Author Topic: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation  (Read 347666 times)

Scandium

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1900 on: November 29, 2023, 09:04:02 AM »
Which major banks have been fined for money laundering?

Or heck, what smaller banks/credit unions?

I'm not saying I don't believe it, but I just don't follow these things so I'm curious. Seems like there at least should be lots of banks without money laundering problems available to hold my money given how many there are.

-W

But why should we care? If a bank steals customer's money that's certainly an issue. But if they don't follow the myriad of cryptic, broad, and overbearing regulations, for money laundering in this case, that doesn't affect me or my money. So... whatever?

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1901 on: November 29, 2023, 09:27:27 AM »
Generally I prefer not to be associated with criminal activity, even indirectly, so I'd prefer not to do business with a bank that launders money for drug traffickers or something.

But that's just me, I guess.

-W

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1902 on: November 29, 2023, 12:11:50 PM »
Generally I prefer not to be associated with criminal activity, even indirectly, so I'd prefer not to do business with a bank that launders money for drug traffickers or something.

But that's just me, I guess.

-W

It's an admirable stance but how do you manage this in practice ?
Did you Google "your bank/broker/pensionCo" + fraud laundering fines, etc. before opening your accounts ? Or, this Violation Tracker looks like a pretty good resource.
Do you regularly check and will you jump ship if any get fined for any misdemeanours ?
Serious questions as I've never heard of anyone doing this - it seems a bit idealistic and impractical.

Scrupulously clean financial institutions seem to be a rarity. Sadly, the 4x different UK institutions I use for my SIPP, my ISA, my main bank accounts and my back-up credit card all appear in these lists below = 100% fail.

Does MMM need to update his recommendations ?
   Vanguard Violations
   Fidelity Violations
   Betterment Violations

Top 20 FCA fines:
   Barclays Bank plc - £284m fine (2015)
   National Westminster Bank Plc - £264.7m fine (2021)
   UBS AG - £233.8m fine (2014)
   Deutsche Bank fined - £226.8m fine (2015)
   Citibank NA - £225.6m fine (2014)
   JPMorgan Chase Bank - £222.1m fine (2014)
   The Royal Bank of Scotland - £217m fine (2014)
   HSBC Bank plc - £216.4m fine (2014)
   Deutsche Bank AG - £163m fine (2017)
   Credit Suisse - £147.2m fine (2021)
   JPMorgan Chase Bank NA - £137.6m fine (2013)
   The Bank of New York Mellon London Branch & Intl Ltd. - £126m fine (2015)
   Lloyd's Banking Group - £117.4m fine (2015)
   Santander UK plc - £107.8m (2022)
   Lloyd's Banking Group - £105m fine (2014)
   Rabobank - £105m fine (2013)
   Standard Chartered Bank - £102m fine (2019)
   Goldman Sachs International - £97m fine (2020)
   Lloyd's Bank General Insurance - £90.7m (2021)
   The Royal Bank of Scotland plc - £87.5m fine (2013)

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1903 on: November 29, 2023, 12:18:49 PM »
Fines being issued and people going to jail are signs of a system that is taking care of its corruption and illegal activities problems.

A lack of enforcement actions indicate an unregulated space. E.g. countries that never seem to convict politicians of corruption are 100% corrupt and markets where there are no enforcement actions are unregulated spaces filled with scams.

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1904 on: November 29, 2023, 12:29:21 PM »
Looks like Vanguard was fined $23k for something in Pennsylvania involving consumer protection in 2017. Then there are 2 employment discrimination cases that appear to have been settled in 2010 and 2008.

I'd say that falls far short of money laundering, personally, and given the size of Vanguard, it's a stellar track record.

I have minimal cash, and it's at a credit union locally. I guess maybe they could be funding meth labs or something, but I doubt it.

-W

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1905 on: November 29, 2023, 12:33:59 PM »
Looks like Vanguard was fined $23k for something in Pennsylvania involving consumer protection in 2017. Then there are 2 employment discrimination cases that appear to have been settled in 2010 and 2008.

I'd say that falls far short of money laundering, personally, and given the size of Vanguard, it's a stellar track record.

I have minimal cash, and it's at a credit union locally. I guess maybe they could be funding meth labs or something, but I doubt it.

-W

At least it would be locally sourced, organic meth though.  I hate it when big meth companies come in and push out all the small time artisanal cooks.

waltworks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1906 on: November 29, 2023, 12:40:34 PM »
Lab to table, man. That Chinese meth is just not the same.

-W

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1907 on: November 29, 2023, 01:47:45 PM »
Looks like Vanguard was fined $23k for something in Pennsylvania involving consumer protection in 2017. Then there are 2 employment discrimination cases that appear to have been settled in 2010 and 2008.

I'd say that falls far short of money laundering, personally, and given the size of Vanguard, it's a stellar track record.

I have minimal cash, and it's at a credit union locally. I guess maybe they could be funding meth labs or something, but I doubt it.

-W

Maybe that source isn't so good. I hadn't noticed that it missed this incident from 2023:
FINRA, Wall Street's self-regulatory organization, said in a filing signed last month by representatives of both parties that Vanguard overstated projected yield and projected annual income for nine money market funds from November 2019 to September 2020. It ordered Vanguard to pay a fine of $800,000.

And note, for about the 3rd time, that Coinbase was not fined for money laundering. They were fined because their procedures for protecting against money laundering (by customers) were inadequate. That's a very different thing - and it seems less corrupt than overselling your products in 8.5M customer statements.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1908 on: November 29, 2023, 02:02:27 PM »
Fines being issued and people going to jail are signs of a system that is taking care of its corruption and illegal activities problems.

A lack of enforcement actions indicate an unregulated space. E.g. countries that never seem to convict politicians of corruption are 100% corrupt and markets where there are no enforcement actions are unregulated spaces filled with scams.

Fines being issued and people going to jail are also signs of fraud and corruption within that system. It is perfectly clear that most significant financial institutions have some fraudulent, corrupt and sometimes just careless things going on.

Holding Coinbase up as a terrible villain because they were fined, while making excuses for similar fines against most conventional financial institutions is completely ridiculous. And, I say this as no fan of Coinbase, nor Binance, nor FTX, nor any other multi-crypto exchange.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 02:04:57 PM by LateStarter »

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1909 on: November 29, 2023, 02:37:11 PM »
Fines being issued and people going to jail are signs of a system that is taking care of its corruption and illegal activities problems.

A lack of enforcement actions indicate an unregulated space. E.g. countries that never seem to convict politicians of corruption are 100% corrupt and markets where there are no enforcement actions are unregulated spaces filled with scams.

Fines being issued and people going to jail are also signs of fraud and corruption within that system. It is perfectly clear that most significant financial institutions have some fraudulent, corrupt and sometimes just careless things going on.

Holding Coinbase up as a terrible villain because they were fined, while making excuses for similar fines against most conventional financial institutions is completely ridiculous. And, I say this as no fan of Coinbase, nor Binance, nor FTX, nor any other multi-crypto exchange.
Maybe so, but the cost of running a crypto exchange to the same standards as a heavily regulated U.S. bank would seemingly add an astronomical amount of cost. Those costs of compliance would have to be borne by customers, and now we loop back to the question of whether crypto is better than fiat.

In the grand currency vs. securities debate, this is the risk of the currency side. Crypto as a currency requires banks with all the overhead costs, reserve requirements, FDIC inspections, and disclosures. 

I don't foresee regular people using crypto without a "helper" organization like a bank any more than I see regular people trading stocks without a broker and recording peer to peer transfers of shares directly at the clearing houses. It just won't happen. It's too technical. If cryptocoins are a currency, then governments will ban, block, or seize any unregulated "bank".

maizefolk

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1910 on: November 29, 2023, 03:29:00 PM »
Maybe so, but the cost of running a crypto exchange to the same standards as a heavily regulated U.S. bank would seemingly add an astronomical amount of cost. Those costs of compliance would have to be borne by customers, and now we loop back to the question of whether crypto is better than fiat.

