?

Plenty of people do great work that is rewarding in FIRE. FIRE doesn't have any negative consequences that you don't allow it to have.

You are the person failing to generate such opportunities for yourself. You are the person not thinking outside the box. You are the person who is hitting the exact same road block over and over and over again and refusing to find a way around it.

You do this every time. You conveniently curate the responses you get to match your version of reality where you are some kind of victim.
You aren't.

FIRE is not your problem.
As long as you keep imagining that it is, you will keep bashing your own head against the same barriers

Thank you.

All I can say is that FIRE can create its own kind of imprisonment. It's too good to leave but not very satisfying at times. I don't like some of the things that come with it; financial paranoia, cruel manual labor, lack of job satisfaction, loss of professional value, scarcity mentality, loneliness, boredom.... ect.  I am certain that some people are able to find satisfying outlets in FIRE however in my experience the most common path to FIRE involves severe financial self-deprivation and demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer.

The barriers I face are self-created and a side effect of FIRE. Plenty of people here are looking at strategies that involve most of the things I have been dealing with for a long time now. Parts of it are not that appealing. A solid paycheck and benefits can look pretty good.

I have read much of Pete's blog. It all looks familiar to me. I haven't read much lately though. I will make the effort.

Update: I just took a look at Pete's blog and it seems like he does a lot of the same things. I build/remodel and manage real estate. My kids did not even know that pizza could be delivered until recently. We never go out to eat, no TV, and live a financially deprived life. Our cars are old. It's the only life I have known. Am I missing something?

On the upside: Most everything I work on is something that I own. I live where I want and largely how I want. My kids grew up without going to daycare. Since being laid off I have slept in my own bed and am not forced to travel much. I go to sleep when I am tired and get up when rested (unless the kids have school). I never get stuck in traffic jams. I am the master of my days. All it took in trade were my professional dreams and that bothers me at times.   
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2019, 05:10:11 PM
Example: If a gifted surgeon were able to quit the practice and manage rental properties to what end does mowing lawns and threatening tenants do for his/her gifts? How does demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer provide a higher quality of life?

This is literally my reality.
I'm trained as a highly specialized, highly technical procedural medical professional who has had to give up working with my hands. Those doors are closed.

As I already said, I worked very very hard to diversify my skills and generate opportunities that don't involve me utilizing my training, but still challenge and reward me.

I don't mow lawns or do manual labour of any sort.
I don't do any low skill tasks at all except around my own home. It's been a lot of hard work to get here, and no one told me how to do it. I hit a lot of blocks along the way, abandoned a lot of ideas, and adjusted to the realities of what my market actually wanted from me.

In what universe is managing properties the only work available in FIRE? I mean, you do know whose blog this forum belongs to right? You do know what Pete does with his time, right?

Plenty of people do great work that is rewarding in FIRE. FIRE doesn't have any negative consequences that you don't allow it to have.

You are the person failing to generate such opportunities for yourself. You are the person not thinking outside the box. You are the person who is hitting the exact same road block over and over and over again and refusing to find a way around it.

You do this every time. You conveniently curate the responses you get to match your version of reality where you are some kind of victim.
You aren't.

FIRE is not your problem.
As long as you keep imagining that it is, you will keep bashing your own head against the same barriers

Thank you.

All I can say is that FIRE can create its own kind of imprisonment. It's too good to leave but not very satisfying at times. I don't like some of the things that come with it; financial paranoia, cruel manual labor, lack of job satisfaction, loss of professional value, scarcity mentality, loneliness, boredom.... ect.  I am certain that some people are able to find satisfying outlets in FIRE however in my experience the most common path to FIRE involves severe financial self-deprivation and demoting oneself to that of a manual laborer.

The barriers I face are self-created and a side effect of FIRE. Plenty of people here are looking at strategies that involve most of the things I have been dealing with for a long time now. Parts of it are not that appealing. A solid paycheck and benefits can look pretty good.

I have read much of Pete's blog. It all looks familiar to me. I haven't read much lately though. I will make the effort.

Update: I just took a look at Pete's blog and it seems like he does a lot of the same things. I build/remodel and manage real estate. My kids did not even know that pizza could be delivered until recently. We never go out to eat, no TV, and live a financially deprived life. Our cars are old. It's the only life I have known. Am I missing something?

On the upside: Most everything I work on is something that I own. I live where I want and largely how I want. My kids grew up without going to daycare. Since being laid off I have slept in my own bed and am not forced to travel much. I go to sleep when I am tired and get up when rested (unless the kids have school). I never get stuck in traffic jams. I am the master of my days. All it took in trade were my professional dreams and that bothers me at times.

JFC...

I don't even know how you read my post and then responded what you did.

You are seriously determined to interpret all reality to fit your paradigm where you don't have autonomy over your own reality.

I mention Pete, and you focus on his real estate projects?
Not his 400K/yr blog? Not his MMM headquarters project?
Really? You think he's wasting his talents on menial labour?
Really?

I will say this again with conviction: FIRE IS NOT THE SOURCE OF YOUR PROBLEMS.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Runrooster on December 20, 2019, 05:18:31 PM
I have some things in common with OP.  I am trying to land a job in corporate America.  I have been getting interviews but nothing moved forward.  I have been told this means I need to work on my interviewing skills, so that I seem like the best candidate.

I'm a little confused, however.  How does pilot career relate to corporate life? And when he talks about lower level jobs, is that regional airlines?

Are your days currently busy with manual labor, or are they free to do volunteer work? Can you liquidate your properties and invest the money in stocks/cash? Or are you dependent on the higher level income from rent?  Why do you compare yourself to someone blowing their paychecks - presumably not saving for retirement, college, weddings, emergencies?  Do you or do you not still pinch pennies (never socializing, not ordering pizza) and if so, why can't you let up a little?  Are you FIREd at a very lean level for the 8 of you?  If you mentally can't let up, why will a paycheck change that?

How do you visualize a career in corporate America? Just well-paid or also meaningful in other ways? Cocktail party conversation rarely rests on what people do for a living - politics comes up a lot, as does investing, kids.  Do you think brain labor is less boring long-term than manual labor, or are you worried about physical demands taking their toll on you?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: MrBean on December 21, 2019, 07:07:35 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY1WoHkNGy4

I think this "When I Grow Up" tutorial will aid you in your journey. If you work hard and put in the hours, you can work hard and put in the hours!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: norajean on December 21, 2019, 07:36:46 AM
You come across here as a total crackpot and no doubt the same to interviewers. I would have no interest whatsoever in boarding an aircraft flown by someone of your mental state.

Why don’t you sell all your real estate and start a flight service which you can manage and grow and maybe fly a few times yourself.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2019, 10:41:29 AM

Thanks to this conversation  I have hired a career coach. Two years ago I took my real estate content off my resume. It left a 15 year gap in my history but the results were that I received a better response. I would have thought that I would have been mentioned but it wasn’t.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2019, 10:52:48 AM
You come across here as a total crackpot and no doubt the same to interviewers. I would have no interest whatsoever in boarding an aircraft flown by someone of your mental state.

Why don’t you sell all your real estate and start a flight service which you can manage and grow and maybe fly a few times yourself.

Thank you. I appreciate all your support. I have thought about starting my own aviation company however in my experience that would lead me back into the office. I don’t want to do that anymore. I don’t like the stress of self employment. I don't gain much satisfaction from paying myself a huge wage. It is not very fulfilling to me.

People who are employees go home after work and leave it behind. They take actual vacations and spend money as if it comes from a never ending supply. Business owners commonly don’t do those things. In a bit I am heading into work to see if the drywallers are working at the job site as they promised. My employees however are at home.

Lastly, I don’t think it is crazy to want a career. In my experience FIRE has some considerable down sides. Whenever I mention it people go nuts as if I am blasphemous. Everything has its points of discussion.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2019, 11:01:55 AM
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military.  Yes, you were unlucky in your timing.  But it's been 10 years.  There's no going back.  Get over it.  Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else. 

And most of all STOP WHINING!!!!  You have more options than 98% of people on the planet.  Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?

You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams don’t quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.

My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:

FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 21, 2019, 11:28:49 AM
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military.  Yes, you were unlucky in your timing.  But it's been 10 years.  There's no going back.  Get over it.  Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else. 

And most of all STOP WHINING!!!!  You have more options than 98% of people on the planet.  Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?

You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams don’t quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.

My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:

FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.

FIRE did absolutely none of those things.

You made decisions, you chose to live in certain ways, YOU produced the outcomes that you are experiencing.

Learn to take some responsibility.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2019, 12:04:11 PM
FIRE is a spectrum.

My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.

I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying “here is that twenty bucks I owe you”.

He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Runrooster on December 21, 2019, 01:32:11 PM
I don’t like the stress of self employment.

People who are employees go home after work and leave it behind. They take actual vacations and spend money as if it comes from a never ending supply. Business owners commonly don’t do those things.

It's not either/or.  Some employees are frugal and worry about getting laid off/sick/outsourced to China.  Some business owners trust employees to take over for a short vacation. If your personality is to work hard and be frugal, it will probably stay the same with a paycheck.  If you are truly FIRED then you can afford to spend the money in small ways at least -takeout Thai.  $6000 for a two day painting job sounds ridiculous, but I'm surprised you can't just find cheaper labor.  In many areas you can go to a local construction store (Home Depot) and get day laborers, who can at least mow lawns and paint houses.  If most of your excess work is truly menial, what about hiring your nephew?

That said, self employment does come with a different kind of stress and risk than corporate life.  Probably fewer hours, though i don't know how many properties you manage. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 21, 2019, 01:41:46 PM
FIRE is a spectrum.

My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.

I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying “here is that twenty bucks I owe you”.

He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point or how it detracts in any way from my point that FIRE itself isn't the problem. That the person who is living their life makes decisions that impact their future options.

What on earth does your 22 year old nephew knowing where to get free wifi have to do with that?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2019, 01:44:43 PM

FIRE is a culture.

I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.

Employment is also a culture.  I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.

My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career.  It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.

I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.

FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2019, 01:54:20 PM
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military.  Yes, you were unlucky in your timing.  But it's been 10 years.  There's no going back.  Get over it.  Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else. 

And most of all STOP WHINING!!!!  You have more options than 98% of people on the planet.  Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?

You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams don’t quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.

My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:

FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.

FIRE did absolutely none of those things.

You made decisions, you chose to live in certain ways, YOU produced the outcomes that you are experiencing.

Learn to take some responsibility.

I agree, however, I feel that my family FIRE tradition was a hindrance to my professional development. I did not know how to make it into one of the better corporate positions because I did not have an example to follow. FIRE gave me an out. I maintained an ever-present knowledge that I did not have to put up with the corporate America hassle that people need to endure before having a chance at a better position. I don't have to prostrate myself for the system.  I knew that I can always mow lawns or paint a house and make more money. It was a hindrance.

I was able to endure until I had a family to support. Once I was laid off I slid back into FIRE and here I am.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 21, 2019, 02:00:36 PM

FIRE is a culture.

I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.

Employment is also a culture.  I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.

My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career.  It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.

I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.

FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.

Literal and total nonsense.

FIRE is so many different cultural realities. You had one upbringing and you are painting an entire financial movement with that brush. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Tons of people in the FIRE community have meaningful professional careers.
I honestly don't even know that you have the same definition of FIRE as everyone else here does.

Okay, so you don't like your upbringing. Guess what, neither did I. I went directly against everything that my family wanted me to do. I left home as a teenager for fuck's sake.

I've already mentioned my debilitating disease that's basically ruined my career and how I've hustled to generate more opportunities. I don't see myself as a victim.

You my friend are not a fucking victim of anything.
So cut the bullshit. I know Syrian refugees who whine less about their circumstances than you do.

Stop it.
Get help.
Move on.

And seriously, stop coming back to a place where you know you are just going to get attacked for your nonsense. Either you're a a fucking troll who is completely wasting our time, or you have far more serious psychological issues than anyone here can help you with.

I hope you are a troll. For your sake, I really do.
If you aren't, then seek help.
I'm not joking, seek professional help. What you are doing on this forum is not what mentally healthy people do.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 21, 2019, 02:02:50 PM
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military.  Yes, you were unlucky in your timing.  But it's been 10 years.  There's no going back.  Get over it.  Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else. 

And most of all STOP WHINING!!!!  You have more options than 98% of people on the planet.  Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?

You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams don’t quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.

My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:

FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.

FIRE did absolutely none of those things.

You made decisions, you chose to live in certain ways, YOU produced the outcomes that you are experiencing.

Learn to take some responsibility.

I agree, however, I feel that my family FIRE tradition was a hindrance to my professional development. I did not know how to make it into one of the better corporate positions because I did not have an example to follow. FIRE gave me an out. I maintained an ever-present knowledge that I did not have to put up with the corporate America hassle that people need to endure before having a chance at a better position. I don't have to prostrate myself for the system.  I knew that I can always mow lawns or paint a house and make more money. It was a hindrance.

I was able to endure until I had a family to support. Once I was laid off I slid back into FIRE and here I am.

Yes, yes. You're a victim of having a financially independent family and becoming financially independent yourself. There was no possible way for you to have any power or autonomy over your own behaviours and life choices.

Makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 21, 2019, 02:22:17 PM
So all this is about your insecurity of feeling there is some club of elite corporate drones who went to the right universities and golf at the right clubs and you are jealous you aren’t a part of that? Aren’t you a bit old to be stressing over trying to fit into the cool kid clique at lunch? Be an adult. Figure out how to be happy with your own path and your own skills and experience. In my view that is one of the best parts of getting older: making peace with who I am and my place in the world. It is exhausting and unfulfilling to constantly be trying to be something you are not.

I agree with the advice of seeking out someone to talk to to help you. You need to find a way to accept yourself and learn to be happy.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2019, 02:37:56 PM

FIRE is a culture.

I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.

Employment is also a culture.  I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.

My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career.  It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.

I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.

FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.

Literal and total nonsense.

FIRE is so many different cultural realities. You had one upbringing and you are painting an entire financial movement with that brush. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Tons of people in the FIRE community have meaningful professional careers.
I honestly don't even know that you have the same definition of FIRE as everyone else here does.

Okay, so you don't like your upbringing. Guess what, neither did I. I went directly against everything that my family wanted me to do. I left home as a teenager for fuck's sake.

I've already mentioned my debilitating disease that's basically ruined my career and how I've hustled to generate more opportunities. I don't see myself as a victim.

You my friend are not a fucking victim of anything.
So cut the bullshit. I know Syrian refugees who whine less about their circumstances than you do.

Stop it.
Get help.
Move on.

And seriously, stop coming back to a place where you know you are just going to get attacked for your nonsense. Either you're a a fucking troll who is completely wasting our time, or you have far more serious psychological issues than anyone here can help you with.

I hope you are a troll. For your sake, I really do.
If you aren't, then seek help.
I'm not joking, seek professional help. What you are doing on this forum is not what mentally healthy people do.

I am thankful for your input and concern. I appreciate everything that you have shared in response to me. However, I do not think that wanting a meaningful career in corporate America is a mental issue. I do not feel that my challenges in changing my professional status are imaginary any more than the challenges that most people here face in regards to achieving FIRE. 

Both are trite first world subjects in comparison to what most face in the developing world. We are lucky to be having such debates when so many are merely trying to feed themselves. I agree, wholeheartedly.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 21, 2019, 02:39:51 PM

FIRE is a culture.

I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.

Employment is also a culture.  I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.

My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career.  It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.

I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.

FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.

Literal and total nonsense.

FIRE is so many different cultural realities. You had one upbringing and you are painting an entire financial movement with that brush. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Tons of people in the FIRE community have meaningful professional careers.
I honestly don't even know that you have the same definition of FIRE as everyone else here does.

Okay, so you don't like your upbringing. Guess what, neither did I. I went directly against everything that my family wanted me to do. I left home as a teenager for fuck's sake.

I've already mentioned my debilitating disease that's basically ruined my career and how I've hustled to generate more opportunities. I don't see myself as a victim.

You my friend are not a fucking victim of anything.
So cut the bullshit. I know Syrian refugees who whine less about their circumstances than you do.

Stop it.
Get help.
Move on.

And seriously, stop coming back to a place where you know you are just going to get attacked for your nonsense. Either you're a a fucking troll who is completely wasting our time, or you have far more serious psychological issues than anyone here can help you with.

I hope you are a troll. For your sake, I really do.
If you aren't, then seek help.
I'm not joking, seek professional help. What you are doing on this forum is not what mentally healthy people do.

I am thankful for your input and concern. I appreciate everything that you have shared in response to me. However, I do not think that wanting a meaningful career in corporate America is a mental issue. I do not feel that my challenges in changing my professional status are imaginary any more than the challenges that most people here face in regards to achieving FIRE. 

Both are trite first world subjects in comparison to what most face in the developing world. We are lucky to be having such debates when so many are merely trying to feed themselves. I agree, wholeheartedly.

I literally never said that.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on December 21, 2019, 02:40:11 PM
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2019, 02:42:16 PM
So all this is about your insecurity of feeling there is some club of elite corporate drones who went to the right universities and golf at the right clubs and you are jealous you aren’t a part of that? Aren’t you a bit old to be stressing over trying to fit into the cool kid clique at lunch? Be an adult. Figure out how to be happy with your own path and your own skills and experience. In my view that is one of the best parts of getting older: making peace with who I am and my place in the world. It is exhausting and unfulfilling to constantly be trying to be something you are not.

I agree with the advice of seeking out someone to talk to to help you. You need to find a way to accept yourself and learn to be happy.

Thank you for your input.

It's about experiencing an alternative approach to life. Great things can be accomplished by great organizations. I am a big fish in a small pond. If one wants a chance to walk on the moon then they need to be a joiner. They need to be prepared to stand in line. Corporate culture is one of belonging. I don't have that. In my situation, I am the organization. I wear whatever I want and go home at night over socializing to get ahead. It's a different approach to life that I may not be able to accomplish.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2019, 02:44:17 PM
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

It's possible that I have an experience that most here do not.  It is my understanding that the majority of people here are trying to achieve FIRE.  This thread is about post-fire issues. I have some.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on December 21, 2019, 02:46:20 PM
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

It's possible that I have an experience that most here do not.  It is my understanding that the majority of people here are trying to achieve FIRE.  This thread is about post-fire issues. I have some.
Sure, anything you say, troll.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Cpa Cat on December 21, 2019, 03:01:24 PM
They tried to make me accept a lower position. However, I have already been down that road and it is a dead end.

So, in reality, FIRE isn't preventing you from working in Corporate America at all. They offered you a job. It just wasn't the exact job you wanted.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

Again, the problem isn't that you're FIRE'd. It's that they don't think you're qualified for the jobs you're applying for.


You know how to get a job in Corporate America. Interview and say yes to the job offer they give you, even if it's less than you think you deserve. If it turns out you're awesome at that lower level job, they will promote you. And so proceeds a career in Corporate America.

The end.

You don't need to play golf, or be in a frat, or whatever you think Corporate Culture is. You just need to suck it up and go to work at a job that wastes your time. Just like millions of other corporate wage slaves. You had an offer to do just that. Next time, take them up on it, and live your fantasy.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: seattlecyclone on December 21, 2019, 05:06:00 PM
They tried to make me accept a lower position. However, I have already been down that road and it is a dead end.

So, in reality, FIRE isn't preventing you from working in Corporate America at all. They offered you a job. It just wasn't the exact job you wanted.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

Again, the problem isn't that you're FIRE'd. It's that they don't think you're qualified for the jobs you're applying for.


You know how to get a job in Corporate America. Interview and say yes to the job offer they give you, even if it's less than you think you deserve. If it turns out you're awesome at that lower level job, they will promote you. And so proceeds a career in Corporate America.

The end.

You don't need to play golf, or be in a frat, or whatever you think Corporate Culture is. You just need to suck it up and go to work at a job that wastes your time. Just like millions of other corporate wage slaves. You had an offer to do just that. Next time, take them up on it, and live your fantasy.

Yes, this. Your problem is that you're looking for Meaningful Work in a corporate job. Some corporate jobs exist that fall into that category, but most don't. The jobs you're going to qualify for, today, given your stated experience are not going to be the jobs you seem to be seeking. You have to put up with the BS of those jobs for some time (and excel at them) before you become eligible for the cool stuff. If you're FI it can be very hard to go into work every day at a job you might not think is worth your time, earning money you don't need, putting a smile on your face and pretending your job is awesome, waiting months or years for the right opportunity to present itself. But if you want to climb the corporate ladder you don't get to just skip half the rungs.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: friedmmj on December 21, 2019, 06:04:40 PM
The OP is the text book definition of a troll.  He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: life_travel on December 21, 2019, 07:29:21 PM
Trolling or not, not sure OP really understand what FIRE is.
If you HAVE to work ,especially menial labour jobs, you are not financially independent.
OP, you have employees so it means you work, you just don't like your work and want to go back to your old industry.
If by your definition ,you live in constant self deprivation,  if you don't eat out, etc - you are not FI.
So you are actually not FIRE ! Maybe it will help you psychologically to realise that , and start another career.

If you are truely FI, can you sell all the houses, have enough passive income coming in , buy your own plane and start some sort of business based on flying ??
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: imolina on December 21, 2019, 09:37:53 PM
My parents had rental properties while growing up. My dad and mom worked only till I was about 3 years old then FIRED with rental properties, so I never saw them "working", too young to remember. I am an Engineer as so are my siblings working on corporate jobs, so our upbringing did not influence us not to follow a career. My dad was always a big supporter of education and following a career, but he did not have that opportunity while growing up, my mother only finished primary school. My sister does real state with her husband as extra income, but has a full time job as project engineer.
Our family FIRE tradition was NOT a hindrance to my or my siblings professional development.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: infromsea on December 22, 2019, 01:26:04 PM
The OP is the text book definition of a troll.  He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!

You could be right.

OR, it could also be that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone AND some of us are so enamored with the concepts/philosophy that we are unwilling to consider other points of view?

I could 100% be wrong here but the OP seems fairly rational to me (having read through many of their other posts) AND they are not suggesting that FIRE is "wrong" or "Broken" or a bad idea for all. I for one appreciate the conversation AND the back and forth. If nothing else, it is an exercise in how to "talk fire" or share the concepts with others and work to "see the logical fallacies" in the POV of another.

We should remember that creative criticism has value (at least it does for me, I'm not so enamored with ANYTHING that I can't be shown the flaws in it). I for one choose not to engage in ideological zealotry to the point that anyone who disagrees with me/my POV is wrong/flawed/a troll... BUT, I could be wrong! :)

Richard Feynman. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself – and you are the easiest person to fool.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: sui generis on December 22, 2019, 02:18:54 PM
The OP is the text book definition of a troll.  He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!

You could be right.

OR, it could also be that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone AND some of us are so enamored with the concepts/philosophy that we are unwilling to consider other points of view?

They could be right about him being a troll AND it's true that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone.

I could 100% be wrong here but the OP seems fairly rational to me (having read through many of their other posts) AND they are not suggesting that FIRE is "wrong" or "Broken" or a bad idea for all. I for one appreciate the conversation AND the back and forth. If nothing else, it is an exercise in how to "talk fire" or share the concepts with others and work to "see the logical fallacies" in the POV of another.


Yeah, I do think you are...well, I won't say 100% wrong, but the OP has repeatedly made blanket statements about how bad FIRE is (rather than how it has fostered bad habits for him personally) and actually keeps bizarrely blaming FIRE for things that no one by any stretch of the imagination could blame FIRE for.  He isn't here to engage in a genuine conversation about how the movement should avoid hubris and consider self-examination and reflection in certain areas.  He's possibly just trolling and, whether genuine or not, just repeatedly whines about his personal situation and how abused he has been by it, lamenting his ability to do anything about it.  He  responds only to people that post suggestions with which he can disagree while ignoring all the rest that post genuinely good advice and/or thoughtful critiques or discussion.  This is absolutely not about how to improve or reform the FIRE movement, but about misplaced blame for his personal situation.

Almost no one (I hesitate to be absolute without a careful review of all posts, but my memory is that no one) has come at him with ideological zealotry.  Rather people have made many, many good suggestions about how he can end his failed FIRE attempt and, more broadly, pursue happiness in a number of ways, from those he claims to want to pursue, to possible avenues he has not yet considered.  Some (including myself) have protested that he has painted too broad a brush about FIRE when he claims it is meaningless and actually in some ways bad for human beings to pursue by sharing some information about how in can be meaningful and valuable and/or has been for us personally.  Yet that has not stopped him from continuing on with blaming FIRE for all his woes and insinuating that that means it's bad for everyone.  His topics have literally been the opposite of the FIRE proponents being ideologically zealous, with everyone at first attempting to be genuinely helpful, creative and thoughtful, and him only repeating the same claims and woe ad nauseam. 

I hate to add even another post to his threads to keep them alive and continue giving him attention, but I just can't let it be said that the other posters here are the ideological zealous ones while he is just stoking thoughtful discussion.  I could not disagree more and really see only the opposite in his various threads.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: infromsea on December 22, 2019, 04:38:58 PM
The OP is the text book definition of a troll.  He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!

You could be right.

OR, it could also be that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone AND some of us are so enamored with the concepts/philosophy that we are unwilling to consider other points of view?

They could be right about him being a troll AND it's true that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone.

I could 100% be wrong here but the OP seems fairly rational to me (having read through many of their other posts) AND they are not suggesting that FIRE is "wrong" or "Broken" or a bad idea for all. I for one appreciate the conversation AND the back and forth. If nothing else, it is an exercise in how to "talk fire" or share the concepts with others and work to "see the logical fallacies" in the POV of another.


Yeah, I do think you are...well, I won't say 100% wrong, but the OP has repeatedly made blanket statements about how bad FIRE is (rather than how it has fostered bad habits for him personally) and actually keeps bizarrely blaming FIRE for things that no one by any stretch of the imagination could blame FIRE for.  He isn't here to engage in a genuine conversation about how the movement should avoid hubris and consider self-examination and reflection in certain areas.  He's possibly just trolling and, whether genuine or not, just repeatedly whines about his personal situation and how abused he has been by it, lamenting his ability to do anything about it.  He  responds only to people that post suggestions with which he can disagree while ignoring all the rest that post genuinely good advice and/or thoughtful critiques or discussion.  This is absolutely not about how to improve or reform the FIRE movement, but about misplaced blame for his personal situation.

Almost no one (I hesitate to be absolute without a careful review of all posts, but my memory is that no one) has come at him with ideological zealotry.  Rather people have made many, many good suggestions about how he can end his failed FIRE attempt and, more broadly, pursue happiness in a number of ways, from those he claims to want to pursue, to possible avenues he has not yet considered.  Some (including myself) have protested that he has painted too broad a brush about FIRE when he claims it is meaningless and actually in some ways bad for human beings to pursue by sharing some information about how in can be meaningful and valuable and/or has been for us personally.  Yet that has not stopped him from continuing on with blaming FIRE for all his woes and insinuating that that means it's bad for everyone.  His topics have literally been the opposite of the FIRE proponents being ideologically zealous, with everyone at first attempting to be genuinely helpful, creative and thoughtful, and him only repeating the same claims and woe ad nauseam. 

I hate to add even another post to his threads to keep them alive and continue giving him attention, but I just can't let it be said that the other posters here are the ideological zealous ones while he is just stoking thoughtful discussion.  I could not disagree more and really see only the opposite in his various threads.

Well said!

I don't have a single retort of value as I have many of the same criticisms of the OP's responses/posts etc.

I am keeping an open mind that the OP isn't a troll, that they honestly think it would be better to be "back inside the matrix" and I am not judging them for that. I guess I'm just a little more patient in my old age...
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: APowers on December 22, 2019, 08:57:30 PM
This thread. Oh my.

Update: I just took a look at Pete's blog and it seems like he does a lot of the same things. I build/remodel and manage real estate. My kids did not even know that pizza could be delivered until recently. We never go out to eat, no TV, and live a financially deprived life. Our cars are old. It's the only life I have known. Am I missing something?

On the upside: Most everything I work on is something that I own. I live where I want and largely how I want. My kids grew up without going to daycare. Since being laid off I have slept in my own bed and am not forced to travel much. I go to sleep when I am tired and get up when rested (unless the kids have school). I never get stuck in traffic jams. I am the master of my days. All it took in trade were my professional dreams and that bothers me at times.

The contradictions. What even? You live where and how you want, but you live a financially deprived life?....You *want* to live a deprived life? Dude. No-one who describes their life as "deprived" is living the way they want to. Go back to work and spend money endlessly like a carefree employee, if that's what you want. Get help. Do something.

*snip*

However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.

It seems like you characterize a majority of FIRE philosophy as some kind of low-income scrimping and near-homelessness financial deprivation. Is that how you're living? Should we call someone to check on you?

There are 33,007 registered members on this forum. Let's assume that only 5% actually post relatively regularly. That's 1,650 people. Do you know how many of us are working at this from a low-income/lean-FIRE angle? According to this poll (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/throw-down-the-gauntlet/race-to-100-fi-(only-if-below-median-household-income!!!)/), only about 55. FIFTY. FIVE. What do you think the other 1,600 people are doing? Trying to somehow contain their exploding volcanoes of cash, is what. I don't believe for a second that a lot of what is discussed here is about the virtues of accepting an extremely low standard of living. The vast majority of people here, both pre-FIRE and post-FIRE are doing very well for themselves and intend to continue doing so.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: BFGirl on December 23, 2019, 02:10:37 PM
OP.  Can you rebrand yourself as a consultant in some area of expertise valued by corporate entities?  Can you take on some freelance type work?  If you can impress a client, maybe that will get your foot in the door to a full time job.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: bacchi on December 24, 2019, 02:33:33 PM
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: dougules on December 26, 2019, 01:04:04 PM
I am thankful for your input and concern. I appreciate everything that you have shared in response to me. However, I do not think that wanting a meaningful career in corporate America is a mental issue. I do not feel that my challenges in changing my professional status are imaginary any more than the challenges that most people here face in regards to achieving FIRE. 

Both are trite first world subjects in comparison to what most face in the developing world. We are lucky to be having such debates when so many are merely trying to feed themselves. I agree, wholeheartedly.

I really recommend going to see a doctor or a therapist for your mental health.  Wanting to be in a meaningful career isn't at all a bad thing.  It's your writing style that sounds like somebody who is struggling against a mood disorder.  I'm not trying to be mean.  I would write the same thing if you were hinting at potential symptoms of cancer or diabetes.

If you're struggling with a mood disorder, it will make it very difficult to do well in an interview or network to get a job.  If you get your health under control it will make it much easier. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 28, 2019, 11:22:57 AM
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...
He's been on here since 2014 and it seems most of the threads he started were in the same vain as this one so he probably isn't doing the same under another user name. The only thing I find strange is his new anti-FIRE threads also pop up about the same time the Financial Samari puts out a new anti-FIRE blog post. Hmmm....???

Anyways I think if hasn't found what he wants after almost 6 years its probably not going to happen and time to let go of the angst and enjoy his life.

The job market has opened up since I started here. Since then I have been trying to achieve the career objective that has been underway for a very long time now. I very much understand the wisdom of “giving up” and wish I could do that. One of my points here is that I am not interested in more retirement life.

I may not achieve my goal but the effort has value. Apart from my professional dreams I have several other issues with FIRE. I don’t think it is healthy for children to grow up with idle FIRE parents. It is important for them to see me struggle and try. It is unwise to provide an example of self indulgence to kids. Everyone needs to have something they contribute to life that is meaningful. People who are able too achieve FIRE tend to be intelligent, well-educated, and goal oriented. How does it serve the individual to cease their vital work function, or worse, to demote oneself to that of a manual laborer? 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 28, 2019, 11:57:44 AM
There are some very real consequences to achieving FIRE

I have a friend who was able to achieve FIRE at a very young age thanks to a successful retail venture. He grew his business to a point where he was able to sell it and live off his real estate investments and small fortune. As a result he now spends his days doing whatever he wants while his peers and siblings are still in the early stages of their careers.

He has been retired for two years now and melancholy is setting in. During the holidays everyone likes to share life events from the previous year. My FIRE buddy can share his Xbox accomplishments. Work events are a big part of ones life. It is easy to imagine how our lives would be different in FIRE. We all have great plans to climb mountains, write books, or volunteer for Doctors Without Borders. It is all great but that enthusiasm usually dims fairly quickly until you end up spending the day on the couch.

FIRE takes a toll on ones ego and relationships. We are not meant to burn our days in self-indulgent pursuits. Humans are notoriously efficient. Take away the quest for fire (pun intended) and we tend to sit down. We shouldn’t ever stop working at our peak abilities but it would be nice to be able to work less. I am a long time veteran of FIRE and have been through all the stages to find myself back at the beginning.

My aim is to go back to work in the capacity that I aspired to as a younger person. I already work two jobs in my field. It is incredibly satisfying to receive a paycheck again. I am making progress towards my professional aspiration, and may not reach it, but I am glad to be back in the flow of life again.
Title: Post FIRE self sabotage
Post by: Skyhigh on December 28, 2019, 12:21:26 PM


Another issue to be aware of is self-sabotage post FIRE.

FIRE can lead to depression, social isolation, and a loss of self esteem. People tend to be un-able to consciously recognize the source of their malaise and the sub-conscious takes over to financially sabotage ones FIRE status so that they have to go back to work. I have seen it happen many times. I am always on the look out for financial FIRE sabotage myself.

Boredom can also lead to financial self-sabotage. I have seen plenty of others blow their financial accomplishments on horses, sailboats, and airplanes because they couldn’t fill their time with meaningful accomplishments.

Increased risk taking can lead to financial FIRE sabotage. It seems that the longer one is in FIRE the more they are willing to accept risk and can expose themselves to disaster. It could be from boredom, over confidence, or a subconscious attempt to self destruct. I can’t explain it but it seems to happen a lot.

Relationship self destruction is another means of FIRE destruction. Sometimes a couple is ready to separate however the carefully created FIRE system is dependent upon both parties. One of the two can subconsciously destroy that which is holding them together in an attempt to get out. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on December 28, 2019, 01:15:47 PM
Maybe your head is the problem and not FIRE.  I don't see scores of others who have FIREd making the same complaints as you. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 28, 2019, 02:08:22 PM
I agree with you that sitting around all day doing nothing productive will be a bad role model for your kids and lead to depression and loneliness. I think the reason you are getting so much pushback here is because that seems to be your vision of FIRE while that is pretty much the opposite of what the rest of us think FIRE is/will be. MMM himself isn’t sitting around on his ass and he isn’t advocating anyone else do either.

There are a thousand ways to be productive and useful and learn and be interesting and social and a good role model and make the world (or just your tiny corner of the world) a better place that Does Not involve paid professional corporate work.

As an aside, I think your slam on manual laborers is fairly insulting. You really think the person repairing your utility pole or fixing your water pipe isn’t doing something worthwhile?

The rest of us look forward to FIRE as a chance to finally devote time and energy to the things that we find meaningful in life without work getting in t he way. For those rarer birds for whom work is the most meaningful thing out there, more power to you. Keep on keeping on. But that isn’t most of us.

I hope you find what you look for. I am pretty sure that even if you did find the amazing corporate job you would soon find that it doesn’t fill the hole in your life either, but maybe I am wrong.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 29, 2019, 07:08:39 AM
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...
He's been on here since 2014 and it seems most of the threads he started were in the same vain as this one so he probably isn't doing the same under another user name. The only thing I find strange is his new anti-FIRE threads also pop up about the same time the Financial Samari puts out a new anti-FIRE blog post. Hmmm....???

Anyways I think if hasn't found what he wants after almost 6 years its probably not going to happen and time to let go of the angst and enjoy his life.

The job market has opened up since I started here. Since then I have been trying to achieve the career objective that has been underway for a very long time now. I very much understand the wisdom of “giving up” and wish I could do that. One of my points here is that I am not interested in more retirement life.

I may not achieve my goal but the effort has value. Apart from my professional dreams I have several other issues with FIRE. I don’t think it is healthy for children to grow up with idle FIRE parents. It is important for them to see me struggle and try. It is unwise to provide an example of self indulgence to kids. Everyone needs to have something they contribute to life that is meaningful. People who are able too achieve FIRE tend to be intelligent, well-educated, and goal oriented. How does it serve the individual to cease their vital work function, or worse, to demote oneself to that of a manual laborer?
I won't go into you personal beliefs on FIRE as they vastly differ from my personal experiences and those of most FIREd people I know.

Just want to comment that "letting go of the angst" about your job situation is very different from "giving up". If it is that important to you then continue to search for what you want. That doesn't mean you need to wrap your whole being into your search.and stress about it to the point you are. Enjoy what you have attained already and follow your dreams with a more relaxed attitude. Yout seem to be utterly miserable and that's just no way to live.

Yep.

You seem to just want to double down on the whole hating your life and blaming it on what you think FIRE is.

That's no way to live.
Title: Re: Post FIRE self sabotage
Post by: DaMa on December 29, 2019, 09:33:15 AM


Another issue to be aware of is self-sabotage post FIRE.

FIRE can lead to depression, social isolation, and a loss of self esteem. People tend to be un-able to consciously recognize the source of their malaise and the sub-conscious takes over to financially sabotage ones FIRE status so that they have to go back to work. I have seen it happen many times. I am always on the look out for financial FIRE sabotage myself.

Boredom can also lead to financial self-sabotage. I have seen plenty of others blow their financial accomplishments on horses, sailboats, and airplanes because they couldn’t fill their time with meaningful accomplishments.

Increased risk taking can lead to financial FIRE sabotage. It seems that the longer one is in FIRE the more they are willing to accept risk and can expose themselves to disaster. It could be from boredom, over confidence, or a subconscious attempt to self destruct. I can’t explain it but it seems to happen a lot.

Relationship self destruction is another means of FIRE destruction. Sometimes a couple is ready to separate however the carefully created FIRE system is dependent upon both parties. One of the two can subconsciously destroy that which is holding them together in an attempt to get out.

I gotta say, I found all this to be true of WORKING in CORPORATE America.  FIre was a large part of my cure. 

Toxic work environment can lead to depression, social isolation, and a loss of self esteem.
Boredom or lack of fulfillment AT WORK can also lead to financial self-sabotage.  (Retail therapy, expensive vacations, etc.)
Sometimes a couple is ready to separate however the MORTGAGE is dependent upon both parties.

What you attribute to FIRE, many of us can attribute to stressful corporate jobs.

If you have a break in employment, even a short one, you are immediately suspect.  I would be looking for any sign of emotionally instability.  If I picked up on any of this in an interview, I wouldn't hire you.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 30, 2019, 11:19:07 AM

It is possible that I have a different perspective since I was forced into FIRE by an underperforming career.

Until 2015 my last paycheck was in 2002. In 2015 I started back to work in a supporting role part-time. I was forced into FIRE against my will at a young age. Thanks to FIRE I did not have to take the crummy jobs that others had to in order to work my way back in. I did not have to live in an urban setting where more opportunities exist. As a result of FIRE, I removed myself from the stream of life and ducked all the awfulness that comes during difficult economic times and raised my family in peace. A consequence of that was the death of my professional dreams. There is a price to FIRE that many here may not have experienced. If I didn't have a family to consider I would have remained in the path of opportunity until I achieved my goals. FIRE made it so that I did not have to do that. FIRE is a reason why my professional dreams failed to materialize.

Another issue I believe is that FIRE is Financial Independence Retire Early.  I don't know many of those who are commenting here but I get the feeling that you are well past 35. Being retired at 55 is socially acceptable. Being retired at 25 or 35 is very much not. I also do not know what your FIRE status is. Many here are still trying to achieve FIRE. Living FIRE as a younger person is a different experience than when one is retired and past a meaningful career. As previously mentioned, a career is an important component of one's ego. I have spent most of my adult life in FIRE and to me it feels like a wasted life. My FIRE peers are similar to me. I have witnessed the consequences of FIRE manifest itself many times. At first, it is a dream. A few years in and it is boring. A few years after that and it can really blow.

Everyone here knows my situation and story. I am at the disadvantage in that I know very little about you. Others here have asked me to qualify my remarks and I have to the best of my ability. Consider yourself at a dinner party at 32 and someone asks your profession and you tell them that you are retired or are self-employed. It is lonely. It lacks satisfaction. It does not seem to be the best use of one's natural abilities. FIRE makes it difficult to establish new relationships.  It is not the best example for children to grow up with. It makes it difficult to develop new friendships. Days off lose their meaning. I don't ever intend to retire.

On the upside of FIRE: I live under my own direction and am not the slave to any situation. Since FIRE our children have never known daycare, a baby sitter, or a day without both their parents. We live where and how we want. We have pursued hobbies until we became sick of them. All that is cool.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on December 30, 2019, 11:38:54 AM
Stop blaming FIRE and start blaming yourself.  You are responsible for your own life.  Your victim card is hereby revoked.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 30, 2019, 12:58:10 PM
Agree. Go do something meaningful with your life. It doesn’t have to be paid corporate work.

I’m 37 and have reached FI. I feel I checked the box for corporate professional career. I’m glad I had that chance, but there are more meaningful things out there in life that await and I’m looking forward to exploring that space. Maybe you can’t take our word for it but you really aren’t missing that much.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 30, 2019, 01:10:19 PM
You seem to think that if you just repeat yourself enough times, in enough ways, that eventually we will all understand your point and we'll finally see what you've been trying to say all along.

Well, we see it, we've seen it from the very beginning. Your points are extremely clear, and rather passionately stated.

We disagree with you anyway.
We will always disagree with you.
No one here will ever see you as a victim of being financially independent. Period.

You will never get the sympathy or validation that you seek, and by coming back over and over for the exact same criticism and rejection, I can't fathom what that's doing to your poor psyche.

Stop this.
It is NOT healthy.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: bluecollarmusician on December 31, 2019, 11:36:15 AM
This is a funny sort of thread... caught my eye- and I read through it.

@Skyhigh this really does read as if you are a brilliant troll... which I don't think you are, but just so you know- to an unbiased 3rd party stepping in, your argument seems a little unfocused.   

But I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY AGREE WITH YOU!! FIRE is certainly no silver bullet to meet all your social/personal/live dreams/goals.  Really all financial freedom can do is give you exactly that- freedom to pursue what you wish without (or with less concern) about the financial viability.  It sounds like for you it has been golden handcuffs... like many people I knew in the military who hate it, and bitch and moan all day every day but are way to scared to do anything different... so they stay until 20 and then immediately get a GS position and continue to hate it forever.  (*hint, the problem isn't the job.... it's those people.). Incidentally- I think *many if not most* could care less about RE... in most cases it just doesn't apply- few plan to never earn another dollar.  Most want freedom to leave a job they are very unhappy in- and FI allows them to do it. (Incidentally- you sound just like that btw- when you talk of golden handcuffs... that's what people tend think about their high dollar jobs.  Weird?  If you are RE I don't understand how you are handcuffed to it?  It sounds more like you are self-employed in a field you don't enjoy.) Don't know why you are hung up on that?  Or maybe you are just warning people that RE isn't all it's cracked up to be?  Maybe you thought it would be awesome?   In any event- if you don't like it, don't do it!!!

A couple of thoughts- (and I don't post often around here!!)

1) FIRE didn't ruin your career or prevent you pursuing it- you made a different choice, you went a different route.  Other people dug into the trenches, and my guess is those are the people you are competing with for the jobs now.  They dug into the suck and are now better positioned for the jobs you want. Whether you chose to do was for your family, or to avoid other perceived unpleasantness.... basically, you made a choice.  It's cool.  No biggie- you can't do EVERYTHING... you had to make some tough choices and you did.  The world is littered with people who wanted to play 2nd base in the majors, or be a rock star opening for Billy Joel (both the dreams I WANTED to chase...) When those things didn't work out, guess what- people move on and do something different.  You wanted a job in a competitive and highly selective industry...it didn't happen for you and so you went a different direction. 

2) If you don't like doing bike rides and gardening, so what?  If you want a job, go get one.  Want to do something meaningful?  Go do it.  Nothing stopping you.  Being a corporate drone isn't doing something meaningful.  Just want to make money?  Plenty of jobs will let you do that.  If you can't because your life is too comfortable, or your family doesn't want you to do something different... err.... well... sorry, that's different situation.

 

3) The grass is always greener- you express concern over if something happens to your business/income you have no backup... most people in a job have no back-up either, and no control over when or how their employment will cease... sure it's great to collect that fat paycheck and not worry about the big  picture... that's what everyone Enron thought right up until the scandal broke- or the 10 million people who found themselves without jobs in 2007-2009.  You yourself were a victim (apparently) of job loss.

4) Incidentally how were you "Forced" into FIRE?  Sounds like a pretty clear choice to me... like you chose to go that route... is there a reason you couldn't have transitioned to another field?  I have reinvented myself plenty of times.... because it's hard to make a living as a musician... I have made far more money in RE and investing than I ever have from being a musician- but that is still what I consider my vocation.

FIRE is not panacea- I don't think many argue that it is.  In your case you seem to be blaming it... but you seem to cite is as the only other possible option to the one job you wanted.  Sorry, buddy- there are plenty of people who don't get their dream job.  I don't think anyone would have sympathy if you came on here and said " I always wanted to be a rock star, but it was really difficult to get a break, so I went and became FIRE because I had to, and now I can't seem to get a job opening for Taylor Swift... they only want to offer me small clubs...I don't want to play small clubs because it is hard work and it suck, and isn't what I want. Basically, FIRE is to blame for this."  Some industries are tough.  They just are.  If you love what you do- then find a way to do it.  If you won't ever have your dream job- that sucks... but that's just how it goes sometimes. FIRE isn't your problem, for sure.  And if you want something- it sounds like you are a capable business builder- pursue something else.

There is no secret code (or handshake or special way of talking) that you alluded to in an earlier post.  It's about putting in the time, and being ready for your big break.  If you love to fly, then make it happen- it might take risks that you are unwilling to take.  Acknowledge that- you are where you are because of what you CHOSE.   If you aren't doing what you want... then do something different.  If you aren't where you want to be go somewhere else.  FIRE isn't the be all end all.  Nothing is. But I humbly submit it isn't your problem. 

Good luck, friend.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: blue_green_sparks on December 31, 2019, 11:59:09 AM
Yeah, being a middle manager in corporate America was great. After someone stormed out or got fired I would hide a hammer under my desk for my 2nd story window and tie a rope to my desk so I could escape. When a female would close the door to my office I would kindly ask her to keep it open. I would give my best estimate and schedule and have them cut in half and then get chewed out when late or over. Needed 69 passwords and had to change them every few weeks. The direction from the top was a pendulum.....for example 100% customer focus one week and then 6 months later be tougher on the customer...There are those magic moments when it does all come together but the mental, physical, and emotional cost is high. The movie "Office Space" is a documentary really.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Runrooster on December 31, 2019, 04:22:16 PM
I agree with you that sitting around all day doing nothing productive will be a bad role model for your kids and lead to depression and loneliness.

What strikes me about SkyHigh is that he's completely discounting the value of his being a SAH Dad.  If he thinks FIRE is bad, what is his opinion of the SAHM/D in the world who have no exciting corporate stories to tell?  If they're supporting a functioning family through lots of manual labor and driving, is this a bad role model and meaningless?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: bluecollarmusician on December 31, 2019, 05:44:44 PM
He isn't devaluing... He just wanted to do something else.  Nothing wrong with that...
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 31, 2019, 07:02:49 PM
He isn't devaluing... He just wanted to do something else.  Nothing wrong with that...
Actually he has spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince us that FIRE is the root of many evils. It is his sweeping generalizations to other people that has led to many of us pushing back so much. If his observations were limited to his own experience with FIRE then I don’t think any of us would have a problem with it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on January 01, 2020, 06:47:38 PM
He isn't devaluing... He just wanted to do something else.  Nothing wrong with that...

Everybody is fine with the "do something else" part.  In order to the prestigious corporate job the OP wants, he needs to do some combination of the following things:

--Take crap jobs in his industry and work his way up

--Improve his training/education level

--Volunteer/network to improve his social/business connections

And probably a few other things as well. 

The OP has stated he flat refuses to do anything that will improve his employment prospects.    He wants a plumb corporate job handed to him without having the requisite qualifications or track record of success.   Not going to happen. No easy way to break that to him.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on January 01, 2020, 07:30:09 PM
So what *are* you willing to do to get this corporate job you want? 

It seems to me like you don't want to do anything hard; you just want to magically have that job.  Yet instead of realizing that the reason you have very little chance of getting that job is that you aren't willing to do the things it takes for most people to get that type of position, you blame culture, your parents, and FIRE. 

Maybe if mommy and daddy are old/older money and have c-suite jobs, the hard work isn't necessary.  But that doesn't apply to 98% of the US population.  The rest of us start at lower jobs, or by volunteering, and hustle on weekends to earn a certification or learn a new skill.  And we still get passed over for promotions several times before hopefully getting them, and then the hustle just refocuses. 

My dad retired from a C-level job.  He got it by joining the air force doing something shitty, they something less shitty, then getting a masters degree, then doing more jobs, then leaving the air force and getting a civilian job, and kicking ass there and getting promoted a couple times. 

That's probably a fairly typical path to corporate success.  But you seem unwilling to do the first 90% of that.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: MoMoneyFewerProblems on January 02, 2020, 10:09:30 AM
This is 100% a you problem; both your lack of enjoyment of life and inability to land a job. Once you've secured an interview (Assuming it's with the department looking to hire, not HR, or at least not primarily HR) your resume is irrelevant. Get a book on interviewing in your chosen field. Improve you. You might well be coming off as smug in your interviews. If you are as "accomplished" and "highly experienced" as you claim to be, it's almost certainly a fit issue. You need to convince those interviewing not only that you are qualified for the job, but that they will enjoy working with you. Similarly, early retirement, and "regular" retirement for that matter, doesn't need to be self indulgent. It's awful for some, and a whole new opportunity for others. Those that are unhealthy in retirement probably weren't very healthy while working, it was just far easier to hide behind the mask of their daily grind. This is totally an issue with your personal actions and outlook. Frankly, I don't see any indication that you will be any happier as a "corporate slave" than you are now based on your comments and interactions here. It seems you are looking outward for happiness, when your should be looking inward.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: MoMoneyFewerProblems on January 02, 2020, 10:17:14 AM
FIRE is a spectrum.

My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.

I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying “here is that twenty bucks I owe you”.

He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point or how it detracts in any way from my point that FIRE itself isn't the problem. That the person who is living their life makes decisions that impact their future options.

What on earth does your 22 year old nephew knowing where to get free wifi have to do with that?
His 22 year old nephew seems to be what he likes to call "FIRE" because he can skateboard and live in his van mooching off the library's public wifi and "public" outlets (Not so sure it's "public" if you have to specify "unguarded") without needing to hold down a job. Anybody that has a paid for van and is okay with spending $20 per week on food can do this. I suspect what his nephew considers "FIRE" most casual onlookers would call "homeless." Most retirees don't have to worry about being "bothered" by the police at night. If we got a true snapshot of his financial situation, I suspect very few here would regard him as anything related to FIRE. Rather, he simply chooses not to work and lives in a van.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: dougules on January 02, 2020, 10:28:45 AM
Why do you hold corporate jobs in such high regard?  Honestly it makes you sound a little troll-ish.  Some corporate jobs really do give a sense of purpose, but helping MegaCorps turn out more cheap plastic trinkets isn't a very good source of meaning and satisfaction.

There are no end of good causes that can give a person purpose that just can't afford to pay someone enough to live.  Anybody that's lost in FIRE and searching for meaning or companionship could volunteer at an animal rescue, tutor disadvantaged kids, cook at a soup kitchen, fight invasive species, run for a local political office, visit the elderly in nursing homes, help immigrants learn English, pick up litter, build wheelchair ramps.  There's no end to it.   

Honestly it sounds like you're worried about social status.  You don't need a big paycheck for that.  You need therapy and a different circle of friends.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Eowyn_MI on January 03, 2020, 12:04:16 PM
So what *are* you willing to do to get this corporate job you want? 

It seems to me like you don't want to do anything hard; you just want to magically have that job.  Yet instead of realizing that the reason you have very little chance of getting that job is that you aren't willing to do the things it takes for most people to get that type of position, you blame culture, your parents, and FIRE. 

This is an important point.  @Skyhigh, if you want a corporate job then you need to be willing to do what everyone else does in order to get one.  I went to college, studied hard, got good grades in a highly marketable field (mechanical engineering) and then got hired into one of those nice corporate 9-5 jobs that you seem to want so bad.

Do you have a highly marketable college degree (i.e. something that is in demand by the corporate employers that you want to work for)?  If not, go back to college and get another degree.  If nothing else, it proves that you are willing to work towards what you say you want.  After you have a marketable degree then you have to keep applying to companies and going on interviews until someone gives you a job.

As a side note, you are not too old to go back to college.  My grandmother earned a college degree by going to night school while raising 4 school-aged children and working full time.  It was hard on the kids (especially my mother since she was the only girl) but it was worth it for my grandmother so she got it done.

People do all this work because they absolutely need a job in order to live.  You have a choice.  If you don't want to put in the necessary work to get to a corporate job then put that effort into figuring out some way to enjoy your FIREd life.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Simpli-Fi on January 05, 2020, 06:02:21 AM
FIRE is a spectrum.

My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.

I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying “here is that twenty bucks I owe you”.

He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point or how it detracts in any way from my point that FIRE itself isn't the problem. That the person who is living their life makes decisions that impact their future options.

What on earth does your 22 year old nephew knowing where to get free wifi have to do with that?
His 22 year old nephew seems to be what he likes to call "FIRE" because he can skateboard and live in his van mooching off the library's public wifi and "public" outlets (Not so sure it's "public" if you have to specify "unguarded") without needing to hold down a job. Anybody that has a paid for van and is okay with spending $20 per week on food can do this. I suspect what his nephew considers "FIRE" most casual onlookers would call "homeless." Most retirees don't have to worry about being "bothered" by the police at night. If we got a true snapshot of his financial situation, I suspect very few here would regard him as anything related to FIRE. Rather, he simply chooses not to work and lives in a van.
This is what nailed the troll for me.  If you think this is FIRE, find a different forum to seek employment
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 13, 2021, 08:33:55 AM

Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.

I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.

Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: dougules on December 13, 2021, 10:21:22 AM
Can you genuinely say you’re happy with your life as it stands now?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 13, 2021, 10:24:07 AM

Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.

I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.

Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.

This is patently false.

It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 13, 2021, 10:39:55 AM
Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.

Then go live them, bro. Instead, you're coming back to this thread a year later? Go forth!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 13, 2021, 10:42:23 AM
Can you genuinely say you’re happy with your life as it stands now?

I just think that there is a lot that is not right with the concept of early retirement. My dream was to have a fulfilling career and ended up achieving FIRE at a young age. As I am now aging beyond the ability to have a career the opportunity cost is making itself more apparent.

I am very thankful to have reached a financial status to afford to provide a life for my family in a manner that I am proud of, but lament missing out on professional accomplishments and dreams. Who we are and what we do in this life is important. The example we provide to our children sets an expectation for them to follow. Sitting around pursuing self-indulgent activities loses its charm in my experience.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 13, 2021, 10:45:05 AM

Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.

I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.

Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.

This is patently false.

It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.

Thanks!   I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 13, 2021, 10:54:10 AM
What are professional accolades? An award, a promotion, a large bonus? Or something else?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 13, 2021, 10:59:58 AM

Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.

I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.

Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.

This is patently false.

It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.

Thanks!   I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.

Well yes, people who aren't fulfilled in their working lives are unlikely to feel fulfilled in retirement, no matter what age they retire. But it's not a function of retiring, it's a function of never figuring out how to live a fulfilling life.

Which is a common issue.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 13, 2021, 11:02:05 AM
What are professional accolades? An award, a promotion, a large bonus? Or something else?

Achieving some sort of personal and public level of accomplishment before FIRE. Becoming satisfied with your work-life abilities prior to dropping out. Some careers have benchmarks that people consider to be evidence of professional success. I feel it is important prior to FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 13, 2021, 11:04:09 AM

Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.

I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.

Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.

This is patently false.

It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.

Thanks!   I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.

Well yes, people who aren't fulfilled in their working lives are unlikely to feel fulfilled in retirement, no matter what age they retire. But it's not a function of retiring, it's a function of never figuring out how to live a fulfilling life.

Which is a common issue.

Most people need to be involved with the stream of life and don't realize what will be lost by abandoning their purpose. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 13, 2021, 11:43:57 AM

Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.

I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.

Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.

This is patently false.

It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.

Thanks!   I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.

Well yes, people who aren't fulfilled in their working lives are unlikely to feel fulfilled in retirement, no matter what age they retire. But it's not a function of retiring, it's a function of never figuring out how to live a fulfilling life.

Which is a common issue.

Most people need to be involved with the stream of life and don't realize what will be lost by abandoning their purpose.

Likewise many of us transition seamlessly into new purpose in retirement. I personally naturally seek out challenges and projects, no matter what external forces there are in my life

But that's kind of my point. People who find a lot of meaning and seek out purpose in life tend to succeed at feeling satisfied and fulfilled, whether doing paid work or not.

Needing to work for money isn't what gives people a sense of purpose.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 13, 2021, 12:02:40 PM

Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.

I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.

Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.

This is patently false.

It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.

Thanks!   I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.

Well yes, people who aren't fulfilled in their working lives are unlikely to feel fulfilled in retirement, no matter what age they retire. But it's not a function of retiring, it's a function of never figuring out how to live a fulfilling life.

Which is a common issue.

Most people need to be involved with the stream of life and don't realize what will be lost by abandoning their purpose.

Likewise many of us transition seamlessly into new purpose in retirement. I personally naturally seek out challenges and projects, no matter what external forces there are in my life

But that's kind of my point. People who find a lot of meaning and seek out purpose in life tend to succeed at feeling satisfied and fulfilled, whether doing paid work or not.

Needing to work for money isn't what gives people a sense of purpose.

Agreed.  Did you have a corporate job? I also feel that FIRE when young adds to a malcontent disposition. Were you older when you achieved FIRE?


Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 13, 2021, 12:06:43 PM

Anyone who holds a contrarian view is considered to be a troll. I came here expecting to find my people, but instead, it seems to have encountered those who are largely trying to achieve FIRE and perhaps can not relate to my issues.

I came into FIRE accidentally after being laid off long ago. It was not my goal other than to replace my income. I always expected to be able to return to my career. Since this thread, I have watched others who have achieved FIRE struggle with the same issues. FIRE has a downside. People can lose their sense of purpose. Endless days off become void of their meaning. Volunteering and self-improvement classes seem repetitive. Employment offers more than just compensation. It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.

Our lives are supposed to have meaning other than merely existing to indulge ourselves. Service to others through employment has value beyond the financial compensation. Endless days off are lonely, boring, and seems like a waste of life. It is my opinion and experience.

This is patently false.

It sucks that you haven't been happy with how your life has turned out, and I'm very sorry to hear that you haven't found ways to find satisfaction and sense of fulfillment since you last posted here.

Thanks!   I have witnessed others who are experiencing a similar result of achieving FIRE at a young age, depression, loneliness, loss of purpose. In my experience, it seems that the achievement of some sort of professional accolades prior to FIRE is a benefit.

Well yes, people who aren't fulfilled in their working lives are unlikely to feel fulfilled in retirement, no matter what age they retire. But it's not a function of retiring, it's a function of never figuring out how to live a fulfilling life.

Which is a common issue.

Most people need to be involved with the stream of life and don't realize what will be lost by abandoning their purpose.

Likewise many of us transition seamlessly into new purpose in retirement. I personally naturally seek out challenges and projects, no matter what external forces there are in my life

But that's kind of my point. People who find a lot of meaning and seek out purpose in life tend to succeed at feeling satisfied and fulfilled, whether doing paid work or not.

Needing to work for money isn't what gives people a sense of purpose.

Agreed.  Did you have a corporate job? I also feel that FIRE when young adds to a malcontent disposition. Were you older when you achieved FIRE?

Most of those who are FIRE are living very fulfilling lives so much so they rarely come around these parts anymore.  I think you're looking past other issues in your life and blaming FIRE for it.  I read thru most of this post and you seem to be depressed due to a lack of purpose which you personally think is fulfilled by working for a corporation.  FIRE isnt your problem. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 13, 2021, 12:15:39 PM
What are professional accolades? An award, a promotion, a large bonus? Or something else?

Achieving some sort of personal and public level of accomplishment before FIRE. Becoming satisfied with your work-life abilities prior to dropping out. Some careers have benchmarks that people consider to be evidence of professional success. I feel it is important prior to FIRE.

Some people need external motivation and validation.  Some people don't require external motivation and validation.  You clearly do.   Therefore, you should get a corporate job.   The path to getting a corporate job is very simple, I outlined it earlier in this thread.   Have you done those things yet, or are you still tweaking your resume? 

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: former player on December 13, 2021, 12:16:19 PM
I believe Skyhigh, because I have a friend in a somewhat similar situation.  He inherited the family business at an early age and needed to work only a couple of hours a week to keep it going.  He's a clever person, got an IT degree in three years in his 30s when he got tired of doing nothing, and then went back to doing nothing because he could afford to.  He's now 60 and doesn't have much to show for his life.  In different circumstances he would probably have followed a professional track into employment, but instead had an easy route out given to him and took it.   As someone who always knew I'd have to make my own way in the world and did so with some success I think I've made a better use of my life than he has with his.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 13, 2021, 12:28:32 PM
Agreed.  Did you have a corporate job? I also feel that FIRE when young adds to a malcontent disposition. Were you older when you achieved FIRE?

I've had many different jobs and retired at 38.

