Author Topic: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.  (Read 54506 times)

wenchsenior

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #200 on: February 09, 2022, 12:10:17 PM »

I certainly don't have the answer to depression as I have a lot of it, very often. I notice that it's worse when I do nothing productive, but it's hard to rationalize anything as productive when you're retired and some days I am just so tired, for no reason.
You're not tired for no reason, you're tired because depression can up the amount of energy required for even simple things like getting dressed by a significant amount. When a large part of your energy is going into literally just putting one foot in front of the other (even if the only place you make it to that day is the toilet), tiredness is not far behind. (Ask me how I know :-D)

@kork Hope you're doing ok.

Yup. It's been a number of years since I've had any serious depression, but boy do I remember that well.

Tyson

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #201 on: February 09, 2022, 12:50:13 PM »
An update since it's been about 16 months. The recent passing of Meat Loaf (the artist) has triggered me to post a follow-up here. More on that at the end of my post.

I am defeated. I want everyone else to leave... so that I can too. I have moments of joy and positivity...  But it's not common anymore.

In the last three years my outlook on life has flipped 180 degrees. It's been like trying to squeeze through the eye of an hour glass. It's been painful and hurtful.

Three and a half years ago I felt like a vibrant light. Happiness was high, I found joy in simple things, I was healthy and full of life and vigor. I was well on my way to financial independence and semi-retirement. I was having some challenges with nostalgia and longing for happiness that existed in the past, but I didn't think it was robbing me of today.

For the last 40 years, for the most part I've been a bright light that was in good company. A few bumps along the way, but overall pretty good. I was always kind, positive, optimistic and annoyingly upbeat. Ted Lasso(ish). I was super honest. While everyone else was downloading movies and music, I was out paying my hard earned money for the physical copies because it was the right thing to do. They have something I want. It's not my place to take it if I don't want to pay. I was the type of person who wouldn't push anyone down so that I would rise above. I mentored younger employees to strive to personal greatness.

My emotional highs have always been high. I now realize that my emotional "range" is greater than can be bearable. It's hard to understand and differentiate when you've lived with it all your life. When I'm happy, where most people would feel joy I feel it more intensely, for longer. It's amplified. It's like I'm producing more brain chemicals.  And the same is true on the sadness. Hence, the type 2 bipolar characteristics that my psychiatrist honed in on with me. I'm not full on bipolar, but I have the same range of highs and lows.

And my oldest daughter appears to struggle with the same issue of emotional intensity. But her coping skills are different. She feels such emotional pain that she cuts herself. Initially she would blame the cat for the cuts... Clever coverup... But they aren't all from the damn cat. You're welcome my sweet daughter for this genetic curse.

She cuts herself usually with her nails, sometimes with a razor blade (only once) to take the elusive, emotional pain she feels and allows her to find a target for it.  The trigger is often an argument she's having with her friends and she says something that triggers them. All the "triggers" with kids these days. Everyone has a trigger. Can't say this... Trigger!  Can't say that, Trigger! Can't tell your friends "I don't like my skinny arms" because the overweight kids say "you don't know what it's like to be fat!  You don't know how horrible it is..."  And then she cuts herself because she's not allowed to dislike her skinny arms and feels guilty for even bringing it up. Well, now she has scars all over her skinny arms.

She's getting help, but her ADHD is making it a challenge for her to retain information and coping skills.

I've been told I'm raising my daughters to be lionesses to take on the world, but I feel like I'm raising them to be taken out to the pasture for slaughter.

The pandemic hasn't helped. The initial emergency and unknowing of it kicked me out of the depression but after watching society around the world, governments, politics, celebrities, social media influencers, and many people I know who I consider friends, but who's true personalities are amplified through social media.

Hole-e-f*ck. Everyone is an asshole is an understatement. The segregation, the power, the greed, the vile nature of humans. It's filthy.

And now I feel like all those emo kids in high school knew something I didn't. Life is dark. Death is nature's gift for enduring life. The best you can hope for is to not suffer. Like Kenny Rogers said "The best you can hope for is to die in your sleep."

I remain positive and strong for my daughters. It's a mask I put on every day. I put 110% effort into it. But sometimes I feel like my very presence is what's spilling over to their reality, unknowingly. "Get over it Kork! Do it for your daughters! Your internal struggle is having a negative effect so just change it!"

But I'm being overwhelmed by the swamp of sadness. And so I feel like I need to leave and take the poison with me. But I will never leave my daughters.

I feel like the dad at the beginning of the movie Twister. Holding the shutter closed with the Tornado outside screaming "I gotta hold on!, I GOTTA HOLD ON!" - before the twister sucks him up and throws him away. Only... I'm still holding on.

I'm very involved in my daughters lives. My wife is not. It's not that she's a bad person, but her parents were absent. I guess it's all she knows and doesn't care enough or know better to change it. She's not mean or evil or bad. She just doesn't know how to be involved.  We've argued countless times about how I can take them to doctors appts and school stuff because "I work from home" whereas she's in an office.

I've pulled away from my wife and will not allow myself to be vulnerable with her. My trust in her has changed. I no longer see her as my other half. She's an independent person. I feel as though I've been mourning the death of our relationship and watching her let it happen. And now I'm angry that she did.

I now feel like if we were once "soulmates" we no longer are. Our story is not one of overcoming obstacles and flourishing. It's about trauma and pain and suffering emotions but elusive and unable to pinpoint the source of issue. The last couple years it's felt like mourning the death of what once was. like a vicious ripping of two souls. But not just an equal splitting. More like a 80/20 split where I felt like after the turmoil I've been left with 20% of my soul and the other 80% is left wandering, aimlessly, frightened and lost. Or it could be that it's not lost at all, but that it exists with my wife and she won't give it back. Not because she's holding onto it, but because it's attached to her. But it's no longer part of me. I gave her something that I treasured and now she has it and I can't get it back. It's difficult for words to describe this, but I'm trying. My wife doesn't feel this way. For her, the lack of intimacy, of closeness, of trust is just something she's letting pass through her. Either she's checked out, or she was never checked in.

And I choose not to talk about this with her now. The vulnerability, the rawness, the pain and hurt. I need to keep what little soul I have left and protect it. I'm afraid of losing more and so rather than ruminating about the same thing, I'm concerned that one more "expressed hurt" will somehow have her take my soul a little bit further, that soul she can't give back, but that I want back.

And so in the meantime, I'm not doing anything right now except riding things out.  I've been told that making any moves right now is like trying to take off in the fog. Best to let the fog settle or clear.

So I remain grounded, trying to keep my composure firm, proud and balanced while everything around me is in fluctuating. I'm hopeful that I see more clearly with the passage of time and not destroying what I've worked for and sacrificed to build.

Moving back to our hometown to raise my kids was a bad decision. Initially it was comforting to be back where I grew up. Feelings of nostalgia were warm and comforting as I took my kids to the same park I once played at. Now, it's a source of pain.

My mom is awesome. She continues to be a beacon of hope and positivity.

---- BREAK FOR MY DAUGHTER WHO JUST GOT HOME ----

My daughter just got home from school and sat with me telling me about her day at school. I brought tampons and Midol to her today as she wasn't prepared. TMI, perhaps, but that's the kind of dad I am. As she was sitting with me, I inspected her arms and legs for new cuts. There aren't any. *** Deep sigh of relief *** But the scars on her forearms and back of her hands are heartbreaking.

I feel like a failure as a parent. Perhaps my involvement is hindering her progress. Perhaps I’m the only reason she’s still alive. Either way, feels like failure.

So anyways, just wanted to update, perhaps just for myself to re-read in the future when I can look back and say "good times!"

I was out skiing with my daughter at the same place I ski'd as a kid.  I would look over across the chair lift and couldn't help myself from seeing my best friend from childhood. We would ski 3X a week. The snowflakes falling and we talked about life from the innocent mind of a kid with freedom for the night.

He died 2 years ago of massive organ failure. But that brings me full circle to Meat Loaf.  It doesn't matter how long ago these events took place. They hold a place in my heart that evades time.

But it was long ago and it was far away
Oh God it seems so very far
And if life is just a highway - then the soul is just a car

And objects in the rear view mirror may appear closer than they are


"Objects In The Rear View Mirror May Appear Closer Than They Are" - Meat Loaf

I recognize a lot of this in myself, back when my marriage was falling apart and my life was being ripped apart in slow motion and there was literally nothing I could do to save it.  It was doubly bad because all of my life I've been smart, capable and flexible.  A great problem solver.  But I was unable to solve/fix the one thing that mattered the most - my marriage.  And I failed to keep together the one thing that was most important to me - my family. 

My wife left me so easily and almost like it was an afterthought, I wondered how long she's actually been 'checked out' from our relationship.  It must have happened along the way and either I did't notice, or she hid it from me.  Maybe a bit of both. 

Emotionally it was extra difficult because it wasn't just grief of the lost partner and the ripped apart family.  No, in addition to that it took my self-respect and my idea that I was able to deal with life effectively and just cut all that off at the knees.  The grief from the loss of spouse, split up family and loss of self was overwhelming.  And no one really seemed to care or understand the absolute soul-wrenching pain I was going through. 

That was 3 years ago and I'm a little better now.  Although I still weep on a weekly basis.  Which is an improvement over the daily basis I'd been on before.  On the positive side, I now actually have the space and ability to develop a real relationship with my daughter away from the toxic environment my ex had created before she left to be with that other guy. 

My daughter is high intelligence, high perception and high sensitivity.  She also went through a cutting phase.  Now that I think about it, she was doing it during the worst parts of the end of the marriage. After the divorce, she stopped.  Over the past couple of years, at times, I also felt like cutting 'myself' to try to deal with the emotional pain.  So I completely empathize with where she was coming from.

