The Money Mustache Community
Learning, Sharing, and Teaching => Ask a Mustachian => Topic started by: rjg on August 04, 2014, 09:57:02 AM
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So- I hate my career/job in web consulting. My wife and I currently live in NYC, make about 200k combined and spend about 9k/month. However, we have about 2.3 million in net worth. Much of that wrapped up in home equity unfortunately. We are both 39 and have a 3 month old.
I'm on fmla leave with the baby and am dreading the prospect of returning to work on a few weeks. When I look at our networth, it seems like it would be entirely possible to move out of NY, buy a place for 500-600 and live sustainably from 5-6k/ month. And that's without even getting too mustachian.
When I brought this idea up with my wife, she went ballistic. Went off about what a terrible idea it was and went off on a 30 minute rant that ended with her suggesting divorce if this was my plan. Among other things, she said told me that:
-I didn't grow up poor and don't know what it's like (I hardly think 6k/ month budget counts as poor!)
-she insists that our kid be sent to private school
-what if something catastrophic happens or our child has a disability that costs more money treat
-she thinks it sets a "bad example" if his dad "doesn't work"
-she only wants to live in a major city near the water such as LA, NYC, ..maybe Boston.
-she wants to live in Europe
-she wants us to travel a lot
-saud that I'm just burned out and need to find a job I like
So...anyone had a spouse that was so dead set against being financially independent? Or reacted this strongly to it? Any advice?
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I'm on fmla leave with the baby and am dreading the prospect of returning to work on a few weeks. When I look at our networth, it seems like it would be entirely possible to move out of NY, buy a place for 500-600 and live sustainably from 5-6k/ month. And that's without even getting too mustachian.
I'd think it's likely to be possible, since my wife and I live comfortably on half that... :-) However, it might require pulling her away from the life and location that she loves. That may not be the best thing to do.
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Had you talked before about private school and moving to Europe? Seems like you both are proposing some big changes to each other.
Did she say why private school, living in big city etc? Did she say whether she'd be ok with working while you perhaps stayed home? (Perhaps not immediately, but after you built up a stash not tied to your home?)
I really think the issue is that you have different dreams, and you need to get on the same page with agreement on what the dream is before you can figure out how to get there.
You'll probably both need to compromise, such as by building a big enough stash to cover possible additional expenses (like health care). And maybe you should look for a new job you'd like better.
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My wife is hardly on board with going full on mustachian, but her reactions have never been that strong. I think you need to really sit down and discuss this very seriously, and let her give you a vision of how she sees your future together. Maybe you can make the numbers work under her ideal conditions.
$2,300,000 * 4% = 92,000 / 12 = $7,667 each month.
I realize you said a large part is home equity, but maybe you could sell? Do some math and see what your net worth can provide you on a monthly basis, then see if it fits within her ideal lifestyle.
As far as you having to work to set an example for your child, that's a mindset that is clearly 100% against what you want for your future. This is the most crucial part of the conflict. If you simply don't want to work and your wife can never get over that I don't think this will end well. If she simply wants you to have a job and you're okay with a different (more fun) job, maybe that's the direction you can head in.
Good luck!
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How much of your net worth is home equity and how much of your spending is the mortgage payment?
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It was probably too much at once. This has to be a process. And unfortunately, it sounds like a few years might have to pass before the light gets turned on for your spouse.
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Read the current MMM post to help you better frame your discussion. You need to focus on what your goals are in life, and the best way to get there together.
I didn't see where you actually reviewed a plan to become financially independent, or how that would achieve what she wants in life.
I agree with your wife to some extent, all I hear is that you hate your job, but not what you will do, where you will live, and how it will make your lives better. It certainly can't hurt for you to find a job you like, or at least keep the one you have until you have a joint plan for FI. or divorce if you really are that different.
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It seems like you tossed out a proposal to majorly upheave nearly every aspect of your lives. Of course she freaked out.
Are the things she mentions wanting things you currently have or have discussed? if so, then I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect any reaction other than freaking out. Even if it hasn't been discussed but it was a reasonable assumption based on past choices, etc., it's still a huge thing to suddenly hear that *everything* is going to be different now.
I think you need to start much, much smaller.
Perhaps start with getting a different job, even if it pays less, and show her that the $15k less in income (or whatever) can be made up with X, Y, and Z, and with X and Y being things that mostly affect you, and Z being a joint sacrifice. Ask if she can get on board with that (assuming you can). From there, work on slowly cutting costs and slowly bring up topics like other cities where you might both be happy but which have a lower COL. Tell her and show her that her priorities are important to you, too, but that you want to work to meet in the middle. Let her see that you are prepared to compromise and then hope that she is reasonable enough to do the same. Ask her what sacrifices she *is* willing to make, and show her what sacrifices you are willing to make, and see if you end up closer to something sustainable for both of you. And make sure she sees the upsides for her, not just the sacrifices.
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Some people are very invested in status. Your wife seems to be one of them - hence there being no middle ground between rich and poor, and there being only a tiny selection of cities where she could possibly be happy. I don't know how you fight that. She basically told you that she'd rather divorce you than suffer the blow to her status that would result from you quitting your job and moving the family out of NYC.
At the risk of disclosing my true anti-mustachian lifestyle - my budget is $6,000 per month after tax (with an additional $12,000 per year for emergencies built in) in the midwest. For that amount, people own 4,000 sq foot homes with giant back yards (pool optional), send their kids to private school and maintain a countryclub membership, while taking regular vacations. It's a nice life.
But it's not status-heavy NYC rich. And we would suffer a significant lifestyle blow by moving to Europe (which we have considered, because I have citizenship). If status is what's important to your wife, then ER is probably out of the picture - especially since she has an ingrained problem with the male spouse not working.
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You are in a rough spot. I feel really badly for you. It would be nearly impossible to FIRE with a spouse who opposes it to the point of threatening divorce. People tend to change during the course of their lives and sometimes those changes can really threaten marriages. I do not envy you for the challenges you face in trying to get your spouse on board with a Mustachian lifestyle. Some people are so obsessed with status and material goods that a minimalist lifestyle is repugnant to them.
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So- I hate my career/job in web consulting. My wife and I currently live in NYC, make about 200k combined and spend about 9k/month. However, we have about 2.3 million in net worth. Much of that wrapped up in home equity unfortunately. We are both 39 and have a 3 month old.
I'm on fmla leave with the baby and am dreading the prospect of returning to work on a few weeks. When I look at our networth, it seems like it would be entirely possible to move out of NY, buy a place for 500-600 and live sustainably from 5-6k/ month. And that's without even getting too mustachian.
When I brought this idea up with my wife, she went ballistic. Went off about what a terrible idea it was and went off on a 30 minute rant that ended with her suggesting divorce if this was my plan. Among other things, she said told me that:
-I didn't grow up poor and don't know what it's like (I hardly think 6k/ month budget counts as poor!)
-she insists that our kid be sent to private school
-what if something catastrophic happens or our child has a disability that costs more money treat
-she thinks it sets a "bad example" if his dad "doesn't work"
-she only wants to live in a major city near the water such as LA, NYC, ..maybe Boston.
-she wants to live in Europe
-she wants us to travel a lot
-saud that I'm just burned out and need to find a job I like
So...anyone had a spouse that was so dead set against being financially independent? Or reacted this strongly to it? Any advice?
Don't take this the wrong way, but I think if your wife blows up and suggests divorce at the mere mention of moving/career change, then there are some underlying structural/relationship issues you need to address
The fact that she goes right to the nuclear option of divorce threats at you just floating an idea is a bad sign. Also, with the attitude she has how would she treat you if you lost your job NOT by choice?
And being successful enough to save enough money that you can support yourself off your savings is a TREMENDOUS example, not a bad one.
I'm assuming she too expects to retire at SOME point. If retiring at X years doesn't set a bad example, how does doing it even faster and more efficiently?
But again, this is not an issue you are going to address with logical arguments because, as is evidenced by her overreaction, her reservations are related to some kind of deep-seated fears/insecurities.
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It was probably too much at once. This has to be a process. And unfortunately, it sounds like a few years might have to pass before the light gets turned on for your spouse.
This.
To the OP, I feel your pain. Sounds like you need to start floating this idea more slowly. I recently started a thread on the same subject. There are a ton of great suggestions people have brought up.
You may discover that your goals aren't so different. You may have just triggered an emotional response to some other fear. Give it some time and make sure she knows you care about what matters to her.
All that said, no one has figured out how to get 2 people to make a radical shift in perfect harmony and quickly!
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It seems like you tossed out a proposal to majorly upheave nearly every aspect of your lives. Of course she freaked out.
Are the things she mentions wanting things you currently have or have discussed? if so, then I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect any reaction other than freaking out.
Adults should never "freak out" and threaten divorce when their partner simply broaches a subject. Yes it would be a major life change IF THEY DID IT, but he simply raised a "hey what if we..." situation. If you can't do that without your partner 'freaking out' then you will not be able to ever discuss any important issues with them.
We already have a term for freaking out when somebody brings up something you don't like: it's called a temper tantrum, and mature adults don't do it, children do.
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First thing that occurs to me: You have a three-month old. You're experiencing a lot of changes, you're acclimating yourself to a new lifestyle . . . and you're throwing out the idea of major changes? Dude, your timing sucks.
Next, I see that about half of her concerns deal with raising your child. She doesn't want to do it "halfway", and she's thinking that lots and lots of money is necessary for that. She doesn't seem to be particularly rational in these thoughts; I mean, being concerned that a healthy baby would suddenly develop an expensive disability isn't all that realistic.
I say do NOTHING now. Get yourselves past the newborn phase. No good ever comes of making big decisions during a time of upheaval and change -- perhaps even crisis; newborns can make things feel like a crisis. Perhaps New Year's would be a good time to visit your goals. At that point the baby'll be sleeping reliably, you'll be in a schedule. And give her some warning: Tell her that you'd like her to sit down and set goals, make plans, etc.
That would also be a good time to visit your life insurance and wills. No matter how against frugality she may be, she will see the sense in protecting your child with those necessities.
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I think it's always challenging when our values shift. You're valuing your time and freedom over money, and up until now your choices have been more aligned with income and success. So your wife may view this as a violation of the unspoken contract between you.
So you can forgive a momentary freak-out, right?
I'd circle back with her when feelings are cooler. Tell her that you understand what you suggested would be a really big deal, and that you are not expecting her to agree with everything you say, but you want to talk it through.
But then tell her how her reaction made you feel. You propose a more modest lifestyle and she threatens divorce? She treated you like a paycheck with legs, not a partner. This must have felt pretty crappy. She needs to be aware of how she came across.
Then talk about what you'd like the future to look like. Ask her what she wants. Then give yourselves some time (months) to revisit the conversation and see if you can agree on a destination. I'm not sure being sleep deprived with an infant is the best time to have these conversations.
Good luck. And congrats on the kiddo.
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Everyone has said excellent things, so I will just ditto all that, and offer this strange little story:
In my last relationship, we were both generally open to creative approaches, which is why I was stunned when he labelled one of my ideas, vehemently, as "stupid" and declared that we were never going to do it. At the moment, my jaw just dropped.
And then, when I had an awesome idea to meet his dreams, he dismissed that as "impossible" and, without my knowledge, proceeded to instead sign a contract with his ex-wife (mother of his children) to stay put.
Etc.
Now? He lives in the exact location I proposed, in the exact type of dwelling I proposed, using the exact approach I proposed.
I am boggled.
When I visited him last weekend, I asked him why he spat on my ideas when I proposed them originally. He just shrugged my question off.
I notice that this time, when I gave my ideas/opinions for his new place, he received every one of them with excitement, respect, and agreement.
This story won't help you at all. It's more like commiseration, I guess, over a partner who reacts vehemently to perfectly sound ideas -even to ones they might, even just one year later, totally love and choose for themselves! Ah, humans!
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It seems like you tossed out a proposal to majorly upheave nearly every aspect of your lives. Of course she freaked out.
Are the things she mentions wanting things you currently have or have discussed? if so, then I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect any reaction other than freaking out.
Adults should never "freak out" and threaten divorce when their partner simply broaches a subject. Yes it would be a major life change IF THEY DID IT, but he simply raised a "hey what if we..." situation. If you can't do that without your partner 'freaking out' then you will not be able to ever discuss any important issues with them.
We already have a term for freaking out when somebody brings up something you don't like: it's called a temper tantrum, and mature adults don't do it, children do.
+1
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From one Nu Yawku to another.
So much I can say but will hold my tongue.
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I pulled this up to read the suggestions as I'm trying to get my H more on board. He likes the idea of me staying home when we have kids (in about 2 years, hopefully) but isn't too apt to cut our lifestyle to make that happen. I don't have much specific to add but have found baby steps seem to be the best way to address things so far, I'm the cook and have started working leftovers in once a week, requested we go out to eat less (but not cutting it out entirely), etc, and he seems to be handling gradual adjustments like that well.
I'm just starting this journey of getting my spouse on board as well, but it seems to me you need to understand why she thinks it's a "bad example" if you don't work, and why private school is so important (after all, you could be pretty involved in his education if you were retired). I understand the want to travel, but 6k/month should still allow you to do quite a bit of that. As for her fears of something catastrophic, maybe look into more insurance? Depending on what you already have it may not be necessary, but if it would help her sleep better it may still be worth the cost.
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As a married person, it is fair and appropriate to share your feelings, especially when they have changed over time. For instance, you have come to a place where you really dislike the work you are in, and with a new baby, you are realizing that you want to free up time along with having security for your family.
It is not fair to go straight to a solution without consulting your partner, especially one that is radically different from the life you are living together now. (It wasn't entirely fair for your wife to lose it to that extent, but at least you now know how far back you need to rewind, ie to the beginning).
So apologize to your wife for jumping the gun and start the conversation over again. And ask how SHE'S feeling about your life as a family. There may be things she would like to change too. Once you know what problems you have to solve together, then you can start coming up with a variety of solutions and pick the one that works best for all three of you (baby too.) There are plenty of Mustachians who choose city living...some of them have posted on these boards. Maybe there's some part-time work/city living hybrid that will work for you and make her happier than relocation.
And I strongly recommend the book "Decisive" by Chip and Dan Heath about making good decisions. They have a lot of useful things to say about widening your options, giving things a trial run, etc.
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Don't take this the wrong way, but I think if your wife blows up and suggests divorce at the mere mention of moving/career change, then there are some underlying structural/relationship issues you need to address
The fact that she goes right to the nuclear option of divorce threats at you just floating an idea is a bad sign. Also, with the attitude she has how would she treat you if you lost your job NOT by choice?
And being successful enough to save enough money that you can support yourself off your savings is a TREMENDOUS example, not a bad one.
I'm assuming she too expects to retire at SOME point. If retiring at X years doesn't set a bad example, how does doing it even faster and more efficiently?
But again, this is not an issue you are going to address with logical arguments because, as is evidenced by her overreaction, her reservations are related to some kind of deep-seated fears/insecurities.
One thing most people here don't seem to have considered: this could be post-partum related. There are still hormonal changes going on (particularly if she's breastfeeding/pumping), she's likely sleep deprived and already dealing with the loss of part of her life. It's not really talked about, but it kind of sucks after having a kid to realize just how much you miss your old, carefree babyfree life. Moms seem to get hit harder with that than dads, at least in my experience, because the first year is all about mom. They need mom CONSTANTLY, and it's something you know but don't quite know how much it will change your life until after it happens. I know, I'm going through this right now. I think, no matter how much you love your kid, there's a period of mourning for your old self. Her resistance to this new idea might just be because it all feels like too much at once. She lost her old babyfree life, and now you want to take away the vision she'd built up of her new life with you and baby. Think of that from her side. That would be really hard for anyone to deal with, but with sleep deprivation and all the other effects of being a new mom on top of it, wow.
Is she back at work? She could be extra tired and hating her own job because it's pulling her away from the baby so much. Even if she loves her job, she probably resents it a bit too right now. I definitely had a love/hate relationship with my job when I first started back after baby, and resented my husband for being the one who stays home with her all day. It gets better. But if my husband had been working and suddenly said, "I want to quit," I'd have gone ballistic. It would have felt like he was taking away MY option to stay home if working and mommying became too much. I know that's not what you proposed, but that might be the way it sounded to her.
This sounds like, at the very least, it's partly attributable to the baby blues, at least to me. If my husband had suddenly proposed something like this to me 3 months after our daughter was born, I'd have flipped out too. Not because it's not a good idea, but because of the timing. The only advice I can give is to proceed more gently. Don't bring up all these changes at once, but start a series of conversations (loving ones, please) about what you'd both like for your future. Feel free to say that you now realize how much you hate your job and that it wasn't until you had so much time away you truly realized what a weight it's been for you. BUT, use that as a stepping stone for, "So how do we reconcile me hating my job with what you/we want for our future? How can we both get what we want?" As always, in a relationship it's about compromise. Maybe she doesn't get to stay in NY, but is there another city with a lower COL where you can both be happy? Can you find a way to budget living for at least a year in Europe when the kid is older and can benefit from it, where neither parent has to work so you can homeschool the kid and enjoy the time as a family? (That's one of my dreams. :) If she does enjoy her job, make sure to factor that in as well when you're planning where to go.
If neither of you is willing to compromise, then your relationship is going to implode at some point. You need to also decide if quitting your job immediately is more important to you than your relationship with your wife. Not only your wife, but how divorce would affect the kid too and your relationship with him(?).
Your wife might not be open to all these changes right now, but go slowly and I'm betting you can sell the dream. Especially if you emphasize how much more time you'll all get to spend as a family.
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Now? He lives in the exact location I proposed, in the exact type of dwelling I proposed, using the exact approach I proposed.
I am boggled.
Some people just can't get on board with an idea that wasn't "theirs." Cubicle life is full of people like this... I suppose it makes sense that these people are the same way in their relationship. It's easy to sacrifice your pride at work in order to get something done when you aren't caught up in office politics; it's not a viable long term method of relationship management, though.
OP, sorry I have nothing to add, but can also commiserate. When your paradigm is so different from someone else's, it can feel near impossible to communicate with them, let alone come to an agreement. There is great advice here, and I have hope and support for you.
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First thing that occurs to me: You have a three-month old. You're experiencing a lot of changes, you're acclimating yourself to a new lifestyle . . . and you're throwing out the idea of major changes? Dude, your timing sucks.
This. And the other stuff Mrs. Pete said. Look, many people do find welcoming a baby to their family to be an opportunity to re-evaluate and make (other) changes, but if the changes are unwelcome -- well, a baby is change enough without needing to add to them. Forget proposing to FIRE: you're proposing that your wife quit her job and find another employer (if I'm understanding the implications of your plan correctly), that you two sell your home, box up (or get rid of) all your possessions, buy another home somewhere else (where unspecified, at least in your post), move and start over, and that your household shifts from being a two-earner family to a one-earner family. I'd go ballistic too, if I thought you were serious, or I were feeling tired, or hungry.
Personally I'd either drop it altogether (for now) as Mrs. Pete suggests, or focus in on some small bits (e.g. if you were going to move out of NYC, where else would each of you think about living).
But to end on a positive note, congratulations on your new baby!
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I'd go ballistic too, if I thought you were serious, or I were feeling tired, or hungry.
There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.
Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.
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Your wife is, no doubt, brainwashed.
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First thing that occurs to me: You have a three-month old. You're experiencing a lot of changes, you're acclimating yourself to a new lifestyle . . . and you're throwing out the idea of major changes? Dude, your timing sucks.
Next, I see that about half of her concerns deal with raising your child. She doesn't want to do it "halfway", and she's thinking that lots and lots of money is necessary for that. She doesn't seem to be particularly rational in these thoughts; I mean, being concerned that a healthy baby would suddenly develop an expensive disability isn't all that realistic.
I say do NOTHING now. Get yourselves past the newborn phase. No good ever comes of making big decisions during a time of upheaval and change -- perhaps even crisis; newborns can make things feel like a crisis. Perhaps New Year's would be a good time to visit your goals. At that point the baby'll be sleeping reliably, you'll be in a schedule. And give her some warning: Tell her that you'd like her to sit down and set goals, make plans, etc.
That would also be a good time to visit your life insurance and wills. No matter how against frugality she may be, she will see the sense in protecting your child with those necessities.
Everything ^^ up there!
Also, gotta say it:
Does she always react like this to upheaval/changes? If not, has she been screened/evaluated for PPD? If the reaction is totally out of character for her, there could be something beyond normal fear of big changes going on.
But yeah, your timing could have been better! Bring it up in smaller chunks. Say you hate your job and would like to do something different. Then take action there and see if that makes you happier. Incremental changes + happiness increases in one spouse tends to have a positive impact on the other!
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Yes, my wife had a pretty similar reaction (maybe not quite as extreme, but LOTS of negativity and irrational fears). And we didn't even have a newborn or anything.
I say we need to give the OP a break here. Yes, the idea of moving your whole life is radical (and I can understand/appreciate the wife's shock at it), but that's kind of the point. When you realize you're sitting on $2.3 million in net worth and no longer need to work at a job you hate -- well, that's a radical and life-altering realization. Who here, when suddenly told they were being left $2.3 million in cash by an uncle who died that they never even knew, would continue working at a job they hate?
OP, I don't fault you for bringing it up as an idea to her. It was just an idea, and one with a helluva lot of merit at that. It's not like you listed your house for sale, quit your job, and forced her to sell her car and let her hair go gray rather than spend $20 on hair coloring. But of course you have to understand that the idea shocked her, and you're going to have to give her plenty of time to think about it.
Also, you need to know that whether or not hormones are at play, there are absolutely emotions, insecurities, and lots of other things working here that have absolutely nothing to do with logic or finances or math (I speak from lots of experience here). As an example, my wife is very much wrapped up in the "status" issue and other fears -- "What will the neighbors think of you, a grown man, not working?! People just don't quit working before 60, it's not 'right'! You'll die of a heart attack from giving up work like happens to so many men right after they retire!"
So, you are going to have many mountains to climb with her to reach a point where you are both having your goals/needs met. Like I suggested to UniFI in his similar posting -- it's a marathon, not a sprint.
Congrats on the newborn by the way!
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Some people just can't get on board with an idea that wasn't "theirs." Cubicle life is full of people like this
So true!
Have you ever tried the trick at work where, in a meeting, you say, "You know Cubicle Worker 7941, that idea of yours to move our 401k plan into a low-cost, indexed funds portfolio is excellent! We really should do that." Of course, Cubicle Worker 7941 never made that suggestion*, but is happy to take credit for an idea that is declared in public as excellent. It's amazing, this really does work, I've used it successfully more than once!
*Note that there is an assumption that there was some kind of related discussion going on about 401k plans or related company benefits; you don't just jump out with a crazy, unrelated thing in a meeting and then claim your coworker suggested it.
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I'd go ballistic too, if I thought you were serious, or I were feeling tired, or hungry.
There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.
Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.
I'm not a shrink, but I think that the ballistic moments tend to happen when someone feels a loss of control (totally normal with a new baby). As a previous poster says, "Dude, your timing sucks".
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I'd go ballistic too, if I thought you were serious, or I were feeling tired, or hungry.
There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.
Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.
I'm not a shrink, but I think that the ballistic moments tend to happen when someone feels a loss of control (totally normal with a new baby). As a previous poster says, "Dude, your timing sucks".
moments of domestic abuse happen when someone feels a loss of control too. Doesn't mean it's ok.
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I'd go ballistic too, if I thought you were serious, or I were feeling tired, or hungry.
There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.
Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.
Have you dealt with having a child, the sleep deprivation and/or PPD? Or are you a MD/PhD with experience in this field? I can't imagine anyone doing well having a three month child and working and their spouse deciding their entire life should change.
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I'd go ballistic too, if I thought you were serious, or I were feeling tired, or hungry.
There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.
Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.
I'm not a shrink, but I think that the ballistic moments tend to happen when someone feels a loss of control (totally normal with a new baby). As a previous poster says, "Dude, your timing sucks".
I don't care how angry you are, threatening with divorce is a big no-no. He just brought up an idea. There's some deeper relationship issues going on than just FIRE, I'm gonna bet.
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So- I hate my career/job in web consulting. My wife and I currently live in NYC, make about 200k combined and spend about 9k/month. However, we have about 2.3 million in net worth. Much of that wrapped up in home equity unfortunately. We are both 39 and have a 3 month old.
I'm on fmla leave with the baby and am dreading the prospect of returning to work on a few weeks. When I look at our networth, it seems like it would be entirely possible to move out of NY, buy a place for 500-600 and live sustainably from 5-6k/ month. And that's without even getting too mustachian.
When I brought this idea up with my wife, she went ballistic. Went off about what a terrible idea it was and went off on a 30 minute rant that ended with her suggesting divorce if this was my plan. Among other things, she said told me that:
-I didn't grow up poor and don't know what it's like (I hardly think 6k/ month budget counts as poor!)
-she insists that our kid be sent to private school
-what if something catastrophic happens or our child has a disability that costs more money treat
-she thinks it sets a "bad example" if his dad "doesn't work"
-she only wants to live in a major city near the water such as LA, NYC, ..maybe Boston.
-she wants to live in Europe
-she wants us to travel a lot
-saud that I'm just burned out and need to find a job I like
So...anyone had a spouse that was so dead set against being financially independent? Or reacted this strongly to it? Any advice?
Fellow NYer here.... About the same age with young children too. Don't sweat the Divorce talk.... Every NY wife will throw that out upon the threat of moving from NY... Not to mention you hit up a new mom with all of this crazy talk.... Not to say it’s all crazy talk... I often feel the same way, especially when I was about to go back to work right after my kids were born.
Why go to a job that sucks instead of being with the babies when you can live anywhere else in the country and be a daddy?
Well the answer lays more in your how you decided to bring this up not in your goals themselves. I hit the very same road block when my kids were born. Before they were born you were going to work and had a set of plans and now all of a sudden you have a new set of plans yet up until now you didn't really discuss them with your wife. Your wife has a different set of plans and she probably didn't discuss them with you... I bet you didn't know you were moving to Europe did you? And she didn’t know you wanted to retire at 39.
We had general goals save and invest, but nothing we ever so concrete as we made enough to be on easy street, never really budgeted because it never mattered. We just coasted…
Well now you have a kid, you hate your job, she wants private school and Europe and you want FI and a lower cost of living... The real problem is you both hit each other up with these wildly different ideas without any coordination out of nowhere when you are pretty sleep deprived from having a 3 month old, congratulations by the way :)
So step back, realize you both need to figure out what it is that will make you both happy, explain to her you don't plan on being a bum, and there are alternatives to crazy ass work, but you need to understand you aren't going to be living like MMM as she wants some expensive shit too so there is some middle ground but the two of you need to realize that.
My wife would kill me if I were home all the time like MMM without a "real" job even if I had $30mm, so my FI plan has to have some "me doing something or else" involved...
Good luck and keep us posted
-Mister FancyPants
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If the things she wants for your child and your future have never been discussed before you guys may have some communication issues to iron out. Like work towards getting on the same page in the present (the baby) and for your future. Take your time and be patient with each other. I agree that threatening divorce is generally not a good thing (and am in no way condoning the threat) but you two have had a very stressful time these last six months. Maybe take your time to focus on what is currently important while adjusting your current lifestyle to one that meets your values. Walking the walk so to speak. Then when things cool down you could start approaching discussion of changes in small steps rather than dumping it three weeks after the birth of a first child.
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Birth of kid, move, new job (or retirement), divorce - these are noted as some of the biggest sources of stress in life, and experiencing multiple at the same time is not additive but exponential.
I don't think a new mom wants to add any new stress, even if it's good news (e.g., we don't have to work anymore). From an algebra perspective, moving and quitting jobs may seem more stressful than divorce. But she also knows that by going to the nuclear option she's going to get you to chill for a while for her to recover from having a kid.
So waiting is in order, but there are a lot of things on your side. A 3 month old is super awesome, but nothing compared to a 1 year old with a real personality. Going to a super awesome private school is what a momma bird will want for a 3 month old. But once you start to interact with the kid like a person instead of an eating / pooping machine you need to protect, she may realize that time with the kid is far more important than the best private school.
I guess the good news is that you at least know where you stand. Not a great starting position, but every hand can turn into a winner, and with a light touch and the wisdom of this site you can get there.
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I'd go ballistic too, if I thought you were serious, or I were feeling tired, or hungry.
There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.
Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.
To be clear, I don't mean the "tired" or "hungry" that you or I feel. I mean the "tired" or "hungry" that a new, possibly nursing, possibly also working f/t, mom of a 3-month old feels. I've BTDT and it's on a different plane -- or can be (I won't presume that all women feel like I did, but I did, and I wasn't suffering from PPD or dealing with an unusually difficult situation, or kid. Boy did that first year of motherhood knock me out.).
But -- eh. Honestly, if I weren't capable of dealing with 30 minutes of outrage and my husband threatening divorce, our marriage wouldn't be worth much. (And I wouldn't dream of likening experiencing that to domestic abuse, not least out of respect for domestic abuse victims). Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
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Good god. OP, I am sorry.
Folks, take this lesson, get on the same damn page with your SO before marriage/kid.
OP, you could divorce now and retire in a year. Assume that you get half the assets and a million is plenty to retire on.
I grew up with divorced parents and it can be okay....
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I'd go ballistic too, if I thought you were serious, or I were feeling tired, or hungry.
There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.
Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.
I think the main thing here is we're giving the OP the benefit of the doubt because he's the one telling the story. We don't know whether his description of "going ballistic" is accurate. And we don't know how he presented the idea. Throwing around a pie-in-the-sky idea based on emotional reasoning ("I hate my job and/or am going through some type of crisis and want to completely relocate and change our lives") and ballpark numbers during a time of massive change and stress in the family is bound to get a reaction. I mean if my spouse suddenly proposed moving to the west coast and joining some kind of scientology cult, my response would not be civil and would certainly encompass the possibility that he was free to do what he liked but that I would not be joining him.
Listen, I'm completely onboard with the thinking of everyone on this board, to wit that the consumerist ratrace is a joke and a trap. But I respect that people have certain lifestyle expectations that go into their decision about who to marry. If my spouse decided they want me to double my earning power so that we could start buying a bunch of crap and summering in the hamptons, that would seem grossly unfair. It's not what I signed up for, and would probably be a deal breaker no matter how open-minded I am or how much I loved the person.
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So- I hate my career/job in web consulting. My wife and I currently live in NYC, make about 200k combined and spend about 9k/month. However, we have about 2.3 million in net worth. Much of that wrapped up in home equity unfortunately. We are both 39 and have a 3 month old.
I'm on fmla leave with the baby and am dreading the prospect of returning to work on a few weeks. When I look at our networth, it seems like it would be entirely possible to move out of NY, buy a place for 500-600 and live sustainably from 5-6k/ month. And that's without even getting too mustachian.
When I brought this idea up with my wife, she went ballistic. Went off about what a terrible idea it was and went off on a 30 minute rant that ended with her suggesting divorce if this was my plan. Among other things, she said told me that:
-I didn't grow up poor and don't know what it's like (I hardly think 6k/ month budget counts as poor!)
-she insists that our kid be sent to private school
-what if something catastrophic happens or our child has a disability that costs more money treat
-she thinks it sets a "bad example" if his dad "doesn't work"
-she only wants to live in a major city near the water such as LA, NYC, ..maybe Boston.
-she wants to live in Europe
-she wants us to travel a lot
-saud that I'm just burned out and need to find a job I like
So...anyone had a spouse that was so dead set against being financially independent? Or reacted this strongly to it? Any advice?
1.) get a respected counselor
2.) get a lawyer
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Dude, your timing sucks.
I second this. You're on FMLA. She's probably just gone back to work and here you are saying you don't want to work anymore. You both need more sleep. Let the upheaval of a newborn settle then try again, slower this time.
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Start with laying out a plan for how you will retire at the "normal" age of 65, then show her how little would be required to reduce that to 60 -- and also travel in Europe :) Once the idea of retiring a little bit early is comfortable (say in a year's time), you'll be in a better position to talk about more radical moves that would reduce that even more.
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So- I hate my career/job in web consulting. My wife and I currently live in NYC, make about 200k combined and spend about 9k/month. However, we have about 2.3 million in net worth. Much of that wrapped up in home equity unfortunately. We are both 39 and have a 3 month old.
I'm on fmla leave with the baby and am dreading the prospect of returning to work on a few weeks. When I look at our networth, it seems like it would be entirely possible to move out of NY, buy a place for 500-600 and live sustainably from 5-6k/ month. And that's without even getting too mustachian.
When I brought this idea up with my wife, she went ballistic. Went off about what a terrible idea it was and went off on a 30 minute rant that ended with her suggesting divorce if this was my plan. Among other things, she said told me that:
-I didn't grow up poor and don't know what it's like (I hardly think 6k/ month budget counts as poor!)
-she insists that our kid be sent to private school
-what if something catastrophic happens or our child has a disability that costs more money treat
-she thinks it sets a "bad example" if his dad "doesn't work"
-she only wants to live in a major city near the water such as LA, NYC, ..maybe Boston.
-she wants to live in Europe
-she wants us to travel a lot
-saud that I'm just burned out and need to find a job I like
So...anyone had a spouse that was so dead set against being financially independent? Or reacted this strongly to it? Any advice?
I feel for you man. I hated my job and quit when my son was 9 months old, I haven't worked in more than 5 years now. It's not always fantastic being home, but it beats having to deal with newbie first officers, bitchy flight attendants and dodging thunderstorms every day.
Why is she so hopped up on private schools? I understand that you'd have to go private if you decide to live in most areas of the city, but you can move to any great suburb in the tri-state area and have public schools that rival most of the private schools. You'd also be able to buy a veritable mansion for a quarter of your 2.4 million dollar home in the city.
Also, you guys are making loads of money with what I'm going to assume is a degree from a mid-level public college. Unless you're banking on your kids going to a top med or law school, what's the point of private school? It's really just about the connections you make or getting into grad school. I know lots of very wealthy people that went to state schools.
You don't necessarily need to make lots of money to live in Europe for a bit. We figure my wife could pick up a contract and we could rent an apartment in Europe for the summer. If we rent out our house and use CC points, it will probably be about net zero.
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Dude, your timing sucks.
I second this. You're on FMLA. She's probably just gone back to work and here you are saying you don't want to work anymore. You both need more sleep. Let the upheaval of a newborn settle then try again, slower this time.
QFT
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When I had a newborn, and said newborn was premature and had disabilities, and I was super sleep deprived, and I had PPD (manifested more as anxiety), and was solely responsible for all income and infant care, and I was working in my own business, my boyfriend asked me to move with him to another city. I pondered it very briefly, and said no, primarily because in the current place I at least had some practical support from family members, and could afford my living space, whereas in the new city I would have increased expenses and reduced supports. I made a decision from a parenting point of view only. (A few years later I had a moment of kicking myself about that, because I was alone and lonely. I told myself, "Next time someone asks you to come live with him, you say yes." But that was only a moment. I stand by my decision to put my capacity to parent first.)
So, a few thoughts:
1. Even a person with all these circumstances can respond calmly and kindly.
2. However, a large part of the reason I could respond calmly despite all these variables was that I was not invested in that relationship. I think this is good news. i.e., Your wife may be panicking because she is invested in your guys' relationship, and wants a life with you. Okay, so throwing around the divorce word is not the ideal way to communicate that, but I still think her emotional response may actually give indication of investment/desire.
3. Post-baby is one of the most stressful times for a LOT of couples. Regardless of the gender of each parent, either or both will often feel shell-shocked, horrified at the thought of returning to work, exhausted, stressed, and scared -and experience a total re-evaluation of all things previously held dear. It's a wild time, emotionally, psychologically, physically, and logistically. If you want to stay married, I would make "stay married" your primary goal right now. Well, "keep child alive" and "stay married". No other new goals today. It's awesome that you do have additional options, but I would hold off on setting any of those as priorities right now.
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Ok yes lets all take a deep breath.. feel better?..:)
OK the spouse flipped out, but think about it. She now has this hungry mouth to feed. She thought she was bringing this baby into a world of top private schools and well compensated parents with country club memberships.
Satisfied about taking on this HUGE responsibility, her SO then out of the blue decides "Hey, I'm gonna quit work and we're gonna live like hippies.. You cool with that?"..
OK an over dramatisation, but this is what she heard.
Now of course her response was overkill but you have to remember you poked the mamma bear!.. There is no one person that she will defend with any more ferocity than the well being of HER kid. You dear OP are just a well paid sperm donor at that point!
Yes your hurt and a bit confused why she would attack you like that and I think the PPD idea may well have some merit as well.
So my advice is slow down, focus on being a partner and raising your kid for a few months.. Explain to her how hurt you were about getting the nuclear option blah blah and pick it up again in a few months.
But do it as others have suggested, I.e ASK her what her long term plans are etc (which will be to earn a much money as possible to provide max security for her kid).. then work from there.
Good luck!
Frank
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Ok yes lets all take a deep breath.. feel better?..:)
OK the spouse flipped out, but think about it. She now has this hungry mouth to feed. She thought she was bringing this baby into a world of top private schools and well compensated parents with country club memberships.
Satisfied about taking on this HUGE responsibility, her SO then out of the blue decides "Hey, I'm gonna quit work and we're gonna live like hippies.. You cool with that?"..
OK an over dramatisation, but this is what she heard.
Now of course her response was overkill but you have to remember you poked the mamma bear!.. There is no one person that she will defend with any more ferocity than the well being of HER kid. You dear OP are just a well paid sperm donor at that point!
Yes your hurt and a bit confused why she would attack you like that and I think the PPD idea may well have some merit as well.
So my advice is slow down, focus on being a partner and raising your kid for a few months.. Explain to her how hurt you were about getting the nuclear option blah blah and pick it up again in a few months.
But do it as others have suggested, I.e ASK her what her long term plans are etc (which will be to earn a much money as possible to provide max security for her kid).. then work from there.
Good luck!
Frank
Frank has a very good point. If I though ANYONE was going to harm my daughter the claws would come out. This includes my best friend, my mother and yes, my husband. I would remove anyone who was a risk to her. If she saw your actions as harming her child, a divorce threat is not unlikely.
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I haven't read everyone else's replies yet, so sorry if I'm repeating what's already been said...
We live in Seattle and have a lot of equity in our house (although nothing like yours) and I've been trying to make the same argument to my husband, but change isn't his strong suit, so here I sit for now.
Your wife had a baby 3 months ago. I promise you that the hormones are still surging through her body and probably will be for the first year (I've had 2, so this is from experience). The change of having a child is probably just about all she can deal with in the way of changes for now. She's also dealing with her ideals of what she wants for her child right now, but those things change as the child grows and reality sets in.
That being said, as your child grows, most likely she will start feeling some of the same things you are. At least that's what happened to me. You might just need to be subtle and give it time.
That's quick to suggest divorce, though. My husband waited until each of our kids was 6 months old before he suggested that was where we were headed (he wasn't getting enough attention). The second time I just laughed and said that it would pass and it did (that was almost 7 years ago the last time). :-)
My husband is the kind of person who starts with his mind made up and it takes a long time for him to consider that there might be a different or better way to do things. It can take me years to change his mind sometimes, but I slowly keep at it and back off when I know I've dished out more than he can handle. :-)
Don't panic, take a breather, and work on a different approach. And she's right, you should work on getting a more enjoyable job in the meantime, since it could be awhile before you make any big changes. Another thing you should do for now is to get some hard numbers on paper and start to get a real handle on expenses. You can do that on your own, to an extent and it will be a good start.
Best of luck with things and congrats on your new addition!!
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Wow- still reading/digesting but everyone's responses are truly thoughtful and insightful. Wish you guys were my neighbors! Thank you!! I'll post some follow up thoughts when I have more time.
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Now? He lives in the exact location I proposed, in the exact type of dwelling I proposed, using the exact approach I proposed.
I am boggled.
Some people just can't get on board with an idea that wasn't "theirs."
That's why you need to hire Leonardo DiCaprio to get inside her mind.
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You are in a rough spot. I feel really badly for you. It would be nearly impossible to FIRE with a spouse who opposes it to the point of threatening divorce. People tend to change during the course of their lives and sometimes those changes can really threaten marriages. I do not envy you for the challenges you face in trying to get your spouse on board with a Mustachian lifestyle. Some people are so obsessed with status and material goods that a minimalist lifestyle is repugnant to them.
Yup.
It's unfortunate, because at age 39, OP and his wife are doing very well. If they decided to give up the rat race, they could live comfortably for the rest of their lives if they chose to do so.
In much of the country, they could buy a big, relatively new home for well under $250k. They could live like kings even without a job. I'm not an expert in OP's field, but I'm guessing that he could do "telecommute" consulting and earn extra money if he chose to do so (if only to placate the wife).
He's in a tough spot. He's willing to think outside the box. His wife is not. She just wants to run the rat race like everyone else.
Work hard climb the corporate ladder and buy stuff to impress "friends" and family who are doing the same, then die with a household full of stuff (in a tony neighborhood, of course) without ever having enjoyed life. It is, unfortunately, the American way.
Hopefully, he can get his wife to take off her blinders and consider an alternative way of life. It won't be easy, though. He'll probably need to ween her off the rat race crack in increments. I'd tell him to dump her materialistic ass, but that isn't so easy to do once married with kids.
Anyway, I hope he can slowly break her from the "expectations" track and get her to, you know, actually live her own life.
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So...anyone had a spouse that was so dead set against being financially independent? Or reacted this strongly to it? Any advice?
Sorry to be blunt, but get rid of the spouse.
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Good god. OP, I am sorry.
Folks, take this lesson, get on the same damn page with your SO before marriage/kid.
OP, you could divorce now and retire in a year. Assume that you get half the assets and a million is plenty to retire on.
I grew up with divorced parents and it can be okay....
If they didn't have a kid, I'd agree. Dump her like a bad habit.
But once the kid arrives, it gets a lot harder.
Hopefully, he can get her to understand that life like everyone else lives it (running the rat race in endless pursuit of ever more and more "stuff") isn't the best course, because you only get ONE LIFE, and wasting it pursuing the expectations of others, only to die tired and unfulfilled, ain't as great as it sounds...
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I strongly encourage everyone to re-read zippyc's post. IMHO, she nailed it.
The problem may not be the spouse, but the timing. For now, focus on adjusting to the newborn and helping your wife feel normal. Once this massive change in your lives is adjusted to, I suspect she'll be a lot more receptive to new ones.
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Wow! A big possibility of FI and high emotions. Mrs. Pete and doubledown got it right. This will take some time and a lot of talk and planning for the future. Could be awesome for your family.
For me, New York real estate seems impossible to understand.
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I agree with others re: timing. Focus on the baby for now and revisit in a few months once you both have had more time to adjust.
As a new mom myself, I can say that she needs your understanding, patience and love right now. Although I would never use the "D" word (we agreed to never use it), I can understand where she's coming from. I had PPD and it is rough stuff. Does she have a support network built where you are? The idea of moving to a new place with no support and a newborn would be enough to cause any new mother to lose it. There's a reason why they say it takes a village.
Any posters who suggested to divorce her must not have children.
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So much good advice here.
Your timing sucks. Because: 3 month old baby, hormonal wife. I've known many a woman who has come out with "I don't want to go back to work" when their mat leave was over. And...yeah, many of them quit, they worked it out, and you cut the mama some slack.
So here's the thing. My youngest is just two years old. I'm still, in many ways, emotionally fragile. It's still a difficult balance, I am still sleep-deprived (teething, fevers from him from time to time and just my own stress for me).
I think with my first son I was two before I felt human. Now I'm at two and counting. You've got some time before you can bring this up again - and well, do it slowly.
Start simply by cutting expenses however you can. Do some research on costs to live elsewhere, private school costs, costs to live in Europe and KEEP IT TO YOURSELF. Just absorb it for now.
I live in Coastal So Cal where there is a big group of folks of a similar mentality - private schools, "only the best", trips to Europe, etc. My husband and I made the decision to just not go down that path.
You guys need to discuss your goals also. Our neighbors like to travel a lot. They have decided to move to Costa Rica for a year, and are just trying to decide "when". Now, I don't know when they decided this, exactly, or how it came about. But I do no that I like routine and if my husband ever suggest that I'd probably FREAK OUT.
So I'm sure your wife is freaking out about changes and the idea of leaving the city. Clearly you aren't moving to a small rural town anywhere. Have you ever talked about Europe? I do have friends who lived/worked there for a year or two or three and really enjoyed the experience. Perhaps with research, you could point out that you could sell the housing you have in NYC, use that money to finance a year in Europe, and then when you come back, downshift to a slightly less expensive place. The advantage to a long-term plan like that, and the advantage to Europe - is, I'm assuming, that you both won't be working like crazy during that time - so you can get "used" to downshifting.
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Can't hold back from adding: Even if she may have post-partum depression, do not diagnose her with this. You can drive her to a doctor, who might, just don't be the one to do so. It doesn't feel supportive. I remember how crazed I felt, not entirely ironically, when my boyfriend's mum gave me a book on it. A few years later, I realized I had had the anxiety form of it, but man, having someone pitch this to me just made things worse. (Also, when the hell would I have read a book?!? And implemented its suggestions?!? See? It made me crazy.)
There are very real biological/biochemical bases for PPD, and that can require medical treatment. But I would propose that, short of there being danger to the child, the optimal response of everyone around the mother is to simply provide support. Take baby out for walks. But first do all the cleaning and cooking and everything else that is not breastfeeding, so that your wife is recovering in a clean, cared for home. Make her wonderful meals and snacks, especially of foods that are not only delicious but truly nourishing (protein, fat) -that can go a long way to relieving PPD, fatigue, blood sugar irregularities, etc. If the baby is nursing in the night, and not cosleeping, bring the baby to the mother. Etc.
Not pitching to her that she is "ill", even if she is, will go a long way. Doing everything besides the breastfeeding itself, and ensuring she has lots of breaks, will not only relieve many symptoms of mild to moderate PPD, it will likely help her to feel happier in general, and it will do heaps to build her trust in, respect for, and admiration of you... and that will naturally leave her open to new possibilities in future. And if she gets to witness what a phenomenal father and co-parent you are, she may start to feel that you quitting your job is a boon to her and to Baby. And I know there's lots of joking about women wanting the father to do everything the way she wants, but if you can provide the support in the way that really works for her, really eases her not only physically but mentally, I think you will ultimately gain from that too.
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I'd go ballistic too, if I thought you were serious, or I were feeling tired, or hungry.
There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.
Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.
Wrong! She's 3 months post partum....there are still a lot of hormones raging in that body then add in sleep deprivation (with all 6 of mine I didn't feel anything near normal until they were around 5 months old). Did she "overreact" probably for normal day to day life but anyone whose given birth will relate more to where she's coming from than where he's coming from. I wouldn't judge either of the spouses in the op too harshly...they are still in the newborn stage where everything is a blurr.
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Well, everyone who posted about *potential* post-partum depression, raging hormones, bad timing and such...beat me to it. Some folks are better able to handle all the changes that having a child throws at them with grace, and others aren't as lucky.
Should two adults be able to have civil discourse about life-changing events? Certainly. Will it happen if one or both of them feel emotionally or physically compromised and in fear of the future? Not likely.
Part of the reason that some teenagers act the way they do (taking stupid risks, outwardly rebelling against authority, trying too hard to fit in, losing interest in prior 'childish' hobbies) is because of the new chemicals that are cruising through their system. New mothers go through some of the same types of mental processes during and after pregnancy simply because it's a new experience.
If this behavior (throwing the D word at you, lashing out fearfully) is generally not reflective of your wife, then definitely +1 to seeing a counselor. Hopefully with time she will be more open to your thoughts and feelings, especially as this is so important to you.
Best of luck.
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I wanted to speak to poverty. Maybe do some research on what it's like to live in poverty. I think Nickle and Dimed is a good book. The stress from growing up poor is not something you get over, you can only learn to cope. I know I will be looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life, wondering if someone is going to take everything away from me.
Thoughts like these used to make me feel really angry. What has helped is cognitive behavior therapy. I'm reading Feeling Good right now. Just be really sensitive to that. The amount of money you have isn't going to make her feel better if she doesn't find peace with the unknown.
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How much of that 2.3m is in your name vs hers? How about the income?
If my wife were to suddenly decided that I needed to be miserable for the rest of my life, I would start counseling as a precursor to divorce proceedings. If she values you as a partner or a person, she'll come around. If she insists that you need to suffer so that she can have European vacations, I would not feel bad about separating and starting over. If she's so set on a fancypants lifestyle, let her contemplate funding it herself instead of milking you dry.
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I just read Gone Girl, so I should probably be disqualified from even replying to this, but I do want to mention this: My brother and his wife were in a similar situation a few years ago with similar sentiments on both sides. The only difference is that they didn't yet have a child. What ended up swaying my sister-in-law was that they could move to the Bay Area and be within commuting distance of San Francisco, have a house with a nice backyard, AND have decent weather year-round while still getting ahead financially. All of those spoke to her as lifestyle improvements, so they made the leap, and they're both quite happy. He still works, but at a much saner, more family-friendly company.
So, point being, it might be helpful to figure out if there's a way of selling the wife on this idea based on things that are important to her.
And, don't read Gone Girl.
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I want to second mozar's comment about how your wife's feelings about money might have been shaped by growing up poor. If she dreamed as a child of living the good life, being able to provide the very best opportunities for her child, and being able to travel and live comfortably and be financially secure, and worked hard to get the education and job that would allow her to do that, and married a man who seemed to share her goals and values, you can understand how she might be upset if she felt like you were trying to take that dream away from her, especially if she likes her job, or at least sees it as well worth the trouble for the good life it provides her. I don't know your wife's situation specifically, but the idea of not working can also seem a lot less appealing to someone who grew up with a parent who wanted/needed to work, but couldn't find a job.
I think when you go into this conversation with your wife, the first thing you need to do is to try to understand, really deeply, what your wife's dreams are for her/your shared life, and why that particular lifestyle is important to her. And you need to move forward with a conviction that your wife's dreams are every bit as valid, and every bit as important to work towards, as yours. A lot of people here have been extremely dismissive of your wife's goals, calling her obsessed with status and what-not, and obviously her desires (private school, big city, lavish travel) aren't ones I share either. But we all have to decide where we fall on the time-money spectrum (how much of our time we're willing to spend on work to get the things that we want in life). And, yes, your wife seems to be standing in the way of what you want right now, but from her perspective, you're standing in the way of what she wants. And it sounds like you started out sharing similar values to her and are only now starting to change your perspective, so you can understand how she'd be startled and upset.
None of this is to say you can't get some or all of what you want. I think that being able to provide a wonderful life for your child, being financially secure, traveling and living comfortably can all be very compatible with a mustachian lifestyle. There are lots of possible options in terms of you perhaps starting to freelance and providing most of the childcare, moving to a less expensive city that still has the qualities she cares most about, working towards some higher number goal that will allow you to do some things that are important to your wife but still will allow you both to retire early, etc., etc., etc. But there's no way to have a productive conversation about these details until you really understand what matters to your wife and why, and treat the problem as one where you're both working towards figuring out how to get as much of what both of you want as possible.
Good luck to you! I hope you report back to the forum sometime in the future and let us know how things go.
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So- I hate my career/job in web consulting.
We are both 39 and have a 3 month old.
I'm on fmla leave with the baby and am dreading the prospect of returning to work on a few weeks.
I haven't read through all the replies yet, but there are some great suggestions.
Have you thought about the approach of saying you want to be a Stay At Home Dad?
If you suggest that you are doing it for the baby, rather than yourself, she might take it better. Also, you can say it's just a trial for a year or two while the baby is young, so she doesn't feel like it's a forever thing. By the time baby is a toddler she might have warmed up to making the arrangement permanent.
FYI, this is the approach we have taken. DH is SAHD while I continue to work for a few more years.
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Have you thought about the approach of saying you want to be a Stay At Home Dad?
If you suggest that you are doing it for the baby, rather than yourself, she might take it better. Also, you can say it's just a trial for a year or two while the baby is young, so she doesn't feel like it's a forever thing. By the time baby is a toddler she might have warmed up to making the arrangement permanent.
FYI, this is the approach we have taken. DH is SAHD while I continue to work for a few more years.
+1 It may be too soon to bring this up, but if she is back to work already this is a great option, if you're up for it.
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She threatened divorce from the get go? I've known marriages where divorce wasn't mentioned after adultery was discovered. And she drops this nuke on conversation 1? You may have other issues besides diverging life expectations.
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Has anyone stopped to think that somewhere out there on a board dedicated to private schools or European travel is a post something like this?
OMG!!!! My husband has gone off the deep end! Last night, out of the blue, after a dreadful day in the office (I miss little one soooooo much every second we're apart) he drops the bomb that he wants to quit work! What the he** is he thinking! We've got a nanny to hire, a house to pay off, private preschool in just a couple of years, we always planned on traveling the world together. How on earth could he do this to us!!??? What are we supposed to live on?? Where are we suposed to live? Has he actually even thought about this!!!??? I was so gobsmacked that he could do this to us that I actually ended up using the word 'divorce' during our argument. Has anyone else ever dealt with this? What did you do to convice your SO that he needs to face reality?
Ok, so no one who takes some of their valuable time to seek out and post on a board dedicated to frugality and early retirement thinks the husband is unreasonable and that the wife went off the deep end. But from the wife's perspective (and that of the vast majority of upper income folks in the western world) the husband is the one who fell off his rocker. And from a wife who has a hubby with communication issues (he always lets things fester until he explodes, I've learned to deal) the wife may have heard "I'm miserable with every aspect of my life" meaning....YOU no longer make me happy.
OP, keep the dialog open, use many of the tips in this thread BUT most importantly, use your FMLA to look at other employment opportunities so that at least you are not miserable at work. Then over the next few years work toward FIRE.
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How much of that 2.3m is in your name vs hers? How about the income?
If my wife were to suddenly decided that I needed to be miserable for the rest of my life, I would start counseling as a precursor to divorce proceedings. If she values you as a partner or a person, she'll come around. If she insists that you need to suffer so that she can have European vacations, I would not feel bad about separating and starting over. If she's so set on a fancypants lifestyle, let her contemplate funding it herself instead of milking you dry.
Word
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It's definitely helpful hearing the female perspective. I agree that my timing sucked. While it's been stewing in the back of my head for a while, we had some stressful stuff happen with our place recently and combined with my imminent return to work raised it to the level of "blurting it out". Guess I did upset the "mama bear". Also agree with those who suggested waiting till our child is atkeast 1 before making any big changes probably makes sense.
In general my wife suffers from anxiety and did have a kind of crazy childhood. Money is a particular hot button with her- the word "budget" is not something she's fond of. That being said I woukdnt say she's necessarily into "status spending"'- and maybe when compared to other NYC moms she knows - she's "low key" in her expectations. Shes very conservative with things like investing (doesn't trust the stock market) and likes to be over insured.
The idea a few of you raised of interim steps makes sense to me. One possibility I've thought of is to suggest buying a vacation house. We recently visited some friends of hers who live all/part of the year in Lake Tahoe. We both enjoyed it.
I was surprised to learn that you can buy a 3br house there in the 500s. It's near water (obviously), within a few hours of San Francisco and she's got friends who live in Tahoe and SF. So maybe rent it out most of the year to bring income in with the possibility of eventually moving there. People from all over the world visit that area, so it could provide a way to "house swap" wjth a European if she wanted us to take a European vacation. But the idea of owning real estate so far away is a bit scary. And I'm getting way ahead of myself.
The harder piece of the puzzle is work. Im so disengaged/uninterested/burned out in my job that it is hard to think outside the box there.
For now, I don't think my wife will be comfortable with me in anything less than a full time job making atkeast 100k. Which means sticking wjth what I'm doing but maybe at a different company. I've been on a few interviews but nothing has gone anywhere. I suspect that my lack of passion for this career path is somewhat obvious. I secretly hope that I get laid off, but given my wife's feeling that will likely lead to even bigger trouble.
I've floated the idea of being a SAHD and that was also a non starter for her. For now we are going the nanny route (at 2k/month no less)!
As far as private education goes, my wife works in the education field (and is very opposed to things like the common core and the "testing" mandated by no child left behind. She thinks that the best private schools foster creativity and give more individual attention. I disagree but she's "the expert". I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition. She seemed to like that idea. Of course, the schools she likes are either in NYC or Boston so that doesn't help wjth cost of living.
Someone asked what "her number" would be. I don't think she could answer that. But I suspect it would be something that would allow you to keep our exact lifestyle wjth an extremely safe withdraw rate (like 2%). Maybe 10 million. Which is never going to happen realistically.
Any other ideas for interim steps? It is hard to get my head around the idea of being financially but not emotionally ready for FI.
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It's definitely helpful hearing the female perspective. I agree that my timing sucked. While it's been stewing in the back of my head for a while, we had some stressful stuff happen with our place recently and combined with my imminent return to work raised it to the level of "blurting it out". Guess I did upset the "mama bear". Also agree with those who suggested waiting till our child is atkeast 1 before making any big changes probably makes sense.
In general my wife suffers from anxiety and did have a kind of crazy childhood. Money is a particular hot button with her- the word "budget" is not something she's fond of. That being said I woukdnt say she's necessarily into "status spending"'- and maybe when compared to other NYC moms she knows - she's "low key" in her expectations. Shes very conservative with things like investing (doesn't trust the stock market) and likes to be over insured.
The idea a few of you raised of interim steps makes sense to me. One possibility I've thought of is to suggest buying a vacation house. We recently visited some friends of hers who live all/part of the year in Lake Tahoe. We both enjoyed it.
I was surprised to learn that you can buy a 3br house there in the 500s. It's near water (obviously), within a few hours of San Francisco and she's got friends who live in Tahoe and SF. So maybe rent it out most of the year to bring income in with the possibility of eventually moving there. People from all over the world visit that area, so it could provide a way to "house swap" wjth a European if she wanted us to take a European vacation. But the idea of owning real estate so far away is a bit scary. And I'm getting way ahead of myself.
The harder piece of the puzzle is work. Im so disengaged/uninterested/burned out in my job that it is hard to think outside the box there.
For now, I don't think my wife will be comfortable with me in anything less than a full time job making atkeast 100k. Which means sticking wjth what I'm doing but maybe at a different company. I've been on a few interviews but nothing has gone anywhere. I suspect that my lack of passion for this career path is somewhat obvious. I secretly hope that I get laid off, but given my wife's feeling that will likely lead to even bigger trouble.
I've floated the idea of being a SAHD and that was also a non starter for her. For now we are going the nanny route (at 2k/month no less)!
As far as private education goes, my wife works in the education field (and is very opposed to things like the common core and the "testing" mandated by no child left behind. She thinks that the best private schools foster creativity and give more individual attention. I disagree but she's "the expert". I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition. She seemed to like that idea. Of course, the schools she likes are either in NYC or Boston so that doesn't help wjth cost of living.
Someone asked what "her number" would be. I don't think she could answer that. But I suspect it would be something that would allow you to keep our exact lifestyle wjth an extremely safe withdraw rate (like 2%). Maybe 10 million. Which is never going to happen realistically.
Any other ideas for interim steps? It is hard to get my head around the idea of being financially but not emotionally ready for FI.
I really think some counseling is in order...You guys seem to be on a crash and burn path, there is always ill-timing of things and life throws curveballs but together there needs to be some compromise on how to work through things not threats...IMHO
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Boston isn't the cheapest place in the nation, but it's cheaper than NYC. Why not float a move there? Especially if you live in a gentrifying area vs established, you'd get more for the money.
Your job prospects should be similar in either location, right? Does she have job opportunities there (public schools require a Masters there, but private schools may not) that would reduce child education expenses?
Start cutting expenses and start investing. Keep interviewing for new positions and put on a happy face when you do so. Find ways to make yourself incrementally happier and take to-do items off of her plate when things settle down. You're going to have to prove to her that downshifting is beneficial to both of you.
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In the short term, I suggest negotiating with both your wife and your employer another 1-2 months of leave from work for you. You can use that time to demonstrate to your wife that there are advantages to having one of you at home- save child care money, bond with baby, get stuff done, let her focus on work without worrying, etc. She may find that she really likes you being home, and supports the idea of you stopping work. Then you can revisit your conversation about long-term goals.
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I had PPD and it is rough stuff.
I didn't have PPD, I had a very supportive husband and family who was thrilled with the baby . . . and I still found adjusting to a first baby to be "rough stuff". We had a baby who didn't like to sleep, and even a normal labor takes some recovery. It takes time to get your body back to normal. It takes time to feel confident in baby-care tasks, especially if you're back to work.
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rjg, I wish you the best of luck. Regarding the posters who've simply said "find a good lawyer" and the like, keep it in the back of your mind but I don't think that's really what you should be focusing on. From the sounds of your posts, you are a committed family man and are trying to make this work. The first post sounded pretty harsh, but your next two were much softer.
There are more important things in life than FIRE. Clearly your family is more important to you, so do everything you can to find a happy medium.
Run some numbers with you making $50k (not $100k or $200k) and using some of your savings to fund your lifestyle. If that will work, show them to your wife along with describing your dream $50k job. Clearly it's not in your current career (it's not for me either, you're not alone).
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In the short term, I suggest negotiating with both your wife and your employer another 1-2 months of leave from work for you. You can use that time to demonstrate to your wife that there are advantages to having one of you at home- save child care money, bond with baby, get stuff done, let her focus on work without worrying, etc. She may find that she really likes you being home, and supports the idea of you stopping work. Then you can revisit your conversation about long-term goals.
I floated that idea actually - she was not into it.
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Oh, boy.
First of all, I'm sorry. This is obviously a big deal to you and it's not going to get resolved quickly. On the flip side, don't give up yet.
Here's my advice.
1. Figure out how to get happier at work. The job isn't going anywhere soon, given how far apart you and your wife are on your goals. Luckily I've never had a job I hated going to, but lots of people on these boards can give you advice about either job-hunting or getting through the day mentally.
2. Wait until everyone's sleeping through the night and your wife feels like she is back to herself after the birth. You have work to do and you need mental resources to do it that parents of a newborn are short on.
3. Get counseling. You are not a case of a couple with good communication skills and common goals who are just going through new baby stress, exhaustion and hormones. You guys have a lot to explore and work through together, and if your wife's reaction was typical of her communication style, having a disinterested third party in the room will help. And just a personal suggestion, to take or leave...I would postpone coming up with solutions until you are closer together on the big picture. Going to specifics right now when you haven't agreed on the underpinning is just throwing fuel on the fire.
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rjg, I wish you the best of luck. Regarding the posters who've simply said "find a good lawyer" and the like, keep it in the back of your mind but I don't think that's really what you should be focusing on. From the sounds of your posts, you are a committed family man and are trying to make this work. The first post sounded pretty harsh, but your next two were much softer.
There are more important things in life than FIRE. Clearly your family is more important to you, so do everything you can to find a happy medium.
Run some numbers with you making $50k (not $100k or $200k) and using some of your savings to fund your lifestyle. If that will work, show them to your wife along with describing your dream $50k job. Clearly it's not in your current career (it's not for me either, you're not alone).
Thanks - this is something that might be possible. Although I'd still want to move to a lower cost situation before attempting it. BUT- I know some of her resistance stems from the idea of using any savings.
Also, I'd really have to love that job or else it would kind of feel like the worst of both worlds. About 1.5 of our NW is home equity so buying a cheaper place would have to be a prerequisite too. I know she is annoyed with our building so there is some hope there.
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Elizabeth Warren has made the interesting point that families with two working parents are somewhat less stable than those with one parent working. Which is counter-intuitive because most people think two income streams are better than one. But Warren makes the point that in a one-income family, if the earner loses their job or if unexpected expenses come up, the other one can look for work. I assume your wife wants you to keep working for the sake of security. But think of it; if you were living on your wife's income alone and you were a SAHD (earning at least 2k a month by cutting the nanny and as a family you'd be in a lower tax bracket, etc.), you'd actually have more stability because you could go back to work if need be. So maybe that's the first step, cut your expenses down enough that you're just living on one income. Put it to your wife that in your current situation you're living on a knife edge. But what you're envisioning will give you more security.
If you'd known she was going to freak out, it would have been even better because you could have done this to begin with. 'Why am I tightening our budget? Oh, you know, because now with the baby I want to make sure we have a big margin of safety,' etc. Then after she was used to the changes you could spring the trap! 'I just think about how many enrichment activities I could do with the kid if I were a stay-at-home parent. I was talking to these people who have a parenting group in Park Slope and their children seem so well-adjusted!'
Maybe you can post a case study of your budget and get more specific advice from people here about how to cut the fat in ways that don't affect your lifestyle. I bet there are a lot. This is going to have a lot of benefits. You're going to get an understanding of how much you personally are contributing to budget bloat (if you are). Your wife is going too see that you're interested in sacrifices, not just enjoying yourself. And you're going to want to do this anyway before ERing.
It's true that mustachianism is about the whole lifestyle, not just cutting the cable bill, but honestly, if the first way you present the argument is 'we HAVE to make these huge changes' like moving to another city or not doing private school then you're just as guilty as your wife of thinking in too absolute and broad terms. I feel where you're coming from in terms of being frustrated at work, but the answer is going to be a creative solution that works for YOUR family, not just following a blueprint because it's how some guy on the internet does it.
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In the short term, I suggest negotiating with both your wife and your employer another 1-2 months of leave from work for you. You can use that time to demonstrate to your wife that there are advantages to having one of you at home- save child care money, bond with baby, get stuff done, let her focus on work without worrying, etc. She may find that she really likes you being home, and supports the idea of you stopping work. Then you can revisit your conversation about long-term goals.