Indeed it does add a great deal to the costs, which is why transaction fees at CoinBase are so much higher than many non-US based exchanges.

But here we loop back to your original question of whether there is any mainstream and law abiding firms that allow users to transact in cryptocurrency.

The answer is yes. The services they offer cost more than folks flying by the seat of their pants and incorporated in overseas tax havens. The companies offering the service don't do super flashy things that make headlines as much as Binance or FTX did, but they are out there, doing as good a job as most major banks of following applicable laws.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1911 on: November 29, 2023, 04:27:45 PM »
Fines being issued and people going to jail are signs of a system that is taking care of its corruption and illegal activities problems.

A lack of enforcement actions indicate an unregulated space. E.g. countries that never seem to convict politicians of corruption are 100% corrupt and markets where there are no enforcement actions are unregulated spaces filled with scams.

Fines being issued and people going to jail are also signs of fraud and corruption within that system. It is perfectly clear that most significant financial institutions have some fraudulent, corrupt and sometimes just careless things going on.

Holding Coinbase up as a terrible villain because they were fined, while making excuses for similar fines against most conventional financial institutions is completely ridiculous. And, I say this as no fan of Coinbase, nor Binance, nor FTX, nor any other multi-crypto exchange.
Maybe so, but the cost of running a crypto exchange to the same standards as a heavily regulated U.S. bank would seemingly add an astronomical amount of cost. Those costs of compliance would have to be borne by customers, and now we loop back to the question of whether crypto is better than fiat.

Yeah, probably [shrug] - I'm just not all that interested in these multi-crypto exchanges, so don't have much of an opinion.

In the grand currency vs. securities debate, this is the risk of the currency side. Crypto as a currency requires banks with all the overhead costs, reserve requirements, FDIC inspections, and disclosures. 

I don't foresee regular people using crypto without a "helper" organization like a bank any more than I see regular people trading stocks without a broker and recording peer to peer transfers of shares directly at the clearing houses. It just won't happen. It's too technical. If cryptocoins are a currency, then governments will ban, block, or seize any unregulated "bank".

Bitcoin is a good enough SoV 'bank' for me right now. Bitcoin 'as a currency' like that looks like Legal Tender, and I think we're a loooong way from that in our regions.

I don't foresee regular people trading stocks without telephoning their suited-up bowler-hatted high-fee stockbroker, it's just too technical - said my Dad. Don't underestimate tomorrow's technology.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1912 on: November 29, 2023, 11:33:04 PM »
The issue of quantum computing has a lot less to do with mining and a lot more to do with the potential to crack the private keys of many bitcoin wallets given knowledge of their public keys.
Mining, private keys, bank security and government secrets all involve cryptography that - in theory - quantum computing could crack.  In practice, it has been stuck in research labs for 25 years.

That seems like a weak argument.

The first perceptrons (artificial neural networks) were created in 1958. As recently as 2014, just getting a computer to figure out if a bird was in a picture or not was extremely difficult if not impossible.

So I'm sure that in the ten years after 2014, neural net basted artificial intelligence won't change the way we live in any noticeable way. After all, at this point it has been stuck in research labs for 56 years.

Note: This isn't an argument that quantum computers will change the way we live dramatically. It is an argument that given technology being stuck in research labs for decades isn't convincing evidence to conclude the technology won't change the way we will dramatically.
You quoted me talking only about quantum computers and then said nothing about quantum computers.  Machine learning is not quantum computing.

Experts on quantum computing:
https://quantumzeitgeist.com/20-influential-individuals-driving-the-quantum-technology-revolution/

First expert in that list (Robert "Bob" Sutor) talking about quantum computing one month ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwAHhy52jY
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 11:38:55 PM by MustacheAndaHalf »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1913 on: November 29, 2023, 11:52:56 PM »
Coinbase and Gemini are large U.S. based exchanges.  These exchanges have two levels of fees, based on using a simple or advanced interface.

Someone who just wants to buy X amount of crypto can use a simple interface, and get charged 1.49% at Gemini.  I had trouble locating Coinbase's current web fees.
https://www.gemini.com/fees/web-fee-schedule

Or they can use an advanced interface that looks like a stock market.  If they want a trade immediately, they are a "taker" of an existing order, and pay the higher fee.  If they patiently add an order that is not immediately traded, they are a "maker" of a new order, and pay a lower fee when it finds a buyer/seller.

https://www.gemini.com/fees/activetrader-fee-schedule
https://exchange.coinbase.com/fees

TL;DR - trade crypto paying 1.5% for simple, 0.4% when impatient and 0.2% if patient.

maizefolk

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1914 on: November 30, 2023, 05:59:11 AM »
You quoted me talking only about quantum computers and then said nothing about quantum computers.

I quoted you dismissing a technology as having been stuck in the research lab for 25 years and pointed out that other technologies that are changing our world in big ways today had been stuck in research labs for even longer.

Edit: Note that this doesn't mean quantum computing will change our world in a big way in the future. It only illustrates that your statement that it has been stuck in research labs for 25 years isn't useful evidence to support the claim that quantum computing won't change our world in the future.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2023, 06:16:20 AM by maizefolk »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1915 on: December 01, 2023, 12:25:04 AM »
You quoted me talking only about quantum computers and then said nothing about quantum computers.

I quoted you dismissing a technology as having been stuck in the research lab for 25 years and pointed out that other technologies that are changing our world in big ways today had been stuck in research labs for even longer.

Edit: Note that this doesn't mean quantum computing will change our world in a big way in the future. It only illustrates that your statement that it has been stuck in research labs for 25 years isn't useful evidence to support the claim that quantum computing won't change our world in the future.
Are you claiming that machine learning came solely from perceptrons, and not from the development of computers?  I could claim pocket calculators come from the abacus, and took 2,000 years to develop, using the same misplaced origin.  In reality, ChatGPT was too expensive to create 10 years ago, but unrelated demand for computing brought down costs until ChatGPT became a practical reality.  Computing power and cost was the bottleneck, not perceptrons.

Quantum computers are based on creating and using quantum states before the whole thing collapses.  Quantum computing can't simply wait for greater computing power, and then suddenly crack Blockchain addresses.  Every missing piece, from qubits to software to networks, needs to be researched, developed and improved.  Quantum computing has been 2-3 years from a breakthrough for over a decade.  The other poster, who warned of Bitcoin being at risk of hacking by quantum computing, is relying on hype rather than expert opinion.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1916 on: December 01, 2023, 08:45:58 AM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.) The use of AI and traditional supercomputers to aid in the design of quantum computers is another unknown variable. And besides quantum computers there are other 'orders of magnitude' advances being researched in traditional computing such as the emulation of biological neural networks.

Will bitcoin as implemented be useful for the generational transfer of wealth? I think it is something for long-horizon bitcoiners to consider. I am sure there are many people who have no idea there could be such future risks. If a first supercomputer hack occurs, it will be such big news. We would see a drop faster than that FTT token, I would think.

Most crypto related anomalies like "Bitcoin Sender Struck With $3.1M Transaction Fee"; are related to the exchanges or simply due to various very unforgiving operator error.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1917 on: December 01, 2023, 12:44:58 PM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.) The use of AI and traditional supercomputers to aid in the design of quantum computers is another unknown variable. And besides quantum computers there are other 'orders of magnitude' advances being researched in traditional computing such as the emulation of biological neural networks.

Will bitcoin as implemented be useful for the generational transfer of wealth? I think it is something for long-horizon bitcoiners to consider. I am sure there are many people who have no idea there could be such future risks. If a first supercomputer hack occurs, it will be such big news. We would see a drop faster than that FTT token, I would think.

