Wife flipped out when I brought up the idea

[surfhb]

I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.   

Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)

[firelight]

I know the above method sounds a bit devious but that is the best I can think of that won't antagonize your wife or the courts and still keep you married.

[rjg]

One thing I've noticed some of my coworkers do at our super stressful job is to suddenly stop contributing at all or do the bare minimum... After a point, any company will fire you if you did that. Once you are fired, you can take your time to find the right job. Your wife can't blame you for being fired if you don't talk about your performance or lack of it. That might bring a change in her attitude as well about moving out of NY.

Believe me, I've thought of it. And that's basically what I'm doing by default now due to my severe lack of motivation.

However, my wife would totally blame me for getting fired. And the courts use that "imputed income" thing even in cases where the person was laid off through no fault of their own. It is a pretty crazy system we have. Basically, never have kids with someone who earns less than you.

What is even more galling is that my wife will inherit a fortune from her stepfather.

[CommonCents]

OP, consider writing out what you have to say, and literally reading from it if need be (or giving it to your wife) so you don't forget things, stay on point, etc.  This may help in your discussions with your wife.  And it's ok to tell her that you have a hard time communicating things and you feel like you repress a lot of it, so that's why you're doing this.

[rjg]

I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.   

Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)

Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that

[cpa cat]

Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that

Look at it this way:

Option 1) Get a divorce. Pay child support until the child is 18. This means you probably have to continue working until your child is 18.

Option 2) Don't get a divorce. Work until you die, suffer a mental breakdown, or your wife divorces you. Pay more than $2500 a month for the privilege of listening to your wife tell you that your happiness is irrelevant to her, that you're crazy and that if you make her angry, she will divorce you. P.S. Remember to smile. It makes your wife angry when you don't smile.

Option 3) Just check into the psych ward now and wait for her to go away.

[begood]

rjg, I'm going to gently encourage you to make an appointment with your physician to discuss whether it might be appropriate for you to take some form of antidepressant or anti-anxiety medication.

If you've had poor luck with counseling in the past, maybe it's time to try a more traditional medical approach. It is possible that on a low dose of medication, you might feel better able to cope with the stressors in your life.

It doesn't take the stressors away, obviously, but it might make them easier to tolerate, at least in the short term.

[SunshineGirl]

Seriously, I feel for you, but I want to say, speaking from experience, that the first year you have a baby brings with it hidden stresses you could never have imagined. The first 12 months can be really tough, even as they are fantastic. Your marriage is worth working on. You'll never get this first year back with your baby. You can only change yourself. Etc.

Stop making your wife and your employer the bad guys. It's so easy to be angry at others when the anger should be directed inward. You LET yourself get in this situation.

(I say this with all good intentions, seriously!)

Change doesn't happen overnight, nor at the same pace for all people. You're in the midst of changing and creating the life you want. That should make you happy. 

I think you should work hard and change your attitude toward your job. If you don't, that negativity will come through in every interview you have. It taints a person in a way they can't always see, but others can. Think long term. Think Boston. Think of the life you want 20 years down the road and look backward from there. Is this how you want to remember your baby's first year?

[rjg]

Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that

Look at it this way:

Option 1) Get a divorce. Pay child support until the child is 18. This means you probably have to continue working until your child is 18.

Option 2) Don't get a divorce. Work until you die, suffer a mental breakdown, or your wife divorces you. Pay more than $2500 a month for the privilege of listening to your wife tell you that your happiness is irrelevant to her, that you're crazy and that if you make her angry, she will divorce you. P.S. Remember to smile. It makes your wife angry when you don't smile.

Option 3) Just check into the psych ward now and wait for her to go away.

Ha- this made me laugh

[Stockmom]

Could you tell her that you would like to make a plan to discuss your finances/life goals for a half hour to an hour once a week?  Say Sunday afternoons or something.  At this meeting you would agree to listen to each other without automatically dismissing what the other person is saying.  There would be no name-calling or belittling here.  It would just be a time for learning what each other wants from finances/life and trying to come up with small changes to move toward your respective goals.  I like this idea because it sort of puts her on notice that "you have not been dealing with me in a constructive/respectful manner and this is my attempt to change that".  I think it also implies that you feel the two of you are a team and that you'd like to work through this as one, versus her calling all the shots.  I think then it would be up to you to show her that if the two of you reigned in spending just a little, you could have a happy life, enjoying each other's company and raising your son together. 

[RetiredAt63]

Um, when a hockey player is seriously injured, does he get a job playing football at the pro level?  Or move from the Islanders to the Bruins?  No.  So her saying you should find something just as good elsewhere means she has not thought it through.  Think like that athlete who has 2-3 more good years - what comes next?  Coaching?  Something like Tim Horton's? (For those of you who don't know, Tim Horton was a hockey player.)  Guy LaFleur runs a helicopter rental company. Ken Dryden has done an amazing number of things. What will your second career be?     

Getting your financial house in order is always a good thing - if you need to change the terminology to make it appeal to her, do so.  It sounds as if you two had the resources for a lifestyle, and now the baby has changed that lifestyle (and the finances).  Starting a family changes everything, and both of you need to acknowledge that.  You have started to, and so has she, but in different ways.

Really at this point, for any decisions down the road (jobs, back to school, one being a SAHP, whatever), all I can say is you need to be on the same page before either of you starts talking about any kind of change.  You need to set up some nice spreadsheets, graphics, pie charts, whatever, and get her up to speed on the family finances.  Not in terms of retirement, or moving, or anything, but just to see where the two of you are now.   If you want to do a history, fine, or a projection, but what matters is where the money is coming in and going out now.  You two cannot function as partners if you are not equally aware of your lifestyle choices and costs.  And if you do not know where you are now, how can you get to someplace else?