I floated that idea actually - she was not into it.
So in situations like this, what are her objections?
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In the short term, I suggest negotiating with both your wife and your employer another 1-2 months of leave from work for you. You can use that time to demonstrate to your wife that there are advantages to having one of you at home- save child care money, bond with baby, get stuff done, let her focus on work without worrying, etc. She may find that she really likes you being home, and supports the idea of you stopping work. Then you can revisit your conversation about long-term goals.
I floated that idea actually - she was not into it.
So in situations like this, what are her objections?
We already hired a nanny and my wife is worried about
A) me losing my job if I took time off without fmla protection
B) losing more of my income (I make the majority of the money)
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If your wife keeps stonewalling you on discussing budgets, money issues, retirement planning and career issues, then you should heed what posters have said and find a counselor. I would also suggest a fee-based financial adviser.
The counselor may help you address her insecurity about money and a financial adviser can serve as an objective intermediary in financial discussions - so that they stop becoming heated and personal. Be wary of a commission based financial adviser, because your wife's insecurity about money will make her susceptible to being sold things you don't need.
But in all seriousness, start at the bottom. Right now, your wife doesn't even like the word "budget" and she refuses to entertain any reduction in your standard of living - so good luck cutting cable. And she doesn't want to touch savings - so good luck reducing your income. Everything you suggest seems to be taken as an attack on her security.
She's putting you on a hampster wheel of constantly needing to increase your income in order to add things to your life without ever taking anything away. But you're not able to address that without provoking an extreme knee-jerk reaction that you're trying to rob her of something (or that something catastrophic will happen). The truth is that her emotional hangups about money are probably too big and deep for you to handle on your own.
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Assorted further thoughts, many based on rjg's follow-up comments:
While it's been stewing in the back of my head for a while, we had some stressful stuff happen with our place recently and combined with my imminent return to work raised it to the level of "blurting it out".
Two distinct red flags here. One, you let this "stew," (didn't discuss it with your wife until you "blurted it out."). The communication problems here are not unilateral. Two, as you mention WRT bad timing -- besides the welcoming-a-new-baby bit (which is huge), you've also been dealing with stressful stuff in your place. So -- right. Background level of stress for your wife not conducive to contemplating new, unexpected, and unwanted changes.
The idea a few of you raised of interim steps makes sense to me. One possibility I've thought of is to suggest buying a vacation house. We recently visited some friends of hers who live all/part of the year in Lake Tahoe. ...
I was surprised to learn that you can buy a 3br house there in the 500s. ... But the idea of owning real estate so far away is a bit scary. And I'm getting way ahead of myself.
Dude. Yes, you are. If the goal is FIRE, buying an illiquid, distant asset for a half million that it will cost you money even to access (airfare, time) never mind maintaining is not the right first (or second, or third) move.
I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition.
Uh -- you're a web consultant; why don't you try to find a job at such a place? For the same reasons, and maybe you'd find the educational (provision) setting a more pleasant place to work. It might also offer you desired flexibility now that you have a little one.
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Reading through the comments on this thread, there's a pretty stark breakdown by gender of those who think your wife overreacted (men) and those who get exactly where she's coming from or think her response is within the range of understandable (women). And a third of the men commenting seem horrified that your wife would mention divorce, while another third seem to figure it's best if you run hire a divorce attorney to initiate proceedings as fast you can, yourself (I exaggerate for effect, but the basic pattern is real). I don't know quite what to make of that, but I think it's significant.
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In terms of monthly spending:
2k nanny
1k travel
2k apt maintenance
100: homeowners
1k food
800: garage, car, gas, insurance, metro cards
100: cable and internet
50: wife's gym
200: other personal care (nails, massage,hair)
160: cell phones
80: dry cleaning
100: baby stuff
200: club fees
400: cleaning person
250: storage
A blind monkey could easily cut this in half but whenever I've tried to reign in any of these items it sparks resistance. Of the things I have direct control over, I could maybe cut 200-300/month without her caring.
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It's definitely helpful hearing the female perspective. I agree that my timing sucked. While it's been stewing in the back of my head for a while, we had some stressful stuff happen with our place recently and combined with my imminent return to work raised it to the level of "blurting it out". Guess I did upset the "mama bear". Also agree with those who suggested waiting till our child is atkeast 1 before making any big changes probably makes sense.
In general my wife suffers from anxiety and did have a kind of crazy childhood. Money is a particular hot button with her- the word "budget" is not something she's fond of. That being said I woukdnt say she's necessarily into "status spending"'- and maybe when compared to other NYC moms she knows - she's "low key" in her expectations. Shes very conservative with things like investing (doesn't trust the stock market) and likes to be over insured.
The idea a few of you raised of interim steps makes sense to me. One possibility I've thought of is to suggest buying a vacation house. We recently visited some friends of hers who live all/part of the year in Lake Tahoe. We both enjoyed it.
I was surprised to learn that you can buy a 3br house there in the 500s. It's near water (obviously), within a few hours of San Francisco and she's got friends who live in Tahoe and SF. So maybe rent it out most of the year to bring income in with the possibility of eventually moving there. People from all over the world visit that area, so it could provide a way to "house swap" wjth a European if she wanted us to take a European vacation. But the idea of owning real estate so far away is a bit scary. And I'm getting way ahead of myself.
The harder piece of the puzzle is work. Im so disengaged/uninterested/burned out in my job that it is hard to think outside the box there.
For now, I don't think my wife will be comfortable with me in anything less than a full time job making atkeast 100k. Which means sticking wjth what I'm doing but maybe at a different company. I've been on a few interviews but nothing has gone anywhere. I suspect that my lack of passion for this career path is somewhat obvious. I secretly hope that I get laid off, but given my wife's feeling that will likely lead to even bigger trouble.
I've floated the idea of being a SAHD and that was also a non starter for her. For now we are going the nanny route (at 2k/month no less)!
As far as private education goes, my wife works in the education field (and is very opposed to things like the common core and the "testing" mandated by no child left behind. She thinks that the best private schools foster creativity and give more individual attention. I disagree but she's "the expert". I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition. She seemed to like that idea. Of course, the schools she likes are either in NYC or Boston so that doesn't help wjth cost of living.
Someone asked what "her number" would be. I don't think she could answer that. But I suspect it would be something that would allow you to keep our exact lifestyle wjth an extremely safe withdraw rate (like 2%). Maybe 10 million. Which is never going to happen realistically.
Any other ideas for interim steps? It is hard to get my head around the idea of being financially but not emotionally ready for FI.
Are you not emotionally ready for FI, or is your wife telling you that?
Just saying.
Also, not into status spending? Put down the crack pipe, sir. Spending 110,000k a year, on two people married, that's a good one.
You guys are a wasteland of spending. Wow.
Wait for the wife to calm down and talk to her again in a few months. I'd consider recording the convo. ...
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How about finding a job in Europe?
In 2003 I got fed up with my job and asked for a transfer to Brussels. I was asked to return to NYC in 2005 but 2 years later I resigned and got a job in Paris. It helped me a lot to keep work interesting and if work at time is boring, I can just take a short flight to Rome or Madrid for the weekend.
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It is intersting to see how the responses break down along gender lines to some extent. Most men say "divorce!" whike women advocate a more nuanced approach. To me, divorce is a lose/lose that accomplishes nothing
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How about finding a job in Europe?
In 2003 I got fed up with my job and asked for a transfer to Brussels. I was asked to return to NYC in 2005 but 2 years later I resigned and got a job in Paris. It helped me a lot to keep work interesting and if work at time is boring, I can just take a short flight to Rome or Madrid for the weekend.
Yeah I've already been looking to see if I can transfer to a European office
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I have found that it is much easier to make changes in myself, than in other people.
Why is your monthly food spending so high? Do you know how to cook? Could you make delicious affordable meals for your family?
Tackle the spending you have control over. Take shorter showers. Pack a lunch. Clean the house to such a high degree that you can convince your wife that cancelling the maid makes sense. Change your cell phone plan. Sell some toys. If you can show her that you're willing to "suffer" with less, then maybe she'll be more willing to participate as well.
This worked with my spouse, but it did take probably a year for the ball to get rolling.
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Schedule a meeting when you are both well rested, sit her down and first apologize for bringing things up in a off the cuff reaction while emotional. Then explain where you are coming from, that you hate your job and can't see yourself staying there long-term. State you need to work out a solution that works for both of you. You envision looking for a job that may entail a pay cut to $50k, which means your household income would drop. You think you guys could either cut the following items, or she could get a different job. But be firm that needing to leave your job and find one that is better is non-negotiable.
Btw, you'll want to research beforehand what types of jobs you would be interested in and qualified for.
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In the short term, I suggest negotiating with both your wife and your employer another 1-2 months of leave from work for you. You can use that time to demonstrate to your wife that there are advantages to having one of you at home- save child care money, bond with baby, get stuff done, let her focus on work without worrying, etc. She may find that she really likes you being home, and supports the idea of you stopping work. Then you can revisit your conversation about long-term goals.
I floated that idea actually - she was not into it.
So in situations like this, what are her objections?
We already hired a nanny and my wife is worried about
A) me losing my job if I took time off without fmla protection
B) losing more of my income (I make the majority of the money)
I'm definitely more of a "yours mine ours" advocate here, but this fact mAkes her demands more bothersome to me. I assumed for some reason that you made similar amounts. I think it's ridiculous to demand someone make themselves miserable at a job they hate just so I don't have to budget (we're not talking about anything near the hardship she experienced growing up). I sympathize with the emotional issues, and your best returning inferential right now might be a really good therapist (individually and as a couple-- you need to understNd the issues and be able to determine if they can be resolved or not)
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I have found that it is much easier to make changes in myself, than in other people.
Why is your monthly food spending so high? Do you know how to cook? Could you make delicious affordable meals for your family?
Tackle the spending you have control over. Take shorter showers. Pack a lunch. Clean the house to such a high degree that you can convince your wife that cancelling the maid makes sense. Change your cell phone plan. Sell some toys. If you can show her that you're willing to "suffer" with less, then maybe she'll be more willing to participate as well.
This worked with my spouse, but it did take probably a year for the ball to get rolling.
I agree. I do know how to cook and do so when I can (a lot now that I'm home) but;
-when I work, I typically get home at 730 and am exhausted
-about 400 of that is "going out" which is influenced by my wife
-my cell phone is paid for by my work
-I pack my lunch about 50% of the time
-we don't pay for water
-I don't have any toys to sell
The truth is thst without even getting into the nuts and bolts we'd easily save 4k from just living in a cheaper area and not working. But that requires a larger change which gets back to the original problem. And what makes this so disheartening and frustrating
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I have found that it is much easier to make changes in myself, than in other people.
Why is your monthly food spending so high? Do you know how to cook? Could you make delicious affordable meals for your family?
Tackle the spending you have control over. Take shorter showers. Pack a lunch. Clean the house to such a high degree that you can convince your wife that cancelling the maid makes sense. Change your cell phone plan. Sell some toys. If you can show her that you're willing to "suffer" with less, then maybe she'll be more willing to participate as well.
This worked with my spouse, but it did take probably a year for the ball to get rolling.
I agree. I do know how to cook and do so when I can (a lot now that I'm home) but;
-when I work, I typically get home at 730 and am exhausted
-about 400 of that is "going out" which is influenced by my wife
-my cell phone is paid for by my work
-I pack my lunch about 50% of the time
-we don't pay for water
-I don't have any toys to sell
The truth is thst without even getting into the nuts and bolts we'd easily save 4k from just living in a cheaper area and not working. But that requires a larger change which gets back to the original problem. And what makes this so disheartening and frustrating
I think it's great that you're already doing so well, and on the right track. Try and think of the BIG picture, long term. This is a marathon, not a sprint. If I were in your shoes, my first priority would be to look into how to enjoy work more. Explore that.
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PS - this is a post that compiles links that I used to make myself feel better when I HATED my job. I hope there is something helpful in there for you: http://libraryjoy.com/2013/04/21/love-your-job/
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And a third of the men commenting seem horrified that your wife would mention divorce, while another third seem to figure it's best if you run hire a divorce attorney to initiate proceedings as fast you can, yourself (I exaggerate for effect, but the basic pattern is real).
Ha I noticed that too! I think there might even be overlap. 'She leapt right to divorce? You should divorce her for that!'
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As a mom and recent convert to MMM I feel obliged to respond because I'm still close enough to the dark side to put myself in the shoes of the spouse.
Do all you commenters who are immediately telling the OP to run for the hills realize that you come across as total assholes? Has anyone making these comments ever been in a lasting relationship? Relationships involve compromise on BOTH sides.
On the face of things it sounds like the OP is having a mid-life crisis. Now he's not running out to buy a muscle car and find a bimbo girlfriend, but he is (seemingly out of nowhere) telling his wife and mother of his new baby that he wants to quit his job and dramatically change the lives that they have built and planned together. It also sounds like he's being a bit selfish. "My newfound MMM values totally trump your traditional American values. Never mind that we've been living and planning this comfortable secure life together. I've seen the light and I want to change." OP-was this the first time you've mentioned early retirement/MMM philosophy to your wife? I'd advise a more gentle approach to converting her.
I say this as a mom of 3 who stumbled upon MMM during my last FMLA leave when desperately searching for some way to stay home with my kiddos. OP - I don't know what your wife is thinking or feeling. But I do know what I want - and that is security. If I were your wife, your proposed changes would be terrifying to me. You are taking away her perceived security. What are you offering in its place?
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It was probably too much at once. This has to be a process. And unfortunately, it sounds like a few years might have to pass before the light gets turned on for your spouse.
It took me about six months to get my wife on board with the FIRE concept. At first she had many of the same concerns the OP listed.
I used patience, lots of hints along the way, and nailed it with spreadsheets illustrating cash flow and a written plan describing lifestyle and contingency plans.
Once she bought in, she said "Why didn't we do this two years ago?" She is now more motivated to FIRE than I am.
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Yes, it was interesting to note the division of opinions on divorce in this topic. IMHO if you can absolutely, positively see yourself happier WITHOUT your wife (and vice versa for her, once she is calmer), and are willing to let your child live in separate households and potentially have step-parents who may not share your values, then and only then should a break be considered. Notice that money is nowhere to be found in that statement.
Is keeping your family together worth the cost of losing FIRE? Now restate the question in reverse and answer it again. Only you can answer if she refuses to compromise.
If she is as defensive and prone to verbal strikes as you say expect a terribly nasty and lengthy legal process. Speaking from experience, even civil divorces are terribly taxing on both parties mentally, physically, and obviously in the wallet as well. And those are the 'easy' kind.
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As a mom and recent convert to MMM I feel obliged to respond because I'm still close enough to the dark side to put myself in the shoes of the spouse.
Do all you commenters who are immediately telling the OP to run for the hills realize that you come across as total assholes? Has anyone making these comments ever been in a lasting relationship? Relationships involve compromise on BOTH sides.
On the face of things it sounds like the OP is having a mid-life crisis. Now he's not running out to buy a muscle car and find a bimbo girlfriend, but he is (seemingly out of nowhere) telling his wife and mother of his new baby that he wants to quit his job and dramatically change the lives that they have built and planned together. It also sounds like he's being a bit selfish. "My newfound MMM values totally trump your traditional American values. Never mind that we've been living and planning this comfortable secure life together. I've seen the light and I want to change." OP-was this the first time you've mentioned early retirement/MMM philosophy to your wife? I'd advise a more gentle approach to converting her.
I say this as a mom of 3 who stumbled upon MMM during my last FMLA leave when desperately searching for some way to stay home with my kiddos. OP - I don't know what your wife is thinking or feeling. But I do know what I want - and that is security. If I were your wife, your proposed changes would be terrifying to me. You are taking away her perceived security. What are you offering in its place?
Hence why myself and others have suggested they get both personal and financial counseling! In fairness to the OP and "MEN" everything he has brought to her he gets shut down. Not to mention he hates his job. You cant make others happy very long if your not happy. I think her reaction be it hormones or insecurity doesn't make a difference. They need guidance and perhaps if someone else can spell it out or figure away for both of them to make it work better now than later. Trying to solve it any other way when one person keeps saying no will not work!
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I agree. I do know how to cook and do so when I can (a lot now that I'm home) but;
-when I work, I typically get home at 730 and am exhausted
-about 400 of that is "going out" which is influenced by my wife
I struggle with this too. But improving it's doable. Do you and your wife share cooking, or is it something that falls in your court? If the former, what works for us is that we each have days we are responsible for, though DH is still annoyingly prone to want to eat out and it's hard for me on the days I'm responsible as I WOH (he's RE) and get home and want supper ready. But I've found that with some planning ahead (and a crockpot) it's manageable. The next evening I'm responsible for is Friday and I've decided already it's going to be BLTs -- I'm going to run to Trader Joe's, get some precooked bacon, the L and the T and a decent sourdough bread and patch these together in advance -- takes hardly any time at all -- plus (probably) a tomato salad or maybe a gazpacho -- either can be whipped together in under 10 minutes and left in the fridge. I also often do a big pot of rice and/or roast veggies and keep those in the fridge for use over the week. Pasta's simple too, and both ground beef (etc.) and shrimp can be cooked and frozen, then added to other recipes as needed.
Why not bump those packed lunches up to 80%? That's still one lunch out per week.
And as for
The truth is thst without even getting into the nuts and bolts we'd easily save 4k from just living in a cheaper area and not working.
... well, fine. But I wouldn't move either, so, you know -- there are plenty of people who feel this way. I'm not saying it's ideal or that it should be set in stone for all eternity, but it's a big change and one you introduced (IMO) at a lousy time, so -- focus on what you can do, not what you can't (for now).
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As a mom and recent convert to MMM I feel obliged to respond because I'm still close enough to the dark side to put myself in the shoes of the spouse.
Do all you commenters who are immediately telling the OP to run for the hills realize that you come across as total assholes? Has anyone making these comments ever been in a lasting relationship? Relationships involve compromise on BOTH sides.
On the face of things it sounds like the OP is having a mid-life crisis. Now he's not running out to buy a muscle car and find a bimbo girlfriend, but he is (seemingly out of nowhere) telling his wife and mother of his new baby that he wants to quit his job and dramatically change the lives that they have built and planned together. It also sounds like he's being a bit selfish. "My newfound MMM values totally trump your traditional American values. Never mind that we've been living and planning this comfortable secure life together. I've seen the light and I want to change." OP-was this the first time you've mentioned early retirement/MMM philosophy to your wife? I'd advise a more gentle approach to converting her.
I say this as a mom of 3 who stumbled upon MMM during my last FMLA leave when desperately searching for some way to stay home with my kiddos. OP - I don't know what your wife is thinking or feeling. But I do know what I want - and that is security. If I were your wife, your proposed changes would be terrifying to me. You are taking away her perceived security. What are you offering in its place?
Hence why myself and others have suggested they get both personal and financial counseling! In fairness to the OP and "MEN" everything he has brought to her he gets shut down. Not to mention he hates his job. You cant make others happy very long if your not happy. I think her reaction be it hormones or insecurity doesn't make a difference. They need guidance and perhaps if someone else can spell it out or figure away for both of them to make it work better now than later. Trying to solve it any other way when one person keeps saying no will not work!
Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
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A blind monkey could easily cut this in half but whenever I've tried to reign in any of these items it sparks resistance. Of the things I have direct control over, I could maybe cut 200-300/month without her caring.
Well, given that you are married with a kid I think that the following steps would be appropriate.
1. Give it some time while you're still in the baby stage. Focus on modeling good behavior on the areas that you can control. Have fun together in ways that don't involve a plane ticket to Europe. Rein in yourself, not her.
2. As you gradually shift your own habits, love your family and be good to them.
3. If your goals and your wife's goals continue to be radically different and you can't find compromise, consider counseling.
4. If you and your wife can't see eye to eye, you may end up in a position of choosing FIRE or choosing to stay married. This is a worst case scenario of course, but in the back of your mind start to contemplate which you would choose. Some things are deal breakers, and only the two of you can say if this is for you.
My heart goes out to you man. I don't think the D-word should ever be contemplated lightly. I hope the two of you can work it out.
(hugs)
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In the short term, I suggest negotiating with both your wife and your employer another 1-2 months of leave from work for you. You can use that time to demonstrate to your wife that there are advantages to having one of you at home- save child care money, bond with baby, get stuff done, let her focus on work without worrying, etc. She may find that she really likes you being home, and supports the idea of you stopping work. Then you can revisit your conversation about long-term goals.
I floated that idea actually - she was not into it.
So in situations like this, what are her objections?
We already hired a nanny and my wife is worried about
A) me losing my job if I took time off without fmla protection
B) losing more of my income (I make the majority of the money)
She really sees you as a provider it sounds like.
I would stress the idea of 'opportunity cost.' If I understand right it sounds like you're spending a quarter of your monthly income on the nanny. Your wife may not have thought of it that way. Most people don't. Run the numbers for her including the tax implications.
You haven't said what your investments are like right now. Do you have an investment plan? How much are your investments throwing off in dividends? Talking about investments as an income stream makes this whole thing sound a lot more reasonable than just 'living off savings' which has negative connotations for most people. Also, you haven't said anything to suggest this but I can't help but feel that your wife is the type of person who's invested in what their spouse achieves. While men can often maintain their self-respect while having a stay at home partner, women tend to worry they'll be judged for being married to a 'loser' or 'slacker.' And your professional success and work ethic may be something she really admires about you. She may be worried that you're changing as a person. Talking about the transition in terms of you becoming an in-house investment manager might be one way to go (even if secretly you're just doing index funds).
At the end of the day, if she just sees you as a paycheck with legs, you're screwed. You know what to do in that case. In the meantime I'll assume that you're here because you think advice might actually help.
Look on the bright side: you say your wife freaks out at the idea of touching savings. That's not contrary to mustachian mindset. As far as first steps for budgeting go, it sounds like she'll like the idea of increasing your savings.
I agree. I do know how to cook and do so when I can (a lot now that I'm home) but;
-when I work, I typically get home at 730 and am exhausted
-about 400 of that is "going out" which is influenced by my wife
-my cell phone is paid for by my work
-I pack my lunch about 50% of the time
-we don't pay for water
-I don't have any toys to sell
The truth is thst without even getting into the nuts and bolts we'd easily save 4k from just living in a cheaper area and not working. But that requires a larger change which gets back to the original problem. And what makes this so disheartening and frustrating
With respect, because I know you were responding to specific questions, but this sounds kind of complainypants. You built your life just as much as your wife did. You willingly bought a place that costs 2k a month. All these fixed costs are ones that you participated in taking on. Take responsibility.
And 1k a month for food? Even if you're saying 400 of that is eating out for entertainment, how the hell are you spending 600 on groceries for 2.5 people? You're exhausted at 7:30 in the evening? Do you go to bed then? Then you're not exhausted. Do something productive with your time. And anyway you can batch cook on the weekends. Why are you eating out for lunch half the time? Why do you have a car? Why are you paying for storage? Sell that shit you have in storage. What are these club fees you're paying? 1k for travel and you already have a car? Is that still true even now that you have the kid? Can't you take more frugal trips? What 100 are you spending on kid's stuff? Search some of the threads here for getting diapers cheaply. Other stuff you should be getting as hand-me-downs or gifts.
I agree with you that it sounds like the bigger stuff would be an easy way to save money, but don't get tunnel vision about it. I'll say it again, your wife does sound very my-way-or-the-highway which doesn't bode well for the relationship, but from what you've written so do you a bit.
And think in terms of trade-offs and perks. 'If we move to Queens and get our housing costs down to 1k, we could put an extra 500 in RJG, Jr.'s college fund and still come out ahead.' 'If the market goes down, think of how nice it will be to have cashed out some of our equity now!' 'If we don't fritter away 1k in traveling each month, we could add an extra week to our annual vacation and still save a ton!' 'All of our friends with kids are moving to Brooklyn and Queens, that's just what people do at our stage of life.'
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It's definitely helpful hearing the female perspective. I agree that my timing sucked. While it's been stewing in the back of my head for a while, we had some stressful stuff happen with our place recently and combined with my imminent return to work raised it to the level of "blurting it out". Guess I did upset the "mama bear". Also agree with those who suggested waiting till our child is atkeast 1 before making any big changes probably makes sense.
In general my wife suffers from anxiety and did have a kind of crazy childhood. Money is a particular hot button with her- the word "budget" is not something she's fond of. That being said I woukdnt say she's necessarily into "status spending"'- and maybe when compared to other NYC moms she knows - she's "low key" in her expectations. Shes very conservative with things like investing (doesn't trust the stock market) and likes to be over insured.
The idea a few of you raised of interim steps makes sense to me. One possibility I've thought of is to suggest buying a vacation house. We recently visited some friends of hers who live all/part of the year in Lake Tahoe. We both enjoyed it.
I was surprised to learn that you can buy a 3br house there in the 500s. It's near water (obviously), within a few hours of San Francisco and she's got friends who live in Tahoe and SF. So maybe rent it out most of the year to bring income in with the possibility of eventually moving there. People from all over the world visit that area, so it could provide a way to "house swap" wjth a European if she wanted us to take a European vacation. But the idea of owning real estate so far away is a bit scary. And I'm getting way ahead of myself.
The harder piece of the puzzle is work. Im so disengaged/uninterested/burned out in my job that it is hard to think outside the box there.
For now, I don't think my wife will be comfortable with me in anything less than a full time job making atkeast 100k. Which means sticking wjth what I'm doing but maybe at a different company. I've been on a few interviews but nothing has gone anywhere. I suspect that my lack of passion for this career path is somewhat obvious. I secretly hope that I get laid off, but given my wife's feeling that will likely lead to even bigger trouble.
I've floated the idea of being a SAHD and that was also a non starter for her. For now we are going the nanny route (at 2k/month no less)!
As far as private education goes, my wife works in the education field (and is very opposed to things like the common core and the "testing" mandated by no child left behind. She thinks that the best private schools foster creativity and give more individual attention. I disagree but she's "the expert". I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition. She seemed to like that idea. Of course, the schools she likes are either in NYC or Boston so that doesn't help wjth cost of living.
Someone asked what "her number" would be. I don't think she could answer that. But I suspect it would be something that would allow you to keep our exact lifestyle wjth an extremely safe withdraw rate (like 2%). Maybe 10 million. Which is never going to happen realistically.
Any other ideas for interim steps? It is hard to get my head around the idea of being financially but not emotionally ready for FI.
Let's see: vacation home. I guess I'd suggest against it - instead of actually buying a home in Tahoe, just rent one off VRBO a few times first. If you find one you like, you can rent the same one every year for a few years. It can get you a taste of a different life, and it's a good way to test it out.
Private schools: eh, I'm not in the education business. I'm an engineer, so is my husband. We like "traditional" school, and I'm a fan of common core (when I was a kid, I learned to memorize things. I'm good at that. I've had to work hard to overcome that. Common core is teaching my kid how to do fast math in his head, in a way I just started learning - from him, my 8 year old). I've heard great things about alternative types of schooling, like Montessori, and I think it really just depends on the kid.
Job disengagement - I've been there. My company has become a crappy place to work with really bad culture. I've had 7 bosses in 6 years and have moved around a lot, and have started looking for a new job. My enthusiasm comes and goes, but really - what I try to do, when I'm well rested, is find new projects at work that I find interesting. It could be a new development project, or simply just learning. Like right now I'm putting some time into scripts and Excel programming for automated data analysis and charts. I don't particularly like doing this but it's a huge time saver. All I can say is that - FOR NOW - it seems like your wife is unwilling to let you quit, so try to make the best of the situation. For all those who say "dump her", well, you've got a baby - that's not going to happen. Good luck.
And seriously, research the Europe thing. I think it sounds like an awesomely cool thing to do.
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I agree. I do know how to cook and do so when I can (a lot now that I'm home) but;
-when I work, I typically get home at 730 and am exhausted
-about 400 of that is "going out" which is influenced by my wife
I struggle with this too. But improving it's doable. Do you and your wife share cooking, or is it something that falls in your court? If the former, what works for us is that we each have days we are responsible for, though DH is still annoyingly prone to want to eat out and it's hard for me on the days I'm responsible as I WOH (he's RE) and get home and want supper ready. But I've found that with some planning ahead (and a crockpot) it's manageable. The next evening I'm responsible for is Friday and I've decided already it's going to be BLTs -- I'm going to run to Trader Joe's, get some precooked bacon, the L and the T and a decent sourdough bread and patch these together in advance -- takes hardly any time at all -- plus (probably) a tomato salad or maybe a gazpacho -- either can be whipped together in under 10 minutes and left in the fridge. I also often do a big pot of rice and/or roast veggies and keep those in the fridge for use over the week. Pasta's simple too, and both ground beef (etc.) and shrimp can be cooked and frozen, then added to other recipes as needed.
Why not bump those packed lunches up to 80%? That's still one lunch out per week.
And as for
The truth is thst without even getting into the nuts and bolts we'd easily save 4k from just living in a cheaper area and not working.
... well, fine. But I wouldn't move either, so, you know -- there are plenty of people who feel this way. I'm not saying it's ideal or that it should be set in stone for all eternity, but it's a big change and one you introduced (IMO) at a lousy time, so -- focus on what you can do, not what you can't (for now).
Why do you get home so late? Can you get home earlier? You make most of the money, I'm sure there are job "expectations", but you know - I leave at 4:30 pm every day. Nope, I'm not getting raises or promotions, but I get home by 5:30.
Can you prep at night or in the morning? Use the crock pot? Cook on the weekends? I know it sucks to work those hours AND pick up all this extra work, but...if you want to save money, you have to do it.
I pack my lunch every day, and my husband does 4x a week or more. I initially had resistance to packing lunches - he ate out every Friday. But now that I have delicious options for lunch on Fridays, he only eats out every other Friday.
Still, cut yourself some slack here with the 3 month old baby. I'd wager you both are exhausted. I know we are. We are 44 and 46 with 8 and 2 year olds. It's exhausting.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
I don't know enough about the OP or his wife to know, but some people use words more freely than you seem to. It's just a word and some people may be more carefree with their choice of words than you are.
Here's how I see the situation:
1. Husband threatened wife by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle.
2. Wife threatened back by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle.
Personally, I read the original post as if there were some hyperbole in it. Lots of people threaten divorce in a joking manner. Lots of people also say they'll kill someone, but I don't take them at their word. I have no idea whether it was exaggeration, truthful or somewhere in between. Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't see anything to convince me that this couldn't have been just an emotional outcry that they'll laugh about later.
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I don't know enough about the OP or his wife to know, but some people use words more freely than you seem to. It's just a word and some people may be more carefree with their choice of words than you are.
Here's how I see the situation:
1. Husband threatened wife by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle.
2. Wife threatened back by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle.
Personally, I read the original post as if there were some hyperbole in it. Lots of people threaten divorce in a joking manner. Lots of people also say they'll kill someone, but I don't take them at their word. I have no idea whether it was exaggeration, truthful or somewhere in between. Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't see anything to convince me that this couldn't have been just an emotional outcry that they'll laugh about later.
+1
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As a mom and recent convert to MMM I feel obliged to respond because I'm still close enough to the dark side to put myself in the shoes of the spouse.
Do all you commenters who are immediately telling the OP to run for the hills realize that you come across as total assholes? Has anyone making these comments ever been in a lasting relationship? Relationships involve compromise on BOTH sides.
On the face of things it sounds like the OP is having a mid-life crisis. Now he's not running out to buy a muscle car and find a bimbo girlfriend, but he is (seemingly out of nowhere) telling his wife and mother of his new baby that he wants to quit his job and dramatically change the lives that they have built and planned together. It also sounds like he's being a bit selfish. "My newfound MMM values totally trump your traditional American values. Never mind that we've been living and planning this comfortable secure life together. I've seen the light and I want to change." OP-was this the first time you've mentioned early retirement/MMM philosophy to your wife? I'd advise a more gentle approach to converting her.
I say this as a mom of 3 who stumbled upon MMM during my last FMLA leave when desperately searching for some way to stay home with my kiddos. OP - I don't know what your wife is thinking or feeling. But I do know what I want - and that is security. If I were your wife, your proposed changes would be terrifying to me. You are taking away her perceived security. What are you offering in its place?
Hence why myself and others have suggested they get both personal and financial counseling! In fairness to the OP and "MEN" everything he has brought to her he gets shut down. Not to mention he hates his job. You cant make others happy very long if your not happy. I think her reaction be it hormones or insecurity doesn't make a difference. They need guidance and perhaps if someone else can spell it out or figure away for both of them to make it work better now than later. Trying to solve it any other way when one person keeps saying no will not work!
He brought it up when she was three months post-birth. Even MFTs say not to change the family situation/ worry about minor issues for the first six months post baby because of the huge change and sleep deprivation. No one is stable in that time period.
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rjg:
Just to clarify I am saying this as a woman, but I am not a mother.
My take on all this is that the small steps you need to take are to first and foremost is to start separating your finances. I know a lot of people on this site are for the one pot o' money. But if you have different goals and you both are working you really need to start setting up a hers / yours/ and kid & house account. You need to do this slowly and make sure you always phrase this as for the future and for the family. When you have separate accounts you will have the freedom to invest & grow your money. Having the safety blanket of an investment portfolio that you know you could live off of makes it much easier to put up with the dread at work.
Trust me I do understand the dread of a burn out job. I've been there with the working 100+ hours. In some field you have to do that since you are rated against your peers and they are also doing the same. That is just what it takes sometimes. But the problem is if you are a clear thinker, you see that all this work and burn-out will just get you more work & burn-out. Planning for an early retirement is one thing that can make the soul-crushing corporate grind more manageable.
I really cannot fathom being in your shoes since I have never married and I don't like children. But I have been with my fiancé for over 7 years so its sort of liked married but without the paperwork. We do the totally separate finances. We have rather different thought on retirement. But if I stick with my plan, I'll retire early, and he'll keep working. We're both okay with that. Two people can be together and be happy and have very different plans & goals.
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Your word of the day: Compromise.
I'm not sure what your values are but I love travel. For me, while FI is important, I would not pinch pennies to the extreme and live miserably just to reach FI a year or two earlier than originally planned. I also enjoy living on the West Coast and chose a small condo to keep housing more affordable rather than living in a large mansion in the middle of nowhere.
If you value travel, then tell her how much you enjoy traveling (even if she's heard it many times) and how you'd like to go to X, Y, and Z countries/cities in Europe.. but you don't wish to live paycheck and paycheck and want to continue building the family's financial security. See which areas she's willing to compromise in, be it private schools, a big house, location, eating out, etc.
At the same time, see if she's open to the idea of you finding a lower paying but much more enjoyable job or at least one with shorter hours.
Fyi, I think you might also want to read Ramit Sethi's "I Will Teach You to be Rich" book, despite MMM's criticism's of it. IMO, I think it's a more workable approach to your family's finances and your wife's personality.
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As a mom and recent convert to MMM I feel obliged to respond because I'm still close enough to the dark side to put myself in the shoes of the spouse.
Do all you commenters who are immediately telling the OP to run for the hills realize that you come across as total assholes? Has anyone making these comments ever been in a lasting relationship? Relationships involve compromise on BOTH sides.
On the face of things it sounds like the OP is having a mid-life crisis. Now he's not running out to buy a muscle car and find a bimbo girlfriend, but he is (seemingly out of nowhere) telling his wife and mother of his new baby that he wants to quit his job and dramatically change the lives that they have built and planned together. It also sounds like he's being a bit selfish. "My newfound MMM values totally trump your traditional American values. Never mind that we've been living and planning this comfortable secure life together. I've seen the light and I want to change." OP-was this the first time you've mentioned early retirement/MMM philosophy to your wife? I'd advise a more gentle approach to converting her.
I say this as a mom of 3 who stumbled upon MMM during my last FMLA leave when desperately searching for some way to stay home with my kiddos. OP - I don't know what your wife is thinking or feeling. But I do know what I want - and that is security. If I were your wife, your proposed changes would be terrifying to me. You are taking away her perceived security. What are you offering in its place?
Hence why myself and others have suggested they get both personal and financial counseling! In fairness to the OP and "MEN" everything he has brought to her he gets shut down. Not to mention he hates his job. You cant make others happy very long if your not happy. I think her reaction be it hormones or insecurity doesn't make a difference. They need guidance and perhaps if someone else can spell it out or figure away for both of them to make it work better now than later. Trying to solve it any other way when one person keeps saying no will not work!
Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
And have you dealt with sleep deprivation, PPD even have a child or are a MD/PhD in the field? Then, you may not understand the reactions that would come from threaten ones livelyhood, after a child was born (also threatening the child's lifestyle) especially when at stressed state? If my husband had decided to flip out after my daughter was born and do something risky with our finances, like quit his job, I would have flipped out too.
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My take on all this is that the small steps you need to take are to first and foremost is to start separating your finances. I know a lot of people on this site are for the one pot o' money. But if you have different goals and you both are working you really need to start setting up a hers / yours/ and kid & house account. You need to do this slowly and make sure you always phrase this as for the future and for the family. When you have separate accounts you will have the freedom to invest & grow your money. Having the safety blanket of an investment portfolio that you know you could live off of makes it much easier to put up with the dread at work.
I would put money on her brain actually exploding if he so much as whispers anything about separate finances.
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My take on all this is that the small steps you need to take are to first and foremost is to start separating your finances. I know a lot of people on this site are for the one pot o' money. But if you have different goals and you both are working you really need to start setting up a hers / yours/ and kid & house account. You need to do this slowly and make sure you always phrase this as for the future and for the family. When you have separate accounts you will have the freedom to invest & grow your money. Having the safety blanket of an investment portfolio that you know you could live off of makes it much easier to put up with the dread at work.
I would put money on her brain actually exploding if he so much as whispers anything about separate finances.
You are probably correct.
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As a mom and recent convert to MMM I feel obliged to respond because I'm still close enough to the dark side to put myself in the shoes of the spouse.
Do all you commenters who are immediately telling the OP to run for the hills realize that you come across as total assholes? Has anyone making these comments ever been in a lasting relationship? Relationships involve compromise on BOTH sides.
On the face of things it sounds like the OP is having a mid-life crisis. Now he's not running out to buy a muscle car and find a bimbo girlfriend, but he is (seemingly out of nowhere) telling his wife and mother of his new baby that he wants to quit his job and dramatically change the lives that they have built and planned together. It also sounds like he's being a bit selfish. "My newfound MMM values totally trump your traditional American values. Never mind that we've been living and planning this comfortable secure life together. I've seen the light and I want to change." OP-was this the first time you've mentioned early retirement/MMM philosophy to your wife? I'd advise a more gentle approach to converting her.
I say this as a mom of 3 who stumbled upon MMM during my last FMLA leave when desperately searching for some way to stay home with my kiddos. OP - I don't know what your wife is thinking or feeling. But I do know what I want - and that is security. If I were your wife, your proposed changes would be terrifying to me. You are taking away her perceived security. What are you offering in its place?
Hence why myself and others have suggested they get both personal and financial counseling! In fairness to the OP and "MEN" everything he has brought to her he gets shut down. Not to mention he hates his job. You cant make others happy very long if your not happy. I think her reaction be it hormones or insecurity doesn't make a difference. They need guidance and perhaps if someone else can spell it out or figure away for both of them to make it work better now than later. Trying to solve it any other way when one person keeps saying no will not work!
Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
And have you dealt with sleep deprivation, PPD even have a child or are a MD/PhD in the field? Then, you may not understand the reactions that would come from threaten ones livelyhood, after a child was born (also threatening the child's lifestyle) especially when at stressed state? If my husband had decided to flip out after my daughter was born and do something risky with our finances, like quit his job, I would have flipped out too.
He didn't DO anything. He told her what he wanted.
If my partner was miserable and wanted to make a change, I would WANT him to talk to me. That's what I am here for. We are supposed to support and love each other. If he came to me with a proposal about our lives and I wasn't into it, I'd work with him to find another way for him to be happy, not threaten to leave him. I certainly do not understand people who want their partner to be miserable for the rest of their lives. Why would you want to be with someone who freaks out on you when you try to talk to them about your future?
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There is a huge difference between being totally opposed to an idea and throwing a tantrum. Nobody is saying she has to like his idea, or even do it, just be a civil adult about it.
There's also a huge difference between being yourself and being yourself 3 months after giving birth, with at least 3 months of sleep deprivation under your belt (and probably more, since late pregnancy is uncomfortable enough to interfere with most people's sleep). And if Wife is back at work and missing baby while Husband is not working and home with baby, that could be an added stressor for her.
Anyone who would 'go ballistic' and threaten to leave the person they supposedly care about most in the world because they are tired or hungry is a petulant child with no self control who should not be involved in any serious decision-making to begin with.
Generally true, but see above. The timing sucks. I'm even inclined to blame the OP's timing on sleep deprivation (and given that this couple is just 3 months post-partum and sleep deprived, who knows how coherently the idea was expressed?).
I would wait until the kid is at least a year old, or whenever the OP feels that the parents have gotten their groove back, to raise this again.
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Look, it's unfortunate that she freaked out and lobbed a "divorce" grenades into what should have been a normal debate/conversation. But that makes her a bad arguer, not a bad spouse. We don't know for sure if she will come around, it was just one argument. She has hang ups about money. It's probably a minefield. But almost everything can be navigated in a solid marriage. They'll work it out or they won't, only time will tell, but it's not such an emergency that he needs to immediately call the divorce attorney.
People get into dumb arguments. Heck, I got into an argument last night with my husband because I wanted to adopt a poor displaced dog and he was being a heartless bastard. Sure, no one threatened divorce, but there was no reason we couldn't have a conversation about a dog without it spiraling into some kind of feud. It just wasn't a great night for it. It happens. You don't get divorced over it.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
The OP did not say his wife threatened divorce. The word he used was "suggested." She simply brought up an idea. A talking point, if you will. In response to which, your first suggestion was that the OP could divorce her :)
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I don't know enough about the OP or his wife to know, but some people use words more freely than you seem to. It's just a word and some people may be more carefree with their choice of words than you are.
Here's how I see the situation:
1. Husband threatened wife by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle.
2. Wife threatened back by proposing a drastic change to their agreed upon lifestyle.
Personally, I read the original post as if there were some hyperbole in it. Lots of people threaten divorce in a joking manner. Lots of people also say they'll kill someone, but I don't take them at their word. I have no idea whether it was exaggeration, truthful or somewhere in between. Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't see anything to convince me that this couldn't have been just an emotional outcry that they'll laugh about later.
+1
+2. I once threw out the "D" word in an argument. I believe it was something along the lines of, "Well, then, why don't you just divorce me if you think I'm such a fucking miserable person to be around?!?!" He later told me that really hurt. I've never done it since.
To those of you who keep saying things along the lines of "divorce her" or pointing out that she's "crazy" (and yes, I've noticed that roughly 90% of you are men--think about that for a second) that's probably the least helpful thing you could possibly say in this situation. You don't know the wife's side of this. Even aside from that, it doesn't sound like it's a route the OP is willing to go, so your "advice" is going to be disregarded in any case. Try being a bit more constructive and a smidgen less critical about someone you don't know, whom the OP cares about very much. He did marry her, after all. Would you really like it if some random person on the internet told you to divorce your spouse for any reason at all? I know I wouldn't, because you know nothing of my relationship except what I've chosen to post and that's purely superficial stuff.
To the OP, you'll be able to work this out. You'll know if counseling seems right for the two of you. Honestly, there were times when my baby was about that age when we were exhausted and I thought counseling might be needed because we weren't seeing eye to eye on anything. We worked things out on our own, as the fog of new parenthood cleared. It takes time, and it takes sleep. Even doing something as nice and simple as letting her sleep in on a weekend can help a lot. It hasn't been said recently, but congrats on the baby. I can understand your desire to stay home because watching them grow and learn is the best thing ever, and I hate that I'm missing out on some of that by working.
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Yes, it was interesting to note the division of opinions on divorce in this topic. IMHO if you can absolutely, positively see yourself happier WITHOUT your wife (and vice versa for her, once she is calmer), and are willing to let your child live in separate households and potentially have step-parents who may not share your values, then and only then should a break be considered. Notice that money is nowhere to be found in that statement.
Is keeping your family together worth the cost of losing FIRE? Now restate the question in reverse and answer it again.
And not to be too dollars and cents about it, but divorce might wipe out his ability to ER anyway. I've heard the court system isn't very understanding of the higher earner wanting to downshift. He might lose the apartment to her as well as owing her alimony to keep her in the style to which she and the child are accustomed. I'm guessing, to continue being mercenary, that she'd rather marry again if she's so set on having a certain lifestyle and a husband who keeps the bit between his teeth, but at 39 and with a newborn it wouldn't necessarily happen.
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In the short term, I suggest negotiating with both your wife and your employer another 1-2 months of leave from work for you. You can use that time to demonstrate to your wife that there are advantages to having one of you at home- save child care money, bond with baby, get stuff done, let her focus on work without worrying, etc. She may find that she really likes you being home, and supports the idea of you stopping work. Then you can revisit your conversation about long-term goals.
I floated that idea actually - she was not into it.
So in situations like this, what are her objections?
We already hired a nanny and my wife is worried about
A) me losing my job if I took time off without fmla protection
B) losing more of my income (I make the majority of the money)
She really sees you as a provider it sounds like.
I would stress the idea of 'opportunity cost.' If I understand right it sounds like you're spending a quarter of your monthly income on the nanny. Your wife may not have thought of it that way. Most people don't. Run the numbers for her including the tax implications.
You haven't said what your investments are like right now. Do you have an investment plan? How much are your investments throwing off in dividends? Talking about investments as an income stream makes this whole thing sound a lot more reasonable than just 'living off savings' which has negative connotations for most people. Also, you haven't said anything to suggest this but I can't help but feel that your wife is the type of person who's invested in what their spouse achieves. While men can often maintain their self-respect while having a stay at home partner, women tend to worry they'll be judged for being married to a 'loser' or 'slacker.' And your professional success and work ethic may be something she really admires about you. She may be worried that you're changing as a person. Talking about the transition in terms of you becoming an in-house investment manager might be one way to go (even if secretly you're just doing index funds).
At the end of the day, if she just sees you as a paycheck with legs, you're screwed. You know what to do in that case. In the meantime I'll assume that you're here because you think advice might actually help.
Look on the bright side: you say your wife freaks out at the idea of touching savings. That's not contrary to mustachian mindset. As far as first steps for budgeting go, it sounds like she'll like the idea of increasing your savings.
I agree. I do know how to cook and do so when I can (a lot now that I'm home) but;
-when I work, I typically get home at 730 and am exhausted
-about 400 of that is "going out" which is influenced by my wife
-my cell phone is paid for by my work
-I pack my lunch about 50% of the time
-we don't pay for water
-I don't have any toys to sell
The truth is thst without even getting into the nuts and bolts we'd easily save 4k from just living in a cheaper area and not working. But that requires a larger change which gets back to the original problem. And what makes this so disheartening and frustrating
With respect, because I know you were responding to specific questions, but this sounds kind of complainypants. You built your life just as much as your wife did. You willingly bought a place that costs 2k a month. All these fixed costs are ones that you participated in taking on. Take responsibility.
And 1k a month for food? Even if you're saying 400 of that is eating out for entertainment, how the hell are you spending 600 on groceries for 2.5 people? You're exhausted at 7:30 in the evening? Do you go to bed then? Then you're not exhausted. Do something productive with your time. And anyway you can batch cook on the weekends. Why are you eating out for lunch half the time? Why do you have a car? Why are you paying for storage? Sell that shit you have in storage. What are these club fees you're paying? 1k for travel and you already have a car? Is that still true even now that you have the kid? Can't you take more frugal trips? What 100 are you spending on kid's stuff? Search some of the threads here for getting diapers cheaply. Other stuff you should be getting as hand-me-downs or gifts.
I agree with you that it sounds like the bigger stuff would be an easy way to save money, but don't get tunnel vision about it. I'll say it again, your wife does sound very my-way-or-the-highway which doesn't bode well for the relationship, but from what you've written so do you a bit.
And think in terms of trade-offs and perks. 'If we move to Queens and get our housing costs down to 1k, we could put an extra 500 in RJG, Jr.'s college fund and still come out ahead.' 'If the market goes down, think of how nice it will be to have cashed out some of our equity now!' 'If we don't fritter away 1k in traveling each month, we could add an extra week to our annual vacation and still save a ton!' 'All of our friends with kids are moving to Brooklyn and Queens, that's just what people do at our stage of life.'
Fair enough. Sure there's room to cut in all areas. The food grocery bill gets driven by "grassfed","organic" and "whole paycheck (whole foods). I do think the air travel will decrease. The car is used by wife for her job, visiting family, etc. In other words,cutting those things would be seen as taking something away.
What I have mentioned that seemed effective was talking about things I was going to do to "help pay for the nanny". I guess saving in one area so that we can pay for something else resonates. Kinda zero sum but you gotta start somewhere.
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Yes, it was interesting to note the division of opinions on divorce in this topic. IMHO if you can absolutely, positively see yourself happier WITHOUT your wife (and vice versa for her, once she is calmer), and are willing to let your child live in separate households and potentially have step-parents who may not share your values, then and only then should a break be considered. Notice that money is nowhere to be found in that statement.
Is keeping your family together worth the cost of losing FIRE? Now restate the question in reverse and answer it again.
And not to be too dollars and cents about it, but divorce might wipe out his ability to ER anyway. I've heard the court system isn't very understanding of the higher earner wanting to downshift. He might lose the apartment to her as well as owing her alimony to keep her in the style to which she and the child are accustomed. I'm guessing, to continue being mercenary, that she'd rather marry again if she's so set on having a certain lifestyle and a husband who keeps the bit between his teeth, but at 39 and with a newborn it wouldn't necessarily happen.
Yep that's my sense as well. I can't see a scenario where divorce is a good option
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
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Yes, it was interesting to note the division of opinions on divorce in this topic. IMHO if you can absolutely, positively see yourself happier WITHOUT your wife (and vice versa for her, once she is calmer), and are willing to let your child live in separate households and potentially have step-parents who may not share your values, then and only then should a break be considered. Notice that money is nowhere to be found in that statement.
Is keeping your family together worth the cost of losing FIRE? Now restate the question in reverse and answer it again.
And not to be too dollars and cents about it, but divorce might wipe out his ability to ER anyway. I've heard the court system isn't very understanding of the higher earner wanting to downshift. He might lose the apartment to her as well as owing her alimony to keep her in the style to which she and the child are accustomed. I'm guessing, to continue being mercenary, that she'd rather marry again if she's so set on having a certain lifestyle and a husband who keeps the bit between his teeth, but at 39 and with a newborn it wouldn't necessarily happen.
Yep that's my sense as well. I can't see a scenario where divorce is a good option
Good news and bad news.
Good news is, as you said, cutting back on 110,000k/yr would be incredibly easy without losing any luxury (or even private school)
Bad news is, you do need to get your wife on board at least a little.
Start by massively cutting back yourself. Set an example. Wait until she is well rested before any more "conversations"
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.
No I do. I still think threatening divorce over a topic being brought up is over the top.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.
Maybe it is the way I am, or the way I was brought up (with parents divorced at age 4)
But to me it's just something you don't do. To me its a giant red flag, but hey, they are already married with a kid, so I guess a few red flags will have to be allowed at this point.
The vows included "for richer or poorer." even if in her mind he is going to make her poor (they are already rich) she would be violating their vows.
Anyway this is OT now, and I apologize. I had to get that out.
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Yes, it was interesting to note the division of opinions on divorce in this topic. IMHO if you can absolutely, positively see yourself happier WITHOUT your wife (and vice versa for her, once she is calmer), and are willing to let your child live in separate households and potentially have step-parents who may not share your values, then and only then should a break be considered. Notice that money is nowhere to be found in that statement.
Is keeping your family together worth the cost of losing FIRE? Now restate the question in reverse and answer it again.
And not to be too dollars and cents about it, but divorce might wipe out his ability to ER anyway. I've heard the court system isn't very understanding of the higher earner wanting to downshift. He might lose the apartment to her as well as owing her alimony to keep her in the style to which she and the child are accustomed. I'm guessing, to continue being mercenary, that she'd rather marry again if she's so set on having a certain lifestyle and a husband who keeps the bit between his teeth, but at 39 and with a newborn it wouldn't necessarily happen.
Yep that's my sense as well. I can't see a scenario where divorce is a good option
Good news and bad news.
Good news is, as you said, cutting back on 110,000k/yr would be incredibly easy without losing any luxury (or even private school)
Bad news is, you do need to get your wife on board at least a little.
Start by massively cutting back yourself. Set an example. Wait until she is well rested before any more "conversations"
Kind of feels manipulative but I guess I'm going to need to play the martyr a bit. Hey look- I'm packing peanut butter and jelly to pay for the nanny! Sure - lets go out to dinner. Ill eat beforehand and just come with you.
But I'm still not sure what the point is. Even if we cut back on back on food spending there's still an enormous leap from that to moving somewhere cheaper and me not working.
It would be one thing if we both trying to save up to retire early. But savings isn't really the issue here. We either have more than enough already or millions too little. I think the bigger issues for her are me not working and the idea of moving out of a big city.
I agree wjth the poster who asked what's in it for my wife. That's a good way to frame it. Right now, here's what I could say:
-happier husband
-no need to hire an outsude person to take care of kid
-flexibility to move around / travel since I woukdnt be tied down to a job (this one is a double edges sword).
But I think the "house husband" thing is the part that she's most resistant too. It seems very important to her that I work. She always talks about her "loser uncle" who doesn't have a steady job. On the flip side her grandfather on her moms side inherited money and never worked a day in his life. She speaks fondly of him.
I think my best shot is to find a job in a lower cost city that i could be passionate about that might pay less and see how that resonates. Of course, having a job necessitates child care spending. And I have no idea what this mythical unicorn job might be.
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These nickling and diming suggestions are pointless. OP HAS $2.3 MILLION!!! He does not need to pack lunches or cut their heating bill by $10/month to make ER work. For crying out loud, he's already there! He can make it happen by extricating them from their high-priced lifestyle, and he recognizes it. As he said, just by selling their expensive place and going somewhere else, they could have a paid-off house and pretty damn luxurious monthly budget without even trying.
I could have written this OP's story, it is so close to mine. OP's wife is pretty much my wife. In her view, I needed to continue working to satisfy her desire for a large income (mine), status (from my work), and being able to spend as much as we (she) wanted, forever. The fact that I no longer wanted to work and was already FI was immaterial to her, and that was grossly unfair in my view.
Here's what I concluded, after 1,000 discussions with my wife. And let me say that the 1,000 discussions and time made almost no difference in her opinion -- she wanted money and status (she wouldn't say she desired status, but it's couched in all her fears and insecurities, exact same as the OP's). I decided I was not going to continue working unnecessarily for another 15-20 years to satisfy her desires for unnecessary money and status, and I told her that point blank. I told her that outcome is completely off the table, one way or another I'm quitting WAY before then. I told her she could either be part of the solution in how to make that happen, us together, but if she continues to take a "my way or the highway" approach then forget it. Because I would not want to be married to someone who's willing to subjugate me to another 15-20 years in a career I no longer wanted, when we no longer needed any more money (I didn't tell her that part, but it made my own decision-making more clear).
That finally got her attention, on that 1001st discussion. We found a solution for us both, after many painful and long conversations. If I had not been so direct I'd still be working, and she'd be perfectly content to continue the status quo forever. And really, OP's wife is stonewalling far worse than my wife ever did. This is not an ultimatum or threat, it's just laying things out clearly. I think the OP needs to let her know they need to find a way to make it happen for them both, period.
Then the discussions are no longer about "whether" to make it happen, but "how." But make it clear that now that you are FI (and you are completely FI, my friend), then continuing to work with no end in sight, and with no goal, is off the table. Sure, this conversation could wait another month or two.
OP, if you want to see the many similarities and some voyeuristic insight, this thread took a turn towards discussing the exact same issues:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/progress-and-'lessons-learned'-on-pending-fire/msg113361/#msg113361
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The whole point of the nickel and diming was to set an example for his wife. I agree, she needs to be on board for actual progress.
But his hands are tied for now because they have the 3-mo old.
Why a nanny? I would say daycare better for socialization.
I can understand the nanny while the kid is super young, though.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.
Amen to that. For myself, and I'd also wager for the vast majority of parents on this board, there are two eras of your life:
B.C. or Before Children, and
A.D. or After Delivery.
For the folks in here who decry something that the wife said in a moment of passion - isn't there one time, just ONE time where you said something that was regretted later? After the death of a family member, a break-up, an unexpected job loss? I know I have.
OP - I hope that life gets easier for you. This is a rough patch but if you're both willing to communicate then maybe everyone can be happy and achieve their goals in due time. I hope that you find a career (house husband or paid) that speaks to you deeply, where you feel fulfilled and that your spouse finds acceptable. You do have a helluva financial pot and some good points to discuss with wifey.
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These nickling and diming suggestions are pointless. OP HAS $2.3 MILLION!!! He does not need to pack lunches or cut their heating bill by $10/month to make ER work. For crying out loud, he's already there! He can make it happen by extricating them from their high-priced lifestyle, and he recognizes it. As he said, just by selling their expensive place and going somewhere else, they could have a paid-off house and pretty damn luxurious monthly budget without even trying.
I could have written this OP's story, it is so close to mine. OP's wife is pretty much my wife. In her view, I needed to continue working to satisfy her desire for a large income (mine), status (from my work), and being able to spend as much as we (she) wanted, forever. The fact that I no longer wanted to work and was already FI was immaterial to her, and that was grossly unfair in my view.
Here's what I concluded, after 1,000 discussions with my wife. And let me say that the 1,000 discussions and time made almost no difference in her opinion -- she wanted money and status (she wouldn't say she desired status, but it's couched in all her fears and insecurities, exact same as the OP's). I decided I was not going to continue working unnecessarily for another 15-20 years to satisfy her desires for unnecessary money and status, and I told her that point blank. I told her that outcome is completely off the table, one way or another I'm quitting WAY before then. I told her she could either be part of the solution in how to make that happen, us together, but if she continues to take a "my way or the highway" approach then forget it. Because I would not want to be married to someone who's willing to subjugate me to another 15-20 years in a career I no longer wanted, when we no longer needed any more money (I didn't tell her that part, but it made my own decision-making more clear).
That finally got her attention, on that 1001st discussion. We found a solution for us both, after many painful and long conversations. If I had not been so direct I'd still be working, and she'd be perfectly content to continue the status quo forever. And really, OP's wife is stonewalling far worse than my wife ever did. This is not an ultimatum or threat, it's just laying things out clearly. I think the OP needs to let her know they need to find a way to make it happen for them both, period.
Then the discussions are no longer about "whether" to make it happen, but "how." But make it clear that now that you are FI (and you are completely FI, my friend), then continuing to work with no end in sight, and with no goal, is off the table. Sure, this conversation could wait another month or two.
OP, if you want to see the many similarities and some voyeuristic insight, this thread took a turn towards discussing the exact same issues:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/progress-and-'lessons-learned'-on-pending-fire/msg113361/#msg113361
Great post.
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These nickling and diming suggestions are pointless. OP HAS $2.3 MILLION!!! He does not need to pack lunches or cut their heating bill by $10/month to make ER work. For crying out loud, he's already there! He can make it happen by extricating them from their high-priced lifestyle, and he recognizes it. As he said, just by selling their expensive place and going somewhere else, they could have a paid-off house and pretty damn luxurious monthly budget without even trying.
I could have written this OP's story, it is so close to mine. OP's wife is pretty much my wife. In her view, I needed to continue working to satisfy her desire for a large income (mine), status (from my work), and being able to spend as much as we (she) wanted, forever. The fact that I no longer wanted to work and was already FI was immaterial to her, and that was grossly unfair in my view.
Here's what I concluded, after 1,000 discussions with my wife. And let me say that the 1,000 discussions and time made almost no difference in her opinion -- she wanted money and status (she wouldn't say she desired status, but it's couched in all her fears and insecurities, exact same as the OP's). I decided I was not going to continue working unnecessarily for another 15-20 years to satisfy her desires for unnecessary money and status, and I told her that point blank. I told her that outcome is completely off the table, one way or another I'm quitting WAY before then. I told her she could either be part of the solution in how to make that happen, us together, but if she continues to take a "my way or the highway" approach then forget it. Because I would not want to be married to someone who's willing to subjugate me to another 15-20 years in a career I no longer wanted, when we no longer needed any more money (I didn't tell her that part, but it made my own decision-making more clear).
That finally got her attention, on that 1001st discussion. We found a solution for us both, after many painful and long conversations. If I had not been so direct I'd still be working, and she'd be perfectly content to continue the status quo forever. And really, OP's wife is stonewalling far worse than my wife ever did. This is not an ultimatum or threat, it's just laying things out clearly. I think the OP needs to let her know they need to find a way to make it happen for them both, period.
Then the discussions are no longer about "whether" to make it happen, but "how." But make it clear that now that you are FI (and you are completely FI, my friend), then continuing to work with no end in sight, and with no goal, is off the table. Sure, this conversation could wait another month or two.
OP, if you want to see the many similarities and some voyeuristic insight, this thread took a turn towards discussing the exact same issues:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/progress-and-'lessons-learned'-on-pending-fire/msg113361/#msg113361
Thanks! I read a little bit so far and it sounds right up my alley - including the cautionary tale about divorce. Going to read that whole thread.
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Amen to that. For myself, and I'd also wager for the vast majority of parents on this board, there are two eras of your life:
B.C. or Before Children, and
A.D. or After Delivery.
For the folks in here who decry something that the wife said in a moment of passion - isn't there one time, just ONE time where you said something that was regretted later? After the death of a family member, a break-up, an unexpected job loss? I know I have.
OP - I hope that life gets easier for you. This is a rough patch but if you're both willing to communicate then maybe everyone can be happy and achieve their goals in due time. I hope that you find a career (house husband or paid) that speaks to you deeply, where you feel fulfilled and that your spouse finds acceptable. You do have a helluva financial pot and some good points to discuss with wifey.
No I have never flipped out and said something I regret after someone made a suggestion. Sure I have gotten fired up and said stuff that I regret, but those circumstances were totally different. I didn't take it from the original post that this was a heated screaming match or anything, I took it as a level headed, rational suggestion about their lives. He didn't take any action without discussion it. I think flipping out and threatening divorce was a crazy and uncalled for reaction (in this specific situation) no matter how stressed out you are.
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-she thinks it sets a "bad example" if his dad "doesn't work"
-she only wants to live in a major city near the water such as LA, NYC, ..maybe Boston.
-she wants to live in Europe
-she wants us to travel a lot
At the risk of disclosing my true anti-mustachian lifestyle - my budget is $6,000 per month after tax (with an additional $12,000 per year for emergencies built in) in the midwest. For that amount, people own 4,000 sq foot homes with giant back yards (pool optional), send their kids to private school and maintain a countryclub membership, while taking regular vacations. It's a nice life.
But it's not status-heavy NYC rich. And we would suffer a significant lifestyle blow by moving to Europe (which we have considered, because I have citizenship). If status is what's important to your wife, then ER is probably out of the picture - especially since she has an ingrained problem with the male spouse not working.
I'm not married. While I agree with a lot of the compromise advice on this thread, I don't feel that qualified to opine on a sticky situation. I see that you've agreed to defer this discussion until you and your wife feel better, and that seems like a good short-term solution.
I can talk about moving to Europe, since that's something in the works for me right now.
I ran the numbers on moving from NYC to Madrid. I hope that she thinks Madrid is good enough.
You would need around 2,933.63€ (3,937.76$) in Madrid to maintain the same standard of life that you can have with 6,600.00$ in New York, NY (assuming you rent in both cities).
That's the gist. See the attachment for a detailed view of expenses. If you live in Europe, it can be a good base to travel.
One of the local Mustachians (Buck) just moved his family to Spain.
http://bucking-the-trend.com/spain-preparation-green-light/ It might be good for you to read about his journey.
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Wow, yes, I also assumed that you and your wife were earning similar amounts of money. It seems like her resistance is especially unfair in that case--her insisting that you continue on in a job that you hate to maintain your joint lifestyle, when she's already granted herself the luxury of foregoing those jobs for one that pays less, but she actually likes. It also makes her resistance, from a purely selfish point of view, more understandable, since she's getting the lifestyle perks that can be paid for with your high wages without having to suffer the shitty job. It's very hard for me to understand any fair-minded, unselfish way she could possibly object to you contributing equally to the household and childcare and taking a job that you like better that pays similarly to what hers does, for example. In order for this to work, you need to not only care about her wants and needs, but she needs to care about yours. You're really the only person here in this forum who can gauge whether or not that's the case. She knows you're miserable in your job. Does she care at all about that? Or is she perfectly happy for you to suffer as long as you're keeping the family flush?
If the latter is true, there are a lot more problems in your marriage than this money issue. I'd highly, highly recommend John Gottmann's The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. It's an excellent read, all advice based in empirical research, and it could really help you bring her back on your side, if right now she's really just looking out for herself.
Good luck! I hope you're able to make it work.
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I am not in your position, but this is what I see by your expenses:
1K for food? What are you eating, extinct species?
2k for 'maintenance'? Do you hire professional gold scrubbers to come hand wash your gold everything under the light of a full moon with unicorn tears? Did you marry the Queen of England?
OK, I'm being a jerk. But let's take a step back. I feel like I waste a ton. We go on at least 1 big vacation every other year, own 4 vehicles (all 2 wheeled), and go out far too often.
Even given this, and paying off a commuter motorcycle, we can still live this ridiculously lavish life on <50k a year. Sure, we don't live in a fancy place, but it's nice. We don't have a mercedes, but I like our vehicles. If we needed a car I would easily go out and get a used one, or ::gasp: even finance one. $1k a month is going into investments before I even see it.