I also happen to have studied happiness and emotional well being extensively, in fact, I'm hosting a major talk this spring on the damage that professional burnout can do *permanently* to people's physical and cognitive functions. I've also advised many, many people on their careers over the years.

In short, I know an absolute fuck ton about life satisfaction, happiness, burnout, and career trajectories.

And no, I don't agree with you that retiring young adds to a malcontent disposition. My personal experience is that I'm actually happier and even more driven, and have accomplished huge things since I stopped working, because I have a VERY internal locus of control. You seem to have a rather external locus of control, which absolutely correlates with lower life satisfaction.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 13, 2021, 01:37:39 PM
First, I'm guessing most people who seek FIRE aren't content with professional accolades or didn't care about them to begin with, they are seeking freedom.  Otherwise they would continue to work even after FI.  Second, this thinking is very narrow, that you have no skilled work/hobbies or purpose without a full time job. Lots of highly successful people don't do traditional FT work.

If you think a corporate job would be fulfilling, go for it. But don't blame FIRE. I've never wanted nor will I ever want that type of job.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: herbgeek on December 13, 2021, 01:50:53 PM
Quote
It brings community, belonging, self-esteem, and purpose to one's life.

There are many other ways besides a corporate job to achieve these.  But I will agree that a corporate job is a lazy, easy socially approved way to possibly get those items.  Or, you could figure out what makes you happy and do that.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 13, 2021, 01:55:28 PM
Huh.  It seems to me that someone was unsatisfied with life and decided to FIRE, thinking it would solve the problem.  Then they were unsatisfied with FIRE and thought returning to work would solve the problem. 

It doesn't seem like working, or not, is the issue.  Seems like maybe it is time to dig deeper, regardless of whether you return to work or not.  I think the main thing that leads to a "malcontent disposition" is a lot deeper than working or not working.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: omachi on December 13, 2021, 01:57:39 PM
Wow. This thread is amazing. Should check if it has been submitted to the OP is the only one who doesn't see it thread yet.

Skyhigh, your problem isn't FIRE. Your problem is that you lack the fortitude and conviction to achieve what it is you think you should achieve or think you deserve to achieve.

FIRE gives you the option to take the easy way out, and lacking virtue, you choose that. This is a mark against you, not against FIRE. Blaming FIRE for the problems caused by your own choices, because it gives you the option to make them, is a further mark against you.

Sadly, even if you were not FIRE, it seems unlikely you would put yourself through the rigors required to leave the mark you think you ought. I've known too many people like you who should have been able to do whatever they wanted, but they instead chose to take the easy road whenever possible. These people were not FIRE, but given the option between putting in the effort to reach their stated goals and blaming the world for not granting them their desires, they chose the latter. Eventually, one learns that these people enjoy complaining more than they enjoy accomplishment.

The good news is that it can be fixed. Stop complaining. Cultivate virtue. Take responsibility for your life. Even if there are faults and causes outside your control, choose to react in a way that gets you closer to your stated goals. Of course, you may not make it to your status signifiers that way either. Once you have internal motivation and direction, you might just find that there are things more fulfilling than corporate accolades.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 13, 2021, 02:53:00 PM
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.

I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.

FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.

I am not the only one.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 13, 2021, 03:12:59 PM
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.

I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.

FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.

I am not the only one.

Yes, I participated in your thread beforehand, I'm familiar with your particular angst.

But I maintain, and so will everyone replying, that FIRE didn't cause any of your problems. You could have made different choices at any point, and you can still make different choices.

As I said, you seem to have an extremely external locus of control, which means you perceive your life circumstances as something that has happened to you, and yes, you aren't alone, this is a very common issue and at the heart of why so many people are so unhappy.

Having an internal locus of control is highly correlated with life satisfaction because those of us who have it feel like our lives are a product of our own decisions and actions, even when shit hits the fan, we feel like how we respond to that is totally within our control.

If you want to read about someone who got royally fucked in life and in their career, I invite you to read my journal.

I have a lot of pity for you, but not because of your life circumstances and DEFINITELY not for the fact that you have all of the freedom in the world to make your life something amazing. I pity you for the fact that you have so much and can't find a path tp purpose, despite having every single tool you need to do so.

I'm literally crippled and in constant pain and about to have both of my legs broken as part of a series of 6 surgeries with 2 full years of recovery until I'll be able to walk again, and that's if everything goes perfectly. Add that to the severe neck spinal damage that prevents me from being able to function even if my legs worked. I have so many limitations it's insane, and yet, I still feel completely optimistic about my ability to live a full and challenging life.

I also feel totally confident in my ability to generate a totally new professional career, despite the fact that I'll never be able to work full time, and despite the fact that I have no financial need to do so. I just like a challenge, so I just go out and challenge myself.

So if I, with my severe nerve damage, being stuck in bed debilitated more than 50% of the time, with my about to be broken femurs, and complete inability to work more than very part time can still manage to generate the energy and effort it takes to build a whole new professional career despite not even needing the income, then so can you if you really want to.

...and no, asking me more questions about my circumstances will not give you an ounce of opportunity to say "well it's easier for you" because I would bet large sums that it isn't.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: seattlecyclone on December 13, 2021, 03:15:26 PM
I don't think FIRE means what you think it means. If you were FIREd, why were you spending your time doing self-employment that you didn't enjoy? Why did you allow one layoff to end your professional career? If you were FIRE you should have had the space to pursue whatever training, networking, or other activities that might have been necessary to get a new job that was fulfilling to you. Instead you spent a bunch of time painting other people's homes. That's not FIRE's fault. That's on you.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DaTrill on December 13, 2021, 03:23:34 PM
Hi, Long ago as a younger person I was able to achieve FIRE. My dream, however, has always been to be a corporate slave. I spent my life, to date, trying to achieve that goal without a result. Recently I went to my fifth interview with my career objective employer only to be rejected again.

I am well regarded, educated, and highly experienced in my field. It is beginning to seem like FIRE is preventing my progression.  Its almost like they can smell the lack of desperation in my resume. They don't see the usual wage slave career progression markers or something. I read a book recently that mentioned a culture that comes along with corporate America jobs. It went on to explain that if one does not wear the right shoes, go to certain colleges, or use specific terms they can be subtly outed as someone from the outside and passed over. They are good and well-meaning people but can not see outsiders as fitting in, one of them. I have not been able to find a book on the subject that can help. It seems that people who come from corporate wage slave families grow up with the knowledge of how to handle themselves. It's like a pedigree that can't be bought, faked, or bribed. They have connections that I do not have. Doors open for elites when needed and they seem to pass through the tiers without much resistance into a well paying and highly respected positions.

I grew up in a FIRE family. Achieving FIRE has been a natural thing for me. I watched my mother build a small real estate empire. Instead of playing football or working at a grocery store after school I would ride my bike to one of my mother's job sites and work. I took her experiences and built upon it to create something even better. I am thankful for all the opportunity it has provided however there are some incredible downsides as well. To me, FIRE feels like a wasted life. I can't do any more volunteering. I am not interested in any more classes or lower-tier experience building jobs.  I have children whom I wish to see gainfully employed as they continue to grow up. My father had a long and satisfying career. He came from an elite corporate wage slave family. He did not understand FIRE and pushed back against it until he was laid off at 47 and retired because he could.

I am most likely out of luck. Too old now. My industry has moved onto a younger generation. It is incredibly sad for me. I wanted to be an example to my children. I am not sold on FIRE for them. My FIRE peers do not seem to do well in life. FIRE at a young age leads to self-destructive behavior in my experience. FIRE at an older age accelerates the decrepitude process. People tend to stop challenging themselves. They stop growing. Bad habits creep in. There is a lot to be thankful for as a corporate wage slave; the ability to be challenged, to achieve, to be embedded in an extensive social group. I am not alone. I have several FIRE peers who desperately want to get out as well. However, they have not tried as hard as I have.

Many here will not be sympathetic to my plea however those same people have cracked the code into corporate America. I am able to earn far more working my business however to what end does it serve this existence to be well paid but stuck in the same job I was doing in High School? Isn't there supposed to be more to this life than existing in a self-indulgent FIRE lifestyle? How does one break into one of the better corporate America jobs?

Follow Ivanka Trump. 
https://news.yahoo.com/ivanka-trump-tells-workers-to-find-something-new-because-old-jobs-arent-coming-back-183756343.html

I've had 5-ish FIREs and always switch fields after time off (sometimes for several years spending time in far flung remote vacation spots), as going back to the same old thing will result in the same old result.  Every position has resulted in higher pay, lower workload and more options for lifestyle.  For every career pursued, 2-3 are explored and rejected for one reason or another.

At one of my corporate jobs, a manager once got extremely happy and excited when a member of our team pulled up in a $100k+ car he could not afford.  The manager shared that debt was the best thing that could motivate employees, although the worst thing to do for a person's AUM.  If you don't have debt, you are communicating that at 5:01 pm, you will be in your car and at the edge of the parking lot everyday.   

Don't know what your skillset is, but applying the skills in a completely different industry, nothing to do with the past (try something completely opposite that nobody from past field has ever done, forge a new path) is the best advice one could give.  It sounds like you are doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome.

As many others have shared, FIRE is not the cause of your problems, like blaming winning the lottery for subsequent problems.       
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: omachi on December 13, 2021, 03:50:35 PM
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.

I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.

FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.

I am not the only one.
FIRE necessitates being FI, and being FI is having freedom. It is an adequate amount of money to not be made to do anything you do not want to. Being FI, you could've spent all the time in the world finding your next corporate gig, launching a company, doing anything of any challenge level. You took your freedom and chose to mow lawns and clean up after college students. If that didn't provide the challenge you needed, why did you not go find the challenge you needed? Being FI, there was no risk of missing a meal, not having a shirt on your back, or a roof over your head as long as you don't risk your capital.

The only argument you seem to have is that you can't handle freedom. That it was too easy to not rise to a new challenge. That it wasn't bad enough cleaning up after college students to push you into doing something of interest or that you'd feel proud of. That you weren't compelled to achieve your dreams, and it isn't that you could have done so at any point anyway and chose not to, but that the freedom to not be compelled is somehow bad.

How is what you're saying any different than Aristotle's argument for natural slavery? That some people aren't fit to be free?

I'll grant you the refreshingly novel twist of the one arguing for it also asserting they should be in chains. But aside from that?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 13, 2021, 05:39:34 PM
As others have said, if you continued to mow lawns and clean up after college students then you either weren't FIRE or you had some unexplained external reason for doing so.

Either way, why did you continue doing it if you hated it?  If you didn't need the money, why did you do it instead of spending your time on something you enjoyed?  And if you did need the money, why did you continue to do something you hated instead of finding work you found more fulfilling? 


Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 13, 2021, 06:35:46 PM
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.

I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.

FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.

I am not the only one.

Yes, I participated in your thread beforehand, I'm familiar with your particular angst.

But I maintain, and so will everyone replying, that FIRE didn't cause any of your problems. You could have made different choices at any point, and you can still make different choices.

As I said, you seem to have an extremely external locus of control, which means you perceive your life circumstances as something that has happened to you, and yes, you aren't alone, this is a very common issue and at the heart of why so many people are so unhappy.

Having an internal locus of control is highly correlated with life satisfaction because those of us who have it feel like our lives are a product of our own decisions and actions, even when shit hits the fan, we feel like how we respond to that is totally within our control.

If you want to read about someone who got royally fucked in life and in their career, I invite you to read my journal.

I have a lot of pity for you, but not because of your life circumstances and DEFINITELY not for the fact that you have all of the freedom in the world to make your life something amazing. I pity you for the fact that you have so much and can't find a path tp purpose, despite having every single tool you need to do so.

I'm literally crippled and in constant pain and about to have both of my legs broken as part of a series of 6 surgeries with 2 full years of recovery until I'll be able to walk again, and that's if everything goes perfectly. Add that to the severe neck spinal damage that prevents me from being able to function even if my legs worked. I have so many limitations it's insane, and yet, I still feel completely optimistic about my ability to live a full and challenging life.

I also feel totally confident in my ability to generate a totally new professional career, despite the fact that I'll never be able to work full time, and despite the fact that I have no financial need to do so. I just like a challenge, so I just go out and challenge myself.

So if I, with my severe nerve damage, being stuck in bed debilitated more than 50% of the time, with my about to be broken femurs, and complete inability to work more than very part time can still manage to generate the energy and effort it takes to build a whole new professional career despite not even needing the income, then so can you if you really want to.

...and no, asking me more questions about my circumstances will not give you an ounce of opportunity to say "well it's easier for you" because I would bet large sums that it isn't.
Oh, snap
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 13, 2021, 07:00:45 PM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Ishmael on December 14, 2021, 05:42:12 AM
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.

I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.

FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.

I am not the only one.
I find it hard to accept that people find deep meaning from corporate jobs - most of them are completely pointless, and the greater "purpose" most of them serve are simply to bilk others out of money. The average person needs very little to be happy, yet there's an incredible number of jobs dedicated around building things people don't really need for anything, and figuring out howe to convince them they do.

I think there are jobs in public service that are meaningful, but even those have most of the satisfaction squeezed out of them by bureaucracy or other factors.

Quite bluntly, I find the idea of someone defining their sense of self worth by involvement in the corporatocracy sad. Sure, you can derive a feeling of satisfaction rising to the challenges presented to you and figuring out solutions to them, but for the most part, they're artificially created problems resulting from negative human traits and again, are mostly pointless in the grand scheme of things. I can achieve the same level of satisfaction from brain teasers or puzzles or other artificial games.

I think it's terrible that there are people who lose all sense of well-being when they retire - IMO, it means they never had it their entire lives. If you don't have plans and goals for your own life, there are many others who will happily take over your life to advance their own plans, and that's what I feel has happened with those folks.

The idea that life needs to have some greater purpose is a weird one to me, that seems to cause a lot of angst in a lot of people. My guess would be that it's been implanted by those who like to control others, like religious groups or the rich, to motivate the masses to advance their own agendas. We evolved on this planet over the course of millions of years, and living is our purpose. We seem to have an instinctual desire to make life "better" for the next generation(s), and to minimize suffering (well, most of us, anyway :/).

What makes us happy and contented is having our basic needs met - being loved, food, shelter, being a part of something larger, etc. While the corporate world can help with the food and shelter, it's terrible at the rest. The being a part of something larger it offers is a frail, cold, heartless mirage that can be ripped away from you at any instant by one bad manager, or a casual decision by a CEO trying to earn his latest bonus to buy a new cottage. Making yourself attached to it is dangerous and short sighted, IMO. You have even experienced this yourself at age 38 without realizing the root of the issue! "I was laid off at 38"..."Washed up at 38."

If you want to face challenges and the sense of satisfaction that comes from overcoming them, you don't need (or WANT, I'd argue) a corporate master to pull your puppet strings for that - find a hobby you enjoy, or a way to help others (or animals, or the environment, whatever you really care about deep down), and get involved!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: former player on December 14, 2021, 05:47:47 AM
A large part of the world does see success as being a high-earning professional job.  That's not the view of most on this site, but let's be fair about that: a lot of us here who are FIREd or aiming for FIRE have had those sorts of job. If you've had it and come through the other side voluntarily it's a lot easier to reject its worth than if you've never had it or it's been taken away from you against your choice.

And the only reason some of us didn't take the "easy" way out is that it wasn't available to us.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 14, 2021, 06:13:48 AM
to summarize what you've said

1. you were laid off from a corp job at 38 which you enjoyed or at least think you enjoyed
2. you went to work managing your rental properties mowing lawns and fixing them up - this isnt FIRE - sorry its just a different job - you didn't like this job
3. you now think you can find meaning by going back to the world you were laid off from - is there a sense of rejection here that you're trying to overcome? Most FIREes leave the workplace and don't have the workplace leave them


the solution to number 2 is to hire this out then you will have truly passive income like most FIREes who index.  Contrary to your opinion that we all own property i'd say thats a very small subset of this forum.  Most just index invest.

The solution to number 3 is probably counseling.  I can very much understand your position when you might view your white collar career as a failure since you were let go under someone else's terms but again none of you issues appear to actually be caused by FIRE they have been caused by life experiences like being laid off.  And then your choice to active manage your rentals. 

To add to this you appear to be living in a state of deprivation that you somehow blame on the concept of FIRE - FIRE is a concept that is to be shaped and molded by each person to find the level of consumerism/lifestyle they are personally comfortable with.  Most of the face punch concepts around here are things people still do b/c they stepped back cut things from there life and have added back things they found they were missing.  Something is missing in your life maybe its a job but its highly unlikely thats actually the case.  Looking outside to find happiness often leads in more misery.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 14, 2021, 07:04:59 AM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 14, 2021, 07:16:16 AM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

I have reached a level long ago where I could hire it all out and I do have staff that helps me. By mowing lawns myself I could save $1200 each day. By painting a house myself or with a crew I can save perhaps $1800 per day. I am too frugal to leave that on the table.

The bottom line is that I spend my day doing manual labor when I cold have been a professional. I went to college to escape drudgery and sunburn but ended up there anyway. It seems that the achievement of some sort of professional standard prior to FIRE is a benefit to satisfying one’s sense of professional accomplishment. 

I never got that. I am financially much better off than had I spent my days in a suit but still do the same basic work functions I did straight out of high school. It is not very satisfying. I wish I had achieved some sort of professional success prior to FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: sui generis on December 14, 2021, 07:32:51 AM
I get what a lot of you are saying and without an in-depth accounting of life choices from each and every one of you it is hard to reconcile this subject.

I was laid off at 38 and forced into an alternative career path of being self-employed. Thankfully it worked out, however it was not my dream. I was reduced from wearing a clean white shirt and tie every day in a professional setting into mowing lawns and painting houses. It ended up providing a life that was easier and more lucrative as a self-employed real estate investor however it does not negate the fact that I might spend the day installing flooring, cleaning up after college students, or driving a john deere mower instead of something I am interested in.

FIRE comes with a steep price for many of us. It is my entire point. Washed up at 38. Killing your days mowing lawns or riding a mountain bike until it is over. Often it is the gun in the back of having to earn a living that propels us to great professional and personal accomplishments. FIRE can be the golden handcuffs. Too good to leave but not offering the challenge one needs to feel productive, accomplished, and satisfied.

I am not the only one.
I find it hard to accept that people find deep meaning from corporate jobs - most of them are completely pointless, and the greater "purpose" most of them serve are simply to bilk others out of money. The average person needs very little to be happy, yet there's an incredible number of jobs dedicated around building things people don't really need for anything, and figuring out howe to convince them they do.

I think there are jobs in public service that are meaningful, but even those have most of the satisfaction squeezed out of them by bureaucracy or other factors.

Quite bluntly, I find the idea of someone defining their sense of self worth by involvement in the corporatocracy sad. Sure, you can derive a feeling of satisfaction rising to the challenges presented to you and figuring out solutions to them, but for the most part, they're artificially created problems resulting from negative human traits and again, are mostly pointless in the grand scheme of things. I can achieve the same level of satisfaction from brain teasers or puzzles or other artificial games.

I think it's terrible that there are people who lose all sense of well-being when they retire - IMO, it means they never had it their entire lives. If you don't have plans and goals for your own life, there are many others who will happily take over your life to advance their own plans, and that's what I feel has happened with those folks.

The idea that life needs to have some greater purpose is a weird one to me, that seems to cause a lot of angst in a lot of people. My guess would be that it's been implanted by those who like to control others, like religious groups or the rich, to motivate the masses to advance their own agendas. We evolved on this planet over the course of millions of years, and living is our purpose. We seem to have an instinctual desire to make life "better" for the next generation(s), and to minimize suffering (well, most of us, anyway :/).

What makes us happy and contented is having our basic needs met - being loved, food, shelter, being a part of something larger, etc. While the corporate world can help with the food and shelter, it's terrible at the rest. The being a part of something larger it offers is a frail, cold, heartless mirage that can be ripped away from you at any instant by one bad manager, or a casual decision by a CEO trying to earn his latest bonus to buy a new cottage. Making yourself attached to it is dangerous and short sighted, IMO. You have even experienced this yourself at age 38 without realizing the root of the issue! "I was laid off at 38"..."Washed up at 38."

If you want to face challenges and the sense of satisfaction that comes from overcoming them, you don't need (or WANT, I'd argue) a corporate master to pull your puppet strings for that - find a hobby you enjoy, or a way to help others (or animals, or the environment, whatever you really care about deep down), and get involved!

All of this times 1 million.

I was all in on the idea of getting meaning from my career and professional accomplishments all of my life until I finally gave in to the fact that as much as I was told that was supposed to be satisfying.... It just wasn't. My career took me through private, non-profit and public service and no matter how I tried to justify the work I did based on the big picture or doing good in the world, it could not overcome the soul sucking factors or the obstacles to actually doing good. It was deeply saddening for me to realize this. If I could have gotten meaning out of life through an accomplished professional career, I would have. I just couldn't fool myself into believing what felt patently false to me, in practice.

I will say, however, that I understand angst around lack of community, and that people often look for it where they spend the vast majority of their time, at work. But that's sort of a chicken/egg issue. We used to have institutions and community outside of work. Rotary club, Lions club and other secular institutions as well as of course church, which is much more lightly attended nowadays. And even from this atheist, I think it's a shame. I'd prefer not to get community from misogynistic institutions, but there's no denying they created a fulfilling community for people. But all of these institutions, as well as just informal neighborly activities, are less active and harder to sustain nowadays. There are a lot of other factors involved, but a lot is the undermining of spending time on anything in life that is not profit oriented other than your immediate family. And then it's a deadly spiral. Few opportunities to find community... In your actual community, so spend even more time at work because you can find at least some community there, which further undermines the usefulness and existence of what opportunities for non-work community still exist, and so on. 

Now, jobs have to be everything to us. Our livelihood, as always, but also our sense of self-worth, our source of fellowship and fun, our identity. It's too much to ask of a job and maybe it's what leads some of us to FIRE, given the lack of ability for anything to meet all those expectations, except for a privileged few.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 14, 2021, 07:34:45 AM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

And retiring was forced upon me by my spine falling apart at the EXACT same age.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 14, 2021, 07:48:42 AM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

And retiring was forced upon me by my spine falling apart at the EXACT same age.


Malcat,

Oh no… I am so sorry. I hope you are able to get along alright. FIRE is a blessing when we are facing health challenges for sure. Over the years our kids have had various health challenges and both parents were able to help. FIRE is a salvation for many. I empathize with your situation.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 14, 2021, 07:58:25 AM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

And retiring was forced upon me by my spine falling apart at the EXACT same age.


Malcat,

Oh no… I am so sorry. I hope you are able to get along alright. FIRE is a blessing when we are facing health challenges for sure. Over the years our kids have had various health challenges and both parents were able to help. FIRE is a salvation for many. I empathize with your situation.

Did you read my very long post with a lot of personal details that I wrote earlier? Because I didn't take the time to write and share all of that for my own entertainment.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 14, 2021, 08:21:50 AM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

And retiring was forced upon me by my spine falling apart at the EXACT same age.


Malcat,

Oh no… I am so sorry. I hope you are able to get along alright. FIRE is a blessing when we are facing health challenges for sure. Over the years our kids have had various health challenges and both parents were able to help. FIRE is a salvation for many. I empathize with your situation.

Did you read my very long post with a lot of personal details that I wrote earlier? Because I didn't take the time to write and share all of that for my own entertainment.

Malcat,

Thank you for sharing that. I did miss it earlier. I am sorry for your situation and hope that your surgeries work out as you intend. Everyone has a different place on the spectrum of opportunity. I am very sorry for your health challenges. My mother has experienced something similar. She too has an internal drive and the ability to overcome many of life's obstacles.

All I can say is that we all are on our own journey. I am able-bodied and have a strong resume but can not find meaningful work in my field due to a poor job market. I hope you can empathize with my plight. I am ready and willing but am being held back due to outside forces that I can not control.

Had you not encountered your health challenge do you think you would still be at work?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on December 14, 2021, 08:27:00 AM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

This isn't retired. This is being fired (not caps). You keep talking about how manual labor is beneath you - yet you do it - and how you're FIRE. I think your definition of FIRE is different than many.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 14, 2021, 08:30:16 AM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

This isn't retired. This is being fired (not caps). You keep talking about how manual labor is beneath you - yet you do it - and how you're FIRE. I think your definition of FIRE is different than many.

correct  please read my summary post above OP you appear to have glossed over that like you glossed over Malcat's indepth definition

at this point it appears you want to have a pitty party and are looking for others to share in your pitty.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 14, 2021, 08:43:38 AM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

And retiring was forced upon me by my spine falling apart at the EXACT same age.


Malcat,

Oh no… I am so sorry. I hope you are able to get along alright. FIRE is a blessing when we are facing health challenges for sure. Over the years our kids have had various health challenges and both parents were able to help. FIRE is a salvation for many. I empathize with your situation.

Did you read my very long post with a lot of personal details that I wrote earlier? Because I didn't take the time to write and share all of that for my own entertainment.

Malcat,

Thank you for sharing that. I did miss it earlier. I am sorry for your situation and hope that your surgeries work out as you intend. Everyone has a different place on the spectrum of opportunity. I am very sorry for your health challenges. My mother has experienced something similar. She too has an internal drive and the ability to overcome many of life's obstacles.

All I can say is that we all are on our own journey. I am able-bodied and have a strong resume but can not find meaningful work in my field due to a poor job market. I hope you can empathize with my plight. I am ready and willing but am being held back due to outside forces that I can not control.

Had you not encountered your health challenge do you think you would still be at work?

I feel intense sadness for you that you have such an external locus of control, and strongly recommend that you seek the appropriate help to internalize your locus of control and take back power over your quality of life.

If you are able bodied and not cognitively impaired, there is no limit to the opportunities available to you if you apply yourself. Perhaps not in a specific job that you lost, but in plenty of rewarding, challenging roles that could really use hard working, able bodied, intelligent people.

If I weren't disabled, yes, I would still be working, but that doesn't mean I'm not happy in my retirement. My profession got much more difficult through covid, and most of my colleagues are actually bitterly jealous that I got to just leave and not deal with it. I often have to remind them that I'm crippled, in constant pain, and that I studied for 11 years only to work for 7.

It was a brutal loss when it happened, and I sought the appropriate therapy to process the loss and mourn in a healthy way so that I didn't adopt the kind of toxic victim mentality that so easily holds people back.

I'm not a victim, I just tend to deal with a lot of very specific types of challenges.

However, I have tons of options. Why? Because I've worked my ass off to foster the kind of skills needed to still have options.

I've actually accomplished more since retiring than I did in my last two years working. If my life isn't what I want it to be, I change it. If I don't have great options, I generate new ones.

I have had a life that my therapist affectionately refers to as "God's target practice" because that many devastating and brutal things have happened, and none of it has held me back from living a rich, rewarding, challenging, and wildly happy life.

Seriously, seek the appropriate therapy to mourn whatever losses you feel you have experienced, work on internalizing your locus of control, and build a life that's wonderful because you only get one, and only YOU can make it fantastic.

Because whining about it isn't going to change anything.

So yes, I am very, very sad for you that you are burying yourself in a victim identity that is emotionally crippling you from seeing just how fucking amazing you have it, and just how beautiful your life could be if you put in just a little bit of effort to repair your damaged emotional processes that are holding you back.

The main difference between you and me, besides the fact that you can walk, is that I have had a lot of amazing therapy.

Perhaps it's time to try something new since what you have been doing is not producing a positive result?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 14, 2021, 08:47:09 AM
FI is great. RE not so.

I have two younger FIRE friends who are starting to experience the ego decay and dangers of boredom that come with FIRE. In response, they have both started to take on unnecessary risks to fill the void. One is exposing themself to unnecessary business risk while the other personal physical risk through dangerous endeavors. I am trying to get them to settle down and just get a job at Costco before disaster strikes, but the golden handcuffs of FIRE are holding them hostage still.

I have seen this trajectory before. Some flirt with relationship disaster while others subconsciously sabotage their FIRE so that their ego will permit them to return to work. In my opinion, smart humans were not intended to be unemployed for long. Some of us need outside motivation and direction to remain challenged.

If someone is capable enough to achieve FIRE at a young age then they are too intelligent to be satisfied by spending their days in self-indulgent pursuits for long. Buying oneself toys and trying to fill the time with hobbies does not work a lot of the time, especially for younger people.

Imagine going to a party where young adults are meeting each other for the first time. When asked what your occupation was your response is "I ski". It sounds great to someone who has not lived that life but I can assure you that those words are often hollow. I don't attend such things anymore for that very reason. I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either.

It probably would be better to say something like "I am a retired CEO" over "I figured out how to do nothing all day". FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly. 

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 14, 2021, 08:57:06 AM
FI is great. RE not so.

I have two younger FIRE friends who are starting to experience the ego decay and dangers of boredom that come with FIRE. In response, they have both started to take on unnecessary risks to fill the void. One is exposing themself to unnecessary business risk while the other personal physical risk through dangerous endeavors. I am trying to get them to settle down and just get a job at Costco before disaster strikes, but the golden handcuffs of FIRE are holding them hostage still.

I have seen this trajectory before. Some flirt with relationship disaster while others subconsciously sabotage their FIRE so that their ego will permit them to return to work. In my opinion, smart humans were not intended to be unemployed for long. Some of us need outside motivation and direction to remain challenged.

If someone is capable enough to achieve FIRE at a young age then they are too intelligent to be satisfied by spending their days in self-indulgent pursuits for long. Buying oneself toys and trying to fill the time with hobbies does not work a lot of the time, especially for younger people.

Imagine going to a party where young adults are meeting each other for the first time. When asked what your occupation was your response is "I ski". It sounds great to someone who has not lived that life but I can assure you that those words are often hollow. I don't attend such things anymore for that very reason. I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either.

It probably would be better to say something like "I am a retired CEO" over "I figured out how to do nothing all day". FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.

Literally no one, and I mean NO ONE has ever insisted that retiring early has to consist of doing nothing of substance ever again.

I mean, you have read the MMM blog, right?

Some people do and love it, and that's great for them. They are happy and don't need to modify their lives. But for those of us who find joy in ongoing challenge, then RE is an AMAZING opportunity to take on more of that on our own terms.

So yet again, I could not disagree with you more.

Being retired has opened up WAY MORE resources for me to take on even bigger, more exciting challenges. If I could go back to my career at this point, I'm not sure I would, not more than very, very part time, because I'm too interested in the new stuff I have going on.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 14, 2021, 08:57:57 AM
You are completely missing the point of these responses. It's not FIRE, it's you (and apparently your friends, which honestly sounds made up).  You were laid off, forced into a different career, and still work.  It sucks, but you seem to be on the wrong forum.   The golden handcuffs of FIRE, lol (you are definitely trolling with that statement).

My parents have been retired for 20 years. Is that too long for them to be unemployed?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 14, 2021, 09:04:29 AM


Today is the day on which I get to work my part-time job. I will carefully read every response later, but for now, I am away. Thank you all for this discussion as I find it deeply interesting.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 14, 2021, 10:04:15 AM
clearly you're not here for help or the discussions as you ignore it all - you're here for a pitty party like i said before.  I feel very badly for your "friends" who have to listen to you pull down their FIRE choices b/c of your own personal issues that have nothing to do with FIRE. 

You need to seek help from a qualified professional to work thru your mental anguish.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on December 14, 2021, 10:06:46 AM
TPS reports make the day for some I guess.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: herbgeek on December 14, 2021, 11:18:08 AM
Quote
forced into an alternative career path

NOPE!  No one had a gun to your head.  You made particular choices, and don't like the outcome, and instead of taking responsibility for that, and making a plan to get to a better place,  you'd rather blame some abstract concept like FIRE so you can be blame free.  Your choice, of course to do that, but I doubt its going to get you to a happy place.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 14, 2021, 12:19:36 PM
FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.

You keep saying this, and it continues to matter not a whit to those of us who are very happily FIREd and leading fulfilling lives without work.  Without a doubt, the best and most fulfilling years of my life so far have been my 2.5 FIREd years - even during COVID. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 14, 2021, 12:24:11 PM
FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.

You keep saying this, and it continues to matter not a whit to those of us who are very happily FIREd and leading fulfilling lives without work.  Without a doubt, the best and most fulfilling years of my life so far have been my 2.5 FIREd years - even during COVID.

your signature quote is a snip from one of the best posts on these entire forums thanks for that!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 14, 2021, 12:31:40 PM
FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.

You keep saying this, and it continues to matter not a whit to those of us who are very happily FIREd and leading fulfilling lives without work.  Without a doubt, the best and most fulfilling years of my life so far have been my 2.5 FIREd years - even during COVID.

I am glad that you are enjoying FIRE. I have been in FIRE for nearly two decades now. It was not my choice.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 14, 2021, 12:39:31 PM
FIRE comes with a downside. Plan accordingly.

You keep saying this, and it continues to matter not a whit to those of us who are very happily FIREd and leading fulfilling lives without work.  Without a doubt, the best and most fulfilling years of my life so far have been my 2.5 FIREd years - even during COVID.

I am glad that you are enjoying FIRE. I have been in FIRE for nearly two decades now. It was not my choice.

yes it was your choice by saying it wasnt your choice you're not taking ownership of your decisions. 

being laid off and choosing not to return to work was your choice. 
Even being in the position to be laid off was your choice. 
choosing to spend your time doing maintenance on your rentals was your choice. 

You haven't even been FIRE for 2 decades you've been fired from a job you apparently still don't have closure with.  And based on your own statements here you've been working full time rehabing painting and mowing lawns. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 14, 2021, 01:03:00 PM
your signature quote is a snip from one of the best posts on these entire forums thanks for that!

Thanks, when I read sol's post that particular phrasing really struck me for some reason.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 14, 2021, 01:42:19 PM
OP, I've read through all of your posts on this thread.  I've started to write 3 different responses but none of them seem to really address the issue.  You've had some of the most insightful and helpful posters on this forum provide thoughtful responses, but nothing seems to break through.  I have questions that others have asked but you haven't really answered, like - why do you say you're FIREd when it seems like you're still working?  Why do you say you want a job and then say you keep turning down job offers?  Is the issue really with being FIREd (or still working - it's not clear) or with your feelings of inadequacy due to not having an impressive job title and set of accomplishments?  But those have all been asked and not very satisfactorily answered, so I'm not asking those questions again. 

My question is - why are you still posting here?  You clearly do not believe the huge numbers of people here who have happily retired early - you've made that abundantly clear.  This entire thread seems to demonstrate with ironclad certainty that your issues are much deeper than can be addressed on an internet forum, even when you're getting the best help that forum has to offer.  Have you considered seeing a therapist?  The level of unhappiness I'm hearing in your posts really feel devastating, and I'm just reading it rather than living it.  If you haven't tried it yet therapy might really help you get to a better place emotionally. 

Good luck. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ixtap on December 14, 2021, 01:50:32 PM
What really jumped out at me was the OP avoiding social situations where other people have job titles to share. This is the opposite of my experience. When you tell people you are a Professor of X, they come with a lot of assumptions and opinions that they spit at you. When you tell them you volunteer for X, Y, Z, they are more likely to engage with you.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 14, 2021, 02:05:25 PM
...It was not my choice...

IMO, this is the crux of your problem.  Malcat has properly labeled you as having an 'external locus'.  You feel like FIRE happened TO you instead of BY you.  (Your choices have actually been very deterministic and you are not cork adrift in the ocean with no power to set your course.)  Examine every area of your life and determine if you feel like things are happening TO you instead of FOR you.  One is a healthy attitude.  The other is certain to make you and keep you miserable. 

GOOD NEWS. You CAN willfully change to an internal locus of control.  Recommend reading up on Stoicism.  E.g. you can't control you got let go from your job - you can control how your react to that emotionally.  Plus, meditation and emotional/psych counseling.  You can't see it yet but you have made a choice to be sort of miserable.  You can choose to be happy, delighted even.  And you can choose to do something fulfilling. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 14, 2021, 02:16:23 PM
Why do you need the back story of every person here to figure out why you can't find happiness. You dismiss everything anyone here says. If malcats post doesn't resonate I'm not sure you can find what you're looking for here.

I guess the difference is that I did not want to be retired early. It was forced upon me by a poor job market.

I have reached a level long ago where I could hire it all out and I do have staff that helps me. By mowing lawns myself I could save $1200 each day. By painting a house myself or with a crew I can save perhaps $1800 per day. I am too frugal to leave that on the table.

The bottom line is that I spend my day doing manual labor when I cold have been a professional. I went to college to escape drudgery and sunburn but ended up there anyway. It seems that the achievement of some sort of professional standard prior to FIRE is a benefit to satisfying one’s sense of professional accomplishment. 

I never got that. I am financially much better off than had I spent my days in a suit but still do the same basic work functions I did straight out of high school. It is not very satisfying. I wish I had achieved some sort of professional success prior to FIRE.

Well, we have ascertained that FIRE is definitely NOT the cause of your unhappiness.  Because you have never been FIREd.  You went from your corporate job to your manual labor job.   You were working, whether because you needed the  money or because you were too frugal not to.  That isn't FIRE.

In your shoes, I'd likely spend great deal of time trying to figure out what I want out of life, and what would truly make me happy.  If you can't forgo $1200 of money you say you have no need for in order to make yourself happy, that's not healthy.  That's not frugal; it is cheap.  And if you do need (or want to have the things you buy with) that money, then find a different job to make $1200, and then hire out the lawn moving.

As far as spending your days doing manual labor when you could have been a professional, that statement sound to me like a mid-life crisis, which would explain the unhappiness.  Again, this is worth addressing with lots of self-reflection and with counseling if needed. 

And I'd also think on why it is you think corporate work is so superior to manual work. 
Title: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 14, 2021, 02:29:07 PM
FI is great. RE not so much.

So what you are saying is having the ability financially to do whatever calls to you in life is great. But actually spending your time doing what you find meaningful is not.

?

Can you see how this might not make sense to someone looking in from the outside?

I think you have stumbled upon two issues. 1) Leaving a job on your own terms is so different than being given the boot mentally. I was laid off from a job I was strongly considering quitting and it was hard on my ego because they made the decision , not me. Even though the end result was that I wasn’t working a job I didn’t want to work AND I got unemployment by being laid off. I wish you luck finding a way to work through this because as others keep saying, you are hung up on this point and it is making you unhappy.

2) once FIREd you have to face the tough job of figuring out who you are and what you want to do with your life. It is sort of scary and can be hard. Dr Doom wrote about his struggle quitting and the emotional work he had to do to get comfortable with pulling the trigger on his job. (Blog is livingAFI and the series is called The Quit Series). It is reasonable to flounder here but I don’t think the answer is necessarily to just avoid soul searching by going back to work.

If there is some burning goal you want to achieve that happens to be at work, then do it so you can scratch that itch. We are saying that for most of us we find more meaning and freedom exploring the entire world out there than just what is available within four cubicle walls.

We aren’t generally happy sitting around and recreating and if you think that is what FIRE is then I respectfully submit that you have it wrong.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 08:20:47 AM
Sorry, My part-time job ended up becoming a two-day event.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 08:48:21 AM

I am here to claim that I am an expert at FIRE. I come from a long family history that commonly attains Financial Independence and Retires Early. My grandfathers and great-grandfathers for many generations back all retired by 45. Most thought financial accomplishment, but others by giving up on life. My wife’s family has a similar tradition through job-related injury and SSI benefits. Some of the wives continued to work but none of the men past 45 years of age for over 150 years on both sides of my family.

As such, I believe that I understand what happens after FIRE and I am here to share that much of it is not good. My father had a brilliant career in the space program until one day at 45 years of age he just quit. My parents had accumulated a nice portfolio of rental properties and financial investments so that he did not have to get up early and drive to work anymore. After a hard day at the office, he handed in his resignation and never worked a day ever again. He went from being a leader in the space program to taking up space and it is my belief that nature noticed.

After FIRE my father didn’t climb Mt. Everest or do anything else of significance ever again for that matter. He sat at home entertaining himself with meaningless pursuits and began a rapid decay process that concluded in his early death. He was a living corpse that was no benefit to himself or anyone else. It is as if he was recognized as an inert organism by life and expunged by design. When my father-in-law reached a similar age he just sat down like an old mule one day and did not return to work for reasons only known to him. He had no signs of a malady, he just lost all motivation and drive and stopped. After a few years, cancer came and he expired soon after.

The concept of retirement is a recent one in human history. In the later 1800s, Germany was trying to create an economic stimulus to help the mass of unemployed youth and determined that it was better to send the money to the aged as a motivation to stay home. This way two generations were benefited through one stimulus package. The young got jobs and the old got to stay home, and thus, the concept of retirement was born. Before that humans commonly worked until they were dead.

I believe that it is unhealthy and unnatural for people to retire. I have seen the results in my own family and watched as peers and clients follow a similar trajectory. Most leave productive life with grand declarations of what they would use the time for but it never seems to go as planned. Children who grow up in FIRE families associate with the same tradition. They unknowingly tend to deactivate in a similar manner. Without an example of an active life, in later years they unknowingly are programmed by example to follow the same path whether they have the means or not. Small children who grow up with stay-at-home parents may never develop the drive to do anything since all they have known as an example of adulthood is parents who sleep-in, ride mountain bikes, and teach homeschool. How are they supposed to acclimate to a professional life?

My DNA programmed me to FIRE. I know how to do it at an instinctual level. I never intended my FIRE to become permanent after being laid off yet here I am. At the time it was the only path I had to provide for my family. My aim is to change that tradition. I don’t want my kids or grandkids to see inert or underemployed adults in their later years. My goal is to remain vital and productive until the end. It might be through mowing lawns or filling boxes at Costco, however, I would rather it be involved in a meaningful career that engages me to my highest and best use.

Apart from that, I am an expert at FIRE. I know how to get there and have a lot of information to share. I realize that my message cuts against the grain of many here however I believe that my perspective has value. This is a forum where ideas are meant to be shared. Mine are very different and worthy of attention.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 16, 2021, 08:57:31 AM
Misery loves company i guess you can find that in your family - here you haven't found the company you seek.  Maybe a new blog should be started called consume til you die and you can find the culture you seek.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 09:01:41 AM


My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise.  I have a lot of experience with FIRE.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 16, 2021, 09:02:48 AM


My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise.  I have a lot of experience with FIRE.

dont show them this thread
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 09:03:49 AM
Misery loves company i guess you can find that in your family - here you haven't found the company you seek.  Maybe a new blog should be started called consume til you die and you can find the culture you seek.

In my opinion, a forum is meant as an exchange of differing ideas as a means of advancing a collective understanding of the subject. If you only want your own pre-conceived ideas repeated back to you you could talk to yourself in the mirror.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 09:07:19 AM


My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise.  I have a lot of experience with FIRE.

dont show them this thread

My clients understand my views. As I previously mentioned I like the financial independence part.

'Strive to provide enough so that they can do something with their lives, but not enough so that they can afford to do nothing." - Unknown
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 16, 2021, 09:10:28 AM
you trying to drum up business with this nonsense on these forums?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 09:11:46 AM
Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 09:23:45 AM


Imagine being a kid who grows up in a family where both parents can afford to stay at home unemployed. You were not there to see how they did it. Your consciousness materialized after they were retired. To you, adult life means sleeping in, trips to Maui, and walks in the park. No discussion of what happened at work, or lesson on how to get ahead in the office. No example of what an employed life looks like.

How is a child from that environment supposed to develop the work ethic needed to attain a position of FIRE? Parents in that situation had better plan for their own retirement and then provide for their children's retirement as well.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 09:28:51 AM
Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 16, 2021, 09:31:39 AM
Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

uhh dude you're the outlier in these forums. I do not understand how you can't see that.

Comparing a lottery winner to a person who has the intellectual understanding, self control, and forsight to even learn about and get to FIRE through working and saving shows just how NOT AN EXPERT you are on what you claim to be. 

Normally people who shout I'm an EXPERT at anything from the rooftops should be heavily avoided for that topic.  Maybe tone down your EGO and go re read all the posts on this thread.  I bet  you still have not read Malcat's post as you say you want to learn more about them yet they have been a very large open book all over these forums including the book they wrote for you here in this thread.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 09:42:05 AM
Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

It doesn't matter if I'm an outlier.

If the majority of people approach something wrong, that doesn't make them experts in doing that thing, it makes the experts rare.

I was an expert in a specific area of medicine that few people understand. My colleagues weren't experts because they failed to do it well, I was the expert because I was the outlier.

Experts are often outliers.

You are unhappy and living a life that you generally describe as miserable. How on earth do you purport to be an expert?

It sounds like you have been rather financially successful in real estate, you might be able to claim to be an expert in that, and probably have a lot of wisdom to share, which is why I gave you advice in your other thread as to how to frame your knowledge in a more accessible way.

As I said, you are ABSOLUTELY an expert at throwing away opportunities to be happy and making excuses for why you can't do things that so, so, so many other people can.

You could just write me off as an "outlier" or you could take an interest as to why I'm able to be happy despite having a much, much more difficult life than you do. Because what I do differently from you is all LEARNABLE.

So you can either take an interest in how to improve your absolutely miserable state, or you can just keep looking for ways to reject any possibility that it could be improved.

Why you would WANT to stay miserable is beyond me though.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 09:52:09 AM
Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

uhh dude you're the outlier in these forums. I do not understand how you can't see that.

Comparing a lottery winner to a person who has the intellectual understanding, self control, and forsight to even learn about and get to FIRE through working and saving shows just how NOT AN EXPERT you are on what you claim to be. 

Normally people who shout I'm an EXPERT at anything from the rooftops should be heavily avoided for that topic.  Maybe tone down your EGO and go re read all the posts on this thread.  I bet  you still have not read Malcat's post as you say you want to learn more about them yet they have been a very large open book all over these forums including the book they wrote for you here in this thread.

Forums like this are commonly populated with wannabes and the aspirational. Those who have achieved the goal tend to move on to other things. I expect to be the outlier.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 09:57:28 AM
Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

uhh dude you're the outlier in these forums. I do not understand how you can't see that.

Comparing a lottery winner to a person who has the intellectual understanding, self control, and forsight to even learn about and get to FIRE through working and saving shows just how NOT AN EXPERT you are on what you claim to be. 

Normally people who shout I'm an EXPERT at anything from the rooftops should be heavily avoided for that topic.  Maybe tone down your EGO and go re read all the posts on this thread.  I bet  you still have not read Malcat's post as you say you want to learn more about them yet they have been a very large open book all over these forums including the book they wrote for you here in this thread.

Forums like this are commonly populated with wannabes and the aspirational. Those who have achieved the goal tend to move on to other things. I expect to be the outlier.

I think you should spend more time reading and learning here, because your assumptions are inaccurate.

Most of our most prolific posters are highly successful in our goals.

Almost every thread here is populated with people you could learn A LOT from. It's why I'm here, I learn enormous amounts, and am constantly humbled by the level of actual expertise here.

Boarder42, who keeps responding to you, single handedly totally changed the way I approached debt when I was first starting here. Completely changed my life and my approach to my personal finances with one snarky, insightful post that ripped my thinking to shreds, which I, at the time, thought was very, very smart.

The reason everyone keeps disagreeing with you is because you might, just maybe, just possibly, be totally wrong about the audience you are speaking to.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 10:00:18 AM
Hey, guess what.

I'm also from a family that obtains financial independence very early on, and all of those family members spent their years doing amazing things. Like really, truly impressive, inspirational things.

I'm sad for you that your family modeled wasting their lives to you. My family modeled grabbing life by the balls and never letting go.

You're not an expert in FIRE, you're an expert in letting life pass you by and wasting every amazing opportunity you've been handed on a silver platter.

An expert in FIRE would be an expert in making the most of it. Not someone who spits in the face of freedom and opportunity and says "I'm too lazy to pursue the things I want because no one is forcing me to".

You're probably just going to continue ignoring my posts though.

Malcat,

I am greatly appreciative of your attention. You strike me as an intellectual. I would enjoy learning more about you and the example you came from. In the meantime, I offer lottery winners as an example of how FIRE can ruin people. In my experience, it is the common outcome for most.  Human nature is fairly constant.

However, I believe that you are an outlier and I find that interesting.

It doesn't matter if I'm an outlier.

If the majority of people approach something wrong, that doesn't make them experts in doing that thing, it makes the experts rare.

I was an expert in a specific area of medicine that few people understand. My colleagues weren't experts because they failed to do it well, I was the expert because I was the outlier.

Experts are often outliers.

You are unhappy and living a life that you generally describe as miserable. How on earth do you purport to be an expert?

It sounds like you have been rather financially successful in real estate, you might be able to claim to be an expert in that, and probably have a lot of wisdom to share, which is why I gave you advice in your other thread as to how to frame your knowledge in a more accessible way.

As I said, you are ABSOLUTELY an expert at throwing away opportunities to be happy and making excuses for why you can't do things that so, so, so many other people can.

You could just write me off as an "outlier" or you could take an interest as to why I'm able to be happy despite having a much, much more difficult life than you do. Because what I do differently from you is all LEARNABLE.

So you can either take an interest in how to improve your absolutely miserable state, or you can just keep looking for ways to reject any possibility that it could be improved.

Why you would WANT to stay miserable is beyond me though.

Malcat,

I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.

As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 16, 2021, 10:10:58 AM
great job not actually reading what malcat wrote and just responding with the same jibberish.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 10:13:29 AM


Malcat,

I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.

As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.

You just did exactly what I suggested you not do.

And you are purposefully ignoring what I'm saying.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 16, 2021, 10:17:25 AM
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 10:39:46 AM
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on December 16, 2021, 10:41:27 AM
The OP's point of view reminds me of the slave in Norsemen who puts up with horrible degrading treatment by his Viking masters despite having actually been freed some years before.  His explanation? "I need the structure". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series)
"Øystein Martinsen as Kark, a freed slave who has voluntarily returned to his life as a slave after being institutionalized. "
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 16, 2021, 10:42:31 AM


Malcat,

I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.

As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.

You just did exactly what I suggested you not do.

And you are purposefully ignoring what I'm saying.

I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on December 16, 2021, 10:43:22 AM
Doesn't sound like experience with ER as much as experience with purpose free living...

@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 16, 2021, 10:47:42 AM
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.


you have anecdotal experiences warped by your own bias.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 16, 2021, 10:55:31 AM


Malcat,

I associate productivity and professional achievement with happiness. In my experience when left to our own devices humans tend to atrophy. In your case, however, I believe that you are an intellectual outlier who excels in a situation where you are free to explore your inner world. Just a guess, however. In any case, I admite you.

As you pointed out we are all different. It is my belief that most will not prosper when not challenged by external forces.

You just did exactly what I suggested you not do.

And you are purposefully ignoring what I'm saying.

I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.

You have to be successful at something to be an expert. And being absolutely miserable doesn't sound like being successful to me.

MMM is considered an expert on FIRE because the whole point is to live your best life.

I wouldn't consider a lottery winner whose life falls into misery to be an "expert" at how to live after winning the lottery either.

You may be a cautionary tale, but you are not an expert unless you have useful advice to offer. And so far, your only advice is to insist that people shouldn't FIRE.

Meanwhile, a real expert would give people tangible, actionable advice as to how to AVOID the pitfalls you have experienced.

You're not an expert because you are convinced that retiring is the problem, when it absolutely IS NOT.

Having a lot of bad experience at something does not make one an expert.

There are plenty of experts whose expertise comes out of bad experiences, but they're expertise is in how to handle those bad experiences.

Do you see the difference?

You have to be GOOD at something to be an expert. What are you claiming to be GOOD at?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 16, 2021, 11:23:27 AM
I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.

I appreciate the warning, but your story is as old as the hills.  At age 38, you made the decision to pursue money instead of happiness.  Today, you have the money but no happiness.

A reoccurring theme on FIRE blogs and especially MMM is using FI to pursue happiness.  I agree, you are a cautionary tale of what happens when you do it wrong.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on December 16, 2021, 11:36:52 AM
Skyhigh, have you ever been to therapy?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 16, 2021, 11:37:10 AM
I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.

I appreciate the warning, but your story is as old as the hills.  At age 38, you made the decision to pursue money instead of happiness.  Today, you have the money but no happiness.

A reoccurring theme on FIRE blogs and especially MMM is using FI to pursue happiness.  I agree, you are a cautionary tale of what happens when you do it wrong.

That's an excellent way to put it.  slow clap
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Fru-Gal on December 16, 2021, 11:42:53 AM
Loved this!

Quote
The OP's point of view reminds me of the slave in Norsemen who puts up with horrible degrading treatment by his Viking masters despite having actually been freed some years before.  His explanation? "I need the structure". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsemen_(TV_series)
"Øystein Martinsen as Kark, a freed slave who has voluntarily returned to his life as a slave after being institutionalized. "

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 16, 2021, 12:33:45 PM
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.

@Skyhigh

Just because you don't actively practice a faith does not mean you lack a spiritual component to your personhood.  I'd like to strongly recommend studying some Carl Jung (sans the mysticism.)  You clearly have an internal dialogue that contains some elements that are toxic to you.  Some people would call that your "prayer" or "conversation with the Universe".  This is a very ancient concept that predates Christ.  You are dwelling on misery and thereby attracting more misery to yourself.  A little bit of Jungian analysis would allow you to do the very difficult work (and know you don't want to be seen as emotionally lazy) of examining and confronting your own shadow material and thus processing the trauma FIRE has clearly caused you. 

You are hurting.  It is noble you have a service mindset to protect others from experiencing your pain.  But (and an entire forum has basically been screaming this at you...) it is a misguided act of service.  Most people either are not traumatized by FIRE at all, or if they are, quickly process it in a productive way, instead of negatively dwelling on it like you have for decades.  You are very emotionally/psychologically (I say "spiritually") STUCK.  Take positive action to move your energy starting today.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 16, 2021, 12:34:20 PM
I guess that I do not accept your requirement that "happiness" is required to be considered as an expert of anything. My position is that it is normal to be happy for a while after FIRE however over considerable time can decay into something else. My aim is to help others to avoid that fate.

I appreciate the warning, but your story is as old as the hills.  At age 38, you made the decision to pursue money instead of happiness.  Today, you have the money but no happiness.

A reoccurring theme on FIRE blogs and especially MMM is using FI to pursue happiness.  I agree, you are a cautionary tale of what happens when you do it wrong.
Obligatory reference to relevant post: https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/06/08/happiness-is-the-only-logical-pursuit/
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 16, 2021, 12:49:24 PM


My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investment. I am nearing completion of a certified financial planner credential to expand upon that premise.  I have a lot of experience with FIRE.

Wait, so you think FIRE is damaging and demoralizing, and yet you've made a business of helping people achieve it?  Isn't the hypocritical?  It's like an addiction counselor having a side hustle selling meth. 

Also, your "expertise" from family history sounds like it consists of many (or most) who ended up not working after 45 because they couldn't, not because they made an informed decision without outside factors like injury or lay off coming in to play. 

But regardless of all that, you sound like someone who will be unhappy and dissatisfied no matter your lot in life.  I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears, but I'll again suggest you do a lot of self-reflection and probably get some outside assistance to help you find a satisfying life path.  But working to help people achieve something you think is a path to misery is unlikely to ever feel satisfying or give you a sense of purpose, unless you have almost psychopathic levels of detachment and apathy. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: LD_TAndK on December 17, 2021, 04:34:18 AM
If you're surrounded by successful careerists on the high consumption bandwagon it can really feel like you're missing out on some big meaning of life thing by not fulfilling your employment & consumption potential. I can definitely sympathize with the OP's dissatisfaction.

I'd suggest shattering your world-view, try a thru-hike, live-work on a co-op, live in a "weird" place for a while, seek out people with alternative lifestyles and alternative values. These types experiences were vital for me to view career success objectively, and to find other types of life satisfaction.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 17, 2021, 07:12:48 AM
I think I figured out the disconnect.  The OP holds the majority view, that people need to work until 60 something or they'll have nothing to do and will basically fall into decline. 

He doesn't recognize that members of this particular forum have already received and rejected this message. It's a very common, unintellectual approach to work-life, and most people follow it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 07:19:07 AM
I think I figured out the disconnect.  The OP holds the majority view, that people need to work until 60 something or they'll have nothing to do and will basically fall into decline. 

He doesn't recognize that members of this particular forum have already received and rejected this message. It's a very common, unintellectual approach to work-life, and most people follow it.

I really don't think that's it.

It's about identity. He felt he lost his identity when he lost his career, that's very clear. Then he's never been able to forge an identity for himself since that he's comfortable with.

It's like career dysmorphia, a sort of "this isn't who I am or who I'm supposed to be" and it's making him fucking miserable.

But instead of seeking solutions, he's raging against the perceived evil that caused it, and when he sees that evil being celebrated, he feels compelled to educate people of the evils that he thinks they're just not seeing.

He's frustrated because he feels like an expert on this matter because of his and his family's experience, and we're all either too stubborn to acknowledge the truth, or individually we're exceptions to the rule who are just failing to see it because we think we're the norm, not the exception.

This is why he doesn't even really fully read replies, he knows it's pointless, because he knows the *truth*
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 07:20:02 AM
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.

@Skyhigh

Just because you don't actively practice a faith does not mean you lack a spiritual component to your personhood.  I'd like to strongly recommend studying some Carl Jung (sans the mysticism.)  You clearly have an internal dialogue that contains some elements that are toxic to you.  Some people would call that your "prayer" or "conversation with the Universe".  This is a very ancient concept that predates Christ.  You are dwelling on misery and thereby attracting more misery to yourself.  A little bit of Jungian analysis would allow you to do the very difficult work (and know you don't want to be seen as emotionally lazy) of examining and confronting your own shadow material and thus processing the trauma FIRE has clearly caused you. 

You are hurting.  It is noble you have a service mindset to protect others from experiencing your pain.  But (and an entire forum has basically been screaming this at you...) it is a misguided act of service.  Most people either are not traumatized by FIRE at all, or if they are, quickly process it in a productive way, instead of negatively dwelling on it like you have for decades.  You are very emotionally/psychologically (I say "spiritually") STUCK.  Take positive action to move your energy starting today.

F.I.,

You are a very kind and thoughtful person. I greatly appreciate your compassion and concern. I agree with your assessment that I am “hurting”, however I don’t believe that it is different from anyone else who has a dream. My goal is to strive to become my best self. A version that provides service to others through the contribution of my best abilities. I do not believe that striving to do noting with this life is a virtue. Volunteering at the soup kitchen while withholding superior skills and knowledge does not compensate.

In my experience those who intentionally leave the stream of life early are doing harm to themselves and to others around them. It is not a good example to our children nor does it help ourselves either.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 17, 2021, 07:33:22 AM
I think I figured out the disconnect.  The OP holds the majority view, that people need to work until 60 something or they'll have nothing to do and will basically fall into decline. 

He doesn't recognize that members of this particular forum have already received and rejected this message. It's a very common, unintellectual approach to work-life, and most people follow it.

I really don't think that's it.

It's about identity. He felt he lost his identity when he lost his career, that's very clear. Then he's never been able to forge an identity for himself since that he's comfortable with.

It's like career dysmorphia, a sort of "this isn't who I am or who I'm supposed to be" and it's making him fucking miserable.

But instead of seeking solutions, he's raging against the perceived evil that caused it, and when he sees that evil being celebrated, he feels compelled to educate people of the evils that he thinks they're just not seeing.

He's frustrated because he feels like an expert on this matter because of his and his family's experience, and we're all either too stubborn to acknowledge the truth, or individually we're exceptions to the rule who are just failing to see it because we think we're the norm, not the exception.

This is why he doesn't even really fully read replies, he knows it's pointless, because he knows the *truth*

That's true of course. I'm stuck on the tremendous ego it takes to insist that one's leaps of logic rule the day.  There's a clear difference between a conscious and thoughtful study of FIRE concepts to prepare for financial independence (what we are doing) and, like, giving up (which is the OP's experience).
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 07:33:57 AM
@Skyhigh any chance you subscribe to any sort of religious faith?  To my way of thinking, you have a deeply spiritual issue blocking your happiness.

Thank you F.I,

I do not have any religious faith. What I do have is a lot of experience with the effects of early retirement and its impact on the individual and their families.

@Skyhigh

Just because you don't actively practice a faith does not mean you lack a spiritual component to your personhood.  I'd like to strongly recommend studying some Carl Jung (sans the mysticism.)  You clearly have an internal dialogue that contains some elements that are toxic to you.  Some people would call that your "prayer" or "conversation with the Universe".  This is a very ancient concept that predates Christ.  You are dwelling on misery and thereby attracting more misery to yourself.  A little bit of Jungian analysis would allow you to do the very difficult work (and know you don't want to be seen as emotionally lazy) of examining and confronting your own shadow material and thus processing the trauma FIRE has clearly caused you. 

You are hurting.  It is noble you have a service mindset to protect others from experiencing your pain.  But (and an entire forum has basically been screaming this at you...) it is a misguided act of service.  Most people either are not traumatized by FIRE at all, or if they are, quickly process it in a productive way, instead of negatively dwelling on it like you have for decades.  You are very emotionally/psychologically (I say "spiritually") STUCK.  Take positive action to move your energy starting today.

F.I.,

You are a very kind and thoughtful person. I greatly appreciate your compassion and concern. I agree with your assessment that I am “hurting”, however I don’t believe that it is different from anyone else who has a dream. My goal is to strive to become my best self. A version that provides service to others through the contribution of my best abilities. I do not believe that striving to do noting with this life is a virtue. Volunteering at the soup kitchen while withholding superior skills and knowledge does not compensate.

In my experience those who intentionally leave the stream of life early are doing harm to themselves and to others around them. It is not a good example to our children nor does it help ourselves either.