Here's what I realize now that I wish I'd known back then.  Part of the reason she started cutting herself was because I was not being honest with her.  I was trying to put on a brave face and hide how much pain I was in.  I thought I was protecting her but in reality my deception only fueled her agony.  Obviously I wouldn't just dump everything on her in an overwhelming deluge.  But I would be honest about the fact that I too am struggling and it's OK to struggle, and that it's possible to push through it and that we as human beings are actually pretty resilient. 
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 12:52:55 PM by Tyson »

partgypsy

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #202 on: February 09, 2022, 01:39:16 PM »
My younger daughter, is physically strong, emotionally sensitive and aware. Things were the worst with her, when, my ex was treating me badly but I was putting on a happy face and minimizing, ignoring bad behavior. I had some magical thinking that as long as I acted reasonable (though I had a lot of anxiety) he would actreasonable and everything would be ok. I also learned after the fact, during this time my super bright older daughter, was checked out, danger of flunking her classes. Anyways kids are not idiots. They see alot more than you think, and they are maybe wiser than most grownups because as long as basic needs are met a kid ten times out of ten, will choose family, closeness, acceptance, over material trappings. If you are happier living elsewhere, separating, etc, better to have 2 parents happy in their own skin than parents who are not happy together.

bthewalls

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #203 on: March 05, 2022, 03:23:51 PM »
Don’t forget, in our society our career becomes our identity at times....when the career goes....

I found dark night of the soul By Thomas moore a great read

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #204 on: August 09, 2022, 07:34:41 AM »
It’s been a while since I last posted, but figured it was time for an update.

If I was a better writer, I would have made this shorter and more concise. It's very difficult to put complex emotion into simple words. I feel like what I've written below only begins to capture the sentiment of how I feel, but I'm trying.

What I write may contradict what I’ve written in the past, or it might not. My changing point of view reflects where I am today and what may be my various cognitive distortions.

Most importantly, my daughter is no longer harming herself.  It’s been months since the last incident. After therapy, self-help, new coping strategies along with her awareness that self-harm is a poor coping technique (since all the teens are doing it today, she figured it was somewhat normal) along with just “better” day-to-day life with Covid pretty much behind us has led to a positive upswing.  Will it occur again? I don’t know, but her habits are transforming in positive areas.

Here’s my own meandering thoughts where my head is at today.

I still stand true to my initial thread title. FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression and I think I understand more now than ever.

I was on the path to LEAN Fire by the age of 40.  Never intended to quit work entirely, but always thought I could just get a part-time job.  If I had enough money to pay for the basics of life, then the part-time job would fund the extra stuff I wanted.

I’m really, really struggling with the state of the world. 5 years ago, I was a very positive person. I looked at the best in people and I argued with my evangelical Christian friend that people naturally were good in their heart.  I felt I was good in my heart. He argued that people were not, and needed the guidance of the bible to live a good life. This was such an odd concept to me. Surely, people know in their heart what’s the right course of action?

But now, I’m of the opposite opinion and now I’m caught between a rock and a hard place.  I’ve taught my daughters to be kind and considerate, to play fair and take the high road. Don’t benefit from others misfortune and just be a good person.  And they are. But after the past few years with politics, corruption, social media, Covid, the dealing with my own family challenges, I’m led to believe the the Universe has a different plan. It doesn’t care if you’re a good person or play by the rules.  The game is to survive. And so the spirit/soul is at constant conflict with survival.

This is new and it shines a light on my current state. I don’t trust anyone anymore. If I’m at the doctors office, I don’t trust the health care system as I suspect it's not run by those who are the best at health care, it's those who have manipulated their way to the top to serve their own selfish purposes. If I’m speaking with a professional, in my mind I’m thinking that their only goal is to get money from me. And so on and so on.

My entire belief system has found focus. My brain has found it necessary to find belief that this is all an illusion. A simulation that’s more complex than our brains can actively comprehend. That our reality comes from our mind and not simply that we’re existing in a particular place and time. Biocentrism if you will. And with that in mind, I now wonder why my brain is creating such a struggled reality for myself?

In positive news, my relationship with my children continues to get stronger. No topics are off the table and we have very open conversations about sex, drugs, suicide, catfishing, ghosting, boys, girls, racism, LGBTQ++, sexism, the world, politics, friends… you name it.  The conversations are natural and honest and not awkward at all. And they’re thoughtful, sincere, filled with laughter and honesty.

And I fear that society is going to take my wonderful, amazingly kind children and chew them up and spit them out. My oldest at 15 is propositioned daily to send nude pics online in exchange for crypto. This is the world she’s entering into. She just wants to chat with people, people just want pics of her nude. It’s relentless.

Anyways, despite the rest of the world being awful, I’m moving through teenage daughter teen years with grace, even with the setbacks.

My youngest daughter was talking about regrets the other day. I told her that it doesn’t make sense to have regrets because then we wouldn’t be where we are.  But I also told her that while I don’t have regrets, I’m curious about particular versions of myself in another multiverse where certain things didn’t happen.

1. What if my parents remained together? Would I have more confidence and self-esteem?
2. What if I didn’t take myself so seriously and partied more? Would I have had more fun and have fun stories to tell or would I be dead like my best friend?
3. What if I didn’t marry their mother? Would I have had a family?

And so these conversations are age appropriate. I want my kids to know I’m not bullshitting them and even though I tell them not to have regrets, I can’t help but feel as though I’m living a pretty upsetting version of my own timeline.

And I watch their peer groups along with their parents. The parents who are aggressive and will push people down to get ahead have learned exactly that… How to push others down and get ahead. They’re learned how to lie, cheat and steal and yet continue to believe they’re the victims. Teaching their kids “take what you want however you can!” If you fail, here’s all the ways to manipulate the system, sleep well at night, and still be rich.

That feels wrong to me, but my observations are telling me it’s right for survival.

By contrast, my net worth is now over $2 million. That money has been accumulated over 20 years of saving. I didn’t build and sell a business. I didn’t buy a bunch of rentals and leverage with luck. I didn’t invest in Crypto in 2010. No, I saved a dollar at a time and didn’t buy nice cars, or luxury vacations or anything like that. I invested in high quality companies, was a responsible parent and followed my integrity and ethics. I didn’t screw anyone. Nobody.

I feel like I’m not even a human. Like my spirit is attached to the wrong species. I almost feel like my spirit belong in a race, on another planet that’s looking to better itself in the cosmos.  Not this bullshit experience we call “human.”

2 weeks ago my daughter was hanging out with friends. When she came back,  she was super happy.  She was overjoyed.  She said that “she felt like she belonged” which got me thinking… I’ve always felt like an outsider.  A week ago, I was at an EDM 3 day music festival with 40,000 other people. Almost everyone was 10+ years younger than me but I felt like I belonged. There was an overwhelming sense of belonging to the moment.  I’ve never felt that way before. It was just oddly a sense of spiritual belonging. But it was short lived. I got back home and immediately felt in the wrong place.

And a big part of my issue is that I have no tribe. I have friends,  but they’re all separate, in separate places.  And now after 43 years, I think… what’s wrong with me?  Why do I belong, nowhere?

So on my quest to FIRE, the journey has left me feeling exhausted. This world over the past couple years has whittled me away to a shadow of who I was. Perhaps it’s a transformative period and I’ll come out stronger on the other side, but right now, I feel like I’m the wrong person in the wrong place, in the wrong time. The only thing that feels right is my kids.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 08:06:05 AM by kork »

charis

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #205 on: August 09, 2022, 08:33:37 AM »
That's heavy stuff.  A question - would you feel any differently if you hadn't FIREd?  The world would still be the same miserable place that you describe discovering over the last 5 years.

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #206 on: August 09, 2022, 09:33:07 AM »
That's heavy stuff.  A question - would you feel any differently if you hadn't FIREd?  The world would still be the same miserable place that you describe discovering over the last 5 years.

I didn't actually FIRE...  I just got to the point where I could. I worked remotely for 10 years but spent a day or two in the office each week. It was decent and I could break up my days in and out of the office without the "Monday's." But then Covid hit and it was remote 100% of the time. That's when I really understood that I needed to be out and about.

But it's an interesting question. If I didn't FIRE would I feel differently? I'll answer from a different perspective.

If I hadn't saved all my pennies for the last 20 years to be able to FIRE, then I suspect that I would have had different experiences that would have had a different outcome. Perhaps those experiences would have led to a "richer" existence? More experiences and more stories to tell.

For example, if I had travelled rather than saving. If I had stayed living and working in a HCOL location rather than moving to a LCOL city to raise the family. There's plenty of decisions I made that sided on "it would be wiser to save the money than to spend it."

And now, here I am with no issues dropping $1k on VIP passes to a music festival. It's just a portion of my paycheck rather than drawing from the stache.

But because I have no tribe, I struggle finding people to enjoy these experiences with.  And because many in their 40's are still in their crunch years, they're getting older and are getting tired.  Me? I have a ton of energy. My job doesn't drain me.  My kids don't drain me. I have money and energy. But people my age all have their social groups, many from high school. It's hard to break in and say "hey, let's go to a music festival" but people my age are old now.

OTOH, it could also just be me. My boss when I was 13 and my first real boss in my career both said I have a unique light. I shine differently than others. Brighter. But that's been isolating.

I feel like I'm an outcast, I'm lonely, I'm unique and I have no tribe of friends. I have good friends, but no "group" to say "HEY!  Let's got to Mexico! Who's wants to go?"

FIRE at 40 gives plenty of time to do nothing and I'm not interesting is lawn bowling or golf with the Seniors.

And my parents violent, disruptive divorce all those years ago makes me want to keep roots for my kids.  So it's not in my blood to just say "Let's live in an RV and I'll homeschool you" even though so much of me just want's to leave...

It's too much of a risk right now. I'm holding on and I suspect the struggles are different than what most people go through...


Tyson

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #207 on: August 09, 2022, 09:38:01 AM »
Well, your $2m in savings is proof that doing the right things, being honest, being consistent - those things all pay off. 

Also, I'd recommend the 'low information diet' that MMM talks about occasionally.  Getting off social media entirely plus cutting out the news completely really helped me feel better about the world.   

In positive news, my relationship with my children continues to get stronger. No topics are off the table and we have very open conversations about sex, drugs, suicide, catfishing, ghosting, boys, girls, racism, LGBTQ++, sexism, the world, politics, friends… you name it.  The conversations are natural and honest and not awkward at all. And they’re thoughtful, sincere, filled with laughter and honesty.

I can promise you that this type of relationship is it's own reward.  This type of relationship with your children is both rare and precious. 

