The beatles Case Study

[Rezdent]

Beatles
Just a word of caution.  Don't get stuck.

What I am referring to is usually called "analysis paralysis".  You ask questions, get advice.  Ask more questions, more advice.  Repeat.  Repeat.
This feels good because it feels like you are addressing problems.  But the feeling is not accurate.

You must take action.  Action is harder.  Action sucks.
Posting a receipt is not action.  It is an autopsy of what happened,and can get you advice on how to improve, but it isn't action.

Calling a CPA or credit counselor today is action.  Listing the rent house is action.  Calling and cancelling massages are action.  Actually telling coworkers today that the free lunch ended last week is action.

If you are serious - don't mistake analysis for action.  Dont let today slip past without action.  Take action today.  And again tomorrow.

[Laura33]

6. I sure hope you aren't spending any money on entertainment. From now on, the library, free parks, free cultural events are your entertainment. Kids are bored you say? Get off your butt, and go play catch or make a snowman with them.

This is actually part of the reason why my wife says  it's hard to keep our grocery budget down.

She doesn't let them sit in front of the TV, they're always out doing things which creates 2 problems.

1) She packs snacks, but they run out and then are hungry.

2) She's gone all day doing activities with them, which gives no time (and energy) for making food.

Well, this is your problem right here:  your wife sees her job as "taking care of the children"; but your finances need her to see her job as "frugal homemaker."  If she doesn't want to take on that role, then she needs a job that pays -- or you need a job that pays more. 

All that running around is a choice.  Kids that age do not *need* to be doing "activities" and eating Burger King; all they need is a safe home and sufficient food and time to play and sleep.  Your wife is choosing that lifestyle for them, because she thinks it's best for them, or because she is going stir-crazy in the house all day with small kids, or because it's more fun than planning menus and cooking, or [insert alternative reason here]. 

This is not a criticism of her -- her choice to focus all her time and energy on your kids is great, if you can afford it.  But you can't.  So you and she together need to decide which alternate path she wants to take.

[kms]

Somehow I don't get the feeling we're getting anywhere here.

Advice: sell the rental.
Answer: can't, need to fix roof first.
Subsequent advice: forget the roof, list it today and get rid of it asap.
Subsequent answer: can't, want to fix roof first.

Advice: sell the car, use money to pay back debt and buy something cheaper.
Answer: I don't want to.

Advice: contact a tax lawyer or CPA to tackle your IRS debt.
Answer: maybe I should ask my parents to bail me out again...

Advice: your wife needs to take her role as homemaker seriously and start cooking!
Answer: can't, she's out all day with the kids doing fun stuff.

Advice: sell all unnecessary stuff from your house (that fourth TV, that third couch, etc.).
Answer: nah, I really don't want to.

Advice: tell your coworkers the free meal gravy train has come to a screetching halt.
Answer: none. literally, nothing. You have not said anything in this regard, and I'm afraid you're trying to ignore this particular piece of advice.

beatles, you need to take this seriously. I feel like you're desperately trying to find ways why you can't do any of the stuff that has been suggested, and will eventually resort to blaming society for its shortcomings or the banks for their greed just like you're blaming the IRS for your own mistakes already. Just talking and thinking about it won't change your situation. Taking action will, and you need to start right now. This has been said before but I'll gladly repeat it: if you don't start today you and your entire family might be homeless tomorrow.

[RetiredAt63]

Like Rezdent said, actions, not reading.  Prep is good but accomplishes nothing without action.

Baby step # 1 - this was your first.  Hope it is done and not put off until tomorrow.

So it's Monday.  And after lunch in New York state.  What did you say to your office re the end of free lunches? How did you frame it?  How did they respond?

Baby step # 2.

Call an accountant re your taxes.  To me that is a super emergency situation, you are incredibly calm about it (too calm, much too calm).

Baby step # 3. 

You and your wife look through the freezer and find the rest of this week's lunches and dinners in there.  Have them at the top.  If something needs to thaw for lunch, ti goes in the fridge the night before, if it has to thaw for dinner it has to go in the fridge in the morning.  If not, it needs to be on top for easy access.  Your lunch needs to be ready to go the night before so you can just grab it on your way out.


Re the kids, there is masses of stuff she can do at home with them.  Basically anything a daycare would do, she can do.  And what about play dates in the neighbourhood, not where she and the other moms chat (although she may want some of that for a social life) but where she frees another Mom for other things, and the other mom frees her.  Hauling a not-quite 2 year old around is exhausting, especially in winter - snowsuits, snow, etc.  For little benefit.  No wonder she has no energy at the end of the day.

BTW, I went back to work (including an hour commute each way) because I was in an isolated area, no-one to visit with while DD was little and I was going stir-crazy.   I still didn't have food spending like you have, I cooked.

[Allie]

Start with the big things and try not to get overwhelmed.  At some point, you will realize that you are happier when you don't spend money on the things we have been programmed (by marketers!) to want.  My husband wasn't on board with all of the cuts I instituted when I first joined up here, but now he is the one asking me to reconsider unnecessary purchases.  Because if you stop spending on stuff that marketers say will bring you happiness and actually focus on your human needs (security, stability, being able to help the ones we love) you will become happier.

There are lots of little tips and tricks you and your wife can learn following along here and just digging through the posts.  For everything you want to buy, just ask if you have to buy it.  Most likely, you don't need it and if you do, you can probably find something that will meet your need for less.  Someone here once wrote that there is a great big river of stuff that flows around us and you just need to stick your hand in and pull out what you need (or something like that).  It's really true.

For example, our library has a huge selection of movies and tv shows available.  We cut the cable out a few years ago and between Netflix and the library and rabbit ears, we have more than enough to watch.  Our library allows you to put movies and show DVDs on hold.  Every few weeks, I work up a list of new releases and kid movies and put them on the list.  They email me when something comes in and I take the kidlet and do a library program and pick up our movies once a week.  This week the Ab Fab movie, finding dory, and the new Star Trek showed up.  Next week it should be blood father.  I can't recall if there was entertainment listed on your budget, but this chopped 100/month off of our monthly bills between cable, Amazon, pay per view, etc.  I get streaming movies and books through the library's hoopla site.  So convenient. 