This is getting fucking ridiculous.

Retiring early doesn't have to mean doing nothing and volunteering only at a soup kitchen.

Do you seriously just ignore everything I write?

So many people who retire are actually freed up to do much cooler work than their careers ever allowed them to. If you aren't doing that kind of volunteer work, then you either have never tried or just don't know how to get high level volunteer positions.

My current volunteer roles are more corporate, more prestigious, and involve managing much bigger projects than my career did.

Almost anyone who wants to do meaningful work is able to meaningful work once they've retired. There's literally no barrier holding anyone back.

Also, if someone is happy, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with choosing not to use their professional skills. I have many professional skills that I choose not to use. That's my right.

I used to be a chef, I didn't enjoy it, I'll never be a chef again. You have no right to dictate that I should have to be a chef just because I can.

I'm also trained professionally as an artist, I didn't enjoy it, so I don't do art anymore. And again, you have no right to dictate that I should have to be an artist.

I'm trained as a neuroscientist. I enjoyed it, but hated academia, so I don't do research anymore. And yet again, you have no right to dictate that I should be a researcher.

I'm going to do what makes ME happy. That's what you should be doing too.

So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 07:38:40 AM
That's true of course. I'm stuck on the tremendous ego it takes to insist that one's leaps of logic rule the day.  There's a clear difference between a conscious and thoughtful study of FIRE concepts to prepare for financial independence (what we are doing) and, like, giving up (which is the OP's experience).

That's what happens when a position becomes an identity. It's not ego necessarily, it just seems that way. To him, it feels like the fundamental truth of who he is.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 17, 2021, 07:44:26 AM


So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 07:48:59 AM


So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.

Ah, you are too cynical.

I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 08:39:14 AM


So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.

Ah, you are too cynical.

I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.

I get the feeling that many here are not parents. I have nothing to base it on other than expressed opinions and attitudes. The example that I provide my children is much of what drives me.

I concede that my ego is very much invested in my professional accomplishments, goals, and dreams. My career high watermark fell short of my aspirations. Most of it was due to a poor job market but a lot due to the allure of easy living through FIRE. I do blame FIRE for robbing me of my motivation, and why wouldn't it? Working at the convenience of others is a drag. It is hard to have to get up early and drive to a menial position in hopes that it will bare fruit in a decade or two. Employment sucks,, right?

My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.

Besides the bruised ego my issue is with my children. My grandfather was a decorated officer in the Navy during WWII. My father was one of the first aerospace engineers in the nation and is credited with many advances in the space program. As a child growing up in the shadows of these accomplished people my expectations and goals were formed through their example. I believe that our children pattern much of their self-esteem and life expectations from what we do. As a result, I am not comfortable with my accomplishments.

I still provide a manual labor function to my business because it gives me something to do and my kids get to see me work. My hope was to have been able to return to my chosen field and provide a different example, but it is not so easy to voluntarily stick one's head back into the noose of employment. My wife completed her college degree and started her career once the kids were all in school. She could sit at home too.

As I have mentioned before I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history.  It is especially harmful to young people. I don't believe that it provides a good example for children who will pattern their expectations on what they see their parents doing with their time and gifts. I base these findings upon the study of generations of my family and from the results of my clients. I am an expert at FIRE and it comes with a downside. Everything does.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 08:47:56 AM


For all those here who wish to see me punished for my contrarian views, you will get your wish.

I have to attend a work holiday party with my spouse and will be confronted with the dreaded "so what do you do" question. I never know what to say in these situations and am always embarrassed. Below are some of the answers I have used in the past.

"I figured out how I can afford to do nothing"

"I am a laid off -----"

"I own things that make it so that I can do what I want all day"

"I ski"

"I am a kept husband"

Rest assured I will be uncomfortable for several hours. All here can take delight at my humiliations.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 09:05:32 AM


So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.

Ah, you are too cynical.

I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.

I get the feeling that many here are not parents. I have nothing to base it on other than expressed opinions and attitudes. The example that I provide my children is much of what drives me.

I concede that my ego is very much invested in my professional accomplishments, goals, and dreams. My career high watermark fell short of my aspirations. Most of it was due to a poor job market but a lot due to the allure of easy living through FIRE. I do blame FIRE for robbing me of my motivation, and why wouldn't it? Working at the convenience of others is a drag. It is hard to have to get up early and drive to a menial position in hopes that it will bare fruit in a decade or two. Employment sucks,, right?

My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.

Besides the bruised ego my issue is with my children. My grandfather was a decorated officer in the Navy during WWII. My father was one of the first aerospace engineers in the nation and is credited with many advances in the space program. As a child growing up in the shadows of these accomplished people my expectations and goals were formed through their example. I believe that our children pattern much of their self-esteem and life expectations from what we do. As a result, I am not comfortable with my accomplishments.

I still provide a manual labor function to my business because it gives me something to do and my kids get to see me work. My hope was to have been able to return to my chosen field and provide a different example, but it is not so easy to voluntarily stick one's head back into the noose of employment. My wife completed her college degree and started her career once the kids were all in school. She could sit at home too.

As I have mentioned before I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history.  It is especially harmful to young people. I don't believe that it provides a good example for children who will pattern their expectations on what they see their parents doing with their time and gifts. I base these findings upon the study of generations of my family and from the results of my clients. I am an expert at FIRE and it comes with a downside. Everything does.

AGAIN you ignored what I posted.

Are you doing this on purpose, because it's really fucking rude.

Did you just not read the part about how people in retirement can take on all sorts of important roles and responsibilities if they want to?

Also, my father was unemployed for most of my childhood. He had made a lot of money and then didn't work for years. He was an EXCELLENT model for me because he was very present, very involved, challenged me constantly, held me to a very high intellectual standard. We spent a TON of time together, and almost all of our quality time together consisted of being heavily involved in community service.

And guess what, I retained a strong sense of community responsibility, which is why I have a lifetime of high end volunteer work, which is why in retirement, it's so easy for me to get very elite level volunteer roles where I make an important impact on the world.

You COULD do the same thing, but you choose not to, so what example does that set for your kid?
You are setting the example that their only value will be their job title, and that's some toxic shit.

For the record, I have mentored many, many young people and had to deprogram this corporate success bullshit from them to free them up to be able to make better professional decisions for themselves.

Modeling for a kid that the only way to have value and be happy is to be employed by a company that doesn't care about them is...concerning.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: sui generis on December 17, 2021, 09:41:35 AM
You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh.  You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.

Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?

If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here.  Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on December 17, 2021, 09:44:29 AM
Well, you can flip the script.  "I'm really interested in X.  I've been learning about Y.  I love doing Z.  How about you? What are you enjoying these days?  What's the most interesting/funny/satisfying thing that happened to you this year?  Etc. " Focus on others. And if you don't aren't interested in, learning about or enjoying anything, that's a whole other issue.




For all those here who wish to see me punished for my contrarian views, you will get your wish.

I have to attend a work holiday party with my spouse and will be confronted with the dreaded "so what do you do" question. I never know what to say in these situations and am always embarrassed. Below are some of the answers I have used in the past.

"I figured out how I can afford to do nothing"

"I am a laid off -----"

"I own things that make it so that I can do what I want all day"

"I ski"

"I am a kept husband"

Rest assured I will be uncomfortable for several hours. All here can take delight at my humiliations.
Title: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 17, 2021, 10:03:52 AM
“What do you do?”

Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).

“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”

“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be planting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”

“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”

“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’ve got new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”

“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and boosted. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”

“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “

“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”

Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 10:07:42 AM
You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh.  You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.

Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?

If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here.  Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.

All I can say is that my situation here is akin to running for office. Candidates repeat their message over and over again to an ever-changing audience. I am glad that you are paying attention though.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 10:09:46 AM
“What do you do?”

Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).

“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”

“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”

“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”

“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”

“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”

“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “

“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”

Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.

I appreciate your comments and shall take them to heart. In my case it feels diminished to share my appliance repair accomplishments to a professional. I can literally see their eyes glaze over.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on December 17, 2021, 10:15:28 AM
Very, very cool!  It would be great to hear from other happy FIREES how they answer this question.  I'll start a separate thread.


“What do you do?”

Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).

“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”

“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be planting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”

“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”

“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’ve got new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”

“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and boosted. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”

“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “

“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”

Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 17, 2021, 10:24:10 AM
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.

Skyhigh, can you please explain something to me?  Pretend I have serious reading comprehension issues and you have to dumb down the answer for me because in 4+ pages of this thread and your many, many posts I still don't understand. 

You've said repeatedly things like you posted above, specifically, "when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family."  Are you considering this FIRE?  Because according to the definition most here have, if you are forced to do something to provide for your family then you're not FIREd. 

So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work?  Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved? 

I'm really looking for specific details, like, "In 1994 when I was 45 I was laid off and I had enough to never work again.  I continued to earn zero income for 2 years, at which point I started my repair business."  Or, "from 2003 I sold the business I had built and didn't work for 3 years from ages 52-55, at which point I felt I needed to do something so I started a new business." 

Thanks!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 17, 2021, 10:26:26 AM
“What do you do?”

Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).

“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”

“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”

“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”

“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”

“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”

“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “

“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”

Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.

I appreciate your comments and shall take them to heart. In my case it feels diminished to share my appliance repair accomplishments to a professional. I can literally see their eyes glaze over.

Maybe it is a similar eyes glazing over that I probably get as I enthusiastically mention how cool I think personal finance and investing is. ;)

You don't have to impress other people and while it is nice to have other people like us, as adults we don't need to have our self esteem built around that. That is one of the liberating things about getting older, I find, is that I feel more free to be true to who I am inside and care a lot less about what others think.

Related to that point, I find that people respond instinctively to confidence, or the lack thereof. I think the whole reason you are uncomfortable in those social settings answering "what do you do?" is because of your own discomfort with what you are doing in life, not because of what others actually think of you. Can you try an experiment of "fake it until you make it"? Meaning, talk about whatever it is you have been doing with confidence and enthusiasm, even if you don't feel it inside, and see how people respond.

I'm thinking of @nippycrisp 's journal where he writes about things like when his fat landlord met his hairless cat, or when he was stuck driving in a small car with an irate primate in the backseat that started throwing feces. He has a ton of somewhat embarrassing or uncomfortable stories that are freaking hilarious because he fully leans in and owns it. (And because he is a good story teller). I could completely see myself being humiliated reflecting back on when an animal threw shit at me, or I could also remember it fondly knowing I had the BEST story to tell at the next happy hour. It is all in how you package the same thing.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Sailor Sam on December 17, 2021, 10:35:47 AM
You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh.  You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.

Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?

If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here.  Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.

All I can say is that my situation here is akin to running for office. Candidates repeat their message over and over again to an ever-changing audience. I am glad that you are paying attention though.

There is none but he,
whose being I do fear; and under him
my genius is rebuk’d, as, it is said,
Mark Antony’s was by Caesar.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 10:43:08 AM
You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh.  You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.

Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?

If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here.  Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.

All I can say is that my situation here is akin to running for office. Candidates repeat their message over and over again to an ever-changing audience. I am glad that you are paying attention though.

Have you ever considered that everyone is disagreeing with you because you *might* be able to learn something from us and not the other way around??

It's not that we don't understand you, it's that we don't agree with you because what you are saying is wildly unhealthy.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: youngwildandfree on December 17, 2021, 10:56:07 AM
“What do you do?”

Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).

“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”

“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”

“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”

“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”

“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”

“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “

“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”

Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.

I appreciate your comments and shall take them to heart. In my case it feels diminished to share my appliance repair accomplishments to a professional. I can literally see their eyes glaze over.

@ysette9 thank you for sharing, your last couple of years sounds fantastic!

@Skyhigh I regularly interact with some of the most accomplished scientists in my field. They LOVE discussing home repairs, coffee roasting, workouts, and skiing when at social or networking functions. They have zero interest in discussing someones recent promotion. Just another perspective for you. :)
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 17, 2021, 11:15:21 AM
I have children and you have really overblown the concern. I don't ever discuss what it takes to get ahead at the office, lol, and barely discuss my work at all because it's not appropriate.  They go to school during the day, so they don't know if I'm the office, working from home, or kayaking during the day. Plus we all did school and work from home for a year, so they are used to alternative situations.

When I referred to your ego, I didn't mean professional identity, I meant posting style.  Whatever you are doing, it's not FIRE, so maybe bark up another tree rather than repeating yourself.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on December 17, 2021, 11:24:50 AM
@Skyhigh , two thoughts:

1) You are not FIREd. You have not been FIREd. You were self-employed. So if you don’t even know what FIRE is, how do you expect us to believe you are an expert in it?

2) You are teaching your children some miserable lessons about identity, self-actualization, and finding meaning in life. I know, because my dad was like you. It is an awful thing to see in a parent. Please consider  what they will take away from your life. Maybe watch or read Death of a Salesman.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on December 17, 2021, 11:33:06 AM
@Skyhigh you've posted this in the wrong section. This is not "post-FIRE". It's maybe "ask a mustachian" or the (non-existent) "my life sucks and I want to whine about it but not do anything about it".

It is "post-fired" (not caps). You lost your job, had to take something else to make ends meet, and are throwing yourself a pity party because it's not important enough for someone else.

There's a lot of projection. You wish you had an impressive job title, so you think others care that you don't. You think your life is useless, so you think others think your life is useless.

Not sure why I'm even writing. You've shown over and over again that you are way stuck in your story to listen to anyone else. And you hate the whole idea of (your version of) FIRE that you want to make a business of showing other people how to do it? Yes, let's encourage more people to be unhappy. Sign me up (/s)
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 12:03:09 PM
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.

Skyhigh, can you please explain something to me?  Pretend I have serious reading comprehension issues and you have to dumb down the answer for me because in 4+ pages of this thread and your many, many posts I still don't understand. 

You've said repeatedly things like you posted above, specifically, "when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family."  Are you considering this FIRE?  Because according to the definition most here have, if you are forced to do something to provide for your family then you're not FIREd. 

So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work?  Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved? 

I'm really looking for specific details, like, "In 1994 when I was 45 I was laid off and I had enough to never work again.  I continued to earn zero income for 2 years, at which point I started my repair business."  Or, "from 2003 I sold the business I had built and didn't work for 3 years from ages 52-55, at which point I felt I needed to do something so I started a new business." 

Thanks!

FIRE 20/20

I was laid off in the fall of 2002 as an airline pilot. I had zero ability to find another flying job let alone one that could support a family. I tried to get another job outside of aviation but people looked at me as though I had two heads. I could not even get a job at the grocery store. Employes just thought I was a primadonna airline pilot who was incapable of a real job. As a result, we left the big city and returned to our rural home.

Without employment options, I had to reinvent myself as a general contractor. (construction was my only other work credential) I built a few homes for others before determining that I could build homes for myself as rental investments. Fortunately, we were able to sell our home in the city for a high price and used the equity as seed money to get my investment portfolio underway.  It cost me 65% of the appraised value of a home to build it myself. I was then able to cash-out refinance the property at an 80% loan-to-value, thusly repaying my initial investment plus 15% that I used to live on.

I continued like that building perhaps three homes a year until I was able to speed up the process by also buying existing homes. My target house to buy was one that had been mismanaged by novice investors and refinanced after I had repaired them back to a high standard.  Eventually, the market imploded after 2008, and I had to start over again. While mowing lawns the idea struck that all the vacant and foreclosed homes needed management. I launched a property management company and was able to build it up to a degree to employ several people.

About 6 years ago I was able to resume building new homes again. I guess you can say that I became financially independent the day after my unemployment insurance ran out in 2003. In 2014 I was able to return to part-time work as a pilot. A few years later I secured a full-time compensated position as a corporate pilot that is more like a part-time obligation.

My portfolio of rental homes grew to a point long ago where I could have hired it all out and sat at home. My dream however is to remain gainfully employed until I can't physically do it anymore. Hopefully, I can remain employed in my career objective, but if not, then by mowing lawns.  I have a work ethic, ambition, and drive that I can not shut off.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 12:04:46 PM
@Skyhigh you've posted this in the wrong section. This is not "post-FIRE". It's maybe "ask a mustachian" or the (non-existent) "my life sucks and I want to whine about it but not do anything about it".

It is "post-fired" (not caps). You lost your job, had to take something else to make ends meet, and are throwing yourself a pity party because it's not important enough for someone else.

There's a lot of projection. You wish you had an impressive job title, so you think others care that you don't. You think your life is useless, so you think others think your life is useless.

Not sure why I'm even writing. You've shown over and over again that you are way stuck in your story to listen to anyone else. And you hate the whole idea of (your version of) FIRE that you want to make a business of showing other people how to do it? Yes, let's encourage more people to be unhappy. Sign me up (/s)

I qualify as Financially Independent and Retired Early to the same degree as most here. I have experienced a post-FIRE life since 2002. I could afford to sit at home and do nothing long ago if I choose.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DaTrill on December 17, 2021, 12:37:47 PM
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.

Skyhigh, can you please explain something to me?  Pretend I have serious reading comprehension issues and you have to dumb down the answer for me because in 4+ pages of this thread and your many, many posts I still don't understand. 

You've said repeatedly things like you posted above, specifically, "when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family."  Are you considering this FIRE?  Because according to the definition most here have, if you are forced to do something to provide for your family then you're not FIREd. 

So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work?  Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved? 

I'm really looking for specific details, like, "In 1994 when I was 45 I was laid off and I had enough to never work again.  I continued to earn zero income for 2 years, at which point I started my repair business."  Or, "from 2003 I sold the business I had built and didn't work for 3 years from ages 52-55, at which point I felt I needed to do something so I started a new business." 

Thanks!

FIRE 20/20

I was laid off in the fall of 2002 as an airline pilot. I had zero ability to find another flying job let alone one that could support a family. I tried to get another job outside of aviation but people looked at me as though I had two heads. I could not even get a job at the grocery store. Employes just thought I was a primadonna airline pilot who was incapable of a real job. As a result, we left the big city and returned to our rural home.

Without employment options, I had to reinvent myself as a general contractor. (construction was my only other work credential) I built a few homes for others before determining that I could build homes for myself as rental investments. Fortunately, we were able to sell our home in the city for a high price and used the equity as seed money to get my investment portfolio underway.  It cost me 65% of the appraised value of a home to build it myself. I was then able to cash-out refinance the property at an 80% loan-to-value, thusly repaying my initial investment plus 15% that I used to live on.

I continued like that building perhaps three homes a year until I was able to speed up the process by also buying existing homes. My target house to buy was one that had been mismanaged by novice investors and refinanced after I had repaired them back to a high standard.  Eventually, the market imploded after 2008, and I had to start over again. While mowing lawns the idea struck that all the vacant and foreclosed homes needed management. I launched a property management company and was able to build it up to a degree to employ several people.

About 6 years ago I was able to resume building new homes again. I guess you can say that I became financially independent the day after my unemployment insurance ran out in 2003. In 2014 I was able to return to part-time work as a pilot. A few years later I secured a full-time compensated position as a corporate pilot that is more like a part-time obligation.

My portfolio of rental homes grew to a point long ago where I could have hired it all out and sat at home. My dream however is to remain gainfully employed until I can't physically do it anymore. Hopefully, I can remain employed in my career objective, but if not, then by mowing lawns.  I have a work ethic, ambition, and drive that I can not shut off.

Become a flight trainer, crazy demand now.  Stop whining and feeling sorry for yourself.  Almost everyone has been fired from one or more jobs for reasons that nobody can control (economy/industry shift), for job related performance or office politics (all boxes checked in my case).  You could also probably get a teaching certificate and teach Physics if you like the physics of flight and simple high school level physics. 

I prefer not to drag my dirty laundry into the public but could swap firing stories with almost anyone that I have witnessed and been subject to (a friend in a right to work state was once fired from a high-level corporate job on Friday hours before the office Christmas party that night for example).  When fired, I looked for juicy severance packages and realized my talents were not being properly used at the current employer and moved on.  Having a stash to afford to do anything else (FIRE) was only a positive that allowed flexibility to pursue other opportunities.   Same is true now where my current industry has drastically changed in the last few years and job prospects in this industry have plunged due to the virus, will FIRE for the 6th time in 2022.  Currently trying to max severance from current employer (but bleak as firm and industry are faltering, no deep pockets).

Good luck, hope you find another passion that FIRE allows you to pursue.             
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: seattlecyclone on December 17, 2021, 12:42:21 PM
@Skyhigh you've posted this in the wrong section. This is not "post-FIRE". It's maybe "ask a mustachian" or the (non-existent) "my life sucks and I want to whine about it but not do anything about it".

It is "post-fired" (not caps). You lost your job, had to take something else to make ends meet, and are throwing yourself a pity party because it's not important enough for someone else.

There's a lot of projection. You wish you had an impressive job title, so you think others care that you don't. You think your life is useless, so you think others think your life is useless.

Not sure why I'm even writing. You've shown over and over again that you are way stuck in your story to listen to anyone else. And you hate the whole idea of (your version of) FIRE that you want to make a business of showing other people how to do it? Yes, let's encourage more people to be unhappy. Sign me up (/s)

I qualify as Financially Independent and Retired Early to the same degree as most here. I have experienced a post-FIRE life since 2002. I could afford to sit at home and do nothing long ago if I choose.

Have you ever actually tried to lead a life of leisure and/or volunteering and/or pursuing other meaningful passions? It sounds like you haven't actually done the RE part of FIRE. You've spent your time doing construction and property management, stuff you seem to not find a meaningful use of your time. You keep saying FIRE is such a bad, harmful thing, pointing to your experience not doing FIRE as supporting evidence.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 17, 2021, 01:05:14 PM
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.

Skyhigh, can you please explain something to me?  Pretend I have serious reading comprehension issues and you have to dumb down the answer for me because in 4+ pages of this thread and your many, many posts I still don't understand. 

You've said repeatedly things like you posted above, specifically, "when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family."  Are you considering this FIRE?  Because according to the definition most here have, if you are forced to do something to provide for your family then you're not FIREd. 

So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work?  Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved? 

I'm really looking for specific details, like, "In 1994 when I was 45 I was laid off and I had enough to never work again.  I continued to earn zero income for 2 years, at which point I started my repair business."  Or, "from 2003 I sold the business I had built and didn't work for 3 years from ages 52-55, at which point I felt I needed to do something so I started a new business." 

Thanks!

FIRE 20/20

I was laid off in the fall of 2002 as an airline pilot. I had zero ability to find another flying job let alone one that could support a family. I tried to get another job outside of aviation but people looked at me as though I had two heads. I could not even get a job at the grocery store. Employes just thought I was a primadonna airline pilot who was incapable of a real job. As a result, we left the big city and returned to our rural home.

Without employment options, I had to reinvent myself as a general contractor. (construction was my only other work credential) I built a few homes for others before determining that I could build homes for myself as rental investments. Fortunately, we were able to sell our home in the city for a high price and used the equity as seed money to get my investment portfolio underway.  It cost me 65% of the appraised value of a home to build it myself. I was then able to cash-out refinance the property at an 80% loan-to-value, thusly repaying my initial investment plus 15% that I used to live on.

I continued like that building perhaps three homes a year until I was able to speed up the process by also buying existing homes. My target house to buy was one that had been mismanaged by novice investors and refinanced after I had repaired them back to a high standard.  Eventually, the market imploded after 2008, and I had to start over again. While mowing lawns the idea struck that all the vacant and foreclosed homes needed management. I launched a property management company and was able to build it up to a degree to employ several people.

About 6 years ago I was able to resume building new homes again. I guess you can say that I became financially independent the day after my unemployment insurance ran out in 2003. In 2014 I was able to return to part-time work as a pilot. A few years later I secured a full-time compensated position as a corporate pilot that is more like a part-time obligation.

My portfolio of rental homes grew to a point long ago where I could have hired it all out and sat at home. My dream however is to remain gainfully employed until I can't physically do it anymore. Hopefully, I can remain employed in my career objective, but if not, then by mowing lawns.  I have a work ethic, ambition, and drive that I can not shut off.

*sigh* 

You still didn't answer the question, which was:  "So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work?  Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved?"

From your work summary, it appears you have never been FIREd!  Until 2002 you were a pilot.  After that you were a general contractor.  You were a home builder and possibly a landlord (not clear).  You then mowed lawns, and then you started a property management company.  After that you returned to being a home builder.  You are also a part-time corporate airline pilot. 

Again, the question is - when and how long have you BOTH had enough money to never need to work again, *and* you DID NOT WORK. 

You have never been FIREd, from what I can tell.  It certainly seems like you either have not had enough money to not need to work again, or you have had that much money but you chose to work.  If this isn't the case, please clearly state when you met both criteria - enough money to not work AND actually not working for any income. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 17, 2021, 01:10:37 PM


For all those here who wish to see me punished for my contrarian views, you will get your wish.

I have to attend a work holiday party with my spouse and will be confronted with the dreaded "so what do you do" question. I never know what to say in these situations and am always embarrassed. Below are some of the answers I have used in the past.

"I figured out how I can afford to do nothing"

"I am a laid off -----"

"I own things that make it so that I can do what I want all day"

"I ski"

"I am a kept husband"

Rest assured I will be uncomfortable for several hours. All here can take delight at my humiliations.

Jesus.  The martyrdom is SO thick.

No one wants to see you "punished". 

At a minimum, it would be nice if you could at least acknowledge that what is right (or in this case, wrong) for you isn't necessarily right (or wrong) for everyone.  Instead, you basically said anyone who is FIRE is a bad parent because they are setting a bad example.  That's jsut a lousy, judgmental, small-minded, myopic thing to say, and to be believe. 

If FIRE (which I still maintain you've never actually experienced since you went from your corporate job to your "manual labor" property management job***), isn't a good fit for you, fine.  Don't do it.  Get a job.  But don't yuck someone else's yum.  It's incredibly condescending to suppose that you know better then other people what is best for them, especially when so many here are FIRE and incredibly happy, something you maintain is essentially not possible.  So you can see the truth of their lives better than them, and know better than they do what makes them happy? 

You seem to think that most FIREd people "shut off" their "work ethic, ambition, and drive".  Again, what a small-minded and ignorant view that is.  My dad is in his late 70s.  He serves on the board of his very large HOA, which probably eats up 20 hours a week.  He uses his expertise (data systems management, basically) to help the organization, as well as his leadership skills.  He also does nearly all of the house and yard work, even in his 70s.  He's always out trimming bushes or tearing up the summer plants to prep for winter or pruning a tree or picking lemons.  Or tinkering with the pool equipment or swapping out a dead light fixture.  He works incredibly hard--exercising the work ethic.  Ambition and drive?  Again, there's the HOA thing, and he works hard to continue to be elected the board president.  (This is not your typical HOA.  It is a huge organization with many employees a massive budget, and thousands of homes.) And this is just a small bit of how he spends his time.  He hasn't shut off his "work ethic, ambition, or drive" at all.  And there are so many other like him.  You seem to have this view that retirement means sitting on your backside, watching TV, and playing dominoes, and nothing more. 

**Being able to afford to do nothing makes you FI, but not RE.  If you are regularly working, you aren't Retired.  Just because it is no longer a job with a paycheck from The Man, and instead you work for yourself doesn't make it any less a job. You even referred to the possibility of mowing lawns as "gainfully employed", yet that's what you were doing and you say you were FIREd.  I think you conflate "not working a traditional job for a traditional employer" and "not working at all". Leaving the traditional workforce to be self-employed or an entrepreneur or a property manager is still being part of the workforce.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 01:23:18 PM


For all those here who wish to see me punished for my contrarian views, you will get your wish.

I have to attend a work holiday party with my spouse and will be confronted with the dreaded "so what do you do" question. I never know what to say in these situations and am always embarrassed. Below are some of the answers I have used in the past.

"I figured out how I can afford to do nothing"

"I am a laid off -----"

"I own things that make it so that I can do what I want all day"

"I ski"

"I am a kept husband"

Rest assured I will be uncomfortable for several hours. All here can take delight at my humiliations.

Dude.

People will judge you if they want to judge you.

If you are an unhappy person who is clearly dissatisfied with your own life, they are going to judge you. That's how it works.

Meanwhile, if you lived an AWESOME life and were a really dynamic and interesting person to talk to, no one would judge you for being financially independent.

People are always asking me what I do, and I generally don't bother telling them about my executive volunteer roles because I prefer not to talk about them too much. So instead I talk really enthusiastically about enjoying my leisure time and how great retirement is.

And guess what? I don't get any judgement, I get A LOT of envy. I actually have to remind people that I'm retired due to tragic circumstances because sometimes they get envious to the point that they get a little bitter, so I need to pull it back a bit for them.

So if you are getting negative responses for your life choices it's because YOU aren't happy with those life choices and because you are inviting judgement.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 17, 2021, 01:36:03 PM
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on December 17, 2021, 01:53:25 PM
Wait -- your life was ruined because you were laid off from your first job as a pilot but eventually you got another FT job doing PT work as a pilot and you are still miserable?  Your brain has some serious miswiring going on IMO.

This probably won't help you but gonna post it anyway as maybe it (and the book it comes from) will help somebody else.  Life is too short to wallow in this pit of self-produced crap you seem to be mired in:

https://tim.blog/2021/12/15/the-liberation-of-cosmic-insignificance-therapy/
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 02:35:59 PM
My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.



Skyhigh, can you please explain something to me?  Pretend I have serious reading comprehension issues and you have to dumb down the answer for me because in 4+ pages of this thread and your many, many posts I still don't understand. 

You've said repeatedly things like you posted above, specifically, "when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family."  Are you considering this FIRE?  Because according to the definition most here have, if you are forced to do something to provide for your family then you're not FIREd. 

So my question is, can you tell us approximately when and how long you had sufficient assets that you knew you never needed to work again, *and* after that time how long you had absolutely no income from any kind of work?  Put another way, how long were you earning *zero* income because you had more than enough saved? 

I'm really looking for specific details, like, "In 1994 when I was 45 I was laid off and I had enough to never work again.  I continued to earn zero income for 2 years, at which point I started my repair business."  Or, "from 2003 I sold the business I had built and didn't work for 3 years from ages 52-55, at which point I felt I needed to do something so I started a new business." 

Thanks!

FIRE 20/20

I was laid off in the fall of 2002 as an airline pilot. I had zero ability to find another flying job let alone one that could support a family. I tried to get another job outside of aviation but people looked at me as though I had two heads. I could not even get a job at the grocery store. Employes just thought I was a primadonna airline pilot who was incapable of a real job. As a result, we left the big city and returned to our rural home.

Without employment options, I had to reinvent myself as a general contractor. (construction was my only other work credential) I built a few homes for others before determining that I could build homes for myself as rental investments. Fortunately, we were able to sell our home in the city for a high price and used the equity as seed money to get my investment portfolio underway.  It cost me 65% of the appraised value of a home to build it myself. I was then able to cash-out refinance the property at an 80% loan-to-value, thusly repaying my initial investment plus 15% that I used to live on.

I continued like that building perhaps three homes a year until I was able to speed up the process by also buying existing homes. My target house to buy was one that had been mismanaged by novice investors and refinanced after I had repaired them back to a high standard.  Eventually, the market imploded after 2008, and I had to start over again. While mowing lawns the idea struck that all the vacant and foreclosed homes needed management. I launched a property management company and was able to build it up to a degree to employ several people.

About 6 years ago I was able to resume building new homes again. I guess you can say that I became financially independent the day after my unemployment insurance ran out in 2003. In 2014 I was able to return to part-time work as a pilot. A few years later I secured a full-time compensated position as a corporate pilot that is more like a part-time obligation.

My portfolio of rental homes grew to a point long ago where I could have hired it all out and sat at home. My dream however is to remain gainfully employed until I can't physically do it anymore. Hopefully, I can remain employed in my career objective, but if not, then by mowing lawns.  I have a work ethic, ambition, and drive that I can not shut off.

Become a flight trainer, crazy demand now.  Stop whining and feeling sorry for yourself.  Almost everyone has been fired from one or more jobs for reasons that nobody can control (economy/industry shift), for job related performance or office politics (all boxes checked in my case).  You could also probably get a teaching certificate and teach Physics if you like the physics of flight and simple high school level physics. 

I prefer not to drag my dirty laundry into the public but could swap firing stories with almost anyone that I have witnessed and been subject to (a friend in a right to work state was once fired from a high-level corporate job on Friday hours before the office Christmas party that night for example).  When fired, I looked for juicy severance packages and realized my talents were not being properly used at the current employer and moved on.  Having a stash to afford to do anything else (FIRE) was only a positive that allowed flexibility to pursue other opportunities.   Same is true now where my current industry has drastically changed in the last few years and job prospects in this industry have plunged due to the virus, will FIRE for the 6th time in 2022.  Currently trying to max severance from current employer (but bleak as firm and industry are faltering, no deep pockets).

Good luck, hope you find another passion that FIRE allows you to pursue.             

Thank you for your comment. I have spent three decades in aviation training roles. I have had my fill. It is not the same. My goal was always something else.  To me, it is akin to coaching a hometown T-Ball team or playing for the Yankees. Not the same thing at all. I am well educated, trained, and expreinced.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 02:37:00 PM
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?

People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 02:39:06 PM
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?

People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?

You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 02:40:43 PM
Wait -- your life was ruined because you were laid off from your first job as a pilot but eventually you got another FT job doing PT work as a pilot and you are still miserable?  Your brain has some serious miswiring going on IMO.

This probably won't help you but gonna post it anyway as maybe it (and the book it comes from) will help somebody else.  Life is too short to wallow in this pit of self-produced crap you seem to be mired in:

https://tim.blog/2021/12/15/the-liberation-of-cosmic-insignificance-therapy/

It is not the same thing at all. A mainline career as a pilot pays a livable wage. The other is a working hobby. Not the same. I am very thankful to have the work but it is not the same dream.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 02:42:36 PM
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?

People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?

You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.

Perhaps I am missing something? From my side of the screen, I am answering the questions.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 02:45:04 PM
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?

People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?

You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.

Perhaps I am missing something? From my side of the screen, I am answering the questions.

You 100% have not.

In fact I'm kind of gobsmacked that you think you have answered questions when all you have done is repeat the same party-line over and over and over again without seeming to even notice the many things that people have written.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 02:47:43 PM
Oh this thread! I'm getting all nostalgic for skyhighs other threads now. Seems he/she shows up once a year around Nov or Dec, drops a few Anti-FIRE and my life sucks because of FIRE threads and then moves on. The "expert" at FIRE messiah thing is new but otherwise same old one trick pony.

 While I like cautionary tales and feel they can be very useful to new or wannabe FIREees (and tell them myself) and even very helpful for us long term FIREees, but pontificating that skyhighs experiences are "the One True Experiences" and all other humans will react like he has to FIRE is beyond ridiculous. We are individuals who have different wants, needs and desires and won't succumb to the pitfalls like he say. But the OP seems to be the only one that doesn't get it. Hmmm....maybe there should be a thread for that ;-).

Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.

At present others in my personal life suggest that I conduct some profit-taking and relax a bit. They believe that I should ease up on my dreams and give in to the seductions of FIRE. I need your frank and hard-cutting comments to help me to find my resolve again.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 02:50:11 PM
Oh this thread! I'm getting all nostalgic for skyhighs other threads now. Seems he/she shows up once a year around Nov or Dec, drops a few Anti-FIRE and my life sucks because of FIRE threads and then moves on. The "expert" at FIRE messiah thing is new but otherwise same old one trick pony.

 While I like cautionary tales and feel they can be very useful to new or wannabe FIREees (and tell them myself) and even very helpful for us long term FIREees, but pontificating that skyhighs experiences are "the One True Experiences" and all other humans will react like he has to FIRE is beyond ridiculous. We are individuals who have different wants, needs and desires and won't succumb to the pitfalls like he say. But the OP seems to be the only one that doesn't get it. Hmmm....maybe there should be a thread for that ;-).

Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.

At present others in my personal life suggest that I conduct some profit-taking and relax a bit. They believe that I should ease up on my dreams and give in to the seductions of FIRE. I need your frank and hard-cutting comments to help me to find my resolve again.

Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.

You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.

So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 02:51:20 PM
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?

People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?


You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.

Perhaps I am missing something? From my side of the screen, I am answering the questions.

You 100% have not.

In fact I'm kind of gobsmacked that you think you have answered questions when all you have done is repeat the same party-line over and over and over again without seeming to even notice the many things that people have written.


Malcat,

Because I cherish and respect you so much I will carefully go back through all the comments and see what I have missed. However, I ask for you to consider that I am crafting these replies between meetings and other work duties. Often the responses I receive exceed my ability to properly comprehend and reply to them all. Often it seems that one answer would suffice for three questions.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 02:56:59 PM
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?

People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?


You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.

Perhaps I am missing something? From my side of the screen, I am answering the questions.

You 100% have not.

In fact I'm kind of gobsmacked that you think you have answered questions when all you have done is repeat the same party-line over and over and over again without seeming to even notice the many things that people have written.


Malcat,

Because I cherish and respect you so much I will carefully go back through all the comments and see what I have missed. However, I ask for you to consider that I am crafting these replies between meetings and other work duties. Often the responses I receive exceed my ability to properly comprehend and reply to them all. Often it seems that one answer would suffice for three questions.

I'm not buying it.

To me it seems clear that you are totally resistant to any possible interpretation other than your own. You seem totally determined to believe that you are a victim of your life and that there's nothing that could possibly be done to improve it, and that it's all the fault of you being laid off and then making a lot of money.

Then you like to blame the fact that NO ONE here agrees with you on us being...what? Ignorant? Outliers? Not "experts" like you?

You have repeatedly implied that the rest of us somehow lack perspective that you alone seem to have.

To me, a wise person would face a virtual room full of people who you claim to "respect" and in the face of an absolute onslaught of challenges to your thinking, which has been consistent over YEARS, would take the time and put in the effort to lean WHY everyone says that your perspective sounds so irrational.

It's honestly baffling. Like truly, truly baffling.

I've been here a long time and I've never seen anything as bizarre as this thread.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 17, 2021, 02:59:54 PM
...My goal is to strive to become my best self....

And you are failing at that miserably.  Will you consider that I might have something to teach you here?  If I am reading you right, you are not actually close minded.  People who study intelligence, success, and other related concepts now recognize *at least* 7 different areas of achievement, intellect, etc.  You are very fixated on a single element.  And it is causing you to fail BIG TIME at <emotional> satisfaction/success/maturity.  (I maintain this is a spiritual maturity issue.)  I know you see yourself as hard working or at least intending to be hard working with a good work ethic.  But on the very necessary emotional work we all need to do you are being enormously fucking lazy.  (Sorry, if that was too harsh, but I think you need to be confronted with that.)  Don't think your children pick up that at least subconsciously?  You are training them to become existentially miserable adults.  If you can't do 'inner work' for yourself; do it for them. 

There are other success/intelligence areas that are important to master as well, kinesthetic, musical, numerical, spatial, interpersonal, intrapersonal,  etc.  No wonder you feel unfulfilled if you lack mastery in 6 of the 7 (or more) areas of human achievement!  Adopting a faith and practice should get you ticking off more of the boxes.  But if you want to remain completely secular, the ancient faith based tools that humans developed over 40,000 years have been recreated in modern format through the science of psychology.  In my opinion, Jung does the best job of identifying tools for intrapersonal development.  You might prefer a different psych school of thought though. 

... A version that provides service to others through the contribution of my best abilities...

Yes, I see that.  You have a spirit for service and probably for teaching.  But the best of your abilities has a very narrow scope.  I (and others here) are trying to offer you the opportunity to develop a broader scope of skills, abilities, intelligences, perspectives, mindsets, approaches, etc. so that if service is what matters, you can provide more comprehensive service and education.  You've been gifted an enormous opportunity to develop yourself into a superstar provider of service to mankind.  But instead of taking action, you are wallowing in misery and just sort of kvetching.  And that doesn't speak well as to your character. Do you understand that is what spiritual immaturity looks like?  Do you understand that leads to being ineffective at service?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 03:00:42 PM


So what would make you happy and why aren't you doing it???

pulling together a band of merry pitty partiers its quite clear until someone agrees with what he's saying he'll just continue to post the same thing over and over and fucking over again.

Ah, you are too cynical.

I keep poking to see if there's a purchase point within this thick armour of victim identity. I might find one, I might not, but it's interesting regardless.

I get the feeling that many here are not parents. I have nothing to base it on other than expressed opinions and attitudes. The example that I provide my children is much of what drives me.

I concede that my ego is very much invested in my professional accomplishments, goals, and dreams. My career high watermark fell short of my aspirations. Most of it was due to a poor job market but a lot due to the allure of easy living through FIRE. I do blame FIRE for robbing me of my motivation, and why wouldn't it? Working at the convenience of others is a drag. It is hard to have to get up early and drive to a menial position in hopes that it will bare fruit in a decade or two. Employment sucks,, right?

My whole young life I resisted the allure of easy living through FIRE, but when my professional end came I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family. It was like falling into what I was meant to do all along. I did not save my way to get here. Professional entry-level jobs don't provide enough to save anything. I built my real estate empire with my two hands from scratch. My early days of FIRE were hard and full of grotesque manual labor but I was able to quickly create a situation for myself where I did not have to work for someone else anymore.

Besides the bruised ego my issue is with my children. My grandfather was a decorated officer in the Navy during WWII. My father was one of the first aerospace engineers in the nation and is credited with many advances in the space program. As a child growing up in the shadows of these accomplished people my expectations and goals were formed through their example. I believe that our children pattern much of their self-esteem and life expectations from what we do. As a result, I am not comfortable with my accomplishments.

I still provide a manual labor function to my business because it gives me something to do and my kids get to see me work. My hope was to have been able to return to my chosen field and provide a different example, but it is not so easy to voluntarily stick one's head back into the noose of employment. My wife completed her college degree and started her career once the kids were all in school. She could sit at home too.

As I have mentioned before I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history.  It is especially harmful to young people. I don't believe that it provides a good example for children who will pattern their expectations on what they see their parents doing with their time and gifts. I base these findings upon the study of generations of my family and from the results of my clients. I am an expert at FIRE and it comes with a downside. Everything does.

AGAIN you ignored what I posted.

Are you doing this on purpose, because it's really fucking rude.

Did you just not read the part about how people in retirement can take on all sorts of important roles and responsibilities if they want to?

Also, my father was unemployed for most of my childhood. He had made a lot of money and then didn't work for years. He was an EXCELLENT model for me because he was very present, very involved, challenged me constantly, held me to a very high intellectual standard. We spent a TON of time together, and almost all of our quality time together consisted of being heavily involved in community service.

And guess what, I retained a strong sense of community responsibility, which is why I have a lifetime of high end volunteer work, which is why in retirement, it's so easy for me to get very elite level volunteer roles where I make an important impact on the world.

You COULD do the same thing, but you choose not to, so what example does that set for your kid?
You are setting the example that their only value will be their job title, and that's some toxic shit.

For the record, I have mentored many, many young people and had to deprogram this corporate success bullshit from them to free them up to be able to make better professional decisions for themselves.

Modeling for a kid that the only way to have value and be happy is to be employed by a company that doesn't care about them is...concerning.

Malcat,

I do not accept volunteerism as an adequate form of employment. As I mentioned before I spent a lot of wasted years volunteering for a lot of things. I was on various boards, I was a volunteer firefighter, I worked for advocates for the homeless, I have been a volunteer for the Forest Service.

I also have worked a couple of hobby jobs, ski chair lift operator, flight instructor, adjunct professor. 

I spent way too much time taking unnecessary college classes to fill the time. I am bored of it all. It shouldn't happen to someone until they are much older. In my experience filling the time with useless hobbies and volunteerism is not the same at all as a well-paying meaningful career where you can make a difference.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 03:07:08 PM
“What do you do?”

Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).

“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”

“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”

“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”

“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”

“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”

“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “

“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”

Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.

I appreciate your comments and shall take them to heart. In my case it feels diminished to share my appliance repair accomplishments to a professional. I can literally see their eyes glaze over.

Maybe it is a similar eyes glazing over that I probably get as I enthusiastically mention how cool I think personal finance and investing is. ;)

You don't have to impress other people and while it is nice to have other people like us, as adults we don't need to have our self esteem built around that. That is one of the liberating things about getting older, I find, is that I feel more free to be true to who I am inside and care a lot less about what others think.

Related to that point, I find that people respond instinctively to confidence, or the lack thereof. I think the whole reason you are uncomfortable in those social settings answering "what do you do?" is because of your own discomfort with what you are doing in life, not because of what others actually think of you. Can you try an experiment of "fake it until you make it"? Meaning, talk about whatever it is you have been doing with confidence and enthusiasm, even if you don't feel it inside, and see how people respond.

I'm thinking of @nippycrisp 's journal where he writes about things like when his fat landlord met his hairless cat, or when he was stuck driving in a small car with an irate primate in the backseat that started throwing feces. He has a ton of somewhat embarrassing or uncomfortable stories that are freaking hilarious because he fully leans in and owns it. (And because he is a good story teller). I could completely see myself being humiliated reflecting back on when an animal threw shit at me, or I could also remember it fondly knowing I had the BEST story to tell at the next happy hour. It is all in how you package the same thing.

Sure, in the big picture none of it matters, right?  It is the little things that we remember. We are in charge of our story. We get to decide how to tell it. I appreciate your comments. It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard.

“Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.”

― Ernest Hemingway, The Garden of Eden
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 17, 2021, 03:09:08 PM
I've done every job in the universe. If I can't be Thor I may be dead!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 17, 2021, 03:10:56 PM
Oh now I get it you want to be smart so you have to be unhappy per a quote from Hemingway.

Got it. I agree with you and will throw myself into this FIRE so that I may too be unhappy like you.  Thus proving my superior intelligence to all thee common folk.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 17, 2021, 03:14:55 PM
...My goal is to strive to become my best self....

And you are failing at that miserably.  Will you consider that I might have something to teach you here?  If I am reading you right, you are not actually close minded.  People who study intelligence, success, and other related concepts now recognize *at least* 7 different areas of achievement, intellect, etc.  You are very fixated on a single element.  And it is causing you to fail BIG TIME at <emotional> satisfaction/success/maturity.  (I maintain this is a spiritual maturity issue.)  I know you see yourself as hard working or at least intending to be hard working with a good work ethic.  But on the very necessary emotional work we all need to do you are being enormously fucking lazy.  (Sorry, if that was too harsh, but I think you need to be confronted with that.)  Don't think your children pick up that at least subconsciously?  You are training them to become existentially miserable adults.  If you can't do 'inner work' for yourself; do it for them. 

There are other success/intelligence areas that are important to master as well, kinesthetic, musical, numerical, spatial, interpersonal, intrapersonal,  etc.  No wonder you feel unfulfilled if you lack mastery in 6 of the 7 (or more) areas of human achievement!  Adopting a faith and practice should get you ticking off more of the boxes.  But if you want to remain completely secular, the ancient faith based tools that humans developed over 40,000 years have been recreated in modern format through the science of psychology.  In my opinion, Jung does the best job of identifying tools for intrapersonal development.  You might prefer a different psych school of thought though. 

... A version that provides service to others through the contribution of my best abilities...

Yes, I see that.  You have a spirit for service and probably for teaching.  But the best of your abilities has a very narrow scope.  I (and others here) are trying to offer you the opportunity to develop a broader scope of skills, abilities, intelligences, perspectives, mindsets, approaches, etc. so that if service is what matters, you can provide more comprehensive service and education.  You've been gifted an enormous opportunity to develop yourself into a superstar provider of service to mankind.  But instead of taking action, you are wallowing in misery and just sort of kvetching.  And that doesn't speak well as to your character. Do you understand that is what spiritual immaturity looks like?  Do you understand that leads to being ineffective at service?

Thanks FV,

I will take a look at Jung. I am not as intellectual as many of you here though.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 17, 2021, 03:18:10 PM
Pete had a friend rePete what was Pete's friends name?

People keep asking me the same questions over and over again. What am I supposed to do? Tell them to search the thread?

You could actually answer the questions that people are asking instead of avoiding every hard question that you obviously don't want to answer.

Perhaps I am missing something? From my side of the screen, I am answering the questions.

Wow.  Just wow.  It's actually amazing how thoroughly you've avoided answering any questions directly, yet you're claiming to answer them.  I'm ... stunned, I guess... by the ability to be totally unreceptive to any input and yet able to keep coming back.  I'd think at some point you'd slip up and consider what someone had written, but so far it seems you're batting 1.000 at ignoring input.  Kudos for that I guess. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on December 17, 2021, 03:23:43 PM
“What do you do?”

Here are ways I could answer that question from the first 1.5 years of FIRE under admittedly unusual circumstances (Covid).

“I am really enjoying learning to bake my own bread. I’m mastering one recipe and now I’ve started grinding my own wheat to make fresh flour. Pretty cool to learn about all the variables that go into it. I hadn’t even known there was such a thing as dough enhancer until recently!”

“My husband is exploring gardening with local edibles plants. Come February he will be pms ting a veritable forest of fruiting trees and berry bushes. I figure I’ll have to learn canning in another year or two once the harvests start coming in.”

“We are remodeling an old house we recently bought. It feels empowering all the new skills I am picking up from YouTube videos and just giving it a try. The second time we replaced the kitchen faucet was a lot easier than the first time!”

“A friend got me indoor bouldering. It is like rock climbing but without the ropes. I’m new muscles as a result and I find it is a lot of fun, like a giant jungle gym at the park but for adults.”

“My husband has decided to get back into learning Brazilian ju jitsu now that he is vaccinated and booster. I suspect he will be complaining soon about aches and pains he didn’t have when he was 18, but I know it makes him happy.”

“I managed to teach my kid to read in French over the Covid shutdown. I was impressed with her effort and how well she is doing now. It is cool to see her take to books as quickly as I did as a kid. “

“I never learned cursive as a kid so on a whim I picked up a French kid workbook for learning and taught myself. It was surprisingly meditative in that I only focused on the paper and pencil in front of me, making the same slow, deliberate motions again and again. The result is pretty cool and I’m proud of myself for having finally done something that was always a bit of a mystery to me.”

Life is so interesting. There are cool things to learn and great ways to get outside and move your body. I feel blessed that we get this time to pursue these activities.

I appreciate your comments and shall take them to heart. In my case it feels diminished to share my appliance repair accomplishments to a professional. I can literally see their eyes glaze over.

Maybe it is a similar eyes glazing over that I probably get as I enthusiastically mention how cool I think personal finance and investing is. ;)

You don't have to impress other people and while it is nice to have other people like us, as adults we don't need to have our self esteem built around that. That is one of the liberating things about getting older, I find, is that I feel more free to be true to who I am inside and care a lot less about what others think.

Related to that point, I find that people respond instinctively to confidence, or the lack thereof. I think the whole reason you are uncomfortable in those social settings answering "what do you do?" is because of your own discomfort with what you are doing in life, not because of what others actually think of you. Can you try an experiment of "fake it until you make it"? Meaning, talk about whatever it is you have been doing with confidence and enthusiasm, even if you don't feel it inside, and see how people respond.

I'm thinking of @nippycrisp 's journal where he writes about things like when his fat landlord met his hairless cat, or when he was stuck driving in a small car with an irate primate in the backseat that started throwing feces. He has a ton of somewhat embarrassing or uncomfortable stories that are freaking hilarious because he fully leans in and owns it. (And because he is a good story teller). I could completely see myself being humiliated reflecting back on when an animal threw shit at me, or I could also remember it fondly knowing I had the BEST story to tell at the next happy hour. It is all in how you package the same thing.

Sure, in the big picture none of it matters, right?  It is the little things that we remember. We are in charge of our story. We get to decide how to tell it. I appreciate your comments. It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard.

“Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.”

― Ernest Hemingway, The Garden of Eden

So it's your failure that bugs you not FIRE then right? The failure was in fact independent of FIRE and had nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 03:24:38 PM
Malcat,

I do not accept volunteerism as an adequate form of employment. As I mentioned before I spent a lot of wasted years volunteering for a lot of things. I was on various boards, I was a volunteer firefighter, I worked for advocates for the homeless, I have been a volunteer for the Forest Service.

I also have worked a couple of hobby jobs, ski chair lift operator, flight instructor, adjunct professor. 

I spent way too much time taking unnecessary college classes to fill the time. I am bored of it all. It shouldn't happen to someone until they are much older. In my experience filling the time with useless hobbies and volunteerism is not the same at all as a well-paying meaningful career where you can make a difference.

And as I said before, if you haven't had a chance to volunteer at the elite corporate level, then that's just because you've never figured out how.

I hold two volunteer roles that are *exactly* like executive corporate professional roles. These are roles that other professionals compete to get into because they are so valuable and respected in the professional world. My unpaid work handles larger budgets and puts me in a position of more power and influence than my previous paid work.

I negotiate multi million dollar contracts, I get constantly wined and dined by presidents and VPs of other major corporations because they want access to me, and I've been involved in brokering serious moves within my industry. A lot of my work is VERY meaningful, and I have really thrived since retiring because I'm the only executive on my boards who has the time to dedicate to the work, which means that charters have been changed for me to be able to be president longer than I was supposed to, because I get important shit done.

Your beliefs are quite simply inaccurate and factually wrong.

There's a reason the very wealthy of this world compete ferociously for the best volunteer roles. There's a whole WORLD of executive volunteering that goes hand in hand with the corporate world. You just aren't aware of it.

ETA: my work within the executive volunteer world is also how I can easily turn around and get a different professional job at any point if I want to. I'm constantly being recruited by companies in totally different industries. I got recruited by a high end finance firm and was paid to give very wealthy people financial advice without even being qualified as a financial advisor or planner. That was fun for awhile, but I got bored with it, so I moved on to other projects, because it really is THAT EASY to engineer a new opportunity for yourself if you know how to.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 17, 2021, 03:26:47 PM
Dammmmmnnnnnn
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 17, 2021, 03:37:13 PM
Thanks FV,

I will take a look at Jung. I am not as intellectual as many of you here though.

May the diety of your choice bless you mightily.  Best of luck on your inward journey!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 17, 2021, 05:18:33 PM
It's time to quit this troll, folks.  He may not consider himself to be one, but he's definitely trolling.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: MoseyingAlong on December 17, 2021, 05:38:00 PM

Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...

Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.

You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.

So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?

@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.

For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.

Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?

Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.

Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.

EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: sui generis on December 17, 2021, 06:20:16 PM
You keep repeating the same thing over and over here, skyhigh.  You say your goal here is to help us all learn this, as though you are going to lift some veil from our benighted eyes. And yet, that is not happening.

Your posts are extremely redundant and if anything everyone here is getting less receptive to your arguments which seem less and less credible the more you repeatedly make them in the exact same way. So I ask you, what are you really trying to accomplish here?

If it is as you say, as I reference above, would you perhaps reconsider your approach? Because at this point, not only are you not succeeding at your goal, but if anything I think you are turning people further away by your approach. Every redundant post you make is just another nail in the coffin of the goal you had hoped to accomplish by posting here.  Please do reconsider and while you are doing so go look up that old cliche definition of insanity.

All I can say is that my situation here is akin to running for office. Candidates repeat their message over and over again to an ever-changing audience. I am glad that you are paying attention though.

Man, you have a skewed view of politics.  Your situation is akin to running for office only inasmuch as you intend to be a very bad politican that always loses.  Because politicians (even pretty bad ones or ones that run pretty bad campaigns, like Terry McAuliffe's gubernatorial campaign this year in VA) don't just keep repeating the same message and expect to win.  They have communications firms that field test their messages and massage them and test them again and they certainly don't persist when there is good evidence in front of them that the target voters they need to vote for them to win are wholly rejecting them.  That's what's akin to what you are doing now.  And like the bad politician you are imitating, you are losing this election, man.   If you'd like to be akin to a good politician, or even a moderately bad one, do go ahead and consult with a communications firm about your messaging and I'm confiident you'll get an earful on your approach here.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 17, 2021, 07:03:39 PM

Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...

Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.

You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.

So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?

@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.

For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.

Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?

Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.

Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.

EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.

I have.

Doing work on internal vs external locus of control, getting good therapy. Also consider mindfulness meditation and CBT activities.

OP at any point could have asked me about this after I shared how I managed to mourn losing my career that I loved and the loss of a lot of the function of my body, but he doesn't seem very interested.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 17, 2021, 07:21:38 PM

Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...

Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.

You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.

So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?

@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.

For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.

Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?

Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.

Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.

EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.

I have.

Doing work on internal vs external locus of control, getting good therapy. Also consider mindfulness meditation and CBT activities.

OP at any point could have asked me about this after I shared how I managed to mourn losing my career that I loved and the loss of a lot of the function of my body, but he doesn't seem very interested.

I'll go.  I lost my career when I became a trailing spouse and moved overseas.  I had a choice, but that choice would have been "live apart from my spouse for 2.5 years" (which turned out to be about 10 years) and that just wasn't viable.

It's been hard.  We don't have children.  I was always a career person.  And then... I wasn't.