BicycleB

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #208 on: August 09, 2022, 10:37:25 AM »
@kork!!!!! So glad to hear from you!!!!

:)

ETA: Also, what @Tyson said:

In positive news, my relationship with my children continues to get stronger. No topics are off the table and we have very open conversations about sex, drugs, suicide, catfishing, ghosting, boys, girls, racism, LGBTQ++, sexism, the world, politics, friends… you name it.  The conversations are natural and honest and not awkward at all. And they’re thoughtful, sincere, filled with laughter and honesty.

I can promise you that this type of relationship is it's own reward.  This type of relationship with your children is both rare and precious. 

^There are certainly thousands of children who wish for a relationship with their father that's exactly like what you're giving your kids. That's a rare and shining light in itself. Whatever your feelings may be on a given day, huge appreciation from me on such a difficult and meaningful accomplishment.

PS. On some of your specific thoughts, I am struck by your sweeping pivot from positive view of all others to negative view of all others.  Specifically:

a. A sweeping view that everyone thinks alike is kind of unrealistic. Maybe considering a more nuanced view that some people act from a happy basis of trying to deal fairly, and some are sincerely trying to cheat others, would be healthier in the sense that it's closer to reality?

b. Re cheating others, the tug of war between good behavior and bad pervades every generation, with each group having a wide range of examples. I strongly suspect that today, a lot of people would like to live from a positive viewpoint and are pushing themselves or their kids to be callous only because they think they have to. That last situation isn't nature, it's nice ordinary middle of the road humans who could go either way, but who are being disappointed by a culture that's in a negative phase.

c. Personally, I think that the good eras are what happen after people consciously push for a better world, perhaps for a generation. We're living in a worse era than our parents but it's within the normal variation of past societies that overcame the problems (with some effort!!) - including our own anscestors, who created the nicer world we grew up in. It may be our turn to struggle, and the payoff may be only a better society later, not a better society now. But we can make the effort, and should be aware that success is possible in such a quest even if it looks unlikely at the time. Do not lose hope - history is full of examples of success that seemed unlikely at the time. We grew up in such a result and may ourselves succeed in making a better future.

d. Parents who give their kids a good upbringing within the current chaos are HUGE. Thank you for what you've been doing.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 10:52:28 AM by BicycleB »

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #209 on: August 09, 2022, 12:11:20 PM »
Hi @BicycleB - yep, it's been a minute!  I try to stay out of forums and social media for these very reasons.  But for the most part, members here are thoughtful and not as negative (Many seeking FIRE think differently so it's good company.)

My change of perception is almost like a subconscious survival mechanism kicking in. It's primitive.  For 10 years, I never understood why the people in the tv show "The Walking Dead" were so hateful towards each other and untrusting.  Now I completely understand. Those who are kind and generous get used first and die, not by the zombies, but by people.

I want to trust. I did for so long. I've managed to do my side hustle for 20 years without a single contract. I've always relied on my intuition and professional conduct to be fair and honest with a handshake. But now I wonder if I was just really good (or lucky) at not getting screwed?

And it's so conflicted because it feels like I've been dragged to the "dark side" kicking and screaming the entire way. Or maybe it's not the dark side, maybe it's just the real side of humanity? But certain situations have happened with my only brother (no longer speaking),  my step-siblings and other people close in my life over the last few years as well has cast a negative light. The pandemic has really shown true light of others, and unfortunately, it's affected relationships. And on top of that, so much family drama.  But that's what happens when parents re-marry each others ex-spouses!

I do shut off social media often, and rarely listen to the news. However, I struggle because the nature of my work in high-tech requires on me to stay informed. And my relationship with my daughters forces me to stay observant so that I can help them navigate.

I feel like the rescue dog that's been beaten down so much by hands, that I don't trust hands anymore...  I'm just reacting to that which I observe and am witness to.

I often wonder though if it's my daughters that are magnifying my challenges. Without teenage daughters, would I care about how others are behaving or would I look at it curiously as I always have? I know what it's like to be a teenage boy. It's tricky and challenging, but I was always the nervous kid who did his own thing. The teenage boys these days are just so sneaky and confident. Hiding behind their screens, propositioning girls and as the kids say "pulling them". There's no limit on these little shits and their fathers are like "that's ma boy!"  And the teenage girls are feeding into it. The pics posted online, the conversations, the behaviours...  Except now, instead of having a handful of them at the school, they now find strength in online numbers... millions of teenage girls all behaving the same way, reinforcing the negative behaviour.

And the parents just turn a blind eye (unknowingly for most) to all this activity. And then divorced moms who are now "17 again" and hanging out with their kids, WTF? Reminds me of my wife's dad who had sunshine girl calendar pics on the walls in his basement with his 5 teenage daughters for the teenage boyfriends. Maybe that's why I'm sensitive to it.  It's like the dad who's putting his daughters out as bait to attract guys to hang out and drink with.

Maybe I'm just out of touch, but my spirit and soul tells me it's wrong.

So for me, I still have friends whom I trust, long-standing friends. But with strangers, I feel their energy. I sense if they're trying to use me and there's no benefit of the doubt. I've concluded, through conversations with my mom, that it's a 70/30 split.  30% of people are well intentioned.  70% are trying to survive and are willing to do what they need to do. They're not naturally evil, they're just more human, and less spiritual.

But I'm talking about it because I'm hoping that I'm not right. I'm trying to claw myself out of this negative reality I've been dragged into. But it's hard when there's just so much negativity... everywhere. In conversation, in observation, in action...

So thank you Bicycle, your words help.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 12:22:58 PM by kork »

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #210 on: August 09, 2022, 12:36:39 PM »

So thank you Bicycle, your words help.

You're more than welcome!


My change of perception is almost like a subconscious survival mechanism kicking in. It's primitive.  For 10 years, I never understood why the people in the tv show "The Walking Dead" were so hateful towards each other and untrusting.  Now I completely understand. Those who are kind and generous get used first and die, not by the zombies, but by people.

I want to trust. I did for so long. I've managed to do my side hustle for 20 years without a single contract. I've always relied on my intuition and professional conduct to be fair and honest with a handshake. But now I wonder if I was just really good (or lucky) at not getting screwed?

And it's so conflicted because it feels like I've been dragged to the "dark side" kicking and screaming the entire way. Or maybe it's not the dark side, maybe it's just the real side of humanity? But certain situations have happened with my only brother (no longer speaking),  my step-siblings and other people close in my life over the last few years as well has cast a negative light. The pandemic has really shown true light of others, and unfortunately, it's affected relationships. And on top of that, so much family drama.  But that's what happens when parents re-marry each others ex-spouses!

I do shut off social media often, and rarely listen to the news. However, I struggle because the nature of my work in high-tech requires on me to stay informed. And my relationship with my daughters forces me to stay observant so that I can help them navigate.

I feel like the rescue dog that's been beaten down so much by hands, that I don't trust hands anymore...  I'm just reacting to that which I observe and am witness to.

I often wonder though if it's my daughters that are magnifying my challenges. Without teenage daughters, would I care about how others are behaving or would I look at it curiously as I always have? I know what it's like to be a teenage boy. It's tricky and challenging, but I was always the nervous kid who did his own thing. The teenage boys these days are just so sneaky and confident. Hiding behind their screens, propositioning girls. There's no limit on these little shits and their fathers are like "that's ma boy!"  And the teenage girls are feeding into it. The pics posted online, the conversations, the behaviours...  Except now, instead of having a handful of them at the school, they now find strength in online numbers... millions of teenage girls all behaving the same way, reinforcing the negative behaviour.

And the parents just turn a blind eye (unknowingly for most) to all this activity. And then divorced moms who are now "17 again" and hanging out with their kids, WTF? Reminds me of my wife's dad who had sunshine girl calendar pics on the walls in his basement with his 5 teenage daughters for the teenage boyfriends. Maybe that's why I'm sensitive to it.  It's like the dad who's putting his daughters out as bait to attract guys to hang out and drink with.

Maybe I'm just out of touch, but my spirit and soul tells me it's wrong.

So for me, I still have friends whom I trust, long-standing friends. But with strangers, I feel their energy. I sense if they're trying to use me and there's no benefit of the doubt. I've concluded, through conversations with my mom, that it's a 70/30 split.  30% of people are well intentioned.  70% are trying to survive and are willing to do what they need to do. They're not naturally evil, they're just more human, and less spiritual.

But I'm talking about it because I'm hoping that I'm not right. I'm trying to claw myself out of this negative reality I've been dragged into. But it's hard when there's just so much negativity... everywhere. In conversation, in observation, in action...


Holy smokes, that's a lot.

Your associates (family, mostly) - it reminds of something I forget: how uneven the distribution of experience is. Sometimes a person has decades of stability and trustworthy surroundings. In other cases, a dozen bad or weird things happen. Looking at the immediate surroundings, two individuals in different surroundings can have completely different experiences.

From my own experience, my family is amazingly trustworthy throughout. I was taught by dad that not all are trustworthy and you should be careful. I'm sensitive to indicators of not-trustworthiness, and usually rule out the non-trustworthy in favor of the highly trustworthy. So my personal circle is smallish but superbly well intentioned, extremely safe, etc.

Not so for even my friends' personal experiences. They're more mixed. My buddy's uncle ripped off buddy's Dad when Grandpa died, looting the inheritance and cheating buddy's Dad out of most of the share he deserved. Buddy's Sis sucks up attention and resources while Buddy tries to contribute to the fam; buddy's Dad is tired of Sis, buddy's Mom still falls for it. At the same time, half of Buddy's work during the past 15 years is from one longstanding handshake relationship. Mixed!

Your experience seems to include some unusual factors. The marrying ex-spouses thing, for example. In any case, it's possible that 70% of the people you deal with are ones you do need to be careful about, even if 70% of the population is trustworthy. I think it's well within the normal variance of life that both of these propositions can be true at once.

Best wishes for finding a good balance, or perhaps more precisely, a comfortable way to interact with the world safely while being yourself. It wouldn't surprise me if this low phase eventually passes.

I think I mentioned before that I went through a suicidal phase and emerged from it. One thing that got me out was a person who pointed out that things might get better even if I didn't make them better. That hadn't occurred to me. My hope here isn't to say you shouldn't try things, just that sometimes they may get better even if we don't see right now how that will happen. Anyway, sending warm thoughts in your direction.