I use reusable little Tupperware, refillable pouches, and snack bags for our snacks.  I either make applesauce out of clearance apples or buy it in #10 cans at Costco and put it in the ziploc bottom pouches myself.  I have a dehydrator from the thrift store ($5) that works great do dry whatever random clearance produce or super sale produce I can find.  Some weeks, I'll grab 10 lbs of .50/lb (which is a crazy price for apples up here in Alaska) and dehydrate them.  Then, the next week, when apples aren't on clearance and cost $3/lb, we eat the chips.  But, don't go out and buy refillable pouches and new gladware.  See if someone you know has some they don't use any longer, check thrift, post on the local buy nothing groups, etc. 

I have my kids do lots of homemaker stuff with me.  It's great one on one or one on two time for us.  We go out and about a couple times a week to get exercise at the park, playground, gym, library, etc. but when they cook with me they develop fine motor skills (scooping, mixing, rolling), learn a little science, practice math (doubling recipes for addition, fractions when measuring, reading numbers etc.), reading practice with recipes and labels, and get the overall experience of making something. 

I understand that your wife has her own preferences and how we do things isn't necessarily going to be you guys do things, but those are just some suggestions. 

[Iplawyer]

Beatles - you don't need to put a roof on the rental to sell it - you just offer a credit for a new roof at closing.  Get a quote from a couple of roofers for the credit at closing.  Get the rental on the market now.  You are just procrastinating because, as I read it, you still have the idea that mommy and daddy can bail you out.  Stop it.  Sell the rental and payoff the property taxes and the IRS.

Nobody I know with kids is gone all day.  Kids can learn to sit on the floor in the kitchen and keep themselves busy while mom does what she needs to do.  I imagine that part of the problem with spending is the daily outings.

[Cowardly Toaster]

Full disclosure: my financial situation is messy (albeit heading in the correct direction) however, I have the grocery bill on lock. I'd like to offer a few basic suggestions for you.

The following are staples:
Steel Cut Oatmeal
Potatoes
Rice
Beans (dry not canned)
Onions
Carrots
Milk
Eggs
Butter

These can be combined an infinite number of ways to make tasty meals.

Now, add hamburger, chicken, and bacon. You'll go light on these because they are expensive.

Add a 5 basic spices, add raisins, blocks of cheese, and a few canned goods. Add a few greens and apples and bananas.

You're good to go. You can make tasty, healthy meals with just the ingredients above with enough variety not to be monotonous.

For recipes, google 'hotdish." You'll find all kinds of great stuff.

[researcher1]

My Wife and I really enjoyed reading everyone who broke down our receipt and showed us where to save..
But she was a little annoyed that I posted a receipt that was a few months old (oops!), as she feels she has gotten better recently.
So would anyone be willing to critique our latest receipt (I double checked I had the right now this time)?

First off, some of the advice you're getting here is ridiculous.  You don't need to start making your own bread & jelly.  The idea that you must stop purchasing ALL pre-packaged food is also impractical and unnecessary.  Disregard this advice and focus on aspects of your life that you can easily and immediately change.

That being said, your grocery expenses are absolutely shocking.  My household is similar to yours, as we have a 3yr old and 5yr old.  We spend roughly $70/week at the grocery, plus another $100 every ~2 months at Sam's Club.  While we buy several of the pre-packaged items you have on your list, there are a few major exceptions:

Drinks
You spent nearly $30 on GARBAGE drinks.  We spend $0-$3.  Have you ever heard of WATER!
Juice is completely unnecessary and unhealthy for kids. There are dozens of articles on this topic, so have your wife do some research. 
And what is with all of that soda?  If you aren't already, your entire family will be obese diabetics with high cholesterol and heart disease.
- Dannon Danimals Smoothie, Value Pack   4.79
- Sprite Soda, Lemon-Lime   3.49
- Coca-Cola Cola   3.49
- Stewart's Fountain Classics Soda, Cream   3.99
- Dole 00% Juice, Pineapple Orange Banana   3.90
- Juicy Juice Apple 00% Juice   2.99
- Saranac Hand-Crafted Soft Drinks, Premium Orange Cream   5.49

Junk Food
How can you spend over $40 on junk food in just one trip to the store?  I'm not like many of the people here who eat zero pre-packaged junk food.  We buy our share of cookies, popsicles, ect.  But damn, this is out of control.  We will buy maybe ONE treat each trip to the store, not TEN.
- Generic Large Apple Crumb Pie
- Generic Assorted In Store Baked Muffins, 4 Pack
- REESE'S Shell Topping, Chocolate & Peanut Butter
- Breyers Indulgences Gelato, Raspberry Cheesecake
- Generic Food You Feel Good About Unsweetened Apple Sauce Pouches, FAMILY PACK
- Popsicle Ice Pops, Slow Melt, Mighty Minis, Assorted, 20 Pack
- Generic Ultimate Chocolate Chip Cookies
- Mayfair Jellies Orange Slices

[meandmyfamily]

This!!!

Beatles
Just a word of caution.  Don't get stuck.

What I am referring to is usually called "analysis paralysis".  You ask questions, get advice.  Ask more questions, more advice.  Repeat.  Repeat.
This feels good because it feels like you are addressing problems.  But the feeling is not accurate.

You must take action.  Action is harder.  Action sucks.
Posting a receipt is not action.  It is an autopsy of what happened,and can get you advice on how to improve, but it isn't action.

Calling a CPA or credit counselor today is action.  Listing the rent house is action.  Calling and cancelling massages are action.  Actually telling coworkers today that the free lunch ended last week is action.

If you are serious - don't mistake analysis for action.  Dont let today slip past without action.  Take action today.  And again tomorrow.

[Zoot]

You are getting a lot of great advice from some black-belt frugalistas.  I myself have been on the frugality train for about 30 years (since I was about 20), and even I have learned some things from reading the amazing responses to your case study.

But when you're a white-belt, black-belt advice can seem overwhelming, or even impossible, at the level of wizardry and magic.

