FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.

[kork]

But there's also part of me, a growing part, that looks back at myself and doesn't like me. I look back at myself with disappointment and frustration. I don't like who I was anymore. I used to look back at my youth and myself with fondness.  I used to be able to look back with pride and say "those responsible choices and hard work have led to the successes I've experienced as an adult." I used to feel so much pride for being so responsible. I used to be proud of who I was and who I've become. I'm not anymore.

I know all the logical stuff. You made the best decisions you knew how to make at the time, use your knowledge to help your daughter, count your blessings.  But that's not what this is about.

I no longer like the teenage version of me, and it's creeping up to the adult version now.

Why do you think that is?

Your teenage self hasn't changed? What changed for you to go from being proud of your teenage self to not liking him?

I don't really know. It might be that I was just so wrong. And by being so wrong, there's a sense of naive vulnerability that transcends time. Almost like looking at a drone photo of yourself in the ocean and a massive shark beside you that you had no clue about. Sure, in hindsight, you're safe, but it's incredibly unsettling knowing what could have happened.

The kids that learned to break the rules and get away with stuff use those skills as adults and are refined in their ability to cheat and succeed.

There's just a big, gaping hole in my youth. I did not rebel. I did not push back. I didn't follow the crowd, drink, do drugs or listen to grunge or alt rock (Nirvana, REM, Cranberries, Oasis, etc). I had no ability to relate to the lyrics with pain and suffering. I figured it was because I was "doing it right." When mischief was in the horizon, I stayed clear because logically, no good could come from it.

While my peers felt the teenage angst, I strolled through it with naivety. I was a teacher pleaser, never in a fight, never at the principals office.

I was so average and unremarkable in every way. And now I listen to my daughter and her friends talk. Talk about guys and school and stuff. And it comes full circle because as my daughter(s) navigates through life, I, on the other side of the gender, become very aware that my advice and experience is from that of kid who was blind and clueless.

But equally, I want to smack my 15 year old self in the head and say "Have some fun! Let loose and relax kid" and so there's anger and frustration with myself and with my father that his actions conditioned me to navigate through my teen years staying clear of anything that would allow me let up a little. And my teen years led into my 20's and so on.

My wife's father who has 5 daughters, used to hang half naked girl posters in his basement and host teenage parties. This included a 12 year old son and 5 daughters ranging from 12-17 years old).  Alcohol and drugs and sex. It's like I'm surrounded by irresponsibility and recklessness. It gets to the point where you need to wonder... "Wait, what am I not seeing here?"

So I guess my teenage daughter is shining a light on how inadequate I was as a teenager and who am I to try to influence and educate? And if that same teenager became an adult, sure, I know how to make responsible decisions, but I'll now say that those aren't at all the best decisions.

Call it a significant imposter syndrome and one that's shining light on my lack of fun "best time of your life" experiences.

[kork]

I think you have every right to be disappointed and alarmed, but it reads like you are putting a lot on the 15 year old (maybe not literally but brunt of your reaction seem to be directed toward her behavior).  Including the incredible trauma of alcoholic father.  I'm going to assume that you prepped her for a scenario in which she is offered alcohol by her peers.  But I don't think one can ever really be prepared, as a young teen, for a friend's mother to give you shots that basically taste like alcoholic candy.  This is incredibly disturbing, criminal behavior by that parent.   

I'm not trying to put any of it on my daughter, only trying to find the lessons to be learned from it and talk to her about the experience. There I go again, Mr. f*cking responsible and everything is an opportunity... maybe I should just yell and scream at her... I'm like an agnostic Ned Flanders. "Everyting is fine-diddley-ine!"

And yes, the conversation of alcohol and drugs and peer pressure has occurred many times with many examples. In this situation, it's that the bottle of rum and coolers was so easily offered up by another parent without asking us. We don't even know this parent. Also, to clarify after I just spoke to my daughter. They weren't shots. It was a mixed drink of rum and fruit juice they made at the house before they went to the party. From there, they had coolers and the rum/mixed drink. Now it makes sense why the other girls were sick. They drank a bunch of rum that my daughter wasn't there for (at the end of the party before they were picked up).

[Metalcat]

Interesting.

The thing is, there's no way to do your teenage years "right" or life for that matter, there's only the way life goes and the things you learn from those experiences.

It sounds to me like the intense negative emotional experience you've been going through for some time is just colouring all of your experiences with a negative shadow.

My sister had teen years a lot like yours, with an intense pattern of people pleasing. She in therapy right now dealing with it, learning to reframe her teen years as not so much of model of what was "good" about her, but instead to see that behaviour as the product of bending to the will of what others saw as "good" about her.

However, the difference is that she's coming from a place of deep and loving compassion to her poor vulnerable past self, not judgement.

You sound very unkind towards the teenage you who was just doing their very best given the information he had been given. Of course he didn't have the capacity to go through his teens exactly right in a way that would set up adult you to be perfectly balanced, he wasn't equipped to do that, no teen was.

As I said, no one does their teen years with the perfect balance of leading to please people when it's important and learning to rebel and serve their own needs when it's most healthy.

Adults sometimes learn to do those things by reflecting on how poorly they managed them in their teen years.

It wasn't your teen self's job to get complex identity and interpersonal dynamics right. It's your adult job to try and understand what those choices meant for you then and what they mean for you now and how you can learn to be wiser and healthier moving forward.

You should be proud of that kid for doing so much good for himself. You shouldn't blame him for not knowing that there would have also been some benefit to rebelling within reason. That wasn't his job to know that. He did his best with what he knew.

And guess what, a future version of yourself is going to have to look back at you now with that same loving compassion and recognize that with your kid, you're doing the best you can with what you know now. Twenty years from now, based on how your kid turns out, you will have a very different perspective as to what you did well and what you would have done differently had you known the outcome.

When I was a teen, my mom was convinced she was fucking up I'm a specific way. She doubled down on doing the thing she thought was 'righy' and it backfired on her horribly and made mine and my brother's lives miserable.

In retrospect, she realizes she was working off of bad information, she was basing her perspective of teenagers on her teen years. Except our situations were opposite, she was a wild child and I was the well behaved good kid.

Years later and I turned out to be a happy and successful adult and she recognizes her mistakes, but is kind to herself about them because she just didn't realize that she never needed to worry about me doing the shit she did.

Everyone makes mistakes because no one has all of the information they need to do everything perfectly. You won't know the missteps you are taking with your kids until they grow up themselves. You also won't know the things you thought were mistakes at the time that your kid later on says "I so appreciated that you did XYZ, it was a huge influence on me making ABC wise life decisions."

All you can do is reflect and learn.

So what can you learn by approaching your teen self with a compassionate, loving understanding?

[MaybeBabyMustache]

I was an "excellent" teen, by most measures. Got great grades, full ride scholarship, avoided parties, didn't drink until college, was friends with the "good" kids, stayed out of trouble, listened to my parents, in fact ratted on my sister for being on the wilder side (regrets)... You know what that got me? A lot of feeling like I had to continue to impress everyone, and always "do the right thing". I married someone that was "the right guy", because many people in my small town got married at a very young age, and it was "the right thing" to do. . . unsurprisingly, it wasn't right for me.

I look back on my teenage years, my own decisions, my failed marriage... all as things that led me to where I am now. I'm happily married, have two teen boys I'm doing my best to raise with a slightly lower bar on "the right thing", we discuss failures, etc. I'm working on dialing back the people pleasing, but whoa, that's a strong one. I also try to live my life generally with minimal regrets. Do I wish I'd had more fun as a teen? Sure, but what about if that had meant no scholarship, or insert other outcomes here. What's the point of beating myself up? I screwed up A LOT in my 20s. So much finding myself. So many mistakes. I try to look back on the 20 year old me & also have minimal regrets. It all led me to where I am now, and I try to really be gracious with myself. Life is a journey, and a growth opportunity. You sound like you are so hard on yourself. Is there a way you can reframe your negative feelings into something else?

On your daughter, I'd be really unimpressed with the other parent. I have a 15 y.o. and a 16 y.o, and I'd lose it if a parent offered them alcohol.

[mistymoney]

I think you have every right to be disappointed and alarmed, but it reads like you are putting a lot on the 15 year old (maybe not literally but brunt of your reaction seem to be directed toward her behavior).  Including the incredible trauma of alcoholic father.  I'm going to assume that you prepped her for a scenario in which she is offered alcohol by her peers.  But I don't think one can ever really be prepared, as a young teen, for a friend's mother to give you shots that basically taste like alcoholic candy.  This is incredibly disturbing, criminal behavior by that parent.   

that was my immediate thought. WTF? I'd definitely consider reporting to the police.

[Wolfpack Mustachian]

I think you have every right to be disappointed and alarmed, but it reads like you are putting a lot on the 15 year old (maybe not literally but brunt of your reaction seem to be directed toward her behavior).  Including the incredible trauma of alcoholic father.  I'm going to assume that you prepped her for a scenario in which she is offered alcohol by her peers.  But I don't think one can ever really be prepared, as a young teen, for a friend's mother to give you shots that basically taste like alcoholic candy.  This is incredibly disturbing, criminal behavior by that parent.   

that was my immediate thought. WTF? I'd definitely consider reporting to the police.

Seriously. I would be livid. Kids do stupid stuff. Adults should know better.

[charis]

I think you have every right to be disappointed and alarmed, but it reads like you are putting a lot on the 15 year old (maybe not literally but brunt of your reaction seem to be directed toward her behavior).  Including the incredible trauma of alcoholic father.  I'm going to assume that you prepped her for a scenario in which she is offered alcohol by her peers.  But I don't think one can ever really be prepared, as a young teen, for a friend's mother to give you shots that basically taste like alcoholic candy.  This is incredibly disturbing, criminal behavior by that parent.   

I'm not trying to put any of it on my daughter, only trying to find the lessons to be learned from it and talk to her about the experience. There I go again, Mr. f*cking responsible and everything is an opportunity... maybe I should just yell and scream at her... I'm like an agnostic Ned Flanders. "Everyting is fine-diddley-ine!"

And yes, the conversation of alcohol and drugs and peer pressure has occurred many times with many examples. In this situation, it's that the bottle of rum and coolers was so easily offered up by another parent without asking us. We don't even know this parent. Also, to clarify after I just spoke to my daughter. They weren't shots. It was a mixed drink of rum and fruit juice they made at the house before they went to the party. From there, they had coolers and the rum/mixed drink. Now it makes sense why the other girls were sick. They drank a bunch of rum that my daughter wasn't there for (at the end of the party before they were picked up).

