Author Topic: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation  (Read 344277 times)

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2350 on: April 17, 2025, 02:05:57 AM »
All of the past 12 months of Bitcoin's performance occurs within one week: the week after the U.S. presidential election.  Strip that week away, and Bitcoin has been pretty much flat.

A lot has changed since Feb 20, and Bitcoin has dropped 14%.  But so has the S&P 500!  In the past, Bitcoin was significantly more volatile than the S&P 500.  I often compared it to 3x QQQ, which has lost over half its value in the same time period.

I wonder if Bitcoin going mainstream, through ETFs, has killed the price volatility.

41_swish

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2351 on: April 17, 2025, 09:00:06 AM »
If you bought bitcoin or some crypto years ago and it is now a substantial portion of your net worth then it probably worth selling some, but if your DCA is so low on it it's probably okay to ride it out, especially if your other investments are in a good spot.

lifeanon269

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2352 on: April 17, 2025, 12:21:36 PM »
All of the past 12 months of Bitcoin's performance occurs within one week: the week after the U.S. presidential election.  Strip that week away, and Bitcoin has been pretty much flat.

A lot has changed since Feb 20, and Bitcoin has dropped 14%.  But so has the S&P 500!  In the past, Bitcoin was significantly more volatile than the S&P 500.  I often compared it to 3x QQQ, which has lost over half its value in the same time period.

I wonder if Bitcoin going mainstream, through ETFs, has killed the price volatility.

This has been historically true for almost all of bitcoin's existence. In any given year, if you missed any of the top 10 best performing days for bitcoin, then you missed out on almost all of its gains for that year. That is why with bitcoin, time in the market beats timing the market. Fundstrat has a chart illustrating this somewhere on the internet.


MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2353 on: April 18, 2025, 04:34:09 AM »
All of the past 12 months of Bitcoin's performance occurs within one week: the week after the U.S. presidential election.  Strip that week away, and Bitcoin has been pretty much flat.

A lot has changed since Feb 20, and Bitcoin has dropped 14%.  But so has the S&P 500!  In the past, Bitcoin was significantly more volatile than the S&P 500.  I often compared it to 3x QQQ, which has lost over half its value in the same time period.

I wonder if Bitcoin going mainstream, through ETFs, has killed the price volatility.

This has been historically true for almost all of bitcoin's existence. In any given year, if you missed any of the top 10 best performing days for bitcoin, then you missed out on almost all of its gains for that year. That is why with bitcoin, time in the market beats timing the market. Fundstrat has a chart illustrating this somewhere on the internet.

Did those 10 days always occur in a row?  No.  And that is the different with what I'm claiming here: I'm saying Bitcoin's performance came from the week after one event: the U.S. presidential election.

I'm also saying that is a very odd thing to drive all of Bitcoin's performance.  Why hasn't anything else mattered?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2354 on: April 18, 2025, 04:36:55 AM »
If you bought bitcoin or some crypto years ago and it is now a substantial portion of your net worth then it probably worth selling some, but if your DCA is so low on it it's probably okay to ride it out, especially if your other investments are in a good spot.
Might be useful advice for some reading this thread.

Personally, I currently zero crypto.  I did participate in ETH staking for ETH2, but sold afterwards.

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2355 on: April 18, 2025, 08:43:44 AM »
Yes I always come to this thread when I need to learn how to maximise my bitcoin returns LMAO

41_swish

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2356 on: April 18, 2025, 05:33:51 PM »
It is probably too late in the game to get any crazy crypto returns unless you are pumping and dumping some meme coin. Investing in crypto is akin to investing in small cap growth stocks that are very unprofitable.

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2357 on: April 19, 2025, 03:32:57 AM »
It is probably too late in the game to get any crazy crypto returns unless you are pumping and dumping some meme coin. Investing in crypto is akin to investing in small cap growth stocks that are very unprofitable.

You are so right.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2358 on: April 19, 2025, 04:28:51 AM »
Yes I always come to this thread when I need to learn how to maximise my bitcoin returns LMAO

I come here to see when someone will claim to leave for 1-2 years, and show up within 4 months.  Twice.

Like talking to brick walls so I will check back in another year or two.

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2359 on: April 19, 2025, 04:31:48 AM »
Yes I always come to this thread when I need to learn how to maximise my bitcoin returns LMAO

I come here to see when someone will claim to leave for 1-2 years, and show up within 4 months.  Twice.