My suggestion:  choose one small, simple thing to start with, and watch the effect.  This will give you a tangible result that you can see and help spur you to make the next small change.

For instance, calculate what you're spending on soda every month, and then stop buying soda (and don't buy more processed beverages instead to make up for it--drink water, iced tea, water with lemon) and send the extra money to whatever CC you have in your sights first. 

Not ready for soda?  Choose something else.  But choose something.

Someone else mentioned the fantastic book Good And Cheap by Leanne Brown, and that it's available on Amazon.  But the entire book is also available online at the author's website as a PDF, absolutely free.  Here's a link:

https://www.leannebrown.com/

And here's a link straight to the book itself as a PDF:

https://cookbooks.leannebrown.com/good-and-cheap.pdf

Maybe you'll choose to make it a goal to replace one restaurant meal a week with a recipe from the book--many if not most of them cost < $2/serving for adults, and presumably even less for children.

But you have to start somewhere.  Just one thing.  That's all.  Then the next, and then the next.  But for now, just one thing.

Let us know what you pick, and how it goes.  We are all rooting for you!

[The beatles]

We racked it back up because we bought a new house.

No, not really.  You racked it up because you had to have everything in that house shiny and new and perfect, and so you bought moldings and new sofas when you could have made done with some paint and craigslist for furniture.

Beatles, here's some perspective for you.  The only debt we have is a 30k mortgage (0% interest loan from grandma which we are paying back monthly).  Even still, we don't own a couch because we don't have the money!  Or we do have the money, but we are choosing to spend that money on our investments, not our current comfort. 

I'm posting a picture of our "family room".  It's in quotes, because we (a family of SIX) don't even have a living room.  We have a kitchen and a bedroom.  In our kitchen is a hard-bench picnic table.  It serves as our table and also as our "couch" in the evenings when we watch tv. 

If you look carefully up on the shelf to the left is our TV, the SMALLEST (and cheapest) one they had at the store.  We use it with a chromecast ($30 bucks) to watch Netflix ($10/month).  We have no other cable other than that. 

We sit on our picnic table bench, lean back against the wall, and put our feet up on the bench.  What luxury!  But hey, learning to be a frugal god feels better than drowning in debt.  Learning to MAKE DO feels good, like the way you feel after a hard workout.

And, when our butts get tired from being on the hard bench at night, then guess what, that means it's time to stop watching TV (waste of time anyway) and GO TO BED, not look into buying a couch.

Wowzer.

I think my kids would revolt!

[The beatles]

Here is a win.

Told everyone today that I wasn't purchasing lunches on M/W/F anymore.

They asked me to buy one more time, so I bought lunch today. One final time for $33.90

[Bracken_Joy]

Here is a win.

Told everyone today that I wasn't purchasing lunches on M/W/F anymore.

They asked me to buy one more time, so I bought lunch today. One final time for $33.90

Excellent! How did they receive the news overall? Did you find the experience empowering? Are you excited, seeing that you can DO THIS? =D

[pbkmaine]

LadyStache in Baja and her husband live within their means. That peace of mind is beyond price.

[Zoot]

Just had another idea:  maybe choose to make all your sweet treats at home instead of buying them at the grocery.  Teaching kids to make cookies is one of life's greatest joys, and it's a memory they will have forever.  Make Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon or whatever time you choose Cookie Time--kids get to pick recipes, "help" with the mixing, rolling, cutting--and will be invested in eating the results.  :)  Who knows--this might even take the place of an "activity" and save even more money in the long run!

[The beatles]

Beatles - you don't need to put a roof on the rental to sell it - you just offer a credit for a new roof at closing.  Get a quote from a couple of roofers for the credit at closing.  Get the rental on the market now.  You are just procrastinating because, as I read it, you still have the idea that mommy and daddy can bail you out.  Stop it.  Sell the rental and payoff the property taxes and the IRS.

Nobody I know with kids is gone all day.  Kids can learn to sit on the floor in the kitchen and keep themselves busy while mom does what she needs to do.  I imagine that part of the problem with spending is the daily outings.

Do you think it'll be harder to sell without the roof?

[begood]

Here is a win.

Told everyone today that I wasn't purchasing lunches on M/W/F anymore.

They asked me to buy one more time, so I bought lunch today. One final time for $33.90

Good job, beatles! I know that couldn't have been easy for you to do, but it's DONE! You were at $115, so that makes it ~$149 for January instead of $600. WIN! \o/

Now take that $451 and send it to one of your credit cards - either the smallest balance or the highest interest.

You're on your way, buddy!

About the kids and their projected "revolt" - the harsh truth is that it doesn't matter what your  little kids want. Given free rein, most kids would eat their own boogers and run with sticks all day. At ages 4 and almost 2, they are still delightfully adaptable. They can still make choices: apple or orange? cheese or peanut butter? But you have to set the tone, the example, and the rules.

Kids who get their way all the time turn into terrible tyrants, and you definitely don't want to live with two little tyrants.

[Quidnon?]

Beatles - you don't need to put a roof on the rental to sell it - you just offer a credit for a new roof at closing.  Get a quote from a couple of roofers for the credit at closing.

Nor do you need to wait till the lease is up.  In fact, an investor prefers a current lessee, because it tells them right away that it is in a rentable condition.

[Bracken_Joy]

Beatles - you don't need to put a roof on the rental to sell it - you just offer a credit for a new roof at closing.  Get a quote from a couple of roofers for the credit at closing.  Get the rental on the market now.  You are just procrastinating because, as I read it, you still have the idea that mommy and daddy can bail you out.  Stop it.  Sell the rental and payoff the property taxes and the IRS.

Nobody I know with kids is gone all day.  Kids can learn to sit on the floor in the kitchen and keep themselves busy while mom does what she needs to do.  I imagine that part of the problem with spending is the daily outings.

Do you think it'll be harder to sell without the roof?

Talk to a real estate agent who knows your market. Don't assume until you have expert opinion. If they say "this is a slow market, no way will it sell", then consider the repair. But until you hear from someone with experience, you're putting up road blocks where there don't need to be any.

[Zoot]

Here is a win.