I didn't explain myself well.  I didn't mean that you are taking your emotional reaction out on your daughter, but for yourself, most of your post was centered around her "betrayal and her behavior," as if she isn't the person that you believed her to be.  I don't think it matters whether the drinks were shots, the other parent engaged in very inappropriate behavior with children. 

[LightStache]

I think you have every right to be disappointed and alarmed, but it reads like you are putting a lot on the 15 year old (maybe not literally but brunt of your reaction seem to be directed toward her behavior).  Including the incredible trauma of alcoholic father.  I'm going to assume that you prepped her for a scenario in which she is offered alcohol by her peers.  But I don't think one can ever really be prepared, as a young teen, for a friend's mother to give you shots that basically taste like alcoholic candy.  This is incredibly disturbing, criminal behavior by that parent.   

that was my immediate thought. WTF? I'd definitely consider reporting to the police.

Or, maybe, talk to them first?

[mistymoney]

I think you have every right to be disappointed and alarmed, but it reads like you are putting a lot on the 15 year old (maybe not literally but brunt of your reaction seem to be directed toward her behavior).  Including the incredible trauma of alcoholic father.  I'm going to assume that you prepped her for a scenario in which she is offered alcohol by her peers.  But I don't think one can ever really be prepared, as a young teen, for a friend's mother to give you shots that basically taste like alcoholic candy.  This is incredibly disturbing, criminal behavior by that parent.   

that was my immediate thought. WTF? I'd definitely consider reporting to the police.

Or, maybe, talk to them first?

someone gave my teenager shots and then dropped them off in the wild with more alcohol?

no. they could have broached the topic (like, I was gonna....ok with you?) before pulling "cool mom" at the expense of my kids safety.

It's illegal. and they could have been prosecuted for any crimes or injury or loss of life that accurred.

They have burned through the 'courtesy' veil on interactions.

[Missy B]

Omg @Malcat your advice is gold!!!

Oh, I also forgot to mention: avoid asking questions. Learn to get to know people without always directly asking questions. People will naturally comment more openly when their participation on a topic feels organic. They'll go into their pre-programmed scripts that they use to seem cool and likeable if you ask them direct questions. Again, this is an intimacy killer.

This is well known in psychology, it's why therapists are trained to be judicious with asking questions, and why the best first dates always have the least amount of questions.

It's counter intuitive, as you would think that asking a lot of questions would show that you are listening and taking an interest, but it's actually a controlling behaviour and makes the other person feel observed, not listened to.

Sometimes I think we should pay you to be here.

[Metalcat]

Sometimes I think we should pay you to be here.

It goes both ways, being here has taught me an enormous amount about people. Forums single handedly taught me how to talk to people effectively.

[charis]

Omg @Malcat your advice is gold!!!

Oh, I also forgot to mention: avoid asking questions. Learn to get to know people without always directly asking questions. People will naturally comment more openly when their participation on a topic feels organic. They'll go into their pre-programmed scripts that they use to seem cool and likeable if you ask them direct questions. Again, this is an intimacy killer.

This is well known in psychology, it's why therapists are trained to be judicious with asking questions, and why the best first dates always have the least amount of questions.

It's counter intuitive, as you would think that asking a lot of questions would show that you are listening and taking an interest, but it's actually a controlling behaviour and makes the other person feel observed, not listened to.

I need to apply this to conversations with my kid.  I was asking direct, but non-controversial questions about school in the car yesterday and you'd have thought I was trying to interrogate a murder suspect with a good defense attorney.

[Metalcat]

Omg @Malcat your advice is gold!!!

Oh, I also forgot to mention: avoid asking questions. Learn to get to know people without always directly asking questions. People will naturally comment more openly when their participation on a topic feels organic. They'll go into their pre-programmed scripts that they use to seem cool and likeable if you ask them direct questions. Again, this is an intimacy killer.

This is well known in psychology, it's why therapists are trained to be judicious with asking questions, and why the best first dates always have the least amount of questions.

It's counter intuitive, as you would think that asking a lot of questions would show that you are listening and taking an interest, but it's actually a controlling behaviour and makes the other person feel observed, not listened to.

I need to apply this to conversations with my kid.  I was asking direct, but non-controversial questions about school in the car yesterday and you'd have thought I was trying to interrogate a murder suspect with a good defense attorney.

Lol, yep.

It's kind of hilarious that we've all been taught very BADLY how to connect with people. It's like how people think being a good listener means talking less than the other person. Oops...

My DH isn't much of a sharer, especially about anything vulnerable, so our conversations about anything deep mostly consist of me stating what I understand to be his perceptions and feelings, and all he has to do it confirm or correct me.

I'm REALLY good with teens because I just outright state fairly universal experiences that teens have and they either feel remarkably understood and therefore respected, or they feel the burning need to correct me.

So instead of "how was your first day at school?" I would say "the first day of school is always weird because there's a lot of unknown, it can be either exciting or intimidating or both. I don't know how anyone goes into without nerves because even though it's the same school and all the same people, teens change so much so quickly, all the teachers are different, and all of the courses are different. So it's super familiar and completely different at the same time. That's kind of messed up."

Even if your kid says nothing, they'll get way more from you than if you just put them on the spot to express their most vulnerable feelings in command.

[kork]

So an update.

My depression is all but gone. I remain very aware though that I have a predisposition towards it as well as its ugly, nasty, demon-spawn cousin, anxiety.

Depression combined with raising teenage girls has completely changed my outlook on life. It's been partially replaced with resilience and a dash of bitterness and consistent mild anger and frustration.  I feel as though my level of resilience has skyrocketed through this very, very harsh period of time. At the same time, I've hardened.

Parenting is an ever-consuming, guilt-laden journey, filled with emotional challenges. It's a relentless rollercoaster ride that can leave us constantly questioning our choices and wondering if we’ve made irreparable mistakes. And it gets worse and compounds as the years go on.

As a parent, I strive to raise my girls to be morally upright and kind-hearted individuals. But as the world evolves, I worry if these values are enough to protect them from the harsh realities of survival. Am I nurturing lionesses who can navigate through life's challenges, or am I unwittingly raising vulnerable gazelles destined to be consumed by a predator? The doubt creeps in, and what once felt like confident parenting suddenly seems shrouded in uncertainty.

And then the teenage years hit right at the beginning of f*cking COVID and the lockdowns, magnifying the complexities. The familiar faces of my kids friends who have shared countless sleepovers, play dates and fun times, embark on dark paths of substance abuse and addiction. The same children who once dressed up for Halloween now bear the scars of razor blades on their legs and arms, their self-worth eroded by the relentless influence of social media. Bullying is no longer confined to school hours; it follows them, capturing every word and action, casting a shadow on their every move. Government funded special interest groups (Holocaust, Indigenous, LGBTQIA+, BLM, etc) conduct school sessions hammering kids and why they're responsible and are living a life of privilege. Being told they need to bear the responsibilities for the actions of their forefathers. Good kids from nurturing families. Tough kids from broken families. Everyone is at risk. Everyone is guilty.

A friend's daughter is hospitalized for a suicide attempt. 70 Oxycodone pills, 20 Zoloft pills and vodka to wash it down at a public park, stomach pumped and in the ICU for 3 days. She's 16 and an honour's student. Another friend faces a similar heartbreak when his daughter is hospitalized for a week for a suicide attempt. It’s upsetting to witness as they try to navigate and also leaves me questioning the hidden struggles that might be brewing beneath my own roof. I strive to maintain perspective, but there's an unnerving awareness of the things I might not know. I think to myself, "Not my daughters,” hoping desperately that my family is shielded from such despair. The influence of their peers, of social media and the world in general is overwhelming for so many of them.

Only, my daughters have not been shielded. They've both been in therapy for self harm. Not because they were prone to it, but because it's so f*cking common with teen girls! Their experience with it was short lived and I worked with them to help them through it. It's been over a year now and there's new coping techniques in place.

This is a particularly difficult phase for me. The whole 12-16 years old phase of my daughters. My best friend from 12-16 took a different path than I did at my kids age right now.

He's dead. When he turned 40 all of his organs shut down all from substance abuse.

And what does the world see on the outside when looking at my family? A beautiful family. A family with a beautiful daughter that's sweet and caring and empathetic who would give her shirt off her back to anyone who needs it.

Another beautiful blonde haired daughter who's recently won her first violin scholarship, a competitive swimmer, an academic medallion winning straight-A student and french award winner at her recent grade 8 graduation who's more self-aware than most adults I know. She's not pressured to do these things. She's self-motivated and supported.

A nice house in a safe neighbourhood. A BMW in the driveway. Money in the bank.

This is what it looks like from the outside.

But underneath lurks demons and I'm trying desperately to shield my daughters from them.

My father-in-law is a whining adult baby who's never done anything for himself. He kicks problems down the field and isn't accountable for anything, expecting others to step in and fix things. Only, now he's in his mid 70's, has no money, is diabetic and a host of other health issues. He's isolated himself. Whenever anyone visits he complains they don't visit more often... "Um, people are here right now. Rather than guilting people why not be pleasant to encourage more visits?"

He's such a stupid man. And my wife is walking a similar trail. She's got osteoarthritis. She's had physio for it. Is she doing the exercises they suggest? No, not at all. She's just going to leave it until, one day, she needs a hip replacement. Let's kick the ball down the field.

She's relatively absent with our children. She barely even knows our kids friends names, I know all of them. She gets home from her job and watches tv or sets the house into a negative mood because the dishes aren't yet done. I tell her "Hey, rather than watching mindless tv, why not go and spend time with your daughters?" and she does. But then the next day, it's back to the TV because "she needs to unwind from the day." My youngest daughter is desperate for a relationship with her mom. But her mom only know how to parent and and she learned from a dimwitted father.

Of course, these are just words. It doesn't include the thoughtful things my wife does which, she does. She's not a villain. But things are certainly different now than they were years ago.

So, I'm trapped in this house and trying to figure out where to go to next.  I don't want to buy another home with my wife because I don't know what the future has in store and the cost to sell the home we're in now is about $100k after fees, etc. I have no plans on staying in this city after the kids are done school.

But in Canada, real estate is absolutely stupid.  We've got so much immigration happening (highest in the world) and no services or housing to accommodate. And so real estate is sky high. A friend of mine just bought a home in a subdivision. Nice home, but nothing special. Not a special city either. His mortgage after a 20% downpayment is $7k/month. His property taxes are $14k a year to top it off. Yep, he's paying over $100k/year after his mortgage, property taxes, skyrocketing utilities.