Here's how I approached it:
My wife moved from her parent's house to mine. Her parents took her out a couple times a week, bought her whatever was needed, etc. But she did have to work.
So, instead of saying "honey, I want to stop spending so much out, and we can't keep this lifestyle up..." I came in from the angle of "look how much less people live on."
If the nanny and the maintenance are totaling 4k, you could tell her "that's my pay".
Since you're currently on FMLA, what is the nanny for, exactly? I would love it if someone paid my wife 2k/mo to just clean up a bit and help with the kiddo.
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These nickling and diming suggestions are pointless. OP HAS $2.3 MILLION!!! He does not need to pack lunches or cut their heating bill by $10/month to make ER work. For crying out loud, he's already there! He can make it happen by extricating them from their high-priced lifestyle, and he recognizes it. As he said, just by selling their expensive place and going somewhere else, they could have a paid-off house and pretty damn luxurious monthly budget without even trying.
I disagree. Nickles and dimes quickly turn into $1,000 per month when you're living in that budget range. Packing lunches is probably $200 in savings each month (each). Unless you're willing to admit that it all makes a difference, then you're not really extricating yourself from anything.
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RJG, I think you have more power than you realize. Somehow, your wife controls your careers, the child-rearing, the free time, the life philosophy, and the spending though she's making less money than you, while you control... uh... packing your lunch. Why does she need to be responsible for everything when she has a perfectly good partner to help? Why is she reluctant to embrace even the little changes which really amount to "more efficiency / less waste"? Doesn't she want to trust you with some of the burden of your lives? She's squeezing you out of your marriage, what gives?
I don't think she's truly thought about what her life would look like as a divorced, 39-year-old woman with an infant in NYC. Even with a good chunk of your money every month, it wouldn't be great. Nor has she thought about what your life would be like as a bachelor in NYC with a good job. She wouldn't be doing herself any favors divorcing you, though it's impossible for you to bring these realities up without sounding like a heartless bastard, though a counselor can and hopefully will.
So, once the dust settles, maybe you want to hit up a couples counselor for a post-baby "tune up", address the balance of power, and set some goals for your marriage. You can do this without turning into a tyrant, but you might need a third party to briefly help you.
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No I have never flipped out and said something I regret after someone made a suggestion. Sure I have gotten fired up and said stuff that I regret...
The point was to put oneself in another's (potentially emotionally fragile) shoes. It's about trying to see things from the other side of the fence. I quoted this specifically because the two statements seem to be contradictory, and have me confused. This happened in the heat of the moment, whatever regretful thing was said in your past? That seems to be the case for OP's wife as well. It happens, and hopefully she will apologize for it when calm. I have been through the process, with a child no less, and never care to even joke about repeating it again.
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No I have never flipped out and said something I regret after someone made a suggestion. Sure I have gotten fired up and said stuff that I regret...
The point was to put oneself in another's (potentially emotionally fragile) shoes. It's about trying to see things from the other side of the fence. I quoted this specifically because the two statements seem to be contradictory, and have me confused. This happened in the heat of the moment, whatever regretful thing was said in your past? That seems to be the case for OP's wife as well. It happens, and hopefully she will apologize for it when calm. I have been through the process, with a child no less, and never care to even joke about repeating it again.
It's not contradictory. Replace "said something I regret" with "punch someone in the face". Surely you can imagine a situation where I am pushed beyond my limit and end up punching someone in the face - that does not mean I will fly off the handle and punch someone in the face without being provoked though. I have never (nor will I ever) punch someone in the face for making a calm and rational suggestion to me.
The times I have said things I regret was when I was very emotional and was provoked. I was very emotional because I was being verbally abused and yelled at. Those situations are radically different from the OPs situation imo.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.
Guilty as charged. But while understandable it is still not excusable. Like I said in an earlier post, I've known married couples who found out about adulterous affairs who didn't say the D word until two or three conversations in. Is birthing and raising a newborn going to be the new Twinkie defense? Or do men go back to the chauvinist belief women are delicate and over emotional. And by implication make unilateral marriage decisions? Sounds like a slippery slope to me.
If the OP did indeed time this conversation poorly he owes his wife an apology and to suck up his miserable life just a little longer until the time is right to re engage. But if some apology for threatening divorce isn't forthcoming he should seek some counseling. In any case I hope things work out for the two of them.
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How about finding a job in Europe?
In 2003 I got fed up with my job and asked for a transfer to Brussels. I was asked to return to NYC in 2005 but 2 years later I resigned and got a job in Paris. It helped me a lot to keep work interesting and if work at time is boring, I can just take a short flight to Rome or Madrid for the weekend.
Yeah I've already been looking to see if I can transfer to a European office
This sounds like an interesting option. If you can't get a transfer you could also look for other jobs there even if they're not with American companies. If you get hired by a European company some will do the paperwork to get you the proper visa. Your wife may not be able to get a work visa right away though. Another option is freelancing from Europe with American clients. Since this is one of your wife's dreams, maybe she'd be more inclined to make some changes knowing this would be the payoff. Also, since she's into education she probably knows about the higher quality of schools in Europe and may be willing to forgo private schooling there. It sounds like you could afford a move like that right now and you are in a field with good job opportunities.
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I wouldn't drop it entirely, I would continue to discuss, just try to be as non-confrontational as possible. Yeah, she is tired and hormones are crazy, but there will never be an ideal time to discuss life changing ideas. Never. Dh and I separated when the kiddo was 2, mostly because we hadn't talked about where we wanted to go next. He had no idea I wanted to leave where we were living and what we were doing and couldn't comprehend doing anything else. Two years of counseling later, we sold the house in the pricey ski resort, sold the company and took off blindly across the country to a new house by a beach. Which by the way, was my plan, we just ended up at the Atlantic rather than Pacific. People we knew in the pricey ski resort told us we were nuts. Fast forward another 7 years and another move (that again I had to talk him into) and we've both realized that working full time sucks.
So, a year ago, I ran the numbers on how much we need to not have to work again, unless we want to. Dh kept saying he could work another 10+ years, it has taken me a year to explain to him that we can probably retire in 7 years, 6 if the kiddo gets a screaming college deal. Each time it takes me about a year or two to convince him. I don't bring it up every day or even every week, but at what I view as opportune times. Go slow and keep what you want in your mind. Also, counseling is awesome, if you think it would help, do it sooner rather than later. Totally money well spent. Good Luck!
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A lot of people have expressed opinions about the OP's marriage. I don't think there is any benefit to the OP (or anyone) from continuing to argue about whose analysis of their marriage is correct.
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Since your wife is into status, I forgot to add that in the pricey ski town I lived in CO (and many other areas in the west and northwest), a husband that doesn't work is a status symbol.
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Since your wife is into status, I forgot to add that in the pricey ski town I lived in CO (and many other areas in the west and northwest), a husband that doesn't work is a status symbol.
It's called the leisure class. Wife needs to stop thinking like such a pleb.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
I'm sorry, but your, or any person's ability to spout "complainypants" ends RIGHT HERE if you've never given birth, breastfed, worked, and pumped. And if by any luck you are a woman who has done all of that, if you DIDN'T suffer from PPD then you STILL have to shut up.
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Kind of feels manipulative but I guess I'm going to need to play the martyr a bit. Hey look- I'm packing peanut butter and jelly to pay for the nanny! Sure - lets go out to dinner. Ill eat beforehand and just come with you.
But I'm still not sure what the point is. Even if we cut back on back on food spending there's still an enormous leap from that to moving somewhere cheaper and me not working.
It would be one thing if we both trying to save up to retire early. But savings isn't really the issue here. We either have more than enough already or millions too little. I think the bigger issues for her are me not working and the idea of moving out of a big city.
I agree wjth the poster who asked what's in it for my wife. That's a good way to frame it. Right now, here's what I could say:
-happier husband
-no need to hire an outsude person to take care of kid
-flexibility to move around / travel since I woukdnt be tied down to a job (this one is a double edges sword).
But I think the "house husband" thing is the part that she's most resistant too. It seems very important to her that I work. She always talks about her "loser uncle" who doesn't have a steady job. On the flip side her grandfather on her moms side inherited money and never worked a day in his life. She speaks fondly of him.
I think my best shot is to find a job in a lower cost city that i could be passionate about that might pay less and see how that resonates. Of course, having a job necessitates child care spending. And I have no idea what this mythical unicorn job might be.
The point is - you don't want to make an enormous leap. Or, maybe, you do, but she doesn't.
I know that MMM is all about face-punches and fast, hair-on-fire emergency changes and all. And for some people, that works and it's needed (like weight loss).
But that is stressful. And the fact of the matter is, you don't *need* that financially. Maybe you want it, but you don't NEED it.
When it comes to a big change, you may just have to ease into it. Maybe you've been thinking about it for years but never broached the subject. So to you it's something you've wanted forever and she never knew that? So, plant the seed, water it.
She has in her head a certain lifestyle that she wants. You have to be working for her to get that.
You need to convince her that she doesn't want that lifestyle. How do you do that, little by little?
I realize that it seems silly to save $10 by packing a lunch or $100 by foregoing dinner out. But it really does add up.
So pack your lunch. Keep track of what it saves (when I started packing my lunch for my husband and myself, I calculated that it's a new car every 5 years. Sure, it's a Civic, not an Escalade. But still). Find other small ways to save money.
Start looking into going to Europe for a year, or whatever. What would you do, where would you go? What would it cost? Could you rent your space when you are gone? Research it, talk about it some night after a glass of wine.
It's not going to become real unless you plan for it. So that's what is in it for her. "Well, if we cut back on eating out, it saves "X", if we cut back on the car it saves "Y", if share a nanny it saves "Z"". Start talking about your overall life goals and figure out, together, how to plan for that.
As far as the mythical job you enjoy, well, you don't know that until to try some things and find it. But with a job and a newborn, I'd wait. EITHER look for new jobs/ extra income on the side that could lead to a new job OR work on cutting expenses, because you probably don't have the time or energy for both.
On the not working - did her "loser uncle" have money problems? The difference between "loser uncle" and "awesome grandfather" simply could be how much money they had.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
Sounds like people who have no idea about the physical and psychological ramifications of birthing and raising a newborn.
Guilty as charged. But while understandable it is still not excusable. Like I said in an earlier post, I've known married couples who found out about adulterous affairs who didn't say the D word until two or three conversations in. Is birthing and raising a newborn going to be the new Twinkie defense? Or do men go back to the chauvinist belief women are delicate and over emotional. And by implication make unilateral marriage decisions? Sounds like a slippery slope to me.
If the OP did indeed time this conversation poorly he owes his wife an apology and to suck up his miserable life just a little longer until the time is right to re engage. But if some apology for threatening divorce isn't forthcoming he should seek some counseling. In any case I hope things work out for the two of them.
My husband was no more competent to discuss major changes than I was at three month post-birth because of the sleep deprivation. Look it up, it can cause major physical and psychological problems. But even past that, hormones do affect some people badly after birth. I love public speaking, could get up in front of a crowd from a young age with no problem. Same with test taking, I was great at it. After birth I had PPD and did not recognize it because it was not depression (which I was screened for), it was anxiety which affect 10% of PPD patients. I had a panic attack so badly before my thesis defense I was shaking. And then I failed an exam. I was lucky, a professor recognized the test anxiety during the exam and called me into the office. Because of her, I am now in my PhD program and fine. The hormones that cause this are no less biological than the hormones that cause diabetes. That has nothing to do with being over emotional and has to do with biological realities.
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yeeeeah, bunch of fellas saying pure bullshit right now. As a father of a 7 month old, listen to the ladies in this thread. you guys mansplaining about what is or isn't due to pregnancy is getting a bit cringey.
As for the OP: Have you thought about changing the approach, from a "stay at home dad" and investment income, to something way more exciting-sounding and "acceptable? Suggest to her that you want to start your own company. This site is never about doing fuck-all all day anyway, it's to retire to INCREASE meaningful productivity. I've found that in discussing this with my wife and family, the second approach works much better. You're not retiring, you're starting a business from home. Of course, it'd REALLY help to move somewhere cheaper so you didn't have to be quite so profitable right off the bat, and maybe you could take a bit of money from savings and invest it into the company. And hey, maybe there's some nice tax opportunities there. etc etc etc. She might be WAY more into that idea, and maybe it'd let you find a meaningful path that uses the skills you already have.
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I'm not buying the sleep deprivation thing. They pay a nanny fraking 24,000 per year. What's the point of that then?
Still not ok to throw around the D word
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I'm not buying the sleep deprivation thing. They pay a nanny fraking 24,000 per year. What's the point of that then?
Still not ok to throw around the D word
I believe the nanny is for daycare once they are both back at work. Although sometimes nannies live in ala Mary Poppins, most times they come in for the day and parents are still responsible for nights and weekends. Think of a traveling day care center that comes to your house.
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I'm not buying the sleep deprivation thing. They pay a nanny fraking 24,000 per year. What's the point of that then?
Still not ok to throw around the D word
In almost everything else, I'm willing to bet you'd be willing to listen to the experts. Not only the women in this thread, but also all the psychologists they talked to, and all the psychologists YOU could talk to if you were willing to research this topic the same way you do investments or FIRE, would agree that it is a real thing, that people kinda go crazy in new and fun and interesting ways when they give birth, and that while this happens to both parents, the mothers get the REAL sharp end of the stick. Is the idea of being wrong about something really that uncomfortable?
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She might be back at work thinking "Oh my God, I can't keep doing this" and he's at home talking about quitting his job. I knew I was going back to work, we hired the mom as our nanny, and I still totally freaked out once I went back to work. My favorite was trying to pump between sales calls, having a meeting with my boss who suggested that I needed to get my numbers up, then having my husband call at 6pm on the dot with my daughter screaming into the phone asking me why I hadn't left yet. I was never in the right place at the right time and I was rarely sane or calm.
The baby is 3 freaking months old. My first had colic and didn't start sleeping for longer than 3 hours at a time until she was over 4 months old. If my husband would have suggested something that I perceived as insane at the time, I probably would have suggested divorce too. Suggesting it and meaning it are two different things. From my experience, people tend to use that word when they feel cornered and panicked and don't know what else to do. If you've never done that, I commend you, but I never heard my stonewalling parents fight or discuss divorce until they actually did after 20 years of marriage.
Give the hormone argument a rest. It's real as real gets. If you haven't been there (as a woman), then your two cents on that topic aren't needed.
All that being said... New York City is a place where most people are Very into money and status. If that is the world that you find yourself in there, it is hard to not keep up with the Jones's and being in that environment can make people feel like there is only one right way to do things and that way costs a lot. I can imagine with her past and issues with money, that not keeping up can make her feel like a lesser person. That is a really good thing to explore in counselling. I also believe that getting out of that environment (someday) can help with seeing the light on FI.
Would she accept Chicago as a big city that she could live near? Chicago is Sooo much cheaper. Try finding a job you can't pass up there.
A relaxing and simple vacation (not a run around taking in all the sights one) can be a great time to discuss future dreams and propose ways to move towards that, once the baby is 1 year old, of course. Best of luck.
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I've had trouble keeping up with the extraordinary growth of this thread, so please correct me if the following summary is inaccurate.
You are a rich dude with huge assets and income and a job that makes you miserable, so you want to talk to your wife about the possibility of early retirement with a less extravagant lifestyle. Your wife has told you that she doesn't care if you are miserable and she wants a divorce if you do not continue to work in your miserable job to support her crazy level of spending.
How did this thread get to four pages long without someone using the word "golddigger"? Because this looks like a textbook case, to me.
edit, for effect:
If you ain't no punk, holla "we want prenup". (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwNcNOTVzY)
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Since your wife is into status, I forgot to add that in the pricey ski town I lived in CO (and many other areas in the west and northwest), a husband that doesn't work is a status symbol.
It's called the leisure class. Wife needs to stop thinking like such a pleb.
It's not cool to judge and condemn OP's wife without having met her and knowing all of the circumstances. You (and others) are making assumptions, and it's not productive to the conversation. "Since your wife is into status...." How do you figure that? Her reason for wanting OP to continue working is because it sets a good example for the kid. How is that status? She wants private school for a long list of very understandable reasons having everything to do with education, not status. I'm willing to bet that at least part of her desire to travel through Europe also has to do with enrichment for the kid, giving him (or her?) opportunities she never got as a child and making him/her a better and more well-rounded person. How is any of that status-related? It's not. It's trying to make sure her child has a better life than she does, no matter how great she thinks life already is, and every parent on the planet can understand that. Just because she's thinking about this from a perspective you've all deemed wrong doesn't mean that her motives are wrong.
I'm not buying the sleep deprivation thing. They pay a nanny fraking 24,000 per year. What's the point of that then?
Still not ok to throw around the D word
Finally: get past the freaking divorce comment already. She said it, but she hasn't done anything about it and OP doesn't seem super worried about the prospect of actually getting divorced. So give it a rest. I'm sure it's super helpful to have you harping on that one comment and how wrong she was to have said it. Yay! Congratulations, you know how to judge someone else! Now stop it. That's not what this forum is about.
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I've had trouble keeping up with the extraordinary growth of this thread, so please correct me if the following summary is inaccurate.
You are a rich dude with huge assets and income and a job that makes you miserable, so you want to talk to your wife about the possibility of early retirement with a less extravagant lifestyle. Your wife has told you that she doesn't care if you are miserable and she wants a divorce if you do not continue to work in your miserable job to support her crazy level of spending.
How did this thread get to four pages long without someone using the word "golddigger"? Because this looks like a textbook case, to me.
edit, for effect:
If you ain't no punk, holla "we want prenup". (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vwNcNOTVzY)
Because she is the one working right now? Because her wanting BOTH of them to continue working does not mean she is after HIS money, after all it is both of THEIR money.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
I'm sorry, but your, or any person's ability to spout "complainypants" ends RIGHT HERE if you've never given birth, breastfed, worked, and pumped. And if by any luck you are a woman who has done all of that, if you DIDN'T suffer from PPD then you STILL have to shut up.
And moreover, anyone who ISNT EXACTLY ME can shut up. You don't know me! I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake!!!!
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What I have mentioned that seemed effective was talking about things I was going to do to "help pay for the nanny". I guess saving in one area so that we can pay for something else resonates. Kinda zero sum but you gotta start somewhere.
I think you will have more success if you can frame things in a way that resonates with her strong values. She doesn't need to know what your end goal is yet, just start working on it in a way that doesn't make her feel like her values are being challenged.
As other posters have mentioned, at 3 months post partum, you wife is likely to be very much 'mama bear'. That baby is probably on her mind 24/7....seriously. Coupled with her high need for 'security', I think you need to play to those strong values of hers. If you are doing something for junior's sake or to increase the family's financial security, I think you will have a lot more success.
For example, 'let's cut down on expensive holidays to make contributions to junior's education fund'. It doesn't feel like such a loss if she has a vision of the 'good' that is being done.
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I don't buy the undiagnosed PPD/hormone excuse. Plenty of husbands and wives of folks on this board have responded too irrationally to the "frugal lifestyle" discussion without the need for an excuse.
Both of our children spent almost two months in intensive neonatal care after birth. I was there when the doctor handed my older son to my wife after delivery for 30 seconds and then whisked him away to ICU before he was transported to another hospital over an hour away. Afterwards, I worked all day and then made the drive with my wife to spend all our evenings/nights in an unfamiliar place eating junk food and getting little sleep before driving over an hour home to repeat the cycle the next day. With the second son, initially we were put on 48-hour notice that he might not make it.
Just before our first son's birth, our family income dropped 60% due to a decision that I made. My wife never balked at my decision. She was supportive of my decision just as I was of hers when she wanted to stay at home while our children were preschool age. Difficult births and possible infant mortality are not at the top of the typical pre-marriage discussion lists although a minority of couples encounter this reality. The notion that two people will have exactly the same life goals over twenty plus years of marriage is also unlikely, hence one of the reasons society warns against teens marrying. However, this example proves that the marrying age is not the only good predictor for married bliss.
No marriage partner can honestly say that everything that can possibly happen after marriage was anticipated, much less discussed before the nuptials. I went to grad school after marriage--hello, cheap living. We moved to a new city after marriage--hello, new place. I changed careers after marriage--hello, new boss. We changed churches after marriage--hello, new friends. We developed new hobbies/interests after marriage--hello, new lifestyle.
Spouses who balk at the hint of change might have underlying reasons. Those reasons might have enough history to stiff-arm any attempts at discussion without a neutral third party. Work on the relationship. Work on being a husband a wife can love as a person, not as a cash cow. My wife might think I was getting lazy if I wanted to discuss quitting work just before going back to the office after a multi-week FMLA. That kind of husband would be hard to love in the best of times.
If you're a husband who would defend his wife and child to the death against an intruder, what's one or two years to keep piling up your income/savings at a job you hate to wait for your personal life to settle down? Time is on your side. If you misstep here, you could end up with a couple decades to wonder whether an extra year would have been worth the wait.
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Mr. OP sir,
I'm another guy in a less extreme case of the same thing. My wife wants certain things out of life that I could take or leave. We reached some compromises, which were mostly just me giving in to what she wants. It wasn't as bad as it sounds. Private school is expensive, but with one kid it might be cheaper to stay put and pay for private school than moving to an extremely good school district if it comes with a hefty price increase. For example.
I've arrived at a two-phase approach to financial planning. There's the "pre-college" phase and the "post-college" phase. From now until our kids are in college, we're living pretty expensive, because we're in a grand school district, and both of us working creates more expenses (ie: childcare). I have our future premium housing obligations modeled as debt with an interest rate equal to inflation that we can't pay off early. From there, my FI number becomes about meeting my post-college cash-flow needs, plus whatever is left of that "debt-to-self" at any given moment. If you run the numbers in that way, I bet you'll find that your "debt" to meet the education side of what your wife wants is something like 1/4 of your current net worth. Ie: it's not going to be catastrophic to just give in on the private school. (Note that when you run the numbers that way, your "savings rate" goes through the roof, because you wind up fudging some of your spending over to the savings column. (Cost of that being a much higher FI number.) So don't get too much sticker shock at whatever FI number pops out.)
Travel and Europe: how meetable her expectations are boils down to how she thinks you need to travel and live while travelling. She doesn't sound like a huge prima donna, so I suspect you're okay there. (Hope that's right.) Travel can be reasonably inexpensive, if structured right. Kids limit when and how much you can travel.
Perhaps your hardest challenge is going to be around convincing her that your assets can produce meaningful income security. Maybe learning how to manage Real Estate investing is the way to go. I certainly don't think I could sell a skeptical new Mom on SWR math. Much easier to convince her later that your stable of properties is throwing off predictable income. I'm pretty sure the Tahoe Second Home idea is a bad way to do that, though.
Once the income-stability domino falls, and once you have enough in place to guarantee whatever you're signing up for, I think it should be easy to convince her that you can quit and become a contractor/consultant/capital manager/property manager/whatever. Just so long as Junior sees you doing some work every day, of course.
If you think she's serious about the divorce threat... well, I suspect that just giving in on a lot of this would be a heck of a lot cheaper. :)
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
I'm sorry, but your, or any person's ability to spout "complainypants" ends RIGHT HERE if you've never given birth, breastfed, worked, and pumped. And if by any luck you are a woman who has done all of that, if you DIDN'T suffer from PPD then you STILL have to shut up.
And moreover, anyone who ISNT EXACTLY ME can shut up. You don't know me! I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake!!!!
I agree. In fact I might even be more unique than you. And that should exempt me from all criticism.
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I do think her primary motives are security/stability, raising her child in the best possible way and having a husband she can be proud of. I don't really see status as a big motivator honestky. Spending 600 on groceries doesn't earn you baller status. The way in which she wants to achieve those things seems wrongheaded to me and most of you guys but that's another matter.
Regarding gold digging, that doesn't ring true either. Not only will she inherit a ton of money (her mother remarried a wealthy guy) but she brought about 600k if her own when we got married. In addition, she wants to continue working rather than become a stay at home mom. Of course, this makes her money insecurity even harder to understand but I guess early child hood issues are hard to overcome.
Now it's pretty obvious to me that making changes in our cost of living would actually increase stability/security and enrich our child's life by allowing us to spend more time with him. But that's going to be a tough sell for her.
Starting my own business is an intersting idea though I have little interest in doing that or ideas for what it would be. It'd have to be a real money maker for her to accept it.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
I'm sorry, but your, or any person's ability to spout "complainypants" ends RIGHT HERE if you've never given birth, breastfed, worked, and pumped. And if by any luck you are a woman who has done all of that, if you DIDN'T suffer from PPD then you STILL have to shut up.
And moreover, anyone who ISNT EXACTLY ME can shut up. You don't know me! I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake!!!!
I agree. In fact I might even be more unique than you. And that should exempt me from all criticism.
I find these two comments quite amusing given that the point is, this is not unique but if you don't have experience in the matter, your opinion really does not matter/hold water. It is like someone who did not pass high school biology holding an opinion on evolution, that is nice but without any knowledge who would listen. Perhaps boys, you may want to listen to the man who posted earlier "In almost everything else, I'm willing to bet you'd be willing to listen to the experts. Not only the women in this thread, but also all the psychologists they talked to, and all the psychologists YOU could talk to if you were willing to research this topic the same way you do investments or FIRE, would agree that it is a real thing, that people kinda go crazy in new and fun and interesting ways when they give birth, and that while this happens to both parents, the mothers get the REAL sharp end of the stick. Is the idea of being wrong about something really that uncomfortable?"
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I find these two comments quite amusing given that the point is, this is not unique but if you don't have experience in the matter, your opinion really does not matter/hold water. It is like someone who did not pass high school biology holding an opinion on evolution, that is nice but without any knowledge who would listen. Perhaps boys, you may want to listen to the man who posted earlier "In almost everything else, I'm willing to bet you'd be willing to listen to the experts. Not only the women in this thread, but also all the psychologists they talked to, and all the psychologists YOU could talk to if you were willing to research this topic the same way you do investments or FIRE, would agree that it is a real thing, that people kinda go crazy in new and fun and interesting ways when they give birth, and that while this happens to both parents, the mothers get the REAL sharp end of the stick. Is the idea of being wrong about something really that uncomfortable?"
I don't think anyone claimed it wasn't real, just that it shouldn't be used an excuse for her behavior. Where exactly do you draw the line on how much crazy you can excuse?
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Ok, so I didn't read every single post, but I got about half-way in. My apologies if this is repetitive.
Judging by your budget, this is a new way of thinking for you and your family. You've probably been perusing the internet, reading articles, maybe even books about FI and frugality. Meanwhile, your wife has probably been reading about how every baby needs x, y and z in order to be safe, healthy and happy. I'm just guessing here.... not from experience I assure you. ;) I won't go into details, but I would have gone ape sh!t if my husband had told me he wanted to quit his job when I was 3 mos ppd. And, I was in such a dark place, I just might have mentioned divorce. As much as you love the baby, this is a HUGE time time of transition already. There is a lot of pressure out there about what it means to be a "good mom" and what exactly that entails. And it's overwhelming! Since you said you make the lion's share of the income, the idea of you quitting probably makes her feel so insecure and quite frankly, scared. So, I'm guessing she brought up the D word out of fear. (Just a note- my husband and I are in a great place now despite that rough period)
Have you read, "Your money or your life?" The book brings in great perspective about the true cost of working. Maybe you could ask her to read it once she is a little more rested. Then maybe show her some easy ways you can trim the budget that don't feel like suffering just to show you can. I truly believe it's a process and a total change in mindset. I don't think it's fair for you to expect her to jump onboard right away.
There are points in your life where you just have blinders on and it's hard to see anything else but straight ahead. Hopefully, she will eventually see that there isn't just this one, only way- likely the way most of the people she knows are doing things. I think it's a whole paradigm shift. My husband and I are just starting to make some changes. It all started w/me emailing him links to articles about families that are seeking or have achieved FI w/the subject line, "Doesn't this sound awesome?" or "These people are so badass."
So, good luck to you!
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I don't think anyone claimed it wasn't real, just that it shouldn't be used an excuse for her behavior.
"I'm sorry officer, I was speeding because I'm drunk."
or how about
"I molested that child because I was abused when I was little."
Since when is bad behavior excused by anything at all? Personal responsibility is tough, I know, but I think we're all adult enough to realize we should embrace it even when we don't want to.
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First of all, I'd like to thank the OP for sticking around and keeping up with the thread.
2nd, this thread has quickly turned quite epic and one of my favorites.
I re-read the OP to savor the moment. Looking at rjg's bullet list, I envisioned a beaten-down man, loosened tie handing from his neck, with messed up hair, sitting at the dinner table TAKING NOTES while his wife paraded around the kitchen ranting, somewhat incoherently, throwing up hear arms at times.
I am just poking fun, and I hope you will be able to, OP, in the sense that you will be able to have a more productive chat with your wife in a few months.
Keep us updated.
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Under no circumstance is it ok for a man's wife to threaten divorce after 30 min rant after man simply brings up a topic/idea. I don't care how fucking emotional you are, how stressed your are
SHE IS THE ONE WHO THREATENED THE DIVORCE. That is simply not acceptable. He NEVER threatened it. He just brought up a talking point with her.
I am sure (I hope) there is more to the story, but that is how I see it so far. This is all IMHO.
+1
Sounds like a lot of complainypants going on in here. Wah wah I have hormones so I can't be expected to be a rational human for 6 months. Wah wah I am stressed so a temper tantrum is justified. The man merely brought up a suggestion.
I'm sorry, but your, or any person's ability to spout "complainypants" ends RIGHT HERE if you've never given birth, breastfed, worked, and pumped. And if by any luck you are a woman who has done all of that, if you DIDN'T suffer from PPD then you STILL have to shut up.
And moreover, anyone who ISNT EXACTLY ME can shut up. You don't know me! I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake!!!!
I agree. In fact I might even be more unique than you. And that should exempt me from all criticism.
I find these two comments quite amusing given that the point is, this is not unique but if you don't have experience in the matter, your opinion really does not matter/hold water. It is like someone who did not pass high school biology holding an opinion on evolution, that is nice but without any knowledge who would listen. Perhaps boys, you may want to listen to the man who posted earlier "In almost everything else, I'm willing to bet you'd be willing to listen to the experts. Not only the women in this thread, but also all the psychologists they talked to, and all the psychologists YOU could talk to if you were willing to research this topic the same way you do investments or FIRE, would agree that it is a real thing, that people kinda go crazy in new and fun and interesting ways when they give birth, and that while this happens to both parents, the mothers get the REAL sharp end of the stick. Is the idea of being wrong about something really that uncomfortable?"
I'll have you know that I was breast fed extensively as a child, and I am therefore well qualified to hold an opinion on all such matters.
(http://x2.fjcdn.com/thumbnails/comments/I+ll+have+you+know+that+it+only+took+me+20+_2bcf645a4200217325df85739b936dd6.jpg)
Seriously, though I have no idea what you are even talking about. I do know that I am allowed to hold an opinion on anything I choose -- that's what makes it opinion, ya know? There is no appeal to authority here, don't even try it.
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I feel for you OP. You seem like a man whose child showed you the light. Once you have a child and are secure, what else do you really need?
I saw a similar thing occur with my BIL. I graduated with the same degree as he did. I don't have a lot in common with him, so conversation is usually difficult. The only softball I could toss his way was his job. Since his first child, I can see the massive change in him. When I ask about his job or what he is working on, most of it seems to have shades of grey and nothing seems heartfelt anymore. My nephew has showed him what is most important, but he still has to provide. I can tell he would love to be at home all day with his son.
Good luck with your situation!
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Blargh. Yeah she was wrong to go straight to "divorce" ya da, yada. But I didn't intend help demonize her or heap thermite on the bonfire around her stake. Unless marital counseling counts as such. Right or wrong, justified or not what was said was said. But I'll expand my previous actual advice. Withdraw, regroup, reset and wait for an opportune time to initiate the discussion again. Do the stupid job and embrace the suck. In the meantime prep the battlefield with a series of comments and actions to smooth the way with logic and pay offs. Strategize how to discuss how such changes benefits what she wants. Anticipate that what she wants may not necessarily be what she says she wants. Sometimes wants are mere masquerades for what people really want. Script pleasing rebuttals to her objections (already so thoughtfully given). And of course don't hit her up with this when she may already feel backed into a corner. If you succeed she'll want to become frugal. If you really succeed she might start to think it was her idea. If you reach this point silence is a good option.
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This is an unusual topic and basing this on my own experiences it touches on a area I have been trying to work out.
Some people argue their point with emotion. Others argue with logic. The problem with emotions is that they are irrational. You can't develop a good basis for arguments if you take the emotion route. Personal insults and threats are often a sign of this. They also never back down or admit defeat despite logic provided resulting in a kind of stalemate (I feel like they would consider conceding a weakness, however, I am always happy to be proven wrong and conceded the moment I see the flaw in the logic).
In this thread the people who fight with emotion seem to back up everyone else who fights with emotion.
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Good luck on the European job search, it really changes the pace compared to NYC (although I suspect that London is the exception, almost worked there but chose Paris instead).
My wife will start looking for another job after our baby is born and we are thinking that Zurich would be nice. She is also worried about me retiring in about 3-4 years (I am 42) but I told her that as long as I could cover half of the family expenses from my personaly investment earnings I would do as I please. We'll see how it goes when I get close to FIRE day.
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Didn't read through the responses, but here's a brief take:
1) She really does want to spend lots of money on whatever, and your conflicting goals may cause a rift in your marriage (blunt, I'm sorry)
2) There are some underlying insecurities/worries that make it terrifying for her. Admittedly, early retirement is scary. There are so many "What if's" in life, that it's hard for some people to imagine being retired before 60.
I think the way to approach this a little better is to talk more about Financial Independence and less about Early Retirement, specifically. After all, isn't FI what everyone is really after (even if you plan to continue working)?
Maybe try and take the approach to have a budget (doesn't need to be crazy mustachian), save and invest a lot to plan for life's crazy surprises, and go from there.
Also, over time, see if you can broach the topic in different ways to get her more comfortable with what you're really talking about and see if you can address her concerns one by one. Fear makes people react emotionally, not rationally. Remember that.
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A while back, a poster kindly attached a spreadsheet on Madrid's COL. Now, if you were to move to a more 'relaxed' area than Madrid, your costs could drop (while still retaining that cachet which is Europe to many North Americans). Why not consider trying it out for 3 months sometime during off-peak season (sept/oct-april/may) in southern Spain? There are houses/flats for rent which can keep your COL very low.
NB: If you're both US citizens on tourist visas, the max you can stay is 3 months. But if you'd like to get residency and, eventually, passports, that may be possible, once you have a regular income from investments. Here's how one US family is doing it: http://life.almostfearless.com/want-to-move-to-europe-whats-an-american-to-do/
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I've been reading this thread and all the replies. Demonizing OP's wife for a statement made while emotionally upset is not helpful. Neither is demonizing OP for terrible timing. So let's get past the name-calling and stuff and look at the situation a little more reasonably.
OP: don't figure on making any changes right now. Having poked the bear, you've got to back off and reassure her for a while. She's insecure and I would guess also high-strung to begin with (correct me if I'm wrong). Don't try to play the martyr with her, especially not right now; guilting your partner into doing something can sound the death-knell for a relationship.
When the little one has been sleeping through the night for a while, and both of you have recovered from sleep deprivation, then start again. Ask her what she wants - short term, mid term, and long term and how she sees your future playing out. Get her to explain why she wants the things she wants. This first conversation is all about what SHE is thinking and feeling. Draw her out; let her do most of the talking. And try to get an idea about what things are most important to her. For the love of God, if she starts getting upset, change the subject immediately.
You need to know where she stands before you can plan how to best work things out.
Then take the information she's given you, and think about it. You'll have to decide if her goals and yours are mutually exclusive and what you want to do about it if they are. Be willing to compromise - but be honest about it. If the compromise includes you keeping the job you hate, that's not likely to work out well. When you resume the conversation - and keep it LIGHT - give her reasonable alternatives to what she wants that allow you a bit more of what you want.
If the word "compromise" is not in her vocabulary (it wasn't in my ex's), then you're going to have to decide what you want to do.
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I do think her primary motives are security/stability, raising her child in the best possible way and having a husband she can be proud of. I don't really see status as a big motivator honestky.
She wants you to be miserable so that she can be "proud" of you? I dunno, that sounds like a status thing to me.
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She wants you to be miserable so that she can be "proud" of you? I dunno, that sounds like a status thing to me.
I'm pretty sure the wife isn't thinking "I want a miserable husband". I'd venture a guess to say that wife isn't even aware how miserable husband feels right now. I'd even bet that the OP may not have felt so miserable until he was faced with returning to work after FMLA. That's just an extreme case of Monday morning syndrome.
I find it curious how many people are willing to demonize the Wife without ever having heard her side of the story. Back off people!
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Now it's pretty obvious to me that making changes in our cost of living would actually increase stability/security and enrich our child's life by allowing us to spend more time with him. But that's going to be a tough sell for her.
Starting my own business is an intersting idea though I have little interest in doing that or ideas for what it would be. It'd have to be a real money maker for her to accept it.
Rjg, first - you are in an enviable position to be able to consider RE, so congratulations.
Next, you have gotten some good advice already in this post (and some...less helpful comments). I have two other ideas for you.
Read "Smart Couples Finish Rich," and do the value-based exercise that the author describes in the first few chapters. This book is a little out of date in terms of investing specifics, but the value-based exercise is INVALUABLE. In essence, it outlines a way for you and your spouse to have a PRODUCTIVE conversation that focused on your individual and joint values. From what you have described, you and your wife share some values....but have differences too. Starting with the VALUES allows you to begin the conversation in a neutral place, rather than running to action steps. We do the values exercise roughly annually, and while the outcomes rarely change, it allows us to ensure we are placing our money where our values are.
Second, I would suggest you re-evaluate how you think about your partnership. I quoted you above and bolded some of the language that you have been using that seems a little off to me. Your language suggests that you need to get permission, approval from your wife to do anything.
This raises a flag to me, as a true partnership isn't about getting permission from one another. I point this out only because you have used language like thispretty consistently in this post, and that might mean that you have (perhaps unintentionally) set up a very submissive / permissive relationship with your wife, which you may have to put some effort against "resetting.". One spouse being in charge of the other leads to frustration!
I hope you do keep us updated....while NYC is an amazing place to live, I hope you find a path to RE to get out of a job you do not enjoy. You only have one trip around the merry go round, my friend.
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I've been reading this thread and all the replies. Demonizing OP's wife for a statement made while emotionally upset is not helpful. Neither is demonizing OP for terrible timing. So let's get past the name-calling and stuff and look at the situation a little more reasonably.
OP: don't figure on making any changes right now. Having poked the bear, you've got to back off and reassure her for a while. She's insecure and I would guess also high-strung to begin with (correct me if I'm wrong). Don't try to play the martyr with her, especially not right now; guilting your partner into doing something can sound the death-knell for a relationship.
When the little one has been sleeping through the night for a while, and both of you have recovered from sleep deprivation, then start again. Ask her what she wants - short term, mid term, and long term and how she sees your future playing out. Get her to explain why she wants the things she wants. This first conversation is all about what SHE is thinking and feeling. Draw her out; let her do most of the talking. And try to get an idea about what things are most important to her. For the love of God, if she starts getting upset, change the subject immediately.
You need to know where she stands before you can plan how to best work things out.
Then take the information she's given you, and think about it. You'll have to decide if her goals and yours are mutually exclusive and what you want to do about it if they are. Be willing to compromise - but be honest about it. If the compromise includes you keeping the job you hate, that's not likely to work out well. When you resume the conversation - and keep it LIGHT - give her reasonable alternatives to what she wants that allow you a bit more of what you want.
If the word "compromise" is not in her vocabulary (it wasn't in my ex's), then you're going to have to decide what you want to do.
Makes a lot of sense. You are very right about her being high strung. It is very easy to rile her up - sometimes it happens when I think I'm saying something positive (for example FI). But this time I really seemed to have "poked the bear".
As for what's important to her, I already have a pretty good sense of that:
Education, travel, good food, safety/security, maintaining herself, maintaining me (she's very particular about wanting me to look good), being social
Money is a real land mine of an issue with her. I've only gotten her to work on a budget once (in preparation for our fmla) and it ended with her basically doubling all my estimates "to be safe". If you met her parents it's not hard to understand. Her dad was a blue collar guy who struggled as a carpenter, furniture maker and contractor. Her mom came from an independently wealthy family and was very "flighty". Never worked for money. Her mom and moms family used money as a means of control. She later remarried to a wealthy guy when my wife was 13 and was sent to boarding school (which she hated). So she bounced between 2 extremes.
My wife's financial philosophy is basically: never have debt, always work, don't trust the financial service industry (including the stock market). So pretty far from MMM's boundless optimism in that area.
She is supportive of me taking a year off to go back to a (top) school and get an MBA. She thinks that would boost my confidence and open up new opportunities while "clearing my head". I'm not enamored with that idea because it would cost a lot of money and I'm skeptical that it would open up jobs that I'd actually want. But it may be a something to work wjth.
The idea of finding a job in Europe is interesting. That would make her very happy. I'd enjoy it too if the job wasn't too stressful. Neither of us speak a foreign language however.
I'm also looking at trying to find a lower stress/lower pay job here in NYC. The crazy part is that if I add up the nanny cost, the extra monthly carrying cost of our apt and the opportunity cost of the home equity that's locked up in our place it comes to atkeast 70k/year! So that's how much I need to make just to tread water in NYC.
70k is an odd number because it's not entry level but it's also far below what I make now. I'd likely be over or under qualified for jobs in that range. I'm not convinced that doing what I do now but working for a non profit or university is going to be much better. And getting my wife to agree to me making less than half my current salary will provoke a similar response to the FI discussion.
But I think I need to start making some changes, however small, to get "un stuck".
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I have kept thinking about your dilemma and hoping you and your wife will come to a resolution. I had another thought...
Is there any possibility that, even if she never said it out loud, your WIFE wished on some level that she were able to stay home with the baby? And denied herself that because she felt that giving baby the best life meant two working parents? In that case, I could imagine an internal dialogue that went something along the lines of "I wish I could stay home, but I toughed it out and went back to work so that we can give our baby the very best. And now Mr. R thinks HE gets to stay home, AND downgrade our whole lifestyle, just because HE doesn't feel happy about going to work... How does he think I feel? Well, buster..." Meltdown ensues. If she feels like you are asking for something that she has already denied herself (even if she hasn't totally admitted it consciously) I could see that bypassing the logic circuits and going straight to the red anger button, esp complicated by all the stress/hormones/sleep deprivation mentioned already.
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Now it's pretty obvious to me that making changes in our cost of living would actually increase stability/security and enrich our child's life by allowing us to spend more time with him. But that's going to be a tough sell for her.
Starting my own business is an intersting idea though I have little interest in doing that or ideas for what it would be. It'd have to be a real money maker for her to accept it.
Rjg, first - you are in an enviable position to be able to consider RE, so congratulations.
Next, you have gotten some good advice already in this post (and some...less helpful comments). I have two other ideas for you.
Read "Smart Couples Finish Rich," and do the value-based exercise that the author describes in the first few chapters. This book is a little out of date in terms of investing specifics, but the value-based exercise is INVALUABLE. In essence, it outlines a way for you and your spouse to have a PRODUCTIVE conversation that focused on your individual and joint values. From what you have described, you and your wife share some values....but have differences too. Starting with the VALUES allows you to begin the conversation in a neutral place, rather than running to action steps. We do the values exercise roughly annually, and while the outcomes rarely change, it allows us to ensure we are placing our money where our values are.
Second, I would suggest you re-evaluate how you think about your partnership. I quoted you above and bolded some of the language that you have been using that seems a little off to me. Your language suggests that you need to get permission, approval from your wife to do anything.
This raises a flag to me, as a true partnership isn't about getting permission from one another. I point this out only because you have used language like thispretty consistently in this post, and that might mean that you have (perhaps unintentionally) set up a very submissive / permissive relationship with your wife, which you may have to put some effort against "resetting.". One spouse being in charge of the other leads to frustration!
I hope you do keep us updated....while NYC is an amazing place to live, I hope you find a path to RE to get out of a job you do not enjoy. You only have one trip around the merry go round, my friend.
I agree. I tend to be a pretty laid back "go along to get along" kind of person. When confronted wjth strong confrontational personalities I tend to back down. Combined wjth the fact that I've just been feeling depressed about my job, I haven't been a decisive leader at home or at work. This is something I need to work on as it leads to frustration. My guiding principle is "work less" which is anathema to many people at work and NYC in general.
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I have kept thinking about your dilemma and hoping you and your wife will come to a resolution. I had another thought...
Is there any possibility that, even if she never said it out loud, your WIFE wished on some level that she were able to stay home with the baby? And denied herself that because she felt that giving baby the best life meant two working parents? In that case, I could imagine an internal dialogue that went something along the lines of "I wish I could stay home, but I toughed it out and went back to work so that we can give our baby the very best. And now Mr. R thinks HE gets to stay home, AND downgrade our whole lifestyle, just because HE doesn't feel happy about going to work... How does he think I feel? Well, buster..." Meltdown ensues. If she feels like you are asking for something that she has already denied herself (even if she hasn't totally admitted it consciously) I could see that bypassing the logic circuits and going straight to the red anger button, esp complicated by all the stress/hormones/sleep deprivation mentioned already.
Definitely. I think there is some conflicted emotion there. She wants to go back to work and doesn't want to go back. Whereas I just don't want to go back.
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As far as private education goes, my wife works in the education field (and is very opposed to things like the common core and the "testing" mandated by no child left behind. She thinks that the best private schools foster creativity and give more individual attention. I disagree but she's "the expert". I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition. She seemed to like that idea. Of course, the schools she likes are either in NYC or Boston so that doesn't help wjth cost of living.
Dude, Boston and NYC are not in the same league. Take it from someone who made the move (8 years ago), and whose wife bore some of the same traits as yours and only made the move kicking and screaming. She pouted for almost a full year (always making off-hand comments about how Boston sucked and "it wasn't New York" blah, blah, blah). I took a pay cut to come to Boston, but ended up with the same take home pay (no city tax, lower state tax), and everything, from housing to gas to food, is cheaper in Boston. Now, if she wants to live in the Back Bay, or Newton, all bets are off, but otherwise, places like Cambridge, Somerville, East Boston, Jamaica Plain, etc, etc, are exceptional places to live only minutes from downtown. And Massachusetts schools are some of the best in the nation. Cambridge schools are world class. Don't rule out a move to Boston as a potential compromise. I can tell you that I've gotten FAR ahead since moving here. Best thing we could have done financially.
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As far as private education goes, my wife works in the education field (and is very opposed to things like the common core and the "testing" mandated by no child left behind. She thinks that the best private schools foster creativity and give more individual attention. I disagree but she's "the expert". I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition. She seemed to like that idea. Of course, the schools she likes are either in NYC or Boston so that doesn't help wjth cost of living.
Dude, Boston and NYC are not in the same league. Take it from someone who made the move (8 years ago), and whose wife bore some of the same traits as yours and only made the move kicking and screaming. She pouted for almost a full year (always making off-hand comments about how Boston sucked and "it wasn't New York" blah, blah, blah). I took a pay cut to come to Boston, but ended up with the same take home pay (no city tax, lower state tax), and everything, from housing to gas to food, is cheaper in Boston. Now, if she wants to live in the Back Bay, or Newton, all bets are off, but otherwise, places like Cambridge, Somerville, East Boston, Jamaica Plain, etc, etc, are exceptional places to live only minutes from downtown. And Massachusetts schools are some of the best in the nation. Cambridge schools are world class. Don't rule out a move to Boston as a potential compromise. I can tell you that I've gotten FAR ahead since moving here. Best thing we could have done financially.
She actually grew up in Cambridge. But is not excited by the prospect of moving back there. I'd love to live there. I agree that overall it makes a ton of sense
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As far as private education goes, my wife works in the education field (and is very opposed to things like the common core and the "testing" mandated by no child left behind. She thinks that the best private schools foster creativity and give more individual attention. I disagree but she's "the expert". I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition. She seemed to like that idea. Of course, the schools she likes are either in NYC or Boston so that doesn't help wjth cost of living.
Dude, Boston and NYC are not in the same league. Take it from someone who made the move (8 years ago), and whose wife bore some of the same traits as yours and only made the move kicking and screaming. She pouted for almost a full year (always making off-hand comments about how Boston sucked and "it wasn't New York" blah, blah, blah). I took a pay cut to come to Boston, but ended up with the same take home pay (no city tax, lower state tax), and everything, from housing to gas to food, is cheaper in Boston. Now, if she wants to live in the Back Bay, or Newton, all bets are off, but otherwise, places like Cambridge, Somerville, East Boston, Jamaica Plain, etc, etc, are exceptional places to live only minutes from downtown. And Massachusetts schools are some of the best in the nation. Cambridge schools are world class. Don't rule out a move to Boston as a potential compromise. I can tell you that I've gotten FAR ahead since moving here. Best thing we could have done financially.
She actually grew up in Cambridge. But is not excited by the prospect of moving back there. I'd love to live there. I agree that overall it makes a ton of sense
There is a renaissance going on in Boston. It's palpable. One of the lowest unemployment rates in the country, red hot real estate market, and an exploding tech and health care sector. Get here before it really is as expensive as NYC. Quality of life here is so much better.
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I don't think anyone claimed it wasn't real, just that it shouldn't be used an excuse for her behavior.
"I'm sorry officer, I was speeding because I'm drunk."
or how about
"I molested that child because I was abused when I was little."
Since when is bad behavior excused by anything at all? Personal responsibility is tough, I know, but I think we're all adult enough to realize we should embrace it even when we don't want to.
exactly
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The other thing you might consider, and I mean this very, very kindly, is looking for someone to talk things through with before you come back to the next conversation with your wife. First of all, it sounds like you are looking to change the communications dynamic of your marriage--that you have a hard time asserting yourself with strong personalities, which your wife is. You may find some coaching will help you know how to frame the conversation, when to stand up for yourself and when to let it go, etc. This is all tough to figure out on the fly! The other issue is that it sounds possible you might be suffering from some depression. We have heard a lot about what you don't want to do or can't do, but not a lot about what you do want to do. Even the conversation about staying home with the baby has been less about how excited you are to spend time with this little person, and more about how you are dreading going back to work. (Again, this could just be the post-baby issues, as well as something bigger.) If you really want to make these changes, it will be a marathon. Think of this as training for the marathon! You will handle your wife's issues better if you are handling your own issues as well as possible.
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These nickling and diming suggestions are pointless. OP HAS $2.3 MILLION!!! He does not need to pack lunches or cut their heating bill by $10/month to make ER work. For crying out loud, he's already there! He can make it happen by extricating them from their high-priced lifestyle, and he recognizes it. As he said, just by selling their expensive place and going somewhere else, they could have a paid-off house and pretty damn luxurious monthly budget without even trying.
I disagree. Nickles and dimes quickly turn into $1,000 per month when you're living in that budget range. Packing lunches is probably $200 in savings each month (each). Unless you're willing to admit that it all makes a difference, then you're not really extricating yourself from anything.
I agree that OP and his wife spend a LOT of money, but I don't think that's the issue here. Packing one's lunch pails in comparison to having a nanny and a maid. And they're beyond the accumulation phase. Clearly, saving money will help them extricate themselves from the must-work-to-afford-our-lifestyle treadmill. I think the OP gets that, he acknowledged that right away. At the same time, a 4% SWR from $2.3 million gives off about $92,000/year in income for life. He recognizes that simply by moving to a lower cost of living area and all the inherent savings that come from getting out of NYC with a nanny, maid, "maintenance", they could easily make it. $92,000/year. It would not require PB&J sandwiches if they don't want that, and no turning off the A/C.
I think we're all for cutting expenses and waste, not just for the monetary aspect but because of the other reasons MMM espouses. But like I said, I don't think that's the primary issue here. OP has much bigger issues to deal with his wife's stance.
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Just wanted to chime in on the NYC front. No, it's not the cheapest COL, yes, there are segments that are very status-focused, but there is nothing wrong with choosing to live here and it is totally compatible with also attempting to not spend so much. Valuing a place where one's career, friends etc. are, a place one feels at home and comfortable, is personal; and there's no need to insist that moving out of the city has to happen for the OP to downsize expenses. 6k a month is plenty to live on here, it's about changing the attitude and not the location IMO.
Note I have thought to myself before that I would never want to be with someone who didn't see himself staying here for the long term future. So while obviously having a family and spouse change things I get feeling wedded to the city. There may be room to shift that attitude, but it doesn't have to be on the table/required.
Good luck!
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OP, I thought of another small thing which might help. Yet another book recommendation. "Bringing Up Bebe". It's about a New York transplant to Paris and how she saw raising kids in both locations. Has nothing to do with money, but everything to do with how well-mannered the French kids were, how much more relaxed the parents were, blah blah blah Europeans do it all better and skinnier. Doesn't matter if the topic is totally mind-numbingly boring to you, the point is that it's about parenting in Europe. Maybe you could read that and get her to read it. If she claims not to have time, suggest reading it aloud to the kid during feeding times. That's what I did and it's good for both baby and mama because of the bonding. Babies love hearing their mother's voices, and reading aloud to them from the get-go is one of the best things you can do for your kid. If she doesn't want to do that, she'd probably find it adorable if she caught you reading aloud to Jr. and be intrigued by the book. Plus, brownie points for you for reading a parenting book, and on your own initiative no less.
The reason I suggest this is because it might light a fire under her for wanting that European travel/living and you could use that as a jumping off point for how to make it happen. It's sneaky and subtle and it totally would have worked on me. :) Even if she doesn't read it herself, having you bring it up in conversation and talk about wanting to travel with her and Jr., being gently enthusiastic about it, and trying to cut costs so that you can make that dream happen for all of you, as a family, will probably go a long way toward helping her change her attitude and thinking. At the moment she doesn't see any benefit to her and your family if you quit your job. All she sees is the monetary loss, which is scary at any time but particularly with a new baby. Others have said it but it bears lots of repeating: you need to make her see how all of this will benefit the family, and show her that you're working toward her dreams as well as your own. If one method for selling the dream doesn't work, try another. And another. And another. Plenty of people on the forums have noted that it took a while to sell their spouse on the idea of FI/ER, but once they did the spouse became even more motivated than they were. I'm confident that you'll be able to find the right way to frame this for your wife to love it, but it may take some time.
Good luck!
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Sorry if this is redundant, I admit I haven't read every post:
Are there any goals that you and your wife share? Even small ones? While allowing the dust to settle from this discussion, I suggest focusing on those goals. Let her see that you value your relationship more than money, and that you are willing to work hard to reach those common goals.
This is really the same thing we've seen a dozen times on these forums. . . how to get your spouse on-board. Take small steps, focus first on yourself, and plant the seeds of frugality. She may or may not come around, but your relationship will be stronger if you take a position of respect for her and her concerns.
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Your language suggests that you need to get permission, approval from your wife to do anything.
This raises a flag to me, as a true partnership isn't about getting permission from one another.
Because I am actively learning about such things (in order to shift my own patterns), I would love to hear more about this concept, please, little_owl. I get that we want partnerships, equality...but don't we have to have a partner's agreement before we implement a change to our shared lifestyle? In genuine curiousity, I'd like to hear more about your perspective here.
On a note unrelated to that, but related to the larger thread, I did know one young couple in which the woman was extremely domineering, and ordered her husband not only to work full-time, but to work full-time in a job he hated, with a very long commute. She "required" him to earn a certain (very high) salary, and said she would leave him if he didn't. She also gave him explicit orders as to when to request a raise and for precisely how much. A very different situation from OP's (the wife refused to work, for starters), but reading this thread I'm reminded of how profoundly sad I felt watching that whole scenario. I asked her if she might consider working, if she wouldn't love more time with her husband, if she was concerned about his sadness... She said she didn't think she'd be able to get a job (lack of experience), that she wanted to stay home in any case, that this was the deal, etc. I really felt quite heartbroken for the young husband. He was incredibly smart and hardworking (and kind and helpful and sweet and handsome), but also very passive and even browbeaten. Yes, I would love to have seen him learn skills in standing up for himself within his marriage! I haven't seen them for a long time, and really hope they're doing better now.
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Your language suggests that you need to get permission, approval from your wife to do anything.
This raises a flag to me, as a true partnership isn't about getting permission from one another.
Because I am actively learning about such things (in order to shift my own patterns), I would love to hear more about this concept, please, little_owl. I get that we want partnerships, equality...but don't we have to have a partner's agreement before we implement a change to our shared lifestyle? In genuine curiousity, I'd like to hear more about your perspective here.
You learn to pick a partner who wants to work with you, not have you work for them.
For instance, when this OP had gone to his wife, the ideal partnership would have involved her saying, "This is an interesting idea, but I have some concerns. My concerns are X. Do you think the benefits outweigh those concerns? Is there a way for us to make this happen while alleviating 80% of my concerns? etc" During a discussion like this, the conversation should be evolving while each partner contributes, thinks about it and returns to discuss some more.
In a good partnership, each spouse tries to maximize both spouse's happiness - not just their own.
You shouldn't ever be in a position where you're asking your partner, in essence, for permission to be happy. When you tell your partner what you need, their instinct should be to look for ways to make that work. Will compromises be involved? Probably. That's part of the partnership.
If you say to your partner, "I need to make X changes in order to be happy" and the response is the equivalent of "Too bad for you. Suck it up. In my top ten list of things I'm willing to sacrifice, your happiness is number 1," then that's not a partnership. That's a master-servant relationship.
Not every solution you come up with in your partnership will be 100% successful or involve instant gratification. But there should be an effort to come up with a compromise of some sort. Some give and take. It's not easy to resolve, for example: "I want to quit my job and move to a hippy commune and I can only truly be happy if I use leaves as toilet paper!" But I know a couple for whom the hippy commune dilemma was a legitimate problem, and they ended up deciding to take extended, year-long breaks every few years in which they live apart.
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Wow, what a thread. Kudos to OP for sticking with it and coming back to comment.
The OP has been incredibly successful: he is a millionaire who earns the best part of $200,000 per annum and has a wife and new baby. The problem is not his wife or his marriage, but the fact that he has realised that he hates his job. That sounds pretty reasonable to me: a job which pays that much could very well be highly pressured, frequently require difficult and risky decisions, involve unsympathetic co-workers and provide little intrinsic reward.
OP doesn't really sound as though he is interested in the type of job which would require an MBA, or which is the same as he does now but in in a sector which pays less, or which involves moving to a different city or abroad, or which involves him starting his own business. There is no spark of interest in any of those options. So I don't get that following up on any of these options would be much of an improvement on the work situation he is in now.
So what to do? Having a period off work (whether to look after a baby or not) provides time to look up and smell the roses, but the task of gearing up to go back to work often looks pretty daunting. Proving to yourself that you can go back means that you are judging your hatred of your job from a position of strength not weakness. So I would suggest to the OP that he does go back to work, for a short while at least.
I would then suggest that the OP, having gone back to work, picks a good time and starts a conversation along the lines of "I love you, I love baby. But I hate my job and it is making me utterly miserable. I can keep on doing it for a while but I don't think I can stomach growing old doing it." He doesn't need to provide answers to the problem (ie early retirement) or ask his wife for answers (suck it up), just get her used to the idea that work is making her husband miserable. If there is a good marriage there, once she has got used to that idea and taken it on board, both are at then the point where they can start to think together about solutions.
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I wouldn't bring this up right away since you guys just had a massive fight and she's probably super stressed having recently given birth, but a good compromise might be moving to NJ. You can reduce costs with the move in a few ways, such as savings from the lower tax rate, lower costs for your car (NJ has super cheap gas, plus your insurance rates and parking fees would likely decrease), and cost savings from sending your child to public school. I know your wife prefers private schools, but there are a lot of great school districts in NJ, so you may be able to convince her. Show her this article for starters: http://www.nj.com/education/2014/08/new_jersey_has_the_best_school_systems_in_us_report_says.html (http://www.nj.com/education/2014/08/new_jersey_has_the_best_school_systems_in_us_report_says.html)
She could still choose to commute to her current job in New York, or since she works in education, maybe she could find a great job at a New Jersey school.
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I think it's funny how so many are assuming that OP's wife has PPD and/or must be sleep-deprived, even though the OP never suggested any such thing. Could be their baby is sleeping 5-6 hours a night without waking, and the wife gets to take naps all day, who knows.
A likely alternative explanation -- that the wife is just opposed to giving up the lifestyle (based on the reasons the OP actually has stated, such as her upbringing and feelings about money) -- seems to have been glossed over or ignored. Occam's Razor, and all that. We didn't have a newborn, and I got 99% of the same reaction from my wife, so...
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There is a 50% divorce rate in this country for many reasons, chief among them is a lack of values alignment among husband and wife. It's surprising that it took THIS conversation to unearth such a lack of alignment, but there you go.
All I can say to your wife is -- give it a decade and a half. Perhaps she won't be as 'married' to location as she is now. There are so many awesome places to live in this country and world. But I did not used to feel this way. And we still live in an extremely expensive area. That said, pounding away in middle management year after year and paying a fart load of taxes can change one's perspectives and open up one's mind over time.
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It seems like you tossed out a proposal to majorly upheave nearly every aspect of your lives. Of course she freaked out.
Are the things she mentions wanting things you currently have or have discussed? if so, then I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect any reaction other than freaking out.
Adults should never "freak out" and threaten divorce when their partner simply broaches a subject. Yes it would be a major life change IF THEY DID IT, but he simply raised a "hey what if we..." situation. If you can't do that without your partner 'freaking out' then you will not be able to ever discuss any important issues with them.
We already have a term for freaking out when somebody brings up something you don't like: it's called a temper tantrum, and mature adults don't do it, children do.
Agreed. Sorry to hear your wife acted immaturely. However, bear in mind you are proposing a radically different change in lifestyle and possibly, life goals. We don't know much about your existing relationship, life goals, and communication styles. But perhaps if you are willing to share, go ahead and let us know more about these key topics.
I would suggest if you can, to research the MMM articles about introducing Mustachianism to your partner. This is not easily especially if they equate spending to a source of pleasure and it is a "right". I've found these are both red flags, but spending as an escape, hobby or as a leisurely activity, often highlights other concerns. Just like spending as an entitlement because they earned it, needs a reward, or how one works hard, so they deserve to play hard. Side note, I greatly dislike that phrase and it is commonplace all over dating profiles.
Be patient, use active listening and if needed go to counseling especially if you want to keep this relationship. Good luck.
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Ha- I've read brining up bebe and so has my wife. She'd be totally into that - as long as I had a job in Paris. European travel with no job is a no go for her (as of now)
Totally agree that cutting spending is the tail wagging the dog at this point. There may be some hope of moving to a cheaper place in the city and cutting expenses to become FI while staying here. Still a long way to go to get the wife to that point.
She goes back to work next week and is staring to have second thoughts. Told me this morning that she'd give it to November to see if she'd continue working. Wasn't really sure how to react to that - on the one hand she's suggesting similar changes to what she criticized me for but on the other hand I want to say "great! I'd like to join you". For now I said nothing. She said "what do you think?" And I responded "yeah let's see"
As some of you pointed out, it would help if I had something more concrete to offer than just the financial angle. Any thoughts on what could be the benefits to her of me quitting too? Any thoughts on ways to frame it in a more positive light (other than just spending more time with my son/helping with child care)?
The truth is I'd be content just doing that, doing errands, cooking, etc. But if I had something that sounded more compelling I think it would help. I've never been a go getter ambitious type so it's a bit unnatural for me to think in that way. No ideas or interest in starting my own business for example.
As far as sharing mmm articles, I have to tread carefully with that. I could see her just finding it ridiculous and ripping it apart. "So is this where you're getting these ideas?! You need to spend less time on the Internet! "
At this point she's probably rather I have a porn addiction than reading an early retirement forum!
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I think it's funny how so many are assuming that OP's wife has PPD and/or must be sleep-deprived, even though the OP never suggested any such thing. Could be their baby is sleeping 5-6 hours a night without waking, and the wife gets to take naps all day, who knows.
A likely alternative explanation -- that the wife is just opposed to giving up the lifestyle (based on the reasons the OP actually has stated, such as her upbringing and feelings about money) -- seems to have been glossed over or ignored.
I don't think (all) those of us pitching this are assuming she has these, just noting that these are very real possibilities, potential variables. Even if she were getting 5 hours of sleep at night, and a nap or two in the day, that wouldn't (in my experience) resolve the experience of the horrible hormonal shifts, the drain from breastfeeding on a standard Western diet, or even the exhaustion experienced when sleep is not a solid stretch of 7-9 hours and the sleep that's had is broken unnaturally as though by alarm vs according to one's own rhythm.
Absolutely it's just as possible that she is perfectly healthy, nurtured, calm, delighted with parenting, and physically/chemically balanced and just totally hates the ideas presented, yes.
We simply don't know where she's coming from, and can't know unless she posts herself. But personally, I think it's wise for the OP to consider all possible variables, as starting a conversation from a compassionate place which assumes the other is in need of kindness and gentleness is always yummy. Of course, I feel OP deserves the same considerations regarding his dreams for change.
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I think it's funny how so many are assuming that OP's wife has PPD and/or must be sleep-deprived, even though the OP never suggested any such thing. Could be their baby is sleeping 5-6 hours a night without waking, and the wife gets to take naps all day, who knows.
A likely alternative explanation -- that the wife is just opposed to giving up the lifestyle (based on the reasons the OP actually has stated, such as her upbringing and feelings about money) -- seems to have been glossed over or ignored.
