Author Topic: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation  (Read 347676 times)

WayDownSouth

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
  • Age: 194
  • Location: Outside
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2100 on: March 19, 2024, 08:42:14 PM »
It's still a gamble either way. There is no skill involved that a normal day trader or swing trader wouldn't already have. It's not so much the volatility it's the difficulty in marking anything useful as a genuine pattern or precursor of the biggest gains and drops.

Crypto has the simplest pattern ever as long as you zoom out far enough.  Every 4 years, sometime between October and January, BTC will hit its highest high. 
All Time Highs:
2013 December
2017 December
2021 November
2025 ???

This year has thrown a bit of a loop to this pattern though with an ATH off the four year cycle, but I'm betting that there will be a significant retracement before climbing all next year for the 2025 ATH at the end of the year.  I could be wrong and patterns don't repeat forever, but it certainly paid off very well in 2021.

LOL

Are you laughing because its that simple or because you're looking for more micro patterns for shorter trades?  Or perhaps you just dont think that pattern will repeat again?

Because so far (even though it only happened 3 times) that's the running pattern.... I could argue that each time it's moving up from the previous high is also a new high until that is broken at a later date, but that's just nitpicking and irrelevant to your point. Yes you could make smaller - I wouldn't say MICRO, but smaller trades with sufficient gains... But yeah, I had to LOL because I checked it and sure enough with the exception of right now, it's correct.

Regarding the exception of right now - maybe that means that this will be the off year and the latest record high won't be the high... I was betting on this thing dropping hard a few months ago but I'm now guessing that $80k and $100k are very real potential highs by mid-summer.


Juan Ponce de León

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2101 on: March 20, 2024, 09:00:36 AM »


Vanguard: do as we say not as we do

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7804
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2102 on: March 20, 2024, 10:29:15 AM »


Vanguard: do as we say not as we do

First, there's some bad math, or a misinterpretation, going on there. Any Vanguard mutual funds, and their respective ETFs, are part of the institution known as Vanguard. So, no, Vanguard and its funds don't own 14.37% of MSTR. Vanguard owns ~7.68%, total.

Second, it would make sense for index funds to own a stock that satisfies the index rules. Vanguard Total, for example, strives to "represents approximately 100% of the investable U.S. stock market and includes large-, mid-, small-, and micro-cap stocks." VTI holds over 3000 US stocks and MSTR is one of them.

This is not the "own" that Bitcoin News thinks it is.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4198
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2103 on: March 21, 2024, 09:37:45 PM »
This is not the "own" that Bitcoin News thinks it is.

I've observed that Bitcoin maxis commonly hold two viewpoints 1) The big money is trying to suppress Bitcoin, and 2)  The big money secretly admires Bitcoin and wants to get in on the future of finance. 

The two largest index mutual funds in the world--by far--are VTSAX (Vanguard total market) and VFIAX (Vanguard S&P 500) which comprise well over $2 trillion dollars of assets under management.  Vanguard isn't buying MSTR because Vanguard is secretly envious of Bitcoin.  Vanguard is buying MSTR because it is part of the index, and Vanguard has enormous resources devoted to doing nothing other than buying the index. 







LateStarter

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: UK
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2104 on: March 26, 2024, 04:08:30 PM »
I've observed that Bitcoin maxis commonly hold two viewpoints 1) The big money is trying to suppress Bitcoin, and 2)  The big money secretly admires Bitcoin and wants to get in on the future of finance.

1) Jamie Dimon: “I’ve always been deeply opposed to crypto, bitcoin, etc. The only true use case for it is criminals, drug traffickers … money laundering, tax avoidance. If I was the government, I’d close it down,”  cnbc.com

2) One bank playing a major role in the new Bitcoin ETFs is JPMorgan Chase. The bank is one of just a handful of firms that have signed on to be authorized participants.  fool.com

WayDownSouth

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 349
  • Age: 194
  • Location: Outside
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2105 on: March 26, 2024, 04:59:52 PM »
I've observed that Bitcoin maxis commonly hold two viewpoints 1) The big money is trying to suppress Bitcoin, and 2)  The big money secretly admires Bitcoin and wants to get in on the future of finance.

1) Jamie Dimon: “I’ve always been deeply opposed to crypto, bitcoin, etc. The only true use case for it is criminals, drug traffickers … money laundering, tax avoidance. If I was the government, I’d close it down,”  cnbc.com

2) One bank playing a major role in the new Bitcoin ETFs is JPMorgan Chase. The bank is one of just a handful of firms that have signed on to be authorized participants.  fool.com

Hahahahahahahaha.... I mean, he HAS to buy it because their customers demand it. Regardless, he's still completely full of shit. He speaks of criminal activity, money laundering, and tax evasion - three activities that big banks love to be a part of, if not enable.

I'm also highly doubtful he is the least bit concerned about the damage to human lives and families caused directly or indirectly by the various high-level illegal activities carried out by the institution he represents.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4198
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2106 on: March 26, 2024, 08:20:42 PM »
Hahahahahahahaha.... I mean, he HAS to buy it because their customers demand it. Regardless, he's still completely full of shit. He speaks of criminal activity, money laundering, and tax evasion - three activities that big banks love to be a part of, if not enable.

I'm also highly doubtful he is the least bit concerned about the damage to human lives and families caused directly or indirectly by the various high-level illegal activities carried out by the institution he represents.

What does that have to do with Vanguard? 

LateStarter

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: UK
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2107 on: March 27, 2024, 07:24:45 AM »
Hahahahahahahaha.... I mean, he HAS to buy it because their customers demand it. Regardless, he's still completely full of shit. He speaks of criminal activity, money laundering, and tax evasion - three activities that big banks love to be a part of, if not enable.

I'm also highly doubtful he is the least bit concerned about the damage to human lives and families caused directly or indirectly by the various high-level illegal activities carried out by the institution he represents.

What does that have to do with Vanguard?

It was me that brought Jamie Dimon / JPMorgan into the discussion, so I'll respond:  Your statements 1) and 2) referred to 'the big money' and not exclusively to Vanguard.

For the record, I'm probably a Bitcoin Maxi but I don't give a hoot about Vanguard's decision to not offer the Bitcoin Spot ETFs. They're a private company, they can do whatever they want and the market will punish/reward them as it sees fit. I also agree that they've bought MSTR as part of an index and not as an 'undercover' Bitcoin stash. Regardless, we're all Bitcoiners now. Welcome aboard.  :-)

HPstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2990
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2108 on: December 05, 2024, 07:39:39 AM »
It's just a number, but... Bitcoin has now hit $100K.  The value is now 2X when this thread started
« Last Edit: December 05, 2024, 08:09:17 AM by HPstache »

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20638
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2109 on: December 05, 2024, 08:46:32 AM »
It's just a number, but... Bitcoin has now hit $100K.  The value is now 2X when this thread started

Wild. I'm so curious what will happen long term.

I can see whatever principles have caused it to continue rising will probably continue to be in play for a decent length of time. Until some clear path forward for crypto reveals itself, the speculative investing will probably continue as it has. Bitcoin doesn't need to do anything for it's value to keep increasing, so it's just a question of how long and high that value can climb before it needs to actually be useful.

To me, the biggest question is if a hugely important use for crypto in general develops, what role will Bitcoin, specifically, have, and will it support it's peak value?

But the very thing that makes it fascinating to me is also what keeps me out of buying it. I can see the value continuing to climb impressively compared to stocks, but I would have no exit plan, and knowing me, I would buy a small amount, forget about it, and then totally miss the optimal selling timeline.