As discussed earlier, any supercomputer capable of breaking Bitcoin is capable of breaking just about anything and everything. A bad actor could wreak havoc right across the board. However, the chance of a fully-formed Bitcoin/everything breaker suddenly plugging in without warning seems remote in the greatest extreme. Bitcoin Miners and Bitcoin people in general have great interest in any and all technolgical developments that might affect Bitcoin. If just one Bitcoiner, or even just one person with a conscience, got to hear about it . . .

I'm as concerned about this scenario as I am concerned about NKorea suddenly, out of the blue, launching a new weapon that's so far advanced that the rest of the world is defenceless against it. It's theoretically possible, but . . .

Most crypto related anomalies like "Bitcoin Sender Struck With $3.1M Transaction Fee"; are related to the exchanges or simply due to various very unforgiving operator error.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1918 on: December 01, 2023, 02:21:17 PM »
The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.

We didn't create physical reality and time, so we're stuck with 'em.  Sure.

But if your life is on the line every single time you cross the road, there's a pretty big fucking problem that needs to be fixed.  This can be handled with traffic laws, legal enforcement, better vehicle regulation, better road design, better driver education, signs and on road devices.  Road deaths are acknowledged to be an issue though.

We fucking designed Bitcoin.  So why aren't we fixing this obvious problem?

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1919 on: December 01, 2023, 03:42:59 PM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.) The use of AI and traditional supercomputers to aid in the design of quantum computers is another unknown variable. And besides quantum computers there are other 'orders of magnitude' advances being researched in traditional computing such as the emulation of biological neural networks.

Will bitcoin as implemented be useful for the generational transfer of wealth? I think it is something for long-horizon bitcoiners to consider. I am sure there are many people who have no idea there could be such future risks. If a first supercomputer hack occurs, it will be such big news. We would see a drop faster than that FTT token, I would think.

As discussed earlier, any supercomputer capable of breaking Bitcoin is capable of breaking just about anything and everything. A bad actor could wreak havoc right across the board. However, the chance of a fully-formed Bitcoin/everything breaker suddenly plugging in without warning seems remote in the greatest extreme. Bitcoin Miners and Bitcoin people in general have great interest in any and all technolgical developments that might affect Bitcoin. If just one Bitcoiner, or even just one person with a conscience, got to hear about it . . .

I'm as concerned about this scenario as I am concerned about NKorea suddenly, out of the blue, launching a new weapon that's so far advanced that the rest of the world is defenceless against it. It's theoretically possible, but . . .

Most crypto related anomalies like "Bitcoin Sender Struck With $3.1M Transaction Fee"; are related to the exchanges or simply due to various very unforgiving operator error.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.
I've thought about the super-fast encryption breaker problem too, because some outcomes might put an expiration date on our entire financial system.

The simple solution for username/password or username/biometric logins (i.e bank or brokerage accounts) is to have a time delay for each username's subsequent password attempt. A ten or twenty second delay, or a delay that gets longer with each incorrect password attempt, can extend the time it takes a brute force attack to locate a password to many years of trying random combinations.

This simple method is immune to the increasing speed of the hacker's equipment. However an AI information skimmer could do better by generating a few million potential passwords out of your personal information revealed online - year of birth, favorite things, favorite authors or characters, school mascot, sayings, word patterns, old passwords obtained from previous hacks, etc, thus generating a smaller solution set and guessing many password within a few months of trying, even with the time delays. An AI could also screen out possible passphrases that are not pronounceable, dramatically limiting the solution set.

With biometrics, there could be genetic patterns that could be assumed from information revealed online that reduce the solution set. An AI might find all sorts of patterns to make itself a better password cracker - patterns our sciences have never discovered. Maybe blue eyed people with type AB blood never have a certain pattern in their retinas?

So account-level time delays are a useful way to keep brute force hackers out of individual accounts, but they don't stop the hacker from trying a new username with each password combination in an attempt to breach any one account in the system. In large systems with potentially billions of users, the odds increase for the cracking program to randomly luck into at least one correct username/password combination, even if the odds are astronomical. The defender cannot set the whole system to time delay with each wrong password guess or else it could be locked up by anyone and thus would always be locked. If nothing comes up on the first attempt of a billion unique usernames plus a billion possible passwords, the hacker can roll again after the 10-20 second delay has passed, and so on. Even with an escalating time delay, the hacker has a reasonable chance of getting into somebody's account because they can throw very large numbers at very steep odds. Being that somebody or reimbursing that somebody may be a cost of doing business.

At its core, the problem is our authentication data must be small enough to be convenient. The size of "convenient" means memorable in a human brain (containing dozens of other passwords) or portable as part of a human body (but then unchangeable if breached). The size of "convenient" doesn't change much, but the capabilities of brute force or AI-led password guessing attempts are constantly increasing. In theory, this dynamic leads to a crossover point where hacking capabilities exceed the possible security level of any convenient form of authentication data.

At that time we would no longer have a reliable way to trade in electronic formats, which could mean worldwide economic collapse if it happened fast enough. There is no guarantee offensive tech won't evolve faster than defensive tech, or the rules of our slow-moving economic systems.

Time delays could still be part of the answer, but at some point the brute force or AI-led attacks come so constantly that all user accounts are always at the maximum time delay. The maximum time delay can only be as high as a user is willing to tolerate. 20-30 seconds perhaps? One minute to make a sale?

Another possible solution is three-factor: username + passphrase + biometric, for example. I don't see this as a good solution because it's even less convenient and more costly than a time delay, and because it is essentially an extended password, which only kicks the can down the road. Plus the biometric element can never be changed, even if compromised. If we assume our data will eventually be compromised - as passwords currently are, then the biometric part is a false security blanket.

We could end up living in a world where we all carry around physical tokens containing authentication chains dozens of petabytes in size just to access each time-delayed account. Losing such a device might mean losing your money, unless some meatspace identity verification procedure was applied. Such a system would be far less efficient than our current world of 12-character-passwords-by-email. Yet it would get around the "convenient size" limitation and allow electronic commerce to continue despite quantum computing and ubiquitous AIs with near-infinite cryptographic cracking power.

We're currently using layers of cryptographic scrambling on as many of these elements as possible to prevent in-transit interception, but cryptography is essentially a problem of processing speeds and intelligence, and we can't hide behind these fast-falling barriers forever.

Cryptocurrencies deserve credit as an initial attempt to address this looming issue, but the method of hiding keys behind usernames, passwords, and website businesses built by shady characters in legal gray areas has been a disaster for so many people who have had their accounts and wallets hacked. If anything, all the false security of cryptocurrency only made it easier to steal. I bet there are technical lessons to be learned beneath the FOMO-throwing-money-at-obvious-frauds layer.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1920 on: December 01, 2023, 05:44:21 PM »
The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.

We didn't create physical reality and time, so we're stuck with 'em.  Sure.

But if your life is on the line every single time you cross the road, there's a pretty big fucking problem that needs to be fixed.  This can be handled with traffic laws, legal enforcement, better vehicle regulation, better road design, better driver education, signs and on road devices.  Road deaths are acknowledged to be an issue though.

We fucking designed Bitcoin.  So why aren't we fixing this obvious problem?

What problem ? The problem of living in reality where cause-->effect ? Your life is on the line with every breath and every heart beat - never mind crossing the damned road. It's a fundamental matter of principle, not a problem that can be fixed.

I'm in favour of traffic laws, good roads, etc. They're all good ideas and can reduce the risks.
I'm in favour of the technologies making Bitcoin more user-friendly, etc. for the same reasons.
However, reality remains the final arbiter. Your actions are final and have consequences, and time is uni-directional.
If you get hit by a car, you got hit by a car. No ifs or buts - it's done and it can't be undone.
If you pay me Bitcoin, the Bitcoin is mine. No ifs or buts - it's done and it can't be undone.

