Author Topic: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America  (Read 13741 times)

Skyhigh

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2019, 01:44:43 PM »

FIRE is a culture.

I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.

Employment is also a culture.  I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.

My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career.  It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.

I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.

FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.


Skyhigh

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2019, 01:54:20 PM »
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military.  Yes, you were unlucky in your timing.  But it's been 10 years.  There's no going back.  Get over it.  Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else. 

And most of all STOP WHINING!!!!  You have more options than 98% of people on the planet.  Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?

You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams donít quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.

My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:

FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.

FIRE did absolutely none of those things.

You made decisions, you chose to live in certain ways, YOU produced the outcomes that you are experiencing.

Learn to take some responsibility.

I agree, however, I feel that my family FIRE tradition was a hindrance to my professional development. I did not know how to make it into one of the better corporate positions because I did not have an example to follow. FIRE gave me an out. I maintained an ever-present knowledge that I did not have to put up with the corporate America hassle that people need to endure before having a chance at a better position. I don't have to prostrate myself for the system.  I knew that I can always mow lawns or paint a house and make more money. It was a hindrance.

I was able to endure until I had a family to support. Once I was laid off I slid back into FIRE and here I am.


Malcat

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5779
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2019, 02:00:36 PM »

FIRE is a culture.

I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.

Employment is also a culture.  I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.

My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career.  It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.

I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.

FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.

Literal and total nonsense.

FIRE is so many different cultural realities. You had one upbringing and you are painting an entire financial movement with that brush. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Tons of people in the FIRE community have meaningful professional careers.
I honestly don't even know that you have the same definition of FIRE as everyone else here does.

Okay, so you don't like your upbringing. Guess what, neither did I. I went directly against everything that my family wanted me to do. I left home as a teenager for fuck's sake.

I've already mentioned my debilitating disease that's basically ruined my career and how I've hustled to generate more opportunities. I don't see myself as a victim.

You my friend are not a fucking victim of anything.
So cut the bullshit. I know Syrian refugees who whine less about their circumstances than you do.

Stop it.
Get help.
Move on.

And seriously, stop coming back to a place where you know you are just going to get attacked for your nonsense. Either you're a a fucking troll who is completely wasting our time, or you have far more serious psychological issues than anyone here can help you with.

I hope you are a troll. For your sake, I really do.
If you aren't, then seek help.
I'm not joking, seek professional help. What you are doing on this forum is not what mentally healthy people do.

Malcat

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5779
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2019, 02:02:50 PM »
Dude, stop blaming FIRE for your choice of an industry that can easily cherry-pick its career professionals from the endless stream of experienced pilots leaving the military.  Yes, you were unlucky in your timing.  But it's been 10 years.  There's no going back.  Get over it.  Find another way to use your aviation skills (many options have been suggested to you in past threads) or pivot to something else. 

And most of all STOP WHINING!!!!  You have more options than 98% of people on the planet.  Why are you so fixated on these stories you are telling yourself that seem to make you so miserable?

You are probably right however dreams do not have to make sense all the time. In my experience dreams donít quit or go away just because we want them too. My drive and focus is why I was able to achieve FIRE. It is also why I keep trying to achieve my professional dreams in spite of huge obstacles.

My aim was to learn about corporate culture and what it takes to blend in. As a product of FIRE I do not have those skills and an reaching out to others who do. In my opinion this thread has become about the following:

FIRE is a reason my professional opportunities have diminished. It can hold one back. It erodes ones professional self confidence. There is an opportunity cost to FIRE. Professional credentials are perishable. FIRE life can be very uncomfortable over collecting a paycheck. FIRE life can be lonely. I am unsure if it is a positive example to children.

FIRE did absolutely none of those things.

You made decisions, you chose to live in certain ways, YOU produced the outcomes that you are experiencing.

Learn to take some responsibility.

I agree, however, I feel that my family FIRE tradition was a hindrance to my professional development. I did not know how to make it into one of the better corporate positions because I did not have an example to follow. FIRE gave me an out. I maintained an ever-present knowledge that I did not have to put up with the corporate America hassle that people need to endure before having a chance at a better position. I don't have to prostrate myself for the system.  I knew that I can always mow lawns or paint a house and make more money. It was a hindrance.

I was able to endure until I had a family to support. Once I was laid off I slid back into FIRE and here I am.

Yes, yes. You're a victim of having a financially independent family and becoming financially independent yourself. There was no possible way for you to have any power or autonomy over your own behaviours and life choices.

Makes perfect sense.

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7464
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • The Best Is Yet To Come
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2019, 02:22:17 PM »
So all this is about your insecurity of feeling there is some club of elite corporate drones who went to the right universities and golf at the right clubs and you are jealous you arenít a part of that? Arenít you a bit old to be stressing over trying to fit into the cool kid clique at lunch? Be an adult. Figure out how to be happy with your own path and your own skills and experience. In my view that is one of the best parts of getting older: making peace with who I am and my place in the world. It is exhausting and unfulfilling to constantly be trying to be something you are not.

I agree with the advice of seeking out someone to talk to to help you. You need to find a way to accept yourself and learn to be happy.

Skyhigh

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2019, 02:37:56 PM »

FIRE is a culture.

I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.

Employment is also a culture.  I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.

My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career.  It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.

I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.

FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.

Literal and total nonsense.

FIRE is so many different cultural realities. You had one upbringing and you are painting an entire financial movement with that brush. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Tons of people in the FIRE community have meaningful professional careers.
I honestly don't even know that you have the same definition of FIRE as everyone else here does.

Okay, so you don't like your upbringing. Guess what, neither did I. I went directly against everything that my family wanted me to do. I left home as a teenager for fuck's sake.

I've already mentioned my debilitating disease that's basically ruined my career and how I've hustled to generate more opportunities. I don't see myself as a victim.

You my friend are not a fucking victim of anything.
So cut the bullshit. I know Syrian refugees who whine less about their circumstances than you do.

Stop it.
Get help.
Move on.

And seriously, stop coming back to a place where you know you are just going to get attacked for your nonsense. Either you're a a fucking troll who is completely wasting our time, or you have far more serious psychological issues than anyone here can help you with.

I hope you are a troll. For your sake, I really do.
If you aren't, then seek help.
I'm not joking, seek professional help. What you are doing on this forum is not what mentally healthy people do.

I am thankful for your input and concern. I appreciate everything that you have shared in response to me. However, I do not think that wanting a meaningful career in corporate America is a mental issue. I do not feel that my challenges in changing my professional status are imaginary any more than the challenges that most people here face in regards to achieving FIRE. 

Both are trite first world subjects in comparison to what most face in the developing world. We are lucky to be having such debates when so many are merely trying to feed themselves. I agree, wholeheartedly.