I don't know New York family law, but it is worth checking.  In Ontario, (my province in Canada) I think her inheritance money (now condo) would now be seen as a joint asset (since you two are living in it, it would be different if it were an income property), but your assets (pensions, whatever) before marriage are yours.  Anything acquired during the marriage would be joint.  But that is negative thinking, except for doing a financial statement.  That is an interesting exercise though, it does clear up any misconceptions.

Re work, most places cut new fathers some slack, they know that you have new responsibilities and demands on your time, not to mention having more trouble getting enough sleep. Be a team player, but use the baby as an excuse to keep your workload more reasonable.  Be sure when you go back (I gather that is now?) that you make sure they get you caught up on what has been happening while you were gone, don't let them push you into the deep end.  And you really sound as if you could do with a lateral move out of management (as others have said).

I can understand her being resistant to change when the baby is so young, but in reality there is always change.  One advantage of FI is the FU money attitude.  At least then the change can be managed better. 

Retireat63-

That's exactly how I think of my job. I've tried explaining that to her and she agrees. But her response  is for me to "find a better job" (in a city she likes, paying no less than I make now).  There's no point in arguing about a hypothetical lower paying but more fulfilling job because I don't even know what that would be at this point. That is why I think living "within our means" while I get myself together and explore other options make sense. To her that just sounds like a rationalization to not work and a bad plan.

[Cassie]

The OP is right about child support. If you get laid-off & can't find a job at the same level & take a lower paying job they will make your child support at the level you were previously earning. This happened to a man I know that was making half what his wife was earning.  This man worked 2 jobs & had all his $ taken from both checks & had to move in with his Mom. She paid his bills.  This went on for 2 years until finally he found a job at his past level of pay. They went to court but the judges -male or female did not care about the man.  They even told him to go to another state to earn more $ . He had visitation and did not want to not see his kids but was told by the court the only important thing was that he should pay.  I would convince her to move for graduate school & afterwards find a job you like no matter what the pay.  If you divorce later you will have demonstrated a lower threshold of earning/living which may be respected by the court.   I would stay married long enough to set a pattern of less $.

[rjg]

The OP is right about child support. If you get laid-off & can't find a job at the same level & take a lower paying job they will make your child support at the level you were previously earning. This happened to a man I know that was making half what his wife was earning.  This man worked 2 jobs & had all his $ taken from both checks & had to move in with his Mom. She paid his bills.  This went on for 2 years until finally he found a job at his past level of pay. They went to court but the judges -male or female did not care about the man.  They even told him to go to another state to earn more $ . He had visitation and did not want to not see his kids but was told by the court the only important thing was that he should pay.  I would convince her to move for graduate school & afterwards find a job you like no matter what the pay.  If you divorce later you will have demonstrated a lower threshold of earning/living which may be respected by the court.   I would stay married long enough to set a pattern of less $.

Yep that's exactky the situation I'd like to avoid. That's why, to the extent  possible, it makes sense to scale down as much as possible while still married. As of now the grad school idea is probably my best shot

[firelight]

But do you want to go to grad school? I remember reading earlier that your wife will accept nothing short of MBA.... And those cost money and are very stressful in a top school.

[jmink]

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I've been really enjoying working remotely writing software and I've noticed a lot of my co-workers have young children and enjoy being able to see them at lunch, etc.  You can easily make north of 100K and live in cheap areas.

Good luck.  It sounds like you're going through a really rough patch.  Hang in there.

[mpbaker22]

I only read the first page + all posts by RJG.

Dude, why is divorce even on the table?  Your child is still how old, 4 months?  Your wife has gone through a whole slew of emotional and physical changes, and you've still recently dumped this on her.  Sure, you're right about the money, but you aren't right about the approach.  She really needs to understand how much you hate your job.  More importantly, she needs to understand there is another route to happiness.  On the other hand, you need to really understand what makes her happy, and how you can achieve it with your priorities fulfilled as well.  Maybe you could go unemployed for 6 months while looking full time and taking care of the kid.  At some point, not in 2014, you need to grow a pair and tell her that you hate your job and you're quitting.  If she wants YOU to be happy, she should be happy with that.  But you need to spend the next 4 months setting that up and showing her how awful your job is.

Lastly, stop posting all the problems to the entire world.  Sure, you can get financial advice, but you're not going to get honest marital advice from a board of people who are 1) limited in knowledge of your relationship 2) focused on finances, specifically cutting spending and 3) internet police.  How do you think  your wife would feel about some of the things you've posted on here, especially those pertaining to divorce and her attitude (even if she has been irrational and aggressive)? 

Now this is clearly all easier said than done, but that is my two cents.  I don't mean to be overly critical of you, but I bet you're taking negative thoughts here and reflecting them in your arguments and fights.

For the record, I am an early 20s male posting on this topic.

[Goldielocks]

The OP is right about child support. If you get laid-off & can't find a job at the same level & take a lower paying job they will make your child support at the level you were previously earning. This happened to a man I know that was making half what his wife was earning.  This man worked 2 jobs & had all his $ taken from both checks & had to move in with his Mom. She paid his bills.  This went on for 2 years until finally he found a job at his past level of pay. They went to court but the judges -male or female did not care about the man.  They even told him to go to another state to earn more $ . He had visitation and did not want to not see his kids but was told by the court the only important thing was that he should pay.  I would convince her to move for graduate school & afterwards find a job you like no matter what the pay.  If you divorce later you will have demonstrated a lower threshold of earning/living which may be respected by the court.   I would stay married long enough to set a pattern of less $.

Yep that's exactky the situation I'd like to avoid. That's why, to the extent  possible, it makes sense to scale down as much as possible while still married. As of now the grad school idea is probably my best shot

Okay,  the thread is getting into the logically manipulative.....as others said, there is no gun to your head. 
If you really want to make this happen, do the following:  your spouse can not say no.