I also wouldn't be willing to invest enough that even doubling or tripling my money in a few years would be anything more than a rounding error on my NW.

Granted, that's as much a reason to buy as it is not to buy, if it's so little, who cares? But I suffer very little FOMO in general, so the urge to buy just isn't there.

That doesn't stop me from being intensely curious about how all of this will play out. And if I wanted to, I could always buy a crypto ETF instead...maybe I'll do that, just for funsies.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8346
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2110 on: December 05, 2024, 09:28:59 AM »
Wild. I'm so curious what will happen long term.
Curiously, the rationale for cryptocurrencies has completely changed. No longer is anyone talking about any of these ever being used as an actual currency. Instead they are being talked about as a long-term investment.

If they don't earn anything and do not become real currencies, then they must be greater-fool-theory investments or gold-like attempts at diversification. Yet there's not even the rationale that justifies greater-fool-theory investments or gold - that some scenario will happen and make the asset more desirable to other people in a certain way.

The closest we've come to a plausible narrative is that the Trump administration will make crypto a mainstream but essentially unregulated investing option. This is arguably the status quo, with multiple publicly traded crypto funds in the U.S. But it makes political sense considering that 17% of Americans owned (or at least thought they own) crypto this year. Trump won the youth vote by giving them hope that their tokens will appreciate. Looking ahead, expect to see more government policy directed toward pumping up crypto asset values - maybe eventually reaching a point where taxes are payable in crypto. That would be a big deal, and perhaps also the end of the republic as anything more than a ponzi scheme.

wantstoinvest

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 80
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2111 on: December 05, 2024, 10:32:32 AM »
i was wonderig if this thread or the FOMO thread was gonna get pumped on the news.

i still dont get it but people love crypto!!! even if it is a scheme, its lasted a while.

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7680
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2112 on: December 05, 2024, 11:06:11 AM »
Donald Trump picked a very crypto-friendly SEC chair, which I believe caused Bitcoin to surge in price over $100k.  Bitcoin's price has gone up about +50% in a month, with the jumps happening on news of the next administration.

I've noticed Bitcoin crashes with the stock market.

CAPE ratio tracks overvaluation in the stock market.  As of now, CAPE is now the 2nd highest in history (first being the dot-com crash, third being right before the 2022 crash).  It could continue upward for years, or it could crash when earnings disappoint.  And there's the risk of a trade war, and Fed policy resulting in something other than a smooth/no landing.  2025 could be a good year, but the odds seem against it, so I'd rather tread lightly.

After a market crash, Bitcoin would go back on my radar.  Buy low sell high...

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20638
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2113 on: December 05, 2024, 11:34:19 AM »
Donald Trump picked a very crypto-friendly SEC chair, which I believe caused Bitcoin to surge in price over $100k.  Bitcoin's price has gone up about +50% in a month, with the jumps happening on news of the next administration.

I've noticed Bitcoin crashes with the stock market.

CAPE ratio tracks overvaluation in the stock market.  As of now, CAPE is now the 2nd highest in history (first being the dot-com crash, third being right before the 2022 crash).  It could continue upward for years, or it could crash when earnings disappoint.  And there's the risk of a trade war, and Fed policy resulting in something other than a smooth/no landing.  2025 could be a good year, but the odds seem against it, so I'd rather tread lightly.

After a market crash, Bitcoin would go back on my radar.  Buy low sell high...

This is my thing with crypto, I have absolutely zero confidence in my ability to time selling.

LateStarter

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: UK
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2114 on: December 05, 2024, 12:05:08 PM »
Wild. I'm so curious what will happen long term.
Curiously, the rationale for cryptocurrencies has completely changed. No longer is anyone talking about any of these ever being used as an actual currency. Instead they are being talked about as a long-term investment.

Speaking only for Bitcoin, nothing has changed. I’ve said a hundred times in this topic that, right now, for wealthy westerners, Bitcoin is primarily a speculative investment. Bitcoin’s hard asset feature is what western Bitcoiners want vs infinite $, and at this still very early stage of adoption the potential gains are very large.

Bitcoin as a medium of exchange via Lightning and Liquid, etc. remains a distinct possibility in the future but there’s little urgency in the west where existing systems generally function pretty well.

joemandadman189

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1013
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2115 on: December 05, 2024, 01:12:23 PM »
To me, i don't see any issue with adding a low % of crypto to your over all allocation. We are currently have about 2.8% in Crypto with 75% of that in Bitcoin.
Supposedly we are entering the "banana zone". Several like cardano (ADA) and XRP are up ~275% and ~360% respectively in the last month, Bitcoin is up ~47% in that time.

I guess we will see what happens




MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7680
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2116 on: December 06, 2024, 12:39:02 AM »
One of the big drawbacks with timing the market, to buy low and sell high, is that you need two correct decisions.  I found a way around that when I invested 2020-2021: "stocks recover".  I bought during a crash, and sold when stocks recovered.  Something similar for Bitcoin would be waiting for a crash (-75% in 2022, -50% in Mar 2020), then buying a Bitcoin ETF.

The +50% jump in Bitcoin's price translates to a $600 billion USD increase in its market cap.  I'm sure the next administration will have friendly policies, but $600 billion is too optimistic in my view.  It assumes mainstream buying of something most people ignore.

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7680
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2117 on: December 06, 2024, 12:43:28 AM »
Curiously, the rationale for cryptocurrencies has completely changed. No longer is anyone talking about any of these ever being used as an actual currency. Instead they are being talked about as a long-term investment.
Bitcoin as a medium of exchange via Lightning and Liquid, etc. remains a distinct possibility in the future but there’s little urgency in the west where existing systems generally function pretty well.

El Salvador adopted Bitcoin as an official currency in 2021, and so far, 90% of the people prefer U.S. dollars instead.  And since "more Salvadorians had Bitcoin Lightning wallets than bank accounts", I think even the Lightning Network isn't solving their problems.

"A poll by the Centro de Estudios Ciudadanos at Francisco Gavidia University in November 2021, found that 91% of Salvadorans preferred to use the US dollar over Bitcoin.[41] In January 2022, Fortune reported that the switch to bitcoin had made paying remittances more difficult for many Salvadorans, rather than easier as had been promised, because the fees associated with the bitcoin transactions were several times as expensive as traditional remittances"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_in_El_Salvador

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5881
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2118 on: December 06, 2024, 08:49:20 AM »
I continue to have zero interest in owning bitcoin, but the folks who bet on it have certainly (assuming they sell at some appropriate time) won big time.

It will be interesting to see how (and whether) the Trump administration drives the price up. The whole goal seems to be to get more people onboard (in terms of owning Bitcoin, nobody uses it for anything still) and there are probably still more suckers to rope in.

-W

LateStarter

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: UK
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2119 on: December 06, 2024, 09:04:13 AM »
Curiously, the rationale for cryptocurrencies has completely changed. No longer is anyone talking about any of these ever being used as an actual currency. Instead they are being talked about as a long-term investment.
Bitcoin as a medium of exchange via Lightning and Liquid, etc. remains a distinct possibility in the future but there’s little urgency in the west where existing systems generally function pretty well.

El Salvador adopted Bitcoin as an official currency in 2021, and so far, 90% of the people prefer U.S. dollars instead.  And since "more Salvadorians had Bitcoin Lightning wallets than bank accounts", I think even the Lightning Network isn't solving their problems.