Malcat

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5779
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2019, 02:39:51 PM »

FIRE is a culture.

I grew up in a FIRE family. I instinctively am drawn to habit patterns and to the traditions of FIRE because that is what I habituated to do. Much of what is discussed here is not a revelation to me. It has been my life. What is of interest to me is the group of people here who are trying to leave what seems to me, to be awesome career paths.

Employment is also a culture.  I grew up in a FIRE family. My friends were largely from other FIRE families. As a result, we were not given the subtle and obvious skills and traditions that employment families receive. I don't play golf. I didn't go to the right university. I did not play sports. We were not instructed to join fraternities. I have not been schooled how to go to the right corporate events, dinner parties, and other social clubs where networking happens. A book I read recently explained how the working class has a difficult time breaking into elite corporate positions largely because they do not speak the language. I feel that FIRE is largely a working-class occupation.

My family owned rental properties so that is what I do. My high school friend's families owned gas stations, coin-operated laundry, or wand- car wash businesses. And, they grew up doing the same as their parents. I always wanted to escape the FIRE tradition and have a meaningful career.  It seems that I can't or don't know how to do that. It is my belief that much of the obstacle comes from my FIRE upbringing.

I have children of my own who are reaching adulthood and see the signs that they are potentially going to follow in my path. My aim was to resurrect my professional aspirations as a means of providing an alternative tradition for my children. My father retired before I graduated from college. I don't have the social training that it takes to gain a meaningful position. Whenever I am in an interview situation it is clear that they see something different in my resume and demeanor. They do not see a potential employee but something else. Something they do not understand. I do not fit the culture.

FIRE is a good thing but it is also difficult to escape from. To me, it has been a blessing but also a failure. My aim here was in hopes of understanding how to establish a new tradition. Something that you all seem to know a lot about.

Literal and total nonsense.

FIRE is so many different cultural realities. You had one upbringing and you are painting an entire financial movement with that brush. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Tons of people in the FIRE community have meaningful professional careers.
I honestly don't even know that you have the same definition of FIRE as everyone else here does.

Okay, so you don't like your upbringing. Guess what, neither did I. I went directly against everything that my family wanted me to do. I left home as a teenager for fuck's sake.

I've already mentioned my debilitating disease that's basically ruined my career and how I've hustled to generate more opportunities. I don't see myself as a victim.

You my friend are not a fucking victim of anything.
So cut the bullshit. I know Syrian refugees who whine less about their circumstances than you do.

Stop it.
Get help.
Move on.

And seriously, stop coming back to a place where you know you are just going to get attacked for your nonsense. Either you're a a fucking troll who is completely wasting our time, or you have far more serious psychological issues than anyone here can help you with.

I hope you are a troll. For your sake, I really do.
If you aren't, then seek help.
I'm not joking, seek professional help. What you are doing on this forum is not what mentally healthy people do.

I am thankful for your input and concern. I appreciate everything that you have shared in response to me. However, I do not think that wanting a meaningful career in corporate America is a mental issue. I do not feel that my challenges in changing my professional status are imaginary any more than the challenges that most people here face in regards to achieving FIRE. 

Both are trite first world subjects in comparison to what most face in the developing world. We are lucky to be having such debates when so many are merely trying to feed themselves. I agree, wholeheartedly.

I literally never said that.

jim555

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2581
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2019, 02:40:11 PM »
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

Skyhigh

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2019, 02:42:16 PM »
So all this is about your insecurity of feeling there is some club of elite corporate drones who went to the right universities and golf at the right clubs and you are jealous you arenít a part of that? Arenít you a bit old to be stressing over trying to fit into the cool kid clique at lunch? Be an adult. Figure out how to be happy with your own path and your own skills and experience. In my view that is one of the best parts of getting older: making peace with who I am and my place in the world. It is exhausting and unfulfilling to constantly be trying to be something you are not.

I agree with the advice of seeking out someone to talk to to help you. You need to find a way to accept yourself and learn to be happy.

Thank you for your input.

It's about experiencing an alternative approach to life. Great things can be accomplished by great organizations. I am a big fish in a small pond. If one wants a chance to walk on the moon then they need to be a joiner. They need to be prepared to stand in line. Corporate culture is one of belonging. I don't have that. In my situation, I am the organization. I wear whatever I want and go home at night over socializing to get ahead. It's a different approach to life that I may not be able to accomplish.

Skyhigh

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #59 on: December 21, 2019, 02:44:17 PM »
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

It's possible that I have an experience that most here do not.  It is my understanding that the majority of people here are trying to achieve FIRE.  This thread is about post-fire issues. I have some.

jim555

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2581
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #60 on: December 21, 2019, 02:46:20 PM »
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

It's possible that I have an experience that most here do not.  It is my understanding that the majority of people here are trying to achieve FIRE.  This thread is about post-fire issues. I have some.
Sure, anything you say, troll.

Cpa Cat

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1698
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #61 on: December 21, 2019, 03:01:24 PM »
They tried to make me accept a lower position. However, I have already been down that road and it is a dead end.

So, in reality, FIRE isn't preventing you from working in Corporate America at all. They offered you a job. It just wasn't the exact job you wanted.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

Again, the problem isn't that you're FIRE'd. It's that they don't think you're qualified for the jobs you're applying for.


You know how to get a job in Corporate America. Interview and say yes to the job offer they give you, even if it's less than you think you deserve. If it turns out you're awesome at that lower level job, they will promote you. And so proceeds a career in Corporate America.

The end.

You don't need to play golf, or be in a frat, or whatever you think Corporate Culture is. You just need to suck it up and go to work at a job that wastes your time. Just like millions of other corporate wage slaves. You had an offer to do just that. Next time, take them up on it, and live your fantasy.

seattlecyclone

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5853
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Seattle, WA
    • My blog
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2019, 05:06:00 PM »
They tried to make me accept a lower position. However, I have already been down that road and it is a dead end.

So, in reality, FIRE isn't preventing you from working in Corporate America at all. They offered you a job. It just wasn't the exact job you wanted.

I am trying other similar positions.  However, it seems that employers are looking for things I don't have.

Again, the problem isn't that you're FIRE'd. It's that they don't think you're qualified for the jobs you're applying for.


You know how to get a job in Corporate America. Interview and say yes to the job offer they give you, even if it's less than you think you deserve. If it turns out you're awesome at that lower level job, they will promote you. And so proceeds a career in Corporate America.

The end.

You don't need to play golf, or be in a frat, or whatever you think Corporate Culture is. You just need to suck it up and go to work at a job that wastes your time. Just like millions of other corporate wage slaves. You had an offer to do just that. Next time, take them up on it, and live your fantasy.