I don't think (all) those of us pitching this are assuming she has these, just noting that these are very real possibilities, potential variables. Even if she were getting 5 hours of sleep at night, and a nap or two in the day, that wouldn't (in my experience) resolve the experience of the horrible hormonal shifts, the drain from breastfeeding on a standard Western diet, or even the exhaustion experienced when sleep is not a solid stretch of 7-9 hours and the sleep that's had is broken unnaturally as though by alarm vs according to one's own rhythm.
Absolutely it's just as possible that she is perfectly healthy, nurtured, calm, delighted with parenting, and physically/chemically balanced and just totally hates the ideas presented, yes.
We simply don't know where she's coming from, and can't know unless she posts herself. But personally, I think it's wise for the OP to consider all possible variables, as starting a conversation from a compassionate place which assumes the other is in need of kindness and gentleness is always yummy. Of course, I feel OP deserves the same considerations regarding his dreams for change.
No doubt we are both sleep deprived but I honestly don't think she has ppd. Any suggestions on how to have the conversation in a kind/gentle way? I realize I need to just sit on it at this point but it's such a loaded topic that me just asking "so what are your dreams" would set her off again.
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Disagree about cutting spending being unimportant. The first and most important insight I picked up here is that living frugally is a life skill that takes time and dedication develop. You should be very good at it before you retire.
In your tax bracket, it's also the most impactful thing you can do to improve your long-term financial situation. That does help you. The better your financial situation, the fewer items on your wife's list that you need to bring her around on. Yours is a problem that lends itself to working on from both ends and meeting in the middle.
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She goes back to work next week and is staring to have second thoughts. Told me this morning that she'd give it to November to see if she'd continue working. Wasn't really sure how to react to that - on the one hand she's suggesting similar changes to what she criticized me for but on the other hand I want to say "great! I'd like to join you". For now I said nothing. She said "what do you think?" And I responded "yeah let's see"
As some of you pointed out, it would help if I had something more concrete to offer than just the financial angle. Any thoughts on what could be the benefits to her of me quitting too? Any thoughts on ways to frame it in a more positive light (other than just spending more time with my son/helping with child care)?
How did she frame it when she told you that she's giving it until November? I mean, you just told her how unhappy you were at your job and how you wanted to move to a lower COL area... surely she said -something- about that when she was telling you that she may want to quit her job and stay home with the kid.
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I ask my husband on a weekly basis to quit his high-paying corporate job and be a SAHD with our infant. We are 100% debt free and absolutely do not need both of us working high-paying jobs.
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She goes back to work next week and is staring to have second thoughts. Told me this morning that she'd give it to November to see if she'd continue working. Wasn't really sure how to react to that - on the one hand she's suggesting similar changes to what she criticized me for but on the other hand I want to say "great! I'd like to join you". For now I said nothing. She said "what do you think?" And I responded "yeah let's see"
As some of you pointed out, it would help if I had something more concrete to offer than just the financial angle. Any thoughts on what could be the benefits to her of me quitting too? Any thoughts on ways to frame it in a more positive light (other than just spending more time with my son/helping with child care)?
How did she frame it when she told you that she's giving it until November? I mean, you just told her how unhappy you were at your job and how you wanted to move to a lower COL area... surely she said -something- about that when she was telling you that she may want to quit her job and stay home with the kid.
Nope! She mentioned later that I shoukd use my remaining time off to look for a new job.
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I ask my husband on a weekly basis to quit his high-paying corporate job and be a SAHD with our infant. We are 100% debt free and absolutely do not need both of us working high-paying jobs.
What does he say? Why's he not interested?
SAH really is not for everyone. DH is a SAHD, and seems to like it, but it's hard. DH has done great, but if he was not 100% stoked about it, I'm not sure how well it would have worked.
Maybe he'll consider it (or you each doing it PT) when your child is in school? Eg., I wouldn't do it now with 3 yr old DD (just don't think I'd be fulfilled/happy), but we're planning on DH and I both working PT once DD's in school and then both splitting after school days (with maybe a little after school care for a day a week or so in addition if the schedule requires).
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Nope! She mentioned later that I should use my remaining time off to look for a new job.
I just don't really know what to say.
Tell her that you've decided to quit and start your own business and if it's successful she can quit her job.
Tell her you fully support her quitting her job if she agrees to move to Kansas City or St Louis or somewhere reasonable where you can both FIRE.
Or tell her nothing and keep trucking along. But in that case, you should probably at least push her into a state with favorable alimony limits, because I just can't imagine how this kind of one-sidedness in a relationship stands the test of time.
Good luck to you.
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We didn't have a newborn, and I got 99% of the same reaction from my wife, so...
I agree with your whole post DD but wanted to hone in here.
In my experience it was "We didn't have a newborn, and I got 99%maybe 40% of the same reaction from my wife, so..."
I don't think is an uncommon reaction. It might be a bit extreme, but not uncommon. We have to remember this is some extreme fringe stuff here people. Yes it's catching on, but you have to flip yourself onto your head and forget everything mainstream to understand and comprehend it. We are the outliers. Don't forget that.
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Maybe, with her lack of experience with budgets, she really hasn't understood that it's not a matter of you or her being able to quit, but both. Some people on the forum have mentioned putting together presentations explaining the concept to their spouses accompanied by the specific numbers of their situation. She may get it better in visual form, especially if she's not a numbers person. And it makes you seem very respectful of her to go to the trouble of putting something together rather than just throwing an idea around in conversation. She should understand that the two of you ought to go over the numbers anyway to determine whether her quitting her job is a viable option (in the popular version of the world that doesn't understand that you're financially independent, of course) and a presentation format would mean she has to listen and pay attention to you for a time rather than just reacting at the first objection.
Continuing the optimism, at least it sounds like she's gotten the message that you're unhappy at your current job. Are you sure she wasn't referring to the possibility of your getting a lower-paying job that you liked more?
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As some of you pointed out, it would help if I had something more concrete to offer than just the financial angle. Any thoughts on what could be the benefits to her of me quitting too? Any thoughts on ways to frame it in a more positive light (other than just spending more time with my son/helping with child care)?
The truth is I'd be content just doing that, doing errands, cooking, etc. But if I had something that sounded more compelling I think it would help. I've never been a go getter ambitious type so it's a bit unnatural for me to think in that way. No ideas or interest in starting my own business for example.
This sounds like a good idea, and is kinda what I'm going to try with my (less resistive) wife. For example an option; my wife likes animals, worked at a shelter etc. I'd like to move somewhere more rural and have chickens goats etc. "wouldn't it be fun to have animals around, milk goats, whatever..?" That kind of thing. I have no ideas for you, but maybe something to think about? What do you think she want to do, if she had the choice? (Hopefully not something that costs a ton..)
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Nope! She mentioned later that I shoukd use my remaining time off to look for a new job.
Well this sounds like both good and bad news; bad that she thinks it's your responsibility to be the one that works, but good that she at least is open to you getting a new job.
Your web consulting career is something I know nothing about so maybe this is off-base, but is it something you could freelance? If you can present the numbers for living in a cheaper city/overseas and not needing either of you to work, maybe having a freelance web consulting business would be enough of a safety net for the "just in case" scenarios she's worried about.
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Your language suggests that you need to get permission, approval from your wife to do anything.
This raises a flag to me, as a true partnership isn't about getting permission from one another.
Because I am actively learning about such things (in order to shift my own patterns), I would love to hear more about this concept, please, little_owl. I get that we want partnerships, equality...but don't we have to have a partner's agreement before we implement a change to our shared lifestyle? In genuine curiousity, I'd like to hear more about your perspective here.
Here's my take....the idea of permission, getting approval...all that assumes implicitly that one has the power to give (or deny) the desired action.
Absolutely, partners need to agree on pathsforward, but not get permission. A small but really important distinction. I have never gotten permission from my partner to do anything.
In the spirit of partnership, we work to create plans together. We address problems by workingthrough them as a team. It's never "oh man, I need his permission to do x" but instead "it would be fantastic if we could acheive x, how can we do that."
An example from my life....I would like to move out West when FIRE. My partner is not quite there. So, we just keep discussing. We focus on the type of lifestyle and geography we want, eventually we will come to a conclusiion together. But I am not trying to "get his permission.". We are thinking through where (if) we move together. We have 119 months to figure it out, so I am sure we will eventually decide :)
Hope that helps provide a bit of my perspective...and sorryfor the threadjack!
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Any suggestions on how to have the conversation in a kind/gentle way? I realize I need to just sit on it at this point but it's such a loaded topic that me just asking "so what are your dreams" would set her off again.
I think the kind and gentle way to ask any question related to the original topic is to not ask it right now :)
I think ask only thinks like, "What do you need [in this second]?" Or, "What would feel good for you right now? Can I make you a nice supper? What are you craving?" Or, "What can I do for you right now? Would you like me to rub your feet/take Baby out for a walk?"
After three months of that, while you are gazing happily at each other over Baby's head, ask, "What would you most love for Baby?" And totally listen. And after she tells you, and you reflect it all back, and she is beaming at your total understanding (not necessarily agreement, just a full grasp of what she said), smile and give a long list of what, from her dream, you wish for too. And then leave it at that for a bit.
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Looks like everything been said here.
My questions are financial. You guys make $200k together? IN nyc that's about 11k take home and you spend 9k per month? How did you save 2.4 million with these numbers?
My husband and I spent 6 years in manhattan while he was on 150...and we do not have anywhere near 2mm.
A LOT is happening with her body right now. You are at home with a LOT of time to think. Do something else for a few months (guessing you are meant to go back to work soon?)...get back to your old schedule for a while then reevaluate. I would flip on my husband too. Too much change too fast. She has hopes and dreams with the kiddo too.
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I want to add that for a woman, hormonal she is nesting. She needs stability and security for her little baby. It's completely natural for her to not be open to any other changes at this point. Put yourself in her shoes for the time being, she did just give birth! :)
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Nope! She mentioned later that I shoukd use my remaining time off to look for a new job.
Well this sounds like both good and bad news; bad that she thinks it's your responsibility to be the one that works, but good that she at least is open to you getting a new job.
Your web consulting career is something I know nothing about so maybe this is off-base, but is it something you could freelance? If you can present the numbers for living in a cheaper city/overseas and not needing either of you to work, maybe having a freelance web consulting business would be enough of a safety net for the "just in case" scenarios she's worried about.
Yes in theory. But I'd have to build up a client base beforehand and show consistent income. And honestly I have little interest in doing that ; it would end up being longer hours and more stress. Plus I have 0 interest in websites at this point. In addition, I've been doing management stuff just long enough to be out of touch with development while still sucking at management. One idea that's kicking around is to try and go freelance with my current job though. Not sure how to feel that out and whether they'd be amenable - my boss doesn't seem to like me much and my last review was poor.
Some slight glimmers of hope, however, in a conversation with my wife this evening;
-she said that she feels like we've been at each other's throats
-acknowledged how hard it's going to be for me to go back to work
-spoke about the idea of living abroad. She has family in Australia and woukdnt mind living there for a while. She'd be fine with our son attending public school there!
-I asked her what we'd do with our place if that happened. She said that we'd sell it.
-I asked what she'd do with the money? Savings account or invest it? Answer was invest it somewhere "safe". I said that was probably a good idea since you don't want to lose out to inflation by putting it in savings
-she said she likes the idea of having a few irons in the fire: me trying to transfer to Australia, me trying to find a new job, me applying to grad school. Granted all of this is focused on what I can do but one step at a time
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I just stayed calm, listened and asked questions. Tried to resist the urge to "pounce". When I did say something I framed it in terms of benefits to our son,
I think it would be a huge win to simply cash out of this place and get it invested. Once she sees the dividend income it could set a more concrete understanding for her of FI. Personally, I believe in total return not just dividends but that's a debate for another day.
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Because I am actively learning about such things (in order to shift my own patterns), I would love to hear more about this concept, please...
Thank you so much, smart Cpa Cat and wise little_owl! Great food for thought on the nuances/distinctions. What you two propose is totally my dream for relationship (not currently in one). Appreciated.
rjg: I LOVE the sounds of what you and your wife just did!! Beautiful! Huge kudos on "resisting the urge to pounce" with ideas/thoughts, on focusing on receiving, listening, and looking for and affirming common ground. NICE! Really awesome.
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Nope! She mentioned later that I shoukd use my remaining time off to look for a new job.
Well this sounds like both good and bad news; bad that she thinks it's your responsibility to be the one that works, but good that she at least is open to you getting a new job.
Your web consulting career is something I know nothing about so maybe this is off-base, but is it something you could freelance? If you can present the numbers for living in a cheaper city/overseas and not needing either of you to work, maybe having a freelance web consulting business would be enough of a safety net for the "just in case" scenarios she's worried about.
Yes in theory. But I'd have to build up a client base beforehand and show consistent income. And honestly I have little interest in doing that ; it would end up being longer hours and more stress. Plus I have 0 interest in websites at this point. In addition, I've been doing management stuff just long enough to be out of touch with development while still sucking at management. One idea that's kicking around is to try and go freelance with my current job though. Not sure how to feel that out and whether they'd be amenable - my boss doesn't seem to like me much and my last review was poor.
Some slight glimmers of hope, however, in a conversation with my wife this evening;
-she said that she feels like we've been at each other's throats
-acknowledged how hard it's going to be for me to go back to work
-spoke about the idea of living abroad. She has family in Australia and woukdnt mind living there for a while. She'd be fine with our son attending public school there!
-I asked her what we'd do with our place if that happened. She said that we'd sell it.
-I asked what she'd do with the money? Savings account or invest it? Answer was invest it somewhere "safe". I said that was probably a good idea since you don't want to lose out to inflation by putting it in savings
-she said she likes the idea of having a few irons in the fire: me trying to transfer to Australia, me trying to find a new job, me applying to grad school. Granted all of this is focused on what I can do but one step at a time
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I just stayed calm, listened and asked questions. Tried to resist the urge to "pounce". When I did say something I framed it in terms of benefits to our son,
I think it would be a huge win to simply cash out of this place and get it invested. Once she sees the dividend income it could set a more concrete understanding for her of FI. Personally, I believe in total return not just dividends but that's a debate for another day.
Wow, she really like to be in control of your relationship.
It sounds like, and I hate to use this word, but I think it is accurate, slowly manipulate her into aligning with you.
It's great she doesn't want to do something nuts like "hold on" to your current apartment.
When you purchase your new real estate, you can have a more active say in ensuring it is more frugal. Same for new vehicles.
With one/both not working you don't need a nanny/cleaner.
Boom you just saved $5000/mo right there.
Perhaps moving abroad would give you guys a chance to reset your relationship and your financial situation.
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We are the outliers. Don't forget that.
An excellent though unfortunate point, and one that I have to remember when talking about FI with my own spouse. It's easy to get caught up and not notice that the other person is looking sideways.
So much money could be saved on one parent stayng home (nanny, food, dry cleaning, house cleaner, transportation, private school if you homeschool). Also, if she stays home, would she "need" the hair and nails to be done? Hmm, you guys could probaly save her income if she were to stay home.
FWIW, here you could have a mansion for $500K. You guys would be wise to move to a lower cost of living area.
Any stay-at-home parent with a consumer's mindset can find a way to mentally justify new 'needs'. It can be that he or she 'needs' a spendy pampering session because of slaving away at home all day, or just has to buy a new X or Y for the kids. As always, it's about values.
+1 to a lower COL area whether it's here or overseas. Another poster mentioned that the pace is different elsewhere; maybe just stopping to smell the roses (in another country if need be) will really put things in perspective for OP & wife.
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rjg:
So with all the little crumbs that you have mentioned about your job. High income, recent transition to management, New York, low-key & laid back, and that you hate your job (but you have not said that you hate your industry / sector per say since you would consider free-lance). I am not asking for exact details, but could you share what general job sector / field you are in?
Just out of curiosity?
I'm not sure to picture you as something like a suit wearing finance type, maybe one of the legal fields, or maybe a sneaker & lab-coat science guy.
Oddly enough your typos make me think science guy?
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Nope! She mentioned later that I shoukd use my remaining time off to look for a new job.
Well this sounds like both good and bad news; bad that she thinks it's your responsibility to be the one that works, but good that she at least is open to you getting a new job.
Your web consulting career is something I know nothing about so maybe this is off-base, but is it something you could freelance? If you can present the numbers for living in a cheaper city/overseas and not needing either of you to work, maybe having a freelance web consulting business would be enough of a safety net for the "just in case" scenarios she's worried about.
Yes in theory. But I'd have to build up a client base beforehand and show consistent income. And honestly I have little interest in doing that ; it would end up being longer hours and more stress. Plus I have 0 interest in websites at this point. In addition, I've been doing management stuff just long enough to be out of touch with development while still sucking at management. One idea that's kicking around is to try and go freelance with my current job though. Not sure how to feel that out and whether they'd be amenable - my boss doesn't seem to like me much and my last review was poor.
Some slight glimmers of hope, however, in a conversation with my wife this evening;
-she said that she feels like we've been at each other's throats
-acknowledged how hard it's going to be for me to go back to work
-spoke about the idea of living abroad. She has family in Australia and woukdnt mind living there for a while. She'd be fine with our son attending public school there!
-I asked her what we'd do with our place if that happened. She said that we'd sell it.
-I asked what she'd do with the money? Savings account or invest it? Answer was invest it somewhere "safe". I said that was probably a good idea since you don't want to lose out to inflation by putting it in savings
-she said she likes the idea of having a few irons in the fire: me trying to transfer to Australia, me trying to find a new job, me applying to grad school. Granted all of this is focused on what I can do but one step at a time
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I just stayed calm, listened and asked questions. Tried to resist the urge to "pounce". When I did say something I framed it in terms of benefits to our son,
I think it would be a huge win to simply cash out of this place and get it invested. Once she sees the dividend income it could set a more concrete understanding for her of FI. Personally, I believe in total return not just dividends but that's a debate for another day.
Wow, she really like to be in control of your relationship.
It sounds like, and I hate to use this word, but I think it is accurate, slowly manipulate her into aligning with you.
It's great she doesn't want to do something nuts like "hold on" to your current apartment.
Why such negativity on what seemed to me like great progress in considering other options? How is it controlling to agree that maybe *as he wants to do* she'd support him looking for a new job, moving locations, or going to grad school?
Re nuts like holding onto the current apartment, please note that it is indeed counter to many popular ideas that you buy your house, let it appreciate and try to move infrequently in order to minimize substantial transaction costs. It's not surprising that it's not an immediate "YES!" to selling a home and making a huge change such as moving away from friends/family/work. Take off the MMM lens when considering whether it's nutty or might have some rational basis for objection (even if you validly disagree with it).
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rjg:
So with all the little crumbs that you have mentioned about your job. High income, recent transition to management, New York, low-key & laid back, and that you hate your job (but you have not said that you hate your industry / sector per say since you would consider free-lance). I am not asking for exact details, but could you share what general job sector / field you are in?
Just out of curiosity?
I'm not sure to picture you as something like a suit wearing finance type, maybe one of the legal fields, or maybe a sneaker & lab-coat science guy.
Oddly enough your typos make me think science guy?
Ha-yes. Computer science actually. I work for a large agency that, among other things, builds websites for large corporations.
All of the legal and finance guys I know make 500k +. My salary sounds good, but in the NYC professional world it's not too special.
Sorry for all the typos. I'm typing all of this on my phone with no proof reading.
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I think it's funny how so many are assuming that OP's wife has PPD and/or must be sleep-deprived, even though the OP never suggested any such thing. Could be their baby is sleeping 5-6 hours a night without waking, and the wife gets to take naps all day, who knows.
A likely alternative explanation -- that the wife is just opposed to giving up the lifestyle (based on the reasons the OP actually has stated, such as her upbringing and feelings about money) -- seems to have been glossed over or ignored. Occam's Razor, and all that. We didn't have a newborn, and I got 99% of the same reaction from my wife, so...
Because at three month, it is unlikely that the infant is sleeping more than 2-3 hours at a time and even if we discount PPD, the hormones caused from being post partum and nursing can cause serious issues. If you don't have a kid, why don't you ask others when the average kid goes more than 6 hours at a time? Maybe everyone jumped to it because it is the simplest reason.
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Some slight glimmers of hope, however, in a conversation with my wife this evening;
-she said that she feels like we've been at each other's throats
-acknowledged how hard it's going to be for me to go back to work
-spoke about the idea of living abroad. She has family in Australia and woukdnt mind living there for a while. She'd be fine with our son attending public school there!
-I asked her what we'd do with our place if that happened. She said that we'd sell it.
-I asked what she'd do with the money? Savings account or invest it? Answer was invest it somewhere "safe". I said that was probably a good idea since you don't want to lose out to inflation by putting it in savings
-she said she likes the idea of having a few irons in the fire: me trying to transfer to Australia, me trying to find a new job, me applying to grad school. Granted all of this is focused on what I can do but one step at a time
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I just stayed calm, listened and asked questions. Tried to resist the urge to "pounce". When I did say something I framed it in terms of benefits to our son,
Well done. That actually sounds like some really positive movement.
The fact that she is willing to come around to a lot of your points i.e. sell the house, child in public school, investing, as well as at least acknowledging how you are feeling, is a good first step.
Your approach seems to be the right one at this point. Gentle, subtle manipulation via smart question asking.
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Look ok. Why wasn't this brought up before you had the baby? Seems like you both enjoyed the NY lifestyle prebaby, and at the moment that is still your wife's 'life'. I've lived there as a mom with a kid in private school. Yes, there is immense pressure to have your kid in a good school. My guess is 90% of these posters are people that have not lived the life of a Manhattanite. Therefore the extremes that you both are subjected too are completely unrelatable because in Manhattan it's 100% worse or more intense than any place else in the USA.
OP you state that your income is 9k of your gross? So she has a low paying job. Also you can't retire there and quit your job meaning she has to move and leaving manhattan is a 180 degree lifestyle change. I get it. I get her view I get your view. I think at 39 the timing is a bit off at the moment with the baby and all. I'm sure she has dear friends there she wants to have the baby around 'her community' per say.
I still don't get your Net worth at all though.
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Regarding our net worth:
-my wife's contribution is half our home equity (roughly 750). She got this from an inheritance.
-my contribution is a result of: 401k, stock option/ESPP gains from a previous company, real estate appreciation, after tax savings and investing (when I was single I spent about 3-4k per month and invested the rest). Started working at 22 wjth a good salary out of school
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Looks like everything been said here.
My questions are financial. You guys make $200k together? IN nyc that's about 11k take home and you spend 9k per month? How did you save 2.4 million with these numbers?
My husband and I spent 6 years in manhattan while he was on 150...and we do not have anywhere near 2mm.
A LOT is happening with her body right now. You are at home with a LOT of time to think. Do something else for a few months (guessing you are meant to go back to work soon?)...get back to your old schedule for a while then reevaluate. I would flip on my husband too. Too much change too fast. She has hopes and dreams with the kiddo too.
I was actually wondering the same thing. I assumed it was either because a large chunk of "expenses" go to equity, equity increase due to booming re market, and/or higher salary in the past.
Would love to hear the real answer from OP
THis thread really struck a nerve w the board , must remember the thread title for my future Seo endeavors
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Looks like everything been said here.
My questions are financial. You guys make $200k together? IN nyc that's about 11k take home and you spend 9k per month? How did you save 2.4 million with these numbers?
My husband and I spent 6 years in manhattan while he was on 150...and we do not have anywhere near 2mm.
A LOT is happening with her body right now. You are at home with a LOT of time to think. Do something else for a few months (guessing you are meant to go back to work soon?)...get back to your old schedule for a while then reevaluate. I would flip on my husband too. Too much change too fast. She has hopes and dreams with the kiddo too.
I was actually wondering the same thing. I assumed it was either because a large chunk of "expenses" go to equity, equity increase due to booming re market, and/or higher salary in the past.
Would love to hear the real answer from OP
THis thread really struck a nerve w the board , must remember the thread title for my future Seo endeavors
Just answered this question. Look at my previous post.
I was thinking the same thing regarding seo. Maybe I should start my own blog. I thought maybe 3 people would respond but this had turned into a very interesting discussion. Being the internet it's nice that name calling has been kept to a minimum
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As far as private education goes, my wife works in the education field (and is very opposed to things like the common core and the "testing" mandated by no child left behind. She thinks that the best private schools foster creativity and give more individual attention. I disagree but she's "the expert". I have suggested that maybe she try and find work as an admissions officer at such a school - maybe that would eventually allow us to send our kid there for reduced tuition. She seemed to like that idea. Of course, the schools she likes are either in NYC or Boston so that doesn't help wjth cost of living.
Dude, Boston and NYC are not in the same league. Take it from someone who made the move (8 years ago), and whose wife bore some of the same traits as yours and only made the move kicking and screaming. She pouted for almost a full year (always making off-hand comments about how Boston sucked and "it wasn't New York" blah, blah, blah). I took a pay cut to come to Boston, but ended up with the same take home pay (no city tax, lower state tax), and everything, from housing to gas to food, is cheaper in Boston. Now, if she wants to live in the Back Bay, or Newton, all bets are off, but otherwise, places like Cambridge, Somerville, East Boston, Jamaica Plain, etc, etc, are exceptional places to live only minutes from downtown. And Massachusetts schools are some of the best in the nation. Cambridge schools are world class. Don't rule out a move to Boston as a potential compromise. I can tell you that I've gotten FAR ahead since moving here. Best thing we could have done financially.
Cambridge prices are more in line with Newton than JP or East Boston. Somerville's not quite as bad, but getting up there as more people get priced out of Cambridge. Neither are in the same stratosphere as NYC prices, but the 2-bedroom down the street from me just went under contract for $720K after a bidding war.
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Looks like everything been said here.
My questions are financial. You guys make $200k together? IN nyc that's about 11k take home and you spend 9k per month? How did you save 2.4 million with these numbers?
My husband and I spent 6 years in manhattan while he was on 150...and we do not have anywhere near 2mm.
A LOT is happening with her body right now. You are at home with a LOT of time to think. Do something else for a few months (guessing you are meant to go back to work soon?)...get back to your old schedule for a while then reevaluate. I would flip on my husband too. Too much change too fast. She has hopes and dreams with the kiddo too.
I was actually wondering the same thing. I assumed it was either because a large chunk of "expenses" go to equity, equity increase due to booming re market, and/or higher salary in the past.
Would love to hear the real answer from OP
THis thread really struck a nerve w the board , must remember the thread title for my future Seo endeavors
Just answered this question. Look at my previous post.
I was thinking the same thing regarding seo. Maybe I should start my own blog. I thought maybe 3 people would respond but this had turned into a very interesting discussion. Being the internet it's nice that name calling has been kept to a minimum
Unfortunately, when there are so any responses it's harder to filter noise ( including me). I think half the responses started "I didn't read all the replies, but xyz"
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Did you have a massive inheritance or something? 2.3 million net worth is huge for being so young.
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Did you have a massive inheritance or something? 2.3 million net worth is huge for being so young.
I answered this already.
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As someone with a kid that went public and private in NYC (Trevor)...and public in a 10 school in long island...your wife is 190% correct about her thoughts on education. I would start to read up on the history of the CC and the education system so you understand why she is saying this. You nay disagree with her, but why? Have substance to back it up. One thing is for sure regardless of schooling the kid needs parents that are emotional available to each other and the kids. Parents that are getting along.
Just fyi,
We now unschool.
If you are the breadwinner, why is the wife at work?!....Why don't she quit and you work for the sake of family stability for another year and reassess then?
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Ah inheritance. We'll is it safe to assume that she considers that 'hers?' Regardless of where it is at the moment (equity?)...she might be fearful of losing her nest egg (in theory).
So, several things I'm seeing here- big communication problems brought on by a brand new situation (baby) or lack of planning prior to baby. Your need to quit seems quite sudden and impulsive. Both of you don't agree on how the child will be raised (nanny, sahd, sahM?? (Don't understand why this isn't on the table), private school vs public vs no school, what you're retirement number is, what your family values are, what your personal values are (seems your view shifted recently), what she wants vs what you want. These are all HUGE things to get through and will take time. That's the key. No need to impulsively do a 180 on your life, because that will just wreck your family to tatters. I doubt you want to wreck your family or divorce so take it slow, very slow. You're now responsible for a little person and drastic actions could result in significant heartbreak even if you feel it is 100% better (maybe for you, perhaps not for her)
Good luck OP. You're in a great position. Go back to work and be grateful you can quit as soon as she's more on board. Sell her the dream of you both being home with your little one, spending quality time together. (Not tomorrow lol)
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It's probably wise for one or both of you to work until your baby is 1 year old for health insurance. After that, health emergencies are less likely.
If she's thinking about quitting and staying at home, you tell her the only way that you will consent to that is with a plan. The two of you start number crunching on paper and developing a plan. You agree to take some of the research and assign some to her. She needs to be an active thinker in the process and not just the vetoer. As this plan starts developing, you show her other options where you stay home also, for awhile (which could end up being extended in the long run) and you both enjoy this time with the baby. You're also going to have to get her to consider putting some money in the stock market, or you'll never keep up with inflation. Discuss the value of low cost index funds and explain how safe they are with graphs and historical data.
Don't agree to her quitting until the plan is satisfactory to both of you. She needs to keep working until you solidify the plan together. That way she's feeling the pain too and has more incentive to come up with a solution that works for both of you and devise ways to save money so that you can afford it. Your income is good, but it's not "NYC on 1 income spending $9K per month" good. Show her some cost of living numbers if you were to move and just visit the city on weekend jaunts.
If you guys move, rent for awhile. In time, she'll realize that she won't be show boating around town enjoying all the sights on a regular basis with a new baby in tow. Also having a home without a yard doesn't seem like that big of a deal until you have an energetic toddler/preschooler running around and you don't want to pack up a days worth of food and supplies and haul it over to the park for the afternoon everyday. If you rent and you guys change your mind about what your needs as a family are in two years, you have the opportunity to change course easily.
In the meantime, be calm, cool, and collected. You also sound like a sleep deprived whinypants who will do anything to avoid going back to work (I went back to work with suction cups on my boobs pulling milk for my baby even though I wanted to stay home). Suck it up until you both have agreed to a solid plan of action. Keep your eyes and ears open in the meantime for other opportunities that you might enjoy more (Maybe if you moved, you could get a fun low pay, low stress job - you'd still be working, but not hating life). Who knows, maybe you'll get laid off in a few months and offered a severance package and unemployment. Just quitting without a solid idea of what will happen next is not a great idea for you or your family. Work it out slowly and gradually. You will both be so much happier if it happens this way instead of acting like it's a fire drill.
You are both crazy if you don't think you're in the middle of a huge life change that is making you both nuts right now. Take it down a notch and give your ideas some time to stew.
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Regarding my wife working - the amount she makes covers the nanny with a little left over. She originally felt that it was important to continue working.
It's kind of hard for me to use her recent change of heart as a wedge to get into financial planning however. It makes no difference in that regard because if she stays home we don't need the nanny. And the truth is I'd prefer her spending time wjth our kid vs a nanny anyway.
Regarding her inheritance it's all in home equity at this point. I do think she considers that her nest egg and is against withdrawing from it in any form. Actually that's not entirely true. I think she'd be ok renting out a place but investing it and taking money out for living expenses would scare her.
If we do ever get to the point of fire, I suspect that she'd want to plow most of that into another place. She's just much more comfortable wjth real estate. So we'd probably end up living off of my savings while occupying hers. Just a guess - of course we aren't anywhere near that level of planning right now. And if there were an interim period where we rent, I could see her not wanting to touch that money.
And I agree that we are sleep deprived and slightly insane at this point
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Rjg, I've just rescanned your posts here. Everything you're saying about your situation screams real estate. Your wife is more comfortable with having money in it. You think she would treat income from it differently from market income. You have considerable assets in non-retirement accounts which could be used for downpayments. You need some kind of respectable "job-like" cover in FIRE. ("My Dad's in Real Estate.") It sure as hell ain't my cup of tea, and may not be yours, but it's checking enough boxes for you that you might need to acquire the taste.
Unfortunately, you're in New York, and I imagine cap rates aren't hot over there. But you're reasonably close to places in the midwest and maybe South that I've heard might be reasonable rental markets. Look up arebelspy's semi-recent post about being a remote landlord. He clearly has it down. Read what he does.
I suspect I'm the only one here who thinks this, but I seriously doubt you're anywhere near ready to FIRE, even if your wife and you agreed to it tomorrow. The problem isn't your net worth. It's the fact that you aren't accustomed to spending less than $100k/yr despite having $700k+ in home equity keeping your mortgage payment down. Troll around here for what other families of three in NYC spend per year. Maybe subtract out housing and nanny from both to get on even footing. See how far out you are. I bet that even with that adjustment, you've got at least $20k/yr in leaks to plug. You need a budget, a way to track it (YNAB or Mint), some experience tracking it, and a track record of fitting within whatever you can cashflow.
Anyway, good luck.
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Rjg, I've just rescanned your posts here. Everything you're saying about your situation screams real estate. Your wife is more comfortable with having money in it. You think she would treat income from it differently from market income. You have considerable assets in non-retirement accounts which could be used for downpayments. You need some kind of respectable "job-like" cover in FIRE. ("My Dad's in Real Estate.") It sure as hell ain't my cup of tea, and may not be yours, but it's checking enough boxes for you that you might need to acquire the taste.
Unfortunately, you're in New York, and I imagine cap rates aren't hot over there. But you're reasonably close to places in the midwest and maybe South that I've heard might be reasonable rental markets. Look up arebelspy's semi-recent post about being a remote landlord. He clearly has it down. Read what he does.
I suspect I'm the only one here who thinks this, but I seriously doubt you're anywhere near ready to FIRE, even if your wife and you agreed to it tomorrow. The problem isn't your net worth. It's the fact that you aren't accustomed to spending less than $100k/yr despite having $700k+ in home equity keeping your mortgage payment down. Troll around here for what other families of three in NYC spend per year. Maybe subtract out housing and nanny from both to get on even footing. See how far out you are. I bet that even with that adjustment, you've got at least $20k/yr in leaks to plug. You need a budget, a way to track it (YNAB or Mint), some experience tracking it, and a track record of fitting within whatever you can cashflow.
Anyway, good luck.
Yeah - as long as we remain in NYC I think fire remains out of reach. There are easily about 4k worth of expenses that are specific to working/living where we do. And of course, the private school thing alone would mean that we'd need another 1 million in assets!
I do use mint - that's how I know where all the money is going currently. My wife, otoh, hates it.
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I've never understood paying for a nanny when the job only covers the nanny. It's almost like there was to be minimal lifestyle change in the household when the baby arrived.
I remember taking my kids to central park and meeting up with nnannies fir playdates. I get that it's the norm there, but I guess it depends on what you really value- you're wife is not earning at the level in which she commands a nanny to keep her career afloat, so she is effectively working to stay away from the kid. Then she'll be working to pay for a fancy pants private school. When all of that could be provided by her, the mom.
seems to be too much 'fitting in in the mega wealthy realm of nyc' when like you said, you guys aren't mega wealthy.
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I've never understood paying for a nanny when the job only covers the nanny. It's almost like there was to be minimal lifestyle change in the household when the baby arrived.
I remember taking my kids to central park and meeting up with nnannies fir playdates. I get that it's the norm there, but I guess it depends on what you really value- you're wife is not earning at the level in which she commands a nanny to keep her career afloat, so she is effectively working to stay away from the kid. Then she'll be working to pay for a fancy pants private school. When all of that could be provided by her, the mom.
seems to be too much 'fitting in in the mega wealthy realm of nyc' when like you said, you guys aren't mega wealthy.
I am working, mostly to pay for daycare, taxes and a little savings. However, I expect my wage to increase, and daycare won't (and private school and daycare should be around the same). I also don't believe I can teach as well as good teachers, which I do expect to find at a daycare.
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I think moving out of NYC would be a healthy thing for you and your family. I've never been to Austrailia, but my Austrailian friend is one of the most laid-back people I know. Maybe it will rub off on your wife. Moving away from "home" was a great thing for our family to strengthen our relationship and to make new traditions/priorities. I would get on this idea pronto. Good luck!
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I've never understood paying for a nanny when the job only covers the nanny. It's almost like there was to be minimal lifestyle change in the household when the baby arrived.
Easy.
Money & Retirement: If you quit the workforce you lose out on: incremenetal money earned (over nanny), opportunity to put money away for retirement (including paying into SS/pensions as applicable, even if not making additional contributions, and career promotions in the meantime. By that I mean that if you are out of the workforce for 7-8 years (2 kids, spaced 2-3 years apart, until the youngest hits kindergarten), when you enter again, you'd be entering at best at your old salary. You've lost those working years, and in particular, this likely means you'll lose out nearing retirement from higher earning years. You also will likely have a harder time getting a job if you are out for 7+ years.
Divorce: If your spouse divorces you, you can be screwed (see Weapon of Mass Destruction thread) as there are a number of people that feel the stay at home spouse should not receive any support to get back on her feet, trained, in a good job, or recognition of the lost earning years hampering her career (see above). Most women in particular face a severe economic cut from divorce, more so than men. Many women do not wish to put themselves in such a precarious position.
Prefer job: Many people while they love their children, also go nuts without adult stimulation all day and/or enjoy their jobs. Stay at home parenting is not for everyone.
Help economy: Lastly, some people actually figure it helps the economy to employ one more person, or feel the nanny can bring something they can't such as a second language. (My SIL hires a housekeeper/housecleaner for this reason while serving overseas in the foreign service.)
[ETA: Equal Decision Making: See Janie's post below :)]
You don't have to do it yourself, but understanding why people do it should be easy.
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In addition to Common Cents' list I would add that the power balance in a relationship is worth considering. In this thread there are multiple suggestions that the higher earner should hold the greater share of decision making power. (OP's wife was even labelled a gold digger despite holding a full-time job and bringing $750,000 to the relationship, which comprises half their home equity in an appreciating property.)
Edited for grammar
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I'm new on the forum, so this is my first reply. I've just read most of this thread as I'm also not in the job I love and also have a lot of discussion with my wife. Two things helped me:
In negotiation with my wife the BATNA technique has helped. In general my wife is better with words while I tend to use the this is logix so we should do it approach. As she has not read MMM most steps do not sounds so logical. Focussing more on her life dreams has helped us come together: http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2014/06/19/improve-your-negotiation-skills-with-batna/ Also Wikipedia on BATNA is quite good.
Secondly. In 7 habits of highly effective people there is a whole chapter on being proactive vs reactive. In your relationship with your wife you appear (based on your posts only) quite reactive to your wife. With proactivity I mean what things can you do now to show or to improve your quality of life immediatly? What type of shared activities do you want to do and how do you want to build a relationship with your 3 month old baby. My son is now 2. I now work 4 days and spend 1 day a week doing activities. I must say the best days up to now has been 1 day looking at airplanes from the panorama deck at the airport and 1 day looking at trains at the central station. Both activities were able not due to funds but due to time. It helps improve your quality of life and showing off this higher quality at the same time.
hope my thougths help. Best of luck.
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Cambridge prices are more in line with Newton than JP or East Boston. Somerville's not quite as bad, but getting up there as more people get priced out of Cambridge. Neither are in the same stratosphere as NYC prices, but the 2-bedroom down the street from me just went under contract for $720K after a bidding war.
kmm, we might be neighbors! Similar thing just happened on my street, though I think the selling price was higher than that. Which of course makes me want to sell my place today and move to somewhere cheaper like Winter Hill, or even Ball Square, which is going to skyrocket once that T-station gets built. STILL, compared to NYC, this is chickenscratch. The unit that went for $720k on your street would easily be $1.3mil in Brooklyn (which is the closest in terms of similarity to Somerville; at least the Davis Square area anyway).
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Interesting challenge, but most importantly congrats on the baby! I'm in a somewhat similar situation with a NetWorth of 1.6M but living in slightly cheaper San Diego. My wife is partially supportive, but she also thinks MMM is a bit of a cult :-) , unduly influencing me and she certainly thinks quitting my job is too extreme. Luckily in my case, I still like my job, though I'd welcome a freedom and flexibility of FI and would cherish spending the extra time with my 3 kids.
Here are a couple specific thoughts for you:
-she insists that our kid be sent to private school - Once your FI, you'll have much more time to invest with your kids and their education. This is likely to be more valuable to them then private school.
-what if something catastrophic happens or our child has a disability that costs more money treat - if something catastrophic happens you can always choose to jump back into the labor market. You've clearly got a great skill set. The also applies if you're just "burned out"
-she thinks it sets a "bad example" if his dad "doesn't work" - Recommend starting a list of all the things you would do with your time. If you're lazing around the house then I understand her concern but if you've got a mile long list of valuable pursuits hopefully her concern diminishes.
-she only wants to live in a major city near the water such as LA, NYC, ..maybe Boston: How about great but cheaper cities like Austin, Portland, Salt Lake. The beauty of NYC is that almost any alternative will be cheaper.
-she wants us to travel a lot - FI will allow you to travel much more, although you'll be more price conscience.
One final thought is that Web Development work lends itself very well to part-time contract & consulting opportunities. How about transitioning from an FTE to a part-time contract employee.
Good luck!
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Cutting spending is important not for the dollars it puts into the account, but because it shows her that you can live more cheaply without suffering. It gets her used to the ideas, without the panic of committing to large scale changes.
OP, I still have seen (sorry if I missed it!) much mention of what conversations, if any, you had about your lives prior to this point. Were you on board with private schools and fancy houses and all the status-y things? Did you talk about your life before marriage or kids, or at all? If so, were things like private school and NYC living mutually agreed upon?
I think the level of change that your proposal reflects is important here. If you were always uncomfortable with these things, it's a bit less drastic than if, until now, you too have been a proponent of living in NYC forever and private schools (and all the rest) right beside her.
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I've never understood paying for a nanny when the job only covers the nanny. It's almost like there was to be minimal lifestyle change in the household when the baby arrived.
I remember taking my kids to central park and meeting up with nnannies fir playdates. I get that it's the norm there, but I guess it depends on what you really value- you're wife is not earning at the level in which she commands a nanny to keep her career afloat, so she is effectively working to stay away from the kid. Then she'll be working to pay for a fancy pants private school. When all of that could be provided by her, the mom.
seems to be too much 'fitting in in the mega wealthy realm of nyc' when like you said, you guys aren't mega wealthy.
I have no idea of the cost of a nanny in NYC, but do you count in all the extra non-salary perks of the job then? 401k match, health insurance, SS contribution, FSA, other insurance, lost wage increases, not keeping up with tech advances in your job, etc.
Just off the top of my head I'd calculated that the real "value" of my wife's $70K job is at least $100K, and mine about the same. So a $20K for daycare is really a bargain! I'll take that 5x return on investment any day.
Of course in addition there are the advantages of daycare; socialize the child, being thought by trained professionals (rather than us who have no idea what we're doing)
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I don't buy the undiagnosed PPD/hormone excuse. Plenty of husbands and wives of folks on this board have responded too irrationally to the "frugal lifestyle" discussion without the need for an excuse.
Yes, plenty of people react badly to the frugality discussions.
And plenty of sleep-deprived, hormonal new mothers react badly when you forget to bring home the milk.
It's so hard to explain if you've never been through it. When you are so used to having control over everything, and all of a sudden, these hormones surge and your emotions go out of control and you can't help it! You can, logically in your head, realize that you are being irrational but you cannot stop it!
I had a similar conversation with my MIL about menopause. She and my mom went through it at the same time. My MIL went through better than my mom (who fell into alcoholism and drank herself to death). She said "the weird this is that you are anxious...for no reason. And in your head, you know there is no good reason to feel anxious, but you cannot stop it or control it).
That's how new birth hormones are. FWIW, that's how lack of sleep is too, so can you imagine combining the two? I still have periods of time when my toddler gets sick and I am up with him for hours in the night. By day 3? I am a complete, emotional wreck. And I cannot control it. But three straight days of poor/ little sleep have a profound effect.
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Of course in addition there are the advantages of daycare; socialize the child, being thought by trained professionals (rather than us who have no idea what we're doing)
I hope you are not serious.
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I think it's funny how so many are assuming that OP's wife has PPD and/or must be sleep-deprived, even though the OP never suggested any such thing. Could be their baby is sleeping 5-6 hours a night without waking, and the wife gets to take naps all day, who knows.
A likely alternative explanation -- that the wife is just opposed to giving up the lifestyle (based on the reasons the OP actually has stated, such as her upbringing and feelings about money) -- seems to have been glossed over or ignored. Occam's Razor, and all that. We didn't have a newborn, and I got 99% of the same reaction from my wife, so...
Um, just based on experience, and friends, and family...the vast majority of babies wake up a lot. Even when they "sleep longer" - my 2nd child started sleeping 12 hours at 3 months - it doesn't last. Teething started and the next 8 months were hell. And he's two, but the last 6 weeks he's had three illnesses which have had him up at 1 am for a couple of hours, a few nights in a row. Add to that stress and insomnia, and even a 5 minute wake up can turn into two hours.
Statistically, that 3 month old baby isn't letting them get 7-8 hours of night (studies show that you need more than 5 or 6 hours). And if the baby sleeps 5 or 6 hours, does that start at 7 pm?
And hormones are still raging.
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Of course in addition there are the advantages of daycare; socialize the child, being thought by trained professionals (rather than us who have no idea what we're doing)
I hope you are not serious.
Why not? I have never raised a child before, and have no training in it (other than being one once). People at the daycare and schools have years of formal training and study, as well as years or decades of experience! Who would you say objectively is more qualified to take care of a child? I could put the kid down the wrong way and kill it without even knowing it. The fact that we let untrained amateurs be responsible for the life of a child without any requirement for education is actually quite insane. Can you imagine if we let people drive cars without any training? Or fly an airplane? hells no.
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Cutting spending is important not for the dollars it puts into the account, but because it shows her that you can live more cheaply without suffering. It gets her used to the ideas, without the panic of committing to large scale changes.
OP, I still have seen (sorry if I missed it!) much mention of what conversations, if any, you had about your lives prior to this point. Were you on board with private schools and fancy houses and all the status-y things? Did you talk about your life before marriage or kids, or at all? If so, were things like private school and NYC living mutually agreed upon?
I think the level of change that your proposal reflects is important here. If you were always uncomfortable with these things, it's a bit less drastic than if, until now, you too have been a proponent of living in NYC forever and private schools (and all the rest) right beside her.
Hmm- the thing about frugality is that there's generally a reason behind it. You want to save more to retire, to be FI, to get out of debt, to buy a house. None of those goals are true for her. Right now, there's little motivation for my wife. It would be one thing if she agreed in principle with ER but not with the numbers. That could be addressed partially through frugality.
Now, if I lost my job or made less money I do think she'd react and make swift changes. But right now there's just no reason for her to care.
And if I bring up the fact that I'm going to start cooking all meals, packing lunch all the time, doing all the cleaning, etc to prepare for early retirement she'd flip out again due to the reason behind it.
We both agreed on moving out of the city at some point. Private school came up, and I was against it. Turned into an argument and I just sort of dropped it (stupid I know). She later said that her mom would pay for it - which I'm not comfortable with. Of course we never discussed the fire idea because it didn't occur to me at the time. Her big money hot button was debt. She never had it in any form and wouldn't marry someone with it (I never had debt either).
As far as "status" as a motivation, I'm not seeing that. She truly believes that public schools in this country are hamstrung due to some of the federal mandates in place. She's very against all the emphasis on testing. I see her point, but I think what you do at home is more important. Since she had her masters in education it's hard to argue with her on this subject - she's the expert.
As far as the other spending goes, it's stuff she enjoys -and no one really notices or cares how much your grocery bill is for example (If status was a motivator). It's not like she buys jewelry, expensive clothes, luxury cars and hand bags. And it's not like we go to name brand vacation spots like "the hamptons". Frankly, it's easy for even frugal people to spend a lot in NYC.
Regarding her motivation for going back to work, I think the other posters did an eloquent job of explaining some of her motivations. She is having second thoughts now though.
I do hope her reaction was mostly due to sleep deprivation and hormones. So bad timing on my part.
I do think I need a better vision for what ER would look like but at the same time I think that has to be a collaborative process. Right now I'd be happy with SAHD duties and working out if I had any extra time.
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Hmm- the thing about frugality is that there's generally a reason behind it. You want to save more to retire, to be FI, to get out of debt, to buy a house. None of those goals are true for her. Right now, there's little motivation for my wife. It would be one thing if she agreed in principle with ER but not with the numbers. That could be addressed partially through frugality.
So don't focus on the frugality aspect of things, find the other reasons for making changes. Particularly with a new baby, it wouldn't be too unusual to start getting more interested or paying more attention to things like environmental issues, for example. Lots of "green" things, like cleaning using simple products (bread soda, vinegar and so on) are also the frugal option so that's one thing you could look into. Or the type of food you're eating and that kind of sustainability issue. Not to mention wanting to stay healthy. So, cycling to keep fit, not 'cos it's cheap. I'm repeating myself now because I just posted almost this exact point on a similar thread. But still, the point holds. Focus on things you can change because the changes will make you happier, not just because they'll save you money.
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And if I bring up the fact that I'm going to start cooking all meals, packing lunch all the time, doing all the cleaning, etc to prepare for early retirement she'd flip out again due to the reason behind it.
You don't need to bring these things up to do them. Just do them. She's not going to start throwing things at you when you open your refrigerator in the morning or break out a skillet in the evening. These are the kinds of things that you can be doing that might help her see some positive sides to what you're trying to do.
Lunches in particular were a huge leak for me. About $150/mo = $2k/yr, straight to the bottom line --do not pass go, do not pay taxes. How many other big leaks do you think you have? Are you self-insuring? How much do you pay other people to make coffee and bad food for you outside of work? How are the fees on your investments? How energy-efficient is your home? Do you have any idea what a reasonable price for broccoli is?
You have no where near enough to retire early and pay for private school. Sounds like you've decided not to fight on private school. That's fine. But if you want early retirement you need to be laying groundwork, both in terms of skill development, and upping your savings rate.
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I agree that OP and his wife spend a LOT of money, but I don't think that's the issue here. Packing one's lunch pails in comparison to having a nanny and a maid. And they're beyond the accumulation phase.
Ha! I think you're missing a verb here. Packing one's lunch pails pales in comparison...
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And if I bring up the fact that I'm going to start cooking all meals, packing lunch all the time, doing all the cleaning, etc to prepare for early retirement she'd flip out again due to the reason behind it.
So give her a different reason. While FI is your long term goal, saving on these things would allow you to grow a bigger "emergency" fund and if safety and stability are what drive her to want you to be working, saving more and spending less help those goals. It could also be you two saving for the move abroad, etc.
My H would love to be FI since neither of us love our work, it's the lifestyle adjustments to save and invest more that he needs to take one step at a time (and I need to be patient with the progress on so he doesn't feel like I'm nagging). Don't get me wrong, we are in teeny tiny baby step mode and I really only used the words "financially independent" last week, but that seemed to resonate. If I'd given him the other MMM reasons like lower environmental impact that don't strike a cord with him I'm pretty sure he'd have rolled his eyes at me- find a way to demonstrate a lower cost lifestyle as things that assist her goals too.
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Cutting spending is important not for the dollars it puts into the account, but because it shows her that you can live more cheaply without suffering. It gets her used to the ideas, without the panic of committing to large scale changes.
OP, I still have seen (sorry if I missed it!) much mention of what conversations, if any, you had about your lives prior to this point. Were you on board with private schools and fancy houses and all the status-y things? Did you talk about your life before marriage or kids, or at all? If so, were things like private school and NYC living mutually agreed upon?
I think the level of change that your proposal reflects is important here. If you were always uncomfortable with these things, it's a bit less drastic than if, until now, you too have been a proponent of living in NYC forever and private schools (and all the rest) right beside her.
Hmm- the thing about frugality is that there's generally a reason behind it. You want to save more to retire, to be FI, to get out of debt, to buy a house. None of those goals are true for her. Right now, there's little motivation for my wife. It would be one thing if she agreed in principle with ER but not with the numbers. That could be addressed partially through frugality.
Now, if I lost my job or made less money I do think she'd react and make swift changes. But right now there's just no reason for her to care.
And if I bring up the fact that I'm going to start cooking all meals, packing lunch all the time, doing all the cleaning, etc to prepare for early retirement she'd flip out again due to the reason behind it.
We both agreed on moving out of the city at some point. Private school came up, and I was against it. Turned into an argument and I just sort of dropped it (stupid I know). She later said that her mom would pay for it - which I'm not comfortable with. Of course we never discussed the fire idea because it didn't occur to me at the time. Her big money hot button was debt. She never had it in any form and wouldn't marry someone with it (I never had debt either).
As far as "status" as a motivation, I'm not seeing that. She truly believes that public schools in this country are hamstrung due to some of the federal mandates in place. She's very against all the emphasis on testing. I see her point, but I think what you do at home is more important. Since she had her masters in education it's hard to argue with her on this subject - she's the expert.
As far as the other spending goes, it's stuff she enjoys -and no one really notices or cares how much your grocery bill is for example (If status was a motivator). It's not like she buys jewelry, expensive clothes, luxury cars and hand bags. And it's not like we go to name brand vacation spots like "the hamptons". Frankly, it's easy for even frugal people to spend a lot in NYC.
Regarding her motivation for going back to work, I think the other posters did an eloquent job of explaining some of her motivations. She is having second thoughts now though.
I do hope her reaction was mostly due to sleep deprivation and hormones. So bad timing on my part.
I do think I need a better vision for what ER would look like but at the same time I think that has to be a collaborative process. Right now I'd be happy with SAHD duties and working out if I had any extra time.
So say you want to say for college, and retirement and then just keep uping it.
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Now, if I lost my job or made less money I do think she'd react and make swift changes. But right now there's just no reason for her to care.
You're miserable in your job. That's a reason for her to care.
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I agree that OP and his wife spend a LOT of money, but I don't think that's the issue here. Packing one's lunch pails in comparison to having a nanny and a maid. And they're beyond the accumulation phase.
Ha! I think you're missing a verb here. Packing one's lunch pails pales in comparison...
Haha, good catch! I hate it when I do that, but I'm glad it led to a good joke! But OP should start bringing an actual lunch pail to work. Preferably Spiderman.
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Now, if I lost my job or made less money I do think she'd react and make swift changes. But right now there's just no reason for her to care.
You're miserable in your job. That's a reason for her to care.
I know! It seems quite cold that she just doesn't care about the OP being miserable. Also, if she's wavering about going back to work, then she does have a reason to care. As ZippyC was saying, use that desire for her to stay home & leverage it into saving more or FIRE. If her desire to be a SAHM outweighs her desire to live in NYC, maybe the OP could search for a better job in a cheaper area & kind of segue into retirement after lowering monthly costs.
Lastly, OP, you keep saying she's not interested in status but your comments about her contradict that. She wants a spouse she can be proud of & somehow that means he has to have a good job. She also expects you to look good & she spends quite a bit of money to look good herself. These seem like status things.
P.S. Have you gotten a contract for a nanny at $2k a month or is this a ballpark? This seems like a dirt cheap price for a full time nanny of an infant.
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Yep - I'm looking for jobs in lower cost areas. Good news is that pretty much everywhere else qualifies as lower cost. Atleast it would get us out and free up some home equity.
I've overheard my wife talking to her sister, a friend and mom over the past few days. She tells everyone how much I hate my job. So I think she's starting to soften a bit on location and salary requirements. She also is doing research on getting me an Australian work visa.
That being said, any tips on making a career/industry change? Over the past few years I've looked for other jobs and the ones who are interested in me are for the same position / same type of company. When I've applied to various software companies - no response. The job mmm retired from, for example, sounds like heaven in comparison. I even tried applying for a few jobs at a tesla store (I admire the company) basically a retail position that pays maybe 30-40k. No dice.
When you've been working in 1 type of company for as long as I have I think you get pigeonholed. I've tried reframing my resume in terms of skills/accomplishments rather than specifics too.
Thanks for all the advice. I've learned a lot!
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Please stop bashing the wife already. OP has said 2x that she recommended he find another job. He doesn't want a job, he doesn't really want to be a SAHD either, but would rather do that than go back to work.
This isn't a young couple just getting started, (except for the baby) they have lived comfortably, and made decisions together that got them to this point. Not sure how long they have been together, but they are adults who should be able to communicate.
OP can't expect for this to change on a dime, and the timing is definitely not good.
Give it a year, find another job, make a plan (that includes something for her) Run the numbers and figure out what the number is for you both to stop working.
It's possible the reason she blew up when you mentioned quitting your job, is because she wants to stay home with the baby, and she needs you to be the provider.
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I've overheard my wife talking to her sister, a friend and mom over the past few days. She tells everyone how much I hate my job. So I think she's starting to soften a bit on location and salary requirements. She also is doing research on getting me an Australian work visa.
This is a great advancement! She has heard you. Awesome! That's a really big gain for this point in the dilemma.
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Please stop bashing the wife already. OP has said 2x that she recommended he find another job. He doesn't want a job, he doesn't really want to be a SAHD either, but would rather do that than go back to work.
This isn't a young couple just getting started, (except for the baby) they have lived comfortably, and made decisions together that got them to this point. Not sure how long they have been together, but they are adults who should be able to communicate.
OP can't expect for this to change on a dime, and the timing is definitely not good.
Give it a year, find another job, make a plan (that includes something for her) Run the numbers and figure out what the number is for you both to stop working.
It's possible the reason she blew up when you mentioned quitting your job, is because she wants to stay home with the baby, and she needs you to be the provider.
I actually do like being a SAHD and it occupies most of my day. Here's a typical day in the life for me:
4am: change diaper and give baby to my wife for feeding
8am: wake up and make breakfast while my wife nurses
930: take my son out for a walk and go to park
1030: come home and do "tummy time" with my son.
1130-1: nap time. Read paper and eat lunch
1-2: take son out for errands with my wife
2-3: feeding then reading to my son
3-5: nap time again. Sometimes we will try to take a nap, sometimes ill read a book or personal finance blogs
5-6: have friends it family visit (happens a lot). Sometimes my wife likes to go to a local happy hour with $1 oysters
6-730: wife nurses while I make dinner.
730-8: help my wife give son a bath, change him, get him ready for bed
8-9: hold him, sing to him, try to get him to go to bed
9-10 or 11: read book, look for jobs or read internet while my wife watches tv. Sometimes watch a movie on netflix together
10ish go to sleep
So I don't really get this idea of needing to "work" to have a "purpose" or "something to do".
Another bit of good news is that I looked again at the numbers from mint to see how much we spent since we've both been off.The spending I posted before was an average of the previous 12 months with the nanny added in (she hasn't started yet).
Even wjth the COBRA premium of 1200/month, monthly spending was about 6k. That also includes about 2k worth of spending on various medical expenses that I hope to get reimbursed for from my hsa. Still very far from mustachian but it includes our expensive housing situation and living in NYC in general. Anyway, it made me feel a little better.
In addition my wife has being into doing various "hustles" to make money here and there. She signs up for focus groups, and flips baby stuff she buys on eBay for a profit. I'd estimate she averages about 3-400/month. Not much but I like the way she's thinking.
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Yep - I'm looking for jobs in lower cost areas. Good news is that pretty much everywhere else qualifies as lower cost. Atleast it would get us out and free up some home equity.
I've overheard my wife talking to her sister, a friend and mom over the past few days. She tells everyone how much I hate my job. So I think she's starting to soften a bit on location and salary requirements. She also is doing research on getting me an Australian work visa.
That being said, any tips on making a career/industry change? Over the past few years I've looked for other jobs and the ones who are interested in me are for the same position / same type of company. When I've applied to various software companies - no response. The job mmm retired from, for example, sounds like heaven in comparison. I even tried applying for a few jobs at a tesla store (I admire the company) basically a retail position that pays maybe 30-40k. No dice.
When you've been working in 1 type of company for as long as I have I think you get pigeonholed. I've tried reframing my resume in terms of skills/accomplishments rather than specifics too.
Thanks for all the advice. I've learned a lot!
This is tough - I'm finding that too.
Can you pick up new skills or a transfer at work? In my (limited) experience, the best way to get into something new is with someone you know.
Your current company knows your skills, so you have a shot there.
If you have any former coworkers, that's a positive too. That's how I've gotten my last two jobs - by people who have worked with me and know my skills.
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Please stop bashing the wife already. OP has said 2x that she recommended he find another job. He doesn't want a job, he doesn't really want to be a SAHD either, but would rather do that than go back to work.
This isn't a young couple just getting started, (except for the baby) they have lived comfortably, and made decisions together that got them to this point. Not sure how long they have been together, but they are adults who should be able to communicate.
OP can't expect for this to change on a dime, and the timing is definitely not good.
Give it a year, find another job, make a plan (that includes something for her) Run the numbers and figure out what the number is for you both to stop working.
It's possible the reason she blew up when you mentioned quitting your job, is because she wants to stay home with the baby, and she needs you to be the provider.
I actually do like being a SAHD and it occupies most of my day. Here's a typical day in the life for me:
4am: change diaper and give baby to my wife for feeding
8am: wake up and make breakfast while my wife nurses
930: take my son out for a walk and go to park
1030: come home and do "tummy time" with my son.
1130-1: nap time. Read paper and eat lunch
1-2: take son out for errands with my wife
2-3: feeding then reading to my son
3-5: nap time again. Sometimes we will try to take a nap, sometimes ill read a book or personal finance blogs
5-6: have friends it family visit (happens a lot). Sometimes my wife likes to go to a local happy hour with $1 oysters
6-730: wife nurses while I make dinner.
730-8: help my wife give son a bath, change him, get him ready for bed
8-9: hold him, sing to him, try to get him to go to bed
9-10 or 11: read book, look for jobs or read internet while my wife watches tv. Sometimes watch a movie on netflix together
10ish go to sleep
So I don't really get this idea of needing to "work" to have a "purpose" or "something to do".
Another bit of good news is that I looked again at the numbers from mint to see how much we spent since we've both been off.The spending I posted before was an average of the previous 12 months with the nanny added in (she hasn't started yet).
Even wjth the COBRA premium of 1200/month, monthly spending was about 6k. That also includes about 2k worth of spending on various medical expenses that I hope to get reimbursed for from my hsa. Still very far from mustachian but it includes our expensive housing situation and living in NYC in general. Anyway, it made me feel a little better.
In addition my wife has being into doing various "hustles" to make money here and there. She signs up for focus groups, and flips baby stuff she buys on eBay for a profit. I'd estimate she averages about 3-400/month. Not much but I like the way she's thinking.
Caring for a child/family is plenty of purpose.
I was thinking though about your wife, and an earlier post you made about convincing her that it's okay for you to quit.
I wonder how much of this is tied to historical societal expectations?
I'm going to make a huge generalization here, but for the most part - my liberal/ Democratic friends are all about equality. They want women to be paid the same for doing the same job. They want equal (and better) benefits. They are fine with SAHDs, they'd like maternity AND paternity leave to be offered (I live in CA, many of the men I know take paternity leave and collect CA PFL). It doesn't matter who makes more money.
Most of the more conservative people I know still strongly support more traditional roles. "The man has to be a MAN, he has to support his FAMILY, he will suffer from poor image if he's not WORKING, and that's what you DO." And still, there's a lot of society that agrees with that. Do you think your wife may be feeling that? I mean, it's okay for a man to be a SAHD in some circles, or to not work, if he's inherited money or become fabulously wealthy on his own. But otherwise? Not so much.
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Please stop bashing the wife already. OP has said 2x that she recommended he find another job. He doesn't want a job, he doesn't really want to be a SAHD either, but would rather do that than go back to work.
This isn't a young couple just getting started, (except for the baby) they have lived comfortably, and made decisions together that got them to this point. Not sure how long they have been together, but they are adults who should be able to communicate.
OP can't expect for this to change on a dime, and the timing is definitely not good.
Give it a year, find another job, make a plan (that includes something for her) Run the numbers and figure out what the number is for you both to stop working.
It's possible the reason she blew up when you mentioned quitting your job, is because she wants to stay home with the baby, and she needs you to be the provider.
I actually do like being a SAHD and it occupies most of my day. Here's a typical day in the life for me:
4am: change diaper and give baby to my wife for feeding
8am: wake up and make breakfast while my wife nurses
930: take my son out for a walk and go to park
1030: come home and do "tummy time" with my son.
1130-1: nap time. Read paper and eat lunch
1-2: take son out for errands with my wife
2-3: feeding then reading to my son
3-5: nap time again. Sometimes we will try to take a nap, sometimes ill read a book or personal finance blogs
5-6: have friends it family visit (happens a lot). Sometimes my wife likes to go to a local happy hour with $1 oysters
6-730: wife nurses while I make dinner.
730-8: help my wife give son a bath, change him, get him ready for bed
8-9: hold him, sing to him, try to get him to go to bed
9-10 or 11: read book, look for jobs or read internet while my wife watches tv. Sometimes watch a movie on netflix together
10ish go to sleep
So I don't really get this idea of needing to "work" to have a "purpose" or "something to do".
Another bit of good news is that I looked again at the numbers from mint to see how much we spent since we've both been off.The spending I posted before was an average of the previous 12 months with the nanny added in (she hasn't started yet).
Even wjth the COBRA premium of 1200/month, monthly spending was about 6k. That also includes about 2k worth of spending on various medical expenses that I hope to get reimbursed for from my hsa. Still very far from mustachian but it includes our expensive housing situation and living in NYC in general. Anyway, it made me feel a little better.