"A poll by the Centro de Estudios Ciudadanos at Francisco Gavidia University in November 2021, found that 91% of Salvadorans preferred to use the US dollar over Bitcoin.[41] In January 2022, Fortune reported that the switch to bitcoin had made paying remittances more difficult for many Salvadorans, rather than easier as had been promised, because the fees associated with the bitcoin transactions were several times as expensive as traditional remittances"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_in_El_Salvador

"So far" ?

Note that your poll = Nov 2021 = 2 months after Bitcoin became legal tender vs 20 years of dollarisation. Maybe the conclusion should be: After just 2 months, 10% of people preferred Bitcoin . . .

Regardless, the USD is very well established, familiar and comfortable, and probably good enough for most people for most day to day transactions. Likewise, I use GBP for day to day stuff with few qualms.
Weaponisation, surveillance, control, restrictions in traditional currency use are generally on the rise – that could eventually make Bitcoin preferable for day to day use – even vs strong traditional currencies.

As I said, I expect meansOfExchange to lag well behind investment/storeOfValue, especially in the west. I’ll add to that – dollarised nations as they are effectively ‘in the west’ in that respect.

The investment side of El Salvador’s Bitcoin experiment has clearly been a great success – so far.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25593
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2120 on: December 06, 2024, 11:36:15 AM »
Curiously, the rationale for cryptocurrencies has completely changed. No longer is anyone talking about any of these ever being used as an actual currency. Instead they are being talked about as a long-term investment.
Bitcoin as a medium of exchange via Lightning and Liquid, etc. remains a distinct possibility in the future but there’s little urgency in the west where existing systems generally function pretty well.

El Salvador adopted Bitcoin as an official currency in 2021, and so far, 90% of the people prefer U.S. dollars instead.  And since "more Salvadorians had Bitcoin Lightning wallets than bank accounts", I think even the Lightning Network isn't solving their problems.

"A poll by the Centro de Estudios Ciudadanos at Francisco Gavidia University in November 2021, found that 91% of Salvadorans preferred to use the US dollar over Bitcoin.[41] In January 2022, Fortune reported that the switch to bitcoin had made paying remittances more difficult for many Salvadorans, rather than easier as had been promised, because the fees associated with the bitcoin transactions were several times as expensive as traditional remittances"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_in_El_Salvador

"So far" ?

Note that your poll = Nov 2021 = 2 months after Bitcoin became legal tender vs 20 years of dollarisation. Maybe the conclusion should be: After just 2 months, 10% of people preferred Bitcoin . . .

Regardless, the USD is very well established, familiar and comfortable, and probably good enough for most people for most day to day transactions. Likewise, I use GBP for day to day stuff with few qualms.
Weaponisation, surveillance, control, restrictions in traditional currency use are generally on the rise – that could eventually make Bitcoin preferable for day to day use – even vs strong traditional currencies.

As I said, I expect meansOfExchange to lag well behind investment/storeOfValue, especially in the west. I’ll add to that – dollarised nations as they are effectively ‘in the west’ in that respect.

The investment side of El Salvador’s Bitcoin experiment has clearly been a great success – so far.

It's too early to say that El Salvador has been a success or a failure.

There have been some pretty significant growing pains.  There was a massive amount of hacking since the beginning, one of the latest being this: (https://cointelegraph.com/news/el-salvador-hacks-leak-state-bitcoin-wallet), lack of public interest in using bitcoin over traditional payment (61% of people stopped using it after they spent the 30$ bribe that the government distributed when forcing bitcoin on the people - https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/07/08/opinion/nayib-bukeles-failed-bitcoin-experiment-el-salvador/, and 20% of people who signed up for a wallet didn't even spend the 30$), much higher fees than traditional banking prevented the poor from being able to use it easily (and in some cases at all), huge swings in the value of bitcoin rendered it largely useless for the unbanked who are very poor (if you need to eat dinner or buy groceries that night, having a 15% swing in the value of your currency means you might not be able to), and the crooked government app with no oversight overseeing distribution sure didn't help either.

There has also been a win - since the recent massive increase in the value for bitcoin things are much brighter for a country that has a significant tie to it as a currency.  Anyone who has been saving in bitcoin in El Salvador is currently up (most by quite a bit).  As long as the gamble keeps winning, things will be rosy.  Maybe the massive problems associated with bitcoin will be solved in the future, and it will become a useful currency for the people of El Salvador.

lifeanon269

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 650
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2121 on: December 06, 2024, 12:53:02 PM »
The +50% jump in Bitcoin's price translates to a $600 billion USD increase in its market cap.  I'm sure the next administration will have friendly policies, but $600 billion is too optimistic in my view.  It assumes mainstream buying of something most people ignore.

Market cap is a useless/pointless metric. It is just an arbitrary number that has nothing to do with price discovery or price justification. Especially considering that there is a large percentage of bitcoin that is lost and will never be in circulation ever along with the large amount of bitcoin that hasn't moved in years. Market cap is just the price of bitcoin multiplied by an arbitrary supply number. Does an increase in the price of bitcoin require an influx of new money coming into bitcoin? Yes, but arguing that a +50% price for bitcoin would somehow require justification for an additional $600 billion in market cap ignores how price discovery is actually determined within the markets. The actual amount of bitcoin brought to market where price discovery takes place is far far smaller than the total circulating supply. It doesn't take much money to move the price of bitcoin large percentage because of the restricted supply of bitcoin brought to market, which is why it has historically been so volatile.

I continue to have zero interest in owning bitcoin, but the folks who bet on it have certainly (assuming they sell at some appropriate time) won big time.

It will be interesting to see how (and whether) the Trump administration drives the price up. The whole goal seems to be to get more people onboard (in terms of owning Bitcoin, nobody uses it for anything still) and there are probably still more suckers to rope in.

-W

At some point the narrative of "nobody uses it for anything still" has to go away. Is there a large percentage of traded bitcoin that is mostly for speculative purposes? Absolutely. That is true for just about every asset or commodity in the world. People just love betting, let's face it. Gold, which has its uses as jewelry and electronics is still a largely speculative asset when you account for the size of both gold used for investment purposes along with the larger speculative derivatives market.

In fact, the entire productive economy is dwarfed by the larger derivatives market (which is estimated to be somewhere between 2-4 quadrillion! dollars), which is wildly speculative in nature. So arguing that because bitcoin is largely speculative in nature therefore means no one is using it for economic transactions is a false assumption to make.

I know first hand that there is growing use of bitcoin for purchases and other economic transactions taking place around the world. Furthermore, someone who is saving money in bitcoin for the purposes of protecting their wealth from debasement of any given local fiat currency is in fact using bitcoin. That is absolutely a legitimate use case that I wouldn't consider speculative for those faced with that unfortunately reality. And let's face it, about half of the world has experienced double digit inflation over the last few years. So it isn't like that isn't a real or growing concern.

I think even the Lightning Network isn't solving their problems.