Yes, this. Your problem is that you're looking for Meaningful Work in a corporate job. Some corporate jobs exist that fall into that category, but most don't. The jobs you're going to qualify for, today, given your stated experience are not going to be the jobs you seem to be seeking. You have to put up with the BS of those jobs for some time (and excel at them) before you become eligible for the cool stuff. If you're FI it can be very hard to go into work every day at a job you might not think is worth your time, earning money you don't need, putting a smile on your face and pretending your job is awesome, waiting months or years for the right opportunity to present itself. But if you want to climb the corporate ladder you don't get to just skip half the rungs.

friedmmj

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 267
  • Age: 54
  • Location: USA
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #63 on: December 21, 2019, 06:04:40 PM »
The OP is the text book definition of a troll.  He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!

life_travel

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 187
  • Location: Australia
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #64 on: December 21, 2019, 07:29:21 PM »
Trolling or not, not sure OP really understand what FIRE is.
If you HAVE to work ,especially menial labour jobs, you are not financially independent.
OP, you have employees so it means you work, you just don't like your work and want to go back to your old industry.
If by your definition ,you live in constant self deprivation,  if you don't eat out, etc - you are not FI.
So you are actually not FIRE ! Maybe it will help you psychologically to realise that , and start another career.

If you are truely FI, can you sell all the houses, have enough passive income coming in , buy your own plane and start some sort of business based on flying ??

imolina

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 72
  • Location: UAE
  • Canadian expat
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #65 on: December 21, 2019, 09:37:53 PM »
My parents had rental properties while growing up. My dad and mom worked only till I was about 3 years old then FIRED with rental properties, so I never saw them "working", too young to remember. I am an Engineer as so are my siblings working on corporate jobs, so our upbringing did not influence us not to follow a career. My dad was always a big supporter of education and following a career, but he did not have that opportunity while growing up, my mother only finished primary school. My sister does real state with her husband as extra income, but has a full time job as project engineer.
Our family FIRE tradition was NOT a hindrance to my or my siblings professional development.

infromsea

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2019, 01:26:04 PM »
The OP is the text book definition of a troll.  He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!

You could be right.

OR, it could also be that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone AND some of us are so enamored with the concepts/philosophy that we are unwilling to consider other points of view?

I could 100% be wrong here but the OP seems fairly rational to me (having read through many of their other posts) AND they are not suggesting that FIRE is "wrong" or "Broken" or a bad idea for all. I for one appreciate the conversation AND the back and forth. If nothing else, it is an exercise in how to "talk fire" or share the concepts with others and work to "see the logical fallacies" in the POV of another.

We should remember that creative criticism has value (at least it does for me, I'm not so enamored with ANYTHING that I can't be shown the flaws in it). I for one choose not to engage in ideological zealotry to the point that anyone who disagrees with me/my POV is wrong/flawed/a troll... BUT, I could be wrong! :)

Richard Feynman. The first principle is that you must not fool yourself Ė and you are the easiest person to fool.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 01:27:35 PM by infromsea »

sui generis

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2131
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2019, 02:18:54 PM »
The OP is the text book definition of a troll.  He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!

You could be right.

OR, it could also be that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone AND some of us are so enamored with the concepts/philosophy that we are unwilling to consider other points of view?

They could be right about him being a troll AND it's true that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone.

I could 100% be wrong here but the OP seems fairly rational to me (having read through many of their other posts) AND they are not suggesting that FIRE is "wrong" or "Broken" or a bad idea for all. I for one appreciate the conversation AND the back and forth. If nothing else, it is an exercise in how to "talk fire" or share the concepts with others and work to "see the logical fallacies" in the POV of another.


Yeah, I do think you are...well, I won't say 100% wrong, but the OP has repeatedly made blanket statements about how bad FIRE is (rather than how it has fostered bad habits for him personally) and actually keeps bizarrely blaming FIRE for things that no one by any stretch of the imagination could blame FIRE for.  He isn't here to engage in a genuine conversation about how the movement should avoid hubris and consider self-examination and reflection in certain areas.  He's possibly just trolling and, whether genuine or not, just repeatedly whines about his personal situation and how abused he has been by it, lamenting his ability to do anything about it.  He  responds only to people that post suggestions with which he can disagree while ignoring all the rest that post genuinely good advice and/or thoughtful critiques or discussion.  This is absolutely not about how to improve or reform the FIRE movement, but about misplaced blame for his personal situation.

Almost no one (I hesitate to be absolute without a careful review of all posts, but my memory is that no one) has come at him with ideological zealotry.  Rather people have made many, many good suggestions about how he can end his failed FIRE attempt and, more broadly, pursue happiness in a number of ways, from those he claims to want to pursue, to possible avenues he has not yet considered.  Some (including myself) have protested that he has painted too broad a brush about FIRE when he claims it is meaningless and actually in some ways bad for human beings to pursue by sharing some information about how in can be meaningful and valuable and/or has been for us personally.  Yet that has not stopped him from continuing on with blaming FIRE for all his woes and insinuating that that means it's bad for everyone.  His topics have literally been the opposite of the FIRE proponents being ideologically zealous, with everyone at first attempting to be genuinely helpful, creative and thoughtful, and him only repeating the same claims and woe ad nauseam. 

I hate to add even another post to his threads to keep them alive and continue giving him attention, but I just can't let it be said that the other posters here are the ideological zealous ones while he is just stoking thoughtful discussion.  I could not disagree more and really see only the opposite in his various threads.

infromsea

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2019, 04:38:58 PM »
The OP is the text book definition of a troll.  He is really getting his rocks off with this thread!

You could be right.

OR, it could also be that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone AND some of us are so enamored with the concepts/philosophy that we are unwilling to consider other points of view?

They could be right about him being a troll AND it's true that FIRE isn't "right" for everyone.

I could 100% be wrong here but the OP seems fairly rational to me (having read through many of their other posts) AND they are not suggesting that FIRE is "wrong" or "Broken" or a bad idea for all. I for one appreciate the conversation AND the back and forth. If nothing else, it is an exercise in how to "talk fire" or share the concepts with others and work to "see the logical fallacies" in the POV of another.


Yeah, I do think you are...well, I won't say 100% wrong, but the OP has repeatedly made blanket statements about how bad FIRE is (rather than how it has fostered bad habits for him personally) and actually keeps bizarrely blaming FIRE for things that no one by any stretch of the imagination could blame FIRE for.  He isn't here to engage in a genuine conversation about how the movement should avoid hubris and consider self-examination and reflection in certain areas.  He's possibly just trolling and, whether genuine or not, just repeatedly whines about his personal situation and how abused he has been by it, lamenting his ability to do anything about it.  He  responds only to people that post suggestions with which he can disagree while ignoring all the rest that post genuinely good advice and/or thoughtful critiques or discussion.  This is absolutely not about how to improve or reform the FIRE movement, but about misplaced blame for his personal situation.