There is a partial solution if you want one. It's called Virtual Reality, like Frogger, where you can die crossing the road and come back to life and have another go. Most of us find these worlds unsatisfying though - ironically, because everything is inconsequential/pointless.
Similarly, you can use your fiat bank (for Visa, bank transfers, online payments, etc.) which is it's own Virtual Reality where physical laws don't count. What counts is banking rules and the authorisation decisions of powerful banker overseers. This can be seen as a comforting safety net but it comes at multiple costs, eg. these trusted overseers demand to be paid handsomely, can make mistakes, have conflicts-of-interests, can take liberties, etc.
The overseers are the final arbiter. Your actions are not final, they must be authorised and may be denied or reversed, etc.
If your Frog gets hit by a car, never mind - have another go. Forget it ever happened, maybe you were jostled so it shouldn't count anyway . . . or maybe . . .
If you transfer some $ to me, they might appear in my account - only to disappear again. Maybe an overseer says you broke some rule, maybe an overseer says I broke some rule, or maybe . . .

When it comes to crossing the road, I choose reality, immutability - and I accept the consequences of my actions, including those of my mistakes. Similarly, I like the idea of reality, immutability for my money.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1921 on: December 01, 2023, 07:42:29 PM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.) The use of AI and traditional supercomputers to aid in the design of quantum computers is another unknown variable. And besides quantum computers there are other 'orders of magnitude' advances being researched in traditional computing such as the emulation of biological neural networks.

Will bitcoin as implemented be useful for the generational transfer of wealth? I think it is something for long-horizon bitcoiners to consider. I am sure there are many people who have no idea there could be such future risks. If a first supercomputer hack occurs, it will be such big news. We would see a drop faster than that FTT token, I would think.

As discussed earlier, any supercomputer capable of breaking Bitcoin is capable of breaking just about anything and everything. A bad actor could wreak havoc right across the board. However, the chance of a fully-formed Bitcoin/everything breaker suddenly plugging in without warning seems remote in the greatest extreme. Bitcoin Miners and Bitcoin people in general have great interest in any and all technolgical developments that might affect Bitcoin. If just one Bitcoiner, or even just one person with a conscience, got to hear about it . . .

I'm as concerned about this scenario as I am concerned about NKorea suddenly, out of the blue, launching a new weapon that's so far advanced that the rest of the world is defenceless against it. It's theoretically possible, but . . .

Most crypto related anomalies like "Bitcoin Sender Struck With $3.1M Transaction Fee"; are related to the exchanges or simply due to various very unforgiving operator error.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.
I've thought about the super-fast encryption breaker problem too, because some outcomes might put an expiration date on our entire financial system.

The simple solution for username/password or username/biometric logins (i.e bank or brokerage accounts) is to have a time delay for each username's subsequent password attempt. A ten or twenty second delay, or a delay that gets longer with each incorrect password attempt, can extend the time it takes a brute force attack to locate a password to many years of trying random combinations.

This simple method is immune to the increasing speed of the hacker's equipment. However an AI information skimmer could do better by generating a few million potential passwords out of your personal information revealed online - year of birth, favorite things, favorite authors or characters, school mascot, sayings, word patterns, old passwords obtained from previous hacks, etc, thus generating a smaller solution set and guessing many password within a few months of trying, even with the time delays. An AI could also screen out possible passphrases that are not pronounceable, dramatically limiting the solution set.

With biometrics, there could be genetic patterns that could be assumed from information revealed online that reduce the solution set. An AI might find all sorts of patterns to make itself a better password cracker - patterns our sciences have never discovered. Maybe blue eyed people with type AB blood never have a certain pattern in their retinas?

So account-level time delays are a useful way to keep brute force hackers out of individual accounts, but they don't stop the hacker from trying a new username with each password combination in an attempt to breach any one account in the system. In large systems with potentially billions of users, the odds increase for the cracking program to randomly luck into at least one correct username/password combination, even if the odds are astronomical. The defender cannot set the whole system to time delay with each wrong password guess or else it could be locked up by anyone and thus would always be locked. If nothing comes up on the first attempt of a billion unique usernames plus a billion possible passwords, the hacker can roll again after the 10-20 second delay has passed, and so on. Even with an escalating time delay, the hacker has a reasonable chance of getting into somebody's account because they can throw very large numbers at very steep odds. Being that somebody or reimbursing that somebody may be a cost of doing business.

At its core, the problem is our authentication data must be small enough to be convenient. The size of "convenient" means memorable in a human brain (containing dozens of other passwords) or portable as part of a human body (but then unchangeable if breached). The size of "convenient" doesn't change much, but the capabilities of brute force or AI-led password guessing attempts are constantly increasing. In theory, this dynamic leads to a crossover point where hacking capabilities exceed the possible security level of any convenient form of authentication data.

At that time we would no longer have a reliable way to trade in electronic formats, which could mean worldwide economic collapse if it happened fast enough. There is no guarantee offensive tech won't evolve faster than defensive tech, or the rules of our slow-moving economic systems.

Time delays could still be part of the answer, but at some point the brute force or AI-led attacks come so constantly that all user accounts are always at the maximum time delay. The maximum time delay can only be as high as a user is willing to tolerate. 20-30 seconds perhaps? One minute to make a sale?

Another possible solution is three-factor: username + passphrase + biometric, for example. I don't see this as a good solution because it's even less convenient and more costly than a time delay, and because it is essentially an extended password, which only kicks the can down the road. Plus the biometric element can never be changed, even if compromised. If we assume our data will eventually be compromised - as passwords currently are, then the biometric part is a false security blanket.

We could end up living in a world where we all carry around physical tokens containing authentication chains dozens of petabytes in size just to access each time-delayed account. Losing such a device might mean losing your money, unless some meatspace identity verification procedure was applied. Such a system would be far less efficient than our current world of 12-character-passwords-by-email. Yet it would get around the "convenient size" limitation and allow electronic commerce to continue despite quantum computing and ubiquitous AIs with near-infinite cryptographic cracking power.

We're currently using layers of cryptographic scrambling on as many of these elements as possible to prevent in-transit interception, but cryptography is essentially a problem of processing speeds and intelligence, and we can't hide behind these fast-falling barriers forever.

Cryptocurrencies deserve credit as an initial attempt to address this looming issue, but the method of hiding keys behind usernames, passwords, and website businesses built by shady characters in legal gray areas has been a disaster for so many people who have had their accounts and wallets hacked. If anything, all the false security of cryptocurrency only made it easier to steal. I bet there are technical lessons to be learned beneath the FOMO-throwing-money-at-obvious-frauds layer.

Arms races are as old as life itself.
If Quantum Computers can be used to launch a significant attack, it seems likely that Quantum Computers can also be used to mount a significant defence.
AI seems like a different, less predictable, animal. Who knows where that will lead us ?

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1922 on: December 02, 2023, 01:17:00 AM »
One can visit this page to see the cloud-based quantum computing resources available now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud-based_quantum_computing

I would say there have been breakthroughs already and as with any new technology, it is very hard to determine its future usefulness and developmental timeframe this early on (especially if you believe some of the claims about computational power.)
You listed no breakthroughs, just that you "would say" they exist.  My comment on "2-3 years from a breakthrough" is quantum computing expert Robert Sutor criticizing the hype around quantum computing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYwAHhy52jY

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1923 on: December 02, 2023, 02:24:40 AM »
If/when quantum computing gets close to breaking cryptography, that would be a risk to both Bitcoin addresses and the blockchain.  Most cryptography assumes factoring large integers takes far longer than Shor's Algorithm, which is a quantum computing approach to factoring.  Searching for Shor's Algorithm brings up research papers with the numbers 15 and 21 being factored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shor%27s_algorithm

Hybrid algorithms use conventional computers to pre-compute a starting point, which lets them use 3 qubits.