1) Register for community college classes (2) today (the term starts this week. -- make them classes that you need to attend in the daytime, that are designed to help you get better marks, or be a better GRE, or freshen up your skills for applying to grad school. 

2) Take a "sabbatical"  -- move to part time work, or no work for the next semester, so you can focus on these classes.   Do this tomorrow - after your classes are registered, and without telling your wife.   give a written letter to your employer for thier notice, effective in 2 weeks.

3) Tell your wife.   Be very very excited about a specific grad school,.. how all your dreams will come true, and all the money you will make if only you were partner, but you need this specific grad school to do it, (total BS in other words. as you will use this as a transition year while you think about it).  how you are stagnating at work right now without promotions because of no grad school, etc.

4) In December, Extend the sabbatical to cover you for next term, while taking another 1-2 courses of interest, and either register for grad school for starting next year, or just keep extending.

5) If you take something interesting, but don't get a great mark, well that is ok,  you can always retake it... or ...book a couple of classes in EUROPE that the two of you move for a term to live over there temporarily...

Others have pointed out that a change of living condition will do wonders to your wife's perspective.  It may not be in the direction you planned, but certainly a temporary move away from the NYC trap you are in for at least 3 months will be a huge value.

She may or may not buy it.   

The above is definitely possible path to take, and my spouse essentially did this to me, minus the europe, trapping me into sole income earner status without FU money for many years..... but we are still married and talking, and even like each other.
....
By all means, get counselling, as you will be doing most of the above without talking to her about it, so you need a place to discuss life goals.

[surfhb]

I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.   

Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)

Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that

My point was that you are a very very fortunate individual.   There are 6 billion people on this earth who wished they were in your shoes financially.    I also suggest seeing a doctor and joining a No More Mr Nice Guy support group.   Lots of guys willing to discuss their own personal stories just like yours.   My cousin goes and it turned his marriage around by flat out telling her "no".   

I think you'd be surprised how your wife might react once she has nothing to grab onto :)

[Dee18]

I have read through all the posts.  While you very clearly stated what you do not want (your current job), perhaps you could just as clearly come up with 3 or 4 scenarios you would truly like to try.  Take time to write them out, with budgets.  One could be to work 6 more months, then head to Europe, etc.  Then write your wife a letter, telling her these are just some ideas.  Ask her to think about them and to write her own possible scenarios.  Set a time a week later to really discuss them. If I were your wife I would be worried sick.  Given that you have considered divorce on this forum, I imagine she realizes you are considering it...I can't imagine a more troubling thought for a new mother.  The first few months with a new child are inevitably exhausting, but they should also have a lot of joy.  Be sure you are doing your part to make that happen.

[Peach Fuzz]

It seems like there have been more and more drastic pieces of advice later in this thread. I understand that you're unhappy, hate your job, and are having some communication issues with your wife. It all sounds very overwhelming and stressful. I feel for you. But I don't see how just getting a prescription or going behind your wife's back and forcing things on her is going to help anything. I hope you don't go that route.

Thanks for sharing your story. The strange thing is that my wife's friends (with 1 exception) aren't the high flying shallow,  "gold digger" types. They are actually all really nice, good people who don't place money or possessions as their top priority. they work in lower paying fields like theater, government and social services. I think my wife's motivation is more anxiety related (scared of "being poor",scared of the unknown, etc).  My wife also has told me about how she dated finance people in the past and made a conscious decision that she didn't respect that type of work and didn't want that lifestyle (one guy had a Ferrari collection in his townhouse apparently).

From your comment here, it sounds like your wife isn't necessarily a super materialistic type or with those type of friends influencing her a lot. Not only that but she's "scared of being poor, scared of the unknown". I think you should try to think of these things from her perspective. (And no, I'm not taking her side, but trying to figure out why she is acting/saying the things she is. This will help you figure out a good way of handling the situation.) She just had a baby and could still be having crazy hormone issues. She needs a husband to be there for her and listen to her feelings and goals too. If she doesn't understand your financial situation is as good as it is, the thought of hubby quitting completely could be quite frightening. She has a baby to care for now! (her brain is probably screaming at her)

Since she is open to you going back to school and not bringing in the big bucks for awhile, maybe she is just worried that when you talk about retiring, you're wanting to be a lazy, unproductive husband. (Which doesn't sound like the case.) Still, an unattractive and scary thought for a new mom.

You also said she wants to move to Europe some day.

I think you should just have some open dialogue. Not talk retirement, per se. Just goals. A "what do you want out of life" type of discussion. You may have some commonality here you don't realize. Make sure she really understands your financial situation and what that means, if she doesn't already. What would you like to do if you quit work right now? Producing/ contributing/ working towards what? I think if she sees you will still be the go-getter and provider (if need be) that she knows and loves, she will feel a lot better about the situation.

Hire a sitter and go on a date. I'm sure you're both overwhelmed with a new baby. Stick together and work on helping each other instead of trying to be the one who's "right" or picking the other one apart. Be aware of what sets her off and make a point to try to avoid that language. No ultimatums, no telling her she can't do something. That only makes people want to push even harder the other way.

Hang in there. You can do this. Marriage is work, but having a loving wife and beautiful new baby to raise together sounds pretty wonderful, and worth the effort. Make steps to improve your (and her) happiness. Think in "we" terms, not "I". I wish you luck and hope that you two can figure out how to work together so you both can be happy. You can do it!

[dragoncar]

It seems like there have been more and more drastic pieces of advice later in this thread.

[RetiredAt63]

OP, Peach Fuzz is right.  Re-read that post.

Now, I don't do face punches (too hard on the knuckles) but I am going to give you a whup upside the head.

From the financial side, your wife has put her inheritance into housing that is now probably community property, so she has made a huge financial commitment to your marriage.   You are putting all the emphasis on your financial contributions and not hers.  You mentioned that she will probably have a big inheritance down the line - if I were whoever will be giving her the money, I would be putting one of those "spouse cannot benefit" clauses in my will. 