Told everyone today that I wasn't purchasing lunches on M/W/F anymore.

They asked me to buy one more time, so I bought lunch today. One final time for $33.90

This.  Is.  Awesome.  :)

If today's purchase is typical, you just freed up $400/month!

With your usual payment of $25/month, this is enough to COMPLETELY pay off CC 4 (with an additional $25-ish you can squeeze from somewhere)! 

Then next month, take that $400, the $25 from your former CC 4 payment, and the $194 for your regular payment, and destroy CC 1!

Then the next month, take the $400, the $25 from your former CC 4 payment, the $194 from your former CC1 payment, and destroy CC 6!

See how it works?  :)

[The beatles]

Advice: sell the rental.
Answer: can't, need to fix roof first.
Subsequent advice: forget the roof, list it today and get rid of it asap.
Subsequent answer: can't, want to fix roof first.

I want to sell the rental, but I also want to get the most we can for it.

If fixing the roof nets us $10k more, isn't that worth it!?!?

Advice: sell all unnecessary stuff from your house (that fourth TV, that third couch, etc.).
Answer: nah, I really don't want to.

It's not just that I don't want to, it's that I dont understand how that helps us.

We have loans against those items... And we'll receive pennies on the dollar for selling them.

Even another frugler in this thread said that doesn't make sense to do so.

Advice: tell your coworkers the free meal gravy train has come to a screetching halt.
Answer: none. literally, nothing. You have not said anything in this regard, and I'm afraid you're trying to ignore this particular piece of advice.

Did that today.

[Quidnon?]

Beatles - you don't need to put a roof on the rental to sell it - you just offer a credit for a new roof at closing.  Get a quote from a couple of roofers for the credit at closing.  Get the rental on the market now.  You are just procrastinating because, as I read it, you still have the idea that mommy and daddy can bail you out.  Stop it.  Sell the rental and payoff the property taxes and the IRS.

Nobody I know with kids is gone all day.  Kids can learn to sit on the floor in the kitchen and keep themselves busy while mom does what she needs to do.  I imagine that part of the problem with spending is the daily outings.

Do you think it'll be harder to sell without the roof?

Not really.  Just get a quote from a reputable roofer and make that your credit.  A lot of investors have skills, and can do these kinds of things themselves to save a buck. Flippers like to do things like this also.  You are better off putting it on the market as is, sooner rather than later.

[1967mama]

Kids who get their way all the time turn into terrible tyrants, and you definitely don't want to live with two little tyrants.

... who would then turn into 2 teenaged tyrants! Ack!

[ysette9]

Great job telling your coworkers that the free lunches are ending! That will save a lot going forward and it is good exercise to practice saying "no". :)

So if I understand correctly, you are underwater on your financed furniture and that makes you not want to sell it? The advice given to people on these forums when the same thing pops up for underwater cars is to get rid of it anyway, and then at least you have reduced the amount of debt you are carrying. You usually can't get a free car on Craigslist, but you can get free or almost frrr fur utile on Craigslist, so I think it would at least be worth spending an hour online searching to see what is possible.

I agree with others that you have a lot of junk food on your grocery bill. My husband just went shopping yesterday at our local Trader Joe's (the best grocery store ever) :). I don't have the receipt to share specifics, but for $100 we got something on the order of:

couple of pears
some bananas
a few colorful bell peppers
broccoli salad mix
bag of pre-washed baby kale
box of cucumbers
two loaves of 100% whole wheat bread
half gallon of lactaid milk
pound of ground turkey (split, used in two different recipes)
bag of onions
two dozen eggs
block of smoked guda (*note: the most processed and also the most expensive food item of our purchases)
two cans of coconut milk
jar of salsa
couple jars of spaghetti sauce
couple tubs of fresh tofu
bag of whole wheat naan
two different containers of mushrooms (crimini & oyster)

I know I am forgetting some stuff, but I didn't put all of the groceries away. Last weekend I also made two loaves of whole wheat bread for fun (inspired by this thread - thanks!) and a double batch of a great pumpkin bread (whole wheat flour + chopped pecans) to use up the gnarly old bananas we had lying around. We are by no means that frugal with our groceries and probably spend $500-600 a month for two adults and a toddler. I know this attitude will get my banished to the Bogleheads forum forever, but I figure it is okay to be a little spendy since we have $1.5M invested right now. :)

[1967mama]

Just had another idea:  maybe choose to make all your sweet treats at home instead of buying them at the grocery.  Teaching kids to make cookies is one of life's greatest joys, and it's a memory they will have forever.  Make Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon or whatever time you choose Cookie Time--kids get to pick recipes, "help" with the mixing, rolling, cutting--and will be invested in eating the results.  :)  Who knows--this might even take the place of an "activity" and save even more money in the long run!

Here's a super little recipe from my cookbook - we make them often!

[Rezdent]

We racked it back up because we bought a new house.

No, not really.  You racked it up because you had to have everything in that house shiny and new and perfect, and so you bought moldings and new sofas when you could have made done with some paint and craigslist for furniture.

Beatles, here's some perspective for you.  The only debt we have is a 30k mortgage (0% interest loan from grandma which we are paying back monthly).  Even still, we don't own a couch because we don't have the money!  Or we do have the money, but we are choosing to spend that money on our investments, not our current comfort. 

I'm posting a picture of our "family room".  It's in quotes, because we (a family of SIX) don't even have a living room.  We have a kitchen and a bedroom.  In our kitchen is a hard-bench picnic table.  It serves as our table and also as our "couch" in the evenings when we watch tv. 

If you look carefully up on the shelf to the left is our TV, the SMALLEST (and cheapest) one they had at the store.  We use it with a chromecast ($30 bucks) to watch Netflix ($10/month).  We have no other cable other than that. 

We sit on our picnic table bench, lean back against the wall, and put our feet up on the bench.  What luxury!  But hey, learning to be a frugal god feels better than drowning in debt.  Learning to MAKE DO feels good, like the way you feel after a hard workout.

And, when our butts get tired from being on the hard bench at night, then guess what, that means it's time to stop watching TV (waste of time anyway) and GO TO BED, not look into buying a couch.