Like talking to brick walls so I will check back in another year or two.

Thrice now

41_swish

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2360 on: April 22, 2025, 10:56:35 AM »
I could maybe see adding crypto as a diversification measure, but having 50% of your NetWorth tied up in it is probably too volatile for a FIRE plan.

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2361 on: April 22, 2025, 11:34:49 AM »
S&P down 10%.  Bitcoin down 10%.  Gold up 26%.


Doesn't look like 'digital gold' is behaving at all like it's unlinked from the markets.

lifeanon269

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2362 on: April 22, 2025, 07:45:02 PM »
S&P down 10%.  Bitcoin down 10%.  Gold up 26%.


Doesn't look like 'digital gold' is behaving at all like it's unlinked from the markets.

S&P down 2.2%
Gold up 3.3%
Bitcoin up 11.66%

I too can pick random arbitrary time frames.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2363 on: April 23, 2025, 01:12:21 AM »
asset1 week1 monthYTD12 months
S&P 500-2.3%-8.2%-9.8%+4.3%
Bitcoin+11.0%+11.2%+0.3%+41.1%
Gold+4.7%+12.2%+26.8%%+44.7%

41_swish

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2364 on: April 23, 2025, 05:45:21 PM »
You can cherry pick any stat you want. Nothing wrong with that. The majority of people hold bitcoin for nothing more than speculation. Basically, seems like an MLM for crypto bros.

clarkfan1979

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2365 on: April 28, 2025, 09:20:26 AM »
You can view it any way you want, or you can run the numbers. Since about 2019 (when investors started paying attention) or so it's pretty highly correlated.

-Walt

I wouldn't say that it is because that's when investors started paying attention. I would more say that during that time frame from 2020 on, that's when there is a stark increase in money supply and thus just about any scarce asset when priced in USD their valuations went far higher. There is a very strong correlation between M2 money supply and the S&P500 and starting around 2019-2022 there is a notable uptick in the money supply which caused several years of heavy price inflation.

Prior this, bitcoin and the S&P500 had near zero correlation. Since then I still wouldn't consider bitcoin and the S&P500 as having high or strong correlation. They're certainly positively correlated, again, mainly because money printing causes all scarce assets to have higher valuations. But a Pearson correlation coefficient of .75 or higher is generally what is considered as having a strong correlation and bitcoin and the S&P500 when averaged out don't really quite hit that mark which shows that bitcoin still marches to the beat of its own drum at times. Over the last 90 days, bitcoin and the S&P500 have a Pearson coefficient of just 0.13, which is pretty close to having no correlation at all.

https://www.blockchaincenter.net/en/crypto-correlation-tool/?timeframe=90days&asset1=SP500&asset2=BTC

I think money printing greatly skews the pricing of scarce assets. It can mask market valuations and make people think that everything is going up when in reality you're barely beating the consumer price index. So there will always be some bit of correlation with scarce assets priced in USD simply because the value of the US dollar is going down in relation to all scarce assets.

I do think that over time however, bitcoin's correlation with the stock market and thus wider economy will become more and more correlated simply because investor trust in bitcoin will continue to grow and as the asset grows in maturity, the market size disparity between them decrease. This will also help drive bitcoin's volatility lower over time as well.



In the social sciences the general guideline is that r=.10 is small, r=.30 is medium and r=.50 is large. Pearson created the math on the correlation coefficient while documenting that children height is correlated with parents height at r=.50

lifeanon269

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2366 on: April 28, 2025, 12:04:40 PM »
In the social sciences the general guideline is that r=.10 is small, r=.30 is medium and r=.50 is large. Pearson created the math on the correlation coefficient while documenting that children height is correlated with parents height at r=.50

I mentioned specifically here a "strong" correlation. Something with a 0.5 Pearson coefficient is certainly positively correlated. But I was specifically talking about something as having a strong correlation.

The strength of correlation related to the Pearson coefficient is often broken down to:

r valuesStrength of Correlation
0.00-0.19Very Weak
0.20-0.39Weak
0.40-0.59Moderate
0.60-0.79Strong
0.80-1.00Very Strong

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2367 on: May 20, 2025, 05:17:14 PM »

JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon says the bank will let clients buy bitcoin


It’s very encouraging to watch hypocrisy, power and influence being forced to surrender to overwhelming truth.

Onwards and upwards . . .