Fru-Gal

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #211 on: August 09, 2022, 12:47:03 PM »
I remind myself of shared services like public transit which relies on all of us trusting each other. And when I think of that it can’t possibly be that more people are bad than good. It has to be the reverse, by a large margin. Remember that there is a vast economy based on pulling your attention towards the negative. And the outliers. This can be good, however: it can help you find your tribe when you are an unusual person.

You’re doing a great job raising your kids. Obviously if anybody is soliciting child nudes for payment that is a crime punishable by very severe consequences. It sounds like since you work in high-tech you might want to start implementing some privacy blockage or discussions around the severe and felonious consequences of sharing underage nudes lol.

With teenagers it’s always something. I have boys but trust me they will test you and you will see the worst of the world thrown at your teenagers with a wink and a smile. They just have to get through it. But it is the most important time for you to be there for them — and you are!

Also it seems like you really should go to more EDM festivals! Of course there’s always a letdown after something like that. So go do it again LOL!
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 12:51:26 PM by Fru-Gal »

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #212 on: August 09, 2022, 12:58:43 PM »

Your associates (family, mostly) - it reminds of something I forget: how uneven the distribution of experience is. Sometimes a person has decades of stability and trustworthy surroundings. In other cases, a dozen bad or weird things happen. Looking at the immediate surroundings, two individuals in different surroundings can have completely different experiences.

From my own experience, my family is amazingly trustworthy throughout. I was taught by dad that not all are trustworthy and you should be careful. I'm sensitive to indicators of not-trustworthiness, and usually rule out the non-trustworthy in favor of the highly trustworthy. So my personal circle is smallish but superbly well intentioned, extremely safe, etc.

Not so for even my friends' personal experiences. They're more mixed. My buddy's uncle ripped off buddy's Dad when Grandpa died, looting the inheritance and cheating buddy's Dad out of most of the share he deserved. Buddy's Sis sucks up attention and resources while Buddy tries to contribute to the fam; buddy's Dad is tired of Sis, buddy's Mom still falls for it. At the same time, half of Buddy's work during the past 15 years is from one longstanding handshake relationship. Mixed!

Your experience seems to include some unusual factors. The marrying ex-spouses thing, for example. In any case, it's possible that 70% of the people you deal with are ones you do need to be careful about, even if 70% of the population is trustworthy. I think it's well within the normal variance of life that both of these propositions can be true at once.

Best wishes for finding a good balance, or perhaps more precisely, a comfortable way to interact with the world safely while being yourself. It wouldn't surprise me if this low phase eventually passes.

I think I mentioned before that I went through a suicidal phase and emerged from it. One thing that got me out was a person who pointed out that things might get better even if I didn't make them better. That hadn't occurred to me. My hope here isn't to say you shouldn't try things, just that sometimes they may get better even if we don't see right now how that will happen. Anyway, sending warm thoughts in your direction.

That's interesting and you're right. Uneven distribution of experience. My family has baggage. Lot's of it and bad feelings that have lasted for decades. And then recently a situation occurred with my brother and I that led me to believe that unlike my wife, my friends and others I know, no matter how much effort is made, my brother and I will never be close. He has no interest outside of using people for what they can offer. My mom often takes his side because he has behavioural issues. My step-brother has divided our family and my step-sister is aggressive and angry and likes to take revenge, including against myself. Even my mom and step-father are in a miserable marriage and they live apart 6 months of the year.

This is all stuff that's happened in the last 5 years on top of life itself.  I'm not here to complain, but these relationships certainly don't help and so I've distanced myself from them, especially with my brother.  Doesn't mean I don't care, but for my own well being, I need to cut out the negative.

I'm no longer suicidal.  Never really was, but the medication was certainly messing with my brain. Everything was. Now that I've shut off, I'm finding strength in my "less vulnerable" relentless optimism. It's exhausting always looking at the bright side of things. Sometimes, things just suck. Now, more things suck than they used to it seems, in my own experience.

But I'm certainly open to being proven wrong! I'm looking for it!


Tyson

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #213 on: August 09, 2022, 01:13:14 PM »

Your associates (family, mostly) - it reminds of something I forget: how uneven the distribution of experience is. Sometimes a person has decades of stability and trustworthy surroundings. In other cases, a dozen bad or weird things happen. Looking at the immediate surroundings, two individuals in different surroundings can have completely different experiences.

From my own experience, my family is amazingly trustworthy throughout. I was taught by dad that not all are trustworthy and you should be careful. I'm sensitive to indicators of not-trustworthiness, and usually rule out the non-trustworthy in favor of the highly trustworthy. So my personal circle is smallish but superbly well intentioned, extremely safe, etc.

Not so for even my friends' personal experiences. They're more mixed. My buddy's uncle ripped off buddy's Dad when Grandpa died, looting the inheritance and cheating buddy's Dad out of most of the share he deserved. Buddy's Sis sucks up attention and resources while Buddy tries to contribute to the fam; buddy's Dad is tired of Sis, buddy's Mom still falls for it. At the same time, half of Buddy's work during the past 15 years is from one longstanding handshake relationship. Mixed!

Your experience seems to include some unusual factors. The marrying ex-spouses thing, for example. In any case, it's possible that 70% of the people you deal with are ones you do need to be careful about, even if 70% of the population is trustworthy. I think it's well within the normal variance of life that both of these propositions can be true at once.

Best wishes for finding a good balance, or perhaps more precisely, a comfortable way to interact with the world safely while being yourself. It wouldn't surprise me if this low phase eventually passes.

I think I mentioned before that I went through a suicidal phase and emerged from it. One thing that got me out was a person who pointed out that things might get better even if I didn't make them better. That hadn't occurred to me. My hope here isn't to say you shouldn't try things, just that sometimes they may get better even if we don't see right now how that will happen. Anyway, sending warm thoughts in your direction.

That's interesting and you're right. Uneven distribution of experience. My family has baggage. Lot's of it and bad feelings that have lasted for decades. And then recently a situation occurred with my brother and I that led me to believe that unlike my wife, my friends and others I know, no matter how much effort is made, my brother and I will never be close. He has no interest outside of using people for what they can offer. My mom often takes his side because he has behavioural issues. My step-brother has divided our family and my step-sister is aggressive and angry and likes to take revenge, including against myself. Even my mom and step-father are in a miserable marriage and they live apart 6 months of the year.

This is all stuff that's happened in the last 5 years on top of life itself.  I'm not here to complain, but these relationships certainly don't help and so I've distanced myself from them, especially with my brother.  Doesn't mean I don't care, but for my own well being, I need to cut out the negative.

I'm no longer suicidal.  Never really was, but the medication was certainly messing with my brain. Everything was. Now that I've shut off, I'm finding strength in my "less vulnerable" relentless optimism. It's exhausting always looking at the bright side of things. Sometimes, things just suck. Now, more things suck than they used to it seems, in my own experience.

But I'm certainly open to being proven wrong! I'm looking for it!

Sometimes we miss the forrest because we are too focused on the trees.  The world is a lot better now than it has been pretty much any time in history.  I like to look at these long-term charts for perspective:

https://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7272929/global-poverty-health-crime-literacy-good-news

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #214 on: August 09, 2022, 01:18:10 PM »
I remind myself of shared services like public transit which relies on all of us trusting each other. And when I think of that it can’t possibly be that more people are bad than good. It has to be the reverse, by a large margin. Remember that there is a vast economy based on pulling your attention towards the negative. And the outliers. This can be good, however: it can help you find your tribe when you are an unusual person.

You’re doing a great job raising your kids. Obviously if anybody is soliciting child nudes for payment that is a crime punishable by very severe consequences. It sounds like since you work in high-tech you might want to start implementing some privacy blockage or discussions around the severe and felonious consequences of sharing underage nudes lol.

With teenagers it’s always something. I have boys but trust me they will test you and you will see the worst of the world thrown at your teenagers with a wink and a smile. They just have to get through it. But it is the most important time for you to be there for them — and you are!

Also it seems like you really should go to more EDM festivals! Of course there’s always a letdown after something like that. So go do it again LOL!

The safeguards are already in place and my kids are safe. I'm not concerned about them actually getting into trouble. What I'm concerned about is the negative effects it's having on their spirits, especially my my eldest who's more emotionally vulnerable. Yesterday, there was a $600 offer. With the constant bombardment of selling pics for $$$, why go to work and pocket change money when Onlyfans is putting these girls (18+) on pedestals of female empowerment and earning millions per year? My only argument because I may be out of touch is the lesson I repeat to my girls. "You're the one who needs to wake up in the morning and look at yourself and be happy with who you are. The choices you make need to support that."

Now if only I could figure out how to do the same myself.  When I wake up in the morning and do the same, I don't like the person who's looking back at me.  And I don't know why.

And it's like the saying goes, "if it bleeds, it leads." I'm educating myself these days that it's a loud vocal minority that seems to have my headspace. Perhaps my perception is based on a small group, but a close group... I don't know. Oh yeah, and my doctor lost their medical license earlier this year due to ongoing investigations. So we're now without a family doctor. It's just been a continual bombardment testing me. Like I said, it feels surreal in this reality.

I have some friends who are police officers.  They're terrified for their kids having seen what they've seen.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 01:32:59 PM by kork »

Fru-Gal

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #215 on: August 09, 2022, 01:20:21 PM »
OK I think this is extremely strange. What platform is this on? Only Fans?

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #216 on: August 09, 2022, 01:20:57 PM »
Also it seems like you really should go to more EDM festivals! Of course there’s always a letdown after something like that. So go do it again LOL!

Yes, early bird tickets for next year have already been purchased and hotels are booked. I'm doubling down on fun stuff!

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #217 on: August 09, 2022, 01:26:22 PM »
OK I think this is extremely strange. What platform is this on? Only Fans?

Discord.  It's an online community that allows people to create their own "servers" and start discussions around topics. It's like a forum, but for all topics and discussions. And because there's lots of kids there, it's attracted pervert adults to prey on them.  My daughters settings are "keep me safe" which scans DM's and is supposed to keep things safe. There's 150,000,000 active monthly users and was valued at $15 billion dollars last year. It's not a small, niche online service.  It's massive.