Almost no one (I hesitate to be absolute without a careful review of all posts, but my memory is that no one) has come at him with ideological zealotry.  Rather people have made many, many good suggestions about how he can end his failed FIRE attempt and, more broadly, pursue happiness in a number of ways, from those he claims to want to pursue, to possible avenues he has not yet considered.  Some (including myself) have protested that he has painted too broad a brush about FIRE when he claims it is meaningless and actually in some ways bad for human beings to pursue by sharing some information about how in can be meaningful and valuable and/or has been for us personally.  Yet that has not stopped him from continuing on with blaming FIRE for all his woes and insinuating that that means it's bad for everyone.  His topics have literally been the opposite of the FIRE proponents being ideologically zealous, with everyone at first attempting to be genuinely helpful, creative and thoughtful, and him only repeating the same claims and woe ad nauseam. 

I hate to add even another post to his threads to keep them alive and continue giving him attention, but I just can't let it be said that the other posters here are the ideological zealous ones while he is just stoking thoughtful discussion.  I could not disagree more and really see only the opposite in his various threads.

Well said!

I don't have a single retort of value as I have many of the same criticisms of the OP's responses/posts etc.

I am keeping an open mind that the OP isn't a troll, that they honestly think it would be better to be "back inside the matrix" and I am not judging them for that. I guess I'm just a little more patient in my old age...

APowers

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1335
  • Location: Colorado
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2019, 08:57:30 PM »
This thread. Oh my.

Update: I just took a look at Pete's blog and it seems like he does a lot of the same things. I build/remodel and manage real estate. My kids did not even know that pizza could be delivered until recently. We never go out to eat, no TV, and live a financially deprived life. Our cars are old. It's the only life I have known. Am I missing something?

On the upside: Most everything I work on is something that I own. I live where I want and largely how I want. My kids grew up without going to daycare. Since being laid off I have slept in my own bed and am not forced to travel much. I go to sleep when I am tired and get up when rested (unless the kids have school). I never get stuck in traffic jams. I am the master of my days. All it took in trade were my professional dreams and that bothers me at times.

The contradictions. What even? You live where and how you want, but you live a financially deprived life?....You *want* to live a deprived life? Dude. No-one who describes their life as "deprived" is living the way they want to. Go back to work and spend money endlessly like a carefree employee, if that's what you want. Get help. Do something.

*snip*

However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.

It seems like you characterize a majority of FIRE philosophy as some kind of low-income scrimping and near-homelessness financial deprivation. Is that how you're living? Should we call someone to check on you?

There are 33,007 registered members on this forum. Let's assume that only 5% actually post relatively regularly. That's 1,650 people. Do you know how many of us are working at this from a low-income/lean-FIRE angle? According to this poll, only about 55. FIFTY. FIVE. What do you think the other 1,600 people are doing? Trying to somehow contain their exploding volcanoes of cash, is what. I don't believe for a second that a lot of what is discussed here is about the virtues of accepting an extremely low standard of living. The vast majority of people here, both pre-FIRE and post-FIRE are doing very well for themselves and intend to continue doing so.

BFGirl

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 730
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #70 on: December 23, 2019, 02:10:37 PM »
OP.  Can you rebrand yourself as a consultant in some area of expertise valued by corporate entities?  Can you take on some freelance type work?  If you can impress a client, maybe that will get your foot in the door to a full time job.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5587
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #71 on: December 24, 2019, 02:33:33 PM »
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...

dougules

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2295
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2019, 01:04:04 PM »
I am thankful for your input and concern. I appreciate everything that you have shared in response to me. However, I do not think that wanting a meaningful career in corporate America is a mental issue. I do not feel that my challenges in changing my professional status are imaginary any more than the challenges that most people here face in regards to achieving FIRE. 

Both are trite first world subjects in comparison to what most face in the developing world. We are lucky to be having such debates when so many are merely trying to feed themselves. I agree, wholeheartedly.

I really recommend going to see a doctor or a therapist for your mental health.  Wanting to be in a meaningful career isn't at all a bad thing.  It's your writing style that sounds like somebody who is struggling against a mood disorder.  I'm not trying to be mean.  I would write the same thing if you were hinting at potential symptoms of cancer or diabetes.

If you're struggling with a mood disorder, it will make it very difficult to do well in an interview or network to get a job.  If you get your health under control it will make it much easier. 

spartana

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2186
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2019, 09:21:06 AM »
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...
He's been on here since 2014 and it seems most of the threads he started were in the same vain as this one so he probably isn't doing the same under another user name. The only thing I find strange is his new anti-FIRE threads also pop up about the same time the Financial Samari puts out a new anti-FIRE blog post. Hmmm....???

Anyways I think if hasn't found what he wants after almost 6 years its probably not going to happen and time to let go of the angst and enjoy his life.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 09:22:56 AM by spartana »

Skyhigh

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2019, 11:22:57 AM »
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...
He's been on here since 2014 and it seems most of the threads he started were in the same vain as this one so he probably isn't doing the same under another user name. The only thing I find strange is his new anti-FIRE threads also pop up about the same time the Financial Samari puts out a new anti-FIRE blog post. Hmmm....???

Anyways I think if hasn't found what he wants after almost 6 years its probably not going to happen and time to let go of the angst and enjoy his life.

The job market has opened up since I started here. Since then I have been trying to achieve the career objective that has been underway for a very long time now. I very much understand the wisdom of ďgiving upĒ and wish I could do that. One of my points here is that I am not interested in more retirement life.

I may not achieve my goal but the effort has value. Apart from my professional dreams I have several other issues with FIRE. I donít think it is healthy for children to grow up with idle FIRE parents. It is important for them to see me struggle and try. It is unwise to provide an example of self indulgence to kids. Everyone needs to have something they contribute to life that is meaningful. People who are able too achieve FIRE tend to be intelligent, well-educated, and goal oriented. How does it serve the individual to cease their vital work function, or worse, to demote oneself to that of a manual laborer? 

Skyhigh

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #75 on: December 28, 2019, 11:57:44 AM »
There are some very real consequences to achieving FIRE

I have a friend who was able to achieve FIRE at a very young age thanks to a successful retail venture. He grew his business to a point where he was able to sell it and live off his real estate investments and small fortune. As a result he now spends his days doing whatever he wants while his peers and siblings are still in the early stages of their careers.