Quote
For example, the factorization of 1,099,551,473,989 relied on classical pre-processing to reduce the problem to a three-qubit quantum circuit.  Furthermore, the three numbers factored in this paper (200,099, 291,311, and 1,099,551,473,989) can easily be factored using Fermat's factorization method, requiring only 3, 1, and 1 iterations of the loop respectively.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_factorization_records#Records_for_efforts_by_quantum_computers

I interpret this to mean factoring using quantum computing is stuck at using a handful of qubits.  A year ago IBM rolled out a 433 qubit computer, and a month ago Atom Computer announced a 1000 qubit computer.  Why is the capacity of the latest quantum computers a hundred times greater than the number of qubits used to research factoring?

https://newsroom.ibm.com/2022-11-09-IBM-Unveils-400-Qubit-Plus-Quantum-Processor-and-Next-Generation-IBM-Quantum-System-Two
https://atom-computing.com/quantum-startup-atom-computing-first-to-exceed-1000-qubits/

crimp

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1924 on: December 02, 2023, 11:03:08 AM »
I’m not a quantum expert, but the following is my understanding of the distinction.

Quantum annealing machines can’t (efficiently) run Shor’s algorithm. The annealing machines have higher number of qubits but are designed to solve certain kinds of optimization problems.

 Universal quantum computers are harder to scale, require advanced refrigeration, and need lots of error correction. For every logical qubit you can reliably use to compute you need several additional physical qubits to correct errors. The  433 and 1000 figures are likely physical qubits, not logical qubits.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 11:06:43 AM by crimp »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1925 on: December 02, 2023, 10:31:57 PM »
Error correction is a much bigger challenge than I realized.  There's 7-qubit-code error correction that divides the number of physical qubits by 7, resulting in logical qubits with tolerable error rates (results are still probabilities).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_error_correction#Models

Quantum computers factoring numbers have have 3 logical qubits, but behind the scenes run on a 21 qubit computer (each group of 7 forming one usable qubit).  This also means I need to be careful which articles I read, as non-experts will confuse needing 3 logical qubits with needing 3 physical qubits (as I initially did).

wantstoinvest

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1926 on: December 03, 2023, 11:20:52 AM »
Any one have any insight on why crypto has been rising in the lat few weeks? Does it change anyones opinion on having a crypto allocation?

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1927 on: December 03, 2023, 02:47:05 PM »
I've read other people claiming the price increase reflects anticipation of the SEC being forced to approve bitcoin ETFs which would (they say) unlock a lot more US consumer demand for purchasing bitcoin.

We're also about five months away from the next halving of the blockchain reward, which has historically been associated with a significant increase in the price of bitcoin as the supply of new bitcoin entering the market drops while demand presumably remains constant.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1928 on: December 03, 2023, 03:08:15 PM »
Any one have any insight on why crypto has been rising in the lat few weeks? Does it change anyones opinion on having a crypto allocation?

Some of Bitcoin's rise is probably due to an inrush of Mustachian purchases resulting from my persuasive arguments here.

Also, the seemingly imminent Spot ETFs expected to bring institutional money in + a general legitimisation/normalisation of Bitcoin.

Also, anticipation of the next halving around April 2024.

Also, signs of more "monetary easing" creeping back in / on the horizon.

All bullish for Bitcoin.

As for the rest of crypto ? Mostly riding coat-tails imo, but I don't really know . . . (and don't much care either).

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1929 on: December 03, 2023, 10:23:21 PM »
I've read other people claiming the price increase reflects anticipation of the SEC being forced to approve bitcoin ETFs which would (they say) unlock a lot more US consumer demand for purchasing bitcoin.
The price of BTC-USD spiked on Oct 23, 2023.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/

Also on Oct 23, 2023 :
Quote
The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals closed the books on a dispute between the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and Grayscale, with a final ruling that effectively orders the agency to scrap its rejection of the asset manager's spot bitcoin ETF application.
https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2023/10/23/grayscale-court-victory-over-sec-in-spot-bitcoin-etf-case-made-final/

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1930 on: December 04, 2023, 12:35:01 AM »
Bitcoin following gold up IMO aswell as anticipation of the ETFs and the halving.  The market is looking for harder assets as it begins to realise that the USA is basically insolvent, the national debt is now rising exponentially and the only choice soon will be to print its way into oblivion.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1931 on: December 04, 2023, 12:11:53 PM »
Bitcoin's market cap rose $75 billion in anticipation of a spot Bitcoin ETF.  I doubt there's $75B of new demand from institutional investors - they can already buy Bitcoin without the ETF.  Combine that with my thesis for a ceiling on market gains, and I think Bitcoin's +38% gains since Oct 20th are excessive.

I've opened a small short position in shares of $MSTR (currently $560/sh), which move closely with the price of Bitcoin.  Does anyone else have negative exposure to Bitcoin?

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1932 on: December 04, 2023, 02:12:14 PM »
Bitcoin following gold up IMO aswell as anticipation of the ETFs and the halving.  The market is looking for harder assets as it begins to realise that the USA is basically insolvent, the national debt is now rising exponentially and the only choice soon will be to print its way into oblivion.
1) Why would halving - the Bitcoin equivalent of a large interest rate cut - increase the value of Bitcoin? Is new supply really that big a part of the daily float, and is that supply expected to actually drop?

2) The U.S. National Debt as a percentage of GDP has been flat-to-down since 2021. Since the USA is clearly not insolvent and the national debt is clearly not rising exponentially in inflation-adjusted terms, isn't that a negative for Bitcoin?

Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1933 on: December 04, 2023, 08:44:49 PM »
Bitcoin following gold up IMO aswell as anticipation of the ETFs and the halving.  The market is looking for harder assets as it begins to realise that the USA is basically insolvent, the national debt is now rising exponentially and the only choice soon will be to print its way into oblivion.
1) Why would halving - the Bitcoin equivalent of a large interest rate cut - increase the value of Bitcoin? Is new supply really that big a part of the daily float, and is that supply expected to actually drop?[/img]

Ok i'll try and break it down for you.  The vast majority of Bitcoin is locked away in cold wallets by long term holders, it doesn't move.  Also that percentage of bitcoin that is held by long term holders is continually increasing.  Bitcoin is traded on the margins on exchanges, there is only a small percentage of 'liquid' supply that is not owned by long term holders.  You have your regular buyers and your regular sellers and together on the exchange supply vs demand they determine the price.

After the halving, miners are suddently selling half as much, HODLers are buying just as much as always or more as many are anticipating the price to rise. This throws out the delicate balance between supply and demand and Bitcoin for sale quickly dries up on exchanges = supply shock. The only thing that can give is price. Price goes up.  You only need to look at bitcoins long term charts and you can clearly see the effects of the 4 year halving cycle on bitcoins price.


Juan Ponce de León

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1934 on: December 04, 2023, 08:56:28 PM »
Bitcoin following gold up IMO aswell as anticipation of the ETFs and the halving.  The market is looking for harder assets as it begins to realise that the USA is basically insolvent, the national debt is now rising exponentially and the only choice soon will be to print its way into oblivion.
2) The U.S. National Debt as a percentage of GDP has been flat-to-down since 2021. Since the USA is clearly not insolvent and the national debt is clearly not rising exponentially in inflation-adjusted terms, isn't that a negative for Bitcoin?


That's one way to look at it.  Another way to look at it is debt interest payments as a percentage of the budget and debt interest payments as a percentage of tax revenue.

America are now inbetween a rock and a hard place where they have to keep interest rates high to keep a lid on inflation but they also cannot afford to pay the interest without printing more money which will drive inflation higher down the road.  The other problem is that nations like China and Saudi Arabia who used to buy a lot of this debt are now reluctant to buy it and reducing their positions.  If debt buyers don't line up to fund the deficits than the money printers switch on.



Keep in mind that Defense spending accounts for 12 percent of all federal spending and nearly half of discretionary spending, just to put it in perspective how huge the debt interest bill is becoming.