My parents divorced when I was a teenager. When I was my kids age, we were navigating through a very difficult time. My life became unsettled and I struggled. It was very messy since my parents swapped with another couple and remarried. Only, it was a long drawn out ordeal shrouded in substance abuse and other violence I don't care to get back into. So my step siblings are double step siblings which doesn't make it easier or closer, especially into adulthood. It just creates an imbalance growing up between two households.

So there's a lot of stuff going on. Much is triggered with me trying to be a responsible, stable dad and navigating through not only the challenges of today, but reliving my own childhood trying to keep their course on the right path. I'm holding my own but my footing remains unstable. I hate living today hoping for a better tomorrow.

If I didn't have children, the house would be gone and I'd have my stuff in storage (or a small condo just to maintain a foothold on this stupid real-estate economy). From there, I suspect that I'd take a year off and just travel the world solo to regroup and reset everything. Not sure about my wife.  We've been together 25 years. We don't have a history of giving up but I'm also well aware that people can't share the same story their entire lives. Our stories may be diverging.

Sorry for rambling, sometimes writing things out and re-reading helps to provide clarity and perspective.

[Sibley]

Several thoughts have come to me while reading through your posts.

First, humans are not perfect. We are capable of great evil, great indifference, but also of great kindness and compassion. Humans are also capable of reflection and change. There are contradictions and inconsistencies that both must be accounted for yet are extremely difficult to account for. You can choose to see only the good, you can choose to see only the bad, but both views are incomplete and will leave you lacking.

Second, your wife sounds like she might have some depression or something going on. Or possibly your emotional struggles have damaged the relationship and she's reacting. Regardless, you have a choice: attempt to engage, or disengage. If you attempt to engage, she may not respond. Or she may. You won't know until you try. It may not work, or it might. And you can put action off, for years possibly, but that just leaves things festering under the surface. It's your decision.

Third, your children are not you, and you are not them. You are different people, in different circumstances. How you responded to a given situation may not be how your daughter would respond. This is not wrong or right, it just is. They have to make their own choices, and their own mistakes, and while you can guide and assist for now, in the end it is not your decision. Not your life. However much you might wish it differently. As a parent, your job is to raise a child to be an adult. You are in the latter stages of this, where you have less and less control every day. It is difficult, but it is life, and your daughters would rightly push you away if you didn't step back on your own.

Forth, life is not fair. People get sick and die. People get hurt. The bad people win. There is no cosmic scoreboard. Life happens as it happens. It just is. Which is very difficult to accept, especially when life is throwing mud and rocks at you.

Which brings me to the final: Life is also beautiful. Even amongst the dark and mud and rocks, there is light and beauty. No matter how bad things are, you can still look around and see something that is beautiful and good. It helps to try to find some, no matter how small. Young children help you see this, so do animals.

You've been through the wringer, and you seem to be doing better. I hope that things continue to be brighter.

[kork]

I appreciate the time and thought you put into your response. Thank-you.

Several thoughts have come to me while reading through your posts.

First, humans are not perfect. We are capable of great evil, great indifference, but also of great kindness and compassion. Humans are also capable of reflection and change. There are contradictions and inconsistencies that both must be accounted for yet are extremely difficult to account for. You can choose to see only the good, you can choose to see only the bad, but both views are incomplete and will leave you lacking.

Second, your wife sounds like she might have some depression or something going on. Or possibly your emotional struggles have damaged the relationship and she's reacting. Regardless, you have a choice: attempt to engage, or disengage. If you attempt to engage, she may not respond. Or she may. You won't know until you try. It may not work, or it might. And you can put action off, for years possibly, but that just leaves things festering under the surface. It's your decision.

I'm okay where things are at right now for what they are. It used to be the case that I felt like I was putting in 70% effort and she was putting in 30%. Now, it feels like she's still at 30%, but so am I.  It's difficult to put into words the feelings and emotion. 

I don't believe she's depressed. Her behaviour hasn't changed. She just is who she is. 10 years ago, 15 years ago... 20 years ago. It was the same. She was just younger and had more energy. I still have the same level of energy. Her motivation was always driven by me. I've stopped taking that on. To your point, we're separate people.  It used to feel like we were a unified team.  Now, it feels like we're playing two different games. She hasn't changed. I have. I am aware of that.

Third, your children are not you, and you are not them. You are different people, in different circumstances. How you responded to a given situation may not be how your daughter would respond. This is not wrong or right, it just is. They have to make their own choices, and their own mistakes, and while you can guide and assist for now, in the end it is not your decision. Not your life. However much you might wish it differently. As a parent, your job is to raise a child to be an adult. You are in the latter stages of this, where you have less and less control every day. It is difficult, but it is life, and your daughters would rightly push you away if you didn't step back on your own.

This is an interesting one and I do know what you're intending in spirit. However, our children are very much us. Physiologically, their DNA, predisposition and family history towards addiction or mental illness. Much of it is hereditary and baked into us from the day we're born. They also learn a great deal from their parents for the first number of years of their lives and their peer groups are often orchestrated and nurtured by parents. And when you see certain attributes coming out in your children that you recognize and feel to your core because you have the exact same thoughts is quite amazing.

But there's a differentiator as you also pointed out. They need to make their own choices and decisions with their lives.

When children are born, it's all about rules and schedule. Go to bed, eat your food, etc. And from those rules, the relationship builds each and every day.  By the time they're 18 (ish) the rules no longer exist and is completely replaced with the relationship. I've always tried to replace rules with the girls making their own decisions and making wise choices. They have tremendous freedom and I try hard not to project, but rather, guide.

The sensitivities for me are not that I'm trying hard to keep my kids from doing things. My dad was a raging alcoholic. My best friend died from substance abuse. I didn't drink a single drop of alcohol until I was well into my 20's. Despite my challenges with it, I'm not projecting that on my kids. I have no issues with my daughters drinking a cooler or wine or a small shot of vodka. I was there to pick up my daughter from her first drunk bush party last fall. Another mom drowned them in alcohol and dropped them off in a bush with 100 other kids. I knew about the party, wasn't aware the other mom would do that. We had a discussion about that, but that's all it was.

The challenge is that I'm thrust back into my memories and discomfort. My brain tends to do a terrible parenting trick to me. I'm highly connected to my own past and the emotions with it. I refer back to it a lot, especially now to try to navigate as a parent.

I had a conversation the other day with my youngest daughter about how tiring it is to always try to look at the best in everything or approach everything with curiosity. Sometime we just want to get mad!

Parenting is exhausting.

Forth, life is not fair. People get sick and die. People get hurt. The bad people win. There is no cosmic scoreboard. Life happens as it happens. It just is. Which is very difficult to accept, especially when life is throwing mud and rocks at you.

Which brings me to the final: Life is also beautiful. Even amongst the dark and mud and rocks, there is light and beauty. No matter how bad things are, you can still look around and see something that is beautiful and good. It helps to try to find some, no matter how small. Young children help you see this, so do animals.

You've been through the wringer, and you seem to be doing better. I hope that things continue to be brighter.

50% of me feels that feels like the universe is indifferent. It doesn't care. To your point, life is not fair.

But that's not what I'm teaching my daughters. There's the other part of me that feels like it's more connected than we may be aware. I'm teaching them about karma, law of attraction, the secret, the golden rule, call it what you will. What you put into the universe will come back. Not how you intend it though. It's not a tit for tat. But be a good person. Don't be a jerk. Look for the best in everything, the learning opportunity, the blessing, be curious. The world is their playground.

It's so hard to do while you feel like you're shouldering the weight of the world.

[BicycleB]

It sounds like life feels very difficult, but that you are persevering while you make your own internal shifts.

That your daughters seem more stable than during the self-harm episode is encouraging.

Somewhere I read that relationships need cultivation to survive the difficult times, and that a sign that precedes a breakup is that one party or another stops trying in ssome way. It seems to me that I remember earlier times where you describe your wife as being quite forgiving, thoughtful or encouraging in moments where you yourself felt too dragged out to continue. As an outsider, my first thought is to hope that you renew the effort and reap a relationship that deepens further in some good way. But you know yourself better; maybe withdrawing from the effort is a form of self-care for you. Good luck in any case.

[kork]

It sounds like life feels very difficult, but that you are persevering while you make your own internal shifts.

That your daughters seem more stable than during the self-harm episode is encouraging.

They're actually doing very well. For that I'm grateful. They've had struggles, but I believe that one of their biggest struggles (especially for my youngest) right now is trying to define a relationship with their mom who is inadvertently inattentive. This puts additional pressure on me as I'm trying NOT to be the parent who's part of everything. The girls want their mom, she wants to focus on trivial stuff like laundry, watching tv or whatever. It's hard to describe.  I don't know what it is.

She's almost like the neighbours mom in "American Beauty" minus the depression. She's just inattentive and without me pushing, she just falls into a routine. Work. TV. Laundry. Weekend, Wine.

Somewhere I read that relationships need cultivation to survive the difficult times, and that a sign that precedes a breakup is that one party or another stops trying in ssome way. It seems to me that I remember earlier times where you describe your wife as being quite forgiving, thoughtful or encouraging in moments where you yourself felt too dragged out to continue. As an outsider, my first thought is to hope that you renew the effort and reap a relationship that deepens further in some good way. But you know yourself better; maybe withdrawing from the effort is a form of self-care for you. Good luck in any case.

A form of self-care feels like it hits the spot. The barriers I've created are almost there in an attempt to limit my emotional vulnerability I once had with my wife. I fear that she's not making good decisions and following the path of her father, unknowingly, even though it's being pointed out to her. I don't know what to do and so nothing short of watching the moth fly towards the light with a fixed trance, I'm slowly leaning away from it. I tried and I tried to show her, but it's just not working.

My therapist told me that it sounds as though I simply have much more "capacity" than my wife. It's not a good thing or a bad thing, but there are people who simply do more with their lives. My wife's capacity is low it would appear.  I've just been blind to it. She's always been integrated into my capacity. In fact, my therapist said that his wife's capacity was lower than his also. It doesn't change anything, just helps to set set expectations and makes sure they're realistic.

My younger daughter had significantly more capacity than my older one. It doesn't mean I love one less than the other.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

I'm sure you've tried this, but are there areas of interest that your wife could cultivate with your daughters? I would describe myself as the "primary parent" at home, although my husband is also very involved, I definitely do more parenting. I find myself sometimes doing box checking parenting some days (make sure there is a clean shirt for work, lunches made/food available, remind them of schedules, ask casually about the day but don't really engage as much as I would if I had more energy.) Finding a shared interest or hobby could help. We've been watching a lot of Wimbledon together (and also play tennis occasionally) & it's really fun to have a common link.