But it's also common on Tiktok and other social platforms.

[added:] Once again, with two teenage daughters, I wonder if this knowledge and feeling of vulnerability and protection is magnifying my cynical perception.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2022, 01:31:08 PM by kork »

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #218 on: August 09, 2022, 01:35:09 PM »
Quote

Sometimes we miss the forrest because we are too focused on the trees.  The world is a lot better now than it has been pretty much any time in history.  I like to look at these long-term charts for perspective:

https://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7272929/global-poverty-health-crime-literacy-good-news

This is good, thank-you. Took a quick scan but I'll continue looking at it further.  I'd be curious if there's a post pandemic version of this? 4 years has changed a lot in my brain. When this was published I would have agreed!

E.T.

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #219 on: August 09, 2022, 01:43:27 PM »
I like to occasionally look at the Good News Network to balance out other news feeds I visit. I think we're definitely living in a better time now than our parents, but my opinion may be biased. As a minority female, I'd rather not live in the past. Things still need improvement for sure but they're way better for me than when my mom was a kid.

https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/category/news/

Fru-Gal

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #220 on: August 09, 2022, 01:57:46 PM »
Ah Discord! My teen is on there every night! I actually think it’s a wonderful thing because it reminds me of my teenage years when we were on the phone for hours except in his case he can be sitting out on the back porch talking to six or 10 of his friends at the same time. They talk for hours. I can hear them. I will ask him about this. Of course I know from raising teens that all the bad stuff (drugs, guns, bullying, sexual assault) can come through social media which is why you do have to be vigilant.

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #221 on: August 09, 2022, 02:09:11 PM »
Ah Discord! My teen is on there every night! I actually think it’s a wonderful thing because it reminds me of my teenage years when we were on the phone for hours except in his case he can be sitting out on the back porch talking to six or 10 of his friends at the same time. They talk for hours. I can hear them. I will ask him about this. Of course I know from raising teens that all the bad stuff (drugs, guns, bullying, sexual assault) can come through social media which is why you do have to be vigilant.

My daughter doesn't use it for voice communication at all.  It's all text.

Tyson

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #222 on: August 09, 2022, 03:19:47 PM »
Quote

Sometimes we miss the forrest because we are too focused on the trees.  The world is a lot better now than it has been pretty much any time in history.  I like to look at these long-term charts for perspective:

https://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7272929/global-poverty-health-crime-literacy-good-news

This is good, thank-you. Took a quick scan but I'll continue looking at it further.  I'd be curious if there's a post pandemic version of this? 4 years has changed a lot in my brain. When this was published I would have agreed!

You can check most of the original data at Our World In Data, a great site with a ton of info.  I like this more nuanced summary that they post here:

https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better

mistymoney

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #223 on: August 09, 2022, 03:46:28 PM »
@kork

wow - I have so many similar thoughts and experiences. I think one thing is that the constant struggle for survivial distracts us away from our essential existential dilemma. Fighting for survival is consuming. Once that struggle is over, survival - including ongoing food, shelter, and pleasant things like Tv, travel, books, wine, etc  - are no longer dependent on our continued out-sized efforts at employments other aspects of our psyches can bubble up into awareness.

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #224 on: August 10, 2022, 07:53:08 AM »
@kork

wow - I have so many similar thoughts and experiences. I think one thing is that the constant struggle for survivial distracts us away from our essential existential dilemma. Fighting for survival is consuming. Once that struggle is over, survival - including ongoing food, shelter, and pleasant things like Tv, travel, books, wine, etc  - are no longer dependent on our continued out-sized efforts at employments other aspects of our psyches can bubble up into awareness.

It's reassuring to know I'm not alone. I read a quote...

"Courage is knowing it might hurt, and doing it anyway... Stupidity is the same, and that's why life is hard."

I'm hoping that one day I can look back and think, well, I invested my time and energy in the right place...  But as it sits now, it's all a big mess of stuff.


kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #225 on: August 10, 2022, 08:22:45 AM »
Another thought I had for those reading who are currently aiming for FIRE.

For the longest time, I was frugal. I still am in many ways - it's a hard habit to break. I have an excel file set up that predicts my net worth and SWR based on working for 1 more year, 5 years, etc.  It also calculates 4% annual return, expected return, etc. It's all based on "what do I have in investments today and predicting the future."

Suffice to say for the last 15-20 years or so, every penny that I spent took away from the nest egg which reduced my passive income with the SWR.  The goal was to eliminate as much as possible out of my life that was a distraction and unnecessary expense. I felt like I could be a Buddhist monk and live happily in my own thoughts without the distraction of anything. Electronics, vehicles, you name it.  Even the home I live in now was purchased to be affordable because the taxes are lower than they were before, even though the home is much larger and is a much higher value in the market. This was the forever home with decades planned out.

I look through the forum at threads of "what are you lusting over right now" and extreme frugality, etc and I think... I was there too.  But I was so frugal that I put all my energies into saving, saving, saving that I pretended like I didn't have interest in fun things. Fun things that actually cost money to participate in. Sure, there's free activities to do, but there's a lot of fun in things that cost money, and more joy can be found in those things you spend more money on.

For example, after having responsible cars for 25 years, I now have a BMW, M335 class. I did get it for a good price, but it's expensive on gas. Just had $3k of service done to it. But, the car brings me joy. It might be artificial joy in contrast to where I was at 5 years ago, but the way I see it now is that I've got enough in savings to generate a passive income when I retire. I succeeded as the ant in the story of the grasshopper and the ant.

But now, with my new found "I never want to retire" mentality the job pays for these things that I find joy in. This has helped kick me out of my depression.  The depression in a place I never want to be back in - and it's a result of being in my own thoughts, the one place I thought I could find solace!

So my advice to people here from my experience, be careful that FIRE isn't "that thing you're lusting over right now." You may be in for an unexpected awakening once you get there...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 08:36:11 AM by kork »

charis

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #226 on: August 10, 2022, 08:48:44 AM »
I'm lusting after the feeling of freedom that comes with not having to worry about depending on full time employment or progressing up the rungs of the ladder in the usual manner.  I think we've probably achieved that at this point, at 1m NW and almost 700k invested (with a couple of small pensions and SS on the horizon). 

We are naturally frugal but don't worry about/limit spending or care about S&P fluctuations anymore and have always made space for "fun things" (travel and home improvement are typical splurges).  I don't have any concrete plans to stop working altogether, neither does my husband, but I like knowing that if we were both laid off tomorrow, we'd be fine.  It sounds like your approach to FIRE through extreme frugality, was the problem, not the goal of FIRE itself.  I'm not into cars (someone will have to pry my 2009 toyota sedan from me when it eventually bites the dust), but with a 2m nest egg, a BMW sounds perfectly reasonable if it brings you joy. 

Tyson

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #227 on: August 10, 2022, 09:21:53 AM »
Seems like the bigger issue for you is that you were using FIRE as a means of saying to yourself "things are great".  Because you were building a better future.  But at the cost of making sacrifices in the present.  Which is pretty much the MMM creed. 

Now you are starting to question if it's safe to take your foot off the gas re: hardcore savings.  I'd say with 2m in the bank, a high paying job and no plans to retire, they yes, you can step off the gas a bit.  It's OK to try to find a balance between 'present you' desires and 'future you' nest egg. 

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #228 on: August 10, 2022, 09:42:40 AM »
I'm lusting after the feeling of freedom that comes with not having to worry about depending on full time employment or progressing up the rungs of the ladder in the usual manner.  I think we've probably achieved that at this point, at 1m NW and almost 700k invested (with a couple of small pensions and SS on the horizon). 

We are naturally frugal but don't worry about/limit spending or care about S&P fluctuations anymore and have always made space for "fun things" (travel and home improvement are typical splurges).  I don't have any concrete plans to stop working altogether, neither does my husband, but I like knowing that if we were both laid off tomorrow, we'd be fine.  It sounds like your approach to FIRE through extreme frugality, was the problem, not the goal of FIRE itself.  I'm not into cars (someone will have to pry my 2009 toyota sedan from me when it eventually bites the dust), but with a 2m nest egg, a BMW sounds perfectly reasonable if it brings you joy.

15-20 years ago it was all about the emergency fund. Then 10-15 years ago, it became every purchase was made with the thought of "how much will this set us back for FIRE" - Some things made the cut. There we some concerts, we built a home theatre when the kids were born (since we wouldn't be going out anymore - big expense...) But other things didn't...

If I got laid off tomorrow, I'd be fine financially, but not emotionally. What would I do with my time?  I used to know!  I'd volunteer, I'd focus on my hobbies, I might be a stand up paddle bboard instructor or start a new little side hustle. I'd do all this stuff.  But once I made it to that point... I found that the film reel I played back in my head was different IRL.

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #229 on: August 10, 2022, 09:45:32 AM »
Seems like the bigger issue for you is that you were using FIRE as a means of saying to yourself "things are great".  Because you were building a better future.  But at the cost of making sacrifices in the present.  Which is pretty much the MMM creed.

This is very accurate.  I was able to find strength i n the though of "I'm doing the responsible thing and one day it'll pay off."

Now you are starting to question if it's safe to take your foot off the gas re: hardcore savings.  I'd say with 2m in the bank, a high paying job and no plans to retire, they yes, you can step off the gas a bit.  It's OK to try to find a balance between 'present you' desires and 'future you' nest egg.

Oh, I've taken the foot off the gas.  That has happened. I'm spending my paycheck. Not being irresponsible - still adding to investments, but I'm not putting $100k into retirement funds in a single year again unless I have nothing else to spend my money on!  lol

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #230 on: August 10, 2022, 10:13:02 AM »
The two previous comments triggered my brain a bit.

Our mind plays funny tricks on us. On one hand, I feel like I didn't do anything, that my 20's and 30's were about saving, saving, saving.  And I'll admit, there was a lot of that. But I went to concerts, had nice things, bought a home, etc...  What it feels like I'm lacking is that whole 18-25 year old phase and I may be grouping that all in there.  And more specifically, the bonding that comes from college and University.

My bonding was with my bosses, not my co-workers. While they were out having fun, I was the odd one out.  Teachers pet if you will.