"A poll by the Centro de Estudios Ciudadanos at Francisco Gavidia University in November 2021, found that 91% of Salvadorans preferred to use the US dollar over Bitcoin.[41] In January 2022, Fortune reported that the switch to bitcoin had made paying remittances more difficult for many Salvadorans, rather than easier as had been promised, because the fees associated with the bitcoin transactions were several times as expensive as traditional remittances"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_in_El_Salvador

No doubt El Salvador botched their introduction to bitcoin for their citizens. But that is largely due to the fact that the wallet app that they made was and is a rushed and poorly developed mess. This is a custodial app that largely operates off servers in a datacenter which is where most of its problems lie. Just take a look at the reviews of the app in the PlayStore:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.chivo.wallet&hl=es_SV

This has little to do with the functionality of bitcoin or the lightning network and more to do with a shoddy developed application infrastructure that they used for their citizens. A vast majority of the problems experience have little to do with the lightning network. In contrast, take a look at the reviews for actual open-source lightning wallets and you'll see a stark difference is quality, functionality, and user experience (Bluewallet, Electrum, Zeus, Alby, Muun, Speed, WoS, Breez, etc).

As LateStarter said, you could easily flip the narrative to read that, even with a poorly developed app rife with technical issues, there were still 10% of the entire population that preferred to use bitcoin.

Regardless of opinions on bitcoin, I think the El Salvador experiment is pretty darn fascinating considering there really hasn't been anything like it before. It offers quite a bit of insight into what pitfalls and benefits there are to rolling out a new digital currency in an emerging market. No doubt there are many other similarly sized countries taking note to see how it plays out. User experience not withstanding, you can be sure that if El Salvador continues to succeed with its bitcoin reserves, there will be others that join along as well. The fact that an emerging country as small as El Salvador has been able to ditch external debt while also issuing their own bonds is pretty incredible. Their 10-20 year bonds are some of the highest performing bonds in emerging market debt.

At the end of the day, at some point people have to admit that bitcoin isn't going away and has legitimate use cases in our financial world. The market has clearly decided that regardless of what naysayers insist. This thread is going to continue to age and the calls of bitcoin's death throughout will die off far earlier than bitcoin. Every now and then I pop back in to read and gain slight amusement from the increasingly strained critiques.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25593
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2122 on: December 06, 2024, 01:13:59 PM »
someone who is saving money in bitcoin for the purposes of protecting their wealth from debasement of any given local fiat currency is in fact using bitcoin. That is absolutely a legitimate use case that I wouldn't consider speculative for those faced with that unfortunately reality.

At the end of the day, at some point people have to admit that bitcoin isn't going away and has legitimate use cases in our financial world.

You've defined a legitimate case of using bitcoin as holding on to it and hoping that someone else will buy it from you for more money at a later time (first quote).  Although you've gone to great lengths to specify that this is not speculation, it's the exact definition of speculation.  By the logic presented, beanie babies also have legitimate use cases in our financial world (and are also not speculation).  The same mechanism that gives one beanie babies value gives bitcoin value - a hope that it will go up in value because someone else desires it for no logical reason.

The market has clearly decided that regardless of what naysayers insist. This thread is going to continue to age and the calls of bitcoin's death throughout will die off far earlier than bitcoin. Every now and then I pop back in to read and gain slight amusement from the increasingly strained critiques.

I'm not sure this thought carries the weight you seem to believe it does.  The market clearly decided that some tulip bulbs were worth as much as a house in the 17th century.  The market in the '90s clearly decided that beanie babies were worth hundreds (in some cases thousands) of dollars.  The market decides lots of stuff and then later says 'oopsies, I dun fucked up' later on.  "But my beanie baby is worth sooooo much more money now, lol!" - is not a refutation of the critiques levied, and doesn't make them strained.

LateStarter

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: UK
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2123 on: December 06, 2024, 01:28:00 PM »
Curiously, the rationale for cryptocurrencies has completely changed. No longer is anyone talking about any of these ever being used as an actual currency. Instead they are being talked about as a long-term investment.
Bitcoin as a medium of exchange via Lightning and Liquid, etc. remains a distinct possibility in the future but there’s little urgency in the west where existing systems generally function pretty well.

El Salvador adopted Bitcoin as an official currency in 2021, and so far, 90% of the people prefer U.S. dollars instead.  And since "more Salvadorians had Bitcoin Lightning wallets than bank accounts", I think even the Lightning Network isn't solving their problems.

"A poll by the Centro de Estudios Ciudadanos at Francisco Gavidia University in November 2021, found that 91% of Salvadorans preferred to use the US dollar over Bitcoin.[41] In January 2022, Fortune reported that the switch to bitcoin had made paying remittances more difficult for many Salvadorans, rather than easier as had been promised, because the fees associated with the bitcoin transactions were several times as expensive as traditional remittances"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_in_El_Salvador

"So far" ?

Note that your poll = Nov 2021 = 2 months after Bitcoin became legal tender vs 20 years of dollarisation. Maybe the conclusion should be: After just 2 months, 10% of people preferred Bitcoin . . .

Regardless, the USD is very well established, familiar and comfortable, and probably good enough for most people for most day to day transactions. Likewise, I use GBP for day to day stuff with few qualms.
Weaponisation, surveillance, control, restrictions in traditional currency use are generally on the rise – that could eventually make Bitcoin preferable for day to day use – even vs strong traditional currencies.

As I said, I expect meansOfExchange to lag well behind investment/storeOfValue, especially in the west. I’ll add to that – dollarised nations as they are effectively ‘in the west’ in that respect.

The investment side of El Salvador’s Bitcoin experiment has clearly been a great success – so far.

It's too early to say that El Salvador has been a success or a failure.

I wholeheartedly agree, and made no claim otherwise. In the meantime, the direction of travel “so far”, is clearly in the direction of great success.

There have been some pretty significant growing pains.  There was a massive amount of hacking since the beginning, one of the latest being this: (https://cointelegraph.com/news/el-salvador-hacks-leak-state-bitcoin-wallet),

Indeed. However, note that Chivo wallet problems do not equal Bitcoin problems.

lack of public interest in using bitcoin over traditional payment (61% of people stopped using it after they spent the 30$ bribe that the government distributed when forcing bitcoin on the people - https://www.bostonglobe.com/2022/07/08/opinion/nayib-bukeles-failed-bitcoin-experiment-el-salvador/

39% of people continued to use Bitcoin after spending the $30 – that’s impressive !

and 20% of people who signed up for a wallet didn't even spend the 30$)

20% of people didn’t spend their “$30” so they now have around $90 – nice !

much higher fees than traditional banking prevented the poor from being able to use it easily (and in some cases at all), huge swings in the value of bitcoin rendered it largely useless for the unbanked who are very poor (if you need to eat dinner or buy groceries that night, having a 15% swing in the value of your currency means you might not be able to), and the crooked government app with no oversight overseeing distribution sure didn't help either.

There has also been a win - since the recent massive increase in the value for bitcoin things are much brighter for a country that has a significant tie to it as a currency.  Anyone who has been saving in bitcoin in El Salvador is currently up (most by quite a bit).  As long as the gamble keeps winning, things will be rosy.  Maybe the massive problems associated with bitcoin will be solved in the future, and it will become a useful currency for the people of El Salvador.

Almost positive there but I think you’re overplaying the “massive problems” card.
If you’re referring to volatility, it’s volatile and will continue to be volatile during the ongoing adoption phase. How could such a revolutionary change not be volatile ? The expectation is that it becomes progressively less volatile as it gets more widely adopted. Until then . . .

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5881
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2124 on: December 06, 2024, 01:43:11 PM »
I realize we've already been through this about 20 times, but @LateStarter I'm curious - what mechanism would cause the volatility to decrease? I can imagine some ways to design a currency to be stable , but Bitcoin isn't set up that way at all. The appeal to speculators is a feature, not a bug, as far as I can tell, and an inherently speculative currency is never going to work well for trade.