As well, you hate your job, OK.  Every job has its downsides, but you are being paid very well.   You need to start thinking about what you *would* like to do, not what you don't like to do.   Positive, not negative.  No Moaning Myrtles anymore, no whinging.

You don't want to be in New York?  Think of why she does.  Is it city living?  Does she have close family or long-time friends there? Would she have difficulty finding a job she likes equally well if you moved?  Is she slow to make new friends (i.e. an introvert) and a move would be hard that way?  I am seeing so much more negative than positive given about her, but you are married with a baby, there must be more positives in the relationship than you are telling us about.

Take things slow, try to get better balance at work, start discussing things with her - you are a team, start acting like its a partnership instead of two people yoked together going in different directions.  Maybe stop moaning online and start being serious with her instead?

Those who keep talking divorce, you also get a whup upside the head - you are way ahead of yourselves.  These people have a three month old baby - they are adjusting to a new baby, a new relationship between the two of them, a re-evaluation of priorities, and who knows what else that has not been discussed here. 

[Janie]

Peach Fuzz makes some good points if you want to be married. Presumably, you thought it was a good idea at some point. The two of you chose to have a baby so there was probably some optimism about the relationship. Given that you say you can't stand to look at your wife and think of divorce often that may no longer be the case.

Do you really want to stay in it only for financial reasons? Child support in NY State the non-custodial parent generally pays 17% of adjusted gross income as child support for one child and half of necessities. There seems to be a lot of negative feeling about child support from many posters in this thread, but parents are responsible for the lives they bring into the world whether they choose to stay together or not. Kids can cost a bit either way.

If you don't want to be married, it doesn't seem to be the end of the world to divide savings (which your wife contributed to considerably) and move on. Staying for money only doesn't seem a sound move. After all, there's no guarantee either of you aren't going to call things off further down the line.

What do you really want, money aside?

[rjg]

I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.   

Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)

Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that

My point was that you are a very very fortunate individual.   There are 6 billion people on this earth who wished they were in your shoes financially.    I also suggest seeing a doctor and joining a No More Mr Nice Guy support group.   Lots of guys willing to discuss their own personal stories just like yours.   My cousin goes and it turned his marriage around by flat out telling her "no".   

I think you'd be surprised how your wife might react once she has nothing to grab onto :)

I read the book and would love to go to a group. Strangely there are none in New York!

[surfhb]

I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.   

Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)

Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that

My point was that you are a very very fortunate individual.   There are 6 billion people on this earth who wished they were in your shoes financially.    I also suggest seeing a doctor and joining a No More Mr Nice Guy support group.   Lots of guys willing to discuss their own personal stories just like yours.   My cousin goes and it turned his marriage around by flat out telling her "no".   

I think you'd be surprised how your wife might react once she has nothing to grab onto :)

I read the book and would love to go to a group. Strangely there are none in New York!

Not according to their site :)

http://www.meetup.com/NMMNG-NYC/

[mozar]

Keep reading the other books too, I recommended codependent no more and feeling good. I've been working on boundaries for ten years with my family and it is still tough. Know that all this takes awhile to learn. check out this thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/reader-case-study-convince-so-that-i-can-fire-(with-or-without-her)
I also try not to argue with people anymore, it's always a losing battle. It's better to prevent the he-saids, she-saids in the first place. If you are going over arguments in your head, you are not strong enough to defend yourself yet.

[aj_yooper]

llamo, thank you for sharing your kind and wise thoughts. 

[rjg]

Lhamo- thanks for sharing. It does sound like you and I are similar in many ways. I have also struggled with anxiety my whole life.

[rjg]

But do you want to go to grad school? I remember reading earlier that your wife will accept nothing short of MBA.... And those cost money and are very stressful in a top school.

You are right - I am not very excited about it honestly. There is maybe 1 particular career path that getting an MBA could facilitate but it's a very long shot. And the 1 year programs at the top schools are indeed very intense. Given that I can barely remember what happened yesterday I'm not sure if I have the capacity for it right now. Otoh, almost anything sounds better to me right now than my current job.

[dude]

Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that

Look at it this way:

Option 1) Get a divorce. Pay child support until the child is 18. This means you probably have to continue working until your child is 18.

Option 2) Don't get a divorce. Work until you die, suffer a mental breakdown, or your wife divorces you. Pay more than $2500 a month for the privilege of listening to your wife tell you that your happiness is irrelevant to her, that you're crazy and that if you make her angry, she will divorce you. P.S. Remember to smile. It makes your wife angry when you don't smile.

Option 3) Just check into the psych ward now and wait for her to go away.

You forgot Option 4) take a small chunk of that fortune and pay it to someone who can make her disappear, you know what I'm sayin'?

Okay, that was tongue in cheek, but it happens all the time!

[rjg]

Another update - I just put in a request to transfer to our west coast office. It would still be the same job but atkeast I'd have an excuse to sell our place, get a new boss and a change of scenery. I have always wanted to live in California.

It's certainly far down my list of appealing options, but it still sounds better than staying in my current situation potentially.

As I see it, my options are (in no particular order)
1. Stay in my current situation and try to work on being calm and centered. Go to support groups and try to find a decent therapist
2. Hire a lawyer. Quit now and possibly get divorced over it. Go "super mmm" and live off maybe 1k/month after child support, asset division, etc
3. If they accept it, transfer to the west coast. Use that as a way to atkeast have more liquid assets and possibly lower our expenditures in a way that is more in line with FI. Perhaps the more laid back California attitude will rub off on me and my wife.
4. Stay in my current position till march, take a few months off then start an MBA program in another city or country (assuming I get in). Use this as an excuse to cut our expenses. After the MBA attempt to go after this 1 career path and if that fails really take my time to find something acceptable.
5.  Get another job outside the agency world. Perhaps it will be a better fit.