In addition my wife has being into doing various "hustles" to make money here and there. She signs up for focus groups, and flips baby stuff she buys on eBay for a profit. I'd estimate she averages about 3-400/month. Not much but I like the way she's thinking.
How often is the baby feeding?
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Please stop bashing the wife already. OP has said 2x that she recommended he find another job. He doesn't want a job, he doesn't really want to be a SAHD either, but would rather do that than go back to work.
This isn't a young couple just getting started, (except for the baby) they have lived comfortably, and made decisions together that got them to this point. Not sure how long they have been together, but they are adults who should be able to communicate.
OP can't expect for this to change on a dime, and the timing is definitely not good.
Give it a year, find another job, make a plan (that includes something for her) Run the numbers and figure out what the number is for you both to stop working.
It's possible the reason she blew up when you mentioned quitting your job, is because she wants to stay home with the baby, and she needs you to be the provider.
I actually do like being a SAHD and it occupies most of my day. Here's a typical day in the life for me:
4am: change diaper and give baby to my wife for feeding
8am: wake up and make breakfast while my wife nurses
930: take my son out for a walk and go to park
1030: come home and do "tummy time" with my son.
1130-1: nap time. Read paper and eat lunch
1-2: take son out for errands with my wife
2-3: feeding then reading to my son
3-5: nap time again. Sometimes we will try to take a nap, sometimes ill read a book or personal finance blogs
5-6: have friends it family visit (happens a lot). Sometimes my wife likes to go to a local happy hour with $1 oysters
6-730: wife nurses while I make dinner.
730-8: help my wife give son a bath, change him, get him ready for bed
8-9: hold him, sing to him, try to get him to go to bed
9-10 or 11: read book, look for jobs or read internet while my wife watches tv. Sometimes watch a movie on netflix together
10ish go to sleep
So I don't really get this idea of needing to "work" to have a "purpose" or "something to do".
Another bit of good news is that I looked again at the numbers from mint to see how much we spent since we've both been off.The spending I posted before was an average of the previous 12 months with the nanny added in (she hasn't started yet).
Even wjth the COBRA premium of 1200/month, monthly spending was about 6k. That also includes about 2k worth of spending on various medical expenses that I hope to get reimbursed for from my hsa. Still very far from mustachian but it includes our expensive housing situation and living in NYC in general. Anyway, it made me feel a little better.
In addition my wife has being into doing various "hustles" to make money here and there. She signs up for focus groups, and flips baby stuff she buys on eBay for a profit. I'd estimate she averages about 3-400/month. Not much but I like the way she's thinking.
How often is the baby feeding?
Around 7x - I didn't capture them all
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Yeah - My wife is liberal in most of her views but conservative in some ways. Her attitude toward the man being the provider being one of them.
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mm1970, one issue is that while (if) the child is breastfeeding it makes a lot more sense for the woman to be the one staying at home. Not all women can work at the some time as they breastfeed. For example, I have a "fake cube" (complete with door but no roof) but I'd be wildly uncomfortable about closing the door and papering up the window wall and doing it in here (not to mention I imagine it's noisy and noise really travels here), so I'd likely have to go to the room upstairs, but then I couldn't work on the computer and get anything done... So I'd have to work longer hours to make up for the time I take out to pump while at work.
Once the breastfeeding time in life is over, whether because of age or formula, it makes no difference which parent is home - except that if one parent has already been home, a switch can be difficult (logistics, finding a new job possibly etc.)
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Of course in addition there are the advantages of daycare; socialize the child, being thought by trained professionals (rather than us who have no idea what we're doing)
I hope you are not serious.
Why not? I have never raised a child before, and have no training in it (other than being one once). People at the daycare and schools have years of formal training and study, as well as years or decades of experience! Who would you say objectively is more qualified to take care of a child? I could put the kid down the wrong way and kill it without even knowing it. The fact that we let untrained amateurs be responsible for the life of a child without any requirement for education is actually quite insane. Can you imagine if we let people drive cars without any training? Or fly an airplane? hells no.
Children have been raised by completely untrained amateurs for millennia. I actually think that that someone with a moderate amount of intelligence and a whole lot of love can do better than the professionals. But YMMV.
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Don't reimburse the HSA expenses if you don't need to.
http://www.madfientist.com/ultimate-retirement-account/
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mm1970, one issue is that while (if) the child is breastfeeding it makes a lot more sense for the woman to be the one staying at home. Not all women can work at the some time as they breastfeed. For example, I have a "fake cube" (complete with door but no roof) but I'd be wildly uncomfortable about closing the door and papering up the window wall and doing it in here (not to mention I imagine it's noisy and noise really travels here), so I'd likely have to go to the room upstairs, but then I couldn't work on the computer and get anything done... So I'd have to work longer hours to make up for the time I take out to pump while at work.
Once the breastfeeding time in life is over, whether because of age or formula, it makes no difference which parent is home - except that if one parent has already been home, a switch can be difficult (logistics, finding a new job possibly etc.)
Oh totally. I've got two boys. I nursed the first for 13.5 months (and pumped at work). I stopped pumping the day before his 1st birthday and was so so happy. It was very very hard to do that. I used an office with a lock and shades, and worked while pumping, but someone did walk in on me once (the door was locked...turns out the IT guy ALSO had the key!)
My second child it was even harder - new company, I pumped in the "shower room" where they put a chair and table and ran a cord so I could work. I ended up quitting pumping at 8.5 months and weaned at 10 months. Even though I was part time the second time around, still harder.
I did not want to quit working during this time, but I think it would have been so much better/ easier if I didn't have to pump. I suffered from plugged ducts both times that tended to get better when I was on vacation or on weekends when I was nursing only. Working from home exclusively would have been best, but I don't have that kind of job.
But all families are different - maybe the husband here can stay at home and work it out. I know some women have jobs where they were close to the baby's daycare and would go over and nurse when needed.
My husband was just cleaning out a box on a shelf and I found two unopened medela bottles, some new milk storage bags, and a small cooler. SOOO happy to be donating those!!
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Don't reimburse the HSA expenses if you don't need to.
http://www.madfientist.com/ultimate-retirement-account/
I misspoke - it's an fsa not an hsa
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Lol no wonder you don't want to go to work you have a pretty awesome day! Maybe switch places with your wife for a couple of days so she can do that stay at home stuff for a bit and gain the perspective of not working but doing meaningful pursuits.
Out of curiosity, can we get details on this amazing property you own? Walk up? 2 bed Condo?pre war? Sqft purchase price and current value?
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mm1970, one issue is that while (if) the child is breastfeeding it makes a lot more sense for the woman to be the one staying at home. Not all women can work at the some time as they breastfeed. For example, I have a "fake cube" (complete with door but no roof) but I'd be wildly uncomfortable about closing the door and papering up the window wall and doing it in here (not to mention I imagine it's noisy and noise really travels here), so I'd likely have to go to the room upstairs, but then I couldn't work on the computer and get anything done... So I'd have to work longer hours to make up for the time I take out to pump while at work.
Once the breastfeeding time in life is over, whether because of age or formula, it makes no difference which parent is home - except that if one parent has already been home, a switch can be difficult (logistics, finding a new job possibly etc.)
Oh totally. I've got two boys. I nursed the first for 13.5 months (and pumped at work). I stopped pumping the day before his 1st birthday and was so so happy. It was very very hard to do that. I used an office with a lock and shades, and worked while pumping, but someone did walk in on me once (the door was locked...turns out the IT guy ALSO had the key!)
My second child it was even harder - new company, I pumped in the "shower room" where they put a chair and table and ran a cord so I could work. I ended up quitting pumping at 8.5 months and weaned at 10 months. Even though I was part time the second time around, still harder.
I did not want to quit working during this time, but I think it would have been so much better/ easier if I didn't have to pump. I suffered from plugged ducts both times that tended to get better when I was on vacation or on weekends when I was nursing only. Working from home exclusively would have been best, but I don't have that kind of job.
But all families are different - maybe the husband here can stay at home and work it out. I know some women have jobs where they were close to the baby's daycare and would go over and nurse when needed.
My husband was just cleaning out a box on a shelf and I found two unopened medela bottles, some new milk storage bags, and a small cooler. SOOO happy to be donating those!!
Yep. Can't wait to be done with pumping. A few more months.
At about 3 months postpartum, I was still randomly bursting into tears for absolutely no reason. I know for those of you who've never experienced it you won't get it, but imagine suddenly sobbing and having your brain go "WTF is happening?! Stahp!!!!" and not being able to stop for at least ten minutes. You don't know why you're crying, you know it's completely insane, and you can't stop. Your brain still feels rational, but freaked out by the sudden hostile takeover from your hormones. It is the weirdest thing I've ever experienced. I even spent 45 minutes sobbing my heart out one day because, one day in the future, someone would make fun of my daughter. The idea that, at any point, someone would see my beautiful, perfect child and dare to tell her that she was less than beautiful and perfect made me cry like someone had just died for 45 freaking minutes. That is what pregnancy and post-pregnancy hormones can do. Was it crazy? Yep. Did I realize it at the time? Absolutely. Could I do anything to control myself? Nope. And believe me, I tried.
I can understand the wife's freaking out about Dad (OP) staying home, especially if it was in the back of her mind that she wanted to stay home. It might not be "Dad has to be the provider" but simply that someone needs to provide for the family and she wanted to be the one who stays home. Especially since OP makes so much more money, and with her need for financial security, that could have been a big part of the initial freak-out. For me and my husband, it was our plan from the beginning that my husband would go to school full time and the rest of the time be SAHD. Even so, when I went back to work I seriously resented this arrangement and struggled not to be pissed off at him all the time. And that was with prior planning!
OP, I agree with the people who've said that you should emphasize all the money saving stuff you do/will do as things you're doing for your kid. Honestly, having her see you being such a good dad and willing to make "sacrifices" (even if you don't really think they're sacrifices) will bond her with you even more.
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mm1970, one issue is that while (if) the child is breastfeeding it makes a lot more sense for the woman to be the one staying at home. Not all women can work at the some time as they breastfeed. For example, I have a "fake cube" (complete with door but no roof) but I'd be wildly uncomfortable about closing the door and papering up the window wall and doing it in here (not to mention I imagine it's noisy and noise really travels here), so I'd likely have to go to the room upstairs, but then I couldn't work on the computer and get anything done... So I'd have to work longer hours to make up for the time I take out to pump while at work.
Once the breastfeeding time in life is over, whether because of age or formula, it makes no difference which parent is home - except that if one parent has already been home, a switch can be difficult (logistics, finding a new job possibly etc.)
Oh totally. I've got two boys. I nursed the first for 13.5 months (and pumped at work). I stopped pumping the day before his 1st birthday and was so so happy. It was very very hard to do that. I used an office with a lock and shades, and worked while pumping, but someone did walk in on me once (the door was locked...turns out the IT guy ALSO had the key!)
My second child it was even harder - new company, I pumped in the "shower room" where they put a chair and table and ran a cord so I could work. I ended up quitting pumping at 8.5 months and weaned at 10 months. Even though I was part time the second time around, still harder.
I did not want to quit working during this time, but I think it would have been so much better/ easier if I didn't have to pump. I suffered from plugged ducts both times that tended to get better when I was on vacation or on weekends when I was nursing only. Working from home exclusively would have been best, but I don't have that kind of job.
But all families are different - maybe the husband here can stay at home and work it out. I know some women have jobs where they were close to the baby's daycare and would go over and nurse when needed.
My husband was just cleaning out a box on a shelf and I found two unopened medela bottles, some new milk storage bags, and a small cooler. SOOO happy to be donating those!!
Absolutely. And that's one great option for me here (assuming I could actually get one of the very limited spots in the daycare here at my office that almost requires you to sign up a year before a kid is born...). Although in that case of course, no one is staying at home making the question moot!
Families vary a lot, and I'm very much against making exceptions for women, but I recognize that some things do create a tendancy for one gender or the other to do them. When I have something I need down from a high shelf, my husband gets it for me (he doesn't like me teetering on chairs) and when there's something pretty heavy to be lifted, he gets it. But we both lifted and huffed stuff for our recent move and I'm constantly after him to at least cook with me (I hate the term "help" me cook which implies it's my responsibility), even if he won't ever make more than a frozen pizza or salad for dinner for us. Anyhow, gender equality is a bit of digression so I'll end it here.
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You might try using some of the "Question behind the question" techniques to drill down deeper with her and get to what the core issues are, rather than continuing to slip around on the surface:
Great advice!
I think much could be gained by listening to the wife's thoughts, dreams, goals, ideas, and the thinking behind them. It's pretty common, in my experience, that when a little digging is done, you find out that what the person wants is completely different than what they think or say they want, or at least you get a better perspective of their ideas.
Example: "I want our children to go to private school."
Okay. Why?
"Because they get a better education that way."
When you say "better education," what exactly do you mean? Like, better grades, or individualized attention, or something else?
"Mostly teachers that are less test-focused, and provide enriching opportunities beyond core standards and working to the lowest common denominator. Plus safety -- public schools here are too dangerous, no one can learn when they're worried about getting stabbed."
Yeah, those are great goals, I agree. I'd like those things for our kids too. So, we agree on what we want, now we have to figure out how to do it. I will add, I also would like to get those things at the best price we can. Do you agree that it would be a worthwhile goal to seek those things, and also try to find the best value we can, ensuring always that we are not sacrificing those goals in the name of price?
"Sure. As long as we're not sacrificing quality for the sake of saving a buck."
Sounds good. Then spit-balling, we could look for the private schools with the best value, and also look to see if there are any public schools that can meet those same goals. Or any other ideas we might not have even considered yet.
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You might try using some of the "Question behind the question" techniques to drill down deeper with her and get to what the core issues are, rather than continuing to slip around on the surface:
Great advice!
I think much could be gained by listening to the wife's thoughts, dreams, goals, ideas, and the thinking behind them. It's pretty common, in my experience, that when a little digging is done, you find out that what the person wants is completely different than what they think or say they want, or at least you get a better perspective of their ideas.
Example: "I want our children to go to private school."
Okay. Why?
"Because they get a better education that way."
When you say "better education," what exactly do you mean? Like, better grades, or individualized attention, or something else?
"Mostly teachers that are less test-focused, and provide enriching opportunities beyond core standards and working to the lowest common denominator. Plus safety -- public schools here are too dangerous, no one can learn when they're worried about getting stabbed."
Yeah, those are great goals, I agree. I'd like those things for our kids too. So, we agree on what we want, now we have to figure out how to do it. I will add, I also would like to get those things at the best price we can. Do you agree that it would be a worthwhile goal to seek those things, and also try to find the best value we can, ensuring always that we are not sacrificing those goals in the name of price?
"Sure. As long as we're not sacrificing quality for the sake of saving a buck."
Sounds good. Then spit-balling, we could look for the private schools with the best value, and also look to see if there are any public schools that can meet those same goals. Or any other ideas we might not have even considered yet.
Yep it's an excellent suggestion. Already helped me learn that an alternate solution from my wife's perspective is to live abroad and have our son attend public school there. I also learned that it's only important to her from k-6. For the rest of his education it can be public (including college)
Of course, living abroad without having a full time job will likely be very difficult due to visa issues.
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We lived in UK last year. Hands down the schooling was 100% better. I feel like I have a kindred spirit with your wife haha. Don't shoot me posters! We had a baby in NYC last year and went through some similar awakenings. She'll come around for sure- just takes some time to break the manhattan fast paced life.
Also, three months, he's still kinda boring and tedious. Give it two more and loads happens which will definitely lighten the mood.
Most Visas are ok with unemployment as long as you provide your statements that show you are self reliant. (They usually have a number requirement for this, but I think you would meet it.)
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Lol no wonder you don't want to go to work you have a pretty awesome day! Maybe switch places with your wife for a couple of days so she can do that stay at home stuff for a bit and gain the perspective of not working but doing meaningful pursuits.
Out of curiosity, can we get details on this amazing property you own? Walk up? 2 bed Condo?pre war? Sqft purchase price and current value?
Ha- it's not that amazing. In most parts of the country it would probably be worth 300k. I guess that's one benefit of living in manhattan -everything costs so much that you could maintain the same standard of living for a for half the price elsewhere.
Anyway it's a 2 bedroom about 1100 sq ft, elevator building. Purchased for 1.2 with a current value of around 1.6.
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Re. Australia being an option, you'll want to have a look at COL there. In what part of the country does her family live? Salaries can be higher than in the US but COL keeps up with it - in major cities like Sydney/Melbourne it can get close to NYC. Also, public schools there have plenty of problems too - moving home base isn't a solution to fundamental relationship dissonance.
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Of course, living abroad without having a full time job will likely be very difficult due to visa issues.
This probably isn't exotic enough to count as "abroad", but you could probably live "temporarily" in Canada very easily without a visa or a job. You'd just have to drive to the border, and maybe visit "home" in the US for a bit every six months. I think this is how most snowbird do it in reverse (Canadians who live "temporarily" in Florida, etc.). I presume you could probably do something similar in Mexico, or other central and maybe South American countries.
As an aside, if visa issues are the concern, why necessarily live abroad? The US itself is a broad and varied country.
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Re. Australia being an option, you'll want to have a look at COL there. In what part of the country does her family live? Salaries can be higher than in the US but COL keeps up with it - in major cities like Sydney/Melbourne it can get close to NYC. Also, public schools there have plenty of problems too - moving home base isn't a solution to fundamental relationship dissonance.
Yes, I wouldn't assume COL to be lower in Australia. Sydney and Melbourne are in the top ten most expensive cities in the world. Note that no US cities are on the list.
1. Singapore
2. Paris
3. Oslo
4. Zurich
5. Sydney
6. Melbourne
6. Geneva
6. Caracas
6. Tokyo
10. Copenhagen
Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-05/sydney-and-melbourne-among-worlds-most-expensive-cities/5298818
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In terms of monthly spending:
2k nanny
1k travel
2k apt maintenance
100: homeowners
1k food
800: garage, car, gas, insurance, metro cards
100: cable and internet
50: wife's gym
200: other personal care (nails, massage,hair)
160: cell phones
80: dry cleaning
100: baby stuff
200: club fees
400: cleaning person
250: storage
A blind monkey could easily cut this in half but whenever I've tried to reign in any of these items it sparks resistance. Of the things I have direct control over, I could maybe cut 200-300/month without her caring.
Oh dear! I haven't read through all the posts. But here is my opinion, FWIW. If my husband had made an offer like you have (about wanting to move to a place less expensive with your net worth), I would have immediately taken him up on the offer. Why continue to live in an expensive area of the country (with your net worth) in order to hire a nanny, pay $2k for home maintenance, $400 for a cleaning person, $200 for hair, nails, etc., $200 in club fees, $1,000 for travel, etc. on a monthly basis?? These just smack of status, do they not???
You and your wife are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm not sure about it being hormonal from having a child or not? We can think pretty clearly after giving birth. :)
I think you might need to look at areas or cities here in the U.S. that have a European feel to them. Even then, I think you could spend a lot less than $500K for a home. And run some numbers. Maybe if your wife sees some numbers (and provide lots of options), she may warm up to the idea. Maybe your wife would be willing to stay home and raise your child? Since she has background in education, I don't know if she would be willing to stay home and educate your child? That would cut down on expenses even further and allow for travel as you wouldn't be tied into following a school year schedule.
There has to be a happy medium somewhere along the line. If resistance is still being felt, it may be wise to seek out a neutral third party, i.e., marriage counselor. That lifestyle and status is a hard thing to give up once you've been there. But in the long run, it just gets too hard to maintain appearances.
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In terms of monthly spending:
2k nanny
1k travel
2k apt maintenance
100: homeowners
1k food
800: garage, car, gas, insurance, metro cards
100: cable and internet
50: wife's gym
200: other personal care (nails, massage,hair)
160: cell phones
80: dry cleaning
100: baby stuff
200: club fees
400: cleaning person
250: storage
A blind monkey could easily cut this in half but whenever I've tried to reign in any of these items it sparks resistance. Of the things I have direct control over, I could maybe cut 200-300/month without her caring.
Oh dear! I haven't read through all the posts. But here is my opinion, FWIW. If my husband had made an offer like you have (about wanting to move to a place less expensive with your net worth), I would have immediately taken him up on the offer. Why continue to live in an expensive area of the country (with your net worth) in order to hire a nanny, pay $2k for home maintenance, $400 for a cleaning person, $200 for hair, nails, etc., $200 in club fees, $1,000 for travel, etc. on a monthly basis?? These just smack of status, do they not???
You and your wife are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm not sure about it being hormonal from having a child or not? We can think pretty clearly after giving birth. :)
I think you might need to look at areas or cities here in the U.S. that have a European feel to them. Even then, I think you could spend a lot less than $500K for a home. And run some numbers. Maybe if your wife sees some numbers (and provide lots of options), she may warm up to the idea. Maybe your wife would be willing to stay home and raise your child? Since she has background in education, I don't know if she would be willing to stay home and educate your child? That would cut down on expenses even further and allow for travel as you wouldn't be tied into following a school year schedule.
There has to be a happy medium somewhere along the line. If resistance is still being felt, it may be wise to seek out a neutral third party, i.e., marriage counselor. That lifestyle and status is a hard thing to give up once you've been there. But in the long run, it just gets too hard to maintain appearances.
Yep it seems pretty obvious to me. As I said, a blind monkey could cut our spending in half. She's not really at the point of taking a look at spreadsheets. Anything that smacks of cutting costs will be summarily dismissed. But I've learned a lot from this thread in terms of techniques, perspectives and timing. To recap, the advice that resonate with me is:
-take a break from this topic for a while-maybe a year. Timing with a newborn wasn't great. Also, too big a change all at once
-ask more questions to try and uncover her true motivations
-try to think of ways that she can benefit from this-consider the batna technique
-consider moving abroad but beware of cola
-try to make smaller adjustments for now like: finding a job in a lower cost area, packing my lunch every day, etc.
-if private school is non negotiable all bets are off- will need to save atleast another 300k
To answer your question about home schooling she is vehemently opposed due to socialization issues. She finds home schooling very odd.
Fundamentally, she has more to lose than I do by giving up our lifestyle. I'm at the point where I'd give up a lot to never have to see my office again
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Maybe use the year to plan and to really put together some good solid numbers. Is your wife adamant about living in another country? If so, what is the primary purpose for this? Is it for status, or something else?
From your posts--I keep seeing items that continually revolve around status, including private education. Not that I'm opposed to private education, but if it is somehow a status issue, then I think that's the wrong reason.
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Maybe use the year to plan and to really put together some good solid numbers. Is your wife adamant about living in another country? If so, what is the primary purpose for this? Is it for status, or something else?
From your posts--I keep seeing items that continually revolve around status, including private education. Not that I'm opposed to private education, but if it is somehow a status issue, then I think that's the wrong reason.
She objects to the common core and no child left behind mandates. A few posters here actually agreed with her viewpoint. She's ok with public education in the Uk and Australia.
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Maybe use the year to plan and to really put together some good solid numbers. Is your wife adamant about living in another country? If so, what is the primary purpose for this? Is it for status, or something else?
From your posts--I keep seeing items that continually revolve around status, including private education. Not that I'm opposed to private education, but if it is somehow a status issue, then I think that's the wrong reason.
She objects to the common core and no child left behind mandates. A few posters here actually agreed with her viewpoint. She's ok with public education in the Uk and Australia.
Got it. Yep, you can't get away from NCLB. However, there are states that have not implemented Common Core.
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I haven't read all the replies, just the first two pages, but to me, the strategic thing to do would be to job hunt hard in the Boston area, find a great job there, and make that move. You'd realize the equity from your condo and get yourself out of that and NYC, AND have the chance to scale back your next home purchase. That would get you a lot closer to what you want and what she seems to be OK with.
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I haven't read all the replies, just the first two pages, but to me, the strategic thing to do would be to job hunt hard in the Boston area, find a great job there, and make that move. You'd realize the equity from your condo and get yourself out of that and NYC, AND have the chance to scale back your next home purchase. That would get you a lot closer to what you want and what she seems to be OK with.
Yes that seems to be the most realistic option / best overall solution all things considered. I found some houses in the 500k range in the Boston area that she seemed to like. The key will be to ease into the ER thing gradually
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I was freaked out about homeschooling as well. But we tried public, private and abroad.
Socialization can be a concern (it was for me) but in reality kids have very little time in school to socialize. That happens before and after school. I completely understand Private in NYC. Public in nyc is terrible. Private offers a lot that unschooling does in terms of individualized learning. That's the premium.
We've just found that with the 30k per year, and my kids at home we can travel more, and do more than sit in a classroom 30 hours a week. Plus the curriculum is taught to the lowest common demonenator. My kids can learn faster at their own pace.
Again, it's just having been there. I for sure thought my kids would be in school, until problems happened and a lot of education on unschooling (a bit like Mrs MM's).
As for socialization it's a matter of finding other families that are on the same schedule. Lucky for us, the trend is going up and we have met many (normal happy) friends and kids that opted out of the system.
I know of a few families in BK that pay one teacher for six kids to have a pseudo school arrangement. The families are really close and the kids have more one on one.
A lot of private school families hire 'guides' to help the kods pursue their interests.
There's a whole world of options out there in education. Again, it's another 180 from expectations :)
Glad you were able to sort through this a bit on here. Looks like you have a solid plan in moving forward!
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As far as "status" as a motivation, I'm not seeing that. She truly believes that public schools in this country are hamstrung due to some of the federal mandates in place. She's very against all the emphasis on testing. I see her point, but I think what you do at home is more important. Since she had her masters in education it's hard to argue with her on this subject - she's the expert.
I completely agree with your wife about what is going on in education. I'm a public school teacher who has her kids in private school, which I never thought would happen. I believed so much in our public school system. But things have changed, dramatically for the worse, I'm sorry to say. It's an entirely different world from when I started teaching nearly twenty years ago. Most people don't understand this at all, and don't know what it's really like in public school, and also don't know much about child development. They think choosing private school for your kids is being hoity-toity or because you care about status. I understand your wife's views in this area, especially as you mentioned that she's open to public school when your child (children) is older. That tells me that her concerns are like mine; they have to do with the human development aspect more than what people usually think of a reason for private school-- connections and status. She has a knowledge base that most don't, and she wants what is best for your child as a human being, not because it's the in-thing to do.
It seems to me that the smart solution to this problem is to home-school. She can do it, as an educator, and it solves the problem of paying for a nanny plus the other two-working-parent expenses. But then I read that she's not into that idea. I have two thoughts on that matter. One, is that she might change her mind as your little on grows. 3 months is entirely different than 3 years. You don't have to be hippy-dippy, off-the-grid, crunchy granola to homeschool. She'll probably see that, eventually.
But, you can't plan for her to change her mind. And it doesn't really solve your problem of hating your job anyway. So my other thought is that it makes sense to me that the overseas idea is the best to plan for right now. That eliminates the need for private school, and possibly a nanny as she might be willing to not work in a different situation. I know the cost of living is a concern, but there are some things you wouldn't have to worry about there that you do here. The schooling, for one, and the health care. Transportation might go down as well.
I'm glad to hear she's coming around to the idea of change. I was sad to see people being so mean about your wife. No one is at their best at three months postpartum, no one. Good luck, RJG.
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Private school will also be cheaper in a lower COL area. In San Diego you could find several different educational philosophies to choose from for about $10-$15k/yr. If you are otherwise FIRE, a part-time job could pay that expense. You might also see if there are places with very interesting charter schools, some of which will not be following Common Core.
I don't think you can count on investing her $750k nest egg into the stock market to support a 4% SWR. It feels too risky to her. You might instead talk about how instead of having $1.4M tied up in one house, in another area that money could be used for both your house and some rentals which generate enough income to pay for private school.
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Private school will also be cheaper in a lower COL area. In San Diego you could find several different educational philosophies to choose from for about $10-$15k/yr. If you are otherwise FIRE, a part-time job could pay that expense. You might also see if there are places with very interesting charter schools, some of which will not be following Common Core.
I don't think you can count on investing her $750k nest egg into the stock market to support a 4% SWR. It feels too risky to her. You might instead talk about how instead of having $1.4M tied up in one house, in another area that money could be used for both your house and some rentals which generate enough income to pay for private school.
10-15/year sounds like a great deal. What types of schools?
I agree that her 750k is unlikely to be part of the swr calc. I could maybe see her agreeing to use that money to buy a nice house in lower col area and then living off the swr from my money. That would be about 5k/month. I also had forgotten about the fact that she gets 1k/month from a small trust fund. That could pay for part of a private school potentially.
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Private school will also be cheaper in a lower COL area. In San Diego you could find several different educational philosophies to choose from for about $10-$15k/yr. If you are otherwise FIRE, a part-time job could pay that expense. You might also see if there are places with very interesting charter schools, some of which will not be following Common Core.
I don't think you can count on investing her $750k nest egg into the stock market to support a 4% SWR. It feels too risky to her. You might instead talk about how instead of having $1.4M tied up in one house, in another area that money could be used for both your house and some rentals which generate enough income to pay for private school.
10-15/year sounds like a great deal. What types of schools?
I agree that her 750k is unlikely to be part of the swr calc. I could maybe see her agreeing to use that money to buy a nice house in lower col area and then living off the swr from my money. That would be about 5k/month. I also had forgotten about the fact that she gets 1k/month from a small trust fund. That could pay for part of a private school potentially.
In San Jose there are catholic schools a little less than that, the non-religious one a little more. I plan for my daughter to go to private school, and we are planning a Catholic one.
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The private school my kids are at are in that price range. Actually on the lower end. The school has an emergent curriculum for the preschool. It's all about the kids' interests and building units of study around them. They very much believe in learning through play, and they work a lot on community building and teaching kids to get along, to communicate, to deal with their feelings. It's lovely. In the grade school, there is of course more of a focus on academics but it's still very student-centered and project-based rather than worksheets and kill and drill, and there's no standardized testing. The kids don't get grades. We get narratives written by their teachers about what they've studied and what they've struggled with and how they've grown. It's an educational philosophy that is about the development of each individual child rather than about meeting arbitrarily-set standards and having enough kids pass tests that they don't get punished by the government.
Based on what you've said about your wife's feelings about the current state of public education and what she wants to avoid for your child, this is more the type of school she would be happy with. Something like where my kids are, or a Montessori school (it's not only preschool), probably more so than a Catholic school that is usually more traditional would be more up your alley. All the comparable schools around here are in that price range. NYC price seem crazy.
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I have my master's in education, I teach at a private school... and when I have kids I fully plan to send them to public school. So people of equal training as your wife come to different conclusions. Granted, when my boyfriend brings up the possibility of private school, I'm like, "NOPE this is my field of expertise, we are not doing that." So I also use my credentials to get what I want in that conversation :) (In seriousness, it's something we will talk about in more depth and with more research if we actually have kids, it's a very theoretical conversation right now).
I saw the book "Crucial Conversations" mentioned in another thread. I haven't read it, but I looked through the preview and it seems like it's something that you (and me, and most people) could really benefit from. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071771328/ref=s9_simh_gw_p14_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0E8G0GEEF1JG45CQV997&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1688200382&pf_rd_i=507846
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One other thing, and pardon me if I missed it somewhere in this long thread, but it seems like your main motivation for FI is that you hate your job and it's dawned on you that maybe you don't have to do it. I haven't gotten the sense that your motivations might be something like: having a child has made you realize you want to re-prioritize; you're realizing you live a materialistic life that not fundamentally satisfying; the go-go-go workaholism is driving a wedge between you and the person you cherish most in your life. I don't know if any of these things are true, you haven't so much as hinted at them. Your motivation for FI seems to be about you, rather than your family, and I have to wonder if this is something your wife is reacting to.
I have to assume FI was not a priority for you when you were considering such things as living in NYC, working in a high-paying, high pressure industry, and having a family. That's fine, things change, but you should be clear about your motivations. If you had a job you loved, would you still want to stay at home? What's the vision for your family that FI provides?
Right now it seems like you have a pretty defeatist attitude about getting to FI because it would take a long time and would be hard. Well, duh, as are most things in life that are worth doing are hard. You have to ask yourself if the hard work is worth it to you. You have to be very clear about your goals, and why they benefit not just you but your whole family.
You seem focused on the short term, and your wife seem focused on maintaining. Neither attitude is conducive to building wealth.
Even though I find it a little obnoxious to read, the book "The Millionaire Next Door" discusses the attitudes and habits of people who build wealth (check it out from the library, definitely not worthy buying). Maintaining a high income is a stressful way to be "wealthy." Building wealth and investing is, in the long run, much more secure.
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I have my master's in education, I teach at a private school... and when I have kids I fully plan to send them to public school.
Can we hear more about this, please? i.e., What factors sell you on public school for your kids? (Full disclosure: Public school sucked for my son, and private school is too expensive for us, so we homeschool/unschool with some funding from government for community classes, etc.)
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Right now it seems like you have a pretty defeatist attitude about getting to FI because it would take a long time and would be hard. Well, duh, as are most things in life that are worth doing are hard. You have to ask yourself if the hard work is worth it to you. You have to be very clear about your goals, and why they benefit not just you but your whole family.
"Of course it's hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard is what makes it great."
Couldn't help it, you just made me think of that quote. (From "A League of Their Own", for those who haven't seen it/don't remember that part.)
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Another thing to root out, when the times comes, is what she needs in a city in order to consider living there. Her list of acceptable choices seems pretty short, and I wonder if that's no based on some misconceptions. A city like San Diego, for example, has lots of culture and plenty of big city amenities and opportunities. For most people, the notion that it would be somewhere to consider when COL is a factor is insane, but coming from NYC, it certainly would be a step up (or really a step down, I guess!) WRT living costs.
So what does she need in a city? Lots of culture? Major airport? Close to (or far from!) family? Liberal mindset? Great public transportation (and if so, would that change if the driving were better, easier, cheaper than NYC?)? Great restaurants? What is it about NYC and Boston that she loves and that makes those cities acceptable? Once you know that, you can do some research on your own to see if there are other cities that meet her needs but that cost less. San Diego, Denver, Seattle, Atlanta?
When the time comes or if the subject comes up naturally, these are things to think about. Get a list of her non-negotiables and then see if there aren't other cities that meet those needs.
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In terms of monthly spending:
2k nanny
1k travel
2k apt maintenance
100: homeowners
1k food
800: garage, car, gas, insurance, metro cards
100: cable and internet
50: wife's gym
200: other personal care (nails, massage,hair)
160: cell phones
80: dry cleaning
100: baby stuff
200: club fees
400: cleaning person
250: storage
A blind monkey could easily cut this in half but whenever I've tried to reign in any of these items it sparks resistance. Of the things I have direct control over, I could maybe cut 200-300/month without her caring.
Oh dear! I haven't read through all the posts. But here is my opinion, FWIW. If my husband had made an offer like you have (about wanting to move to a place less expensive with your net worth), I would have immediately taken him up on the offer. Why continue to live in an expensive area of the country (with your net worth) in order to hire a nanny, pay $2k for home maintenance, $400 for a cleaning person, $200 for hair, nails, etc., $200 in club fees, $1,000 for travel, etc. on a monthly basis?? These just smack of status, do they not???
You and your wife are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm not sure about it being hormonal from having a child or not? We can think pretty clearly after giving birth. :)
I think you might need to look at areas or cities here in the U.S. that have a European feel to them. Even then, I think you could spend a lot less than $500K for a home. And run some numbers. Maybe if your wife sees some numbers (and provide lots of options), she may warm up to the idea. Maybe your wife would be willing to stay home and raise your child? Since she has background in education, I don't know if she would be willing to stay home and educate your child? That would cut down on expenses even further and allow for travel as you wouldn't be tied into following a school year schedule.
There has to be a happy medium somewhere along the line. If resistance is still being felt, it may be wise to seek out a neutral third party, i.e., marriage counselor. That lifestyle and status is a hard thing to give up once you've been there. But in the long run, it just gets too hard to maintain appearances.
Also when she says she wants to live in Europe, does that mean living in the "alpha" cities (i.e. London, Paris, Munich, Rome, etc.) or just anywhere in Europe? I'd look into some of the lesser cities which may be a somewhat cheaper:
Budapest
Barcelona
Bordeaux
Firenze
Amsterdam
Lugano
Bratislava
Munich
Vienna
Prague
Most cities (except the largest ones) in Europe are likely cheaper than NYC.
All of the cities listed above have a cheaper cost of living than NYC, according to www.numbeo.com.. I've not been to all of them so I can't comment further.
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In terms of monthly spending:
2k nanny
1k travel
2k apt maintenance
100: homeowners
1k food
800: garage, car, gas, insurance, metro cards
100: cable and internet
50: wife's gym
200: other personal care (nails, massage,hair)
160: cell phones
80: dry cleaning
100: baby stuff
200: club fees
400: cleaning person
250: storage
A blind monkey could easily cut this in half but whenever I've tried to reign in any of these items it sparks resistance. Of the things I have direct control over, I could maybe cut 200-300/month without her caring.
Oh dear! I haven't read through all the posts. But here is my opinion, FWIW. If my husband had made an offer like you have (about wanting to move to a place less expensive with your net worth), I would have immediately taken him up on the offer. Why continue to live in an expensive area of the country (with your net worth) in order to hire a nanny, pay $2k for home maintenance, $400 for a cleaning person, $200 for hair, nails, etc., $200 in club fees, $1,000 for travel, etc. on a monthly basis?? These just smack of status, do they not???
You and your wife are on opposite ends of the spectrum. I'm not sure about it being hormonal from having a child or not? We can think pretty clearly after giving birth. :)
I think you might need to look at areas or cities here in the U.S. that have a European feel to them. Even then, I think you could spend a lot less than $500K for a home. And run some numbers. Maybe if your wife sees some numbers (and provide lots of options), she may warm up to the idea. Maybe your wife would be willing to stay home and raise your child? Since she has background in education, I don't know if she would be willing to stay home and educate your child? That would cut down on expenses even further and allow for travel as you wouldn't be tied into following a school year schedule.
There has to be a happy medium somewhere along the line. If resistance is still being felt, it may be wise to seek out a neutral third party, i.e., marriage counselor. That lifestyle and status is a hard thing to give up once you've been there. But in the long run, it just gets too hard to maintain appearances.
Also when she says she wants to live in Europe, does that mean living in the "alpha" cities (i.e. London, Paris, Munich, Rome, etc.) or just anywhere in Europe? I'd look into some of the lesser cities which may be a somewhat cheaper:
Budapest
Barcelona
Bordeaux
Firenze
Amsterdam
Lugano
Bratislava
Munich
Vienna
Prague
Most cities (except the largest ones) in Europe are likely cheaper than NYC.
All of the cities listed above have a cheaper cost of living than NYC, according to www.numbeo.com.. I've not been to all of them so I can't comment further.
I lived in Munich for a year and visited recently with her. She liked it there. Back in 2000 it was much cheaper - today I'm not so sure
Friends of her dad live in oxford and she likes that city too
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Another thing to root out, when the times comes, is what she needs in a city in order to consider living there. Her list of acceptable choices seems pretty short, and I wonder if that's no based on some misconceptions. A city like San Diego, for example, has lots of culture and plenty of big city amenities and opportunities. For most people, the notion that it would be somewhere to consider when COL is a factor is insane, but coming from NYC, it certainly would be a step up (or really a step down, I guess!) WRT living costs.
So what does she need in a city? Lots of culture? Major airport? Close to (or far from!) family? Liberal mindset? Great public transportation (and if so, would that change if the driving were better, easier, cheaper than NYC?)? Great restaurants? What is it about NYC and Boston that she loves and that makes those cities acceptable? Once you know that, you can do some research on your own to see if there are other cities that meet her needs but that cost less. San Diego, Denver, Seattle, Atlanta?
When the time comes or if the subject comes up naturally, these are things to think about. Get a list of her non-negotiables and then see if there aren't other cities that meet those needs.
Major thing for her is walkabillty and density. She likes to walk out of our apt see lots of people, places, etc. other things you mentioned are also important too though
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One other thing, and pardon me if I missed it somewhere in this long thread, but it seems like your main motivation for FI is that you hate your job and it's dawned on you that maybe you don't have to do it. I haven't gotten the sense that your motivations might be something like: having a child has made you realize you want to re-prioritize; you're realizing you live a materialistic life that not fundamentally satisfying; the go-go-go workaholism is driving a wedge between you and the person you cherish most in your life. I don't know if any of these things are true, you haven't so much as hinted at them. Your motivation for FI seems to be about you, rather than your family, and I have to wonder if this is something your wife is reacting to.
I have to assume FI was not a priority for you when you were considering such things as living in NYC, working in a high-paying, high pressure industry, and having a family. That's fine, things change, but you should be clear about your motivations. If you had a job you loved, would you still want to stay at home? What's the vision for your family that FI provides?
Right now it seems like you have a pretty defeatist attitude about getting to FI because it would take a long time and would be hard. Well, duh, as are most things in life that are worth doing are hard. You have to ask yourself if the hard work is worth it to you. You have to be very clear about your goals, and why they benefit not just you but your whole family.
You seem focused on the short term, and your wife seem focused on maintaining. Neither attitude is conducive to building wealth.
Even though I find it a little obnoxious to read, the book "The Millionaire Next Door" discusses the attitudes and habits of people who build wealth (check it out from the library, definitely not worthy buying). Maintaining a high income is a stressful way to be "wealthy." Building wealth and investing is, in the long run, much more secure.
Good questions. From my perspective, getting to FI would actually be easy...but gettting my wife on board with the changes required to do that is the hard part. I've gotten some good suggestions on ways to proceed here.
As for motivations, yes to everything you listed. But you're right that I probably focused too much on the "hate my job" aspect in that conversation. But I very much do enjoy spending time with my son at home.
As far as working hard toward a different job of career id be perfectly willing to do that if I could find something that made sense. But for the above reasons (spending time with family and reducing stress) id want it to be part time or at most 40 hours a week. In my industry, those types of jobs are pretty much non existent given the intensity and timelines.
I could try and do contract work but that's going to take a big leap of faith from my wife that I could secure those gigs on a regular basis. Or if we treat them like "gravy" that requires living a lifestyle that fits within what can be achieved through passive income. So from her perspective, it's pretty much the same thing as me "quitting my job".
I suppose I could take some sort of entry level retail job but that would provide little income, satisfaction or security while still having many downsides and costs associated with holding down a job. Not to mention the lifestyle abd/or location adjustments that would be required to make it work.
As for focusing only on the short term, I'm not sure I agree. I've worked in my current industry for 16 years and through saving, real estate and investing have amassed 1.6 million of our total net worth. Could it have been even higher? Sure- but it's still pretty good.
Regarding the thought experiment on "if I had a job I enjoyed" would I still want to retire early? That's very hard to answer. But if this dream job required lots of long hours, then no, at this point I'd want to scale back. Of course, I'd much rather be doing this "dream job" and working long hours than my current job but that's kind of obvious.
Living the "high life" in NYC and having a high stress job weren't things I sought out in particular. But I grew up in this area, friends and family are still here, majored in computer science (I was interested in it) and found my first job in this industry. It was fun in the early years - but many of the trends you read about have slowly eaten away the satisfaction. Now it's all about faster and cheaper. True, my wife met me when I still liked or didn't mind my job - but that has changed. She actually came across as less materialistic than other people I dated and I liked that about her. I don't think I realized how attached she was to NYC and the lifestyle associated with it.
Not trying to sound defeatist here, just trying to come up wjth a path that makes sense. When you're feeling tired, burned out and anxious it's not easy to think outside the box - which is what's needed here. I can continue to "buckle down" and "work hard" cause that's what I've always done - but there's little purpose on that. Comtinuing down the same road will increase my NW but without the prospect of ER what's the point. That's why I'm looking all over for different perspectives and suggestions (including here).
Right now, the most helpful advice tends to be about career/job suggestions and relationship communication. I already know that "I'm doing it wrong"
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One other thing, and pardon me if I missed it somewhere in this long thread, but it seems like your main motivation for FI is that you hate your job and it's dawned on you that maybe you don't have to do it. I haven't gotten the sense that your motivations might be something like: having a child has made you realize you want to re-prioritize; you're realizing you live a materialistic life that not fundamentally satisfying; the go-go-go workaholism is driving a wedge between you and the person you cherish most in your life. I don't know if any of these things are true, you haven't so much as hinted at them. Your motivation for FI seems to be about you, rather than your family, and I have to wonder if this is something your wife is reacting to.
I have to assume FI was not a priority for you when you were considering such things as living in NYC, working in a high-paying, high pressure industry, and having a family. That's fine, things change, but you should be clear about your motivations. If you had a job you loved, would you still want to stay at home? What's the vision for your family that FI provides?
Right now it seems like you have a pretty defeatist attitude about getting to FI because it would take a long time and would be hard. Well, duh, as are most things in life that are worth doing are hard. You have to ask yourself if the hard work is worth it to you. You have to be very clear about your goals, and why they benefit not just you but your whole family.
You seem focused on the short term, and your wife seem focused on maintaining. Neither attitude is conducive to building wealth.
Even though I find it a little obnoxious to read, the book "The Millionaire Next Door" discusses the attitudes and habits of people who build wealth (check it out from the library, definitely not worthy buying). Maintaining a high income is a stressful way to be "wealthy." Building wealth and investing is, in the long run, much more secure.
Good questions. From my perspective, getting to FI would actually be easy...but gettting my wife on board with the changes required to do that is the hard part. I've gotten some good suggestions on ways to proceed here.
As for motivations, yes to everything you listed. But you're right that I probably focused too much on the "hate my job" aspect in that conversation. But I very much do enjoy spending time with my son at home.
As far as working hard toward a different job of career id be perfectly willing to do that if I could find something that made sense. But for the above reasons (spending time with family and reducing stress) id want it to be part time or at most 40 hours a week. In my industry, those types of jobs are pretty much non existent given the intensity and timelines.
I could try and do contract work but that's going to take a big leap of faith from my wife that I could secure those gigs on a regular basis. Or if we treat them like "gravy" that requires living a lifestyle that fits within what can be achieved through passive income. So from her perspective, it's pretty much the same thing as me "quitting my job".
I suppose I could take some sort of entry level retail job but that would provide little income, satisfaction or security while still having many downsides and costs associated with holding down a job. Not to mention the lifestyle abd/or location adjustments that would be required to make it work.
As for focusing only on the short term, I'm not sure I agree. I've worked in my current industry for 16 years and through saving, real estate and investing have amassed 1.6 million of our total net worth. Could it have been even higher? Sure- but it's still pretty good.
Regarding the thought experiment on "if I had a job I enjoyed" would I still want to retire early? That's very hard to answer. But if this dream job required lots of long hours, then no, at this point I'd want to scale back. Of course, I'd much rather be doing this "dream job" and working long hours than my current job but that's kind of obvious.
Living the "high life" in NYC and having a high stress job weren't things I sought out in particular. But I grew up in this area, friends and family are still here, majored in computer science (I was interested in it) and found my first job in this industry. It was fun in the early years - but many of the trends you read about have slowly eaten away the satisfaction. Now it's all about faster and cheaper. True, my wife met me when I still liked or didn't mind my job - but that has changed. She actually came across as less materialistic than other people I dated and I liked that about her. I don't think I realized how attached she was to NYC and the lifestyle associated with it.
Not trying to sound defeatist here, just trying to come up wjth a path that makes sense. When you're feeling tired, burned out and anxious it's not easy to think outside the box - which is what's needed here. I can continue to "buckle down" and "work hard" cause that's what I've always done - but there's little purpose on that. Comtinuing down the same road will increase my NW but without the prospect of ER what's the point. That's why I'm looking all over for different perspectives and suggestions (including here).
Right now, the most helpful advice tends to be about career/job suggestions and relationship communication. I already know that "I'm doing it wrong"
Coming from a psych major and a parent (I have a 18 month old), relax. It will be quite a bit before I would expect to have any relationship communication. You are going through so much change right now, I'd give it at least 3 months before you try to communicate about your relationship.
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@rjg, I just want to reiterate that I am 100% in agreement with you and completely see where you're coming from (having experienced it to a large degree myself). You've already accumulated enough to live a very comfortable life (as in, upper middle class) without ever working another day in your life if you didn't want to. And you very much dislike your job right now. It's really tough to have earned enough to hang it up, but you can't right now with your wife's buy-in.
Anyway, hang in there, you'll work it out with her soon enough. Maybe consider this period towards your "One more year" time and an even larger stash ;-)
Here are some positives, if it helps:
1. You are FI. You can leave your job any damn day you feel like it if it becomes too much, without any negative financial impact on your family. Remind yourself of this every day you get up. Just knowing this helped me get through the time while working it out with my wife, and I had even more substantial "golden handcuffs" to give up at work.
2. Leaving work is not irreversible (I say this almost more for your wife's benefit than for yours). You can remind yourself, and her when the time is right, that you quitting your current job does not have to be a permanent decision that can never be undone. You don't need to earn another $ in your entire life, but that doesn't mean you might not choose to go back to some kind of work one day. And very likely, you will earn some $ doing something at some point. People take time off or long sabbaticals all the time, at least those that can afford it. And you can afford it (forever). Putting it this way made it easier for my wife to accept.
3. I don't know what NYC real estate will do in the future, but as time passes while you work it out with your wife, there's probably a decent chance that your net worth will go up pretty significantly. I think you said your place is worth $1.5M, which means every 1% increase = $15k. Why does this matter? Because you could probably quit, STAY in NYC for now, and leave your net worth intact. Your passive income and appreciation on the house could already rival your income from work. This argument helped my wife see some of the futility in me continuing to work at a job I no longer wanted.
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@rjg, I just want to reiterate that I am 100% in agreement with you and completely see where you're coming from (having experienced it to a large degree myself). You've already accumulated enough to live a very comfortable life (as in, upper middle class) without ever working another day in your life if you didn't want to. And you very much dislike your job right now. It's really tough to have earned enough to hang it up, but you can't right now with your wife's buy-in.
Anyway, hang in there, you'll work it out with her soon enough. Maybe consider this period towards your "One more year" time and an even larger stash ;-)
Here are some positives, if it helps:
1. You are FI. You can leave your job any damn day you feel like it if it becomes too much, without any negative financial impact on your family. Remind yourself of this every day you get up. Just knowing this helped me get through the time while working it out with my wife, and I had even more substantial "golden handcuffs" to give up at work.
2. Leaving work is not irreversible (I say this almost more for your wife's benefit than for yours). You can remind yourself, and her when the time is right, that you quitting your current job does not have to be a permanent decision that can never be undone. You don't need to earn another $ in your entire life, but that doesn't mean you might not choose to go back to some kind of work one day. And very likely, you will earn some $ doing something at some point. People take time off or long sabbaticals all the time, at least those that can afford it. And you can afford it (forever). Putting it this way made it easier for my wife to accept.
3. I don't know what NYC real estate will do in the future, but as time passes while you work it out with your wife, there's probably a decent chance that your net worth will go up pretty significantly. I think you said your place is worth $1.5M, which means every 1% increase = $15k. Why does this matter? Because you could probably quit, STAY in NYC for now, and leave your net worth intact. Your passive income and appreciation on the house could already rival your income from work. This argument helped my wife see some of the futility in me continuing to work at a job I no longer wanted.
I don't know about staying he is already FI, because excluding the value of the house, his investments are worth only $800,000. To me (and I bet to his wife), that is not enough for a middle class family, especially if she wants private school and travel. I'd say, cut back and give it five years and then I'd, personally, say maybe FI.
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RJG I also want to recognize that YOU are also dealing with a major transition and are tired and I think there's hormonal stuff that goes on with new dads, too. So be gentle to yourself, be good to yourself, and your wife, and your son. You've got the idea for FIRE, you can let it percolate for awhile, do some reading, put together some spreadsheets at your leisure. Even ones that include private school and European vacations.
I was reading these MMM posts earlier today, thought they might help you.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/22/selling-the-dream-how-to-make-your-spouse-love-frugality/
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/27/selling-the-dream-of-financial-independence-part-2/
I have my master's in education, I teach at a private school... and when I have kids I fully plan to send them to public school.
Can we hear more about this, please? i.e., What factors sell you on public school for your kids? (Full disclosure: Public school sucked for my son, and private school is too expensive for us, so we homeschool/unschool with some funding from government for community classes, etc.)
I'd be happy to talk about it but maybe not on this thread because I don't want to derail! Mostly it comes down to valuing the diversity of public school. My partner and I have a ton of resources: educational, familial, emotional, financial. Odds are any kid of ours will do fine in the public system and I believe in contributing to the public system (I know, not teaching there right now sort of belies that, but I teach at a small specialized school for kids with Aspergers so it's kind of a unique set up that fully uses both my English and Special Ed credentials). But I've spent my whole of my career working with kids who, at best, struggle in the public system, so I know there are circumstances where it's not right for some kids.
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@rjg, I just want to reiterate that I am 100% in agreement with you and completely see where you're coming from (having experienced it to a large degree myself). You've already accumulated enough to live a very comfortable life (as in, upper middle class) without ever working another day in your life if you didn't want to. And you very much dislike your job right now. It's really tough to have earned enough to hang it up, but you can't right now with your wife's buy-in.
Anyway, hang in there, you'll work it out with her soon enough. Maybe consider this period towards your "One more year" time and an even larger stash ;-)
Here are some positives, if it helps:
1. You are FI. You can leave your job any damn day you feel like it if it becomes too much, without any negative financial impact on your family. Remind yourself of this every day you get up. Just knowing this helped me get through the time while working it out with my wife, and I had even more substantial "golden handcuffs" to give up at work.
2. Leaving work is not irreversible (I say this almost more for your wife's benefit than for yours). You can remind yourself, and her when the time is right, that you quitting your current job does not have to be a permanent decision that can never be undone. You don't need to earn another $ in your entire life, but that doesn't mean you might not choose to go back to some kind of work one day. And very likely, you will earn some $ doing something at some point. People take time off or long sabbaticals all the time, at least those that can afford it. And you can afford it (forever). Putting it this way made it easier for my wife to accept.
3. I don't know what NYC real estate will do in the future, but as time passes while you work it out with your wife, there's probably a decent chance that your net worth will go up pretty significantly. I think you said your place is worth $1.5M, which means every 1% increase = $15k. Why does this matter? Because you could probably quit, STAY in NYC for now, and leave your net worth intact. Your passive income and appreciation on the house could already rival your income from work. This argument helped my wife see some of the futility in me continuing to work at a job I no longer wanted.
Thanks for the positive observations- I appreciate it.
I've thought of the real estate appreciation angle before, and while I'd be comfortable "banking on that" for a year maybe, I woukdnt want to do it long term since the real return on real estate tends to revert to 0.
Then again, if I didn't have the real estate "ball and chain" I might quit impulsively the next time I have to do a 6 month project in 3 months.
Good news though!! My wife said today that "no matter what" we could leave NYC by next April. We haven't talked about what that means yet but it's a great start.
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Duplicate
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Keep us posted! April, huh? Wow well that was quick! :)
Have you thought about showing her this thread? So much good information to sit ago over together *maybe a lite version with the stuff that resonates with you* ! If I was the wife, I think it'd make me more interested in 'where we are heading and why'.
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...valuing the diversity of public school. My partner and I have a ton of resources: educational, familial, emotional, financial. Odds are any kid of ours will do fine in the public system and I believe in contributing to the public system (I know, not teaching there right now sort of belies that, but I teach at a small specialized school for kids with Aspergers so it's kind of a unique set up that fully uses both my English and Special Ed credentials). But I've spent my whole of my career working with kids who, at best, struggle in the public system, so I know there are circumstances where it's not right for some kids.
Thanks, aeliz! That's plenty of info. And thanks for teaching kids with Aspergers (my kid is dx'd with high-functioning autism, severe nonverbal learning disability, and so on). I'll stop here to keep to the thread's primary purpose :) Thanks again!
Good news though!! My wife said today that "no matter what" we could leave NYC by next April. We haven't talked about what that means yet but it's a great start.
THAT'S phenomenal! A great shift! And so soon! Good work, rjg and rjg's dear wife!
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Keep us posted! April, huh? Wow well that was quick! :)
Have you thought about showing her this thread? So much good information to sit ago over together *maybe a lite version with the stuff that resonates with you* ! If I was the wife, I think it'd make me more interested in 'where we are heading and why'.
Think it would be overwhelming. I think my strategy will be one step at a time:
-modeling better spending habits.
-building on her budding desire to stay home and not work. Show her how much I enjoy doing the same -emphasize the positive
-try to never again talk about hating my job - emphasize what we want to move toward not away from. This will be to tough as I tend to come home stressed, angry and depressed. So even "how was your day" is a loaded question
-try to make our next move somewhere cheaper and less stressful. At that point, try to create a new budget that could fit within my passive income (but don't even mention that).
-guide her on her investment decisions when we sell our place (my only goal is to not she her dump it into a bank account or cd). Maybe suggest putting part of it in a vanguard index stock fund
-try to slowly and gently learn more about her hopes and fears.
-talk more about FI than RE
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Sadly you are very financially independent but have some mixed up priorities in the house.
IMHO, since we live a very nice life on 4K per month you could easily get by on the 10K per month your stash would provide.
For $700,000 you can buy a fabulous home in Springfield MO right on the golf course with 6 bedrooms and 6,000 sq ft. Your kids could attend private school and the town is brimming over with arts, culture and things to do. You could even find a job that your really liked. The people are super nice, crime is super low and the lifestyle fantastic. Missouri is rated tops in outdoors activities, lakes, clear mountain streams and a real family place.
Then with your extra money you could spend 3 months each year in any location of your choice.
NY City? Seriously, I can't imagine being paid enough to live there! Plus isn't your kind of work something that can be done remotely?
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This will be to tough as I tend to come home stressed, angry and depressed. So even "how was your day" is a loaded question
Beautiful, beautiful plan, rjg.
If you do continue to hate your job, please don't keep that to yourself, though. Your wife will need to know, so that you are not left suffering for a long time. I am a person who is very affected by, well, everything (for good or for bad) and will rant. That was hard for my last partner, so I understand the idea to keep pain to oneself to protect the other. However, your hating your job is a very real thing that is very really affecting you. That pain needs to be released/relieved/supported/healed somehow. Some people manage with that visualization of coming home, "hanging" all their worries/stresses on a tree or plant outside their home, then walking in. That is too fluffy for me when I'm up in arms.
If you are like me, what about one of the following options:
Say to your dear wife, "I need to talk with you for two minutes about something really true for me. When would be a good time? [...] You know now that I'm really hurting in going to this job. However, I'm very willing to go, to continue to support your dreams. So I'm going to look for ways to go to work without bringing home a lot of the pain of it. I just need you to be aware -and acknowledge- that even if I make effort to cope better, I'm still in a lot of pain under it and I'll be looking forward to when we can change this."
Or,
"You know now that I'm really hurting in going to this job. I'm very willing to go, to continue to support your dreams. So I'm going to look for ways to go to work without bringing home a lot of the pain of it. What would help me do that is [stopping for an hour of golf on the way home, you hearing me rant for 20 minutes -on a timer- when I get home, whatever].
Or,
"...[as above]...I'd like to start seeing a life/career coach."
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I have read through this thread and a lot of what you are experiencing at work I have also gone through working in IT at a corporate environment. I know your situation is different, but I wanted to outline a couple of things that helped me when I burned out:
1.) Get out of IT management. It isn't for everyone and you are losing your technical skills and making yourself less employable for the flexible lifestyle you want. It sounds like your skills are rusty, but I'm sure they will come back. Programming hasn't changed that much in the last 5 years.
2.) Look to get into consulting, it is very easy to transition to part time or do contract work where you may only work 6 months out of the year and still make great money.
3.) Once you have established yourself in consulting, try to transition to remote work. This will allow you to stay at home with your new baby and wife while cutting out all the impromptu bs meetings.
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Keep us posted! April, huh? Wow well that was quick! :)
Have you thought about showing her this thread? So much good information to sit ago over together *maybe a lite version with the stuff that resonates with you* ! If I was the wife, I think it'd make me more interested in 'where we are heading and why'.
Think it would be overwhelming. I think my strategy will be one step at a time:
-modeling better spending habits.
-building on her budding desire to stay home and not work. Show her how much I enjoy doing the same -emphasize the positive
-try to never again talk about hating my job - emphasize what we want to move toward not away from. This will be to tough as I tend to come home stressed, angry and depressed. So even "how was your day" is a loaded question
-try to make our next move somewhere cheaper and less stressful. At that point, try to create a new budget that could fit within my passive income (but don't even mention that).
-guide her on her investment decisions when we sell our place (my only goal is to not she her dump it into a bank account or cd). Maybe suggest putting part of it in a vanguard index stock fund
-try to slowly and gently learn more about her hopes and fears.
-talk more about FI than RE
I would not hide your stress from her, but I would try to get a new job.
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So one step forward one step back I guess. Today she made multiple mocking references to "my 6000/month" plan. That's how she now refers to our brief FI discussion. She wanted to "go out to a few nice places" today since she goes back to work tomorrow. We blew about 120. She kept asking me why I looked so down and I bit my tongue - just said "nothing". She then went on about how people only want to be around happy people.
At the last place we went, she was going on about how she makes a point of never discussing money with friends. Again, she referred to my "plan" in a mocking tone. Finally, I said "what do you think about having financial independence as a goal?". She responded in a very angry tone "is this about your plan again - why are you trying to upset me before i go back to work? Do you really have to bring this up?! We have to work. It sucks. Get over it". Clearly any topic that even touches on this is an emotional hot button so I changed the subject.
I am so angry, frustrated and upset with her right now. Can barely look at her.
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She responded in a very angry tone "is this about your plan again - why are you trying to upset me before i go back to work? Do you really have to bring this up?! We have to work. It sucks. Get over it".
I may be overstepping my bounds since this isn't a relationship forum, but I'm far more concerned about her and your communication issues than about getting her to accept FI as a real goal. For some reason she thinks it's okay to mock your ideas repeatedly and raise her voice to you. While part of the stress is probably coming from having a young child and having to go back to work when she doesn't want to, the two of you should probably seek counseling to learn (re-learn?) good communication skills.
I get the feeling she is stressed and doesn't know how to appropriately communicate it to you. Your coming home from work angry and depressed is probably wearing on her as well. There definitely seem to be deeper issues that you need to solve before broaching the FI topic again.
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Oh lor'. You are clearly very unhappy with your job, and your wife sounds a bit unhappy all round.
I don't know how long you've been reading MMM, but I'm a bit worried that you could be a very recent convert to the cult and have seized on the MMM notion of early retirement as the only answer to all your problems. Unfortunately, it is becoming clear that it is only the answer to one of your problems and may be creating new ones. If you have only been thinking about early retirement for the last couple of weeks, take a deep breath and peace out on any issues discussed by MMM for a while.
You are clearly stressed to the max by your current job, so I think that is your most urgent need for change. Is there anything you can do to help with that which isn't a complete cut-off from your current employment, such as reduced hours or reduced responsibility for reduced pay? If not, can you find a career coach/counsellor to talk to (something which was suggested up thread)? It could be very helpful to you to vent your frustrations about your current job to someone in a safely professional context who is not your wife. And see if they have any suggestions for sideways career moves for you - I would guess that most people seeing a career coach are looking for more money/responsibility, so you might be a novel challenge. If you can downsize your job without mentioning the "retirement" word, your wife might consider it a more acceptable interim solution than complete retirement, and it would give you both a breathing space before making any bigger decisions about moving out of NY/retiring.
Good luck.
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She responded in a very angry tone "is this about your plan again - why are you trying to upset me before i go back to work? Do you really have to bring this up?! We have to work. It sucks. Get over it".
I may be overstepping my bounds since this isn't a relationship forum, but I'm far more concerned about her and your communication issues than about getting her to accept FI as a real goal. For some reason she thinks it's okay to mock your ideas repeatedly and raise her voice to you. While part of the stress is probably coming from having a young child and having to go back to work when she doesn't want to, the two of you should probably seek counseling to learn (re-learn?) good communication skills.
I get the feeling she is stressed and doesn't know how to appropriately communicate it to you. Your coming home from work angry and depressed is probably wearing on her as well. There definitely seem to be deeper issues that you need to solve before broaching the FI topic again.
Both my husband and I were stressed at 3 month post birth and our communication sucked. At 18 month we are barely getting back to stable communication. I really think working on separate issues before FI is important too.
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I am so angry, frustrated and upset with her right now. Can barely look at her.
You've gotten good advice here and made progress but you need to go to marriage counseling asap. It sounds like these interactions will keep coming up and you need help dealing with them. Also, things get more stressful after the first child. Doesn't everyone in NY have a shrink? ;)
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Take a step back and a deep breath.
My wife called me "cheap" many times and a few times in front of her friends. Let say that I didn't appreciate and it often resulted in an argument. Now she almost never does it, she has accepted the good (financial stability and security) that comes from me being frugal ... it took about a year.
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Above and beyond any discussion of FIRE or finances, the complete lack of respect your wife displays for your feelings and ideas is shocking. You are a person, and supposedly her partner in life's journey, and are worthy of being treated as such.
She doesn't have to agree with you, but you don't have to tolerate being treated like this, post-birth hormones or not (and to qualify my statements, I am a mother of two so I've been down the road of Hormone-Soup myself). She is in dire need of sharp reminder that this relationship is a partnership, not a dictatorship.
Edit: Sorry about this, but the descriptions of you being mocked all day made me angry. If my husband repeatedly mocked me, publicly or not, my response would be "Who, precisely, the Fuck, do you think you are? And, What makes you think you can ever speak to me this way?".