I personally don't care either way if I end up paying for donuts with dollars or Bitcoins or cowri shells, since I don't own more than maybe 20,000 dollars worth of actual currency at any given time. But I have a hard time imagining Bitcoin being anything more than digital gold in the long run.

-W

lifeanon269

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 650
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2125 on: December 06, 2024, 02:16:37 PM »
someone who is saving money in bitcoin for the purposes of protecting their wealth from debasement of any given local fiat currency is in fact using bitcoin. That is absolutely a legitimate use case that I wouldn't consider speculative for those faced with that unfortunately reality.

At the end of the day, at some point people have to admit that bitcoin isn't going away and has legitimate use cases in our financial world.

You've defined a legitimate case of using bitcoin as holding on to it and hoping that someone else will buy it from you for more money at a later time (first quote).  Although you've gone to great lengths to specify that this is not speculation, it's the exact definition of speculation.  By the logic presented, beanie babies also have legitimate use cases in our financial world (and are also not speculation).  The same mechanism that gives one beanie babies value gives bitcoin value - a hope that it will go up in value because someone else desires it for no logical reason.

That's not what I said. I very specifically said someone protecting their wealth from debasement. It is simply a matter of fact that fiat currencies are debased. If I hold $100k in fiat currency, that is $100k in an ever increasing and infinite total supply. If I hold 1 bitcoin, that is forever 1 bitcoin out a total supply of 21 million. That's not speculation; ie, the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence. Regardless of what the exchange rate does, that is a legitimate reason for many to escape their local currencies at times of heavy fiat debasement where even if bitcoin were to lose value in US dollar terms, escaping a local fiat currency that is heavily debased into a currency that can't be debased is a non-speculative reason to own bitcoin. By my logic here, beanie babies do not fall under that same reasoning as you said I implied.

You've also ignored the fact that I also acknowledge other legitimate use cases for bitcoin which do not involve simply holding onto it which are also widely growing in use around the world year after year.

The market has clearly decided that regardless of what naysayers insist. This thread is going to continue to age and the calls of bitcoin's death throughout will die off far earlier than bitcoin. Every now and then I pop back in to read and gain slight amusement from the increasingly strained critiques.

I'm not sure this thought carries the weight you seem to believe it does.  The market clearly decided that some tulip bulbs were worth as much as a house in the 17th century.  The market in the '90s clearly decided that beanie babies were worth hundreds (in some cases thousands) of dollars.  The market decides lots of stuff and then later says 'oopsies, I dun fucked up' later on.  "But my beanie baby is worth sooooo much more money now, lol!" - is not a refutation of the critiques levied, and doesn't make them strained.

Ah, the old tulip bulb and beanie baby comparison. Comparing tulips and beanie babies (both of which crashed within 3-4 years time) to a functional digital monetary network that solves several previously unsolved problems in computing as well as several unsolved problems (outside of bitcoin) in today's financial world is a growing increasingly tired and frankly not even worth the time to dispute anymore. You can simply look through my past post history and see I've already done that at great length.

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5881
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2126 on: December 06, 2024, 02:35:13 PM »
But I own *stuff* (stocks, real estate, fancy bicycles, etc), not currency. I don't care if my fiat currency gets debased, I only need enough to make transactions with. At most 1% of my NW is actual money. I also owe money (deliberately) at low fixed interest rates on a few pieces of real estate, so currency debasement would be a HUGE win for me if it happened and those debts were suddenly inflated away.

I don't get the protecting your savings angle. Who (among people who have enough to invest in the first place) hoards actual cash (or electronic equivalents)?

-W
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 02:38:28 PM by waltworks »

LateStarter

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: UK
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2127 on: December 06, 2024, 02:44:25 PM »
I realize we've already been through this about 20 times, but @LateStarter I'm curious - what mechanism would cause the volatility to decrease? I can imagine some ways to design a currency to be stable , but Bitcoin isn't set up that way at all. The appeal to speculators is a feature, not a bug, as far as I can tell, and an inherently speculative currency is never going to work well for trade.

Bitcoin's volatility is trending down: https://www.coinglass.com/pro/i/bl

As a rule of thumb, simple inertia reduces volatility. Big cap widely distributed instruments tend to be less volatile than small cap narrowly owned instruments.

Speculative currencies don't work ?
Foreign exchange trading, commonly referred to as forex or FX, represents the world’s largest financial market, where currencies are bought and sold to turn a profit. This global marketplace is unparalleled in its liquidity, with a staggering daily trading volume that reached a record $7.5 trillion in 2022, as reported by the Bank for International Settlements (BIS).
https://www.theglobaltreasurer.com/2024/04/18/highlights-in-forex-trading-for-2024-and-beyond/

I personally don't care either way if I end up paying for donuts with dollars or Bitcoins or cowri shells, since I don't own more than maybe 20,000 dollars worth of actual currency at any given time. But I have a hard time imagining Bitcoin being anything more than digital gold in the long run.

You're very fortunate in that respect (as am I). Most of the world population is less fortunate, many much less so.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24waV3Fwvow&ab_channel=BitcoinMagazine  - (also with ref. to your earlier statement that nobody uses Bitcoin for anything).
Alex Gladstein (Chief Strategy Officer for the Human Rights Foundation) is very pro-Bitcoin for Humanitarian reasons. You might disagree with his views and ideas, but many of the things discussed have happened and/or are happening now.


And Digital Gold is still a reasonably good analogy imo – not perfect, but ok.
Bitcoin is harder and easier to store/secure than gold = better for saving.
Bitcoin is more portable, verifiable and divisible than gold = better for spending.

lifeanon269

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 650
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2128 on: December 06, 2024, 02:45:08 PM »
I don't care if my fiat currency gets debased, I only need enough to make transactions with. At most 1% of my NW is actual money. I also owe money (deliberately) at low fixed interest rates on a few pieces of real estate, so currency debasement would be a HUGE win for me if it happened and those debts were suddenly inflated away.

That's great. But just because that particular use case doesn't fit your needs doesn't mean that use case isn't of value to many others in the world who aren't in your fortunate situation.

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5881
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2129 on: December 06, 2024, 03:20:29 PM »
Sure, but the people in the world who have no savings also don't particularly benefit regardless of what monetary system we use. If you have no surplus, you're screwed regardless.

If you do have savings, you can probably turn those savings into something that has intrinsic value, even if it's something as simple as cell phone minutes (https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2013/01/19/airtime-is-money).

-W

lifeanon269

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 650
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2130 on: December 06, 2024, 03:34:05 PM »
Sure, but the people in the world who have no savings also don't particularly benefit regardless of what monetary system we use. If you have no surplus, you're screwed regardless.

If you do have savings, you can probably turn those savings into something that has intrinsic value, even if it's something as simple as cell phone minutes (https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2013/01/19/airtime-is-money).

-W

The strong correlation for the use of bitcoin among populations vulnerable to heavy fiat currency debasement would suggest otherwise. Take Nigeria, for example, where bitcoin usage among its population reaches over 30%, which is far higher than other western populations.

"Intrinsic value" is such a meaningless term. There is no firm definition or criteria for what intrinsic value across things the term is applied to and therefore itself is a highly subjective term. The fact that you claim that cellular minutes have intrinsic value but bitcoin does not further proves this. There is functionally no difference between the criteria you could possibly use to define intrinsic value of cell phone minutes that couldn't also be used to define the intrinsic value of bitcoin. At the end of the day, bitcoin solves problems that no other technology solves and solves financial problems for people that other traditional financial tools fail to solve and there is a growing population of people in the world that find it useful. Whether or not you conclude there is no "intrinsic value" is simply viewing a technology from your own personal and highly subjective viewpoint.