Currently I have irons in the fire for options 1,3,4,5. Makes me feel a little better to think in terms of options even if none of them seem great yet

[dude]

Another update - I just put in a request to transfer to our west coast office. It would still be the same job but atkeast I'd have an excuse to sell our place, get a new boss and a change of scenery. I have always wanted to live in California.

It's certainly far down my list of appealing options, but it still sounds better than staying in my current situation potentially.

Does your wife know this?  Is she amenable to West Coast living?  It is VERY different from east coast living, and esp. NYC living.

[rjg]

Another update - I just put in a request to transfer to our west coast office. It would still be the same job but atkeast I'd have an excuse to sell our place, get a new boss and a change of scenery. I have always wanted to live in California.

It's certainly far down my list of appealing options, but it still sounds better than staying in my current situation potentially.

Does your wife know this?  Is she amenable to West Coast living?  It is VERY different from east coast living, and esp. NYC living.

Yes she is amenable

[zataks]

I hope your west coast office isn't in San Jose or San Francisco; I recently heard we surpassed NYC in housing costs!

I think no matter what, #1 (support/therapy) is imperative.  The west coast move would brighten you up for a bit but once the novelty wears off, you're still doing the same job and it will be difficult to deal with.  But, sunny California is very pleasant.  =)

It's good you're feeling better about having options; acknowledging that you DO have options is monumental in feeling less trapped!

[rjg]

I hope your west coast office isn't in San Jose or San Francisco; I recently heard we surpassed NYC in housing costs!

I think no matter what, #1 (support/therapy) is imperative.  The west coast move would brighten you up for a bit but once the novelty wears off, you're still doing the same job and it will be difficult to deal with.  But, sunny California is very pleasant.  =)

It's good you're feeling better about having options; acknowledging that you DO have options is monumental in feeling less trapped!

LA actually. Yeah I agree with your assessment but another benefit is an impetus for us to sell our apartment in NYC. That unlocks equity and just sets the stage for greater flexibility.

[RetiredAt63]

Lhamo, thank you for your post - I thought things were getting too emotional/panicky on here, and you have given a wonderful explanation of why, and new way of looking at things.

Rjg, you have gone from basically despair to looking at a variety of options - this is major.  The change in cities, the change in living arrangements, the change in day-length (sun!) will all have their effects, if you do the transfer.  The move would also give you wife the chance to really think about her short-term future - would she prefer to be a SAHM or find a job she really likes in LA.

If not, is there any possibility of a lateral transfer that will get you out of management?  Some people love management and some people hate it.  In my old (Science) Department, we didn't fight over who would be Department Chair, we fought to get out of being Department Chair - as we joked, if we had wanted to go into management, we would not have been in Science.  The Chair ended up being whoever could tolerate the BS the best, and we rotated in and out really fast.  Our "elections" were all by acclamation, for who ever got railroaded that year.  You are a science type, you may have already reached your management BS limit.

IMHO you are not a good candidate for Grad school at the moment, you don't have the focus or desire, and that means it would not be a good experience for you.  If you like the idea of going back to school, wait until you are more focused (stress makes it hard to study) and go back to something you are really interested in.  Leave the MBA for those who want it.  I say this as someone who taught Community College and University, and wondered why some of my students were there - they had no interest, they were just going through the motions, and they were paying the school to do this.

All the best.

[surfhb]

If you FIRE now with the fortune you have and she goes ahead with divorced proceedings regardless she doesn't love you to begin with.....something to think about ?

[CommonCents]

If you FIRE now with the fortune you have and she goes ahead with divorced proceedings regardless she doesn't love you to begin with.....something to think about ?

This really doesn't make sense to me.  Please explain.

For the record, I believe you can divorce someone you love, if you believe you can't live with them (because you want too different of lives - such as whether to have kids, or even whether to retire early and live on less).  But I still don't understand your point, even if we disagree on this one.

[mpbaker22]

If you FIRE now with the fortune you have and she goes ahead with divorced proceedings regardless she doesn't love you to begin with.....something to think about ?

It might mean that she thinks he doesn't love her.  It might mean that she thinks he wants to divorce her in a few years and is trying to set an income precedent (as suggested by another poster).  It might mean they just treat each-other like garbage, in a non-loving way.  I think the fact that we equate "falling in love" with marriage and "falling out of love" with divorce has contributed greatly to the decline in our overall culture.

[SisterX]

Yeah, I'm really disturbed by all the "divorce the bitch" type comments.  Calm down!  Every explanation on here is from rjg's perspective.  Am I the only one who thinks that some of the childishness is on his part?  "Wah, I sprung a huge change in everything on the wifey during what's already a time of emotional crisis for women and couples, when she's sleep-deprived and hormonal, and she doesn't like it!  Wah!"  Sorry, rjg, but if you're considering divorce in this situation at all, it's at least half your fault and you should own up to it like an adult.  Yes, your job sucks.  I really do get it.  I started the "terrible bosses" thread, after all, and dealt with a situation that was bad enough my husband even now asks why I didn't poop on my old manager's desk as I left.  (Seriously.)  But you are the one who's complaining to strangers on the internet rather than having constructive conversations with your wife.  You've said that you understand some of the reasons she feels the way she does but you don't seem to be taking her feelings seriously because it's getting in the way of what you want right this second.  Life changes should take time, and for very good reason.  When they don't take time we consider them traumatic.  Springing a complete 180 of lifestyle and expectations on your wife within months of having a baby is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Some people have said of your wife's behavior that "that's not what you do to someone you love".  Well, neither is your behavior.  I love my husband, and the thought of divorce is so painful that no matter how upset with him I am, I would never entertain thoughts of actually seeking out a lawyer.
If you really, desperately want a change, you need to find the courage to explain that to your wife in a way that makes her really understand that you want to do this together.  You want to do this so that she is comfortable as well.  Because that's what you do with your partner for life.  Is it going to be perfect and exactly what you want?  No.  It never is.  You've tied your life with someone else's, so you need to compromise just as much as she does.  Nothing you've written here makes me think that she's not open to some compromises, or that she's simply materialistic, vain, and bitchy as some (mostly male) posters have characterized her.  Does she fight horribly?  Most likely.  Does that make her a terrible person?  Probably not.  It might be up to you to learn to speak her language to make these changes palatable to her, and it will take time. Feel free to tell her that she's made you feel like nothing but a--what was it, "ATM with legs"?  But do so in the nicest way possible.  Don't start a fight to say it.  If you need to write it in a letter to get all your thoughts out properly, that really can help.  When my husband and I are so mad that we can barely speak to each other, that's what we do.  We keep a Word file open and write back and forth.  Eventually, we get to the point where we can speak calmly and have a dialogue rather than a fight.  The best part is, now that we're parents the baby never hears us shouting at each other.  (And even though she's too young to understand, we never, ever say anything to her about our arguments or against the other parent.  No "daddy's being an asshole" comments that some people will do when they're mad at their spouse.)
Calm down and shelve the divorce thoughts.  I can assure you, she probably realizes you're having them and it's not making her feel any more secure or any more amenable to what you're proposing.