I also find that I'm a more engaged parent on vacation. Without all of the life responsibilities (dinner planning, work, calendar management, etc), we are more able to focus on fun things. We often plan very active vacations (skiing, beach with lots of water sports, hiking, exploring, etc) & that's always fun for bonding. It also helps create memories that we reference later.

[kork]

I'm sure you've tried this, but are there areas of interest that your wife could cultivate with your daughters? I would describe myself as the "primary parent" at home, although my husband is also very involved, I definitely do more parenting. I find myself sometimes doing box checking parenting some days (make sure there is a clean shirt for work, lunches made/food available, remind them of schedules, ask casually about the day but don't really engage as much as I would if I had more energy.) Finding a shared interest or hobby could help. We've been watching a lot of Wimbledon together (and also play tennis occasionally) & it's really fun to have a common link.

I also find that I'm a more engaged parent on vacation. Without all of the life responsibilities (dinner planning, work, calendar management, etc), we are more able to focus on fun things. We often plan very active vacations (skiing, beach with lots of water sports, hiking, exploring, etc) & that's always fun for bonding. It also helps create memories that we reference later.

Yep, I've tried.  A good example is that we have done an outdoor festival for the past couple years. It's 2 hours away. This time around, my wife mentioned to me that she was going to stay at home and do "house work" and get caught up. I told her that the kids would be disappointed. The next morning, she still chose to stay home.  My kids got to bring a friend and the conversation and backseat banter for 2 hours was so much fun. Sharing music, talking about school, chatting, gossip...  It's so nice to overhear conversation and be part of some of it when the time is right. My wife missed all of it. Why? Because she's already been to the festival and felt like it was the goal. Why go to the same thing another year in a row?

For me, the drive was the best part.  The festival was just the destination. Overall, it was a fun day. My wife got to do her laundry.

That's just one recent example.

[curious_george]

Omg @Malcat your advice is gold!!!

Oh, I also forgot to mention: avoid asking questions. Learn to get to know people without always directly asking questions. People will naturally comment more openly when their participation on a topic feels organic. They'll go into their pre-programmed scripts that they use to seem cool and likeable if you ask them direct questions. Again, this is an intimacy killer.

This is well known in psychology, it's why therapists are trained to be judicious with asking questions, and why the best first dates always have the least amount of questions.

It's counter intuitive, as you would think that asking a lot of questions would show that you are listening and taking an interest, but it's actually a controlling behaviour and makes the other person feel observed, not listened to.

I need to apply this to conversations with my kid.  I was asking direct, but non-controversial questions about school in the car yesterday and you'd have thought I was trying to interrogate a murder suspect with a good defense attorney.

Lol, yep.

It's kind of hilarious that we've all been taught very BADLY how to connect with people. It's like how people think being a good listener means talking less than the other person. Oops...

My DH isn't much of a sharer, especially about anything vulnerable, so our conversations about anything deep mostly consist of me stating what I understand to be his perceptions and feelings, and all he has to do it confirm or correct me.

I'm REALLY good with teens because I just outright state fairly universal experiences that teens have and they either feel remarkably understood and therefore respected, or they feel the burning need to correct me.

So instead of "how was your first day at school?" I would say "the first day of school is always weird because there's a lot of unknown, it can be either exciting or intimidating or both. I don't know how anyone goes into without nerves because even though it's the same school and all the same people, teens change so much so quickly, all the teachers are different, and all of the courses are different. So it's super familiar and completely different at the same time. That's kind of messed up."

Even if your kid says nothing, they'll get way more from you than if you just put them on the spot to express their most vulnerable feelings in command.

Ok....

While this is excellent advice, and I am always taking notes when I read your posts about how to best interact with people, and I'm not trying to invalidate your experience or personal feelings about  someone asking you questions about your life.

I feel obligated to point out that - this isn't universally true, and how people respond and feel about their interactions and relationships with people sort of depends on the context of the relationship and how they perceive you and how they perceive themselves.

For example.

If someone takes a keen interest in me, to the point of asking me a ton of very direct and very personal questions about my life, I almost always view this in a positive manner and feel good about this sort of interaction.

It makes me feel like someone cares enough about me to pay attention to me, to learn about who I am as a person, and that they have a positive perception of me as an individual so much that they want to make that sort of intellectual and emotional investment in learning about me to develop some sort of friendship.

I also LOVE talking about myself and sharing my thoughts and feelings, with virtually anyone who will listen, and someone asking me direct questions is the quickest and easiest way to learn about me.

If someone tries to guess what I'm thinking and feeling, I feel obligated to validate what they already think and not correct them at all, sometimes because I am scared of not validating what the person already thinks.

This also sort of feels like someone is manipulating me at times, because I feel like even my thoughts and feelings must agree with what they think already, so I feel like I shouldn't disagree with the person and instead validate what they think so as not to upset the other person.

It also sort of makes me feel like what I think and feel is already being invalidated, because it feels like the other person assumes they know more about what is going through my own head than I do. Which makes me feel like I am being talked down to.

This combination of feelings causes this approach to not work very well on me, and I may just wind up lying to you to validate your perception, instead of really talking about my actual feelings with you.

Of course my feelings might be sort of neurodivergent from a normal person, as you are very aware I think, lol.

Again - not trying to invalidate this advice. I think it's excellent advice. I just don't feel like it is is universally true for everyone.

Thank you for this post though. It does help me to better understand how to interact with people, I think. 

[Cassie]

I haven’t read your entire journal but it sounds like you and your wife are in a rut. Maybe her job is leaving her too exhausted to engage at home. If you haven’t already tried couples counseling it might be helpful.

It’s a shame that she is really missing out on the kid’s last years at home because soon they will be adults and those years will be gone. But there’s nothing you can do other than encouraging her to participate in family activities. Many marriages end once the kids are grown because couples grow apart and change.

Now in my 60’s the most important thing in my life is my children. I enjoy our relationship and am so grateful to have them. I have an active full life with friends and my dogs also.  There’s no point in resenting the aging process as it’s inevitable if you are lucky enough to be alive to take the journey.

[Mrs. Healthywealth]

Thanks for sharing all of this info @kork .

Depression and anxiety are bff’s, they love to hang out together. Many times the exhaustion of racing thoughts and hyper vigilance lead to fatigue and exhaustion changing body language and slowing you down physiologically, leading to depression and vice versa. The balance of who likes to show up and how often varies for each person.

When you have anxiety, there’s a gorgeous portion of our brain, the amygdala that that gets bigger and bigger, leading to increased anxiety. The tools you’re using, mindfulness, yoga, therapy, etc. all help decrease that portion of the brain, leading to decreased anxiety. When you have anxiety, it also can increase hyper vigilance and increase in unhelpful thoughts. When you say words like “demon”, you better believe you brain, whose #1 job is to protect you, is going to do whatever it can to save you from demons, which can lead to increased…anxiety. The words you use matter, and from the 35,000 plus thoughts a day we all have, when we experience anxiety and depression, there is a tendency to focus more on the unhelpful thought patterns. Your therapist may have already told you this.

All behavior has a purpose. If your wife is watching tv and other activities that keep her from being present, that can be an avoidance response, which is also a fight/flight protective mode.

The more accepting we become of ourselves, the more accepting we become of others…which it sounds like you have. The more you view yourself as capable, the more you believe others have the capability of getting through their difficulties as well.

My fave intervention to use is teaching them compassion (too long to go into the details of why here). A great website that can be helpful for this is selcompassion.org. If you click under practices it has great meditations and exercises that can be help.

Looking forward to seeing your continued growth.

[curious_george]

Thanks for sharing all of this info @kork .

Depression and anxiety are bff’s, they love to hang out together. Many times the exhaustion of racing thoughts and hyper vigilance lead to fatigue and exhaustion changing body language and slowing you down physiologically, leading to depression and vice versa. The balance of who likes to show up and how often varies for each person.

When you have anxiety, there’s a gorgeous portion of our brain, the amygdala that that gets bigger and bigger, leading to increased anxiety. The tools you’re using, mindfulness, yoga, therapy, etc. all help decrease that portion of the brain, leading to decreased anxiety. When you have anxiety, it also can increase hyper vigilance and increase in unhelpful thoughts. When you say words like “demon”, you better believe you brain, whose #1 job is to protect you, is going to do whatever it can to save you from demons, which can lead to increased…anxiety. The words you use matter, and from the 35,000 plus thoughts a day we all have, when we experience anxiety and depression, there is a tendency to focus more on the unhelpful thought patterns. Your therapist may have already told you this.

All behavior has a purpose. If your wife is watching tv and other activities that keep her from being present, that can be an avoidance response, which is also a fight/flight protective mode.

The more accepting we become of ourselves, the more accepting we become of others…which it sounds like you have. The more you view yourself as capable, the more you believe others have the capability of getting through their difficulties as well.

My fave intervention to use is teaching them compassion (too long to go into the details of why here). A great website that can be helpful for this is selcompassion.org. If you click under practices it has great meditations and exercises that can be help.

Looking forward to seeing your continued growth.

Wow...

I am not the O.P., but as someone else who has always suffered from anxiety and depression, this might be the most helpful post I have read on these forums in the past four years.

Thank you for sharing this.

[slappy]

I'm really struck by the difference in how you describe your wife in your first post compared to how you describe her in your update. I didn't read a lot in between, at least not today. I'm sure I did back when it was originally posted. Has your wife participated in any therapy with you?

[kork]

I'm really struck by the difference in how you describe your wife in your first post compared to how you describe her in your update. I didn't read a lot in between, at least not today. I'm sure I did back when it was originally posted. Has your wife participated in any therapy with you?

I just had to re-read my original post.

No, my wife has never participated in therapy with me. This is a "me" problem as it exists. My wife can get therapy if she would like, but she hasn't hinted towards it at all, and that's with the many, many sessions I've had. She's just kindof wandering, blindly into her years. Not paying attention to her health or fitness. I was always the driver for it. If I don't push her, she won't exercise. And I can't do it anymore. Her father is the same way, only now he's broke, has health issues, diabetes and is a petulant child wanting others to take care of him. I see my wife being the same way in 20 years and I wonder if I'm emotionally isolating myself to allow me to control the upset on my own, rather than "all of a sudden" which is evident in my first post in this thread.

In another wonderfully timed thread, https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/please-help-me-help-my-parents/ @Sibley wrote "Bottom line - as long as they have food, medical care, and a good enough roof over their heads, it's ok to let them live the expected consequences of their choices."

Much has changed in 4 years since my original post which I've contributed here the best I could. I may end up re-reading it some day, but to be honest, it's quite troubling. It's very raw and emotional.