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5881
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2131 on: December 06, 2024, 03:38:00 PM »
Fair enough, I hope it works out like you say!

-W

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8346
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2132 on: December 06, 2024, 04:14:15 PM »
I'm actually becoming more interested in crypto, after years of scorning it.

To be clear, it is a greater-fool-theory investment, a perpetually-self-reinforcing honey-trap run by scammers, and an utter failure at the job of being a "currency".

But I think in the most recent election it has revealed itself as a useful political tool. 17% of Americans now own some crypto, and Trump's promises to change the government to pump crypto certainly won some of their votes. OTOH, there are approximately zero votes at the margin for candidates who want this distributed Ponzi scheme banished from the planet. Pro-crypto is now the political consensus, no candidate can win without it, and we can expect to see more government support. That means more ETFs, more 401k options, more scams, and eventually tax breaks. I can imagine a path to paying taxes with crypto - which would both make crypto a "real-ish" currency and destroy the USD.

I think it's likely bitcoin in particular either keeps rallying or stays above 100k until inauguration (have you seen the next SEC chair?). The play would be to sell a put on BITO at the 25 strike (closing price today $26.02), expiring January 17, for around $2. If BITO fails to fall by over 4%, then the put expires worthless and it's an 8% return on the cash set aside. BITO must fall 11.6%, to 23, before you lose any money. And if you did end up buying BITO, you just wheel out of it by selling a similarly priced call.

Perhaps this idea makes me the "greater fool" I've always talked about, but it's the options premiums payable in USD that I'm interested in. If the US government starts accepting or holding crypto, I might become a goldbug, because they'd be taking on debt to pump an asset that is not generally accepted for trade and is primarily useful in the context of political manipulation. Gold is also not in my nature, but I recognize times and political priorities have changed, and the consensus seems to be we must destroy the US dollar to get out of our national debt.

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5881
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2133 on: December 06, 2024, 06:15:29 PM »
Agreed, I could imagine a variety of scenarios where crypto interests/promoters capture enough of the levers of government policy that the price goes up a LOT. In all of those scenarios I can also imagine collapsing the real economy when the scheme runs out of new entrants, because it'll be inextricably linked to the functioning of the entire economy/gov't.

The question I guess is, jump on the bandwagon and hope you can jump off at the right time, or figure out some alternate investment strategy that minimizes the risk (diversify more internationally, buy more stocks and completely avoid bonds, real estate, etc, etc)?

-W

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7680
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2134 on: December 07, 2024, 12:51:19 AM »
Curiously, the rationale for cryptocurrencies has completely changed. No longer is anyone talking about any of these ever being used as an actual currency. Instead they are being talked about as a long-term investment.
Bitcoin as a medium of exchange via Lightning and Liquid, etc. remains a distinct possibility in the future but there’s little urgency in the west where existing systems generally function pretty well.

El Salvador adopted Bitcoin as an official currency in 2021, and so far, 90% of the people prefer U.S. dollars instead.  And since "more Salvadorians had Bitcoin Lightning wallets than bank accounts", I think even the Lightning Network isn't solving their problems.

"A poll by the Centro de Estudios Ciudadanos at Francisco Gavidia University in November 2021, found that 91% of Salvadorans preferred to use the US dollar over Bitcoin.[41] In January 2022, Fortune reported that the switch to bitcoin had made paying remittances more difficult for many Salvadorans, rather than easier as had been promised, because the fees associated with the bitcoin transactions were several times as expensive as traditional remittances"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_in_El_Salvador

"So far" ?

Note that your poll = Nov 2021 = 2 months after Bitcoin became legal tender vs 20 years of dollarisation. Maybe the conclusion should be: After just 2 months, 10% of people preferred Bitcoin . . .

Regardless, the USD is very well established, familiar and comfortable, and probably good enough for most people for most day to day transactions. Likewise, I use GBP for day to day stuff with few qualms.
Weaponisation, surveillance, control, restrictions in traditional currency use are generally on the rise – that could eventually make Bitcoin preferable for day to day use – even vs strong traditional currencies.

As I said, I expect meansOfExchange to lag well behind investment/storeOfValue, especially in the west. I’ll add to that – dollarised nations as they are effectively ‘in the west’ in that respect.

The investment side of El Salvador’s Bitcoin experiment has clearly been a great success – so far.

"Some 88% of Salvadorans did not use it in 2023, according to a survey by the University of Central America's public opinion institute. Just 1% of remittances were sent in bitcoin."
https://www.reuters.com/technology/short-cash-el-salvador-doubles-down-bitcoin-dream-2024-02-02/

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7680
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2135 on: December 07, 2024, 12:54:39 AM »
17% of Americans now own some crypto, and Trump's promises to change the government to pump crypto certainly won some of their votes.
"ever invested in", not "now own".  For example, I have bought and sold several cryptocurrencies, and currently own none.

"Overall, 17% of U.S. adults say they have ever invested in, traded or used a cryptocurrency."
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/10/24/majority-of-americans-arent-confident-in-the-safety-and-reliability-of-cryptocurrency/

LateStarter

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: UK
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2136 on: December 07, 2024, 05:16:10 AM »
. . . .  The play would be to sell a put on BITO at the 25 strike . . . .

. . . The question I guess is, jump on the bandwagon . . .

Have we really reached the stage when financially literate wealthy people that don’t ‘get’ Bitcoin and have expressed an active dislike of Bitcoin are considering trading long and/or capitulating and reluctantly climbing aboard ?

Have we got that far already ? Maybe I’m not bullish enough . . .

LateStarter

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: UK
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2137 on: December 07, 2024, 05:19:16 AM »
Agreed, I could imagine a variety of scenarios where crypto interests/promoters capture enough of the levers of government policy that the price goes up a LOT. In all of those scenarios I can also imagine collapsing the real economy when the scheme runs out of new entrants, because it'll be inextricably linked to the functioning of the entire economy/gov't.

The question I guess is, jump on the bandwagon and hope you can jump off at the right time, or figure out some alternate investment strategy that minimizes the risk (diversify more internationally, buy more stocks and completely avoid bonds, real estate, etc, etc)?

Please explain how and why Bitcoin collapses “when the scheme runs out of new entrants”.
You seem to be describing a Ponzi scheme. Contrary to popular bullshit, Bitcoin is very clearly not a Ponzi scheme - Bitcoin has no requirement for an infinite supply of new entrants.
Some like to describe Bitcoin as a ‘distributed Ponzi scheme’. As far as I can tell, this term is meaningless and only serves as a vehicle to smuggle the ‘Ponzi’ slur into where it doesn’t belong.

LateStarter

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: UK
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2138 on: December 07, 2024, 05:25:45 AM »
Curiously, the rationale for cryptocurrencies has completely changed. No longer is anyone talking about any of these ever being used as an actual currency. Instead they are being talked about as a long-term investment.
Bitcoin as a medium of exchange via Lightning and Liquid, etc. remains a distinct possibility in the future but there’s little urgency in the west where existing systems generally function pretty well.

El Salvador adopted Bitcoin as an official currency in 2021, and so far, 90% of the people prefer U.S. dollars instead.  And since "more Salvadorians had Bitcoin Lightning wallets than bank accounts", I think even the Lightning Network isn't solving their problems.