I spent a lot of time reframing.  What was important to me?  What did I think made someone a good human?  What did I truly value?  I asked these questions, and with each answer I asked "why" or "how" or some other question that dug to a deeper, more philosophical place.  And that really helped me see what I valued, and who I wanted to be as a person--what mark I wanted to make on the world.  It turns out that none of the answers had anything to do with employment, and a lot of my struggles were more about ego than actual fulfillment from work.  I'd made a lot out of being a "career woman".  That was my plan for my life.  So when it went away, I floundered a bit, and my ego was left a bit unanchored, until I found new, more meaningful things to anchor it to.  It's tough to articulate exactly how that happened, but it was just  lot of self-questioning, and refusing to accepts my mind's lazy, automatic responses. 

~~~

OP, if you were laid off from the airlines (not fired or let go for cause), why don't you go back?  They are hiring like crazy.  There was a bit of a pause during the height of Covid, but they are once again scooping up every semi-qualified body.  So why not go back to the airlines?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: MoseyingAlong on December 17, 2021, 09:56:49 PM
...
Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.
...

I'll go.  I lost my career when I became a trailing spouse and moved overseas.  I had a choice, but that choice would have been "live apart from my spouse for 2.5 years" (which turned out to be about 10 years) and that just wasn't viable.

It's been hard.  We don't have children.  I was always a career person.  And then... I wasn't.

I spent a lot of time reframing.  What was important to me?  What did I think made someone a good human?  What did I truly value?  I asked these questions, and with each answer I asked "why" or "how" or some other question that dug to a deeper, more philosophical place.  And that really helped me see what I valued, and who I wanted to be as a person--what mark I wanted to make on the world.  It turns out that none of the answers had anything to do with employment, and a lot of my struggles were more about ego than actual fulfillment from work.  I'd made a lot out of being a "career woman".  That was my plan for my life.  So when it went away, I floundered a bit, and my ego was left a bit unanchored, until I found new, more meaningful things to anchor it to.  It's tough to articulate exactly how that happened, but it was just  lot of self-questioning, and refusing to accepts my mind's lazy, automatic responses. 
....

Thanks @Villanelle
That's very helpful. I have some work to do.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 18, 2021, 01:36:57 PM
...
Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.
...

I'll go.  I lost my career when I became a trailing spouse and moved overseas.  I had a choice, but that choice would have been "live apart from my spouse for 2.5 years" (which turned out to be about 10 years) and that just wasn't viable.

It's been hard.  We don't have children.  I was always a career person.  And then... I wasn't.

I spent a lot of time reframing.  What was important to me?  What did I think made someone a good human?  What did I truly value?  I asked these questions, and with each answer I asked "why" or "how" or some other question that dug to a deeper, more philosophical place.  And that really helped me see what I valued, and who I wanted to be as a person--what mark I wanted to make on the world.  It turns out that none of the answers had anything to do with employment, and a lot of my struggles were more about ego than actual fulfillment from work.  I'd made a lot out of being a "career woman".  That was my plan for my life.  So when it went away, I floundered a bit, and my ego was left a bit unanchored, until I found new, more meaningful things to anchor it to.  It's tough to articulate exactly how that happened, but it was just  lot of self-questioning, and refusing to accepts my mind's lazy, automatic responses. 
....

Thanks @Villanelle
That's very helpful. I have some work to do.

I'm glad it resonated with you!  Good luck.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lutorm on December 19, 2021, 03:03:01 AM
I'm sorry, I don't get it. You say you never have to work for money again, that people shouldn't retire because this deprives the world of highly intelligent people it needs, and that you are unhappy and not feeling like you are doing valuable work. Yet you are mowing lawns? Why are you depriving the world of your skills by mowing lawns when a) you don't need the money, b) you think people have a responsibility of applying themselves to better the world, and c) it's making you unhappy?

It would seem that, not having the requirement of making money to live, you are free to figure out how to best serve the world and then go ahead and do it. I mean, what's stopping you?

Don't give me some line about the only valuable work is what you get paid for because, frankly, most of what people are paid to do is definitely not what the world needs.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 19, 2021, 12:59:29 PM
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 19, 2021, 01:04:56 PM

Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...

Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.

You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.

So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?

@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.

For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.

Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?

Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.

Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.

EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.

I have.

Doing work on internal vs external locus of control, getting good therapy. Also consider mindfulness meditation and CBT activities.

OP at any point could have asked me about this after I shared how I managed to mourn losing my career that I loved and the loss of a lot of the function of my body, but he doesn't seem very interested.

Malcat,

I am interested and am very happy that you were able to find some peace. Perhaps you could try and put yourself into my situation? Besides, CBD and counseling are all taboo and illegal in my career objective.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 19, 2021, 01:19:48 PM
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on December 19, 2021, 01:53:12 PM
You're not at all wrong that comfort with white collar norms is important in succeeding in many workplaces and careers and your analysis of how your background has affected your choices, actual and psychological, is very valid.

Ask A Manager blog has written several times about this issue, e.g.
https://www.askamanager.org/2012/12/ask-the-readers-what-cultural-things-do-you-need-to-know-in-a-white-collar-environment.html as have many other popular and academic sites, e.g. https://hbr.org/2016/11/what-so-many-people-dont-get-about-the-u-s-working-class

You might want to check out Limbo: Blue-Collar Roots, White-Collar Dreams by Alfred Lubrano for good insights into how hard it is to move between social milieus.

HOWEVER, this isn't a FIRE challenge, for you or for any others you want to teach/warn/advise.  It is an understanding yourself challenge, accepting the hand you're dealt challenge, and doing the work to be happier challenge. You need to be heard and acknowledged and to reframe your life story for yourself, which objectively seems to include a lot of success.  A good counselor can help you with that.

Good luck and I hope when you post next year it will be to report that you've found a way to integrate your history, issues, and challenges to move toward inner peace and happiness. Then you really will have something to teach others.


I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 19, 2021, 01:58:48 PM
People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

You have made it clear that you have never actually FIREd.  See the questions that I've asked repeatedly that you won't answer.  If you have actually FIREd why not answer my question?


It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite.
...

This is not true.  If you think it is true, where is the evidence for it?  Large numbers of people here and many of my real-life FIRE friends grew up in working class families. 

What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

The reason you're getting the responses that you're interpreting this way is that you are coming to a place where people have happily achieved and are living as early retirees, and you are saying insulting things that we know to be false.  You have come to us with little but insults, such as, "FIRE at a young age leads to self-destructive behavior in my experience. FIRE at an older age accelerates the decrepitude process. People tend to stop challenging themselves. They stop growing. Bad habits creep in."  and "A lack of purpose is one. Endless wasted days are another. The devaluation of the freedoms accomplished is everpresent. Being out of sync with the rest of the world is lonely and often sad. People outside of FIRE hold a grudge against us. It can be difficult to maintain friendships. "

We who have experienced FIRE, unlike you, have real knowledge that those things DO NOT HAPPEN to most people who FIRE. 

If you come to a forum for people who love puppies and you start out by saying that puppies are terrible, what kind of a response do you expect to get?  If you then explain that you've never had puppies and say that puppies are terrible because they shoot laser beams from their eyes and kill children then people will explain to you that no, that is not something that puppies do.  And they'll probably call you an idiot.  Because when you tell people with real, actual experience with something that you know - despite never having experienced that thing - that it's terrible then people with real knowledge will get really frustrated talking with you. 

For 6 pages you have repeated incorrect statements and you seem impervious to changing your beliefs when presented with evidence that they're wrong.  When people try to help you find the real problem you ignore them.  Lost of people here have put in time and effort to help improve your life but you're rejecting it.  What do you expect the response to be when you behave that way?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 19, 2021, 02:00:01 PM
@Skyhigh

Maybe I'm an outlier but I'm not from any sort of elite background. I'm white/Caucasian and have that source of privilege but have none of the other things you think are essential to corporate success.

My mother grew up poor and migratory (I honestly believe grandma and grandpa were "running from the law") rarely spending more than 6 weeks in any one town.  Grandparents were both alcoholics.  My father didn't finish 8th grade (dropped out, lied to a Navy recruiter about his age and became a sailor).  He grew up in deep poverty in rural Louisiana and worked manual labor jobs all his life.  I was not so poor that I ever missed a meal and I always had shoes and winter coat to wear.  But I was poor enough that I had a Christmas where there was money for gifts for my brother but not for me.  We re-wrapped things I already owned and put them under the tree to put on a show for my brother. 

I was the first in my extended family to go to college.  I had to pay my own way through and I didn't have the historical family knowledge of how to get scholarships/internships/etc.  So I worked my ass off at minimum wage or barely better jobs and took 8 years to get a 4 year degree.  Since, I had worked exclusively for a time and attended school exclusively for a time, I discovered unstructured time was very valuable to me.  I was an Economics major and worked well with spreadsheets and modeled out a 10 year retirement plan.  I like to say I "failed well" because it took me 14 years.

I didn't know anyone in the corporate world or even anyone in the class of construction trades that was well off enough to own their trucks.  I didn't know how to properly comport myself at corporate social functions.  And I am weird, and awkward, and anxious, and have weird facial tics because I have Tourette's Syndrome.  But I ascended far enough up into the ranks to be placed on the "insider roster".  I rubbed elbows with the C-suite every quarter end (they were dependent on my analysis for the earnings call).  It was clear I wasn't one of "them" but they let me into their circle because I was useful.

Respectfully, (really - with RESPECT), I feel like I have NOT judged you or attacked you.  Sure, confronted you, out of concern for your needs.  I believe I have cared for you and tried to help you.  (Agree?)  You are against counseling but you could do some non counseling things that recenter your locus of control.  You could take up a meditation practice (5 minutes a day does wonders).  You could do a Core Values study - discover what makes you tick; and start taking positive steps to live your life according to your values.  You strike me as Agnostic so Scripture study is probably not appropriate. But you can study (and apply) Jung.  And you can read Thoreau's "Walden".  That is a cherished piece of American literature that is very FIRE appropriate.  I'll give you a hint for interpretation.  It isn't about a man who goes into the woods to fiddle fart around.  It's about a man who goes into HIMSELF (mostly to fiddle fart around.)  Therein, he finds his own personal truth and beauty.  There is a great deal of emotional/psychological/spiritual value in idle self introspection and reflection.  "Above all else this: Know Thyself." 

I've been RE for 9.5 years (since age 40).  And while, I'm not delighted like many here claim to be, I have a very deep sense of contentment.  Accounting never became my identity, was not who I was; it was something I did for money (b/c I was good at it) and it provided enough financial surplus to save for an exit to the unstructured time that is necessary for my happiness.

Again, respectfully, there are some important life lessons you are completely missing out on and some important intra-personal skills you lack.  Learnable skills.  Being stuck in misery for 20 years is not healthy.  I'll add that being stuck in misery for 20 years is also a CHOICE.  And for an American it is really wasteful of the very special opportunities you have been given. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 19, 2021, 02:06:00 PM
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.

Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.

You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.

I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.

In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.

You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.

So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 19, 2021, 02:14:07 PM
Pilot hiring is at crazy high levels.  I have a chart that I can't get to post correctly but the Majors, Legacies, and Cargo are expected to hire ~10,000 people in 2022.  And the regionals even more than that.  If it is your dream, do it.  But it sounds to me more like you enjoy being a martyr to your dream than actually having it.  You enjoy wallowing in the mess of all the barriers to that dream. 

And yeah, CBT (aka "therapy"  not "the stuff made from marijuana" ) is perfectly allowed for pilots. 

And are you 65 years old?  No?  Then you aren't too old. 

You have excuse after excuse.  And if you look at those things and think they are too unsurmountable or unpleasant, there's nothing wrong with that.  But in that case, you should embrace the fact that you are *Choosing* not to do that thing.  It's not some uncontrollable force that has plowed you over.  You are making a choice because while there are things about that job that appeal to you, there are more things that detract from it.  That doesn't mean you can't feel disappointment, but focus on the reasons you step away from it and the upsides.  Maybe you don't want to be away from family, especially while you wait to get back up in seniority and pick your routes.  Maybe you don't want to move your family or do the "fly to my route" thing.  Whatever they are, you are *choosing* something other than that, and that's what you should focus on, not what you don't have. 

Don't make yourself a martyr to your own choices.  It's a recipe for unhappiness, and based on your posts, you've prepared that dish to perfection. 



Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: shuffler on December 19, 2021, 03:06:41 PM
As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.  I eagerly await your arrows.
For never was a story of more woe, than this of Skyhigh, the non-CEO.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 19, 2021, 03:22:12 PM
I’ve had jobs that have required security clearances (Secret, TS/SCI) and counseling has not been a problem. It was something I acknowledged on background applications and as long as it was related to “grief“ I never got a second question.

I think l understand more where the OP is coming from and what the problem is. This doesn’t have anything to do with FIRE at all but it is class envy and a sense of missing dreams. OP grew up blue collar and had dreams of becoming white collar. “White collar” being defined by his own definition that includes a high powered corporate career. He feels like FIRE isn’t the reward after working and saving but missing out on the white collar dream and getting sent back to a blue collar existence.

I don’t have anything useful for that except to reiterate what everyone else has been saying: go talk to a professional. Maybe you can work through this and get to a point of figuring out how to get what you’ve wanted or learning to be happy with the great things you have achieved and the enviable you are already in.

Perhaps it is a class thing where white collar people feel more comfortable not having looking rich or professional from the outside, like Mark Zuckerberg bumming around in hjs hoodies because he knows he is rich and successful? I know I had big desires for nice clothes and name brand purses and all of that when I had no money to my name. The more my net worth grows the more I want to wear yoga pants and socks with holes in them and just not care what anyone thinks.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 19, 2021, 03:28:41 PM
I’ve had jobs that have required security clearances (Secret, TS/SCI) and counseling has not been a problem. It was something I acknowledged on background applications and as long as it was related to “grief“ I never got a second question.

I think l understand more where the OP is coming from and what the problem is. This doesn’t have anything to do with FIRE at all but it is class envy and a sense of missing dreams. OP grew up blue collar and had dreams of becoming white collar. “White collar” being defined by his own definition that includes a high powered corporate career. He feels like FIRE isn’t the reward after working and saving but missing out on the white collar dream and getting sent back to a blue collar existence.

I don’t have anything useful for that except to reiterate what everyone else has been saying: go talk to a professional. Maybe you can work through this and get to a point of figuring out how to get what you’ve wanted or learning to be happy with the great things you have achieved and the enviable you are already in.

Perhaps it is a class thing where white collar people feel more comfortable not having looking rich or professional from the outside, like Mark Zuckerberg bumming around in hjs hoodies because he knows he is rich and successful? I know I had big desires for nice clothes and name brand purses and all of that when I had no money to my name. The more my net worth grows the more I want to wear yoga pants and socks with holes in them and just not care what anyone thinks.

Counselling was also never a problem for mine or DH's security clearance, our reasons were always listed as "maintenance"

Also, yes, obviously OP's issue is missing out on his dreams, but he blames FIRE because according to him, it's basically impossible to feel motivated to accomplish anything substantial professionally without the gun to his head of needing the money to survive.

Early in this thread he made it very clear that the reason his dreams haven't been fulfilled is because it's just too easy not to when you have a lot of money.

THAT is how he thinks FIRE has ruined his life.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 19, 2021, 04:23:16 PM
I’ve had jobs that have required security clearances (Secret, TS/SCI) and counseling has not been a problem. It was something I acknowledged on background applications and as long as it was related to “grief“ I never got a second question.

I think l understand more where the OP is coming from and what the problem is. This doesn’t have anything to do with FIRE at all but it is class envy and a sense of missing dreams. OP grew up blue collar and had dreams of becoming white collar. “White collar” being defined by his own definition that includes a high powered corporate career. He feels like FIRE isn’t the reward after working and saving but missing out on the white collar dream and getting sent back to a blue collar existence.

I don’t have anything useful for that except to reiterate what everyone else has been saying: go talk to a professional. Maybe you can work through this and get to a point of figuring out how to get what you’ve wanted or learning to be happy with the great things you have achieved and the enviable you are already in.

Perhaps it is a class thing where white collar people feel more comfortable not having looking rich or professional from the outside, like Mark Zuckerberg bumming around in hjs hoodies because he knows he is rich and successful? I know I had big desires for nice clothes and name brand purses and all of that when I had no money to my name. The more my net worth grows the more I want to wear yoga pants and socks with holes in them and just not care what anyone thinks.

Counselling was also never a problem for mine or DH's security clearance, our reasons were always listed as "maintenance"

Also, yes, obviously OP's issue is missing out on his dreams, but he blames FIRE because according to him, it's basically impossible to feel motivated to accomplish anything substantial professionally without the gun to his head of needing the money to survive.

Early in this thread he made it very clear that the reason his dreams haven't been fulfilled is because it's just too easy not to when you have a lot of money.

THAT is how he thinks FIRE has ruined his life.

Yes, and the irony of the bolded is that clearly he aspires to be wealthy, and yet the truly wealthy push toward dreams, take employment risks, and accomplish things even though they never need to earn a penny.  Sure, there are examples of trust fund kids who might be exceptions, but in generally, the super-rich people I've known serve on boards and starts businesses and run non-profits and teach in their communities, even though they need never earn a penny. 

So he wants to be like the rich, and yet a defining characteristic of his life is that if he's not struggling financially, he's not motivated.  But IME, most rich people are extremely motivated to contribute and create. So he needs to be poor to be motivated, yet what he truly wants is to be rich.  But being rich sucks his motivation, and he also really wants to be motivated. It's an ugly--yet entirely fixable--loop. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lutorm on December 19, 2021, 10:53:22 PM
This thread makes me think of these quotes from Epictetus:
Quote
Some things are in our control and others not. Things in our control are opinion, pursuit, desire, aversion, and, in a word, whatever are our own actions. Things not in our control are body, property, reputation, command, and, in one word, whatever are not our actions. The things in our control are by nature free, unrestrained, unhindered; but those not in our control are weak, slavish, restrained, belonging to others. Remember, then, that if you suppose that things which are slavish by nature are also free, and that what belongs to others is your own, then you will be hindered. You will lament, you will be disturbed, and you will find fault both with gods and men. But if you suppose that only to be your own which is your own, and what belongs to others such as it really is, then no one will ever compel you or restrain you. Further, you will find fault with no one or accuse no one. You will do nothing against your will. No one will hurt you, you will have no enemies, and you not be harmed.
Quote
It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters.

You feel like the world has injured you. But the world just happens, it does not have intent. Things will happen, and we only have control over how we think about and respond to them.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: friedmmj on December 20, 2021, 07:32:42 AM
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

I eagerly await your arrows.

I enjoyed a Nicholas Cage movie over the weekend called "The Family Man".  I think you should watch it.  The premise is that a guy took a path after college and became a fabulously wealthy business tycoon.  He gets sucked into one of those Hollywood fantasy plots where his life suddenly does a 180 and he is forced to live as a "regular" guy in the suburbs and comes to realize how much better it really is.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2021, 11:12:06 AM
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.   
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 20, 2021, 11:47:10 AM
Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 20, 2021, 11:49:29 AM
Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.

Hahaha. "forced" maybe the second biggest lie the op is telling themselves.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2021, 12:09:10 PM
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

Forgive me if I don't take your word on it. I find it hard to believe that an entire, massive industry would hold such an archaic and dangerous position as being opposed to its employees getting therapy. That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
(But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are correct while I look it up myself)

Also, as I said already, if you paid out of pocket for therapy, your employer wouldn't even likely be entitled to know about it. For fuck's sake, even a decent coach would probably do you a world of good, and there's absolutely no way the aviation industry would have any right to know that you sought out coaching.

Basically, if you wanted help with being happier in life, you could easily get it.

Also, I am a trained medical professional with extensive training in psychology AND training clinical counselling. In no way is my assessment that you should seek therapy a frivolous or misguided one.

No one needs to be mentally ill to benefit from counselling. The vast majority of people who seek therapy are not mentally ill, just struggling with the normal challenges of life.

You have openly admitted many, many times that you are unhappy and dissatisfied with your life. That makes you the PERFECT candidate for counselling.

Even if I TOTALLY agreed with you about the cause of your misery, I would STILL recommend counselling for you. STRONGLY.

ETA: a quick google indicates that the issue for American pilots is not that they can't get counselling, it's that being diagnosed with a mental illness could be problematic for their careers. But as I said, you don't need to have a mental illness to benefit from counselling.

The catch 22 for working pilots though is that they can't get referrals to counsellors *within their insurance* without a diagnosis.

All in all though, it doesn't look like there's any barrier for an out of work pilot who doesn't have a significant mental illness to seek maintenance counselling to better improve their capacity to enjoy life and resolve their pesky, toxic external locus of control issues.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2021, 01:45:03 PM
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?


Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

Forgive me if I don't take your word on it. I find it hard to believe that an entire, massive industry would hold such an archaic and dangerous position as being opposed to its employees getting therapy. That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
(But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are correct while I look it up myself)

Also, as I said already, if you paid out of pocket for therapy, your employer wouldn't even likely be entitled to know about it. For fuck's sake, even a decent coach would probably do you a world of good, and there's absolutely no way the aviation industry would have any right to know that you sought out coaching.

Basically, if you wanted help with being happier in life, you could easily get it.

Also, I am a trained medical professional with extensive training in psychology AND training clinical counselling. In no way is my assessment that you should seek therapy a frivolous or misguided one.

No one needs to be mentally ill to benefit from counselling. The vast majority of people who seek therapy are not mentally ill, just struggling with the normal challenges of life.

You have openly admitted many, many times that you are unhappy and dissatisfied with your life. That makes you the PERFECT candidate for counselling.

Even if I TOTALLY agreed with you about the cause of your misery, I would STILL recommend counselling for you. STRONGLY.

ETA: a quick google indicates that the issue for American pilots is not that they can't get counselling, it's that being diagnosed with a mental illness could be problematic for their careers. But as I said, you don't need to have a mental illness to benefit from counselling.

The catch 22 for working pilots though is that they can't get referrals to counsellors *within their insurance* without a diagnosis.

All in all though, it doesn't look like there's any barrier for an out of work pilot who doesn't have a significant mental illness to seek maintenance counselling to better improve their capacity to enjoy life and resolve their pesky, toxic external locus of control issues.


Malcat,

Even in Europe if a pilot seeks help they are risking losing their medical. No one says that you can't seek help, however, once you do you then are in a position of having to defend yourself against a huge government entity who has no interest in helping you. It is a huge problem. There are political groups in the USA that are trying to force reform.

I had a buddy who fell off the roof and was prescribed opioids during his recovery. As a result, the FAA had him prove that he wasn't a drug addict. He worked in law enforcement and did not even need to take the medication. It is the way the government works. Guilty until proven innocent.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on December 20, 2021, 01:52:27 PM
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

1) You are not FIREd, nor have you ever been FIREd.

2) FIRE is not a fantasy, and you show yourself to be remarkably tone deaf, among other things, to be saying it is to a forum FULL of people who, unlike yourself, are in fact FIREd, and happily so.

3) The reason people are suggesting therapy (and frankly, we can do without your condescension toward those with "mental issues") is that you are presenting with many of the classic signs of depression. It can be hard for people in the midst of depression to see it in themselves, while outside observers can see it clearly.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2021, 02:07:02 PM
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?


Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

Forgive me if I don't take your word on it. I find it hard to believe that an entire, massive industry would hold such an archaic and dangerous position as being opposed to its employees getting therapy. That's just a lawsuit waiting to happen.
(But I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are correct while I look it up myself)

Also, as I said already, if you paid out of pocket for therapy, your employer wouldn't even likely be entitled to know about it. For fuck's sake, even a decent coach would probably do you a world of good, and there's absolutely no way the aviation industry would have any right to know that you sought out coaching.

Basically, if you wanted help with being happier in life, you could easily get it.

Also, I am a trained medical professional with extensive training in psychology AND training clinical counselling. In no way is my assessment that you should seek therapy a frivolous or misguided one.

No one needs to be mentally ill to benefit from counselling. The vast majority of people who seek therapy are not mentally ill, just struggling with the normal challenges of life.

You have openly admitted many, many times that you are unhappy and dissatisfied with your life. That makes you the PERFECT candidate for counselling.

Even if I TOTALLY agreed with you about the cause of your misery, I would STILL recommend counselling for you. STRONGLY.

ETA: a quick google indicates that the issue for American pilots is not that they can't get counselling, it's that being diagnosed with a mental illness could be problematic for their careers. But as I said, you don't need to have a mental illness to benefit from counselling.

The catch 22 for working pilots though is that they can't get referrals to counsellors *within their insurance* without a diagnosis.

All in all though, it doesn't look like there's any barrier for an out of work pilot who doesn't have a significant mental illness to seek maintenance counselling to better improve their capacity to enjoy life and resolve their pesky, toxic external locus of control issues.


Malcat,

Even in Europe if a pilot seeks help they are risking losing their medical. No one says that you can't seek help, however, once you do you then are in a position of having to defend yourself against a huge government entity who has no interest in helping you. It is a huge problem. There are political groups in the USA that are trying to force reform.

I had a buddy who fell off the roof and was prescribed opioids during his recovery. As a result, the FAA had him prove that he wasn't a drug addict. He worked in law enforcement and did not even need to take the medication. It is the way the government works. Guilty until proven innocent.

Way to selectively ignore almost everything I wrote in my post.

I honestly don't think you read what I put effort into writing.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: youngwildandfree on December 20, 2021, 02:21:20 PM
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

You can replace the acronym "FIRE" with the word "freedom" and this post would read identically.

My understanding is you came here to think through your dissatisfaction with life and hoped we could provide you tools for building happiness. Therapy would be a better method than posting here.

I find your dream a bit perplexing on its own to be honest. I know dozens of pilots and consider some good friends. All of them complain that the job is rather boring. It's most similar to driving a bus.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2021, 02:29:15 PM
@Skyhigh

Maybe I'm an outlier but I'm not from any sort of elite background. I'm white/Caucasian and have that source of privilege but have none of the other things you think are essential to corporate success.

My mother grew up poor and migratory (I honestly believe grandma and grandpa were "running from the law") rarely spending more than 6 weeks in any one town.  Grandparents were both alcoholics.  My father didn't finish 8th grade (dropped out, lied to a Navy recruiter about his age and became a sailor).  He grew up in deep poverty in rural Louisiana and worked manual labor jobs all his life.  I was not so poor that I ever missed a meal and I always had shoes and winter coat to wear.  But I was poor enough that I had a Christmas where there was money for gifts for my brother but not for me.  We re-wrapped things I already owned and put them under the tree to put on a show for my brother. 

I was the first in my extended family to go to college.  I had to pay my own way through and I didn't have the historical family knowledge of how to get scholarships/internships/etc.  So I worked my ass off at minimum wage or barely better jobs and took 8 years to get a 4 year degree.  Since, I had worked exclusively for a time and attended school exclusively for a time, I discovered unstructured time was very valuable to me.  I was an Economics major and worked well with spreadsheets and modeled out a 10 year retirement plan.  I like to say I "failed well" because it took me 14 years.

I didn't know anyone in the corporate world or even anyone in the class of construction trades that was well off enough to own their trucks.  I didn't know how to properly comport myself at corporate social functions.  And I am weird, and awkward, and anxious, and have weird facial tics because I have Tourette's Syndrome.  But I ascended far enough up into the ranks to be placed on the "insider roster".  I rubbed elbows with the C-suite every quarter end (they were dependent on my analysis for the earnings call).  It was clear I wasn't one of "them" but they let me into their circle because I was useful.

Respectfully, (really - with RESPECT), I feel like I have NOT judged you or attacked you.  Sure, confronted you, out of concern for your needs.  I believe I have cared for you and tried to help you.  (Agree?)  You are against counseling but you could do some non counseling things that recenter your locus of control.  You could take up a meditation practice (5 minutes a day does wonders).  You could do a Core Values study - discover what makes you tick; and start taking positive steps to live your life according to your values.  You strike me as Agnostic so Scripture study is probably not appropriate. But you can study (and apply) Jung.  And you can read Thoreau's "Walden".  That is a cherished piece of American literature that is very FIRE appropriate.  I'll give you a hint for interpretation.  It isn't about a man who goes into the woods to fiddle fart around.  It's about a man who goes into HIMSELF (mostly to fiddle fart around.)  Therein, he finds his own personal truth and beauty.  There is a great deal of emotional/psychological/spiritual value in idle self introspection and reflection.  "Above all else this: Know Thyself." 

I've been RE for 9.5 years (since age 40).  And while, I'm not delighted like many here claim to be, I have a very deep sense of contentment.  Accounting never became my identity, was not who I was; it was something I did for money (b/c I was good at it) and it provided enough financial surplus to save for an exit to the unstructured time that is necessary for my happiness.

Again, respectfully, there are some important life lessons you are completely missing out on and some important intra-personal skills you lack.  Learnable skills.  Being stuck in misery for 20 years is not healthy.  I'll add that being stuck in misery for 20 years is also a CHOICE.  And for an American it is really wasteful of the very special opportunities you have been given.

Thank you FV, I greatly appreciate everything that you write. My professional goals are not within my ability to control. I could not stop a recession. I am not in control of my employer's outcome. I can't make it rain.

My family needed a source of income. My employees need their jobs. Often in life, we get backed into a corner and have to concede. I stopped trying to go through doors that were closed to me and started to accept the opportunities at hand. It made all the difference. I was able to provide a good life for my family and all it cost me was my dream.

I am good at RE investing, but it does not mean that it was my dream to be mowing lawns, cleaning up after college kids, and shoveling snow. I have been involved with RE my whole life.  I became a realtor at 18 and quickly abandoned that for the better life that a college education promised. My expectation was to be involved with RE investing but my goal was to live the life of an urban professional. I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on December 20, 2021, 02:31:21 PM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at how this guy has 100% NO IDEA what FIRE even means.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: youngwildandfree on December 20, 2021, 02:37:45 PM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at how this guy has 100% NO IDEA what FIRE even means.

Truth. Needing to work a job/run a business you hate to support those you love is a sad and overwhelmingly common story. It's not FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 20, 2021, 02:43:50 PM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

I am absolutely flabbergasted at how this guy has 100% NO IDEA what FIRE even means.

That's why the effort I put into posts here is growing infinitely smaller.

Where my pitty party at!!!

WHERRRRRRRESITAT!!!!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2021, 02:46:58 PM
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.

Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.

You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.

I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.

In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.

You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.

So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.

Malcat,

I don't doubt that in a holistic sense I do have everything that I need. We are living a good life in a safe part of the world. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family to a fantastic degree. However, it is my belief that dissatisfaction is the mother of all progress. Show me an artist that is satisfied and you will see someone who is past their best accomplishments. Had I been satisfied to remain employed as a gas station attendant then there I would have remained.

 “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.” ~ Ernest Hemingway

Doing nothing is not a worthy goal. Striving to underachieve is not a virtue. The concept of retirement is a recent development in human history. It is not natural. Our purpose should be more than to exist without having to produce anything of value to the outside world. I don't believe that it is healthy.

Often we don't realize the full consequences of our life choices until we are older and can take stock. I am reaching an age where the cost is becoming more apparent. My children wanted to watch the movie "Star Trek Generations" last weekend. A major theme in that film is about the opportunity cost of the choices made in life. Primary characters were lamenting their career versus personal life choices. I am not unusual. It is a common situation. 

I am bummed is all. I have ambition, drive, and a will to suceed.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2021, 02:53:22 PM
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.

Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.

You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.

I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.

In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.

You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.

So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.

Malcat,

I don't doubt that in a holistic sense I do have everything that I need. We are living a good life in a safe part of the world. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family to a fantastic degree. However, it is my belief that dissatisfaction is the mother of all progress. Show me an artist that is satisfied and you will see someone who is past their best accomplishments. Had I been satisfied to remain employed as a gas station attendant then there I would have remained.

Your belief is wrong, I grew up in a community of artists, many are among the happiest people I know because they are pursuing their dreams.

 “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.” ~ Ernest Hemingway

Hemingway is also pretty full of shit. Pretty much all of my friends have doctorates, and they're not on average any less happy than the general population, although the general population isn't very happy. Probably because they don't get proper therapy ;)


Doing nothing is not a worthy goal. Striving to underachieve is not a virtue. The concept of retirement is a recent development in human history. It is not natural. Our purpose should be more than to exist without having to produce anything of value to the outside world. I don't believe that it is healthy.

You keep repeating this, and yet many people in retirement do amazing, meaningful things. Being financially independent doesn't hold anyone back from doing meaningful things, being lazy and self defeating sure does though.

Often we don't realize the full consequences of our life choices until we are older and can take stock. I am reaching an age where the cost is becoming more apparent. My children wanted to watch the movie "Star Trek Generations" last weekend. A major theme in that film is about the opportunity cost of the choices made in life. Primary characters were lamenting their career versus personal life choices. I am not unusual. It is a common situation. 

Yep, I've made TONS of terrible decisions. I keep moving forward.

I am bummed is all. I have ambition, drive, and a will to suceed.

If this was true, you would be doing something about it other than whining. Do you actually want advice? It doesn't seem like it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 20, 2021, 03:00:39 PM
Again, you don’t understand FIRE. No where has anyone ever said that FIRE is about doing nothing. NEVER. You keep insisting that and everyone on this thread keeps telling you that isn’t what it is and that isn’t what us FIREd people do. Can you please drop that?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 20, 2021, 03:08:12 PM
Thank you FV, I greatly appreciate everything that you write. My professional goals are not within my ability to control. I could not stop a recession. I am not in control of my employer's outcome. I can't make it rain.


@Skyhigh

I'm amazed and frustrated.  You are still not groking.  What IS in your control?  What positive steps can you take TODAY to improve your personal life satisfaction?  Do something; anything, to get your energy unstuck.  I know you cherish work ethic.  But in this area of personal emotional care you are being enormously lazy.  It isn't healthy to accept a default lifestyle that makes you miserable and fail to take action for over two decades.  You could have liquidated your real estate empire and bought/financed a Super King Air and started a charter service probably a decade ago.  Could have started a restaurant empire.  Could have done about a zillion things that would give you more satisfaction than mowing lawns.  Hell, you could started a landscaping service so it is justified to pay someone to mow your properties. Could have built out a property management company, with enough revenue to support hiring a general  manager and gained enough freedom to pursue a career as an acrobatic pilot. 

I have a secret. I once dreamed of being an airline pilot too.  I got about 35 hours into my PP training before I decided I was getting airsick too often, having too much trouble finding airports, and noticed my vision was declining (big negative for a commercial airline pilot in 1993), before giving up and ultimately becoming an accountant.    I did something much less glamorous than I had hoped.  It didn't make me miserable.  I CHOSE to find satisfaction in life.  You CHOOSE to be miserable and it is very unhealthy. 

Notice how malcat keeps circling back to having an 'external locus of control?"  She is hitting the nail on the head.  You are not helpless.  You have far more latitude to chart your own course than 99% of the people who have ever lived.  Just because you are "keeping busy" with RE doesn't mean you are being "productive".  You need to be making better/smarter use of your time.

You deserve to be happy.   Let me say it a again: you DESERVE to be happy.  And you can be, but you have to take action.  Lots of people have suggested therapy and I get that is problematic for you.  I have given you half a dozen other tools you can pursue to become more emotionally well adjusted.  But so far, it looks like you choose misery over action.  Observing that makes me sad. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2021, 03:13:23 PM
Thank you FV, I greatly appreciate everything that you write. My professional goals are not within my ability to control. I could not stop a recession. I am not in control of my employer's outcome. I can't make it rain.


@Skyhigh

I'm amazed and frustrated.  You are still not groking.  What IS in your control?  What positive steps can you take TODAY to improve your personal life satisfaction?  Do something; anything, to get your energy unstuck.  I know you cherish work ethic.  But in this area of personal emotional care you are being enormously lazy.  It isn't healthy to accept a default lifestyle that makes you miserable and fail to take action for over two decades.  You could have liquidated your real estate empire and bought/financed a Super King Air and started a charter service probably a decade ago.  Could have started a restaurant empire.  Could have done about a zillion things that would give you more satisfaction than mowing lawns.  Hell, you could started a landscaping service so it is justified to pay someone to mow your properties. Could have built out a property management company, with enough revenue to support hiring a general  manager and gained enough freedom to pursue a career as an acrobatic pilot. 

I have a secret. I once dreamed of being an airline pilot too.  I got about 35 hours into my PP training before I decided I was getting airsick too often, having too much trouble finding airports, and noticed my vision was declining (big negative for a commercial airline pilot in 1993), before giving up and ultimately becoming an accountant.    I did something much less glamorous than I had hoped.  It didn't make me miserable.  I CHOSE to find satisfaction in life.  You CHOOSE to be miserable and it is very unhealthy. 

Notice how malcat keeps circling back to having an 'external locus of control?"  She is hitting the nail on the head.  You are not helpless.  You have far more latitude to chart your own course than 99% of the people who have ever lived.  Just because you are "keeping busy" with RE doesn't mean you are being "productive".  You need to be making better/smarter use of your time.

You deserve to be happy.   Let me say it a again: you DESERVE to be happy.  And you can be, but you have to take action.  Lots of people have suggested therapy and I get that is problematic for you.  I have given you half a dozen other tools you can pursue to become more emotionally well adjusted.  But so far, it looks like you choose misery over action.  Observing that makes me sad.

I've honestly never made this little traction with someone like this before.

It's fascinating. Normally I can crack nuts like this in a matter of minutes. I've never seen anything like it, and I've tackled A LOT of resistant personalities. In fact, it's a huge part of my professional reputation, that I can get through to the most stubborn patients and get them to take better care of themselves with my patented brand of yelling at people.

Usually they crack though and I can move on to the compassionate phase. But this nut just won't fucking crack!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2021, 03:19:57 PM

Fall is a time of reflection and planning for the future. The rental house workload eases up permitting time to think about these things again.
...



Or maybe you should actually put some effort into doing what you want to do.

You KEEP IGNORING ME when I say this, but if you want opportunities to do important, prestigious work, YOU COULD GO OUT AND DO THAT.

So why don't you? Is it just pure laziness?

@Skyhigh Malcat's post here triggered a thought.

For years, I've dreamed of doing X (something very specific). This was my dream. For years, I've been prevented from doing it by things both in and out of my control. And now it's out of reach due to age (a legal limit, not a state of mind). I keep holding onto it and hoping something will change that will make it possible. I've kept busy with other things and most would say I've used my time and energy well. But that unfulfilled dream nags at me. And I'm realizing it's also hindering me from moving forward.

Maybe the major airline pilot job is your dream that's hindering your growth and forward movement. Does that sound like a possibility?

Maybe someone can suggest a way to mourn and let go of dreams that are out of reach now.

Anyway, I wish you well with your struggles and appreciate this thread for sparking that realization for me.

EDITed to add.
Your writing "It's just that I am not satisfied with my story. It is not what I was hoping for. To me, it feels like I gave up on my dreams because I did. It was the right choice. My family is much happier, but I am super bummed that my epitaph will be uninteresting to me. I failed to reach my goals and it shouldn't of been that hard." also really struck home. I feel you on that.

I have.

Doing work on internal vs external locus of control, getting good therapy. Also consider mindfulness meditation and CBT activities.

OP at any point could have asked me about this after I shared how I managed to mourn losing my career that I loved and the loss of a lot of the function of my body, but he doesn't seem very interested.

I'll go.  I lost my career when I became a trailing spouse and moved overseas.  I had a choice, but that choice would have been "live apart from my spouse for 2.5 years" (which turned out to be about 10 years) and that just wasn't viable.

It's been hard.  We don't have children.  I was always a career person.  And then... I wasn't.

I spent a lot of time reframing.  What was important to me?  What did I think made someone a good human?  What did I truly value?  I asked these questions, and with each answer I asked "why" or "how" or some other question that dug to a deeper, more philosophical place.  And that really helped me see what I valued, and who I wanted to be as a person--what mark I wanted to make on the world.  It turns out that none of the answers had anything to do with employment, and a lot of my struggles were more about ego than actual fulfillment from work.  I'd made a lot out of being a "career woman".  That was my plan for my life.  So when it went away, I floundered a bit, and my ego was left a bit unanchored, until I found new, more meaningful things to anchor it to.  It's tough to articulate exactly how that happened, but it was just  lot of self-questioning, and refusing to accepts my mind's lazy, automatic responses. 

~~~

OP, if you were laid off from the airlines (not fired or let go for cause), why don't you go back?  They are hiring like crazy.  There was a bit of a pause during the height of Covid, but they are once again scooping up every semi-qualified body.  So why not go back to the airlines?

Hi,

The airlines are hiring. I have been consistently applying to legacy airlines since 1995 with some near-miss opportunities.

There are lower-rung airline and other aviation jobs where I burned my youth, but the dream was always to spend my career at a mainline carrier. Over the last 30 years, the legacy airlines really didn't hire all that many. Just recently however they are facing a massive shortage and an epic hiring boom is beginning.

Most legacy airlines really don't want to hire older pilots. Last summer I reached a birthday milestone that I determined was an appropriate age to give up. I am bummed about it. I missed the party in the early 1990s and now I am too old.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 20, 2021, 03:22:26 PM
Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.

You have a good idea there. However, my main experience is with FIRE. I grew up with it. I have clients whom I help to achieve FIRE. I have seen the benefits and drawbacks. It is my main profession.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on December 20, 2021, 03:30:43 PM
I started this thread long ago with the intent of producing an information exchange. People here seemed interested in achieving something that I already had a lot of experience with while desiring to abandon something that is my oldest and longest-held dream.

Revelations held here are common knowledge to the working class. We grew up recognizing that if one wanted to reach the middle or upper-middle class you had to own a fleet of trucks, become a self-employed electrician, and otherwise build something that you owned. Frugality doesn't go out of style with the working class. It doesn't need to be rediscovered as a virtue. It is an ever-present requirement of existence.

It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

As a result, I could not secure employment to provide for my family and was forced to fall back upon my working-class roots to build myself a financially independent system. Therefore, to me, FIRE is evidence of failure. I am thankful to be able to provide for my family to a spectacular degree, however, I am sad as to not have been able to create a path to a better life for my children and myself. As one of my older sons has said, “I am a poor man with money”.

Last summer I reached a milestone where I have determined that it was time to officially give up on my dream. I am too old now and the opportunity cost is especially cutting right now.  My early hope was that others here could help me to understand the social skills required to become a class migrant. What I got was insults and put-downs instead. I did not realize that FIRE was a religion of the elite and I was seen as an apostate traitor.

A concession: My wife and children really prospered once we left the big city. They all express great enjoyment in our mostly peaceful rural life. My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them. In my defense, I offer that dreams don’t always make sense. The heart wants what it wants.

I eagerly await your arrows.

Funny, I grew up dirt poor, left home as a teenager, and scraped by on nothing for years just to survive.
All of my success comes from an iron will to succeed and 80-100hr workweeks for nearly 20 straight years. I took my first vacation in my 30s. My DH grew up on the outskirts of a reservation getting the shit kicked out of him daily. No silver spoons or nepotism here.
This is yet again you trying to make excuses that anyone else who is living the life you want must have had it handed to them, and that you are the victim of your circumstances and not the agent of your own life outcomes.

You have NEVER asked for help to achieve your dreams, you have ONLY insisted that they are impossible. If anything, we have insisted over and over and OVER again that there are ways to accomplish your dreams and you keep ignoring those suggestions.

I for one insist that if you were properly motivated and willing to seek out actual help, that you could have a much better, much happier life, and do meaningful work that is very satisfying.

In fact, I would bet large sums that if I took you on as a coaching client, talked on the phone with you weekly, and you actually followed my advice, that I could have your life totally turned around within 12-18 months. But I wouldn't take you on as a client because I only help people who are eager to help themselves.

You have EVERYTHING YOU NEED to live an amazing life. You choose not to.

So seriously, what kind of help are you looking for? Because if you actually ask for help, the people here are EXTREMELY helpful. What we aren't patient with is excuses.

Malcat,

I don't doubt that in a holistic sense I do have everything that I need. We are living a good life in a safe part of the world. I am blessed to be able to provide for my family to a fantastic degree. However, it is my belief that dissatisfaction is the mother of all progress. Show me an artist that is satisfied and you will see someone who is past their best accomplishments. Had I been satisfied to remain employed as a gas station attendant then there I would have remained.

Your belief is wrong, I grew up in a community of artists, many are among the happiest people I know because they are pursuing their dreams.

 “Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.” ~ Ernest Hemingway

Hemingway is also pretty full of shit. Pretty much all of my friends have doctorates, and they're not on average any less happy than the general population, although the general population isn't very happy. Probably because they don't get proper therapy ;)


Doing nothing is not a worthy goal. Striving to underachieve is not a virtue. The concept of retirement is a recent development in human history. It is not natural. Our purpose should be more than to exist without having to produce anything of value to the outside world. I don't believe that it is healthy.

You keep repeating this, and yet many people in retirement do amazing, meaningful things. Being financially independent doesn't hold anyone back from doing meaningful things, being lazy and self defeating sure does though.

Often we don't realize the full consequences of our life choices until we are older and can take stock. I am reaching an age where the cost is becoming more apparent. My children wanted to watch the movie "Star Trek Generations" last weekend. A major theme in that film is about the opportunity cost of the choices made in life. Primary characters were lamenting their career versus personal life choices. I am not unusual. It is a common situation. 

Yep, I've made TONS of terrible decisions. I keep moving forward.

I am bummed is all. I have ambition, drive, and a will to suceed.

If this was true, you would be doing something about it other than whining. Do you actually want advice? It doesn't seem like it.





Hemingway was also a deeply disturbed man who emotionally and physically abused those around him. His belief that unhappiness was a mark of his intelligence was a defense mechanism to cope with a debilitating, deep-seated insecurity.

Plus, he was a miserable drunk who refused to take responsibility for himself or for the harm he caused. He also offed himself.

So, this quote that OP has posted twice already in this thread is not exactly sending us the message he is probably hoping it sends.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on December 20, 2021, 03:54:20 PM
The more I think about it the more relieved I am that Skyhigh never made it as a commercial airline pilot.  There is something seriously off with his willingness/ability to communicate.  I would not want to have somebody like this flying a plane I was on, just sayin....
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: sui generis on December 20, 2021, 03:59:12 PM
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy. There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

Hon, it's not your opposition to FIRE that has people recommending you pursue therapy.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 20, 2021, 05:36:38 PM
CBT is Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, you can easily find self help resources for this, same with Mindfulness Meditation. The app Headspace isn't free beyond a certain point, but is a phenomenal resource for managing mental health.

Also, aren't you a pilot? I have several pilot friends, none of whom have any professional issues seeking clinical counselling, one commercial pilot actually had it mandated after a crash. In your case, I think counselling is critically important. In addition, how would any employer even know you sought counselling?

Hi Malcat,

In the USA pilots are not able to openly pursue therapy.
There is a movement to reform the medical process but those who are in control are not willing to accommodate that currently. Besides, I don't think that my issue is with anything other than disappointment, boredom, and frustration.

It also seems that people on this forum when confronted with opposition to the FIRE  fantasy want to consider the source as obviously having mental issues. Everyone can benefit from counselling from time to time, however, being bored and dissatisfied with FIRE is not a mental malady. There are some downsides to FIRE.

It is not depression to be dissatisfied.

That's patently untrue. 

https://aviatorshq.com/can-pilots-see-a-therapist-psychologist/ (https://aviatorshq.com/can-pilots-see-a-therapist-psychologist/)

Quote
pilots can seek the help of a mental health professional without the fear of it having a a detrimental affect on their ability to hold a medical certificate. Item 19 on the FAA Form 8500-8, stated that visits to mental health professionals were reportable ONLY if it was due to alcohol/substance abuse OR resulted in a personal psychiatric diagnosis. Pilots who are functioning well but are seeking to improve their situation have no obligation to report that form of counseling.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 20, 2021, 06:01:31 PM
I've honestly never made this little traction with someone like this before.

Skyhigh is enormously STUCK!  I know a guy who is almost as deeply stuck in a completely different manner.  But he at least recognizes his shit is borked and is open to suggestions.

I take it you (malcat) are not spiritually oriented?  I have no fewer than four basket cases I'm working with right now.  Never in my life have I seen so many instances of destructive Spiritual Immaturity. (And I mean true spirituality, not being cool with a church clique).  I think the combination of political division and Covid is wearing on people to the point of breaking.   Anyway, point is, I see your spirit of service and promise you that Christ honors you for that.  Perhaps moreso if it is a service absent of faith as that is truly selfless.  You can publicly denounce me as "sort of stupid" if you reject that.  I will not diminish my respect for your expertise and experience. 

OP needs a wake-up kick in the groin.  But OP also needs compassion - clearly suffering. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2021, 07:03:44 PM
I've honestly never made this little traction with someone like this before.

Skyhigh is enormously STUCK!  I know a guy who is almost as deeply stuck in a completely different manner.  But he at least recognizes his shit is borked and is open to suggestions.

I take it you (malcat) are not spiritually oriented? I have no fewer than four basket cases I'm working with right now.  Never in my life have I seen so many instances of destructive Spiritual Immaturity. (And I mean true spirituality, not being cool with a church clique).  I think the combination of political division and Covid is wearing on people to the point of breaking.   Anyway, point is, I see your spirit of service and promise you that Christ honors you for that.  Perhaps moreso if it is a service absent of faith as that is truly selfless.  You can publicly denounce me as "sort of stupid" if you reject that.  I will not diminish my respect for your expertise and experience. 

OP needs a wake-up kick in the groin.  But OP also needs compassion - clearly suffering.

People often assume that about me. I have a very interesting relationship with faith and religion, and spent a lot of last year debating church doctrine with a study group of ministers.

OP absolutely needs compassion, because everyone does, but the line between compassion and enabling when someone is engaging in self destructive beliefs is very, very blurry.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 20, 2021, 07:12:53 PM
People often assume that (nonspiritual) about me. I have a very interesting relationship with faith and religion, and spent a lot of last year debating church doctrine with a study group of ministers.

OP absolutely needs compassion, because everyone does, but the line between compassion and enabling when someone is engaging in self destructive beliefs is very, very blurry.

Praise Christ (or the Diety of your choice) then!  I sense, intuit, [hand waving spiritual BS] - FEEL, that OP needs more compassion than mule-kicking at this moment.  I sense an enormous amount of unprocessed trauma, an enormous amount of self doubt. 

How do you feel about Jung?  I adore that approach to personal fulfillment.  Even though I do a really shitty job of applying Jung's lessons.  Shit, I do a really shitty job of applying Christ's lessons.  My faith is very scarred by negative experiences.  Damned if it isn't somehow still functional.  My prayers are offered in this moment to you and to Skyhigh; in the name of the Son of Man, who is Jesus the Christ, my personal Savior, forever and ever.  [Amen].
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 20, 2021, 07:18:04 PM
Your opposition is misplaced. This forum is for people who are actively pursuing FIRE with eyes wide open. They know the drawbacks and are still desiring to do it. They aren't people who were laid off and forced down an undesirable path. Maybe look for a forum about that.

You have a good idea there. However, my main experience is with FIRE. I grew up with it. I have clients whom I help to achieve FIRE. I have seen the benefits and drawbacks. It is my main profession.

No, I'm sorry, you are confused. This forum, if you can be bothered to read around, is geared toward people who are interested in becoming financially independent and retiring early.

That is not what you described growing up with. You described family members who worked and then suddenly retired without other interests or goals. You also described being laid off and being forced to work to provide for people. Neither of those things are FIRE for purposes of this forum.

Your position is not being rejected because people don't want to hear it. You don't want to hear the pushback.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 20, 2021, 07:25:24 PM
People often assume that (nonspiritual) about me. I have a very interesting relationship with faith and religion, and spent a lot of last year debating church doctrine with a study group of ministers.

OP absolutely needs compassion, because everyone does, but the line between compassion and enabling when someone is engaging in self destructive beliefs is very, very blurry.

Praise Christ (or the Diety of your choice) then!  I sense, intuit, [hand waving spiritual BS] - FEEL, that OP needs more compassion than mule-kicking at this moment.  I sense an enormous amount of unprocessed trauma, an enormous amount of self doubt. 

How do you feel about Jung?  I adore that approach to personal fulfillment.  Even though I do a really shitty job of applying Jung's lessons.  Shit, I do a really shitty job of applying Christ's lessons.  My faith is very scarred by negative experiences.  Damned if it isn't somehow still functional.  My prayers are offered in this moment to you and to Skyhigh; in the name of the Son of Man, who is Jesus the Christ, my personal Savior, forever and ever.  [Amen].

If I were being paid to professionally handle OP, I would handle him differently.

But here, I get to be a human being, not a professional. And as a fellow human, I'm allowing my gobsmacked frustration to have some space.

It's not my job to fix OP, so I have space to be aggravated.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 20, 2021, 07:49:41 PM
I do think OP needs and deserves compassion.  But I think he is so stubborn and entrenched in his victimhood and his refusal to be open to hearing anything that challenges his worldview that he's unable to receive either compassion or advice.

So to me, it seems like compassion in this case, unless it is accompanied with a hearty dose of harsh reality, is just enabling.

Interestingly, his posts remind me a great deal of an addict in my life.  This person's life is a mess, he is miserable, and he blames everything wrong with his life on outside influences when in fact he has control over so many of the things he hates, and many are a result of his bad decisions.  And none of it is so terribly messed up that it is irrecoverable (though admittedly in the addict's case, he's teetering on the point of no return), but because he is so determined to believe it is all out of his control, he can't take the reins and turn it all around.   His more interested in maintaining the narrative that all these bad things have happened to him than he is in actually making his life better and himself happy. 

And compassion at this point doesn't do that addict much good because it is just enables him to continue along his destructive path.  It's not that this man doesn't deserve compassion.  He does.  But compassion doesn't seem to be what best serves him, or at least not compassion alone. 

And yeah, the OP kinda reminds me of that man.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on December 21, 2021, 12:45:49 AM
Confession Bear meme...

https://imgflip.com/i/5ymlnx
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FreshlyFIREd on December 21, 2021, 01:54:27 AM
This post reminds me of my "career". I was a designer/draftsman. Early in my career, I wanted to land a job with the Fortune 500 companies. They had more job security, benefits, etc. Instead I could only land jobs with the engineering consultants. The job security was terrible at the consultants, huge cycles and swings, layoffs. I bounced between the consultants, and I could land jobs at the larger companies as a "contractor". I was always pissed, because the larger companies needed me, but would never 'direct hire' me.

So I was always frustrated, until I just accepted it. Then I learned about appreciating life as a contractor. I had less politics. I wasn't a threat to the 'directs'. I could get away with a lot of stuff the directs couldn't. When I got tired of the same old faces, boring convos, I would quit and move on to another 'contract position'.

The most awesome thing I benefitted from these contract positions: not borrowing money! If I had job security, I would have borrowed and spent. Because I didn't have security, I was fearful of borrowing money. I'm retired with money I can't spend. The directs I worked with are still working.

You just have to make the best of the cards you've been dealt.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 21, 2021, 09:51:14 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 21, 2021, 10:07:05 AM
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

I think we made a breakthrough here!   He OP is unhappy because he wasn't born into an elite family.   Since we can't change who our parents are, I guess the OP is screwed. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 10:14:39 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 21, 2021, 10:17:56 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on December 21, 2021, 10:21:16 AM
"In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations."

Umm, most professional careers include A LOT of financial spreadsheets and negotiations, contract and other.  Add in project planning, performance evaluations, meetings, more meetings, etc.  You have an odd idea of what goes into a "professional career".
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 21, 2021, 10:23:27 AM
In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Are you on drugs?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 10:24:05 AM
It is my belief that many here are from the urban professional elite. They seem to have a massive surplus of disposable income that can be redirected with little self-control. It was my biggest goal to also become an urban earn, save, spend, professional just like many here. Starting from a young age I followed the recipe laid out to me by professional elites. I went to college and became trained, educated, and experienced in my field. I hit the job market with great enthusiasm, however, my working-class background unknowingly betrayed me. My hands are calloused, sinuous, and string. In contrast, elite employers all had soft puffy hands that were like grabbing onto a pillow. Prospective employers would look at my resume and ask, “Who do you know at this company”? “No one”, was my reply. At the time my peer group was busy getting jobs as police officers and mailmen and I did not have an example to follow. I grew up in a neighborhood of HVAC technicians and trash collectors. My uncles worked for the union and as mechanics.

Children from elite families pursue internships and tour Europe after college. The children of the elite ski and play golf. I had to work two jobs and had no time for extracurriculars. Despite an impressive academic record and professional accomplishments, it was the absence of these subtle things were all tells that exposed me as being from the working class. A big reason that I couldn't progress into my career objective because I didn't have the social background to make the connections necessary to achieve a meaningful position. (Another big reason was that there was a lack of opportunity.)

I think we made a breakthrough here!   He OP is unhappy because he wasn't born into an elite family.   Since we can't change who our parents are, I guess the OP is screwed.

Like Malcat, I started out from lower-middle-class to poor. The school system told me that I could become a class migrant and have a better life through higher education. My dream was to escape the menial life of a laborer by going to college and becoming trained, educated, and experienced. Alas, the result of my efforts did not provide for the life I dreamed of and I had to FIRE instead.

FIRE did eventually create an income situation that greatly exceeded what I could possibly earn in my intended profession but it can never replace the personal satisfaction of becoming a posh urban earn, save, spend, professional. I also had hoped to provide an example of my kids to follow of how to escape the manual labor trap as well. In my experience, there is a social element to getting one of the plumb jobs that they don't tell you about in college or high school. Fewer than 5% are successful at becoming class migrants.

The irony is that an electrician can earn more than an accountant these days. At least it seems that we are heading that way.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 21, 2021, 10:28:36 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You have a really fucked up view of work.

I get that you don't enjoy your real estate work, but maybe don't be a blatant classis to snob about it and totally disrespectful to people who work those kinds of jobs.

Also, in what universe do self employed people do more work they don't want to do the employees? In fact, don't we have tons of people here dreaming of being self employed so that they won't be forced to do as much shit that they don't want to do?

We get it, you don't enjoy the job you chose to do. WE FUCKING GET IT. But that has nothing to do with FIRE.

You have yet to convince anyone that your case is anything beyond a dude who hates his job.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 10:29:35 AM
In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Are you on drugs?

Nancy Reagan told us to say "No" to drugs.   If you are an accountant most companies expect you to do that. They would not ask you to fix the heater. As a business owner, you are exposed to all the tasks of a business. Even the ones you are ill-suited for. I would rather fix the heater than negotiate with an angry anxiety-filled mother for example.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 10:37:16 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.

Please explain, do you mean Fired" as in fired from a job? I have the means to do nothing every day if I wanted. I have spent many long stretches of idle wasted days as a classicly unencumbered van-life FIRE person also.

In my 20's "van-life" was considered to be homelessness. It wasn't a cool fad.

Financially Independent - "The status of having enough income to pay one's living expenses for the rest of one's live without employment or being dependent upon others".

Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age".

I very much quality as FIRE. My point is that I have continued work functions as a means of staving off boredom and providing an example to my children of how adults are supposed to go to work every day and strive towards their dreams. My dreams were of a professional nature. Yesterday I shoveled snow.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: seattlecyclone on December 21, 2021, 10:51:00 AM
No, you never did the early retirement thing. You were laid off and decided to go into self-employment. That's not retirement, that's a career change. FIRE implies you have the freedom to not do self-employment if you don't enjoy it. There's a wide world of other things to do that aren't "long stretches of idle wasted days." It's not a binary choice between unenjoyable manual labor vs. sitting around on the couch.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 10:54:02 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You have a really fucked up view of work.

I get that you don't enjoy your real estate work, but maybe don't be a blatant classis to snob about it and totally disrespectful to people who work those kinds of jobs.

Also, in what universe do self employed people do more work they don't want to do the employees? In fact, don't we have tons of people here dreaming of being self employed so that they won't be forced to do as much shit that they don't want to do?

We get it, you don't enjoy the job you chose to do. WE FUCKING GET IT. But that has nothing to do with FIRE.

You have yet to convince anyone that your case is anything beyond a dude who hates his job.

I believe that my position does have a lot to do with FIRE. Imagine the lottery winner or one-hit-wonder musician. Once they reach a place of financial independence their motivation commonly leaves. The resulting decay exposes one to all kinds of mental and lifestyle complications. People who retire early are removed from the flow of life. They are often estranged from their peers. Their purpose becomes obscured. Self-esteem erodes.

Once cherished rare opportunities to pursue a hobby become a commonplace daily routine. The days blur into one another and the benefit becomes a curse. As previously determined you are an outlier. You hold a special determination to overcome external and internal challenges. Most others do not have the same resolve and sink into the abyss of doing nothing.  I see it all the time. I also experienced it.

People delude themselves into the fantasy of doing nothing. They convince themselves that they can retire at 35 on a million dollars of savings without considering the unlimited opportunities that life offers to squash their savings. They surrender their professional momentum with the assumption that their industry will welcome them back if needed when the reverse is often the case.

We have precious years of being young. It compels people to abandon their professions to travel the road less traveled without understanding the potential consequences it may bring. My advice is to consider staying the course. Remain healthy and you can blow 30 years in retirement doing that stuff. However, it loses its appeal quickly.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: youngwildandfree on December 21, 2021, 10:55:22 AM
I agree with you that moving classes is more challenging than we were taught to believe as children.

I think you have been more seriously mislead regarding your perceived differences between the lives of "professionals" and the "working class".

It's frankly really gross that you find manual labor humiliating. I understand wanting to focus on tasks that are more mentally challenging or provide more personal satisfaction for you. But if your whole argument is that you are secretly mentally "elite" but have been forced to work for a living...ew. People born wealthy are not more intelligent that people born poor. They are not better. They are not wiser. They have access to better education/networks/tools at an early age. But many wealthy people choose to do manual labor because they enjoy it and/or they are good at it.

The whole point of FIRE is that money buys freedom. Not that money makes you better. If you used your freedom to do something you didn't enjoy...oh well. You learned what you don't like. If you never had freedom because you didn't have money (what I'm reading from your posts), then you're just coming on here to say you hated your life because you weren't free to pursue all your passions. That I can understand. If you think the universe/god/circumstances made a mistake and forced you to do manual labor when you were too smart for that life...that's very narcissistic.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on December 21, 2021, 11:00:06 AM
Here's an idea -- instead of trying to piggyback on the success of Pete and those of us who have found the FIREd life to be great for us, why don't you start your own blog where you can share and develop your philosophy to your heart's content?  It is already pretty clear that your message is falling flat here and that you don't really want to engage meaningfully with anyone who has a different view.  So go find the people who share yours.  See how far you get with that.  Probably as far as you did with your fantasy career.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 21, 2021, 11:06:55 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You have a really fucked up view of work.

I get that you don't enjoy your real estate work, but maybe don't be a blatant classis to snob about it and totally disrespectful to people who work those kinds of jobs.

Also, in what universe do self employed people do more work they don't want to do the employees? In fact, don't we have tons of people here dreaming of being self employed so that they won't be forced to do as much shit that they don't want to do?

We get it, you don't enjoy the job you chose to do. WE FUCKING GET IT. But that has nothing to do with FIRE.

You have yet to convince anyone that your case is anything beyond a dude who hates his job.

I believe that my position does have a lot to do with FIRE. Imagine the lottery winner or one-hit-wonder musician. Once they reach a place of financial independence their motivation commonly leaves. The resulting decay exposes one to all kinds of mental and lifestyle complications. People who retire early are removed from the flow of life. They are often estranged from their peers. Their purpose becomes obscured. Self-esteem erodes.

Once cherished rare opportunities to pursue a hobby become a commonplace daily routine. The days blur into one another and the benefit becomes a curse. As previously determined you are an outlier. You hold a special determination to overcome external and internal challenges. Most others do not have the same resolve and sink into the abyss of doing nothing.  I see it all the time. I also experienced it.

People delude themselves into the fantasy of doing nothing. They convince themselves that they can retire at 35 on a million dollars of savings without considering the unlimited opportunities that life offers to squash their savings. They surrender their professional momentum with the assumption that their industry will welcome them back if needed when the reverse is often the case.

We have precious years of being young. It compels people to abandon their professions to travel the road less traveled without understanding the potential consequences it may bring. My advice is to consider staying the course. Remain healthy and you can blow 30 years in retirement doing that stuff. However, it loses its appeal quickly.

You keep saying the same nonsensical thing over and over and over again.

No one NEEDS to do nothing in retirement.

If you lack motivation, then there are ways to work on that. It's really not hard. If you care AT ALL to improve your life and happiness, there are countless resources available to do so.

But you just ignore them.

That's not FIRE ruining your life, that's you refusing to do absolutely anything to try and improve it.

You said that you came here for advice, but you ignore the advice over and over and over again, and just keep repeating the same complaint over and over and over again.

You will never ever convince anyone here that FIRE ruined your life. You have wasted a huge amount of time trying to convince us of this, but you will just keep smashing your own head against the same wall.

On the flip side, we are ready and able to provide you with advice and resources to improve your situation, and yet you seem to have literally zero interest.

What do you want??

If it's sympathy, you've already been given plenty.
If it's compassion, you've been given that too.
If it's us to agree with you?? Never gonna fucking happen.

So what do you want????
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 21, 2021, 11:17:41 AM
He wants to keep smashing his head against the wall obviously.  He's not here for an honest dialogue. He's here to proselytize and that means not answering questions that stray from the message, especially when you point out logical holes.  I've been in discussions with a few very religious folks who acted in a similar manner.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 11:22:02 AM
No, you never did the early retirement thing. You were laid off and decided to go into self-employment. That's not retirement, that's a career change. FIRE implies you have the freedom to not do self-employment if you don't enjoy it. There's a wide world of other things to do that aren't "long stretches of idle wasted days." It's not a binary choice between unenjoyable manual labor vs. sitting around on the couch.

At 25 I wisely bought a four-plex. At first, I needed a roommate but due to rising rents, I eventually was able to remain in the unit myself. The first year or two I worked a seasonal job as a bush pilot and lived upon my savings and rental income. My miserly tendencies permitted me to cut my expenses down to the nub. I sold my newer truck and took to riding a bike around town much of the time. The four-plex became my "Thoreau's cabin in the woods".  I spent my days going to the library, writing in a journal, and taking cross-country ski classes. My expenses were tightly controlled and I was happy with my minimalist style of life as my social life continued to shrink.