Good article here actually

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/17/ray-dalio-says-us-reaching-a-point-where-our-debt-problem-gets-even-worse.html#:~:text=Economy-,Ray%20Dalio%20says%20U.S.%20reaching%20an%20inflection%20point%20where,problem%20quickly%20gets%20even%20worse&text=Soaring%20U.S.%20government%20debt%20is,founder%20Ray%20Dalio%20said%20Friday.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 11:29:47 PM by Juan Ponce de León »

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1935 on: December 05, 2023, 01:16:22 AM »
The all-time high in cold BTC wallets has not been matched by an all-time high in the price of BTC, although it has risen +150% YTD.  Crypto exchange Bitfinex released this analysis on Nov 27 2023 :
Quote
An unprecedented 13.65 million Bitcoin, approximately 70 percent of the total circulating supply, has not been transacted or moved for over a year, a new
all-time high.
PDF https://blog.bitfinex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Bitfinex-Alpha-82.pdf

Many (most?) BTC trades avoid blockchain fees.  Crypto exchange Binance doesn't touch its 2.5% of all BTC when its customers trade Bitcoin.  They update internal records.  Same for Grayscale (3.3% of all BTC) when shares of $GBTC change hands.  These transactions are off the chain (!), which hides the volume from those analyzing cold wallets.

Yes, a large majority of BTC wallets are cold, but most trading of BTC doesn't involve wallets or on chain transactions.

GuitarStv

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1936 on: December 05, 2023, 07:36:00 AM »
The all-time high in cold BTC wallets has not been matched by an all-time high in the price of BTC, although it has risen +150% YTD.  Crypto exchange Bitfinex released this analysis on Nov 27 2023 :
Quote
An unprecedented 13.65 million Bitcoin, approximately 70 percent of the total circulating supply, has not been transacted or moved for over a year, a new
all-time high.
PDF https://blog.bitfinex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Bitfinex-Alpha-82.pdf

Many (most?) BTC trades avoid blockchain fees.  Crypto exchange Binance doesn't touch its 2.5% of all BTC when its customers trade Bitcoin.  They update internal records.  Same for Grayscale (3.3% of all BTC) when shares of $GBTC change hands.  These transactions are off the chain (!), which hides the volume from those analyzing cold wallets.

Yes, a large majority of BTC wallets are cold, but most trading of BTC doesn't involve wallets or on chain transactions.

Makes sense.  Blockchain is a shitty way to do transactions - on a day to day basis any security it provides is unimportant in comparison to the need to actually move bitcoin around so of course circumventing it would be a top priority for anyone interested in trading it.

ChpBstrd

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1937 on: December 05, 2023, 10:03:28 AM »
The all-time high in cold BTC wallets has not been matched by an all-time high in the price of BTC, although it has risen +150% YTD.  Crypto exchange Bitfinex released this analysis on Nov 27 2023 :
Quote
An unprecedented 13.65 million Bitcoin, approximately 70 percent of the total circulating supply, has not been transacted or moved for over a year, a new
all-time high.
PDF https://blog.bitfinex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Bitfinex-Alpha-82.pdf

Many (most?) BTC trades avoid blockchain fees.  Crypto exchange Binance doesn't touch its 2.5% of all BTC when its customers trade Bitcoin.  They update internal records.  Same for Grayscale (3.3% of all BTC) when shares of $GBTC change hands.  These transactions are off the chain (!), which hides the volume from those analyzing cold wallets.

Yes, a large majority of BTC wallets are cold, but most trading of BTC doesn't involve wallets or on chain transactions.
We are imagining all these Bitcoin sitting in cold wallets (e.g. solid state drives or USB sticks in people's safes) but what if a large percentage of them were lost over the years, as drives failed and got lost, as computers got wiped, as thieves stole stuff and never found the Bitcoin on them, as people died along with knowledge of their keys or passwords, as people simply forgot keys and passwords, etc?

The HODL'ed versus LOST ratio wouldn't really affect the day to day supply and demand or new mining, but it might affect the odds of Bitcoin ever being used for day-to-day transactions. If most of the "currency" is lost, then the supply is much lower than is assumed. That means the number of people holding Bitcoin is lower than it might appear, and the size of the market for Bitcoin is much smaller than we assume when we imagine everyone putting Bitcoin in cold storage for years.

If a high percentage of Bitcoin were lost - that's bullish because supply is lower than expected and >90% of Bitcoin that can exist (according to the current rules) has already been mined. I.e. The slowing trickle of newly mined supply is the only thing keeping Bitcoins available for sale. Yet it's also bearish because it means the fan club of HODL'ers is smaller than thought and cryptocurrency isn't as popular as it seems when one simply multiplies number of coins by price.

I am unaware of any way to distinguish whether a coin that didn't move for a year, or five years, is being cold stored or if it was lost, never to be found again. I.e. if it's on a thumb drive, are those Bitcoin in a safe and destined to be spent some day, or is it 30 feet deep in a landfill? I think this detail matters for an "asset" whose value is completely dependent upon a narrative of expanding public interest.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1938 on: December 05, 2023, 03:25:18 PM »
The all-time high in cold BTC wallets has not been matched by an all-time high in the price of BTC, although it has risen +150% YTD.  Crypto exchange Bitfinex released this analysis on Nov 27 2023 :
Quote
An unprecedented 13.65 million Bitcoin, approximately 70 percent of the total circulating supply, has not been transacted or moved for over a year, a new
all-time high.
PDF https://blog.bitfinex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Bitfinex-Alpha-82.pdf

Many (most?) BTC trades avoid blockchain fees.  Crypto exchange Binance doesn't touch its 2.5% of all BTC when its customers trade Bitcoin.  They update internal records.  Same for Grayscale (3.3% of all BTC) when shares of $GBTC change hands.  These transactions are off the chain (!), which hides the volume from those analyzing cold wallets.

Yes, a large majority of BTC wallets are cold, but most trading of BTC doesn't involve wallets or on chain transactions.

More Bitcoin in cold wallets is a positive sign - is it not ?  Fewer Bitcoin on exchanges = fewer Bitcoin at non-custodial risk and fewer Bitcoin being actively traded.
Maybe I'm missing something, but you seem to be arguing against points that nobody has made.

We are imagining all these Bitcoin sitting in cold wallets (e.g. solid state drives or USB sticks in people's safes) but what if a large percentage of them were lost over the years, as drives failed and got lost, as computers got wiped, as thieves stole stuff and never found the Bitcoin on them, as people died along with knowledge of their keys or passwords, as people simply forgot keys and passwords, etc?

The HODL'ed versus LOST ratio wouldn't really affect the day to day supply and demand or new mining, but it might affect the odds of Bitcoin ever being used for day-to-day transactions. If most of the "currency" is lost, then the supply is much lower than is assumed. That means the number of people holding Bitcoin is lower than it might appear, and the size of the market for Bitcoin is much smaller than we assume when we imagine everyone putting Bitcoin in cold storage for years.

If a high percentage of Bitcoin were lost - that's bullish because supply is lower than expected and >90% of Bitcoin that can exist (according to the current rules) has already been mined. I.e. The slowing trickle of newly mined supply is the only thing keeping Bitcoins available for sale. Yet it's also bearish because it means the fan club of HODL'ers is smaller than thought and cryptocurrency isn't as popular as it seems when one simply multiplies number of coins by price.

I am unaware of any way to distinguish whether a coin that didn't move for a year, or five years, is being cold stored or if it was lost, never to be found again. I.e. if it's on a thumb drive, are those Bitcoin in a safe and destined to be spent some day, or is it 30 feet deep in a landfill? I think this detail matters for an "asset" whose value is completely dependent upon a narrative of expanding public interest.

There are widely-publicised speculations that as many as 6M Bitcoin could be lost - it's common knowledge. Lost Bitcoin doesn't mean lost or reduced interest. The 'losers' still own the Bitcoin and it's safe to assume they still care about Bitcoin - they just can't access their lost Bitcoin. They are the ultimate HODLers - taking one for the team.

Complete non-issue = zero concern.

blue_green_sparks

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1939 on: December 05, 2023, 09:48:02 PM »
The 'losers' still own the Bitcoin and it's safe to assume they still care about Bitcoin - they just can't access their lost Bitcoin. They are the ultimate HODLers - taking one for the team.