Telecaster

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2368 on: May 20, 2025, 05:28:02 PM »
Isn't the fundamental reason Bitcoin was created is so you don't need a bank?   

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2369 on: May 20, 2025, 08:26:46 PM »
Isn't the fundamental reason Bitcoin was created is so you don't need a bank?

No, it was so you could buy drugs, hookers, and assassins.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2370 on: May 20, 2025, 08:44:40 PM »
Isn't the fundamental reason Bitcoin was created is so you don't need a bank?

What we have here is a bank that needs Bitcoin (or, at least, the profits that dealing in Bitcoin can generate).

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2371 on: May 23, 2025, 09:23:08 PM »
The U.S. real estate market is collapsing.

Median US home price:

2012 - 50,616 BTC
2013 - 19,127 BTC
2014 - 351 BTC
2015 - 901 BTC
2016 - 697 BTC
2017 - 323 BTC
2018 - 24 BTC
2019 - 84 BTC
2020 - 46 BTC
2021 - 10 BTC
2022 - 20 BTC
2023 - 14 BTC
2024 - 5 BTC
2025 - 3.9 BTC

41_swish

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2372 on: May 23, 2025, 11:11:21 PM »
BTC's market cap is 2.14 Trillion and the U.S. real estate market is 136.2 Trillion.

https://www.statista.com/outlook/fmo/real-estate/united-states

One of these things is for raising a family in and the other is for tech bros in miami

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2373 on: May 23, 2025, 11:35:34 PM »


Telecaster

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2375 on: May 25, 2025, 11:34:18 AM »
The U.S. real estate market is collapsing.

Median US home price:

2012 - 50,616 BTC
2013 - 19,127 BTC
2014 - 351 BTC
2015 - 901 BTC
2016 - 697 BTC
2017 - 323 BTC
2018 - 24 BTC
2019 - 84 BTC
2020 - 46 BTC
2021 - 10 BTC
2022 - 20 BTC
2023 - 14 BTC
2024 - 5 BTC
2025 - 3.9 BTC

This post should be stickied.  If back in 2021 you got a nice, 30-year mortgage in Bitcoin, your monthly payment would be about 330 BTC/month.   But just the next year your costs doubled, and by year three they were up by an order of magnitude.   Obviously, in very short order you would have been forced to default on your mortgage, losing both your house and your Bitcoin. 



MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2376 on: May 26, 2025, 05:21:11 AM »
The U.S. real estate market is collapsing.

Median US home price:

...

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS

https://pricedingold.com/charts/Homes

People buying homes with gold or Bitcoin is a rounding error compared to nearly 100% of people buying homes with dollars and mortgages priced in dollars.  Is this how far you need to reach to make Bitcoin relevant?

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2377 on: May 27, 2025, 03:34:33 AM »
The U.S. real estate market is collapsing.

Median US home price:

...

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS

https://pricedingold.com/charts/Homes

People buying homes with gold or Bitcoin is a rounding error compared to nearly 100% of people buying homes with dollars and mortgages priced in dollars.

I agree. But this isn't really about real estate, is it ?
Juan's post is really only showing the appreciating value of Bitcoin.
Your reply is really only showing the depreciating value of the USD.
I was playing along by suggesting a more stable unit-of-account, ie. gold, if we're really interested in the value of real estate.

Is this how far you need to reach to make Bitcoin relevant?

Not reaching at all. The fact remains that a few BTC (worth peanuts in 2012) will buy you a nice US house today. That's mightily relevant by any measure. Yes, you'd probably need to do it via a USD conversion but that's a minor inconvenience. And the times, they are a-changing . . .

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2378 on: May 27, 2025, 06:50:34 AM »
Not reaching at all. The fact remains that a few BTC (worth peanuts in 2012) will buy you a nice US house today. That's mightily relevant by any measure. Yes, you'd probably need to do it via a USD conversion but that's a minor inconvenience. And the times, they are a-changing . . .
I suspect that in the year 2045, people will still be looking back at the 2009-2018 era to justify adding a low% of crypto allocation. Back then, the oldsters will explain, you could wash trade the price higher and higher every day with nothing more than a dual-core box running 4GB of RAM.

Also, it would have been incredibly risky to do that USD conversion, considering how many crypto "exchanges" and "wallets" have disappeared with people's cryptocoins or USDs. The list of people who lost everything to suspicious "hacks" over the past 15 years is many, many times longer than the number of buy and hold crypto-millionaires.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2379 on: May 27, 2025, 02:23:51 PM »
Since Bitcoin has nothing to do with real estate, making comparisons to real estate is reaching.  It's like a click-bait article that isn't actually about what it claims.