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I would highly recommend at this point if your communications with each other are breaking down in this manner to either sit down and discuss the communication issues first without bringing any sort of lifestyle change into the equation or seek help. Maybe we're just getting the small disconnects but we can only see your side of these things. And any further discussion on where you two will go as a couple and partners requires a strong foundation of communication. Fix the foundation then build the house so to speak.
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It might be time to consider some counseling for both the questions about what your future looks like, and also for tips on communicating better.
Also, as great as it is that she's agreed to April, it might not be realistic if you guys can't have a decent conversation about what that means. You'll need to sell the house (unless you want to be landlords and those numbers make sense), find new jobs, and do a tone of preparation. Eight months is likely enough time to do all that, but only if you can talk about it and get started.
For me, I'd probably want a list of cities that would work for both of us, and then I'd start a job search in those cities and let that be the deciding factor for where we live. But given the tension, I'm not sure how you can have that conversation right now. Though maybe it's just the idea of cuts that is upsetting here, and not the move, in which case if the focus is largely on the city and there is only minor mention of cost of living, it's possible it could work, I guess.
It really does seem like there are plenty of cities that meet that "walk out the door and be in a city and have all that a big city offers" requirement.
Also, regarding moving to Europe, make sure you are both being realistic about it. It can be amazing in many ways, but there are plenty of frustrations, especially if you move to a non-English speaking country. It sounds incredibly romantic--I'm going to live in Europe--but the culture shock can creep up at the strangest of times and over the strangest of things, and it can be brutal. Most people I know say it took them at least a year to feel even mostly settled. I live in Stuttgart, Germany and have loved the experience, but there are some difficult aspects, too. And I'm fortunate enough to be affiliated with the military, so I can go get a taste of little America whenever I want, which makes it easier.
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It feels like you're still rushing things. The "step back and take a deep breath" advice is really sound. Maybe look toward April 2016 instead of April 2015.
And though I might get punched for this... you might consider taking a step back from MMM. You don't have debt and you have an awesome 'stache. Money's not your problem. Instead, spend your time researching places where you might want to live and jobs you might like to do. Go to glassdoor.com and check out what's available in your field, or close to your field.
Having moved with an infant, I say don't do it unless you have to... and you don't have to. Moving would be yet another HUGE transition, which brings inherent stress, which y'all already have plenty of.
You know you're not going to stay at your job indefinitely. Take some comfort from that. When you go back to work, you can say to yourself, "It's not forever. It's just for now." But you need to chill out, and stop asking your wife questions like, "What do you think about having financial independence as one of our goals?" If there's been one piece of consistent advice in this thread, it's that now is not the time to be talking about this stuff.
So back up, back off, and put your attention toward other things for the next six to nine months. Once that little guy gets a little older, your whole perspective may shift.
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Both my husband and I were stressed at 3 month post birth and our communication sucked. At 18 month we are barely getting back to stable communication. I really think working on separate issues before FI is important too.
Yeah, this. I know it's been said several times already, but you have a young infant. You are in the middle of what is notoriously the most difficult time for most marriages. Chances are, neither of you is getting enough sleep. Your wife in particular is still experiencing hormonal shifts; she is still at risk for PPD (which can manifest as anxiety, including anxiety about financial issues). No one is their best self with a three month old. I get why you are frustrated by your wife's responses, but you also need to own your part in this situation. You are proposing massive life changes at pretty much the most stressful time possible.
You need to fix the short term issues (you and your wife are not communicating well; you hate your job) before you make drastic changes. Find a marriage counselor, and maybe start looking for a different job in your current industry to take some pressure off yourself. Your ability to have this conversation productively will go up a lot when you are both getting more sleep and your family has adjusted to both parents being at work. If you can find a new job that you like a bit more, it will also make the whole thing seem less of a crisis, which will make it easier to communicate calmly.
Finally, begood is right. Moving with an infant sucks. We moved a half mile with a six month old; I would really, really not recommend it if you have any other options.
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Edit: Sorry about this, but the descriptions of you being mocked all day made me angry. If my husband repeatedly mocked me, publicly or not, my response would be "Who, precisely, the Fuck, do you think you are? And, What makes you think you can ever speak to me this way?".
yeah, that kind of talk has been ringing my bell, too. i know too many people stuck in relationships where their partners gaslight them (you want what? you're feeling what? you're crazy!) and it just blows as a way to live your life.
to me, that kind of behavior is NEVER cool. and it might be able to be excused by sleep deprivation or hormonal wackiness or anything if it were a once in a while type of thing. but from the OP's description, this sounds like a pattern that he is growing every bit as weary of as his job.
read DoubleDown's thread about how he approached his wife on this. at some point, i fear you are going to have to stand up to her and demand some respect. it's not going to be pretty, and i don't know that right now is the best time to do it, but i don't think it should wait months either, because OP is seething at this point (rightly so) and that's not going to clear up on its own.
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I want to strongly, strongly agree with Jennifer in Ottawa and the others here who are saying that figuring out a way to work on your communication in your marriage needs to be your number one priority. Mocking you is not OK, and being hormonal and stressed and sleep-deprived is NOT an excuse for treating your partner shittily. Yes, I understand that we all have bad days and end up saying something unkind, but in a healthy relationship, you'd come back the next day and say "hey, I'm really sorry I was so mean to you yesterday. I was stressed about going back to work and leaving the baby and I took it out on you. Please forgive me?" There doesn't seem to be any indication in rjg's posts that his wife thinks her behavior is wrong or unacceptable, or even that it's a new thing since having the baby. I've also noticed, rjg, that you've said multiple times in your updates that you've wanted to tell your wife something but didn't because you knew it would upset her. I hardly blame you, if her response is to mock you when you say something she doesn't like, but it's a really bad set-up for a productive relationship if you don't feel like you can talk openly to your wife about the things that are on your mind.
A lot of folks here have recommended marriage counseling. I certainly don't think it's a bad idea, but there's limited evidence that it actually increases marital satisfaction or decreases likelihood of divorce (e.g., see this Huffington Post article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/terry-gaspard-msw-licsw/marriage-counseling-does-_b_4655577.html ). I know I mentioned this pages ago in this thread, but I'd really recommend a book by John Gottman called The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, or, if you want something more substantial, maybe go to a couples workshop offered by the Gottman Institute. (And I don't know John Gottman or have any relationship to the marriage/couples counseling industry. I just really like that his techniques have been scientifically tested and have actually been shown to improve marriage satisfaction and lower divorce rates.)
But, yes, I know this is a financial forum and you didn't come to us asking for relationship advice, but I really think you're going to have a hard time finding a way to work this out with your wife without working a lot on your communication. So I second several others in saying focus first on getting that piece of your marriage working, and then sorting out the financial stuff will come far easier.
Also, my 1000% unsolicited opinion on what I would say to the wife today if I found myself in your shoes. It sounds like you're a bit more go-with-the-flow than I am (although I actually think of myself as a pretty easygoing person!), so maybe you weren't as bothered by her making fun of your desire for financial independence as I would be (honestly, it made me angry just reading about it). But just so you know that it's OK to be upset by that shit and to say so if you are, this is where I would be: "It really made me angry when you kept mocking me for wanting us to spend less money and become financially independent. I get that you don't like it, but that doesn't make it OK for you to belittle me just for wanting something different than what you want. We have different opinions on this right now, and sooner or later we're going to have to find a way to figure something out that makes both of us happy. But when you make fun of me just because I happen to want something different than what you want, that makes me feel like you don't care about my feelings or happiness at all, and it's really, really shitty to feel like your own wife doesn't care about your happiness."
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+1 to the last several posts. Also:
My (relationship) counsellor recently recommended a book to me only to help me understand my last partner's yucky behaviour. It's called No More Mr Nice Guy (Glover). I was confused about why she would recommend this to me, since I'm not my ex-boyfriend and reading about how to be a less passive or passive-aggressive guy can't really apply to me only on the level that I'm a gal. However... I picked the book up yesterday and actually find it stunningly clear, and helpful indeed in understanding what was happening. If you have a hard time standing up to and speaking directly with your wife, I would totally recommend this book.
Like ThirdTimer, I too am a little bit leery of marriage counselling. I went to about 14 appointments with my guy and noticed that while I was doing a wild amount of work, he was...not. He wouldn't read the materials, practice any of it, etc. So, I'd definitely give it a shot but if she's not showing much effort inside and outside of the first couple of appointments, I'd probably stop investing money, time, and energy in that. However, the counselling (which I continued solo after he decided he was "fine" didn't need any help thus quit) really helped me to get clear and to ultimately leave relatively painlessly, so there's that benefit, which lots of other people report too.
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Lots of great, thoughtful advice. Sorry if this thread has become more psychological than financial.
So I did confront my wife about her behavior last night and she went on a 2 hour tirade on me for ruining her last day before going back to work. Listed everything I've ever done wrong. Again threatened to leave if I don't change. I am really bad at dealing with angry people- always feel like I am completely in the wrong. So i ended up apologizing for everything.
Later that night she apologized for "flipping out" and that she "Gets it from her family" and it's not cool.
Today she had forgotten her phone and asked if I could bring it to her work. We had lunch and she was talking about how "she'd move anywhere I found a job". She also said something about "creating your own job.
So that was good I guess - although I feel whipsawed and still don't feel comfortable really talking to her. I never know how she's going to react or what will set her off. Even just telling her that might set her off. She just texted me that she is so "lucky to have me".
Regarding therapists, I've tried about 5 over the years for job and assertiveness issues. Mostly, it became an expensive way of venting. The last one I had seemed decent , but she kept changing her schedule plus my work schedule was crazy and it just petered out. Plus it was like 250 a pop out of pocket.
We tried marriage therapy in the past but every session would cause my wife to get angry and start crying. I always felt bad for whatever I said. At the time, I also spoke about frugality and pairing back. My wife referred to it as my "simple life" idea at the time and even the therapist seemed to side with her. Told me that "you have a certain lifestyle to maintain" or something like that. Said "you have to hustle". Basically came out of it feeling stupid and wrong. She was good at making me sound crazy by repeating sound bites and then saying "that's just crazy". I sucked at defending myself.
I think sometimes that in NYC if you don't express the desire to work as hard as possible for as much money as possible people assume you are depressed or crazy.
So I just haven't found the right people - but it's hard to be too motivated about trying it again after my past experiences.
Definitely going to check out those books!
Thanks for all the helpful supportive comments. It is hard to talk about this with my friends and family. And it is nice to feel crazy for some of the ideas I have.
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rjg, I highly recommend you google Athol Kay and read his book.
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Lots of great, thoughtful advice. Sorry if this thread has become more psychological than financial.
So I did confront my wife about her behavior last night and she went on a 2 hour tirade on me for ruining her last day before going back to work. Listed everything I've ever done wrong. Again threatened to leave if I don't change. I am really bad at dealing with angry people- always feel like I am completely in the wrong. So i ended up apologizing for everything.
Later that night she apologized for "flipping out" and that she "Gets it from her family" and it's not cool.
Today she had forgotten her phone and asked if I could bring it to her work. We had lunch and she was talking about how "she'd move anywhere I found a job". She also said something about "creating your own job.
So that was good I guess - although I feel whipsawed and still don't feel comfortable really talking to her. I never know how she's going to react or what will set her off. Even just telling her that might set her off. She just texted me that she is so "lucky to have me".
Regarding therapists, I've tried about 5 over the years for job and assertiveness issues. Mostly, it became an expensive way of venting. The last one I had seemed decent , but she kept changing her schedule plus my work schedule was crazy and it just petered out. Plus it was like 250 a pop out of pocket.
We tried marriage therapy in the past but every session would cause my wife to get angry and start crying. I always felt bad for whatever I said. At the time, I also spoke about frugality and pairing back. My wife referred to it as my "simple life" idea at the time and even the therapist seemed to side with her. Told me that "you have a certain lifestyle to maintain" or something like that. Said "you have to hustle". Basically came out of it feeling stupid and wrong. She was good at making me sound crazy by repeating sound bites and then saying "that's just crazy". I sucked at defending myself.
I think sometimes that in NYC if you don't express the desire to work as hard as possible for as much money as possible people assume you are depressed or crazy.
So I just haven't found the right people - but it's hard to be too motivated about trying it again after my past experiences.
Definitely going to check out those books!
Thanks for all the helpful supportive comments. It is hard to talk about this with my friends and family. And it is nice to feel crazy for some of the ideas I have.
That's the problem with a therapist; good chance they are an idiot. They are not good for lifestyle advice. Stick to the communication issues
On the 2 hour tirade, I don't even know what to say. This is on both of you. If it was me in your shoes, there would have been no tirade; I would have just walked out, at worst. You choose to put up with it so you promote that behavior.
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Maybe you should write her a letter. This way you can say what you want to say but can't because of your problem with assertiveness.
A letter is great because you can say exactly what you want to say, and you have time to review it for tact, rudeness and something won't "come out wrong,"
You can explain that you don't deal with her "tirades" (again, use good tact here...) and you will just have to walk away if she starts yelling (as in another room, or leave to a friend's house until she cools off"
If she does, stick to your guns and walk away and tell her she needs to calm down. This way you will have a pre-planned, simple response if she starts to get unreasonable. And she will know what to expect if you do.
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I'd also recommend a book like The One-life Solution by Henry Cloud. Your wife is taking advantage of your weak boundaries. You should not be feeling so bad and guilty and confused and crazy because you're bringing up valid goals and concerns. That's a very toxic communication style. I've experienced it in the past, and it must be dealt with differently than what you've done before.
One of the most basic lessons in that book is that we don't realize how different someone other than ourselves might react to "new information." We simply have to be informed, told something new, and we consider it and add it to our decision-making tree, which shapes our behavior. But there is a whole other set of people that tend to be reactive, and to largely only consider how things affect themselves - they'll listen to your new information, and say that they hear it, and they might even change for a short while to accommodate you, but before long, they will resume behaving as they have before, which is based on what affects them, rather than consideration for other people. Again, I recommend the book because you'll get a deeper understanding of what I'm trying to explain, as well as what you can do differently to get somewhere in enforcing your boundaries and making progress towards your goals.
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Not to harp on the issue, but you do realize, don't you, that if the genders were reversed you would be considered an emotionally and psychologically abused wife.
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Lots of great, thoughtful advice. Sorry if this thread has become more psychological than financial.
So I did confront my wife about her behavior last night and she went on a 2 hour tirade on me for ruining her last day before going back to work. Listed everything I've ever done wrong. Again threatened to leave if I don't change. I am really bad at dealing with angry people- always feel like I am completely in the wrong. So i ended up apologizing for everything.
We're here for support - Mustachianism is about more than money. :)
I have a small amount of counseling/mediation training, and the bolded part is called kitchen-sinking. It's a very unhealthy thing to have in arguments.
http://books.google.com/books?id=5YlDMmeSmyYC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=argument+kitchensinking&source=bl&ots=Zizl8zM_lW&sig=ZSsoA12woHpM5giqheSo8aKTa58&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3eHrU4bqOpL2yQTj54CoCg&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=argument%20kitchensinking&f=false
Not to harp on the issue, but you do realize, don't you, that if the genders were reversed you would be considered an emotionally and psychologically abused wife.
+1
Everyone would jump on the scumbag husband who forced the wife to go back, even though she wanted to stay home with the kids. Over here, we're trending towards more gender equality, and so we think it's the exact same when the dad wants to stay home with the kids. Equal opportunity for both genders is necessary.
Don't do this, but it's part of Lean In that guys have to spend more time at the kitchen table. I imagined you going up to her and saying, "Lean In to your career! I'll support you!"
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Threatening to leave if you don't change and listing everything you've ever done wrong is bullying and a terrible way to treat someone. It sounds like she's probably threatened and generally terrified about the changes you're suggesting and what it could mean to her lifestyle.
There have already been many good suggestions so I won't add much beyond re-emphasizing the importance of amicable communication. This can be difficult but maybe try practicing this stuff with a friend--talking out you're points with a friend and seeing how they respond and what sorts of responses they might think of.
Also approach conversations and interactions with compassion; it sounds like your wife is scared and reacting aggressively to bowl you over into not changing and I would guess that she probably is wondering where your desire to change your lifestyle is coming from and probably feels a little disconnected from you. I would attempt to connect emotionally, compassionately, and make an effort to respectfully discuss. "this is what I'm thinking and what I would like, how do you feel about that where do you see that going; how can we compromise here?" sort of thing.
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Bro, are you my long-lost twin...?
I will say that I signed up for the forums SPECIFICALLY to comment to your post. What you are experiencing with your missus is EXACTLY the same sort of stuff that I went through, both on the external end ("You're crazy! You're nuts!" followed at times later by *weep weep*) and more importantly on the internal end (complete with thoughts of self-recrimination, like "I must be a crazy/bad dude for causing this pain - I'd better apologize to right the ship ASAP!").
There have been three books that changed my life.
1) the Bible
2) "The Alchemist" by Paulo Coelho
3) "Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life" by Cloud/Townsend.
I cannot recommend the third enough. Please read it. Please read it. Please read it.
I will say, though, that the authors do sometimes employ Christian principles / Biblical references, so if that's not your cup of tea, the book might not resonate with you. Full disclosure - as you could probably guess from my list above, I was more likely to be buyin' what they were sellin.'
What you need to do - like yesterday - is start working on healthy boundaries. Your wife comes home and flies off the handle at you because "you're ruining her last night out of work"? You CAN'T take her pain/emotions on. You go to counseling and end up apologizing for everything? Your inner monologue is telling you that you're the bad guy? Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.
Anyhow, at the risk of gettin' all kinds of religious on ya, I have been praying for you (all three of you guys!) and will continue to do so. Take a peek at Cloud/Townsend's work (and I heartily second the Gottman recommendation!). I have no affiliation to those guys and I'm just some random joker on the Internet, but your situation pulled at my heartstrings and I had to comment. Good luck, bro.
(oh, and wanted to add - props for setting yourself up financially at your age!! can you imagine the shit-fit if you had to slog away another ten or twenty years to get to the point you're at now? Allow yourself a pat on the back for that)
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More (non religious) book recommendations:
Codependent No More
Feeling Good, The new mood therapy
When I finally stood up to my ex and told them they couldn't try to control me/demean me anymore, they left in a hurry.
Reading MMM also helped me realize I'm not crazy for being frugal.
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Cloud/Townsend (or just Cloud) have been brought up twice in the last few posts. Between posts, I was reading, and the book I was reading about really crappy marriages also recommended Boundaries: When to Say Yes, How to Say No to Take Control of Your Life by Cloud/Townsend.
I read that book many, many years ago. I, too, found it life-changing. Absolutely. It does indeed have Christian references, which is very nice for folks that are trying to be nice/flexible/generous/kind/etc due to feeling their faith specifically asks them to be. Personally, not sharing that faith, I was repelled by several of those references, but I still loved the book! I think that says a lot for it. Thus, I "fourth" this recommendation.
No More Mr Nice Guy, that I mentioned earlier, seems to be entirely secular, and also entirely about developing internal and external boundaries. Not being able to remember the details of the Cloud/Townsend book, I am most excited about the possibility of you reading this newer one. But, when you glance at each of the many recommendations now in this thread, you will know which style/language/content resonates most with you anyway.
(Hee - I think those of us who have gone the journey of zero boundaries to pretty healthy ones are as zealous as we are about MMM itself! It's because it's life-changing to a similar degree, for sure.)
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Reading MMM also helped me realize I'm not crazy for being frugal.
Yea, no doubt.
Can I also just say Eff that therapist for calling you crazy. My guess would be that it was a garbage therapist as I can't imagine any therapist I've ever seen (seen both good and not so good) directing the word crazy at me or my actions. But then again, how can s/he justify the $150+/hour fee being charge if they encourage frugality?!
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So I did confront my wife about her behavior last night and she went on a 2 hour tirade on me for ruining her last day before going back to work. Listed everything I've ever done wrong. Again threatened to leave if I don't change. I am really bad at dealing with angry people- always feel like I am completely in the wrong. So i ended up apologizing for everything.
So at the beginning of this thread, I thought your wife was just a bit hormonal. It definitely seems like more than that. She sounds really controlling and manipulative. It also sounds like she cares more about her wants than your needs.
although I feel whipsawed and still don't feel comfortable really talking to her. I never know how she's going to react or what will set her off. Even just telling her that might set her off. She just texted me that she is so "lucky to have me".
Example of manipulative behavior?
We tried marriage therapy in the past but every session would cause my wife to get angry and start crying. I always felt bad for whatever I said. At the time, I also spoke about frugality and pairing back. My wife referred to it as my "simple life" idea at the time and even the therapist seemed to side with her. Told me that "you have a certain lifestyle to maintain" or something like that. Said "you have to hustle". Basically came out of it feeling stupid and wrong. She was good at making me sound crazy by repeating sound bites and then saying "that's just crazy". I sucked at defending myself.
Getting angry and crying at the first sign of disagreement = manipulative.
She even manipulated the therapist into siding with her. Future therapy with her probably wouldn't work for this reason. It would probably be better to do therapy solo to help you learn more effective techniques for standing your ground.
Also, sometimes it can be really good to call people out when they aren't being respectful of your ideas. Once I mentioned an idea I had to my boyfriend and he cut me off and started telling me what a bad idea it was. I responded by telling him that he didn't let me finish explaining it before making judgments. He immediately realized what a complainypants he was being at that moment, apologized, heard me out, and was a lot more open-minded about it in the end.
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Reading MMM also helped me realize I'm not crazy for being frugal.
Yea, no doubt.
Can I also just say Eff that therapist for calling you crazy. My guess would be that it was a garbage therapist as I can't imagine any therapist I've ever seen (seen both good and not so good) directing the word crazy at me or my actions. But then again, how can s/he justify the $150+/hour fee being charge if they encourage frugality?!
I read it as his wife calling him crazy, not the therapist. I think therapists generally try to avoid calling their patients crazy (at least to their face).
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I read it as his wife calling him crazy, not the therapist. I think therapists generally try to avoid calling their patients crazy (at least to their face).
I originally didn't but going back, that would make a lot more sense.
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This is about control. Your wife wants control. This is nothing new. This is not post partum hormones. This is a repeatable pattern of behavior. She is post partum and has hormones, yes, but that's now what this is about.
She wants to control the life 'she' has built, which is a vast improvement from the one she had growing up. She will not make sacrifices. If you want to quit, you are threatening her realm of control. So, maybe SHE will quit her job so that you won't be able to quit yours.
She will manipulate and brow beat you until you see how wrong/crazy/bad you are.
I know having a new baby throws a big kink in the mix. But you don't have money problems. You have relationship problems.
If it were me, I would be going to therapy and a lawyer, both. Just chat with the lawyer. Find out what could happen financially if she DOES follow through on the divorce threats. Know that she won't though, you are funding her lifestyle. She is just using these threats to control you. However, with such high net worth, I think it is prudent to have a lawyer involved.
Also, I would drop the conversations about money. If you want to cancel a service or membership, do it. If the wife argues, tell her she can pay for it herself. If she doesn't want to work, but wants luxuries, sell the house and let her use 'her' money to fund her lifestyle.
I'm sorry your wife is such a witch about it all. Just know it isn't about you. You are smart, capable, and make good choices. I've been impressed with how well you have sorted through the advice on this thread. Best of luck.
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This is about control. Your wife wants control. This is nothing new. This is not post partum hormones. This is a repeatable pattern of behavior. She is post partum and has hormones, yes, but that's now what this is about.
She wants to control the life 'she' has built, which is a vast improvement from the one she had growing up. She will not make sacrifices. If you want to quit, you are threatening her realm of control. So, maybe SHE will quit her job so that you won't be able to quit yours.
She will manipulate and brow beat you until you see how wrong/crazy/bad you are.
I know having a new baby throws a big kink in the mix. But you don't have money problems. You have relationship problems.
If it were me, I would be going to therapy and a lawyer, both. Just chat with the lawyer. Find out what could happen financially if she DOES follow through on the divorce threats. Know that she won't though, you are funding her lifestyle. She is just using these threats to control you. However, with such high net worth, I think it is prudent to have a lawyer involved.
Also, I would drop the conversations about money. If you want to cancel a service or membership, do it. If the wife argues, tell her she can pay for it herself. If she doesn't want to work, but wants luxuries, sell the house and let her use 'her' money to fund her lifestyle.
I'm sorry your wife is such a witch about it all. Just know it isn't about you. You are smart, capable, and make good choices. I've been impressed with how well you have sorted through the advice on this thread. Best of luck.
Hey no insulting witches now. :P Witches are a whole religion now. :)
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This is about control. Your wife wants control. This is nothing new. This is not post partum hormones. This is a repeatable pattern of behavior. She is post partum and has hormones, yes, but that's now what this is about.
She wants to control the life 'she' has built, which is a vast improvement from the one she had growing up. She will not make sacrifices. If you want to quit, you are threatening her realm of control. So, maybe SHE will quit her job so that you won't be able to quit yours.
She will manipulate and brow beat you until you see how wrong/crazy/bad you are.
I know having a new baby throws a big kink in the mix. But you don't have money problems. You have relationship problems.
If it were me, I would be going to therapy and a lawyer, both. Just chat with the lawyer. Find out what could happen financially if she DOES follow through on the divorce threats. Know that she won't though, you are funding her lifestyle. She is just using these threats to control you. However, with such high net worth, I think it is prudent to have a lawyer involved.
Also, I would drop the conversations about money. If you want to cancel a service or membership, do it. If the wife argues, tell her she can pay for it herself. If she doesn't want to work, but wants luxuries, sell the house and let her use 'her' money to fund her lifestyle.
I'm sorry your wife is such a witch about it all. Just know it isn't about you. You are smart, capable, and make good choices. I've been impressed with how well you have sorted through the advice on this thread. Best of luck.
Hey no insulting witches now. :P Witches are a whole religion now. :)
A persecuted one at that. And Wicca good and loved the earth, and woman power, and i'll be over here.
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And Wicca good and loved the earth, and woman power, and i'll be over here.
Once More with Feeling - woohoo! ROFLMAO
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Yeah... what makinbutter and scrubbyfish said. I am not Christian, which is why I like The One-Life Solution. While it does seem a bit like a book about work balance on the cover, it is really the non-Christian version of the Boundaries book. You learn the same things, but without the Bible references. (And what you learn about boundaries is very applicable to both relationships and work.)
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I was at a bookstore today and found the boundaries book. The other recommendations were out if stock. Like some of you, I could do without the biblical references but it's still helpful. I've read half of it so far, and it's a little high level though- would be great if it had some more examples of boundary setting in action.
Regardless it's very clear to me that I have boundary issues that cause problems at both home and work.
One thing the book mentions is not to try to start setting boundaries alone- get support from a therapist or group such as al anon. Maybe I'll try the 12 step thing though I've never been a big fan.
But it's clear this will be a tough battle for me. In the interim, I'm not sure how to proceed at both work/home. If I truly said what I felt, it could result in the loss of both my marriage and my job. Regardless of whether that would actually be a good thing in the long run, it would be a lot to handle at once, plus care for a baby.
But if I wait till I feel prepared, my anger and resentment could reach a boiling point.
Any suggestions for interim ways to better manage my home and work relationships?
I recently got an email from the hr person asking when my return date was because "they have urgent staffing needs". In other words, it will be shit storm when I return.
Here are some examples of boundaries I'd "like" to set:
Work:
-Not going to agree to a timeline before scoping the work with the team that will do it
(Boss will say "we just need a ballpark"..ballpark turns into iron clad)
-not going to work more than 8 hours a day
(Boss will say "thats fine as long as the work gets done)
-not going to change/cancel vacation or weekend/evening plans
(Same as above)
-not going to be responsible for dealing with last minute fire drills created by others poor planning
(Boss will say "lets not focus in what we to wrong but how we are going to fix it. This is an important client and we have to get this done)
-Going to need more time when using offshore staff
(Boss will say "we have to be smart about it/be creative".. Or some other type of vague nonsense )
At home, I'd like to say:
"No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive"
(Wife will say "why are you being so cheap?! Is this about your simple life plan again?! Or "but I'm really craving it!" "It's been such a stressful week!"
"I'd really like to discuss my ideas about financial independence"
"I'd like to take a lower paying job with less stress"
(Her: "you need to think about your family" "any job can be stressful if you let it" "I want an ambitious husband not a loser"
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One thing I've learned is to not answer my own questions for someone else; you've already answered all your boundaries with what you think others will say. This is very self-defeating and exhausting and while I'm sure you have a good idea of what you think they might say, you have to assert yourself to get what you need and want. Anyone can think of a thousand reasons why someone will tell them no but rarely focus on why someone will acquiesce; focus of the positive; focus on the yes. Never underestimate the power of positive mental attitude/positive thinking.
No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive
Stop phrasing things like this to your wife for a while; it's abundantly clear it is ineffective and causes strife. Focus on the positives of staying in, "let's cook dinner together so I can get exactly what I want/a healthy meal/a date night in/etcetc." Or try, "I'm cooking dinner tonight." No question, no discussion, you just do it. If she wants to take herself out, she can. Or also try phasing into things like this like, "I'll cook dinner and then we can go out for dessert!" and hit a ice cream shop or small bakery.
If I truly said what I felt, it could result in the loss of both my marriage and my job
I think what you meant to say is, "If I unleash all my anger at once on anyone it will be devastating for the relationship with whoever happens to be near." When you should probably be focusing on more how you really feel and what is causing the anger. For example, "I feel isolated, lonely, trapped, frustrated, pissed, that any time I bring up reducing our spending even a little, you scream/cry/yell." "I feel hurt, unhappy with the demand being put on my by you (boss) and don't feel as though I'm being respected in my proven capacities and it is inhibiting my ability" Or whatever the problem with work is.
Regarding the "ballpark" timeline. Give a response as though you were working with the worst crew possible. 4 month job but bad crew, tell him 6 months. When you finish in 5, you look good.
And for your own sake, again, stop making other people's responses for them (in your head); that's a one way ticket to misery and defeat.
EDIT: do you have friends you can talk to about your problems? If not, consider seeing a therapist alone. It's expensive but a lot cheaper than divorce/losing your job and your happiness is worth it.
Are you getting physical activity? There isn't much anger/frustration/agitation that 30 minutes beating on a heavy bag can't relieve.
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I was at a bookstore today and found the boundaries book. The other recommendations were out if stock. Like some of you, I could do without the biblical references but it's still helpful. I've read half of it so far, and it's a little high level though- would be great if it had some more examples of boundary setting in action.
Regardless it's very clear to me that I have boundary issues that cause problems at both home and work.
One thing the book mentions is not to try to start setting boundaries alone- get support from a therapist or group such as al anon. Maybe I'll try the 12 step thing though I've never been a big fan.
But it's clear this will be a tough battle for me. In the interim, I'm not sure how to proceed at both work/home. If I truly said what I felt, it could result in the loss of both my marriage and my job. Regardless of whether that would actually be a good thing in the long run, it would be a lot to handle at once, plus care for a baby.
But if I wait till I feel prepared, my anger and resentment could reach a boiling point.
Any suggestions for interim ways to better manage my home and work relationships?
I recently got an email from the hr person asking when my return date was because "they have urgent staffing needs". In other words, it will be shit storm when I return.
Here are some examples of boundaries I'd "like" to set:
Work:
-Not going to agree to a timeline before scoping the work with the team that will do it
(Boss will say "we just need a ballpark"..ballpark turns into iron clad)
-not going to work more than 8 hours a day
(Boss will say "thats fine as long as the work gets done)
-not going to change/cancel vacation or weekend/evening plans
(Same as above)
-not going to be responsible for dealing with last minute fire drills created by others poor planning
(Boss will say "lets not focus in what we to wrong but how we are going to fix it. This is an important client and we have to get this done)
-Going to need more time when using offshore staff
(Boss will say "we have to be smart about it/be creative".. Or some other type of vague nonsense )
At home, I'd like to say:
"No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive"
(Wife will say "why are you being so cheap?! Is this about your simple life plan again?! Or "but I'm really craving it!" "It's been such a stressful week!"
"I'd really like to discuss my ideas about financial independence"
"I'd like to take a lower paying job with less stress"
(Her: "you need to think about your family" "any job can be stressful if you let it" "I want an ambitious husband not a loser"
rjg:
Home life I have no clue about since I don't deal with those sorts of things.
But for the balance at work, the way to get things better is to find a middle ground. If you abruptly start not being willing to be a little flexible it will backfire on you. I am sure you know a few of "those guys" that never seem to have to work late, and don't get the crap rained down on them. But the other side of "those guys" is that they always handle thier work prossionally, they always make thier deadlines, they seldom volunteer but will do what is asked. The way to get there is that with all the work on your plate you need to be very up front about expectations. "Yes I can handle this project X, but if I start on X this week, Y which was already committed to by Manager Z will not be done on time. Will you address this with Manager Z or can this wait till project Y is finished?"
It is a fine balancing act between too rigid ("saying "no") and being walked over. Gradual change is better. Also there are slight differneces in all corporate cultures. Find a couple guys who have that balance you want, and really watch how they respond to peers and managers. That will help more than any book or therapist.
If HR is calling, get your butt back to work. If you don't it will be held against you. It will suck either way, but if you head back sooner you at least have a chip on your side, ("Look I came back when you called, but I still have things at home that need me").
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One of the big things you learn with consequences is that you are "responsible to" others but not "for" them, and "your consequences are your own."
Work needs you, but they also take advantage of you. If "the work won't get done on the timeline I set if you don't work more than 8 hours" then you say "I understand that. You set an unrealistic timeline, and that's not achievable, but I've made it clear that I'm not available for more than 8 hours, so you have to start setting deadlines based on what I tell you, or you have to find additional staff elsewhere. I'm fulfilling my responsibility to you as an employee, and it's your responsibility to set achievable deadlines and ensure that the resources available to you are enough." (Obviously you have to progress from where you are now to this point. Start with communicating your boundaries and work up to enforcing them.) Again, work needs you - if they are struggling to meet deadlines with you working 8 hours, they aren't going to do very well when you work 0. So they are NOT likely to fire you for "only working 8 hours."
Your wife needs you (or at least, really wants you around for the lifestyle she wants.) She might be a little upset that she didn't get to go out to eat on a Tuesday night, but she'd be really upset if she was fending for herself without you around. Again, you have to start communicating your boundaries... "Our long-term goals are important to us, not just what we want right now. Because of that, we can't eat out more than once a week or we compromise on our goals. I know we can make a great team and be a good family together as long as we value each other's goals and needs and work together on achieving them. Since I know you're hungry for Italian, I'll cook some for you tonight!"
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LOVED zataks' post! (Subsequent ones posted while I was typing this.)
Adding: Learning boundaries is a steep learning curve, is terrifying when we start, and takes lots of practice.
When we practice boundaries, especially if we haven't before, people do react.
We need to be emotionally and psychologically prepared for the tantrums some people will indeed have in response.
It won't be necessarily easy or smooth, no. But it will be worth it.
When we are first learning boundaries, many of us tend to swing to the other end of the boundary pendulum (from none/weak to overdoing). Be aware of that potential, adjust as needed, forgive yourself.
I like practicing them in writing. So, if you can keep your dialogue with your boss to email at this point, you can practice: drafting, review boundaries book (or checking in here), revising, sending...breathing through his response, pondering it, pondering your response.
One boundary piece is that nothing is an emergency. We can take all the time we need to respond to proposals, questions, etc. For those of us who've struggled with boundary stuff for decades, this one step -of taking the time we need to determine our true response- can be a lifesaver.
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Thanks scrubbyfish.
One boundary piece is that nothing is an emergency. We can take all the time we need to respond to proposals, questions, etc. For those of us who've struggled with boundary stuff for decades, this one step -of taking the time we need to determine our true response- can be a lifesaver.
Seconding this
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Here's a simple strategy that really wins at work, lets you dictate reasonable terms, all while getting recognition and raises and promotions: Be positive and exude a "can do", cheerful attitude all the time for your management. Then keep them informed. It's that easy.
When your boss says, "We need to get this project done for Client X in <unlikely or impossible timeline>", a good response is, "You've got it, I'll do my best", said in a confident and cheerful tone. If you feel it is really necessary, you can mention one or two expected hurdles along the way (like offshore work delays) so your boss is not caught off guard if/when they occur. But if you mention those hurdles, make sure to follow it up with a positive statement like, "But we'll do everything we can to make it work."
This is what the boss wants to hear. It tells them right away that you are on their side looking for wins, not problems. They don't want to hear negativity or reasons why it can't be done, or "reality." That's why they make vague statements like, "We'll have to work creatively" and so on. They just want you to say "Okay, we'll get it done!"
Then as you work on the project, keep your boss apprised of progress every step of the way. Let them know of successes, and any issues as they arise. Suggest solutions, and ask for their buy-in. But always project that positive, can-do attitude, tell them you are doing everything you can to get this project completed successfully. Let them know you are on the boss' team, and you want our team to succeed. Then go home at 5:00 or whatever reasonable time every day.
If you are eventually unable to make the unlikely/impossible deadline they set, they will think it's because problems largely outside your control came about, not because you were slacking or incompetent. After all, you kept them up to date at every step, they were aware of the hurdles at every step, and they were part of the decision-making along the way. And you gave them the "can do" attitude, so it's clearly not because you weren't trying or didn't take it seriously.
And of course, be competent (which we already know you are). As long as the boss isn't seeing obvious failure or mistakes directly caused by you, they aren't going to blame you for any issues that arise. It would be like blaming themselves, which bosses definitely don't do. They like you, you're on their team -- they aren't going to blame you any more than they will blame themselves. Nope, they'll blame the problems on the actual factors that arose, or the guy on the team without the can-do attitude.
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I was at a bookstore today and found the boundaries book. The other recommendations were out if stock. Like some of you, I could do without the biblical references but it's still helpful. I've read half of it so far, and it's a little high level though- would be great if it had some more examples of boundary setting in action.
Regardless it's very clear to me that I have boundary issues that cause problems at both home and work.
One thing the book mentions is not to try to start setting boundaries alone- get support from a therapist or group such as al anon. Maybe I'll try the 12 step thing though I've never been a big fan.
But it's clear this will be a tough battle for me. In the interim, I'm not sure how to proceed at both work/home. If I truly said what I felt, it could result in the loss of both my marriage and my job. Regardless of whether that would actually be a good thing in the long run, it would be a lot to handle at once, plus care for a baby.
But if I wait till I feel prepared, my anger and resentment could reach a boiling point.
Any suggestions for interim ways to better manage my home and work relationships?
I recently got an email from the hr person asking when my return date was because "they have urgent staffing needs". In other words, it will be shit storm when I return.
Here are some examples of boundaries I'd "like" to set:
Work:
-Not going to agree to a timeline before scoping the work with the team that will do it
(Boss will say "we just need a ballpark"..ballpark turns into iron clad)
-not going to work more than 8 hours a day
(Boss will say "thats fine as long as the work gets done)
-not going to change/cancel vacation or weekend/evening plans
(Same as above)
-not going to be responsible for dealing with last minute fire drills created by others poor planning
(Boss will say "lets not focus in what we to wrong but how we are going to fix it. This is an important client and we have to get this done)
-Going to need more time when using offshore staff
(Boss will say "we have to be smart about it/be creative".. Or some other type of vague nonsense )
At home, I'd like to say:
"No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive"
(Wife will say "why are you being so cheap?! Is this about your simple life plan again?! Or "but I'm really craving it!" "It's been such a stressful week!"
"I'd really like to discuss my ideas about financial independence"
"I'd like to take a lower paying job with less stress"
(Her: "you need to think about your family" "any job can be stressful if you let it" "I want an ambitious husband not a loser"
No we can't go out to eat tonight because it's too expensive--That's a dictate. Dictates aren't really how healthy partnerships work. Yes, your wife's behavior is unhealthy, but responding with finite statements of your own isn't going to make things better, and it isn't fair or especially reasonable.
Your saying flat refusal to allow eating out is no better than her refusal not to eat out. You guys have to meet in the middle. Try getting her to agree to some sort of budget. You give by allowing $400 per month on eating out, she gives by reducing from the current $600 (or whatever it is).
See if she's willing to sit down and work on things. Because right now, it seems both of you are making pronouncements to one another.
Perhaps, as bitter as it may be, start with an apology. "Look, I'm sorry that I sprung all that on you out of the blue. It was bad timing, and it was extreme and unexpected for you. That was wrong, and I apologize. Perhaps we can start over. All I want is a life where we and Daughter are happy and secure and fulfilled. I'd like to sit down with you to discuss ways that w can make that happen, and see what changes both of us--not just you, but both of us--are willing to make in order to lead us toward that change. Not right now. I want you to have time to think about it. But maybe next weekend in the afternoon, we can sit down. if we each bring a list of things that are most important, and maybe a mental list of things that are flexible, that might be a good start. I don't want you to live a life where you feel deprived, and I know you don't want me to live a life where I dread going to work every day. I can't go on as things are [There's your boundary, or at least the start of it~] but I'm sure there a solution that gets both of us what we need. Let's work on a plan, starting with a conversation next weekend, that gets us all there."
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I've tried to attach a PDF of something called the passion test. It basically is an exercise you and DW can do together that helps you both decide what are the most important values in your lives. I would give her a copy and print a copy for yourself. Spend a few days working on the activity. Then come together and compare lists.
Really really try to value your wife's passions and hope that she also values yours. If she is condescending or rude, call her out and ask for her respect and kindness.
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I've tried to attach a PDF of something called the passion test. It basically is an exercise you and DW can do together that helps you both decide what are the most important values in your lives. I would give her a copy and print a copy for yourself. Spend a few days working on the activity. Then come together and compare lists.
Really really try to value your wife's passions and hope that she also values yours. If she is condescending or rude, call her out and ask for her respect and kindness.
Looks interesting - ill give it a try!
Double down -
that's so simple it just might work! A few things though:
-generally the timelines I'm handed are under estimated by atkeast 2 months from the beginning. So by the end if day 1 you're behind.
-or, my favorite, the client requests a last minute meeting or recurring late night /early morning meetings.
-when the shit inevitably hits the fan my boss likes to see everyone working nights and weekends to try and get it done. It's really a semi coerced form of unpaid overtime
-if I'm the one that doesn't show up for that (and I've tried that tactic) I become the fall guy. Because I don't care about my job I can sort of deal with that but it's still stressful
-in other words, I think our projects our sold in "bad faith" from the beginning with the assumption that people will be manipulated into long hours to get it done.
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Are your projects comparable from one to the next? If so, in addition to Doubledown's suggestions, what about comparing it to a past project?
"This is a lot like project X, which took us 4 months. But if you think we can cut that time in half, we'll definitely aim for 2 and see what we can do!" That way, you are being positive, but also not misleading from the beginning (which they can also get upset about, if you promise but don't manage to deliver.
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Ha, no doubt they're trying to hand you and everyone you work with a shit sandwich, but no problem. Here's what I'd do, and they all fall under "positive, can-do" approach that will make you an even bigger superstar at work without getting walked over:
-generally the timelines I'm handed are under estimated by atkeast 2 months from the beginning. So by the end if day 1 you're behind.
Understood, and no problem. Just confidently and cheerfully say, "Okay, we'll do everything we can to get it done by <date X>" knowing that you likely won't make it. But you are telling the truth, you will be giving it your best shot.
-or, my favorite, the client requests a last minute meeting or recurring late night /early morning meetings.
Fortunately my friend, you have the perfect, legitimate reason you can't be there -- you have a newborn and a family! But you don't have to try to weasel out or be apologetic or anything -- you just confidently state, "I can't be there first thing in the morning or late at night, but I'm free at the following times during the day. Which of these times would work for you?" You're giving them a positive solution without caving into unreasonable demands. If they persist, just repeat you can't do late or early hours (no explanation needed, although you could throw in a joke that if your newborn's diaper isn't changed in 30 mins. then NYC may be facing a Level 3 Biohazard). Then tell them again you'd be happy to meet first thing tomorrow as you pack up your things to go.
-when the shit inevitably hits the fan my boss likes to see everyone working nights and weekends to try and get it done. It's really a semi coerced form of unpaid overtime
Yes, no doubt they will squeeze every ounce of effort they can get out of everyone! I would save those nights and weekends for a few, select emergencies that really matter when your boss sees you there. So, you're showing you care. But other than that, I'd stick to giving all the dedication and positivity you can during the workday, keeping your boss apprised of progress, and heading home on time while giving your boss the indication that working extra nights and weekends really isn't going to move things forward any faster. But always keep it positive -- "Boss, (while holding your coat and gear to go home in your hands), I'm calling it a day. I've got the Flux Capacitor process running overnight, Dwight Shrute is working on ABC right now, and XYZ is queued up for first thing in the morning. The team and I will be meeting and completing DEFG tomorrow. See you then, make sure to order an extra Martini tonight!" Then leave.
-if I'm the one that doesn't show up for that (and I've tried that tactic) I become the fall guy. Because I don't care about my job I can sort of deal with that but it's still stressful
Yeah, it's stressful if you let it be, no doubt. And I don't mean to undervalue this, I totally get it. I was the same way. It is not easy to get past this, but you really must not take that kind of misplaced responsibility on yourself (see above what other posters have said about not feeling guilty for other people's issues). I'll bet you aren't really the fall guy, you just think others think that. Your bosses are underselling the project from the start, they've set it up this way. You owe them your best effort during the normal work day, nothing more. And thank God, you are FI, so you really have it made with no worries. Look at it this way, WORST CASE SCENARIO THEY LET YOU GO -- SUCCESS!!! I will be the first to go up to NYC and buy you a celebratory beer! But sadly, that's not going to happen. Your boss is going to see a confident, on-the-ball guy who doesn't get pushed around and who is leadership material. They're going to want to promote you further and put you in charge of bigger things.
-in other words, I think our projects our sold in "bad faith" from the beginning with the assumption that people will be manipulated into long hours to get it done.
Agreed, but see above. I like the old saying, "No one can take advantage of you unless you let them."
By the way, I used to put in overtime and work my ass off to complete impossible deadlines too. But once I had paid my dues and established a reputation, that was that. I stopped spending my life at work, and my career only took off even further from there. You've already paid your dues and established a successful reputation, no one is going to fault you for leaving on time. It's highly unlikely anyone will even notice. And even if they did, f*** 'em. You don't need or even want this job!
And dude, the overwhelming response on this thread tells you there are a whole lot of people that like you and are pulling for you!
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I've tried to attach a PDF of something called the passion test. It basically is an exercise you and DW can do together that helps you both decide what are the most important values in your lives. I would give her a copy and print a copy for yourself. Spend a few days working on the activity. Then come together and compare lists.
Really really try to value your wife's passions and hope that she also values yours. If she is condescending or rude, call her out and ask for her respect and kindness.
Looks interesting - ill give it a try!
Double down -
that's so simple it just might work! A few things though:
-generally the timelines I'm handed are under estimated by atkeast 2 months from the beginning. So by the end if day 1 you're behind.
-or, my favorite, the client requests a last minute meeting or recurring late night /early morning meetings.
-when the shit inevitably hits the fan my boss likes to see everyone working nights and weekends to try and get it done. It's really a semi coerced form of unpaid overtime
-if I'm the one that doesn't show up for that (and I've tried that tactic) I become the fall guy. Because I don't care about my job I can sort of deal with that but it's still stressful
-in other words, I think our projects our sold in "bad faith" from the beginning with the assumption that people will be manipulated into long hours to get it done.
I'm sure your already well aware of this, but in IT sometimes timelines are dictated by people without a technical background, so they really don't know the effort involved in a project. When these instances pop-up you do not want to start a project when you know something is grossly under-scoped. I have worked on projects that were scoped to be 100 hours by sales people that turned in 2000 hours projects. Sometimes your best bet it to push back and ask for more detailed requirements and a formal scope document (or offer to help create the document yourself). This allows all parties to see how much work is needed on paper before the project begins. These documents also hold the client or stakeholders feet to fire and out exactly what they expect the system or setup to include.
It may seem like extra work, but defining clear expectations up front have saved me on many a project. Going with the flow on any IT project is a perfect way to invite scope creep at it worst. You may also want to look into Agile development methodologies where you don't even define project scopes up front, you constantly keep in contact with the client and scope work in week/feature sprints. I have found Agile to be a tough sell though because it makes a project difficult to budget for, but it is worth a shot. It's in everybody's interest to have the most accurate estimate possible for a project, so spend some time up front and save headaches in the future! Good Luck!
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rjg, I dont' know where you work but wanted to post because I have hunch I know what you're into if you have a big digital agency gig. I switched careers into web design right around the boom - 2000 - started as a jack of all trades visual designer, information architect and light HTML coder and worked for a very small agency with local clients creating websites from discovery through production. Nothing was ever too crazy but I did have a few nights that went until midnight even there.
I went to grad school in 2005 for HCI/Design Research and by the time I came out the other end the field was now called User Experience. I went corporate and now I have a big fat fancypants UX job with with a big fat stodgy corporation. I have people who work for me and with me who are exiles from the big agencies -- the Razorfishes, the R/GA's, the Ogilvy's of the world. They would never ever ever go back to their 80+ hour workweeks. The client called at 5 PM and needs it tomorrow? Stay until midnight get it done. The client called to complain because you underdelivered? Work all night to get it up to par...
I know exactly what happens when the engagement director or account manager asks for a "swag" for than 120 day phase 1 SOW and then underbids to get the job or agrees to an unrealistic timeline to get the job. And I know what happens when a multi-million dollar client throws its weight around. Not only do I run an internal team with grateful exiles from your world so happy to be on "the other side", I am that client on the other end saying that one project we outsourced to the vendor is not up to snuff and making folks in that fancypants agency in NYC scramble like ants. We know you'll do whatever you need, you want our check and we're in control.
If you're in the situation I think you're in, saying you can't stay late is really not an option.
Can you go in-house? I highly recommend exploring something corporate. While I deal with all the typical batshit territorial corporate politics, I work reasonable hours, take all my vacation and I only work late by my own choice. While I'm not exactly sure what you do (sounds like you're back-end/tech) if you have any decent interactive skill set -- front or back-end -- your resume should catch recruiters' eyes, especially if you are at a "name" place (and it sounds like your wife wouldn't settle for anything less. ;-)
FWIW, I'm completely burned out on the digital/tech/UX world too, I don't like the trends or the way it's evolving -- Silicon Valley and all the apps designed to solve minor complainypants first-world problems are the bane of my existence -- and I can't wait to FIRE and do something more authentic with my life.
But if you're at the type of employer I think you're at, I highly recommend exploring an escape from the agency side of the industry first, that's for sure. Those places are designed to burn you out!
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rjg, I dont' know where you work but wanted to post because I have hunch I know what you're into if you have a big digital agency gig. I switched careers into web design right around the boom - 2000 - started as a jack of all trades visual designer, information architect and light HTML coder and worked for a very small agency with local clients creating websites from discovery through production. Nothing was ever too crazy but I did have a few nights that went until midnight even there.
I went to grad school in 2005 for HCI/Design Research and by the time I came out the other end the field was now called User Experience. I went corporate and now I have a big fat fancypants UX job with with a big fat stodgy corporation. I have people who work for me and with me who are exiles from the big agencies -- the Razorfishes, the R/GA's, the Ogilvy's of the world. They would never ever ever go back to their 80+ hour workweeks. The client called at 5 PM and needs it tomorrow? Stay until midnight get it done. The client called to complain because you underdelivered? Work all night to get it up to par...
I know exactly what happens when the engagement director or account manager asks for a "swag" for than 120 day phase 1 SOW and then underbids to get the job or agrees to an unrealistic timeline to get the job. And I know what happens when a multi-million dollar client throws its weight around. Not only do I run an internal team with grateful exiles from your world so happy to be on "the other side", I am that client on the other end saying that one project we outsourced to the vendor is not up to snuff and making folks in that fancypants agency in NYC scramble like ants. We know you'll do whatever you need, you want our check and we're in control.
If you're in the situation I think you're in, saying you can't stay late is really not an option.
Can you go in-house? I highly recommend exploring something corporate. While I deal with all the typical batshit territorial corporate politics, I work reasonable hours, take all my vacation and I only work late by my own choice. While I'm not exactly sure what you do (sounds like you're back-end/tech) if you have any decent interactive skill set -- front or back-end -- your resume should catch recruiters' eyes, especially if you are at a "name" place (and it sounds like your wife wouldn't settle for anything less. ;-)
FWIW, I'm completely burned out on the digital/tech/UX world too, I don't like the trends or the way it's evolving -- Silicon Valley and all the apps designed to solve minor complainypants first-world problems are the bane of my existence -- and I can't wait to FIRE and do something more authentic with my life.
But if you're at the type of employer I think you're at, I highly recommend exploring an escape from the agency side of the industry first, that's for sure. Those places are designed to burn you out!
I was going to post something very similar. My husband was in the same situation working for an agency where everything is client driven. At first the diversity of projects and fast pace was exciting but it got old fast. Like Ikell, he is now in a corporate giant with a laid back job where they bend over backward to make him comfortable and don't shut up about the importance of 'work-life balance'. When he occasionally works late or puts in a couple hours on a weekend he makes sure to compensate by leaving early another day or taking a day off. And the pay is better. So that's my suggestion too - get out of client-oriented work if you can.
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Yeah I work at an agency and totally agree that getting out if that world is top priority. The client above all else mentality is completely draining. I've been madly applying to corporate type jobs- actually any and all non agency jobs. At this point, I'd almost rather do anything else. For some reason it seems very easy for me to get another agency job but very difficult to land a corporate gig. I suspect that agencies are easier to get jobs at because they're always looking for more "cannon fodder".
One issue I have is that I've been so depressed/burned out at work for so long that my growth and performance have suffered. I have less than 0 interest in what I do so I end up doing the minimum. And I can barely remember the details of projects I've worked on - I just sort of block them out. If you asked me to describe a technology I've worked with, I could muster a few high level sentences at best.
As some of you pointed out, it's very hard to say no to client fire drills in this environment. Sure, I could do it but it would lead quickly to being fired. Now that's not necessarily a bad thing in my mind but I might as well just resign if I'm going to try that. Getting a fat layoff package like financial samurai did would be nice but that's never going to happen- they give 2 weeks pay if you're lucky. Still, I think double downs advice of combining "positive can do" with leaving at 5 might be the best/only option till I either have a resignation plan or another job.
The only people that seem to get away wjth having good hours are those who are complete assholes. They come to meetings, yell at everyone then storm off. People are scared of them and I sometimes see these guys leacing at 4 or 5. At this point, I'd try it if I could pull it off.
Despite the issues at home, being away from the office on leave has helped me regain a little confidence and hope. So I've seized on that to apply for as many jobs as possible before I go back. I'm still young, healthy and have energy when I'm not at work so I've got to think there's a place for me somewhere.
Totally agree on the BS factor of the tech industry. Im so tired of social media and ridiculous apps. The good part about that is that I never use Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, for personal use so I'm not "addicted" like many are. And if I hear the words "platform", "mobile" and "digital" any more I think I'm going to puke.
But I'm loving life as a SAHD right now - wish I could keep doing it!
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If you're in the situation I think you're in, saying you can't stay late is really not an option.
Is this really not an option? I work in consulting and yes you have to stay late every once in a while to hit a deadline, but when this happens over and over again it is a sign of a poorly planned/executed project plan. Do you have control over project scope at all or is it dictated to you?
I don't know how many times I have been on client calls and said that I needed to leave because it was getting late and that I would look into it more in the morning. Mostly everyone is relieved because they are afraid to speak up and do it themselves. Outside of the few workaholics on the call that get pissed, f-them, its usually their fault you are behind to begin with. Having "all hands on deck" to complete an overdue project is really just a sign that the point person has messed up the timeline and is looking for help fast. Let them deal with their own fall-out. Make an excuse that you cannot help because you have other projects/clients that take precedence. Can you tell I'm a bit jaded? :-).
I would also plan to have a chat with your direct superior about the situation. Be honest and tell them that you cannot continue to work this way or something will give. If they don't care, then show them the same respect. From there you need to talk with your wife about quitting without another job lined up. You are not quitting to pursue FIRE, but quitting because you are ready to self destruct. Tell her that FIRE is a long term goal, but part of the reason it so appealing now is because the work situation you are in now. As others have pointed out FIRE maybe a "cry for help" currently because of the stress you are under. Hopefully she understands, but if she doesn't support you be prepared to quit anyway without her support and figure out a way to live on your savings alone for a little while. I know this option sucks, but hopefully it won't come to this.
I feel for you, it sounds like a crappy situation, but you have savings and you have options. There lots of other people in the same situation as you living lives of quiet desperation because they don't have the savings you have. Good luck!
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If you're in the situation I think you're in, saying you can't stay late is really not an option.
Is this really not an option? I work in consulting and yes you have to stay late every once in a while to hit a deadline, but when this happens over and over again it is a sign of a poorly planned/executed project plan. Do you have control over project scope at all or is it dictated to you?
I don't know how many times I have been on client calls and said that I needed to leave because it was getting late and that I would look into it more in the morning. Mostly everyone is relieved because they are afraid to speak up and do it themselves. Outside of the few workaholics on the call that get pissed, f-them, its usually their fault you are behind to begin with. Having "all hands on deck" to complete an overdue project is really just a sign that the point person has messed up the timeline and is looking for help fast. Let them deal with their own fall-out. Make an excuse that you cannot help because you have other projects/clients that take precedence. Can you tell I'm a bit jaded? :-).
I would also plan to have a chat with your direct superior about the situation. Be honest and tell them that you cannot continue to work this way or something will give. If they don't care, then show them the same respect. From there you need to talk with your wife about quitting without another job lined up. You are not quitting to pursue FIRE, but quitting because you are ready to self destruct. Tell her that FIRE is a long term goal, but part of the reason it so appealing now is because the work situation you are in now. As others have pointed out FIRE maybe a "cry for help" currently because of the stress you are under. Hopefully she understands, but if she doesn't support you be prepared to quit anyway without her support and figure out a way to live on your savings alone for a little while. I know this option sucks, but hopefully it won't come to this.
I feel for you, it sounds like a crappy situation, but you have savings and you have options. There lots of other people in the same situation as you living lives of quiet desperation because they don't have the savings you have. Good luck!
In theory I have influence over the scope, but only to the extent that I agree with whatever lowball timeline, and high scope the client (and therefure the account/sales people who want the money). I always push back, state my concerns and things move ahead anyway with me in charge of "making it work". My boss really doesn't care- some of his favorites sayings are "shit flows downhill" "you gotta do what you gotta do, and "I don't care what it takes". The best thing I can say about him is that he doesn't micromanage. So as double down suggests, it may be better to just yes sir him and then just work 8 hours a day.
You are right that I am way better off than many people who have crappy jobs. I need to always be thankful for that. My choices could come down to being married, and having a stressful job that I hate or being a single, unemployed dad. And I need to fully embrace the possibility of the latter in order to make progress in changing the situation. Maybe I find something in the middle, but as of now those are the 2 options as I see it.
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My choices could come down to being married, and having a stressful job that I hate or being a single, unemployed dad. And I need to fully embrace the possibility of the latter in order to make progress in changing the situation. Maybe I find something in the middle, but as of now those are the 2 options as I see it.
rjg, there's a lot of spectrum space between "staying in the job you hate" and "single, unemployed dad". You're taking positive steps by applying for jobs and by distilling what's bothering you about the current job so you have a better idea of what you're looking for in the next one. And feel free to blatantly use your kid as an excuse to work regular hours when you get back.
Everything feels a little desperate now; I get that. Especially with your wife going back to work and you being home alone with the little guy. That's a lot of hours to ruminate on just how awful things could get. It's such a cliche, but maybe work on taking things one day at a time? Even if you want to be home with him, babies - ALL babies - are exhausting.
This is a period of huge transition for you. You seem like a "roll with it" kind of guy, which has its downsides, as we've seen in this thread, but it has upsides too. Do your best to stay optimistic. You're young, wealthy, and have a beautiful healthy baby. I know you want change to happen NOW or maybe even YESTERDAY, but the truth is that change isn't going to come immediately, and you've got to find a way to cope in the meantime.
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By the way, I used to put in overtime and work my ass off to complete impossible deadlines too. But once I had paid my dues and established a reputation, that was that. I stopped spending my life at work, and my career only took off even further from there. You've already paid your dues and established a successful reputation, no one is going to fault you for leaving on time. It's highly unlikely anyone will even notice. And even if they did, f*** 'em. You don't need or even want this job!
This! ^^
I used to work insane hours to try and please a whole crowd of people. Even while in the midst of that, I knew that would just created MORE people who needed to be pleased, rather than less. Eventually I just started only doing critical work & I refused to apologize for ignoring the other work. Wish I could say I had some sort of awakening that led me to this, but honestly I just got too busy to do all the work. I sort of backed into the 80/20 rule and ended up with a massive promotion as a result.
I've moved roles since then, but I still apply the same attitude these days. There's work that's useful and benefits the greater good and there's nonsense work. I try to do most of the former and little of the latter.
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You are right that I am way better off than many people who have crappy jobs. I need to always be thankful for that. My choices could come down to being married, and having a stressful job that I hate or being a single, unemployed dad. And I need to fully embrace the possibility of the latter in order to make progress in changing the situation. Maybe I find something in the middle, but as of now those are the 2 options as I see it.
Wait, what?
If those are the only two options you see, then you're only allowing yourself one of those two results. Don't do that to yourself. Acknowledge that there are many options and it's up to you take make the changes to realize the goals/options you want. It can be hard to see when you're depressed and stressed but you must know that things will get better and make little efforts every day to do so. And I mean little! It's kind of like saving; a little bit here and there every day adds up to financial independence in 20 years. A little change here and there every day adds up to the exact life you want/need very quickly. And in this way, your situation is improved literally every day.
It IS good to be grateful for the job you have and realize that it could be worse but be careful comparing yourself to those who have worse jobs or no jobs as, ultimately, this comparison to others goes the other way: look at all the people with better jobs. Understand you have a job, be grateful for it, and know that it could be better either through changing the situation at this company or going to another.
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And feel free to blatantly use your kid as an excuse to work regular hours when you get back.
Totally agree! This is great option for the guy that schedules a meeting @ 5:30. "Sorry, can't make it to your totally unnecessary meeting I have to <fill in baby hijinks here>! Am I right! Anyway, talk to you tomorrow!"
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My choices could come down to being married, and having a stressful job that I hate or being a single, unemployed dad. And I need to fully embrace the possibility of the latter in order to make progress in changing the situation. Maybe I find something in the middle, but as of now those are the 2 options as I see it.
I took a stress reduction class, and found that many people have Negative Automatic Thoughts (NATs) during stress that don't serve a person well, and mine tended to be Perfectionism and All-or-None thinking.
I don't know if your All-or-None, 2-optioned thinking is a result of the severe work burnout you are feeling... ...or if it is one of your regular responses under stress. [you could google "NATs" or "CBT" (cognitive behavioral therapy) to find out more]
I personally think the work burnout is accentuating any tendency you have toward all-or-none thinking. And this may have contributed to your wife freaking out.
On the one hand, your work situation reminds me of someone's advice to toxic jobs: "When you are in a burning building, get out." On the other hand, when you get out it shouldn't be a question of "I either work at that type of job, or I don't work at all." On the THIRD hand, it might help you to read the thread about Epic FU money stories, where you can see that by having money stashed away like you do, you have more ability to negotiate/quit/alter a job than the average person:
http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/epic-fu-money-stories/
In the stress reduction class I mentioned, the leader said to me:
"You have more power than you use."
I believe the same is true with you. You have more power than you use.
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rjg, based on your description of your "shit rolls downhill/make it work/hands off" boss I am extra convinced that the positive, can-do attitude is the way to go (other than finding a more sane job elsewhere, which you're already pursuing). I will respectfully disagree with those who suggest attempting to discuss proper scope assessments with the boss, and why the management estimates are unrealistic because of internets, offshore labor, widget incompatibility, and "mobile digital platforms" (you're welcome).
I've encountered bosses like yours at least 1,000 times. Their eyes will glaze over in about 2 seconds when confronted with the realities of proper project estimating, and they'll be annoyed at the person trying to show them the truth. They don't want to hear that shit. The person that tries to tell them that is not a team player, they are a downer (in the boss's mind). Like you said, the client rules all, that kind of boss could give two f*cks about proper estimating. But the guy who is "part of the team" and is always positive about making it work (even though it won't actually work on time without killing everyone) -- promote that guy, he's like us!!
If it matters, I got promoted to the top ranks in my large organization younger than 99.75% of my colleagues at that rank (median age was around 50-55, I was 36), and it wasn't because I told my "get it done" bosses the realities of why their estimates are impossible, nor was it because I was working until midnight (I wasn't). I'm telling myself the 0.25% (which is probably one person) promoted younger than me must have been sleeping with the Director.
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rjg: I just posted to my Journal my newest "boundary learning curve" and process, plus a success. They are the second and third bold headings at: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/2014-goals-sole-provider-for-self-and-child/msg374731/#msg374731 i.e., Always more learning, but the successes really do come!
I have also been thinking about posting this: I picked up a random novel from the library. I didn't love it -just not really my version of "yum"- but it was strangely reflective of some families here. Story is set in Boston, two super high-income earners, so busy, a piece of life happens, a reassessment begins, the Mustachian questions come up, husband/wife conflict such as is sometimes reflected on this forum, etc. So, not my type of book, but I liked that this issue was explored in this story. (Even the Boston part!) It's called Left Neglected (Genova).
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rjg: I just posted to my Journal my newest "boundary learning curve" and process, plus a success. They are the second and third bold headings at: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/2014-goals-sole-provider-for-self-and-child/msg374731/#msg374731 i.e., Always more learning, but the successes really do come!