He has been retired for two years now and melancholy is setting in. During the holidays everyone likes to share life events from the previous year. My FIRE buddy can share his Xbox accomplishments. Work events are a big part of ones life. It is easy to imagine how our lives would be different in FIRE. We all have great plans to climb mountains, write books, or volunteer for Doctors Without Borders. It is all great but that enthusiasm usually dims fairly quickly until you end up spending the day on the couch.

FIRE takes a toll on ones ego and relationships. We are not meant to burn our days in self-indulgent pursuits. Humans are notoriously efficient. Take away the quest for fire (pun intended) and we tend to sit down. We shouldnít ever stop working at our peak abilities but it would be nice to be able to work less. I am a long time veteran of FIRE and have been through all the stages to find myself back at the beginning.

My aim is to go back to work in the capacity that I aspired to as a younger person. I already work two jobs in my field. It is incredibly satisfying to receive a paycheck again. I am making progress towards my professional aspiration, and may not reach it, but I am glad to be back in the flow of life again.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 11:59:29 AM by Skyhigh »

Skyhigh

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Post FIRE self sabotage
« Reply #76 on: December 28, 2019, 12:21:26 PM »


Another issue to be aware of is self-sabotage post FIRE.

FIRE can lead to depression, social isolation, and a loss of self esteem. People tend to be un-able to consciously recognize the source of their malaise and the sub-conscious takes over to financially sabotage ones FIRE status so that they have to go back to work. I have seen it happen many times. I am always on the look out for financial FIRE sabotage myself.

Boredom can also lead to financial self-sabotage. I have seen plenty of others blow their financial accomplishments on horses, sailboats, and airplanes because they couldnít fill their time with meaningful accomplishments.

Increased risk taking can lead to financial FIRE sabotage. It seems that the longer one is in FIRE the more they are willing to accept risk and can expose themselves to disaster. It could be from boredom, over confidence, or a subconscious attempt to self destruct. I canít explain it but it seems to happen a lot.

Relationship self destruction is another means of FIRE destruction. Sometimes a couple is ready to separate however the carefully created FIRE system is dependent upon both parties. One of the two can subconsciously destroy that which is holding them together in an attempt to get out. 

jim555

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2581
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2019, 01:15:47 PM »
Maybe your head is the problem and not FIRE.  I don't see scores of others who have FIREd making the same complaints as you. 

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7464
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • The Best Is Yet To Come
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2019, 02:08:22 PM »
I agree with you that sitting around all day doing nothing productive will be a bad role model for your kids and lead to depression and loneliness. I think the reason you are getting so much pushback here is because that seems to be your vision of FIRE while that is pretty much the opposite of what the rest of us think FIRE is/will be. MMM himself isnít sitting around on his ass and he isnít advocating anyone else do either.

There are a thousand ways to be productive and useful and learn and be interesting and social and a good role model and make the world (or just your tiny corner of the world) a better place that Does Not involve paid professional corporate work.

As an aside, I think your slam on manual laborers is fairly insulting. You really think the person repairing your utility pole or fixing your water pipe isnít doing something worthwhile?

The rest of us look forward to FIRE as a chance to finally devote time and energy to the things that we find meaningful in life without work getting in t he way. For those rarer birds for whom work is the most meaningful thing out there, more power to you. Keep on keeping on. But that isnít most of us.

I hope you find what you look for. I am pretty sure that even if you did find the amazing corporate job you would soon find that it doesnít fill the hole in your life either, but maybe I am wrong.

spartana

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2186
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #79 on: December 28, 2019, 09:21:40 PM »
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...
He's been on here since 2014 and it seems most of the threads he started were in the same vain as this one so he probably isn't doing the same under another user name. The only thing I find strange is his new anti-FIRE threads also pop up about the same time the Financial Samari puts out a new anti-FIRE blog post. Hmmm....???

Anyways I think if hasn't found what he wants after almost 6 years its probably not going to happen and time to let go of the angst and enjoy his life.

The job market has opened up since I started here. Since then I have been trying to achieve the career objective that has been underway for a very long time now. I very much understand the wisdom of “giving up” and wish I could do that. One of my points here is that I am not interested in more retirement life.

I may not achieve my goal but the effort has value. Apart from my professional dreams I have several other issues with FIRE. I don’t think it is healthy for children to grow up with idle FIRE parents. It is important for them to see me struggle and try. It is unwise to provide an example of self indulgence to kids. Everyone needs to have something they contribute to life that is meaningful. People who are able too achieve FIRE tend to be intelligent, well-educated, and goal oriented. How does it serve the individual to cease their vital work function, or worse, to demote oneself to that of a manual laborer?
I won't go into you personal beliefs on FIRE as they vastly differ from my personal experiences and those of most FIREd people I know.

Just want to comment that "letting go of the angst" about your job situation is very different from "giving up". If it is that important to you then continue to search for what you want. That doesn't mean you need to wrap your whole being into your search.and stress about it to the point you are. Enjoy what you have attained already and follow your dreams with a more relaxed attitude. Yout seem to be utterly miserable and that's just no way to live.

Malcat

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5779
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #80 on: December 29, 2019, 07:08:39 AM »
Don't feed the troll.  He is obviously trolling here.  Go on a post-FIRE board and tell them how bad FIRE is, its funny.

SkyHigh's writing style does remind me of another poster who had many of the same complaints but from the other side. He/she took over a thread and whined about how it was impossible to FIRE. Too bad I can't remember the thread...
He's been on here since 2014 and it seems most of the threads he started were in the same vain as this one so he probably isn't doing the same under another user name. The only thing I find strange is his new anti-FIRE threads also pop up about the same time the Financial Samari puts out a new anti-FIRE blog post. Hmmm....???

Anyways I think if hasn't found what he wants after almost 6 years its probably not going to happen and time to let go of the angst and enjoy his life.

The job market has opened up since I started here. Since then I have been trying to achieve the career objective that has been underway for a very long time now. I very much understand the wisdom of ďgiving upĒ and wish I could do that. One of my points here is that I am not interested in more retirement life.

I may not achieve my goal but the effort has value. Apart from my professional dreams I have several other issues with FIRE. I donít think it is healthy for children to grow up with idle FIRE parents. It is important for them to see me struggle and try. It is unwise to provide an example of self indulgence to kids. Everyone needs to have something they contribute to life that is meaningful. People who are able too achieve FIRE tend to be intelligent, well-educated, and goal oriented. How does it serve the individual to cease their vital work function, or worse, to demote oneself to that of a manual laborer?
I won't go into you personal beliefs on FIRE as they vastly differ from my personal experiences and those of most FIREd people I know.

Just want to comment that "letting go of the angst" about your job situation is very different from "giving up". If it is that important to you then continue to search for what you want. That doesn't mean you need to wrap your whole being into your search.and stress about it to the point you are. Enjoy what you have attained already and follow your dreams with a more relaxed attitude. Yout seem to be utterly miserable and that's just no way to live.