[boy_bye]

Calm down and shelve the divorce thoughts.  I can assure you, she probably realizes you're having them and it's not making her feel any more secure or any more amenable to what you're proposing.

in all fairness, from the OP sounded like *she* was the one who brought up divorce when he brought up the idea of FIRE.

[rjg]

Yeah, I'm really disturbed by all the "divorce the bitch" type comments.  Calm down!  Every explanation on here is from rjg's perspective.  Am I the only one who thinks that some of the childishness is on his part?  "Wah, I sprung a huge change in everything on the wifey during what's already a time of emotional crisis for women and couples, when she's sleep-deprived and hormonal, and she doesn't like it!  Wah!"  Sorry, rjg, but if you're considering divorce in this situation at all, it's at least half your fault and you should own up to it like an adult.  Yes, your job sucks.  I really do get it.  I started the "terrible bosses" thread, after all, and dealt with a situation that was bad enough my husband even now asks why I didn't poop on my old manager's desk as I left.  (Seriously.)  But you are the one who's complaining to strangers on the internet rather than having constructive conversations with your wife.  You've said that you understand some of the reasons she feels the way she does but you don't seem to be taking her feelings seriously because it's getting in the way of what you want right this second.  Life changes should take time, and for very good reason.  When they don't take time we consider them traumatic.  Springing a complete 180 of lifestyle and expectations on your wife within months of having a baby is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Some people have said of your wife's behavior that "that's not what you do to someone you love".  Well, neither is your behavior.  I love my husband, and the thought of divorce is so painful that no matter how upset with him I am, I would never entertain thoughts of actually seeking out a lawyer.
If you really, desperately want a change, you need to find the courage to explain that to your wife in a way that makes her really understand that you want to do this together.  You want to do this so that she is comfortable as well.  Because that's what you do with your partner for life.  Is it going to be perfect and exactly what you want?  No.  It never is.  You've tied your life with someone else's, so you need to compromise just as much as she does.  Nothing you've written here makes me think that she's not open to some compromises, or that she's simply materialistic, vain, and bitchy as some (mostly male) posters have characterized her.  Does she fight horribly?  Most likely.  Does that make her a terrible person?  Probably not.  It might be up to you to learn to speak her language to make these changes palatable to her, and it will take time. Feel free to tell her that she's made you feel like nothing but a--what was it, "ATM with legs"?  But do so in the nicest way possible.  Don't start a fight to say it.  If you need to write it in a letter to get all your thoughts out properly, that really can help.  When my husband and I are so mad that we can barely speak to each other, that's what we do.  We keep a Word file open and write back and forth.  Eventually, we get to the point where we can speak calmly and have a dialogue rather than a fight.  The best part is, now that we're parents the baby never hears us shouting at each other.  (And even though she's too young to understand, we never, ever say anything to her about our arguments or against the other parent.  No "daddy's being an asshole" comments that some people will do when they're mad at their spouse.)
Calm down and shelve the divorce thoughts.  I can assure you, she probably realizes you're having them and it's not making her feel any more secure or any more amenable to what you're proposing.

I hear what you're saying but she brought up the divorce idea. That is why I entertained hiring a lawyer to atkeast prepare if that could be a potential outcome.

I agree there is a way and a time to talk to her constructively about it. And as you and others pointed out, it's not now. For now I'm working on other options (that she is ok with) that may put us on a better path - at the same time it might be prudent for me to plan for worst case scenarios (divorce).

[msilenus]

One thing to consider, I think, is that you're living on a clock right now.  You have a kid.  There's a strong impetus to lay down some roots somewhere before that kid enters Kindergarten.  So you have about 4-5 years to wind up where you want to be.  If you want to have been living there for a year or two (to be sure --a margin of safety) then you don't really have a lot of time to get yourself where you want to be.

Net-net: I'd suggest that if you want to be in Europe in ten years, then you ought to be looking to try out Europe now.  I also suspect that if you want a culture to rub off on your wife, you're better off somewhere on the Continent than in L.A. (of all the places on the West Coast.) And maybe you'd find the work culture less toxic there as well.

[RetiredAt63]

The D word - yes she said it in the heat of the moment - maybe to get you to take her response seriously?   To me she sounds generally pretty committed - she just had your baby, she put her money into the condo.   If you said you went ballistic, should I be checking your trajectory?  We all use hyperbole.

What Msilenus said - good point, is LA an improvement over NYC?  And since your wife has strong concerns about education (and she has the background), can she get a job someplace where she would like to see your son be in school?  If she wants European style without leaving North America, you guys could move to Montreal and enroll your son in French immersion $7/day daycare.  High taxes but low COL, and great food.