Others my age were at work all the time so I ended up hanging out with those who were also retired. Their median age was 70. I would meet them for lunch at the deli and listen to them complain about politics. Sometimes I would even get up at 5 am to meet them for coffee at McDonald's. Eventually, the math made it so that I realized that I did not have to return to work a job ever again. So long as I kept my costs to a minimum degree I would experience a rising income and a slowly improving lifestyle as the rents continued to exceed my financial needs.

Once that reality completely reached my consciousness I was struck with terror. I had figured out how to do nothing with my life and it was very alluring. Imagine closing the door to the possibility of having a career, family, new experiences, and adventure. I could see the decay of will that had already taken hold, and did not want that trend to continue. In a rash moment, I walked away from that safe life and straight into the uncontrolled current of consumption and financial servitude.

Thankfully the industry had recovered and I was able to secure a low-paying full-time corporate slave job in the city. My financial position reversed as paying rent consumed much of my salary. I had a roommate again and was back in the flow of life. Soon after I found a wife. We started having kids and I lost complete control of my finances and ability to find a safe financial harbor as an urban career slave. It too was terrifying but I had found life again.

I have had other experiences with FIRE too. Prior to 25, I lived in my truck for a year and a half trying to find a meaningful job in my career. Today they call it "Van-Life". I did not like it at all.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 11:29:11 AM
He wants to keep smashing his head against the wall obviously.  He's not here for an honest dialogue. He's here to proselytize and that means not answering questions that stray from the message, especially when you point out logical holes.  I've been in discussions with a few very religious folks who acted in a similar manner.

It is also possible that you wish to hold onto your FIRE religion at all costs. "Dialogue" goes both ways.

Tell us of your FIRE experiences. It is important to add: Age of FIRE, were you satisfied with your career prior to FIRE, do you have children, do you live in the city or country, are you from the working class?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on December 21, 2021, 11:34:28 AM
Troll keeps trolling.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 21, 2021, 11:38:36 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 21, 2021, 11:44:06 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.

Please explain, do you mean Fired" as in fired from a job? I have the means to do nothing every day if I wanted. I have spent many long stretches of idle wasted days as a classicly unencumbered van-life FIRE person also.

In my 20's "van-life" was considered to be homelessness. It wasn't a cool fad.

Financially Independent - "The status of having enough income to pay one's living expenses for the rest of one's live without employment or being dependent upon others".

Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age".

I very much quality as FIRE. My point is that I have continued work functions as a means of staving off boredom and providing an example to my children of how adults are supposed to go to work every day and strive towards their dreams. My dreams were of a professional nature. Yesterday I shoveled snow.

Many people have explained this in this thread.  It's clear you just don't want to understand because it doesn't fit with your narrative.  But Im a glutton for punishment, so....

YOU WERE STILL WORKING.  Therefore, you were not retired, therefore you were not FIREd. 

Not working at the job you want doesn't mean retired.  Working for yourself instead of for some faceless corporation doesn't mean you are retired.  Owning and actively working rental properties is WORKING.  From your ow definition, you did not "Cease to function professionally".  You were a landlord and property manager, and doing those things for money.  So you were a professional landlord and property manager, which means you had a professional function. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 11:52:18 AM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.

Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.

However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.

When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives?  It is just my opinion.


Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 12:12:31 PM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

So you weren't fire and aren't fired thanks for confirming for the 5000000000th time fire isn't your problem bc you've never experienced it.

Please explain, do you mean Fired" as in fired from a job? I have the means to do nothing every day if I wanted. I have spent many long stretches of idle wasted days as a classicly unencumbered van-life FIRE person also.

In my 20's "van-life" was considered to be homelessness. It wasn't a cool fad.

Financially Independent - "The status of having enough income to pay one's living expenses for the rest of one's live without employment or being dependent upon others".

Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age".

I very much quality as FIRE. My point is that I have continued work functions as a means of staving off boredom and providing an example to my children of how adults are supposed to go to work every day and strive towards their dreams. My dreams were of a professional nature. Yesterday I shoveled snow.

Many people have explained this in this thread.  It's clear you just don't want to understand because it doesn't fit with your narrative.  But Im a glutton for punishment, so....

YOU WERE STILL WORKING.  Therefore, you were not retired, therefore you were not FIREd. 

Not working at the job you want doesn't mean retired.  Working for yourself instead of for some faceless corporation doesn't mean you are retired.  Owning and actively working rental properties is WORKING.  From your ow definition, you did not "Cease to function professionally".  You were a landlord and property manager, and doing those things for money.  So you were a professional landlord and property manager, which means you had a professional function.

MMM still does work functions. Brushing your teeth is also a form of work but for most of us, it is not a career. Ripping up carpet and repainting a bedroom is certainly work, however, if someone was a neurologist is that a good use of their education and skills?

Most here seem to be accomplished urban professionals who are proposing to voluntarily cease their contribution to the world early so that they can tend to a flock of chickens. In my experience, that choice comes with a cost.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on December 21, 2021, 12:14:25 PM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.

Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.

However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.

When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives?  It is just my opinion.



It’s clear you have conflated being retired with doing nothing, and that you are correlating the need to work with having a clear purpose in life.

Understanding that both of those are completely false would help you understand why you appear to be so disillusioned with the FIRE community and why you are so unhappy with your choices.

In 7+ pages of this thread I’ve seen you take almost not accountability for your choices, and I’ve heard a constant refrain from you that you had no real choices but the ones you ultimately took. Perversely, you blame your own apparent success for your unhappiness, rather than what seems so painfully obvious to all other participants - that you ‘succeeded’ in areas that held little interest to you, and you frequently chose to do things you openly distain.  There is little wonder you ultimately find things to be somewhat lacking.

Worse, there’s a number of people who are actively trying to help you through these issues.  It’s maddening to watch you sidestep , dodge and ignore repeated questions and comments from these very thoughtful and skilled posters.

Only you can decide to live a wonderful life. You have so many things inherently in your favor it’s ridiculous. To reiterate about a dozen other posters, FIRE is not what has made you unhappy. It doesnt’ even seem like you have ever been truly FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 12:25:42 PM

The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients. I understand the appeal. You are miserable and worn out in your overworked professional lives. 

The idea of lazy days selling turnips at the farmer's market is not a complete picture. Van life can lose its charm fast. Yesterday I was reading an article in the USA Today and there is actually a term for those who return to work after retirement. It is called a "Boomerang Employee". Sometimes it means going back to a previous employer, however often it means putting in the blue vest.

That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on December 21, 2021, 12:26:47 PM

The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients. I understand the appeal. You are miserable and worn out in your overworked professional lives. 

The idea of lazy days selling turnips at the farmer's market is not a complete picture. Van life can lose its charm fast. Yesterday I was reading an article in the USA Today and there is actually a term for those who return to work after retirement. It is called a "Boomerang Employee". Sometimes it means going back to a previous employer, however often it means putting in the blue vest.

That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.

Get a load of this guy, explaining FIRE to a bunch of people who are way better at it than he is.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: seattlecyclone on December 21, 2021, 12:30:11 PM
Right, I choose not to do nothing.

There's a miles-long list of "not-nothing" things you can do with your time. Why did you choose to spend so many years on property management, a thing you have made abundantly clear you dislike? Either you were forced into that because you didn't have enough money to be financially independent, or worse, you were FI and you chose unhappiness with your own free will.

That's why the rest of us continue to be so incredulous about your self-described FIRE status. To us, FIRE is incongruous with feeling forced into much of anything where paid labor is concerned. FIRE is having freedom to choose to spend your time with zero regard given to how much money you'll earn doing it. Some of us think a life of leisure sounds pretty nice, but that's hardly a requirement for FIRE. If you want to spend your early retirement doing useful things, do that, but do useful things that you enjoy. Don't give us this baloney of how you were FIRE while also having little option but to do self-employment that you hated. That's a contradiction to our understanding of the basic definition of FIRE, and you're not going to convince anyone here otherwise.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 21, 2021, 12:35:36 PM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.

Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.

However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.

When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives?  It is just my opinion.



It’s clear you have conflated being retired with doing nothing, and that you are correlating the need to work with having a clear purpose in life.

Understanding that both of those are completely false would help you understand why you appear to be so disillusioned with the FIRE community and why you are so unhappy with your choices.

In 7+ pages of this thread I’ve seen you take almost not accountability for your choices, and I’ve heard a constant refrain from you that you had no real choices but the ones you ultimately took. Perversely, you blame your own apparent success for your unhappiness, rather than what seems so painfully obvious to all other participants - that you ‘succeeded’ in areas that held little interest to you, and you frequently chose to do things you openly distain.  There is little wonder you ultimately find things to be somewhat lacking.

Worse, there’s a number of people who are actively trying to help you through these issues.  It’s maddening to watch you sidestep , dodge and ignore repeated questions and comments from these very thoughtful and skilled posters.

Only you can decide to live a wonderful life. You have so many things inherently in your favor it’s ridiculous. To reiterate about a dozen other posters, FIRE is not what has made you unhappy. It doesnt’ even seem like you have ever been truly FIRE.

I am saying a lot of things.

One of them is that I was laid off from my professional preference by a company that ceased to function.

I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career.

Read my posts again. I have been completely retired several times at a young age and experienced a lot of negative things.

Everything in life has its positives and negatives. Even FIRE. Many here want to perpetuate the myth that FIRE is fault-free.

Once my financial world started to improve through FIRE and my industry recovered I tried to return to my career. FIRE made it difficult. Since then I have reached a personal maximum age and must concede defeat.

Have you lived a FIRE life? Some here claimed to have a few years with it, but often the true cost will not be felt until you are past your working years and looking back. Until you have lived it for an extended time it is a fantasy.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 21, 2021, 12:39:34 PM
I had to choose FIRE as a means of providing for others.

Can you please explain what that means?  Specifically, how does earning zero income allow you to provide for others?

You may have misunderstood. FIRE has been a long and slow climb of grotesque manual labor for me. Years of humiliation perfecting skills I learned in high school. When you are in business for yourself you are forced to also take on tasks that you have no talent or interest in. In contrast, when someone has a career they are largely immersed in their professional focus and not expected to complete financial spreadsheets and contract negotiations.

Much of the time my net income was zero due to the straight-line depreciation of assets thanks to the tax code.  Elan Musk is worth more and more each year but does not pay a cent in income tax because his gain is not realized unless he sells. In my case, I would build a house with the help of subcontractors, and personal labor. It would cost me around 65% of the appraised value to complete a house. Once done I could get an 80% loan-to-value cash-out refinance loan that would repay my initial investment and provide a 15% margin that I used to live on as I built the next home.

Later I opened a real estate brokerage. Now I have employees who rely upon this business to provide for their needs. I don't take a salary from the brokerage.

You weren't *FORCED*.  You chose that.  You did.  You've actually told us that repeatedly.  You've said you could have afforded to hire it out but because youa re frugal, you *chose* to do it yourself.

You are not a victim of this.  You weighed your options, which included continuing to push for a pilot job, or hiring out the labor, or even selling the properties all together.  You knew each of those existed and you decided they weren't the right fit.  These things didn't happen to you.  You chose them. 

You are not a victim of a cruel world here.  You are not a boat beating on against the current, borne back ceaslessly into manual labor.  Stop playing the victim to your own life and your own choices.  If you don't like where your choices brought you, make different choices.

Right, I choose not to do nothing. My preference was to have enjoyed a professional career, however, I have had to settle with a manual labor position in life. My choice was to provide for my family. FIRE became that path after I was laid off. It is my fallback trade.

However, FIRE comes with a downside. It can rob people of their drive. It often removes the urgency of having to plow through the hard days that every career has. It can lull people into a state of dormancy that can result in missing out on opportunities. It is the easy road.

When you are old and looking back is it possible that you would prefer to have enjoyed a life of challenge and accomplishment instead of decades of ease? Old age will offer plenty of idle time to sit without a purpose. Why do that when young? Are we not here to do something with our lives?  It is just my opinion.


First, you CHOSE TO KEEP WORKING.  NOT FIRE!!!!!!

Second, the bolded is ridiculous.  FIRE doesn't rob someone of their drive.  If you ever retire (because no, you are not retired/FIREd) and you decide so sit on your ass and do nothing, that isn't FIRE.  That's you.  That said, knowing yourself is important and for someone who lacks the discipline, drive, or ambition to stay busy in meaningful ways in FIRE probably shouldn't FIR or at least not until they've worked with a therapist to sort out their goals and motivations. 

So yeah, I don't think retirement is a great fit for everyone, or at least not without a lot of self-reflection an internal work first.  That's very different than saying the FIRE is bad though.  It's like saying credit cards are bad.  No, they are not.  But someone who doesn't have the discipline to use them wisely should avoid them, at least until they work on the discipline needed not to use them to overspend, and the psychology of why the overspend in the first place.

So just because you can't use a tool safely or wisely doesn't mean you should condone it for everyone.  The problem isn't with the tool; it's with the user.


Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on December 21, 2021, 12:40:33 PM

The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients.

No, it’s not.  I think that’s the core problem - you think you are discussing post-FIRE disappointment, when in reality the issues you repeatedly describe are only tangentially related.


That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.

Running out of money is a financial failure. Running out of motivation, getting bored and losing contact has little to do with being retired - and has everything to do with your decisions and what you choose to do with your life. One can be deeply unhappy while retired. One can be deeply unhappy while earning a decent wage. The two conditions share many similarities, and they have nothing to do with the amount of money you have in your bank account. Early retirement won’t solve your problems (as has been discussed countless times on this forum) - but neither will going back to work
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on December 21, 2021, 12:41:23 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."   
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: sui generis on December 21, 2021, 12:50:29 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Indeed.  FIRE is not a way to "provide" for a family it's something you can choose to do if you have *already* provided.

The disconnect here is just. so. profound. 

I was going to say it's like we're speaking a different language but it's not that simple.  The worst part is, we all recognize the disconnect, but skyhigh keeps insisting there is not one.  If the other person in a conversation can't recognize the disconnect, progress is not possible. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lutorm on December 21, 2021, 12:59:03 PM
I'm very confused, because it seems you are willing to work very hard, but only on things you dislike? You mow lawns, which you hate, but when it comes to your airline career, you dismiss getting hired by regionals because your goal is to fly for a major airline.

Generally, having a career depends on taking gradual and successive steps that lead you in the direction you want, not sitting on your ass complaining that no one wants to hire you for your dream job. I know many pilots who have struggled for years, accumulating experience in various not-so-desirable positions before they finally got hired for their dream job. In fact, it seems to be pretty much the norm.

You don't seem to be willing to do that. You were laid off and had to take another job to pay the bills. That happens. But now you say you're financially independent, so why aren't you out looking for whatever flying job you can find in order to start re-building the experience that will get you heading in the right direction?

The fact that you are not willing to do that and prefers to sit around saying external factors caused your situation makes it seem like you're self-sabotaging in order to not have to face the possibility that maybe your failed career is due to your own actions.

For what it's worth, I also grew up working class, was the first person in my family to go to college, and, with hindsight, did not have the benefits that someone who's from a family with higher education background does. But one step led to another and I'm very happy with where I am today. Not everything went according to plan (to the extent that I had one), but taking opportunities that presented themselves led me to a good place. It's absolutely true that people with working-class backgrounds have disadvantages, but given how receptive to feedback you have shown yourself to be in this thread I suspect your personality might be a bigger obstacle to convincing hiring managers that you're the man/woman for the job.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 21, 2021, 01:00:37 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

You don't know what it means because it is nonsensical.  OP wants to be FIRE so he can blame is problems on FIRE.  But he's saying, "I chose self-employment as the [supposedly] only option to provide for my family when my dream career failed and I was too lazy or unmotivated or intent on martyrdom to do anything other than default to something convenient but that I hated." 

He's very clearly  saying he wasn't Financially Independent because he says he used this to provide for his family. And yet he still claims to be FIREd.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on December 21, 2021, 01:02:03 PM
Not going to bother to even try to dialogue with the OP as it is clear he is not willing/able to benefit from any attempt to provide a different point of view or experience.

However, since many are watching/engaging with this thread, maybe we can divert it toward providing links to alternative resources that MIGHT help anyone inclined to sink into the morass the OP finds himself in.

This recent episode of James Altucher's podcast has an interesting discussion of the benefits of orienting oneself toward gains (improvements/achievements) rather than gaps (losses/disappointments) -- OP seems to be firmly rooted in gap-based thinking...

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9SRW5feDZ6Uw/episode/ZTQ3Mzc0NWUtN2Y1ZC00ZWZlLTkyZjgtMTJjY2FkNWIxOWQx?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwj4qPGd1vX0AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQCg&hl=en

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on December 21, 2021, 01:22:25 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Indeed.  FIRE is not a way to "provide" for a family it's something you can choose to do if you have *already* provided.

The disconnect here is just. so. profound.   

Yeah, what is going on here? It feels like a language barrier of some sort.  Maybe OP is thinking of being able to scrape by on rental income by having minimal expenses for a single person? 

And you were never "retired" several times if you couldn't provide for your family while not working.  Being FI means being able to provide for the lifestyle that you choose, including a family if you want one and whatever else you value like travel or tuition, without ever having to be employed again. So if you worked a labor job to provide for your family, that's not any part of FIRE.

Most people here plan/save for more than they will ever need and have back up plans. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Metalcat on December 21, 2021, 01:34:30 PM
@Skyhigh

I officially give up. You are remarkably committed to a version of reality that keeps you miserable. That's very sad.

If you ever actually want to work on your problems and learn how to live a happier, healthier, better life, feel free to PM me.

Otherwise I'm out.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 21, 2021, 01:45:56 PM

The thread is about post FIRE. I have a lot of personal experience with it and through my peers and clients. I understand the appeal. You are miserable and worn out in your overworked professional lives. 

The idea of lazy days selling turnips at the farmer's market is not a complete picture. Van life can lose its charm fast. Yesterday I was reading an article in the USA Today and there is actually a term for those who return to work after retirement. It is called a "Boomerang Employee". Sometimes it means going back to a previous employer, however often it means putting in the blue vest.

That is all that I am saying. Days off lose their meaning. Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up. People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. A lot of the appeal of FIRE is an illusion. It is better though if you achieve FIRE after you have enjoyed a full career and your peers are also retired.

I have been FIREd for about 3 years, from ages 42-45.  They have, unequivocally, been by far the best years of my life.  I had been on the fast track in my little part of megacorp straddling the line between management and technical work.  I was in various roles like "Chief Engineer" when they needed someone who could interact with our government customer in a technical role, or "Project Manager" when they needed someone technical who could do the planning to get a project up and running.  At my "peak" I was the Integration and Test Lead for one software build of a very, very large government program.  I was not in any way "miserable and worn out in (my) overworked professional (life)".  I think I maintained a good work/life balance, I had the respect of my peers and management, and I always had top results on the surveys of my employees.  I only offer this context to unequivocally state you are absolutely incorrect - many of us are not trying to escape a "miserable and ... overworked professional life."

You're also wrong that days off lose their meaning.  I volunteer as a math tutor at the library near an "alternative" school.  Most students there have had difficulties in the public school system and have this as a backup option.  I have helped students who are good at math but think they're bad at math gain confidence.  I've helped students prepare for the SAT and ACT.  I've helped students get caught up after falling behind.  This absofuckinglutely fills my days with meaning.  I also volunteer with my alma mater, helping students get internships, refine their resumes, practice job interviews, and help them make contacts that may lead to a career.  No meaning?  All the people starting their engineering career who I helped would probably disagree.

"Hobbies become boring and social lives dry up."  Hah!  I have trouble fitting in the activities I have scheduled with my friends.  Most are still working, but that just means getting together on the weekend or for dinner after they finish work.  Hobbies become boring?  I am fine-tuning a piece of music I've been learning on the piano so I can perform it.  The more I play the piano the more fun it becomes because I can play better music. 

"People get bored and often the money runs out too fast. " - Hah again!  I was bored all the time at work.  Since I FIREd?  Maybe 5 minutes in 3 years.  Maybe.  As for the money running out?  I have nearly $1M more than I FIREd with.  This year I had one of the best years of my entire life.  I'm happy, fulfilled, and want for nothing.  Yet even so I spent under 2% of my 'stache. 

I'm not saying this to brag.  I'm pretty ordinary around these parts.  Honestly when I read the amazing things that people here are doing that's one of the only times I feel jealous at this point of my life.  This forum, and the Post-FIRE subforum in particular, gives me insight into people living an even better Post-FIRE life than I'm living.  That provides motivation for me to do more. 

In another post you wrote, "We have precious years of being young."  I couldn't agree more.  I had a decision to make when I was 42.  I could spend my time in conference rooms in endless meetings, sitting at a desk staring at planning spreadsheets, or I could pursue all of the fun things, challenging things, fulfilling things, and wild ideas that life has to offer.  I decided, as you wrote, that we have precious years of being young.  I have made the youngest years of my life after the first 42 exploring a teeny-tiny fraction of the wonderful things this world has to offer. 

You have a choice.  You can continue to spread your mistaken ideas about the dangers of FIRE and lament missed opportunities.  Or you could take a new look at the opportunities still available for you to chase, and the dreams you can still fulfill.  Your choice.  If you choose the latter you have a whole group of people here who have tried to help and many who will continue to help.  Engage with us on what's still possible for you.  As someone wisely said, "We have precious years of being young".  What are you going to do with the next year of your life, which is the youngest you'll be from now on? 

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 21, 2021, 02:01:31 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.   
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on December 21, 2021, 02:04:17 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 21, 2021, 02:08:36 PM
^ Dunno. That's why everyone is banging their heads on their keyboards. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on December 21, 2021, 02:31:39 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…
Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 21, 2021, 02:43:59 PM
@Skyhigh

I hear you.  FIRE is not a magic bullet.  And it is not for everyone.  For some, it could even be toxic.  A friend of mine could easily FIRE in 3-5 if she would stop spending 15 dollars a day on Starbucks, driving luxury vehicles on lease, overconsuming housing, weekly mani/pedi, weekly spa, and being just redonkulously consumerist.  But to her spending money is happiness.  I'm convinced she would be even more unhappy in early retirement, even if she could still afford "all the things".   She needs the cycle.  She rather have a long hours slog of pointless meetings, chasing borked reconciliations, and forever behind the 8-ball of a monthly/quarterly close cycle.  I was once "pretty good" at that game.  But it brought me no joy.  It was passionless.  So I stopped doing it.   Clue: I had "choices". 

FIRE is probably not for you either [for very different reasons].  I have no problem with that.  I was always kind of weird.  Square peg.  I never fit in to work/consume/die.  I never fit into [advance a career].  I fit in to FIRE.  For the first time in 40 years I fit.  I'm deeply content after 9.5 years of idleness.  You seem to be judging people who choose FIRE and are very happy with the outcome.  You also seem to be judging laborers.  My first professional job, we had a truck driver from upper crust society and an MS in Finance.  He preferred to drive a truck into oilfields and deliver barite.  He would think you sort of insane. 

So I hold nothing against you for your CHOICE to engage in self employment.  What bugs the crap out of me is  you CHOOSE to be miserable.    You have some very #firstworldproblems.  A little gratitude would probably go a long way for you.  Might even break the cycle of viewing life as a [bad thing] that happens TO you.  Surely, you would be happier if you could cultivate an attitude that you are a force of nature that is happening to the world.  And you can truly be that type of dynamo.  A layoff and real estate career isn't exactly a gun to your head.  You can choose, starting right now; happiness.  Or at least contentment.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Financial.Velociraptor on December 21, 2021, 02:49:31 PM
@Skyhigh

I hear you.  FIRE is not a magic bullet.  And it is not for everyone.  For some, it could even be toxic.  A friend of mine could easily FIRE in 3-5 if she would stop spending 15 dollars a day on Starbucks, driving luxury vehicles on lease, overconsuming housing, weekly mani/pedi, weekly spa, and being just redonkulously consumerist.  But to her spending money is happiness.  I'm convinced she would be even more unhappy in early retirement, even if she could still afford "all the things".   She needs the cycle.  She rather have a long hours slog of pointless meetings, chasing borked reconciliations, and forever behind the 8-ball of a monthly/quarterly close cycle.  I was once "pretty good" at that game.  But it brought me no joy.  It was passionless.  So I stopped doing it.   Clue: I had "choices". 

FIRE is probably not for you either [for very different reasons].  I have no problem with that.  I was always kind of weird.  Square peg.  I never fit in to work/consume/die.  I never fit into [advance a career].  I fit in to FIRE.  For the first time in 40 years I fit.  I'm deeply content after 9.5 years of idleness.  You seem to be judging people who choose FIRE and are very happy with the outcome.  You also seem to be judging laborers.  My first professional job, we had a truck driver from upper crust society and an MS in Finance.  He preferred to drive a truck into oilfields and deliver barite.  He would think you sort of insane. 

So I hold nothing against you for your CHOICE to engage in self employment.  What bugs the crap out of me is  you CHOOSE to be miserable.    You have some very #firstworldproblems.  A little gratitude would probably go a long way for you.  Might even break the cycle of viewing life as a [bad thing] that happens TO you.  Surely, you would be happier if you could cultivate an attitude that you are a force of nature that is happening to the world.  And you can truly be that type of dynamo.  A layoff and real estate career isn't exactly a gun to your head.  You can choose, starting right now; happiness.  Or at least contentment.

Want to add: I met for lunch with a member of this forum.  (I still do things in FIRE).  He is easily FI.  and chooses to keep working so long as his work is engaging.  He noted working from home during COVID has given him perspective that retirement might not be for him at all.  At least not until the kids are out of the house.  I'll note, he also chooses to pursue happiness.  Whether you are truly or FIRE or not has nothing to do with whether you CHOOSE to happy or miserable.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 21, 2021, 02:53:30 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…
Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.

Did we just solve the miscommunication?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on December 21, 2021, 03:03:25 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…
Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.

Did we just solve the miscommunication?

No - he states he thinks RE is "Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age"."
He's got a fixation on "professional", which I think to him means being a doctor, lawyer, or airline pilot for a major airline. All the rest doesn't count.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 21, 2021, 03:22:21 PM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…
Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.

Did we just solve the miscommunication?

No - he states he thinks RE is "Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age"."
He's got a fixation on "professional", which I think to him means being a doctor, lawyer, or airline pilot for a major airline. All the rest doesn't count.

Whatever he thinks FIRE is, it's not what most of us discuss here. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on December 22, 2021, 08:23:10 AM
Quote from: Skyhigh
I was forced to take a different path in order to provide for my family

Quote from: Skyhigh
I don't believe that FIRE is healthy for humans. It is unnatural in human history

I do not accept volunteerism as an adequate form of employment

Quote from: Skyhigh
wasted years volunteering

Quote from: Skyhigh
taking unnecessary college classes to fill the time. I am bored of it all.

Quote from: Skyhigh
wasted years volunteering

Quote from: Skyhigh
It shouldn't happen to someone until they are much older

Quote from: Skyhigh
useless hobbies and volunteerism

So it has been said unto our ears, highly paid corporate work has value, as nothing else does.

One does not simply get respect and live a satisfying life without the appropriate pay and title to prove it.

You can retire when you're dead!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on December 22, 2021, 08:39:45 AM
I cannot imagine a life where my guiding (and perhaps only) principle is that predatory capitalism is the only metric of a human's worth.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 22, 2021, 08:53:01 AM
I cannot imagine a life where my guiding (and perhaps only) principle is that predatory capitalism is the only metric of a human's worth.
This x10
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on December 22, 2021, 09:00:09 AM
I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career.

(https://c.tenor.com/q9crr_x6HLYAAAAC/princess-bride-you-keep-using-that-word.gif)
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on December 22, 2021, 09:35:39 AM
I cannot imagine a life where my guiding (and perhaps only) principle is that predatory capitalism is the only metric of a human's worth.

What’s fascinating (in a bizarre sort of meaning) is what this would say about many of the worlds philanthropists and charity workers. Gates, Rockefeller and Carnegie had high societal worth until they quit their respective empires and pivoted towards giving their fortunes to various causes. Mother Teresa and Florence nightingale never had much societal worth.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Adventine on December 22, 2021, 09:44:51 AM
It's been quite the read. Skyhigh is committed to being a bad faith poster.


Over and out.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 22, 2021, 03:48:39 PM
This thread seems to be a dumpster fire (dumpster FIRE?) but it did get me thinking. With my husband joining me in FIRE as of last week officially everyone in my little family is retired. My parents retired at the traditional age and have been living it up. They go on long hikes in the countryside, eat out in restaurants and cafes, and then spend the afternoon reading or whatever other individual pursuits. My sister sold everything she owned, invested the proceeds in Vanguard, and has joined my parents. She intended to go back to work but between covid and Brexit, she was finding that tough. So she ran her numbers again and realized she didn't have to go back to work if she watched her budget closely. Who knows what the future will bring for her, but I can say with certainty that she is a lot happier than she was this time last year.

My aunt and uncle were OG mustachians way before FIRE was a term. My aunt was forced into early retirement at age 42 due to medical reasons but subsequently has made big strides with her health. She is the president of her HOA. They volunteer and donate tons to a food bank. The attend political protests. They have cruised the world more times than I can count. My uncle restores old phonographs and is a recognized expert in the subject around the world. He has his own YouTube channel where he teaches others his knowledge (my aunt does the videos). (Shameless plug! (https://www.youtube.com/user/1974hurt)) My aunt regularly tells me she "doesn't know how I ever had time to work, life is so busy!".

On my end I feel my official FIRE only started once my littlest started at preschool earlier this year. I'm still decompressing from the shit show that was covid stuck at home with little kids, but already things are awesome in spurts. I've almost finished completely repainting the interior of the house we recently bought. I've done other house projects which has been cool learning new skills. I am baking bread. I have gotten a lot better and more adventurous with my cooking. I'm doing some indoor bouldering. I run 3-4 times a week. I love my bike. I'm reading multiple books a week in two languages. I have many other things on my list I'll get to slowly. It can be hard to fit it in around little kids, but I feel like I have a long list of fun things to play and not enough time to get to them all.

So anyway, point being that I would consider myself as coming from a FIRE family like OP has said he considers his family to be FIRE. The difference being everyone around me is really HAPPY about their lot in life and doing lots of fun stuff. For my aunt in particular it is cool seeing her get more recognition and leadership experience with her volunteer stuff than she ever did in her career. She probably could have been awesome in the corporate world if there had been more opportunities for women than teacher-secretary-nurse back when she was young.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Fru-Gal on December 22, 2021, 03:57:37 PM
That's really inspiring and reassuring, @ysette9!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Psychstache on December 23, 2021, 08:07:34 AM
We haven't had a thread this lacking in reading comprehension and self awareness since Mr. Orange.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on December 25, 2021, 11:28:20 AM
Here's another take on how to successfully blend being a pilot with a rental business from somebody who actually did both and enjoys it a lot:

https://millionairesunveiled.com/podcast/140-net-worth-of-2-2m-airline-pilot-who-didnt-make-100k-until-age-46/

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Mrs. Healthywealth on December 25, 2021, 02:27:30 PM
Interesting topic. First thought that popped up, help rejecter and victim stance. This thread  really shows how depressive symptoms and help rejecting/complaining can impact our lives. Sometimes we get so use to a victim stance, becoming solution oriented and being able to see our lives outside of just the negative perspective can be challenging.

Don’t see this as an issue of being FIRE’d or not, the issues are valid for this individual regardless of whether they are RE or not. Hope OP seeks out a mental health professional to work with on the thoughts/emotions/behaviors. Dealing with this perspective for as many years as OP has been dealing with must be overwhelming and impacts everyone around that individual-kids and all.

Found this to explain this type of mentality: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-couch/201410/whats-the-best-way-deal-help-rejecting-complainers

Wish you the best of luck, and am not trying to be condescending in tone. Sincerely hope you gain some insight into how your own perspective is impacting your reality.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Fru-Gal on December 26, 2021, 02:15:59 PM
I was going to add a perspective on how people really don't want others to solve their problems, they want genuine empathetic recognition of the depth of them, but the article you just posted says it all SO WELL. Great points that I see applying to people I know, dealt a terrible hand years ago and can't transcend it (also this may be a form of PTSD).

To me the goal is to expand the self-efficacy/agency in one area of life to other areas where one may not be able to "get past" painful events. Almost everyone has at least one thing in life that they don't even question their efficacy at. Ironically, even if this is a "negative" (say, in my case, I know I can always enjoy delicious food but I also complain about my weight gain), there are people (say with GI problems, or an eating disorder) who would see eating whatever you want as a tremendous luxury. When you can finally observe your own latent agency and then use it to tackle other problems, that's powerful.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 27, 2021, 08:44:23 AM

The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.

For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals. 

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.

Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.

I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.

Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 27, 2021, 08:59:46 AM

Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.

This is where you consistently trip up and get this fundamentally wrong. You may believe this is the case for yourself, though you don’t actually know because it sounds like you have never been FIREd yourself. We are here all together telling you that this is NOT a universal experience. It is wrong of you to continue insisting that it is in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

*** I hope you enjoyed your holidays.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on December 27, 2021, 09:17:18 AM

The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.

For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals. 

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.

Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.

I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.

Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.

1) If you think FIRE is so bad, why the living BLEEP are you working to help others achieve it?
2) The "magic" is that you start at the bottom and work up. No magic. Just stuff you've said over and over again you're not interested in doing because it's beneath you.

No, some form of "employment" is not required. It is FOR YOU. The end. Your definition of employment is ridiculously narrow and is contributing, IMO, to your deep unhappiness.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 27, 2021, 09:22:55 AM

Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.

This is where you consistently trip up and get this fundamentally wrong. You may believe this is the case for yourself, though you don’t actually know because it sounds like you have never been FIREd yourself. We are here all together telling you that this is NOT a universal experience. It is wrong of you to continue insisting that it is in the face of all evidence to the contrary.

*** I hope you enjoyed your holidays.

I have been FIREd during several stretches of my life. In my current business, I work with clients who also have FIREd and have that experience as well. My parents FIREd when in their mid-40’s. My grandparents all retired young. I have spent my life examining this subject very closely and believe that I have a lot of experience with it.

It is possible that you have not been in that situation for long enough to have experienced the effects that I refer to.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 27, 2021, 09:38:49 AM

In my experience, it often takes an entrepreneurial attitude to develop the self-discipline, skills, and risk acceptance needed to achieve FIRE. However, those same people are not the ones who would often choose to retire. They need a constant stream of challenges and projects to remain satisfied.

I have friends who can not understand why, at my advanced age and financial position, would I go back to college to acquire yet another professional designation. They dream of retiring early, however, do not seem to have the discipline to do what it takes. They continue to dream about it while they watch TV.

Others who are able to accumulate a small pile of cash feel that it is appropriate to abandon their profession early. They place all their hopes on the stock market and other social promises. All I see is a perilous future for them. It is likely that their math will fail and they will be forced back into the job market long after their professional value has expired.

I understand that my perspective is different than most others here. It is exactly what a forum was meant to do. It is a place to share ideas and experiences.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 27, 2021, 09:45:04 AM
I...don't know what this even means. "I chose FIRE as my only option to provide for my family due to an underperforming career."

Similar statements have caused confusion throughout this thread.  By "FIRE" the OP means self-employment.   Apparently at some point he became FI, but he is still working, doing unfulfilling tasks he hates.  So, he's never RE'd.

Well what does the OP think the “RE” portion of “FIRE” means?  Or the FI part for that matter…
Real Estate? As in Financial Independence via Real Estate.
That would actually make this thread slightly less absurd.

Did we just solve the miscommunication?

No - he states he thinks RE is "Retiring Early - "Ceasing a professional function prior to the commonly accepted age"."
He's got a fixation on "professional", which I think to him means being a doctor, lawyer, or airline pilot for a major airline. All the rest doesn't count.

Right, if a neurologist abandons their profession early to sell turnips at the farmers market it is not a benefit to themselves or to the world at large. Some of us have been blessed with the intelligence, education, opportunity, and resources to achieve a higher function in this life. 

To voluntarily vacate that meaningful interface with the world is not a benefit to anyone in my opinion.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 27, 2021, 10:20:09 AM

The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.

For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals. 

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.

Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.

I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.

Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.

Pete had a friend rePete what's Pete's friends name

Seriously I can understand why no one is hiring you. You don't have the ability to be presented information process it and respond to it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on December 27, 2021, 10:27:11 AM
Again with the turnips!  :) :)

Not having just fallen off the turnip truck I'm with Candide, "one must cultivate one's own garden".  You seem to keep very busy in your garden of FIRE nay saying, although maybe not digging very deep. But in the end, to each his or her own turnips.

Right, if a neurologist abandons their profession early to sell turnips at the farmers market it is not a benefit to themselves or to the world at large. Some of us have been blessed with the intelligence, education, opportunity, and resources to achieve a higher function in this life.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 27, 2021, 10:38:19 AM

The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.

For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals. 

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.

Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.

I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.

Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.

Pete had a friend rePete what's Pete's friends name

Seriously I can understand why no one is hiring you. You don't have the ability to be presented information process it and respond to it.

This is a forum where people strive to retain their privacy. I am not going to start listing names and offering references if that is what you are asking for.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 27, 2021, 10:40:26 AM
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks


Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today!  my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 27, 2021, 10:42:22 AM
Again with the turnips!  :) :)

Not having just fallen off the turnip truck I'm with Candide, "one must cultivate one's own garden".  You seem to keep very busy in your garden of FIRE nay saying, although maybe not digging very deep. But in the end, to each his or her own turnips.

Right, if a neurologist abandons their profession early to sell turnips at the farmers market it is not a benefit to themselves or to the world at large. Some of us have been blessed with the intelligence, education, opportunity, and resources to achieve a higher function in this life.

It seems to me that many here hold the image of a simple life in FIRE of chasing chickens and working in the garden. In my experience it gets old and usually costs far more than it ever produces.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 27, 2021, 10:45:32 AM
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks


Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today!  my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.

I don’t have a good answer for that. FIRE is in competition with other goals.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on December 27, 2021, 10:48:29 AM
This whole thread is "OP is the only one who doesn't see it."

I'm out.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 27, 2021, 11:36:49 AM
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks


Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today!  my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.

I don’t have a good answer for that. FIRE is in competition with other goals.

Whooosh

Maybe the op could use a trip to Derek Zoolander's school ?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DadJokes on December 27, 2021, 11:52:41 AM
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks


Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today!  my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.

I don’t have a good answer for that. FIRE is in competition with other goals.

Whooosh

Maybe the op could use a trip to Derek Zoolander's school ?

I'm pretty sure that he's just trolling you guys.

I know that most people are pretty dumb, but I'm having a difficult time imagining that someone could be this dense.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on December 27, 2021, 12:31:27 PM

The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.

For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals. 

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.

Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.

I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.

Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.

How do you deal with the fundamental hypocrisy of thinking FIRE is terrible for people, and taking money from people to help them achieve FIRE?  You think it is "not healthy or normal" but your life's work is pushing people toward it.   Personally, I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror in the morning if I knew I was going to spend my days doing something I thought was fundamentally damaging to people.  I'd feel like an epic a-hole in that scenario, and I'd end it immediately.

And your insistence that retirement is just laying around and gardening is a fundamental lack of imagination and some ignorant stereotyping.  People have posted example after example, but you just ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative or martyrdom and self-pity.  I actually hope you are a troll, because that is probably a more mild form of pitiable than if all of this is real.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on December 27, 2021, 12:35:16 PM

The holiday took much of my attention over the last few days.

For the record: I am a fully educated, trained, and experienced professional who was faced with a difficult employment environment in my field over the last 30 years. I did not choose FIRE. It was my primary option after being laid off at a young age. FIRE has since been in competition with my career goals. 

My business is to help others to achieve FIRE through real estate investments. I am also nearing completion of training to become a Certified Financial Planner this spring. I do not believe that retirement is healthy or a normal human experience. It is especially hard on the young.

Many here are earn, save, spent urban professionals who know the culture of what it takes to be successful in the professional job market. It was my aim to understand what magic it takes to break into a heavily defended job market. Others here seem to want to paint me as needing mental help because I am not ready to lay down and work in the garden for the rest of my life.

I do not believe that those who propose to retire on savings can truly claim to be Financially Independent. In my opinion you are very dependent upon the stock market, inflation rates, the survival of social security, and more. You can’t control events that may unravel your plans such as unexpected health challenges, divorce, boredom, and other unpredictable spectrum of events that can easily destroy savings.

Some form of employment is required to stave off boredom, maintain health, diversify income streams, and to retain a sense of purpose. If one is to be employed then it should be something that challenges the full spectrum of their talents, training, and gifts.

How do you deal with the fundamental hypocrisy of thinking FIRE is terrible for people, and taking money from people to help them achieve FIRE?  You think it is "not healthy or normal" but your life's work is pushing people toward it.   Personally, I wouldn't be able to look myself in the mirror in the morning if I knew I was going to spend my days doing something I thought was fundamentally damaging to people.  I'd feel like an epic a-hole in that scenario, and I'd end it immediately.

And your insistence that retirement is just laying around and gardening is a fundamental lack of imagination and some ignorant stereotyping.  People have posted example after example, but you just ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative or martyrdom and self-pity.  I actually hope you are a troll, because that is probably a more mild form of pitiable than if all of this is real.

+1
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on December 27, 2021, 01:38:37 PM

I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.


Senior management here. We’ve been hiring as fast as possible and have taken on several formerly self-employed people. They are wonderful, and we don’t consider self employment to be a negative on a resume. What I can say here is that there are a ton of red flags that would make me hesitant to give you a second interview, and none have to do with your history of self-employment or “FIRE”.

I would strongly encourage you to read through www.askamanager.com (http://www.askamanager.com) for some very real advice. With some critical reflection I believe you can pinpoint several reasons why you have had minimal success and - with a lot of practice - you could change your fortunes around

Good luck!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on December 27, 2021, 04:18:02 PM
It’s like a big train wreck. I know I shouldn’t look but somehow I just can’t stop myself.

I think we have all concluded this thread is hopeless.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 27, 2021, 04:19:58 PM
It’s like a big train wreck. I know I shouldn’t look but somehow I just can’t stop myself.

I think we have all concluded this thread is hopeless.

Yep. Troll or not it's a worthless thread.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: eyesonthehorizon on December 27, 2021, 10:51:58 PM
All the value in it is coming from other posters, for sure, but it stands to help unintended targets. E.g.
I was going to add a perspective on how people really don't want others to solve their problems, they want genuine empathetic recognition of the depth of them, but the article you just posted says it all SO WELL. Great points that I see applying to people I know, dealt a terrible hand years ago and can't transcend it (also this may be a form of PTSD).

To me the goal is to expand the self-efficacy/agency in one area of life to other areas where one may not be able to "get past" painful events. Almost everyone has at least one thing in life that they don't even question their efficacy at. Ironically, even if this is a "negative" (say, in my case, I know I can always enjoy delicious food but I also complain about my weight gain), there are people (say with GI problems, or an eating disorder) who would see eating whatever you want as a tremendous luxury. When you can finally observe your own latent agency and then use it to tackle other problems, that's powerful.
Emphasis mine. I barely have anything to say except "this framing helped me." Thank you.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 28, 2021, 01:11:33 AM

I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.


Senior management here. We’ve been hiring as fast as possible and have taken on several formerly self-employed people. They are wonderful, and we don’t consider self employment to be a negative on a resume. What I can say here is that there are a ton of red flags that would make me hesitant to give you a second interview, and none have to do with your history of self-employment or “FIRE”.

It is too late for the OP, but in case someone else is reading this thread...I've been self-employed for 17 years.  In the last say, two years, I've had multiple clients ask to hire me.  One has a standing offer.  I'm hit up regularly (once a month-ish) by corporate recruiters wanting to connect. 

Nothing I do is particularly hard or special.  I just have a record of delivering on time and making things easy for people who hire me.  That is a low bar, but it is high enough companies are eager to hire people who can clear that bar.

I mention this for two reasons, one is that fear of being unable to re-enter the workforce shouldn't scare anyone off self-employment, with rare special exceptions.  The second and I believe more importantly is that self-employment can allow you to Coast FIRE, and/or reduce sequence of returns risk by creating income, if you choose.



Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on December 28, 2021, 02:00:19 AM
Thanks to this conversation  I have hired a career coach.
[I know I shouldn't ask this, or post on this thread, having tried to help the OP in a trainwreck thread prior to this train wreck, but I just can't help myself.]

So...how'd that career coach work out?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Fru-Gal on December 28, 2021, 08:38:41 AM
Thank you, @eyesonthehorizon. Between raising teenagers and helping people close to me after some tragic events I hope I gained a little wisdom.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 28, 2021, 09:11:01 AM

Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.

Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.

I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on December 28, 2021, 09:13:23 AM

I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.


Senior management here. We’ve been hiring as fast as possible and have taken on several formerly self-employed people. They are wonderful, and we don’t consider self employment to be a negative on a resume. What I can say here is that there are a ton of red flags that would make me hesitant to give you a second interview, and none have to do with your history of self-employment or “FIRE”.

I would strongly encourage you to read through www.askamanager.com (http://www.askamanager.com) for some very real advice. With some critical reflection I believe you can pinpoint several reasons why you have had minimal success and - with a lot of practice - you could change your fortunes around

Good luck!

Thank you. The job market does look better at the moment.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 28, 2021, 09:27:54 AM

Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.

Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.

I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.

well luckily the past is easy to run numbers against so that 400k would be worth 3.6MM 36 years later and they could have taken out an inflation adjusted 4%

great job cherry picking a great year to FIRE.  You also picked a great translation for 400k into 1MM b/c the inflation adjusted value of 400k from 1985 is worth right at 1MM today.  So if history repeats everyone here retiring on 1MM could expect 9x their portfolio value in 36 years while spending 40k a year.

got anymore crazy stories to prove how great FIRE is?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on December 28, 2021, 09:48:10 AM

Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.

Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.

I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.

Billy and Akaisha Kaderli are actual real-life people who retired from their jobs in 1991 at the age of 38. They have been doing it for four decades, and still going strong.

https://www.retireearlylifestyle.com/profile.htm

Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on December 28, 2021, 09:55:08 AM
Using satirical comedy to prove points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3VdFriAvrs

In this movie, you learn that betting $400,000 in one big bet at a casino can turn out poorly for you.

You have to diversify your bets across various tables at many casinos!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 28, 2021, 10:02:34 AM
Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.

The plot is that a 30-something couple has high paying corporate jobs they hate.  They run the numbers and conclude they can sell everything, RE and RV across the country full time.  The wife promptly losing their nest egg gambling.  They are forced to take menial jobs and living in near-poverty.  They conclude they want their soul-sucking corporate jobs back.

Moral of the story:  Don't lose your life savings gambling. 

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on December 28, 2021, 10:19:39 AM
Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.

The plot is that a 30-something couple has high paying corporate jobs they hate.  They run the numbers and conclude they can sell everything, RE and RV across the country full time.  The wife promptly losing their nest egg gambling.  They are forced to take menial jobs and living in near-poverty.  They conclude they want their soul-sucking corporate jobs back.

Moral of the story:  Don't lose your life savings gambling.

Wow. That's even a worse argument for his side than I thought. LMAO
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on December 28, 2021, 11:22:37 AM
More FIRE movie trivia:

In American Beauty, there is a scene where the wife (Annette Bening) is in the car -- IIRC correctly she is screaming at her partner related to something about their deteriorating relationship. On the passenger seat is a copy of Your Money or Your Life.

Clearly FIRE aspirations are the cause of all mid-life crises....
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on December 28, 2021, 01:20:55 PM
Let’s look at another classic FIRE tale:
The Princess Bride

Princess Buttercup: Commoner who gains status through marriage. Locked in tower, then flees

Prince Humperdinkt: Heir apparent; loses his self respect and everything else.

Vizzini: Government Contractor. Dies (poisoned) while conducting his job

Montoya: Skilled tradesman, presumably in a guild (sword-maker). Lives a rather miserable existence until following in Westley’s footsteps.

Fezzik: Sporadically employed (e.g. brute squad, governmental sub-contractor under Vizzini) & horse thief. Ultimately finds happiness caring for stolen horses.


[Dr.] Miracle Max: King’s physician until fired (not FIREd) by Humperdinkt; forced to go back to work in his sunset years. Lives in near-poverty in a hut despite his advanced education and training.

Count Rugen: High Government Employee, most-trusted advisor to the prince, inventor; killed.

The Albino: Low-level manual labor in government lab.  Assaulted, definitely concussed,  but fate unknown.

Westley: A self-made, self-employed (farm boy, dread-pirate Roberts #6) man who FIREs and lives happily ever after

The Military (aka “Royal Guard”);  Those that flee live. Everyone who does their job gets stabbed.  Monty Python had the best advice here (“run away!”).

Moral of the story: Financial security cannot be guaranteed by ‘safe’ governmental jobs, advanced training or even a massive amount of inherited wealth. Most people seems to die in the course of their employment. However, self-employed types can FIRE and live out their days in happiness and love so long as they are ok with a bit of moral ambiguity to get there.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on December 28, 2021, 03:53:31 PM
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks


Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today!  my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.

I don’t have a good answer for that. FIRE is in competition with other goals.

Whooosh

@boarder42 , I don't think you could have imagined the utterly clueless amazing reply you were going to get when you posted that, but I have to give you serious props nonetheless.  I mean...wow.  I was going to post more comments to address the OP's "points", but you demonstrated with amazing clarity how futile that would have been.  Thank you.  The OP's response to your post is stunning. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: herbgeek on December 28, 2021, 04:50:35 PM
Quote
Some of us have been blessed with the intelligence, education, opportunity, and resources to achieve a higher function in this life.

So why haven't you achieved this higher function in life if you have, as you say, intelligence, education, opportunity and resources?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: poxpower on December 28, 2021, 10:08:25 PM
Woah I just stumbled on this and it's like a neural network training itself for 2 years to write a bunch of disjointed rants about financial insecurity and lack of motivation.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 29, 2021, 06:51:45 AM
Woah I just stumbled on this and it's like a neural network training itself for 2 years to write a bunch of disjointed rants about financial insecurity and lack of motivation.

That's about what I was typing the other day. And didn't post it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on December 29, 2021, 06:52:59 AM
Interviewer: can you tell me about a difficult conflict in your past job and how you resolved it.

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer: sounds like you were self employed what did you learn while self employed that would set you up for success here?

Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: that sounds difficult. What did you enjoy most about your previous job before becoming self employed.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life


Interviewer:. That's interesting can you elaborate on your statement. It seems youve had a rough go of it.


Skyhigh: my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

Interviewer: ok you can expect to hear from us in a few weeks


Skyhigh: but did you hear what I said? I can't start today!  my whole life is difficult I was fired 30 years ago and started a rental business and have been mowing lawns and it's been unfullfilling so I want back into corp life

I agree that prospective employers do not like those who are self-employed. They can tell from a resume that you have not had to do anything truly awful for a very long time. They must be wondering how someone who has become accustomed to the easy life, would be able to fit back into the box of full time employment.

I don’t have a good answer for that. FIRE is in competition with other goals.

Whooosh

@boarder42 , I don't think you could have imagined the utterly clueless amazing reply you were going to get when you posted that, but I have to give you serious props nonetheless.  I mean...wow.  I was going to post more comments to address the OP's "points", but you demonstrated with amazing clarity how futile that would have been.  Thank you.  The OP's response to your post is stunning.
It's been two days and I can still hear the giant sucking sound.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on December 29, 2021, 11:42:22 AM

Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.

Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.

I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.

Billy and Akaisha Kaderli are actual real-life people who retired from their jobs in 1991 at the age of 38. They have been doing it for four decades, and still going strong.

https://www.retireearlylifestyle.com/profile.htm

Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.
And don't forget Paul and Vicky Terhorst authors of "Cashing in on the American Dream: How to Retire at 35".  This link is 10 years old but there are a million others out there that are newer. I just like to read Bogelheads comments ;-).

 https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60974

High powered executive and spouse quit their jobs at 35 to become full time travelers.  Now in their mid 60s and living a nice life and increased their stash. MMM talked about them in one of his blog posts when they hit their 30 year FIRE mark a few years ago.

The Kaderlis and Terhorsts are the OGs of the RE movement.  Also John Greeney who was an engineer at Exxon and retired at 38.  They were really the ones who proved the concept for those of us who came later. 

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on December 29, 2021, 11:58:21 AM

Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.

Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.

I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.

Billy and Akaisha Kaderli are actual real-life people who retired from their jobs in 1991 at the age of 38. They have been doing it for four decades, and still going strong.

https://www.retireearlylifestyle.com/profile.htm

Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.
And don't forget Paul and Vicky Terhorst authors of "Cashing in on the American Dream: How to Retire at 35".  This link is 10 years old but there are a million others out there that are newer. I just like to read Bogelheads comments ;-).

 https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=60974

High powered executive and spouse quit their jobs at 35 to become full time travelers.  Now in their mid 60s and living a nice life and increased their stash. MMM talked about them in one of his blog posts when they hit their 30 year FIRE mark a few years ago.

The Kaderlis and Terhorsts are the OGs of the RE movement.  Also John Greeney who was an engineer at Exxon and retired at 38.  They were really the ones who proved the concept for those of us who came later.

Now this thread is getting good. Who else y'all know about.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on December 29, 2021, 12:57:29 PM
Vicki Robin, of course.  She's still the grand dame of old-school FIRE in my book - kind of like Pete's fairy godmother:

https://vickirobin.com/about/

David Heitmiller and Jacqueline Blix wrote the follow up to YMOYL (Getting a Life) -- and donated all the profits from the book via the New Road Map Foundation.  They were profiled in this 2008 article -- their annual spend had gone from 30k to 45k at the time, but that was pre-ACA.

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna24879628

Oh, sadly David passed away in  2020....

https://funerals.coop/obituaries/2020-obituaries/july-2020/david-allen-heitmiller.html

This passage from his obituary is something many of us would be proud to have written of us:

He became involved in Voluntary Simplicity in 1991, left corporate life and the telephone company at age 48 to dedicate himself to truly living, and in 1997 co-authored a book on simple living and financial independence with his wife Jacque Blix. He was known by many as someone who could help fix something, install something, or build something. He formed and maintained hundreds of friendships, and connected or reconnected with extended family from all over the country and world. Over the years he took up the harmonica, saxophone, yoga, meditation, and most of all poetry: he kept a weekly poetry blog (thebicyclingpoet.blogspot.com) and had a poem published in the San Diego Poetry Annual Anthology (2020.) All of David’s activities reflected his deep love for life, for his family, his friends, and the world at large. It was his hope to leave the world a better place.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: youngwildandfree on December 29, 2021, 02:11:52 PM

This passage from his obituary is something many of us would be proud to have written of us:

He became involved in Voluntary Simplicity in 1991, left corporate life and the telephone company at age 48 to dedicate himself to truly living, and in 1997 co-authored a book on simple living and financial independence with his wife Jacque Blix. He was known by many as someone who could help fix something, install something, or build something. He formed and maintained hundreds of friendships, and connected or reconnected with extended family from all over the country and world. Over the years he took up the harmonica, saxophone, yoga, meditation, and most of all poetry: he kept a weekly poetry blog (thebicyclingpoet.blogspot.com) and had a poem published in the San Diego Poetry Annual Anthology (2020.) All of David’s activities reflected his deep love for life, for his family, his friends, and the world at large. It was his hope to leave the world a better place.

That's inspiring! What a great life goal, "leave the world a better place".
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on December 29, 2021, 02:13:58 PM

That's inspiring! What a great life goal, "leave the world a better place".

That basically sums up both my and my spouse’s motto, which we independently arrived at before we even met.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: RainyDay on December 30, 2021, 12:22:20 PM
Let’s look at another classic FIRE tale:
The Princess Bride

Princess Buttercup: Commoner who gains status through marriage. Locked in tower, then flees

Prince Humperdinkt: Heir apparent; loses his self respect and everything else.

Vizzini: Government Contractor. Dies (poisoned) while conducting his job

Montoya: Skilled tradesman, presumably in a guild (sword-maker). Lives a rather miserable existence until following in Westley’s footsteps.

Fezzik: Sporadically employed (e.g. brute squad, governmental sub-contractor under Vizzini) & horse thief. Ultimately finds happiness caring for stolen horses.


[Dr.] Miracle Max: King’s physician until fired (not FIREd) by Humperdinkt; forced to go back to work in his sunset years. Lives in near-poverty in a hut despite his advanced education and training.

Count Rugen: High Government Employee, most-trusted advisor to the prince, inventor; killed.

The Albino: Low-level manual labor in government lab.  Assaulted, definitely concussed,  but fate unknown.

Westley: A self-made, self-employed (farm boy, dread-pirate Roberts #6) man who FIREs and lives happily ever after

The Military (aka “Royal Guard”);  Those that flee live. Everyone who does their job gets stabbed.  Monty Python had the best advice here (“run away!”).

Moral of the story: Financial security cannot be guaranteed by ‘safe’ governmental jobs, advanced training or even a massive amount of inherited wealth. Most people seems to die in the course of their employment. However, self-employed types can FIRE and live out their days in happiness and love so long as they are ok with a bit of moral ambiguity to get there.

This was awesome.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on January 01, 2022, 03:52:13 PM
Now this thread is getting good. Who else y'all know about.

This is a brief history of the modern FIRE movement based on my own leaky memory, things I heard over the fence, and some help from Google.   Corrections, comments, and additions welcome.  For entertainment purposes only.  No warranty is expressed or implied.

The OGs of FIRE are Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin who FIRE'd sometime in the 1980s, and published the classic "Your Money or Your Life"  in 1992.  Prior to that time, they were doing workshops promoting what we call FIRE today. 

The Terhorsts came out with their book  in 1988.   Despite being the first, the Terhorst's book never seemed to have the impact as YMOYL did.  I confess I've read neither, but many cite YMOYL has being hugely influential in their thinking.  However, Dominguez, Robin, and the Terhorsts all made a key planning error, in that they relied 100% on bonds for income.  At that time, the 4% rule had not been discovered and the data and tools to evalulate SWR did not even exist for the vast majority of people.   Peter Lynch, who probably had as many tools available to him as anyone, advocated a 7% WR. 

This changed in 1994 when Bill Bengen discovered the 4% rule and  published it an a industry journal.  Now, there was good answer to the central question of retirement planning, namely how much do I need? But back then the Internet didn't really exist as we know it today and I don't believe the 4% rule made a lot of penetration into the mainstream.

In about 1998 John Greaney (aka intercst), mentioned above, replicated Bengen's work, using Schiller's longer data set.  Greeney did a couple notable things, he founded the Retire Early Home Page (https://retireearlyhomepage.com/) which is still being updated in all of its HTML 1.0 glory (kids, if you want to know what the Internet used to look like, this is it) and he worked through a surprising number of topics related to early retirement, taxes, investment strategies, etc.  He also allowed people to download his Excel spreadsheet and data so you could see for yourself and make modifications.  And he set up a Retire Early Home Page discussion page at The Motley Fool.  Out of that board (I believe) our own @Nords and a poster named Dory36 (Bill Sholar) emerged, along with a few other notable posters.

Dory36 set up a early retirement discussion board: Early Retirement.org (https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/) and he also created FireCalc.  So for the first time there was an online SWR calculator where you can enter your own inputs and assumptions. About this time, Johnathan Clements at the Wall Street Journal and noted syndicated personal finance author Scott Burns picked up on the 4% rule and introduced the concept of FIRE to a mainstream audience.  I believe CFIREsim also came out of Early Retirement.org as well, but I'm not sure of that.

After that, as far as I know  there wasn't a lot of real movement in the FIRE community until MMM arrived.   MMM did several notable things.  For one, he did the nuts and bolts kind of calculations like intercst and Dory36, but he also introduced a lot of philosophy and lifestyle discussion like YMOYL and the Terhorsts.  It really caught on and we all know the rest.

Joe Dominguez died in 1996.  I heard but cannot confirm that his bond ladder was starting to fail and he was living a much diminished lifestyle.   Vicki Robin lives on an island in Washington State and makes occasional media appearances. Robin switched to index funds years ago.  The Terhorsts also switched to index funds and apparently are still having a blast.  John Greaney is still around, and says  "If I knew then what I know now, I would have retired at 30."  Nords appears to be doing well.   Bill Sholar decided running a message board was a lot like work and sailed off into the sunset.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: LoanShark on January 01, 2022, 05:15:45 PM
Now this thread is getting good. Who else y'all know about.

This is a brief history of the modern FIRE movement based on my own leaky memory, things I heard over the fence, and some help from Google.   Corrections, comments, and additions welcome.  For entertainment purposes only.  No warranty is expressed or implied.

The OGs of FIRE are Joe Dominguez and Vicki Robin who FIRE'd sometime in the 1980s, and published the classic "Your Money or Your Life"  in 1992.  Prior to that time, they were doing workshops promoting what we call FIRE today. 

The Terhorsts came out with their book  in 1988.   Despite being the first, the Terhorst's book never seemed to have the impact as YMOYL did.  I confess I've read neither, but many cite YMOYL has being hugely influential in their thinking.  However, Dominguez, Robin, and the Terhorsts all made a key planning error, in that they relied 100% on bonds for income.  At that time, the 4% rule had not been discovered and the data and tools to evalulate SWR did not even exist for the vast majority of people.   Peter Lynch, who probably had as many tools available to him as anyone, advocated a 7% WR. 

This changed in 1994 when Bill Bengen discovered the 4% rule and  published it an a industry journal.  Now, there was good answer to the central question of retirement planning, namely how much do I need? But back then the Internet didn't really exist as we know it today and I don't believe the 4% rule made a lot of penetration into the mainstream.