Yep.

You seem to just want to double down on the whole hating your life and blaming it on what you think FIRE is.

That's no way to live.

DaMa

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 575
Re: Post FIRE self sabotage
« Reply #81 on: December 29, 2019, 09:33:15 AM »


Another issue to be aware of is self-sabotage post FIRE.

FIRE can lead to depression, social isolation, and a loss of self esteem. People tend to be un-able to consciously recognize the source of their malaise and the sub-conscious takes over to financially sabotage ones FIRE status so that they have to go back to work. I have seen it happen many times. I am always on the look out for financial FIRE sabotage myself.

Boredom can also lead to financial self-sabotage. I have seen plenty of others blow their financial accomplishments on horses, sailboats, and airplanes because they couldnít fill their time with meaningful accomplishments.

Increased risk taking can lead to financial FIRE sabotage. It seems that the longer one is in FIRE the more they are willing to accept risk and can expose themselves to disaster. It could be from boredom, over confidence, or a subconscious attempt to self destruct. I canít explain it but it seems to happen a lot.

Relationship self destruction is another means of FIRE destruction. Sometimes a couple is ready to separate however the carefully created FIRE system is dependent upon both parties. One of the two can subconsciously destroy that which is holding them together in an attempt to get out.

I gotta say, I found all this to be true of WORKING in CORPORATE America.  FIre was a large part of my cure. 

Toxic work environment can lead to depression, social isolation, and a loss of self esteem.
Boredom or lack of fulfillment AT WORK can also lead to financial self-sabotage.  (Retail therapy, expensive vacations, etc.)
Sometimes a couple is ready to separate however the MORTGAGE is dependent upon both parties.

What you attribute to FIRE, many of us can attribute to stressful corporate jobs.

If you have a break in employment, even a short one, you are immediately suspect.  I would be looking for any sign of emotionally instability.  If I picked up on any of this in an interview, I wouldn't hire you.

Skyhigh

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 245
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2019, 11:19:07 AM »

It is possible that I have a different perspective since I was forced into FIRE by an underperforming career.

Until 2015 my last paycheck was in 2002. In 2015 I started back to work in a supporting role part-time. I was forced into FIRE against my will at a young age. Thanks to FIRE I did not have to take the crummy jobs that others had to in order to work my way back in. I did not have to live in an urban setting where more opportunities exist. As a result of FIRE, I removed myself from the stream of life and ducked all the awfulness that comes during difficult economic times and raised my family in peace. A consequence of that was the death of my professional dreams. There is a price to FIRE that many here may not have experienced. If I didn't have a family to consider I would have remained in the path of opportunity until I achieved my goals. FIRE made it so that I did not have to do that. FIRE is a reason why my professional dreams failed to materialize.

Another issue I believe is that FIRE is Financial Independence Retire Early.  I don't know many of those who are commenting here but I get the feeling that you are well past 35. Being retired at 55 is socially acceptable. Being retired at 25 or 35 is very much not. I also do not know what your FIRE status is. Many here are still trying to achieve FIRE. Living FIRE as a younger person is a different experience than when one is retired and past a meaningful career. As previously mentioned, a career is an important component of one's ego. I have spent most of my adult life in FIRE and to me it feels like a wasted life. My FIRE peers are similar to me. I have witnessed the consequences of FIRE manifest itself many times. At first, it is a dream. A few years in and it is boring. A few years after that and it can really blow.

Everyone here knows my situation and story. I am at the disadvantage in that I know very little about you. Others here have asked me to qualify my remarks and I have to the best of my ability. Consider yourself at a dinner party at 32 and someone asks your profession and you tell them that you are retired or are self-employed. It is lonely. It lacks satisfaction. It does not seem to be the best use of one's natural abilities. FIRE makes it difficult to establish new relationships.  It is not the best example for children to grow up with. It makes it difficult to develop new friendships. Days off lose their meaning. I don't ever intend to retire.

On the upside of FIRE: I live under my own direction and am not the slave to any situation. Since FIRE our children have never known daycare, a baby sitter, or a day without both their parents. We live where and how we want. We have pursued hobbies until we became sick of them. All that is cool.

jim555

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2581
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2019, 11:38:54 AM »
Stop blaming FIRE and start blaming yourself.  You are responsible for your own life.  Your victim card is hereby revoked.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 11:42:03 AM by jim555 »

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7464
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • The Best Is Yet To Come
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2019, 12:58:10 PM »
Agree. Go do something meaningful with your life. It doesnít have to be paid corporate work.

Iím 37 and have reached FI. I feel I checked the box for corporate professional career. Iím glad I had that chance, but there are more meaningful things out there in life that await and Iím looking forward to exploring that space. Maybe you canít take our word for it but you really arenít missing that much.

Malcat

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5779
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2019, 01:10:19 PM »
You seem to think that if you just repeat yourself enough times, in enough ways, that eventually we will all understand your point and we'll finally see what you've been trying to say all along.

Well, we see it, we've seen it from the very beginning. Your points are extremely clear, and rather passionately stated.

We disagree with you anyway.
We will always disagree with you.
No one here will ever see you as a victim of being financially independent. Period.

You will never get the sympathy or validation that you seek, and by coming back over and over for the exact same criticism and rejection, I can't fathom what that's doing to your poor psyche.

Stop this.
It is NOT healthy.

bluecollarmusician

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2019, 11:36:15 AM »
This is a funny sort of thread... caught my eye- and I read through it.

@Skyhigh this really does read as if you are a brilliant troll... which I don't think you are, but just so you know- to an unbiased 3rd party stepping in, your argument seems a little unfocused.   

But I WHOLE-HEARTEDLY AGREE WITH YOU!! FIRE is certainly no silver bullet to meet all your social/personal/live dreams/goals.  Really all financial freedom can do is give you exactly that- freedom to pursue what you wish without (or with less concern) about the financial viability.  It sounds like for you it has been golden handcuffs... like many people I knew in the military who hate it, and bitch and moan all day every day but are way to scared to do anything different... so they stay until 20 and then immediately get a GS position and continue to hate it forever.  (*hint, the problem isn't the job.... it's those people.). Incidentally- I think *many if not most* could care less about RE... in most cases it just doesn't apply- few plan to never earn another dollar.  Most want freedom to leave a job they are very unhappy in- and FI allows them to do it. (Incidentally- you sound just like that btw- when you talk of golden handcuffs... that's what people tend think about their high dollar jobs.  Weird?  If you are RE I don't understand how you are handcuffed to it?  It sounds more like you are self-employed in a field you don't enjoy.) Don't know why you are hung up on that?  Or maybe you are just warning people that RE isn't all it's cracked up to be?  Maybe you thought it would be awesome?   In any event- if you don't like it, don't do it!!!