Apart from all the life style changes, you two really do need to sit down at some point and do a financial overview.  Not in anticipation of divorce, but to see where you are.  You did say she is insecure about being financially stable, so she really needs to see it all laid out in one picture.  If you are suddenly going all frugal on her, she may be thinking the two of you are in financial trouble, not that you want to make a good financial situation even better.  If she doesn't know the whole picture, how can she judge?  So it is up to YOU to pull all the information together and make a presentation that will knock her socks off (oh, there is that hyperbole again, she is allowed to keep them on) - you are an IT guy, after all,you can do it.

[SisterX]

Yeah, I'm really disturbed by all the "divorce the bitch" type comments.  Calm down!  Every explanation on here is from rjg's perspective.  Am I the only one who thinks that some of the childishness is on his part?  "Wah, I sprung a huge change in everything on the wifey during what's already a time of emotional crisis for women and couples, when she's sleep-deprived and hormonal, and she doesn't like it!  Wah!"  Sorry, rjg, but if you're considering divorce in this situation at all, it's at least half your fault and you should own up to it like an adult.  Yes, your job sucks.  I really do get it.  I started the "terrible bosses" thread, after all, and dealt with a situation that was bad enough my husband even now asks why I didn't poop on my old manager's desk as I left.  (Seriously.)  But you are the one who's complaining to strangers on the internet rather than having constructive conversations with your wife.  You've said that you understand some of the reasons she feels the way she does but you don't seem to be taking her feelings seriously because it's getting in the way of what you want right this second.  Life changes should take time, and for very good reason.  When they don't take time we consider them traumatic.  Springing a complete 180 of lifestyle and expectations on your wife within months of having a baby is a pretty shitty thing to do.  Some people have said of your wife's behavior that "that's not what you do to someone you love".  Well, neither is your behavior.  I love my husband, and the thought of divorce is so painful that no matter how upset with him I am, I would never entertain thoughts of actually seeking out a lawyer.
If you really, desperately want a change, you need to find the courage to explain that to your wife in a way that makes her really understand that you want to do this together.  You want to do this so that she is comfortable as well.  Because that's what you do with your partner for life.  Is it going to be perfect and exactly what you want?  No.  It never is.  You've tied your life with someone else's, so you need to compromise just as much as she does.  Nothing you've written here makes me think that she's not open to some compromises, or that she's simply materialistic, vain, and bitchy as some (mostly male) posters have characterized her.  Does she fight horribly?  Most likely.  Does that make her a terrible person?  Probably not.  It might be up to you to learn to speak her language to make these changes palatable to her, and it will take time. Feel free to tell her that she's made you feel like nothing but a--what was it, "ATM with legs"?  But do so in the nicest way possible.  Don't start a fight to say it.  If you need to write it in a letter to get all your thoughts out properly, that really can help.  When my husband and I are so mad that we can barely speak to each other, that's what we do.  We keep a Word file open and write back and forth.  Eventually, we get to the point where we can speak calmly and have a dialogue rather than a fight.  The best part is, now that we're parents the baby never hears us shouting at each other.  (And even though she's too young to understand, we never, ever say anything to her about our arguments or against the other parent.  No "daddy's being an asshole" comments that some people will do when they're mad at their spouse.)
Calm down and shelve the divorce thoughts.  I can assure you, she probably realizes you're having them and it's not making her feel any more secure or any more amenable to what you're proposing.

I hear what you're saying but she brought up the divorce idea. That is why I entertained hiring a lawyer to atkeast prepare if that could be a potential outcome.

I agree there is a way and a time to talk to her constructively about it. And as you and others pointed out, it's not now. For now I'm working on other options (that she is ok with) that may put us on a better path - at the same time it might be prudent for me to plan for worst case scenarios (divorce).

Yes, she brought up divorce first.  But it sounds to me more like she did it from fear than from any motive of actually wanting to get divorced.  Has she brought it up since?  Has she talked about it as an actual possibility, or was she just throwing it out there to hurt you?  If it was the last (which I'm betting it was) then it wasn't because she actually wants to get divorced, it was because she was afraid and hurt and vulnerable and wanted to make you feel the same way.  It's a horrible thing to do, yes, but it was done in response to your actions so you bear some responsibility.  You're getting a lawyer to protect yourself and that seems prudent to you.  But, has she been talking to a lawyer?  She's brought significant assets to your marriage and she has a lot to lose--being a single mom has never yet been described as easy.  If she hasn't brought up divorce since then, hasn't made any moves toward it, then you're probably jumping the gun and, arguably, making the situation worse.  Because now it's in the back of your mind, "Well if she doesn't do what I want then I can just divorce her."  Yeah, you know it wouldn't be quick or easy, but you've still got that escape plan fermenting back there.  That is really no way to be part of a marriage.  There are definitely good reasons to get divorced, but "I hate my job" isn't really one of them, and that is the root problem here.  You were fine with the way things were until you had the kid and realized how crappy your job was, right?  So the problem isn't really with your wife (although you two definitely need to work on your fighting techniques and communication skills), it's with your job.  Put more effort into the job situation (which I commend you for looking into alternatives for) than into the divorce aspect.
Of the people who are recommending divorce, how many of them are married?  Have ever been married and are now divorced?  How many have kids?  Young kids or babies?  Do they truly understand the ramifications of what they're suggesting?  It's no skin off their backs if you become just another statistic and get divorced.  After all, it's not their financial and emotional explosion that they're proposing.  They're jumping to an extreme means of getting what you want because it doesn't really matter to them what you do.  They're just strangers on the internet, giving out "advice".  But for you, it's everything.  FIRE without your wife and only getting to see your kid part of the time...is that really what you want?  I doubt it.  So back off on the lawyer until you really get some indication that your wife is truly thinking divorce.  Throwing it out once in a fight doesn't really count.  If it becomes a pattern or a possibility that she starts holding over you, then talk to the lawyer.  Until then, you need to work on thinking like a team.