From 2012 to now, Bitcoin went from an unknown hobby to having its own approved ETFs.  The gains in price are impressive, but people shouldn't expect a repeat of those early years.  Greyscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) gained +1557% back in 2017.  That isn't going to happen again, now that Bitcoin is mainstream.
https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/arcx/gbtc/performance

From March 15 2023 to March 15 2024, Bitcoin's price increased +184% while GBTC gained +366%.  Those 12 months capture the time before, during and after Bitcoin ETF approval.  Now that ETFs exist, that won't happen again - Bitcoin ETFs are already approved.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/history/?period1=1678838400&period2=1710460800
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GBTC/history/?period1=1678838400&period2=1710460800

What I see recently, 2023 to now, is Bitcoin surging on expectations of more buyers.  You can see this in the jumps as Trump won the election, kept talking about Bitcoin, and was inaugurated President.  Then it drops, since Trump doesn't follow up.  And when he announces a strategic reserve, he reveals that existing Bitcoin stockpiles, already seized by the FBI, will be used to fund the reserve.  Not new buying, which again was a disappointment to those who expected more buyers.

I'm not convinced Bitcoin is worth buying if the price is solely being driven by expectations of new buyers.  Maybe after the excitement - and price - dies down a bit, Bitcoin can be focused on Lightning Network solving some kinds of problems well enough to keep being adopted.  Maybe then Bitcoin can rise in price based on what it does for people, rather than how many people are buying it.  That's my current problem with Bitcoin, and why I own none right now.

lifeanon269

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2380 on: May 28, 2025, 08:51:30 AM »
This post should be stickied.  If back in 2021 you got a nice, 30-year mortgage in Bitcoin, your monthly payment would be about 330 BTC/month.   But just the next year your costs doubled, and by year three they were up by an order of magnitude.   Obviously, in very short order you would have been forced to default on your mortgage, losing both your house and your Bitcoin. 

I don't think anyone is crazy enough to underwrite a mortgage denominated in bitcoin terms so long as the economy is driven and fueled by fiat money. It just wouldn't make sense. That doesn't mean that in a bitcoin circular economy, mortgages wouldn't be possible or feasible to amortize a bitcoin denominated mortgage in a way that is beneficial for both the lender and borrower.


Since Bitcoin has nothing to do with real estate, making comparisons to real estate is reaching.  It's like a click-bait article that isn't actually about what it claims.

From 2012 to now, Bitcoin went from an unknown hobby to having its own approved ETFs.  The gains in price are impressive, but people shouldn't expect a repeat of those early years.  Greyscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) gained +1557% back in 2017.  That isn't going to happen again, now that Bitcoin is mainstream.
https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/arcx/gbtc/performance

From March 15 2023 to March 15 2024, Bitcoin's price increased +184% while GBTC gained +366%.  Those 12 months capture the time before, during and after Bitcoin ETF approval.  Now that ETFs exist, that won't happen again - Bitcoin ETFs are already approved.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/history/?period1=1678838400&period2=1710460800
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GBTC/history/?period1=1678838400&period2=1710460800

What I see recently, 2023 to now, is Bitcoin surging on expectations of more buyers.  You can see this in the jumps as Trump won the election, kept talking about Bitcoin, and was inaugurated President.  Then it drops, since Trump doesn't follow up.  And when he announces a strategic reserve, he reveals that existing Bitcoin stockpiles, already seized by the FBI, will be used to fund the reserve.  Not new buying, which again was a disappointment to those who expected more buyers.

I'm not convinced Bitcoin is worth buying if the price is solely being driven by expectations of new buyers.  Maybe after the excitement - and price - dies down a bit, Bitcoin can be focused on Lightning Network solving some kinds of problems well enough to keep being adopted.  Maybe then Bitcoin can rise in price based on what it does for people, rather than how many people are buying it.  That's my current problem with Bitcoin, and why I own none right now.

So long as bitcoin is priced in fiat terms, there will always be a tendency for it to be appreciable in price in the long term and thus a tendency for it to acquire additional demand because of its relative scarcity in comparison to fiat. Let's not forget that there is a non-negligible relationship in its price increase due to the monetary inflation of fiat currencies alone. We've never had an asset before with as inelastic supply as bitcoin has. So any new demand for it due to any increased desire for hedging against or escape from fiat monetary inflation can drive the price far higher than what small demand increases might typically suggest for other scarce assets in comparison.