While my peers were going our for dinner and living for the day, I was attending David Bach seminars, planning for tomorrow.

And here we are. It "sounds right" in hindsight but it feels wrong. Trying to make course corrections.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 10:22:35 AM by kork »

charis

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #231 on: August 10, 2022, 10:42:19 AM »
I think approaching FIRE myopically and/or with a specific expectation about how it will "pay off" is where the trouble lies.  Because it likely won't ever live up to those expectations. Sacrificing today for a better tomorrow only works to a certain extent.  It's definitely not too late to make course corrections. 

I had a fine time in my 20s, but my 30s were mostly drown out in a haze of young kids, lack of sleep, and working.  Now that we are starting to come out from under that, things have started to feel less constricted and I don't miss the $$ we didn't spend during that time (that now makes our lives easier). 

One thing I really enjoy about FIRE is that it reinforces my natural instinct to consume less and pays me for it.  I've never had an interest in nice things for the sake of the things or the nice (cars, home, etc), but I look for value.  And the possibility that my children will learn this from us is also a motivating factor.

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #232 on: August 10, 2022, 11:13:23 AM »
Hmm. I have a lot of thoughts what you are going through, some which I identify with. Feeling like you don't have a tribe. I also feel that way. I have a nber of friends, but in disparate groups. I have come to terms with the fact I will always feel.like an outsider. But at the same time I feel comfortable in my own skin. I see myself as an observer to this world, but can appreciate at the same time. Man, congratulations on saving 2mill! You have done something only a small.% of people done at your age. I think everyone needs a certain level of struggle and striving. Also, being around people of lower fortunes puts things in perspective. If you can volunteer I bet you will different. As far as evil. We live in a peaceful time. Millions of people going about their day to day lives without incident and sometimes moments of grace, connection, small joy. . But you don't read about any of those moments in the news. I'm sorry to hear about yr daughter being propositioned. As she is a minor those people can be reported for soliciting a minor and she /you should do so.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2022, 11:14:58 AM by partgypsy »

moneytaichi

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #233 on: August 11, 2022, 12:22:05 AM »
You wrote your wide range of emotions and intricate inner life. They make me wonder if you are one of Highly Sensitive Person (HSP). I discovered myself as a HSP last year, which really help me make peace with my perception of being an "outsider" and my strong aversion on certain things that often don't bother others, e.g. bright light, unpleasant odors or loud noise. With this awareness, I am able to take care of myself much better, instead of my old approach of shouldering on.

Here is a quiz to assess if you are a HSP. 
https://hsperson.com/test/highly-sensitive-test/

In any case, self-compassion is the key. Your inner child deserves your unconditional love.

It also seems that you have built your identity around being a super-responsible and conscience person. Sometimes the shadow part just comes out and rebels. How about letting yourself loose and do some silly staff? It sort of lets out steam and gives you a different perspective.

Talking to a good therapist certainly can help. I have ongoing therapy sessions as my wellness plan. The only catch is to find a good therapist who is compatible to you. Don't be afraid to interview a bunch before picking one. Good luck!

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #234 on: August 12, 2022, 03:00:42 PM »
Hmm. I have a lot of thoughts what you are going through, some which I identify with. Feeling like you don't have a tribe. I also feel that way. I have a nber of friends, but in disparate groups. I have come to terms with the fact I will always feel.like an outsider. But at the same time I feel comfortable in my own skin. I see myself as an observer to this world, but can appreciate at the same time. Man, congratulations on saving 2mill! You have done something only a small.% of people done at your age. I think everyone needs a certain level of struggle and striving. Also, being around people of lower fortunes puts things in perspective. If you can volunteer I bet you will different. As far as evil. We live in a peaceful time. Millions of people going about their day to day lives without incident and sometimes moments of grace, connection, small joy. . But you don't read about any of those moments in the news. I'm sorry to hear about yr daughter being propositioned. As she is a minor those people can be reported for soliciting a minor and she /you should do so.

A couple thoughts on this.

When I strip it all down, what it feels like is that I haven't found my tribe. All the articles out there saying "find your tribe" and so forth. When I was younger, I seem to have focused on "I'll find my tribe once I've taken care of business" as opposed to "I'll find my tribe and then take care of business."

And here I am. No tribe. I'd love to have one. A physical place where friends just "feel right" to be with. I don't even know if that's what a tribe feels like? I don't know how to find one. I've never had one. It seems to be to be very difficult to break into a group, a tribe.

That said, I was out for dinner with a friend last night night. Deep, meaningful conversations.  I'm going out again on Monday with another friend for coffee. I have quite a few friends, but they're not a tribe.

So no shortage of one on one conversations with deeper connections. And I value those connections.

As for a change of perspective by seeing those less fortunate, I don't experience schadenfreude the same way others seem to. I see other people's misfortune and it makes me feel for them. There's a lot of  much empathy. I recall the 1993 Word Series when Joe Carter hit the winning run. There was such excitement and everyone was so overjoyed. But there was a moment the camera was showing the losing team.  While everyone else in the room (we had a bit of a World Series party) was cheering and excited, I felt empathy and sadness  for the players of the team that lost.

In fact, with the beauty of the Internet, here's the exact moment I remember.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-jDNAIdsrA

At the 1 minute mark, you see the disappointment and eye gloss.  I would have been a 15 year old at the time.

This sort of ties into the next comment from moneytaichi.

Quote
You wrote your wide range of emotions and intricate inner life. They make me wonder if you are one of Highly Sensitive Person (HSP). I discovered myself as a HSP last year, which really help me make peace with my perception of being an "outsider" and my strong aversion on certain things that often don't bother others, e.g. bright light, unpleasant odors or loud noise. With this awareness, I am able to take care of myself much better, instead of my old approach of shouldering on.

I scored a 16 which counts me in as a highly sensitive person. I've always known this though.  I've also taken inner-critic workshops regarding our inner child, etc. Not sure if it does anything or means anything, it perhaps just means that "I feels the feels."

« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 03:10:15 PM by kork »

RetiredAt63

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #235 on: August 12, 2022, 03:26:53 PM »
I'm not sure what testing out as a "sensitive person" means in terms our actual lives, so I am just throwing this out for your consideration.

Some of us just have small circles of close friends.  Some of us have close friends who are not close friends with each other, so no "tribe". Some of us have autism.  Some of us are massively introverted.  Some of us get so busy between work and family that there just is no time and energy left for socializing.

Sometimes I look at people who have these huge social circles/tribes and wonder how much is real and how much is a well-curated image on Facebook or other social media.

And after all, these are the MMM forums, where we question standard social wisdom/custom.  Don't compare yourself to others.  If you have a close family and a few close friends that you really trust, you are doing fine.  In my opinion, that is, YMMV.  But seriously, don't mess yourself up with false expectations.  Figure out what you want and what works for you.  Maybe you do want/need a "tribe".  And maybe you do and just won't ever have one.  Or maybe now is the time to start building one.

Often what I see is that tribes take a long time to develop, so they are often groups who were together in HS or University and have managed to stay together because their lives were in sync.  After all, if you marry early/late compared to your peers, or don't marry at all, or have your children early/late compared to your peers, you will likely fall out of sync with the group because your lives are just too different.  So tribes break and reform.

I am truly suspicious of TV shows like Friends and The Big Bang Theory.  When I was in grad school I sure didn't have the social time that the people on TBBT had.

All this is a rambling way to say, don't beat yourself up because you don't meet social expectations or what the media portray as the norm.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2022, 06:52:40 PM by RetiredAt63 »

Metalcat

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #236 on: August 12, 2022, 07:19:52 PM »
I want to make a comment as a relentless optimist who is obnoxiously positive.

I've had a *very* hard and *VERY* unfair life that has been primarily characterized by pain. My therapist calls my life "God's target practice" because it's actually kind of hilarious how many new and creative ways I get fucked.

So why an I such a happy and positive person? Because the world being a fair and reasonable place is not a prerequisite for being happy.

In fact, coming to grips with how unfair and ugly the world is is about the best way to have the most resilient happiness. I don't need people to be good for me to feel good. Nor do I need to fight or push away my negative feelings about the world.

For me, even negative intense feelings are satisfying and often cathartic. I have rather find memories of some of the most devastating experiences I've been through, not because I enjoy the bullshit, I do not, but because I gain incredibly insight from processing it.

Being challenged by life and the world is how we grow and evolve. If I had daughter's, I wouldn't wish anything on them that I've been through, but at the same time, I wouldn't wish them to *not* go through the perils of life, because that's life.

The opposite of a bad life is not an easy life. A good life means one where you have the supports and resources to process and cope with whatever is thrown at you.

Life is hard, it is heartbreaking, it is painful, and it is brutally, ridiculously unfair. That's normal.

The opposite of depression is not seeing the world through rose coloured glasses. It's seeing the world in all its shit-smeared stench and knowing that you have the inner strength and outer support to handle it.

The world is fucking magnificent AND it is horrible.

The key to happiness isn't to avoid the horrid parts, it's to see them, and look at them with compassionate curiosity, because that's all part of the richness of life. Life being really, really fucking hard is a key feature of it, not a flaw.

Lastly, it seems to me that a lot of people, especially Americans for some reason, really lack the skill of feeling and expressing healthy anger.

I'm not telling you to not be angry about the world. You should be, it's engaging. I'm telling you that being legitimately angry shouldn't negatively affect your happiness.

Negative emotions are not the antithesis of being happy, they are fundamentally integral to it.

The world being fucked isn't why you aren't happy.

wenchsenior

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #237 on: August 13, 2022, 11:56:58 AM »
I want to make a comment as a relentless optimist who is obnoxiously positive.

I've had a *very* hard and *VERY* unfair life that has been primarily characterized by pain. My therapist calls my life "God's target practice" because it's actually kind of hilarious how many new and creative ways I get fucked.

So why an I such a happy and positive person? Because the world being a fair and reasonable place is not a prerequisite for being happy.

In fact, coming to grips with how unfair and ugly the world is is about the best way to have the most resilient happiness. I don't need people to be good for me to feel good. Nor do I need to fight or push away my negative feelings about the world.