Wowzer.

I think my kids would revolt!

Not really.  Kids under the age of six can't really revolt.  YOU are the boss of the kids, remember?  At the most, they can pout for a few days, at most.  And as adults, you can just wait out the pouting.  Really, just don't back down.
Personally, I would just eliminate tv altogether for a couple of years, then they might truly enjoy an occasional show.  I did this with my kids, and they totally aced school (and athletics. and music).  I realize this might be too hardcore even for the MMM crowd, but just saying.

LadyStache rocks.

[Quidnon?]

Beatles, do you have a family sized crockpot?  It's easy to make really good meals using a crockpot, and a great many of them can be put into the crock the night before, stored in the fridge, and then put into the crockpot heating base in the morning without driving momma crazy with distractions.  Cut, mix and such the recipe the night before after the kids are in bed.  You can't do this everyday, unless you have a second removable crock, because you need the day in between to consume the leftovers and clean the crock.

Seriously, though, you can make some excellent meals with a crockpot and enough advance time.  Slow roasted rump roast with onions, carrots & potatoes is one of my favorites.  Once for dinner, then on a sandwich the next day.  Roast isn't cheap, so it's not like it could be an everyday thing, but it's not a complex task.  I'd say that most any crockpot meal can be prepared in about 20 minutes of un-interupted action, and heated on the low setting for about 6 to 8 hours.

And during the winter, the heat that the crockpot loses to into the kitchen will help with the heating needs of the house, so you really don't lose energy, since you'd be heating the kitchen anyway.  In a way, a crockpot in winter is heat used twice.

[Zoot]

I want to sell the rental, but I also want to get the most we can for it.

If fixing the roof nets us $10k more, isn't that worth it!?!?

Maybe, maybe not.  You have to do the analysis:

Listing price with old roof
Price of new roof
Listing price with new roof

You'll need advice from a good realtor on this.  More often than not, though, you don't get a full "payback" from capital improvements.  Also, consider the market you're likely trying to attract:  investors, who have either the skills or the contacts to get it done cheaply and might chomp at the bit to buy your property with the older roof.

Run the numbers, then decide. 

My gut tells me it's best to list without fixing the roof, but talk to a realtor and make the call, and get the thing on the market!

[The beatles]

We racked it back up because we bought a new house.

No, not really.  You racked it up because you had to have everything in that house shiny and new and perfect, and so you bought moldings and new sofas when you could have made done with some paint and craigslist for furniture.

Beatles, here's some perspective for you.  The only debt we have is a 30k mortgage (0% interest loan from grandma which we are paying back monthly).  Even still, we don't own a couch because we don't have the money!  Or we do have the money, but we are choosing to spend that money on our investments, not our current comfort. 

I'm posting a picture of our "family room".  It's in quotes, because we (a family of SIX) don't even have a living room.  We have a kitchen and a bedroom.  In our kitchen is a hard-bench picnic table.  It serves as our table and also as our "couch" in the evenings when we watch tv. 

If you look carefully up on the shelf to the left is our TV, the SMALLEST (and cheapest) one they had at the store.  We use it with a chromecast ($30 bucks) to watch Netflix ($10/month).  We have no other cable other than that. 

We sit on our picnic table bench, lean back against the wall, and put our feet up on the bench.  What luxury!  But hey, learning to be a frugal god feels better than drowning in debt.  Learning to MAKE DO feels good, like the way you feel after a hard workout.

And, when our butts get tired from being on the hard bench at night, then guess what, that means it's time to stop watching TV (waste of time anyway) and GO TO BED, not look into buying a couch.

Wowzer.

I think my kids would revolt!

Not really.  Kids under the age of six can't really revolt.  YOU are the boss of the kids, remember?  At the most, they can pout for a few days, at most.  And as adults, you can just wait out the pouting.  Really, just don't back down.
Personally, I would just eliminate tv altogether for a couple of years, then they might truly enjoy an occasional show.  I did this with my kids, and they totally aced school (and athletics. and music).  I realize this might be too hardcore even for the MMM crowd, but just saying.

LadyStache rocks.

It doesn't really feel like were the boss all the time.

[The beatles]

I want to sell the rental, but I also want to get the most we can for it.

If fixing the roof nets us $10k more, isn't that worth it!?!?

Maybe, maybe not.  You have to do the analysis:

Listing price with old roof
Price of new roof
Listing price with new roof

You'll need advice from a good realtor on this.  More often than not, though, you don't get a full "payback" from capital improvements.  Also, consider the market you're likely trying to attract:  investors, who have either the skills or the contacts to get it done cheaply and might chomp at the bit to buy your property with the older roof.

Run the numbers, then decide. 

My gut tells me it's best to list without fixing the roof, but talk to a realtor and make the call, and get the thing on the market!

Thank you.

[Zoot]

It doesn't really feel like were the boss all the time.

As a parent, you are the boss.

A boss of mine once told me:  you are not given authority--you take it.

Kids will look to you for structure, boundaries, limitations.  As a children's choir educator hero of mine says, "structure relieves anxiety." 

Give your kids the gift of taking charge.

[ShoulderThingThatGoesUp]

We racked it back up because we bought a new house.

No, not really.  You racked it up because you had to have everything in that house shiny and new and perfect, and so you bought moldings and new sofas when you could have made done with some paint and craigslist for furniture.

Beatles, here's some perspective for you.  The only debt we have is a 30k mortgage (0% interest loan from grandma which we are paying back monthly).  Even still, we don't own a couch because we don't have the money!  Or we do have the money, but we are choosing to spend that money on our investments, not our current comfort. 

I'm posting a picture of our "family room".  It's in quotes, because we (a family of SIX) don't even have a living room.  We have a kitchen and a bedroom.  In our kitchen is a hard-bench picnic table.  It serves as our table and also as our "couch" in the evenings when we watch tv. 

If you look carefully up on the shelf to the left is our TV, the SMALLEST (and cheapest) one they had at the store.  We use it with a chromecast ($30 bucks) to watch Netflix ($10/month).  We have no other cable other than that. 