In about 1998 John Greaney (aka intercst), mentioned above, replicated Bengen's work, using Schiller's longer data set.  Greeney did a couple notable things, he founded the Retire Early Home Page (https://retireearlyhomepage.com/) which is still being updated in all of its HTML 1.0 glory (kids, if you want to know what the Internet used to look like, this is it) and he worked through a surprising number of topics related to early retirement, taxes, investment strategies, etc.  He also allowed people to download his Excel spreadsheet and data so you could see for yourself and make modifications.  And he set up a Retire Early Home Page discussion page at The Motley Fool.  Out of that board (I believe) our own @Nords and a poster named Dory36 (Bill Sholar) emerged, along with a few other notable posters.

Dory36 set up a early retirement discussion board: Early Retirement.org (https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/) and he also created FireCalc.  So for the first time there was an online SWR calculator where you can enter your own inputs and assumptions. About this time, Johnathan Clements at the Wall Street Journal and noted syndicated personal finance author Scott Burns picked up on the 4% rule and introduced the concept of FIRE to a mainstream audience.  I believe CFIREsim also came out of Early Retirement.org as well, but I'm not sure of that.

After that, as far as I know  there wasn't a lot of real movement in the FIRE community until MMM arrived.   MMM did several notable things.  For one, he did the nuts and bolts kind of calculations like intercst and Dory36, but he also introduced a lot of philosophy and lifestyle discussion like YMOYL and the Terhorsts.  It really caught on and we all know the rest.

Joe Dominguez died in 1996.  I heard but cannot confirm that his bond ladder was starting to fail and he was living a much diminished lifestyle.   Vicki Robin lives on an island in Washington State and makes occasional media appearances. Robin switched to index funds years ago.  The Terhorsts also switched to index funds and apparently are still having a blast.  John Greaney is still around, and says  "If I knew then what I know now, I would have retired at 30."  Nords appears to be doing well.   Bill Sholar decided running a message board was a lot like work and sailed off into the sunset.
Great post. Thanks.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: MissNancyPryor on January 01, 2022, 05:27:03 PM
I saw the YMOYL team on Oprah back when they were just getting known- they were on the show with Amy Dacyczyn of the Tightwad Gazette.  Most chalked them up as hippy-dippy types and dismissed them as weirdos.   

People doing this a while will the remember useless retirement calculators that did not allow you to set your post-work annual spend amount at anything less than 80% of your current salary.  That could be said another way -- the concept of saving more than 20% of your pay was not fathomable.  If I live on 60% of my current pay, why do I need 80% when I am not working?  Vanguard's was this way up until pretty recently.     

I also remember being frustrated that none of the calculators allowed you to look at the effect of eating your nest egg in the last years of life.  The introduction of Monte Carlo simulations and graphic displays of same made a huge difference. 

We've come a long way, baby.   
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Fru-Gal on January 01, 2022, 06:25:46 PM
This thread is gold!!!! Loving the history lessons and the inspiring couples.

When I was in my teens or 20s, I remember reading about some kid who had saved a million dollars from modest earnings. It intrigued me, but the premise of the article was "look at this weird penny pincher". While I was naturally moderately frugal and had some early 401k savings that compounded a very long time, I also had a lot of toxic money beliefs and consumerist denialism and it wasn't until my mid 40s that I started figuring out that saving wasn't a weird inaccessible thing, and that I could do it -- aggressively. So it took 30 years but I am now that kid.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on January 01, 2022, 06:29:24 PM
I saw the YMOYL team on Oprah back when they were just getting known- they were on the show with Amy Dacyczyn of the Tightwad Gazette.  Most chalked them up as hippy-dippy types and dismissed them as weirdos.   

People doing this a while will the remember useless retirement calculators that did not allow you to set your post-work annual spend amount at anything less than 80% of your current salary.  That could be said another way -- the concept of saving more than 20% of your pay was not fathomable.  If I live on 60% of my current pay, why do I need 80% when I am not working?  Vanguard's was this way up until pretty recently.     

I also remember being frustrated that none of the calculators allowed you to look at the effect of eating your nest egg in the last years of life.  The introduction of Monte Carlo simulations and graphic displays of same made a huge difference. 

We've come a long way, baby.   

Long before I knew much about anything financial--when I was signing on for a front-loaded, high expense-ratio investment fund recommended to me by me commission-based advisor--I remember being highly frustrated that all the retirement calculators seemed to be based on current salary, ignoring entirely actual spending.  IOW, they based how much I'd need on how much I made. A person making a million a year and spending every penny of it needed as much to retire as a person making a million dollars and living on $10,000.  Intuitively, I knew that was completely illogical.  But there were no alternatives [that I could find]. Mostly I decided to kick the can down the road as far as establishing a target goal.  I knew I'd need some amount of money, so at least that was enough to get me started investing, and I figured I could calculate the exact amounts needed when I was closer to retirement.

But the 4% rule was such a revelation.  Suddenly, I wasn't just saving and hoping it was enough and feeling the anxiety of the vagueness of that undefined end goal.  I had an approximate target, which meant I was no longer just kinda hoping for the best.  I understand that "4%" isn't a hard and fast thing (for me, at least)  It's a large ring on the target, not a tiny bullseye, but even a large ring gives you somewhere to aim, and that was more than enough to make retirement far less anxiety-ridden for me.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Nords on January 01, 2022, 06:40:31 PM
This is a brief history of the modern FIRE movement based on my own leaky memory, things I heard over the fence, and some help from Google.   Corrections, comments, and additions welcome.  For entertainment purposes only.  No warranty is expressed or implied.
I have a few updates!

However, Dominguez, Robin, and the Terhorsts all made a key planning error, in that they relied 100% on bonds for income. 
They weren’t wrong, just battle-scarred veterans of our environment of 1970s stagflation and 1980s double-digit inflation.  Treasuries and CDs were the only things which didn’t suck, although they weren’t working very well either.

The period of 1966-82 is one of the potential failure modes of the 4% SWR, and Business Week published their notorious “Death Of Equities” magazine cover in 1979-- three years ahead of the bottom.  Dominguez (a Wall Street trader) reached FI in 1969 and he could see what was coming.  He and Robin actually insisted on Treasuries (for their government backing) and Paul Terhorst started with CDs. 

Back in 1979, “everybody knew” that the best investments were gold bullion (especially Krugerrands) and raw diamonds. 

In 1982 I had a checking account from a bank paying 10% interest.

Peter Lynch, who probably had as many tools available to him as anyone, advocated a 7% WR. 
That was the first edition of “One Up On Wall Street.”  Later editions are still for sale on Amazon. 

Hey, any stockpickers as talented and intense as Peter Lynch could have a sustainable withdrawal rate of 7%-- but that sounds like a full-time job.  CFP Michael Kitces and others have observed that a 7% WR is quite possible if you reach FI when the stock market is at all-time lows.  Of course it takes incredible guts (or blissful ignorance) to quit working for a paycheck in early 2009.

This changed in 1994 when Bill Bengen discovered the 4% rule and  published it an a industry journal.  Now, there was good answer to the central question of retirement planning, namely how much do I need? But back then the Internet didn't really exist as we know it today and I don't believe the 4% rule made a lot of penetration into the mainstream.
It was published in a financial journal whose subscription was only bought by big firms and libraries.  Nobody else read it unless you were waiting for your turn with the library’s copy of ValueLine. 

The Trinity Study made a much bigger impact in 1998, partly because more people had bandwidth.  I thought I was pretty hot stuff with my 4800 bps modem but I was saving to upgrade to a 14.4 kbps model.

He also allowed people to download his Excel spreadsheet and data so you could see for yourself and make modifications.  And he set up a Retire Early Home Page discussion page at The Motley Fool.
That spreadsheet was what Bill Sholar used to code FIRECalc 1.0.  I think he wrote most of it in PHP.  The biggest issue was the annual updates from Schiller’s database. 

Out of that board (I believe) our own @Nords and a poster named Dory36 (Bill Sholar) emerged, along with a few other notable posters.

Dory36 set up a early retirement discussion board: Early Retirement.org (https://www.early-retirement.org/forums/) and he also created FireCalc.  So for the first time there was an online SWR calculator where you can enter your own inputs and assumptions. About this time, Johnathan Clements at the Wall Street Journal and noted syndicated personal finance author Scott Burns picked up on the 4% rule and introduced the concept of FIRE to a mainstream audience. 
Bill was retiring from his corporate job and his fellow employees had decorated his office door with the usual cards and gag gifts.  One of them had printed out the homepage of Greaney’s site.  Bill had bought a boat, a... Dory36... on which he and his spouse spent several years cruising the Intracoastal Waterway.  He started E-R.org in 2002 and used to run it from his cell phone hotspot, usually logging on around 5 PM after he and his spouse had moored for the evening.  He usually turned off his phone the next morning, so if we had a problem with trolls or spammers it had to wait for evening on the east coast.

RetireEarlyHomePage (and later Early-Retirement.org) grew out of The Motley Fool bulletin boards because those MF people started charging for forum access.  Everyone immediately left for Greaney’s forum and eventually E-R.org.

I never spent much time on TMF but I was one of the early members of Early-Retirement.org.  After a couple years it grew so big that we needed moderators, and I was one of the original mod volunteers.

I believe CFIREsim also came out of Early Retirement.org as well, but I'm not sure of that.
Bo_Knows, or @lauren_knows, created cFIREsim right here on this very forum:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/oh-hai-i-once-created-a-site-called-cfiresim-saying-hello-again/msg2874684/#msg2874684

Unlike Bill, she wrote sustainable and well-documented code.

After that, as far as I know  there wasn't a lot of real movement in the FIRE community until MMM arrived.   MMM did several notable things.  For one, he did the nuts and bolts kind of calculations like intercst and Dory36, but he also introduced a lot of philosophy and lifestyle discussion like YMOYL and the Terhorsts.  It really caught on and we all know the rest.
Jacob Lund Fisker was famous in his corner of the Internet for EarlyRetirementExtreme, and (as Pete has said) he handed off to Pete to further promote their sustainable environmentalism.  Jacob is still online somewhere (and on Facebook) but last I heard he was working as a quant analyst.

Joe Dominguez died in 1996.  I heard but cannot confirm that his bond ladder was starting to fail and he was living a much diminished lifestyle.   Vicki Robin lives on an island in Washington State and makes occasional media appearances. Robin switched to index funds years ago. 
To Joe’s credit, his Treasuries made it for the rest of his life.  He died of cancer in a group home while still living off that ladder’s greatly-diminished income.

Vicki’s on Whidbey Island, as active an environmentalist as ever.  When Grant Sabatier and a few other people tracked her down in the 2010s with questions about YMOYL, she was surprised to learn that it had such a cult following on the Internet.  A cameo of her 1980s Oprah appearance is on the documentary "Playing With FIRE."

Maybe someone here has attended a Camp Mustache with her-- I think she was there in 2018 or 2019.

The Terhorsts also switched to index funds and apparently are still having a blast.  John Greaney is still around, and says  "If I knew then what I know now, I would have retired at 30." 
Yes.

Somewhere in there we should also mention Billy & Akaisha Kaderli of RetireEarlyLifestyle, who started their ER as expats in 1991 and are still going strong.  These days they spend most of their time in Mexico and Latin America.  They’re also very familiar with Thailand and the rest of southeast Asia and will probably head back there for a few laps after the pandemic turns endemic.

The Terhorsts were online for years with a Geocities(!) page, but today it only survives on the Internet Archive.  His Body Work post is a classic.
https://web.archive.org/web/20091026192612/http://sites.google.com/site/paulvicgroup/Home/paul-page/body-work

Nords appears to be doing well.
I am, thank you!  My spouse started her Navy Reserve pension this month.  Our asset allocation of >90% equities has been very volatile but has grown much faster than inflation.  We’ve gone from “more than enough” to “ridiculously way more than we’re ever going to need and are now giving it away faster.”

I wrote this in 2017 and updated it a couple months ago:
https://the-military-guide.com/hey-nords-hows-net-worth/
This review of the 4% SWR is for everyone, not just military families.

Bill Sholar decided running a message board was a lot like work and sailed off into the sunset.
Shortly after his granddaughter was born, he and his spouse beached themselves.  The last I heard he was running a web design firm in Dallas.

Bill sold E-R.org and FIRECalc to a forum aggregator who... to put it politely... did not exactly hit it off with the E-R.org crowd.  I wrote The Military Guide from that forum but I moved on from moderating.  These days I only check there weekly for keywords, along with here and Bogleheads.  My daughter and I wrote Raising Your Money-Savvy Family from this forum and from IRL conversations at CampFI.

Today I spend much more of my online time in Facebook groups and on ESIMoney’s Millionaire Money Mentor forum.  I never in my life thought I’d pay for membership in a forum, but it’s one of the few places on the Internet that’s free of trolls, haters, scammers, and spammers.

Somewhere in this unofficial history we should mention how Morningstar sponsored a bunch of forums in the 1990s and 2000s.  (Maybe they’re still going.)  One of them was Vanguard Diehards, and a notorious troll became a significant problem in that group.  Morningstar’s moderators did such a bad job that Taylor, Mel, Alex, and a few others broke off to start Bogleheads. 

I’m sensing a theme here on corporate forums gone bad and leading to crowdsourced initiatives.  I think the moderators here are doing a good job but it’s never easy.

There’s a couple other unofficial (but very detailed) histories floating around the Web:
https://www.getrichslowly.org/history-of-financial-independence/
https://earlyretirementdude.com/the-history-of-fier/
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 01, 2022, 07:14:50 PM
A couple of other early FIRE-oriented forums from the 90s-MMM era:

The Armchair Millionaire site became quite active at one point -- I think maybe when The Motley Fool started charging for access?  Focused on buy and hold investing, though not exclusively index fund oriented.  I was a moderator there from around 1997 until it pretty much crashed and burned along with the dot.com bubble.

The Simple Living Network was hosted by a guy in Trout Lake, Washington who ran a B-to-C operation selling Your Money and YOur Life and other similar books and resources out of his garage.  The forums on that site were very much focused on the YMOYL message and approach to FIRE, and interest in YMOYL was what drew and kept a lot of people there.  The forums migrated to a crowd-funded site when the SLN shut down  -- IIRC that was in 2006 or 2007?  I was a moderator there from that point to around when I started posting here, in  2012 I guess?  I found MMM through the "torch passing" post on Get Rich Slowly when Jacob stepped back from ERE.  Quite a few of us who were active on SLN moved over here as this forum gained momentum.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 01, 2022, 09:04:18 PM
I feel like we need a separate sticky thread for the history of the FIRE movement. This stuff is gold and important background to understanding what truths are rehashed around these parts all the time. I get a lot out of the history of the stock market performance and where the 4% rule comes from and how it was originally perceived (ridiculously low!). This gives good context in current discussions where people like to rush to the lowest common denominator (3% is too risky because Reasons so I’m shooting for 2%!). Similarly understanding the shoulders of giants, so to speak, upon which MMM stands is interesting.

@arebelspy
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: herbgeek on January 02, 2022, 05:25:39 AM
Quote
The Simple Living Network was hosted by a guy in Trout Lake, Washington who ran a B-to-C operation selling Your Money and YOur Life and other similar books and resources out of his garage.

Going even further back, before there was the www, there was a mailing list called MaxLife that I was a part of.  Most of the folks there went on to the SLN and MaxLife died a natural death.  We had a study group for YMOYL on Maxlife and this was eye opening and life changing for me and the first time I really understood that I didn't have to work until 65 if I was thoughtful about spending and saving.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on January 02, 2022, 01:17:08 PM
Thank you so much for the updates!!  I was really hoping you'd comment. 

Somewhere in this unofficial history we should mention how Morningstar sponsored a bunch of forums in the 1990s and 2000s.  (Maybe they’re still going.)  One of them was Vanguard Diehards, and a notorious troll became a significant problem in that group.  Morningstar’s moderators did such a bad job that Taylor, Mel, Alex, and a few others broke off to start Bogleheads. 

Yes!  That was Rob "Hocus" Bennett who burned Morningstar to the ground.  Hocus got it stuck in his skull the 4% rule is wrong, and went on a jihad.    Bogleheads is a hugely important and influential forum in the FI movement, and its formation for sure needs to be mentioned as a milestone in our community. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 02, 2022, 02:24:50 PM
Thank you so much for the updates!!  I was really hoping you'd comment. 

Somewhere in this unofficial history we should mention how Morningstar sponsored a bunch of forums in the 1990s and 2000s.  (Maybe they’re still going.)  One of them was Vanguard Diehards, and a notorious troll became a significant problem in that group.  Morningstar’s moderators did such a bad job that Taylor, Mel, Alex, and a few others broke off to start Bogleheads. 

Yes!  That was Rob "Hocus" Bennett who burned Morningstar to the ground.  Hocus got it stuck in his skull the 4% rule is wrong, and went on a jihad.    Bogleheads is a hugely important and influential forum in the FI movement, and its formation for sure needs to be mentioned as a milestone in our community.

Hmm…. A financial jihad.  I think I’ve seen a few of those types crop up now and again.  Thankfully our Mods have done a tremendous job (along with our forum’s ability to remain open to discussion while self-regulating along the forum rules).
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 02, 2022, 05:13:57 PM
@arebelspy can we extract telecasters response to mine down into a sticky on the post fire thread
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 04, 2022, 09:52:30 AM
We're into the new year and for me, that means preparing for job fairs. My goal is to attend at least three a year. COVID suspended most of the meaningful job fairs for nearly two years. At present, it seems that they are ready to resume.
Due to my forced departure from my profession, the industry wants me to start over at zero and climb up the ladder from the bottom. They want me to prove anew my willingness and cower to the industry through the humiliation of enduring the lower rungs again. Getting up at 3 am to undergo a forced drive into an unholy workplace is not very appealing. We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic. FIRE effectively removes much of the motivation to do this part since I don't have to anymore.

In my defense, I have been working several fringe jobs in my industry and have restored my professional credentials. However, at my current age, I do not make for a very appealing candidate. The reason I bring all of this up is that I want to make the point that abandoning one's profession, either willingly or by force, often comes with a difficult path back. In my case, if employers believe that one's departure was voluntary then it serves as proof that they may vacate their position again. My strategy is to keep throwing for the end-zone and hope that I get lucky.

The opportunity cost of FIRE can mean the destruction of one's professional momentum. Certain job skills and credentials are perishable. Once lost it may mean that the escape route back to gainful employment in your career field is gone. All those years in higher education and experience building effectively gone. If employers detect that your involvement in your career is voluntary and not that of servitude then your options narrow even more.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 04, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
@Skyhigh can you rename this thread the history of fire starting page 9?

Thanks
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on January 04, 2022, 12:07:51 PM

We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic.  Must we though? 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 04, 2022, 01:20:31 PM
[Emphasis Added]

Due to my forced departure from my profession, the industry wants me to start over at zero and climb up the ladder from the bottom. They want me to prove anew my willingness and cower to the industry through the humiliation of enduring the lower rungs again. Getting up at 3 am to undergo a forced drive into an unholy workplace is not very appealing. We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic. FIRE effectively removes much of the motivation to do this part since I don't have to anymore.

In my defense, I have been working several fringe jobs in my industry and have restored my professional credentials. However, at my current age, I do not make for a very appealing candidate.

As this is your attitude and mindset, I do not find it very surprising that you have found it difficult to get the job that you want, or to find fulfillment in your life.  We are currently in a job market where qualified employees are the more scarce they have been in decades: BLS estimates there are 0.7 job seekers for every job opening.

To beat a dead horse, your "destruction of professional momentum" is your own doing, not FIREs. If a particular career is something you wish to do, you find a way. Those that are motivated learn that being financially independent is an asset towards progressing their life-goals. You appear to have never been truly motivated in the first place.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 04, 2022, 01:28:11 PM
[Emphasis Added]

Due to my forced departure from my profession, the industry wants me to start over at zero and climb up the ladder from the bottom. They want me to prove anew my willingness and cower to the industry through the humiliation of enduring the lower rungs again. Getting up at 3 am to undergo a forced drive into an unholy workplace is not very appealing. We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic. FIRE effectively removes much of the motivation to do this part since I don't have to anymore.

In my defense, I have been working several fringe jobs in my industry and have restored my professional credentials. However, at my current age, I do not make for a very appealing candidate.

As this is your attitude and mindset, I do not find it very surprising that you have found it difficult to get the job that you want, or to find fulfillment in your life.  We are currently in a job market where qualified employees are the more scarce they have been in decades: BLS estimates there are 0.7 job seekers for every job opening.

To beat a dead horse, you "destruction of professional momentum" is your own doing, not FIREs. If a particular career is something you wish to do, you find a way. Those that are motivated learn that being financially independent is an asset towards progressing their life-goals. You appear to have never been truly motivated in the first place.
To build on to nereo's train of thought, I would not want to work with you, nor would I want to be a passenger on any plane you were piloting. Sorry dude, I've been following your threads for a long time and your attitude leaves a lot to be desired, and that's the most Rule #1-friendly way I can phrase it. At some point, recognizing that YOU are the problem and doing something about it, possibly through therapy, or coaching, which have been suggested many times, will lead you into the end zone to the Holy Grail you seek.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 04, 2022, 05:23:33 PM
OP probably won't listen to it, but this recent episode of Afford Anything has some great commentary on  some of the dangers of not only FIRE (when pursued for the wrong reasons or in the wrong way), but any singular goal that is not based an a well-rounded understanding of what a particular individual wants and needs to do with their limited time and energy in order to have a fulfilling life.  It is an interview with Doc G, who runs the Earn and Invest podcast and had a career as a hospice doctor:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9wYXVsYWFuZGpheW1vbmV5LmxpYnN5bi5jb20vcnNz/episode/YWY1MjI5NjAtMGIzNS00NGQ4LWE0MjItZjk5NDNmYmRjYjRj?hl=en&ved=2ahUKEwiYs8GGq5n1AhUQIzQIHTFlAwsQjrkEegQIAxAI&ep=6
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DaTrill on January 04, 2022, 07:47:49 PM
FIRE has roots much older than 1988. 

Walden by Henry David Thoreau 1854. 

Free copy on Project Gutenberg. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: dougules on January 05, 2022, 01:46:43 AM
@Skyhigh, did you ever talk to a doctor or a therapist like I mentioned 2 years ago?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 05, 2022, 09:08:12 AM
Financial Independence

It is my position that if one intends to retire at a young age exclusively on savings then they are very financially dependent and shouldn't consider themselves as being otherwise. Those who intend to retire at 35 on perhaps $1,000,000 are proposing that this sum be sufficient to carry them through the next potential 70 years of life. As such they are very dependent upon certain things.

Inflation: to retire on savings alone you have to assume certain things regarding the future of inflation.

Taxes: As administrations change the nature of the tax code often follows. To expect conditions to remain the same for seven decades is incredibly unlikely.

Stock market: Often people who retire very young are depending upon the stock market performing in a predictable manner. As most of us have learned it regularly surprises us in a spectacular manner.

Social Security: People usually incorporate the continued health and existence of Social Security to supplement their early retirement plan. Personally, I think is unwise for a 35-year-old to expect it to remain in the same form by the time they reach 67.

Consumption rate: Plenty of financial squirrels brood over spreadsheets that include many assumptions besides inflation and stock market returns. They assume that their life will remain static and their consumption rate will remain constant. If your plan is that your life is to be unchanged over the next 70 years then that is unfortunate in my opinion.

Relationship status: Housing and other financial systems assume that we all share a household with others for maximum efficiency. A divorce can have a massive detriment upon one’s best laid financial plans. Often we can only control half of the equasion.

Health Challenge: We all hope to retain vigorous health well into our later years. However, an unexpected health challenge can rapidly deplete savings and dramatically change the trajectory of one's consumption plan. Also, an individual might live well beyond their maximum target date. At 35 years old it's hard to project your situation 60 or more years into the future. Will Medicade/Medicare remain solvent three decades in the future?

The point is that it is incredibly unwise to expect to happily live on passive income for five to seven decades unless you have considerable wealth that holds the prospect of outstripping anything that life can throw at you. Few people can truly say that they are financially independent with confidence. A better plan is to retain some form of active income such as your primary career or a business venture until you reach the more respected retirement age of the later 60s.

Imagine reaching your mid-50s. You've enjoyed a few decades of early retirement. Now after going over your latest spreadsheet are horrified to learn that the lines on the graph are falling short. Too late to do a lot about it. Your career earnings potential is long behind you. It happens to people all the time.

In the early 1990s, my parents purchased a house for $115,000 in a suburb. Zillow just sent me an email last week informing me that its current value hit $1,200,000. If you would have told us that our family home would go up 10 times over the next 30 years I doubt anyone would have believed it. It is folly to think that any one of us has an accurate vision so far into the future. Even the most privileged are always looking over your shoulder at what might be sneaking up behind. You are never truly safe when living on savings and hope.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 05, 2022, 09:11:43 AM

We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic.  Must we though?

As an employee, we do often have to endure less palatable portions of our careers and daily life in order to reach the higher ranks of our profession.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 05, 2022, 09:14:08 AM

We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic.  Must we though?

As an employee, we do often have to endure less palatable portions of our careers and daily life in order to reach the higher ranks of our profession.

i just put in my 2 weeks as a middle level PM at an engineering firm and someone is offering me a CFO position.... so your experience doesn't align with my reality.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 05, 2022, 09:50:20 AM
Financial Independence

It is my position that if one intends to retire at a young age exclusively on savings then they are very financially dependent and shouldn't consider themselves as being otherwise. Those who intend to retire at 35 on perhaps $1,000,000 are proposing that this sum be sufficient to carry them through the next potential 70 years of life. As such they are very dependent upon certain things.


Your definition is very much the polar opposite of what the common usage of the term “Financially Independent” means

As for all of your points, they have been discussed, analyzed and debated ad nauseam.  If you cannot bother to read or acknowledge all of this discussion there is little point in engaging with you. Much of what you claim is contrarian to most people’s experiences or simply flat out wrong. Your ultimate assertion that you have lost motivation towards your ideal job but that money is not your motivating factor is completely non-sensical and shows an utter lack of introspection.

The list of Long-time FIREd individuals and a general update on their whereabouts has made this thread worth it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 05, 2022, 10:16:41 AM
This thread reminds me of a Charlie Brown cartoon.  The OP is that voice of the teacher blabbering on in the background nonsensically while the main focus is the rest of us having an actually interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: youngwildandfree on January 05, 2022, 10:44:27 AM

We must go through the bits of truly awful to reach the fantastic.  Must we though?

As an employee, we do often have to endure less palatable portions of our careers and daily life in order to reach the higher ranks of our profession.

i just put in my 2 weeks as a middle level PM at an engineering firm and someone is offering me a CFO position.... so your experience doesn't align with my reality.

That's really coo @boarder42! Congrats. Methods for keeping up with the professional and scientific (in my case) world after FIRE is something I think on a bit. I have a while before I get there, but publishing, networking, and generally interacting with others in the space seems to be the key rather than holding specific titles.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on January 05, 2022, 12:54:01 PM
This guy agrees with SkyHigh.  Early retirement bites.  (https://livingafi.com/2016/04/01/early-retirement-bites/#more-8793/)
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DadJokes on January 05, 2022, 12:58:24 PM
This guy agrees with SkyHigh.  Early retirement bites.  (https://livingafi.com/2016/04/01/early-retirement-bites/#more-8793/)

I was expecting Financial Samurai and had to check the link address to make sure I wasn't giving him clicks - that was much better!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 05, 2022, 12:59:42 PM
This guy agrees with SkyHigh.  Early retirement bites.  (https://livingafi.com/2016/04/01/early-retirement-bites/#more-8793/)

mmm popcorn!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 05, 2022, 01:12:32 PM
This guy agrees with SkyHigh.  Early retirement bites.  (https://livingafi.com/2016/04/01/early-retirement-bites/#more-8793/)

Just in case anyone is confused...
Spoiler: show
That blog post was an April Fool's joke
Quote
Oh, and Happy April Fool’s Day. Obviously 99% of what I wrote in this post is the exact opposite of what I actually do and believe in real life.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: yachi on January 06, 2022, 09:53:07 AM

Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.

Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.

I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.

Maybe I'll try and watch this movie.  For anyone interested, 400K in 1985 had the buying power that $1,033,000 has today.  I expect in another 36 years it'll take $2.5 million to have the buying power that a million dollars has today.  *shrug*.  My money's invested in companies that can raise prices when they need to.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 06, 2022, 10:17:04 AM

Lost in America is a movie starring Albert Brooks and Julie Hagerty about a middle 30's urban professional couple who decide to quit their corporate jobs and retire early. They believe that they had reached a point of savings where they could sell their home, buy an RV and retire.

Van-life and FIRE concepts have been around for a long time. The movie came out in 1985. If I recall they had accumulated $400,000 at that point in their lives and believed that they had enough to live on for the rest of their lives. Albert Brooks was 38 at the time. He is currently 74. Imagine having to support a couple from a $400,000 nest egg for all that time. In 1985 $400,000 seemed like a limitless fortune.

I imagine that in 36 years from now a million dollars will seem like a pittance. I believe this movie is a great film and an example of FIRE gone wrong.

Maybe I'll try and watch this movie.  For anyone interested, 400K in 1985 had the buying power that $1,033,000 has today.  I expect in another 36 years it'll take $2.5 million to have the buying power that a million dollars has today.  *shrug*.  My money's invested in companies that can raise prices when they need to.

haha did all that math above including what the value of that money would be today after withdrawing 4% a year. its a really great example of an excellent year to FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 11, 2022, 09:06:36 AM
Lost in America

The movie makes several great points. A primary plot event is when a spouse loses most of their funds in an unexpected manner. A similar disaster can hit anyone’s retirement plan in an unlimited spectrum of ways.

Life is uncertain and the outcome of that uncertainty grows over a long enough period. In the movie "Lost in America", they proposed to retire 36 years ago. Since then, we've had at least three major financial downturns, two or three stock market crashes, and now inflationary threats. If the characters in that movie had made the wrong move at some point during the past 36 years it is easy to see how they could be in terrible shape today.

Retirement disasters are easy to research on the Internet. The world is rife with stories of best-laid plans gone awry. I am nearing the completion of certified financial planner training. One of the biggest issues the instructors keep hammering is to try and motivate clients to remain employed as long as possible.

No one here must take my word for it. A simple Google search will produce many hours of articles regarding the risk of early retirement. It is possible that if the characters in the movie "Lost In America" had done everything exactly right that they could have coasted into their late 70s with something left. I certainly do not want to take that risk. I have seen the consequences of failure.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on January 11, 2022, 09:13:16 AM
Lost in America

The movie makes several great points. A primary plot event is when a spouse loses most of their funds in an unexpected manner. A similar disaster can hit anyone’s retirement plan in an unlimited spectrum of ways.

Life is uncertain and the outcome of that uncertainty grows over a long enough period. In the movie "Lost in America", they proposed to retire 36 years ago. Since then, we've had at least three major financial downturns, two or three stock market crashes, and now inflationary threats. If the characters in that movie had made the wrong move at some point during the past 36 years it is easy to see how they could be in terrible shape today.

Retirement disasters are easy to research on the Internet. The world is rife with stories of best-laid plans gone awry. I am nearing the completion of certified financial planner training. One of the biggest issues the instructors keep hammering is to try and motivate clients to remain employed as long as possible.

No one here must take my word for it. A simple Google search will produce many hours of articles regarding the risk of early retirement. It is possible that if the characters in the movie "Lost In America" had done everything exactly right that they could have coasted into their late 70s with something left. I certainly do not want to take that risk. I have seen the consequences of failure.

Yeah, you already posted about that movie. And since you don't really bother to respond to or learn from what other people say on this thread, I'll just ignore what you wrote this time, and post what people responded the last time you talked about it.

Seriously, I cannot imagine how faulty your critical thinking skills are if you honestly believe that citing a fiction film is any sort of slam-dunk for your side. If anything, it makes your argument seem even more ridiculous.

The plot is that a 30-something couple has high paying corporate jobs they hate.  They run the numbers and conclude they can sell everything, RE and RV across the country full time.  The wife promptly losing their nest egg gambling.  They are forced to take menial jobs and living in near-poverty.  They conclude they want their soul-sucking corporate jobs back.

Moral of the story:  Don't lose your life savings gambling.

Wow. That's even a worse argument for his side than I thought. LMAO
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 11, 2022, 09:17:00 AM


Kris,

It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 11, 2022, 09:18:07 AM
Since we are repeating ourselves....

This thread reminds me of a Charlie Brown cartoon.  The OP is that voice of the teacher blabbering on in the background nonsensically while the main focus is the rest of us having an actually interesting discussion.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 11, 2022, 09:26:18 AM


Kris,

It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

They already know, lol. But you are tone deaf in this thread.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 11, 2022, 09:40:57 AM


Kris,

It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

HOLY FUCK no way man

Why didnt you state that as the thread title?  I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was.  Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 11, 2022, 09:43:40 AM
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.

To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.

To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.

The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2022, 09:50:42 AM
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.

To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.

To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.

The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 11, 2022, 09:53:39 AM


Kris,

It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

HOLY FUCK no way man

Why didnt you state that as the thread title?  I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was.  Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.

I started this thread long ago. The nature of the thread has since changed.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 11, 2022, 09:54:42 AM
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.

To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.

To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.

The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.

Thank you. My aim is to share my "post FIRE" experiences.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 11, 2022, 09:55:39 AM
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.

To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.

To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.

The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.

Thank you. My aim is to share my "post FIRE" experiences.

and how would you say thats going?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 11, 2022, 10:08:17 AM
It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

It's also possible (and far more probable) that you are completely ignoring the considerable contributions of others to this thread.  If you won't consider what they have to say, why should we continue to consider your single-point message? It seems we have already put substantial effort into discussing your premise.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 11, 2022, 10:17:32 AM


Kris,

It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

HOLY FUCK no way man

Why didnt you state that as the thread title?  I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was.  Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.

I started this thread long ago. The nature of the thread has since changed.

you realize that when you have a different topic you can start a new thread this isnt like your forum facebook page.  Now i'm pretty sure that new thread would receive next to no traffic if you treat it as you have this one so until your attitude and approach changes your message will continue to fall on deaf ears.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: alm0stk00l on January 11, 2022, 10:39:19 AM
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.

To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.

To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.

The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.

Many here use the 4% rule as a guideline, not a lifestyle strategy. FIRE people work toward 4% while consistently updating their finances, goals, and understandings and then RE when it feels right. You act like someone reads the 4% rule and then never thoughtfully examines their goals or lifestyle again for the next 20 years. Because you allow the world to happen to you does not mean that others don't live more intentionally.

It is hilarious to me what you are arguing. People here believe:

You are arguing that approaching life that way will lead to your downfall. The path to FIRE is a collection of guidelines and the collective wisdom of so many people. It is not a set of steadfast rules that must be applied to every life.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 11, 2022, 11:06:51 AM
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.

To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.

To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.

The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.

Thank you. My aim is to share my "post FIRE" experiences.
HaHaHaHaHa...
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 11, 2022, 11:32:04 AM
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.

To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.

To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.

The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.

Many here use the 4% rule as a guideline, not a lifestyle strategy. FIRE people work toward 4% while consistently updating their finances, goals, and understandings and then RE when it feels right. You act like someone reads the 4% rule and then never thoughtfully examines their goals or lifestyle again for the next 20 years. Because you allow the world to happen to you does not mean that others don't live more intentionally.

It is hilarious to me what you are arguing. People here believe:
  • Be mindful of your money
  • Be thoughtful in your life
  • Consume only what makes you happy
  • Ignore outside noise in designing your happiness
  • Be as charitable as you desire
  • Be creative in solving your probelms

You are arguing that approaching life that way will lead to your downfall. The path to FIRE is a collection of guidelines and the collective wisdom of so many people. It is not a set of steadfast rules that must be applied to every life.

The OP was forced out of his job and had to live on apparently a meager savings until he went back to work.  That's what he thinks FIRE is. He doesn't understand what people in this community are doing.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: yachi on January 11, 2022, 12:54:10 PM
The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.


Nuts?!  Mierda!  I've been accumulating stocks.  Why didn't you guys tell me I should accumulate nuts?  I've got so many questions now:

1.  Can I somehow exchange my stocks for nuts?
2.  Has the cost of nuts outpaced the price of stocks?
3.  Are nuts more or less valuable since America's Funniest Home Videos Kick in the nuts stopped airing?
4.  Can I still store my nuts in an IRA, or do I need a more secure location?
5.  Do I have to rollover my nuts, or do they rollover on their own?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 11, 2022, 01:33:15 PM
The concern I carry in the back of my mind is OP becoming some kind of financial advisor and bringing these prejudices to other people’s finances. People who are worried about taking the plunge into retirement may unwittingly work unnecessary years of their lives because OP doesn’t understand or believe in the robustness of a reasonable withdrawal rate, flexible spending strategies, a glide path asset allocation or another of the myriad of ways people can have very secure and happy early retirements. He also can’t see any of the beauty in early freedom so why would he be invested in helping his clients achieve it? It would be like going to a doctor who not-so-secretly thinks you are going to be better off staying sick.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on January 11, 2022, 02:20:56 PM
3.  Are nuts more or less valuable since America's Funniest Home Videos Kick in the nuts stopped airing?

I had a good laugh at this.  I've never been much of a TV watcher, but back when that show was on I had some roommates who liked it, or at least would watch it regularly.  It wasn't a question if there would be a nut kick video, the question was how many nut kick videos.  We used to refer to it as the Kick in the Nuts Show. 

The host, Bob Saget just died.  On that show, his jokes were juvenile and saccharine.  But his stand up act was side-splitting.   He was one of the direst comedians around.  Complete contrast to his TV work. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 12, 2022, 09:15:24 AM
Post-FIRE

My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.

I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.

My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.

Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.

Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.

During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DaMa on January 12, 2022, 09:17:19 AM
I would appreciate it if OP shared his troubles with finding a job after a short FIRE.  I retired knowing if the market went to shit, I could always go back to work.  BUT, I also knew after about a year, I would not be able to re-enter my career at the same level and might have trouble finding any job in that industry.  (Especially true, now that I speak out against the industry.)

IF the ACA was repealed and nothing replaced it, I would probably have to find a job with benefits or move to a state with a public plan.  I feel it is unlikely now, but 12 years is a long time, and that's assuming Medicare stays as is.

Just wanted to add, I had carefully considered this, before FIRE.  As does just about everybody who posts here!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 12, 2022, 09:24:28 AM
I would appreciate it if OP shared his troubles with finding a job after a short FIRE.  I retired knowing if the market went to shit, I could always go back to work.  BUT, I also knew after about a year, I would not be able to re-enter my career at the same level and might have trouble finding any job in that industry.  (Especially true, now that I speak out against the industry.)

IF the ACA was repealed and nothing replaced it, I would probably have to find a job with benefits or move to a state with a public plan.  I feel it is unlikely now, but 12 years is a long time, and that's assuming Medicare stays as is.

Just wanted to add, I had carefully considered this, before FIRE.  As does just about everybody who posts here!

I believe that employers select away from those they deem to be financially independent. They prefer employees who will hold onto their jobs as if it was a lifeline. Returning after a long absence is usually difficult. Employers are doubtful of a person's ability to restore the yoke of employment oppression. In my resume, I do not share that I am self-employed.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 12, 2022, 09:37:25 AM
Post-FIRE

My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.

I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.

My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.

Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.

Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.

During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.


Well for one thing FIRE != minimalism. Your FIRE can be minimalistic but it does not have to be. FIRE also doesn't have to be some weird cocoon that you envelope yourself in but can be the leaving of a chrysalis.

So you had a tightly constrained system when you FIRE'd and it did not succeed. Surprise surprise. Having a tightly constrained system means you have no flexibility. Rigidity is the enemy of adjusting to external variability.

Also you have an unhealthy perspective of what marriage and children affect an individual's life. When you say you lost control, control of what exactly?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on January 12, 2022, 09:50:20 AM
Well, you weren't really FIRE if we understand the term to mean covering your desired expenses without external income. You covered your bare bones expenses.  But you weren't close to covering the expenses of the fuller life you came to desire; spouse, children, friends, travel.  Imagine a full life (whatever that means for you), understand what it will take to finance that life, and conduct yourself accordingly.  It does seem that you had a very limited imagination in your 20's, which isn't unusual, as to what would really make you happy in life.  You certainly had the "living in a van down by the river" lifestyle nailed down! :)  Maybe you should go knocking on those van doors to pass your warning message on to the young'uns inside.*  On this Forum, most of us are living a richly satisfying FIRE life.

* not really kidding. It is important to learn to take a long view and not close off opportunities. Although your characterization of the alternative to the van isn't that appealing. "horror" "discomfort" "oppression" - and that's just in the most recent posts.

Post-FIRE

My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.

I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.

My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.

Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.

Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.

During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: sui generis on January 12, 2022, 09:52:16 AM
Post-FIRE

My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.

I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.

My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.

Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.

Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.

During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.

(to the bolded) No.  No it isn't, and doesn't have to be.  You did it wrong.  That's all there is to it.  You made yourself miserable in your "FIRE" and you didn't have to.  You could have had friends and dated people and had a rich and varied and fun social life (and I'm only tackling one angle of your miserable "FIRE" here) and you did not because of your own actions.  Whether it was due to lack of imagination or lack of effort, I don't know. 

But I'm going to reiterate something here that is a common theme on this thread: Learn to use "I statements" for chrissakes.  The things you learned or experienced are not objective truths.  They are your experience that you created and are often the opposite of what's true for the vast majority of people here on this forum.  We are not arguing with you about what your experience has been or your right to share that experience.  But we will argue with you about making statements like the bolded above that are framed as objective facts that apply to everyone, when they are not at all so.  We also have the same right to point out how your experience may be uncommon or have been the result of your own faulty decisions that could be avoided by XYZ (which does postentially serve as learning tools for future FIREes that are reading these boards).

Social lives can be very rich without spending lots of money because humans crave connection and don't need money to facilitate it.  You just have to be the tiniest bit creative.  I'm sorry you were unable to do that in your life, but don't blame it on FIRE.  The blame lies squarely with the beliefs you held and decisions you made.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DaMa on January 12, 2022, 10:05:14 AM
I wouldn't call what you did FIRE.  I'd call it an experiment. 

In my run up to FIRE, I cut my expenses as far as I could to see how low I could go and still be happy.  When I wasn't happy, I knew it was too low.  I spent 8 years exploring this - experimenting.  Then I considered what I would want to add in retirement.  For me this was travel, buy a home vs. rent, and saving for grandkids college.  (Here's where you would add marriage and children.)  That's how I got to my FIRE number.

I also explored ways to spend time with family and friends that didn't cost much.  We play games (board and video) and have potluck brunches and dinners.  I meet people at parks to go for walks.  We get together and do our hobbies (sewing and knitting for me).  I joined in some community activities, like a library book club.  I did more of this after I retired, not less, because I had more free time.

You didn't escape FIRE.  You found that your properties didn't provide enough income to support the life you wanted.  You weren't even at FI.  Great job trying it out, though!  You know you can survive a job cut.  I'd say you were at FU money.  Which is a great accomplishment at only 25.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 12, 2022, 10:08:36 AM
Post-FIRE

My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.

I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.

My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.

Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.

Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.

During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.


Well for one thing FIRE != minimalism. Your FIRE can be minimalistic but it does not have to be. FIRE also doesn't have to be some weird cocoon that you envelope yourself in but can be the leaving of a chrysalis.

So you had a tightly constrained system when you FIRE'd and it did not succeed. Surprise surprise. Having a tightly constrained system means you have no flexibility. Rigidity is the enemy of adjusting to external variability.

Also you have an unhealthy perspective of what marriage and children affect an individual's life. When you say you lost control, control of what exactly?

Hi,

The article is a story about my first experience with FIRE as a single 25-year-old. I have a second part in development about my current FIRE experience that is different.

 In regards to children, we have six kids. As you probably know, inviting others into your FIRE calculations means having to accommodate the unpredictable needs of others. I can control myself, but I can not create priorities for others. Effective minimalism means a careful selection of priorities. More people means more priorities to consider. Additionally, every person comes with a spectrum of events that can happen to them. Often these events are not good. Other events are good but come with an unplanned expense.  More people = a greater spectrum of possible needs.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 12, 2022, 10:16:49 AM
I wouldn't call what you did FIRE.  I'd call it an experiment. 

In my run up to FIRE, I cut my expenses as far as I could to see how low I could go and still be happy.  When I wasn't happy, I knew it was too low.  I spent 8 years exploring this - experimenting.  Then I considered what I would want to add in retirement.  For me this was travel, buy a home vs. rent, and saving for grandkids college.  (Here's where you would add marriage and children.)  That's how I got to my FIRE number.

I also explored ways to spend time with family and friends that didn't cost much.  We play games (board and video) and have potluck brunches and dinners.  I meet people at parks to go for walks.  We get together and do our hobbies (sewing and knitting for me).  I joined in some community activities, like a library book club.  I did more of this after I retired, not less, because I had more free time.

You didn't escape FIRE.  You found that your properties didn't provide enough income to support the life you wanted.  You weren't even at FI.  Great job trying it out, though!  You know you can survive a job cut.  I'd say you were at FU money.  Which is a great accomplishment at only 25.

I have to disagree. My early FIRE experience easily met every criterion of being Financially Independent and Retiring Early.  I do agree that it was a thin existence, however, plenty of people here are proposing something horribly similar without the same acknowledgment. My point is similar to yours. FIRE needs to also include the possibility of an active life. Many here seem confident that if they can accumulate a small pile of nuts and eke out a minimalistic existence they can live a FIRE life that is unrealistic, unlikely, and unhealthy. It is the point that I am trying to make.

Financial Independence is great. However, the prospect of Retiring Early on a bare minimum is not a good life. It's not a life at all.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 12, 2022, 10:33:42 AM
I wouldn't call what you did FIRE.  I'd call it an experiment. 

In my run up to FIRE, I cut my expenses as far as I could to see how low I could go and still be happy.  When I wasn't happy, I knew it was too low.  I spent 8 years exploring this - experimenting.  Then I considered what I would want to add in retirement.  For me this was travel, buy a home vs. rent, and saving for grandkids college.  (Here's where you would add marriage and children.)  That's how I got to my FIRE number.

I also explored ways to spend time with family and friends that didn't cost much.  We play games (board and video) and have potluck brunches and dinners.  I meet people at parks to go for walks.  We get together and do our hobbies (sewing and knitting for me).  I joined in some community activities, like a library book club.  I did more of this after I retired, not less, because I had more free time.

You didn't escape FIRE.  You found that your properties didn't provide enough income to support the life you wanted.  You weren't even at FI.  Great job trying it out, though!  You know you can survive a job cut.  I'd say you were at FU money.  Which is a great accomplishment at only 25.

I have to disagree. My early FIRE experience easily met every criterion of being Financially Independent and Retiring Early.  I do agree that it was a thin existence, however, plenty of people here are proposing something horribly similar without the same acknowledgment. My point is similar to yours. FIRE needs to also include the possibility of an active life. Many here seem confident that if they can accumulate a small pile of nuts and eke out a minimalistic existence they can live a FIRE life that is unrealistic, unlikely, and unhealthy. It is the point that I am trying to make.

Financial Independence is great. However, the prospect of Retiring Early on a bare minimum is not a good life. It's not a life at all.
[/quote

This is exactly why people are saying you failed to be FIRE - you didn't meet your own criteria for a happy, healthy lifestyle post employment. You did not have sufficient Financial resources, nor did you design your life in such a way to have flexibility or layers of safety.

It is apparent that you made a laundry-list of avoidable failures in your attempt to be FIRE.  It's no wonder you came out of the experience with negative feelings.  It is a shame you did not find and absorb the lessons and information provided by this forum earlier, as it could have saved you a great deal of trouble and discomfort.  then again, you do not seem at all interested in learning from this forum currently, so I'm not sure what difference it would make.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: alm0stk00l on January 12, 2022, 10:38:40 AM
I wouldn't call what you did FIRE.  I'd call it an experiment. 

In my run up to FIRE, I cut my expenses as far as I could to see how low I could go and still be happy.  When I wasn't happy, I knew it was too low.  I spent 8 years exploring this - experimenting.  Then I considered what I would want to add in retirement.  For me this was travel, buy a home vs. rent, and saving for grandkids college.  (Here's where you would add marriage and children.)  That's how I got to my FIRE number.

I also explored ways to spend time with family and friends that didn't cost much.  We play games (board and video) and have potluck brunches and dinners.  I meet people at parks to go for walks.  We get together and do our hobbies (sewing and knitting for me).  I joined in some community activities, like a library book club.  I did more of this after I retired, not less, because I had more free time.

You didn't escape FIRE.  You found that your properties didn't provide enough income to support the life you wanted.  You weren't even at FI.  Great job trying it out, though!  You know you can survive a job cut.  I'd say you were at FU money.  Which is a great accomplishment at only 25.

I have to disagree. My early FIRE experience easily met every criterion of being Financially Independent and Retiring Early.  I do agree that it was a thin existence, however, plenty of people here are proposing something horribly similar without the same acknowledgment. My point is similar to yours. FIRE needs to also include the possibility of an active life. Many here seem confident that if they can accumulate a small pile of nuts and eke out a minimalistic existence they can live a FIRE life that is unrealistic, unlikely, and unhealthy. It is the point that I am trying to make.

Financial Independence is great. However, the prospect of Retiring Early on a bare minimum is not a good life. It's not a life at all.

Ahh... I get it now. The point you are trying to make is that you can determine what the minimum is for other people and tell them it is too small to be happy. And you can tell people that being minimalistic is not possible and they will need more stuff in their life to be happy.

Could you succinctly provide a structure for the proper way to retire? Exactly how much money is enough? What is the exact correct age for every person? What is the minimum sq. ft. of home required to be happy? How many dress shirts must you own to make you smile?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 12, 2022, 10:46:20 AM
Post-FIRE

My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.

I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.

My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.

Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.

Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.

During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.

(to the bolded) No.  No it isn't, and doesn't have to be.  You did it wrong.  That's all there is to it.  You made yourself miserable in your "FIRE" and you didn't have to.  You could have had friends and dated people and had a rich and varied and fun social life (and I'm only tackling one angle of your miserable "FIRE" here) and you did not because of your own actions.  Whether it was due to lack of imagination or lack of effort, I don't know. 

But I'm going to reiterate something here that is a common theme on this thread: Learn to use "I statements" for chrissakes.  The things you learned or experienced are not objective truths.  They are your experience that you created and are often the opposite of what's true for the vast majority of people here on this forum.  We are not arguing with you about what your experience has been or your right to share that experience.  But we will argue with you about making statements like the bolded above that are framed as objective facts that apply to everyone, when they are not at all so.  We also have the same right to point out how your experience may be uncommon or have been the result of your own faulty decisions that could be avoided by XYZ (which does postentially serve as learning tools for future FIREes that are reading these boards).

Social lives can be very rich without spending lots of money because humans crave connection and don't need money to facilitate it.  You just have to be the tiniest bit creative.  I'm sorry you were unable to do that in your life, but don't blame it on FIRE.  The blame lies squarely with the beliefs you held and decisions you made.

I am not blaming anyone else, but am sharing my experiences. I understand that old-timers can meet at McDonald's for their 5 am coffee visit. My point is that retiring early is harmful to younger people. Younger people still like to do things. They go on trips, out to dinner, they engage in expensive hobbies. Some are content with limiting their social contact to exchanging memes on FaceBook, however, most like to do active things.

Dating is difficult in itself without having to restrict it to those who share similar minimalist goals. Good luck.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: sui generis on January 12, 2022, 10:57:01 AM
Post-FIRE

My first full experience with FIRE came by accident in my early to mid-20s. By that time in my life, I had suffered my first professional setback and a minor real estate gain. I used my humble proceeds to purchase a four-plex that I lived in. Realizing that my career prospects were slim I set to work slashing my budget down to a meager amount. Minimalism became a great hobby of mine as I combed through my expenses finding every little place I could cut. Eventually, I got my financial requirements down to around a few hundred dollars a month. I mowed the lawn at the building myself, conducted repairs, and managed it.

I also began to cut back on my social life. Associating with others is expensive. Going skiing and out to dinner is hugely destructive to a minimalist lifestyle. Dating also is a very costly and risky endeavor. I narrowed my social life down to a few people that lived within a few blocks and had a similar hermit lifestyle such as myself. The good news is that my plan worked. The rent covered my housing costs. My savings extended my ability to remain minimally employed for many years. Soon rent increases eclipsed the building expenses by a considerable margin. The surplus reached a point where I could extend my savings out into Infinity. Without even thinking about it I had reached a point where I didn't have to work a job ever again. I achieved FIRE at 25 years of age.

My life in FIRE was very safe. I had my expenses and activities whittled down to the bare minimum. Most days I slept until I naturally woke. I watched the morning news, read for a while, and wrote in my journal. I had a subscription to the newspaper so that I could clip coupons and buy macaroni and cheese for $0.35 a box. I sold my newer truck long prior and would ride my bicycle around town since I didn't need to get anywhere quickly. I lived alone and didn't need to carry a huge pile of groceries. The two small saddlebags on my bike could carry supplies to last for several weeks.

Time went by in this manner. The highlights of my week were usually going to the variety store on Tuesdays to survey the surprise sales followed by stopping at the library on my way back to check out new books and movies. This is how my life was living FIRE and it was ending one day at a time. Market conditions began to improve in my profession and opportunities slowly returned. The day came when I received an unsolicited phone call promoting a job offer. I had two days to think about it.

Around that time the realities of my FIRE lifestyle had made themselves painfully apparent. Without even trying I could see the decades of my life unfolding in a very predictable manner. To maintain a safe and comfortable FIRE lifestyle it is urgent to shun new and uncontrollable things in your life. Embarking on a new relationship that could lead to a spouse is akin to dropping a bomb into the middle of a minimalist's well-oiled financial machine. To entertain a relationship prospect that held the possibility of developing into a spouse you also must be prepared to surrender at least half of your control. Later I learned that I was mistaken. When people marry and have children you end up losing all control.

During those two days, I carefully evaluated the paths that lay before me. I could either remain in my humble secure existence of nothingness or hurl myself into the current of life with the full knowledge of what I would be giving up. As you may have already guessed I ended up leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.

(to the bolded) No.  No it isn't, and doesn't have to be.  You did it wrong.  That's all there is to it.  You made yourself miserable in your "FIRE" and you didn't have to.  You could have had friends and dated people and had a rich and varied and fun social life (and I'm only tackling one angle of your miserable "FIRE" here) and you did not because of your own actions.  Whether it was due to lack of imagination or lack of effort, I don't know. 

But I'm going to reiterate something here that is a common theme on this thread: Learn to use "I statements" for chrissakes.  The things you learned or experienced are not objective truths.  They are your experience that you created and are often the opposite of what's true for the vast majority of people here on this forum.  We are not arguing with you about what your experience has been or your right to share that experience.  But we will argue with you about making statements like the bolded above that are framed as objective facts that apply to everyone, when they are not at all so.  We also have the same right to point out how your experience may be uncommon or have been the result of your own faulty decisions that could be avoided by XYZ (which does postentially serve as learning tools for future FIREes that are reading these boards).

Social lives can be very rich without spending lots of money because humans crave connection and don't need money to facilitate it.  You just have to be the tiniest bit creative.  I'm sorry you were unable to do that in your life, but don't blame it on FIRE.  The blame lies squarely with the beliefs you held and decisions you made.

I am not blaming anyone else, but am sharing my experiences. I understand that old-timers can meet at McDonald's for their 5 am coffee visit. My point is that retiring early is harmful to younger people. Younger people still like to do things. They go on trips, out to dinner, they engage in expensive hobbies. Some are content with limiting their social contact to exchanging memes on FaceBook, however, most like to do active things.

Dating is difficult in itself without having to restrict it to those who share similar minimalist goals. Good luck.

You still have a jaw-dropping lack of imagination about meaningful and fulfilling social interactions without spending money. You act like doing "active things" is synonymous with spending money and it just isn't.  In fact some of the most active things people can do (in the literal sense of either intellectually or physically active) are completely free.  And buying coffee at McDonald's every day would get expensive, so it just shows how limited your imagination is.

Orrrrr.....as others have suggested and surmised, you are just a total troll.  I really found myself agreeing with this assessment for most of the recent few weeks of posts and then I forgot and replied.  Sigh.  Point to you, skyhigh. 

As much as it's hard to look away from a train wreck, I think it's my time to hit the unnotify button on this one.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 12, 2022, 11:40:42 AM
You can be active, travel, have kids, and all that in FiRE if you plan for it - which you did not.  If you didn't have enough money for a fulfilling lifestyle with your family, you failed at FIRE because you didn't plan appropriately. People on this forum track their current level of spending and account for extra retirement costs like travel and health care, etc. You didn't do that.

This isn't an us (FIRE community) problem, it's a you problem.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 12, 2022, 11:47:52 AM
Maybe OP thought he wandered in on the Early Retirement Extreme forum where everyone is spending $20k/year in FIRE? If your lifestyle is too barebones for your own happiness then sure, I can see earning people against that. But making the leap from his experience in his 20s to somehow all of us are leading bare, restricted, narrow lives is a huge leap of faith with zero evidence to support.

Some of us spend very little. Some spend a ton. Plenty spend somewhere in between. It isn’t so important how much we spend but that we do so thoughtfully and on the things in life that being us joy. Figure out whatever that costs for your unique situation and stop working once you have sufficient nuts to fund that lifestyle. Or a bit more if you think your tastes will change a bit over time.

Sheesh. This isn’t that hard.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 12, 2022, 12:05:37 PM
You can be active, travel, have kids, and all that in FiRE if you plan for it - which you did not.  If you didn't have enough money for a fulfilling lifestyle with your family, you failed at FIRE because you didn't plan appropriately. People on this forum track their current level of spending and account for extra retirement costs like travel and health care, etc. You didn't do that.

This isn't an us (FIRE community) problem, it's a you problem.

holy shit you just described my plans throw in a boat and wakesurfing and you're there!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 12, 2022, 01:06:05 PM
You can be active, travel, have kids, and all that in FiRE if you plan for it - which you did not.  If you didn't have enough money for a fulfilling lifestyle with your family, you failed at FIRE because you didn't plan appropriately. People on this forum track their current level of spending and account for extra retirement costs like travel and health care, etc. You didn't do that.

This isn't an us (FIRE community) problem, it's a you problem.

holy shit you just described my plans throw in a boat and wakesurfing and you're there!

IIRC our own @arebelspy FIREd, is active, has traveled extensively and has three kids. All of this from a sub-median salary as a teacher. Despite (or perhaps "because") of being FIRED and active and travel and having kids I believe his NW has only grown over the last six years.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: herbgeek on January 12, 2022, 01:36:26 PM
Quote
Many here seem confident that if they can accumulate a small pile of nuts and eke out a minimalistic existence they can live a FIRE life that is unrealistic, unlikely, and unhealthy.

And no one here is saying that but you.  There is no one posting who spends the bare minimum, makes pennies scream and lives this miserable existence.   Its a ridiculous straw man argument that you then knock down, as you've done many times in this thread.   

I have a significant travel budget, a personal indulgences allowance, eat and drink very well, take classes, do various activities with friends, donate to causes I care about, volunteer.  I planned my retirement to have enough to engage in activities I find of value, as well as extra money for serendipity.   Most posters have mentioned hobbies and are actively engaged in life. 

You keep inferring we are all miserable and should do things your way-- and then you say things like
Quote
leaving my safe static cocoon of FIRE in trade for the horror and discomfort of a courageous unrestrained out of control life.
.  Yeah that sounds like a winning plan. 

Dude, ITS YOU.  You aren't happy, you will likely NEVER be happy.   Nothing to do with FIRE, everything to do with the choices you've made and continue to make. 

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 13, 2022, 10:43:30 AM
Doing post-FIRE well continues to require a certain amount of initiative, especially once your time is completely yours to manage. Maybe the OP just really isn't capable of it. There's no point in telling him he's wrong. The student clearly isn't ready.

It occurs to me that based on OP's replies, maybe the problem is he's reaching HIS definition of FIRE, but he's not breaking through to post-FIRE life. Too bad for him, because life is great on the other side. Who even thinks about work any more, let alone laments it?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DaTrill on January 13, 2022, 01:42:00 PM


Kris,

It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

HOLY FUCK no way man

Why didnt you state that as the thread title?  I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was.  Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.

People disagree on the internet? 

Maybe start a "Work-tell-you-die" cult proclaiming happiness comes from new stuff and debt, other than Facebook. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 13, 2022, 03:05:12 PM
I just had a fantastic morning where all I spent  was some time and energy.

A old work colleague who became a good friend reached out last week.  He wanted my address and also asked if I was free for a chat sometime.  We booked the call for today and in  the meantime I received his note in the mail -- he and his wife are expecting their first baby!

Today the clouds lifted so I decided to do a long walk around my beautiful neighborhood while we chatted.  We hadn't talked in several months, so there was lots to catch up with on both sides.  It was really great  to  reconnect.  As I was on the last leg home, I asked what kind of support network they had near them  for   when  the  baby comes.  Not  much, it  turns out -- they are near NYC and their families are scattered around the country.  So I let him know that if they need a hand at any point they should feel free to reach out -- I'd be happy to help them adjust to parenthood, or manage the transition to daycare, or whatever.  He then floated the idea of a trip to the NE together -- his dad lives in a very pretty part of the country and we could stay there while doing low key hikes with the baby in  a backpack and what not.  Sure!  I'm up for that.

We ended the call as I got home and I realized I had been walking for 90 minutes!  Went up several steep hills, too, so I got a really good workout.  And the call made it so pleasant.  Going to start working more catchup calls in with friends as I also meet my exercise/being outside goals for the year.