[Daleth]

I only read the first page + all posts by RJG.

Dude, why is divorce even on the table?  Your child is still how old, 4 months?  Your wife has gone through a whole slew of emotional and physical changes, and you've still recently dumped this on her.  Sure, you're right about the money, but you aren't right about the approach.  She really needs to understand how much you hate your job.  More importantly, she needs to understand there is another route to happiness.  On the other hand, you need to really understand what makes her happy, and how you can achieve it with your priorities fulfilled as well.  Maybe you could go unemployed for 6 months while looking full time and taking care of the kid.  At some point, not in 2014, you need to grow a pair and tell her that you hate your job and you're quitting.  If she wants YOU to be happy, she should be happy with that.  But you need to spend the next 4 months setting that up and showing her how awful your job is.

Lastly, stop posting all the problems to the entire world.  Sure, you can get financial advice, but you're not going to get honest marital advice from a board of people who are 1) limited in knowledge of your relationship 2) focused on finances, specifically cutting spending and 3) internet police.  How do you think  your wife would feel about some of the things you've posted on here, especially those pertaining to divorce and her attitude (even if she has been irrational and aggressive)? 

Now this is clearly all easier said than done, but that is my two cents.  I don't mean to be overly critical of you, but I bet you're taking negative thoughts here and reflecting them in your arguments and fights.

For the record, I am an early 20s male posting on this topic.

+1. Very good advice.

[Villanelle]

Do you want to stay married to this woman?  Forget, for a moment, the financial aspect of divorce.  Do you want her to continue to be your daily partner in life?  You mention that you thought about divorce, then dismissed it due to cost.  If you don't want to be married, that seems a bit silly to me.

You are willing to leave a job you hate, despite the financial consequences.  Why are you less willing to leave a marriage you don't like (if that's the case), despite those financial consequences?  Maybe it means you have to keep working for another few years.  But it would at least give you an end in sight.  And it would get you away from a partnership that no longer works for you.

If you love her and want to be married to her, stay in the marriage for that reason.  But if it's the finances that are keeping you there, that's no different than staying in a job due to the finances.  You can make it work by taking a lower paying job to supplement the numbers you've come up with for post-divorce.  If wouldn't be full retirement, but it would be better than where you are now, which is in a job you hate and with a spouse you don't want to be with (if that's the case).

Regardless, I'd encourage to give all of it a bit more time, unless you were unhappy in the marriage long before now.  But staying married due to money is no more logical or necessary than staying for the money in that job you hate.

[NUF]

I'd like to point out three things from the viewpoint of a wife was not supportive right away when my husband came to me with the idea of retiring asap because he hated his job.

1) When my husband came to me and wanted to save up as fast as possible to retire early because he hated not only his individual job, but also any and all possible jobs in his career path, my first and overwhelming impression towards his plans were that they were unreliable. I felt that he was now proving himself to have been unreliable in his past plans, career choices and goals. A quick 180 change in all of your previously expressed goals and values over the course of a whole lifetime may brand you as an unreliable partner in her mind and it will make it difficult for her to 100% believe in your new goals and values because you've shown yourself able to very quickly reject previous ones.

2) Planning to retire immediately or otherwise drastically change the life that you fully participated in building for all the years that you've been married previous to the last is not moderate course of action and can seem like a knee jerk extreme reaction. In my situation, I know that my husband is not a moderate man and that his immoderate actions sometime don't work out long term. For example, he tends to diet in a very extreme way, fall off the wagon, eat poorly, then start the cycle over again. This has not been sustainable for him in either exercise or diet and led to me feel that an immoderate course of action regarding finances would not be sustainable either. Is this something that your wife may be thinking?

3) This last item is more for commentators and not so much the OP. I vaguely remember that the OP had stated that his wife is not comfortable with the stock market. Please take that info into account when gauging her comfort level and reaction to a potential 4% WR. (Edited to take out the S per following comment)

[mpbaker22]

3) This last item is more for commentators and not so much the OP. I vaguely remember that the OP had stated that his wife is not comfortable with the stock market. Please take that info into account when gauging her comfort level and reaction to a potential 4% SWR.

Just a pet peeve of mine on this board.  There is no such thing as a 4% SWR.  That's a WR.  Nothing S about it.

[rjg]

I'd like to point out three things from the viewpoint of a wife was not supportive right away when my husband came to me with the idea of retiring asap because he hated his job.

1) When my husband came to me and wanted to save up as fast as possible to retire early because he hated not only his individual job, but also any and all possible jobs in his career path, my first and overwhelming impression towards his plans were that they were unreliable. I felt that he was now proving himself to have been unreliable in his past plans, career choices and goals. A quick 180 change in all of your previously expressed goals and values over the course of a whole lifetime may brand you as an unreliable partner in her mind and it will make it difficult for her to 100% believe in your new goals and values because you've shown yourself able to very quickly reject previous ones.

2) Planning to retire immediately or otherwise drastically change the life that you fully participated in building for all the years that you've been married previous to the last is not moderate course of action and can seem like a knee jerk extreme reaction. In my situation, I know that my husband is not a moderate man and that his immoderate actions sometime don't work out long term. For example, he tends to diet in a very extreme way, fall off the wagon, eat poorly, then start the cycle over again. This has not been sustainable for him in either exercise or diet and led to me feel that an immoderate course of action regarding finances would not be sustainable either. Is this something that your wife may be thinking?

3) This last item is more for commentators and not so much the OP. I vaguely remember that the OP had stated that his wife is not comfortable with the stock market. Please take that info into account when gauging her comfort level and reaction to a potential 4% WR. (Edited to take out the S per following comment)

All great points.

What made you change your mind? Or did you?