"A poll by the Centro de Estudios Ciudadanos at Francisco Gavidia University in November 2021, found that 91% of Salvadorans preferred to use the US dollar over Bitcoin.[41] In January 2022, Fortune reported that the switch to bitcoin had made paying remittances more difficult for many Salvadorans, rather than easier as had been promised, because the fees associated with the bitcoin transactions were several times as expensive as traditional remittances"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_in_El_Salvador

"So far" ?

Note that your poll = Nov 2021 = 2 months after Bitcoin became legal tender vs 20 years of dollarisation. Maybe the conclusion should be: After just 2 months, 10% of people preferred Bitcoin . . .

Regardless, the USD is very well established, familiar and comfortable, and probably good enough for most people for most day to day transactions. Likewise, I use GBP for day to day stuff with few qualms.
Weaponisation, surveillance, control, restrictions in traditional currency use are generally on the rise – that could eventually make Bitcoin preferable for day to day use – even vs strong traditional currencies.

As I said, I expect meansOfExchange to lag well behind investment/storeOfValue, especially in the west. I’ll add to that – dollarised nations as they are effectively ‘in the west’ in that respect.

The investment side of El Salvador’s Bitcoin experiment has clearly been a great success – so far.

"Some 88% of Salvadorans did not use it in 2023, according to a survey by the University of Central America's public opinion institute. Just 1% of remittances were sent in bitcoin."
https://www.reuters.com/technology/short-cash-el-salvador-doubles-down-bitcoin-dream-2024-02-02/

As I said above: Regardless, . . .

If your default money is USD, you’re currently doing ok - you're probably not very motivated to use Bitcoin for day to day transactions.
Does that mean Bitcoin has failed as a currency ? Of course not – it’s still very early. As lifeanon269 said, go and look where currencies are weak and/or hyper-inflating. Those unfortunate people are highly motivated to seek alternatives.

I am a bit surprised at the ‘face value’ 1% remittances – that’s lower than I might have expected. However, I can’t find the actual poll or the poll results online. It would be interesting to learn more about the background to that number.

Juan Ponce de León

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2139 on: December 07, 2024, 06:09:34 AM »
Let's say a remittance was sent with Bitcoin, how would a government even know that?  As for the new entrants, Bitcoin won't run out of them.  Fractional reserve banking and governments funding deficits by central bank money printing ensures new entrants are printed daily.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2024, 06:11:14 AM by Juan Ponce de León »

waltworks

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5881
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2140 on: December 07, 2024, 08:24:00 AM »
. . . .  The play would be to sell a put on BITO at the 25 strike . . . .

. . . The question I guess is, jump on the bandwagon . . .

Have we really reached the stage when financially literate wealthy people that don’t ‘get’ Bitcoin and have expressed an active dislike of Bitcoin are considering trading long and/or capitulating and reluctantly climbing aboard ?

Have we got that far already ? Maybe I’m not bullish enough . . .

Nah, I mean, I'm set no matter what (well, barring a real SHTF situation like a war) so I'm not really interested in chasing returns on something that I find icky/scammy/poorly designed/environmentally awful. If someday I need Bitcoin to buy groceries, that's fine, my wealth isn't tied up in cash so I'll just be using a different set of numbers on a plastic card.

But those of us who for years were saying it would crash to zero have all been proven wrong. There's a sucker born every minute, right? Given that Trump is pretty much always for sale to the highest bidder, I'm guessing we'll see a lot of promotion of Bitcoin and a lot more people buying/owning/speculating in it. I still doubt I'll be buying groceries anytime soon, though.

-W

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3617
  • Age: 95
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • Plug pulled
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2141 on: December 07, 2024, 01:27:48 PM »
While Bitcoin has lived on, there is a survivorship bias. Many, many cryptocurrencies have also failed for various reasons. Maybe the survivorship bias is what gives it the psychological validity for a currency (any currency, really) to be viewed as a store of value. Maybe we just have not seen enough time yet for what will replace it. Currencies that are used for regular transactions seem to work best for the broader economy when their value is relatively stable rather than a source of speculation in and of themselves. Currency is an abstract substitute for barter. Currency distorts the economy if the value relative to bartered items shifts significantly betwee potential transactions regardless of if that shift is inflationary or deflationary.

GuitarStv

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 25593
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2142 on: December 07, 2024, 03:22:33 PM »
While Bitcoin has lived on, there is a survivorship bias. Many, many cryptocurrencies have also failed for various reasons. Maybe the survivorship bias is what gives it the psychological validity for a currency (any currency, really) to be viewed as a store of value. Maybe we just have not seen enough time yet for what will replace it. Currencies that are used for regular transactions seem to work best for the broader economy when their value is relatively stable rather than a source of speculation in and of themselves. Currency is an abstract substitute for barter. Currency distorts the economy if the value relative to bartered items shifts significantly betwee potential transactions regardless of if that shift is inflationary or deflationary.


Crypto is not currency though.  They're all misnamed.

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4198
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2143 on: December 07, 2024, 06:27:37 PM »
It's too early to say that El Salvador has been a success or a failure.

El Salvador's Bitcoin experiment has been a clear failure.   In 2023, only 12% of Salvadorians used Bitcoin at least one time during the year, down from 24% the previous year.   Of those who did use Bitcoin in 2023, half used it between one and three times.  Only 20% used it more than 10 times in one year.    Merchants are legally required to accept Bitcoin, but most refuse to do so.   

A major selling point for the Bitcoin law was faster and cheaper remittances, which is a big part of the Salvadorean economy.  Bitcoin represents about 1% remittances and the amount is declining by large percentages.   

The normal adoption curve for new technology typically goes: early adaptors, fast followers, late majority, and laggards.   In the case of Bitcoin in El Salvador there were early adaptors...who then mostly stopped using it.  There is no adoption curve.  It is an abandonment curve. 

Some have suggested that the Salvadorean government's investment in Bitcoin has been a good deal.  However, objectively thus far the benefit to the Salvadorean people has been zero.   There will only be a benefit when the government sells the Bitcoin (hopefully at a profit) and returns the money to the taxpayers in some form.   Because that has not happened, there has been zero benefit to the citizens. 

If you do have savings, you can probably turn those savings into something that has intrinsic value, even if it's something as simple as cell phone minutes (https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2013/01/19/airtime-is-money).

-W

Cell phone minutes are an interesting example.  M-Pesa was created by Vodaphone in Kenya in 2007, a few years before Bitcoin.  M-Pesa and similar companies (called mobile money) now provide financial services to approximately 1.5 billion unbanked customers, mostly in Africa and India.  80% of Ugandan cell phone owners use mobile money. 

Telecaster

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 4198
  • Location: Seattle, WA
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2144 on: December 07, 2024, 07:49:03 PM »
Please explain how and why Bitcoin collapses “when the scheme runs out of new entrants”.
You seem to be describing a Ponzi scheme. Contrary to popular bullshit, Bitcoin is very clearly not a Ponzi scheme - Bitcoin has no requirement for an infinite supply of new entrants.
Some like to describe Bitcoin as a ‘distributed Ponzi scheme’. As far as I can tell, this term is meaningless and only serves as a vehicle to smuggle the ‘Ponzi’ slur into where it doesn’t belong.