It was lunch time when I got home so I cooked up a great pot of soup using kale from my garden and chicken broth I made from the bones of a Costco roasted chicken last week.  Also threw in some chinese sausage that had been languishing in the fridge. It was really tasty and I have enough leftovers for several more bowls. 

The sun is still out so after I take out the garbage/composting I think I'll transplant some of the strawberries that I got to root from runners off of last year's plants.   I did spend a few bucks for a new variety, but it and the plants I got from a neighbor last year both spread so vigorously I will never have to buy strawberry plants again -- and I have plenty to give away to garden- and fruit-loving friends, which is another way I build community.

I'm just repeating the same message a lot of others have posted already:  a rich and rewarding life doesn't have to cost a ton of money.  Learn to cook well and you never have to set foot in a restaurant again once your friends try your food.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 14, 2022, 10:43:03 AM
I was 37 years old the day I learned that my career was over. Two decades of continuous effort snuffed out with a single news report that my employer had ceased operations. At the time I'd reached a point where I was about to achieve my career objective position. At job fairs, prospective employers showed interest and I was starting to get interviews before the economy collapsed and my company folded.

At the time, my wife and I had two toddlers with one on the way. I clearly remember being terrified as I stared at my final paycheck and wondered what we were going to do next. Thankfully my side hustle had been the slow accumulation of 7 rental homes. At every stop on my career path, I would accumulate a house or two. When it was time to leave, I would rent them out and move on to my next position. They were spread along the west coast, and I managed them from afar. Now my access to free travel was extinguished and I had to make a change.

The real estate market was enjoying an upswing. I was able to quickly liquidate my distant investments and, using a 1031 tax exchange, reconstituted the equity into building lots back in my rural hometown. My family and I moved from the heart of urban life to where the cost of living was low and effectively created a new fighting position on familiar ground. The only other job skill I had accumulated in my life to that point was in the construction of single-family housing. Using that ability, I began to construct rental houses on the lots I purchased, and we were quickly on our way to a new life.

As the years went by, I was able to acquire or build three to five homes per year. I managed all parts of construction and conducted much of the labor myself. It was grueling manual labor however I was beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel before the collapse of 2008 occurred eliminating access to mortgages. Idled again by another economic downturn I began to hunt for new ways to make myself productive. Eventually, it occurred to me that the growing number of vacant homes would need professional property management. I was able to secure a designated real estate broker's license and opened my own property management business.

The first years were grueling. I went from being a physical laborer to one who had to manage people. These skills did not come instinctively to me. Emotional work is some of the most painful that I have experienced and by far the least fun. When starting a business, you don't get to pick and choose the fun parts. You are responsible for all the tasks to run the operation including those you are not well suited for. It wore me down emotionally and would seek refuge in the footwell of my desk on occasion so that people would think I had left. Eventually, I was able to begin hiring staff to help carry the load. Eight or more years ago, I had reached a point where I had hired and trained and hired enough people to be able to replace myself completely. I was free to return to my chosen profession and set to work hunting job opportunities.

Quickly I discovered that my stale resume had no value. Employers were not impressed by my recent years of manual labor. They were not interested in my business accomplishments either. I had to start completely over at an entry-level position in my field to restore my professional value. So, I began to climb the ladder anew and eventually worked my way into a good job at a professional level position that serves as a respected credential. Eventually, I was again experiencing positive feedback from prospective employers and even started to receive some interview invitations before covid hit.

The purpose here is to share my story of how I reached FIRE. Though I do receive paychecks, the last check I received as the sole support of my family was a very long time ago. The bulk of my financial support comes from passive and active sources. I am very thankful that my real estate efforts bore fruit. My family is much happier after my career imploded. We eventually grew to 6 children and have been able to live in a manner that we only dreamed of as a wage slave. My career had me on the road constantly. Now my wife has me close at hand every day. I am only a text away from picking up a kid at school for an orthodontist appointment or last-minute items at the store. Since being laid off long ago, I have been home nearly every night. I currently am employed full-time in a position in my chosen field however, it is not my career objective. Apart from that, I can do what I want most of the time except sleep-in since the kids must be at school. I still head into the office on days where I am not engaged with my profession and join in with whatever situation is at hand. Lately, we have been focused on snow removal. Life in FIRE is great. I could spend my days skiing but choose not to. 

I would like to make the point here that I do not have to work at all and have been in that situation for a very long time. Employment is my choice. Nothing in life is either all good or all bad. There are some considerable downsides to life after FIRE. It is the primary focus of my contributions to this thread.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 14, 2022, 10:48:26 AM


Kris,

It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

HOLY FUCK no way man

Why didnt you state that as the thread title?  I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was.  Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.

The original intent of my thread was to learn from others how to break into the network of corporate employment and escape FIRE. It has since changed into a discussion about the downsides of FIRE life.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 14, 2022, 10:51:42 AM
Many here like to use the 4% annual withdrawal example and assumptions to prove to themselves that the future will unfold as they expect. The common early retirement strategy is to accumulate a minimum pile of nuts as a hedge against future needs and minimally feed off the pile in a consistent predictable manner thereon.

To cease the effort of bringing financially new things in our lives also means the elimination of opportunity. These projections often require the assumption that nothing new of value will come into your life that could result in an increased consumption rate. No new relationships. No significant travel opportunities, No helping of others in need. No new hobbies. No new educational exploits. No more children.

To me that just seems so sad. Spending decades watching TV, taking walks in the park, and intentionally having to avoid new things is a grim prospect to me. Carefully doling out your monthly portion is no way to live. I spent a few years doing that and the negatives quickly become obvious. If someone is well past any of that I can see retirement as a welcomed situation, however, to sign off from opportunity at 35 years of age seems like a mistake.

The future could be better, and it could also be very much worse. No graph can predict the future of you.
All of that could apply whether you're working or not. But hey, you keep doing you. No one does it better.

I agree. No path is without its perils.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 14, 2022, 10:51:58 AM


Kris,

It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

HOLY FUCK no way man

Why didnt you state that as the thread title?  I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was.  Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.

The original intent of my thread was to learn from others how to break into the network of corporate employment and escape FIRE. It has since changed into a discussion about the downsides of FIRE life.

It's sad you think this is a discussion. To be a discussion all parties have to read and evolve their statements based on other input. This is you posting the same boring fire bashing bullshit over and over and failing to discuss anything with anyone.  Now other people here are having discussions. You aren't.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 14, 2022, 11:26:19 AM


Kris,

It seems that I don't agree with that others here are posting. It is possible that I am trying to help them to understand the hazards of early retirement.

HOLY FUCK no way man

Why didnt you state that as the thread title?  I had no idea your goals were to bash how bad FIRE was.  Maybe you should work on your delivery because this came across to me as you being very very pro FIRE through posting movies that timed out to radically successful FIRE stories.

The original intent of my thread was to learn from others how to break into the network of corporate employment and escape FIRE. It has since changed into a discussion about the downsides of FIRE life.

It's sad you think this is a discussion. To be a discussion all parties have to read and evolve their statements based on other input. This is you posting the same boring fire bashing bullshit over and over and failing to discuss anything with anyone.  Now other people here are having discussions. You aren't.

I read the comments. Many of them are simple attempts to deliver a predictable blow to my sacrilegious FIRE posts. Other comments are more interesting and I respond to them. I don't know much about you. It helps to know more about those with whom I am conversing. It seems unfair to enter a discussion with those who I do not know anything about because I believe that people experience FIRE differently based upon age, relationship status, and if they have children or not. I share a lot about my situation.

Many here seem to be single hermits who are more than happy to burrow deep into their one-bedroom apartments on a meager stipend and a cat. Others here do not seem to have any ambitions beyond merely existing. I don't understand those aspirations. Intelligent goal-oriented people need to be challenged. They require resources in order to pursue their dreams and interests. Boredom and a lack of purpose lead to depression. Those who are parents have an example to provide for their children. Every situation is unique, however, in my experience, a life of nothingness is not well received by most.

If my words do not apply to you at all then why care?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 14, 2022, 11:30:56 AM
lol, I see you've moved on to flat out lies
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 14, 2022, 11:41:06 AM
I don't even try to find articles about the folly of early retirement. They are everywhere if you look. I am by no means alone in my position.

Yesterday the USA Today had an article titled "4-reasons-not-to-retire-in-your-50-s". In case you don't have access here is the summary: You might run out of money in your old age. No one here can accurately predict the future. I saw another opinion piece written by someone a few days ago who claimed that "so much of retirement planning is wishful thinking - - - what I've learned after 3 years of actually being retired".

If you look there are a lot of articles and advice pieces regarding the hazards of early retirement. It might be fun for now, but maybe not so much fun later long after you can do anything about it. The world is facing a retirement crisis. I can't understand how anyone who is of working age and ability can turn away from such an important source of support given the uncertainties we face.



Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 14, 2022, 11:42:21 AM
lol, I see you've moved on to flat out lies

I am curious, what is the "lie" you are referring to?  If you are going to levy a statement like that then you should offer an explanation.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 14, 2022, 11:46:53 AM
Some of us live in lovely large houses and do good work in our communities. Mostly what we are is a RESILIENT bunch.

We engage to provide a counterpoint to your bitterness toward FIRE. Greater good and all that.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on January 14, 2022, 11:59:21 AM
Two years on this thread.  Don't feed it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DadJokes on January 14, 2022, 12:01:16 PM
Y'all can just stop engaging with him at any time. It's quite clear that he's either a troll or completely incapable of processing new information that doesn't fit his distorted view of reality.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 14, 2022, 12:11:32 PM
Many here seem to be single hermits who are more than happy to burrow deep into their one-bedroom apartments on a meager stipend and a cat. Others here do not seem to have any ambitions beyond merely existing.

Never met anyone on MMM that didn't fit this definition to a "t"!

Oh wait, actually, never met anyone on MMM that fit this definition. 🤔

This whole thread... is based on the juvenile game "opposite day!" We just have to wait for the long game to end, and SkyHigh will pull the rug out and yell "Psych!" Can't wait. I mean, I can wait. 😉

We should gather the list of assumptions being used in the hypothesis that "FIRE is bad for you."
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 14, 2022, 12:25:10 PM
lol, I see you've moved on to flat out lies

I am curious, what is the "lie" you are referring to?  If you are going to levy a statement like that then you should offer an explanation.

Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ixtap on January 14, 2022, 12:30:06 PM
Two years on this thread.  Don't feed it.

How else will we intentionally avoid new things?!?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on January 14, 2022, 12:42:35 PM
Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?
This is cutting it kind of close for me, but no cat.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 14, 2022, 12:59:33 PM
Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?
This is cutting it kind of close for me, but no cat.

Have you tried clawing your way into the corporate world? I'd love to have a one-bedroom apartment, actually, but those darn kids of mine.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: jim555 on January 14, 2022, 01:04:28 PM
Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?
This is cutting it kind of close for me, but no cat.

Have you tried clawing your way into the corporate world? I'd love to have a one-bedroom apartment, actually, but those darn kids of mine.
It is a point of personal failure for me, can't get back to the 3 hour commutes, grinding meetings, and micro managing bosses.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 14, 2022, 01:19:29 PM
Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?
This is cutting it kind of close for me, but no cat.

Have you tried clawing your way into the corporate world? I'd love to have a one-bedroom apartment, actually, but those darn kids of mine.
It is a point of personal failure for me, can't get back to the 3 hour commutes, grinding meetings, and micro managing bosses.
We forgive you.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: chasingthegoodlife on January 14, 2022, 03:45:56 PM
Congratulations on finding a full time role in your chosen field. You mention it is not your career objective. Do you mean you are working towards a different role in your field? Would you feel comfortable sharing a bit more about what your ultimate goal position is? I am interested what this role involves that has been so difficult to replicate in a voluntary or self employed way. Sounds like you are closer to your goals than when you started this thread, which is great.

Out of curiosity, you mention you started your property management business in 2008 and it took some years to establish, and now you are working full time in a different role - which years have you had a break from working entirely?

To me, your story reads as someone who wasn’t able to continue working in their industry of choice due to an industry downturn and instead created two businesses of their own, before eventually breaking back into the industry they started in. From where I’m sitting, having that initial capital when you lost your job probably gave you more options (your laid off colleagues may have had to take less desirable or skilled jobs like admin or hospitality?) But it sounds as though you see having a fall back option delayed you from re-entering your preferred field because you didn’t NEED to?

To me that seems more a problem of having savings than of retiring  - by your own account you worked very hard to establish those businesses (I’m the daughter of a self made man who happily chooses to work for a wage - running a business us no joke!)

I get that some people might be more hungry for success when failure is ‘not an option’ but still I would choose to have savings if I got laid off, I think
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ixtap on January 14, 2022, 04:12:28 PM
lol, I see you've moved on to flat out lies

I am curious, what is the "lie" you are referring to?  If you are going to levy a statement like that then you should offer an explanation.

Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?
I'm surprised he even gave us this much credit because I'd think this is would be an upgrade from van life. FatFIRE? I just don't know how even even gets this stuff from ANY of the forum threads. It's like, IDK, he hasn't read them.

I would prefer vanlife to holed up in an apartment life. Planning to try it after doing boatlife for a while.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on January 14, 2022, 04:13:20 PM
lol, I see you've moved on to flat out lies

I am curious, what is the "lie" you are referring to?  If you are going to levy a statement like that then you should offer an explanation.

Where are the many single hermits, holing up in their one-bedroom apartments with meager stipends and a cat, and ambition-less lumps that you've met on here? Is there like a thread or subboard where they are all hanging out?
I'm surprised he even gave us this much credit because I'd think this is would be an upgrade from van life. FatFIRE? I just don't know how even even gets this stuff from ANY of the forum threads. It's like, IDK, he hasn't read them.

I mean, he has proven in this thread to be remarkably capable of skipping over anything that challenges or refutes what he wants to believe. I guess that’s how he reads the rest of the forum as well?
Title: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 14, 2022, 08:59:18 PM
I used to read the Post FIRE threads on breaks at work as inspiration. I would read journals like John Snow and just lose myself in daydreams of how wonderful it must be to not have to go into the office and deal with the stress and bullshit.

Thankfully I also had rewarding positions and also did cool things. I’m grateful for that opportunity. But I am also immensely grateful for this amazing gift I have that is FIRE. Sure, raising little kids can be tough and frustrating sometimes but overall life is awesome!

Today I walked my kid to school, then went on a little run that looped back to home, listening to the birds and admiring the foggy sunrise. I skipped the strength exercises this morning because I was feeling tired and instead showered and ate second breakfast. I then biked to the store to pick up a few things and caught up with a friend on video chat over her lunch break from work. A quick parent-teacher conference and then I was able to accommodate a last minute contractor stopping by to give us a quote on a kitchen remodel. I then tried out a new instant pot recipe for dinner while talking Roth conversions and capital gains taxes with my husband (sexy!). :) We had our usual dinner together as a family and put the kids to bed.

I’m going to send out an email and then read a book with a back massager on my shoulders.

Not a shabby life at all.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: MaybeBabyMustache on January 14, 2022, 09:44:31 PM
I used to read the Post FIRE threads on breaks at work as inspiration. I would read journals like John Snow and just lose myself in daydreams of how wonderful it must be to not have to go into the office and deal with the stress and bullshit.

Thankfully I also had rewarding positions and also did cool things. I’m grateful for that opportunity. But I am also immensely grateful for this amazing gift I have that is FIRE. Sure, raising little kids can be tough and frustrating sometimes but overall life is awesome!

Today I walked my kid to school, then went on a little run that looped back to home, listening to the birds and admiring the foggy sunrise. I skipped the strength exercises this morning because I was feeling tired and instead showered and ate second breakfast. I then biked to the store to pick up a few things and caught up with a friend on video chat over her lunch break from work. A quick parent-teacher conference and then I was able to accommodate a last minute contractor stopping by to give us a quote on a kitchen remodel. I then tried out a new instant pot recipe for dinner while talking Roth conversions and capital gains taxes with my husband (sexy!). :) We had our usual dinner together as a family and put the kids to bed.

I’m going to send out an email and then read a book with a back massager on my shoulders.

Not a shabby life at all.

Bullsh*t, @ysette9 - Your FIRE life is sad, miserable, lonely & you are WASTING yourself. Have you read none of this thread?! /s

It all sounds glorious to me! Living an intentional life that you planned for & are enjoying? Perfect.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 14, 2022, 10:18:10 PM
I used to read the Post FIRE threads on breaks at work as inspiration. I would read journals like John Snow and just lose myself in daydreams of how wonderful it must be to not have to go into the office and deal with the stress and bullshit.

Thankfully I also had rewarding positions and also did cool things. I’m grateful for that opportunity. But I am also immensely grateful for this amazing gift I have that is FIRE. Sure, raising little kids can be tough and frustrating sometimes but overall life is awesome!

Today I walked my kid to school, then went on a little run that looped back to home, listening to the birds and admiring the foggy sunrise. I skipped the strength exercises this morning because I was feeling tired and instead showered and ate second breakfast. I then biked to the store to pick up a few things and caught up with a friend on video chat over her lunch break from work. A quick parent-teacher conference and then I was able to accommodate a last minute contractor stopping by to give us a quote on a kitchen remodel. I then tried out a new instant pot recipe for dinner while talking Roth conversions and capital gains taxes with my husband (sexy!). :) We had our usual dinner together as a family and put the kids to bed.

I’m going to send out an email and then read a book with a back massager on my shoulders.

Not a shabby life at all.
Remember how worried you were about All The Things before you pulled the plug? You must be doing something wrong now. /s
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 17, 2022, 09:47:13 AM

Another great Retirement movie recommendation

(2015) The Intern - Robert De Nero and Anne Hathaway.

It is a story about an accomplished age-appropriate retiree who goes back to work in an entry-level position. In my opinion, it is a great movie about the benefits of maintaining a purpose and lifelong contribution.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 17, 2022, 09:50:03 AM

Another great Retirement movie recommendation

(2015) The Intern - Robert De Nero and Anne Hathaway.

It is a story about an accomplished age-appropriate retiree who goes back to work in an entry-level position. In my opinion, it is a great movie about the benefits of maintaining a purpose and lifelong contribution.

way to totally engage in the conversation and not continue to just post random shit.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 17, 2022, 09:55:39 AM
The Financial Samurai had an article on November the 20th of 2021 titled "The Negatives of Early Retirement Life Nobody Likes to Talk About".  It truly is a review of everything that I have written about here. Sams does a much better job than me. Read the comments. It is like I wrote them myself. (I didn't)  My point is that my experiences and opinions are not unique.

Another great one from the FS blog is, "The Surprising Negatives of Living the FIRE Lifestyle".  There are many more out there. All it takes is a simple google search.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 17, 2022, 09:58:49 AM
The Financial Samurai had an article on November the 20th of 2021 titled "The Negatives of Early Retirement Life Nobody Likes to Talk About".  It truly is a review of everything that I have written about here. Sams does a much better job than me. Read the comments. It is like I wrote them myself. (I didn't)  My point is that my experiences and opinions are not unique.

Another great one from the FS blog is, "The Surprising Negatives of Living the FIRE Lifestyle".  There are many more out there. All it takes is a simple google search.

thats like saying voldemort around here that guy is just baiting for clickbait now.  But maybe you can go find companionship there?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 17, 2022, 10:01:55 AM
The Financial Samurai had an article on November the 20th of 2021 titled "The Negatives of Early Retirement Life Nobody Likes to Talk About".  It truly is a review of everything that I have written about here. Sams does a much better job than me. Read the comments. It is like I wrote them myself. (I didn't)  My point is that my experiences and opinions are not unique.

Another great one from the FS blog is, "The Surprising Negatives of Living the FIRE Lifestyle".  There are many more out there. All it takes is a simple google search.
Hmmm, maybe that's where you should be posting...
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 17, 2022, 10:06:14 AM
The Financial Samurai had an article on November the 20th of 2021 titled "The Negatives of Early Retirement Life Nobody Likes to Talk About".  It truly is a review of everything that I have written about here. Sams does a much better job than me. Read the comments. It is like I wrote them myself. (I didn't)  My point is that my experiences and opinions are not unique.

Another great one from the FS blog is, "The Surprising Negatives of Living the FIRE Lifestyle".  There are many more out there. All it takes is a simple google search.

thats like saying voldemort around here that guy is just baiting for clickbait now.  But maybe you can go find companionship there?
Yeah, if you think Financial Samurai is going to receive a good reception around here you clearly mis-judged this forum.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 17, 2022, 11:11:24 AM

MMM and FS

From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.

Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.

I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 17, 2022, 11:18:36 AM

MMM and FS

From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.

Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.

I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.
You are literally the only person here who has argued that retirement = nothingness. We have spent pages now trying to show you that isn’t the case.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 17, 2022, 11:46:49 AM
As others have pointed out, you won't get much traction with FS here, and for good reason.
While Sam had some quality content early on, his later information is simply wrong.  It's not that we disagree with his opinions (which we do), but that he's guilty of using completely erroneous numbers in order to generate sensational click-bait articles to drive traffic.  Given his aptitude with finances, I can only conclude that he is deliberately and consistently lying in his posts.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ROF Expat on January 17, 2022, 11:54:29 AM
Skyhigh,

I think I replied to one of your posts a couple of years ago and said what I have to say, but I'm going to give it one more shot. 

Some people on this forum think you are a troll.  I kind of wish you were, because that would be better than your reality.  I think you are a deeply unhappy person who has never been able to get over being laid off from your chosen career path before achieving your goals. 

Most people who achieve difficult goals have failures, but they usually dust themselves off, think hard about how much of the failure was their own fault, and start over again.  Or try something new.  In your messages, I see common themes of blame of industry, company, and economy, ageism, etc. but never any hint that you might bear even a tiny amount of responsibility for losing your position and your inability to gain a new one.  And an absolute refusal to start over again at a lower level to get back on the ladder. 

I also think you have some serious self-esteem issues.  Your continued focus on a career blip decades ago and illusions about the "prestige" of a corporate career rather than pride in building a successful business and raising a happy family is just one example. 

Two things you said in previous posts really leapt out at me: 

"I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either."

"My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them." 

It is sad that you choose to characterize yourself with "I mow lawns" rather than "I'm a serial entrepreneur/real estate investor/business owner" and even more sad that you are embarrassed to be among your peers.  I also think you should listen to your wife and start pursuing happiness, either by making the sacrifices to follow your dream career (which involves risking failure), rethinking your career/life goals, and/or getting some counseling. 

I doubt you will take my advice above.  If that's the case, I have one other suggestion:  I presume your various businesses are structured in some formal way, as an LLC, corporation, or the like.  Give your company a fancy sounding name like "The Skyhigh Group" or "Skyhigh Capital".  Then, name yourself President or appoint your wife to the board and name yourself CEO.  Have some business cards made with your new title (spend the extra money for engraved cards if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Buy some expensive business suits (spend the extra money for high-end shoes if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Make some donations to the right local charities (As little as $5,000 or $10,000 donation to the local symphony/art museum/children's museum/children's hospital will get your or your company's name on programs, some invitations to events, and give you something to brag about).  Maybe buy a car that quietly says "money" (Toyota Landcruiser and a Mercedes station wagon are both solid choices).  Then go to parties and quietly look down your nose at the other guests.  You'll discover that most people really don't care what you do, but those who are shallow (dare I say bourgeois?) enough to be impressed by things like titles will be impressed.  If your businesses are doing as well as you say, you might want to consider hiring a hard charging young man or woman to do the lawn mowing and painting and learning to manage your businesses while you focus on expansion and making more money.  Then you'd actually be doing the President/CEO work indicated by your business card.  And I'll let you in on a secret:  in America, at the end of the day, most people are more impressed by money than titles. 

BTW,  you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door."  Some of the ideas in the book might help you recognize your own successes, and millionaires who were driven to succeed by childhood poverty and personal insecurity is one of the themes. 

Life is too short to be unhappy, and I think most people on this forum are a lot more interested in hearing from people who can be good examples rather than horrible warnings.  I think you've successfully made your point here; nobody wants to make the mistakes you've made.  It is just that nobody here thinks your real mistakes were about choosing FIRE. 

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 17, 2022, 12:03:01 PM
~applauding~
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 17, 2022, 02:30:41 PM
Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115 (http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115)
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 17, 2022, 05:02:10 PM
Skyhigh,

I think I replied to one of your posts a couple of years ago and said what I have to say, but I'm going to give it one more shot. 

Some people on this forum think you are a troll.  I kind of wish you were, because that would be better than your reality.  I think you are a deeply unhappy person who has never been able to get over being laid off from your chosen career path before achieving your goals. 

Most people who achieve difficult goals have failures, but they usually dust themselves off, think hard about how much of the failure was their own fault, and start over again.  Or try something new.  In your messages, I see common themes of blame of industry, company, and economy, ageism, etc. but never any hint that you might bear even a tiny amount of responsibility for losing your position and your inability to gain a new one.  And an absolute refusal to start over again at a lower level to get back on the ladder. 

I also think you have some serious self-esteem issues.  Your continued focus on a career blip decades ago and illusions about the "prestige" of a corporate career rather than pride in building a successful business and raising a happy family is just one example. 

Two things you said in previous posts really leapt out at me: 

"I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either."

"My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them." 

It is sad that you choose to characterize yourself with "I mow lawns" rather than "I'm a serial entrepreneur/real estate investor/business owner" and even more sad that you are embarrassed to be among your peers.  I also think you should listen to your wife and start pursuing happiness, either by making the sacrifices to follow your dream career (which involves risking failure), rethinking your career/life goals, and/or getting some counseling. 

I doubt you will take my advice above.  If that's the case, I have one other suggestion:  I presume your various businesses are structured in some formal way, as an LLC, corporation, or the like.  Give your company a fancy sounding name like "The Skyhigh Group" or "Skyhigh Capital".  Then, name yourself President or appoint your wife to the board and name yourself CEO.  Have some business cards made with your new title (spend the extra money for engraved cards if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Buy some expensive business suits (spend the extra money for high-end shoes if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Make some donations to the right local charities (As little as $5,000 or $10,000 donation to the local symphony/art museum/children's museum/children's hospital will get your or your company's name on programs, some invitations to events, and give you something to brag about).  Maybe buy a car that quietly says "money" (Toyota Landcruiser and a Mercedes station wagon are both solid choices).  Then go to parties and quietly look down your nose at the other guests.  You'll discover that most people really don't care what you do, but those who are shallow (dare I say bourgeois?) enough to be impressed by things like titles will be impressed.  If your businesses are doing as well as you say, you might want to consider hiring a hard charging young man or woman to do the lawn mowing and painting and learning to manage your businesses while you focus on expansion and making more money.  Then you'd actually be doing the President/CEO work indicated by your business card.  And I'll let you in on a secret:  in America, at the end of the day, most people are more impressed by money than titles. 

BTW,  you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door."  Some of the ideas in the book might help you recognize your own successes, and millionaires who were driven to succeed by childhood poverty and personal insecurity is one of the themes. 

Life is too short to be unhappy, and I think most people on this forum are a lot more interested in hearing from people who can be good examples rather than horrible warnings.  I think you've successfully made your point here; nobody wants to make the mistakes you've made.  It is just that nobody here thinks your real mistakes were about choosing FIRE.

Thank you,

I value every post that is not intended as a low blow. The difference I have with most here is that I enjoyed my career. It was my childhood ambition and goal. Being laid off and forced to FIRE is a defeat for me. I am not proud of the fact that I figured out how to be able to do nothing. FIRE is boring. The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun. It is a fallback position that I expected to recover from. Now it seems that it is for keeps and it makes me sad.

All that being said, I am also an expert at achieving FIRE. My business helps people to accomplish it through real estate investing. I have been living it since 2002 longer than MMM and FS. This is a "post-fire" thread. My experiences have value here. My guess is that most of my detractors here are still trying to achieve FIRE and haven't experienced the issues that I write about.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on January 17, 2022, 05:05:53 PM
Oh, brother.

Skyhigh,

I think I replied to one of your posts a couple of years ago and said what I have to say, but I'm going to give it one more shot. 

Some people on this forum think you are a troll.  I kind of wish you were, because that would be better than your reality.  I think you are a deeply unhappy person who has never been able to get over being laid off from your chosen career path before achieving your goals. 

Most people who achieve difficult goals have failures, but they usually dust themselves off, think hard about how much of the failure was their own fault, and start over again.  Or try something new.  In your messages, I see common themes of blame of industry, company, and economy, ageism, etc. but never any hint that you might bear even a tiny amount of responsibility for losing your position and your inability to gain a new one.  And an absolute refusal to start over again at a lower level to get back on the ladder. 

I also think you have some serious self-esteem issues.  Your continued focus on a career blip decades ago and illusions about the "prestige" of a corporate career rather than pride in building a successful business and raising a happy family is just one example. 

Two things you said in previous posts really leapt out at me: 

"I personally find it embarrassing to be in a room of firefighters, doctors, business professionals, and professors to say that "I mow lawns". My financial situation is probably far better than theirs but it is not interesting either."

"My wife does not care about my elite dreams and also thinks that I am an idiot for pursuing them." 

It is sad that you choose to characterize yourself with "I mow lawns" rather than "I'm a serial entrepreneur/real estate investor/business owner" and even more sad that you are embarrassed to be among your peers.  I also think you should listen to your wife and start pursuing happiness, either by making the sacrifices to follow your dream career (which involves risking failure), rethinking your career/life goals, and/or getting some counseling. 

I doubt you will take my advice above.  If that's the case, I have one other suggestion:  I presume your various businesses are structured in some formal way, as an LLC, corporation, or the like.  Give your company a fancy sounding name like "The Skyhigh Group" or "Skyhigh Capital".  Then, name yourself President or appoint your wife to the board and name yourself CEO.  Have some business cards made with your new title (spend the extra money for engraved cards if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Buy some expensive business suits (spend the extra money for high-end shoes if you want to impress people who know the difference).  Make some donations to the right local charities (As little as $5,000 or $10,000 donation to the local symphony/art museum/children's museum/children's hospital will get your or your company's name on programs, some invitations to events, and give you something to brag about).  Maybe buy a car that quietly says "money" (Toyota Landcruiser and a Mercedes station wagon are both solid choices).  Then go to parties and quietly look down your nose at the other guests.  You'll discover that most people really don't care what you do, but those who are shallow (dare I say bourgeois?) enough to be impressed by things like titles will be impressed.  If your businesses are doing as well as you say, you might want to consider hiring a hard charging young man or woman to do the lawn mowing and painting and learning to manage your businesses while you focus on expansion and making more money.  Then you'd actually be doing the President/CEO work indicated by your business card.  And I'll let you in on a secret:  in America, at the end of the day, most people are more impressed by money than titles. 

BTW,  you might want to read "The Millionaire Next Door."  Some of the ideas in the book might help you recognize your own successes, and millionaires who were driven to succeed by childhood poverty and personal insecurity is one of the themes. 

Life is too short to be unhappy, and I think most people on this forum are a lot more interested in hearing from people who can be good examples rather than horrible warnings.  I think you've successfully made your point here; nobody wants to make the mistakes you've made.  It is just that nobody here thinks your real mistakes were about choosing FIRE.

Thank you,

I value every post that is not intended as a low blow. The difference I have with most here is that I enjoyed my career. It was my childhood ambition and goal. Being laid off and forced to FIRE is a defeat for me. I am not proud of the fact that I figured out how to be able to do nothing. FIRE is boring. The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun. It is a fallback position that I expected to recover from. Now it seems that it is for keeps and it makes me sad.

All that being said, I am also an expert at achieving FIRE. My business helps people to accomplish it through real estate investing. I have been living it since 2002 longer than MMM and FS. This is a "post-fire" thread. My experiences have value here. My guess is that most of my detractors here are still trying to achieve FIRE and haven't experienced the issues that I write about.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 17, 2022, 06:41:21 PM
Quote
The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun.

Can anyone tell me the best kind of work to start after I retire so that I can be retired while working for money?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: bacchi on January 17, 2022, 07:40:07 PM

Another great Retirement movie recommendation

(2015) The Intern - Robert De Nero and Anne Hathaway.

It is a story about an accomplished age-appropriate retiree who goes back to work in an entry-level position. In my opinion, it is a great movie about the benefits of maintaining a purpose and lifelong contribution.

I want my 10 minutes back.
Title: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 17, 2022, 08:56:12 PM
Quote
The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun.

Can anyone tell me the best kind of work to start after I retire so that I can be retired while working for money?


That caught my eye also. This belongs in that thread about only the OP who doesn’t get it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ScreamingHeadGuy on January 17, 2022, 09:26:30 PM

MMM and FS

From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.

Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.

I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.
You are literally the only person here who has argued that retirement = nothingness. We have spent pages now trying to show you that isn’t the case.

Well, my goal is to become one with “nothingness” - but that’s neither here nor there. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FreshlyFIREd on January 18, 2022, 05:33:11 AM

Thank you,

I value every post that is not intended as a low blow. The difference I have with most here is that I enjoyed my career. It was my childhood ambition and goal. Being laid off and forced to FIRE is a defeat for me. I am not proud of the fact that I figured out how to be able to do nothing. FIRE is boring. The work I had to do to remain in FIRE was not fun. It is a fallback position that I expected to recover from. Now it seems that it is for keeps and it makes me sad.

All that being said, I am also an expert at achieving FIRE. My business helps people to accomplish it through real estate investing. I have been living it since 2002 longer than MMM and FS. This is a "post-fire" thread. My experiences have value here. My guess is that most of my detractors here are still trying to achieve FIRE and haven't experienced the issues that I write about.

Your "experience" has little value here. You are confusing "experience" for whining.

I too had unrealized occupational ambitions. There are millions of us. Think about the high probability of occupational failures ... "pro sports athletes", "actors", "students denied access - like medical school". Most of us get back up and dust ourselves off.

The obvious thing that you seem to be missing is that you are allowing your happiness to be controlled by others. If the others are preventing your happiness and joy, you will not listen. The people here are telling you the same thing that the rejection notices are telling you: The big airlines "do not want you".

Don't be the sad "sixty something busboy - cleaning tables", who tells everyone he is an actor. That busboy is a busboy - he is not an actor. I don't care how much he enjoyed the few acting positions he got.

Sky-high ... accept it. You are "fired" or retired, or cutting grass, real estate, or whatever you consider yourself. Quit trying out for the NFL team, they want the youth.

Your opportunity came and went. I accepted my defeats, others have accepted their defeats. Accept it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 18, 2022, 09:11:06 AM

MMM and FS

From my perspective, MMM and Financial Samurai are the same. Neither of them is truly retired in the sense that they do nothing of a financial incentive with their time. It seems like many here consider Retirement as the act of becoming completely idle in regards to income-generating activities.

Both MMM and FS are aggressively working towards multiple income streams. They enjoy automomy of their time, however are both are very employed. MMM flips houses and was a RE broker for a time. They both have rental homes and self-manage them. They both work their blogs and occasionally make TV appearances to promote their websites.

I don't believe that they model the example of nothingness as a virtue yet many here are desperately clinging to it. In my professional life, I work the same processes as MMM and FS. Some here seem to want to paint me as the outsider, however, my belief is that my views are completely in line with MMM and FS.
You are literally the only person here who has argued that retirement = nothingness. We have spent pages now trying to show you that isn’t the case.

Plenty have expressed their desire to burrow into a gopher hole and disappear from the working world completely after FIRE. They want to cease any means of producing an active source of income for themselves and intend to live off their pile of nuts for 45 years or more. In my opinion, that is a very risky venture unless you are able to accumulate a huge pile of nuts that is able to withstand what the future will throw at it. I also believe that it can lead to an unhealthy lifestyle.

The biggest pushback that people have with me is my desire to pursue my career objective after FIRE. I am a massive FIRE heretic because my experience disagrees with the common assumptions of what life in FIRE is. I have lived FIRE for a very long time. The people who I have as clients and colleagues have lived FIRE for a long time also. Some have had the ability to live FIRE for their entire lives. It is not an entirely good thing.

MMM is a great example of a dynamic autonomous FIRE lifestyle that includes work functions and active income streams. He probably works harder now than before FIRE generating content, flipping houses, and so on. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 18, 2022, 09:13:52 AM
One of the things that I enjoy about a forum such as this is that anonymity permits people to speak their truth. A consequence of an anonymous forum, however, is that posters cannot validate their statements since we know very little about each other.

Plenty here have challenged my credibility. It is a natural assumption. I also must create assumptions about many of my detractors here based solely upon your comments and expressed values. My assumptions are as follows.

Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

I come from a different demographic (I am an introvert. A regular one.). It is very possible that Our values and goals are not in alignment. However, it does not mean that I am necessarily wrong or a troll.

It seems to me that a common vision of FIRE here is as a solution to the hardships of life. My purpose here is to share that nothing is either all good or all bad. FIRE comes with many downsides. The hardships don’t go away they just change. FIRE involves risk. The acceptance of risk brings stress. FIRE changes your interface with the world at large. FIRE can be damaging to your EGO. It can lead to loneliness and depression. I know these things because I have lived FIRE for a very long time now. My FIRE colleagues have experienced similar consequences.

My antidote is to never cease your vital contribution to society. Keep trying to achieve your professional goals. You can plan a career change, but don’t retreat into your apartment and close the door to the world. The world needs you and you need it.

The happiest people that I have encountered in the working world are those who don't have to work but still can.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 18, 2022, 09:24:29 AM
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: SailingOnASmallSailboat on January 18, 2022, 09:37:43 AM

The happiest people that I have encountered in the working world are those who don't have to work but still can.

Might be the only thing you've said I agree with. This right here is the joy, IMO, of being FI. It's the choice you have to do whatever you want. The "FU" money. By your own admission after you lost your high-level career track you HAD TO WORK at a profession you still denigrate on the regular. This is neither happy, nor FI. You no longer had the opportunity to work at a job you loved and instead had to scramble to make ends meet, to provide for your family. Good for you to do what needed to be done.

FYI. Me? 52, married, 2 kids. Former teacher and private school administrator. Achieved FI probably 6 years ago; RE a year ago. We also took 2 extended practice runs at the retirement life of our choosing (sailing around on our boat) in our 20s and again in our early 40s.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 18, 2022, 09:43:56 AM
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 18, 2022, 09:51:22 AM
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 18, 2022, 10:06:54 AM
Revision:

I would like to add the following quality to my statement above.

Highly Educated. My assumption is that most here are; Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introverted, Cubicle Jockeys, Not achieved FIRE, and are Highly Educated.

I hold a bachelor's degree however tend heavily toward the working-class side of my personality. College was hard for me. I am more of a hands-on build-it myself kind of person and not cerebral. I have never gotten along well with number squirrels. I like them and admire their abilities but can not relate (obviously). It is probably why I enjoy all of you so much.

My aim is not to seek an echo chamber somewhere else, but an exchange with those who are not from my background. Many here are technology elites and I am a laborer. We see the world differently.

That being said, FIRE is a well-established tradition in the working class. We cant get fancy computer programming jobs that provide a surplus of income to save. Our approach to FIRE is to build something to get us there. We are plumbers, electritians, carpenters, general contractors, farmers, mechanics, long-haul truckers, and so on. The pattern is to open your own shop, hire others, and then do what you want. 

It is not the same as "discovering" frugality and squirreling away surplus income and then obsessing over it. I am trying to learn though. And, you all have a lot to learn from me.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 18, 2022, 10:07:59 AM
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.

I am FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 18, 2022, 10:13:44 AM
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.

I am FIRE.

you dont have time to read and respond to post b/c you have a business to run and a job to work

YOU ARE NOT FIRE
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ixtap on January 18, 2022, 10:21:08 AM
Boy, you must be a real bundle of joy if you make a habit of spouting off and making assumptions without making time to get to know the people you are spouting at.

No one is mad that you choose to work. There is even a name for that around here that includes the word "satisfied." You seem very unsatisfied and intent on telling other people that they can't possibly be satisfied, either.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 18, 2022, 10:23:01 AM
Highly Educated. My assumption is that most here are; Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introverted, Cubicle Jockeys, Not achieved FIRE, and are Highly Educated.

I hold a bachelor's degree however tend heavily toward the working-class side of my personality. College was hard for me. I am more of a hands-on build-it myself kind of person and not cerebral. I have never gotten along well with number squirrels. I like them and admire their abilities but can not relate (obviously). It is probably why I enjoy all of you so much.

My aim is not to seek an echo chamber somewhere else, but an exchange with those who are not from my background. Many here are technology elites and I am a laborer. We see the world differently.

That being said, FIRE is a well-established tradition in the working class. We cant get fancy computer programming jobs that provide a surplus of income to save. Our approach to FIRE is to build something to get us there. We are plumbers, electritians, carpenters, general contractors, farmers, mechanics, long-haul truckers, and so on. The pattern is to open your own shop, hire others, and then do what you want. 

It is not the same as "discovering" frugality and squirreling away surplus income and then obsessing over it. I am trying to learn though. And, you all have a lot to learn from me.

Married, Over 40, No Children (not by choice), Extroverted, Home Office, ~70% to currently planned trajectory of FIRE, College dropout.

Always some shade of frugal, but never any kind of extreme.

It's hard to tell what we can learn from you, because you have a different set of vocabulary that you use from what everyone here uses.

FIRE, to us, means you have carefully figured out how you can life your desired lifestyle based on investments only, with no mandatory work of any kind. From there, you are not constrained in what you do. You may choose to further whatever aspirations you have. Some kind of career ambitions. Some kind of manual labor. Sweat equity. Leisure. Up to you. There is never "work you must do to remain financially independent and retired early." There is only what you choose to do. There is nothing forced upon you.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 18, 2022, 10:29:01 AM
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.

I am FIRE.

you dont have time to read and respond to post b/c you have a business to run and a job to work

YOU ARE NOT FIRE
FI perhaps, but not RE.

***
This throws reminds me of something I’ve seen floating around in groups of people with young kids. It is a tweet that says something like:

“If you’re wondering what things are like for parents right now, someone in my online moms group invited everyone to a Facebook event that is just going to an empty field and screaming and a LOT of people  RSVPed yes.”

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220118/a9a935495207c6f6670b1763ffe7029f.jpg)


This thread reminds me of frustrating conversations with my toddler where I try to reason with someone who literally hasn’t developed the mental capacity for logical thought yet.

How many times do I have to repeat myself that we aren’t eating cookies for breakfast?

How many times have we clarified that FIRE isn’t a career or a means to support one’s family, that working to put a roof over your head isn’t FIRE, that FIRE doesn’t mean sitting around at home doing nothing and contributing nothing?

Cookies still aren’t on the menu no matter how many times you ask. Sorry, kid.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DadJokes on January 18, 2022, 10:46:54 AM
And, you all have a lot to learn from me.

After 11 pages of this thread, I'm going to have to disagree with that.


This thread reminds me of frustrating conversations with my toddler where I try to reason with someone who literally hasn’t developed the mental capacity for logical thought yet.

How many times do I have to repeat myself that we aren’t eating cookies for breakfast?

I take those two statements personally. My three-year-old child exhibits more logical thought than I've seen from OP, and I absolutely eat cookies for breakfast if they're available.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: bacchi on January 18, 2022, 12:31:50 PM
Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115 (http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115)

Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.

FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.

Quote from: retired_syd
If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.
Title: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 18, 2022, 12:46:26 PM
It takes creativity and introspection. It takes a backbone to be willing to buck trends and forge your own path (or just not care as much what others think). Other bloggers like LivingAFI have talked about how it can be hard to pull the plug and face the hard work of figuring it what really makes you tick and how you want to spend your limited time on this earth. In some ways it is easier to just put one foot in front of the other and stick to the script of what society expects of you.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on January 18, 2022, 01:20:22 PM
Retired Syd!  Loved her blog!  So many great insights about the psychology of retirement.  Last post March 2020 because she's living her awesome life, I hope. https://retiredsyd.typepad.com/retirement_a_fulltime_job/

Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115 (http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115)

Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.

FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.

Quote from: retired_syd
If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 18, 2022, 01:31:25 PM
Right. Going against the social gradient is hard and uncomfortable. Being FIRE at an early age may create an environment of isolation if you let it due to this fact. But the key thing is if you let it. An individual is now more than ever responsible for setting the beat of their own drum and marching to it when they FIRE.

BTW
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

Not quite. Married, Exactly 40, Working on it, semi-introverted, 60% Cube Jockey/40% wrench turner, FI not yet RE
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 18, 2022, 05:00:32 PM
Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115 (http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115)

Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.

FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.

Quote from: retired_syd
If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.
OMG, I love love love RetiredSyd! She used to have a fantastic blog, but her postings have dwindled to nothing. Still good content there.

https://retiredsyd.typepad.com/retirement_a_fulltime_job/

Glad to know she's still doing her thing.
 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 18, 2022, 05:05:27 PM
Single/Unmarried, Over 40, No children, Super Introvert, Cubicle Jockey, Not achieved FIRE

If you had spent any time on these forums at all reading  beyond your own babble you would know that many, if not most, of those of us who have bothered to engage with you  on this thread are nowhere near that description.

Me?  Married, 53, two kids, fairly introverted (but I love engaging with  people on line at my own pace), former expat non-profit manager, achieved FIRE at 46.

So you got the over 40 and kind of the introverted piece right.

But my form of introversion does NOT mean I huddle in my miserable hovel alone counting  my pennies.  I do need to push myself a bit to get out and  be social in real life.  And I am working on doing that in a more structured/disciplined way this year (Covid permitting).

I also "failed" at a couple of major professional goals. Went into grad school certain I would become a college professor.  But the job market was horrible and my personal circumstances (married a fellow student who worked with the same advisor) meant it would have been difficult for us to get two academic jobs near each other. So we went into non-profit work.  Then I got promotion opportunities cut off twice by a pretty thick and unfair glass ceiling.  By the time the second one happened, we had enough to FIRE.  And it has been great.  I actually got called about possibly going back to the last org about a year ago for another interim director position. Happily said thanks but no thanks!  Fool me once, shame on  you, fool me twice, shame on me.

Anyway, your read on who is engaging you about this ideas is just as off as your read on why you are not getting the professional or social networking opportunities you so desire.

Thank you. :) I wish I could spend all day reading posts and diving into all the threads here, but alas, I have a business to run and job to work. I do however enjoy the time I have here and learn a lot from interesting people such as yourself. I am currently in college finishing my certified financial planner training.

great so you're not FIRE stop saying its awful.

for what its worth i'm married, 35, 2 children, super extrovert, achieved FI - RE is tomorrow. 

great job not actually learning about anyone here thru staying confined to your thread.

I am FIRE.

you dont have time to read and respond to post b/c you have a business to run and a job to work

YOU ARE NOT FIRE
FI perhaps, but not RE.

***
This throws reminds me of something I’ve seen floating around in groups of people with young kids. It is a tweet that says something like:

“If you’re wondering what things are like for parents right now, someone in my online moms group invited everyone to a Facebook event that is just going to an empty field and screaming and a LOT of people  RSVPed yes.”

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220118/a9a935495207c6f6670b1763ffe7029f.jpg)


This thread reminds me of frustrating conversations with my toddler where I try to reason with someone who literally hasn’t developed the mental capacity for logical thought yet.

How many times do I have to repeat myself that we aren’t eating cookies for breakfast?

How many times have we clarified that FIRE isn’t a career or a means to support one’s family, that working to put a roof over your head isn’t FIRE, that FIRE doesn’t mean sitting around at home doing nothing and contributing nothing?

Cookies still aren’t on the menu no matter how many times you ask. Sorry, kid.

The OP isn't even FI, much less RE. He's stated multiple times that he has enough money to never work again, but only if he didn't have a family to support and wanted to be an antisocial hermit (ie, squirreling away in a one-bedroom apartment and living off his pile of nuts) who never did anything or went anywhere.

And he thinks that is what everyone on this forum is doing or planning to do, because he hasn't bothered to read any of it because he's too busy working.  You see?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: LD_TAndK on January 20, 2022, 06:32:45 AM
Relevant -

http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115 (http://lackingambition.com/?p=1115)

Words and eventually insults were exchanged in the comments to that lackingambition post.

FS, plain and simple, doesn't understand those who don't want to achieve something in the corporate world. Work -- the corporate kind, with a boss and HR department -- is the be-all and end-all for FS. Retired Syd made an important point there.

Quote from: retired_syd
If you are addicted to achievement, it’s much harder to accomplish in retirement, where YOU choose the things you want to achieve (rather than being told what to achieve.) That takes creativity.

Highly recommend people read the article and all the comments. They're talking past one another but I found it enlightening to what's happening here.

Also, Financial Samurai sells a $97 e-book? (https://www.e-junkie.com/ecom/gb.php?c=cart&i=1119207&cl=158671&ejc=2)?? Sleazy self-help guru vibes to the max.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 20, 2022, 08:58:48 AM
Severity of FIRE

I have a college friend who achieved fire at 45 years of age. Throughout his adult life he had been married twice and experienced the normal ups and downs. When I last spoke with him he was engaged to a beautiful intelligent accomplished person. His construction business was taking off incredibly. He had built himself a very nice house in an upper middle-class neighborhood. He had finally found success and was on his way.

I lost touch with him for a time. I tried reaching out via his cell phone to learn that it was disconnected. I sent a letter to his home, and it was returned. He had disappeared from the Internet. I couldn't find his business license, address, or any other evidence that he still existed. Eventually, I sent a letter to his sister and she sent a reply.

It turns out that my dear friend had done something dramatic soon after I last spoke with him. For reasons only known to him, he broke off his engagement, closed his booming business, and systematically sold off all of his assets. He choose to FIRE in a halfway house located in one of the desert states far from his home. Every month $500 is auto drafted from his account and sent to the organization that maintains a bunk bed, food, and some medical oversight.

He spends his days wandering the streets intoxicated. At night he returns to the halfway house. Why he chose this life I will probably never know. Clearly his plan was/is to consume his days in this manner until he has expired. He chose an alcoholic version of FIRE instead of his blooming full and successful life.

Any one of us could achieve FIRE right now. The question is what is your FIRE life going to look like? How much risk are you willing to accept? How long will it last? What is the level of severity are you willing to accept or be exposed to? I'm certain that my friend does not plan to live very long in retirement. He chose a reduced duration of his retirement through his lifestyle choices. The tragedy of my lost friend is something I will probably never understand.

People achieve FIRE all the time. It is mostly about the sacrifices.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 20, 2022, 09:06:07 AM


I believe that MMM retired on $25,000 long ago, however, how can you believe that he isn't earning much more now through his website, appearances, and accomplishments? He is not a Buddhist monk. The same with FS. They both hold control over their time but they both clearly work.

The guy who started the tiny house movement began his blog from a 150 square foot "house" built upon a flatbed trailer but ended up moving into a regular home because living in a tiny house was an unsustainable model. He got married and they started having children. Lives change. Harsh FIRE plans can not.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 20, 2022, 09:14:43 AM
It makes my stomach turn that you would use a story like this solely to push your own twisted narrative of how awful FIRE is.

Your "friend" did not achieve FIRE.  He clearly had some kind of breakdown, and that was most likely rooted in some type of major trauma or pain that all of his "success" did not allow him to outrun.  Maybe if you had been a real friend to him, someone he could turn to to be truthful and vulnerable when he discovered that all his striving was not bringing him the happiness he desired, maybe then he could have found a different way out of his pain.  I wonder how much all of the praise you and others gave him for achieving the outward appearances of a "successful" person actually drove him to even deeper despair.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 20, 2022, 09:16:37 AM


I know that you guys get frustrated with me due to my lack of responses. I only have perhaps 20 minutes in the morning before I have other things to focus on. My apologies.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 20, 2022, 09:20:09 AM
Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house.  Not fire

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 20, 2022, 09:39:24 AM
Severity of FIRE

I have a college friend who achieved fire at 45 years of age. Throughout his adult life he had been married twice and experienced the normal ups and downs. When I last spoke with him he was engaged to a beautiful intelligent accomplished person. His construction business was taking off incredibly. He had built himself a very nice house in an upper middle-class neighborhood. He had finally found success and was on his way.

I lost touch with him for a time. I tried reaching out via his cell phone to learn that it was disconnected. I sent a letter to his home, and it was returned. He had disappeared from the Internet. I couldn't find his business license, address, or any other evidence that he still existed. Eventually, I sent a letter to his sister and she sent a reply.

It turns out that my dear friend had done something dramatic soon after I last spoke with him. For reasons only known to him, he broke off his engagement, closed his booming business, and systematically sold off all of his assets. He choose to FIRE in a halfway house located in one of the desert states far from his home. Every month $500 is auto drafted from his account and sent to the organization that maintains a bunk bed, food, and some medical oversight.

He spends his days wandering the streets intoxicated. At night he returns to the halfway house. Why he chose this life I will probably never know. Clearly his plan was/is to consume his days in this manner until he has expired. He chose an alcoholic version of FIRE instead of his blooming full and successful life.

Any one of us could achieve FIRE right now. The question is what is your FIRE life going to look like? How much risk are you willing to accept? How long will it last? What is the level of severity are you willing to accept or be exposed to? I'm certain that my friend does not plan to live very long in retirement. He chose a reduced duration of his retirement through his lifestyle choices. The tragedy of my lost friend is something I will probably never understand.

People achieve FIRE all the time. It is mostly about the sacrifices.

It isn't about sacrifice. It's about kennen (shamelessly stolen from Jacob at ERE and is the German word for "to know in a familiar way") in regards to the life you want and how much that will cost. You're right that someone can buy a tent, a hatchet, and some booze and walk off into the woods and be "FIRE" their skill sets would have to be quite broad and robust in order to pull it off but it is possible.

More than likely some people are realizing that beyond the first few levels of Mazlow's hierarchy of needs capitalist society doesn't provide much for the top end. It seems that you'd probably disagree and find that identity and self actualization within a corporate society. Many people don't. So they pursue their yum elsewhere.

Your friend broke. That's it. He didn't FIRE and your deliberate twisting isn't a fair engagement in the conversation.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 20, 2022, 10:03:20 AM
It's a blatant misunderstanding of cause and effect.

Friend breaks, sells/quits everything, severs relationships, and then lives in an unemployed manner where costs are low, but so is quality of life.

To somehow blame the choices he made on being "financially independent, retiring early" is completely nonsensical.

The egg didn't lay the chicken.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 20, 2022, 10:27:12 AM
I think you meant "vein", but "vain" kind of works, too...
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 21, 2022, 08:44:08 AM
The case for affluent FIRE

A budget is like going on a financial diet. It is necessary initially to attain financial health however most are unable to maintain the restrictions indefinitely. Humans tend not to do well when faced with unlimited artificial restrictions such as a harsh budget. We have good days and bad. Eventually, someone will come home with a $300 jacket. When the budgeters are married that means the risk of failure is doubled since there are now two people in this equation that share equal responsibility.

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend. On paper, I'm sure it looks feasible and maybe even survivable in the short term. However, it should not be planned to last forever. Eventually, someone will crack. Someone else on this thread made the comment that fire does not have to be so anemic. FIRE should probably be pursued to a healthy financial level. Squirreling away a small pile of nuts and expecting to feed off of that for 40 or more years is an unlikely and grim prospect from my perspective. A great way to extend the life of that plan is to continue working at something.

Our mentor MMM is a great example of how to live active FIRE. He does not sit patiently at home counting the days until he can withdraw his next meager monthly portion. He is out there trying to improve his financial situation. A better approach to FIRE is to combine frugality with active financial pursuits (work) in hopes of ensuring an increasing budget and then a more active successful life in FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DadJokes on January 21, 2022, 08:47:23 AM

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 21, 2022, 08:54:32 AM

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

And literally no made the case against an affluent FIRE. The whole forum is premised on planning for a retirement based on desired spending levels. People are encouraged to cut pointless spending, not live in poverty.

These problems are in your head, not on this board.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 21, 2022, 09:04:53 AM

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

FIREd 2 days ago with an 90k planned spend and due to some FIRE hobbies we'll have a WR sub 3%.

Also we're a family of 4 with kids 1 and 3 and I'm an extrovert.

Basically everything you're presuppositing is incorrect.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 21, 2022, 09:28:24 AM
From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”


Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 21, 2022, 09:30:30 AM
Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house.  Not fire

I disagree, my friend made the same choice as many of you to intentionally abandon a productive life for a self-centered meager existence. He achieved FIRE and is living it in his way.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 21, 2022, 09:30:41 AM
Yeah I'd say this forum has an opposite problem to what you are saying. Many people here are profligate spenders and probably don't question their spending within the context of weighing what makes them happy versus what is good for the world/community/long term survival of humans/long term survival of the earth.

I'd argue many more people stop very quickly at the what makes me happy and set their sights on that rather than these restrictive statements you seem to perceive. Do you have solid examples of what you are talking about?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 21, 2022, 09:53:16 AM
Not frustrated by lack of responses, frustrated by lack of critical thinking on your part. Your buddy didn't retire. He's a non-functional alcoholic living in a halfway house.  Not fire

I disagree, my friend made the same choice as many of you to intentionally abandon a productive life for a self-centered meager existence. He achieved FIRE and is living it in his way.

No, he has a disease and is unable to function, and no one is proposing this type of existence anywhere on this forum. If you can't see the difference, you are not thinking critically, either by obstinance or you don't have the capacity.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: bacchi on January 21, 2022, 10:34:37 AM
Yeah I'd say this forum has an opposite problem to what you are saying. Many people here are profligate spenders and probably don't question their spending within the context of weighing what makes them happy versus what is good for the world/community/long term survival of humans/long term survival of the earth.

I'd argue many more people stop very quickly at the what makes me happy and set their sights on that rather than these restrictive statements you seem to perceive. Do you have solid examples of what you are talking about?

boarder42 literally just wrote that he'll be spending only $90k! He probably doesn't even have a 2nd home on the beach either.

If that's not leanFIRE, I don't know what is.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 21, 2022, 10:47:36 AM
I know that you guys get frustrated with me due to my lack of responses. I only have perhaps 20 minutes in the morning before I have other things to focus on. My apologies.
If you were really FIRE, you could spend as much time as you want on the internet, or anywhere you please.

It seems you rarely venture outside your journal to help anyone else, either. Though, perhaps it's best that your viewpoints are voluntarily self-contained.

I think for most self-enlightened mustachians who really, truly want(ed) to help, this thread has just become a source of bewildered amusement and perhaps a little conversation amongst ourselves. No need to apologize, we're fine.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 21, 2022, 11:02:33 AM

Plenty here have proposed to FIRE on an incredibly slim stipend.

Literally no one in this thread has proposed that.

Now the OP is simply gaslighting.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 21, 2022, 11:42:47 AM
this thread has just become a source of bewildered amusement and perhaps a little conversation amongst ourselves

How did you figure me out?!

Quote
Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.

Employment is one of many powerful financial tools. If you lack the understanding necessary to utilize other tools, including investments with safe withdrawal rates, you need to learn that before you can preach to anyone here that has already figured that part out.

The life that people want may or may not include remaining employed and as such, if you educate yourself on how other financial tools work, you can move on from that tool (one that requires trading your precious time for money) on to using tools that put your assets to work for you, and let you build the life that you want spending your time exactly as you determine is best for you.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FIRE 20/20 on January 21, 2022, 11:58:20 AM

The biggest pushback that people have with me is my desire to pursue my career objective after FIRE. 

No.  The biggest pushback is that you are talking without listening.  Yes, the FIRE pitfalls you highlight are possible, but by listening to the lessons of others on this forum they can all be avoided.

You say FIRE means doing nothing.  I am FIREd and I am far more active than I was when I was working.  My working life was walking from cubicle to meeting room and back.  I now walk from forest to mountain top.
You say FIRE is boring.  My FIREd life is exhilarating.  I find new and exciting things to do every day, I travel all over the world (when there isn't a pandemic), I am developing new skills and making new friends.
You talk about living off a "pile of nuts", or an "incredibly slim stipend".  I spend as much as I want and yet my investments would allow me to spend double what I am spending now.  But my life is so fulfilling I can't imagine what I could spend more money on.  I donate thousands of dollars to charity because I have too much money to spend on myself and my family in one lifetime.  I could literally light $1,000 a week on fire just to watch it burn and I still would never run out of money. 
You say FIRE can damage my EGO, and causes loneliness and depression.  I was diagnosed with clinical depression at age 14 and lived with it until about a year before FIRE.  Since FIRE I have been off my old depression meds and am happier than I've ever been.  I spend more time with friends and family, so I am less lonely.  My EGO was never associated with my job but with my contributions to the lives of those around me.  I am now able to contribute more to the lives of my friends, family, and community so my EGO is better than ever.
You say we are "depressed cubicle dwellers".  I had a fulfilling career that allowed me to make a difference in many people's lives.  I had great managers and co-workers.  But the freedom to travel the world, spend more time with friends and family, learn new and exciting things, help people through volunteering, and live a full life was a vision better than the best job in the world.  The 3 years I've been FIREd have been better than the best vision I had of FIRE. 

The frustrating thing is that I'm not special in any way.  I learned about many of these possibilities by reading what other people posted here and on other FIRE blogs.  Because I listened and learned from them I was able to construct a full life that would make almost anyone happy, and with more financial security than any job can provide.  You are here.  You found a place that has many of the keys to your best possible life.  You can do the same thing, but only if you listen to the people who have gone before and already created a map to avoid the pitfalls you highlight.  The map is right in front of you but you won't look at it.  That's the horrible tragedy of this thread.  If you would just *read* your best life would be available to you.  But instead of reading you try to tell everyone that the wonderful FIREd life they're actually living isn't really there.  It's just so tragic.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Wolfpack Mustachian on January 21, 2022, 12:22:20 PM
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 21, 2022, 04:14:02 PM
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 21, 2022, 04:18:57 PM
Another HORRIBLE day in my FIRED life:

Today is the first in a good stretch of sunny days, which those of us in Seattle know to seize on while they last this time of year.  I already got my first tray of late winter/early spring seeds sown yesterday during a break in the rain, so since I had a couple of books on hold at the library I decided to walk there and enjoy the sun.  It is a 3 mile walk that takes about an hour even if I add in an extra off-trail/hilly bit, which I did today to push myself a bit.  Listened to a favorite old album (Indigo Girls)  on the  way and Spotify fed me some nice stuff by a few artists I hadn't heard of after -- love finding new music!