Big news releases aside (spot ETFs, Strategic Bitcoin Reserve, etc), bitcoin adoption is still relatively nascent. UI developments are still being made. The lightning network is still growing rapidly. I think it is a bit premature to assume that bitcoin is far enough "mainstream" at this point that there won't be a growing number of people discovering its benefits for the first time.

I also think people outside of bitcoin or that don't regularly use it vastly underestimate how much it is used for regular economic transacting. For example, my meager lightning node which has about $25k in liquidity saw about 300 transactions and $20k in transaction volume being forwarded through it over the last month. I'm not an exchange and these aren't wash trades taking place or anything like that. With an average transaction size of about $66, these are mostly just regular small dollar purchases being made over the lightning network by actual users. And my node is not a high performance nor highly liquid node that sees a lot of forwarding demand through its few channels. Go on NOSTR social media and you'll begin to realize just how much people are choosing to use bitcoin on a regular basis as an option for regular economic transactions. I think it is difficult to gauge how much people are really using it because 1) it isn't all taking place in one geographic location, but is more ad-hoc in nature. So there isn't just one city or locale that is adopting it that can be easily measured or surveyed. 2) the increased privacy of using it means that there aren't clear metrics as to how much volume is taking place.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2381 on: June 04, 2025, 05:01:20 AM »
Since Bitcoin has nothing to do with real estate, making comparisons to real estate is reaching.  It's like a click-bait article that isn't actually about what it claims.

Are you seriously suggesting that it’s not legitimate to compare the value trends of different assets ?
Juan made his point in a provocative/humorous way but the message was clear – and true.

From 2012 to now, Bitcoin went from an unknown hobby to having its own approved ETFs.  The gains in price are impressive, but people shouldn't expect a repeat of those early years.  Greyscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) gained +1557% back in 2017.  That isn't going to happen again, now that Bitcoin is mainstream.
https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/arcx/gbtc/performance

From March 15 2023 to March 15 2024, Bitcoin's price increased +184% while GBTC gained +366%.  Those 12 months capture the time before, during and after Bitcoin ETF approval.  Now that ETFs exist, that won't happen again - Bitcoin ETFs are already approved.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/history/?period1=1678838400&period2=1710460800
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/GBTC/history/?period1=1678838400&period2=1710460800

What I see recently, 2023 to now, is Bitcoin surging on expectations of more buyers.  You can see this in the jumps as Trump won the election, kept talking about Bitcoin, and was inaugurated President.  Then it drops, since Trump doesn't follow up.  And when he announces a strategic reserve, he reveals that existing Bitcoin stockpiles, already seized by the FBI, will be used to fund the reserve.  Not new buying, which again was a disappointment to those who expected more buyers.

I disagree that Bitcoin is mainstream. Most people know zero about it. Here on this financial-based forum, this Topic is fairly quiet – mostly a dozen or so regular posters. The vast majority have shown little or no interest.
The sad reality is that most people have no understanding of the problems that Bitcoin seeks to fix and so see no need for, and have no motivation to seek, a solution. I think that’s changing as, for example, persistent inflation grinds them down, but it’s a very slow process – and they’re constantly misdirected into believing that inflation is caused by supermarket (and suppliers in general) greed.

Do you think there are no more significant events to come ? The US is actively seeking ways to buy SBR Bitcoin, further nation-state adoption of SBRs, significant further institutional adoption of Bitcoin treasuries, more retail interest now that familiar US Banks are offering Bitcoin services, more ETF activity as Bitcoin slowly becomes more mainstream, Lightning is developing fast in many directions, etc. etc. etc. Virtually all the signs are positive imo.

I'm not convinced Bitcoin is worth buying if the price is solely being driven by expectations of new buyers.  Maybe after the excitement - and price - dies down a bit, Bitcoin can be focused on Lightning Network solving some kinds of problems well enough to keep being adopted.  Maybe then Bitcoin can rise in price based on what it does for people, rather than how many people are buying it.  That's my current problem with Bitcoin, and why I own none right now.