We sit on our picnic table bench, lean back against the wall, and put our feet up on the bench.  What luxury!  But hey, learning to be a frugal god feels better than drowning in debt.  Learning to MAKE DO feels good, like the way you feel after a hard workout.

And, when our butts get tired from being on the hard bench at night, then guess what, that means it's time to stop watching TV (waste of time anyway) and GO TO BED, not look into buying a couch.

Wowzer.

I think my kids would revolt!

Not really.  Kids under the age of six can't really revolt.  YOU are the boss of the kids, remember?  At the most, they can pout for a few days, at most.  And as adults, you can just wait out the pouting.  Really, just don't back down.
Personally, I would just eliminate tv altogether for a couple of years, then they might truly enjoy an occasional show.  I did this with my kids, and they totally aced school (and athletics. and music).  I realize this might be too hardcore even for the MMM crowd, but just saying.

LadyStache rocks.

It doesn't really feel like were the boss all the time.

That sounds like how you feel about money, too. Guess what? Not only are you the boss, your family needs you (plural, including your wife) to be the boss.

[begood]

It doesn't really feel like were the boss all the time.

As a parent, you are the boss.

A boss of mine once told me:  you are not given authority--you take it.

Kids will look to you for structure, boundaries, limitations.  As a children's choir educator hero of mine says, "structure relieves anxiety." 

Give your kids the gift of being in charge.

This! This is what I was trying to say above, but Zoot says it so much better.

Children don't have the developmental capacity to be in charge of much of anything. It's their job to learn and grow, and sometimes it's their job to look for where the boundary is. Make sure there are boundaries for them to find. Children thrive on structure and routine - if they're not provided with that, they will sometimes try to create it for themselves, and it may look very different from what you would like as a parent.

But they are young, and therefore malleable, and now is the perfect time to start being the boss of them.

[Laura33]

Advice: sell the rental.
Answer: can't, need to fix roof first.
Subsequent advice: forget the roof, list it today and get rid of it asap.
Subsequent answer: can't, want to fix roof first.

I want to sell the rental, but I also want to get the most we can for it.

If fixing the roof nets us $10k more, isn't that worth it!?!?

You can't afford to fix the roof -- you don't have the money.  First rule of holes:  when you're in one, stop digging. 

If you want to determine whether fixing the roof is worth it financially, you need to talk to a Realtor and to whomever is going to lend you the money for the repairs to determine (i) the likely net profit from the sale both with/without the roof, taking into consideration the repair costs + interest; (ii) the timeframe to sell if you list immediately as-is vs. wait until you can get it fixed; (iii) the difference in income (rent payments) and outflow (mortgage/taxes) over that timeframe; and (iv) the extra $$ you will pay in interest/penalties on the back taxes (IRS/property) during any extra time it takes to repair the roof (because delaying the sale for repairs likely means delaying the date on which you can get that resolved).  You may be right, it may be best to fix the roof first, but you don't know that based on a $10K guesstimate.

My sense is that this is another example where the perfect is the enemy of the good.  It will take a lot of time and effort to fix the house up for sale, and you might not get as much out of it as you think when you consider all of the interest you're paying elsewhere in the meantime.  You may be better off in the long run cutting bait on the rental so you can focus your limited time/energy on all of the other issues you need to address.

Big congrats on the lunches, btw -- that's a hard thing to do.

[Quidnon?]

It doesn't really feel like were the boss all the time.

It won't feel like that all the time, but if it doesn't feel like you are in charge most of the time, the kids are winning.  You don't want them to grow up with an entitlement mentality, or the teenage years are going to suck for you all.  Also, train them now that the sweet snacks are an extra special treat.  It was only about 100 years ago that getting an orange for Christmas was a special treat in the New England states.  When I grew up, we went to McDonalds about 4 or 5 times in a year, and that was an event for my sister, brother & I.  As an adult, you can change your own perspectives on what comfort means, with the will to do it; but kids need to be trained that luxuries are rare, and that they don't deserve them just because they didn't have a tantrum yesterday.

[ysette9]

A boss of mine once told me:  you are not given authority--you take it.

Kids will look to you for structure, boundaries, limitations.  As a children's choir educator hero of mine says, "structure relieves anxiety."

My kid is only 2.5 so I can't speak to what parenting a 4 year-old is like, but I am totally on board with what others are saying about you being the boss. We are not as strict as my parents were, however there are definitely boundaries. What works well for our kid is giving her a choice. She really really really wants autonomy so we handle it by letting her choose between two pre-selected options. "Would you like to wear the blue pants or the red?", "Do you want to eat PB&J or oatmeal for breakfast?", "Do you want to read this book or that one?". You get the picture. I've learned to not ask her "what do you want to eat for dinner?", and similarly she almost never dictates what we buy at the grocery store.
[....Okay, okay, she wanted red bell peppers so I bought them for her.... ] If she wants a chocolate, she gets ONE dark chocolate covered almond. Period. Amazingly, she hasn't figured out yet that she is leading a deprived life. :)

[Cranky]

Put dinner in the crockpot. Bake some muffins (you'll get more than 4 and it will cost you a lot less.)

Take cheese and crackers and apples and muffins and water in reusable containers, and go about your day. I stayed home with my kids for 16 years, and they were not closely acquainted with fast food because we cooked at home.

Don't buy stuff you can't pay for. I am stunned at the idea of borrowing money to buy couches. Really?

You guys can do this, but it is going to take some work. I think it helps if you make it a game - call it "Beat the System".

[ysette9]

http://www.superhealthykids.com/10-quick-healthy-freezer-slow-cooker-meals-no-prep-cooking-needed/

We have started experimenting with something called crock pot freezer recipes. Basically you take a couple of hours on a weekend (we did it when the kid was napping) to chop and measure out a bunch of ingredients for 10 or more recipes at once. You stick all of the ingredients in plastic zip-lock freezer bags so that all you have to do is pull one out, defrost, and then pop it into the crock pot. My husband puts it into the crock pot in the morning before he leaves for work and I serve it once I get home from work in the evening. You might need to make some rice (from scratch, not frozen!) to go along with, or toast some bread, or something equally easy.