A couple of thoughts- (and I don't post often around here!!)

1) FIRE didn't ruin your career or prevent you pursuing it- you made a different choice, you went a different route.  Other people dug into the trenches, and my guess is those are the people you are competing with for the jobs now.  They dug into the suck and are now better positioned for the jobs you want. Whether you chose to do was for your family, or to avoid other perceived unpleasantness.... basically, you made a choice.  It's cool.  No biggie- you can't do EVERYTHING... you had to make some tough choices and you did.  The world is littered with people who wanted to play 2nd base in the majors, or be a rock star opening for Billy Joel (both the dreams I WANTED to chase...) When those things didn't work out, guess what- people move on and do something different.  You wanted a job in a competitive and highly selective industry...it didn't happen for you and so you went a different direction. 

2) If you don't like doing bike rides and gardening, so what?  If you want a job, go get one.  Want to do something meaningful?  Go do it.  Nothing stopping you.  Being a corporate drone isn't doing something meaningful.  Just want to make money?  Plenty of jobs will let you do that.  If you can't because your life is too comfortable, or your family doesn't want you to do something different... err.... well... sorry, that's different situation.

 

3) The grass is always greener- you express concern over if something happens to your business/income you have no backup... most people in a job have no back-up either, and no control over when or how their employment will cease... sure it's great to collect that fat paycheck and not worry about the big  picture... that's what everyone Enron thought right up until the scandal broke- or the 10 million people who found themselves without jobs in 2007-2009.  You yourself were a victim (apparently) of job loss.

4) Incidentally how were you "Forced" into FIRE?  Sounds like a pretty clear choice to me... like you chose to go that route... is there a reason you couldn't have transitioned to another field?  I have reinvented myself plenty of times.... because it's hard to make a living as a musician... I have made far more money in RE and investing than I ever have from being a musician- but that is still what I consider my vocation.

FIRE is not panacea- I don't think many argue that it is.  In your case you seem to be blaming it... but you seem to cite is as the only other possible option to the one job you wanted.  Sorry, buddy- there are plenty of people who don't get their dream job.  I don't think anyone would have sympathy if you came on here and said " I always wanted to be a rock star, but it was really difficult to get a break, so I went and became FIRE because I had to, and now I can't seem to get a job opening for Taylor Swift... they only want to offer me small clubs...I don't want to play small clubs because it is hard work and it suck, and isn't what I want. Basically, FIRE is to blame for this."  Some industries are tough.  They just are.  If you love what you do- then find a way to do it.  If you won't ever have your dream job- that sucks... but that's just how it goes sometimes. FIRE isn't your problem, for sure.  And if you want something- it sounds like you are a capable business builder- pursue something else.

There is no secret code (or handshake or special way of talking) that you alluded to in an earlier post.  It's about putting in the time, and being ready for your big break.  If you love to fly, then make it happen- it might take risks that you are unwilling to take.  Acknowledge that- you are where you are because of what you CHOSE.   If you aren't doing what you want... then do something different.  If you aren't where you want to be go somewhere else.  FIRE isn't the be all end all.  Nothing is. But I humbly submit it isn't your problem. 

Good luck, friend.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 11:41:23 AM by bluecollarmusician »

blue_green_sparks

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 172
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #87 on: December 31, 2019, 11:59:09 AM »
Yeah, being a middle manager in corporate America was great. After someone stormed out or got fired I would hide a hammer under my desk for my 2nd story window and tie a rope to my desk so I could escape. When a female would close the door to my office I would kindly ask her to keep it open. I would give my best estimate and schedule and have them cut in half and then get chewed out when late or over. Needed 69 passwords and had to change them every few weeks. The direction from the top was a pendulum.....for example 100% customer focus one week and then 6 months later be tougher on the customer...There are those magic moments when it does all come together but the mental, physical, and emotional cost is high. The movie "Office Space" is a documentary really.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2019, 12:10:39 PM by blue_green_sparks »

Runrooster

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 255
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2019, 04:22:16 PM »
I agree with you that sitting around all day doing nothing productive will be a bad role model for your kids and lead to depression and loneliness.

What strikes me about SkyHigh is that he's completely discounting the value of his being a SAH Dad.  If he thinks FIRE is bad, what is his opinion of the SAHM/D in the world who have no exciting corporate stories to tell?  If they're supporting a functioning family through lots of manual labor and driving, is this a bad role model and meaningless?

bluecollarmusician

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 408
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2019, 05:44:44 PM »
He isn't devaluing... He just wanted to do something else.  Nothing wrong with that...

ysette9

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7464
  • Location: Bay Area, CA
    • The Best Is Yet To Come
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #90 on: December 31, 2019, 07:02:49 PM »
He isn't devaluing... He just wanted to do something else.  Nothing wrong with that...
Actually he has spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince us that FIRE is the root of many evils. It is his sweeping generalizations to other people that has led to many of us pushing back so much. If his observations were limited to his own experience with FIRE then I donít think any of us would have a problem with it.

Telecaster

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2472
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #91 on: January 01, 2020, 06:47:38 PM »
He isn't devaluing... He just wanted to do something else.  Nothing wrong with that...

Everybody is fine with the "do something else" part.  In order to the prestigious corporate job the OP wants, he needs to do some combination of the following things:

--Take crap jobs in his industry and work his way up

--Improve his training/education level

--Volunteer/network to improve his social/business connections

And probably a few other things as well. 

The OP has stated he flat refuses to do anything that will improve his employment prospects.    He wants a plumb corporate job handed to him without having the requisite qualifications or track record of success.   Not going to happen. No easy way to break that to him.

Villanelle

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4005
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #92 on: January 01, 2020, 07:30:09 PM »
So what *are* you willing to do to get this corporate job you want? 

It seems to me like you don't want to do anything hard; you just want to magically have that job.  Yet instead of realizing that the reason you have very little chance of getting that job is that you aren't willing to do the things it takes for most people to get that type of position, you blame culture, your parents, and FIRE. 

Maybe if mommy and daddy are old/older money and have c-suite jobs, the hard work isn't necessary.  But that doesn't apply to 98% of the US population.  The rest of us start at lower jobs, or by volunteering, and hustle on weekends to earn a certification or learn a new skill.  And we still get passed over for promotions several times before hopefully getting them, and then the hustle just refocuses. 

My dad retired from a C-level job.  He got it by joining the air force doing something shitty, they something less shitty, then getting a masters degree, then doing more jobs, then leaving the air force and getting a civilian job, and kicking ass there and getting promoted a couple times. 