I have also been thinking about posting this: I picked up a random novel from the library. I didn't love it -just not really my version of "yum"- but it was strangely reflective of some families here. Story is set in Boston, two super high-income earners, so busy, a piece of life happens, a reassessment begins, the Mustachian questions come up, husband/wife conflict such as is sometimes reflected on this forum, etc. So, not my type of book, but I liked that this issue was explored in this story. (Even the Boston part!) It's called Left Neglected (Genova).
Heh. I was curious so I googled it. Set in "Welmont". Wellesley+Belmont.
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So I read several of the books suggested here- all very helpful. I've been back at work for a week now and despite the break, I'm miserable. Everyday I feel more and more depressed being there. I try to take lot of breaks and never work more than 8 hours, etc. One small "win" was that I was asked to do a 1 day trip this week and said that I couldn't due to family obligations. My only enjoyment comes from being a pain... I basically say no to everything and ask for a ton of clarification.
I've applied to 75 jobs so far and had about 6 interviews. Not sure how much longer I can do this though - it is torturous.
It is so hard to hear my wife talking about how she might quit her job in a month. I mean, it makes sense since the nanny gets paid what she makes but it is upsetting that I am not allowed to even speak about quitting my job. I can't stop fantasizing about "just quitting". But it is hard that no one I know (friends, family, wife) is remotely sympathetic to that idea.
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I've been back at work for a week now and despite the break, I'm miserable. Everyday I feel more and more depressed being there.
Not sure how much longer I can do this though - it is torturous.
It is so hard to hear my wife talking about how she might quit her job in a month. I mean, it makes sense since the nanny gets paid what she makes but it is upsetting that I am not allowed to even speak about quitting my job. I can't stop fantasizing about "just quitting". But it is hard that no one I know (friends, family, wife) is remotely sympathetic to that idea.
Like I said in my last post, I'm pro-gender equality. If she is allowed to talk about quitting her job, then you should be. If you aren't, then she's being sexist.
Please "just quit". You've already got interviews lined up. And frankly, a wife who doesn't prioritize the health and wellbeing of her family over the frills is astonishing. If she genuinely loves you, then she should believe in doing what's best for you and the family. If she would like to extraneous luxuries over a happy and healthy family, then perhaps you should rethink your commitment.
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So...anyone had a spouse that was so dead set against being financially independent? Or reacted this strongly to it? Any advice?
Sorry to be blunt, but get rid of the spouse.
Hard truth, but sometimes u gotta take a leap...
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I hope you leave your job.
I hope your wife chooses to support you in that decision.
No one should have to suffer, and no one should have to suffer for money when they've already worked their butts off and accumulated more than they'll ever need.
I can't imagine asking a partner to stay in a situation in which they feel miserable. (I always did the opposite. Ironically, that ended up making them feel able to stay in it and happier!)
But yeah, if you decide to leave your job, please keep that a totally separate matter from leaving your marriage. That's a totally different issue. Who knows? Maybe once you've left your job, and your wife has left hers, and you both stay home enjoying the baby, and taking turns having solo time, you will both feel so refreshed, happy, and reconnected that any other decisions come easily and mutually! Here's hoping.
lhamo recommended to me a book by Martha Beck called Expecting Adam. For me, other parts resonate (child with special needs, etc) but right now I'm thinking about the "Harvard" aspect for you. Beck talks about how she and her hubby were in the ultimate academic life, on track for extreme prosperity, etc...and then essentially walked away. It's exciting to me when people opt to save their own lives this way. If your partner doesn't care enough about your health (especially mental/emotional/psychological), you for sure have to take steps to guard it.
Still pulling for you!
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it is upsetting that I am not allowed to even speak about quitting my job.
What you say or don't say is your decision. Sure, speaking up may bring unpleasant consequences but not speaking is a choice. And you're the one making it.
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Wow, does your post bring back memories for me. I managed to stick it out for about 4 years while looking for a job.
Would I do it again? Yes and no.
1. I am thankful I kept my spouse. Lots of years and still working on communication now, but so worth it despite the job depression.
2. I would set a quit by date. Eg 6 months. Within 2 months of that date, start looking for temp employment, much lower pay even. Retail work, gas station whatever. Bare bones to tie you over. Be willing to ask extended family for help at that point if needed.
3. It was hard to get work for me while depressed about current job or thinking I needed to match current pay. You could take a night course and start a new career path, you know.
4. When you are out of work, if you have a real plan of what you want to do, excited about it, it is easier to get work. You also have some pressure to make it happen. When I was laid off it took me 2 months to get two job offers, but 4 years of looking when I was hating my current situation.
5. By all means, get some money together for this. That is partly what your 6 month goal is for. Make a special acct and quit as planned when it reaches $x. Having a shorter well defined goal will make work much easier, and you will look for every way in your life to build the acct quicker. I hate yo say this, but If your wife is not on board or you are not talking about it well, just start the fund with a pay yourself first diversion to a savings acct.
Lastly this is about your finding meaningful work, not fire. Your wife is not really listening right now, so a fire suggestion won't go over well. Your communication should be about how You simply need a plan and a bit of a break to focus on the next phase of your career, etc.
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I think you both have a way to achieve one of your goals. If your wife really wants to live in Europe I would talk to her about setting it as a goal in x months or years. I would go back to your wife and say that you have thought about her goal to live in Europe. Now would be a perfect opportunity before your kid starts school etc. Talk about where she would like to live and what she would like to do. Find out how you can achieve it and what the cost would be of living in some european country, how you would deal with visas etc. Show how you could live a life without sacrifices in country x. Plan together. It also gives your wife an idea of how it would be to live a nice life without both of you working. If you avoid most of the high cost cities as London, Zurich, Stockholm etc you can live a really nice life with 6 000 USD. You could rent out your apartment in NY to cover the cost of it. If you rent out your apartment it is not a big of change immediately like you proposed in the beginning.
If you can manage it financially now I would set it as a goal in say 6 months. It gives you time to adapt, plan and end subscriptions etc. When living the year in Europe you could also take a break from work. When you come you have hopefully adapted to another kind of lifestyle. All the cancellations of subscriptions, services etc allows you probably to skip lot of them. Every time I have lived abroad I have realized how little stuff I need to live a really nice life. When I get back to my stuff I have forgotten that I even own some of the stuff.
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To be very blunt, I think your wife is being a selfish cow and needs to be quickly disabused of the notion that she married a cash machine.
She casually drops the line that she is thinking of quitting her job in the next month or so when she knows how much you loathe your job? That's just turning the knife in your back. That's shit you do to people you don't like.
You need to find your balls soon or relegate yourself to a lifetime of being this woman's doormat.
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To be very blunt, I think your wife is being a selfish cow and needs to be quickly disabused of the notion that she married a cash machine.
She casually drops the line that she is thinking of quitting her job in the next month or so when she knows how much you loathe your job? That's just turning the knife in your back. That's shit you do to people you don't like.
You need to find your balls soon or relegate yourself to a lifetime of being this woman's doormat.
Respectfully, JiO, while I agree with the sentiment here, I don't think the name-calling is needed (read: "selfish cow"). It does sound, though, that she needs to be disabused of the idea that she married a "cash machine" (or as others called it earlier in the thread, a "paycheck with legs" - I lol'ed at those).
As others have said, a lot of this is in your head - she's not holding a gun to your face and preventing you from saying "I want to quit my job" or even holding a knife to your back and forcing you out the door to work in the morning. She's doing none of those things. She may be emotionally terrorizing you into not having the cojones to leave work, but ultimately, you're the one choosing the path of less emotional pain by going to work instead of confronting her. I'm not saying that's a wrong choice, per se, but realize that it IS a choice, and I think you'll already feel a little better about it.
Whether or not you can or should continue to make that choice [again, mollifying the missus by going to a job you detest] is another matter. Let's talk brass tacks - why in a zillion years would you spend your life with someone who knows that you are genuinely unhappy but is unwilling to discuss steps to help you get to a happier place... and for what? Money? Status? That is - pardon my French - batshit crazy.
You two are a poster child for counseling. You need marital counseling. The two of you need to see a counselor. You two should go talk to a professional. How many different ways can I write this...?
If - Heaven forbid - she is unwilling to go to a counselor with you...? WTF? Boundaries, amigo - maybe one of your boundaries will be "listen, honey, I love you and baby-child more than anything else in this world, but I will not stay at this soul-crushing job WHICH I HATE WITH THE FIERY PASSION OF A THOUSAND SUNS. You may get angry at that, and you may even divorce me on the spot... that would be your choice, and one that I would be forced to respect, but mine is that I choose not to go to Shit-show Inc. any more, and I would like to work out with you a way that we can make this happen."
I'm no pro on this but seriously boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. She's all into yours (because you let her in!!!). Good luck, amigo - I'm pulling for you, too.
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To be very blunt, I think your wife is being a selfish cow and needs to be quickly disabused of the notion that she married a cash machine.
She casually drops the line that she is thinking of quitting her job in the next month or so when she knows how much you loathe your job? That's just turning the knife in your back. That's shit you do to people you don't like.
You and I might think that, but quite possibly it is also the way to divorce, an acrimonious demand for money and limited or no time with the baby. Instead, OP needs a subtler argument in favour of gender equality and against outdated social norms which have him earning and her sitting at home with the baby.
So a better approach might be "Darling, you know how much I hate my job, you've been telling your friends and family that for months. It will kill me if I am at work knowing that you are at home with our baby. Let's both give up our jobs, live off the millions we've already earned ourselves and make our lives somewhere we can spend time with our baby and each other."
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To be very blunt, I think your wife is being a selfish cow and needs to be quickly disabused of the notion that she married a cash machine.
She casually drops the line that she is thinking of quitting her job in the next month or so when she knows how much you loathe your job? That's just turning the knife in your back. That's shit you do to people you don't like.
You and I might think that, but quite possibly it is also the way to divorce, an acrimonious demand for money and limited or no time with the baby. Instead, OP needs a subtler argument in favour of gender equality and against outdated social norms which have him earning and her sitting at home with the baby.
So a better approach might be "Darling, you know how much I hate my job, you've been telling your friends and family that for months. It will kill me if I am at work knowing that you are at home with our baby. Let's both give up our jobs, live off the millions we've already earned ourselves and make our lives somewhere we can spend time with our baby and each other."
Also, courts can attribute the salary a person could make to the person, even if not working. So if he says this, she divorces him and gets primary physical custody, she could possibly get a court to set child support high enough he'd be forced to keep working.
Thus, I'm going to agree with you that for many reasons, he should go cautiously rather than pick out the biggest grenade in his arsenal and throw it without regard to whether the flyswatter might have been better. I see a lot of repressed anger in the OP, and I'm worried the dam will suddenly burst one day if he doesn't learn to slowly defuse and talk about what bothers him (regardless of whether it upsets his wife).
OP, it is reasonable to call out your wife when she talks about quitting her job, and point out how you should improve your communication so you both are free to talk about what matters to both of you.
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PS - this is a post that compiles links that I used to make myself feel better when I HATED my job. I hope there is something helpful in there for you: http://libraryjoy.com/2013/04/21/love-your-job/
Thank you for this!
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Thanks- the support, perspectives and suggestions here, though virtual, are very helpful.
To respond to some points raised:
1. Yes, I often think about divorce. The problem is child support. The law in New York is pretty harsh. The amount is calculated according to your gross income. On top of that, if you take a lower paying job, or quit your job, they will impute the income based on what you could be making. Even in situations of joint custody, the person that earns (or earned) the higher income is considered the non custodial parent and must pay the specified amount by law (it's non negotiable even if the other person is amenable). In my case it would be atkeast 2500. There are other add ons for medical care, education, child care too. So basically there's no getting around me being a "human cash machine" for my wife. And that's not including whatever assets she'd be awarded.
2. I do think that the main priority for me should be getting out of New York, selling our place and therefore "resetting" our expenditures. If I want to stay married for now I will need to play within the bounds of what my wife finds appealing. The best option may actually be grad school in a different location- she is cool with that. Then when I'm done maybe I just really take my time to find "the right thing". That will still take many months to organize.
3. I agree that I need to "grow a pair" when it comes to arguing with my wife. Somehow she has a way of making whatever I'm suggesting seem like the craziest, stupidest, most insensitive thing ever. I tend to feel bad about even bringing up whatever it was for days afterward. She's also great at using phrases and sound bites against me months or years afterwards. I tend to forget the detaiks of the conversation soon afterwards.
I sometimes feel like I need the worlds best attorney to argue with her. When I calm down I start to feel resentful and manipulated again. As I mebtioned, our couples therapist seemed to buy into what she was saying so I'm wary of going down that path again. It doesn't help that she works in social services and can "talk the talk" with therapists. And a cbt therapist (unhelpfulky) told me that I was a wimp. When my wife feels threatened angry she is very persuasive and very good at casting blame and shame on others.
Even using her desire to quit as a pivot is tough. From a purely rational perspective, after all, it makes sense. She's the one wjth the milk, her salary barely covers the nanny, and even I agree that it seems a bit silly. The "equal rights" argument will fall on deaf ears.
4. I think I need to bolster my real life support network with support groups, supportive friends, a good therapist and a good family law attorney. You'd think these things would be easy in NYC but I find it very difficult to find times that work and find the right people. When I'm at work my feelings of worthlessness and depression grow and make it harder to take action. My "tunnel vision" seems to get worse. I second guess myself and can't seem to focus on getting things done. Even finding an al anon group is proving difficult.
From an outside perspective I realize that much of what I just wrote must sound like whining and excuses. That may be true but they seem like real obstacles to me at this point. I do know that my current approach isn't working for me. But I also think I need to tread carefully since I have more to lose in a divorce. I'm not ready to just call her bluff (if it is one).
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PS - this is a post that compiles links that I used to make myself feel better when I HATED my job. I hope there is something helpful in there for you: http://libraryjoy.com/2013/04/21/love-your-job/
Thank you for this!
You are very welcome! Those links helped me a great deal when I needed them :)
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Wow, great post, rjg! That sounded incredibly clear headed, rational, and wise. At every point. It absolutely did NOT sound whiny or like excuses. In some situations, we do have barriers/obstacles, and those are very real. Seeing them as they are is as healthy and necessary as any other step. It's what allows us (the people with the obstacles) to start generating creative solutions, or figuring out who else we need to talk to.
If grad school in another location is an option you're both happy with, I would totally take it!
I'm relieved to hear you've looked into the family law details in your region. It's critical to know what these are (preferably before marriage and then before children, but even before other major moves such as the point you're at).
An additional query I would bring to your region's legal beagles: Would stress documentation from your doctor help resolve the matter of imputed income? i.e., Can they claim the potential of income based on past ability when current ability is impacted by depression, anxiety, stress, or other issues?
It's too true that seeking help/support while we're feeling like crap is very difficult. I quoted a phrase (don't know the source, read it 20 years ago) to the local mental health team last week: "Asking a mental health consumer to use the current mental health system is like asking a quadraplegic to use stairs."
It can take a number of tries to find a therapist or group that feels truly helpful. Do you feel able to call maybe two per week (e.g., one highly rated therapist and one 12 Step contact person) until you find a good fit? Also, does your area have any sort of "RateMD" website for therapists? I find the RateMD website a godsend when I need to find a new doctor or specialist.
I'm not 100% sure that marriage counselling is particularly effective when one person has depression, fear, extreme shyness, or otherwise lacks "voice". I think support for YOU to feel calm, strong, happy within/despite your circumstances -and while interacting with your wife- may be more key.
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I used to be a lot like your wife. Born and raised in NYC, l "had" to live at a certain level (in the right neighborhood, of course), wear the best clothes, eat at the best/hottest places, etc., go on fabulous vacations that I could talk about with my "friends," and otherwise maintain a certain image, etc. It was the same for all of my friends, both male and female, but mostly female. All of this status stuff was our identity. Sad, isn't it? I was such a snob that I looked down upon people who moved to a less desirable zip code, or to Brooklyn, or, god forbid, the suburbs.
Your wife is surrounded and likely encouraged by women who are just like her, which is also working against you.
My break from this cycle came only when I realized that I wanted more out of life than a fabulous wardrobe, huge engagement ring, and the ability to brag about my zip code., and started to think - or maybe just realize - that some of my "friends" we're insane, and that all of us were pretty pathetic. All of my "friends" thought I was insane to leave my "perfect" life, but I did, after an ugly, exhausting breakup, and went home to my mother's house, penniless, and extremely grateful to be able to sleep on a twin bed in my sister's old bedroom.
Not too long after, I met my husband and one of the best decisions we ever made was to leave NYC. I'm not saying that everyone in NYC is like your wife, or that everyone there is destined to become a shallow a-hole, but in my experience, it seems that the influences there can make what you are looking for very difficult to achieve, and very tough to sell, for so many reasons.
My heart goes out to you, especially because you guys have a child. I'm so sorry that your wife doesn't realize or can't see right now that what you are offering her is truly a gift. I hope that you two can find a way to work this out.
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I just read the whole thing - whew!
Not much to add to all the good advice here. One communication idea - does your wife pay any attention at all to any pro sports? Because I see an analogy here - you are making big bucks in a short-term job (career burnout) just like pro athletes make big bucks in a short-term job (injuries, getting too old to play). Athletes are advised to develop a fall-back plan before they need it - anyone in your kind of job should too. Would this analogy help your wife understand, at the emotional level, that what you are doing is not sustainable in the long term? Because right now you are "playing injured". Your stress levels = serious groin pull. Make the plans before the blown knee equivalent.
She has her Master's degree, she is not stupid. But she does seem to have her first reaction be visceral, so maybe aiming communication at her visceral side is the way to start things? And forget the retirement side of things, go for the financial security and longer-term sustainability aspects. After all, neither of you will be doing well if you have a full-fledged nervous breakdown.
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Thanks- the support, perspectives and suggestions here, though virtual, are very helpful.
To respond to some points raised:
1. Yes, I often think about divorce. The problem is child support. The law in New York is pretty harsh. The amount is calculated according to your gross income. On top of that, if you take a lower paying job, or quit your job, they will impute the income based on what you could be making. Even in situations of joint custody, the person that earns (or earned) the higher income is considered the non custodial parent and must pay the specified amount by law (it's non negotiable even if the other person is amenable). In my case it would be atkeast 2500. There are other add ons for medical care, education, child care too. So basically there's no getting around me being a "human cash machine" for my wife. And that's not including whatever assets she'd be awarded.
2. I do think that the main priority for me should be getting out of New York, selling our place and therefore "resetting" our expenditures. If I want to stay married for now I will need to play within the bounds of what my wife finds appealing. The best option may actually be grad school in a different location- she is cool with that. Then when I'm done maybe I just really take my time to find "the right thing". That will still take many months to organize.
3. I agree that I need to "grow a pair" when it comes to arguing with my wife. Somehow she has a way of making whatever I'm suggesting seem like the craziest, stupidest, most insensitive thing ever. I tend to feel bad about even bringing up whatever it was for days afterward. She's also great at using phrases and sound bites against me months or years afterwards. I tend to forget the detaiks of the conversation soon afterwards.
I sometimes feel like I need the worlds best attorney to argue with her. When I calm down I start to feel resentful and manipulated again. As I mebtioned, our couples therapist seemed to buy into what she was saying so I'm wary of going down that path again. It doesn't help that she works in social services and can "talk the talk" with therapists. And a cbt therapist (unhelpfulky) told me that I was a wimp. When my wife feels threatened angry she is very persuasive and very good at casting blame and shame on others.
Even using her desire to quit as a pivot is tough. From a purely rational perspective, after all, it makes sense. She's the one wjth the milk, her salary barely covers the nanny, and even I agree that it seems a bit silly. The "equal rights" argument will fall on deaf ears.
4. I think I need to bolster my real life support network with support groups, supportive friends, a good therapist and a good family law attorney. You'd think these things would be easy in NYC but I find it very difficult to find times that work and find the right people. When I'm at work my feelings of worthlessness and depression grow and make it harder to take action. My "tunnel vision" seems to get worse. I second guess myself and can't seem to focus on getting things done. Even finding an al anon group is proving difficult.
From an outside perspective I realize that much of what I just wrote must sound like whining and excuses. That may be true but they seem like real obstacles to me at this point. I do know that my current approach isn't working for me. But I also think I need to tread carefully since I have more to lose in a divorce. I'm not ready to just call her bluff (if it is one).
You haven't listened to any of my advice yet, but I am going to throw more ideas out there for you.
1. move to a state with more favorable divorce laws first,
2. get "sick," and quit your job FIRST before even mentioning divorce
3. then you will be in a much better position in terms of alimony/child support, and you can fight for custody of the kiddo.
4. you may find your wife will actually be more reasonable in divorce, and she would not pursue rediculous alimony settlements, etc. Her current behavior does not predict how she would handle it, IMO.
****No guarantees with this one. hah.
You guys are already filthy rich, it makes me sick to think that you'd need continue to work to keep your wife super rich for the rest of your life divorce or not.
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Thanks scrubby fish. I agree that the current mental health system is very hard to use when you really need it. I having been down the road several times before it is really difficult to find a good therapist because:
-many good ones are already booked up or only have very odd times available
-it takes a while before you really know if it's clicking.
-some of the best don't take insurance (or don't take your particular insurance) so then you're paying 400/session and aren't even sure if it's worth it
-my desire to "retire early" probably sounds "crazy" to most therapists especially in NYC. Not to mention, there's sort of a weird dynamic where if they helped me actually get to the point where I quit my job and leave NY they lose a patient. I'm not sure how many are that altruistic. I guess I am just very skeptical of most therapists at this point.
Mint chip-
Thanks for sharing your story. The strange thing is that my wife's friends (with 1 exception) aren't the high flying shallow, "gold digger" types. They are actually all really nice, good people who don't place money or possessions as their top priority. they work in lower paying fields like theater, government and social services. I think my wife's motivation is more anxiety related (scared of "being poor",scared of the unknown, etc). My wife also has told me about how she dated finance people in the past and made a conscious decision that she didn't respect that type of work and didn't want that lifestyle (one guy had a Ferrari collection in his townhouse apparently). I think if some of her friends actually saw the way she argues with me they'd be horrified.
But to a casual observer, the idea of quitting your job when you have a newborn sounds selfish and irresponsible. So it would be very easy for her to get the idea that "my husband is crazy" reinforced by pretty much anyone. When it came up with the couples therapist he agreed with her and i couldn't really argue against it without breaking out a spreadsheet and divulging our whole financial picture- just didn't seem worth it. Most people aren't comfortable wjth math, so you end up looking like a crazy crackpot and being dismissed or resented
Retireat63-
That's exactly how I think of my job. I've tried explaining that to her and she agrees. But her response is for me to "find a better job" (in a city she likes, paying no less than I make now). There's no point in arguing about a hypothetical lower paying but more fulfilling job because I don't even know what that would be at this point. That is why I think living "within our means" while I get myself together and explore other options make sense. To her that just sounds like a rationalization to not work and a bad plan.
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One thing I've noticed some of my coworkers do at our super stressful job is to suddenly stop contributing at all or do the bare minimum... After a point, any company will fire you if you did that. Once you are fired, you can take your time to find the right job. Your wife can't blame you for being fired if you don't talk about your performance or lack of it. That might bring a change in her attitude as well about moving out of NY.
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I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.
Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)
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I know the above method sounds a bit devious but that is the best I can think of that won't antagonize your wife or the courts and still keep you married.
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One thing I've noticed some of my coworkers do at our super stressful job is to suddenly stop contributing at all or do the bare minimum... After a point, any company will fire you if you did that. Once you are fired, you can take your time to find the right job. Your wife can't blame you for being fired if you don't talk about your performance or lack of it. That might bring a change in her attitude as well about moving out of NY.
Believe me, I've thought of it. And that's basically what I'm doing by default now due to my severe lack of motivation.
However, my wife would totally blame me for getting fired. And the courts use that "imputed income" thing even in cases where the person was laid off through no fault of their own. It is a pretty crazy system we have. Basically, never have kids with someone who earns less than you.
What is even more galling is that my wife will inherit a fortune from her stepfather.
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OP, consider writing out what you have to say, and literally reading from it if need be (or giving it to your wife) so you don't forget things, stay on point, etc. This may help in your discussions with your wife. And it's ok to tell her that you have a hard time communicating things and you feel like you repress a lot of it, so that's why you're doing this.
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I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.
Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)
Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that
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Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that
Look at it this way:
Option 1) Get a divorce. Pay child support until the child is 18. This means you probably have to continue working until your child is 18.
Option 2) Don't get a divorce. Work until you die, suffer a mental breakdown, or your wife divorces you. Pay more than $2500 a month for the privilege of listening to your wife tell you that your happiness is irrelevant to her, that you're crazy and that if you make her angry, she will divorce you. P.S. Remember to smile. It makes your wife angry when you don't smile.
Option 3) Just check into the psych ward now and wait for her to go away.
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rjg, I'm going to gently encourage you to make an appointment with your physician to discuss whether it might be appropriate for you to take some form of antidepressant or anti-anxiety medication.
If you've had poor luck with counseling in the past, maybe it's time to try a more traditional medical approach. It is possible that on a low dose of medication, you might feel better able to cope with the stressors in your life.
It doesn't take the stressors away, obviously, but it might make them easier to tolerate, at least in the short term.
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Seriously, I feel for you, but I want to say, speaking from experience, that the first year you have a baby brings with it hidden stresses you could never have imagined. The first 12 months can be really tough, even as they are fantastic. Your marriage is worth working on. You'll never get this first year back with your baby. You can only change yourself. Etc.
Stop making your wife and your employer the bad guys. It's so easy to be angry at others when the anger should be directed inward. You LET yourself get in this situation.
(I say this with all good intentions, seriously!)
Change doesn't happen overnight, nor at the same pace for all people. You're in the midst of changing and creating the life you want. That should make you happy.
I think you should work hard and change your attitude toward your job. If you don't, that negativity will come through in every interview you have. It taints a person in a way they can't always see, but others can. Think long term. Think Boston. Think of the life you want 20 years down the road and look backward from there. Is this how you want to remember your baby's first year?
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Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that
Look at it this way:
Option 1) Get a divorce. Pay child support until the child is 18. This means you probably have to continue working until your child is 18.
Option 2) Don't get a divorce. Work until you die, suffer a mental breakdown, or your wife divorces you. Pay more than $2500 a month for the privilege of listening to your wife tell you that your happiness is irrelevant to her, that you're crazy and that if you make her angry, she will divorce you. P.S. Remember to smile. It makes your wife angry when you don't smile.
Option 3) Just check into the psych ward now and wait for her to go away.
Ha- this made me laugh
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Could you tell her that you would like to make a plan to discuss your finances/life goals for a half hour to an hour once a week? Say Sunday afternoons or something. At this meeting you would agree to listen to each other without automatically dismissing what the other person is saying. There would be no name-calling or belittling here. It would just be a time for learning what each other wants from finances/life and trying to come up with small changes to move toward your respective goals. I like this idea because it sort of puts her on notice that "you have not been dealing with me in a constructive/respectful manner and this is my attempt to change that". I think it also implies that you feel the two of you are a team and that you'd like to work through this as one, versus her calling all the shots. I think then it would be up to you to show her that if the two of you reigned in spending just a little, you could have a happy life, enjoying each other's company and raising your son together.
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Um, when a hockey player is seriously injured, does he get a job playing football at the pro level? Or move from the Islanders to the Bruins? No. So her saying you should find something just as good elsewhere means she has not thought it through. Think like that athlete who has 2-3 more good years - what comes next? Coaching? Something like Tim Horton's? (For those of you who don't know, Tim Horton was a hockey player.) Guy LaFleur runs a helicopter rental company. Ken Dryden has done an amazing number of things. What will your second career be?
Getting your financial house in order is always a good thing - if you need to change the terminology to make it appeal to her, do so. It sounds as if you two had the resources for a lifestyle, and now the baby has changed that lifestyle (and the finances). Starting a family changes everything, and both of you need to acknowledge that. You have started to, and so has she, but in different ways.
Really at this point, for any decisions down the road (jobs, back to school, one being a SAHP, whatever), all I can say is you need to be on the same page before either of you starts talking about any kind of change. You need to set up some nice spreadsheets, graphics, pie charts, whatever, and get her up to speed on the family finances. Not in terms of retirement, or moving, or anything, but just to see where the two of you are now. If you want to do a history, fine, or a projection, but what matters is where the money is coming in and going out now. You two cannot function as partners if you are not equally aware of your lifestyle choices and costs. And if you do not know where you are now, how can you get to someplace else?
I don't know New York family law, but it is worth checking. In Ontario, (my province in Canada) I think her inheritance money (now condo) would now be seen as a joint asset (since you two are living in it, it would be different if it were an income property), but your assets (pensions, whatever) before marriage are yours. Anything acquired during the marriage would be joint. But that is negative thinking, except for doing a financial statement. That is an interesting exercise though, it does clear up any misconceptions.
Re work, most places cut new fathers some slack, they know that you have new responsibilities and demands on your time, not to mention having more trouble getting enough sleep. Be a team player, but use the baby as an excuse to keep your workload more reasonable. Be sure when you go back (I gather that is now?) that you make sure they get you caught up on what has been happening while you were gone, don't let them push you into the deep end. And you really sound as if you could do with a lateral move out of management (as others have said).
I can understand her being resistant to change when the baby is so young, but in reality there is always change. One advantage of FI is the FU money attitude. At least then the change can be managed better.
Retireat63-
That's exactly how I think of my job. I've tried explaining that to her and she agrees. But her response is for me to "find a better job" (in a city she likes, paying no less than I make now). There's no point in arguing about a hypothetical lower paying but more fulfilling job because I don't even know what that would be at this point. That is why I think living "within our means" while I get myself together and explore other options make sense. To her that just sounds like a rationalization to not work and a bad plan.
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The OP is right about child support. If you get laid-off & can't find a job at the same level & take a lower paying job they will make your child support at the level you were previously earning. This happened to a man I know that was making half what his wife was earning. This man worked 2 jobs & had all his $ taken from both checks & had to move in with his Mom. She paid his bills. This went on for 2 years until finally he found a job at his past level of pay. They went to court but the judges -male or female did not care about the man. They even told him to go to another state to earn more $ . He had visitation and did not want to not see his kids but was told by the court the only important thing was that he should pay. I would convince her to move for graduate school & afterwards find a job you like no matter what the pay. If you divorce later you will have demonstrated a lower threshold of earning/living which may be respected by the court. I would stay married long enough to set a pattern of less $.
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The OP is right about child support. If you get laid-off & can't find a job at the same level & take a lower paying job they will make your child support at the level you were previously earning. This happened to a man I know that was making half what his wife was earning. This man worked 2 jobs & had all his $ taken from both checks & had to move in with his Mom. She paid his bills. This went on for 2 years until finally he found a job at his past level of pay. They went to court but the judges -male or female did not care about the man. They even told him to go to another state to earn more $ . He had visitation and did not want to not see his kids but was told by the court the only important thing was that he should pay. I would convince her to move for graduate school & afterwards find a job you like no matter what the pay. If you divorce later you will have demonstrated a lower threshold of earning/living which may be respected by the court. I would stay married long enough to set a pattern of less $.
Yep that's exactky the situation I'd like to avoid. That's why, to the extent possible, it makes sense to scale down as much as possible while still married. As of now the grad school idea is probably my best shot
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But do you want to go to grad school? I remember reading earlier that your wife will accept nothing short of MBA.... And those cost money and are very stressful in a top school.
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I haven't read through the whole thread, but I've been really enjoying working remotely writing software and I've noticed a lot of my co-workers have young children and enjoy being able to see them at lunch, etc. You can easily make north of 100K and live in cheap areas.
Good luck. It sounds like you're going through a really rough patch. Hang in there.
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I only read the first page + all posts by RJG.
Dude, why is divorce even on the table? Your child is still how old, 4 months? Your wife has gone through a whole slew of emotional and physical changes, and you've still recently dumped this on her. Sure, you're right about the money, but you aren't right about the approach. She really needs to understand how much you hate your job. More importantly, she needs to understand there is another route to happiness. On the other hand, you need to really understand what makes her happy, and how you can achieve it with your priorities fulfilled as well. Maybe you could go unemployed for 6 months while looking full time and taking care of the kid. At some point, not in 2014, you need to grow a pair and tell her that you hate your job and you're quitting. If she wants YOU to be happy, she should be happy with that. But you need to spend the next 4 months setting that up and showing her how awful your job is.
Lastly, stop posting all the problems to the entire world. Sure, you can get financial advice, but you're not going to get honest marital advice from a board of people who are 1) limited in knowledge of your relationship 2) focused on finances, specifically cutting spending and 3) internet police. How do you think your wife would feel about some of the things you've posted on here, especially those pertaining to divorce and her attitude (even if she has been irrational and aggressive)?
Now this is clearly all easier said than done, but that is my two cents. I don't mean to be overly critical of you, but I bet you're taking negative thoughts here and reflecting them in your arguments and fights.
For the record, I am an early 20s male posting on this topic.
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The OP is right about child support. If you get laid-off & can't find a job at the same level & take a lower paying job they will make your child support at the level you were previously earning. This happened to a man I know that was making half what his wife was earning. This man worked 2 jobs & had all his $ taken from both checks & had to move in with his Mom. She paid his bills. This went on for 2 years until finally he found a job at his past level of pay. They went to court but the judges -male or female did not care about the man. They even told him to go to another state to earn more $ . He had visitation and did not want to not see his kids but was told by the court the only important thing was that he should pay. I would convince her to move for graduate school & afterwards find a job you like no matter what the pay. If you divorce later you will have demonstrated a lower threshold of earning/living which may be respected by the court. I would stay married long enough to set a pattern of less $.
Yep that's exactky the situation I'd like to avoid. That's why, to the extent possible, it makes sense to scale down as much as possible while still married. As of now the grad school idea is probably my best shot
Okay, the thread is getting into the logically manipulative.....as others said, there is no gun to your head.
If you really want to make this happen, do the following: your spouse can not say no.
1) Register for community college classes (2) today (the term starts this week. -- make them classes that you need to attend in the daytime, that are designed to help you get better marks, or be a better GRE, or freshen up your skills for applying to grad school.
2) Take a "sabbatical" -- move to part time work, or no work for the next semester, so you can focus on these classes. Do this tomorrow - after your classes are registered, and without telling your wife. give a written letter to your employer for thier notice, effective in 2 weeks.
3) Tell your wife. Be very very excited about a specific grad school,.. how all your dreams will come true, and all the money you will make if only you were partner, but you need this specific grad school to do it, (total BS in other words. as you will use this as a transition year while you think about it). how you are stagnating at work right now without promotions because of no grad school, etc.
4) In December, Extend the sabbatical to cover you for next term, while taking another 1-2 courses of interest, and either register for grad school for starting next year, or just keep extending.
5) If you take something interesting, but don't get a great mark, well that is ok, you can always retake it... or ...book a couple of classes in EUROPE that the two of you move for a term to live over there temporarily...
Others have pointed out that a change of living condition will do wonders to your wife's perspective. It may not be in the direction you planned, but certainly a temporary move away from the NYC trap you are in for at least 3 months will be a huge value.
She may or may not buy it.
The above is definitely possible path to take, and my spouse essentially did this to me, minus the europe, trapping me into sole income earner status without FU money for many years..... but we are still married and talking, and even like each other.
....
By all means, get counselling, as you will be doing most of the above without talking to her about it, so you need a place to discuss life goals.
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I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.
Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)
Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that
My point was that you are a very very fortunate individual. There are 6 billion people on this earth who wished they were in your shoes financially. I also suggest seeing a doctor and joining a No More Mr Nice Guy support group. Lots of guys willing to discuss their own personal stories just like yours. My cousin goes and it turned his marriage around by flat out telling her "no".
I think you'd be surprised how your wife might react once she has nothing to grab onto :)
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I have read through all the posts. While you very clearly stated what you do not want (your current job), perhaps you could just as clearly come up with 3 or 4 scenarios you would truly like to try. Take time to write them out, with budgets. One could be to work 6 more months, then head to Europe, etc. Then write your wife a letter, telling her these are just some ideas. Ask her to think about them and to write her own possible scenarios. Set a time a week later to really discuss them. If I were your wife I would be worried sick. Given that you have considered divorce on this forum, I imagine she realizes you are considering it...I can't imagine a more troubling thought for a new mother. The first few months with a new child are inevitably exhausting, but they should also have a lot of joy. Be sure you are doing your part to make that happen.
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It seems like there have been more and more drastic pieces of advice later in this thread. I understand that you're unhappy, hate your job, and are having some communication issues with your wife. It all sounds very overwhelming and stressful. I feel for you. But I don't see how just getting a prescription or going behind your wife's back and forcing things on her is going to help anything. I hope you don't go that route.
Thanks for sharing your story. The strange thing is that my wife's friends (with 1 exception) aren't the high flying shallow, "gold digger" types. They are actually all really nice, good people who don't place money or possessions as their top priority. they work in lower paying fields like theater, government and social services. I think my wife's motivation is more anxiety related (scared of "being poor",scared of the unknown, etc). My wife also has told me about how she dated finance people in the past and made a conscious decision that she didn't respect that type of work and didn't want that lifestyle (one guy had a Ferrari collection in his townhouse apparently).
From your comment here, it sounds like your wife isn't necessarily a super materialistic type or with those type of friends influencing her a lot. Not only that but she's "scared of being poor, scared of the unknown". I think you should try to think of these things from her perspective. (And no, I'm not taking her side, but trying to figure out why she is acting/saying the things she is. This will help you figure out a good way of handling the situation.) She just had a baby and could still be having crazy hormone issues. She needs a husband to be there for her and listen to her feelings and goals too. If she doesn't understand your financial situation is as good as it is, the thought of hubby quitting completely could be quite frightening. She has a baby to care for now! (her brain is probably screaming at her)
Since she is open to you going back to school and not bringing in the big bucks for awhile, maybe she is just worried that when you talk about retiring, you're wanting to be a lazy, unproductive husband. (Which doesn't sound like the case.) Still, an unattractive and scary thought for a new mom.
You also said she wants to move to Europe some day.
I think you should just have some open dialogue. Not talk retirement, per se. Just goals. A "what do you want out of life" type of discussion. You may have some commonality here you don't realize. Make sure she really understands your financial situation and what that means, if she doesn't already. What would you like to do if you quit work right now? Producing/ contributing/ working towards what? I think if she sees you will still be the go-getter and provider (if need be) that she knows and loves, she will feel a lot better about the situation.
Hire a sitter and go on a date. I'm sure you're both overwhelmed with a new baby. Stick together and work on helping each other instead of trying to be the one who's "right" or picking the other one apart. Be aware of what sets her off and make a point to try to avoid that language. No ultimatums, no telling her she can't do something. That only makes people want to push even harder the other way.
Hang in there. You can do this. Marriage is work, but having a loving wife and beautiful new baby to raise together sounds pretty wonderful, and worth the effort. Make steps to improve your (and her) happiness. Think in "we" terms, not "I". I wish you luck and hope that you two can figure out how to work together so you both can be happy. You can do it!
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It seems like there have been more and more drastic pieces of advice later in this thread.
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/f9/f9c4570f4ab86617999757c6bdeb33e6d4fcc6de6fc0fd5d461e1e7c6ea6919f.jpg)
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OP, Peach Fuzz is right. Re-read that post.
Now, I don't do face punches (too hard on the knuckles) but I am going to give you a whup upside the head.
From the financial side, your wife has put her inheritance into housing that is now probably community property, so she has made a huge financial commitment to your marriage. You are putting all the emphasis on your financial contributions and not hers. You mentioned that she will probably have a big inheritance down the line - if I were whoever will be giving her the money, I would be putting one of those "spouse cannot benefit" clauses in my will.
As well, you hate your job, OK. Every job has its downsides, but you are being paid very well. You need to start thinking about what you *would* like to do, not what you don't like to do. Positive, not negative. No Moaning Myrtles anymore, no whinging.
You don't want to be in New York? Think of why she does. Is it city living? Does she have close family or long-time friends there? Would she have difficulty finding a job she likes equally well if you moved? Is she slow to make new friends (i.e. an introvert) and a move would be hard that way? I am seeing so much more negative than positive given about her, but you are married with a baby, there must be more positives in the relationship than you are telling us about.
Take things slow, try to get better balance at work, start discussing things with her - you are a team, start acting like its a partnership instead of two people yoked together going in different directions. Maybe stop moaning online and start being serious with her instead?
Those who keep talking divorce, you also get a whup upside the head - you are way ahead of yourselves. These people have a three month old baby - they are adjusting to a new baby, a new relationship between the two of them, a re-evaluation of priorities, and who knows what else that has not been discussed here.
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Peach Fuzz makes some good points if you want to be married. Presumably, you thought it was a good idea at some point. The two of you chose to have a baby so there was probably some optimism about the relationship. Given that you say you can't stand to look at your wife and think of divorce often that may no longer be the case.
Do you really want to stay in it only for financial reasons? Child support in NY State the non-custodial parent generally pays 17% of adjusted gross income as child support for one child and half of necessities. There seems to be a lot of negative feeling about child support from many posters in this thread, but parents are responsible for the lives they bring into the world whether they choose to stay together or not. Kids can cost a bit either way.
If you don't want to be married, it doesn't seem to be the end of the world to divide savings (which your wife contributed to considerably) and move on. Staying for money only doesn't seem a sound move. After all, there's no guarantee either of you aren't going to call things off further down the line.
What do you really want, money aside?
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I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.
Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)
Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that
My point was that you are a very very fortunate individual. There are 6 billion people on this earth who wished they were in your shoes financially. I also suggest seeing a doctor and joining a No More Mr Nice Guy support group. Lots of guys willing to discuss their own personal stories just like yours. My cousin goes and it turned his marriage around by flat out telling her "no".
I think you'd be surprised how your wife might react once she has nothing to grab onto :)
I read the book and would love to go to a group. Strangely there are none in New York!
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I'm not going to promote the idea of divorce to you OP but if you go down that path and she takes half and youre stuck with child payments, you will have more financial security then I will ever hope for and probably more then 80% of folks on this site.
Put that in your MMM pipe and smoke it :)
Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that
My point was that you are a very very fortunate individual. There are 6 billion people on this earth who wished they were in your shoes financially. I also suggest seeing a doctor and joining a No More Mr Nice Guy support group. Lots of guys willing to discuss their own personal stories just like yours. My cousin goes and it turned his marriage around by flat out telling her "no".
I think you'd be surprised how your wife might react once she has nothing to grab onto :)
I read the book and would love to go to a group. Strangely there are none in New York!
Not according to their site :)
http://www.meetup.com/NMMNG-NYC/
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Keep reading the other books too, I recommended codependent no more and feeling good. I've been working on boundaries for ten years with my family and it is still tough. Know that all this takes awhile to learn. check out this thread: http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/reader-case-study-convince-so-that-i-can-fire-(with-or-without-her)
I also try not to argue with people anymore, it's always a losing battle. It's better to prevent the he-saids, she-saids in the first place. If you are going over arguments in your head, you are not strong enough to defend yourself yet.
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llamo, thank you for sharing your kind and wise thoughts.
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Lhamo- thanks for sharing. It does sound like you and I are similar in many ways. I have also struggled with anxiety my whole life.
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But do you want to go to grad school? I remember reading earlier that your wife will accept nothing short of MBA.... And those cost money and are very stressful in a top school.
You are right - I am not very excited about it honestly. There is maybe 1 particular career path that getting an MBA could facilitate but it's a very long shot. And the 1 year programs at the top schools are indeed very intense. Given that I can barely remember what happened yesterday I'm not sure if I have the capacity for it right now. Otoh, almost anything sounds better to me right now than my current job.
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Hmmm- 4% of 1 million yields 40k/ year or 3300/month. After 2500 in support that's $800/month (and that's before taxes, healthcare, etc). From what I've seen, the people who fire here are way better off than that
Look at it this way:
Option 1) Get a divorce. Pay child support until the child is 18. This means you probably have to continue working until your child is 18.
Option 2) Don't get a divorce. Work until you die, suffer a mental breakdown, or your wife divorces you. Pay more than $2500 a month for the privilege of listening to your wife tell you that your happiness is irrelevant to her, that you're crazy and that if you make her angry, she will divorce you. P.S. Remember to smile. It makes your wife angry when you don't smile.
Option 3) Just check into the psych ward now and wait for her to go away.
You forgot Option 4) take a small chunk of that fortune and pay it to someone who can make her disappear, you know what I'm sayin'?
Okay, that was tongue in cheek, but it happens all the time!
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Another update - I just put in a request to transfer to our west coast office. It would still be the same job but atkeast I'd have an excuse to sell our place, get a new boss and a change of scenery. I have always wanted to live in California.
It's certainly far down my list of appealing options, but it still sounds better than staying in my current situation potentially.
As I see it, my options are (in no particular order)
1. Stay in my current situation and try to work on being calm and centered. Go to support groups and try to find a decent therapist
2. Hire a lawyer. Quit now and possibly get divorced over it. Go "super mmm" and live off maybe 1k/month after child support, asset division, etc
3. If they accept it, transfer to the west coast. Use that as a way to atkeast have more liquid assets and possibly lower our expenditures in a way that is more in line with FI. Perhaps the more laid back California attitude will rub off on me and my wife.
4. Stay in my current position till march, take a few months off then start an MBA program in another city or country (assuming I get in). Use this as an excuse to cut our expenses. After the MBA attempt to go after this 1 career path and if that fails really take my time to find something acceptable.
5. Get another job outside the agency world. Perhaps it will be a better fit.
Currently I have irons in the fire for options 1,3,4,5. Makes me feel a little better to think in terms of options even if none of them seem great yet
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Another update - I just put in a request to transfer to our west coast office. It would still be the same job but atkeast I'd have an excuse to sell our place, get a new boss and a change of scenery. I have always wanted to live in California.
It's certainly far down my list of appealing options, but it still sounds better than staying in my current situation potentially.
Does your wife know this? Is she amenable to West Coast living? It is VERY different from east coast living, and esp. NYC living.
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Another update - I just put in a request to transfer to our west coast office. It would still be the same job but atkeast I'd have an excuse to sell our place, get a new boss and a change of scenery. I have always wanted to live in California.
It's certainly far down my list of appealing options, but it still sounds better than staying in my current situation potentially.
Does your wife know this? Is she amenable to West Coast living? It is VERY different from east coast living, and esp. NYC living.
Yes she is amenable
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I hope your west coast office isn't in San Jose or San Francisco; I recently heard we surpassed NYC in housing costs!
I think no matter what, #1 (support/therapy) is imperative. The west coast move would brighten you up for a bit but once the novelty wears off, you're still doing the same job and it will be difficult to deal with. But, sunny California is very pleasant. =)
It's good you're feeling better about having options; acknowledging that you DO have options is monumental in feeling less trapped!
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I hope your west coast office isn't in San Jose or San Francisco; I recently heard we surpassed NYC in housing costs!
I think no matter what, #1 (support/therapy) is imperative. The west coast move would brighten you up for a bit but once the novelty wears off, you're still doing the same job and it will be difficult to deal with. But, sunny California is very pleasant. =)
It's good you're feeling better about having options; acknowledging that you DO have options is monumental in feeling less trapped!
LA actually. Yeah I agree with your assessment but another benefit is an impetus for us to sell our apartment in NYC. That unlocks equity and just sets the stage for greater flexibility.
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Lhamo, thank you for your post - I thought things were getting too emotional/panicky on here, and you have given a wonderful explanation of why, and new way of looking at things.
Rjg, you have gone from basically despair to looking at a variety of options - this is major. The change in cities, the change in living arrangements, the change in day-length (sun!) will all have their effects, if you do the transfer. The move would also give you wife the chance to really think about her short-term future - would she prefer to be a SAHM or find a job she really likes in LA.
If not, is there any possibility of a lateral transfer that will get you out of management? Some people love management and some people hate it. In my old (Science) Department, we didn't fight over who would be Department Chair, we fought to get out of being Department Chair - as we joked, if we had wanted to go into management, we would not have been in Science. The Chair ended up being whoever could tolerate the BS the best, and we rotated in and out really fast. Our "elections" were all by acclamation, for who ever got railroaded that year. You are a science type, you may have already reached your management BS limit.
IMHO you are not a good candidate for Grad school at the moment, you don't have the focus or desire, and that means it would not be a good experience for you. If you like the idea of going back to school, wait until you are more focused (stress makes it hard to study) and go back to something you are really interested in. Leave the MBA for those who want it. I say this as someone who taught Community College and University, and wondered why some of my students were there - they had no interest, they were just going through the motions, and they were paying the school to do this.
All the best.
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If you FIRE now with the fortune you have and she goes ahead with divorced proceedings regardless she doesn't love you to begin with.....something to think about ?
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If you FIRE now with the fortune you have and she goes ahead with divorced proceedings regardless she doesn't love you to begin with.....something to think about ?
This really doesn't make sense to me. Please explain.
For the record, I believe you can divorce someone you love, if you believe you can't live with them (because you want too different of lives - such as whether to have kids, or even whether to retire early and live on less). But I still don't understand your point, even if we disagree on this one.
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If you FIRE now with the fortune you have and she goes ahead with divorced proceedings regardless she doesn't love you to begin with.....something to think about ?
It might mean that she thinks he doesn't love her. It might mean that she thinks he wants to divorce her in a few years and is trying to set an income precedent (as suggested by another poster). It might mean they just treat each-other like garbage, in a non-loving way. I think the fact that we equate "falling in love" with marriage and "falling out of love" with divorce has contributed greatly to the decline in our overall culture.
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Yeah, I'm really disturbed by all the "divorce the bitch" type comments. Calm down! Every explanation on here is from rjg's perspective. Am I the only one who thinks that some of the childishness is on his part? "Wah, I sprung a huge change in everything on the wifey during what's already a time of emotional crisis for women and couples, when she's sleep-deprived and hormonal, and she doesn't like it! Wah!" Sorry, rjg, but if you're considering divorce in this situation at all, it's at least half your fault and you should own up to it like an adult. Yes, your job sucks. I really do get it. I started the "terrible bosses" thread, after all, and dealt with a situation that was bad enough my husband even now asks why I didn't poop on my old manager's desk as I left. (Seriously.) But you are the one who's complaining to strangers on the internet rather than having constructive conversations with your wife. You've said that you understand some of the reasons she feels the way she does but you don't seem to be taking her feelings seriously because it's getting in the way of what you want right this second. Life changes should take time, and for very good reason. When they don't take time we consider them traumatic. Springing a complete 180 of lifestyle and expectations on your wife within months of having a baby is a pretty shitty thing to do. Some people have said of your wife's behavior that "that's not what you do to someone you love". Well, neither is your behavior. I love my husband, and the thought of divorce is so painful that no matter how upset with him I am, I would never entertain thoughts of actually seeking out a lawyer.
If you really, desperately want a change, you need to find the courage to explain that to your wife in a way that makes her really understand that you want to do this together. You want to do this so that she is comfortable as well. Because that's what you do with your partner for life. Is it going to be perfect and exactly what you want? No. It never is. You've tied your life with someone else's, so you need to compromise just as much as she does. Nothing you've written here makes me think that she's not open to some compromises, or that she's simply materialistic, vain, and bitchy as some (mostly male) posters have characterized her. Does she fight horribly? Most likely. Does that make her a terrible person? Probably not. It might be up to you to learn to speak her language to make these changes palatable to her, and it will take time. Feel free to tell her that she's made you feel like nothing but a--what was it, "ATM with legs"? But do so in the nicest way possible. Don't start a fight to say it. If you need to write it in a letter to get all your thoughts out properly, that really can help. When my husband and I are so mad that we can barely speak to each other, that's what we do. We keep a Word file open and write back and forth. Eventually, we get to the point where we can speak calmly and have a dialogue rather than a fight. The best part is, now that we're parents the baby never hears us shouting at each other. (And even though she's too young to understand, we never, ever say anything to her about our arguments or against the other parent. No "daddy's being an asshole" comments that some people will do when they're mad at their spouse.)
Calm down and shelve the divorce thoughts. I can assure you, she probably realizes you're having them and it's not making her feel any more secure or any more amenable to what you're proposing.
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Calm down and shelve the divorce thoughts. I can assure you, she probably realizes you're having them and it's not making her feel any more secure or any more amenable to what you're proposing.
in all fairness, from the OP sounded like *she* was the one who brought up divorce when he brought up the idea of FIRE.
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Yeah, I'm really disturbed by all the "divorce the bitch" type comments. Calm down! Every explanation on here is from rjg's perspective. Am I the only one who thinks that some of the childishness is on his part? "Wah, I sprung a huge change in everything on the wifey during what's already a time of emotional crisis for women and couples, when she's sleep-deprived and hormonal, and she doesn't like it! Wah!" Sorry, rjg, but if you're considering divorce in this situation at all, it's at least half your fault and you should own up to it like an adult. Yes, your job sucks. I really do get it. I started the "terrible bosses" thread, after all, and dealt with a situation that was bad enough my husband even now asks why I didn't poop on my old manager's desk as I left. (Seriously.) But you are the one who's complaining to strangers on the internet rather than having constructive conversations with your wife. You've said that you understand some of the reasons she feels the way she does but you don't seem to be taking her feelings seriously because it's getting in the way of what you want right this second. Life changes should take time, and for very good reason. When they don't take time we consider them traumatic. Springing a complete 180 of lifestyle and expectations on your wife within months of having a baby is a pretty shitty thing to do. Some people have said of your wife's behavior that "that's not what you do to someone you love". Well, neither is your behavior. I love my husband, and the thought of divorce is so painful that no matter how upset with him I am, I would never entertain thoughts of actually seeking out a lawyer.
If you really, desperately want a change, you need to find the courage to explain that to your wife in a way that makes her really understand that you want to do this together. You want to do this so that she is comfortable as well. Because that's what you do with your partner for life. Is it going to be perfect and exactly what you want? No. It never is. You've tied your life with someone else's, so you need to compromise just as much as she does. Nothing you've written here makes me think that she's not open to some compromises, or that she's simply materialistic, vain, and bitchy as some (mostly male) posters have characterized her. Does she fight horribly? Most likely. Does that make her a terrible person? Probably not. It might be up to you to learn to speak her language to make these changes palatable to her, and it will take time. Feel free to tell her that she's made you feel like nothing but a--what was it, "ATM with legs"? But do so in the nicest way possible. Don't start a fight to say it. If you need to write it in a letter to get all your thoughts out properly, that really can help. When my husband and I are so mad that we can barely speak to each other, that's what we do. We keep a Word file open and write back and forth. Eventually, we get to the point where we can speak calmly and have a dialogue rather than a fight. The best part is, now that we're parents the baby never hears us shouting at each other. (And even though she's too young to understand, we never, ever say anything to her about our arguments or against the other parent. No "daddy's being an asshole" comments that some people will do when they're mad at their spouse.)
Calm down and shelve the divorce thoughts. I can assure you, she probably realizes you're having them and it's not making her feel any more secure or any more amenable to what you're proposing.
I hear what you're saying but she brought up the divorce idea. That is why I entertained hiring a lawyer to atkeast prepare if that could be a potential outcome.
I agree there is a way and a time to talk to her constructively about it. And as you and others pointed out, it's not now. For now I'm working on other options (that she is ok with) that may put us on a better path - at the same time it might be prudent for me to plan for worst case scenarios (divorce).
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One thing to consider, I think, is that you're living on a clock right now. You have a kid. There's a strong impetus to lay down some roots somewhere before that kid enters Kindergarten. So you have about 4-5 years to wind up where you want to be. If you want to have been living there for a year or two (to be sure --a margin of safety) then you don't really have a lot of time to get yourself where you want to be.
Net-net: I'd suggest that if you want to be in Europe in ten years, then you ought to be looking to try out Europe now. I also suspect that if you want a culture to rub off on your wife, you're better off somewhere on the Continent than in L.A. (of all the places on the West Coast.) And maybe you'd find the work culture less toxic there as well.
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The D word - yes she said it in the heat of the moment - maybe to get you to take her response seriously? To me she sounds generally pretty committed - she just had your baby, she put her money into the condo. If you said you went ballistic, should I be checking your trajectory? We all use hyperbole.
What Msilenus said - good point, is LA an improvement over NYC? And since your wife has strong concerns about education (and she has the background), can she get a job someplace where she would like to see your son be in school? If she wants European style without leaving North America, you guys could move to Montreal and enroll your son in French immersion $7/day daycare. High taxes but low COL, and great food.
Apart from all the life style changes, you two really do need to sit down at some point and do a financial overview. Not in anticipation of divorce, but to see where you are. You did say she is insecure about being financially stable, so she really needs to see it all laid out in one picture. If you are suddenly going all frugal on her, she may be thinking the two of you are in financial trouble, not that you want to make a good financial situation even better. If she doesn't know the whole picture, how can she judge? So it is up to YOU to pull all the information together and make a presentation that will knock her socks off (oh, there is that hyperbole again, she is allowed to keep them on) - you are an IT guy, after all,you can do it.
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Yeah, I'm really disturbed by all the "divorce the bitch" type comments. Calm down! Every explanation on here is from rjg's perspective. Am I the only one who thinks that some of the childishness is on his part? "Wah, I sprung a huge change in everything on the wifey during what's already a time of emotional crisis for women and couples, when she's sleep-deprived and hormonal, and she doesn't like it! Wah!" Sorry, rjg, but if you're considering divorce in this situation at all, it's at least half your fault and you should own up to it like an adult. Yes, your job sucks. I really do get it. I started the "terrible bosses" thread, after all, and dealt with a situation that was bad enough my husband even now asks why I didn't poop on my old manager's desk as I left. (Seriously.) But you are the one who's complaining to strangers on the internet rather than having constructive conversations with your wife. You've said that you understand some of the reasons she feels the way she does but you don't seem to be taking her feelings seriously because it's getting in the way of what you want right this second. Life changes should take time, and for very good reason. When they don't take time we consider them traumatic. Springing a complete 180 of lifestyle and expectations on your wife within months of having a baby is a pretty shitty thing to do. Some people have said of your wife's behavior that "that's not what you do to someone you love". Well, neither is your behavior. I love my husband, and the thought of divorce is so painful that no matter how upset with him I am, I would never entertain thoughts of actually seeking out a lawyer.
If you really, desperately want a change, you need to find the courage to explain that to your wife in a way that makes her really understand that you want to do this together. You want to do this so that she is comfortable as well. Because that's what you do with your partner for life. Is it going to be perfect and exactly what you want? No. It never is. You've tied your life with someone else's, so you need to compromise just as much as she does. Nothing you've written here makes me think that she's not open to some compromises, or that she's simply materialistic, vain, and bitchy as some (mostly male) posters have characterized her. Does she fight horribly? Most likely. Does that make her a terrible person? Probably not. It might be up to you to learn to speak her language to make these changes palatable to her, and it will take time. Feel free to tell her that she's made you feel like nothing but a--what was it, "ATM with legs"? But do so in the nicest way possible. Don't start a fight to say it. If you need to write it in a letter to get all your thoughts out properly, that really can help. When my husband and I are so mad that we can barely speak to each other, that's what we do. We keep a Word file open and write back and forth. Eventually, we get to the point where we can speak calmly and have a dialogue rather than a fight. The best part is, now that we're parents the baby never hears us shouting at each other. (And even though she's too young to understand, we never, ever say anything to her about our arguments or against the other parent. No "daddy's being an asshole" comments that some people will do when they're mad at their spouse.)
Calm down and shelve the divorce thoughts. I can assure you, she probably realizes you're having them and it's not making her feel any more secure or any more amenable to what you're proposing.
I hear what you're saying but she brought up the divorce idea. That is why I entertained hiring a lawyer to atkeast prepare if that could be a potential outcome.
I agree there is a way and a time to talk to her constructively about it. And as you and others pointed out, it's not now. For now I'm working on other options (that she is ok with) that may put us on a better path - at the same time it might be prudent for me to plan for worst case scenarios (divorce).
Yes, she brought up divorce first. But it sounds to me more like she did it from fear than from any motive of actually wanting to get divorced. Has she brought it up since? Has she talked about it as an actual possibility, or was she just throwing it out there to hurt you? If it was the last (which I'm betting it was) then it wasn't because she actually wants to get divorced, it was because she was afraid and hurt and vulnerable and wanted to make you feel the same way. It's a horrible thing to do, yes, but it was done in response to your actions so you bear some responsibility. You're getting a lawyer to protect yourself and that seems prudent to you. But, has she been talking to a lawyer? She's brought significant assets to your marriage and she has a lot to lose--being a single mom has never yet been described as easy. If she hasn't brought up divorce since then, hasn't made any moves toward it, then you're probably jumping the gun and, arguably, making the situation worse. Because now it's in the back of your mind, "Well if she doesn't do what I want then I can just divorce her." Yeah, you know it wouldn't be quick or easy, but you've still got that escape plan fermenting back there. That is really no way to be part of a marriage. There are definitely good reasons to get divorced, but "I hate my job" isn't really one of them, and that is the root problem here. You were fine with the way things were until you had the kid and realized how crappy your job was, right? So the problem isn't really with your wife (although you two definitely need to work on your fighting techniques and communication skills), it's with your job. Put more effort into the job situation (which I commend you for looking into alternatives for) than into the divorce aspect.
Of the people who are recommending divorce, how many of them are married? Have ever been married and are now divorced? How many have kids? Young kids or babies? Do they truly understand the ramifications of what they're suggesting? It's no skin off their backs if you become just another statistic and get divorced. After all, it's not their financial and emotional explosion that they're proposing. They're jumping to an extreme means of getting what you want because it doesn't really matter to them what you do. They're just strangers on the internet, giving out "advice". But for you, it's everything. FIRE without your wife and only getting to see your kid part of the time...is that really what you want? I doubt it. So back off on the lawyer until you really get some indication that your wife is truly thinking divorce. Throwing it out once in a fight doesn't really count. If it becomes a pattern or a possibility that she starts holding over you, then talk to the lawyer. Until then, you need to work on thinking like a team.
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I only read the first page + all posts by RJG.
Dude, why is divorce even on the table? Your child is still how old, 4 months? Your wife has gone through a whole slew of emotional and physical changes, and you've still recently dumped this on her. Sure, you're right about the money, but you aren't right about the approach. She really needs to understand how much you hate your job. More importantly, she needs to understand there is another route to happiness. On the other hand, you need to really understand what makes her happy, and how you can achieve it with your priorities fulfilled as well. Maybe you could go unemployed for 6 months while looking full time and taking care of the kid. At some point, not in 2014, you need to grow a pair and tell her that you hate your job and you're quitting. If she wants YOU to be happy, she should be happy with that. But you need to spend the next 4 months setting that up and showing her how awful your job is.
Lastly, stop posting all the problems to the entire world. Sure, you can get financial advice, but you're not going to get honest marital advice from a board of people who are 1) limited in knowledge of your relationship 2) focused on finances, specifically cutting spending and 3) internet police. How do you think your wife would feel about some of the things you've posted on here, especially those pertaining to divorce and her attitude (even if she has been irrational and aggressive)?
Now this is clearly all easier said than done, but that is my two cents. I don't mean to be overly critical of you, but I bet you're taking negative thoughts here and reflecting them in your arguments and fights.
For the record, I am an early 20s male posting on this topic.
+1. Very good advice.
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Do you want to stay married to this woman? Forget, for a moment, the financial aspect of divorce. Do you want her to continue to be your daily partner in life? You mention that you thought about divorce, then dismissed it due to cost. If you don't want to be married, that seems a bit silly to me.
You are willing to leave a job you hate, despite the financial consequences. Why are you less willing to leave a marriage you don't like (if that's the case), despite those financial consequences? Maybe it means you have to keep working for another few years. But it would at least give you an end in sight. And it would get you away from a partnership that no longer works for you.
If you love her and want to be married to her, stay in the marriage for that reason. But if it's the finances that are keeping you there, that's no different than staying in a job due to the finances. You can make it work by taking a lower paying job to supplement the numbers you've come up with for post-divorce. If wouldn't be full retirement, but it would be better than where you are now, which is in a job you hate and with a spouse you don't want to be with (if that's the case).
Regardless, I'd encourage to give all of it a bit more time, unless you were unhappy in the marriage long before now. But staying married due to money is no more logical or necessary than staying for the money in that job you hate.
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I'd like to point out three things from the viewpoint of a wife was not supportive right away when my husband came to me with the idea of retiring asap because he hated his job.
1) When my husband came to me and wanted to save up as fast as possible to retire early because he hated not only his individual job, but also any and all possible jobs in his career path, my first and overwhelming impression towards his plans were that they were unreliable. I felt that he was now proving himself to have been unreliable in his past plans, career choices and goals. A quick 180 change in all of your previously expressed goals and values over the course of a whole lifetime may brand you as an unreliable partner in her mind and it will make it difficult for her to 100% believe in your new goals and values because you've shown yourself able to very quickly reject previous ones.
2) Planning to retire immediately or otherwise drastically change the life that you fully participated in building for all the years that you've been married previous to the last is not moderate course of action and can seem like a knee jerk extreme reaction. In my situation, I know that my husband is not a moderate man and that his immoderate actions sometime don't work out long term. For example, he tends to diet in a very extreme way, fall off the wagon, eat poorly, then start the cycle over again. This has not been sustainable for him in either exercise or diet and led to me feel that an immoderate course of action regarding finances would not be sustainable either. Is this something that your wife may be thinking?
3) This last item is more for commentators and not so much the OP. I vaguely remember that the OP had stated that his wife is not comfortable with the stock market. Please take that info into account when gauging her comfort level and reaction to a potential 4% WR. (Edited to take out the S per following comment)
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3) This last item is more for commentators and not so much the OP. I vaguely remember that the OP had stated that his wife is not comfortable with the stock market. Please take that info into account when gauging her comfort level and reaction to a potential 4% SWR.