My daughters' best friend's parent's got divorced 6 months ago. Many of their friends parents are now divorced and it terrifies my one daughter.  She stresses out about it at night, mainly because, as she puts it, her life is so amazing and she's afraid of it breaking. She asked me a few months ago "Do you and mom love eachother?"

I told her:

"Sweetie, I can tell you that during the last 25 years, at times I've loved your mother more than anyone can love anyone on this planet. We're talking so much emotion and feeling of closeness it's not even something that can be put into words. We've also gone through difficult times which can cloud that emotion and life complicates things. Right now, we're going through a bit of a rough patch, but we're not giving up. If there's one thing we've proven in the last 25 years is that we don't hit a roadblock and give up. We work through it. And there's nothing that you and your sister can do because you guys are wonderful. Your mother and I need to work through our struggles."

And that satisfied her inquiring mind. As a parent, I try to make everything age appropriate, including difficult subjects. I don't just say "oh nevermind" or "you don't need to worry about any of that." Many of the kids today all think that relationships ending is toxic.  I'm trying to explain to my daughters that life is long and sometimes we're on a journey with someone else, and sometimes journey's grow apart.  There's no need for it to end in hatred and hostility. Embrace the wonderful memories you shared and don't become hateful. Perhaps easier to say than to do but if my parents had done that, I have no doubt it would have made a positive influence.

When I was a kid, my mom couldn't afford our mortgage without child support. She had worked for the family business my dad took over in the divorce. She supported him and the business. My dad would often arrive late with the child support cheque or write out my moms name wrong to make it difficult to deposit. That led to adding water to the apple juice cans or making dollars stretch in many other ways. And then it got worse. Much worse. Violence, bloody knuckles, fear, upset. My dad is now in his 70's, has battled through cancer and other significant ailments. He's much calmer now and a different person so that's good.

I've always been the money person in the relationship. I made sure years and years ago that my wife had enough control of her finances that if something went down and she needed to care for the kids, she could. She would never be in the position of fearing to not be able to pay the mortgage. My kids would never need to fear having empty stomachs because their dad went crazy.

It's upsetting to try to make sure your future kids are protected from a future self you may not yet know? To think that it's "in me" to treat my wife and kids the same way my dad did is a hugely humbling and unsettling emotion.

--

Anyways, I'm struck as well how different my mindset is from 4 years ago. 4 years ago, that was the person that I was. I spent a lot of personal energy uplifting other people and putting them first, so much so that I suffered myself. I felt like I had missed out on so much of life being a responsible and upstanding young man. Buckling down in my late teens to be responsible and make good choices.

I feel that I've grown 20 years in maturity in only 4 years. Covid also amplified this.

And the diminishing health of my wife's parents, especially her father has me looking in his rearview mirror and watching my wife take the same ride. Part of me is frustrated, another part is broken hearted. Another part is trying to keep myself safe in a form of self-care. And another part of me is getting to know... me.

It's taken a long time. 

20 years ago, I planted seeds to grow money... To grow a REAL money tree. It's now growing and bearing fruit!

4 years ago I was looking down the barrel of FIRE and what the waking up every morning would look like. Living off $30k-$40k/year. Surviving, but not thriving.  So I set in to stop living so frugally (Hence, the title of this thread, "FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression".)

It's been getting better. My first music festival was during Covid shutdowns and I got to see some amazing live performers. I've seen concerts before and enjoyed them, have regret about not attending those that were in my own backyard.

I traded in the responsible, affordable car and bought an M Class BMW. I like cars but they always seemed like unnecessary expenses. Well, 3 years into owning my car and I still love it! It has added joy to my life. A good friend of mine and I have been going to EDM music festival these past couple years. We're heading to EDC Orlando in November. Just the two of us and 500,000 other people. Should be fun!

I've seen so many musical artists in the past couple years that I no longer feel as though I missed out seeing them 20+ years ago. My wife and I got into a brawl at a concert (not our fault, but a fun story to tell!). I have fun, outrageous stories to tell now and more are happening.

Every weekend is filled with events now. We're actually needing to make choices and compromises over what we participate in!

That's not to say that I've grown irresponsible. When re-reading my initial post, my FIRE net worth back in 2019 was $1.4 million with $750k liquid. The plan was to semi-fire. But now it's $2.2 million and $1.2 million of it is liquid and that's with a shitty few years in the market.

So all in all, it's been a whirlwind. I'm not an elegant writer so it's hard to convey such broad and complex emotions into simple words. I appreciate the patience and kindness. It's easy to winnow in on specific words and tear them apart as we can do on the Internet.  It's really about the overall picture and motion.

[BicycleB]

I'm really struck by the difference in how you describe your wife in your first post compared to how you describe her in your update. I didn't read a lot in between, at least not today. I'm sure I did back when it was originally posted. Has your wife participated in any therapy with you?

I just had to re-read my original post.

No, my wife has never participated in therapy with me. This is a "me" problem as it exists. My wife can get therapy if she would like, but she hasn't hinted towards it at all, and that's with the many, many sessions I've had. She's just kindof wandering, blindly into her years. Not paying attention to her health or fitness. I was always the driver for it. If I don't push her, she won't exercise. And I can't do it anymore. Her father is the same way, only now he's broke, has health issues, diabetes and is a petulant child wanting others to take care of him. I see my wife being the same way in 20 years and I wonder if I'm emotionally isolating myself to allow me to control the upset on my own, rather than "all of a sudden" which is evident in my first post in this thread.

In another wonderfully timed thread, https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/please-help-me-help-my-parents/ @Sibley wrote "Bottom line - as long as they have food, medical care, and a good enough roof over their heads, it's ok to let them live the expected consequences of their choices."

Much has changed in 4 years since my original post which I've contributed here the best I could. I may end up re-reading it some day, but to be honest, it's quite troubling. It's very raw and emotional.

My daughters' best friend's parent's got divorced 6 months ago. Many of their friends parents are now divorced and it terrifies my one daughter.  She stresses out about it at night, mainly because, as she puts it, her life is so amazing and she's afraid of it breaking. She asked me a few months ago "Do you and mom love eachother?"

I told her:

"Sweetie, I can tell you that during the last 25 years, at times I've loved your mother more than anyone can love anyone on this planet. We're talking so much emotion and feeling of closeness it's not even something that can be put into words. We've also gone through difficult times which can cloud that emotion and life complicates things. Right now, we're going through a bit of a rough patch, but we're not giving up. If there's one thing we've proven in the last 25 years is that we don't hit a roadblock and give up. We work through it. And there's nothing that you and your sister can do because you guys are wonderful. Your mother and I need to work through our struggles."

And that satisfied her inquiring mind. As a parent, I try to make everything age appropriate, including difficult subjects. I don't just say "oh nevermind" or "you don't need to worry about any of that." Many of the kids today all think that relationships ending is toxic.  I'm trying to explain to my daughters that life is long and sometimes we're on a journey with someone else, and sometimes journey's grow apart.  There's no need for it to end in hatred and hostility. Embrace the wonderful memories you shared and don't become hateful. Perhaps easier to say than to do but if my parents had done that, I have no doubt it would have made a positive influence.

When I was a kid, my mom couldn't afford our mortgage without child support. She had worked for the family business my dad took over in the divorce. She supported him and the business. My dad would often arrive late with the child support cheque or write out my moms name wrong to make it difficult to deposit. That led to adding water to the apple juice cans or making dollars stretch in many other ways. And then it got worse. Much worse. Violence, bloody knuckles, fear, upset. My dad is now in his 70's, has battled through cancer and other significant ailments. He's much calmer now and a different person so that's good.

I've always been the money person in the relationship. I made sure years and years ago that my wife had enough control of her finances that if something went down and she needed to care for the kids, she could. She would never be in the position of fearing to not be able to pay the mortgage. My kids would never need to fear having empty stomachs because their dad went crazy.

It's upsetting to try to make sure your future kids are protected from a future self you may not yet know? To think that it's "in me" to treat my wife and kids the same way my dad did is a hugely humbling and unsettling emotion.

--

Anyways, I'm struck as well how different my mindset is from 4 years ago. 4 years ago, that was the person that I was. I spent a lot of personal energy uplifting other people and putting them first, so much so that I suffered myself. I felt like I had missed out on so much of life being a responsible and upstanding young man. Buckling down in my late teens to be responsible and make good choices.

I feel that I've grown 20 years in maturity in only 4 years. Covid also amplified this.

And the diminishing health of my wife's parents, especially her father has me looking in his rearview mirror and watching my wife take the same ride. Part of me is frustrated, another part is broken hearted. Another part is trying to keep myself safe in a form of self-care. And another part of me is getting to know... me.

It's taken a long time. 

20 years ago, I planted seeds to grow money... To grow a REAL money tree. It's now growing and bearing fruit!

4 years ago I was looking down the barrel of FIRE and what the waking up every morning would look like. Living off $30k-$40k/year. Surviving, but not thriving.  So I set in to stop living so frugally (Hence, the title of this thread, "FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression".)

It's been getting better. My first music festival was during Covid shutdowns and I got to see some amazing live performers. I've seen concerts before and enjoyed them, have regret about not attending those that were in my own backyard.

I traded in the responsible, affordable car and bought an M Class BMW. I like cars but they always seemed like unnecessary expenses. Well, 3 years into owning my car and I still love it! It has added joy to my life. A good friend of mine and I have been going to EDM music festival these past couple years. We're heading to EDC Orlando in November. Just the two of us and 500,000 other people. Should be fun!

I've seen so many musical artists in the past couple years that I no longer feel as though I missed out seeing them 20+ years ago. My wife and I got into a brawl at a concert (not our fault, but a fun story to tell!). I have fun, outrageous stories to tell now and more are happening.

Every weekend is filled with events now. We're actually needing to make choices and compromises over what we participate in!

That's not to say that I've grown irresponsible. When re-reading my initial post, my FIRE net worth back in 2019 was $1.4 million with $750k liquid. The plan was to semi-fire. But now it's $2.2 million and $1.2 million of it is liquid and that's with a shitty few years in the market.

So all in all, it's been a whirlwind. I'm not an elegant writer so it's hard to convey such broad and complex emotions into simple words. I appreciate the patience and kindness. It's easy to winnow in is specific words and tear them apart as we can do on the Internet.  It's really about the overall picture and motion.

Great overall picture, @kork

[kork]

So another 6 month has gone by.

I'm struggling.

My very good friend has experienced a number of setbacks recently.  In the past 3 months...

1. His wife of 20 years asked him for a divorce.
2. His 14 year old daughter was admitted to the hospital for suicide attempt (second time, this time a pill overdose).
3. His dad has been in and out of the hospital and is suffering from multiple health complications including Dementia and Alzheimers.
4. His mom passed away 2 weeks ago. He had to explain to his dad. His dad had no clue who she was which is heartbreaking.