That's probably a fairly typical path to corporate success.  But you seem unwilling to do the first 90% of that.

spartana

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2186
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #93 on: January 02, 2020, 09:32:10 AM »
He isn't devaluing... He just wanted to do something else.  Nothing wrong with that...
Actually he has spent a lot of time and energy trying to convince us that FIRE is the root of many evils. It is his sweeping generalizations to other people that has led to many of us pushing back so much. If his observations were limited to his own experience with FIRE then I don’t think any of us would have a problem with it.
Yes this is what I also have a problem with. I've been FIREd a long time and it is pretty damn glorious! I hate to see others think Skyhighs experiences are the norm.

MoMoneyFewerProblems

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #94 on: January 02, 2020, 10:09:30 AM »
This is 100% a you problem; both your lack of enjoyment of life and inability to land a job. Once you've secured an interview (Assuming it's with the department looking to hire, not HR, or at least not primarily HR) your resume is irrelevant. Get a book on interviewing in your chosen field. Improve you. You might well be coming off as smug in your interviews. If you are as "accomplished" and "highly experienced" as you claim to be, it's almost certainly a fit issue. You need to convince those interviewing not only that you are qualified for the job, but that they will enjoy working with you. Similarly, early retirement, and "regular" retirement for that matter, doesn't need to be self indulgent. It's awful for some, and a whole new opportunity for others. Those that are unhealthy in retirement probably weren't very healthy while working, it was just far easier to hide behind the mask of their daily grind. This is totally an issue with your personal actions and outlook. Frankly, I don't see any indication that you will be any happier as a "corporate slave" than you are now based on your comments and interactions here. It seems you are looking outward for happiness, when your should be looking inward.

MoMoneyFewerProblems

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #95 on: January 02, 2020, 10:17:14 AM »
FIRE is a spectrum.

My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.

I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying “here is that twenty bucks I owe you”.

He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point or how it detracts in any way from my point that FIRE itself isn't the problem. That the person who is living their life makes decisions that impact their future options.

What on earth does your 22 year old nephew knowing where to get free wifi have to do with that?
His 22 year old nephew seems to be what he likes to call "FIRE" because he can skateboard and live in his van mooching off the library's public wifi and "public" outlets (Not so sure it's "public" if you have to specify "unguarded") without needing to hold down a job. Anybody that has a paid for van and is okay with spending $20 per week on food can do this. I suspect what his nephew considers "FIRE" most casual onlookers would call "homeless." Most retirees don't have to worry about being "bothered" by the police at night. If we got a true snapshot of his financial situation, I suspect very few here would regard him as anything related to FIRE. Rather, he simply chooses not to work and lives in a van.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 10:20:03 AM by MoMoneyFewerProblems »

dougules

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2295
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #96 on: January 02, 2020, 10:28:45 AM »
Why do you hold corporate jobs in such high regard?  Honestly it makes you sound a little troll-ish.  Some corporate jobs really do give a sense of purpose, but helping MegaCorps turn out more cheap plastic trinkets isn't a very good source of meaning and satisfaction.

There are no end of good causes that can give a person purpose that just can't afford to pay someone enough to live.  Anybody that's lost in FIRE and searching for meaning or companionship could volunteer at an animal rescue, tutor disadvantaged kids, cook at a soup kitchen, fight invasive species, run for a local political office, visit the elderly in nursing homes, help immigrants learn English, pick up litter, build wheelchair ramps.  There's no end to it.   

Honestly it sounds like you're worried about social status.  You don't need a big paycheck for that.  You need therapy and a different circle of friends.

Eowynd

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 162
  • Age: 29
  • Location: Michigan
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2020, 12:04:16 PM »
So what *are* you willing to do to get this corporate job you want? 

It seems to me like you don't want to do anything hard; you just want to magically have that job.  Yet instead of realizing that the reason you have very little chance of getting that job is that you aren't willing to do the things it takes for most people to get that type of position, you blame culture, your parents, and FIRE. 

This is an important point.  @Skyhigh, if you want a corporate job then you need to be willing to do what everyone else does in order to get one.  I went to college, studied hard, got good grades in a highly marketable field (mechanical engineering) and then got hired into one of those nice corporate 9-5 jobs that you seem to want so bad.

Do you have a highly marketable college degree (i.e. something that is in demand by the corporate employers that you want to work for)?  If not, go back to college and get another degree.  If nothing else, it proves that you are willing to work towards what you say you want.  After you have a marketable degree then you have to keep applying to companies and going on interviews until someone gives you a job.

As a side note, you are not too old to go back to college.  My grandmother earned a college degree by going to night school while raising 4 school-aged children and working full time.  It was hard on the kids (especially my mother since she was the only girl) but it was worth it for my grandmother so she got it done.

People do all this work because they absolutely need a job in order to live.  You have a choice.  If you don't want to put in the necessary work to get to a corporate job then put that effort into figuring out some way to enjoy your FIREd life.

Simpli-Fi

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 199
Re: Escape FIRE - How to get a job in corporate America
« Reply #98 on: January 05, 2020, 06:02:21 AM »
FIRE is a spectrum.

My nephew achieved FIRE at 22. He is very frugal and knows to park his van near the library during the day within reach of the free WiFi. He knows where every unguarded public outlet is in the city so that he can charge his phone. At night he has a list of places to park where the police are less likely to disturb him.

I always know when he is home by the condensation that builds up on the inside of the glass on his van. He is effectively retired and does whatever he wants with his days such as skateboarding and hanging out with other street urchins. He largely lives off of handouts from the government and from occasional work pulling out urine soaked carpet for a local flooring installer. I toss him some money at times however he never asks for it. I frame it by saying ďhere is that twenty bucks I owe youĒ.

He has pride and is comfortable with his lifestyle. He has achieved FIRE. However, I don't think his willingness to accept an extremely low standard of living is a virtue. A lot of what is discussed here seems like a similar philosophy to me.

I'm not quite sure I understand your point or how it detracts in any way from my point that FIRE itself isn't the problem. That the person who is living their life makes decisions that impact their future options.

What on earth does your 22 year old nephew knowing where to get free wifi have to do with that?
His 22 year old nephew seems to be what he likes to call "FIRE" because he can skateboard and live in his van mooching off the library's public wifi and "public" outlets (Not so sure it's "public" if you have to specify "unguarded") without needing to hold down a job. Anybody that has a paid for van and is okay with spending $20 per week on food can do this. I suspect what his nephew considers "FIRE" most casual onlookers would call "homeless." Most retirees don't have to worry about being "bothered" by the police at night. If we got a true snapshot of his financial situation, I suspect very few here would regard him as anything related to FIRE. Rather, he simply chooses not to work and lives in a van.
This is what nailed the troll for me.  If you think this is FIRE, find a different forum to seek employment