I always substitute whole grain options whenever possible. For example, if it calls for the thing you make in the crock pot to be poured over pasta, I make 100% whole wheat pasta. We also do brown rice, 100% whole wheat couscous, brown rice pasta for Asian dishes, etc. It is SUCH a mental relief having all of these meals planned out in advance and knowing that all I have to do to have food is open up the chest freezer in the garage and pull out the crock pot.

[LadyStache in Baja]

We racked it back up because we bought a new house.

No, not really.  You racked it up because you had to have everything in that house shiny and new and perfect, and so you bought moldings and new sofas when you could have made done with some paint and craigslist for furniture.

Beatles, here's some perspective for you.  The only debt we have is a 30k mortgage (0% interest loan from grandma which we are paying back monthly).  Even still, we don't own a couch because we don't have the money!  Or we do have the money, but we are choosing to spend that money on our investments, not our current comfort. 

I'm posting a picture of our "family room".  It's in quotes, because we (a family of SIX) don't even have a living room.  We have a kitchen and a bedroom.  In our kitchen is a hard-bench picnic table.  It serves as our table and also as our "couch" in the evenings when we watch tv. 

If you look carefully up on the shelf to the left is our TV, the SMALLEST (and cheapest) one they had at the store.  We use it with a chromecast ($30 bucks) to watch Netflix ($10/month).  We have no other cable other than that. 

We sit on our picnic table bench, lean back against the wall, and put our feet up on the bench.  What luxury!  But hey, learning to be a frugal god feels better than drowning in debt.  Learning to MAKE DO feels good, like the way you feel after a hard workout.

And, when our butts get tired from being on the hard bench at night, then guess what, that means it's time to stop watching TV (waste of time anyway) and GO TO BED, not look into buying a couch.

Wowzer.

I think my kids would revolt!

Not really.  Kids under the age of six can't really revolt.  YOU are the boss of the kids, remember?  At the most, they can pout for a few days, at most.  And as adults, you can just wait out the pouting.  Really, just don't back down.
Personally, I would just eliminate tv altogether for a couple of years, then they might truly enjoy an occasional show.  I did this with my kids, and they totally aced school (and athletics. and music).  I realize this might be too hardcore even for the MMM crowd, but just saying.

LadyStache rocks.

It doesn't really feel like were the boss all the time.

That sounds like how you feel about money, too. Guess what? Not only are you the boss, your family needs you (plural, including your wife) to be the boss.

OK, so now you really need to read Janet Lansbury.  I'll give you a quick summary.  Kids need you to be in charge and need to know that their emotions are ok.  When they have a tantrum, they need to know that it doesn't phase you (even though it might be driving you nuts), because you're in charge.  If you start bending over backwards for every whim ("no, I want my milk in the blue cup") then that's scary for them because it means they're in charge, and they know they don't know what they're doing.  Get it?

So when they say "no i want my milk in the blue cup" you say, "you can have it in this red cup I've already poured or you can have no milk".  they might scream and throw a fit.  You say, "wow, you're really upset" (say this with empathy), and then take the milk away and put it in the fridge for later. 

If they keep screaming, you just ignore them and go about your day.  If they start hurting things you say, "you're very angry, but I won't let you hit things.  I'm going to hold your arms and keep us safe until you can stop hitting".  You might also add "It's ok to be angry but it's not ok to hit.  You can hit this pillow if you'd like". 

This is getting long, and I'm supposed to be cleaning the kitchen. 

Basically, its ok for kids to be upset.  Internalize that.  It's ok for my kid to be upset.  It's ok for her to experience anger.  Frustration.  Even sadness.  It's ok.  I'm going to let her experience this emotion while I set the limit.

[The beatles]

Advice: sell the rental.
Answer: can't, need to fix roof first.
Subsequent advice: forget the roof, list it today and get rid of it asap.
Subsequent answer: can't, want to fix roof first.

I want to sell the rental, but I also want to get the most we can for it.

If fixing the roof nets us $10k more, isn't that worth it!?!?

You can't afford to fix the roof -- you don't have the money.  First rule of holes:  when you're in one, stop digging. 

If you want to determine whether fixing the roof is worth it financially, you need to talk to a Realtor and to whomever is going to lend you the money for the repairs to determine (i) the likely net profit from the sale both with/without the roof, taking into consideration the repair costs + interest; (ii) the timeframe to sell if you list immediately as-is vs. wait until you can get it fixed; (iii) the difference in income (rent payments) and outflow (mortgage/taxes) over that timeframe; and (iv) the extra $$ you will pay in interest/penalties on the back taxes (IRS/property) during any extra time it takes to repair the roof (because delaying the sale for repairs likely means delaying the date on which you can get that resolved).  You may be right, it may be best to fix the roof first, but you don't know that based on a $10K guesstimate.

My sense is that this is another example where the perfect is the enemy of the good.  It will take a lot of time and effort to fix the house up for sale, and you might not get as much out of it as you think when you consider all of the interest you're paying elsewhere in the meantime.  You may be better off in the long run cutting bait on the rental so you can focus your limited time/energy on all of the other issues you need to address.

Big congrats on the lunches, btw -- that's a hard thing to do.

My parents could pay for the roof if we want.

We did talk to a realtor and she said that the roof not being finished will drive buyers away.

She said that even the way a picture is angled for their house listing online affects open house visits.

So a bad roof in a picture is going to cut our potential by a lot.

[ysette9]

It's ok.  I'm going to let her experience this emotion while I set the limit.

I try to emulate this: "le cadre", in French. In short, set expectations for what my kid can and cannot do. Tell her where the boundaries are, and then let her run amok within those boundaries.

[Trifle]

Congrats on the work lunches, Beatles!  Huge win.  :)

[infogoon]

Posting to follow.

OP -- if you have Tops stores available, there are some awesome resources to help save money on the grocery bill via careful coupon and sale shopping. I'd be happy to PM links.

[kms]

It's not just that I don't want to, it's that I dont understand how that helps us.

We have loans against those items... And we'll receive pennies on the dollar for selling them.

Even another frugler in this thread said that doesn't make sense to do so.