For me, even negative intense feelings are satisfying and often cathartic. I have rather find memories of some of the most devastating experiences I've been through, not because I enjoy the bullshit, I do not, but because I gain incredibly insight from processing it.

Being challenged by life and the world is how we grow and evolve. If I had daughter's, I wouldn't wish anything on them that I've been through, but at the same time, I wouldn't wish them to *not* go through the perils of life, because that's life.

The opposite of a bad life is not an easy life. A good life means one where you have the supports and resources to process and cope with whatever is thrown at you.

Life is hard, it is heartbreaking, it is painful, and it is brutally, ridiculously unfair. That's normal.

The opposite of depression is not seeing the world through rose coloured glasses. It's seeing the world in all its shit-smeared stench and knowing that you have the inner strength and outer support to handle it.

The world is fucking magnificent AND it is horrible.

The key to happiness isn't to avoid the horrid parts, it's to see them, and look at them with compassionate curiosity, because that's all part of the richness of life. Life being really, really fucking hard is a key feature of it, not a flaw.

Lastly, it seems to me that a lot of people, especially Americans for some reason, really lack the skill of feeling and expressing healthy anger.

I'm not telling you to not be angry about the world. You should be, it's engaging. I'm telling you that being legitimately angry shouldn't negatively affect your happiness.

Negative emotions are not the antithesis of being happy, they are fundamentally integral to it.

The world being fucked isn't why you aren't happy.

OMG I relate to so much of this post. Everything from being 'God's target practice' on down.

Except that I'm NOT a positive person, by general temperment.

I also don't have a 'tribe' (at least not the way kork seems to be thinking about it). According to how I interpret kork's ideas of a tribe I think I only experienced something like that for two short periods of my life...around junior high (close-knit group of friends with high compatability, diversity, and comfort level) and in college.  The rest of my life, I've always felt fairly much a loner in terms of both how I view the world, and feeling that I don't quite fit into social contexts that I'm in.  However, I do have a small set of individual close friends/relationships; these people are mostly not connected to each other in any way, though, so I think that would make them NOT a 'tribe'.

It took me MUCH longer than Malcat to learn that I didn't need a tribe or a feeling that I fit in or had purpose to be happy. (This delay might have been a difference in natural personality, or it might be that I'm a super slow learner). I mean, it helps to have a tribe and a purpose for sure, but mostly what changed me from a person with chronic mild anxiety/mild depression/dissatisfaction was actively restructuring my life around properly managing my mental health.

I truly didn't understand how much more control I had over my emotional responses to otherwise unchangeable negative outside influences (e.g., my health is an utter disaster, unfixable, chronic issues that I have to live with forever/most of the things I most value in the world are being destroyed systematically, etc.). Nothing in my life has objectively improved in the past 5 years in terms of those outside effects on me. They are either worse, or the same. It's my skills, tools, and priorities of managing my response to those things that has changed dramatically.  If you had told me 5 years ago how much happier I could be day to day with zero improvement in all the things I blamed for my unhappiness, I never would have believed it.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 11:58:55 AM by wenchsenior »

mistymoney

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #238 on: August 13, 2022, 07:41:45 PM »
I'm not sure what testing out as a "sensitive person" means in terms our actual lives, so I am just throwing this out for your consideration.

Some of us just have small circles of close friends.  Some of us have close friends who are not close friends with each other, so no "tribe". Some of us have autism.  Some of us are massively introverted.  Some of us get so busy between work and family that there just is no time and energy left for socializing.

Sometimes I look at people who have these huge social circles/tribes and wonder how much is real and how much is a well-curated image on Facebook or other social media.

And after all, these are the MMM forums, where we question standard social wisdom/custom.  Don't compare yourself to others.  If you have a close family and a few close friends that you really trust, you are doing fine.  In my opinion, that is, YMMV.  But seriously, don't mess yourself up with false expectations.  Figure out what you want and what works for you.  Maybe you do want/need a "tribe".  And maybe you do and just won't ever have one.  Or maybe now is the time to start building one.

Often what I see is that tribes take a long time to develop, so they are often groups who were together in HS or University and have managed to stay together because their lives were in sync.  After all, if you marry early/late compared to your peers, or don't marry at all, or have your children early/late compared to your peers, you will likely fall out of sync with the group because your lives are just too different.  So tribes break and reform.

I am truly suspicious of TV shows like Friends and The Big Bang Theory.  When I was in grad school I sure didn't have the social time that the people on TBBT had.

All this is a rambling way to say, don't beat yourself up because you don't meet social expectations or what the media portray as the norm.

Interesting thoughts and observations. I used to be extremely extroverted, now I'm truly isolated. If I got arrested, I honestly don't know who I'd call to come post bail or whatever it is you do to get out and then come back to court. Assuming it is a minor something or other!

Most of my friendly relationships are career related. Grad school, friends from various former employers, and for those that seemed more like friendships than networking, the pandemic kind of killed that. After you don't get together for 2 years....and then if some/all are WFH. There isn't the what to do for lunch and everyone from your last 3 companies works downtown at various office buildings and you just find a lunch spot between the work places.

A few friendly neighbors. Not many.

I'm on the cusp of empty nesting as a lifelong single mother and I'm staring into a void.

Metalcat

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #239 on: August 13, 2022, 09:13:21 PM »
Interesting thoughts and observations. I used to be extremely extroverted, now I'm truly isolated. If I got arrested, I honestly don't know who I'd call to come post bail or whatever it is you do to get out and then come back to court. Assuming it is a minor something or other!

Most of my friendly relationships are career related. Grad school, friends from various former employers, and for those that seemed more like friendships than networking, the pandemic kind of killed that. After you don't get together for 2 years....and then if some/all are WFH. There isn't the what to do for lunch and everyone from your last 3 companies works downtown at various office buildings and you just find a lunch spot between the work places.

A few friendly neighbors. Not many.

I'm on the cusp of empty nesting as a lifelong single mother and I'm staring into a void.

Society kind of cruelly programs people to lose the skills necessary for making friends. People feel enormous social pressures to *not* do the things required to connect with people.

It's really very, very unfortunate.

I've written many times about the learnable skill of making friends as an adult, so I won't go into the details at the moment, but thankfully it really is a learnable skill, and the best part is you don't need to be extroverted, or even particularly likeable. Most of my closest friends couldn't stand me when they first met me, lol, I have a ton of friends and almost none of them because I made any kind of good first impression.

Most people are walking around desperate for the kind of friends they had when they were younger. You just need to tap into that.

moneytaichi

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #240 on: August 13, 2022, 09:36:20 PM »
Not having a quality sleep can easily throw people into depression. As a HSP, I can't function if I have less than 8 hours of sleep, ideally 9. On occasion, I take 1 mg of melatonin. Most of OTC are 10 mg, too much for me.

My DH has consistent sleep issues. He swears that staying up 24 hours to break sleep cycles once a while can help him sleep better. This method claims to help depression too: https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/mind-read/an_unconventional_release_from_depression/

Metalcat

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #241 on: August 14, 2022, 06:19:43 AM »
Not having a quality sleep can easily throw people into depression. As a HSP, I can't function if I have less than 8 hours of sleep, ideally 9. On occasion, I take 1 mg of melatonin. Most of OTC are 10 mg, too much for me.

My DH has consistent sleep issues. He swears that staying up 24 hours to break sleep cycles once a while can help him sleep better. This method claims to help depression too: https://www.nature.com/scitable/blog/mind-read/an_unconventional_release_from_depression/

Yep, this is my go-to method when my neurological insomnia is persistent.

Doesn't do a damn thing for stress-based insomnia for me though.

mistymoney

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #242 on: August 14, 2022, 11:27:02 AM »
Interesting thoughts and observations. I used to be extremely extroverted, now I'm truly isolated. If I got arrested, I honestly don't know who I'd call to come post bail or whatever it is you do to get out and then come back to court. Assuming it is a minor something or other!

Most of my friendly relationships are career related. Grad school, friends from various former employers, and for those that seemed more like friendships than networking, the pandemic kind of killed that. After you don't get together for 2 years....and then if some/all are WFH. There isn't the what to do for lunch and everyone from your last 3 companies works downtown at various office buildings and you just find a lunch spot between the work places.

A few friendly neighbors. Not many.

I'm on the cusp of empty nesting as a lifelong single mother and I'm staring into a void.

Society kind of cruelly programs people to lose the skills necessary for making friends. People feel enormous social pressures to *not* do the things required to connect with people.

It's really very, very unfortunate.

I've written many times about the learnable skill of making friends as an adult, so I won't go into the details at the moment, but thankfully it really is a learnable skill, and the best part is you don't need to be extroverted, or even particularly likeable. Most of my closest friends couldn't stand me when they first met me, lol, I have a ton of friends and almost none of them because I made any kind of good first impression.

Most people are walking around desperate for the kind of friends they had when they were younger. You just need to tap into that.

I've been trying to make more connections, but it is difficult. I have some ideas on putting myself out there, had ideas for the summer, but that is nearly over so....maybe next year....

Metalcat

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #243 on: August 14, 2022, 02:01:09 PM »
Interesting thoughts and observations. I used to be extremely extroverted, now I'm truly isolated. If I got arrested, I honestly don't know who I'd call to come post bail or whatever it is you do to get out and then come back to court. Assuming it is a minor something or other!

Most of my friendly relationships are career related. Grad school, friends from various former employers, and for those that seemed more like friendships than networking, the pandemic kind of killed that. After you don't get together for 2 years....and then if some/all are WFH. There isn't the what to do for lunch and everyone from your last 3 companies works downtown at various office buildings and you just find a lunch spot between the work places.

A few friendly neighbors. Not many.

I'm on the cusp of empty nesting as a lifelong single mother and I'm staring into a void.

Society kind of cruelly programs people to lose the skills necessary for making friends. People feel enormous social pressures to *not* do the things required to connect with people.

It's really very, very unfortunate.

I've written many times about the learnable skill of making friends as an adult, so I won't go into the details at the moment, but thankfully it really is a learnable skill, and the best part is you don't need to be extroverted, or even particularly likeable. Most of my closest friends couldn't stand me when they first met me, lol, I have a ton of friends and almost none of them because I made any kind of good first impression.

Most people are walking around desperate for the kind of friends they had when they were younger. You just need to tap into that.