And on top of that, there's all the other smaller setbacks of being in your 40's with teenage kids. Battery in vehicle dying in the parking lot, surprise bills, struggling grades, financial setbacks, etc.

I've been along side him through the entire journey. supporting with the upset, the tears and suffering. I've been his confidante and voice of reason as he struggles through.

However, my empathy leaves me vulnerable. I don't feel sympathy, it's empathy. I "feelz" the "feelz." And as such, I find myself in a weakened state.  A bit vulnerable as I seemingly take some of the pressure from my friend and provide much appreciated support.

--

My turn.

I look through the forums here and see those in their 30's and 40's who are single or married but without kids I smile. Kids are so hard, but not for reasons that can be written in a book or discussed rationally. While I would never "unwish" my kids, if I had a crystal ball and knew where the world was going 20 years ago, I would not have opted to have kids.

I'm trying so hard to hold on. To muscle down and get through high school. But I'm just getting hammered by so many societal dissapointments around me.

1. At my daughters' swim club, a 50 year old transgender who identifies as a "teenage girl" was competing against them a couple weeks ago. This individual was also in their change room as moms were shielding their 10 year old daughters from the fully intact male getting nekked and looking around. To top it off, this individual earns almost $200k a year as a University professor. Professor by day, identifies as a teenage girl by weekend. I've inquired with the swim club and they're ignoring me. I just have questions, not confrontational at all.

2. My daughters were at the mall the other night. My oldest daughter (16) told me that when they were at the mall, a manager who worked there was asking if they were there alone (They’re regular shoppers, it’s not just a weird thing to ask). They said they were just shopping for a bit tonight for Christmas and the woman proceeded to tell them to be careful.

She went on to tell them that the day before, three girls were nearly abducted by 5 men outside the mall entrance. They were escorted back into the mall by security and held until their parents and police arrived. This is 5 minutes from where we live.

3. My youngest daughter recently got a job. Good for her. I'm so proud. She's scheduled to work Christmas eve which disrupts Christmas with my sister in law and the family. She's scheduled to work Christmas day at 8am which disrupts our entire family Christmas morning that I hold somewhat close to my heart. She's working Boxing day.  I come from a pretty broken family. Lots of drama, violence, hatred that makes most people's broken families look a PG rated movie by comparison to my 18+ version. Christmas is a special time of the year. Only now, it's being decimated by work. She's 14.

4. Immigration. Where I live, we're getting the worst of the worst immigrants. I love multi-culturalism, but not the worst parts of it. Palestinians are taking over the malls and becoming violent and abusive, yelling threats with children crying in background. At the local College, 50% of the students are international. And not good international students. These are students who come here, disrespect neighbourhoods and families and look down their noses at women because of their culture.  See #2 above. The 5 men that attempted to abduct the teen girls were foreign.

5. Our insurance jumped by $1000 this year because of vehicle theft. Not our vehicle theft, but vehicle theft in Canada in general. Everything is getting stolen!

I'm not here looking for sympathy. I'm writing as I find it therapeutic.

I was watching home videos of Christmas 2001 with the family last night.  We looked so happy. My wife and I living in our basement apartment, opening Christmas presents. This is 4 months after 9/11. We felt protected, our expenses were low even though we had no money. $20 was a big deal. Life was an adventure. It was exciting. Nothing could stop us.

But we were happy. We had joy in our hearts, we smiled, we loved.

My daughters saw a version of me as a young man. A happy, joyful, curious and playful young man with a sparkle and undeniable energy. But now, I'm defeated. I feel like I'm at a constant state of being highly tense. The responsibilities of parenthood keep me chained and I feel like as my daughters get older, I'm only one misstep from saying or doing something that I can't take back.  I don't know what that is, but there's an inferno building underneath which is being influenced by things I cannot control. And I fake it daily. To those around me except for a very close few, I'm still that person. I'm faking it until I get back there.

I want out. I want to leave where we are but I don't know where to go.

And it's an inferno I recognize in my own father. Rewind to the 90's. It was fathers day, I was 14 years old. I had saved my money and was going to take him and my brother go-karting. That never happened. He was drunk and when my mom and boyfriend dropped me off at his place in the country, he came flying out of nowhere and blocked us in the driveway. He got out of his vehicle and walked into his building holding my mom and boyfriend hostage on the property. My 11 year old brother went into the building, got the keys and proceeded to try to move the truck.  I stood outside, scared. The next part is a blur, but I recall my dad storming out of the building, getting into his truck and screaming through the parking lot, just missing me. That was the last time I ever stayed with him and the last time I'd see him for quite some time.

So parenting casts a shadow on everything. I grapple with my own FOO struggles, societal changes and just a general dissatisfaction of a life I've created for myself that others have grown to rely on.

I sometimes get myself into trouble, trying to explain the emotions through such primitive methods like words on a screen.  If I were a better writer, perhaps I could convey my inner secrets better, but I'm not. People nitpick a particular word or the phrasing but fail to look at the overall picture.  This is overall picture dialogue.

I'm putting on weight. I yo-yo like crazy.  In the last 10 years I've been between 162 and 255lbs and have gone back and forth. Back in 2019, I was a beast. 162 lbs and in such good health. I was happy in general, but was fighting nostalgia creeping in. But I was in control.

I'm an emotional eater. I wake up, ready to take on the world but by the time noon hits, I'm looking for a little hit of "happy" which I can usually find in a piece of Pizza or something.

Anyways, that's my update.

[Sibley]

Yeah, you have a lot going on.

First, you need to back off from your friend a bit. He needs help, but you are not qualified, competent, or emotionally prepared to provide it. Recommend he seeks out a professional. Be his friend, but be his friend who can't provide the shoulder to cry on right now. But no drugs or alcohol - neither of you need the complication.

Second, Christmas. The solution is simple: Christmas is now the 26th. or the 29th. Whatever works with the schedule. If you're religious, Jesus was not born on 12/25. That date was picked because it worked. You have every justification to pick a different date this year, and every year. That doesn't diminish the importance of Christmas, it actually enhances the importance because its so important you reschedule it so you can all be together. The rest of it is emotional handwringing, which given your overall emotional state makes sense.

Third, safety issues. There is a predator at your daughter's swim club. Respond appropriately. I don't know what makes sense at the club or in your town, and I don't know the laws in your country, but no you don't ignore a 50 year old who is leering at children, regardless of their gender. There's increased theft and violence, so you don't leave things out, you park in the garage, you report incidents to the police, etc. You teach your children how to be aware and stay safe as best they're able. If you ultimately decide that the area as a whole is no longer where you want to live, you move.

Life has ups and downs, and you're in a down. Won't stay that way forever. But the only way out is through.

[JupiterGreen]

Wow this is a lot. @Sibley gave you some great feedback

Get some therapy for your CPTSD it will help because you are acting from your fight or flight lizard brain.

CPTSD is often the result of childhood trauma.

1. Friend's issues, you should remind yourself that you are not being attacked when your friend shares his issues. But you are also not able to set emotional boundaries so I think you need to limit your contact

2. Swim issue, as awful as it is, nobody is being attacked and there are also parents inside the locker room. Your child is safe. If the gym won't do anything come up with a strategy with the other parents. Perhaps parents would agree to have the girls use one side of the locker room and the parents could rotate standing guard inside the locker room. At the same time, look for other things you might be able to do. Like having all the parents agree to change gyms or boycott it. Getting the word out via media, talk to the public and the schools. I do not see this as a transphobic thing, it's asinine. I don't know a single trans person who would support what is going on at this gym. It really gives trans folks a bad reputation, the majority of whom are nothing like this a-hole.

3. Violence in the world/immigration, bring your attention back to your current safety and the safety of your kids. Your current home is safe (it is not your childhood home). You have the tools and you have equipped your children with the tools to make smart decisions. You cannot control everything in the world. Think about it like a natural disasters, be prepared but don't use your daily energy on worrying about it.

4. Worrying about being the worst parent in the world. You are not your father. You are not your mother. You are doing your best. Your kids are in the world they were a choice you made and now it is your job to honor them and not regret what cannot be changed. Continue doing your best parenting. As you know, humans speak more to one another in non-verbal than verbal. By internalizing this regret you are mentally/emotionally abandoning your children (as your father did to you). This may be what both your parents did to you, it's a cycle that you can break. It's going to be okay, they are going to be okay.

Try to bring your brain back to the moment at hand as much as you can and do some hard physical work/exercise.

[Glenstache]

Some things you can only white-knuckle your way through for so long. I strongly second Sibley's recommendation to get some professional help from a therapist, psychiatrist, etc. What you are feeling and experiencing can be mitigated. I can't tell how many times my therapist has broken down what felt overwhelming and incomprehensible into a, "when _____ happens, people who have experienced _______ often tend to feel like or have a reaction like ______. Here are some strategies for how to work through it." It's not an instant panacea, but holy fuck has a combination of therapy (once I found the right person) and medication been life changing for me.  It was a big hurdle for me to take the first step to get help, and things had to get pretty bad before I took that step, and with hindsight I only wish I had done it decades earlier.

[Kris]

Another vote here for therapy. OP, I really hope you realize you have to get help for all of this. You can’t let it keep building. It’s not healthy for you or your family.

[vand]

I've come to the conclusion that parenting is just very very long journey where you are just continually winging it.

If you are look at other happy parents and think they have it all sussed out, then you are just projecting onto them the sense of assuredness and security that you want for yourself - it doesn't exist, and we're all just winging it.

[kork]

I appreciate the thoughts and responses.

In the past 5 years, I've had approximately 75 individual therapy sessions (don't have health benefits for it so it really gets to the point where law of diminishing return kicks in when I can predict exactly how my therapist will help guide)...  I even developed an acronym of WWTS (what would therapist say) and I got pretty darn good!

My therapist was instrumental in helping me move through my depression. Cognitive distortions were the most interesting. I've also taken inner critic workshops, mindfulness workshops, have been diagnosed with a few unsettling mental illnesses that I've been medicated for. Not severe, but ever present and looming, doing pushups and jumping jacks in the corner, waiting for a moment of vulnerability. Depression, anxiety and a dash of type 2 bipolar disorder in there.

I've done a lot of hard work. But I also learned that time and patience was the best thing I could do.  I spent so much time trying to work through the issues with brute force and head on addressing, I failed to realize that sitting back and being patient with myself was the best. Constantly scratching at an itch doesn't let it heal.