As I see it, Bitcoin’s primary appeal will remain as a store-of-value / speculation on future prospects for some years yet. $Bitcoin will probably be 7 figures before means-of-exchange activity becomes anything like common practise. Everything is moving in the right direction and I’m very confident that we’ll get there. That's my current position with Bitcoin, and why I own some right now.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2382 on: June 04, 2025, 05:37:56 AM »
Maybe this belongs in one of the AI Topics, but . . .

I’ve been playing with some (free) AI tools and asked a few of them to:
express bitcoin volatility against usd volatility and sp500 volatility and gold volatility in a chart spanning 10 years

Most of them advised me how I could create such a chart, but claude.ai provided this directly.

The quality of the output is mightily impressive imo - my mind is somewhat blown. I haven’t dug into assessing it’s accuracy but the sources are quoted and I’ll share if anyone’s interested.

On the face of it, these are some interesting charts and 'insights' . . .

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2383 on: June 06, 2025, 05:08:38 AM »
lifeanon269 - The inflation argument doesn't make sense to me as a reason to buy Bitcoin.  If Bitcoin's return was equal to inflation, people would abandon it.  The risk is an -80% drop, versus the return of +2.3% (current CPI inflation).  Instead of Bitcoin, someone can buy Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS), backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government.

Except for Vanguard ("Buy orders are not currently accepted for this security ... cryptocurrency-related"), you can buy Bitcoin ETFs at any brokerage.  In this list, the top 3 ETFs hold $111 billion in Bitcoin.  For gold, the top 3 ETFs hold $162 billion in assets - I'd say they're in the same ballpark.
https://etfdb.com/themes/bitcoin-etfs/

Bitcoin has been mentioned by both of the past two Presidents, has its own futures exchange, and is mentioned on the standard IRS 1040 tax form.  That seems mainstream to me.  How could Bitcoin get more mainstream than this?

"Overall, 17% of U.S. adults say they have ever invested in, traded or used a cryptocurrency. This share is statistically unchanged since 2021."
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/10/24/majority-of-americans-arent-confident-in-the-safety-and-reliability-of-cryptocurrency/
« Last Edit: June 06, 2025, 05:11:05 AM by MustacheAndaHalf »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2384 on: June 06, 2025, 05:32:56 AM »
LateStarter - See above for my argument that Bitcoin is already mainstream, especially that 1 in 6 adults have owned it.

My understanding is that the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve (SBR) is being setup using Bitcoin that "was forfeited", not new purchases.  For example, when the FBI seizes Bitcoin used for illegal activity, from now on that Bitcoin will be transferred to the SBR rather than sold.

"The Strategic Bitcoin Reserve will be capitalized with bitcoin owned by the Department of Treasury that was forfeited as part of criminal or civil asset forfeiture proceedings.  Other agencies will evaluate their legal authority to transfer any bitcoin owned by those agencies to the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve."
https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/03/fact-sheet-president-donald-j-trump-establishes-the-strategic-bitcoin-reserve-and-u-s-digital-asset-stockpile/

Since late 2023 to now, I think only two things have driven up the price of Bitcoin: ETFs and Trump.  Trump's election, his creation of meme coins, his inauguration, and his announcement of the SBR.  Anticipation of Bitcoin ETFs pushed the price up, and again after approval, peaking at $73k BTC/USD on March 14 2024.  It stayed below that level until Trump won the election, hitting $75k on November 7 2024.  Am I missing other moves by Bitcoin, driven by something else?

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2385 on: June 06, 2025, 12:09:08 PM »
Most people know zero about it. Here on this financial-based forum, this Topic is fairly quiet – mostly a dozen or so regular posters. The vast majority have shown little or no interest.
The sad reality is that most people have no understanding of the problems that Bitcoin seeks to fix and so see no need for, and have no motivation to seek, a solution.

There is another component too.  The sales pitch isn't that good.   These discussions always come down to the idea the price will go up in the future.   But there is no coupon or dividend.  The price comes down to supply and demand.  This makes it very hard to assign a value.  So a tough sell from a strict investing standpoint. The counter argument goes that as more and more people will want to use at as money in the future, and that will drive demand.   But if the price is going up, then you won't want to use it as money.  The price going up is an argument against adoption.  So, I'll just put the investing thesis in the too hard pile.   

Bitcoin was created as a payment system, but it is a worse payment system for everything I want to pay for.   Maybe one day that will change, but right now I don't want it or need it for payments. So no interest in that regard. 