This made me chuckle. There truly is a "crypto language" that will probably be studied by linguists and sociologists someday. Us degen whales can't stand those paperhanded FUDsters who diss dApp and DeFi. It's probably nothing, LFG.

MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1940 on: December 06, 2023, 03:49:26 AM »
The all-time high in cold BTC wallets has not been matched by an all-time high in the price of BTC, although it has risen +150% YTD.  Crypto exchange Bitfinex released this analysis on Nov 27 2023 :
Quote
An unprecedented 13.65 million Bitcoin, approximately 70 percent of the total circulating supply, has not been transacted or moved for over a year, a new
all-time high.
PDF https://blog.bitfinex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Bitfinex-Alpha-82.pdf

Many (most?) BTC trades avoid blockchain fees.  Crypto exchange Binance doesn't touch its 2.5% of all BTC when its customers trade Bitcoin.  They update internal records.  Same for Grayscale (3.3% of all BTC) when shares of $GBTC change hands.  These transactions are off the chain (!), which hides the volume from those analyzing cold wallets.

Yes, a large majority of BTC wallets are cold, but most trading of BTC doesn't involve wallets or on chain transactions.

More Bitcoin in cold wallets is a positive sign - is it not ?  Fewer Bitcoin on exchanges = fewer Bitcoin at non-custodial risk and fewer Bitcoin being actively traded.
Maybe I'm missing something, but you seem to be arguing against points that nobody has made.
Look where Juan Ponce de León, two posts above that one, replies to ChpBstrd asking about halving.  He claims a balance exists between supply and demand, which is upset by halving of block rewards (which reduces new supply).

Exchanges use cold wallets.  For example, Binance moved $4 billion USD worth of Bitcoin from a cold wallet a week or so ago (very likely to pay fines to the U.S. government).
https://blockworks.co/news/binance-cold-wallet-usdt

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1941 on: December 06, 2023, 04:18:13 AM »
The 'losers' still own the Bitcoin and it's safe to assume they still care about Bitcoin - they just can't access their lost Bitcoin. They are the ultimate HODLers - taking one for the team.

This made me chuckle. There truly is a "crypto language" that will probably be studied by linguists and sociologists someday. Us degen whales can't stand those paperhanded FUDsters who diss dApp and DeFi. It's probably nothing, LFG.

I responded to a post that speculated about "HODLers" and the "HODL'd versus LOST ratio" in the same language as the original post - for clarity.

Language is interesting and changes all the time, particularly in specialised subjects, and especially with new tech. If linguists and sociologists do study it someday, they'll conclude that "crypto-language" is nothing more than typical in-group shorthand and humour. I'm an older fellow, not really one of the cool kids, and don't use "crypto-language" much - but it's clear and concise, and can sometimes be useful.



This message was screened for Viruses, Malware, Spam and Phishing content before being sent from an Android device via Bluetooth and WiFi through several Firewalls.
Chuckle, chuckle . . . There truly is a "tech-bro language" that will probably be studied by linguists and sociologists someday . . .

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1942 on: December 06, 2023, 05:36:12 AM »
The all-time high in cold BTC wallets has not been matched by an all-time high in the price of BTC, although it has risen +150% YTD.  Crypto exchange Bitfinex released this analysis on Nov 27 2023 :
Quote
An unprecedented 13.65 million Bitcoin, approximately 70 percent of the total circulating supply, has not been transacted or moved for over a year, a new
all-time high.
PDF https://blog.bitfinex.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/Bitfinex-Alpha-82.pdf

Many (most?) BTC trades avoid blockchain fees.  Crypto exchange Binance doesn't touch its 2.5% of all BTC when its customers trade Bitcoin.  They update internal records.  Same for Grayscale (3.3% of all BTC) when shares of $GBTC change hands.  These transactions are off the chain (!), which hides the volume from those analyzing cold wallets.

Yes, a large majority of BTC wallets are cold, but most trading of BTC doesn't involve wallets or on chain transactions.

More Bitcoin in cold wallets is a positive sign - is it not ?  Fewer Bitcoin on exchanges = fewer Bitcoin at non-custodial risk and fewer Bitcoin being actively traded.
Maybe I'm missing something, but you seem to be arguing against points that nobody has made.
Look where Juan Ponce de León, two posts above that one, replies to ChpBstrd asking about halving.  He claims a balance exists between supply and demand, which is upset by halving of block rewards (which reduces new supply).

And Juan is, of course, correct. Bitcoin halving will clearly affect the Bitcoin supply/demand balance.

Exchanges conducting customer transactions internally/offChain have zero effect on the overall supply/demand balance - they're just buffers that soak up some of the to-ing and fro-ing.

LateStarter

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1943 on: December 06, 2023, 07:33:02 AM »
Most crypto related anomalies like "Bitcoin Sender Struck With $3.1M Transaction Fee"; are related to the exchanges or simply due to various very unforgiving operator error.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

The 'unforgiving' side of things can seem scary at first but it's part and parcel of 'immutable'. It's nothing new - we all know that physical reality/time is immutable, and we're all generally comfortable with it. We know our lives are on the line when we cross the road, so we take great care. We should take similar care transacting Bitcoin, when our money is on the line.

And, note that 'immutable' is not synonymous with 'unresolvable'.

The $3.1M fee you mentioned is being (has been?) voluntarily refunded: https://cryptoslate.com/antpool-to-refund-record-3-1m-bitcoin-transaction-fee-after-costly-user-mistake/.
Likewise, the similar Paxos $500k fee that occurred in September was voluntarily refunded.

If you fat-finger 0.1BTC instead of 0.01BTC to your crack dealer, you probably won't get it back. But if you're dealing with honest people with a conscience and/or a reputation to protect, immutable errors can be resolved.

crimp

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1944 on: December 06, 2023, 07:52:17 AM »

If you fat-finger 0.1BTC instead of 0.01BTC to your crack dealer, you probably won't get it back. But if you're dealing with honest people with a conscience and/or a reputation to protect, immutable errors can be resolved.

This is basically the value proposition of the traditional financial system. There’s nothing wrong with augmenting cryptographic protections in practice with some amount of trust or legal contract, but it is kind of telling that the blockchain-based payments systems rely on significant externally enforced social protocols just like banks do. At some point it seems to me relying on a slow database and generally honest counterparties is not particularly compelling as opposed to a fast database and generally honest counterparties.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1945 on: December 06, 2023, 10:13:39 AM »

If you fat-finger 0.1BTC instead of 0.01BTC to your crack dealer, you probably won't get it back. But if you're dealing with honest people with a conscience and/or a reputation to protect, immutable errors can be resolved.

This is basically the value proposition of the traditional financial system. There’s nothing wrong with augmenting cryptographic protections in practice with some amount of trust or legal contract, but it is kind of telling that the blockchain-based payments systems rely on significant externally enforced social protocols just like banks do. At some point it seems to me relying on a slow database and generally honest counterparties is not particularly compelling as opposed to a fast database and generally honest counterparties.

This couldn't be further from the truth - it's a complete misunderstanding / misinterpretation / misrepresentation.

The Bitcoin offering is completely different from "the value proposition of the traditional financial system". Bitcoin absolutely categorically does not "rely on significant externally enforced social protocols just like banks do".

My point was simply that an honest party can voluntarily refund a payment made in error or whatever, and that there is history of honest parties doing just that - including the specific 'unforgiving' case quoted by blue_green_sparks being forgiven.
The fact that a party may behave honourably does not, in any way, detract from the fundamental permissionless trustless immutability of a Bitcoin transaction.

crimp

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1946 on: December 06, 2023, 11:50:53 AM »

If you fat-finger 0.1BTC instead of 0.01BTC to your crack dealer, you probably won't get it back. But if you're dealing with honest people with a conscience and/or a reputation to protect, immutable errors can be resolved.