Just a pet peeve of mine on this board. There is no such thing as a 4% SWR. That's a WR. Nothing S about it.
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I'd like to point out three things from the viewpoint of a wife was not supportive right away when my husband came to me with the idea of retiring asap because he hated his job.
1) When my husband came to me and wanted to save up as fast as possible to retire early because he hated not only his individual job, but also any and all possible jobs in his career path, my first and overwhelming impression towards his plans were that they were unreliable. I felt that he was now proving himself to have been unreliable in his past plans, career choices and goals. A quick 180 change in all of your previously expressed goals and values over the course of a whole lifetime may brand you as an unreliable partner in her mind and it will make it difficult for her to 100% believe in your new goals and values because you've shown yourself able to very quickly reject previous ones.
2) Planning to retire immediately or otherwise drastically change the life that you fully participated in building for all the years that you've been married previous to the last is not moderate course of action and can seem like a knee jerk extreme reaction. In my situation, I know that my husband is not a moderate man and that his immoderate actions sometime don't work out long term. For example, he tends to diet in a very extreme way, fall off the wagon, eat poorly, then start the cycle over again. This has not been sustainable for him in either exercise or diet and led to me feel that an immoderate course of action regarding finances would not be sustainable either. Is this something that your wife may be thinking?
3) This last item is more for commentators and not so much the OP. I vaguely remember that the OP had stated that his wife is not comfortable with the stock market. Please take that info into account when gauging her comfort level and reaction to a potential 4% WR. (Edited to take out the S per following comment)
All great points.
What made you change your mind? Or did you?
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Hi RJG. First I'd like to say that I wish you and your family all the best. It sounds like both you and your wife are both great parents who love your kid tremendously and are doing your best to figure out a path for your future in a time of tremendous change.
I have changed my mind. It is frankly hilarious to my husband that I've been hanging out here at the mmm website and forum.
Three things have helped me get on board with his plan to FIRE.
1) He figured out a way to achieve his plan that was less extreme and more moderate; including some spending money for things I valued. We didn't even always spend it all but it helped me to feel that my current happiness wasn't being held hostage to his future happiness.
2) He explained the concept more in terms of FU money and less in terms of FIRE. FIRE brought up a whole slew of worries that honestly I still sometimes feel ... will he be happy not working when he's been unhappy and unproductive in past times of unemployment? What will my workaholic husband be -aholic to without work? The idea of FU money said that he was unhappy and was going to explore other options and wanted to be able to take advantage of them. FIRE asap said that he was unhappy and that he knew what was going to make him happy and that it was definitely not working anymore.
3) He started taking steps to address the things that he hated in his job. A turning point was definitely when he took some of our spending money and used it to work less, allowing him to develop interests that he enjoys. This showed me that he was serious about building a life for himself instead of just reflexively burning down the life that he had.
Please understand that your plan ends with FIRE/not going to job anymore but that her view of things ends with you being happy and productive. There is a big gap between FIRE and happy/productive and your current plan is not addressing that gap. It will be hard for her to be willing to make significant changes and sacrifices if she sees your plan as an underpants gnome type of plan.
step 1. gather underpants
step 2. ????
step 3. PROFIT
is comparable in the mind of someone not focused on money to
step 1. Quit job
step 2. ???
step 3. HAPPINESS
It sounds like you guys are a good candidate for building a real estate empire. She may not trust the stock market and that may be a cultural issue... but cultures that generally distrust the stock market for good reason tend to be very big on real estate. It sounds like she might be supportive of savings (downgrading?) for the purpose of building real estate cash flow. Once that cash flow is reliable you may be able to slide right into managing your holding full time and there you go.
I'm pregnant right now so I'm sympathetic to any hormonal changes that may still be affecting your wife. I describe it as having drunk person emotions all the time. I would encourage you to take it slow with her and to first and foremost rebuild her idea of you as someone she can rely on over time and who she can believe if you say you want or don't want something without worrying that that may change based on your immediate situation. Her drunk emotions are taxed enough trying to figure out what she wants without the added stress of also wondering you want.
I would also like to encourage you to do some of the emotional work of figuring out what you want before insisting on retiring. It was worrying to me when my husband used the idea of "not enough money" to delay figuring out what he enjoys. I was much more comfortable with the idea that he will successfully build a life that he enjoys (and that it won't involve any other big surprise changes like running away to be a monk) when I saw him taking steps to do so within the life that we had already built.
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I thought of one last thing.
4) Quality of plan matters. I became a lot more comfortable with the idea of FIRE when my husband shared specific details of how the money would work. The first step was his explaining that we weren't just going to sell random stocks or assets whenever we needed things but that his plan was for us to have dividend stocks that would create a steady income stream. The part that made me really comfortable with it was when he showed me his ideal portfolio of dividend stocks with %s of what he had already been able to pick up. This showed me that he had a real plan that was well thought out, well researched and something that I could go and validate on my own.
Good Luck!
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I just wanted to add...
You have ONE life, and YOU have to be happy. Now, it does sound like you could have had more tact when you brought this up to your wife, but she seems extremely image conscious and unwilling to compromise. Your first priority should now be your child, but let me tell you this, cuz it's the God's honest truth...your kid will be much better off having a happy, loving father, even if divorced, instead of having a miserable, lifeless father, who hates his job, commute, city and where his marriage has brought him. I've seen way too many of these types of guys, and it's not only a pathetic site, but it's also a detriment to their children.
If you and your wife can in no way come to some kind of compromise, and you are going to continue being miserable solely for the purpose of fueling your wife's "American dream", then you have some thinking to do.
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I just wanted to add...
You have ONE life, and YOU have to be happy. Now, it does sound like you could have had more tact when you brought this up to your wife, but she seems extremely image conscious and unwilling to compromise. Your first priority should now be your child, but let me tell you this, cuz it's the God's honest truth...your kid will be much better off having a happy, loving father, even if divorced, instead of having a miserable, lifeless father, who hates his job, commute, city and where his marriage has brought him. I've seen way too many of these types of guys, and it's not only a pathetic site, but it's also a detriment to their children.
If you and your wife can in no way come to some kind of compromise, and you are going to continue being miserable solely for the purpose of fueling your wife's "American dream", then you have some thinking to do.
OP has said several times that his wife isn't "image conscious". Since when is a need for security (even if different from your version of security) about image? And, since when is a desire to be secure a horrible thing worthy of being mocked?
Also, she has compromised a bit. She's willing to change cities, to have the income drop significantly while OP goes back to school, etc. They've even talked about moving to different countires. I think NUF hit the wife's perspective right on the money. If OP's wife doesn't like his plan, then either the plan won't work and he's using wishful thinking or he hasn't worded it in a way that includes her/makes it appealing to her. Either way, the onus is now on him to rework and reword.
Do you people honestly believe that wives are simply there to say, "Ok, honey, whatever you want!" to each whim of the husband's? Because that's really how OP sounds like he did it. "By the way, honey, I don't like work and I want to quit and never work again. This is going to require some sacrifice and you won't get all the things you want out of life, and what do you want anyway? I can't remember. ...What? You don't like that idea?"
Perhaps we're oddballs but in my marriage we talk things over before making any changes, ESPECIALLY in the category of major changes. We don't suddenly come out with a new plan at a moment's notice and expect that immediate change will happen. We don't make changes to the status quo until all parties are at least somewhat satisfied and agreed on a course of action. Turns out, that's what you do in healthy relationships.
I'm loving the sexism in this thread which makes it perfectly appropriate to call the wife a "selfish cow" and defend OP to the degree of saying that he's perfectly right, no matter what. I've seen plenty of other threads on similar topics with just the genders reversed and they don't get this level of vitriol for the non-mustachian spouse, nor do people advocate divorce.
jka468, you forgot to mention that the baby needs a happy mother too....
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You do raise an interesting point. It was never my intention to say "this is my plan now get with it". It was meant to be "here's an idea that I think has merit. Can we talk about it?" I clearly didn't convey that it in the right way andgot a visceral emotional reaction. I'm writing something up that I hope to get some feedback on soon...
Otoh, regardless of how clumsy my presentation was I don't think its appropriate for her to just shut down the conversation. So we both have some egg on our faces I think
I definitely struggle with making my needs and desires known. That "no more mr nice guy book" was an eye opener
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rjg, I think you've come across as very rational and self-aware in all of this. I hope some of the hysterics in this thread aren't getting you down. I'm impressed at your willingness to look at different angles, read books, and investigate alternatives. I've never detected a "my way or the highway" attitude in your postings. On top of that, I think you have a very firm grasp on the realities of the situation, which no doubt makes it difficult when you get an emotional and visceral reaction from your wife.
I have not read "No More Mr. Nice Guy" but based on the title, it sounds like just the right thing. I hope it helps. I obviously don't know what will work in your particular relationship, but if I had to suggest anything, it would be taking a loving but confident/firm stance that not only keeps your own boundaries intact, but also lets your wife know you are a man to be respected (which often also increases attraction and relationship dynamics). Glad to hear that book resonated with you, here's hoping it helps.
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Your wife sounds like a total f'n nightmare. I get away from her as soon as possible.
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Marriages are worth working at-especially once you have a child. Kids are happier in a 2 parent home. Nothing worth having in life comes easy. I would work hard to make your marriage work & if in the end it does not at least you know you did everything possible & will have no regrets. People are able to compromise and turn things around many times. With a new baby you guys are under a huge amount of stress. Take it slow.
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You do raise an interesting point. It was never my intention to say "this is my plan now get with it". It was meant to be "here's an idea that I think has merit. Can we talk about it?" I clearly didn't convey that it in the right way and got a visceral emotional reaction. I'm writing something up that I hope to get some feedback on soon...
Otoh, regardless of how clumsy my presentation was I don't think its appropriate for her to just shut down the conversation. So we both have some egg on our faces I think
I definitely struggle with making my needs and desires known. That "no more mr nice guy book" was an eye opener
I never thought it was your intention to say that, sorry if that was what I implied! But I think from the way you've written things, and your wife's responses, that seems to me what she heard. And no, she's obviously not perfect in this situation either, and I've never said that her response was particularly great. But the name-calling of your wife for having a different idea of how life should be, and by people who don't know her, is out of bounds. As are all the people not involved in your relationship telling you to divorce her. That is really only something you can decide, and making a decision like that with an approximately 4 month old baby is probably not the best time, for both practical reasons (are you really getting enough sleep to make rational decisions?) and emotional (dude, you have a baby together!).
I'm glad people have been able to recommend books and resources which have been helpful, and I really do hope that you and your wife find a compromise which makes both of you happy and fulfilled.
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Your wife sounds like a total f'n nightmare. I get away from her as soon as possible.
If I know now what I did then I woukdnt have married her. I'd also give myself a big punch in the face. But life is a journey and we make imperfect decisions. Now that we have a kid the calculus is not that simple. I met a bunch of people last night who had some pretty traumatic scars from going through divorce as kids.
And frankly I haven't even reached the point of setting boundaries and communicating in a clear non defensive matter. Or have setting up more healthy supports (non financially speaking) outside of our marriage.
If I got a divorce now it would be more like running away because I don't think I've really scratched the surface of open honest communication yet.
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rjg: When I read your latest posts, I keep seeing growth. Major growth. I think this is awesome. It can be one of the hardest things in the world, to focus on how we're causing pain (to ourselves, as well as to others) and to start shifting that, making what other people are doing a distant second matter.
I sure wish my last beloved had read No More Mr Nice Guy and applied it. (I found out about the book months after we'd split up, but I don't think he would have done much with it anyway. He didn't seem particularly motivated. I was, and continue to be in life in general, but one person does not a relationship make!) I see they have an online forum which looks well-used and really good.
re: Divorce talk, bashing, etc, on here. I don't worry about it. I trust 100% that you are completely and fully capable of considering all words and determining for yourself the best path for you and for your guys' child (because only your wife can determine hers, along with your guys' child), which may look like one of any number of scenarios -very likely one none of us here have even imagined yet!
When I was struggling in my relationship, folks here spoke up. I didn't feel they were running my life, or even trying to. My sense is that you, too, have been able to keep this awareness about all comments. In my case, people were giving opinions and perspectives, and I think both the writers and I recognized that it was exactly that: opinion and outside perspective. But me, I found it helpful to see what other people found appalling in what I was describing, and I found it helpful to receive empathy and even outrage on my wearied behalf. I also knew that the only person who would be deciding anything about my relationship, and my life path in general, was me. And I was confident that my MMM friends would be there to support me whether I left my relationship or stayed in it. You will find your way. You and your wife will explore and land. Where, we don't know, but as you continue to take responsibility for your part, and brainstorm and research options, laws, exceptions within laws, creative solutions successfully implemented by other families that struggled, etc, things will come clearer for you. Having patience at this point is a toughie; it's all muscle-building, though.
I bet that ultimately, everyone here wants to see you HAPPY, your wife HAPPY, and your baby HAPPY. And that's absolutely an option, whatever you and your wife decide and act on, conscientiously, along the way.
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I've been reading this thread with interest but not sure whether to weigh in with so many polarising opinions many of them wise, already put in. But your last post is very insightful.
My thoughts would be, in no particular order of importance:
1. Having a newborn for the first time is one of the most stressful life changing experiences - don't make any rash decisions re divorce right now.
2. Your wife is listening in some way - she's agreeable to moving out of NYC, agreeable to you doing higher education, telling people you hate your job etc. Some people have an abreaction to uncomfortable, threatening change (e.g. if you try to move me out of NYC I'll divorce you) then slowly come around, its just how they are.
3. Take the opportunity to move out of NYC since she now seems agreeable - try to make it a lower COL area and get the stash out of the home real-estate as much as possible.
4. Whilst 100% committing your self to making your marriage work, have a "just in case" divorce plan "D" in place. Keep your share and her share of the finances clear and transparent. Research divorce laws where-ever you move to so you know where you stand. Try to get a lower paid job if this will both make you less miserable and be in accordance with plan "D". Hopefully you will not need plan D, and you will feel a bit disloyal with your private thoughts, but do it anyway.
5. Do NOT do a MBA just to get out of your job if you don't want to go where it takes you.
6. It will be much easier for both of you if one of you is not working, and if your wife stays home it you say will be cost neutral. Fine, but let her know you really would like to be on those shoes, and you are making a personal sacrifice to be the working parent. Don't over do it but don't let her just walk into your preferred space and smile.
7. Start on your personal journey of setting boundaries both at work and at home. Honestly as someone who has had to learn this the hard way its not easy at first but it does work. My advice pick one small area at work and at home that you think you can manage to defend i.e. stick to and say no to others. Initially they will ignore you saying no and even get angry at you, since they have grown to expect that you will say yes. As long as what you are defending is totally reasonable in your mind, keep saying no, and eventually they will get it and stop bothering you. Then just keep adding and practicing.
No matter what happens you need to learn this for your self, so maybe this is the most important place for you to start.
Your wife, as Doubledown says, may well see you stepping up to your traditional role and respect you more. She almost certainly won't like it at first. Its possible she really is abusive and therefore will want out once she can't rule the roost, but I think that is less likely, you should give her the benefit of the doubt, and even if it is the case, there is your answer. From the way you've relayed her responses, she is in some sense asking you to lead: if you don't like your job, get another one, yes lets move to… So don't wallow, take action. She may be thinking "he doesn't have the balls to do it" and be surprised (or upset - be ready) if you get started.
8. I am familiar with "The Dreads" going back to work syndrome. Get it over, go back to work, all the time making positive changes/ working your plan. Doubledowns ideas on being the positive employee sound very interesting - I'm going to try some of this myself. Once you are back at work your wife will be much less defensive.
9. Then keep practising, keep talking, and keep moving slowly towards your goal. In effect you are practicing downshifting - move towards working less, less pay. Don't take any steps that lead you away (mo money, mo hours, mo stress). Keep trying to understand your wife's fears/ objections, and keep chipping away.
Good luck, its not hopeless :)
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I'm not encouraging divorce, certainly. But while people always trot out the "scarred from divorce" stories, there are also plenty of "scarred from living in a home where my have an unhealthy relationship" stories.
You haven't really said whether you *want* to stay married, other than citing your kiddo. (Not that that's a completely irrelevant factor in such a decision.) But "staying married for the kid(s)" is rarely what is actually best for the kids.
If you do actually have at least some desire to stay with your wife (not just for your kid's sake), then I think there have been a lot of great suggestions here and you are nowhere near having exhausted the options for making things better. But if you don't want her as a partner, I think it's a lie to tell yourself that your child will be better off if you stay. Sure, kids do better in happy 2 parent homes than in divorce situations, generally, but they key word there is *happy*. Children know when dad doesn't really like mom and mom doesn't respect dad, and they feel the tension and dislike. Putting them through an amicable divorce (another keyword there!) is often far better than putting them through 18 years of parents who wish they were somewhere else.
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Marriages are worth working at-especially once you have a child. Kids are happier in a 2 parent home. Nothing worth having in life comes easy. I would work hard to make your marriage work & if in the end it does not at least you know you did everything possible & will have no regrets. People are able to compromise and turn things around many times. With a new baby you guys are under a huge amount of stress. Take it slow.
This is an extremely misleading thing to say. The average two parent home is a happy home, so it makes sense that children are statistically happier in a two parent home. But that doesn't mean a two parent home is some magical happiness-creating environment simply because two parents are under the same roof.
Parents need to think about what kind of marriage they are modeling for their children. If Daddy is tired, depressed and unhappy from working all day and being beaten down by his wife, and Mommy goes ballistic any time she's confronted with minor emotional discomfort - this is not the kind of cocoon from which an emotionally-healthy butterfly emerges.
If parents aren't capable of modeling a healthy marriage for their children, then they're better off modeling no marriage. At least that way their kids have a chance of developing healthy relationships for themselves.
As one of these "traumatized" kids from a broken home - thank goodness my parents decided to call it quits when I was young, before they had a chance to royally fuck me over. As a result, I was able to go forward and create a happy, healthy marriage for myself - instead of walking in their footsteps and recreating their screwed up marriage.
It's great that the OP wants to work on it. Marriage is worth working at. And his kid is really young, so he's got a couple of years before he and his wife do some serious damage. But people should not feel guilty about getting a divorce when their marriage is F-ed up. They should feel guilty about forcing their child to witness an F-ed up marriage.
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I've witnessed a lot of divorce recently, parents of a certain age whose kids are mostly grown and who clearly gutted it out on their behalf. Every circumstance is different but on whole I think gutting it out was often but not always the better decision. The clearly doomed marriages seemed more like serving a sentence than raising a family. The kids by and large turned out fine, the parents were pretty good at putting the family ahead of their differences most of the time. I don't think there are any ready-made templates, every couple with children has their own set of problems and challenges. (Oh, and I've seen plenty of healthy marriages where the kid did not turn out just fine, so parents that divorce only get to beat themselves up so much if they have given the parenting a good effort, there are no guarantees)
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This is in response to your wife's last day before returning to work. I'm a brand new married woman with the shine still on, but my husband hates his job. He's not quite on your level, but he's getting there. We have a plan of him looking for a new job, slowly but surely, and focusing on running towards something good rather than just from something bad. But it took several weeks for me to truly understand he wasn't just having bad days, and that was with fairly good communication and no kids. But I am our main breadwinner and in a family business, and have thought a lot about going back to work after having a kid someday in the future. I know I want to (at least now), and I know being home everyday would make me crazy, but actually returning to work will be REALLY HARD. Like REALLY REALLY HARD. And I'll probably have about 15 different emotions about it, plus hormones. Even if it's something I know I want to do in the long run. So while her spending that day was big (which you agreed to go do, then silently disagreed with allllll day), and her rant that night wasn't great, I think at least in my head that was "her" day to struggle with her internal battle, and she probably thinks going back to work sucks. Because that change, in the moment, does actually suck. Her returning to work has been the plan for a while now, until (from her perspective) you went crazy and whiny and wanted to leave everything and somehow magically still have money to do things. Based on my hormonal PMSing bad days at work, I'm not sure I'd take what she said that day as gospel truth or hold it against her later. In my relationship, that would be a really bad day for you to be anything other than supportive. And I would definitely say things I didn't mean if greatly irked, which I think she was.
On another note, consider moving from NYC to a lower COLA and finding a lower-stress job over the next year to be a HUGE win! Like, throw yourself a party when that is accomplished win! I think that's tons and tons of change for just one year (especially when you add "have a baby" to that list), and you might relax into that new schedule for a while before broaching any more convos on FI.
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OP, just wanted to say that we all have rough patches, where we think maybe divorce is the answer. And sometimes it is. But (many) other times, what's needed is working on communication skills. Please don't let the fact that so many people here are talking about divorce lead you to think it's inevitable. If you want* to be married - work at being married and give it your all for a good long while before thowing in the towel. Complaining here about your wife is probably tending to inflame the injustices you think are happening, rather than helping you improve your relationship.
*I think even if you don't want to be married, you still owe it to yourself and the vows you made to try, and see if things improve, the sun shines again and you do want to be maried. That's why it's "in good times and in bad."
I think there are a lot of mistakes on both of your part. You've been quiet and repressed your feelings and then let everything spill out at once and were surprised that your wife didn't take it well. You're possibly depressed, which colors your entire life and affects more than you realize (including your wife). Your wife didn't listen calmly and openly and say, let's talk about it, but had a kneejerk fearful reaction.
I use to whitewater kayak and one thing we were taught was to paddle TOWARDS good stuff, not away from bad stuff. By that, my instructors meant if you focused on a spot in the rapids you wanted to avoid, you tended to turn your shoulders (and thus your body) and steer yourself there unwittingly. Instead, you pick the path you want to take down the rapids, and focus on it. So OP, make a concrete detail plan about what you DO want to do, not what you don't want to do. (I'm going to say from the other side of the fence, it was really hard to hear my husband constantly complain about his job but take zero actions to change things. It was very hard to be supportive after a while and feel like I was just an emotional punching bag, as he would constantly talk about how unhappy he was, but not do anything to make life different - like investigate other jobs or consider options. And yes, you have lots of options!) Take action - as you have with applying for jobs - and run towards want you want. IMHO, going to grad school is running away from what you don't want (current job) rather than towards what you want. Similarly, talking about what is frustrating you about your wife may be steering the wrong path through those rapids. Make a concrete plan TO somewhere, that has lots of details and shows you listened to her worries and you've really thought this through and it's not a knee jerk reaction. Try, just try, to focus on understanding her and her story, and see if that helps you through the rapids (e.g. she is uncomfortable with stocks as security, so discuss owning a real estate empire).
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3) This last item is more for commentators and not so much the OP. I vaguely remember that the OP had stated that his wife is not comfortable with the stock market. Please take that info into account when gauging her comfort level and reaction to a potential 4% SWR.
Just a pet peeve of mine on this board. There is no such thing as a 4% SWR. That's a WR. Nothing S about it.
It's actually a historically 95% safe withdrawal rate over 30 years, or HSWR-95/30 for short
Or just, ya know, SWR
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3) This last item is more for commentators and not so much the OP. I vaguely remember that the OP had stated that his wife is not comfortable with the stock market. Please take that info into account when gauging her comfort level and reaction to a potential 4% SWR.
Just a pet peeve of mine on this board. There is no such thing as a 4% SWR. That's a WR. Nothing S about it.
It's actually a historically 95% safe withdrawal rate over 30 years, or HSWR-95/30 for short
Or just, ya know, SWR
That's true. I was thinking more of the ER style 60 year retirement. I forget, but I think this guy was pretty young. Like 20s or 30s, so it'd be at least a 60 year time frame. At that time frame, it's not quite as safe.
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Your wife sounds like a total f'n nightmare. I get away from her as soon as possible.
If I know now what I did then I woukdnt have married her. I'd also give myself a big punch in the face. But life is a journey and we make imperfect decisions. Now that we have a kid the calculus is not that simple. I met a bunch of people last night who had some pretty traumatic scars from going through divorce as kids.
And frankly I haven't even reached the point of setting boundaries and communicating in a clear non defensive matter. Or have setting up more healthy supports (non financially speaking) outside of our marriage.
If I got a divorce now it would be more like running away because I don't think I've really scratched the surface of open honest communication yet.
I've known some people that have said that. They are not happy. I don't know that i've ever heard someone say that, then go on with their marriage and end up happy with that person over time. They don't get happy until they divorce, move on, and find someone else. What's your long term plan? Just suffer through it until your child(ren) is 18+? Then divorce? Or just stay unhappy forever?
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I've read through most of the discussion and my gut reaction? You are also engaging in some hyperbole when it comes to your descriptions of your wife. I've been privy to enough relational conflicts to know that we are only seeing one side of this relationship and that everything he has written is not 100% accurate. This is not to exonerate your wife of any missteps, but I find the descriptions of her as a cow or abusive to be completely out of line. Like someone else so wisely pointed out, they don't care one iota whether your life implodes. It has become internet theater at this point. Don't listen to those posters, mainly because in many respects I think you set them up to respond that way. Be honest with yourself, do you have a tendency to play the victim?
The red flag to me was when you said she spent two hours ranting to you and replaying every thing you have ever done wrong. She was probably out of line that day, but it's not helpful for you to exaggerate what occurred either. I see similar patterns in my own marriage. We all engage in hyperbole to bolster our own victim hood and dissolve ourselves of responsibility.
I personally think moving across the country will not solve your problems. You hate your job whether you are surrounded by skyscrapers or palm trees. You seem fixated on unlocking the equity, but if you create even more stressors on you marriage (and moving across the country with a baby is STRESSFUL), it won't be a net gain.
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I see the word divorce many times in this thread and just want to throw this out there for everyone.
If someone is having relationship issues, especially WRT communication and goal alignment... This needs to be worked on before moving forward.
I've seen many people who get divorced and later remarry back into the exact problems - especially people in unhealthy relationships They didn't correct the underlying issues.
It might be possible to save the marriage by correcting the issues before divorcing. Failing that, at least future relationships will not have the same issues.
Worst possible scenario is divorce and land into the same situation again, only poorer and with a child. What good could that do?
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I'm so sorry to hear that you and your wife are at odds.
Perhaps you can approach this as an invitation to grow closer - get on the same page about dreams and goals. As someone who grew up money poor, I understand her knee jerk reaction. Indeed, it took some time for me heal and trust that I had "enough" and would be safe. (She might need to do some of this work on her own - I know that I did.)
With such intense emotions on both sides (your dislike of your job, wife's worries about poverty, etc.), I think a marriage counselor would be of help. However, be sure to choose well - get lots of recs, interview before committing. Make sure they're comfortable with including the exploration non-traditional/frugal living options, etc. In fact, you might want to look for someone who does marriage counseling around financial planning.
Best of luck!
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Your wife sounds like a total f'n nightmare. I get away from her as soon as possible.
If I know now what I did then I woukdnt have married her. I'd also give myself a big punch in the face. But life is a journey and we make imperfect decisions. Now that we have a kid the calculus is not that simple. I met a bunch of people last night who had some pretty traumatic scars from going through divorce as kids.
And frankly I haven't even reached the point of setting boundaries and communicating in a clear non defensive matter. Or have setting up more healthy supports (non financially speaking) outside of our marriage.
If I got a divorce now it would be more like running away because I don't think I've really scratched the surface of open honest communication yet.
THIS THIS THIS A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.
OP, I'm SO glad to hear you state this exact sentence. Whether you get divorced or not at some point in the future is largely immaterial, IMHO - I think what really matters is that NO MATTER WHAT you and your wife decide to do, whether that is stay together or hit split-city, is that you do so with a clear conscience / heart / mind / etc. To that end, hell fucking yes, scratch the surface of open communication. It would be the height of cowardice to leave her without even trying to get to know the woman, and I mean all the painful nooks and crannies that you both are hiding from one another. Obviously, this will take time... but work through being open and honest with one another about your needs.
Your last few posts are positively exploding with personal growth - this is great! - but that necessarily challenges the prevailing dynamic in your relationship, so it'll take time for things to a reach a new (healthier?) equilibrium. GREAT! Growth!! You're growing! She's growing! Your growth is challenging her and her growth is challenging you! This is awesome!
Keep hammering away on those things that you need to grow up on, whatever they may be. It's NEVER too late to grow up. You're going to be a frightful challenge to your missus because you're not the man she married X years ago, but who wants to stay with a 22 year old / 25 year old / 30 year old forever? Nobody, that's who. You're a maturing being, and the dynamic of the relationship (the living entity of the relationship) will be tested by your growth, and hopefully strengthened (like a crucible or something).
At any rate, keep at it. Growth is good. My one recommendation (aside from 'get counseling x a zillion') is to realize that the 'new you' might be somewhat frightening to the missus, so at least cut her a little slack in getting adjusted to this new dynamic. These things take time.
/rant over
Good luck!
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If I know now what I did then I woukdnt have married her.
I've known some people that have said that. They are not happy. I don't know that i've ever heard someone say that, then go on with their marriage and end up happy with that person over time. They don't get happy until they divorce, move on, and find someone else. What's your long term plan? Just suffer through it until your child(ren) is 18+? Then divorce? Or just stay unhappy forever?
Oooh pick me! I might have said that a handful of years ago, around the birth of our first child. Things got way better! I'm very happy with my marriage now.
Marriage is hard! And the pregnancy/birth of your first child is hard! Work on your well-documented issues and give it time.
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If I know now what I did then I woukdnt have married her.
I've known some people that have said that. They are not happy. I don't know that i've ever heard someone say that, then go on with their marriage and end up happy with that person over time. They don't get happy until they divorce, move on, and find someone else. What's your long term plan? Just suffer through it until your child(ren) is 18+? Then divorce? Or just stay unhappy forever?
Oooh pick me! I might have said that a handful of years ago, around the birth of our first child. Things got way better! I'm very happy with my marriage now.
Marriage is hard! And the pregnancy/birth of your first child is hard! Work on your well-documented issues and give it time.
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that most first-time parents have some version of this thought. I definitely went through a period when I wondered what on earth had possessed me into thinking that having a child with this man was ever a good idea. And the 3-6 months stage was particularly grueling for us, which is why I've been adding my voice to the "back off a bit" crowd.
From the lofty perspective of 9 1/2 months, life is so much easier.
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Wanted to move the discussion away from marriage issues to ask for some advice about work.
Each day I feel myself getting what I think is more depressed. I have cloudy thinking, forget things, can't seem to think straight, feel sad and overwhelmed, etc. I am actually able to complete simple tasks but stuff like planning, managing, negotiating, writing presentations, synthesizing information, learning new technologies that we are using, etc (basically my entire job) is beyond me right now. I am physically present but mentally not.
I know I need to find a good therapist to help cope but that will take some time. In addition my boss told me I will he travelling for this project so my schedule will be up in the air.
Any tips for faking it till I'm able to make it? So far I have tried getting out if the office for fresh air,meditation, etc. While I am able to calm down a little I still am unable to get anything meaningful done (just simple responses to emails)
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Wanted to move the discussion away from marriage issues to ask for some advice about work.
Each day I feel myself getting what I think is more depressed. I have cloudy thinking, forget things, can't seem to think straight, feel sad and overwhelmed, etc. I am actually able to complete simple tasks but stuff like planning, managing, negotiating, writing presentations, synthesizing information, learning new technologies that we are using, etc (basically my entire job) is beyond me right now. I am physically present but mentally not.
I know I need to find a good therapist to help cope but that will take some time. In addition my boss told me I will he travelling for this project so my schedule will be up in the air.
Any tips for faking it till I'm able to make it? So far I have tried getting out if the office for fresh air,meditation, etc. While I am able to calm down a little I still am unable to get anything meaningful done (just simple responses to emails)
Are you getting physical exercise? This is paramount to your well-being and staying healthy. I would argue "out of the office for fresh air" is not enough. I'm a huge advocate for martial sports. I prefer boxing but any martial form is phenomenal for releasing stress, anxiety, and channeling all the testosterone. Some people like yoga or dancing. If that works for you, great! But find a physical activity you can get into. Again, it is imperative to your overall well being and physical exercise is probably the single most important aspect of maintaining your health, mental and physical.
How is your diet? Are you eating healthily? Fresh, natural foods that have not been fried, buttered, heavily salted or otherwise adulterated? When we become stressed we crave easy calories (fucking ice cream for me!) but these are not what will make us feel better. Make sure to have easy, healthy, fast options at hand at all times. A fresh peach or nectarine is delicious and is much better for you than a bag of chips! http://www.reddit.com/r/EatCheapAndHealthy/ might provide some helpful tips too!
Reduce or eliminate all drug and alcohol consumption! (don't remember you talking about either so it's just a general advisement!)
Delegate as much as you can. My guess would be, though, that you are so pre-occupied with what is going on in your home life and don't like this job that making yourself (apparently sub- or unconsciously) unable to do this job is the result. That's not to say your aren't battling depression. But I'd guess that's not all of it.
EDIT: sorry I don't have more recommendations regarding actually working! I work in an environment where 3 out of 4 days I work I am operating alone so everything comes down to me.
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Hi rjg-if you haven't seen your pcp recently you should get a full physical with labs to check for anemia, thyroid problems, b12, d3, electrolytes,etc, you should schedule. ask your pcp or health insurance company for a referral to a counselor. what you describe certainly sounds like symptoms of depression, and it is important to see a pcp to rule out medical causes of depression. in the meantime you can add a multivitamin and fish oil a few days a week, make sure your diet includes enough fat and protein, limit processed food, spend some time in the sun, get enough exercise, limit alcohol/cigarettes/drugs, and be sure you are sleeping enough on a regular schedule. seek out support from friends and/or family. If you have already tried these things, think about talking to a psychiatrist.
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Each day I feel myself getting what I think is more depressed. I have cloudy thinking, forget things, can't seem to think straight, feel sad and overwhelmed, etc. I am actually able to complete simple tasks but stuff like planning, managing, negotiating, writing presentations, synthesizing information, learning new technologies that we are using, etc (basically my entire job) is beyond me right now. I am physically present but mentally not.
This really sounds like it could be a thyroid issue or similar hormone imbalance to me. Talk to your doctor and have him/her run your blood work to check. Also, make sure you're getting plenty of Vitamin D.
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How much sleep are you getting? Postpartum depression happens to men, too.
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I've been struggling a lot at work too. I am waiting for my security clearance to go through so I can start my new job. The start date has been pushed back a month. In the meantime I hate my current job so much. Past few weeks I've snapped at a few people, missed deadlines and been generally grouchy. And guess what? Nobody noticed.
You can't remember stuff because you are suffering from anxiety/depression. Do you have free counselling at work? My agency has a few numbers you can call if you are struggling with home or work problems. You might start feeling better just because time is passing though. Just focus on getting through the bare minimum each day, and don't be so hard on yourself.
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Time for a new wife.
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Time for a new wife.
It's this one has his baby. Telling someone to do something which will damage the future of a 3 month old baby is pretty shitty behaviour.
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Time for a new wife.
It's this one has his baby. Telling someone to do something which will damage the future of a 3 month old baby is pretty shitty behaviour.
My parents divorced when I was ~5-6, and I am glad for them that they did.
I'd say as an infant would be even better, as there wouldn't be a "change."
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I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that most first-time parents have some version of this thought. I definitely went through a period when I wondered what on earth had possessed me into thinking that having a child with this man was ever a good idea. And the 3-6 months stage was particularly grueling for us, which is why I've been adding my voice to the "back off a bit" crowd.
From the lofty perspective of 9 1/2 months, life is so much easier.
You clearly have an agenda in this thread, and it's fairly evident that it comes from some type of victim mentality. Most first time parents who are married do not regret marrying they're significant other. You're projecting your own insecurities about your life and relationship onto others because you most certainly have your own issues with your life choices.
Now, to the OP...
From everything you wrote, you seem like the typical play-by-the-rules good soldier who always had a path based on the expectations of others and the idea of what you're "supposed to do". I would venture to guess that from the time you were a teenager you had a vision of your life planned out like...get good grades in high school ---> go to good college and get good grades ---> Find good job after college and climb the corporate ladder ----> Find "true love" and marry her ----> Buy big house and have it all in big city ----> continue to climb corporate ladder ---> Have kids and work the next 25years and live happily ever after. Now, for some reason, your realizing that this plan wasn't all it was cracked up to be and it's not fulfilling you. You also can now see through the fake smiles of your neighbors and colleagues who followed this same plan and are simply drifting through their days.
I would also venture to guess that you were never very good with dating/women, you have a limited sexual history and this is one of only a couple (maybe the only) serious relationships you ever had. This is relevant because since you clearly have no idea how to communicate your wishes and take charge of your own life, you also probably have no idea how to lead a relationship and your wife sees you as her good little soldier to who is supposed to comply with a plan and shut-up along the ride. Feel free to call me an asshole if I'm completely off, but I don't think I am.
With all that said, NOW is the time to start taking charge of your life and figure out what the hell you want. You have probably spent at least 50% of your life catering to the wishes and paths of other people such as your parents, your bosses, your wife, but you need to take that back. To be honest, your wife is never going to accept this side of you. She married an obedient man, had a plan for you/her and is not going to change that plan to something that doesn't fit her ideal. Her claws will come out and she initially acted like she did because she KNOWS your the kind of man who will take it, but honestly you're the type of guy who most likely will benefit from divorce and you need to think about calling her bluff. If you don't go that route, then all I can say is try not to be too miserable for the rest of your life, because there isn't much hope that your wife is just going to wake up one day and "get" you.
If you do divorce though, get a few things straight...1) Be in your kid's life and support the child. You had a kid, it's part of your responsibility now. If your wife tries to deny you custody out of spite, fight tooth and nail and then realize she was a complete witch to begin with. 2) Focus on self improvement. Get a gym membership, learn how to dress better, pick up a new hobby, learn a language. Do multiple things that add value to who you are as a person. No, just "being yourself" isn't enough , no matter what your mom used to say to you. No one has infallible intrinsic value in spite of what Eat.Pray.Love and Oprah's book club might say. You are what skills you have and what value you can provide to others. Turn yourself into the best "you" possible while enjoying your time on earth. 3) Get a job or fill your time with something that you don't hate, possibly even like (if you can find it). Yes, you may have to take a pay cut, but so be it. You'll be happier in the long run.
Take control of your life man. There are so many men out there these days who simply play by the rules of what they think they're supposed to do, and then they still can't figure out why they're not happy. Do what it takes to make yourself happy. If you let your life pass you by while remaining miserable then it's your own damn fault.
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To be honest, your wife is never going to accept this side of you. She married an obedient man, had a plan for you/her and is not going to change that plan to something that doesn't fit her ideal. Her claws will come out and she initially acted like she did because she KNOWS your the kind of man who will take it, but honestly you're the type of guy who most likely will benefit from divorce and you need to think about calling her bluff. If you don't go that route, then all I can say is try not to be too miserable for the rest of your life, because there isn't much hope that your wife is just going to wake up one day and "get" you.
I think you might be the one with an agenda, not SisterX (who was at least providing her personal background so you could evaluate it for biases/understand the context of her advice).
You flat out make assumptions about whether or not his wife will ultimately agree to his way or a compromise, and why, without knowing his wife.
Let me try this speculation thing too. I look into my crystal ball and I see you're divorced, and likely bitter about how that went and projecting it onto the OP.
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I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that most first-time parents have some version of this thought. I definitely went through a period when I wondered what on earth had possessed me into thinking that having a child with this man was ever a good idea. And the 3-6 months stage was particularly grueling for us, which is why I've been adding my voice to the "back off a bit" crowd.
From the lofty perspective of 9 1/2 months, life is so much easier.
You clearly have an agenda in this thread, and it's fairly evident that it comes from some type of victim mentality. Most first time parents who are married do not regret marrying they're significant other. You're projecting your own insecurities about your life and relationship onto others because you most certainly have your own issues with your life choices.
The only reason I'm not laughing out loud is because I'm at work. Seriously, this is what you think? That I've got a victim mentality because in the midst of sleep deprivation, recovering from a c-section and severe anemia due to said c-section, that a passing thought I had once indicates the true state of my relationship? I said I felt that most parents have this thought because I've heard from quite a few others that they had, at least once, the passing thought that they hated their spouse during the baby stage, and the ones who've said so have remained happily married. If OP and his wife divorce later, that's fine and I'm sure they'll have good reason and that they can hopefully do it in an amicable way so that the kid isn't traumatized. How is trying to argue in favor of caution suddenly a terrible thing on these forums, though? How does that make me a victim?
My husband and I just celebrated our wedding anniversary at the beginning of the month and, honestly, couldn't be happier with each other. Now that we've made it through the roughest stage of babyhood (which wasn't coming home from the hospital, it was having me go back to work at about 3 months) we appreciate each other even more because we've further seen what each other's strengths and weaknesses are. We know each other better and I love him more now than when we met nearly a decade ago.
Part of our frustration with each other in the early baby stage (and I suspect this is true for a lot of couples) was, honestly, the fact that we didn't get to have sex very much. I've hesitated to bring that up in this forum because to each their own and I didn't want other people to feel like they had to discuss it publicly, but not getting the chance to be close to your partner that way can have some pretty damaging effects on a marriage. Perhaps some of that is going on here? I don't know, and I won't ask because that is so completely not my business. Also, because OP did say earlier that he wanted to back off from the relationship "advice" and stick to work advice. So I was trying to respect the boundaries he wanted to set up.
OP, the only work advice I can give is to say, find another job. Any job. Even if it's a lateral move, even if it's within the same company, even if it seems like it might be the same crappy job you have now with different actors. Find anything. Making some kind of move might help break you out of your funk, because at least you won't be sitting still in a job that's eating your soul.
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SisterX,
There is a major difference between being agitated by a spouse during the baby stage (which is normal) and what you previously quoted, in bold, which said "If I know now what I did then I wouldn't have married her". Happy couples don't go around wishing they weren't married to one another; I was reading your own words. As well, there is no need to justify your marriage to me. If you're happy then that's what matters.
That's all I have to say on this.
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To be honest, your wife is never going to accept this side of you. She married an obedient man, had a plan for you/her and is not going to change that plan to something that doesn't fit her ideal. Her claws will come out and she initially acted like she did because she KNOWS your the kind of man who will take it, but honestly you're the type of guy who most likely will benefit from divorce and you need to think about calling her bluff. If you don't go that route, then all I can say is try not to be too miserable for the rest of your life, because there isn't much hope that your wife is just going to wake up one day and "get" you.
I think you might be the one with an agenda, not SisterX (who was at least providing her personal background so you could evaluate it for biases/understand the context of her advice).
You flat out make assumptions about whether or not his wife will ultimately agree to his way or a compromise, and why, without knowing his wife.
Let me try this speculation thing too. I look into my crystal ball and I see you're divorced, and likely bitter about how that went and projecting it onto the OP.
ditto, talk about a leap of judgment! Having a young child, being sleep deprived, and hating one's job are huge stressors. Most therapists say, if in the midst of big changes (and mind and mood-altering stress) don't make big changes. But- I totally think going to a therapist is a good idea. You can use your sick leave and go on company time. Main thing is not to go just once. Might need to go 6 times, once or week. There is therapy that is short term and problem-focused (I can't remember if it's called ACT, or CBT) where the deal is to focus on one particular issue (reduce stress, marital communication, etc).
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To be honest, your wife is never going to accept this side of you. She married an obedient man, had a plan for you/her and is not going to change that plan to something that doesn't fit her ideal. Her claws will come out and she initially acted like she did because she KNOWS your the kind of man who will take it, but honestly you're the type of guy who most likely will benefit from divorce and you need to think about calling her bluff. If you don't go that route, then all I can say is try not to be too miserable for the rest of your life, because there isn't much hope that your wife is just going to wake up one day and "get" you.
I think you might be the one with an agenda, not SisterX (who was at least providing her personal background so you could evaluate it for biases/understand the context of her advice).
You flat out make assumptions about whether or not his wife will ultimately agree to his way or a compromise, and why, without knowing his wife.
Let me try this speculation thing too. I look into my crystal ball and I see you're divorced, and likely bitter about how that went and projecting it onto the OP.
My personal background is just an idiot on the internet, like all of us. OP can take it or leave it, but I like to think I have a good intuition for these situations, because I've seen it unfold too many times. As soon as a women (or man) thinks it's somehow justifiable to mention the D-word, regardless of hormones, or a baby, or stress or anything, then the relationship is half doomed right there. The fact that people can somehow excuse this away is insane to me, but then again we live in a time where marriage is quickly becoming a joke. As well, if the OP was a woman with a man who mentioned divorce, I would be giving advice in the same vein.
And you're completely off about me ;)
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Time for a new wife.
More like time for a new hubby. The current one is very self absorbed and is more interested in his needs than his families:) If the wife came home and said she thought she would be allowed to sleep with other guys and the hubby flipped out, would we all be suggesting she gets a new hubby? After all it is a perfectly reasonable lifestyle choice (you will find a ton of boards that will talk about how unreasonable the hubby is for not being open to it) so he should just accept the new relationship path that she has chosen for him. If the OP didn't want a city girl who wants nice things (or whatever your current life is), he shouldn't have married her. There are a ton of woman out there that don't mind simpler life's. But expecting people to change because you have is very unfair.
Big changes like this require both partners to buy in and often require sacrifices from both sides. It isn't fair for her to expect him to slave away for the next 30 years at a job he hates and it also isn't fair for her to have to cut her lifestyle that she likes in half because he has decided he doesn't want to work anymore. They need to find a middle ground that works for both of them. If that doesn't exist, they are screwed...
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It's funny, my MIL confided, that if she knew what she knew now, she wouldn't have gotten married. This is right before they celebrated their 50th anniversary (and they are still married). People are complex beings who can hold what seem to be two opposing and contradictory thoughts at the same time. I have also thought, my life would have been easier if I didn't (A, B, C). For me, that can be an acknowledgement, of one's fallibility and inability to predict the future. But unless someone develops time machines, doesn't necessarily lead to the corrolary, (if I knew what I knew now, I wouldn't have married her to: now that we ARE married and our lives are interconnected and we are raising a 2 month old, I'm going to divorce you). I mean, that's cold.
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Time for a new wife.
More like time for a new hubby. The current one is very self absorbed and is more interested in his needs than his families:) If the wife came home and said she thought she would be allowed to sleep with other guys and the hubby flipped out, would we all be suggesting she gets a new hubby? After all it is a perfectly reasonable lifestyle choice (you will find a ton of boards that will talk about how unreasonable the hubby is for not being open to it) so he should just accept the new relationship path that she has chosen for him. If the OP didn't want a city girl who wants nice things (or whatever your current life is), he shouldn't have married her. There are a ton of woman out there that don't mind simpler life's. But expecting people to change because you have is very unfair.
Big changes like this require both partners to buy in and often require sacrifices from both sides. It isn't fair for her to expect him to slave away for the next 30 years at a job he hates and it also isn't fair for her to have to cut her lifestyle that she likes in half because he has decided he doesn't want to work anymore. They need to find a middle ground that works for both of them. If that doesn't exist, they are screwed...
I am so sorry I bumped this thread. :-(
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As soon as a women (or man) thinks it's somehow justifiable to mention the D-word, regardless of hormones, or a baby, or stress or anything, then the relationship is half doomed right there.
Oh, really? Obviously I can't say for certain, since I'm not dead yet, but in a massive fit of postpartum anger during a migraine, I thought it justifiable to say to my husband, "Well, a year from now I don't know if we will still be married....." Flash forward four years and we've even had another child, and I can honestly say I have no idea where that came from. I was just so sleep deprived and he did something to really piss me off. I stewed for hours about it, and that's what came out. No, I'm not proud of it. Yes, I apologized. And no, I have never felt the urge to say it again. There's not a single part of me that ever wants to divorce the man I am married to.
Life can certainly throw you curve balls, but I hardly think our marriage is half doomed because of one irrational outburst.
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The things I have said to my DH in 20 years of marriage, oy! I'm sure there have been some real doozys. If in the end you can laugh together it works out. Sometimes you need to let things cool down and allow time for adjustments in thinking.
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The things I have said to my DH in 20 years of marriage, oy! I'm sure there have been some real doozys. If in the end you can laugh together it works out. Sometimes you need to let things cool down and allow time for adjustments in thinking.
Well put! Does anyone in a long-term relationship NOT end up with a few things they wished they could take back, or at least re-phrase? I have yet to meet that person.
Hey, OP - waiting to hear from you and see if there's been any more progress?
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The things I have said to my DH in 20 years of marriage, oy! I'm sure there have been some real doozys. If in the end you can laugh together it works out. Sometimes you need to let things cool down and allow time for adjustments in thinking.
Well put! Does anyone in a long-term relationship NOT end up with a few things they wished they could take back, or at least re-phrase? I have yet to meet that person.
Hey, OP - waiting to hear from you and see if there's been any more progress?
Hmmm..well:
-I found a career coach that I like so I'm going to start working with her. She seems good
-I'm moving forward on MBA programs just to have it in my back pocket.
-I've had a few more job interviews but nothing came of them
-I haven't made any progress on finding a good therapist - after all my less than satisfactory experiences it's hard to be motivated - just haven't had the time or energy. More excited about getting some good tactical help from the career coach honestly.
-that being said, I am more and more convinced that I'm ADHD. Scored very high on a bunch of tests I took
-My wife and I have had a few more conversations about her staying home with our baby full time. I tried to convey the sentiment that "yes, that would be great but I'd like to have that option as well" which devolved back into the whole money/job discussion. She took it as "you don't know how hard it is and you don't respect it " And "you're the breadwinner". She ended up saying "if you can find me a job that pays over 150k/year and doesn't require travel I'll take it and you can stay home". It was clearly a passive/aggressive comment so I just said "ok".
On one hand it makes perfect sense for her to quit and stay home. On the other hand I know I will be jealous and possibly resentful. But I also know that having the alternative plan be "move somewhere cheaper and live off of our savings" is not a good option at this point. I need to come up with something more to make it palatable. At the very least I want to see how this career coaching goes over the next 6 weeks
Later that week she asked if I could manage to stay in my job until I hear back from the MBA programs. So atleast she's getting the message that I find my job intolerable and am not going to last much longer at it. She was thrilled about me hiring a career coach.
So overall I think I'm making progress toward change of some sort.
My wife throws around that 150k salary number a lot. At some point I want to understand where she gets that. Cause I know she doesn't have a grasp on how much we spend, how much that is after taxes, etc. I'd like to have a discussion at some point about what we spend now, what's important and what's not, and alternatives for keeping the important things that doesn't require a 150k salary.
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Progress is good. Definitely show your wife the breakdown of finances and what 150k would do. Till I showed something like that to my husband, he was convinced we had to earn more money. I was able to show him we can take lower paying jobs with better work life balance and still not lose much because the extra money from more salary was going mostly for taxes.
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rjg, this is all super positive. Sounds like communication with the wife is getting better; keep working at it!
My initial reaction, however, was, "what the fuck is a career coach?!" Sounds like a waste of money and useless position. BUT! If it's helping you feel better and making your relationship with your wife better, then it's totally worth some time/money.
Maybe the $150k is a number + specific criteria that she thinks is so outlandish/unattainable that by throwing it at you she puts you in a position where you have to stay the primary earner? But definitely find out why it has to be over $150k. My guess would be that somehow she has been programmed to believe that is how much it costs to live or that to earn less than that with a young family is to be poor/not keeping up. But obviously that's speculation; I'm curious to hear the reality.
How did you respond when she asked if you can stay working until you hear back from the MBA programs? Totally awesome she's starting to get it; these things take time though.
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I understand about the job burnout and all that, and yours news is positive - but . . .
From the financial viewpoint (this is a financial forum after all), if one of you is going to be a SAHP, her pay is so much lower than yours that it makes sense that it would be her. Note I am not advocating this, there are many reasons for other choices. Personally, as much as I loved being home when my baby was little, I was also thrilled to go back to work - people actually spoke in sentences and didn't scream for 3 hours straight. You can only take a baby outside for so long when it is -20C out. Daycare worked really well for us, since there were very few children in our neighbourhood and her daycare friends were friends all through school as well.
Actually, if you do go the daycare route, consider long-term effects - our DD could have gone to good daycare at either of our jobs, and putting her in a local one was a lot more work in terms of scheduling and transport, but it gave her a well- established social network when she started school. She loved daycare, it was much more fun than being stuck at home (except in the summer, and then she was home).
Sounds like your wife is starting to at least think about changes - since you don't know where that $150,000/y is coming from, time to get into details a bit more. I can totally see her wanting you to not travel, baby will be glad to see Daddy after all day with Mommy. And Mommy will be glad to be able to do something without baby (like a shower?).
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This has been a really interesting thread and reading about a lot of experiences that others go through that I haven't is really illuminating.
A couple things to throw on the pile:
1) Health. Another thing to consider is diet. My wife and I switched from a standard american diet to a paleo one (lots of vegetables and some meat) and after 3 weeks or so we noticed a HUGE difference in mental capacity, alertness, energy levels, etc. It was like night and day. Her various allergy problems also went away. I don't think you should drop everything else and just suddenly go Paleo and assume your problems will be solved but it is something to be aware (imo) as you work to improve your health.
2) I'm not sure how you feel about software development, but if you can resharpen your engineering skills its not too hard to get jobs where you work 6 months out of 12 or reduced hours or whatnot. This might not be the case in NYC, but is certainly the case in various tech hubs around the country. I'm personally a big fan of Seattle :) Resharpening that skillset is probably a lot more valuable than an MBA that you don't want and won't use.
3) Others might have mentioned it (I didn't read every post in this thread) but when talking about moving you are also talking about yanking her away from her friends and support group at a bad time. Having to rebuild her friend network was BY FAR the hardest thing my wife had to deal with when we moved. I'm not sure I want to put her through that again even though I could probably retire a couple years earlier if we did. If I was ever really unhappy and didn't feel able to work those few extra years we'd have the discussion at that point.
4) If you have trouble communicating in person, then writing stuff out on paper might be a good method as well. My mom used to do that a lot when she had a whole lot to say and wanted to get her thoughts organized and cohesive. Make sure you triple check it though for tone and such since you can't clarify what you mean with body language since it will just be words on a page. Read it with an eye to what she might react to.
In your shoes if I knew my wife wasn't okay with FIRE and I wanted out, I might structure it like so (adjusted slightly to reflect your circumstances):
1) I'm unhappy and unhealthy and I can't continue like this. I'm miserable at work and am genuinely unhappy. I can't continue to do this indefinitely
2) I want to work on my health, my issues with boundaries, and refocus on what I DO enjoy doing (software development)
3) NYC is an expensive place to do this, and is also a pretty terrible place to raise a kid
4) I'd like to spend a year with the following 3 goals:
A) Get healthy - both diet and exercise
B) Work with a coach on my boundary issues so that when I go back to work I'll be able to do so and still maintain a healthy work/life balance
C) Work on some engineering projects to build a portfolio for the work that I can enter the workforce in a job that I like instead of one that is ruining my life
5) I don't know where we should end up, but I'd love to figure that out together.
I'd suspect that if you did get back into software development and ended up working contracts that had lots of time off but you were still happy, she'd probably be okay with it. Just getting away from NYC will be a huge boost. Also remember: these things take time. I think this entire thread is only like 1-2 months old, it can take 6-12 months or longer to gradually shift my wife's views on things and she isn't going through all the stress of having a recent baby. Its very sudden and very recent, so try to have some patience. It probably feels a lot faster to her than it does to you.
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RJG, I just have a thought about managing your immediate job situation. I wondered when you first mentioned that you were getting interviews but no job offers, whether your feelings about your current job (and your situation in general) are kind of damaging your performance at interview - it's hard to radiate 'I'm an awesome employee' vibes if you're seriously down and/or not that keen on the jobs you're interviewing for anyway. Perhaps part of the solution to surviving the present job and making something positive happen sometime soon might be to look for possible activities at work that feel useful/satisfying and/or that could be valuable to you in the future - whatever that future ends up looking like.
As a random example, if you're already a technical expert but you've let your networking skills get a little rusty, you could start polishing those up. It doesn't really matter if there's no-one in your immediate line of business that you want/need to network with - the practice is useful, and connections can lead to other, really useful connections... Or it could be putting your hand up for different (read: not additional, just different) responsibilities in order to further your understanding of managing budgets (potentially useful for FI?) or starting to learn a European language that will help you to liaise with overseas branches/companies (and could conveniently be useful if you move to Europe). Or whatever. These may be completely irrelevant examples, but I just mean doing ANYTHING that feels like it might be useful to a more personally satisfying future and that will break your current patterns. Even if you only get to do whatever it is for 10 minutes a day.
If it was on a larger scale, this could also come in handy in terms of raising your value/profile at work and making sure you've got the references you need from your current employer when the day comes that you have a successful interview (if another job turns out to be your chosen route). As a bonus, it's much easier to be successful (at interview but also in any other context) if you are building on current successes or progress, regardless of what form that comes in. It doesn't even really matter if it turns out to be directly useful in the long run - just having some interim goals and measurable progress on some kind of scale might be enough to see you through!
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Just wanted to recommend a book I found extremely helpful:
I Don't Know What I Want, But I Know It's Not This: A Step-by-Step Guide to Finding Gratifying Work by Julie Jansen
It helps you analyze what you've liked and didn't like about all the jobs you've had, and determine whether you need a radical change or just to be doing similar work in a different environment. May be some overlap with the job coach you've hired, but a lot cheaper. :)
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A few people have brought up health. In that area I'm actually pretty good. I don't eat processed foods, have egg whites to oat meal for breakfast, fruit, fish, etc. I have maybe 5 beers week.
While I used to work out 6x a week before the baby, I don't have the time anymore so recently I've been walking to and from work (4 miles a day). People always tell me I look 5-10 years younger than I am.
The energy and focus issues seem to only hit when I'm at work- though I tend to be irritable for several hours after work.
I've thought about trying to become more proficient again in software development with an eye toward contracting. Did that whole Stanford university online iOS dev course last year for example.
But I really don't enjoy sitting in front of a computer in the highly focused manner it takes to do development. And I find it annoying that there's always a new platform, framework, language, etc and it's hard to predict which one will be the most in demand. Plus I find learning about those things incredibly boring.
Most of the time my reaction is "who cares". The front end framework world makes my head spin - seems like there's atkeast 10 new ones a week. Much of it just churning out different ways of handling MVC in a browser. Maybe if I found or thought of a project that really inspired me..
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Two reactions to this:
First, this is semi-healthy eating. Beer = grain. Not that great. If you want something with alcohol, wine is better for you, and promotes a good dinner atmosphere. And why egg whites? You are getting rid of the nutritious part, the yolk, the part that has all the nutrients to grow a chick. We don't have a lot of Omega-3 fatty acid sources in our diets, and these are a good one. Egg yolks do not raise blood cholesterol - your liver will make cholesterol if you don't get it in your diet. Fruit (read up on fructose, some is good, too much is not), fish - where is the red meat/dark poultry for your iron supplies and good saturated and mono-unsaturated fats? Fewer carbs, more fats = better insulin control and happier cell membranes - including your neurons (happier brain).
Second, the whole IT area seems to have lost your interest. I would second finding out what you would prefer doing with your working life.
A few people have brought up health. In that area I'm actually pretty good. I don't eat processed foods, have egg whites to oat meal for breakfast, fruit, fish, etc. I have maybe 5 beers week.
The energy and focus issues seem to only hit when I'm at work- though I tend to be irritable for several hours after work.
But I really don't enjoy sitting in front of a computer in the highly focused manner it takes to do development. And I find it annoying that there's always a new platform, framework, language, etc and it's hard to predict which one will be the most in demand. Plus I find learning about those things incredibly boring.
Most of the time my reaction is "who cares". The front end framework world makes my head spin - seems like there's atkeast 10 new ones a week. Much of it just churning out different ways of handling MVC in a browser. Maybe if I found or thought of a project that really inspired me..
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Dear OP,
I read the first 5ish pages then I skipped ahead to the end. I see that you have already taken some steps regarding your career with a career coach. I think that is awesome! They might be able to help you figure out something to do that you can enjoy.
With regard to your original post and subsequent posts, yes you do have enough money to retire early and be financially secure. However, you are married and your wife does not see it that way. Your job as her husband is to help her feel secure with the financial decisions that you guys make as a couple. So, your real issue is how do you make her feel financially secure with the idea of early retirement. Some people like to gloss over the fact that you have a lot of frivolous spending right now, because you already have enough money to retire. Well, again, your wife doesn't see it that way. So, if you want things to change, then you absolutely must lead by example. Period. You will not get far asking others to make compromises and changes to their beliefs/expectations without your own willingness to do the same. For example, you don't take your work to lunch every day? This needs to change. Period. I know you just had a kid, but there are ways to make this easier for yourself. For instance, my fiance and I are in graduate school. When I decided that I believed that we were spending too much money eating out, I began to prep on weekends all of the stuff my fiance and I would need to take salads for lunch during the week. Why did I prep stuff for him too? Because, I was the person that believed things needed to change. Lead by example. Now, we work jointly to prepare lunch at home. It took some time, but I had to take the initiative because I wanted the change.
You made a comment on one of the first 5 pages about how changing your own behavior seemed manipulative. Then you said you could tell your wife that you were making a PBJ sandwich to help pay for the nanny. (Loosely quoting...I don't want to go back and find the exact phrasing). You are correct, phrasing it that way is VERY MANIPULATIVE! However, you should not be making the changes to try to make your wife feel guilty. You are making these changes to lead your family in the direction you believe it needs to go. If you are only willing to make changes or lead by example to guilt others into getting your own way then you will have problems. You should be leading by example to show that you are willing to compromise on some things. Show your wife that you are willing to compromise on getting exactly what you want, i.e. retirement right now. Take the money you save from bring your lunch, cutting back your grocery bill, etc. and invest it. Show her what you are able to do with the extra money. Up until this point you have done a lot of telling but no showing. Lead by example.
Regarding the compromising I mentioned earlier, she mentioned during your initial argument that she would like to live in Europe. I think this is something you should seriously consider... as in, make it happen. First, you are demonstrating to her that you are willing to compromise to fulfill both your dreams. You could continue working while in Europe (her dream), but find a different company to work for where you will be happier (your dream for now). Additionally, this will fulfill aspects of your own dream of early retirement, because vacation and parental leave are much better in the following countries in Europe: The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, France, England. This list may not be comprehensive, but these are the countries that I have looked into personally. (There is a very good chance my fiance and I will end up in Europe, because of the research he does. So, I have looked into this a lot.) A lot of these countries have companies where employees are multilingual so knowing a foreign language is not a necessity. I think the real exception to this is France (at least in the universities). Anyway, based on my own research, this seems like a no-brainer compromise for you and your wife. Additionally, many of these countries have absolute fantastic public education systems. So, you wouldn't necessarily need to put your child in private school which would save you money on that front. For example, I believe it is Denmark that has something called "Forest Kindergarden" or "Outdoor Kindergarden" which I believe is free. Kids can start going as early as 3 years and whatever day the parents want to send them. So, they could go every weekday or just M W F, whatever. They can go all through actual kindergarden. They learn by exploring the natural world around them being supervised, of course. Apparently, the children that do this kindergarden score higher once they attend regular classes. It helps them develop better critical thinking skills. The point is here that you could switch jobs, get more vacation time to spend with family, and fulfill some of your wife's dreams. Having some of her own dreams filled might make her more receptive to the idea of financial independence in a few years.
I wish you and your family the best of luck! Congrats on the new baby btw!! :) And remember, lead by example!
~Stuck in Socal
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You should have started small, like "hey i read on MMM that we can save money by using a bread machine- let's buy a bread machine!" You laid out too much too soon.
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I just power-read 11 pages of comments...
The whole story reminds me a bit of the book Millionaire Next Door, where some kids from well-off backgrounds never learn to manage money because they never had to work for it (or struggle for it). In this case, the RJG's salary is obviously her security, which could also be her lack of struggle. I'm really curious if she graduated and went straight into a high paying job, or if there was that in-between period where she lived off of boxed mac and cheese and struggled to pay rent. There's something about overcoming that adversity early in your career that gives you a sense of power and control when it comes to money.
I wonder if there's ways to empower her to become interested in managing her own money more. It could take some tough love in small doses - like refusing to pay for her hair and nails out of his salary. It could also give her the sense of control that she desires. The fact that she's selling stuff on Ebay is great, but maybe she could take it a step further and have her own checking account for whatever she wants. Just looking at their budget, many of the extras are her expenses.
I would bet that "Baby stuff" has gone up significantly - especially baby clothes. When this thread was started, their baby was probably in onesies. But most of the parents I know start playing dress-up a few months after (and kids clothes can get expensive when the parent insists on name-brand or a certain image). So if the issue isn't addressed, he's going to have a child with the same spending habits!
If moving to LA is still on the table... "keeping up with the Jones" is worse out here than anywhere I've ever lived (or visited) in the US. You could have a beautiful multi-million dollar home in Santa Monica and feel inadequate compared to your neighbors in Beverly Hills, Bel Air, Malibu, etc. Even trying to buy a house is tough because you are competing with ridiculous money - international millionaires/billionaires who are buying in cash, or locals just looking for an extra house for their mother in law. I've heard people who are easily in the $100-200k salary range talk about being middle class. I see a Tesla somewhere in town every day (it's the new "in" item). The culture is very private school driven (I toured Beverly Hills public elementary with a friend who thought it wasn't good enough. It was nicer than some Universities I've been to!) It's one of the things I really don't like about living out here - I look at friends and colleague's spending and think, "how are they doing it?!" Maybe some are earning multi-million a year (I am in the entertainment industry), but for the most part, I think people here are living on the very edge of their means.