But in coming out of depression, anxiety is there looming it's head.  Zoloft is horrible, Effexor is too toxic in my system, Wellbutrin is too passive.  I'm one of the only people on the planet who lost weight while on Seroquel (weight gain is a significant side effect)

So I'm navigating through all of this. But much like my friend, stuff is piling on. FWIW, I've suggested therapy for him but he's not ready yet.  I've explained that for me, a therapist won't tell you what's right or wrong, but rather, shine a light on something or find clarity in something that may be blurry. He knows how much it's helped me and is not opposed, but he's managing.

So I've got all the right pieces in my corner and all the right tools lined up that I'm not afraid to pull out.  But at times, I question their ability to help.

Maybe I need to take a lesson out of my own book. Time and patience.  Only, my patience is running out.

And....  I just got back from taking my daughter to get her learners permit.  She didn't pass again. This is 5 failures now. She's upset. She's been studying, but she struggles with word question and memorizing. She gets caught up in the verbiage of the questions. She knows the answers, she just doesn't translate them well onto multiple choice questions.

So I sit back, be a supportive dad and try to reassure her so she doesn't go back to the self-harm phase. So far so good though.

 

[Adventine]

Sorry that it's been so tough.

How has your daughter been studying for the test? Is she just reading the manual over and over? I've known some people use state-specific driver's exam apps to great success. The apps present multiple choice questions in a similar format as the actual exam.

[kork]

Sorry that it's been so tough.

How has your daughter been studying for the test? Is she just reading the manual over and over? I've known some people use state-specific driver's exam apps to great success. The apps present multiple choice questions in a similar format as the actual exam.

She's been using the exam apps with great success.  She continually scores over 90% each and every time.  But then, when she's in the room with 8 other people in front of a screen, she doesn't seem to understand fully what's being asked or is distracted or "something" that she's not able to pinpoint.  She may be feeling performance anxiety with the feeling simply that she's going to fail and it affects her confidence.

<Added:> She also has the handbook.

[Adventine]

Sorry that it's been so tough.

How has your daughter been studying for the test? Is she just reading the manual over and over? I've known some people use state-specific driver's exam apps to great success. The apps present multiple choice questions in a similar format as the actual exam.

She's been using the exam apps with great success.  She continually scores over 90% each and every time.  But then, when she's in the room with 8 other people in front of a screen, she doesn't seem to understand fully what's being asked or is distracted or "something" that she's not able to pinpoint.  She may be feeling performance anxiety with the feeling simply that she's going to fail and it affects her confidence.

<Added:> She also has the handbook.

It does sound like performance anxiety and/or sensory overload to me. When I moved to the US and had to relearn the US rules of the road, I did well studying by myself, but markedly worse when I was actually at the DMV for the computer exam and the road test. And I was already 30+ years old at the time!


Any chance she can take the test when there are fewer people at the DMV? Very early in the morning, for example? She may feel less self-conscious or over-stimulated with fewer people around.

[MaybeBabyMustache]

Sorry if this is covered elsewhere in the thread, but do you consume a lot of media? I find myself particularly affected by media (cable news, digital media, blogs, Reddit, what have you) at certain times. Stepping back & letting all of that go is tremendously helpful in removing negativity & anxiety in my life. If you are already on a low consumption diet, great.

For your daughter, both of my teens failed the permit test multiple times. I agree on the timing Adeventine suggested, and/or looking at a new app that is one of the "guaranteed" pass rates, as they tend to focus on making the questions easier to understand.

In terms of yourself, do you have a list of three positive things you can do for yourself to manage your anxiety? Do you put those things into practice most days? (Of course, this does not replace therapy, but since you said you are attending therapy, asking about things that are in your control.) What, if anything makes you happy, and are there ways to orchestrate your days to invest more time in those activities?

[kork]

Second, Christmas. The solution is simple: Christmas is now the 26th. or the 29th. Whatever works with the schedule. If you're religious, Jesus was not born on 12/25. That date was picked because it worked. You have every justification to pick a different date this year, and every year. That doesn't diminish the importance of Christmas, it actually enhances the importance because its so important you reschedule it so you can all be together. The rest of it is emotional handwringing, which given your overall emotional state makes sense.

The only three days my wife has off over the holidays is the 24th, 25th and 26th. All days my 14yo is now working. Additionally, because we have multiple families, everything is coordinated around schedules of ours, and others.

Christmas morning will continue as normal, but with one person less.

It's bound to happen as the kids get older, just didn't think it would be at 14.

[kork]

Sorry if this is covered elsewhere in the thread, but do you consume a lot of media? I find myself particularly affected by media (cable news, digital media, blogs, Reddit, what have you) at certain times. Stepping back & letting all of that go is tremendously helpful in removing negativity & anxiety in my life. If you are already on a low consumption diet, great.

For your daughter, both of my teens failed the permit test multiple times. I agree on the timing Adeventine suggested, and/or looking at a new app that is one of the "guaranteed" pass rates, as they tend to focus on making the questions easier to understand.

In terms of yourself, do you have a list of three positive things you can do for yourself to manage your anxiety? Do you put those things into practice most days? (Of course, this does not replace therapy, but since you said you are attending therapy, asking about things that are in your control.) What, if anything makes you happy, and are there ways to orchestrate your days to invest more time in those activities?

I don't consume much media. In fact, the way that I get my "what's going on in the world today" news is typically through a podcast which summarizes the daily events and puts a fun twist on things which is balanced left and right with two different hosts. Sometimes I watch the local 6pm news about what's going on in the area.

I stay off Facebook except for special interest groups, I'm not on Tiktok, Instagram or X (twitter).

Interesting comment about the anxiety. Circling back to the initial post title from 4 years ago... "FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression."

Now that I think of it, anxiety doesn't have much of a place anymore and this is largely due to settling into FI. The only real anxiety is now caused by any fear of the future and that my finances will be eroded by careless government spending, stupid people and legalized theft (taxes, social programs, etc) that raid the coffers of what I've worked so hard to save.  While others were buying new cars and having a good time getting into debt, I was saving pennies and investing wisely.

Well, the government has no issue handing out fistfuls of money to those who were reckless with their business, choose EI over working, etc.  This all erodes my savings. Inflation skyrocketing and investments not keeping up. Immigration causing housing costs to skyrocket, post secondary education for my kids is looking to be astronomical, but somewhat an indicator of future prosperity.

But the anxiety isn't big these days.  It's more the "pile on" effect of conscious and involved parenting and simply life in my 40's. It's largely my kids, career malaise (I work in high tech and the future is very obscure), and just life getting me down and feeling somewhat trapped.

Combined with several close deaths (friends, ex-girlfriend, a best friend, bully, family) it's just kind of a pile on. And I'm sure I'm not alone. Many people likely suffer through these things alone. They end up divorced or in a midlife crisis. Some become alcoholics or become violent (or all of those things like my dad). 

I'm talking about it and trying to understand it better.

I look at people who have nothing saved and gargantuan mortgages and wonder how they can manage to be okay? If that were me, my anxiety would be through the roof.

[jrhampt]

I totally hear you about the pile on effect in your 40s and the feeling of being trapped.  I really don't know how people do it with kids...it's bad enough dealing with everything else and dying parents.

I try to just tell myself that this is temporary and it sucks and everyone else deals with it too.  And hope that eventually it will get better.  It's hard, though. 

[Sibley]

Second, Christmas. The solution is simple: Christmas is now the 26th. or the 29th. Whatever works with the schedule. If you're religious, Jesus was not born on 12/25. That date was picked because it worked. You have every justification to pick a different date this year, and every year. That doesn't diminish the importance of Christmas, it actually enhances the importance because its so important you reschedule it so you can all be together. The rest of it is emotional handwringing, which given your overall emotional state makes sense.

The only three days my wife has off over the holidays is the 24th, 25th and 26th. All days my 14yo is now working. Additionally, because we have multiple families, everything is coordinated around schedules of ours, and others.

Christmas morning will continue as normal, but with one person less.

It's bound to happen as the kids get older, just didn't think it would be at 14.

Congrats, now Christmas is on January 15th! Or, do you want your 14 year old to not work on Christmas? What job is this anyway? Because frankly, a job that is going to schedule a child on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day is not a good job.

[iluvzbeach]

Second, Christmas. The solution is simple: Christmas is now the 26th. or the 29th. Whatever works with the schedule. If you're religious, Jesus was not born on 12/25. That date was picked because it worked. You have every justification to pick a different date this year, and every year. That doesn't diminish the importance of Christmas, it actually enhances the importance because its so important you reschedule it so you can all be together. The rest of it is emotional handwringing, which given your overall emotional state makes sense.

The only three days my wife has off over the holidays is the 24th, 25th and 26th. All days my 14yo is now working. Additionally, because we have multiple families, everything is coordinated around schedules of ours, and others.

Christmas morning will continue as normal, but with one person less.

It's bound to happen as the kids get older, just didn't think it would be at 14.

Congrats, now Christmas is on January 15th! Or, do you want your 14 year old to not work on Christmas? What job is this anyway? Because frankly, a job that is going to schedule a child on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day is not a good job.

I was going to comment on the job for the 14-year old as well. Just have her tell her employer that she can’t work one (or all) of the days because her parents want Christmas with her, or you have family holiday travel commitments, or whatever else you come up with.

I am not a mental health professional but so much of what you describe sounds like anxiety over lack of control. You mention just up thread that the anxiety is no longer an issue but that’s not how I read it. Perhaps it’s no longer anxiety at crisis levels but it sure reads as if it’s anxiety. Again, not a professional so take it for what it’s worth.

[partgypsy]

Kork, I am empathetic. But I would agree that it sounds like you have chronic PTSD, and free floating anxiety. You think it's about a,b, c. But if those things were gone it would be about d, e, f. Also, it's been awhile since I read your journal but you actually have quite a bit of warning signs that your marriage is not long for the world. Different schedules/burdens, different views on parenting, no shared interests scheduled time together. Not being able to emotionally comfort or rely on each other. I dk man. I don't think people who aren't happy together should stay together, but do u even know who your wife is anymore? Or are you assuming you know? Also, she may be exhausted. Physically/time wise, emotionally. Relationship. Unless you are ok with a divorce and all the ramifications w your former best friend and your two girls, might be time to have some honest conversations. And even if it IS over, please please be honest with her, and figure out a game plan to make this a soft landing for everyone. But honestly, I don't get the sense you respect her or even like her much as a person.
The other thing I wanted to say, is that psychotherapy can only go so far. Sometimes people's brain chemistry, from biology, trauma, environment or combination means, well pharmacologic treatment is needed. The extremes of emotion you describe. You are very resilient, have learned a ton of coping mechanisms, and are simply tough enough to not give up. But why put yourself through such pain? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.
.