I've been trying to make more connections, but it is difficult. I have some ideas on putting myself out there, had ideas for the summer, but that is nearly over so....maybe next year....

As I said, there's actually a learnable skill to making friends. I've taught a lot of people how to do it.


As I said before, I've written about it here several times and don't have it in me today to write it all out in detail, but it's basically amounts to:

-assume the majority of people are lonely and wish they had much closer friends
-Be aware that most people find socializing stressful and don't understand how connections between people are actually made
-Know that leisure socializing is death to connection, and should not be the mainstay of a friendship, so dinners and drinks and shit are never going to go anywhere intimate
-Find ways to do difficult things with people
-Don't try to impress them
-Be vulnerable

The harder and more meaningful the shared challenge, the deeper the bond. You can't usually start with that level, although it's possible, especially if you're like me and like to take on really fucking hard shit for fun. But you can always be looking for opportunities to connect over challenges: classes, projects, team sports, volunteering, cooking together, construction projects, etc.

One of my go-to moves is that bulk cooking is a topic I always work into a conversation with someone I want to be friends with, because it's remarkably easy to convince someone to try bulk cooking together.

I have a friend who is a very busy mother and we built our entire friendship around grocery shopping and cooking together. Us managing her disruptive brood together in the grocery store is probably the thing that bonded us most.

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #244 on: August 14, 2022, 02:06:09 PM »
Omg @Malcat your advice is gold!!!

Metalcat

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #245 on: August 14, 2022, 02:33:53 PM »
Omg @Malcat your advice is gold!!!

Oh, I also forgot to mention: avoid asking questions. Learn to get to know people without always directly asking questions. People will naturally comment more openly when their participation on a topic feels organic. They'll go into their pre-programmed scripts that they use to seem cool and likeable if you ask them direct questions. Again, this is an intimacy killer.

This is well known in psychology, it's why therapists are trained to be judicious with asking questions, and why the best first dates always have the least amount of questions.

It's counter intuitive, as you would think that asking a lot of questions would show that you are listening and taking an interest, but it's actually a controlling behaviour and makes the other person feel observed, not listened to.

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #246 on: August 14, 2022, 07:33:58 PM »
I want to make a comment as a relentless optimist who is obnoxiously positive.

I've had a *very* hard and *VERY* unfair life that has been primarily characterized by pain. My therapist calls my life "God's target practice" because it's actually kind of hilarious how many new and creative ways I get fucked.

So why an I such a happy and positive person? Because the world being a fair and reasonable place is not a prerequisite for being happy.

In fact, coming to grips with how unfair and ugly the world is is about the best way to have the most resilient happiness. I don't need people to be good for me to feel good. Nor do I need to fight or push away my negative feelings about the world.

For me, even negative intense feelings are satisfying and often cathartic. I have rather find memories of some of the most devastating experiences I've been through, not because I enjoy the bullshit, I do not, but because I gain incredibly insight from processing it.

Being challenged by life and the world is how we grow and evolve. If I had daughter's, I wouldn't wish anything on them that I've been through, but at the same time, I wouldn't wish them to *not* go through the perils of life, because that's life.

The opposite of a bad life is not an easy life. A good life means one where you have the supports and resources to process and cope with whatever is thrown at you.

Life is hard, it is heartbreaking, it is painful, and it is brutally, ridiculously unfair. That's normal.

The opposite of depression is not seeing the world through rose coloured glasses. It's seeing the world in all its shit-smeared stench and knowing that you have the inner strength and outer support to handle it.

The world is fucking magnificent AND it is horrible.

The key to happiness isn't to avoid the horrid parts, it's to see them, and look at them with compassionate curiosity, because that's all part of the richness of life. Life being really, really fucking hard is a key feature of it, not a flaw.

Lastly, it seems to me that a lot of people, especially Americans for some reason, really lack the skill of feeling and expressing healthy anger.

I'm not telling you to not be angry about the world. You should be, it's engaging. I'm telling you that being legitimately angry shouldn't negatively affect your happiness.

Negative emotions are not the antithesis of being happy, they are fundamentally integral to it.

The world being fucked isn't why you aren't happy.

This made me think of how I now view stresses at work compared to how I did. It has improved at least somewhat. Granted, I am in a financially much better place than I was a decade ago when I stressed so much about work. However, I feel my better mental place is due even more to realizing that things can suck, but how I handle and respond to the suck is on me. For years I stayed at a place of work that started out great and ended up just blatantly cruel. I got more and more bitter believing I had no control over what happened to me or anything I could do in response.

I finally left with much prodding and realized that I was at least partly responsible for my misery because I didn't do anything but allow the crap to consume me. I had options all along but never used them. I could have responded by not putting up with it and probably got fired in the process, but who cares? I could have responded by leaving when people all around me whose opinions I valued left.

Working through it, though, I now will not allow myself to be put in that situation again. I will respond differently. I definitely don't regret going through it and know I grew from it. I also grew in an understanding that how I respond matters as much as what I'm responding to.

Now if only I could live this out more, but I'm working towards it.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 04:25:29 AM by Wolfpack Mustachian »

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #247 on: October 02, 2022, 07:54:05 AM »
So a little follow-up.

My daughter who's now in grade 10 and 15 years old (almost 16) was invited to a bush party with a couple friends. She and the friends were driven by this friends mom, but I learned afterwards that they had some Malibu rum shots at the house (provided by the mom) and then each took 2 coolers to the party. [EDIT] I just spoke to my daughter. They weren't shots. It was a mixed drink of rum and fruit juice they made at the house before they went to the party but they tried it from the bottle at home. From there, they had coolers and the rum/mixed drink. The mom did provide the alcohol.

I picked up my daughter at the bush party at 11pm. It wasn't a late one but she was already pretty tipsy. The two other friends were picked up an hour later.  They were both sick multiple times that night. My daughter was not. But we also made sure she drank plenty of water.

"Ahhhh teenage fun" most people would say.  "I remember my first bush party" you say.

Not in my world. I realized yesterday that my daughters age marks the exact age of when my dad nearly hit me with his truck in a drunken rage on Fathers day, 1993. It was 6 months before I'd see him again and even then, it was sporadic. I never stayed with him again, ever. And for a few years prior, the drunken fists denting the steel doors, the anger, the hostility, the temper...

This is also the same age that my best friend got involved in alcohol and drugs and we drifted apart.  Fast forward a few decades, he died 3 years ago in the hospital from organ failure due to substance abuse. He was 40.

Ohhh boo-hoo, get over it Kork.  You're a grown man. Shit happens...

Yep, it does. And I push hard every day to help my daughter(s) through her own challenges. The self-harm, the poor grades, the issues with friends and boys and peers. Through all of these things, our relationship remains very close.

Here's the struggle that I'm leaning into — whatever it is that I'm feeling to try to understand. That night after I picked up my daughter, I felt a myriad of emotions. They include anxiety, uneasiness, sadness and most interestingly, betrayal.

Betrayal that my daughter took to alcohol like a fish takes to water. I thought she'd go to the party and scope it out. I didn't think she'd go with a hundred kids in the bushes and get drunk. I didn't think she'd accept alcohol from the mom without questioning if it was okay or not. I thought she would have been a little more cautious than that. So in the end, there's a feeling of betrayal. From what? I have no clue. Maybe just life?

Backtracking to myself and my alcoholic father, I never drank as a kid or as a teen or even a young adult. I went through high school and college without ever taking a sip. While others were out with liquid courage getting into trouble, having fun with girls and being silly, I was driving them home safely. At the time, I thought that I was overcoming the behavioural issues my dad had succumbed to. I felt like I was conquering the constant peer pressures with grace. I was THE ONLY ONE who didn't drink at parties. I never had the courage to put my arms around a girl or say things out of character. I was shy, respectful and thought that girls were special. Each and every girl was a goddess to be treated with respect and kindness.

In College, I never went to the school pub or went to parties. I don't even think I was invited or even knew about them. Even if I did, I wouldn't really be interested. It was an excuse to be reckless. That wasn't me. Drinking leads to reckless behaviour.

And if I didn't have kids and such lucid memories, maybe I wouldn't be constantly trying to understand my daughter through myself at her age. But in order to better understand my daughter, I find myself continually digging up my own memories to help me navigate as a father.

But there's also part of me, a growing part, that looks back at myself and doesn't like me. I look back at myself with disappointment and frustration. I don't like who I was anymore. I used to look back at my youth and myself with fondness.  I used to be able to look back with pride and say "those responsible choices and hard work have led to the successes I've experienced as an adult." I used to feel so much pride for being so responsible. I used to be proud of who I was and who I've become. I'm not anymore.

I know all the logical stuff. You made the best decisions you knew how to make at the time, use your knowledge to help your daughter, count your blessings.  But that's not what this is about.

I no longer like the teenage version of me, and it's creeping up to the adult version now.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2022, 12:13:33 PM by kork »

Metalcat

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #248 on: October 02, 2022, 08:46:22 AM »

But there's also part of me, a growing part, that looks back at myself and doesn't like me. I look back at myself with disappointment and frustration. I don't like who I was anymore. I used to look back at my youth and myself with fondness.  I used to be able to look back with pride and say "those responsible choices and hard work have led to the successes I've experienced as an adult." I used to feel so much pride for being so responsible. I used to be proud of who I was and who I've become. I'm not anymore.

I know all the logical stuff. You made the best decisions you knew how to make at the time, use your knowledge to help your daughter, count your blessings.  But that's not what this is about.

I no longer like the teenage version of me, and it's creeping up to the adult version now.

Why do you think that is?

Your teenage self hasn't changed? What changed for you to go from being proud of your teenage self to not liking him?

charis

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #249 on: October 02, 2022, 08:49:29 AM »
I think you have every right to be disappointed and alarmed, but it reads like you are putting a lot on the 15 year old (maybe not literally but brunt of your reaction seem to be directed toward her behavior).  Including the incredible trauma of alcoholic father.  I'm going to assume that you prepped her for a scenario in which she is offered alcohol by her peers.  But I don't think one can ever really be prepared, as a young teen, for a friend's mother to give you shots that basically taste like alcoholic candy.  This is incredibly disturbing, criminal behavior by that parent.