I heartily agree.  Nothing about Bitcoin meets any definition of a Ponzi scheme.   It is not helpful to interject that term in regards to Bitcoin and I wish people would stop doing it.  I also wish people would stop saying the price will go to zero, because there is scant evidence that it will go to zero because some people clearly want to own it. 

Bitcoin's price--like all commodities--is set by supply and demand.  The more people who want it, the more the price goes up, and vice versa.  I've stated this many times on this board over the course of the years.  But supply and demand means a rising Bitcoin price requires new entrants. 

However, the price cannot go up indefinitely.  It will top out because the world population is finite. When the number of new buyers tops out the price will stop rising.  When we've discussed Bitcoin over the years, the pro argument always comes down to "line go up."  And if you don't buy "have fun staying poor."   Sure, there are some use cases around the margins.  Like if you live in Zimbabwe or some such.  But that's not most people and that's not the reason most people buy Bitcoin.  Most people--and by "most people" I mean essentially everyone--buy Bitcoin because they believe the price will go up. 

At some point, the number of people who want to own Bitcoin will reach a peak.  Mathmatically, it must. 

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7680
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2145 on: December 08, 2024, 02:44:12 AM »
Glenstache -
While Bitcoin has lived on, there is a survivorship bias. Many, many cryptocurrencies have also failed for various reasons. Maybe the survivorship bias is what gives it the psychological validity for a currency (any currency, really) to be viewed as a store of value. Maybe we just have not seen enough time yet for what will replace it. Currencies that are used for regular transactions seem to work best for the broader economy when their value is relatively stable rather than a source of speculation in and of themselves. Currency is an abstract substitute for barter. Currency distorts the economy if the value relative to bartered items shifts significantly betwee potential transactions regardless of if that shift is inflationary or deflationary.

That graph treats "Joke or No Purpose" as a collapse.  The problem is that joke coins have not collapsed, like DOGE (#7) and SHIB (#12).  Those coins haven't collapsed, and were both started as jokes.  Their "joke" category needs an asterisk.

Bitcoin has a futures market, and as of this year, many ETFs directly tracking Bitcoin.  Maybe Ethereum follows later, but for now Bitcoin's status is unique.  It is the largest and oldest cryptocurrency.  It is not vying for survival with other cryptocurrencies - I'm not seeing the case for survival bias.

MustacheAndaHalf

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7680
  • Location: U.S. expat
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2146 on: December 08, 2024, 02:46:02 AM »
Crypto is not currency though.  They're all misnamed.
I sympathize with Bitcoin not having the same characteristics of USD or the Euro, but according to the dictionary that battle has already been lost.

"cryptocurrency - noun

any form of currency that only exists digitally, that usually has no central issuing or regulating authority but instead uses a decentralized system to record transactions and manage the issuance of new units, and that relies on cryptography to prevent counterfeiting and fraudulent transactions"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cryptocurrency

Glenstache

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3617
  • Age: 95
  • Location: Upper left corner
  • Plug pulled
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2147 on: December 08, 2024, 10:35:37 AM »
Glenstache -
While Bitcoin has lived on, there is a survivorship bias. Many, many cryptocurrencies have also failed for various reasons. Maybe the survivorship bias is what gives it the psychological validity for a currency (any currency, really) to be viewed as a store of value. Maybe we just have not seen enough time yet for what will replace it. Currencies that are used for regular transactions seem to work best for the broader economy when their value is relatively stable rather than a source of speculation in and of themselves. Currency is an abstract substitute for barter. Currency distorts the economy if the value relative to bartered items shifts significantly betwee potential transactions regardless of if that shift is inflationary or deflationary.

That graph treats "Joke or No Purpose" as a collapse.  The problem is that joke coins have not collapsed, like DOGE (#7) and SHIB (#12).  Those coins haven't collapsed, and were both started as jokes.  Their "joke" category needs an asterisk.

Bitcoin has a futures market, and as of this year, many ETFs directly tracking Bitcoin.  Maybe Ethereum follows later, but for now Bitcoin's status is unique.  It is the largest and oldest cryptocurrency.  It is not vying for survival with other cryptocurrencies - I'm not seeing the case for survival bias.

Is this a "crypto" allocation generally or a "BTC" allocation specifically? There are plenty of people throwing money at non-BTC crypto assets with wildly different results. BTC seems likely to be around for the near future with a non-zero value, but that is not universally true for other crypto assets and I think there is still a case for survivorship bias in the crypto space as a whole. I understand that there are a number of other financial instruments that are tracking BTC which gives it an air of legitimacy and sense of acceptance by the financial power players. This is great for BTC. It remains a highly volatile space and all the caveats regarding market timing and warnings that past gains do not predict future performance still apply.

bacchi

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7804
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2148 on: December 08, 2024, 11:06:33 AM »
Quote from: https://www.wired.com/story/memecoin-kid-backlash/
By 7:56 pm PT, a whirlwind eight minutes later, Biesk's son’s tokens [of his own recently created coin] were worth almost $30,000—and he cashed out.
[...]
On December 1, after a two-week hiatus, Biesk’s son returned to Pump.Fun to launch five new memecoins, apparently undeterred by the abuse. Disregarding the warnings built into the very names of some of the new coins—one was named test and another dontbuy—people bought in. Biesk’s son made another $5,000.

The dad comes off as a jerk but, then, who are the fools buying these rando crypto coins from a site named "pump.fun"?

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8346
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #2149 on: December 08, 2024, 11:44:38 AM »
. . . .  The play would be to sell a put on BITO at the 25 strike . . . .

. . . The question I guess is, jump on the bandwagon . . .

Have we really reached the stage when financially literate wealthy people that don’t ‘get’ Bitcoin and have expressed an active dislike of Bitcoin are considering trading long and/or capitulating and reluctantly climbing aboard ?

Have we got that far already ? Maybe I’m not bullish enough . . .
I would consider my proposed options play to be a gamble on the theme that the Trump administration will be expected by others to do all it can to pump crypto. After inauguration, I'm a bit less certain because prices could do anything for any reason, or no reason at all.

The capitulation is in recognizing that a bear market is stocks is statistically overdue, valuations can charitably be called "outrageous", and US government policy may be heading simultaneously toward the tariffs+austerity policies that made the Great Depression so Great and also the policies of governments whose currencies have suffered devaluations. In that pessimistic light, when you see 8%-in-a-month lying around, you pick it up. On short timeframes like this, the prices of a crypto fund has about the same predictability as a company.

At the bottom in 2009, the winning thought process was to ask oneself "Is the government doing the right things to prevent another Great Depression" and the answer would have been yes. Similarly, the passage of massive stimulus in 2020 should have delivered the same answer. In 1930, a person could have predicted the opposite from the government's behavior around tariffs, taxes, failing banks, and welfare.

If cryptocurrency is getting official government support and SEC rubber-stamps in 2025, a similar thought process might be a rational speculation.

I also wish people would stop saying the price will go to zero, because there is scant evidence that it will go to zero because some people clearly want to own it. 
LOTS of people's crypto investments have gone to zero, because it is so easy to steal and because many of the unregulated "services" like wallets and exchanges probably engage in self-hacking insider jobs. Remember when FTX was recommended as one of the legit services?

The quoted price can keep going up, even as many people lose their entire investments. That's a key difference in how we think about mainstream investments as opposed to crypto. When's the last time you had a bond, or a share of stock, stolen from your portfolio at Fidelity, Schwab, or Vanguard? That kind of thing happens all the time in crypto-world, and essentially sustains crypto-world.