[kork]

Kork, I am empathetic. But I would agree that it sounds like you have chronic PTSD, and free floating anxiety. You think it's about a,b, c. But if those things were gone it would be about d, e, f. Also, it's been awhile since I read your journal but you actually have quite a bit of warning signs that your marriage is not long for the world. Different schedules/burdens, different views on parenting, no shared interests scheduled time together. Not being able to emotionally comfort or rely on each other. I dk man. I don't think people who aren't happy together should stay together, but do u even know who your wife is anymore? Or are you assuming you know? Also, she may be exhausted. Physically/time wise, emotionally. Relationship. Unless you are ok with a divorce and all the ramifications w your former best friend and your two girls, might be time to have some honest conversations. And even if it IS over, please please be honest with her, and figure out a game plan to make this a soft landing for everyone. But honestly, I don't get the sense you respect her or even like her much as a person.
The other thing I wanted to say, is that psychotherapy can only go so far. Sometimes people's brain chemistry, from biology, trauma, environment or combination means, well pharmacologic treatment is needed. The extremes of emotion you describe. You are very resilient, have learned a ton of coping mechanisms, and are simply tough enough to not give up. But why put yourself through such pain? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.
.

It's tough to say. I would say that I've gone through a significant change in my own perspective of life and the world. And it's been very painful and my brain broke as a result. Most of my brain was simply not firing. It hurt. The emotional pain was unbearable. Wow... just wow.

Now, the depression is gone. Anxiety is in and out but I feel more like I'm hanging out here on the planet.

My therapist told me that 75% of people regret divorcing after 5 years. They think they're doing the right thing, but in the end, they regret it. That said, I could very well be one of the 25%. But I'm riding it out. I'm moving through it with hopes that this is all temporary and that I'll emerge once the dust clears a bit.

I'm not bitter or miserable to be around. I'm just fatigued with life but I'm pushing through.

But I feel like I've moved through life in a much different way than others.  I felt 40 when I was 20. Then I was 60 at 40. But now I feel like I'm 20 at 45. No illness, no physical pain, nothing slowing me down except for my own brain. My Quest for Fire had me socializing with people who were also saving for retirement. My business partners were often 15-20 years my senior and we got along fine.

I'm in an age dysmorphia. I feel out of place. I feel like I'm waiting for the adults to come into the room and fix things only to realize, it's me. I'm watching the world get stupid. Or maybe it's me?

Also, we do have these conversations.  We actually ask each other if it's worth continuing. We have honest dialogue about how we're struggling and where we can improve. It's not hurtful or vengeful. Nothing is bottled up. Not everything makes it onto these pages in this forum and for those who read from the beginning, not everything adds up to where it is now. But at the time, it's the best way I can describe what I'm going through and how I feel.

5 years ago, I never would have thought life would get... "this damn hard" for reasons I never expected.

[Poundwise]

Dear kork,

I just stumbled on your thread several years after it began. I only read the first and last page, but it sounds like you have been feeling lost and unsure. I may not be able to help you with your anxiety... it sounds like you've been through a lot especially during childhood which is a critical time, but you broke some bad family habits even if you were scarred in the process.

 But as somebody who has been married for longer than you, and who is older than you (probably you wouldn't guess it, my fountain of youth is the religious use of sunblock, never smoking or drinking, and good genes), may I suggest visiting MarriageBuilders? It's full of somewhat old fashioned but very practical instructions on preserving and bringing back happiness to a marriage. You and your wife both need to learn what your own top emotional needs are... what each other's top emotional needs are... and put in some time to fulfill them if you can. The process helped my marriage a lot, and maybe it will help you.

As for searching for a purpose, going to meetups for the sake of meeting up doesn't sound like the best use of time to me.  If there is one thing in life that I'm sure of, it's that we should work to reduce human suffering.  Join a volunteer group. Anything... animal shelter, soup kitchen, refugee resettlement, community cleanup, youth coaching. We need you!  The process of working together towards a common goal forges connection as a side benefit.

[Moonwaves]

But I feel like I've moved through life in a much different way than others.  I felt 40 when I was 20. Then I was 60 at 40. But now I feel like I'm 20 at 45.

I'm in an age dysmorphia. I feel out of place. I feel like I'm waiting for the adults to come into the room and fix things only to realize, it's me. I'm watching the world get stupid. Or maybe it's me?

Not just you. I'm the same (except my body is more like 60 or 70 and totally slowing me down). But as far as the age I feel mentally/emotionally, what you've said tracks pretty well (I just turned 49). And wanting the adults to turn up and fix things has actually been a bit of a topic of discussion in therapy for a while now.

Have no words of comfort to offer, I'm afraid. But I'm fairly certain we are not the only ones who feel like this.

[Metalcat]

But I feel like I've moved through life in a much different way than others.  I felt 40 when I was 20. Then I was 60 at 40. But now I feel like I'm 20 at 45.

I'm in an age dysmorphia. I feel out of place. I feel like I'm waiting for the adults to come into the room and fix things only to realize, it's me. I'm watching the world get stupid. Or maybe it's me?

Not just you. I'm the same (except my body is more like 60 or 70 and totally slowing me down). But as far as the age I feel mentally/emotionally, what you've said tracks pretty well (I just turned 49). And wanting the adults to turn up and fix things has actually been a bit of a topic of discussion in therapy for a while now.

Have no words of comfort to offer, I'm afraid. But I'm fairly certain we are not the only ones who feel like this.

I can relate to this, but I figured out in my 20s that the "real adults" are never going to show up.

I was just chatting with a suicidal 13 year old about this the other day. He was feeling like every adult around him was full of shit and just as fucked up and foolish deep down as all of his peers. I shrugged and I was like "yeah, pretty much, life is just perpetual middle school with higher stakes." He actually found this incredibly reassuring because he was feeling like he was surrounded by defective adults and he was particularly fucked because everyone he turned to for help was not acting like a "real" grown up. I was like "n'ah man, they're all pretty much like that, and it's totally normal to feel like the people and systems you depend on are fucked up, because they are."

[curious_george]

But I feel like I've moved through life in a much different way than others.  I felt 40 when I was 20. Then I was 60 at 40. But now I feel like I'm 20 at 45.

I'm in an age dysmorphia. I feel out of place. I feel like I'm waiting for the adults to come into the room and fix things only to realize, it's me. I'm watching the world get stupid. Or maybe it's me?

Not just you. I'm the same (except my body is more like 60 or 70 and totally slowing me down). But as far as the age I feel mentally/emotionally, what you've said tracks pretty well (I just turned 49). And wanting the adults to turn up and fix things has actually been a bit of a topic of discussion in therapy for a while now.

Have no words of comfort to offer, I'm afraid. But I'm fairly certain we are not the only ones who feel like this.

I can relate to this, but I figured out in my 20s that the "real adults" are never going to show up.

I was just chatting with a suicidal 13 year old about this the other day. He was feeling like every adult around him was full of shit and just as fucked up and foolish deep down as all of his peers. I shrugged and I was like "yeah, pretty much, life is just perpetual middle school with higher stakes." He actually found this incredibly reassuring because he was feeling like he was surrounded by defective adults and he was particularly fucked because everyone he turned to for help was not acting like a "real" grown up. I was like "n'ah man, they're all pretty much like that, and it's totally normal to feel like the people and systems you depend on are fucked up, because they are."

Yep.

This is why on some level I'm glad I was forced to radically rely on myself as a child. Depending and relying on other people always turned out to be a complete disaster.

I still remember as an 8 year old kid after my dad walked out and my mom would not mow the lawn due to her mental illness I was just like..well - fuck it - I will just mow the lawn myself then. And that's what I did. I was totally confused after being placed in foster care as to why they felt I needed a babysitter and why I was not permitted to mow the lawn again until I was a teenager, since I often did whatever I wanted as a kid and had no real supervision most of the time.

I have similarly felt strange about my age. When I was a teenager people teased me that I had the mindset of a grandpa, or that I was like a grandpa, or that I was an 'old soul'. Now that I am 37 and in a good place in my life I feel more like a child again, just doing what I want to do everyday, and people often say I am like a playful, carefree child.

One person recently actually assumed I was a spoiled rich kid, and his mouth nearly hit th floor when I told him about my life, lol. Never judge a book by its cover.

[wenchsenior]

But I feel like I've moved through life in a much different way than others.  I felt 40 when I was 20. Then I was 60 at 40. But now I feel like I'm 20 at 45.

I'm in an age dysmorphia. I feel out of place. I feel like I'm waiting for the adults to come into the room and fix things only to realize, it's me. I'm watching the world get stupid. Or maybe it's me?

Not just you. I'm the same (except my body is more like 60 or 70 and totally slowing me down). But as far as the age I feel mentally/emotionally, what you've said tracks pretty well (I just turned 49). And wanting the adults to turn up and fix things has actually been a bit of a topic of discussion in therapy for a while now.

Have no words of comfort to offer, I'm afraid. But I'm fairly certain we are not the only ones who feel like this.

Based on many convos with people of various ages older than me at various times in life, I'm certain this is a pretty common feeling.

Certainly it was for me... when I was a kid I couldn't relate to other kids, felt way older than my years.  In my teens and 20s I was mentally mature for my age in a lot of ways, but emotionally I felt completely baffled by how people seemed to handle certain basic life responsibilities that I found difficult...so that made me feel incredibly 'immature' all the way into my early 30s. In my late 30s I felt more or less in line emotionally with my age, but just for a few years.

In my late 30s and early 40s I started to feel absolutely ancient as I took on a bunch of financial responsibilities more common to people in their 50s and 60s plus dealt with an avalanche of health problems that no one in my peer group could relate to. It was an extremely bad decade, mental health wise; but the upside was I could suddenly relate to very old people in a way I never had before.

Now, in my mid 50s, as a result of that very challenging period and learning how to manage my mental health much differently, and how to cope with the daily demands of multiple health conditions, AND consistently living a healthier lifestyle than most people in my family or peer group... .I feel physically and mentally more like my 20s/college self (optimistic and enthused instead of the 'beaten down' feeling I had in my 40s).  I feel much  younger than my peers 'seem' in their concerns and presentation.

 In another 5 years I might be dealing with full time care of my aging mother or other really hard stuff; and I might be in a bad mental place again. Or not. Who knows?

I think people rarely feel the way society seems to 'expect' based on their age or life stage. Except for the cliched mid-life crisis. That does seem to be a pretty consistent experience for a lot of people as their mortality and the shortness of life starts to feel real.