Then it comes to store of value.   As we know, the price can go up and it can go down too.   We saw about a 25% sell off this spring.   If you were saving up for a downpayment on house or your daughters wedding you would have been screwed.  The price went back up, but you can't reliably know the money will be there when you need it.    So hard pass on the store of value thing for me.

lifeanon269

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2386 on: June 06, 2025, 02:36:43 PM »
lifeanon269 - The inflation argument doesn't make sense to me as a reason to buy Bitcoin.  If Bitcoin's return was equal to inflation, people would abandon it.  The risk is an -80% drop, versus the return of +2.3% (current CPI inflation).  Instead of Bitcoin, someone can buy Treasury Inflation Protected Securities (TIPS), backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government.

Why would you buy something "backed by the full faith and credit of the U.S. government" if you're hedging against something perpetrated by the US government? I want to clarify, as I stated in my original post, I said hedging against monetary inflation, not CPI. Understanding monetary inflation means understanding what is driving that inflation within any given economy. If you're American, that means the US economy and the US government. Buying TIPS in this regard makes absolutely no sense. Buying a scarce asset because of monetary inflation doesn't mean doing it because you're afraid of a 2-3% loss of consumer good purchasing power every year (CPI/price inflation). A lot of the monetary inflation causes scarce assets and commodities to rise in price far faster than consumer goods due to their scarcity. What drives monetary inflation also has a lot of geopolitical implications in the world that would provide many valid reasons to want to own something more decentralized and independent like bitcoin. So yes, hedging monetary inflation with bitcoin is something that makes a lot of sense and is a major driver in its appreciation over the years as more people begin to understand this.

Saying the only things have driven up bitcoin's price over the years is Trump and ETFs is probably one of the most gross misrepresentations of the course bitcoin has taken over the last 16 years and really makes you lost objectionable credibility in the discussion at hand.

It also seems like you're trying to hold both positions that bitcoin is somehow both mainstream and not mainstream at the same time. You're claiming here that bitcoin is already mainstream and therefore because of that you don't see much price appreciation for it in the future. However, you also seem to hold the position that bitcoin is not mainstream (as seen in some of your past comments) and is not really used by anyone.

How could Bitcoin get more mainstream than this?

I hold a few perspectives on that aspect. First is that a vast majority of people in the world (not just the US) haven't used or owned bitcoin. So there is a lot of potential for bitcoin to spread with adoption to new people and regions and have it benefit the lives of these people. There is also the fact that a lot of people that have own bitcoin before, might have only held a small amount of it because of their lack of trust in it. As bitcoin continues to exist (which it will) trust in it grows. Therefore with increased trust in it, perhaps people that maybe only would've held a negligible amount of bitcoin might now start to hold more meaningful amounts of it as they see its benefits and turn to it for them.

So yes, I do see a lot of growth and I physically see that growth on a daily basis as I interact with people in the community and see more and more newcomers realizing its potential benefits. I see far more transactional activity on my lightning node as well and I can say for sure that's not because of some presidential election or ETF growth. That's grassroots growth.


LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2387 on: June 08, 2025, 04:16:53 PM »
LateStarter - See above for my argument that Bitcoin is already mainstream, especially that 1 in 6 adults have owned it.

Read your own source again, more carefully:
'US adults' is not 'adults'.
'cryptocurrency' is not 'Bitcoin'

My understanding is that the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve (SBR) is being setup using Bitcoin that "was forfeited", not new purchases.  For example, when the FBI seizes Bitcoin used for illegal activity, from now on that Bitcoin will be transferred to the SBR rather than sold.

"The Strategic Bitcoin Reserve will be capitalized with bitcoin owned by the Department of Treasury that was forfeited as part of criminal or civil asset forfeiture proceedings.  Other agencies will evaluate their legal authority to transfer any bitcoin owned by those agencies to the Strategic Bitcoin Reserve."
https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/03/fact-sheet-president-donald-j-trump-establishes-the-strategic-bitcoin-reserve-and-u-s-digital-asset-stockpile/

Read your own source again, more carefully:

'(c)  The Secretary of the Treasury and the Secretary of Commerce shall develop strategies for acquiring additional Government BTC provided that such strategies are budget neutral and do not impose incremental costs on United States taxpayers.'

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2388 on: June 08, 2025, 10:31:55 PM »
Crypto is almost pure speculation. It has marginal utility, but as an investment I just don't see it. If you want to do 5% or less of your portfolio, fine, but anything more feels like the risk is not worth the reward.

 

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