This is basically the value proposition of the traditional financial system. There’s nothing wrong with augmenting cryptographic protections in practice with some amount of trust or legal contract, but it is kind of telling that the blockchain-based payments systems rely on significant externally enforced social protocols just like banks do. At some point it seems to me relying on a slow database and generally honest counterparties is not particularly compelling as opposed to a fast database and generally honest counterparties.

This couldn't be further from the truth - it's a complete misunderstanding / misinterpretation / misrepresentation.

The Bitcoin offering is completely different from "the value proposition of the traditional financial system". Bitcoin absolutely categorically does not "rely on significant externally enforced social protocols just like banks do".

My point was simply that an honest party can voluntarily refund a payment made in error or whatever, and that there is history of honest parties doing just that - including the specific 'unforgiving' case quoted by blue_green_sparks being forgiven.
The fact that a party may behave honourably does not, in any way, detract from the fundamental permissionless trustless immutability of a Bitcoin transaction.

I understand the cryptographic assumptions and security properties of Bitcoin. I design, implement and review cryptography software professionally. We just disagree philosophically in regards to whether those properties are attractive as a contribution to an overall payments ecosystem.

My position is that in a payments ecosystem, the database and settlement layer is only a subset. In both banking and cryptocurrency there have been numerous instances of lawyers forcing clawbacks of funds sent in error, exchanges sending money back when they receive it in error, etc. In cryptocurrency you also get the recurring comedy of offering a carrot ('white hat' rewards) or stick (law enforcement) to those who abuse protocols to steal funds. I posit that in both banking and cryptocurrency the existence of informal, socially-enforced means of correcting for human error is a feature, not a bug.

The difference is that in the banking system, these guard rails and relationships are explicitly the product on offer. Fraud protections and AML requirements offer a social good separate from the underlying database technology used to move around figures in ledger(s). In the cryptocurrency world, people argue that the social enforcement is unimportant to the ecosystem because the security proofs demonstrate that the basic transaction substrate (Bitcoin) is secure. This is true in the powerful, limited technical sense of cryptographic proofs, but elides the context in which the technology is actually used. In practice, many cryptocurrency proponents seem change their philosophy suddenly when they realize they accidentally sent too much money or sent funds to the wrong address. They then look for legal means to recoup their funds (assuming they didn't destroy them entirely by sending them to an invalid address)! A very similar story has played out in various ways in the world of smart contracts.

If you're going to fall back on the legal system or the honor of others in any case, why not use a fast settlements layer instead of a slow one? Either code is law or it isn't. Luckily, it isn't.


MustacheAndaHalf

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1947 on: December 06, 2023, 12:30:04 PM »
Bitcoin halving will clearly affect the Bitcoin supply/demand balance.

Exchanges conducting customer transactions internally/offChain have zero effect on the overall supply/demand balance - they're just buffers that soak up some of the to-ing and fro-ing.
Sure, less Bitcoin produced per day is less supply.  What I question is how much it matters - how much Bitcoin's price will change in anticipation of halving.  There's a lack of data, since halving happens once every 4 years.

One article claimed the May 2020 halving caused Bitcoin's price to soar compared to "two months prior".  They compared to the lows during Covid-19 panic, didn't mention Covid-19 at all, and then attributed the price gains to the halving.  To me that's very poor attribution of what caused the price gains.

Yet if we go back to July 2016, Bitcoin was faily unknown.  No futures market, no $GBTC and no $BITO.  Mt Gox was hacked 2 years before, causing a huge drop.  I could believe a halving boosted enthusiam and price in 2016, but many factors present now were absent then.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1948 on: December 06, 2023, 01:38:00 PM »
And Juan is, of course, correct. Bitcoin halving will clearly affect the Bitcoin supply/demand balance.

Sure, of course it will have some effect, it's just rather incredible that it seems to have so much effect.

Right now there are 6.25 BTC added to the supply per block mined. There are 144 blocks mined on an average day, so that means about 900 BTC added to the blockchain per day. That represents an approximately 0.0046% increase per day of the overall supply. Within the next few months that number will be cut down to 0.0023%. Both of these numbers are essentially insignificant fractions of the overall supply, and they're also much less than 1% of the overall daily trading volume per Coinmarketcap. Furthermore each future halving is more or less scheduled already, so you'd think it would already be priced in to a large extent, rather than something people react to as if it was some sort of surprise.

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Re: What do you think of adding a low% of crypto allocation
« Reply #1949 on: December 06, 2023, 03:03:36 PM »

If you fat-finger 0.1BTC instead of 0.01BTC to your crack dealer, you probably won't get it back. But if you're dealing with honest people with a conscience and/or a reputation to protect, immutable errors can be resolved.

This is basically the value proposition of the traditional financial system. There’s nothing wrong with augmenting cryptographic protections in practice with some amount of trust or legal contract, but it is kind of telling that the blockchain-based payments systems rely on significant externally enforced social protocols just like banks do. At some point it seems to me relying on a slow database and generally honest counterparties is not particularly compelling as opposed to a fast database and generally honest counterparties.

This couldn't be further from the truth - it's a complete misunderstanding / misinterpretation / misrepresentation.

The Bitcoin offering is completely different from "the value proposition of the traditional financial system". Bitcoin absolutely categorically does not "rely on significant externally enforced social protocols just like banks do".

My point was simply that an honest party can voluntarily refund a payment made in error or whatever, and that there is history of honest parties doing just that - including the specific 'unforgiving' case quoted by blue_green_sparks being forgiven.
The fact that a party may behave honourably does not, in any way, detract from the fundamental permissionless trustless immutability of a Bitcoin transaction.

I understand the cryptographic assumptions and security properties of Bitcoin. I design, implement and review cryptography software professionally. We just disagree philosophically in regards to whether those properties are attractive as a contribution to an overall payments ecosystem.

My position is that in a payments ecosystem, the database and settlement layer is only a subset. In both banking and cryptocurrency there have been numerous instances of lawyers forcing clawbacks of funds sent in error, exchanges sending money back when they receive it in error, etc. In cryptocurrency you also get the recurring comedy of offering a carrot ('white hat' rewards) or stick (law enforcement) to those who abuse protocols to steal funds. I posit that in both banking and cryptocurrency the existence of informal, socially-enforced means of correcting for human error is a feature, not a bug.

The difference is that in the banking system, these guard rails and relationships are explicitly the product on offer. Fraud protections and AML requirements offer a social good separate from the underlying database technology used to move around figures in ledger(s). In the cryptocurrency world, people argue that the social enforcement is unimportant to the ecosystem because the security proofs demonstrate that the basic transaction substrate (Bitcoin) is secure. This is true in the powerful, limited technical sense of cryptographic proofs, but elides the context in which the technology is actually used. In practice, many cryptocurrency proponents seem change their philosophy suddenly when they realize they accidentally sent too much money or sent funds to the wrong address. They then look for legal means to recoup their funds (assuming they didn't destroy them entirely by sending them to an invalid address)! A very similar story has played out in various ways in the world of smart contracts.

If you're going to fall back on the legal system or the honor of others in any case, why not use a fast settlements layer instead of a slow one? Either code is law or it isn't. Luckily, it isn't.

Please expand on the "numerous examples of lawyers forcing clawbacks of [Bitcoin] sent in error".

Also, re. the "many [Bitcoin] proponents changing their philosophy suddenly when they realize they accidentally sent too much money or sent funds to the wrong address". Many ? Evidence ? Regardless, humans are humans - see also the many keen dog owners who became much less enthusiastic when they got bitten, the many keen parachutists who . . . , etc. etc. A few unfortunate/careless exceptions changing their minds doesn't invalidate the initial premise.

I've not suggested that anyone should "fall back on the legal system or the honor of others" - those are your words. I merely pointed out that, contrary to what was claimed, errors can be recoverable and recoveries have been made. I do not propose this as a 'fall back on' strategy - simply that you might get lucky if you're dealing with honourable people.