Dropped off the book I needed to return and picked up my two holds, then went upstairs  to the cafe/public seating area to  grab a light lunch while reading one of the books.  I did bring a Starbucks gift card along, but decided to spend my lunch money at the cafe because they are a local business that I want to support/keep going during these challenging times.  My food choice wasn't  expensive so it was easy to decide to leave a 25% tip.  I was happy to snag one of the few small tables next to the windows and got a bit of extra sun while I enjoyed  my lunch -- a beef and onion hand pie that had the most amazing rich crust! 

Got to the bus stop and realized when pulling my bus pass out that my library card wasn't in my wallet.  Walked back to the library but nobody had turned  it in.  No big, signed up for a new one.  Had a leisurely bus ride home, no need to stress about delayed connections because my time is my own. 

It's my turn to make dinner tonight so I'm going to try that feta/tomato pasta bake thing that was apparently all the rage on tik tok a few weeks back.  I have feta we should use  up and  just  got a bunch of semi-dehydrated tomatoes from the garden  out of the freezer, along with some  bread for  garlic bread.  DS (tech worker who at age 20 already has a pretty good grasp of the importance of work/life balance) just came over to go on a bike ride with his Dad (also FIREd) -- they usually bike together 2-3x/week when the weather permits.  He'll stay for dinner after.  It's nice when your teen/young adult kids actually enjoy hanging out for dinner with the  family!

Oh, I guess I forgot to moan and groan about how miserable and miserly our FIREd lifestyle is.  Too busy enjoying it, I guess.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 21, 2022, 05:56:11 PM
Another HORRIBLE day in my FIRED life:

Today is the first in a good stretch of sunny days, which those of us in Seattle know to seize on while they last this time of year.  I already got my first tray of late winter/early spring seeds sown yesterday during a break in the rain, so since I had a couple of books on hold at the library I decided to walk there and enjoy the sun.  It is a 3 mile walk that takes about an hour even if I add in an extra off-trail/hilly bit, which I did today to push myself a bit.  Listened to a favorite old album (Indigo Girls)  on the  way and Spotify fed me some nice stuff by a few artists I hadn't heard of after -- love finding new music!

Dropped off the book I needed to return and picked up my two holds, then went upstairs  to the cafe/public seating area to  grab a light lunch while reading one of the books.  I did bring a Starbucks gift card along, but decided to spend my lunch money at the cafe because they are a local business that I want to support/keep going during these challenging times.  My food choice wasn't  expensive so it was easy to decide to leave a 25% tip.  I was happy to snag one of the few small tables next to the windows and got a bit of extra sun while I enjoyed  my lunch -- a beef and onion hand pie that had the most amazing rich crust! 

Got to the bus stop and realized when pulling my bus pass out that my library card wasn't in my wallet.  Walked back to the library but nobody had turned  it in.  No big, signed up for a new one.  Had a leisurely bus ride home, no need to stress about delayed connections because my time is my own. 

It's my turn to make dinner tonight so I'm going to try that feta/tomato pasta bake thing that was apparently all the rage on tik tok a few weeks back.  I have feta we should use  up and  just  got a bunch of semi-dehydrated tomatoes from the garden  out of the freezer, along with some  bread for  garlic bread.  DS (tech worker who at age 20 already has a pretty good grasp of the importance of work/life balance) just came over to go on a bike ride with his Dad (also FIREd) -- they usually bike together 2-3x/week when the weather permits.  He'll stay for dinner after.  It's nice when your teen/young adult kids actually enjoy hanging out for dinner with the  family!

Oh, I guess I forgot to moan and groan about how miserable and miserly our FIREd lifestyle is.  Too busy enjoying it, I guess.
I walked to the library today also, with my husband. :) You’ve got me thinking now that we should be putting seeds in the ground. I mentioned it to my husband and he was surprised because he thought it was early. Got to check the planting calendar.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 21, 2022, 06:19:35 PM
The only thing I planted directly was some arugula -  the rest went into seed trays that go on my little heat mat in the mini-greenhouse!  I  am going to experiment with some older flower seeds, though. Some (like echinacea) need a period of cold before they will germinate.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 21, 2022, 06:39:49 PM
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 21, 2022, 07:56:26 PM
I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

skyhigh = Colin Robinson?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUzcO-Jtk70

"They called me a dumbass."
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: alm0stk00l on January 21, 2022, 11:22:46 PM
I accidentally responded to this troll several pages ago... is there a way to make this thread stop showing up in my "Show new replies to your posts" section?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 22, 2022, 04:30:55 AM
I'm not sure but I think you'd have to delete your posts from the thread.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: herbgeek on January 22, 2022, 05:29:05 AM
Quote
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

Another New Englander here.  In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter:  1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke   amazon link to book:  https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3

2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 22, 2022, 06:46:49 AM
Quote
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

Another New Englander here.  In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter:  1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke   amazon link to book:  https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3

2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.

Thanks I'll look into that. I'm pretty small scale at this time. Just three beds in the back. I don't have a greenhouse yet because I haven't planned out where to put it. Doing some fruit and nut trees in the front yard this year to get some peaches and hazelnuts.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 22, 2022, 06:50:29 AM
Quote
I'm in New England and the thought of starting anything is mind boggling.

Another New Englander here.  In an effort to get my hands in soil, I do 2 things in the winter:  1) indoor salad gardening following the general idea presented in Indoor Salad Gardening by Peter Burke   amazon link to book:  https://www.amazon.com/Year-Round-Indoor-Salad-Gardening-Nutrient-Dense/dp/1603586156/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1RRC2D8N7GU77&keywords=indoor+salad+gardening+book&qid=1642854507&sprefix=inddor+salad+gardening%2Caps%2C1196&sr=8-3

2) winter sowing where perennials are started in gallon milk jugs and placed outside to naturally freeze/thaw and germinate when the time is ready which saves space in the greenhouse for plants that need to be babied, as well as annuals.

I’m in northern NE - my temperature sensor currently reads -4ºF (-20ºC). Even freeze-tolerant perennials tend to die in containers at these temps. Maybe in another 8-10 weeks….
Thankfully I’ve got my indoor plantings
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 22, 2022, 09:12:06 AM
Eliot Coleman's winter gardening book is another great resource -- oriented more toward the market gardener, but lots of useful info for us amateurs,too

https://www.chelseagreen.com/product/the-winter-harvest-handbook/

This book is where I learned about how plants basically shut down growth when the level of daylight dips below 10 hours/day.  So I don't expect much between about mid-November and mid-February in my location.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: NotJen on January 22, 2022, 09:13:25 AM
skyhigh = Colin Robinson?

100%
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 22, 2022, 09:54:52 AM
The egg didn't lay the chicken.
Speaking of eggs and chickens, SH glosses over the fact that he has a huge family and the costs involved in the choices he's made. Nothing wrong with having a large family*, but own it, man. Kids cost a metric fuckton of money. SH made choices that require a shitload more money than average.

*Leaving aside some obvious environmental factors for the sake of making this point.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: herbgeek on January 22, 2022, 01:19:43 PM
Quote
Even freeze-tolerant perennials tend to die in containers at these temps.

I'm planting seeds when I winter sow.  They don't germinate until at least April.  Its just a way for me to get dirt under my fingernails.   I do the planting inside, then put the jugs outside for the winter.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 25, 2022, 08:45:28 AM
Government-sponsored FIRE

I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life.  At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.

Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.

Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)

Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.

I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 25, 2022, 08:47:05 AM
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
Unfortunately @Skyhigh won't answer any of those questions. Others have asked him and .... crickets. I'm curious myself but realize he won't respond. Frustrating.  At least some good threads and discussions  have been spawned from this thread about how great retiring early can be.

I am sorry for my lack of a timely response. I do have a life outside of this forum and professional obligations. However, I will do my best.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on January 25, 2022, 08:57:46 AM
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.
Unfortunately @Skyhigh won't answer any of those questions. Others have asked him and .... crickets. I'm curious myself but realize he won't respond. Frustrating.  At least some good threads and discussions  have been spawned from this thread about how great retiring early can be.

I am sorry for my lack of a timely response. I do have a life outside of this forum and professional obligations. However, I will do my best.

Your lack of response is not due to lack of time. It's due to you refusing to engage with anything you don't agree with. Case in point.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 25, 2022, 09:07:58 AM
The egg didn't lay the chicken.
Speaking of eggs and chickens, SH glosses over the fact that he has a huge family and the costs involved in the choices he's made. Nothing wrong with having a large family*, but own it, man. Kids cost a metric fuckton of money. SH made choices that require a shitload more money than average.

*Leaving aside some obvious environmental factors for the sake of making this point.

I believe that having children helps with FIRE. The Financial Samurai has a great article regarding the effect. My explanation is that the responsibility of having to provide for so many children focuses one's drive and efforts. Plenty of others who also have large families have been able to achieve an advantaged position in life out of the necessity that is created by having so many. The responsibility really pushes you to achieve more. The example that I am trying to provide for my adult children is also a motivator. I really feel that FIRE is something that appeals to single people more. However, it often takes the purpose created by having children in order to achieve the financial resources to FIRE. The irony is that you will not want to retire.

I agree, however, that it is much harder with a lot of kids. In my case, our first child spent some time in daycare while we both were still working wage slave jobs. After I was laid off my wife remained at home and worked a side business of hers while I built our real estate investment portfolio. The remaining children have never known daycare or even a babysitter. Thanks to FIRE one of us has been with them every day until school age.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 25, 2022, 09:15:51 AM
After reading this thread,  I'm not entirely sure I understand the main point of your problem with FIRE.

You keep referring to living off a small amount.  How much do you feel would be small? If you could FIRE on greater than that number would you be OK with that?

Are you primarily concerned with risk? If so,  if you inherited,  say, 5 million dollars,  would that alleviate your risk concerns? Is there any number that would?

You talk about concepts like fulfillment.  If you had something else that you were passionate about and could now pursue because you had all the time in the world before you died (mentoring teenagers,  building houses for the homeless,  etc. ) would that alleviate your concerns about fulfillment.

I'm not sure if you'll answer these,  but if you want to communicate your point, you have to communicate specifics of what your concerns are.

I believe that it takes an active source of income in order to FIRE and that no one should ever feel completely safe from the things that life can throw at us. Most people get bored in retirement. It can take a lot of resources to participate in certain hobbies. Five Million for a single person is more reasonable. Plenty here are proposing to FIRE on a million dollars when only 35 years of age. A lot can go wrong with that much time and youthful opportunity.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 25, 2022, 09:36:41 AM
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

I understand that you don't want your idealistic image of FIRE altered. I have spent my adult life experiencing different aspects of FIRE and believe that it is important to share. If you notice, I do not comment on threads other than this one and real estate investing. My purpose is so that you can easily avoid my concepts if you so choose.

I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.

I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 25, 2022, 09:36:54 AM

I believe that it takes an active source of income in order to FIRE

Basically this statement boils down to "I don't believe FIRE is possible". 

Active income is broadly categorized as "work". 

"Needing to Work" is diametrically opposed to being "Retired"

Again: you are using definitions and characterizations that no one else here uses.  Ergo, we cannot have a productive conversation.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 25, 2022, 09:53:46 AM
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on January 25, 2022, 09:55:45 AM
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.

Truth. This thread is inadvertently one of the strongest advertisements in favor of FIRE I've seen in a long time.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: DaMa on January 25, 2022, 09:59:46 AM
I've learned a lot here keep up the good work.

^^This!

I was considering deleting my posts so I wouldn't follow this thread anymore.  Then I realized I don't even pay attention to SH's posts.  All the others are a gold mine of information on the psychology of FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 25, 2022, 10:02:34 AM
Among the incorrect assumptions, there are a few things this keeps boiling down to

Quote
The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.

Someone isn't capable of pushing themselves in a way that results in meaningful growth. Only by being responsible to others, and offloading the burden of creating purpose do they feel life is worth living.

This isn't about FIRE, but about one person's search for meaning. They incorrectly attribute the cause of their personal struggles, and try to find ways to argue their misguided point.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 25, 2022, 11:52:31 AM
What you are saying is that people who are extrinsically motivated will have a harder time in FIRE. Probably true. But have you considered intrinsically motivated people? Or people who go from extrinsic to intrinsic?


Government-sponsored FIRE

I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life.  At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.

Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.

Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)

Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.

I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile. 


By your own definition you are saying she's not FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: hooplady on January 25, 2022, 01:20:04 PM
I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.

I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
The fact that he couldn't find any value or fulfillment in volunteer opportunities is the most puzzling. So what if the duty is putting away folding chairs or filling juice cups? If it's in support of an organization or cause that one feels passionate about, it matters. Apparently he is too good for these menial tasks.  In contrast, I volunteer for the local animal shelter. Some volunteers are retired, some fit it in before or after work. What this means is that I know lots of people who literally find joy and fulfillment in PICKING UP POOP. We also do fun stuff like washing and folding laundry and cleaning the cat kennels.

I have to wonder if he was asked to step down or diverted from other jobs because of his attitude. We've certainly seen countless examples here, I can only imagine that he conveys the same personality in real life.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 25, 2022, 04:52:52 PM
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

I understand that you don't want your idealistic image of FIRE altered. I have spent my adult life experiencing different aspects of FIRE and believe that it is important to share. If you notice, I do not comment on threads other than this one and real estate investing. My purpose is so that you can easily avoid my concepts if you so choose.

I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.

I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
I’m sorry that your life has turned out so disappointing to you. Personally I think you have accomplished a lot and should be proud of yourself and what you have done. It is a waste to sit around chewing endlessly at “what ifs” instead of living a great life now. It’s not like griping is making your life more fulfilling. You’ve tried hard to rain on our parade but the likes of us in this forum are a stubborn lot and we will continue to enjoy the FIRE life. If things go south financially then we will activate some of our several contingency plans (rent out unused space, cut back spending, take on a bit of part time work, etc.).

Breathe. It will be okay.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 25, 2022, 05:02:27 PM
To summarize @Skyhigh has literally done absolutely everything we all do/plan to do in retirement and he wants us to know how miserable every single one of those options are. Despite having never actually FIREd bc he's always had active income.   

He hates everything in life except the idea of a job he had forever ago when he was fired. Not FIREd but actually let go and now can't ever get it back.

He has also categorized all of us into a shoebox that maybe is 1% of the forum.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on January 25, 2022, 05:26:11 PM
I actually sortakinda agree with him, but not in the way he thinks. All I see is a guy who has bought into society’s narrative that a man’s entire identity is nothing but his ability to make money and be a capitalist cog.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 25, 2022, 06:37:31 PM
I actually sortakinda agree with him, but not in the way he thinks. All I see is a guy who has bought into society’s narrative that a man’s entire identity is nothing but his ability to make money and be a capitalist cog.

Yeah there are small nuggets where I agree but he doesn't take the thought far enough to know whether the issue is true or surmountable.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 26, 2022, 08:37:18 AM
Off Topic

Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.

It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.

I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 26, 2022, 08:42:55 AM
Off Topic

Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.

It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.

I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

Seems like this is OT enough to warrant a completely different thread.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 26, 2022, 08:43:04 AM
I think I had a brain wave here:

From Investopia:

“The FIRE retirement movement takes direct aim at the conventional retirement age of 65 and the industry that has grown up to encourage people to plan for it. By dedicating a majority of their income to savings, followers of the FIRE movement hope to be able to quit their jobs and live solely off small withdrawals from their portfolios decades before they reach 65.”



I think you are making a fundamental mistake in thinking that a small withdrawal (i.e. a 3 or 4% withdrawal rate) of an investment portfolio is the same thing as having a small annual spending rate. Yes, we will be living off small percentage withdrawals but the actual dollar value of that withdrawal may be modest or may be quite a lot depending on each person's individual budget. You can do the math to know that 4% of a big number is still a big number, right? For example our invested net worth is something like $3.6M. A small percentage withdrawal of that is still a very spendy FIRE budget.

Some here have questioned my alcoholic friend’s approach to achieving FIRE. His approach meets this description exactly. Plenty here are proposing to do something similar like supporting a family off $25,000/year in a west coast city.

Your alcoholic friend clearly got the financial side of his life right by investing enough money to not be broke when he couldn't work anymore. The fact that he has a devastating illness is completely orthogonal to his finances and has zero relevance to this discussion.


Tiny House Movement

The tiny house movement started to be a big deal around 20 years ago. I followed several bloggers for a very long time and watched their trajectory through their experiences of living in a tiny house. I believe that the tiny house people share similarities with the FIRE cult. Both movements share the same dream of an escape from the pressures of modern life. They both propose to accomplish that through extreme measures that they expect to last for the duration. All the tiny house people whom I followed eventually faded from the stage or confessed that they returned to traditional housing. It's a neat idea but ultimately unsustainable for the average human being.

There are several tiny house communities in my city, one within biking distance. I'm not sure how they are unsustainable. Just because you or I don't want to live in them doesn't mean it isn't viable for others. My SFH existence isn't viable for everyone either but that doesn't mean the idea of a single family home is going to implode.

I imagine that both of these trends are spawned by depressed cubicle dwellers who steal away a few minutes each day at the office to disconnect with reality and lose themselves in the fantasy of a different life. I am not here to shatter that dream. My aim is to point out that there are many other ways to change one's life circumstances that do not require such extremes. It may take longer to get there but it is a realistic model that has plenty of at-hand examples.

As I have mentioned before, I am completely behind the pursuit of financial independence. What I have an issue with is the idea of idling oneself prematurely. Old people have the longest duration in a tiny house and with severe budgetary restrictions. It's because they don't have a choice. They are too old to work and well past an age where they can accept much risk. They have no other option but to accept the realities of their situation. A 35-year-old has options. They get bored. Their life is open to change. Remaining employed is a powerful financial tool. Build into the life that you want.
I'm sorry to be crass here but I am frustrated. I find it fucking insulting how you continue to insist despite numerous examples to the contrary, that FIRE life is unrealistic, extreme, or that choosing not to work for pay is idle. That is a slap in the face to the vast numbers of people who do significant good for society in their unpaid positions. My aunt and uncle who spend thousands of dollars regularly going on food runs to fill up their local food bank. The parents who run PTAs and keep our crumbling schools patched together in spite of the endless budget cuts and other demands placed on schools. The people at the library tutoring adults how to read. The nice hiking trails we enjoy are often maintained by volunteers. There are endless examples. The US in general has a patchy-to-nonexistent safety net and social structure compared to other developed countries and what we do have is often put together by grassroot community efforts usually highly dependent on volunteers. Our lives are materially better, perhaps in hidden ways, by people who don't have to sit in cubicle from 9-5 every week day.

I heard an NPR piece several years back about online trolls and a former troll was interviewed about their activities and change of heart. For this person the hate they spewed online was ultimately founded in their own depression and disappointment in life, and so in a childish bully way, they found satisfaction in making those around them online feel even worse. Once this person recognized what was going on and got treatment for the actual source of the issue (depression) the trolling behavior stopped.

I haven't called you a troll because I don't think you are purposefully trying to make people miserable. But your posts all read like you are deeply unhappy with your life. Instead of continually trying to make a large group of happy people change their minds and believe they are unhappy, why not direct your energy into self reflection and improving your own life?

To quote you above: "Life is open to change. Build that into what you want". Go focus on that for yourself. Please just trust us when we say we are happy.

I understand that you don't want your idealistic image of FIRE altered. I have spent my adult life experiencing different aspects of FIRE and believe that it is important to share. If you notice, I do not comment on threads other than this one and real estate investing. My purpose is so that you can easily avoid my concepts if you so choose.

I have already mentioned this plenty of times before. Some will be annoyed that I am restating it however, you and others have asked so here I so again. I spent a long time volunteering for lots of things. I was on various boards for the advancement of social causes. I was a volunteer firefighter. I took numerous classes such as cross country skiing and sea kayaking. I taught classes. It gets boring. Volunteers get to help put away the folding chairs. They fill juice cups and conduct fringe meaningless functions. I did it out of necessity and got bored.

I have a desire to do things that matter still. I wish to be an example to my children of what an active life of continuous effort looks like. Employment involves risk. It means placing yourself in uncomfortable positions. You are responsible to others. The experience of working forces you to grow. Sitting at home and tending a garden is not meaningful growth in my opinion.

Volunteering is better than nothing, but it is no replacement for meaningful engagement with life in my experience.
I’m sorry that your life has turned out so disappointing to you. Personally I think you have accomplished a lot and should be proud of yourself and what you have done. It is a waste to sit around chewing endlessly at “what ifs” instead of living a great life now. It’s not like griping is making your life more fulfilling. You’ve tried hard to rain on our parade but the likes of us in this forum are a stubborn lot and we will continue to enjoy the FIRE life. If things go south financially then we will activate some of our several contingency plans (rent out unused space, cut back spending, take on a bit of part time work, etc.).

Breathe. It will be okay.

I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach. I also believe that those who can be content with whatever their situation is are also the same people who would be content with living in a van. Discontent is the driving force behind progress. Without it, I would have remained at the gas station job I started with. (I often miss that job.)

Breathing is good but don't become too comfortible. Thank you for your comments.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 26, 2022, 08:44:27 AM
Off Topic

Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.

It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.

I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

Seems like this is OT enough to warrant a completely different thread.

Some here do not like me. I try to contain my posts to this thread as a courtesy to those who wish to avoid my comments.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 26, 2022, 09:02:07 AM
Off Topic

Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.

It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.

I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

Seems like this is OT enough to warrant a completely different thread.

Some here do not like me. I try to contain my posts to this thread as a courtesy to those who wish to avoid my comments.

Starting an entirely new topic within an existing thread will not have any positive outcomes.

Posters who no longer wish to engage with you will simply avoid any threads you create. Those of us who continue to follow this thread will only get frustrated by having the conversation muddied by the OP discussing two very different topics.  It's a lose-lose.

However, if you were to start a new thread dedicated to a discussion about rent in the appropriate sub-forum you are likely to get more detailed and thoughtful responses, as the current thread-title will do nothing to attract the sorts of experienced opinions you seek.

(also, see: this concurrent thread (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/real-estate-and-landlording/how-much-to-raise-rent-wo-being-a-jerk/))
 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Watchmaker on January 26, 2022, 09:04:13 AM
I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach.

I know dozens or even hundreds of successful entrepreneurs. Not a single one of them is obsessed with their failures (just the opposite in fact). I think you're hanging out with the wrong crowd.

So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

I agree with the others that this should be a different thread, but I don't want you to feel ignored (even though you largely ignore everyone else on this thread), so here's my take:

I'm not a landlord, but I'd say you shouldn't feel bad as long as you are just bringing rates up to market rates and you're doing so in a legal manner (I understand some jurisdictions have limits to how much you can raise rents per year, but I don't know where you live). If they are good tenants, I would be tempted to spread those large increases across a few years, but I think most professionals would say that's me being overly soft.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 26, 2022, 09:21:41 AM
After reading your comments I agree with many of your assessments. I am searching for additional meaning in life. My goal in attending college was so that I could become a class migrant and escape the working class. My aim was to become a professional like many of you here. It does bother me that I fell short. It feels a lot like life ducted me back into the working class despite all my efforts.

My purpose for attempting to become a professional elite was so that I could provide a better life for my family and myself. As a child, I was able to observe how professional elites lived and determined it was a better way. I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.

The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite. I know all about how to FIRE. It is easy for me. I grew up with it. It is why I don’t find it very interesting. It was my fallback plan. The working class knows all about frugality, self-reliance, and self-employment.

I can help to provide a path to FIRE. Despite my best efforts, I couldn't get a meaningful career in my chosen field.

Movie Recommendation: Hillbilly Elegy 2020. A working-class/poor kid tries to break into the elite professional class.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 26, 2022, 09:24:37 AM
I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach.

I know dozens or even hundreds of successful entrepreneurs. Not a single one of them is obsessed with their failures (just the opposite in fact). I think you're hanging out with the wrong crowd.

So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

I agree with the others that this should be a different thread, but I don't want you to feel ignored (even though you largely ignore everyone else on this thread), so here's my take:

I'm not a landlord, but I'd say you shouldn't feel bad as long as you are just bringing rates up to market rates and you're doing so in a legal manner (I understand some jurisdictions have limits to how much you can raise rents per year, but I don't know where you live). If they are good tenants, I would be tempted to spread those large increases across a few years, but I think most professionals would say that's me being overly soft.

I agree that spreading the increases over a few years is a good path. We are considering something like this. People are getting priced out of homes all over America. It is sad. We are on the front lines of that experience.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 26, 2022, 09:27:43 AM
I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.

I'd suggest you stop trying to classify everyone in the world, as well as put the broad variety of forum participants into a small box!

I'm a college dropout (hardly an "intellectual elite") that grew up on a farm, where I shoveled shit, pulled weeds, chopped firewood, repaired fences, made toys out of sticks and lumber... It's not "novel", really, and yet I enjoy it in adult life.

I have basically zero "status" in the corporate world, other than "employee number 637". I do not seek such status, as it is merely looking for recognition from others.

I think you have to look within, find things that you yourself truly value, and push yourself to accomplish those things, ignoring what other people think of you (beyond moral choices/things that could affect those around you.)
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: matchewed on January 26, 2022, 09:28:15 AM
What is a professional or social elite? Can you define these terms so that we can know what you are saying?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on January 26, 2022, 09:47:50 AM
I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.

I'd suggest you stop trying to classify everyone in the world, as well as put the broad variety of forum participants into a small box!

I'm a college dropout (hardly an "intellectual elite") that grew up on a farm, where I shoveled shit, pulled weeds, chopped firewood, repaired fences, made toys out of sticks and lumber... It's not "novel", really, and yet I enjoy it in adult life.

I have basically zero "status" in the corporate world, other than "employee number 637". I do not seek such status, as it is merely looking for recognition from others.

I think you have to look within, find things that you yourself truly value, and push yourself to accomplish those things, ignoring what other people think of you (beyond moral choices/things that could affect those around you.)

Seriously. I think Skyhigh should really take a look in the mirror and ask himself why he is so committed to believing these things about this particular group of people, as a lens through which to view the comments he sees here. What, in other words, his lens is designed to highlight, and what it is designed to hide.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Fru-Gal on January 26, 2022, 10:09:14 AM
I did a ton of very hard manual and physical jobs and ran my own small companies for a good chunk of my working adult life. I figured a six-figure job was completely outside of possibility for me and honestly MMM changed that view for me. I began working as a contractor and eventually broke into the six-figure megacorp employment world with benefits. And changed my family’s life. However I always say that the first thing that I changed was my own mindset. Once I had the six-figure job I was on a mission to have something to show for that in a few years. So none of my spending increased, I refinanced debt. And at 51 (at the end of last year) I retired with $1 million in investments/savings. I love reading people’s examples of what they are doing in this phase of life.

So thank you I do consider myself elite.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Fru-Gal on January 26, 2022, 10:11:56 AM
And also if ever there was a time you could get a corporate job now is it. I just did two informational interviews because former colleagues reached out. Oh my God I’m so glad I’m done with it. So many dumbasses. But they are desperately searching for people to rule over. And have zoom meetings with.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Watchmaker on January 26, 2022, 10:24:14 AM
After reading your comments I agree with many of your assessments. I am searching for additional meaning in life.
A noble goal.

My goal in attending college was so that I could become a class migrant and escape the working class. My aim was to become a professional like many of you here. It does bother me that I fell short. It feels a lot like life ducted me back into the working class despite all my efforts.

My purpose for attempting to become a professional elite was so that I could provide a better life for my family and myself. As a child, I was able to observe how professional elites lived and determined it was a better way. I believe that most here are overeducated intellectual elites who find joy in working with their hands because it is a novel experience.

Many of the members of this forum (not all) are here because they were white collar workers and they found the structure and politics associated with that lifestyle to be unfulfilling. To quote Gertrude Stein: "There is no there there". A lot of people who have been to where you want to go are telling you it's not worth the trip.

The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite.

I don't know what you are like in real life, but if you come across at all like you do online, it's no mystery to me why you struggled in the corporate world. While not being universal requirements, the ability to conform to the company culture and its unwritten etiquette, and being someone who is easy to communicate with are key predictors of success. It doesn't take much awkwardness in a interview for your resume to end up in the trash. Part of what college does (by design or not) is to socialize people into American middle class culture--to teach them how to behave in that world.

A lot of the things that worked against you in your career may be similar to the issues that women have faced in those same workplaces, and minorities as well. The thing is, that doesn't mean there's something wrong with you--maybe there's something wrong with that corporate culture.   

Does this feel similar to your experience?
https://www.themuse.com/advice/diversity-inclusion-class-difference-workplace-prudential

The good news is that corporate cultures have been changing, there are a lot of different types companies out there to pick from, and they are all hiring. If you really want advice on how to fit in to get a job, I'd be happy to help. To start, could you share a copy of your resume (with identifying information redacted)?

Movie Recommendation: Hillbilly Elegy 2020. A working-class/poor kid tries to break into the elite professional class.

Never seen the movie, but I thought it was a narcissistic wank of a book.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on January 26, 2022, 03:52:27 PM
The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite.

I told you previously.   It is simple:  Develop in-demand job skills.   That's how I did it.  I went to a state school and started working in a field only at best tangentially related to my field of study.  From there I went to what (I guess) you would call a corporate job where most people would wear a suit and tie to work.   How did I get hired?  I had skills they wanted and few other people had.  No social elites involved. 

My wife is a better example.  It took her ten years and seven colleges (mostly community college) to get a four year degree.   She now has a fancy position at a major global company that you've heard of and probably interact with everyday.   No social elites involved. 

By the way, simple doesn't necessarily mean easy. 

Quote
Movie Recommendation: Hillbilly Elegy 2020. A working-class/poor kid tries to break into the elite professional class.

Which he did.  Quite successfully too.   
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: FreshlyFIREd on January 27, 2022, 01:48:18 AM
I have learned that entrepreneurs obsess over their failures since they have so much to teach.

Edison once said, “I have not failed 10,000 times—I've successfully found 10,000 ways that will not work.”
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 27, 2022, 06:57:52 AM
Regarding rent increases: You say you didn't create the situation. But compassion is a learned trait. Do you believe that the tenant you've cited has had an 80% salary increase since their last rent increase? Have the LL's costs actually gone up 80%? Raising someone's rent 80% in one go is a Total Dick Move.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Kris on January 27, 2022, 07:16:19 AM
Off Topic

Today I must send out a letter notifying our pool of tenants that were going to be raising the rent during the next cycle. COVID caused a suspension of changes to lease rates over the last two years. Now those restrictions are gone and we are free to return to a market-based method of establishing a lease rate. We typically raise the rent on individual leases every two years. Some of our customers hit the sweet spot. They were right at the end of their two-year mark when COVID restrictions were put in place. As a result, their rents have not been raised for over 4 years. In one case, the individual is looking at an 80% increase.

It is not going to be fun. Customers are going to be scared and calling the office with questions. Some will experience a minor increase while others severe. I own a large portion of the homes we rent however the majority we manage for others. They use these properties as a huge portion of their retirement plan. COVID restrictions have caused owners great hardship and now they want to recover much of what was lost. There is ample pain and fear to go around.

I know what I have to do and why I have to do it, however feel bad about it. I like you guys because you are an honest room. Most of the circles I participate in give way to my perspective. I often don't know how they really feel about certain issues because they keep it to themselves. You all here are free to unleash with your complete fury whenever you disagree with me about anything. I find it to be very refreshing and endearing. So, what do you think about this situation? Should I feel bad? I didn’t cause it.

If you are feeling uncomfortable enough about this to ask internet strangers for absolution, then I think you know that yes, you should feel bad about it. And you should do something about it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 27, 2022, 08:43:24 AM
Regarding rent increases: You say you didn't create the situation. But compassion is a learned trait. Do you believe that the tenant you've cited has had an 80% salary increase since their last rent increase? Have the LL's costs actually gone up 80%? Raising someone's rent 80% in one go is a Total Dick Move.

Most of the homes that we manage are owned by clients.

It would be a harsh blow to raise the rent by 80% in one go. However, most of the time there is a person who is on the receiving end of that rent increase who needs the funds to support their FIRE lifestyle. They don't know the tenants personally. All they know is that they need more rental income and the time has come to get it.

Compassion flows both ways. We have notified tenants who are in the most fragile situation and have offered to help them to find a different form of housing (smaller). We also have been successful at getting some owners to accept a graduated rent increase. It is difficult to know what to do.

I believe that artificially low rent prices hurt tenants by permitting them to duck the blow of inflation. Often they need to be forced to recognize the situation they are in so that they can make adjustments to their lifestyle. Too many times I have seen the results of a low rent become a new boat in the driveway.

Eventually, owners get tired of property managers who can not bring the rents up to par and hire someone else. The new PM raises the rents in one go. They don't have a relationship with the tenants and don't care about the results.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 27, 2022, 08:48:44 AM
The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite.

I told you previously.   It is simple:  Develop in-demand job skills.   That's how I did it.  I went to a state school and started working in a field only at best tangentially related to my field of study.  From there I went to what (I guess) you would call a corporate job where most people would wear a suit and tie to work.   How did I get hired?  I had skills they wanted and few other people had.  No social elites involved. 

My wife is a better example.  It took her ten years and seven colleges (mostly community college) to get a four year degree.   She now has a fancy position at a major global company that you've heard of and probably interact with everyday.   No social elites involved. 

By the way, simple doesn't necessarily mean easy. 

Quote
Movie Recommendation: Hillbilly Elegy 2020. A working-class/poor kid tries to break into the elite professional class.

Which he did.  Quite successfully too.

I did go to college and accomplished all the credentials. My career progress was slow but moderately effective.  I have an impressive resume with the exception that I am not from the social group that plays golf with the chief pilot. My industry has been very competitive. There has been a surplus of similarly trained, educated, and experienced people in the job market. Social capital is what made the difference toward obtaining a position that makes the sacrifices worthwhile. Out of my graduating class, 5% made it to our career objective.

I was unlucky in my career, but lucky in love and real estate.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 27, 2022, 09:08:32 AM
What you are saying is that people who are extrinsically motivated will have a harder time in FIRE. Probably true. But have you considered intrinsically motivated people? Or people who go from extrinsic to intrinsic?


Government-sponsored FIRE

I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life.  At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.

Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.

Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)

Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.

I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile. 


By your own definition you are saying she's not FIRE.

It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is. I have been trying to come up with a description that captures the intent of many of you. To me, FIRE means being Financially Independent (Not a wage slave) and Retiring Early (Prior to 60-67). The lady in the story very much meets the FIRE criteria, so do hobos.

It seems that many here hold FIRE in some sort of reverence that includes hard-to-define elements such as "intent".  They would not consider a homeless person to have accomplished FIRE even though they do what they want and are retired. Some here consider $25,000/year as a reasonable annual sum to be able to cease their work function when to me it is only a sliver above being homeless.

The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 27, 2022, 09:26:14 AM
What you are saying is that people who are extrinsically motivated will have a harder time in FIRE. Probably true. But have you considered intrinsically motivated people? Or people who go from extrinsic to intrinsic?


Government-sponsored FIRE

I met a lady the other day who was very relieved that her Section 8 housing had been completed and was ready for her to move into. The government housing benefit, along with Social Security and food stamps, would make it so that she never had to go to work again. She could now spend the rest of her days walking her support animals every 4 hours and watching game shows in her 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment for the rest of her life.  At 45 years of age, she was free and didn't have to worry about working anymore. There are plenty of ways to accomplish FIRE.

Before you make your comments to discredit this FIRE method, I will offer the definition again.

Financially Independent = The status of having enough income without having to be employed or dependent upon others. (Government = others)

Retire Early = Retire prior to the regularly accepted age of post 60.

I agree that the concept of using the government as a FIRE option is unsound. However, others here are planning to heavily rely on Social Security being solvent in the distant future for their FIRE plans to work. If your financial future is reliant upon SSI to play a role in 20 years then I would take heed and keep building your nut pile. 


By your own definition you are saying she's not FIRE.

It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is. I have been trying to come up with a description that captures the intent of many of you. To me, FIRE means being Financially Independent (Not a wage slave) and Retiring Early (Prior to 60-67). The lady in the story very much meets the FIRE criteria, so do hobos.

It seems that many here hold FIRE in some sort of reverence that includes hard-to-define elements such as "intent".  They would not consider a homeless person to have accomplished FIRE even though they do what they want and are retired. Some here consider $25,000/year as a reasonable annual sum to be able to cease their work function when to me it is only a sliver above being homeless.

The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.

You are literally the only person here in a FIRE forum suggesting it means something other than what we all are saying.

You keep repeating the same bullshit.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 27, 2022, 10:32:39 AM

It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is. I have been trying to come up with a description that captures the intent of many of you. To me, FIRE means being Financially Independent (Not a wage slave) and Retiring Early (Prior to 60-67). The lady in the story very much meets the FIRE criteria, so do hobos.

It seems that many here hold FIRE in some sort of reverence that includes hard-to-define elements such as "intent".  They would not consider a homeless person to have accomplished FIRE even though they do what they want and are retired. Some here consider $25,000/year as a reasonable annual sum to be able to cease their work function when to me it is only a sliver above being homeless.

The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.

Yes, this is the very core of the problem: you are using an entirely different definition for terms that we use frequently around here, such as “FIRE”

I do not believe a single other poster on this forum would consider a homeless person to be FIREd, nor the destitute. On this forum and in most other cases there is a very important and real distinction between being FIRE and being unemployed. There is an important difference between meeting the bare minimum to remain alive and having sufficient resources to be content (I.e. having “enough”)

At this point I’m wondering if english is not your first language, as there certainly are difficulties conveying and understanding commonly agreed upon terminology.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 27, 2022, 10:58:53 AM
I do not believe a single other poster on this forum would consider a homeless person to be FIREd, nor the destitute. On this forum and in most other cases there is a very important and real distinction between being FIRE and being unemployed. There is an important difference between meeting the bare minimum to remain alive and having sufficient resources to be content (I.e. having “enough”)

The four words in FIRE do not contain "intent" per se, but I think most participants in this forum consider Financial Independence to mean you have sufficient monetary assets to do as you choose. The important part there is that you are doing something by choice. Not by necessity or because of an affliction.

Per the dictionary for "independence"
Quote
Someone's independence is the fact that they do not rely on other people.

So no, they do not rely on social security or welfare. Those that do are still financially dependent.

You also cannot be "forced to FIRE" because what you do in the state of FIRE is by your choice.

If you're financially independent, and you are fired from your job, you are unemployed. If you choose to retire at that point, you can consider yourself FIRE. But no one forced it upon you. You were choosing to work, and that employment was taken away, but that doesn't affect whether or not you "are FIRE." Only that you chose not to pursue employment or income through action. Self-employment is not passive income, even if it takes less hours of work to achieve for one individual, and if it's necessary than it's not financial independence.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 27, 2022, 11:01:35 AM
FIREd ≠ fired

This is important.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on January 27, 2022, 11:42:01 AM
I did go to college and accomplished all the credentials. My career progress was slow but moderately effective.  I have an impressive resume with the exception that I am not from the social group that plays golf with the chief pilot. My industry has been very competitive. There has been a surplus of similarly trained, educated, and experienced people in the job market. Social capital is what made the difference toward obtaining a position that makes the sacrifices worthwhile. Out of my graduating class, 5% made it to our career objective.

I was unlucky in my career, but lucky in love and real estate.

I'll try a last time:   I said the key was to develop an in-demand skill set.   According to you, there was a huge surplus of people with your skill set (95% of your class). Hence, your skills were not in demand.   There were nine people waiting in line behind you ready to take your job.  Those are tough odds, for sure. 

If you want a corporate gig, I recommend a professional field where companies have trouble finding qualified candidates.  That changes the calculation a lot.

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 27, 2022, 02:05:45 PM


It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.

You are the only one who has his own define of FIRE. Everyone else has the same definition. It means having your own independent income source to support your lifestyle without ever needing to get a job again.  No one who is homeless and/or dependent on welfare can make that claim. Health insurance for FIRED people is a frequent topic here, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.

By the way, 25k for a single person with a paid off house is definitely enough for a nice lifestyle. My family of 4 spends about 60k/year with a mortgage and we don't budget or deprive ourselves in the slightest.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 27, 2022, 03:52:03 PM
 

If you want a corporate gig, I recommend a professional field where companies have trouble finding qualified candidates.  That changes the calculation a lot.

This. I just responded to four separate recruiters who reached out to me this week (a record). I'll tell them all I am only open to considering half-time work and they will all creep back into the ether. But there is no doubt that if I were willing to work 40+ hours/week I'd have no problem getting my foot in the door at Big Tech or Big Aerospace.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: seattlecyclone on January 27, 2022, 04:07:21 PM
 

If you want a corporate gig, I recommend a professional field where companies have trouble finding qualified candidates.  That changes the calculation a lot.

This. I just responded to four separate recruiters who reached out to me this week (a record). I'll tell them all I am only open to considering half-time work and they will all creep back into the ether. But there is no doubt that if I were willing to work 40+ hours/week I'd have no problem getting my foot in the door at Big Tech or Big Aerospace.

Yesterday I had two separate recruiters from different arms of the same company reach out to me.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 27, 2022, 04:53:39 PM
 

If you want a corporate gig, I recommend a professional field where companies have trouble finding qualified candidates.  That changes the calculation a lot.

This. I just responded to four separate recruiters who reached out to me this week (a record). I'll tell them all I am only open to considering half-time work and they will all creep back into the ether. But there is no doubt that if I were willing to work 40+ hours/week I'd have no problem getting my foot in the door at Big Tech or Big Aerospace.

Yesterday I had two separate recruiters from different arms of the same company reach out to me.
Hah, yes! I had one recruiter for BigTech and a recruiter with a contract position for BigTech reach out simultaneously. And I've been pinged at least half a dozen times for this same company over the past year.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on January 27, 2022, 09:48:10 PM
Hah, yes! I had one recruiter for BigTech and a recruiter with a contract position for BigTech reach out simultaneously. And I've been pinged at least half a dozen times for this same company over the past year.

My situation is slightly different.  I don't have mad tech skills or anything, and I'm primarily a contractor, but there is a shortage of people who do the type of work I do.  The type of work lends itself to short term contracts.  So I get pounded with offers for short term projects.  Easily double what I can actually accomplish.  A bunch of companies have asked me to become a contractor for them, but I don't bother because I can't do all the work that existing companies have for me. 

I wouldn't say people are beating down the door to offer me full time positions, but it happens three times a year or so.  That's not counting the vague "We're hiring!" email blasts that come through. 

The good part about my work situation is that I can easily take short term projects during FIRE if I so choose. The wife says this is the year of FIRE, so keep your fingers crossed everyone. 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 28, 2022, 09:02:07 AM
Children are a poor man's riches

Some here have commented that our large number of children has been an obstacle to FIRE. I agree that children are very expensive and complicate life a great deal. However, in our case, they were more of a consequence of FIRE.

Way back when my wife and I were both fully employed wage slaves we had a single child. It was a massive burden to organize schedules to accommodate the needs of a small person. The expense of daycare was crushing. Our lives were filled with rushing around hurriedly making appointments and zooming to the next event. By nightfall, we were both exhausted. At the end of the month, budgets were always tight adding to the stress of life with a child and jobs in the big city.

After I was laid off almost 20 years ago, we began our journey as a FIRE family. At the time we had two children with a third on the way. Our new life in FIRE presented a whole new spectrum of opportunity. We went from being time-compressed to having endless resources of time and two parents available to provide childcare. I still worked our business however am retrievable via text message almost all the time. Our small town makes it easy to pick up a kid from school and take them to a quick orthodontist appointment if necessary.

FIRE has made it much easier to be a parent. The abundance of time and control in FIRE made the prospect of adding more children far less daunting. It was a total game-changer in regard to parenthood. My wife was able to homeschool our kids for many years. Since being laid off our children have never known daycare or even a babysitter. One of us has been with them every day until they reached school age.

As a result of the opportunity to create more children we did. The added expense also helped to provide additional motivation for me to advance our real estate portfolio to accommodate the added expenditures. We have a large family because we can.
It has been said that the poor have large families for a similar reason. The lack of professional opportunity and abundance of time creates a need to fill it with something. The working-class values family and relationships above all else. The ability to have a large family is a blessing of FIRE. It is also a path to it.

If we didn't have so many kids I probably would have returned to my career-long ago. However, employment is expensive and does not pay very well at first. I waited until our children were old enough to not need us as much before I made my move back into the job market. The Financial Samurai has a great article regarding how the production of children is an aid to FIRE.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 28, 2022, 09:07:33 AM
For the love of fucking FIRE please just leave. At this point you're ignoring everything.

No one called your children and obstacle
Great job blaming your lack of career success on them though. This is wildly unhealthy by the way.
You didn't FIRE 20 years ago. You were fired and switched to a career in home maintenance and property management.

You need to seek professional help
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 28, 2022, 09:09:01 AM


It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.

You are the only one who has his own define of FIRE. Everyone else has the same definition. It means having your own independent income source to support your lifestyle without ever needing to get a job again.  No one who is homeless and/or dependent on welfare can make that claim. Health insurance for FIRED people is a frequent topic here, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.

By the way, 25k for a single person with a paid off house is definitely enough for a nice lifestyle. My family of 4 spends about 60k/year with a mortgage and we don't budget or deprive ourselves in the slightest.
Yes @Skyhigh is missing the fact that most homeless.people or those who qualify for government aid do not have any assets to fall back on. Most who are FI here have a pretty huge stash that we can tap into if needed. Even if the market drops 50% and you lose half of your invested NW you'll still have a very sizable chunk of financial assets. Throw in a paid off house (or a low mortgage) and you can live independently a long time. Or sell or rent it out or get roommate for awhile. We have options a homeless person or someone dependent on welfare doesn't have. If it's taken away they are likely going to be destitute. A card board box under an overpass and food stamps do not equate financial independence or retirement.

And yes a si vie person or couple or even those with kids can live a nice life on $25k/year if they set it up right before leaving their jobs.

Plenty here are not so well off and are proposing to FIRE. I agree that you have more options than someone who lives on government assistance, however, so far the government has not gone bankrupt. Once a strict FIRE budget is in place you had better hope that nothing goes wrong. Selling off assets is a path people can take however it often does not end well. Imagine reaching your senior years and running out of options.

It is better to remain employed at something until you can't anymore. Life on 25K works great on paper.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 28, 2022, 09:10:05 AM
For the love of fucking FIRE please just leave. At this point you're ignoring everything.

No one called your children and obstacle
Great job blaming your lack of career success on them though. This is wildly unhealthy by the way.
You didn't FIRE 20 years ago. You were fired and switched to a career in home maintenance and property management.

You need to seek professional help

Stop reading. You are a codependent at this point.   Some here have accused my child load as a reason. Look it up. I think it is on Page 12.

It was a pro-FIRE statement. I thought you would like it.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 28, 2022, 09:18:35 AM
@arebelspy @FrugalToque

Can we move this thread to the antimustashian wall of shame and comedy?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 28, 2022, 09:19:15 AM


It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.

You are the only one who has his own define of FIRE. Everyone else has the same definition. It means having your own independent income source to support your lifestyle without ever needing to get a job again.  No one who is homeless and/or dependent on welfare can make that claim. Health insurance for FIRED people is a frequent topic here, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.

By the way, 25k for a single person with a paid off house is definitely enough for a nice lifestyle. My family of 4 spends about 60k/year with a mortgage and we don't budget or deprive ourselves in the slightest.

I agree that my perspective is different. It is one of the reasons why I find this place so interesting. 25K for a single person and a paid-off house might be enough to exist comfortably enough for now. However, that is one of my points. Is the purpose of life merely to exist?

Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: nereo on January 28, 2022, 09:19:41 AM


It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.

You are the only one who has his own define of FIRE. Everyone else has the same definition. It means having your own independent income source to support your lifestyle without ever needing to get a job again.  No one who is homeless and/or dependent on welfare can make that claim. Health insurance for FIRED people is a frequent topic here, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.

By the way, 25k for a single person with a paid off house is definitely enough for a nice lifestyle. My family of 4 spends about 60k/year with a mortgage and we don't budget or deprive ourselves in the slightest.
Yes @Skyhigh is missing the fact that most homeless.people or those who qualify for government aid do not have any assets to fall back on. Most who are FI here have a pretty huge stash that we can tap into if needed. Even if the market drops 50% and you lose half of your invested NW you'll still have a very sizable chunk of financial assets. Throw in a paid off house (or a low mortgage) and you can live independently a long time. Or sell or rent it out or get roommate for awhile. We have options a homeless person or someone dependent on welfare doesn't have. If it's taken away they are likely going to be destitute. A card board box under an overpass and food stamps do not equate financial independence or retirement.

And yes a si vie person or couple or even those with kids can live a nice life on $25k/year if they set it up right before leaving their jobs.

Plenty here are not so well off and are proposing to FIRE. I agree that you have more options than someone who lives on government assistance, however, so far the government has not gone bankrupt. Once a strict FIRE budget is in place you had better hope that nothing goes wrong. Selling off assets is a path people can take however it often does not end well. Imagine reaching your senior years and running out of options.

It is better to remain employed at something until you can't anymore. Life on 25K works great on paper.

Over and over again you have shown that you do not understand what the term FIRE actually means, and you continually conflate being unemployed with being FIREd

There is a term for what you are doing: gaslighting.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Skyhigh on January 28, 2022, 09:23:48 AM
@arebelspy @FrugalToque

Can we move this thread to the antimustashian wall of shame and comedy?

I don't see how my life differs from that of MMM other than I have been doing it for longer. He does not sit at home and burn his days in the garden either. He is also actively building a brand and business. I believe that I am more mustachian than most here.

It is easy to take shots from the cheap seats. Why don't you share a short resume of your FIRE situation?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 28, 2022, 09:31:15 AM
@arebelspy @FrugalToque

Can we move this thread to the antimustashian wall of shame and comedy?

I don't see how my life differs from that of MMM other than I have been doing it for longer. He does not sit at home and burn his days in the garden either. He is also actively building a brand and business. I believe that I am more mustachian than most here.

It is easy to take shots from the cheap seats. Why don't you share a short resume of your FIRE situation?

Have multiple times you've ignored it. Most people here can heavily vouch for my influence on their own personal fire journeys.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 28, 2022, 09:34:11 AM
Also I'm actually FIREd. By the general definition not your made up one.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Watchmaker on January 28, 2022, 09:52:10 AM
The title of this thread is, “How to get a job in corporate America”. I honestly don’t know. I believe it has something to do with networking among the social elite.

If you really want advice on how to fit in to get a job, I'd be happy to help. To start, could you share a copy of your resume (with identifying information redacted)?

Do you actually want any advice on this?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Moustachienne on January 28, 2022, 10:32:18 AM

Good grief, your life couldn't be more different than MMM's and it's not about money or work or FIRE. It's attitude. MMM believes in Outrageous Optimism and that for many, if not most Americans and others in lucky countries, life is a Fire Hose of Opportunity.  Sure doesn't seem like you share this view, which is the fundamental reason for his blog and this Forum.

You don't like... being a "wage slave", being unemployed or under employed, owning your own business, doing "meaningless" hobbies or volunteer work, being FIRE (as you define it), not being asked to play golf with the chief pilot, and on and on.   You do seem to like your family (whew) but honestly, can you imaging MMM going on about how the world is against him and how there is no happiness anywhere to be found?  Face punch time my friend but you'll have to smack yourself as you're impervious to any feedback from others.

@arebelspy @FrugalToque

Can we move this thread to the antimustashian wall of shame and comedy?

I don't see how my life differs from that of MMM other than I have been doing it for longer. He does not sit at home and burn his days in the garden either. He is also actively building a brand and business. I believe that I am more mustachian than most here.

It is easy to take shots from the cheap seats. Why don't you share a short resume of your FIRE situation?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: neo von retorch on January 28, 2022, 10:41:37 AM
Good grief, your life couldn't be more different than MMM's and it's not about money or work or FIRE. It's attitude. MMM believes in Outrageous Optimism and that for many, if not most Americans and others in lucky countries, life is a Fire Hose of Opportunity.  Sure doesn't seem like you share this view, which is the fundamental reason for his blog and this Forum.

You don't like... being a "wage slave", being unemployed or under employed, owning your own business, doing "meaningless" hobbies or volunteer work, being FIRE (as you define it), not being asked to play golf with the chief pilot, and on and on.   You do seem to like your family (whew) but honestly, can you imaging MMM going on about how the world is against him and how there is no happiness anywhere to be found?  Face punch time my friend but you'll have to smack yourself as you're impervious to any feedback from others.

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/ZU9QbQtuI4Xcc/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47b7whm7izlq6yy9kvahl2yg6smxn6lx0g1lc6wmqi&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: charis on January 28, 2022, 11:47:02 AM


It seems that people here have their own definition of what FIRE is....
The aim of most people in life is to try hard not to FIRE. They want to remain employed. They like health insurance and the opportunity to earn more. The lady in my story is happy to be relieved of the obligation to work for a living. She has chosen a government assistance form of FIRE. Many others do as well. It is as reasonable a path as many here propose.

You are the only one who has his own define of FIRE. Everyone else has the same definition. It means having your own independent income source to support your lifestyle without ever needing to get a job again.  No one who is homeless and/or dependent on welfare can make that claim. Health insurance for FIRED people is a frequent topic here, so I don't know where you are getting this stuff from.

By the way, 25k for a single person with a paid off house is definitely enough for a nice lifestyle. My family of 4 spends about 60k/year with a mortgage and we don't budget or deprive ourselves in the slightest.
Yes @Skyhigh is missing the fact that most homeless.people or those who qualify for government aid do not have any assets to fall back on. Most who are FI here have a pretty huge stash that we can tap into if needed. Even if the market drops 50% and you lose half of your invested NW you'll still have a very sizable chunk of financial assets. Throw in a paid off house (or a low mortgage) and you can live independently a long time. Or sell or rent it out or get roommate for awhile. We have options a homeless person or someone dependent on welfare doesn't have. If it's taken away they are likely going to be destitute. A card board box under an overpass and food stamps do not equate financial independence or retirement.

And yes a si vie person or couple or even those with kids can live a nice life on $25k/year if they set it up right before leaving their jobs.

Plenty here are not so well off and are proposing to FIRE. I agree that you have more options than someone who lives on government assistance, however, so far the government has not gone bankrupt. Once a strict FIRE budget is in place you had better hope that nothing goes wrong. Selling off assets is a path people can take however it often does not end well. Imagine reaching your senior years and running out of options.

It is better to remain employed at something until you can't anymore. Life on 25K works great on paper.

Skyhigh, you are so far off the mark or confused about FIRE that your advice doesn't even make sense. And you are gaslighting. You move the goal posts every time someone challenges you because your posts are so disorganized and rambling that you can't defend them, so you have to try to pivot to some other unrelated "point."

I don't plan on having a strict budget in FIRE so nothing in your post (which was initially trying to argue that welfare recipients and homeless people are financially independent) is applicable to me. That probably goes for most of the people on this thread.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 28, 2022, 02:01:33 PM
And WTF do you have against gardening?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 28, 2022, 02:13:33 PM
And WTF do you have against gardening?

It's the job of a commoner not someone of upper class society.

Upper elites hire the help to do their gardening
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: youngwildandfree on January 28, 2022, 02:29:46 PM
From everything I've read here, it doesn't seem like you are looking for money, time, or even happiness. It seems like you are looking for a way to be popular or powerful. That doesn't happen from a high class corporate job, being a millionaire, or being a kind person. It's complex and typically involved some level of personal misery. Desperate desire to be liked by others is a sure way to be disliked regardless of class or finances. I don't hold the secrets to being well liked by others + happy and fulfilled in your personal life. I'm not sure anyone does.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 28, 2022, 03:37:46 PM
And WTF do you have against gardening?

It's the job of a commoner not someone of upper class society.

Upper elites hire the help to do their gardening
I thought upper crust society ladies spent their time volunteering at the gardening club. At least that is what my books tell me. :)
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: hooplady on January 28, 2022, 03:38:46 PM
And WTF do you have against gardening?

It's the job of a commoner not someone of upper class society.

Upper elites hire the help to do their gardening
I thought upper crust society ladies spent their time volunteering at the gardening club. At least that is what my books tell me. :)
Silly you, all volunteer work is meaningless and boring, haven't you been paying attention?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 28, 2022, 04:37:15 PM
And WTF do you have against gardening?

It's the job of a commoner not someone of upper class society.

Upper elites hire the help to do their gardening
I thought upper crust society ladies spent their time volunteering at the gardening club. At least that is what my books tell me. :)
Silly you, all volunteer work is meaningless and boring, haven't you been paying attention?
Ah, but everything is worth it once you break I to that upper middle class slice of society. Suddenly boring work takes on meaning because you have Made It.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Telecaster on January 28, 2022, 07:11:18 PM
And WTF do you have against gardening?

Do you see the Chief Pilot gardening?  No! 
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: hooplady on January 28, 2022, 07:11:29 PM
I thought upper crust society ladies spent their time volunteering at the gardening club. At least that is what my books tell me. :)
Silly you, all volunteer work is meaningless and boring, haven't you been paying attention?
Ah, but everything is worth it once you break I to that upper middle class slice of society. Suddenly boring work takes on meaning because you have Made It.
Oh duh, I forgot that utterly conflicting rule that can be invoked (like all the other arbitrary rules in this made-up universe) anytime things aren't going the "right" way.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: ysette9 on January 28, 2022, 08:11:17 PM
It’s a bit ironic to me. OP has simultaneously shown class envy and disparaged the idea of not doing something productive (or at least per his definition of productive, which only includes getting paid). The true rich don’t need to work at all because they have income-generating assets. Think Jane Austen’s landed gentry class.

FIRE is aspiring to be a modern-day landed gentry, without the land in most cases. What could be a bigger significant of financial success than not needing to work for a living?
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: boarder42 on January 28, 2022, 08:37:46 PM
It’s a bit ironic to me. OP has simultaneously shown class envy and disparaged the idea of not doing something productive (or at least per his definition of productive, which only includes getting paid). The true rich don’t need to work at all because they have income-generating assets. Think Jane Austen’s landed gentry class.

FIRE is aspiring to be a modern-day landed gentry, without the land in most cases. What could be a bigger significant of financial success than not needing to work for a living?


No no no

You don't get it.

FIRE is being a small business owner.

Pshhh amateur hour over here

Also

I AM MMM

AND ALSO SAM
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: lhamo on January 28, 2022, 08:48:11 PM
And WTF do you have against gardening?

Do you see the Chief Pilot gardening?  No!

Well when I actually met Prince Charles in 1988 (he was a fundraising sponsor for an "expedition" I had been chosen for) pretty much all he wanted to talk about was his adventures in organic gardening.   And Camilla was just on Gardener's World recently talking about their gardens at Highgrove.   So if  it is a good enough hobby for  the royals I guess it is good enough for little old me!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: hooplady on January 28, 2022, 09:00:52 PM
And WTF do you have against gardening?

Do you see the Chief Pilot gardening?  No!

Well when I actually met Prince Charles in 1988 (he was a fundraising sponsor for an "expedition" I had been chosen for) pretty much all he wanted to talk about was his adventures in organic gardening.   And Camilla was just on Gardener's World recently talking about their gardens at Highgrove.   So if  it is a good enough hobby for  the royals I guess it is good enough for little old me!
But...was he FIRE? I guess so, since the OP has given one definition as being dependent on government subsidies and the Royals certainly meet that qualification! Oh the conundrum, someone who is FIRED enjoying digging in the awful, working-class dirt.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Dicey on January 29, 2022, 12:38:19 AM
@arebelspy @FrugalToque

Can we move this thread to the antimustashian wall of shame and comedy?
+1.
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: RainyDay on January 29, 2022, 10:32:16 AM
And WTF do you have against gardening?

Do you see the Chief Pilot gardening?  No!

Well when I actually met Prince Charles in 1988 (he was a fundraising sponsor for an "expedition" I had been chosen for) pretty much all he wanted to talk about was his adventures in organic gardening.   And Camilla was just on Gardener's World recently talking about their gardens at Highgrove.   So if  it is a good enough hobby for  the royals I guess it is good enough for little old me!

Thank god, since one of my goals after I FIRE (and NOT on 25k/year) is to spend more time gardening and digging in the dirt.  Maybe build a greenhouse.  Try my hand at mushrooms.  Hydroponics.  Beekeeping.  The natural world is endless in its opportunity.  What I DON'T want to do is go back to a damn cubicle or office!
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: Villanelle on February 01, 2022, 11:23:55 AM
WTF is a "chief pilot"????
Title: Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
Post by: mistymoney on February 12, 2022, 04:07:29 PM
if you really want to get a job, I suggest askamanager.org to find out how to interview to get a job.

It's either the way you present yourself, or a sketchy work history, that is likely the issue. askamanager can help with one, and also how to best represent the other. If you've been doing your own company since high school your skills are likely limited and you have no work references - unless you could do client references, if you have them.

I think you may be equating corporate america with a professional position, but that isn't necessarily the case.