They were talking about the furniture and I agree there. Yes, there's absolutely no point in selling used furniture since it will net you literal pennies to the dollar at most. The car is a different story though. Based on what you've told us you own roughly $3,500 and have a $400 monthly payment. The car is worth around $13,000 based on your own research, which means:

+ $13,000 when you sell the car this month
- $3,500 pay back dealer/bank
- $5,000 buy used car in good condition (no SUV! Toyota/Honda/Kia minivan or sedan!)
-----------
$4,500 you can use to pay off credit cards CC2 in January 2017.

This move will also free up an additional $530 each month ($400 car payment + $130 CC2 payment) that you can use to pay off your credit card debt. Together with the meals that you're no longer buying for your coworkers (congrats on that by the way, well done!) we're talking about $1,130 every month that you will be able to pay towards your credit card debt. Here's the simple math behind it:

Jan 2017: sell car, buy cheaper used car, pay off CC2
Feb 2017: use $1,130 to pay off CC3 & CC5 -> extra $45 starting March
Mar 2017: use $1,175 to pay off CC1 & start paying off CC2 -> extra $195 starting April
Apr 2017: use $1,370 towards CC2
May 2017: use $1,370 towards CC2
Jun 2017: use $1,370 to pay off CC2 -> extra $135 starting July
Jul 2017: use $1,500 to pay off CC6 and start paying off CC7 -> extra $75 starting August
Aug 2017: use $1,575 to pay off CC7 -> extra $100 starting September
Sep 2017: use $450 to pay off CC4, put remaining $1,225 towards furniture loan, parents, IRS debt, etc.

It is now October 2017, and you've paid off every single dollar of credit card debt, your car loan is gone, and you've got an additional $1,700 to pay off your debt every single month. And all you had to do in order to achieve this is a) sell your car, and b) stop buying lunches for your coworkers (which you already did, congratulations on that by the way!)

Imagine how much more you will be able to achieve if you stop buying and eating/drinking junk, you and your wife start home cooking your meals, and you bring down your grocery budget to $600 per month.

[ysette9]

BTW, I want to add in - good job on the progress you have made so far and for sticking with all of our long-winded advice and punishment. You can do this!

[Zoot]

My parents could pay for the roof if we want.

We did talk to a realtor and she said that the roof not being finished will drive buyers away.

She said that even the way a picture is angled for their house listing online affects open house visits.

So a bad roof in a picture is going to cut our potential by a lot.

Sounds like you've done the legwork.  Get the quotes and make the repair--ask your realtor whether the expense for architectural shingles (for example) is worth it (I suspect not).  Do it quickly--every month you delay a sale is another mortgage payment you have to make.

[Laura33]

Advice: sell the rental.
Answer: can't, need to fix roof first.
Subsequent advice: forget the roof, list it today and get rid of it asap.
Subsequent answer: can't, want to fix roof first.

I want to sell the rental, but I also want to get the most we can for it.

If fixing the roof nets us $10k more, isn't that worth it!?!?

You can't afford to fix the roof -- you don't have the money.  First rule of holes:  when you're in one, stop digging. 

If you want to determine whether fixing the roof is worth it financially, you need to talk to a Realtor and to whomever is going to lend you the money for the repairs to determine (i) the likely net profit from the sale both with/without the roof, taking into consideration the repair costs + interest; (ii) the timeframe to sell if you list immediately as-is vs. wait until you can get it fixed; (iii) the difference in income (rent payments) and outflow (mortgage/taxes) over that timeframe; and (iv) the extra $$ you will pay in interest/penalties on the back taxes (IRS/property) during any extra time it takes to repair the roof (because delaying the sale for repairs likely means delaying the date on which you can get that resolved).  You may be right, it may be best to fix the roof first, but you don't know that based on a $10K guesstimate.

My sense is that this is another example where the perfect is the enemy of the good.  It will take a lot of time and effort to fix the house up for sale, and you might not get as much out of it as you think when you consider all of the interest you're paying elsewhere in the meantime.  You may be better off in the long run cutting bait on the rental so you can focus your limited time/energy on all of the other issues you need to address.

Big congrats on the lunches, btw -- that's a hard thing to do.

My parents could pay for the roof if we want.

We did talk to a realtor and she said that the roof not being finished will drive buyers away.

She said that even the way a picture is angled for their house listing online affects open house visits.

So a bad roof in a picture is going to cut our potential by a lot.

Please note that I didn't say you couldn't borrow the money -- I said you don't have the money.  Time to stand on your own feet and fix this yourself.

I am not a Realtor and don't know your market at all, but you are looking for the investor market, not the primary homebuyer market.  Talk to someone who serves that market first before you decide.

[former player]

My parents could pay for the roof if we want.

We did talk to a realtor and she said that the roof not being finished will drive buyers away.

She said that even the way a picture is angled for their house listing online affects open house visits.

So a bad roof in a picture is going to cut our potential by a lot.

I thought we were past the "running back to mummy and daddy for money" thing?

Find a better realtor.  One that specialises in selling rentals, if there is such a thing.  The one you asked just wants easy money for no effort, which is what selling houses in perfect condition is for her.

Yes, the roof will put off some people.  It won't put off a serious investor, although they will try to knock you down on price because of it.  That is why you get a couple of estimates to counter them in the negotiations.

[Zoot]

My parents could pay for the roof if we want.

Oh, and of course, if your parents are paying for the roof, pay them back out of the proceeds of the sale.

This is critical for your relationship with them, their own financial health, and your ability to stand on your own financial feet.

[charis]

My parents could pay for the roof if we want.

We did talk to a realtor and she said that the roof not being finished will drive buyers away.

She said that even the way a picture is angled for their house listing online affects open house visits.

So a bad roof in a picture is going to cut our potential by a lot.

No one else finds this problematic?  As an adult, I've never thought to myself, "well, I have this money problem - my parents would pay for if I asked them."  It has never occurred to me, although my parents have offered to pay for many things over the years.   

I believe this mindset is part of your problem.   You don't have the money to fix the roof.  You already owe money to your parents, right?  Sell the damn thing asap.